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Protective Angel
Dec 30th 2014, 04:19 AM
Watching the movie "Left behind" spurred this thread. Also the thread Miracles, signs, and wonders has a two camp issue that was brought up. Knowledge. :)

The importance of it. So I know which camp I'm in now, BUT is it right? Is there a right view or wrong view OR is it simply a "meet in the middle" issue.

Well... that's where the movie spurred the thread. Now for those who have not seen "Left behind" the movie. I'll point out the scene played out as "per the scripture" they used for the scene.

All the born-again Christians have went to meet Christ in the air. Leaving the unsaved. The scene starts as a Pastor in church has been "left behind". He can't believe how God has left him. He even uses some of the following scripture in his lines, as he gets mad, even throwing something that knocks over the Cross.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?




Now we might say, it just a movie, a Pastor will never be "left behind". Maybe that's true, but not the issue. The POINT IS, that he was a STUDIED man. A man who knew ALL THE WORDS needed, but yet was "left behind.

So I WANT to be sure that my knowledge is correct and IF NOT that someone will point out to me, what the title thread answer is.

Which knowledge it takes to enter Heaven? OR Does knowledge bring salvation to enter Heaven?


Here are some scriptures to consider where my answers come from. I believe a personal relationship with a God who is able to speak, move mountains, and heal. I WANT TO POINT OUT. This is not a M/S/W thread, although it will come up, this thread is to explore what knowledge is it, that leads to Heaven. A step back from the M/S/W thread.


So with the groundwork laid. Let's explore "what knowledge it takes, to get to Heaven. :).. :hug:

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So they searched the scriptures and did not understand they needed to come to Jesus for eternal life. They had knowledge, but wrong knowledge.



Colo 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.



Clue for me here. In Jesus there are treasures of wisdom and knowledge.




2 Corin 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

By communication God made known to Paul the mystery.



Colo 1:8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding

Spiritual not scriptural.


Colo 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.





Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

Now here we have unlearned men teaching knowledge.



So I ask again. Which knowledge to enter Heaven? OR Can knowledge bring salvation? Let's find the way. :hug:

birdy
Dec 30th 2014, 04:54 AM
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? (Mark 4:11-13).

When God gives salvation to a person they are given the ability to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. The Bible will make sense as it's parable words speak of Christ's love for them, and resurrection from darkness and so forth. But to those who are unsaved the Bible is a mystery, a parable that they do not understand. Such people are more likely to see the Bible as a surface text and an historical account with lots of rituals that they feel they must perform, and so forth. The main thing for the true believer is the reality of God himself, for the law makes nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus) does (Heb 7:19, not exact scripture quote)

chad
Dec 30th 2014, 08:29 AM
imo, it is the message of the gospel mixed with faith that brings salvation.

And imo, entering into Heaven requires us to live by faith in this world.





So I ask again. Which knowledge to enter Heaven? OR Can knowledge bring salvation? Let's find the way. :hug:

Glorious
Dec 30th 2014, 09:19 AM
Faith gives spiritual knowledge and reverence, resulting in righteousness. Faith promises salvation to the spiritual.

Grace gives spiritual counsel and might, resulting in peace. Grace gives salvation to the spiritual. That is how come salvation by grace through faith.

Salvation helps, preserves, establishes earthly things and gives heritages (see Isaiah 49:8). So, through spiritual knowledge that faith provides on earth, we obtain salvation by grace.

Also, there comes a perfect time during which salvation goes to Heaven when the Wicked falls away. Intimate/experiential knowledge that begins with the faith of God is a requirement.

Protective Angel
Dec 30th 2014, 06:13 PM
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? (Mark 4:11-13).

When God gives salvation to a person they are given the ability to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. The Bible will make sense as it's parable words speak of Christ's love for them, and resurrection from darkness and so forth. But to those who are unsaved the Bible is a mystery, a parable that they do not understand. Such people are more likely to see the Bible as a surface text and an historical account with lots of rituals that they feel they must perform, and so forth. The main thing for the true believer is the reality of God himself, for the law makes nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus) does (Heb 7:19, not exact scripture quote)

So in reference to the "left behind", you are saying that they are "blind and do not see". AND that the "seeing" comes from the Spiritual God.

