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episkopos
Jul 22nd 2014, 11:50 PM
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/jesus-death-penalty-al-mohler-sarah-palin


To what degree are we really following Christ compared to shoe-horning our own beliefs into "our" Christianity?

Boo
Jul 23rd 2014, 09:40 AM
I see that we continue to have a tough time understanding what God-in-the-flesh intended for us to know.

It is rough to take quotes written a couple thousand years ago and know the environment and conversations that were taking place when those certain statements were made. That is why we must use the words written in other places to help us understand the meanings of those phrases that confuse us.

Jesus wants us to love our enemies and help them. He wants us to show love to everyone. He wants us to sell our garments and buy a sword.

How is that for a set of phrases that don't seem to go together?

Do we believe that God would have us stand by peacefully while someone harms our spouse or children because we love that enemy who is doing the harm? Do we really think that, when the bad guy is done harming one son that we should offer the other?

If Jesus can fashion a whip to clear the temple of the money-changers, he obviously understood the effectiveness of an object in one's hand when it comes to convincing people of our sincerity.

Capital punishment for murder precedes the law of Moses. God set that is stone early on - even though He did not have Cain killed.

Jesus never forbid capital punishment, but if we use the story of the woman caught in adultery as if it really was written as part of the book of John, he did not forbid the stoning. He merely answered that the first stone be cast by the person with no sin. Apparently, there was another problem with the way the issue was being handled. One might say that an individual person is not sufficient as the judge to administer the punishment.

If we will take Paul's words as evidence that capital punishment fits in with God's grand design, then we have further evidence that it is not prohibited by God, but it is apparently a function of a government and not of an individual.

Understanding the true nature of Jesus - knowing that He was also God in the flesh - cannot take place through human logic and education. Knowing what God would have us to understand cannot be taught by the world. It must be taught by God Himself, whether he uses another spiritual person, the bible, or the Holy Spirit himself. I find that it sometimes takes all three.

Trying to explain to the world what God would have us know is like building sand castles in a hurricane.

The writer of the article you referenced seems to be looking at a very literal way to use the words in the Bible that same way we use our Chilton's manual to do a brake job on a car. That has never worked well for me.

The bible teaches me about God. It is in getting to know God that my heart changes.

ProDeo
Jul 23rd 2014, 10:09 AM
I think "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek", "being the least" is about solving problems on a personal level.

If someone tries to kill you you may defend yourself, it's good police at times uses force, it's good to have an army to defend when attacked else earth would be full of anarchy.

One exception, if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to deny Jesus or else then choose for or else.

Slug1
Jul 23rd 2014, 10:41 AM
The Bible calls those who God uses to bring His vengeance to the evil doers... Ministers.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 12:49 PM
The Bible calls those who God uses to bring His vengeance to the evil doers... Ministers.

Minister is just an English word meaning to "serve out". This should not mean that ministering in always in regard to followers of Christ. The bible uses language in a non-religious way. The Assyrians were ministering God's wrath on Israel...but this doesn't mean that the Assyrians we followers of God in any way. God uses people. He sets one country against the other. He uses dogs to fight other dogs.

I don't see how it is possible to confuse the ways of this world with the ways of God in Christ. Followers of Christ are to be separate (holy) from this world.

When Paul says the weapons of OUR warfare are spiritual...who does he mean by "our"?

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 12:52 PM
I think "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek", "being the least" is about solving problems on a personal level.

If someone tries to kill you you may defend yourself, it's good police at times uses force, it's good to have an army to defend when attacked else earth would be full of anarchy.

One exception, if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to deny Jesus or else then choose for or else.


This is contradictory and non-sensical. Are you being serious?


I see that we continue to have a tough time understanding what God-in-the-flesh intended for us to know.

It is rough to take quotes written a couple thousand years ago and know the environment and conversations that were taking place when those certain statements were made. That is why we must use the words written in other places to help us understand the meanings of those phrases that confuse us.

Jesus wants us to love our enemies and help them. He wants us to show love to everyone. He wants us to sell our garments and buy a sword.

How is that for a set of phrases that don't seem to go together?

Do we believe that God would have us stand by peacefully while someone harms our spouse or children because we love that enemy who is doing the harm? Do we really think that, when the bad guy is done harming one son that we should offer the other?

If Jesus can fashion a whip to clear the temple of the money-changers, he obviously understood the effectiveness of an object in one's hand when it comes to convincing people of our sincerity.

Capital punishment for murder precedes the law of Moses. God set that is stone early on - even though He did not have Cain killed.

Jesus never forbid capital punishment, but if we use the story of the woman caught in adultery as if it really was written as part of the book of John, he did not forbid the stoning. He merely answered that the first stone be cast by the person with no sin. Apparently, there was another problem with the way the issue was being handled. One might say that an individual person is not sufficient as the judge to administer the punishment.

If we will take Paul's words as evidence that capital punishment fits in with God's grand design, then we have further evidence that it is not prohibited by God, but it is apparently a function of a government and not of an individual.

Understanding the true nature of Jesus - knowing that He was also God in the flesh - cannot take place through human logic and education. Knowing what God would have us to understand cannot be taught by the world. It must be taught by God Himself, whether he uses another spiritual person, the bible, or the Holy Spirit himself. I find that it sometimes takes all three.

Trying to explain to the world what God would have us know is like building sand castles in a hurricane.

The writer of the article you referenced seems to be looking at a very literal way to use the words in the Bible that same way we use our Chilton's manual to do a brake job on a car. That has never worked well for me.

The bible teaches me about God. It is in getting to know God that my heart changes.

You are making complicated something that a child can understand....what are you doing?

Slug1
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:08 PM
Minister is just an English word meaning to "serve out". This should not mean that ministering in always in regard to followers of Christ. The bible uses language in a non-religious way. The Assyrians were ministering God's wrath on Israel...but this doesn't mean that the Assyrians we followers of God in any way. God uses people. He sets one country against the other. He uses dogs to fight other dogs.

I don't see how it is possible to confuse the ways of this world with the ways of God in Christ. Followers of Christ are to be separate (holy) from this world.

When Paul says the weapons of OUR warfare are spiritual...who does he mean by "our"?So are you saying that it is wrong for God to allow a disciple to serve in a police force, military, or in the government?

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:15 PM
So as minister of God if God calls me to massacre a village I can go through the town killing people...and if someone slaps my cheek...I should stop momentarily to offer the other cheek...before continuing the slaughter? And this pleases God?

Are the commands of Jesus like masonic recognition signals to identify one butcher from another?

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:18 PM
So are you saying that it is wrong for God to allow a disciple to serve in a police force, military, or in the government?

There are different ways of serving. Mennonites during the first world war served as stretcher bearers. One can be a medic. Whatever we do we do from mercy and love. Do chaplains bayonet people in the gut? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

A Christian can be a policeman...but he would not form the barrier of silence that protects criminal activity. He would suffer for being a Christian. IF he is truly Christian.

A true Christian would never be elected...not in this world. In the case of Nelson Mandela...the people begged him to lead them. So that removes the blind ambition that causes most (if not all) men to run for election. So there are exceptions. Mr. Mandela served the people who really needed him to make peace.

paidforinfull
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:27 PM
Hey episkopos -

I have a question for you: Would you differentiate between making war for reasons such as greed, power etc, and self-defense, or would you say it is wrong to even defend oneself and one's loved ones?

Yes, war is very wrong, but unfortunately it is a necessary evil when it comes to self-protection. How can we say we love our children if we allow someone to torture and slaughter them in front of our very eyes? (I would certainly not have thought my dad loved me or that he did his God-given duty as my father if he didn't defend me if it was in his power to do so.)

Even God sent people to war in Biblical times (and not always in self-defense either). The God of the OT and the NT is still the same God.

Yes, we should turn the other cheek when people offend us, but it doesn't mean we should not protect our own from death destruction.

Just my :2cents:
Blessings,
B.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:36 PM
Hey episkopos -

I have a question for you: Would you differentiate between making war for reasons such as greed, power etc, and self-defense, or would you say it is wrong to even defend oneself and one's loved ones?

And I have a question for you. Did the Christians that were thrown to the lions in Rome....go down fighting?


Yes, war is very wrong, but unfortunately it is a necessary evil when it comes to self-protection.


When is the last time you waged a war for self-protection? The world polices the world because the world is only concerned with life in this temporal world. Do you think Christians should be more concerned about this life like the world?


How can we say we love our children if we allow someone to torture and slaughter them in front of our very eyes? (I would certainly not think my dad loved me or that he did his God-given duty as my father if he didn't defend me if it was in his power to do so.)

We can intervene by offering ourselves up in order to save others. We "take the bullet" for others. Isn't that what Jesus did?


Even God sent people to war in Biblical times (and not always in self-defense either). The God of the OT and the NT is still the same God.

Jesus has come...


Yes, we should turn the other cheek when people offend us, but it doesn't mean we should not protect our own from death destruction.

So you don't believe in a physical cheek slapping?


Just my :2cents:
Blessings,
B.

Blessings to you! :)

paidforinfull
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:44 PM
And I have a question for you. Did the Christians that were thrown to the lions in Rome....go down fighting?



When is the last time you waged a war for self-protection? The world polices the world because the world is only concerned with life in this temporal world. Do you think Christians should be more concerned about this life like the world?


We can intervene by offering ourselves up in order to save others. We "take the bullet" for others. Isn't that what Jesus did?


Jesus has come...


So you don't believe in a physical cheek slapping?



Blessings to you! :)
I understand what you're saying, epi, and all I can say is that if you can truly stand there and do nothing (if it was within your power to do something) when they're 'throwing you to the lions' you are a much better person than myself. I would probably go down biting and scratching and kicking (this is what women do, sbtw. If I was a man I'd probably throw a few fists: forget about slapping!)

I don't believe it's wrong to defend ourselves, though - but if you feel convicted about it you shouldn't do it.

:)
B.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 01:55 PM
I understand what you're saying, epi, and all I can say is that if you can truly stand there and do nothing (if it was within your power to do something) when they're 'throwing you to the lions' you are a much better person than myself. I would probably go down biting and scratching and kicking (this is what women do, sbtw. If I was a man I'd probably throw a few fists: forget about slapping!)

I don't believe it's wrong to defend ourselves, though - but if you feel convicted about it you shouldn't do it.

:hug:
B.

A person who is good at defending himself will never be persecuted as a Christian. We are not to resist evil...but overcome evil by doing good. Let the world try fighting fire with fire. They will all be burned anyway.

paidforinfull
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:09 PM
A person who is good at defending himself will never be persecuted as a Christian. We are not to resist evil...but overcome evil by doing good. Let the world try fighting fire with fire. They will all be burned anyway.

During the Chaco War between Bolivia and Paraguay the Mennonite immigrants (who do not engage in warfare because of religious reasons) provided the Paraguayan soldiers with supplies and food. Though they didn't fight themselves, they did contribute to the war effort in another way.

So, although we understand this issue differently we as Christians can still stand together and fight evil together (in different ways). By doing God's will, David had blood on his hands. In order to do God's will by building the Temple, Solomon was required not to have blood on his hands.

Maybe God is convicting you about this matter because of what he wants you to do in the future. This doesn't mean that God's not also convicting others that they have to stand up and fight a physical enemy (as well as fighting a spiritual war, of course).

The NT Scriptures don't forbid warfare for self-defense, but they do teach us not to be vindictive, licentious, thieving, murderous, unforgiving, lying, adulterous, covetous, slanderous, etc.

In Him,
B.

PS: Yes, Jesus has come, and Jesus is God.

Slug1
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:25 PM
There are different ways of serving. God don't change E... He does order man to kill man.


Mennonites during the first world war served as stretcher bearers. Was God leading them, or their religion?


One can be a medic. I agree... now, a medic in Special Ops, is a trigger puller too. Men of God, Christians serve in such capacity, I know this for a fact. Is God wrong for leading them into such a position?


Whatever we do we do from mercy and love. Do chaplains bayonet people in the gut? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?When God leads a disciple into such a position, then YES, it would defeat the purpose God has for such a disciple. When God places a disciple into the Infantry where the position does require trigger pulling, would it defeat the purpose God has for such a disciple to serve as an actual "minister" to bring His vengence to the evil doer and stop the evil doer?


A Christian can be a policeman...but he would not form the barrier of silence that protects criminal activity. He would suffer for being a Christian. IF he is truly Christian.Suffer how? Do you know any disciples of Christ who He has serving in law enforcment? Such police officers are the most dedicated because they have the support of God behind them (Joshua 1:9) and they "believe" in what they are doing. They are committed, they honor God in being obedient to Him when they do all that is needed to stop evil.


A true Christian would never be elected...not in this world. Why? If God has purpose for a disciple to be in the government, they have to be elected in.


In the case of Nelson Mandela...the people begged him to lead them. So that removes the blind ambition that causes most (if not all) men to run for election. So there are exceptions. Mr. Mandela served the people who really needed him to make peace.How does this relate to your position on Christians led by God to serve as His ministers and bring His vengeance to evil doers and stop them?

LandShark
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:28 PM
The blog entry was flawed from the start. Palin has made it very clear that her water boarding comment was not to be taken literally, and when one hears it, it is CLEARLY rhetoric. Scripture is clear enough, violence in any form should not be our answer. However, it is also very clear that God had as part of His Torah, judgments for certain sin that INCLUDED death. And the one who performed that judgement was not God, it was the men God ordained to be in those positions. Of course we should turn the other cheek, of course we should love our enemies... but I think Epi has children and there is no chance he sits and watches one get raped or killed, instead, he will defend them with force like anyone else who loves their children and spouse! Violence in that form should be our last resort, but it is a resort. I hope to never need to go there, but I won't watch my family get hurt when I have the means to stop it, and I do have the means!

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:30 PM
During the Chaco War between Bolivia and Paraguay the Mennonite immigrants (who do not engage in warfare because of religious reasons) provided the Paraguayan soldiers with supplies and food. Though they didn't fight themselves, they did contribute to the war effort in another way.

So, although we understand this issue differently we as Christians can still stand together and fight evil together (in different ways). By doing God's will, David had blood on his hands. In order to do God's will by building the Temple, Solomon was required not to have blood on his hands.

Maybe God is convicting you about this matter because of what he wants you to do in the future. This doesn't mean that God's not also convicting others that they have to stand up and fight a physical enemy (as well as fighting a spiritual war, of course).

The NT Scriptures don't forbid warfare for self-defense, but they do teach us not to be vindictive, licentious, thieving, murderous, unforgiving, lying, adulterous, covetous, slanderous, etc.

In Him,
B.

PS: Yes, Jesus has come, and Jesus is God.

I rather think we should be unified in Christ and make the same stand to follow Christ rather than men. Jesus said He was sending us as sheep among wolves. I don't think He meant that we would be having wolves WITHIN the church. Jesus meant the world not the church when referring to wolves. Wolves defend themselves...sheep are led by a shepherd who protects the sheep. The battle belongs to the Lord.

LandShark
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:33 PM
I rather think we should be unified in Christ and make the same stand to follow Christ rather than men. Jesus said He was sending us as sheep among wolves. I don't think He meant that we would be having wolves WITHIN the church. Jesus meant the world not the church when referring to wolves. Wolves defend themselves...sheep are led by a shepherd who protects the sheep. The battle belongs to the Lord.

No, wolves in sheep's clothing is metaphoric to depict those who do not belong to God who look and act like those who are. There are many warnings of false pastors and prophets... even those who THINK they do his work but he "never knew them." They are in the church Epi... they are.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:38 PM
No, wolves in sheep's clothing is metaphoric to depict those who do not belong to God who look and act like those who are. There are many warnings of false pastors and prophets... even those who THINK they do his work but he "never knew them." They are in the church Epi... they are.

Of course they are. But wolves don't see themselves as wolves. They just think they are dangerous sheep who can fight their own battles. Sheep are seen as wimps by wolves. But in their pride they have just exposed themselves. Wise sheep know the wolves better than any wolf.

LandShark
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:41 PM
Of course they are. But wolves don't see themselves as wolves. They just think they are dangerous sheep who can fight their own battles. Sheep are seen as wimps by wolves. But in their pride they have just exposed themselves. Wise sheep know the wolves better than any wolf.

I get that, I was simply saying they are in the church. In the post I responded to you said you didn't think wolves were IN the church, they are. That was my only point.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:43 PM
I get that, I was simply saying they are in the church. In the post I responded to you said you didn't think wolves were IN the church, they are. That was my only point.

So when Jesus said..I send you out as sheep among wolves...He meant the church?

paidforinfull
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:46 PM
I rather think we should be unified in Christ and make the same stand to follow Christ rather than men. Jesus said He was sending us as sheep among wolves. I don't think He meant that we would be having wolves WITHIN the church. Jesus meant the world not the church when referring to wolves. Wolves defend themselves...sheep are led by a shepherd who protects the sheep. The battle belongs to the Lord.

But it now seems to me God is telling some people to fight and others not to. This doesn't mean that one group is right and the other wrong. It simply means that God is telling different people to do different things for His own reasons.

