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Paul Silas
Aug 12th 2014, 07:16 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

divaD
Aug 12th 2014, 07:22 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.


I haven't given this a whole lot of thought as of yet, but off the top of my head my guess would be that it simply wasn't the right time. Clearly 2 comings were always the plan all along. What they wanted at the time didn't fit with the first coming and what was supposed to be accomplished during it.

LandShark
Aug 12th 2014, 07:31 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

My take is simply that he was not to be King yet. Yes he is King of our lives if you want to look at it that way... but his mission had MANY aspects to it, and he was busy being the lamb at that point. When he left he assumed the role of High Priest making intercession for us. And when he returns, he returns as King, King of kings to be exact. :) So he removed himself because it wasn't his time yet. Blessings!

Slug1
Aug 12th 2014, 07:35 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.To help you with answering this, here is a great scripture to begin at:

Acts 1: 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

bunnymuldare
Aug 12th 2014, 07:37 PM
I agree with diva and landshark. It was not time for him to be King.

Most of the Jews were looking for a King as their Messiah. They wanted him to defeat the Romans.
But that's not why he came the first time.

bunnymuldare
Aug 12th 2014, 07:40 PM
And I agree with Slug.
Sorry, we crossed in the mail.

petrobb
Aug 12th 2014, 08:03 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus had come to introduce the Kingly Rule of God from Heaven over which He was king. It was a Kingly Rule which would be built up from those who responded to Him and His teaching. It was a kingly Rule that required full obedience and walking in the way of love and humility. The crowds wanted a belligerent fighting king who would rid them of Roman oppression, would feed them by miracles so that they would not have to put so much effort into farming, and Who would make life easy for them. The two ideas were in total conflict.

Had He become king in the way they wanted there would have been no inner transformations, and no one trained to take His Good News to the world. It was not only not the right time but also not the right way. It was in effect what Satan had offered Him during the temptations.

Aviyah
Aug 12th 2014, 08:10 PM
I totally agree with the reply, actually.

divaD
Aug 12th 2014, 08:13 PM
It was in effect what Satan had offered Him during the temptations.



The ironic thing about it, Jesus still gets all the kingdoms of the world anyway, and didn't have to bow to satan in order to obtain them.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This of course is meaning still future unless one is preterist or something.

petrobb
Aug 12th 2014, 09:10 PM
The ironic thing about it, Jesus still gets all the kingdoms of the world anyway, and didn't have to bow to satan in order to obtain them.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This of course is meaning still future unless one is preterist or something.

Although Satan did not know it Jesus was ruler of the universe along with His Father. He was king in Jeshurun (Deut 33.5). He ruled over Israel (1 Sam 8.7). He ruled over the nations (Psalm 99; 47.2; 48.1-2; 93.1; 95.3; 97.1, 6). He came into the world as King. He ruled over the Kingly Rule of God on earth, a spiritual kingdom in the world but not of the world. After His resurrection he was made both LORD and Messianic king (Acts 2.30, 36). But you people who claim to take the Scriptures literally deny His words.

As King He rules in heaven (Rev 5), and He rules over His people on earth who reign with Him (Rev 5.10). He controls the destiny of the nations who are rebellious against His kingship. Thus He opens the seven seals and is the cause of all that follows. He IS KIng of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Tim 6.16). His coming will simply reveal the fact (Rev 19.16). HE IS KING NOW. The Scripture you cite is only the final conquest of the nations when He brings about His final judgment.

It is not only to Israel that blindness has happened in part.

Walls
Aug 12th 2014, 10:18 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

You have seemingly posed two questions;

Your own - "why did our Lord Jesus do this"?
Is the answer to the post by a third party correct?


Our Lord Jesus was presented to Israel as their King NOT based on miracles. He was presented on (1) His credentials, and (2) His fulfillment of prophecy. (1) The consensus for taxation in Luke 2:1-4 established Joseph and Mary's lineage. Even a cursory check by the scribes (who were so good at being accurate with these things) would have proved His claim to Israel's throne. (2) Our Lord Jesus fulfilled over 330 prophecies. Miracles were only a small part of these like calming the storm (Ps.107:29). Israel showed that miracles are the WORST reason to establish a king. They were witness to ALL those miracles of Egypt AND the Wilderness and still lived in rebellion and unbelief. Our Lord Jesus, unlike some of our modern-day Preachers, who gather large congregations with a diet of miracles, shunned fame from miracles because He knew how fleeting an effect they have when FAITH is required.
The third party's answer was wrong. Our Lord Jesus was presented to Israel as THEIR king. That is, King of the Jews - NOT King of Kings. King of kings has to do with the nations. The Kingdom of Israel is the establishment of the nation of Israel under a certain King. The Kingdom of the Heavens is the establishment of heavenly rule OVER THE WHOLE EARTH (as our Lord's prayer in Matthew 6:10 shows). Certain posters on this Forum cannot tell the difference between the two and mix them. When our Lord Jesus was presented to Israel it was as King of the Jews. No doubt He would have extended His rule over the whole earth had Israel accepted Him. But initially He would ONLY be King of the Jews, which has to do exclusively with Israel. When He said in John 18:36 that His Kingdom was not of this world, He did not mean that He would not be King of the earth. The word "world" in the Greek is "kosmos" which can mean the earth in creation, but strictly it is "the adornment", or "the orderly arrangement of things". What He was saying that His Kingdom was not ordered like the Roman Empire, nor the rule of the Pharisees with their politics and corruption. Our Lord's Kingdom is, "... not meat and drink; but (1) righteousness, and (2) peace, and (3) joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17). The present world order, and that of the Romans and Pharisees is (1) unrighteousness, (2) war and strife, and (3) unhappiness and depression.