Protective Angel
Dec 30th 2014, 06:17 PM
imo, it is the message of the gospel mixed with faith that brings salvation.

And imo, entering into Heaven requires us to live by faith in this world.

By, living by faith, you are saying "walk in the Spirit". Yes? You acquired the knowledge in prayer then.

Protective Angel
Dec 30th 2014, 06:21 PM
Faith gives spiritual knowledge and reverence, resulting in righteousness. Faith promises salvation to the spiritual.

Grace gives spiritual counsel and might, resulting in peace. Grace gives salvation to the spiritual. That is how come salvation by grace through faith.

Salvation helps, preserves, establishes earthly things and gives heritages (see Isaiah 49:8). So, through spiritual knowledge that faith provides on earth, we obtain salvation by grace.

Also, there comes a perfect time during which salvation goes to Heaven when the Wicked falls away. Intimate/experiential knowledge that begins with the faith of God is a requirement.

You say faith brings Spiritual knowledge. So a man can just hear about the Bible and pray for his sins to be forgiven. Yes?

AND yes I agree, the "relationship" with God is most important.

Slug1
Dec 30th 2014, 06:49 PM
1 Corin 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have ,not charity I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


So all this knowledge is nothing without love.Two points I'd like to raise and the 1st is with the 1 Cor 13 verses. I problem many Christians encounter is the context of 1 Cor 13. This problem is because the Word of God we use today is broken up into chapters and verses but when Paul wrote the letter to Corinth... there are no chapters and no verses. It's a letter, so when you read what are now chapters 12-14, we have the full context of the meaning and use of the gifts given to the Body of Christ by God.

Study this way and much of the Word of God is clear(er) in understanding :)

So on to point 2...



So I ask again. Which knowledge to enter Heaven? OR Can knowledge bring salvation? Let's find the way. :hug:Knowldge will not get you into heaven.... BUT, putting into ACTION the knowledge, is what makes the difference in being heaven bound or not.

So many Christians, to include even pastors, talk the talk but don't walk the talk and this is the difference between applying the Word of God, allowing the renewing of the mind, walking in the Spirit of God, being Christ-like and doing what Jesus did, etc.

So many know all ABOUT Jesus, but do they really KNOW Jesus??? Is there renewing of the mind? Do Christians APPLY the Word of God, or do they just say the Word of God is full of examples and leave it at that? If they leave it at that, are their mind's renewed :hmm: A Christian who says the Bible is only full of examples... clearly does not have a renewed mind because if they did, then those examples would be the norm in their lives and in thir church. Does a Christian walk in the Spirit and by being led by the Holy Spirit fears nothing and wages battle against satan? Is a Christian Christ-like and loves all, helps all as their ability and resources allow them to help others and when "their" ability fails, or is lacking... God steps in and provides whatever is needed.

Warrior
Dec 30th 2014, 07:29 PM
All the born-again Christians have went to meet Christ in the air. Leaving the unsaved. The scene starts as a Pastor in church has been "left behind". He can't believe how God has left him. He even uses some of the following scripture in his lines, as he gets mad, even throwing something that knocks over the Cross. ... Matt 7:21 ... Now we might say, it just a movie, a Pastor will never be "left behind". Maybe that's true, but not the issue.One, I haven't seen this Nicolas Cage movie, and I don't intend to, as my understanding is that it does great disservice to the Gospel and even to the LeHaye/Jenkins work "Left Behind." The first book in the series did a much better job of detailing the pastor's frustration -- the theatrics of the temper tantrum you describe not being part of it, from what I remember. And you put your finger on the problem right here:


The POINT IS, that he was a STUDIED man. A man who knew ALL THE WORDS needed, but yet was "left behind."That is the picture that LeHaye and Jenkins painted of their pastor in the story. Yes, he was a studied man, but knowing all the right words and even knowing how the process of salvation, justification, and sanctification works does him, nor any real person, any good if that knowledge isn't moved from the head into the heart -- or more appropriately, the soul and spirit.


So I WANT to be sure that my knowledge is correct and IF NOT that someone will point out to me, what the title thread answer is.