Just imagine how it would be if ALL Christians refused to protect ourselves or go to war when we needed to? (And unfortunately history proves that even Christians often went to war for the wrong reasons, but that's not what we're talking about here.) We will be all be slaughtered, robbed, trampled upon and made so useless that no one will listen to us, that is, if there were any of us left.

No, I am convinced that God is calling some of us to go to war, and others not to. Each one of us must find out what God wants us to do.

And yes, the battle belongs to the Lord. He will give us victory , if we trust in Him. This doesn't mean that we should not engage in battle (when necessary).

Blessings,
B.

LandShark
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:47 PM
So when Jesus said..I send you out as sheep among wolves...He meant the church?

No, you are combining two things. There are OTHER VERSES that state there will be false prophets and pastors... where do you think we might find them Epi, in the church or at WalMart? There will be people saying, "have we not prophesied in your name, cast demons out in your name?" And he answers, "I never knew you!" Again, these people who think they are operating in His authority (name) are NOT going to church?

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:51 PM
No, you are combining two things. There are OTHER VERSES that state there will be false prophets and pastors... where do you think we might find them Epi, in the church or at WalMart? There will be people saying, "have we not prophesied in your name, cast demons out in your name?" And he answers, "I never knew you!" Again, these people who think they are operating in His authority (name) are NOT going to church?

You are not answering the question I asked...

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:56 PM
But it now seems to me God is telling some people to fight and others not to. This doesn't mean that one group is right and the other wrong. It simply means that God is telling different people to do different things for His own reasons.

This double standard allows wolves to come into the sheepfold. Human nature is nasty. Men will kill each other for scraps of meat. We must die to this old creature and become new in Christ. THEN there will be unity. But to allow wolf-like behaviour in the church just brings the church down to the power of men.


Just imagine how it would be if ALL Christians refused to protect ourselves or go to war when we needed to? (And unfortunately history proves that even Christians often went to war for the wrong reasons, but that's not what we're talking about here.) We will be all be slaughtered, robbed, trampled upon and made so useless that no one will listen to us, that is, if there were any of us left.

Are you the head that decides what Christians do...or is Jesus the Head? So what if we all die for Christ. Isn't that the point? Or are we trying to preserve the world in our own power. The battle is the Lord's?


No, I am convinced that God is calling some of us to go to war, and others not to. Each one of us must find out what God wants us to do.

We are all to fight a spiritual battle...not kill people.


And yes, the battle belongs to the Lord. He will give us victory , if we trust in Him. This doesn't mean that we should not engage in battle.

Blessings,
B.

Those who fight with carnal means...are not fighting with spiritual means. You can't serve 2 masters.

LandShark
Jul 23rd 2014, 02:59 PM
You are not answering the question I asked...

This is why I don't interact with you. You made a comment that wolves are not in the church. I shared a thought, you basically agreed but needed to teach me something in the process. I said I get all that, was just showing wolves ARE in the church. You then go BACK to the original verse which I already showed was not all encompassing because there ARE wolves in the church. And when I explained that again, you now claim I am not answering some question. At this point I honestly don't even know what your question is. You make general discussion impossible and not fun... and this forum should at least be fun.

So I will directly answer your question which I have scrolled up to see and then ignore this thread. YES, Matthew 10:16 says metaphorically, "I will send you out LIKE sheep among wolves." However, Epi, that DOES NOT mean there will not be wolves in the church, and in positions of leadership. The world is FULL of wolves and Messiah sent his people out to the world. AND, wolves will make their way into churches and look like sheep. Is this an issue for you? Do you not understand what I have said here? Why do you make people repeat things 3-4 times? It's annoying, I made a comment, you agreed but then still needed to teach me and the result is a wasted 20 minutes because in the end, my comment stands... there are wolves in the church. Have a good day!

paidforinfull
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:00 PM
So when Jesus said..I send you out as sheep among wolves...He meant the church?

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (KJV). This is about 'wolves' in the church.

B.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:03 PM
Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (KJV). This is about 'wolves' in the church.

B.

Exactly. If we paid more attention to ourselves and what we say do and believe...we could eliminate most of the problems in the church. But we always think the problem lies with others.

We should ask...Am I a violent wolf who defends himself?

Or...have I died with Christ and I am now as harmless as a dove?

What does a wolf do when grabbed by the ears? What does a sheep do?

Can we at least be honest about what our true nature is?

paidforinfull
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:10 PM
Exactly. If we paid more attention to ourselves and what we say do and believe...we could eliminate most of the problems in the church. But we always think the problem lies with others.

There's no doubt that the church has been infiltrated by satan's minions, and there are loads of false teachings going around.

However, the fact that we as Christians may defend ourselves when necessary is not a false teaching. There's no Scripture to forbid it, and it doesn't change our 'Christ likeness' when we do.

We really need to differentiate between warring for gain, and going to war to defend ourselves.

It's true: when someone does something bad to us, we, as Christians should 'turn the other cheek': we should not be vindictive, revengeful or unforgiving. It does not mean we should allow our enemies to slaughter us.

B.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:13 PM
There's no doubt that the church has been infiltrated by satan's minions, and there are loads of false teachings going around.

However, the fact that we as Christians may defend ourselves when necessary is not a false teaching. There's no Scripture to forbid it, and it doesn't change our 'Christ likeness' when we do.

We really need to differentiate between warring for gain, and going to war to defend ourselves.

It's true: when someone does something bad to us, we, as Christians should 'turn the other cheek': we should not be vindictive, revengeful or unforgiving. It does not mean we should allow our enemies to slaughter us.

B.

It means that we will be slaughtered as Jesus was...IF we are really Christians.

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:18 PM
There IS another Jesus we can follow...and we can follow that Jesus with our nationalism and sense of justice intact. That is Jesus Barabbas the zealot. He killed the Roman oppressors AND he got off scott free. The people wanted his release. The people chose Barabbas over the "weak and ineffectual" Jesus the son of God. Jesus died as a pitiful lamb. And He tells His followers to follow Him.

But modern Christians have been deceived into following the wrong Jesus...the militant Jesus that gets off scott free for all his murders....for now.

Jesus was seen as a traitor by many...and many modern Christians would see it the same way. Jesus advocated we love our oppressors and pay taxes to the occupiers. A wolf would never obey that.

People don't get the scandal of following Christ...

paidforinfull
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:19 PM
It means that we will be slaughtered as Jesus was...IF we are really Christians.

OK, episkopos - I understand what you're saying, but we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Enjoy your day, and God bless you and yours,
B.
:)

episkopos
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:38 PM
The purpose of this thread is to help the brethren to forsake that which alienates us from the life of God. The truth hurts at first...the truth KILLS at first. A wolf will just snarl bite and accuse thinking he is right. But a true follower of Christ will consider the truth and then forsake his evil ways to come to Christ and be renewed in his ways and his mind.

Resisting the truth only hurts those doing the resisting. God will have His way. People will not.


OK, episkopos - I understand what you're saying, but we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Enjoy your day, and God bless you and yours,
B.
:)

Peace to you! :)

BrianW
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:45 PM
I've decided to make this into a mod note with an add on at the end:


The problems that arise in these kinds of discussions occur when people approach scripture with the idea of validating what they want scripture to say ( and so only accept scripture that seems to agree with their predisposed ideas) instead of taking the whole of scripture into account to discern what it actually says and teaches.
They then accuse those who disagree with them of not following the "real" Jesus and not being "true" Christians while at the same time ignoring the rest of scripture that is presented to them that refutes their self made doctrine. I've seen a -ton- of these kinds of threads and it usually doesn't even consist of a discussion or people trying to reason together and discern --what scripture as a whole-- can teach us on the issue but instead is just people posting at each other.

This is Apologetics and Evangelism so if this thread is going to continue here I want to see people engaged in a scriptural based discussion with reasoned responses and not just ad hominems and pseudo pithy replies that ignore clear scripture.

*

They then accuse those who disagree with them of not following the "real" Jesus and not being "true" Christians
* If I see this happen here again I'll be serving up some coffee. It just won't be tolerated. Those of you who know me know that I do not make statements like this in warning only. I mean what I say and it will happen.

ProDeo
Jul 23rd 2014, 03:56 PM
I think "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek", "being the least" is about solving problems on a personal level.

If someone tries to kill you you may defend yourself, it's good police at times uses force, it's good to have an army to defend when attacked else earth would be full of anarchy.

One exception, if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to deny Jesus or else then choose for or else.


This is contradictory and non-sensical. Are you being serious?
Now I am not :P

But instead tell me what and why my view is non-sensical.

Boo
Jul 24th 2014, 09:57 AM
You are making complicated something that a child can understand....what are you doing?

Obviously there are no children here.

That being the case, I was initiating conversation. Did I mess something up for you?

EarlyCall
Jul 24th 2014, 11:45 AM
So as minister of God if God calls me to massacre a village I can go through the town killing people...and if someone slaps my cheek...I should stop momentarily to offer the other cheek...before continuing the slaughter? And this pleases God?

Are the commands of Jesus like masonic recognition signals to identify one butcher from another?

Well now this is just being silly don't you think?

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 11:50 AM
So as minister of God if God calls me to massacre a village I can go through the town killing people...and if someone slaps my cheek...I should stop momentarily to offer the other cheek...before continuing the slaughter? And this pleases God?

Are the commands of Jesus like masonic recognition signals to identify one butcher from another?Based on this question... you do not understand God's purpose for bringing His vengeance to evil doers.

Also, when God told Joshua to kill all, to include men, women, children, and even the livestock... what would you in that situation?

There is a balance and it appears that you are missing this balance.

Here is a question... when Jesus returns and He and all the saints with Him slaughter all of mankind who are not Christians... how does this fit in with this threads topic and your thoughts? Are you going to turn the other check to those who are fighting against you and Jesus?

EarlyCall
Jul 24th 2014, 11:54 AM
Minister is just an English word meaning to "serve out". This should not mean that ministering in always in regard to followers of Christ. The bible uses language in a non-religious way. The Assyrians were ministering God's wrath on Israel...but this doesn't mean that the Assyrians we followers of God in any way. God uses people. He sets one country against the other. He uses dogs to fight other dogs.

I don't see how it is possible to confuse the ways of this world with the ways of God in Christ. Followers of Christ are to be separate (holy) from this world.

When Paul says the weapons of OUR warfare are spiritual...who does he mean by "our"?

Have you ever gone to a lecture of some sort? Let's say for example you go to hear someone speak on 401Ks. During that time they never mention your company's pension plan nor investing in it. You walk out the door, go home and tell your wife, the only thing we should invest in is a 401K. Your wife sakes you why you think this and you tell her because the speaker you just heard spoke only about 401Ks.

My point is that Paul was speaking of spiritual matters, and since he did not address self-defense nor war, you take it to mean that our only warfare in life is to be spiritual. Where did Paul say that? He was trying to inform people who probably never heard it and never thought about it that we are in fact engaged in spiritual warfare. Since he was speaking of spiritual matters, it would have been silly to also delve into the topic of warfare that the world engages in.

It seems to me that since Paul doesn't mention it, you take it to mean God is against it. I must have missed it and you take it too far I think.

EarlyCall
Jul 24th 2014, 11:56 AM
There are different ways of serving. Mennonites during the first world war served as stretcher bearers. One can be a medic. Whatever we do we do from mercy and love. Do chaplains bayonet people in the gut? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

A Christian can be a policeman...but he would not form the barrier of silence that protects criminal activity. He would suffer for being a Christian. IF he is truly Christian.

A true Christian would never be elected...not in this world. In the case of Nelson Mandela...the people begged him to lead them. So that removes the blind ambition that causes most (if not all) men to run for election. So there are exceptions. Mr. Mandela served the people who really needed him to make peace.

Fair enough, but let's at least understand this is your opinion and nothing more. It has no Biblical basis. Just to be clear.

EarlyCall
Jul 24th 2014, 12:09 PM
And I have a question for you. Did the Christians that were thrown to the lions in Rome....go down fighting?



When is the last time you waged a war for self-protection? The world polices the world because the world is only concerned with life in this temporal world. Do you think Christians should be more concerned about this life like the world?


We can intervene by offering ourselves up in order to save others. We "take the bullet" for others. Isn't that what Jesus did?


Jesus has come...


So you don't believe in a physical cheek slapping?



Blessings to you! :)

You make it sound so clean and so black and white when it never it is. One can take the bullet for someone else? We can offer ourselves up for another?

So you have a gun on you and you come upon a man raping and murdering a seven year old little girl. What? You going to offer to take her place? You going to threaten this guy with your gun to make him stop? He's so high he doesn't even hear you or care, so that isn't going to work. You going to call the cops? They won't get there in time.

You going to pray? For what? For God to rescues the little girl? Why should He do anything about it when you aren't willing to? Use your gun ,kill the bad guy and save the little girl.

Tell me something. Do you remember Abraham taking up arms with the intent to kill if need be, and then going to rescue Lott? Nothing in the Bible even hints God had any problem with that.

But you say now God would have a problem with that. Can you tell me when God got religion and. Hanged His ways?

In the OT, we see countless examples of God not denying the reality of this world He created and put us in. He did not deny that war was a part of our world and in fact engaged in it Himself. But now He has turned from His ways and denies the reality of the world we live in and wants us to deny it too?

When did God change His ways and begin to deny the reality of the world we live in?

Finally, there is a difference when we are being persecuted for the sake of Christ and when we are not.

Ok, well, now finally. I should think that if you believe Christians are to be all about love and forgiveness, then surely you would be in favor of NOT putting in jail the man who rapes and murders a little seven year old girl. You can't possibly be in favor of putting such a man in jail because the act of putting someone in jail is NOT an act of love nor of forgiveness.

Oh, and please don't try to throw that back in my face and tell me the police will handle it, the world will deal with it but we as Christians should not. I don't care one bit about it. I said you personally cannot be in favor of putting such a man in jail. No, you as a. Hiragana, with your beliefs, must necessarily be in favor of letting the man go with a God bless you, a hug and a reminder of how much you love them and forgive them and are showing it to them by letting them go.

When we do not have th wisdom to understand that we deal with the reality of this world and the reality of spiritual,things, we tend to gravitate towards one or the other and get all confused about the whole of it.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 12:42 PM
Based on this question... you do not understand God's purpose for bringing His vengeance to evil doers.

Also, when God told Joshua to kill all, to include men, women, children, and even the livestock... what would you in that situation?

There is a balance and it appears that you are missing this balance.

Here is a question... when Jesus returns and He and all the saints with Him slaughter all of mankind who are not Christians... how does this fit in with this threads topic and your thoughts? Are you going to turn the other check to those who are fighting against you and Jesus?

The mission of the church is the very mission of Christ in the world. We are to go out and make disciples in every nation. We are to save people even at the cost of our own lives. We are to be ambassadors of Christ and His kingdom in a world that doesn't know Him. We are ministers of reconciliation to God. We are not ministers of the wrath of God. When the day of wrath comes we will accompany Christ who will punish evil in the world. The battle belongs to the Lord.

BrianW
Jul 24th 2014, 12:47 PM
Thread moved to Bible Chat.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 12:49 PM
You make it sound so clean and so black and white when it never it is. One can take the bullet for someone else? We can offer ourselves up for another?

So you have a gun on you and you come upon a man raping and murdering a seven year old little girl. What? You going to offer to take her place? You going to threaten this guy with your gun to make him stop? He's so high he doesn't even hear you or care, so that isn't going to work. You going to call the cops? They won't get there in time.

You going to pray? For what? For God to rescues the little girl? Why should He do anything about it when you aren't willing to? Use your gun ,kill the bad guy and save the little girl.

Tell me something. Do you remember Abraham taking up arms with the intent to kill if need be, and then going to rescue Lott? Nothing in the Bible even hints God had any problem with that.

But you say now God would have a problem with that. Can you tell me when God got religion and. Hanged His ways?

In the OT, we see countless examples of God not denying the reality of this world He created and put us in. He did not deny that war was a part of our world and in fact engaged in it Himself. But now He has turned from His ways and denies the reality of the world we live in and wants us to deny it too?

When did God change His ways and begin to deny the reality of the world we live in?

Finally, there is a difference when we are being persecuted for the sake of Christ and when we are not.

Ok, well, now finally. I should think that if you believe Christians are to be all about love and forgiveness, then surely you would be in favor of NOT putting in jail the man who rapes and murders a little seven year old girl. You can't possibly be in favor of putting such a man in jail because the act of putting someone in jail is NOT an act of love nor of forgiveness.

Oh, and please don't try to throw that back in my face and tell me the police will handle it, the world will deal with it but we as Christians should not. I don't care one bit about it. I said you personally cannot be in favor of putting such a man in jail. No, you as a. Hiragana, with your beliefs, must necessarily be in favor of letting the man go with a God bless you, a hug and a reminder of how much you love them and forgive them and are showing it to them by letting them go.

When we do not have th wisdom to understand that we deal with the reality of this world and the reality of spiritual,things, we tend to gravitate towards one or the other and get all confused about the whole of it.


We are not meant to change the message of Christ...His message is meant to change us!

