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unknownservant
Feb 27th 2015, 08:50 PM
Ever wonder where we came from?




Take a look at this:




Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.




GOD is creating! It will be a few days still before we are here in the flesh, but we're coming!

Now, take a look at the word 'was' in Genesis 1:2 in it's original Hebrew meaning:




H1961
היהhâyâhhaw-yaw'A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
It means be, or become. So, in Genesis 1:2, it actually says that the earth became without form and void.
Why did the earth become without form and void? Well, if you look at Genesis, GOD is creating, and HE says each step was good. But why DID the earth become without form and void? Because before that, GOD was angry, plenty angry! He destroyed the entire age that existed before this one. Then HE created this one to give us a chance to come back to HIM.
The verses above look at the earth when it became without form and void and go forward in time. Now lets take a look at the same point in time, but this time, lets look backwards in time to see what happened.
Take a look at this:

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Take a look at verse 4:22, and you'll see that people are very good at making GOD angry. The reason that GOD destroyed the last age though, is because 1/3 of GOD'S children teamed with satan to try and take GOD'S THRONE.
If you look at verse 4:23, you'll see, that is our time marker. It's the point in time where the earth is without form, and void.
This time, however, we are looking backwards in time. And GOD is not creating and saying that it was good. GOD is destroying things. In actuality, HE is destroying the entire age. If you read the rest of those verses, you will see that there was no man in flesh bodies yet. There were birds and cities, but they were broken down by the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Also, notice that the heavens above are made black. So, it wasn't just the earth that went through destruction, the stars did as well.
Also notice that even though GOD had not created anything as listed in Genesis yet, there are cities and birds. Remember, we are at the point in time where the earth was without form and void. The reason is that it was the age before this one. And even though there was an age before this one, there is yet another age to come. There are three, total. And the next age is for Eternity. And for those of us who make it, we will never have to go through this again!

Bandit
Feb 27th 2015, 09:21 PM
Hello unknownservant,

i appreciate your attempt to prove the 'gap' theory, but as many others have tried to do before, you are trying really hard to press a lot of stuff/time into Genesis 1:2. Attempt this as you may, I don't see the need for it.

unknownservant
Feb 27th 2015, 10:38 PM
Hello unknownservant,

i appreciate your attempt to prove the 'gap' theory, but as many others have tried to do before, you are trying really hard to press a lot of stuff/time into Genesis 1:2. Attempt this as you may, I don't see the need for it.

Hi Bandit,

How are you?
I understand what you are saying, but there may be many people out there who are not aware of these things. It doesn't hurt to bring it to their attention. Also, the logic is there to support it anyway. Thanks though, for your input on it. What are your thoughts on the point in Jeremiah where it says the earth was without form and void? To my knowledge, the only place that the earth was in that state was in Genesis. That is why I think it is a reference to Genesis.

unknownservant

Bandit
Feb 27th 2015, 10:44 PM
Hi Bandit,

How are you?
I understand what you are saying, but there may be many people out there who are not aware of these things. It doesn't hurt to bring it to their attention. Also, the logic is there to support it anyway. Thanks though, for your input on it. What are your thoughts on the point in Jeremiah where it says the earth was without form and void? To my knowledge, the only place that the earth was in that state was in Genesis. That is why I think it is a reference to Genesis.

unknownservant

What logic is there to support the 'gap' theory you are proposing? You are attempting to 'stuff' a lot of things into Genesis 1:2. Why do you think this necessary?

unknownservant
Feb 27th 2015, 10:48 PM
What logic is there to support the 'gap' theory you are proposing? You are attempting to 'stuff' a lot of things into Genesis 1:2. Why do you think this necessary?

It's just a discussion. Many scholars discuss the same things. I just want comment on the points where it says the earth was without form and void.

petrobb
Feb 28th 2015, 12:11 AM
It's just a discussion. Many scholars discuss the same things. I just want comment on the points where it says the earth was without form and void.

the verb hayah cannot be pressed as your theory presses it in Genesis 1.1-2. It basically means 'was'. Only the context can give it a different meaning. ha aretz wa ha aretz hayah shows that the new verse is defining the word in the previous verse. Up to this point it has not been explained. Thus hayah must mean 'was'.