Which knowledge it takes to enter Heaven? OR Does knowledge bring salvation to enter Heaven?It does take a knowledge of the Gospel to be saved, but as James said, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves" (James 1:22, NASB). Being a mere hearer -- being preached to, even knowing the truth, and not acting on it, or not allowing it into the soul and the spirit for a life-change, does nothing. It is mere religion -- becoming rote, ritual, and method. Meanwhile, the flesh still rules in the quiet places where we think we can't be seen, and the spirit is still enslaved in the sinful scarred soul (Read: Hebrews 4:12).

Only when we take what we hear, believe it, and confess that we are indeed lost and in need of a Savior who is Christ, are we saved -- but that isn't the last "step" -- a misnomer because there are no "steps" to salvation but one and that is simply believe. No, the final step is outside of our control, to the extent of our sincerity. For God must accept that confession as true, valid, and salvic in nature.
Galatians 6, NASB
6 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
7 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I maintain this situation is precisely what Paul was talking about in this passage. We can claim to be anything we want to claim, including saved, but God is the final judge, and if He knows our seeking after Him was in any way deceitful or deceptive, we will indeed find that we have never been of His sheep. However, I believe anyone who stops to ask him- or herself "Am I truly saved?" has no worries. The one who doesn't ask, probably isn't.

All in all, I think it breaks down this way. You can have an intellectual conviction of the truth, but that isn't salvation. You can have an emotional experience that feels like salvation, but isn't -- because it wears off. You can have both, leading to a "spirit-and-soul-change" -- and that's salvation, because it is convicting not just in the mind, not just in the heart/emotions, but in the spirit, where change must take place.

keck553
Dec 30th 2014, 07:47 PM
Joseph's brothers were forgiven and didn't even have that knowledge. In fact, they created a false narrative seeking forgiveness because of that lack of understanding.

So, knowledge does not bring salvation, but it does help one understand it

Slug1
Dec 30th 2014, 07:58 PM
What really blows my mind concerning a topic like this is that when people begin to apply doctrine to answer the OP's questions... it don't matter what knowledge a person has or how they apply the knowledge. Some doctrines teach that only the one's God has elected, will be saved. Some doctrines state all can be saved BASED on their choice of belief and action of knowledge. Some doctrines say all will be saved no matter what... and I can go on and on.

The Bible says that all any person needs to do is BELIEVE in Christ and then the person may be saved and this is how easy it is, so easy a child can be saved without all the knowledge that the Bible provides. All they need to know is Jesus is the Son of God, He died and was resurrected from the dead so that they can be redeemed by believing in Him. Believe me, I've seen more children walking the talk, than adults in the many churches I've frequented over the years.

I've always said... if you know 25% of the Word of God but apply 100% of that 25%, you are much better off than knowing 90% of the Word of God and only apply 25% of that 90%. This is the difference between talking the talk and walking the talk... and even a child walking 100% of the 25% they talk... are in a MUCH better position with God than an adult who knows 90% but only walks 25%.

Warrior
Dec 30th 2014, 08:17 PM
The Bible says that all any person needs to do is BELIEVE in Christ and then the person may be saved and this is how easy it is, so easy a child can be saved without all the knowledge that the Bible provides. All they need to know is Jesus is the Son of God, He died and was resurrected from the dead so that they can be redeemed by believing in Him. Believe me, I've seen more children walking the talk, than adults in the many churches I've frequented over the years.If there is "belief" with no life-change, is that salvation?

It is my contention that belief is enough, but it must be the right kind of belief. After all, it says "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (James 2:19, NASB), but the half-brother of Christ by know means is saying the demons are saved. And this is the Greek pisteuo of which saving faith is made up! But even though the demons believe with that level of conviction, they being spirits, first of all, can not be saved -- they are as they have determined to be, for eternity. We, however, have the ability, through that same kind of faith, to attain salvation -- but not if there is no evidence of life-change. If there is none, then we have not believed. We have only "known" or "emoted" our way into self-delusion.


I've always said... if you know 25% of the Word of God but apply 100% of that 25%, you are much better off than knowing 90% of the Word of God and only apply 25% of that 90%.Which 25% of the Word is sufficient for salvation? No offense, Slug, that saying has a nice self-satisfying conclusiveness to it, but it doesn't capture the truth. What we need to know to be saved is the Gospel of Christ. If we can grasp that 1) Being a sinner makes us "lost" -- separated from God, 2) We are such a sinner and in need of a Savior, 3) Christ, through His death and resurrection, has healed that separation on our behalf, and therefore can be our Savior, 4) Confess that need with conviction and sincerity to God, in whatever form or fashion we choose to make that confession known to Him, then we are saved. Period. And that's all we need to know for that moment. We can learn the rest later.