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 01:12 PM
The mission of the church is the very mission of Christ in the world. We are to go out and make disciples in every nation. We are to save people even at the cost of our own lives. We are to be ambassadors of Christ and His kingdom in a world that doesn't know Him. We are ministers of reconciliation to God. We are not ministers of the wrath of God. When the day of wrath comes we will accompany Christ who will punish evil in the world. The battle belongs to the Lord.Amen, I agree. The Battle does belong to the Lord and He's used mankind to do such battle and still does... so what is wrong when a Christian is in obedience to God and He has them serving Him in the military, any sort of police force, or in the government?

Have you watched the movie, Courageous? If so... what are your thoughts concerning police who are Christian as they bring God's wrath upon evil doers?

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 01:12 PM
The mission of the church is the very mission of Christ in the world. We are to go out and make disciples in every nation. We are to save people even at the cost of our own lives.

A disciple is a student, not a convert. We are to go out and LIVE in such a way that the world sees Christ in us, and when they do AND are drawn by God (John 6:44), we are to teach. God saves, we do not save.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 01:19 PM
A disciple is a student, not a convert. We are to go out and LIVE in such a way that the world sees Christ in us, and when they do AND are drawn by God (John 6:44), we are to teach. God saves, we do not save.

1Co_9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Christ indwells the ambassador for Christ. Life begets life.

EarlyCall
Jul 24th 2014, 01:21 PM
We are not meant to change the message of Christ...His message is meant to change us!

Really? That's it? You've just told me more than you intended by what you didn't say than by what you did say.

BrianW
Jul 24th 2014, 01:26 PM
We are not meant to change the message of Christ...His message is meant to change us!

That is a true statement however it doesn't address the post that you quoted at all. You might as well of said "Red is a color!" It would have had the same contextual impact.

You see, the problem you have is that you take a stance that is directly at odds with the whole of scripture in context and so when people bring up valid points you have no way to answer them from a truly biblical standpoint. If you truly believe that a Christian is directed by Christ to lead a complete and total pacifist life --Born Again = Pacifist-- then you should be able to show that you have a firm biblically based foundation for that belief. Posting a blog post in which the author of it completely misses the context and correct interpretation of some of the scripture she uses for reference and also decries others for inconsistent application of Jesus’ teachings when she herself is doing the exact same thing isn't really helping you to make your case.

Christians should never have a "Heck yeah, bombs away kill kill kill!!!!!" attitude or approach to any and every situation or conflict. Those who do have that attitude need to get saved. Seriously. On the other hand those who take a complete pacifist attitude and say it must be applied to any and every situation or conflict need to do a bit more studying of scripture. And they also need to stop trying to tell others that defend their family or country that Jesus isn't informing their Christianity. Jesus is God and God doesn't change. They need to learn that. Seriously.

Can you show that you have a biblically based foundation for your belief and stance? The title of this thread is a very bold statement and question. I wonder, can you answer it yourself?

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 01:33 PM
1Co_9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Christ indwells the ambassador for Christ. Life begets life.

It is not literal in the sense you interpret it. I can't cause the cessation of decay and death in ANYONE. I can share Christ with somebody who was DRAWN BY THE FATHER (John 6:44) but I can't perfect anyone, make them incorruptible, remove them from being exposed to the abominations within our society, and I can't make the lines around their eyes go away, I can't make their aging knees stop hurting, I can't do anything... the Spirit can. If you think you can save people, have at it. But we are called to be teachers.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 01:38 PM
That is a true statement however it doesn't address the post that you quoted at all. You might as well of said "Red is a color!" It would have had the same contextual impact.

Jesus Christ trumps all other interpretations to the bible. If we go outside of Jesus for our interpretations...then we are no longer covered by grace. So we must be followers of our king and saviour and not try interpreting the bible by ourselves.


You see, the problem you have is that you take a stance that is directly at odds with the whole of scripture in context and so when people bring up valid points you have no way to answer them from a truly biblical standpoint.


We are not to follow our interpretation of the bible...we are to follow the actual person of Jesus Christ. Men have used the bible to make the crusades and the inquisition. The bible tells us of many things. But men must not privately interpret the bible. It says so in the bible.



If you truly believe that a Christian is directed by Christ to lead a complete and total pacifist life --Born Again = Pacifist-- then you should be able to show that you have a firm biblically based foundation for that belief.

We are to follow Christ by the Spirit. That is very specific. We are not to follow the world and have our allegiance with anything in this world...including our own families and lives. All is surrendered to Christ. Jesus came to save the world...not judge it. We are either a part of what Jesus is doing...as He did...or else we are not just IN the world but also OF the world. We are called to be as Jesus Christ...a harmless sheep that holds out an eternal life.



Posting a blog post in which the author of it completely misses the context and correct interpretation of some of the scripture she uses for reference and also decries others for inconsistent application of Jesus’ teachings when she herself is doing the exact same thing isn't really helping you to make your case.

I thought that the wording of the title was useful to make us ponder how much we do for Christ is actually OF Christ.


Christians should never have a "Heck yeah, bombs away kill kill kill!!!!!" attitude or approach to to any and every situation or conflict. Those who do have that attitude need to get saved. Seriously. On the other hand those who take a complete pacifist attitude and say i must be applied to any and every situation or conflict need to do a bit more studying of scripture. And they also need to stop trying to tell others that defend their family or country that Jesus isn't informing their Christianity. Jesus is God and God doesn't change. They need to learn that. Seriously.

The time for Jesus to wreak God's wrath upon the earth is not yet come. So we must redouble our effort to preach the gospel that as many as possible be saved. That is our commission from the Lord. We are to bring people to God...not kill them. Jesus is very clear on the type of love we are to express...loving our enemies means we are willing to die for them...not kill them.

Are nations really making disciples of other nations when they go to war with them?

One must see a distinction between the kingdom of God and the world. The kingdom of God is love joy and PEACE in the Spirit. If I am called a "Pacifist" because I walk in the Spirit...then so be it. The peace of God is not less than the peace of this world...it is far greater. We are to be as wise as serpents...but also as HARMLESS as doves.

Mat_10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

BrianW
Jul 24th 2014, 01:56 PM
So I take it from your answer that you cannot answer from a firm biblically based foundation you instead take the parts from scripture that will help you believe what you wish and ignore the rest. Got it.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 02:01 PM
So I take it from your answer that you cannot answer from a firm biblically based foundation you instead take the parts from scripture that will help you believe what you wish and ignore the rest. Got it.

Jesus says WE are to be as harmless as doves. The rest of the bible does not take anything from what Jesus says WE should be.

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 02:10 PM
Jesus says WE are to be as harmless as doves. The rest of the bible does not take anything from what Jesus says WE should be.

Epi, "I send you forth" is a statement by Messiah that is related to the Great Commission. In other words, he will send us forth to teach the good news and we are to go about THAT harmless like doves. We HAVE TO be soft, we can't be forceful, force is HERESY! Does that mean that when somebody breaks into your home and rapes your wife you stand there and watch? I don't think so, most people don't, I don't think you would... I can't stand there and watch my family be damaged by evil and if I have to answer for that before God, I will. Does that mean I SEEK to do harm? Absolutely not!!! But in a defensive situation I will act, as a last resort, but I will act.

BrianW
Jul 24th 2014, 02:19 PM
Jesus says WE are to be as harmless as doves. The rest of the bible does not take anything from what Jesus says WE should be.

Yes, He did say that. Yet again though you ignore context and wish to cherry pick things in an attempt to substantiate your cut & paste doctrine.

I don't want you to think I'm "Picking" on you but you started the thread. You intended to make a bold statement and I'm challenging you to back that statement up with a firm biblical foundation. Instead you seem to say that only Jesus words in red are to be used and the rest of scripture can be discounted.

Brother, I'm trying to show you that -all- of scripture is God's word. All of it is to be used for our edification and rebuke.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 02:26 PM
Jesus says WE are to be as harmless as doves. The rest of the bible does not take anything from what Jesus says WE should be.Do you know what a dove will do when it is attacked and what it will do in defence of itself?

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 02:30 PM
Yes, He did say that. Yet again though you ignore context and wish to cherry pick things in an attempt to substantiate your cut & paste doctrine.

I don't want you to think I'm "Picking" on you but you started the thread. You intended to make a bold statement and I'm challenging you to back that statement up with a firm biblical foundation. Instead you seem to say that only Jesus words in red are to be used and the rest of scripture can be discounted.

Brother, I'm trying to show you that -all- of scripture is God's word. All of it is to be used for our edification and rebuke.

I agree that we must see the message of God throughout all the scriptures. But we must also be careful...conversely...to not lose the message in the panoply of scriptures...like not seeing the tree for the forest.

Jesus said..

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Our response... Yes Lord.

Jesus says be as sheep among wolves and as harmless as doves...

Our response: Yes Lord.

God says MY strength is made perfect in your WEAKNESS!

Our response: Yes Lord.

Then God can fill us with HIS strength and power so that OUR weapons are spiritual.

So we can either be strong in ourselves OR we can obey the Lord and put on HIS strength. That is what we must decide.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 02:33 PM
We are called to obey the Lord...not to reason within ourselves. His ways are higher than our own. We can submit to His ways or we can follow our own reasoning.

A Christian does not fight the way a worldly person fights....a Christian fights by the Spirit. Why do we see so little spiritual power in the church today? People are still reasoning and relying on their own strength to solve their problems.

The battle belongs to the Lord. We are to rest in Him.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 02:37 PM
We are called to obey the Lord...not to reason within ourselves. His ways are higher than our own. We can submit to His ways or we can follow our own reasoning.

A Christian does not fight the way a worldly person fights....a Christian fights by the Spirit. Why do we see so little spiritual power in the church today? People are still reasoning and relying on their own strength to solve their problems.Interesting how you say this... have you ever been on a battle field and see God doing miracles for and through soldiers who are Christians?

I have.

While I was still in the Infantry, I was also an elder in the church God sent me... there was no lack of power and as an elder, anointing others in oil and laying on of hands... God healed, cured, ministered to, gave words of knowledge... often.

edit... I was there in/on the battle fields praying with my soldiers, holding services behind our Bradleys with the men. Those with no belief in Jesus, were witnessed to and Bible given out to the very men in my platoon.

If God will not have a Christian serving in such positions... then how does He reach those who are on a battle field?

Chaplians? Sure... but during the battle, praying for those where the bullets are flying? Not very likely... but a Christian in the very spot a soldier is pulling the trigger... that is what God does with Christians who are obedient to Him.

And yes... we also listen to Christians like you who say we are wrong for our obedience because you isolate only scriptures that fit your position.

Well, I was fighting wars over 21 years as an Infantryman and God was with me and I shined Jesus' light on any battlefield I found myself. And you better believe I was very effective in pulling that trigger and I've killed plenty... yet, God was still using me and I was obedient as I witnessed to others, prayer for others, used by God to heal others, etc...

Open your eyes E...

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 02:38 PM
Why do we see so little spiritual power in the church today? People are still reasoning and relying on their own strength to solve their problems.

Perhaps, but the main reason, not to sidetrack this thread, is we are not echad, we are not unified. You read Acts and you see mighty things happening and what we see is NOT that they agreed on every detail, but that they saw within themselves a bigger picture that involved the Kingdom and on that they remained unified. We are not... we are all over the place when it comes to how we view the Kingdom and we divide over those differences. When we can put down those petty items that divide us, and grab a hold of the bigger picture, I think we'll see a revival, a restoration, and acts of the Spirit in a great scale.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 02:46 PM
Interesting how you say this... have you ever been on a battle field and see God doing miracles for and through soldiers who are Christians?

I have.

While I was still in the Infantry, I was also an elder in the church God sent me... there was no lack of power and as an elder, anointing others in oil and laying on of hands... God healed, cured, ministered to, gave words of knowledge... often.

edit... I was there in/on the battle fields praying with my soldiers, holding services behind our Bradleys with the men. Those with no belief in Jesus, were witnessed to and Bible given out to the very men in my platoon.

If God will not have a Christian serving in such positions... then how does He reach those who are on a battle field?

Chaplians? Sure... but during the battle, praying for those where the bullets are flying? Not very likely... but a Christian in the very spot a soldier is pulling the trigger... that is what God does with Christians who are obedient to Him.

And yes... we also listen to Christians like you who say we are wrong for our obedience :)

So how many Muslim fighters did you lead to Christ? How was the love for one's enemy understood by those shooting at you? By return fire???

During the Iraq war there were radical Christians who sought to make peace with the "enemy". Some were captured and sentenced to die. They were freed because they were there in peace. I forget the name of the group. But Christians of THAT type are so few in the world that there is barely even a footnote for them.

Muslim fighters believe that those who die killing the enemy are "martyrs". Do you believe that soldiers from the west are also martyrs for Christ?

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 02:53 PM
Muslim extremists use bullets and bombs to maim and kill. Is that the case for Christians? We can emulate Islam and the carnal religious mind and respond the same way?

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 02:55 PM
So how many Muslim fighters did you lead to Christ? How was the love for one's enemy understood by those shooting at you? By return fire???When a person is pulling the trigger and their bullets are flying at me, that is not a time to witness. It is a time to kill an evil doer.

There were many Iraqis I did speak with about Jesus when we were in a position of discussion. Even my interpreter was Christian and he kept warning me that they could kill us simply for our faith. I just told him to keep interpreting because i didn't care if they killed me for that reason.

Evil doers shooting at me isn't about them persecuting me as they attempt to kill me. I would triumph over them, always, I never lost any battles and I never had any of my men seriously wounded, minor wounds but back into the mix in days or a week or so. I know God was with me (Joshua 1:9) and that He was not with the evil doers.



During the Iraq war there were radical Christians who sought to make peace with the "enemy". Some were captured and sentenced to die. They were freed because they were there in peace. I forget the name of the group. But Christians of THAT type are so few in the world that there is barely even a footnote for them.As I said in the edit... in OBEDIENCE we are to do and be where God puts us. He put me in the Infanty and I was in a position to witness to those who I was able to.

Evil doers however... I killed.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 02:57 PM
Muslim extremists use bullets and bombs to maim and kill. This is why they are called... EVIL doers as they murder. They follow a religion, not God.

They MURDER for their religion, murder is a sin.

They are KILLED because they are evil doers... killing is not even a sin in accordance of God's Word.

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 03:00 PM
Muslim extremists use bullets and bombs to maim and kill. Is that the case for Christians? We can emulate Islam and the carnal religious mind and respond the same way?

Nobody disputes that. What we are saying is THAT offensive action is an abomination, but defending your home or family is NOT the same thing.

BrianW
Jul 24th 2014, 03:09 PM
I agree that we must see the message of God throughout all the scriptures. But we must also be careful...conversely...to not lose the message in the panoply of scriptures...like not seeing the tree for the forest.

This is nothing but a cop out brother. I love you man, I really do, but you have this bad habit of cherry picking what supports your words and ignoring the rest of scripture that can lead us to God's word.

little watchman
Jul 24th 2014, 03:15 PM
Yes, He did say that. Yet again though you ignore context and wish to cherry pick things in an attempt to substantiate your cut & paste doctrine. ... and I'm challenging you to back that statement up with a firm biblical foundation. Instead you seem to say that only Jesus words in red are to be used and the rest of scripture can be discounted.

I'm chiming in on behalf of episkopos here. This forum is not a good place for exploring the basis of doctrines that rest on the whole counsel of scripture. On my desk right now is John Howard Yoder's The Politics of Jesus, and about half the book is dedicated to Biblical exegesis. There are thicker books that examine the role of violence under the Old Covenant and still support a kind of pacifism. (Greg Boyd is currently writing one.) We all "cherry pick" things on this forum because there isn't room to examine the whole counsel of scripture, and if we did, our thoughts could probably fill a book.

I think pacifism is a hard teaching of Jesus, and to those who don't see it I think Jesus might say, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given" (Matthew 19:11).

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 03:24 PM
I think pacifism is a hard teaching of Jesus, and to those who don't see it I think Jesus might say, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given" (Matthew 19:11).

I agree that the basic message is pacifism. However, I also believe we have a right to defend. God does not change, He doesn't make an "eternal proclamation" in the OT and then come up with something else later. God does not change.

So I have to ask, because I have said this three times now and am starting to think that either nobody reads my posts or only I see them and there is a conspiracy against me. :) You walk into your home, your wife is being raped, your husband is being tortured, your child is being abused.... question, do you stand there and watch or defend them?

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 03:24 PM
I'm chiming in on behalf of episkopos here. This forum is not a good place for exploring the basis of doctrines that rest on the whole counsel of scripture. On my desk right now is John Howard Yoder's The Politics of Jesus, and about half the book is dedicated to Biblical exegesis. There are thicker books that examine the role of violence under the Old Covenant and still support a kind of pacifism. (Greg Boyd is currently writing one.) We all "cherry pick" things on this forum because there isn't room to examine the whole counsel of scripture, and if we did, our thoughts could probably fill a book.

I think pacifism is a hard teaching of Jesus, and to those who don't see it I think Jesus might say, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given" (Matthew 19:11).

Most people will not find the narrow way..it is too difficult to trust God to THAT extent. We are not to walk in our own power, strength and reasoning...but to walk in God's power.

Peace to you..