The bible abundantly declares that the Kingdoms of this world will become those of our Lord Jesus (e.g. Dan.2:44; Rev.11:15). But this is still future. First our Lord had to put away the greatest hindrance to men ruling in righteousness, peace and joy - that is, SIN. Second our Lord had to gather a people for His name over the time that Israel is rejected (Act.15:14-16). Third, our Lord Jesus needed to train these redeemed but fallen men to be righteous co-kings (Act.14:22; 2nd Tim.2:12). Thus, a time to accomplish these is set aside called the "Church Age" by some theologians. Only then will our Lord Jesus militarily defeat the nations and set up His throne on earth, FIRST as King of the Jews, and SECOND as King of Kings.

Paul Silas
Aug 12th 2014, 10:51 PM
To help you with answering this, here is a great scripture to begin at:

Acts 1: 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is this Kingdom that Jesus is referring too, here in John, Chapter 18, 36,
His kingdom that is not of this world, the same Kingdom that king David ruled over
and sat on the throne there of this world?

Old man
Aug 12th 2014, 10:59 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

IMO ...... If they made Him King He would either have not died on the cross and we would still be dying in our sins or the Romans would have hauled Him off to Rome to have Him executed there in front of the Roman Emperor (the only one the Romans allowed to be king). Allowing the people to make Him their king (in this manner) would have circumvented the very purpose of God for the salvation of man kind. (John 12:23-33)

LandShark
Aug 12th 2014, 11:16 PM
IMO ...... If they made Him King He would either have not died on the cross and we would still be dying in our sins or the Romans would have hauled Him off to Rome to have Him executed there in front of the Roman Emperor (the only one the Romans allowed to be king). Allowing the people to make Him their king (in this manner) would have circumvented the very purpose of God for the salvation of man kind. (John 12:23-33)

That's the point brother, they couldn't make him King and he saw to that by backing away. It wasn't time... everything has a time. A new Christian the day he gets baptized could have a calling to be a pastor... he still needs to be a student first. Jesus has/had things to do before becoming King, which is why he returns as King. Amen!

Paul Silas
Aug 12th 2014, 11:23 PM
That's the point brother, they couldn't make him King and he saw to that by backing away. It wasn't time... everything has a time. A new Christian the day he gets baptized could have a calling to be a pastor... he still needs to be a student first. Jesus has/had things to do before becoming King, which is why he returns as King. Amen!
How come you do not believe Jesus was already a King of another Kingdom in which He stated in John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Paul Silas
Aug 12th 2014, 11:35 PM
I totally agree with the reply, actually.

Why do you totally agree with the reply?

BroRog
Aug 12th 2014, 11:45 PM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.You have put your finger on the answer. If the crowds were to rise up and make him king by force, then his kingdom would be "of this world." That's right. But Jesus decided to wait for his father to bring about the kingdom, and when the father brings about the kingdom, his kingdom would be "of God."

Also, had Jesus allowed the crowds to make him king, he would not have had the chance to die on the cross to save us from our sins. The crowds had the right idea, but they were a bit premature.

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 12:31 AM
I think they wanted to make him King for the wrong reasons.They could eat there fill without working for it motivated them more than his truth regarding the true bread from heaven that they should desire more. They were more interested in Jesus filling their bellys, rather than their hearts.

Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”


Jesus still established his kingdom so it could be entered.

BroRog
Aug 13th 2014, 12:41 AM
I think they wanted to make him King for the wrong reasons.They could eat there fill without working for it motivated them more than his truth regarding the true bread from heaven that they should desire more. They were more interested in Jesus filling their bellys, rather than their hearts.Good point. Well said .

awestruckchild
Aug 13th 2014, 12:51 AM
I read this on another forum and I would like to know,
what you think about it or believe?

Peace,

I was reading this Scripture the other day and the thought occurred to me, why did Jesus do that? The Scripture is John 6:14-15:

"(14)Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.(15)When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


Then someone replied with this

Because He was not their King.
He was already a King of another people in another kingdom.
As it is written...

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Paul, it is very nice to meet you!
Jesus could not be made their earthly king for the same reason He told Peter to put his sword away. It is because He would not have fulfilled scripture. He was sent to die the first time. They did not understand all of scripture and there was scripture that talked of Him ruling and there was scripture that talked of Him suffering. They probably argued about His coming, how He would come, and where He would come from because scripture seemed to say irreconcilable and opposing things about Him. In different places it even said He would come from Nazareth, from Egypt, and from Bethlehem. It wasn't until after He came that they could look back and see that all three applied to Him!
In fact, I think their arguments about when, where, from what location, etc., probably sounded a bit like our own arguments about His coming again. How funny is that?!

LandShark
Aug 13th 2014, 12:54 AM
How come you do not believe Jesus was already a King of another Kingdom in which He stated in John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I understand, but right now Messiah acts as High Priest. He was called, "Prince of Peace" because the Prince is a "King in waiting." There are many prophesies which state he will literally reign on Earth. So, when they tried to install him as King, at that time... it was not time. A time will come, but that time won't come until after he returns. He came as the suffering servant, the 2nd Adam, the Lamb of God. Today he sits as High Priest and he returns as King of all nations. That is what I believe, if you see it differently my brother, you are welcome to that. Peace!

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 02:48 AM
If the crowds were to rise up and make him king by force, then his kingdom would be "of this world."

.How so? Please explain that transformation?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 02:51 AM
But Jesus decided to wait for his father to bring about the kingdom, and when the father brings about the kingdom, his kingdom would be "of God."

How come you do not believe His Kingdom that was already brought about and established by His Father before this took place , was not "of God"?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 02:54 AM
What they wanted at the time didn't fit with the first coming and what was supposed to be accomplished during it.

Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 02:58 AM
he was not to be King yet. Yes he is King of our lives

When did Jesus become a King?

Before John, Chapter 18, 36

or after?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:00 AM
I agree with diva and landshark. It was not time for him to be King.

Most of the Jews were looking for a King as their Messiah. They wanted him to defeat the Romans.
But that's not why he came the first time.
When did Jesus become King of the Jews? or was He ever their King?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:04 AM
Jesus had come to introduce the Kingly Rule of God from Heaven over which He was king.

How come you do not believe this?

Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:09 AM
Jesus was presented to Israel as their King NOT based on miracles. He was presented on (1) His credentials, and (2) His fulfillment of prophecy.

Then why did Jesus, refuse to be their King?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:14 AM
IMO ...... If they made Him King He would either have not died on the cross and we would still be dying in our sins or the Romans would have hauled Him off to Rome to have Him executed there in front of the Roman Emperor (the only one the Romans allowed to be king). Allowing the people to make Him their king (in this manner) would have circumvented the very purpose of God for the salvation of man kind. (John 12:23-33)

Or He was not their King and His Kingdom was not of this world.

Why do you choose to believe what you said instead
of what is recorded that which Jesus said?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:17 AM
I think they wanted to make him King for the wrong reasons.They could eat there fill without working for it motivated them more than his truth regarding the true bread from heaven that they should desire more. They were more interested in Jesus filling their bellys, rather than their hearts.

Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”


Jesus still established his kingdom so it could be entered.

According to what is recorded in the book of John, Jesus was King and had a kingdom before He came to earth. His Kingdom was already established.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:19 AM
To help you with answering this, here is a great scripture to begin at:

Acts 1: 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

Here is what I really want to read what you have to say about this.


John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is this Kingdom that Jesus is referring too, here in John, Chapter 18, 36,
His kingdom that is not of this world, the same Kingdom that king David ruled over
and sat on the throne that was of this world?

Tell me what you believe concerning this here?

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 03:21 AM
Why do you totally agree with the reply?

He is not going to be King over sinners, only those who follow Him. Ultimately there will be no sin when death is destroyed, and His kingdom will be expressed physically on the New Earth.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:22 AM
He is not going to be King over sinners, only those who follow Him. Ultimately there will be no sin when death is destroyed, and His kingdom will be expressed physically on the New Earth.

How did you come to this conclusion? And when is death going to be destroyed?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:24 AM
He is not going to be King over sinners

Then He was never a King of Kings.

Or that phrase "King of Kings" does not mean what most people think it means.

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 03:27 AM
Then He was never a King of Kings.

Or that phrase "King of Kings" does not mean what most people think it means.

Well the BIBLE says His kingdom is not of this world, so that's a discrepancy you will have to deal with yourself. But I would offer that God has authority over everyone, but His authority is not expressed among us to the fullest.


How did you come to this conclusion? And when is death going to be destroyed?

1 Corinthians 15:26 and Revelation 20:14

Death and sin are destroyed after/upon the Second Coming and Judgment.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:29 AM
Is there anyone of you that do not believe Jesus was already a King
and had an established Kingdom before He was born?


God has authority over everyone, but His authority is not expressed among us to the fullest.

And how do you know this is true?

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 03:31 AM
And how do you know this is true?

Because there are sinners - disobedience - therefore, God's authority is not recognized/submitted to by humanity. Eventually the reaping scythe will sweep the Earth of those who do evil. Then His kingdom will be fully realized. I'm not saying He does not have a kingdom, simply that His kingdom is not a worldly kingdom. You cannot go to the kingdom of God.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:31 AM
Well the BIBLE says His kingdom is not of this world, so that's a discrepancy What is the discrepancy?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:33 AM
Because not everyone obeys Him.

I fail to see where this has to do with ...
His authority is not expressed among us to the fullest.

Please point it out to me?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:37 AM
Because there are sinners - disobedience - therefore, God's authority is not recognized/submitted to by humanity. Eventually the reaping scythe will sweep the Earth of those who do evil. Then His kingdom will be fully realized.

There were sinners before the earth was created. There was disobedience before the earth was created. God made it so by His authority. God's authority whether seen or unseen is always authoritative over all.

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 03:41 AM
According to what is recorded in the book of John, Jesus was King and had a kingdom before He came to earth. His Kingdom was already established.

Yes, but could we enter?
Unless one is born again he cant see or enter it...Jn 3

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:45 AM
Death and sin are destroyed after/upon the Second Coming and Judgment.
Is Jesus going to rule on earth before then?

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 03:46 AM
What is the discrepancy?

You said "Then He was never a King of Kings." The Bible says He is King of Kings (present) and His kingdom is not of this world (present). Therefore, your contention that He cannot be "King of Kings" unless it applies to the world is a discrepancy with Scripture, not my statements.


His authority is not expressed among us to the fullest. Please point it out to me?

God tells us not to sin; we sin. Therefore, we do not fully submit to God's authority. Are you disagreeing that people sin or that God commands us not to sin?


There were sinners before the earth was created. There was disobedience before the earth was created.

Yes, but what does this have to do with what you quoted?


Is Jesus going to rule on earth before then?

No. Jesus cannot come to Earth before He comes to Earth a second time.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:47 AM
Yes, but could we enter?
Unless one is born again he cant see or enter it...Jn 3

To be born again, you have to be born once before. You have to be born a second time,
Do you believe this?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:48 AM
Yes, but could we enter?
I will let you answer your own question.

Do you believe all things are possible with God?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:55 AM
You said "Then He was never a King of Kings."

Because you said this to me.



He is not going to be King over sinners, only those who follow Him.

There have been many Kings on earth that have not and do not follow Jesus and sin.

The last I heard Jesus was King over Satan.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:58 AM
God tells us not to sin; we sin. Therefore, we do not fully submit to God's authority. Are you disagreeing that people sin or that God commands us not to sin?

Here I will let you answer your own question.

Did God make Pharaoh sin?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:00 AM
No. Jesus cannot come to Earth before He comes to Earth a second time.

Is this when you say death and sin will destroyed?

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 04:01 AM
I will let you answer your own question.

Do you believe all things are possible with God?


God has made it possible for every person to respond and to enter his Kingdom.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:03 AM
Yes, but what does this have to do with what you quoted?

it has everything to do with it.


God has made it possible for every person to respond and to enter his Kingdom.

Really? Even those He killed by drowning them with water?

I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that, God has made it possible for every person to respond and to enter his Kingdom. I would like to read what you have to say about it.