Furthermore the earth being 'barren and empty' is not a description of God's activity in anger but an indication of the unformed nature of His creation. He had, as it were, created the bare bones now He would put flesh on them. There are no grounds at all (apart from an apologetic theory) for introducing a gap.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2015, 01:03 AM
Well, I call it the gap fact, but I don't think Jeremiah 4 is referencing Genesis 1. In Genesis 1 the earth was covered in water. I think Jeremiah 4 is about the future.

Zep 1:3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.

unknownservant
Feb 28th 2015, 01:48 AM
Well, I call it the gap fact, but I don't think Jeremiah 4 is referencing Genesis 1. In Genesis 1 the earth was covered in water. I think Jeremiah 4 is about the future.

Zep 1:3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.

I'm just curious why these two verses are the only place in the Bible that reference the term 'without form, and void' unless they somehow relate to each other. I feel it is a time marker or reference point.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Bandit
Feb 28th 2015, 12:06 PM
I'm just curious why these two verses are the only place in the Bible that reference the term 'without form, and void' unless they somehow relate to each other. I feel it is a time marker or reference point.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Hello unknownservant,

A lot of people make all sorts of conclusions that are not justified. You can build whatever kind of narrative you want, and connect whatever verses/passages (like these) you need as support/proof thereof, but I don't think anyone here is going to buy into the connections/conclusions you are trying to make. That is my :2cents: worth for this discussion.

carboy
Feb 28th 2015, 12:21 PM
The word "and" is one of the strongest conjunctives in Hebrew. Some would say the strongest. We could make a case for a massive explosion, space, matter, water and then, energy,(boom). Vs. 2a describes the state of the earth or matter, shapeless and empty.

I find my conclusions interesting also.

The Real Milk Man
Feb 28th 2015, 01:17 PM
...... there is yet another age to come. And the next age is for Eternity. And for those of us who make it, ....


Psalm 136:2, O give thanks to the God of gods, ..." (O give thanks to the God of gods, ..). The "son's of God" (Rom 8:19, 32 Eph. 4:13) will enter the age to come (Luke 20:35-36) like Melchizedek (Heb. 7:3, without beginning of days, nor end of life); and with a divine nature (2 Pet.1:4). Why will they be like Melchizedek? -- Isaiah 65:17, "I am making a new Earth and a new Heaven. The events of the past (in this present age and before) will be completely forgotten and they will not come to mind."


John 11:25-26
John 14:23-24
Luke 6:46-49 --> Acts 3:22-23


1 Cor. 2:9-10

Noeb
Feb 28th 2015, 03:40 PM
I'm just curious why these two verses are the only place in the Bible that reference the term 'without form, and void' unless they somehow relate to each other. I feel it is a time marker or reference point.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jeremiah's a prophet. They used language in many ways for many reasons.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2015, 03:45 PM
I don't think anyone here is going to buy into the connections/conclusions you are trying to make.Lots of people 'buy into' the 'angelic conflict'. Lots of people 'buy into' scripture, that the earth is old and went under construction in Genesis 1. Don't pretend it's a minority.

Bandit
Feb 28th 2015, 04:21 PM
Lots of people 'buy into' the 'angelic conflict'. Lots of people 'buy into' scripture, that the earth is old and went under construction in Genesis 1. Don't pretend it's a minority.

Actually, I think it is a minority of people who believe this stuff, but if you want to think this is a major view... that is fine by me.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2015, 04:23 PM
Old earthers a minority? Fine if you wanna believe that. Whatever floats your boat.

Bandit
Feb 28th 2015, 04:49 PM
Old earthers a minority? Fine if you wanna believe that. Whatever floats your boat.

I think unknownservant is talking a bit more than just the earth being old.

percho
Feb 28th 2015, 07:33 PM
Hello unknownservant,

A lot of people make all sorts of conclusions that are not justified. You can build whatever kind of narrative you want, and connect whatever verses/passages (like these) you need as support/proof thereof, but I don't think anyone here is going to buy into the connections/conclusions you are trying to make. That is my :2cents: worth for this discussion.

Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Dan 10:11,12

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:5

Is this present world of darkness subject to angels, good and bad? If yes, from when?