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 03:26 PM
This is nothing but a cop out brother. I love you man, I really do, but you have this bad habit of cherry picking what supports your words and ignoring the rest of scripture that can lead us to God's word.

Following the direct commands of Jesus Christ is not cherry picking. IGNORING the clear commands of Christ is indeed cherry picking. But of all the verses to ignore I would think the commands of Jesus are the last ones we should choose to ignore.

little watchman
Jul 24th 2014, 03:27 PM
So I have to ask, because I have said this three times now and am starting to think that either nobody reads my posts or only I see them and there is a conspiracy against me. :) You walk into your home, your wife is being raped, your husband is being tortured, your child is being abused.... question, do you stand there and watch or defend them?

I would probably get very physical in restaining the attackers, and I might even kill them. But if I kill them in self-defence, I still think it is a sin, and may God forgive me for it.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 03:27 PM
I'm chiming in on behalf of episkopos here. This forum is not a good place for exploring the basis of doctrines that rest on the whole counsel of scripture. On my desk right now is John Howard Yoder's The Politics of Jesus, and about half the book is dedicated to Biblical exegesis. There are thicker books that examine the role of violence under the Old Covenant and still support a kind of pacifism. (Greg Boyd is currently writing one.) We all "cherry pick" things on this forum because there isn't room to examine the whole counsel of scripture, and if we did, our thoughts could probably fill a book.

I think pacifism is a hard teaching of Jesus, and to those who don't see it I think Jesus might say, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given" (Matthew 19:11).There is absolutely nothing wrong with a pacifistic life. The problem is calling those who God is using in ways that a pacifist doesn't agree with... wrong.

Islamic terrorist being compared to ministers of God in this thread by the OP's posts... so we have murderers and we have those who God will use to kill the murderes and both are being placed on the same level. So from this point, the whole topic is not in alignment with anything God shows us in the Bible. He don't place murders on the field as an equal with those who He uses to kill the murderers and put a stop to their evil actions. It's the way God has designated because He's made it clear in His Word that killing is NOT a sin. He's done it, He has man do it... killing is nothing but a tool God uses to see His will done and evil stopped and YES, there are Christians who He's placed in a postion to be His ministers under this capacity.

So when E says this:


Originally Posted by episkoposhttp://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=3144562#post3144562)Muslim extremists use bullets and bombs to maim and kill.
This very statement is in error... because etremists don't maim and kill... the accurate account for theeir actions are to maim and MURDER.

So, for those who kill them are NOT murderers and thus, are not sinning.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 03:28 PM
Most people will not find the narrow way..it is too difficult to trust God to THAT extent. We are not to walk in our own power, strength and reasoning...

Peace to you..E... killing does not remove a person from the narrow road because killing is not a sin.

Murder is.

Interesting how you say this... have you ever been on a battle field and see God doing miracles for and through soldiers who are Christians?

I have.



but to walk in God's power.
While I was still in the Infantry, I was also an elder in the church God sent me... there was no lack of power and as an elder, anointing others in oil and laying on of hands... God healed, cured, ministered to, gave words of knowledge... often.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 03:29 PM
The way of Christ is not pacifism....it is by the power of the Spirit...not the flesh.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 03:33 PM
The way of Christ is not pacifism....it is by the power of the Spirit...not the flesh.So when a Christian is a soldier or a poilceman and an evil doer is shooting at them, what are they to do?

That evil doer is the one "acting" in the flesh as their actions are about murder which is a sin. ANY sin is fleshly in some way but killing is NOT a sin, so it is NOT acting in the flesh to kill.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 03:37 PM
E... killing does not remove a person from the narrow road because killing is not a sin.

Murder is.

Interesting how you say this... have you ever been on a battle field and see God doing miracles for and through soldiers who are Christians?

I have.



While I was still in the Infantry, I was also an elder in the church God sent me... there was no lack of power and as an elder, anointing others in oil and laying on of hands... God healed, cured, ministered to, gave words of knowledge... often.

My brother...the gifts of God are gifts. Our gifts do not justify our actions. How many fallen ministers had to be jailed and shamed before they learned that. I also learned this lesson the hard way. We are not judged by our gifts...but by our actions.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 03:39 PM
My brother...the gifts of God are gifts. Our gifts do not justify our actions. How many fallen ministers had to be jailed and shamed before they learned that. I also learned this lesson the hard way. We are not judged by our gifts...but by our actions.Amen. All it takes is obedience and such falling does not happen.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 03:47 PM
Amen. All it takes is obedience and such falling does not happen.

Amen! And this thread is for that very thing...obedience to Christ. :)

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 03:49 PM
I would probably get very physical in restaining the attackers, and I might even kill them. But if I kill them in self-defence, I still think it is a sin, and may God forgive me for it.

Thank you for being honest. God gave me this family, I just don't think I could stand and watch even knowing that ultimately God (and we) win in the end. God forgive me!

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 03:51 PM
The way of Christ is not pacifism....it is by the power of the Spirit...not the flesh.

Pacifism by definition means dealing with a physical thing in a non-physical way.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 03:57 PM
Amen! And this thread is for that very thing...obedience to Christ. :)OK... so lets address my personal obedience to God.

While I was a soldier, on the battlefield I kill evil doers. I minister the Word of God to those who will listen, I pray for those who want prayer etc.

While at church, no evil doers to kill but prayer and ministering is done.

Are you saying that I am not obedient because I do not align with your understanding of scripture?

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 04:06 PM
OK... so lets address my personal obedience to God.

While I was a soldier, on the battlefield I kill evil doers. I minister the Word of God to those who will listen, I pray for those who want prayer etc.

While at church, no evil doers to kill but prayer and ministering is done.

Are you saying that I am not obedient because I do not align with your understanding of scripture?

I don't judge you or any other serviceman...you are doing what you believe is right. I respect that.

But we have the commands of Christ to deal with. Even if the sun shines on our faces while we do what we think is the best thing in the world...we are still subject to what Jesus said.

So there is a good way...and a better way. In Christ we follow the perfect way. If a man is not able to abide the words of Jesus...then he just joins the "most" who cannot abide the words of Christ.

I do not see this, personally, as a salvation issue. I see this as what we are building with. Are we truly building by spiritual power...like Jesus and apostles did...or are we going by our own strength conditioning and reasoning?

Using a physical force is not the same as walking by the Spirit and warring by the Spirit.

We have walked through the door of Christ...but can we follow the WAY of Christ. Can we war by the Spirit or do we just do as other men and use physical force? What WAY are we bringing peace...by the Spirit or by the gun?

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 04:21 PM
I don't judge you or any other serviceman...you are doing what you believe is right. I respect that.

But we have the commands of Christ to deal with. Even if the sun shines on our faces while we do what we think is the best thing in the world...we are still subject to what Jesus said.

So there is a good way...and a better way. In Christ we follow the perfect way. If a man is not able to abide the words of Jesus...then he just joins the "most" who cannot abide the words of Christ.

I do not see this, personally, as a salvation issue. I see this as what we are building with. Are we truly building by spiritual power...like Jesus and apostles did...or are we going by our own strength conditioning and reasoning?

Using a physical force is not the same as walking by the Spirit and warring by the Spirit.

We have walked through the door of Christ...but can we follow the WAY of Christ. Can we war by the Spirit or do we just do as other men and use physical force? What WAY are we bringing peace...by the Spirit or by the gun?E... lets be specific in my question... while I was a Soldier and also serving God on the battlefield or in the church He wanted me, anointing and praying resulted in miraculous glory to God. There was no lack of the Holy Spirit and His power.

You say that i was doing what "I believed" was right... yet people were healed, delievered of demons, ministered to through words of knowledge, etc. How is this possible by what "I believe" compared to what you believe?

By the testimony alone, how can you say that what "I believe" is right... resulted in such testimony given to me by God for His glory over those years while I was in the Army?

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 04:35 PM
E... lets be specific in my question... while I was a Soldier and also serving God on the battlefield or in the church He wanted me, anointing and praying resulted in miraculous glory to God. There was no lack of the Holy Spirit and His power.

You say that i was doing what "I believed" was right... yet people were healed, delievered of demons, ministered to through words of knowledge, etc. How is this possible by what "I believe" compared to what you believe?

By the testimony alone, how can you say that what "I believe" is right... resulted in such testimony given to me by God for His glory over those years while I was in the Army?

I can't judge that one way or the other...I was not involved in any way in your experiences. All we have to relate to each other is...the bible and what Jesus told us. I also have my own experience which you were not involved with. I learned that what I was 100% sure about ...was off...and I walked in the Spirit while yet being wrong about what I was so sure of. God taught me later on as I became more ready to understand.

So we are all learning and growing. Some have learned some things before others....so that some other person can see what God will show us in the future. We can't judge though since we might have a lesson to learn that the other has already learned.

I think that is the benefit of the body....where we can see God working. But we must be careful not to judge...sometimes we are judging another for what we are 10 times more guilty of ourselves.

little watchman
Jul 24th 2014, 04:37 PM
You say that i was doing what "I believed" was right... yet people were healed, delievered of demons, ministered to through words of knowledge, etc. How is this possible by what "I believe" compared to what you believe?

Here I go again, answering for someone else... God works with imperfect people, people who hold onto sins they're not even aware of. How many times have I heard stories of Seventh-day Adventists saying, "God miraculously made a way for me on three different occasions when I would not work on the Sabbath. This must be the one true church because God led me here and now He's confirmed His favor with these miracles." My hyper-Calvinist friends also have confirmation that God is with them, for example through a word of knowledge confirming their decision to adopt children. That doesn't validate the Calvinist view of God; it just shows how eager God is to meet us despite our imperfect perceptions of the world.

episkopos
Jul 24th 2014, 04:38 PM
Pacifism by definition means dealing with a physical thing in a non-physical way.

...or is it a way of thinking that says violence is always wrong? I believe that what God does is always right...including the use of violence. God called me to not use my own strength but to be weak so that His strength could rest upon me. So I follow Christ in obedience to His will for me. If He wanted me to be the angel of death....then I would obey that as well. :)

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 05:52 PM
I can't judge that one way or the other...I was not involved in any way in your experiences. All we have to relate to each other is...the bible and what Jesus told us. I also have my own experience which you were not involved with. I learned that what I was 100% sure about ...was off...and I walked in the Spirit while yet being wrong about what I was so sure of. God taught me later on as I became more ready to understand.

So we are all learning and growing. Some have learned some things before others....so that some other person can see what God will show us in the future. We can't judge though since we might have a lesson to learn that the other has already learned.

I think that is the benefit of the body....where we can see God working. But we must be careful not to judge...sometimes we are judging another for what we are 10 times more guilty of ourselves.I agree, no judgement. However :rolleyes:... while I was in the Army, and when deployed, killing evil doers, walking in the Spirit continued. Why you may ask?

No where is killing a sin in the Bible, to kill an evil doer is NOT carnal. If it was, then it would be detailed as a sin in the Bible. Sin is of the flesh, I agree with what you said earlier. So what is the difference? The difference is murder is detailed in the Bible as a sin, it is a fleshly act, carnal... and to do this is the action of evil doers.

Stopping them is not carnal, is not fleshly because killing is NOT a sin. God moves obeident servants to bring His wrath upon evil doers and this results in their death in some cases where it is necessary.

So when a Christian is in obedience to God, they are not carnal because killing is not a sin. They are not fleshly because killing is not a sin. This is why a Christian who serves in the armed forces, or on a police force continue to be in the Spirit of God... JUST LIKE in the days when God led and ordered His people to kill. They where fully led by the Spirit of God and in many cases, fully empowered supernaturally when God needed.

Same thing is happening today, on battlefields of the world.

I've been there... I can give testimony.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 05:56 PM
Here I go again, answering for someone else... God works with imperfect people, people who hold onto sins they're not even aware of. How many times have I heard stories of Seventh-day Adventists saying, "God miraculously made a way for me on three different occasions when I would not work on the Sabbath. This must be the one true church because God led me here and now He's confirmed His favor with these miracles." My hyper-Calvinist friends also have confirmation that God is with them, for example through a word of knowledge confirming their decision to adopt children. That doesn't validate the Calvinist view of God; it just shows how eager God is to meet us despite our imperfect perceptions of the world.Well, we know the Bible doesn't even hint of any "true" church... we are ONE Body only.

Anyway... I agree with you mostly in some points. I've watched God heal people infront of others who's doctrine taught that God don't heal anymore. Guess what... the doctrine held despite seeing the healing, so was God glorified?

Don't answer... don't want to derail the thread.

divaD
Jul 24th 2014, 06:12 PM
I agree, no judgement. However :rolleyes:... while I was in the Army, and when deployed, killing evil doers, walking in the Spirit continued. Why you may ask?

No where is killing a sin in the Bible, to kill an evil doer is NOT carnal. If it was, then it would be detailed as a sin in the Bible. Sin is of the flesh, I agree with what you said earlier. So what is the difference? The difference is murder is detailed in the Bible as a sin, it is a fleshly act, carnal... and to do this is the action of evil doers.

Stopping them is not carnal, is not fleshly because killing is NOT a sin. God moves obeident servants to bring His wrath upon evil doers and this results in their death in some cases where it is necessary.

So when a Christian is in obedience to God, they are not carnal because killing is not a sin. They are not fleshly because killing is not a sin. This is why a Christian who serves in the armed forces, or on a police force continue to be in the Spirit of God... JUST LIKE in the days when God led and ordered His people to kill. They where fully led by the Spirit of God and in many cases, fully empowered supernaturally when God needed.

Same thing is happening today, on battlefields of the world.

I've been there... I can give testimony.



Some of this seems a bit hypocritical to me, but not meaning you though. Take cops for instance. You seem to be saying it's not a sin for them to kill evil doers, when in fact cops themselves are evildoers as well at times. Just the other day a man was accused of selling cigarettes on the street by the cops. The next thing you know they have this man down on the ground, with one of the cops having a choke hold on him, which is supposed to be against police procedure in that city, and then the man dies. For what? Selling cigarettes on the street? And this one is the evil doer while the cops aren't?

BrianW
Jul 24th 2014, 06:18 PM
I'm chiming in on behalf of episkopos here. This forum is not a good place for exploring the basis of doctrines that rest on the whole counsel of scripture.

I disagree. This is after all Bible Chat. The only impediment to exploring it would be an unwillingness to make the effort. If someone makes the bold claim or even hints that other members aren't letting Jesus inform their Christianity then others should be perfectly free in asking for an apologetic or at least an effort to expand upon the statement from a biblical foundation.
If the thread goes over a thousand post we can make a part 2, 3 4 etc ect.

That hasn't happened here. Instead someone has made a bold claim, that you also seem to agree with, and instead of expounding, clarifying and attempting to edify we see cherry picking and sidestepping. If you believe it and want to boldly proclaim it do so and do so in an attempt to edify not just peak interest.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 06:27 PM
Some of this seems a bit hypocritical to me, but not meaning you though. Take cops for instance. You seem to be saying it's not a sin for them to kill evil doers, when in fact cops themselves are evildoers as well at times. Just the other day a man was accused of selling cigarettes on the street by the cops. The next thing you know they have this man down on the ground, with one of the cops having a choke hold on him, which is supposed to be against police procedure in that city, and then the man dies. For what? Selling cigarettes on the street? And this one is the evil doer while the cops aren't?I bet a cop that is also a Christian would not have done what the carnal cop did.

Do you see the difference?

It's not about being hypocritical unless the one doing their job in such a carnal/fleshly manner is a Christain.

divaD
Jul 24th 2014, 07:12 PM
I bet a cop that is also a Christian would not have done what the carnal cop did.

Do you see the difference?

It's not about being hypocritical unless the one doing their job in such a carnal/fleshly manner is a Christain.

There were numerous cops involved in the incedent. Since we have no clue about their religious beliefs one way or the other, we then can't know for sure that none of these cops were professed Christians. Maybe none of them were, or again maybe one or two of them may have been professed Christians. Not all professed Christians possess the same morals.

little watchman
Jul 24th 2014, 07:37 PM
I disagree. This is after all Bible Chat. The only impediment to exploring it would be an unwillingness to make the effort. ... If you believe it and want to boldly proclaim it do so and do so in an attempt to edify not just peak interest.

About ten years ago when I was attending a Calvinist church, I started organizing my notes in favor of libertarian free will. Then Roger E Olson came out with his book, "Arminian Theology," which voiced most of my philosophical arguments and some of my exegetical arguments (the rest have been voiced on different websites). I felt relieved at that point that I didn't have to write the book myself. He did a better job than I am able to do, and who cares who writes it as long as it is written. If I were to write extensively on a subject that has been covered by someone else, I would have to wonder if I was doing it for my own glory rather than God's.

Perhaps I am unusual here in that I read a lot of books and writing is very effortful, so my mistake might be in that I treat others as though they were like me.

Slug1
Jul 24th 2014, 07:55 PM
There were numerous cops involved in the incedent. Since we have no clue about their religious beliefs one way or the other, we then can't know for sure that none of these cops were professed Christians. Maybe none of them were, or again maybe one or two of them may have been professed Christians. Not all professed Christians possess the same morals.Hooah, agree 100%. I can be quite carnal and because I know I can, so when I am weak or I slip up, or due to emotion, lash out in the flesh... this is why God has this act called confessing of sin for forgiveness/repentance. From this, reconcilliation and restoration can and will happen.