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 04:06 AM
You have put your finger on the answer. If the crowds were to rise up and make him king by force, then his kingdom would be "of this world."But when Jesus returns the kingdoms of this world become his by force. So by this (force) line of reasoning, it would be a kingdom of this world. However, of this world denotes sin, and that's not what he will be doing when he returns.



That's right. But Jesus decided to wait for his father to bring about the kingdom, and when the father brings about the kingdom, his kingdom would be "of God." This is more accurate. Through righteousness. Both, never sinning and the righteousness of God (fulfilling promises). Even from Adam, the kingdom was to be ruled through righteousness. Adam failed, Christ did not. Christ was declared to be the Son of God by the spirit of holiness by the resurrection of the dead. We are assured the world will be judged by the righteous one because of the resurrection. Jesus had not been resurrected.



Also, had Jesus allowed the crowds to make him king, he would not have had the chance to die on the cross to save us from our sins. The crowds had the right idea, but they were a bit premature.Well yes. The Messiah would do miracles like no other. They knew that. It wasn't until later in healing the blind, which had never been done before, did he validate it.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:08 AM
But when Jesus returns the kingdoms of this world become his by force. So by this (force) line of reasoning, it would be a kingdom of this world. However, of this world denotes sin, and that's not what he will be doing when he returns.


This is more accurate. Through righteousness. Both, never sinning and the righteousness of God (fulfilling promises). Even from Adam, the kingdom was to be ruled through righteousness. Adam failed, Christ did not. Christ was declared to be the Son of God by the spirit of holiness by the resurrection of the dead. We are assured the world will be judged by the righteous one because of the resurrection. Jesus had not been resurrected.


Well yes. The Messiah would do miracles like no other. They knew that. It wasn't until later in healing the blind, which had never been done before, did he validate it.
Here is what I really want to read what you have to say about this.




John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Is this Kingdom that Jesus is referring too, here in John, Chapter 18, 36,
His kingdom that is not of this world, the same Kingdom that king David ruled over
and sat on the throne that was of this world?


Tell me what you believe concerning this here?

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 04:10 AM
I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that, God has made it possible for every person to respond and to enter his Kingdom. I would like to read what you have to say about it.

I would quote Jn 3 again and say that God so loved the world that he sent his only Son......that the world might be saved through him. This is to be preached to the uttermost parts of the earth....to every tongue , tribe, nation etc.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:14 AM
I would quote Jn 3 again and say that God so loved the world that he sent his only Son......that the world might be saved through him. This is to be preached to the uttermost parts of the earth....to every tongue , tribe, nation etc.
Did you take the time to read on down a little further in that chapter? Down to verse 21?

What you do is link every verse together till you get to 21(21 included)
and you get the over all picture.

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 04:17 AM
There have been many Kings on earth that have not and do not follow Jesus and sin. The last I heard Jesus was King over Satan.

None of this changes the fact that His kingdom "is not of this world."


Here I will let you answer your own question. Did God make Pharaoh sin?

Not sure how I can answer a question about your point, nor how this is relevant to whether or not people sin, nor how this makes His kingdom "of this world."


Is this when you say death and sin will destroyed?

Yes.


it has everything to do with it.

"And here's why..." ?

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 04:19 AM
According to what is recorded in the book of John, Jesus was King and had a kingdom before He came to earth. His Kingdom was already established.The kingdom on earth is ruled by man. "the man Christ Jesus" No one was righteous to do so until Jesus lived a sinless life. The kingdom of God is spiritual, the kingdom of heaven takes place on earth. His kingdom is both, the one originally planned, not just the spiritual. It's the spiritual operating on earth as it is in heaven.

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 04:19 AM
Did you take the time to read on down a little further in that chapter? Down to verse 21?

What you do is link every verse together till you get to 21(21 included)
and you get the over all picture.

Can you help us out here?.......What are you seeing.?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:19 AM
None of this changes the fact that His kingdom "is not of this world."



Not sure how I can answer a question about your point, nor how this is relevant to whether or not people sin, nor how this makes His kingdom "of this world."



Yes.



"And here's why..." ?

Here is what I really want to read what you have to say about this.

John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is this Kingdom that Jesus is referring too, here in John, Chapter 18, 36,
His kingdom that is not of this world, the same Kingdom that king David ruled over
and sat on the throne that was of this world?

Tell me what you believe concerning this here?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:22 AM
Can you help us out here?.......What are you seeing.?

I am not seeing where in this verse that you quoted to me that

God has made it possible for every person to respond and to enter his Kingdom.

I am absolutely positive that there have been multitudes of people who have walked on this earth and never even knew that Jesus existed or that the Lord God
created everything by Him.

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 04:24 AM
Is this Kingdom that Jesus is referring too, here in John, Chapter 18, 36,
His kingdom that is not of this world, the same Kingdom that king David ruled over
and sat on the throne that was of this world?

No, and you gave the reason why - one is not of the world and the other is.

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 04:28 AM
Here is what I really want to read what you have to say about this.


John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Is this Kingdom that Jesus is referring too, here in John, Chapter 18, 36,
His kingdom that is not of this world, the same Kingdom that king David ruled over
and sat on the throne that was of this world?


Tell me what you believe concerning this here?I believe I just touched this in post #56. The closest we have seen the kingdom on earth is when Solomon was king, but this was limited and lacking. But yes, the principle of the law, love God and neighbor, and a time of peace, is the kingdom, but it was without all men, the born again experience, and forgiveness of sin for a restored relationship with God for all.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:28 AM
No, and you gave the reason why - one is not of the world and the other is.
So you do not believe that Jesus is going to sit on the throne of David
and rule over the same Kingdom?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:31 AM
The kingdom on earth

The Kingdom of earth????

Who is ruling the Kingdom of earth right now?

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 04:31 AM
So you do not believe that Jesus is going to sit on the throne of David
and rule over the same Kingdom?

Symbolically at most, if not only after the New Earth is created. When Jesus rules physically it will be over the whole world for eternity, not one country among others.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:34 AM
The kingdom of God is spiritual, the kingdom of heaven takes place on earth. .This sure is a whole lot of theology in one sentence.