This is the difference between talking the talk and walking the talk ...That difference is found in how we live, not in what we know, though it is difficult to live in that fashion without knowing the rest of the truth.

divaD
Dec 30th 2014, 08:30 PM
If knowledge alone can't save you, doesn't this prove salvation is based on works then?

Slug1
Dec 30th 2014, 08:31 PM
If there is "belief" with no life-change, is that salvation?

It is my contention that belief is enough, but it must be the right kind of belief. After all, it says "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (James 2:19, NASB), but the half-brother of Christ by know means is saying the demons are saved. And this is the Greek pisteuo of which saving faith is made up! But even though the demons believe with that level of conviction, they being spirits, first of all, can not be saved -- they are as they have determined to be, for eternity. We, however, have the ability, through that same kind of faith, to attain salvation -- but not if there is no evidence of life-change. If there is none, then we have not believed. We have only "known" or "emoted" our way into self-delusion.Plenty of people who accept Christ do not have an immediate OUTWARD "life" change. I know I didn't. Internally, I was redeemed, born-again but did I jump for joy, did I radiate holiness, did my demeaner change, NOPE! I accepted Christ and then turned right around and in 10 minutes was yelling at my troops to hurry up in cleaning their weapons and later that night, I informed the person who had been witnessing to me, I did accept Christ. Through proper discipleship, then the changing began as renewing of the mind happened.

So, even out there on the streets and in witnessing to a person, they accept Christ and I don't see them dancing around in joy... belief has taken effect, hearing the Gospel has birthed faith, discipleship will enable the walking as the changes happen over the rest of their lifetime.


Which 25% of the Word is sufficient for salvation? No offense, Slug, that saying has a nice self-satisfying conclusiveness to it, but it doesn't capture the truth. What we need to know to be saved is the Gospel of Christ. If we can grasp that 1) Being a sinner makes us "lost" -- separated from God, 2) We are such a sinner and in need of a Savior, 3) Christ, through His death and resurrection, has healed that separation on our behalf, and therefore can be our Savior, 4) Confess that need with conviction and sincerity to God, in whatever form or fashion we choose to make that confession known to Him, then we are saved. Period. And that's all we need to know for that moment. We can learn the rest later.I could have been clear and spelled out that 25% isn't stories like Noah Ark, and Samson but the Gospel.

I mean literally, of the Gospel and all the New Testiment, how much is needed to be understood to make that decision to believe in Christ? 5%, maybe 10%? Look at the eunuch with Philip... simply undestood that Jesus was the Son of God and accepted this. So what's that... 1% of the whole Gospel?


That difference is found in how we live, not in what we know, though it is difficult to live in that fashion without knowing the rest of the truth.Yes, how we live is referred to as "the walk" and the knowing the truth is "the talk".

We just said the same thing... just that I use terms that Biblicaly unlearned people out on the streets understand.

You've never heard the "talking the talk" vs. "walking the talk"?

Warrior
Dec 30th 2014, 08:44 PM
Plenty of people who accept Christ do not have an immediate OUTWARD "life" change.I didn't say it had to be "immediate." And we have plateaus in our faith-walk, too, periods when for whatever reason, we don't grow. We let the "thorns and thistles" of life grow up around us and distract us from allowing God's sanctification into our lives.


I know I didn't. Internally, I was redeemed, born-again but did I jump for joy, did I radiate holiness, did my demeaner change, NOPE! I accepted Christ and then turned right around and in 10 minutes was yelling at my troops to hurry up in cleaning their weapons and later that night, I informed the person who had been witnessing to me, I did accept Christ. Through proper discipleship, then the changing began as renewing of the mind happened.An oft-told story, for certain, from many, many lives. In their heart, however -- in your heart -- the knowledge of that change and renewal reigned, am I right?