EarlyCall
Jul 24th 2014, 08:33 PM
There were numerous cops involved in the incedent. Since we have no clue about their religious beliefs one way or the other, we then can't know for sure that none of these cops were professed Christians. Maybe none of them were, or again maybe one or two of them may have been professed Christians. Not all professed Christians possess the same morals.

I must be missing your point in this and your previous post and I'm left wondering what your point is.

What do you make of a bunch of cops who save the lives of several people in great danger and not a one of them is a Christian? I'd say they were a bunch of great cops, but I don't think I could make a point out it.

Oh well, I often miss the point someone else is making, and that would be on me of course.

RollTide21
Jul 24th 2014, 10:04 PM
So I take it from your answer that you cannot answer from a firm biblically based foundation you instead take the parts from scripture that will help you believe what you wish and ignore the rest. Got it.I don't really have an opinion on the subject, but he did bring up Jesus's commands to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. It was struck down as not meaning what it says.

There is a ton of Scripture to support that Christians should avoid violence. You know this.

LandShark
Jul 24th 2014, 10:22 PM
I don't really have an opinion on the subject, but he did bring up Jesus's commands to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. It was struck down as not meaning what it says.

There is a ton of Scripture to support that Christians should avoid violence. You know this.

See, as one who "shot it down" I am not saying we look for violence, in fact, we avoid it at ALL costs. But again, if you walk into your home and see your spouse or a child being abused, are you really going to stand there? I pray NONE of us are every confronted with such a thing, but reality is reality and if I see somebody bringing harm to my kids, heck, if I see somebody bringing harm to YOUR KIDS, I will defend them with force, preferably non-lethal but if it comes to that, so be it.

BrianW
Jul 24th 2014, 10:43 PM
I don't really have an opinion on the subject, but he did bring up Jesus's commands to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. It was struck down as not meaning what it says.

There is a ton of Scripture to support that Christians should avoid violence. You know this.

You obviously didn't read the whole thread and see my other posts. :)

When people get serious and really start discussing this by using scripture in context and getting to the meat of it -and they will I think--I'll join in.

divaD
Jul 24th 2014, 11:00 PM
I must be missing your point in this and your previous post and I'm left wondering what your point is.

What do you make of a bunch of cops who save the lives of several people in great danger and not a one of them is a Christian? I'd say they were a bunch of great cops, but I don't think I could make a point out it.

Oh well, I often miss the point someone else is making, and that would be on me of course.


You're for sure not on the same page with me. In Slug1's post I was first replying to, he seemed to be saying killing is not a sin. Then he brought cops into the picture killing evil doers. I then provided a recent example where the cops just killed one of these alleged evil doers just for selling untaxed cigarettes on the street. I then pointed out that cops are even evil doers at times. So my question would be, since it's not a sin to kill evil doers, who then gets to kill these cops for their acts of evil? No one of course, because it would be murder if that were to happen, but I guess it was just a justified killing when the cops did this the other day and not murder. The incedent I'm referring to was on the news the other night and can also be found on YouTube. Here's a link in case you missed this on the news the other night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZOu__nVHg

ProDeo
Jul 25th 2014, 06:24 AM
When Paul says the weapons of OUR warfare are spiritual...who does he mean by "our"?
Paul also traveled with the Roman army for his protection.

Is Paul a hypocrite?

ProDeo
Jul 25th 2014, 07:13 AM
A Christian can be a policeman...but he would not form the barrier of silence that protects criminal activity. He would suffer for being a Christian. IF he is truly Christian.
But I suppose you would call the police when your life (or your spouse, kid) is in danger and force is required making yourself complicit to violence?

ProDeo
Jul 25th 2014, 07:26 AM
And I have a question for you. Did the Christians that were thrown to the lions in Rome....go down fighting?
Like I said previously, if you face death because of your faith then die as a martyr for Christ, because then you are.

59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

ProDeo
Jul 25th 2014, 07:40 AM
It means that we will be slaughtered as Jesus was...IF we are really Christians.
So when on a bad day you are robbed you don't defend yourself, that part I get. Then the guy pulls a knife with the intention to kill you. You let yourself slaughtered?

Neanias
Jul 25th 2014, 11:44 AM
If you seek to save your life, you will lose it.

A Christianity that defends itself by force is a far cry from the early church that was built on Jesus' teachings. There are no martyr's in such a Christianity. And Jesus was a martyr. We may praise him with our lips, but in this we deny him with our actions, and exclude him from our gathering. He was much more than a martyr also, don't misunderstand me. But he did not fight back, and he was a witness, an example, and he died to show his love. He did not retaliate, and even dying prayed 'forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'.

If we wish to call ourselves Christians, this is the path we must follow. We give our lives in love. This can change a man's heart. Even a very evil man, seeing one who he persecutes be willing to give his life for him, can be changed.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. (1 Peter 2:21)

The first church allowed itself to be slaughtered. Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it produces no fruit. Now I do not believe that a literal meaning is the only meaning here, nor do I believe in seeking martyrdom. But I do believe in embracing it when it comes. By an honorable death, resembling Jesus, we have a bold witness before God and men. This was the way of Jesus, and the way he taught, and the way his disciples followed. We can ignore this, but then we must consider, is our testimony the same as Jesus'? Or is our testimony based on the idea that our beliefs and religion is superior, we are the saved, and therefore we are to dominate? The latter starts to sound more like Naziism than Christianity.

I would be lying if I said I found it easy to not want to defend myself. We all have a sense of justice as humans. We want what is fair... Especially for ourselves. But this is not the way of God. This way is based on self protection and on gaining for ourselves, meanwhile the way of God is based on self sacrifice in love. God's way is to die himself on a cross at the very hands of a people who hate him. A people to whom he provides their very breath, and who he could annihilate. But instead he dies for them. We are called to do just the same.

The ways of man are not the ways of God, and our sense of justice is lacking in God's love. The anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.

This truth is not easy for any man to swallow. Before being able to physically give our life, it requires a death on the inside. We must die to that old man that would defend himself to the death, clawing and fighting. But who would let that man die unless he recognized that very man as displeasing to God? Our self-justifying doctrine has made us feel justified in our old man, and made us feel entitled to all the good things of heaven, and so we never allow our old ways to die.

But we have a better example.

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (1 Peter 2)

Jesus looked at the very people nailing him to a cross with compassion and love. He looked at those lost and full of hatred with love, and sought their redemption. If we have been those people, and while we were yet sinners, he died for us, and if we are thankful, then we must now die that others may live... Even if that one day means literally die. Otherwise we are of the unjust kind of men, who were redeemed and forgiven at a great price, but would not even desire to pay that price for men and women who are just as they once were.

Jesus did not die for you and me only, he died for the sins of the whole world. May God give us the grace to see ourselves and God's love for us in the eyes of the next person that hates us, even if they threatened our lives!

episkopos
Jul 25th 2014, 02:22 PM
Like I said previously, if you face death because of your faith then die as a martyr for Christ, because then you are.

59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

You have to live as a Christian to die as one.

episkopos
Jul 25th 2014, 02:28 PM
So when on a bad day you are robbed you don't defend yourself, that part I get. Then the guy pulls a knife with the intention to kill you. You let yourself slaughtered?

That's where the wisdom part is required. If a man wants something from you...what does Jesus say to do? We are to give him MORE than he requires.

Mat_5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

episkopos
Jul 25th 2014, 02:43 PM
Jesus counseled His followers to be different from other people. We are to go against the flow. I am reminded of a story that took place in Russia whereby a man was robbed of his silver candelabra. Following the fresh tracks in the snow he found the burglar sleeping in the neighbours' barn. The robber was startled as he awoke to find the man standing over him...but rather than being confronted by an angry man....he was smiling as he held out the rest of the silver set.. The man said...I think you need this more than I do. The robber was touched to his heart and repented of his crime right there.

We see a similar storyline in the story entitled "les miserables".

Is this what we do...???

We should practice empathy and not set our treasures in this world. That is what pleases the Lord. If we set our treasures rather in heaven then there is bound to be some waiting for us.

Slug1
Jul 25th 2014, 02:53 PM
Jesus counseled His followers to be different from other people. We are to go against the flow. I am reminded of a story that took place in Russia whereby a man was robbed of his silver candelabra. Following the fresh tracks in the snow he found the burglar sleeping in the neighbours' barn. The robber was startled as he awoke to find the man standing over him...but rather than being confronted by an angry man....he was smiling as he held out the rest of the silver set.. The man said...I think you need this more than I do. The robber was touched to his heart and repented of his crime right there.

We see a similar storyline in the story entitled "les miserables".

Is this what we do...???

We should practice empathy and not set our treasures in this world. That is what pleases the Lord. If we set our treasures rather in heaven then there is bound to be some waiting for us.Amen, we are to offer charity.

Now... the man wakes up and as the victim of the theft is offering the additional pieces of silver, the thief pulls out a gun and begins to shoot at the giver... is the giver then going to be used by God to end the live of an evil doer?

In many cases... YES because the Christian is not to be a martyr. As I said, there is NOTHING carnal, fleshly, or sinful in the act of killing an evil doer.

However, many choose to be a martyr due to misconstruing of scriptures because they don't understand what it means when Jesus says to buy a sword and how this is balanced with ALL that He says/teaches.

RollTide21
Jul 25th 2014, 03:06 PM
You obviously didn't read the whole thread and see my other posts. :)

When people get serious and really start discussing this by using scripture in context and getting to the meat of it -and they will I think--I'll join in.I'm with you. ******

ProDeo
Jul 25th 2014, 03:42 PM
You have to live as a Christian to die as one.

And how does fit John 2 in your view?

Jesus Cleanses the Temple
13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.

15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

It's not even self-defence but aggression initiated by Jesus, God incarnated.

ProDeo
Jul 25th 2014, 03:45 PM
So when on a bad day you are robbed you don't defend yourself, that part I get. Then the guy pulls a knife with the intention to kill you. You let yourself slaughtered?


That's where the wisdom part is required. If a man wants something from you...what does Jesus say to do? We are to give him MORE than he requires.

Mat_5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
You only addressed what we agree on, not the question.

episkopos
Jul 25th 2014, 03:46 PM
And how does fit John 2 in your view?

Jesus Cleanses the Temple
13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.

15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

It's not even self-defence but aggression initiated by Jesus, God incarnated.

Jesus indeed is harder on religious people than on the general population. At least the criminal element of society is not trying to overthrow holiness. Jesus said the religious ones would be judged harder than the carnal ones.

Slug1
Jul 25th 2014, 03:49 PM
And how does fit John 2 in your view?

Jesus Cleanses the Temple
13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.

15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

It's not even self-defence but aggression initiated by Jesus, God incarnated.Amen... there is a "balance" of what the scriptures mean. Action such as this has purpose and many Christians have struck these scriptures out of their Bibles because this situation UNbalances what they want to believe.

This was self defense by the way... He defends the Body of Christ and this is Him doing it while in the flesh. He also allows the use of weapons as we know from the scriptures too. But again, these scripture are usually avoided or striken from Bibles because such scriptures UNbalance what they want to believe.

There is a balance and it begins in understanding that to kill, is NOT a sin and is thus, NOT a carnal act when one does kill in the defense of oneself or another from evil doers.

Neanias
Jul 25th 2014, 05:55 PM
Self-defense might not be evil. But we are not simply called to do what is acceptable, we are called to be a living witness.

Does the love of Christ who gave his life for us, sinners, shine through our actions and way of living? Or do we gladly receive the gift of Jesus' life but withhold the gift of our own as a sacrifice to a man who needs what we once needed?

I'm not condoning passivity. Neither do I believe in purposely putting oneself in harm's way to make oneself a martyr. That wouldn't be wise. What is wise is love, and in many cases love does not call for self-defense, but for mercy. I do believe in protecting oneself to the reasonable extent. I lock the doors to my house to protect my family. I do what I can to keep my family and myself out of harm's way. And if harm came my way because I bear his name, I cannot tell you today I am sure I would have courage, but I do hope and pray I would.

Killing evil doers is a clear part of the OT. But Jesus redefines everything when he says 'you have heard it said 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth', but I tell you, do not resist an evil person'.

The New Testament testimony is more powerful than the old. In the old, God established a physical nation. Today, God has established a living body called to do what he does, give it's life for the world. Jesus poured out his blood for our sakes, and the sake of the world, we are to pour ours out for the sake of the world now also, following his example. This is not only literal, and I re-iterate that it does not mean seeking martyrdom. But it means living a sacrificial life to the utmost.

It scares me, personally. I don't know how far I could go. But with God all things are possible, and I have become convinced this is the way, because it is the testimony of Christ, and the testimony his disciples left, Peter, Paul, and the early church. We should not invite trouble or seek it, but when it comes our way, it is faith that is our shield, and God is our deliverer.

This is not based on law or justice, it is based on love and mercy. How can we testify of the love and mercy Christ had towards us if we do not demonstrate the same love and mercy to those he died for?

Slug1
Jul 25th 2014, 06:03 PM
Self-defense might not be evil. But we are not simply called to do what is acceptable, we are called to be a living witness.

Does the love of Christ who gave his life for us, sinners, shine through our actions and way of living? Or do we gladly receive the gift of Jesus' life but withhold the gift of our own as a sacrifice to a man who needs what we once needed?

I'm not condoning passivity. Neither do I believe in purposely putting oneself in harm's way to make oneself a martyr. That wouldn't be wise. What is wise is love, and in many cases love does not call for self-defense, but for mercy. I do believe in protecting oneself to the reasonable extent. I lock the doors to my house to protect my family. I do what I can to keep my family and myself out of harm's way. And if harm came my way because I bear his name, I cannot tell you today I am sure I would have courage, but I do hope and pray I would.

Killing evil doers is a clear part of the OT. But Jesus redefines everything when he says 'you have heard it said 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth', but I tell you, do not resist an evil person'.

The New Testament testimony is more powerful than the old. In the old, God established a physical nation. Today, God has established a living body called to do what he does, give it's life for the world. Jesus poured out his blood for our sakes, and the sake of the world, we are to pour ours out for the sake of the world now also, following his example. This is not only literal, and I re-iterate that it does not mean seeking martyrdom. But it means living a sacrificial life to the utmost.

It scares me, personally. I don't know how far I could go. But with God all things are possible, and I have become convinced this is the way, because it is the testimony of Christ, and the testimony his disciples left, Peter, Paul, and the early church. We should not invite trouble or seek it, but when it comes our way, it is faith that is our shield, and God is our deliverer.

This is not based on law or justice, it is based on love and mercy. How can we testify of the love and mercy Christ had towards us if we do not demonstrate the same love and mercy to those he died for?A situation that I will always raise in these discussions and what Prodeo mentioned, is the situation where Paul sought after help from Romans soldiers when he discovered the assissination attempt on his life.

This can be read in Acts 23. The point being... if a Christian is not to resist evil in the manner in which you say, then Paul in a position in opposition of what you wrote up. If a killer enters your home and you are not to resist the killer, by calling the authorities to stop the killer IS RESISTING the killer. So what happens while you are waiting for the police to come and do all that is necessary to stop the killer and they are not there when the killer enters your childs room?

There is a balance. Killing is not evil, nor a sin. This is why all throughout the Bible any person who killed another was not held guilty of any sin by God. There wasn't even any consequence for killing. Only murder is the sin and those guilty of this sin will not be in heaven if they never repent. Even for those who murdered and repented, STILL suffered consequences (King David is a prime example). But for those who killed others, no need to even repent based on scripture.

divaD
Jul 25th 2014, 07:25 PM
A situation that I will always raise in these discussions and what Prodeo mentioned, is the situation where Paul sought after help from Romans soldiers when he discovered the assissination attempt on his life.

This can be read in Acts 23. The point being... if a Christian is not to resist evil in the manner in which you say, then Paul in a position in opposition of what you wrote up. If a killer enters your home and you are not to resist the killer, by calling the authorities to stop the killer IS RESISTING the killer. So what happens while you are waiting for the police to come and do all that is necessary to stop the killer and they are not there when the killer enters your childs room?

There is a balance. Killing is not evil, nor a sin. This is why all throughout the Bible any person who killed another was not held guilty of any sin by God. There wasn't even any consequence for killing. Only murder is the sin and those guilty of this sin will not be in heaven if they never repent. Even for those who murdered and repented, STILL suffered consequences (King David is a prime example). But for those who killed others, no need to even repent based on scripture.


Let me ask this then. Suppose the scenerio was like this. Someone breaks into your home where it is clear that they intend on doing you and your family bodily harm. Let's then say you, the man of the house, get's the best of the perpetrator before he accomplish his goals to do bodily harm, and then you have him fully subdued, knocked out even. Suppose then, that while this person is fully subdued, you then go find your loaded pistol, point it at the person's head, then fire off a round or two into this person's skull. Since it's not a sin to kill evil doers, that means this wouldn't be murder then, right?