Isn't the kingdom of heaven also spiritual?

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 04:35 AM
The Kingdom of earth????

Who is ruling the Kingdom of earth right now?you don't know?......

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:36 AM
Symbolically at most, if not only after the New Earth is created. When Jesus rules physically it will be over the whole world for eternity, not one country among others.The new earth is already created.


you don't know?......

Yes, I know the question I asked you.

Do you have an answer for me?

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 04:37 AM
This sure is a whole lot of theology in one sentence.

Isn't the kingdom of heaven also spiritual?
What did I say?
"It's the spiritual operating on earth as it is in heaven."

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 04:38 AM
The Kingdom of earth????

Who is ruling the Kingdom of earth right now?If you don't know the answer you shouldn't be trying to instruct us with your personal mystery you think you have found.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:40 AM
If you don't know the answer you shouldn't be trying to instruct us with your personal mystery you think you have found.
Why are you treating me like this, all I did was ask you a question about what you said?
If you do not want to answer any of my questions, just say so, and I will not ask you any.
Even if you say things to me that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. Which is my right to do so.

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 04:41 AM
I am not seeing where in this verse that you quoted to me that

God has made it possible for every person to respond and to enter his Kingdom.

I am absolutely positive that there have been multitudes of people who have walked on this earth and never even knew that Jesus existed or that the Lord God
created everything by Him.

Nevertheless, Jesus died and atoned for the sins of the whole world. God will know what to do with those who never get to hear it. While we were ignorant of him and yet sinners ,he died for us and he finds us.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:42 AM
Nevertheless, Jesus died and atoned for the sins of the whole world. God will know what to do with those who never get to hear it. While we were ignorant of him and yet sinners ,he died for us and he finds us.
That is what you believe. That does not make it so,
just because you believe something to be true.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:46 AM
What did I say?
"It's the spiritual operating on earth as it is in heaven."

This is what you said

The kingdom on earth is ruled by man. "the man Christ Jesus" No one was righteous to do so until Jesus lived a sinless life. The kingdom of God is spiritual, the kingdom of heaven takes place on earth. His kingdom is both, the one originally planned, not just the spiritual. It's the spiritual operating on earth as it is in heaven.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:49 AM
Nevertheless, Jesus died and atoned for the sins of the whole world.
Then tell me this, how come the sins of the whole world are not forgiven?
Why is God going to cast many in the lake of fire and destroy the world
that you believe God love's.

Please enlighten me.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:54 AM
God will know what to do with those who never get to hear it.
Do you still believe this?


God has made it possible for every person to respond and to enter his Kingdom.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 04:58 AM
Please...when you pray for me...because I know you are going to believe I am lost and need to know the truth. Instead of asking God to show me
and make me believe the way you believe.

Ask God to open my eyes to let me see into the spiritual realm at all times
as the angels of God.

Thank you.

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 05:12 AM
The new earth is already created.

When do you believe it was created?

BroRog
Aug 13th 2014, 05:25 AM
How come you do not believe His Kingdom that was already brought about and established by His Father before this took place , was not "of God"?According to Jesus, he was already king, even before he was arrested. (John 18:37) But as of yet, Jesus the king does not have a kingdom. In his opinion, he first needed to go away to a "far country" to receive his kingdom and then he will return. (Luke 19:12)

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 05:31 AM
Then tell me this, how come the sins of the whole world are not forgiven?
Why is God going to cast many in the lake of fire and destroy the world
that you believe God love's.

Please enlighten me.

Where there is repentance, all sins will be forgiven. God so loved the world, that he sent his Son to deal with any sin a repentant sinner has and wash it away. Not Gods fault that some dont repent and find that forgiveness.Jesus shed blood was there ready to cleanse them.

BroRog
Aug 13th 2014, 05:33 AM
But when Jesus returns the kingdoms of this world become his by force. So by this (force) line of reasoning, it would be a kingdom of this world. However, of this world denotes sin, and that's not what he will be doing when he returns.


This is more accurate. Through righteousness. Both, never sinning and the righteousness of God (fulfilling promises). Even from Adam, the kingdom was to be ruled through righteousness. Adam failed, Christ did not. Christ was declared to be the Son of God by the spirit of holiness by the resurrection of the dead. We are assured the world will be judged by the righteous one because of the resurrection. Jesus had not been resurrected.


Well yes. The Messiah would do miracles like no other. They knew that. It wasn't until later in healing the blind, which had never been done before, did he validate it.Yes, I agree. In the sense you mean it, the kingdom had already begun. All those who follow Jesus, whether they lived in the first century or the twenty-first century are his subjects and as such, comprise his kingdom. Right? I think so. And yet, the kingdom will grow into a great tree filled with birds. As you say, in THAT kingdom, righteous and goodness and truth will be found in all people everywhere.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:40 AM
When do you believe it was created?
Never thought about it or asked God. I don't know.

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 05:41 AM
Why are you treating me like this, all I did was ask you a question about what you said?
Because we are 80 post into the thread and no one has a clue what your point is. If you have something to say, say it. Constantly asking setup questions then acting like people have no clue is silly.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:42 AM
According to Jesus, he was already king, even before he was arrested. (John 18:37) But as of yet, Jesus the king does not have a kingdom. In his opinion, he first needed to go away to a "far country" to receive his kingdom and then he will return. (Luke 19:12)

How come you do not believe His Kingdom that was already brought about and established by His Father before this took place , was not "of God"?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:43 AM
Because we are 80 post into the thread and no one has a clue what your point is. If you have something to say, say it. Constantly asking setup questions then acting like people have no clue is silly.

How can you speak for anyone other than yourself?

I am alright with your opinion of me.

I expect nothing less from you.

Thank you for letting me know how you feel about me.

As for me, it does not bother me, what you post on this thread I started.

When you have another opinion of me, be sure and let me know what it is.