What would be your understanding of Heb 2:5 relative that passage from Daniel? What is going on in this present world, of darkness od which the light of God shines our of the darkness thereof. 2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Was the world of Genesis put in subjection to the man Adam? Consider: Hebrews 2 and picking up following verse 5 above. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, (Adam?) that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

What is the world to come and when will it come and what man, will it be in subjection?

unknownservant
Mar 1st 2015, 01:51 AM
Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Dan 10:11,12

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:5

Is this present world of darkness subject to angels, good and bad? If yes, from when?

What would be your understanding of Heb 2:5 relative that passage from Daniel? What is going on in this present world, of darkness od which the light of God shines our of the darkness thereof. 2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Was the world of Genesis put in subjection to the man Adam? Consider: Hebrews 2 and picking up following verse 5 above. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, (Adam?) that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

What is the world to come and when will it come and what man, will it be in subjection?

The world to come is the eternity and it is all, and all things are put under JESUS. The children of GOD from the last age, through this age, are being given a chance to make it to that world to come, by JESUS and through JESUS. There is no other name by which we can be saved.

Soldier_of_Faith
Mar 1st 2015, 07:39 AM
Ever wonder where we came from?




Take a look at this:




Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.




GOD is creating! It will be a few days still before we are here in the flesh, but we're coming!

Now, take a look at the word 'was' in Genesis 1:2 in it's original Hebrew meaning:




H1961
היהhâyâhhaw-yaw'A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
It means be, or become. So, in Genesis 1:2, it actually says that the earth became without form and void.
Why did the earth become without form and void? Well, if you look at Genesis, GOD is creating, and HE says each step was good. But why DID the earth become without form and void? Because before that, GOD was angry, plenty angry! He destroyed the entire age that existed before this one. Then HE created this one to give us a chance to come back to HIM.
The verses above look at the earth when it became without form and void and go forward in time. Now lets take a look at the same point in time, but this time, lets look backwards in time to see what happened.
Take a look at this:

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Take a look at verse 4:22, and you'll see that people are very good at making GOD angry. The reason that GOD destroyed the last age though, is because 1/3 of GOD'S children teamed with satan to try and take GOD'S THRONE.
If you look at verse 4:23, you'll see, that is our time marker. It's the point in time where the earth is without form, and void.
This time, however, we are looking backwards in time. And GOD is not creating and saying that it was good. GOD is destroying things. In actuality, HE is destroying the entire age. If you read the rest of those verses, you will see that there was no man in flesh bodies yet. There were birds and cities, but they were broken down by the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Also, notice that the heavens above are made black. So, it wasn't just the earth that went through destruction, the stars did as well.
Also notice that even though GOD had not created anything as listed in Genesis yet, there are cities and birds. Remember, we are at the point in time where the earth was without form and void. The reason is that it was the age before this one. And even though there was an age before this one, there is yet another age to come. There are three, total. And the next age is for Eternity. And for those of us who make it, we will never have to go through this again!


LOL unknownservant... Let me ask you something... How did that existence of the planet earth before Genesis exist without light? Was light BAD before, so God destroyed it? God is Light... How could it have been bad? All the creatures that most gap theorists believe in like Dinosaurs, which existed in the first age, HAVE EYES, so there must have been LIGHT. LOL... Gap theory is kaput! Don't even waist your time on that nonsense. Light was created BEFORE stars. Let me show YOU something...

1) In the Beginning God Spoke and Jesus created Heaven the dwelling place of God, and a ball of water, a very large one encompassing probably a large part of what we might call the known universe.

2) In its center may have been a spec of dirt, but not necessarily. The water was without form, just a giant glob with a spec in the middle. There was no "Space" around it, only Heaven and a Ball of Water (It may have even been in the midst of Heaven). There was no light, there was only God the Father, God the Son, and the God the Holy Spirit. If He created Angels at this point, fine. But they were in darkness. Someone had to minister to God in Heaven, so I suppose He could.

3) God Spoke and Jesus stood in front of the ball of water and created light. There was no darkness, no shadow, so light was EVERYWHERE. In EVERY crease in every crevasse. There was NO DARKNESS ANYWHERE. This was ambient light. But without darkness everything was WHITE, there was no form or ability to see in that light, as darkness brings depth to an image.

4) Jesus then took the light upon Himself, and shone over the earth like the bright morning Star. This created shadows, now that light was emanating from one location. He separated Light from darkness by removing ambient light and creating focused light. JESUS WAS THE LIGHT OF THE EARTH.

5) The earth ball of water began to spin, which would have made the ball of water spherical, removing the label of void and without form. And Jesus called the darkness night and the light day. As the sphere of water rotated around one time in front of Him shining upon it.

6) God Spoke, and Jesus created a separation between all but a small amount of water above the dirt in the midst of the water. All that water expanded, thinned, and moved away from the small globe of water within it's center, where-in there was earth in the center of the globe of water. That expanding bubble of water created the 1st and Second Heavens above the earth, as the Third Heaven was already created outside of the bubble. Space was between the globe called earth and the expanding bubble which expanded immensely.

7) In doing this, God had created the Firmament, the 2nd Heavens, and Jesus created the vacuum of SPACE. Then Jesus separated some of the water from the face of the Globe called earth to make the first heavens, the atmosphere for the earth which sat below the firmament, but above the waters.

8) God called the firmament Heaven, just as we do when we look up today, and the earth completed a second rotation while Jesus stood before it shining with Light upon the earth.

9) And God Spoke, and Jesus created Land by separating waters and bringing land up above them, creating a land mass of dirt. (not bones and dirt... Just dirt...)

10) God called the dry dirt EARTH and the gatherings of waters, seas. (There will be no seas in the New heaven and New Earth by the way... This part of the recreation will be missing...)

11) As Jesus shone His light upon the blue and brown globe, God spoke and Jesus made grass, and herbs and trees come up out of the dirt, all with fruit and seeds.

12-13) The grass, hers and trees all had there reproductive systems that functioned according to their Kind. They could not cross pollinate species. The earth completed a third rotation in front of Jesus, completing the third day.

14-15) And God said and Jesus Created The solar system planets and gathered them into their paths, and created their moons and created their orbits. In the firmament Above Earth He did this. God commanded for them to be used to tell night from day, and to be for SIGNS to those on the earth, and to mark Seasons on earth, for days and Years. (Notice the Earth's Moon and Sun have not yet been created at this point. We can tell Days and years by the Solar System planets, but not MONTHS. Months are told by OUR MOON! Hours and minutes are also told by our SUN! But believe it of not, you can tell a day by the planets. Watch until it re-appears at the horizon during one rotation. A day has passed...) The light of Jesus shown on them and they could be seen from earth.

16-19) And God Said, and Jesus Created two greater Lights. One the Sun, and the other the Moon. And with the Sun, God spoke and Jesus Created all the stars of the universe, and all their planets and all their moons. He placed them into Galaxies and set their rotations and paths. He then set His light upon the sun, and the stars, so that they could give light for all that He had created. And God made the Sun and the Moon to rule over night and day, creating time in minutes and Hours and Months to go with the days and years. The earth now finished the rotation with the Sun at Jesus' back, and the earth in front, and the Forth day was over.

ect ect ect... Do you really think he did all this TWO times? God Does not make mistakes, as He is PERFECT... So if you think fallen angels messed up the First earth, WHY NOT DESTROY THEM WITH IT? Then Create a new one. Satan was the FIRST Angel ever to sin, guarantied! And He sinned on OUR Earth.

unknownservant
Mar 1st 2015, 06:44 PM
LOL unknownservant... Let me ask you something... How did that existence of the planet earth before Genesis exist without light? Was light BAD before, so God destroyed it? God is Light... How could it have been bad? All the creatures that most gap theorists believe in like Dinosaurs, which existed in the first age, HAVE EYES, so there must have been LIGHT. LOL... Gap theory is kaput! Don't even waist your time on that nonsense. Light was created BEFORE stars. Let me show YOU something...

1) In the Beginning God Spoke and Jesus created Heaven the dwelling place of God, and a ball of water, a very large one encompassing probably a large part of what we might call the known universe.

2) In its center may have been a spec of dirt, but not necessarily. The water was without form, just a giant glob with a spec in the middle. There was no "Space" around it, only Heaven and a Ball of Water (It may have even been in the midst of Heaven). There was no light, there was only God the Father, God the Son, and the God the Holy Spirit. If He created Angels at this point, fine. But they were in darkness. Someone had to minister to God in Heaven, so I suppose He could.

3) God Spoke and Jesus stood in front of the ball of water and created light. There was no darkness, no shadow, so light was EVERYWHERE. In EVERY crease in every crevasse. There was NO DARKNESS ANYWHERE. This was ambient light. But without darkness everything was WHITE, there was no form or ability to see in that light, as darkness brings depth to an image.

4) Jesus then took the light upon Himself, and shone over the earth like the bright morning Star. This created shadows, now that light was emanating from one location. He separated Light from darkness by removing ambient light and creating focused light. JESUS WAS THE LIGHT OF THE EARTH.

5) The earth ball of water began to spin, which would have made the ball of water spherical, removing the label of void and without form. And Jesus called the darkness night and the light day. As the sphere of water rotated around one time in front of Him shining upon it.

6) God Spoke, and Jesus created a separation between all but a small amount of water above the dirt in the midst of the water. All that water expanded, thinned, and moved away from the small globe of water within it's center, where-in there was earth in the center of the globe of water. That expanding bubble of water created the 1st and Second Heavens above the earth, as the Third Heaven was already created outside of the bubble. Space was between the globe called earth and the expanding bubble which expanded immensely.

7) In doing this, God had created the Firmament, the 2nd Heavens, and Jesus created the vacuum of SPACE. Then Jesus separated some of the water from the face of the Globe called earth to make the first heavens, the atmosphere for the earth which sat below the firmament, but above the waters.

8) God called the firmament Heaven, just as we do when we look up today, and the earth completed a second rotation while Jesus stood before it shining with Light upon the earth.

9) And God Spoke, and Jesus created Land by separating waters and bringing land up above them, creating a land mass of dirt. (not bones and dirt... Just dirt...)

10) God called the dry dirt EARTH and the gatherings of waters, seas. (There will be no seas in the New heaven and New Earth by the way... This part of the recreation will be missing...)

11) As Jesus shone His light upon the blue and brown globe, God spoke and Jesus made grass, and herbs and trees come up out of the dirt, all with fruit and seeds.

12-13) The grass, hers and trees all had there reproductive systems that functioned according to their Kind. They could not cross pollinate species. The earth completed a third rotation in front of Jesus, completing the third day.

14-15) And God said and Jesus Created The solar system planets and gathered them into their paths, and created their moons and created their orbits. In the firmament Above Earth He did this. God commanded for them to be used to tell night from day, and to be for SIGNS to those on the earth, and to mark Seasons on earth, for days and Years. (Notice the Earth's Moon and Sun have not yet been created at this point. We can tell Days and years by the Solar System planets, but not MONTHS. Months are told by OUR MOON! Hours and minutes are also told by our SUN! But believe it of not, you can tell a day by the planets. Watch until it re-appears at the horizon during one rotation. A day has passed...) The light of Jesus shown on them and they could be seen from earth.

16-19) And God Said, and Jesus Created two greater Lights. One the Sun, and the other the Moon. And with the Sun, God spoke and Jesus Created all the stars of the universe, and all their planets and all their moons. He placed them into Galaxies and set their rotations and paths. He then set His light upon the sun, and the stars, so that they could give light for all that He had created. And God made the Sun and the Moon to rule over night and day, creating time in minutes and Hours and Months to go with the days and years. The earth now finished the rotation with the Sun at Jesus' back, and the earth in front, and the Forth day was over.

ect ect ect... Do you really think he did all this TWO times? God Does not make mistakes, as He is PERFECT... So if you think fallen angels messed up the First earth, WHY NOT DESTROY THEM WITH IT? Then Create a new one. Satan was the FIRST Angel ever to sin, guarantied! And He sinned on OUR Earth.

Hi Soldier_Of_Faith,

I think you are just misunderstanding the overall sequence of events of what happened. The devil wanted to take GOD'S THRONE and convinced 1/3 of GOD'S children to join with him to do that. That happened in the last age. GOD chose to destroy the age instead of destroying HIS children, so that HE could give HIS children a chance to come back to HIM. That is why we are here in flesh. We are getting that chance to choose GOD or satan now. Based on the signs of the end time, this age is almost over.

This sign took place in Heaven, not on earth:

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The dragon knew of the plan for JESUS to come and save us and tried to stop that plan. Obviously, satan was unsuccessful.

ProDeo
Mar 1st 2015, 09:40 PM
Hi Soldier_Of_Faith,

I think you are just misunderstanding the overall sequence of events of what happened. The devil wanted to take GOD'S THRONE and convinced 1/3 of GOD'S children to join with him to do that. That happened in the last age. GOD chose to destroy the age instead of destroying HIS children, so that HE could give HIS children a chance to come back to HIM. That is why we are here in flesh. We are getting that chance to choose GOD or satan now. Based on the signs of the end time, this age is almost over.
So what you are saying is that you are a fallen angel given a second chance.

unknownservant
Mar 1st 2015, 10:59 PM
So what you are saying is that you are a fallen angel given a second chance.

Hmm!,
No, fallen angels don't get a second chance. They did not come here in flesh. We are GOD'S children that did not refuse to come here in the flesh (Hebrews 2) that are getting the chance.

Soldier_of_Faith
Mar 2nd 2015, 07:24 AM
Hi Soldier_Of_Faith,

I think you are just misunderstanding the overall sequence of events of what happened. The devil wanted to take GOD'S THRONE and convinced 1/3 of GOD'S children to join with him to do that. That happened in the last age. GOD chose to destroy the age instead of destroying HIS children, so that HE could give HIS children a chance to come back to HIM. That is why we are here in flesh. We are getting that chance to choose GOD or satan now. Based on the signs of the end time, this age is almost over.

This sign took place in Heaven, not on earth:

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The dragon knew of the plan for JESUS to come and save us and tried to stop that plan. Obviously, satan was unsuccessful.

Well, so if you are saying there was not a 1st earth before this one, a was misunderstanding. However if you are saying that Heaven existed before earth, I don't believe that, as Gen 1:1 indicates they were created at the same time. Did the spirit of God hover over the face of the deep for eons while God let the Angels sin and fall? And fall to where? They were cast down to something bu the dragon's tail. But wait... Lucifer can not be a serpent or a Dragon until after Eve was deceived by the SeprEnt. That is WHY revelation calls Satan the DRAGON. You can not tie ANY of Revelation 12 into a Gap theory. Sorry, not possible. And PRIMARILY Because Satan IS CALLED THE DRAGON.

Now, I will show you where Satan cast them out of Heaven: Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

We know that the Sons of God were angels here because we have strange beings called Giants created RIGHT AFTER these "sons" and the daughters of Men mate. They had never appeared before this deviation from the norm. IN genealogy, this should not have happened if all flesh is from the same seed, ADAM and EVE.

Satan was involved in this because He apparently had a part in sending them down to watch the humans with Him. The Book of Enoch actually goes into depth about this scenario, however I do not hold that book as a Cannon book of the Bible, But I do find it interesting that it plays out that scenario very logically.

Soldier_of_Faith
Mar 2nd 2015, 07:26 AM
Hmm!,
No, fallen angels don't get a second chance. They did not come here in flesh. We are GOD'S children that did not refuse to come here in the flesh (Hebrews 2) that are getting the chance.

But doesn't Satan get another chance? Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season...7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

ProDeo
Mar 2nd 2015, 09:21 AM
Hi Soldier_Of_Faith,

I think you are just misunderstanding the overall sequence of events of what happened. The devil wanted to take GOD'S THRONE and convinced 1/3 of GOD'S children to join with him to do that. That happened in the last age. GOD chose to destroy the age instead of destroying HIS children, so that HE could give HIS children a chance to come back to HIM. That is why we are here in flesh. We are getting that chance to choose GOD or satan now. Based on the signs of the end time, this age is almost over.


So what you are saying is that you are a fallen angel given a second chance.


Hmm!,
No, fallen angels don't get a second chance. They did not come here in flesh. We are GOD'S children that did not refuse to come here in the flesh (Hebrews 2) that are getting the chance.
Then you should rewrite the red above.

It exactly states what I said earlier, that you believe the whole human race belongs to that 1/3 in rebellion.

unknownservant
Mar 2nd 2015, 09:12 PM
Then you should rewrite the red above.

It exactly states what I said earlier, that you believe the whole human race belongs to that 1/3 in rebellion.

No, the red does not need to be rewritten. You have to study more deeply. Basically the 1/3 rebelled, but the others did nothing. They did not stand up for or with GOD. Those that stood with GOD are called GOD'S elect. They are already justified. In any case, it's too long of a study to cover here. To get an idea of how it all comes out, read these verses from Ezekiel and realize that the hair is symbolic of GOD'S children. That will tell you what happens to the three thirds and the elect.

Eze 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.
Eze 5:2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.
Eze 5:3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.
Eze 5:4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

Remember, the books of the Old Testament are types or models of the end time.

percho
Mar 3rd 2015, 06:41 AM
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14

Is the redemption of man a by product of the above?

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Romans 7:14

Was Adam created in the image of God, sold under sin, in order that the Son of God could come as the Son of Man to destroy the devil and his works, including the power of death and thus redeem the man who had been sold.

Was this determined from/before the foundation of the world because the devil and his works, including the power of death existed before God said, "Let there be light"?

I thought this post would be relevant to this thread also per the last question.

unknownservant
Mar 3rd 2015, 07:00 AM
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14

Is the redemption of man a by product of the above?

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Romans 7:14

Was Adam created in the image of God, sold under sin, in order that the Son of God could come as the Son of Man to destroy the devil and his works, including the power of death and thus redeem the man who had been sold.

Was this determined from/before the foundation of the world because the devil and his works, including the power of death existed before God said, "Let there be light"?

I thought this post would be relevant to this thread also per the last question.

It is relevant. As you can see, JESUS partook of flesh in the same way as the children did. That means in a likewise manner. If two people take part in a dinner in a likewise manner, that means they do it in the same way. For example, both sitting at the table and from the same vantage point partaking. So, as you can see, we came from the same place that JESUS did and took part in the flesh in the same way that HE did. That means we were there before we were here. And it is also shown very easily that many things happened before the foundation of this earth started. This is only one part where you can see these things in scripture. It is shown in more places in the Bible.

ProDeo
Mar 3rd 2015, 11:05 AM
No, the red does not need to be rewritten. You have to study more deeply. Basically the 1/3 rebelled, but the others did nothing. They did not stand up for or with GOD. Those that stood with GOD are called GOD'S elect. They are already justified. In any case, it's too long of a study to cover here. To get an idea of how it all comes out, read these verses from Ezekiel and realize that the hair is symbolic of GOD'S children. That will tell you what happens to the three thirds and the elect.
Please provide Scripture for the red, blue and green.

Your theory also insists on pre-existence of your soul, then being born as a baby here and you not realizing your former life.

Where in Scripture?

Smells to Mormonism and Swedenborg.



Eze 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.
Eze 5:2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.
Eze 5:3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.
Eze 5:4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

Remember, the books of the Old Testament are types or models of the end time.
Perhaps context matters?

Chapter 4 - The Siege of Jerusalem Symbolized
Chapter 5 - Jerusalem Will Be Destroyed

Nothing to do with your theory.

unknownservant
Mar 3rd 2015, 11:26 PM
Please provide Scripture for the red, blue and green.

Your theory also insists on pre-existence of your soul, then being born as a baby here and you not realizing your former life.

Where in Scripture?

Smells to Mormonism and Swedenborg.



Perhaps context matters?

Chapter 4 - The Siege of Jerusalem Symbolized
Chapter 5 - Jerusalem Will Be Destroyed

Nothing to do with your theory.

In the comment that I made, I said that what I was stating was too much to cover here and that actually is the case. If you study over a long period of time, you will see the information is there. I could possibly provide scripture for the red, green and blue that may give a path to that information, but that is too much of an endeavor to cover in this forum. As far as context goes, there is always a reason for the teachings of the Old Testament.

1Co_10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Note that 'the ends of the world' actually means 'the ends of the age', which means the last generation or end time generation in the verse above.

You already know without it being pointed out that the flesh is a veil. What is the purpose of a veil?

You also know of the predestined ones. Why are they predestined? Who are they?

The mormons believe in reincarnation, that is a seriously misleading false doctrine. It has nothing to do with our preexistence.

If you wish to learn of our preexistence, consider those whose names were written in the Book Of Life from the Foundation of the world and why they were written in the Book at that time.
Also consider Romans chapter 9 and why GOD hated Esau. If you read those verses carefully, you will see that GOD had patience with those that were fit for destruction and endured what they were doing, and all of this before they were born in the flesh. Remember, patience requires time and 'endured' is past tense.

As far as swedenborg goes, I have no idea who that may be, nor do I care to look it up. I follow scripture, not what man thinks. Too many people put in their own ideas and it is usually for their own purposes. That of course means you are wise to question what I say, but please question it by reading the actual scriptures that I post and verifying whether the scriptures say what I claim. If so, don't consider it my words, but GOD'S WORDS. If you read the actual scriptures, you will see it is the scriptures that say it, not me. I just see it and then post it. I suggest you go in steps. First prove what Romans chapter 9 says about why GOD hated Esau. If you do not understand why GOD hated Esau (and other vessels fit for destruction), then you already have one problem that is impeding you from seeing the overall big picture of what the Bible teaches.

birdy
Mar 24th 2015, 10:37 AM
I'm just curious why these two verses are the only place in the Bible that reference the term 'without form, and void' unless they somehow relate to each other. I feel it is a time marker or reference point.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

I'm so glad someone else noticed this. And it is so correct of you to wonder what it is about. The answer, I think, has to do with errors in people's understanding of Genesis 1. The Bible is written in parable form (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4), and Genesis 1 does not appear to be an exception, despite the fact that many people read it and the rest of the Bible as a surface text. Jeremiah was talking about the same time period as Genesis 1. The Bible talks over and over again about a time when God is not giving his light (which is Christ) to those of the congregations (for lack of a better word). This is a time of spiritual darkness called the great tribulation in Luke 21. Starting at the beginning: Genesis 1:1 talks about a time called 'the beginning': "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." But what really is the beginning for eternal God? Rather, it is the time when God made the heaven and the earth. But what really is the heaven and the earth? The term heaven, the Bible tells us, is God's throne, not the upper stratosphere. Further, Jesus is in the midst of the throne, the Bible says. Jesus is in the midst of his people (the true believers) in the Bible as well. Further, the daystar (Jesus) arises in our hearts. The term heaven, then, seems to apply to those for whom God is on the throne, so to speak, in their hearts. Heaven is a a parable word, it seems, for Jesus and particularly for his people. The term 'earth' is God's footstool in the Bible, and is associated with the phrase 'what house will you build me?'. Further, the Bible says that the dry land is earth. This does not include oceans and could not mean planet earth, just dry land. Indeed, the 'land' which God intends to give his true believers appears to be a spiritual kingdom foremost. The land is dry, meaning it is in need of hearing the gospel. However, there is a time when there is a famine for hearing the word of God and that is the tribulation period. The land is dry in that sense. We find the word 'beginning' in the Bible in 1 Chron 17:9: "Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning," The term 'beginning' is said to be a time when the children of wickedness waste God's people. Such a time is the great tribulation. So, I see Genesis 1 as talking about that time. It is said in Genesis 1:2 to be a time when darkness is upon the face of the deep. The term deep in the Bible does not mean the deep ocean waters. Rather, 'deep' in the Bible is a word meaning judgement. Adam had a deep sleep from God, for instance, meaning a judgment death, which was a picture of the cross and the creation of his wife (a picture of the bride of Christ, the true believers). When God says let there be light in Genesis, he means let there be Christ. After the tribulation period, figurative Isaac is born, a picture of Christ being made available to the true believers. The tribulation period is birth pangs. God uses the time to create his people in that sense.

Boo
Mar 25th 2015, 08:30 AM
I think we are creating parables where God put history.

Many different tracks to understanding occur because of our active imaginations. Many sermons are given based on someone creating parallels to Scripture where none were written.

A great many people understand the Earth is old and that it was in existence, covered with water, and dark before God set it up again with the Garden of Eden. (Still, those people have to be the ones who don't buy into the current story given in Sunday School about Genesis somehow reporting that the Earth was created on Day 1.)

Does that effect our Lord and our beliefs about Jesus? I don't think so. If we know that God is eternal, then there would be a very huge time period for God prior to Adam and Eve. Whatever He did before that is known to God. It seems that He didn't see fit to actually tell us.

I trust that He will do all that we are told He will do. That works for me.

By the way, is it not rude to start a response to someone's serious conversation with LOL?