Slug1
Jul 25th 2014, 08:15 PM
Let me ask this then. Suppose the scenerio was like this. Someone breaks into your home where it is clear that they intend on doing you and your family bodily harm. Let's then say you, the man of the house, get's the best of the perpetrator before he accomplish his goals to do bodily harm, and then you have him fully subdued, knocked out even. Suppose then, that while this person is fully subdued, you then go find your loaded pistol, point it at the person's head, then fire off a round or two into this person's skull. Since it's not a sin to kill evil doers, that means this wouldn't be murder then, right?If I did that, then I'd be the evil doer acting carnally by murdering the subduded their.

Even in combat, should an enemy raise their hands or forfeit their weapon, they are considered an "non-combatant" and will not be killed but can be taken prisoner as an EPW (enemy prisoner of war). To kill them would be murder and a soldier could be charged as such under the UCMJ.

So, while that thief is an evil doer he but is in the same situation as a "non-combatant" and the poilce will arrest them, not kill them. If the home owner killed them after they were a non-combatant, then the home owner murdered the thief.

Neanias
Jul 25th 2014, 09:13 PM
I have no problem with protecting yourself, and even more so, your family. The question is when does one cross the line from protecting to attacking. If a thief entered my home I believe the right thing to do would be to give him what he asks and more. If he had intention of hurting my wife or children, I should do what I can to protect them, but with no intention of harming the intruder. If he was caught by the authorities, and I had opportunity to use the law against him, I would see it as a opportunity to be a testimony to him and show him mercy, and hopefully share the gospel.

I do understand what you are saying about Paul. Paul sought protection, which I agree with, but he did not seek retribution or to harm the ones attacking him. Jesus evaded the crowd under God's protection when his time and not come either. But there is no violence from them in both cases. That is not, as I call it, self-defense. That is finding refuge and protection.

I can only think of one occurrence where a Christian physically defended himself or another, and in that case he was sternly rebuked by Jesus, who healed the hear of the Roman who was attacked. I've heard the argument from those who believe in violence as a means of protection that Jesus was an exception. I've heard it said that yes, Jesus had to die for the sins of the world, and that as a result of his suffering, we did not need to suffer, not even in this life.

Only I can't agree with that. It is not what Jesus teaches, when he tells not to return evil for evil, and to turn the other cheek. It is not what Paul, as a follower, preaches, as he says that Christ died that he may have life, and now he, Paul, dies also that others may have life. Peter spoke likewise that Christ suffered not just for our sins and to cleanse us, but also as an example to be followed.

Finding shelter and protection is not the same in my eyes as returning violence with violence to protect one's life. Like I said, I don't believe in seeking death or martyrdom at all. But I don't believe in violence as a means of bringing the peace of God at all either.

I do submit that though these are the things I believe, I do not know what would happen in the hour of testing. Peter said he would never deny Jesus, and yet he did. I think I've learned more with my head than what has yet to penetrate my heart. I only pray for courage and faith when testing comes and that the Lord would prepare me. It's not something easy to follow through! :)

divaD
Jul 25th 2014, 11:13 PM
If I did that, then I'd be the evil doer acting carnally by murdering the subduded their.

Even in combat, should an enemy raise their hands or forfeit their weapon, they are considered an "non-combatant" and will not be killed but can be taken prisoner as an EPW (enemy prisoner of war). To kill them would be murder and a soldier could be charged as such under the UCMJ.

So, while that thief is an evil doer he but is in the same situation as a "non-combatant" and the poilce will arrest them, not kill them. If the home owner killed them after they were a non-combatant, then the home owner murdered the thief.

We're on the same page then. I figured that's how you likely reasoned it, but wanted to make sure.

Diggindeeper
Jul 26th 2014, 12:20 AM
A very wise man once wrote:

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

EarlyCall
Jul 26th 2014, 12:55 AM
To the pacifists...

I'm ok with how you believe for the most part, but most definitely not entirely.


So let's say I am legally allowed to carry a gun (actually, anyone in Ohio can do so openly where permitted), and I come upon a little seven year girl being raped and murdered by some monster. What do I do? Pray that God intervenes and saves her?

Really? I should think to hear God say, you stop the guy, you're the one with the gun! Don't try to shove such a thing off on God and wash your hands of the mess.

The very thought of such a thing makes me sick and angry.

Boo
Jul 26th 2014, 10:13 AM
If I were like Jesus knowing that my crucifixion serves God purpose and that God is using my own brothers and sisters to perform that act, I may well ask God to forgive them and make no move to stop what God wants done.

If I were Stephen and outnumbered by my angry brothers and knowing that I am going to die, then I have little choice but to die. Stephen chose to ask God to forgive them. That does not prove that he would not have escaped or fought back if he could.

Neither of those examples proves that Jesus must not have commanded his disciples to buy swords.

Our understanding of God's will for our lives is not a call to heed one side of a lesson and ignore the other.

The Real Milk Man
Jul 26th 2014, 11:27 AM
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/jesus-death-penalty-al-mohler-sarah-palin


To what degree are we really following Christ compared to shoe-horning our own beliefs into "our" Christianity?


This helps me in following the true Jesus more fully; when we acknowledge/recognize (and put into practice, Luke 6:46-49 NIV) that He has one as His God both pre and post ascension:




Rev. 3:12, He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

John 20:17, ... ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'

Noeb
Jul 26th 2014, 03:17 PM
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/jesus-death-penalty-al-mohler-sarah-palin


To what degree are we really following Christ compared to shoe-horning our own beliefs into "our" Christianity?This individual and those that agree, do not understand Matthew 5-7 at all and most of what Jesus said, and are "shoe-horning" their beliefs into "their own" Christianity.

Neanias
Jul 27th 2014, 02:31 AM
The world deals out judgment, and that is good and necessary. The earth should not be a place of total lawlessness. Not that the world is perfectly just, great injustices happen at the hands of the courts and judges of this earth. But some justice has to be served in the physical sense. Wars are fought. There is indeed a time for everything under the sun. There is not a time for everything for us to do as Christians. Hatred is not to be in our hearts, but compassion and love. Hatred of lies, yes, hatred of evil, yes, not hatred of our fellow men, though they be evil-doers.

The world fights wars and deals judgment in the flesh. Christians are called out of the world to war in the Spirit. We do not war carnally, or judge carnally. We are called to be lambs, not wolves, and to lay our lives down for others, not take the lives of others to save our own.

The Nazi's believed in taking the lives of others to establish a better order in this world and to bring about a just and upright kingdom. We easily condemn them and think their evils obvious. Yet many have given to the same evil, simply in a form more subtle to their own eyes. Pride blinds, it blinded many Germans, but it blinds many of all origins today in the same way, as it always has. The rich and powerful, as us Westerners are more prone to this, because of our situation.

Romans 2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

If we call ourselves by the name of the Lord and as his followers we are held to a higher standard than the world. The world is held to the standard of justice, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but we are called to give our lives as a sacrifice. The early church did not arm itself to overthrow the Roman empire. Many expected Jesus to be the leader of such a rebellion and overthrow. But the Messiah did not come in earthly power as they thought he would. He brought in a new hope and new power.

Many have embraced the Jesus of Constantine. But this Jesus is not the Christ, born in a manger, crucified by men, exalted by God. He is another. Let every man be careful how he judges, and let every man pay heed and consider which Jesus he follows! Do we follow a triumphant Jesus, God of war and earthly power, or the Lamb of God, slain for the sins of the world, calling those who follow after to die also for the sake of others?

Boo
Jul 27th 2014, 10:03 AM
Dying for the sake of others is what soldiers do, as well.

They serve the governments that God permitted.

Policemen also die for the sake of others. They also serve governments.

I would die for my wife and kids if need be. I would do that because of the love that Jesus taught me to know.

I don't think any of these things go against God's will. That may be why we were told "Thou shalt not murder" rather than "thou shalt not kill."

Matthew 5: 21-22
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Our problem is that most of us commit this kind of murder. It has nothing to do with protecting those whom we love.

When we confuse self-sacrifice with protection, we scramble much of what God has told us throughout the Bible.

episkopos
Jul 27th 2014, 12:13 PM
Dying for the sake of others is what soldiers do, as well.

They serve the governments that God permitted.

Policemen also die for the sake of others. They also serve governments.

I would die for my wife and kids if need be. I would do that because of the love that Jesus taught me to know.

I don't think any of these things go against God's will. That may be why we were told "Thou shalt not murder" rather than "thou shalt not kill."

Matthew 5: 21-22

Our problem is that most of us commit this kind of murder. It has nothing to do with protecting those whom we love.

When we confuse self-sacrifice with protection, we scramble much of what God has told us throughout the Bible.

A Christian is not to entangle himself in the affairs of this life. We are soldiers of heaven...not of earth. We are in the world but are we also OF it?

2Ti_2:4 No man that warreth (In the Spirit) entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier (of heaven).

EarlyCall
Jul 27th 2014, 12:30 PM
The world deals out judgment, and that is good and necessary. The earth should not be a place of total lawlessness. Not that the world is perfectly just, great injustices happen at the hands of the courts and judges of this earth. But some justice has to be served in the physical sense. Wars are fought. There is indeed a time for everything under the sun. There is not a time for everything for us to do as Christians. Hatred is not to be in our hearts, but compassion and love. Hatred of lies, yes, hatred of evil, yes, not hatred of our fellow men, though they be evil-doers.

The world fights wars and deals judgment in the flesh. Christians are called out of the world to war in the Spirit. We do not war carnally, or judge carnally. We are called to be lambs, not wolves, and to lay our lives down for others, not take the lives of others to save our own.

The Nazi's believed in taking the lives of others to establish a better order in this world and to bring about a just and upright kingdom. We easily condemn them and think their evils obvious. Yet many have given to the same evil, simply in a form more subtle to their own eyes. Pride blinds, it blinded many Germans, but it blinds many of all origins today in the same way, as it always has. The rich and powerful, as us Westerners are more prone to this, because of our situation.

Romans 2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

If we call ourselves by the name of the Lord and as his followers we are held to a higher standard than the world. The world is held to the standard of justice, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but we are called to give our lives as a sacrifice. The early church did not arm itself to overthrow the Roman empire. Many expected Jesus to be the leader of such a rebellion and overthrow. But the Messiah did not come in earthly power as they thought he would. He brought in a new hope and new power.

Many have embraced the Jesus of Constantine. But this Jesus is not the Christ, born in a manger, crucified by men, exalted by God. He is another. Let every man be careful how he judges, and let every man pay heed and consider which Jesus he follows! Do we follow a triumphant Jesus, God of war and earthly power, or the Lamb of God, slain for the sins of the world, calling those who follow after to die also for the sake of others?

A few thoughts. In the OT we read numerous times God speaking to the matters of judges, leaders, rulers, those in positions of power and authority and the sort of man God wanted to be in such positions. If I understand you, and I know some believe this way, God doesn't want Christians in these roles but rather those of the world.

Well, He didn't want it that way in the OT. God wanted God-fearing men in such positions. So if now God does not want Christians in such positions, the only thing left are those of the world. So does God now want just the wicked to to fulfill such roles?

Where does it say this in the NT and where do we read that is what God wants now? Is it implied somehow? Seems to me that God thought it was very important enough to mention it often in the OT that if He has changed His thinking on it in the NT He would be pretty clear about that.

You seem, correct me if I am wrong, to be saying that as Christians we are not to judge people. Again, if I misunderstand let me know. But I think you are likely guilty of it from time to time without even knowing it. I think we all do it now and again and I think rightly so.

An example if I may. A man moves into your neighborhood and a few days later your good neighbor stops by to inform you this man just got out of jail. He has been in jail twice convicted for child molestation on numerous counts. You investigate and learn for yourself it is true.

A week or so later the man knocks on your door. He tells you he is out of work and just trying to earn some money, he can tend to your yard, do repairs if you need them and so on. Then behind you he sees your two young daughters come up and he says, oh, and I can babysit for you too.

What I want to know from you is if you will let this man babysit your two young daughters, and if not, why not?

Just to head you off, please don't tell me we are to be wise or you would let him cut your grass or whatever. You know, and I know you know the question I am asking.

i am betting you would not let the man babysit your two young daughters. But to arrive at that decision, what did you think?

did you say to yourself, I will not show the man forgiveness and mercy but rather gold his past since against him because I will not let him be alone with my two young daughters? Is that what you thought? I think probably not and yet it seems to me that was in your heart whether you admit it or not because God shows you mercy, He forgives you, He casts it far from Him and He does not remember it against you nor continue to treat you as He should based upon what you did. You however are not treating this man as God would treat you.

now you tell me where the mercy, the love, the not passing judgment is in your heart concerning this man?

one more time before you or anyone responds so that an honest answer is never truly given. I don't want to hear we are to be wise, that it would be foolish, that we are not judging, that we are somehow showing mercy, love and forgiveness and any response that is less,than honest and doesn't truly respond to my question but attempts to sidestep it.

ill give you a hint though. If I understand you correctly, your thinking on not judging is in error.

EarlyCall
Jul 27th 2014, 12:57 PM
A Christian is not to entangle himself in the affairs of this life. We are soldiers of heaven...not of earth. We are in the world but are we also OF it?

2Ti_2:4 No man that warreth (In the Spirit) entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier (of heaven).

Paul spoke of marriage and said he thought it would be good if all of us were like him - single. Thankfully, contrary to Paul's opinion, not everyone was like him or none of us would be here now. I guess if you had to boil it down, Paul didn't really have a viable idea. But he said it was his opinion only and explained that he felt that way so we could avoid many troubles, etc. that come from marriage, whereas Paul could more fully devote himself to The Lord by not being married.

Tell me something then in light of this: is getting married being entangled in the things of this world? And if not, why not? There won't be marriage in Heaven so how is it not something of this world when it will only occur here? I could ask the sMe question about our jobs and so on.

How do you explain and justify this in light of the verse you give above?

episkopos
Jul 27th 2014, 01:29 PM
Paul spoke of marriage and said he thought it would be good if all of us were like him - single. Thankfully, contrary to Paul's opinion, not everyone was like him or none of us would be here now. I guess if you had to boil it down, Paul didn't really have a viable idea. But he said it was his opinion only and explained that he felt that way so we could avoid many troubles, etc. that come from marriage, whereas Paul could more fully devote himself to The Lord by not being married.

Tell me something then in light of this: is getting married being entangled in the things of this world? And if not, why not? There won't be marriage in Heaven so how is it not something of this world when it will only occur here? I could ask the sMe question about our jobs and so on.

How do you explain and justify this in light of the verse you give above?

Paul also says that love is the better way. Being married may indeed cause one to compromise his time and devotions....and many men do end up as Adam....hiding out with his companion and living out his own life to please another person (and himself) rather than Christ. This is not always the case, however. Some people gain a spiritual companion that helps to draw closer to God.

Some will find it too burdensome to be alone. But one must be aware of the cost. What is being cultivated in the marriage?

So those who marry will have a harder time to devote time to the Lord. But it can be done. One must be wise when choosing a wife. Whose interest is being served...the kingdom of God?

So we can follow Christ AND still be married. Godly children are a good thing.

The issue is getting caught up in the affairs of this life. Our first calling must remain first. By piling on more cares of the world...as in worldly politics or nationalistic devotions...one puts himself that much farther away from Christ...so far away in fact that one cannot serve 2 masters.

So marrying is ok if one keeps the proper perspective, since one can be married in the Lord. But one cannot marry the world to Christ.

EarlyCall
Jul 27th 2014, 01:41 PM
Paul also says that love is the better way. Being married may indeed cause one to compromise his time and devotions....and many men do end up as Adam....hiding out with his companion and living out his own life to please another person (and himself) rather than Christ. This is not always the case, however. Some people gain a spiritual companion that helps to draw closer to God.

Some will find it too burdensome to be alone. But one must be aware of the cost. What is being cultivated in the marriage?

So those who marry will have a harder time to devote time to the Lord. But it can be done. One must be wise when choosing a wife. Whose interest is being served...the kingdom of God?

So we can follow Christ AND still be married. Godly children are a good thing.

The issue is getting caught up in the affairs of this life. Our first calling must remain first. By piling on more cares of the world...as in worldly politics or nationalistic devotions...one puts himself that much farther away from Christ...so far away in fact that one cannot serve 2 masters.

So marrying is ok if one keeps the proper perspective, since one can be married in the Lord. But one cannot marry the world to Christ.

I appreciate the response. I agree with what you say, however, what I find you to be doing is this:

Marriage is good and ok because after all it is a good thing if we can make it a good thing and many do, and in fact, it can with the help of our mate even draw us closer to God. I can see that being so too.

You go wrong, in my opinion when you then go on to say, but politics and nationalistic devotions take one away from Christ.

To me then, you pick and choose. You see, either marriage is a matter of this world and this life or it is not. The correct answer and the one I think you should have given is that marriage is in fact only of this world. Period. It does not occur anywhere else, so it must be of this world. You justify by saying it can be a good thing.

Well, so can politics and nationalism. Maybe you think otherwise because you can't see the good in it, but other people can. You outright claim they will take you away for God. Only if you let them, the same as marriage can do. The same as your job can do, which is another worldly thing.

Has God called some to to politics? Has God told you He does not call anyone to be in politics? I'm not asking you what you think but what you know because God spoke to you and told you?

episkopos
Jul 27th 2014, 01:53 PM
A few thoughts. In the OT we read numerous times God speaking to the matters of judges, leaders, rulers, those in positions of power and authority and the sort of man God wanted to be in such positions. If I understand you, and I know some believe this way, God doesn't want Christians in these roles but rather those of the world.

Well, He didn't want it that way in the OT. God wanted God-fearing men in such positions. So if now God does not want Christians in such positions, the only thing left are those of the world. So does God now want just the wicked to to fulfill such roles?

Where does it say this in the NT and where do we read that is what God wants now? Is it implied somehow? Seems to me that God thought it was very important enough to mention it often in the OT that if He has changed His thinking on it in the NT He would be pretty clear about that.

You seem, correct me if I am wrong, to be saying that as Christians we are not to judge people. Again, if I misunderstand let me know. But I think you are likely guilty of it from time to time without even knowing it. I think we all do it now and again and I think rightly so.

An example if I may. A man moves into your neighborhood and a few days later your good neighbor stops by to inform you this man just got out of jail. He has been in jail twice convicted for child molestation on numerous counts. You investigate and learn for yourself it is true.

A week or so later the man knocks on your door. He tells you he is out of work and just trying to earn some money, he can tend to your yard, do repairs if you need them and so on. Then behind you he sees your two young daughters come up and he says, oh, and I can babysit for you too.

What I want to know from you is if you will let this man babysit your two young daughters, and if not, why not?

Just to head you off, please don't tell me we are to be wise or you would let him cut your grass or whatever. You know, and I know you know the question I am asking.

i am betting you would not let the man babysit your two young daughters. But to arrive at that decision, what did you think?

did you say to yourself, I will not show the man forgiveness and mercy but rather gold his past since against him because I will not let him be alone with my two young daughters? Is that what you thought? I think probably not and yet it seems to me that was in your heart whether you admit it or not because God shows you mercy, He forgives you, He casts it far from Him and He does not remember it against you nor continue to treat you as He should based upon what you did. You however are not treating this man as God would treat you.

now you tell me where the mercy, the love, the not passing judgment is in your heart concerning this man?

one more time before you or anyone responds so that an honest answer is never truly given. I don't want to hear we are to be wise, that it would be foolish, that we are not judging, that we are somehow showing mercy, love and forgiveness and any response that is less,than honest and doesn't truly respond to my question but attempts to sidestep it.

ill give you a hint though. If I understand you correctly, your thinking on not judging is in error.

If a person has a difficulty with alcohol and you abstain from wine for his sake...will he feel judged by you? We are not to judge in a negative and condemning way...we are to be at peace with all men as much as possible. Love uses a good judgment. But those who judge others from a lack of love do so to create barriers.

Joh_7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

episkopos
Jul 27th 2014, 02:01 PM
I appreciate the response. I agree with what you say, however, what I find you to be doing is this:

Marriage is good and ok because after all it is a good thing if we can make it a good thing and many do, and in fact, it can with the help of our mate even draw us closer to God. I can see that being so too.

You go wrong, in my opinion when you then go on to say, but politics and nationalistic devotions take one away from Christ.

A marriage can be founded in the Spirit. But getting entangled in the affairs of this world are just that...


To me then, you pick and choose. You see, either marriage is a matter of this world and this life or it is not. The correct answer and the one I think you should have given is that marriage is in fact only of this world. Period. It does not occur anywhere else, so it must be of this world. You justify by saying it can be a good thing.

Marriage is in this world but it doesn't have to be OF this world.


Well, so can politics and nationalism. Maybe you think otherwise because you can't see the good in it, but other people can. You outright claim they will take you away for God. Only if you let them, the same as marriage can do. The same as your job can do, which is another worldly thing.

Joh_15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

A worldly person can serve the worldly agenda...no problem. Not so a man in Christ. We are to operate in love. But that love must not be directed at the worldly system of seeking happiness and order outside the life of Christ. They are diametrically opposed to one another.

1Jn_2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.





Has God called some to to politics? Has God told you He does not call anyone to be in politics? I'm not asking you what you think but what you know because God spoke to you and told you?

I gave Nelson Mandela as a peculiar exception. The nation needed him to bring peace...and he wasn't running for office. So if you are voted in without running...then it is possible that this could be from God. Such a situation does not demand that you be conformed to the world.

paidforinfull
Jul 27th 2014, 02:43 PM
I gave Nelson Mandela as a peculiar exception. The nation needed him to bring peace...and he wasn't running for office. So if you are voted in without running...then it is possible that this could be from God. Such a situation does not demand that you be conformed to the world.

Hey epi - first off, just a quick note: Nelson Mandela was the elected head of the ANC party. In SA the head/leader of a party automatically becomes president if his party comes into power - it works differently from the US election system. (I'm South African so I understand how the election process works in SA.)

Now, back to topic: I see being 'in this world but not of it' as follows:

I believe that, since we are in Christ, and since He is in Heaven, we are right now also positionally in Heaven. We live and move and have our being in Him right now (Acts 17:28). Unfortunately we also have to live and move and exist in this physical world. We have to eat, sleep, work, raise our children, etc. etc. right here right now. In essence, we are hybrid beings. It is very difficult to function in the physical if we try to spiritualize everything - even Jesus had to eat. Even Paul had to work (I understand he was a tentmaker).

So yes, we, as Christians are different; we think differently and we act differently. But we are still right here right now. It's not easy 'balancing' our two opposing positions, but with God's help we will make it.

I'm going to end this post with the following Scripture verse:

Eccl. 7:16-18 - "Be not overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself? Be not overly wicked, neither be a fool. Why should you die before your time? It is good that you should take hold of this, and from that withhold not your hand, for the one who fears God shall come out from both of them." (ESV)

Balance is key.

Now, I know you'd probably not agree with me, and that is OK.

Blessings to you,
B.

EarlyCall
Jul 27th 2014, 03:25 PM
If a person has a difficulty with alcohol and you abstain from wine for his sake...will he feel judged by you? We are not to judge in a negative and condemning way...we are to be at peace with all men as much as possible. Love uses a good judgment. But those who judge others from a lack of love do so to create barriers.

Joh_7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Yes, and that is the point. But you see, when some take scripture about not judging and try to use it to say, we are not judge others, they do the scripture injustice they have it wrong and that is what I am pointing out. Still, it is what some do.

fewarechosen
Jul 27th 2014, 04:40 PM
To the pacifists...

I'm ok with how you believe for the most part, but most definitely not entirely.


So let's say I am legally allowed to carry a gun (actually, anyone in Ohio can do so openly where permitted), and I come upon a little seven year girl being raped and murdered by some monster. What do I do? Pray that God intervenes and saves her?

Really? I should think to hear God say, you stop the guy, you're the one with the gun! Don't try to shove such a thing off on God and wash your hands of the mess.

The very thought of such a thing makes me sick and angry.

I think the term pacifist is misleading, perhaps it should be - To those who think the weapons of our war are not carnal

hypotheticals are counterproductive because they are just that hypothetical. let me try to illustrate.

1 someone has a gun and walks upon a guy trying to rape a woman, he pulls the gun but is to slow and the rapist shoots him in the face and rapes the woman anyway.

2 a Christian only armed with faith walks upon same scene, rapist flees because he is scared.

now to see what paul has to say about what a saints weapons are and arent


2Co 10:3

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

2Co 10:4

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

2Co 10:5

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

paul clearly states the weapons of a saint are not carnal, which means the weapons are not physical they have nothing to do with being physically carnal.

and we don't wage war in the same manner as the flesh, aka we dont stab people with swords.

a saints weapons are mighty through God and are built for casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God.

paul lays out what the weapons are and what they are used for very clearly, doesn't mention any carnal weapons at all, but just because some knows that a saints weapons are not carnal don't assume they are pacifists, they just use different weapons.


Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

episkopos
Jul 27th 2014, 04:45 PM
I think the term pacifist is misleading, perhaps it should be - To those who think the weapons of our war are not carnal

hypotheticals are counterproductive because they are just that hypothetical. let me try to illustrate.

1 someone has a gun and walks upon a guy trying to rape a woman, he pulls the gun but is to slow and the rapist shoots him in the face and rapes the woman anyway.

2 a Christian only armed with faith walks upon same scene, rapist flees because he is scared.

now to see what paul has to say about what a saints weapons are and arent


2Co 10:3

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

2Co 10:4

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

2Co 10:5

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

paul clearly states the weapons of a saint are not carnal, which means the weapons are not physical they have nothing to do with being physically carnal.

and we don't wage war in the same manner as the flesh, aka we dont stab people with swords.

a saints weapons are mighty through God and are built for casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God.

paul lays out what the weapons are and what they are used for very clearly, doesn't mention any carnal weapons at all, but just because some knows that a saints weapons are not carnal don't assume they are pacifists, they just use different weapons.


Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amen! Hypotheticals leave out God.

A Christian is armed with the truth and faith in God. God can do more than men can. We can rebuke the devil...or just shoot whoever has been captured to his will. As Christians we have the ministry of reconciliation and deliverance. Shooting people with imbalances defeats the purpose of having a ministry of peace.

We are to love others as we have been loved. Did we get shot for the things we did? Or were we guided into Christ through love?

We should do likewise with others.

Aviyah
Jul 27th 2014, 06:00 PM
Self-defense/executions/killing/violence cannot be automatically sinful, otherwise God commanded people to sin plenty of times in the OT. I'm not sure how someone can say it's wrong to defend yourself or the helpless when being attacked. It does no good to say to the hungry, "I'll pray for your hunger," if you refuse to give them food. Total pacifism is absurd.

EarlyCall
Jul 27th 2014, 08:47 PM
I think the term pacifist is misleading, perhaps it should be - To those who think the weapons of our war are not carnal

hypotheticals are counterproductive because they are just that hypothetical. let me try to illustrate.

1 someone has a gun and walks upon a guy trying to rape a woman, he pulls the gun but is to slow and the rapist shoots him in the face and rapes the woman anyway.

2 a Christian only armed with faith walks upon same scene, rapist flees because he is scared.



Do you feel the story of the Good Samaritan was counterproductive? Certainly it wasn't as silly as what you present above, but then again, neither was what I presented. Maybe that is what separates counterproductive from worthwhile.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you can make a point this way, so I stopped reading your post where I end the quote of it.

Humility
Jul 28th 2014, 02:49 AM
episkopos---

Hmmmm

bish·op (bshp)
n.
1. A high-ranking Christian cleric, in modern churches usually in charge of a diocese and in some churches regarded as having received the highest ordination in unbroken succession from the apostles.
2. Abbr. B Games A usually miter-shaped chess piece that can move diagonally across any number of unoccupied spaces.
3. Mulled port spiced with oranges, sugar, and cloves.

You do have an validated Ministry???

Boo
Jul 28th 2014, 07:26 AM
A Christian is not to entangle himself in the affairs of this life. We are soldiers of heaven...not of earth. We are in the world but are we also OF it?

2Ti_2:4 No man that warreth (In the Spirit) entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier (of heaven).

And somehow Paul's words to Timothy are an instruction for us. Well, since apparently Paul was giving encouragement to Timothy - for a situation of which we are not aware - we must actually see what this advice is and determine if it fits our real life situations.

That being the case, what do we think entanglement in the affairs of this life means?

We still have to earn a living, we still have to eat, we still have to sleep, and we were put on this planet to populate the earth and raise Godly children. This is all behavior in the affairs of this life. We can stop doing all this when we die. So, just how are we supposed to do according to Paul's instructions to Timothy - especially since we don't know what the question of Timothy was and to what event Paul was referring?

Meanwhile, I will still go to work, still feed my family, and attempt to teach my children and grandchildren. You know, the affairs of this world.

episkopos
Jul 28th 2014, 02:34 PM
episkopos---

Hmmmm

bish·op (bshp)
n.
1. A high-ranking Christian cleric, in modern churches usually in charge of a diocese and in some churches regarded as having received the highest ordination in unbroken succession from the apostles.
2. Abbr. B Games A usually miter-shaped chess piece that can move diagonally across any number of unoccupied spaces.
3. Mulled port spiced with oranges, sugar, and cloves.

You do have an validated Ministry???

Validated by whom?

episkopos
Jul 28th 2014, 02:37 PM
And somehow Paul's words to Timothy are an instruction for us. Well, since apparently Paul was giving encouragement to Timothy - for a situation of which we are not aware - we must actually see what this advice is and determine if it fits our real life situations.

That being the case, what do we think entanglement in the affairs of this life means?

We still have to earn a living, we still have to eat, we still have to sleep, and we were put on this planet to populate the earth and raise Godly children. This is all behavior in the affairs of this life. We can stop doing all this when we die. So, just how are we supposed to do according to Paul's instructions to Timothy - especially since we don't know what the question of Timothy was and to what event Paul was referring?

Meanwhile, I will still go to work, still feed my family, and attempt to teach my children and grandchildren. You know, the affairs of this world.

It is by what power we are living by. We are to seek the kingdom first. We are to bring another dimension to what we are living. We are bringing the love joy and peace of God into every situation we encounter.

episkopos
Jul 28th 2014, 02:59 PM
As ambassadors for Christ we are to bring a whole new level of peace to the world. It is according to the Spirit of God. We are to bring the love of Christ into the world. As such we are being the light in the world...a continuation of the ministry of Jesus Christ. We testify of a new life lived through the Spirit of God. Jesus came to bring new life....an eternal spiritual life that is according to the power of God. We are to see this kingdom spread and becoming rooted by making disciples who also live by the Spirit. In this way a revolution of joy and peace can displace the evil we see in the world. We overcome evil by the Spirit.

Not by power nor by might...but by the Spirit of God we overcome the world and be a catalyst to reconciling the world back to God. This is the ministry of Christ.

Boo
Jul 29th 2014, 08:14 AM
It is by what power we are living by. We are to seek the kingdom first. We are to bring another dimension to what we are living. We are bringing the love joy and peace of God into every situation we encounter.

The problem with all of this is that now we are speaking in code. This doesn't work well when people seek actual answers to their questions. When people have questions down at the flesh and blood level of daily life, it is real to them. Spiritual answers don't solve their immediate problems. They provide guidance on future outlooks and selecting directions for tomorrow.

A man about to fall off a cliff if looking for a rope, not an explanation of how to seek God's face.

We are born into entanglement in life. We must live in this world and learn how to avoid being "of it." In the meantime, direct answers are what some seek.

Neanias
Jul 29th 2014, 11:59 AM
A few thoughts. In the OT we read numerous times God speaking to the matters of judges, leaders, rulers, those in positions of power and authority and the sort of man God wanted to be in such positions. If I understand you, and I know some believe this way, God doesn't want Christians in these roles but rather those of the world.

Well, He didn't want it that way in the OT. God wanted God-fearing men in such positions. So if now God does not want Christians in such positions, the only thing left are those of the world. So does God now want just the wicked to to fulfill such roles?

Where does it say this in the NT and where do we read that is what God wants now? Is it implied somehow? Seems to me that God thought it was very important enough to mention it often in the OT that if He has changed His thinking on it in the NT He would be pretty clear about that.

God had leaders, rulers, judges over His people. I do not see a pattern where God is setting his people to rule over all in this life. In the OT, he wanted leaders over Israel. There are cases like Joseph who became a mighty man in Egypt. But then God had a very specific purpose in this to bring the descendants of Abraham into captivity, and he used it for this. If you believe that God wanted his people to become political leaders and rulers in the OT over anyone but his own people, you will have to show directly from the Word because I don't see it.

In the NT, God's people are no longer a physical nation, but all who follow Jesus. So being a leader is now being a spiritual man who is servant of all among the believers. Nowhere in the NT either do I see it encouraged to becoming political leaders in the world.


You seem, correct me if I am wrong, to be saying that as Christians we are not to judge people. Again, if I misunderstand let me know. But I think you are likely guilty of it from time to time without even knowing it. I think we all do it now and again and I think rightly so.

An example if I may. A man moves into your neighborhood and a few days later your good neighbor stops by to inform you this man just got out of jail. He has been in jail twice convicted for child molestation on numerous counts. You investigate and learn for yourself it is true.

A week or so later the man knocks on your door. He tells you he is out of work and just trying to earn some money, he can tend to your yard, do repairs if you need them and so on. Then behind you he sees your two young daughters come up and he says, oh, and I can babysit for you too.

What I want to know from you is if you will let this man babysit your two young daughters, and if not, why not?

Just to head you off, please don't tell me we are to be wise or you would let him cut your grass or whatever. You know, and I know you know the question I am asking.

i am betting you would not let the man babysit your two young daughters. But to arrive at that decision, what did you think?

did you say to yourself, I will not show the man forgiveness and mercy but rather gold his past since against him because I will not let him be alone with my two young daughters? Is that what you thought? I think probably not and yet it seems to me that was in your heart whether you admit it or not because God shows you mercy, He forgives you, He casts it far from Him and He does not remember it against you nor continue to treat you as He should based upon what you did. You however are not treating this man as God would treat you.

now you tell me where the mercy, the love, the not passing judgment is in your heart concerning this man?

one more time before you or anyone responds so that an honest answer is never truly given. I don't want to hear we are to be wise, that it would be foolish, that we are not judging, that we are somehow showing mercy, love and forgiveness and any response that is less,than honest and doesn't truly respond to my question but attempts to sidestep it.

ill give you a hint though. If I understand you correctly, your thinking on not judging is in error.

Judge not lest you be judged. No, we are not to judge in this sense. But that way I understand judging and the way you do seems very different.

Is it love and mercy to invite an alcoholic over for a drink of wine? It's foolishness I would say, and temptation. Of course I wouldn't let the man baby sit my daughters. Turning down a man's offer has nothing to do with judging him.

How have you equated turning this man's offer down with judging? How can it be equated with 'resist not an evil man', which was more closely the subject of conversation?

This seems to be the usual stumbling block in these conversations. People hear that someone believes they should not defend themselves using violence, and then they think the person is saying we should let everything and anything into our lives. The example you use does not include an attack of an evil man, a slap on the cheek, a shirt being stolen, or anything like it.

If I choose to bring my car to a certain garage, am I judging all the other garages? Is that the kind of 'judge not' that Jesus is speaking of?

episkopos
Jul 29th 2014, 12:04 PM
The problem with all of this is that now we are speaking in code.

Is the love joy and peace of God not clear enough?



This doesn't work well when people seek actual answers to their questions.

The real answers are spiritual. If someone wants to know something useful for plumbing one can look up a practical solution in a manual. But the answers in life are to look to God who gives men His strength.


When people have questions down at the flesh and blood level of daily life, it is real to them. Spiritual answers don't solve their immediate problems. They provide guidance on future outlooks and selecting directions for tomorrow.

I am not talking about sunday religion that one puts on and off. We are to walk constantly by the power that raised Jesus from the dead. If we seek after the kingdom God will fix the mundane things. We are to focus on Christ...in a real practical way.


A man about to fall off a cliff if looking for a rope, not an explanation of how to seek God's face.

Neither will he log into the forum...


We are born into entanglement in life. We must live in this world and learn how to avoid being "of it." In the meantime, direct answers are what some seek.

Start by believing that with God all things are possible...then believe into Christ. We can only be of heaven when we walk in the power of heaven. We are OF earth when we walk in the same power as other men. Faith is our vehicle that gets us to where Christ is.

Hepzibah
Jul 30th 2014, 08:36 AM
I believe in non violent resistence, for me that is. I would not pull a trigger because God tells me to love my enemies and not cause them harm, and that I have no right to end a man's life no matter what he has done in it. At the point of violence from an aggressor, I feel as sure as possible that I would turn to God to help me or to have mercy on those who are also in danger, though they may not be depending like me for protection from God alone and I would use a non violent means to avoid the attack. The Quaker pioneers in America, used to leave their doors unlocked and the natives would not dare to enter, in case they had some supernatural powers to enable them to be without fear.

For the rest, I leave it up to men who are operating in the world's system of an eye for an eye, as they have no choice but violent resistence. It is not for me to say that they must trust in God for help in time of need, that must come from their faith and if that faith in His help is absent, or if they do not know what they would do in such a situation, then they will act accorrding to the world's rules. It is not up to one man to tell another what he must do in this situation. The law of the land is there for those who walk not in the Spirit. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

Jesus was in the same mind when He commanded to buy a sword. If Pentecost has not come for us individually, whereby we leave the rule of the world, then we remain under the alternative ruling, and I believe that God will still help that man due to His unbound mercy, but His rule stands for those walking in the Spirit who do not fulfill the laws of the flesh and who I believe will not join armed forces.

For those in the armed forces, it is up to them and their consciences. Althought they may feel that God is blessing them, and indeed they may see His mercies, I do not believe that it is His higher will His people who are joined to Him but it must be an individual decision to drop the sword and leave if they enter into the kingdom, meaning that they become one in the Spirit, but the timing of it is not my business and I cannot know a man's spiritual standing.

Boo
Jul 30th 2014, 08:42 AM
Is the love joy and peace of God not clear enough?

The real answers are spiritual. If someone wants to know something useful for plumbing one can look up a practical solution in a manual. But the answers in life are to look to God who gives men His strength.

I am not talking about sunday religion that one puts on and off. We are to walk constantly by the power that raised Jesus from the dead. If we seek after the kingdom God will fix the mundane things. We are to focus on Christ...in a real practical way.

Neither will he log into the forum...

Start by believing that with God all things are possible...then believe into Christ. We can only be of heaven when we walk in the power of heaven. We are OF earth when we walk in the same power as other men. Faith is our vehicle that gets us to where Christ is.

I think we are not speaking of helping the same types of people. We are not addressing the same level of Christianity.

I think this train has jumped the tracks.

episkopos
Jul 30th 2014, 12:47 PM
I think we are not speaking of helping the same types of people. We are not addressing the same level of Christianity.

I think this train has jumped the tracks.

We cannot water down the spiritual message of Christ...we can show it with our lives...that is the translation. The spin-off of holiness is righteousness like the heat that comes from the flame. Few will get to know Jesus Christ in a personal way...but the witness of those few can affect the way the world is. A light in the world still chases out the darkness even if the darkness doesn't comprehend what the light is or what the light is doing. People will wonder at the love joy and peace of the brethren and change the way they see the world. But most will never come into contact with the King of kings themselves. They are affected by those who carry the flame. So it is futile to try explaining the life of God to the world...we have to demonstrate it for them. They will understand that.

Humility
Jul 30th 2014, 01:21 PM
??? Semantics ???

I humbly apologize, My error.

Let Me re-phrase My question (with Your indulgence Sir)...

Succinctly ,are You a Bishop?

Humility
Jul 30th 2014, 01:24 PM
Validated by whom???? Semantics ???

I humbly apologize, My error.

Let Me re-phrase My question (with Your indulgence Sir)...

Succinctly ,are You a Bishop?

episkopos
Jul 30th 2014, 01:36 PM
??? Semantics ???

I humbly apologize, My error.

Let Me re-phrase My question (with Your indulgence Sir)...

Succinctly ,are You a Bishop?

No...the function of an overseer does not have a fancy title like that. I simply oversee a fellowship. Episkope also means a visitation and an inspection. So then one who has been visited and inspected by God can then help the body of Christ out in that capacity. That is the function of the overseer...to see that the brethren are approved of God. So I have been entrusted with that calling....from God Himself.

LandShark
Jul 30th 2014, 01:51 PM
No...the function of an overseer does not have a fancy title like that. I simply oversee a fellowship. Episkope also means a visitation and an inspection. So then one who has been visited and inspected by God can then help the body of Christ out in that capacity. That is the function of the overseer...to see that the brethren are approved of God. So I have been entrusted with that calling....from God Himself.

Interesting, it hadn't occurred to me that Episcopalian has that root. Nevertheless, sometimes Epi you make a big deal out of small things. Have you ever looked up the word Bishop?

bishop (n.) Old English bisceop "bishop, high priest (Jewish or pagan)," from Late Latin episcopus, from Greek episkopos "watcher, overseer," a title for various government officials, later taken over in a Church sense, from epi- "over" (see epi-) + skopos "one that watches, one that looks after; a guardian, protector" (see scope (n.1)). Given a specific sense in the Church, but the word also was used in the New Testament as a descriptive title for elders, and continues as such in some non-hierarchical Christian sects.

Source Here (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=bishop&searchmode=none).

A word is simply a symbol used to convey an idea. They are neutered in the sense that they are neither good nor evil, they are a symbol used by those who might be good or evil, but they themselves are simply designed to convey a thought. And "bishop" while used ALSO (and mainly) to point to an office, carries the same meaning as the word you prefer. At my congregation I (and two others) are called elders, yet I know of a Protestant church not far away that use bishop for the same position. It doesn't matter... the words carry the same idea.

episkopos
Jul 30th 2014, 02:42 PM
Interesting, it hadn't occurred to me that Episcopalian has that root. Nevertheless, sometimes Epi you make a big deal out of small things. Have you ever looked up the word Bishop?

bishop (n.) Old English bisceop "bishop, high priest (Jewish or pagan)," from Late Latin episcopus, from Greek episkopos "watcher, overseer," a title for various government officials, later taken over in a Church sense, from epi- "over" (see epi-) + skopos "one that watches, one that looks after; a guardian, protector" (see scope (n.1)). Given a specific sense in the Church, but the word also was used in the New Testament as a descriptive title for elders, and continues as such in some non-hierarchical Christian sects.

Source Here (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=bishop&searchmode=none).

A word is simply a symbol used to convey an idea. They are neutered in the sense that they are neither good nor evil, they are a symbol used by those who might be good or evil, but they themselves are simply designed to convey a thought. And "bishop" while used ALSO (and mainly) to point to an office, carries the same meaning as the word you prefer. At my congregation I (and two others) are called elders, yet I know of a Protestant church not far away that use bishop for the same position. It doesn't matter... the words carry the same idea.


As with all biblical things...there are greater depths of meaning to be fathomed out. The truth goes beyond words...it is in power.

Luk_19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Notice the word "visitation".

Here is what the word is from the Greek..

G1984
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
ep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian “episcopate”: - the office of a “bishop”, bishoprick, visitation.


God approves ministries. He inspects and visits those He sends. Those who are sent out then also visit and inspect....to the standard set forth by God.

LandShark
Jul 30th 2014, 02:55 PM
As with all biblical things...there are greater depths of meaning to be fathomed out. The truth goes beyond words...it is in power.

Luk_19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Notice the word "visitation".

Here is what the word is from the Greek..

G1984
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
ep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian “episcopate”: - the office of a “bishop”, bishoprick, visitation.


God approves ministries. He inspects and visits those He sends. Those who are sent out then also visit and inspect....to the standard set forth by God.

I don't know why you are going to all this trouble. You demeaned to a degree the word bishop and I simply showed you that etymologically the word derives from a word you accept for that God given position. Why get all seminary like and muddy something so simple? It is a word that etymologically means the same thing episkope means! This is where you make mountains out of mole hills and why discussion is often frustrating.

episkopos
Jul 30th 2014, 03:09 PM
I don't know why you are going to all this trouble. You demeaned to a degree the word bishop and I simply showed you that etymologically the word derives from a word you accept for that God given position. Why get all seminary like and muddy something so simple? It is a word that etymologically means the same thing episkope means! This is where you make mountains out of mole hills and why discussion is often frustrating.

That all depends...Are we studying the bible in order to have a simple categorization of things...or to know God better?

I have laid out a simple and biblical foundation for body ministry. We compare spiritual things to spiritual things.

Humility
Jul 30th 2014, 03:17 PM
As with all biblical things...there are greater depths of meaning to be fathomed out. The truth goes beyond words...it is in power.

Luk_19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Notice the word "visitation".

Here is what the word is from the Greek..

G1984
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
ep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian “episcopate”: - the office of a “bishop”, bishoprick, visitation.


God approves ministries. He inspects and visits those He sends. Those who are sent out then also visit and inspect....to the standard set forth by God.

Hmmm ,
As an Bishop?

Could You Please translate Bishop into the verbal Hebrew? or Chaldee ???

Most certainly no lack of respect intended or implied Sir.

LandShark
Jul 30th 2014, 03:21 PM
That all depends...Are we studying the bible in order to have a simple categorization of things...or to know God better?

I have laid out a simple and biblical foundation for body ministry. We compare spiritual things to spiritual things.

Again, you are, to me, speaking about something now that isn't even what we were talking about. You said the word bishop is wrong to be used and I pointed out it means exactly the same thing as episkope. Perhaps you can't get beyond how the RCC uses the word, but that doesn't affect me. The word bishop means what it means, it is a word that derives from episkope which is a word you clearly have no problem with.

episkopos
Jul 30th 2014, 04:43 PM
Again, you are, to me, speaking about something now that isn't even what we were talking about. You said the word bishop is wrong to be used and I pointed out it means exactly the same thing as episkope. Perhaps you can't get beyond how the RCC uses the word, but that doesn't affect me. The word bishop means what it means, it is a word that derives from episkope which is a word you clearly have no problem with.

I steer clear of labels that take away from the biblical meaning of the word. Who calls a visitation from God...a "bishop"? If we disconnect the word episkope from it's root meaning...then we could end up with a dead ecclesiastical system with it's origins from men...rather than the biblical meaning of an experience and authority from God.

LandShark
Jul 30th 2014, 04:47 PM
I steer clear of labels that take away from the biblical meaning of the word. Who calls a visitation from God...a "bishop"? If we disconnect the word episkope from it's root meaning...then we could end up with a dead ecclesiastical system with it's origins from men...rather than the biblical meaning of an experience and authority from God.

This is either game playing or showing a lack of semiotic awareness on your part. If you use the name episkope (Episkopos) as your title, even here in this forum, it has NO DIFFERENCE in meaning than one who might use bishop. It means the same thing and I have shared it etymological origin with you. Whether you accept that or not, no matter at this point. But you are making more out of a WORD than is necessary.

episkopos
Jul 30th 2014, 04:53 PM
Hmmm ,
As an Bishop?

Could You Please translate Bishop into the verbal Hebrew? or Chaldee ???

Most certainly no lack of respect intended or implied Sir.

The word episkope in the Hebrew is Pekoudah

H6486
פּקדּה
peqûddâh
pek-ood-daw'
Feminine passive participle of H6485; visitation (in many senses, chiefly official): - account, (that have the) charge, custody, that which . . . laid up, numbers, office (-r), ordering, oversight, + prison, reckoning, visitation.

Again in the Hebrew oversight is based on visitation...from God.

So in the world an overseer is like a foreman bossing people around. But biblically an overseer is one who sees further...into the Spirit...than others so that he may guide the flock of God to green pastures.

The bible also relates that all should aspire to have a visitation from God...and not a desire to hold an ecclesiastical office. So then he who desires to be inspected by God (or visited) desires a good thing. Notice the translation..

1Ti_3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire episkope (translated usually as the office of a bishop) visitation (or an inspection), he desireth a good work.

BrianW
Jul 30th 2014, 04:56 PM
This thread has to get back on track or it's going to be closed. First and only warning.

Boo
Jul 31st 2014, 09:51 AM
We cannot water down the spiritual message of Christ...we can show it with our lives...that is the translation. The spin-off of holiness is righteousness like the heat that comes from the flame. Few will get to know Jesus Christ in a personal way...but the witness of those few can affect the way the world is. A light in the world still chases out the darkness even if the darkness doesn't comprehend what the light is or what the light is doing. People will wonder at the love joy and peace of the brethren and change the way they see the world. But most will never come into contact with the King of kings themselves. They are affected by those who carry the flame. So it is futile to try explaining the life of God to the world...we have to demonstrate it for them. They will understand that.

And here is where we part tracks.

Apparently, I have gotten you to think that I am doing something incorrectly. I don't know how, but that where our train wreck happened.

I "water down" nothing.

ProDeo
Aug 2nd 2014, 09:13 PM
So I have been entrusted with that calling....from God Himself.
Can you elaborate on the calling?

EarlyCall
Aug 3rd 2014, 12:29 PM
So in the world an overseer is like a foreman bossing people around. But biblically an overseer is one who sees further...into the Spirit...than others so that he may guide the flock of God to green pastures.



Yea, I can see this in you, this belief you have about yourself seeing more deeply and more fully into the word of God and having a better understanding than the rest of us.

It seems to me though, and this is just my thinking, that maybe something else is going on in this thread... with you. In other words, the topic of the thread has been debated, argued, hashed to death, the dead horse has been beaten thrice over - at least, and still you march on defending your position, without relent, never tiring, never backing down, and never giving an inch.

It seems to me then the topic of the thread is really more likely a cover for something else. I saw another thread you started closely related to this, and the same thing was taking place, to which I refused to engage and merely commented, in jest and with sarcasm that I just loved reruns.

I recall when Paul visited Athens and engaged some of the folk there concerning God, but he did not stay long because he saw they wanted debate for the sake of debate but were not interested in receiving the gospel. And so he moved on.

Do you see any contrast between you in this thread and Paul? I do, but perhaps your calling will enable you to set me straight once more.

There was a time for me on this board when I would engage others in debate in threads and I would not relent, because you see, I was right and they, those that disagreed with me, were quite simply wrong, and I was not going to back down and I was not going to relent and I could and did go on and on and on.

But I came to realize that underneath that lie a monster named pride, and so i stopped. These days, and for some good time now, I will engage and I will debate, but I will only do so to a point.

It is pride that causes us to refuse to break it off because it offends our self, but it is humility that says, we have engaged in debate and discussion, we disagree, and that is ok, but I am going to walk away from it now because if I do not, it then becomes about me and not the topic; the topic becomes merely the cover under which I fight for my rightness and to convince you that you are wrong.

Do respond if you like, do tell me I am wrong if you like and I won't argue with you about it because this is just what I think I see and it is what I believe, and that doesn't mean I am right.

But, if you really believe in your calling, then it is my belief your greatest enemy is pride and you may want a visitation of humility. That's my take for what it may be worth. Do whatever you want with it.