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 05:48 AM
Yes, I agree. In the sense you mean it, the kingdom had already begun. All those who follow Jesus, whether they lived in the first century or the twenty-first century are his subjects and as such, comprise his kingdom. Right?The disobedient are subjects and part of the kingdom to. It's not until he returns and he removes all that offends that "then shall the righteous shine forth......." "then shall the kingdom of heaven be like........."



I think so. And yet, the kingdom will grow into a great tree filled with birds. As you say, in THAT kingdom, righteous and goodness and truth will be found in all people everywhere.Well, the kingdom of heaven (kingdom on earth) has both good and bad, wheat and tares, old and new. The growth is leaven (corruption) and the fowls of the air making their home in the shadows of it are devils.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:48 AM
Where there is repentance, all sins will be forgiven.
Have you considered this verse from the book of Hebrews?

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:50 AM
Where there is repentance, all sins will be forgiven. God so loved the world, that he sent his Son to deal with any sin a repentant sinner has and wash it away. Not Gods fault that some dont repent and find that forgiveness.Jesus shed blood was there ready to cleanse them.

You are fully in indoctrinated with what you believe. Do you or have you ever come across something that you believed and realized it was wrong?

Noeb
Aug 13th 2014, 05:55 AM
How can you speak for anyone other than yourself?
because of comments like this,

"The new earth is already created."
"Never thought about it or asked God. I don't know."
"You are fully in indoctrinated with what you believe. Do you or have you ever come across something that you believed and realized it was wrong?"

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:57 AM
because of comments like this,

"The new earth is already created."
"Never thought about it or asked God. I don't know."
"You are fully in indoctrinated with what you believe. Do you or have you ever come across something that you believed and realized it was wrong?"

Yes, they are brilliant aren't they? I find great Wisdom within them.

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 06:02 AM
Have you considered this verse from the book of Hebrews?

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

That would be Godless esau, and his unGodly sorrow .....that does not lead to repentance. 2cor 7:10

edit..he was another one thinking about his stomach...

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 06:03 AM
That would be Godless esau, and his unGodly sorrow .....that does not lead to repentance. 2cor 7:10
Tell me, in your own words, how much do you love Jesus? If Jesus was to ask you this question, what would you tell Him?

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 06:20 AM
Tell me, in your own words, how much do you love Jesus? If Jesus was to ask you this question, what would you tell Him?

I think i would breakdown and cry if he asked me that. ....actions speak louder than words.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 06:29 AM
I think i would breakdown and cry if he asked me that. ....actions speak louder than words.
So you would tell Him, that you would show Him, not tell Him?

jeffweeder
Aug 13th 2014, 06:36 AM
So you would tell Him, that you would show Him, not tell Him?

:OFFT:

I think that I know the answer to my question of why did Jesus retreat when he saw that the people were going to make him king but I thought that it would make a good conversation; WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF JESUS HAD LET THEM MAKE HIM KING?; WOULD THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED ON EARTH IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING? WOULD THIS WICKED WORLD BE SAVED & IN A HOLY CONDITION IF HE HAD BEEN MADE KING?*WHY* DID JESUS RETREAT FROM BEING MADE KING?


How do you answer your qu?
God bless

BroRog
Aug 13th 2014, 06:56 AM
How come you do not believe His Kingdom that was already brought about and established by His Father before this took place , was not "of God"?I don't agree with your premise that his kingdom was already brought about. Remember, Jesus is answering Pilate's question, "are you king of the Jews?" The answer is "yes", he is king of the Jews. But in order for the king of the Jews to die for his people, he must be turned over to the Romans to be executed. As he says, had his kingdom already been established, his subjects would not have allowed him to be taken captive. His servants would be fighting so that he would not be handed over to the Jews or the Romans. The father will establish a kingdom later in our future with Jesus as the head and at that time his servants will not only fight for him, but they will be victorious. (Revelation 11:15 for instance.)

LandShark
Aug 13th 2014, 11:48 AM
When did Jesus become a King?

Before John, Chapter 18, 36

or after?

Paul, you asked a question, you did not say that you desired debate about it. If that is going to be your style on here (Start a thread with a benign question and then go after the answers you don't like) you probably won't enjoy your stay here because you will only find strife. Now, to answer your question once.... I believe Yeshua is Messiah, I also believe he was God in the flesh. As such, He has ALWAYS been King, and always will be. However, just as in Phil. 2:8 where it states he "humbled himself in fashion AS A MAN" and in Heb. 2:9 where it states he "was made lower than the angels FOR THE SUFFERING OF DEATH," we can then see that while King of the Universe, He also has OTHER OFFICES TO FILL. One of them was the Son, the Lamb, the Second Adam who came to give Himself for us. Another is as High Priest, making intercession on our behalf. And another, He will LITERALLY reign on Earth in Jerusalem over the nations. And those in the verse you opened with who wanted to install Him as King wanted to install Him in THAT PHYSICAL THRONE IN JERUSALEM at that time. However, it was NOT TIME YET for THAT aspect of the Kingdom. That aspect, that office, is filled when He returns. I can't explain that any clearer.

Blessings.
Ken

Walls
Aug 13th 2014, 12:17 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Walls
Jesus was presented to Israel as their King NOT based on miracles. He was presented on (1) His credentials, and (2) His fulfillment of prophecy.


Then why did Jesus, refuse to be their King?

Did He refuse, or did He depart their company because the crowd's motive was wrong? After all, the embracing of Messiah by Israel was a matter of faith in God's Word, not miracles.

awestruckchild
Aug 13th 2014, 12:39 PM
This has been seven pages of ridiculous, Paul. I am sorry I even posted an answer in here.
I perceive that you are not here for fellowship of any kind, but for bitter strife and argument. You have not humbled yourself before us as we humbled ourselves before you and cheerfully took up conversation with you. You will probably find a few who will give you what you want but it certainly won't help you (or them) or fill the empty space inside of you.

Aviyah
Aug 13th 2014, 02:09 PM
Never thought about it or asked God. I don't know.

That's fine, but how can you say I am wrong if you haven't even thought about the subject and have no justifications for your own statements? I'm very confused about what you are trying to accomplish except to argue.

Neanias
Aug 13th 2014, 02:35 PM
Jesus is not appointed King by men. Men want to choose a king for themselves, but this is the will of men at work. Men tried to crown Jesus, but they would have had him be a different kind of king. Jesus was already king of another kingdom, but he did not come to rule as the kings of this world do, and he did not come to create a revolution, at least not in human terms, and the way men do.

Jesus was misunderstood by the masses then, and still is today. Men would make him a king according to their will. Jesus is King, but on God's terms, not man's, and in God's way, not man's. Another Jesus is often promoted today, as always, because he is misunderstood. A Jesus that is like earthly kings, but that is not the Christ.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Slug1
Aug 13th 2014, 02:48 PM
Jesus is not appointed King by men. Men want to choose a king for themselves, but this is the will of men at work. Men tried to crown Jesus, but they would have had him be a different kind of king. Jesus was already king of another kingdom, but he did not come to rule as the kings of this world do, and he did not come to create a revolution, at least not in human terms, and the way men do.

Jesus was misunderstood by the masses then, and still is today. Men would make him a king according to their will. Jesus is King, but on God's terms, not man's, and in God's way, not man's. Another Jesus is often promoted today, as always, because he is misunderstood. A Jesus that is like earthly kings, but that is not the Christ.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.Hooah, as in the Acts 1 verses I posted, all in God's GOOD timing will Jesus be King. This lesson has been experienced since the Jews began to demand a king and God told them, not now. Yet, they demanded and God gave them what they wanted and ya think we all learn from all the troubles experienced by Israel concerning a need for a king.

Man is so in error that when false Christ's come and go, they (false Christs) can still deceive many.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 02:54 PM
This has been seven pages of ridiculous, Paul. I am sorry I even posted an answer in here.
I perceive that you are not here for fellowship of any kind, but for bitter strife and argument. You have not humbled yourself before us as we humbled ourselves before you and cheerfully took up conversation with you. You will probably find a few who will give you what you want but it certainly won't help you (or them) or fill the empty space inside of you.
If we are going to be righteous, it would now be my turn to tell you my opinion of you.
Do you agree with me?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 02:55 PM
Hooah, as in the Acts 1 verses I posted, all in God's GOOD timing will Jesus be King. This lesson has been experienced since the Jews began to demand a king and God told them, not now. Yet, they demanded and God gave them what they wanted and ya think we all learn from all the troubles experienced by Israel concerning a need for a king.

Man is so in error that when false Christ's come and go, they (false Christs) can still deceive many.
How did you arrive at this opinion of your's? Because this is actually
your own opinion of the truth.

And why would you believe that your own opinion is the actual truth seeing that you have been wrong about many things in your own life that at one time you thought you were right?

LandShark
Aug 13th 2014, 03:01 PM
How did you arrive at this opinion of your's? Because this is actually
your own opinion of the truth.

And why would you believe that your own opinion is the actual truth seeing that you have been wrong about many things in your own life that at one time you thought you were right?

Just as you believe your opinion is truth. You have not been perfected anymore than any of us have, you have error too. This is a forum where folks come together to have a discussion, not a fight. I hope you are capable of having an adult conversation where we respect the views of others. Your question, for example, is NOT a salvation issue, therefore, it should NOT be used to cause division. Allow people the right to have their own opinion and work out their own salvation, or trust me... you won't be here very long!!

Can you address this post next? http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/258433-Why-did-Jesus-do-this?p=3151080#post3151080

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:14 PM
Just as you believe your opinion is truth. You have not been perfected anymore than any of us have, you have error too.
Why do you assume that this is correct?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:15 PM
This is a forum where folks come together to have a discussion, not a fight. I hope you are capable of having an adult conversation where we respect the views of others.
Are you the example I am to follow?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:16 PM
Your question, for example, is NOT a salvation issue, therefore, it should NOT be used to cause division. Allow people the right to have their own opinion and work out their own salvation, or trust me... you won't be here very long!!

I do not trust you and I do not care how long I am here.
And I do not live by your own preconceived standards.

In fact you will not read of me telling you how to behave or conduct yourself on here.
I have more respect for you than you have for me.

I also love you for more than you love me.

LandShark
Aug 13th 2014, 03:18 PM
Are you the example I am to follow?

No, your messiah is and he said to love your neighbor, even your enemy... forgive those who sin against you.... and if we are to love enemy and forgive those who sin against us, why are you treating "brethren" with near contempt? You asked a question to open this thread, you didn't like some answers... so why did you ask the question? To cause strife, to look for a fight? I am out, done.. I won't write back in here. Send me a private message if you feel the need to share anything with me. No hard feelings, be well! :)

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:20 PM
Can you address this post next? http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/258433-Why-did-Jesus-do-this?p=3151080#post3151080

Why? What is the point?


No, your messiah is and he said to love your neighbor, even your enemy... forgive those who sin against you.... and if we are to love enemy and forgive those who sin against us, why are you treating "brethren" with near contempt? You asked a question to open this thread, you didn't like some answers... so why did you ask the question? To cause strife, to look for a fight? I am out, done.. I won't write back in here. Send me a private message if you feel the need to share anything with me. No hard feelings, be well! :)

I do not care what you do. You are just mad because you cannot refute what I said to you. And you are trying to retaliate by taking all this out on me.

Which is the very least I expected from you.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:25 PM
When you cannot refute what I have said to you,
I am well aware I will get things like this said to me.


This has been seven pages of ridiculous, Paul. I am sorry I even posted an answer in here.
I perceive that you are not here for fellowship of any kind, but for bitter strife and argument. You have not humbled yourself before us as we humbled ourselves before you and cheerfully took up conversation with you. You will probably find a few who will give you what you want but it certainly won't help you (or them) or fill the empty space inside of you.

I am fairly sure that if I had posted this to one of you,
I would have already been given the boot. Or some action would have been taken.

Does anyone know what it is written in the bible concerning this?

LandShark
Aug 13th 2014, 03:29 PM
Why? What is the point?

Well, thanks... you made it clear. You asked a question and when any answer came back that didn't align to your view, you dismiss it. When I gave you a chance to address the issue, you say, "What is the point." This clearly shows you are here to set some hooks and push whatever agenda it is you have.


I do not care what you do. You are just mad because you cannot refute what I said to you. And you are trying to retaliate by taking all this out on me.Which is the very least I expected from you.

You don't know me so you shouldn't have expected anything... you give away your age and experience with comments like that. As for being mad? I am not mad Paul, not in the least. You are trolling around looking for a fight, I have better things to do than that... you have now been exposed, and your time here, unless your attitude changes to one that is more benevolent, will be short. Consider that unfulfilled prophecy! ;) Be well... I really won't be back now. :D

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:30 PM
You see the bible is not for you to lay the words of it upon others.
it is for you to lay the words of it upon yourself.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:32 PM
Well, thanks... you made it clear. You asked a question and when any answer came back that didn't align to your view, you dismiss it. When I gave you a chance to address the issue, you say, "What is the point." This clearly shows you are here to set some hooks and push whatever agenda it is you have.



You don't know me so you shouldn't have expected anything... you give away your age and experience with comments like that. As for being mad? I am not mad Paul, not in the least. You are trolling around looking for a fight, I have better things to do than that... you have now been exposed, and your time here, unless your attitude changes to one that is more benevolent, will be short. Consider that unfulfilled prophecy! ;) Be well... I really won't be back now. :D

You have perjured yourself. That is the truth.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:35 PM
Right is right and wrong is wrong.

I will always treat all of you right.

No matter what.

awestruckchild
Aug 13th 2014, 03:36 PM
When you cannot refute what I have said to you,
I am well aware I will get things like this said to me.



I am fairly sure that if I had posted this to one of you,
I would have already been given the boot. Or some action would have been taken.

Does anyone know what it is written in the bible concerning this?

You have recourse if you think I have spoken without love and concern for all in this thread or have been unfair to you. You can report it to a mod. I trust my brothers and sisters participating in the thread and I also trust the moderators, because they both are not without discernment by the Holy Spirit in them. They have keen sight. And they take seriously their job to direct us toward peace with each other and to watch over us.

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:50 PM
You have recourse if you think I have spoken without love and concern for all in this thread or have been unfair to you. You can report it to a mod. I trust my brothers and sisters participating in the thread and I also trust the moderators, because they both are not without discernment by the Holy Spirit in them. They have keen sight. And they take seriously their job to direct us toward peace with each other and to watch over us.Is this here offer you have made to me an example of your righteousness?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 03:55 PM
John, Chapter 18, 36: Jesus answered,
My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence.

This is one of my favorite verses in the bible. This verse alone destroys, much, of the
doctrine of devils.

Old man
Aug 13th 2014, 04:19 PM
Or He was not their King and His Kingdom was not of this world.
Or He is but has something of a higher priority to achieve before sitting on the throne of his father David and ruling the nations with a rod of iron. The other thing to keep in mind here is what their idea of king was. Did the people believe that messiah when He came would be their king? And when messiah came what did they think he was supposed to do? Was their expectation of Messiah (king) that He would throw the Romans out and establish the kingdom of Israel as prominent among nations? If these questions are answered with a yes then the people were actually admitting Him to be Messiah and king and attempting to force Him onto the throne to take leadership and deliver the nation of Israel from Roman occupation.

Jesus had another reason for coming at that time and that was to die on the cross for the redemption of man and being placed on (His rightful place) the throne of His father David was not within the scope of His agenda at that time.

Matt 27:11 “Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say."

Even Pilate admitted Jesus as being their King

John 19:18-22 “Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS." …. (22)Pilate answered, "What I have written I have written."

Because He choose not to actually sit on David’s throne (which by birthright as shown in His genealogy [Matt 1] He had a right to) at that time does not make Him any less their king. In fact the only reason they were able to do what they did to Him is because our heavenly Father gave them permission to do so (for His purpose to be achieved – the shedding of the blood of Christ for the remission of sins)

John 19:10-11 “So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" (11) Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."


Why do you choose to believe what you said instead of what is recorded that which Jesus said?
I try to look at a much larger context than you are perhaps willing to look at. Context which not only includes what Jesus said but also the events surrounding His conversations which include the governmental, social and prophetic dynamics of that time period. The prophetic dynamics being God’s purposes and plans as He has reveal throughout the ages prior to and concerning the identity (David's son[i.e. king of Israel]), life, purpose and fulfillment of Messiah’s coming, as well those concerning Him still to be fulfilled in the future.

Slug1
Aug 13th 2014, 05:12 PM
How did you arrive at this opinion of your's? Because this is actually
your own opinion of the truth.

And why would you believe that your own opinion is the actual truth seeing that you have been wrong about many things in your own life that at one time you thought you were right?Opinion? No.... the Bible shows us what I raised in this discussion. Do you want scripture and when I post it, will you accept the scriptures that show us how Israel wanted a king and God said it wasn't at their best interest at this time for them to have any king because He's got One for them... in due time?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:21 PM
Opinion? No.... the Bible shows us what I raised in this discussion. Do you want scripture and when I post it, will you accept the scriptures that show us how Israel wanted a king and God said it wasn't at their best interest at this time for them to have any king because He's got One for them... in due time?
Jesus is not their King. His Kingdom is not of their world. He said so Himself.

They even tried to make Him their King and He rejected them.

Do you want me to show you the scripture, again?

Paul Silas
Aug 13th 2014, 05:27 PM
Here are 3 of my favorite verses in the whole bible.

John, Chapter 18, 35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

John, Chapter 18, 36:Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John, Chapter 19, 11:Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

These 3 verses destroys much work of the doctrine of devils.

BrianW
Aug 13th 2014, 05:30 PM
Enough. Closed for mod review.

Edit: Please report these guy's when they show up and act this way.