]I mean literally, of the Gospel and all the New Testiment, how much is needed to be understood to make that decision to believe in Christ? 5%, maybe 10%? Look at the eunuch with Philip... simply undestood that Jesus was the Son of God and accepted this. So what's that... 1% of the whole Gospel?He was reading from Isaiah, and I have the impression, from his question, that it was what we call Isaiah 53. That is the complete picture of the Messiah, and having just come from Jerusalem, he had heard the story of Christ from others, no doubt. He put two and two together, with Philip's help, and that convinced him not just of Christ's Sonship, but of His Messiah-ship as well.


Yes, how we live is referred to as "the walk" and the knowing the truth is "the talk".

We just said the same thing... just that I use terms that Biblicaly unlearned people out on the streets understand.

You've never heard the "talking the talk" vs. "walking the talk"?I've heard it. I just cringe a little at it, though I've even used it myself. It is a bit of an oversimplification, but then again, sometimes it is best to practice the "KISS" principle, even with the Gospel. :lol:

Aijalon
Dec 30th 2014, 08:47 PM
The Jews had the knowledge of the Law, the Oracles of God, yet this did not bring them Salvation. No. Knowledge does not bring Salvation.

In terms of who is "left behind" and who is taking up with Christ, there is a debate as to whether it is possible that there be anyone at all "left" as most people conclude that there are only two conditions "unsaved" and "saved".

In the case of only two conditions, if the saints are raptured, ALL THE REST must be destroyed by fire. This leaves no mortal humans on earth left. No more procreation. No more marriage. No nations, no governments....

There is truly very little room for a third group of left behind Christians who miss the rapture, but yet the outcome of the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming leave little room to conclude anything else because we know that life goes on.

Many will come to God and say ... but he will say I NEVER KNEW YOU. How did these people get access to approach God, and what is the spiritual condition of the this group. Is this the Great White throne of Judgement post millennium? is it preliminary judgment of the survivors on earth after Armageddon? (assuming a premil viewpoint).

Taking the Sodom and Gomorrah account as an example. There are two types of judgement. One by fire, the other salt. The righteous escape the fire, and bring along the uncertain. The uncertain are judged later, if they look back, not desiring the kingdom of God even though the angel of the Lord is right in front of them.

Slug1
Dec 30th 2014, 08:53 PM
I've heard it. I just cringe a little at it, though I've even used it myself. It is a bit of an oversimplification, but then again, sometimes it is best to practice the "KISS" principle, even with the Gospel. :lol:I stay in the trenches so i have to break the Word of God down to a level that children can understand. This is a problem in the Body of Christ today... many surround themselves with mature Christians and have forgotten what it's like to be a babe.

I've had mature Christians even tell me that they have no need for God's supernatural help in their lives and thus, no need for any supernatural intervention from God. Their faith is solid, blah, blah, blah.

Well, what about the babe in Christ sitting next to such a lofty mature Christian who is high on the scent of the clouds that their head is in? :rolleyes: That babe isn't in need of God doing something special in their life to help their faith grow? God has to find another babe in Christ who is MORE grounded in reality than the lofty Christian and use another babe in a supernatural way?

This is a babe, knowing 25% and applying 100% of the 25% they know.

Warrior
Dec 30th 2014, 09:01 PM
TIn terms of who is "left behind" and who is taking up with Christ, there is a debate as to whether it is possible that there be anyone at all "left" as most people conclude that there are only two conditions "unsaved" and "saved".

In the case of only two conditions, if the saints are raptured, ALL THE REST must be destroyed by fire. This leaves no mortal humans on earth left. No more procreation. No more marriage. No nations, no governments.... IF one believes in a post-tribulation rapture, yes. Otherwise ...

But that's not what PA's thread is about, so both our comments are ...

12562

:thumbsup:

Protective Angel
Dec 31st 2014, 01:01 AM
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]One, I haven't seen this Nicolas Cage movie]

I didn't see this movie either. I watched the older one with Kirk Cameron on the TBN network. ;)

Protective Angel
Dec 31st 2014, 01:19 AM
I've always said... if you know 25% of the Word of God but apply 100% of that 25%, you are much better off than knowing 90% of the Word of God and only apply 25% of that 90%. This is the difference between talking the talk and walking the talk... and even a child walking 100% of the 25% they talk... are in a MUCH better position with God than an adult who knows 90% but only walks 25%.

Wow... much said here. :hug: