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clormond
Jun 30th 2015, 07:21 PM
Is the term "elect" in Matt the same people that are described in Daniel? Are these the Jews who come to Christ during the tribulation?


Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Thank you

Walls
Jun 30th 2015, 09:05 PM
Is the term "elect" in Matt the same people that are described in Daniel? Are these the Jews who come to Christ during the tribulation?


Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Thank you

It is a common misconception that the Jews will eventually turn to Christ in FAITH. But scripture says that the Jews will turn to Christ when they SEE Him (Matt.26:64; Mk.13:26, 14:62; Lk.21:27; Rev.1:7). It is FAITH that is necessary for rebirth and eternal life, and this the Jews cannot have because they reject Him until they see Him. The condition for God to restore combined Israel to their Land and to initiate the New Covenant with combined Israel (it has already been ratified in Christ's blood), is that a REMNANT of Israelites turn wholeheartedly back to the Law. Deuteronomy 28 outlines all the blessings and curses attached to the Law. Then, Deuteronomy 30:1-10 starts off with THE ASSUMPTION that Israel will suffer ALL the curses of the Law, ending with dispersion. This is a matter of history before our eyes. Verse 1 says;

"And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,"

Then from verse 2 the CONDITION for a restoration of the 12 Tribes (for they were they were assembled before Moses that day) is;

2 "And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul."

So, while you are correct that Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of ALL Jews in verse 4 above, they are gathered because a REMNANT RETURNED TO LAW, not Christ.

birdy
Jul 1st 2015, 10:39 AM
Is the term "elect" in Matt the same people that are described in Daniel? Are these the Jews who come to Christ during the tribulation?


Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Thank you

The term 'elect' just means all true believers, from all backgrounds, Jews and Gentiles. That is because God has elected anyone who is saved to salvation.

The verse about Michael is saying that Jesus will stand up for all true believers, again of all backgrounds, Jews and Gentiles. Daniel's people are the true believers, not just cultural Jews. The time of trouble is the time of great tribulation. Michael means "who is like God" and the reason Michael (Jesus) is the one who contends with Satan in Revelation is because Jesus is the one who takes on Satan in terms of salvation. Nobody else could. He overcomes Satan by his own blood, the blood of the Lamb, meaning he is the sinless Lamb who is qualified to take on Satan.

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 11:29 AM
How could this mean "all true believers, from all backgrounds, Jews and Gentiles" when he in Matt 23 is speaking about the Jews?


Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The disciples asked him right after this:

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Then we have an explanation, Is "all true believers, from all backgrounds, Jews and Gentiles" going to see this? why is it that he states that pray it not be on the Sabbath? It is my understanding that only the Jews Had not accepted Christ as the Messiah and that is why the Sabbath keeping would be a problem with their flight due to the restrictions of the Sabbath. Why not in the winter, Because winter is the rainy season and the travel would be difficult due to the terrain?

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

In this context of the "elect", it seems to be used regarding the nation, Daniel identifies this time as a “decreed for your people and your holy city,” indicating that Israel, not the church or mankind in general, will be the center of the Tribulation suffering. Not that the whole world will not be affected.

luigi
Jul 1st 2015, 12:18 PM
The elect from all over the world are the faithful in Christ that will include Jews who come to Christ after the GT.

luigi
Jul 1st 2015, 12:25 PM
How could this mean "all true believers, from all backgrounds, Jews and Gentiles" when he in Matt 23 is speaking about the Jews?


Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just because Jesus is speaking specifically about the Jews in Jerusalem in Matt 23:37, does not mean his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (the whole world) in Matt 24:31 represents His elect as only Jews from Jerusalem.

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 12:30 PM
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just because Jesus is speaking specifically about the Jews in Jerusalem in Matt 23:37, does not mean his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (the whole world) in Matt 24:31 represents His elect as only Jews from Jerusalem.

Then who is fleeing Judea when the AOD takes place? my post number four was not just one scripture, it was a complete thought with other supporting scriptures t make my point of thought

Should we not use the word "elect" in context? Daniel identifies this time as a “decreed for your people and your holy city,” indicating that Israel, not the church or mankind in general, will be the center of the Tribulation suffering. The use of the Sabbath, the Holy place, the Messiah, the nation that was what his view was, so would that not mean that the "elect definition be the same with the context in just a few verses later?

Where do you see the meaning of the "elect" changing definition in just a few verses without some transition?

Zach 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. was he referencing all belivers here?

dan
Jul 1st 2015, 12:57 PM
Is the term "elect" in Matt the same people that are described in Daniel? Are these the Jews who come to Christ during the tribulation?


Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Thank you

Now that's insightful!

The Jews are, because of their background in the OT, most likely to be unshakable in their faith and in their actions.

IMO, they are the ones most likely to be called "great" in Heaven:

MT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
MT 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
MT 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
MT 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 01:02 PM
Dan, I am trying to get my understanding of who are the "elect" because in my study it is a pivotal point to me in defining the rapture and its timing. Thank you

Walls
Jul 1st 2015, 02:02 PM
Dan, I am trying to get my understanding of who are the "elect" because in my study it is a pivotal point to me in defining the rapture and its timing. Thank you

You do well to sort this out. As you can see above, much confusion results because Bible students do not use "the Elect" correctly. But the correct understanding is relatively easy to get. Dial in "Elect" in your Bible search (conversely use a Strong's Concordance if you have one) and you come up with the fact that "the Elect" is dependent on context. And Matthew 24:1-31 is ALL about Jews, Sabbaths, Laws, Judea and Jerusalem. Added to this, the Abomination of Desolation does not apply to ALL people of the earth. It only applies to Daniel's People. In Daniel 9, up until verse 20, Daniel prays and confesses those in Captivity to be "THY (God's) people". But when God answers Daniel He refuses that the Jews are His people. His answer from verse 24 is always "THY (Daniel's) people". The reason for this is that God had disowned His people the Jews for their whoredoms. In Hosea 1:9 ... "Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God." In verse 10, only when Israel is restored and united will they again be His people.

Here are examples of the context telling who the elect are;
Jesus in Isaiah 42:1. "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."
Jesus in 1st Peter 2:6. "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."

Israel in Isaiah 45:4. "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."
Israel in Matthew 24:24. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
Israel in Matthew 24:31. "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Israel in Mark 13:27. "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Only Israel was dispersed to the four winds (Zech.2:6 etc.)

Christians in Romans 8:33. "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
Christians in Colossians 3:12. "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"

Angels in 1st Timothy 5:21. "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality."

luigi
Jul 1st 2015, 02:11 PM
Then who is fleeing Judea when the AOD takes place? my post number four was not just one scripture, it was a complete thought with other supporting scriptures t make my point of thought.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

While Matthew 24:16 at the onset of the GT does indeed specifically refer to those who are in Judea, that when they see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, that they should then head for the mountains (Matt 24:15); this does not, however, include Gods elect from the four winds (the whole earth) being gathered at the conclusion of the GT (Matt 24:33).


Should we not use the word "elect" in context? Daniel identifies this time as a “decreed for your people and your holy city,” indicating that Israel, not the church or mankind in general, will be the center of the Tribulation suffering.We should most certainly use the word "elect" in context. The scripture you are referring to is Daniel 9:24, where: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

While Daniel 9:24 refers to Daniels people (the faithful in Christ) and the holy city (Jerusalem); I do not see how you equate the few Jews who remain in Jerusalem and come to faith in Christ to represent Gods elect who are gathered from the four winds of heaven (the whole world) at the conclusion of the GT in Matthew 24:33!

Another scripture in line with Daniel 9:24, where the events of the seventieth week take place is:Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

As this scripture is in regards to the conclusion of the time, times and dividing of times/ a half, (Daniel 7:25 & 12:7), in which the saints are worn out by the little horn (the antichrist) during the GT; then Daniels people/the saints represent the faithful in Christ throughout the world, and not just Jerusalem.
The saints are Gods elect, whom God will have His angels gather from the four winds (the whole earth).

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 02:34 PM
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

While Matthew 24:16 at the onset of the GT does indeed specifically refer to those who are in Judea, that when they see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, that they should then head for the mountains (Matt 24:15); this does not, however, include Gods elect from the four winds (the whole earth) being gathered at the conclusion of the GT (Matt 24:33).

We should most certainly use the word "elect" in context. The scripture you are referring to is Daniel 9:24, where: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

While Daniel 9:24 refers to Daniels people (the faithful in Christ) and the holy city (Jerusalem); I do not see how you equate the few Jews who remain in Jerusalem and come to faith in Christ to represent Gods elect who are gathered from the four winds of heaven (the whole world) at the conclusion of the GT in Matthew 24:33!

Another scripture in line with Daniel 9:24, where the events of the seventieth week take place is:Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

As this scripture is in regards to the conclusion of the time, times and dividing of times/ a half, (Daniel 7:25 & 12:7), in which the saints are worn out by the little horn (the antichrist) during the GT; then Daniels people/the saints represent the faithful in Christ throughout the world, and not just Jerusalem.
The saints are Gods elect, whom God will have His angels gather from the four winds (the whole earth).

I am sorry but I feel as though I answered all your questions in post seven. I am still not seeing your answer or maybe I am just not understanding so ill be specific for me:

1- Daniel is speaking identifies this time as a “decreed for your people and your holy city,” indicating that Israel, not the church or mankind in general, will be the center of the Tribulation suffering. In Matt Jesus is speaking and he referances The use of the Sabbath, the Holy place, the Messiah, the nation that was what his view was, so would that not mean that the "elect definition be the same with the context in just a few verses later?
2- You quoted Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. You ref "elect" as all believers yet Zach 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. was he referencing all belivers here?

Without going into a rapture or second coming event, I want to focus only on who the "elect" are because if I can define that then I surely start to figure out the rapture, second coming and all the rest end time events

luigi
Jul 1st 2015, 03:45 PM
I am sorry but I feel as though I answered all your questions in post seven. I am still not seeing your answer or maybe I am just not understanding so ill be specific for me:

1- Daniel is speaking identifies this time as a “decreed for your people and your holy city,” indicating that Israel, not the church or mankind in general, will be the center of the Tribulation suffering. In Matt Jesus is speaking and he referances The use of the Sabbath, the Holy place, the Messiah, the nation that was what his view was, so would that not mean that the "elect definition be the same with the context in just a few verses later?
2- You quoted Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. You ref "elect" as all believers yet Zach 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. was he referencing all belivers here?

Without going into a rapture or second coming event, I want to focus only on who the "elect" are because if I can define that then I surely start to figure out the rapture, second coming and all the rest end time events
I am focusing on who the elect in Matt 24:33 represent.
I do this first by understanding there are correlations in scriptures.
Daniel 9:24 KJV "...determined for your people and upon thy holy city...", in which the seventieth week constitutes the GT, correlates with the worst of times in Daniel 12:1.

In Daniel 12:7 we see a description of a time, times, and a half at the end of which the GT concludes for the holy people.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Correlating with the time, times, and an half in Dan 12:7 is the time, times, and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25 in which the little horn shall wear out the saints.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

If we then acknowledge these times and events are the same; would the saints of the most High then represent Gods elect?

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 1st 2015, 03:55 PM
In this context of the "elect", it seems to be used regarding the nation, Daniel identifies this time as a “decreed for your people and your holy city,” indicating that Israel, not the church or mankind in general, will be the center of the Tribulation suffering. Not that the whole world will not be affected.

I agree that the Matthew 24 "elect" refer to the elect of Israel... who will be "gathered together" ('one by one' by angels sent to do that task) into one place upon the earth AFTER the tribulation period (as in Isaiah 27:12-13)... it is the same "elect" in both Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:22,24 (that is, the elect of Israel, of the tribulation period)... and I do believe this is the same "thy people" (Daniel's people) as the Daniel 12:1 passage (and "thy people" [Daniel's people; Israel] found in Daniel 9:24 also).

In the next chapter (starting in verse Matthew 25:31), it tells about "the Sheep" of the nations (who will enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom)... these are the saved of the Gentiles/nations who will still be living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth.



(neither of these are "the Church which is His body"... I have to add that just to be clear :) , as it is easy to read into what another is saying, without such clarification... so this is for the reader of this thread)

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 04:06 PM
I am focusing on who the elect in Matt 24:33 represent.
I do this first by understanding there are correlations in scriptures.
Daniel 9:24 KJV "...determined for your people and upon thy holy city...", in which the seventieth week constitutes the GT, correlates with the worst of times in Daniel 12:1.

In Daniel 12:7 we see a description of a time, times, and a half at the end of which the GT concludes for the holy people.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Correlating with the time, times, and an half in Dan 12:7 is the time, times, and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25 in which the little horn shall wear out the saints.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

If we then acknowledge these times and events are the same; would the saints of the most High then represent Gods elect?

In Matt Jesus is speaking and he referances The use of the Sabbath, the Holy place, the Messiah, the nation that was what his view was, so would that not mean that the "elect definition be the same with the context in just a few verses later?

The context usage of Matt supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. " Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom , the holy place , the Sabbath , and the Messiah indicate that Israel as a nation is his sole view.

Lets just go one at a time so I don't get confused, would you agree with this, or do you think Jesus was speaking about all believers in context?

You quoted Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. You ref "elect" as all believers yet Zach 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. was he referencing all belivers here?

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 04:20 PM
I agree that the Matthew 24 "elect" refer to the elect of Israel... who will be "gathered together" ('one by one' by angels sent to do that task) into one place upon the earth AFTER the tribulation period (as in Isaiah 27:12-13)... it is the same "elect" in both Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:22,24 (that is, the elect of Israel, of the tribulation period)... and I do believe this is the same "thy people" (Daniel's people) as the Daniel 12:1 passage (and "thy people" [Daniel's people; Israel] found in Daniel 9:24 also).

In the next chapter (starting in verse Matthew 25:31), it tells about "the Sheep" of the nations (who will enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom)... these are the saved of the Gentiles/nations who will still be living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth.



(neither of these are "the Church which is His body"... I have to add that just to be clear :) , as it is easy to read into what another is saying, without such clarification... so this is for the reader of this thread)

Yes it is easy and can get confusing, especially for me. Thank you for being straight forward and answering the specific question. I want to try and keep my thoughts in one direction and one step at a time. thank you

luigi
Jul 1st 2015, 04:47 PM
In Matt Jesus is speaking and he referances The use of the Sabbath, the Holy place, the Messiah, the nation that was what his view was, so would that not mean that the "elect definition be the same with the context in just a few verses later?

The context usage of Matt supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. " Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom , the holy place , the Sabbath , and the Messiah indicate that Israel as a nation is his sole view.

Lets just go one at a time so I don't get confused, would you agree with this, or do you think Jesus was speaking about all believers in context?


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

To answer your question with a question: When the GT comes to a close (Matt 24:29), and the world sees the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and glory (Matt 24:30), and He then gathers he elect from the four winds (Matt 24:31); would you then agree that with Matt 24:30 describing the whole world seeing the Lords return in which He then gathers his elect from the four winds in the following verse (Matt 24:31), that the context to His elect are throughout the world, and not just Jerusalem?


You quoted Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. You ref "elect" as all believers yet Zach 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. was he referencing all belivers here? Is God genetically partial and referencing pure blood Jews?
God is referencing all believers (who are true Jews in heart).

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 1st 2015, 05:01 PM
God is referencing all believers (who are true Jews in heart).

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Luigi, Romans 2:17-25 makes clear that the context there is "Jews who had faith" (not just any random dude who had faith. It is not addressing "Gentiles" in that passage [context]... of the verses you quote). This is where Replacement Theologians veer off.

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 05:34 PM
To answer your question with a question: When the GT comes to a close (Matt 24:29), and the world sees the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and glory (Matt 24:30), and He then gathers he elect from the four winds (Matt 24:31); would you then agree that with Matt 24:30 describing the whole world seeing the Lords return in which He then gathers his elect from the four winds in the following verse (Matt 24:31), that the context to His elect are throughout the world, and not just Jerusalem?

yes I answered that earlier with Zach 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. who is he referencing here? His Elect were scattered and he is bringing them back.


Is God genetically partial and referencing pure blood Jews?

No but it is a stretch to place people who are not mentioned against the context of what the lords words were. you ignore my question In Matt Jesus is speaking and he referances The use of the Sabbath, the Holy place, the Messiah, the nation that was what his view was, so would that not mean that the "elect definition be the same with the context in just a few verses later?

The context usage of Matt supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. " Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom , the holy place , the Sabbath , and the Messiah indicate that Israel as a nation is his sole view.


God is referencing all believers (who are true Jews in heart). There is no reference to anyone except the "elect" and you ignore the reference that I have already stated that keeps who the "elect" are in context


[B]Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

I am not ready to jump to the time of the gentiles and when this will be fulfilled, can we stay on the context of what Jesus was and who he was talking about?

Now could you give straight answers to my questions above with out spinning your answers into a question to me ? I am interested in them thank you

luigi
Jul 1st 2015, 05:43 PM
Luigi, Romans 2:17-25 makes clear that the context there is "Jews who had faith" (not just any random dude who had faith. It is not addressing "Gentiles" in that passage [context]... of the verses you quote). This is where Replacement Theologians veer off.

TheDivineWatermark, Romans 2:28 & 29 explains that it is not due to genetics who represents a Jew in heart, but that a Jew are those who have the law in their hearts.

Romans 2:17-25 explains that it is not those who have the written law, but do not have the law in their hearts, whose hearts are uncircucised.
Romans 2:26 explains those who have not the law (who are not physical Jews), but have the law written in their hearts, are the truly circumcised.
Romans 2:27 then explains how the individual who is not a physical Jew (the uncircumcission) who has not the written law, but has the law within their hearts, will then judge the Jew (the circumcission) who has the written law, but not in their hearts, and therefore are unable to comply with the law,

luigi
Jul 1st 2015, 06:23 PM
yes I answered that earlier with Zach 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. who is he referencing here? His Elect were scattered and he is bringing them back. I would say the individuals whom God has scattered and brings back represent the ten lost tribes of Israel who have been scattered and assimilated into all the worlds nations for almost the last three thousand years. While the majority of the elect from the four winds will consist of these individuals, the elect, however, will also consist of full blood Jews who come to believe in Christ after the GT; and as scriptures indicate a Jew is one who has the law in their heart, there will then also be saints (Gods elect) among tribes who have never interbred with any member of the ten tribes (Some Eskimos as one example).




No but it is a stretch to place people who are not mentioned against the context of what the lords words were. you ignore my question In Matt Jesus is speaking and he referances The use of the Sabbath, the Holy place, the Messiah, the nation that was what his view was, so would that not mean that the "elect definition be the same with the context in just a few verses later?

The context usage of Matt supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. " Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom , the holy place , the Sabbath , and the Messiah indicate that Israel as a nation is his sole view.I didn't want to get into this because the topic is long, but in End Times Chat, I and others have posted that we believe the Holy place (the temple) where the antichrist will stand to represent within the hearts of the faithful (where christ now stands), and therefore does not represent the Temple building located in Jerusalem.
The antichrist standing where he should not when the system of the beast is initiated where the whole world worships the beast, is in the hearts of the faithful throughout the world.


There is no reference to anyone except the "elect" and you ignore the reference that I have already stated that keeps who the "elect" are in contextOnce again, I can only post to you what Paul in Romans 2:28-29 constitutes a true Jew at heart, which would therefore represent one of the criteria necessary to be one of Gods elect. You can't have a faithless Jew, who has the written law, but not in his heart, represent Gods elect.




I am not ready to jump to the time of the gentiles and when this will be fulfilled, can we stay on the context of what Jesus was and who he was talking about?I am not sure what you are inferring by jumping to the time of the gentiles, but as some eschatologies teach these events are different, I will assume this is what you mean. I, however, believe there is only one body in Christ, and one set of events that at the end of which culminates with God bringing His elect from the four corners of the earth to the land of Israel, which will include full blood Jews, the assimilated ten tribes with the whole world, and those who have no blood whatsoever with any Judaic tribe.

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 06:29 PM
I agree that the Matthew 24 "elect" refer to the elect of Israel... who will be "gathered together" ('one by one' by angels sent to do that task) into one place upon the earth AFTER the tribulation period (as in Isaiah 27:12-13)... it is the same "elect" in both Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:22,24 (that is, the elect of Israel, of the tribulation period)... and I do believe this is the same "thy people" (Daniel's people) as the Daniel 12:1 passage (and "thy people" [Daniel's people; Israel] found in Daniel 9:24 also).

In the next chapter (starting in verse Matthew 25:31), it tells about "the Sheep" of the nations (who will enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom)... these are the saved of the Gentiles/nations who will still be living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth.



(neither of these are "the Church which is His body"... I have to add that just to be clear :) , as it is easy to read into what another is saying, without such clarification... so this is for the reader of this thread)
Yes I am going there next but I felt that knowing who the "elect" are is a key before I go any further because it seems to go pretty fast after verse 30 to me anyway. I feel that the Context in which Jesus was talking to the disciples isn't that hard to see,

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 06:31 PM
I would say the individuals whom God has scattered and brings back represent the ten lost tribes of Israel who have been scattered and assimilated into all the worlds nations for almost the last three thousand years. While the majority of the elect from the four winds will consist of these individuals, the elect, however, will also consist of full blood Jews who come to believe in Christ after the GT; and as scriptures indicate a Jew is one who has the law in their heart, there will then also be saints (Gods elect) among tribes who have never interbred with any member of the ten tribes (Some Eskimos as one example).



I didn't want to get into this because the topic is long, but in End Times Chat, I and others have posted that we believe the Holy place (the temple) where the antichrist will stand to represent within the hearts of the faithful (where christ now stands), and therefore does not represent the Temple building located in Jerusalem.
The antichrist standing where he should not when the system of the beast is initiated where the whole world worships the beast, is in the hearts of the faithful throughout the world.

Once again, I can only post to you what Paul in Romans 2:28-29 constitutes a true Jew at heart, which would therefore represent one of the criteria necessary to be one of Gods elect. You can't have a faithless Jew, who has the written law, but not in his heart, represent Gods elect.



I am not sure what you are inferring by jumping to the time of the gentiles, but as some eschatologies teach these events are different, I will assume this is what you mean. I, however, believe there is only one body in Christ, and one set of events that at the end of which culminates with God bringing His elect from the four corners of the earth to the land of Israel, which will include full blood Jews, the assimilated ten tribes with the whole world, and those who have no blood whatsoever with any Judaic tribe.

Thank you for your explanation but I think we will have to discuss this with Christ as to me he was referring to Jews who were told what to do when they see the AOD. I understand you are trying to show what Paul calls a Jew at heart, but I am asking who Christ was describing in his words, not Pauls

The context usage of Matt supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage to me anyway without adding anything to it or taking anything away from it. Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom, the holy place , the Sabbath , and the Messiah indicate that Israel as a nation is in view and I don't see where he was stating any one else. We can try to add to what he was stating, but if we take his words just as they are being told, then I don't see where we get anything other than what he said.

It seems as though Christ was citing Isaiah also, 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. this also seems that its the Jews that Christ is calling the "elect", so it seems as though I have come to an impass

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 1st 2015, 08:30 PM
It seems as though Christ was citing Isaiah also, 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. this also seems that its the Jews that Christ is calling the "elect", so [...]

Agreed... :thumbsup:

Appreciate the method of your study. :yes: (I apologize for the brief diversion)

clormond
Jul 1st 2015, 09:48 PM
I want to take this a step further but I do not want to get this moved to end times, how could I ask the question to a MOD to word it such a way as to keep it here in bible chat?

birdy
Jul 2nd 2015, 04:04 AM
A Jew is not outwardly (a cultural physical Jew) but one inwardly (a spiritual Jew). The same goes for Judea, Israel, Jerusalem, and such terms in the many passages everyone is quoting here about end times events. What these scriptures are depicting is the fall from grace of the congregations of the church age. Take for example, the one about fleeing Judea to go to the mountains: "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out" (Luke 21:21) You see, the true believers have been in the midst of the congregations throughout the church age; it is Jesus' frequent position (in the midst). However, he is saying that as the congregations fall away spiritually and are compassed by spiritual armies of wickedness or error, let the true believers flee to Christ alone (the mountains). Notice that Psalm 125:2 gives us a definition of mountains as meaning the Lord himself: "As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever." The Lord's people are not just cultural Jews. The Lord's people are everyone he has elected to salvation.

clormond
Jul 2nd 2015, 04:17 PM
A Jew is not outwardly (a cultural physical Jew) but one inwardly (a spiritual Jew). The same goes for Judea, Israel, Jerusalem, and such terms in the many passages everyone is quoting here about end times events. What these scriptures are depicting is the fall from grace of the congregations of the church age. Take for example, the one about fleeing Judea to go to the mountains: "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out" (Luke 21:21) You see, the true believers have been in the midst of the congregations throughout the church age; it is Jesus' frequent position (in the midst). However, he is saying that as the congregations fall away spiritually and are compassed by spiritual armies of wickedness or error, let the true believers flee to Christ alone (the mountains). Notice that Psalm 125:2 gives us a definition of mountains as meaning the Lord himself: "As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever." The Lord's people are not just cultural Jews. The Lord's people are everyone he has elected to salvation.

I cant agree based on Christ own words that I have quoted above. Luke it seems to be describing the events of 70 AD which has nothing to do with end time events. it already happened. He describes the destruction of the entire temple and the fleeing of the Jews. These are physical events. This thread was not about end times it was searching for "who are the elect". These scriptures are describing a events that Christ is telling his disciples who are asking a question. How is what Christ describing a spiritual event? We can put or spin and interpretation on it, but that will not change the physical events that will take place. I guess you would state the Prophesies of Christ when he states that the temple would be destroyed and the Jews scattered as a spiritual events also?

Matt 2415 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Who will see this? spiritual Jews? If Jesus is the mountain then why is he giving them directions to a place? and describing the journey?

Matthew 24:16- 20 states what must be done for the remnant. Jesus tells them where to go to the Judean Mountains. Is Jesus the JUDEAN MOUNTAIN?Jesus says to flee instantly. Do not even take a few minutes to collect a few personal belongings like your cloak in the field or a few items from your house for the journey. He warns that it will be difficult to navigate the mountainous terrain if pregnant or nursing a newborn. it will be a difficult journey. The difficulty will be compounded if this event occurs in winter or on a Sabbath, because of the added restrictions that these times pose.

clormond
Jul 2nd 2015, 09:20 PM
Agreed... :thumbsup:

Appreciate the method of your study. :yes: (I apologize for the brief diversion)
Thank you. and I thank you for your input

Noeb
Jul 3rd 2015, 12:57 AM
Is the term "elect" in Matt the same people that are described in Daniel? Are these the Jews who come to Christ during the tribulation?


Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Thank youThe phrase, "come to Christ" is for those that come to faith in Him before he appears for all to see. Appear doesn't mean come down to earth. He stays in the cloud/heaven/air for a time. I don't think Jews accept Messiah until He appears so they don't "come to Christ" as we would say. As for elect being Jews (springing from our conversation in the other thread and you asking me to comment here; here's my opinion) yes, but that doesn't exclude further revelation, that Gentiles are also elect. Jesus is talking to Jews about what's going to happen to Jews but He also told them in John 16:12 He had much more to tell them that they wouldn't understand and that the Spirit of truth would teach it later. So you're not going to be able to know who the elect are from Matthew.

Continuing with my opinion.....we know when Christ appears the Bride is caught up. There's One Appearing. His appearing is verse 30 and the rapture verse 31. That doesn't mean it's not also Israel gathered on earth. I haven't heard a reason both can't be happening in the one verse -all the elect on earth gathered. Again, this is not a post trib rapture view but a pre wrath rapture view. So that you can see the progression, the Bride is now gone from the earth (Mat 24) and the 144k Jewish virgins are sealed (Rev 7, 14). Then we have Matthew 25's wise and foolish virgins. The 144k would be part of the wise. According to wedding custom Jesus doesn't marry the virgins, he marries the Bride. The virgins are the Bride's companions -Psa 45:14-15. The Bride is not in chapter 25 because she's not on earth. I'll stop because I don't want to give you too much that doesn't pertain to the elect question.

Noeb
Jul 3rd 2015, 01:09 AM
Luigi, Romans 2:17-25 makes clear that the context there is "Jews who had faith" (not just any random dude who had faith. It is not addressing "Gentiles" in that passage [context]... of the verses you quote). This is where Replacement Theologians veer off.Actually he just said, what if there's a group of Gentiles that had faith and did the law? That's the context. Gentiles are also mentioned before this and after in verses 26 and 27

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

....but I see luigi has pointed this out already

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 5th 2015, 11:47 AM
In short, the elect are the Christians, not the ethnic Jews that supposedly get saved after a rapture the scripture fails to mention.

[If you look up the word 'elect,' you'll see that Peter, Paul and John all called the Christians the elect in nine different books! "Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure." (2 Pet. 1:10) The problem is obvious: If the "ELECT" are Jews...how do you make "SURE" you're born a Jew?]


One would have to read the entire chapter of Romans 11, in light of its context (chpts 9-11), but here is just one verse:

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11:28

(Romans 11:15 and 25 also refer to other passages of Scripture which pertain to "Israel" at a specific future time, which is not NOW true of them)


The passage in 2 Peter 1:10 you mentioned is talking about YOUR [plural] election [singular], not someone else's, (and means [speaking of believers], to *"give diligence" to understand it aright [per verses 3-4 (for who/when/what)], rather than to understand it according to someone else's, namely "Israel's" [many in the churches like to usurp Israel's election]).


*"give diligence [G4704]" as also used in 2 Timothy 2:15(nasb, nkjv)

Noeb
Jul 5th 2015, 03:46 PM
If you look closely at this passage, you'll see they are forced to attempt this, because the verse states in a point blank way that this gathering of his elect occurs after the tribulation.No it does not. It point blank says,
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
not after the tribulation. It continues,

"shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

....which is the sixth seal in Rev 6, which is definitely, without a doubt, NOT after "The Tribulation" because the tribulation continues into the day of the Lord.



In short, because they want to believe in the raptureWell, this passage is not 'the rapture' passage, 1Th 4:14-18 is, and since we know the rapture is when he appears in clouds/heaven/air, we know all these passages go together as one event, which is not after the tribulation because there's much left to do -the day of the Lord is a period of time.



In short, the elect are the Christians, not the ethnic Jews that supposedly get saved after a rapture the scripture fails to mention.1Th 4:14-18 and those that go perfectly with it are undeniable, unless you want to put yourself "in the position of seeking to redefine another key element of theology in order to defend" your "preconceived view".

Noeb
Jul 5th 2015, 10:22 PM
Same diff.No it's not. "After the tribulation" and "after tribulation of those days" which are specifically described are two entirely different things.



(We’re not going to create something out of thin air here, as others do, by assuming it’s the so-called ”Great Tribulation.”)I didn't do that did I? If you are going to address my posts, do so, but don't bother regurgitating the pablum of others.



In fact, “the tribulation” continues TO THIS DAYI don't have time for amil



Now we’re getting closer to the root of the problem, the grand deception, the snare that has been set here, for the undiscerning.That sidestep false doctrine is laughable. Might as well believe in two seed doctrine and other silly nonsense.



When a person imprisoned in the Rapture Cult hears someone does not believe in the ”rapture,” what he (or she) thinks he hears is someone saying they don’t believe the Lord is coming back at all.Like I said, address what I say not what others say. Don't quote me, then blab on about others.



This aspect of my reply is related to the assumption factor. It is the assumption of the existence of the so-called “rapture” that is part of the problem. Indeed, if someone says they believe in the “post-tribulation rapture,” they are still putting forth the existence of the “rapture,” in that they are characterizing the legitimacy of the term, even in a post-trib context.I disagree. A post trib rapture isn't one at all.



This point merits repetition as it’s crucial. If you set out to study the “rapture” in the Scriptures (or even in an interaction with another believer), you have already forfeited a completely accurate result, for you’ve projected the existence of something that does not exist,Funny.....I gave you the passage. Is it not in your bible?



In fact, for many years, I’ve strongly encouraged believers to study the resurrection of the believer, as it is a concept that is categorically enunciated in Scripture; and when a student of Scripture fully understands the resurrection, they will have learned there is no way for the “rapture” doctrine to be valid.good luck with that



“undeniable” of what? Is that the spot where you seek to insert your pet doctrine i.e. “pre-trib rapture theory”?I don't believe in a pre trib rapture. If you had read my posts you would have known that. At least, that would have been the courteous thing to do, before making all these assumptions and wasting my time.



To restate, if you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.Been there done that.......there is a rapture.



If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second comingThat's what I've said, and I'm neither pre, mid, or post, but you wouldn't know that, would you?



-- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation.Again.....I haven't said that and don't know why you are saying this to me.



The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.You keep saying this, but saying this teaches nothing. Just makes everyone go.... :dunno: ....what are they talking about?



In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)OK? What do you think you have said here that everyone doesn't already know?



IOW, the tragic and continuing problem here is that you don't know what your (the born again believer's) standing in Christ is.Excuse me? Where'd this come from? If you're not amil and decide to address what I've said and explain what you're trying to say, let us know :)

birdy
Jul 6th 2015, 05:03 AM
I guess you would state the Prophesies of Christ when he states that the temple would be destroyed and the Jews scattered as a spiritual events also?

Yes I do, but spiritual events pertaining to the congregations of the church age. The congregations have been places where Christ has been preached and the voice of the bridegroom (Christ) has been heard unto salvation there during the church age, because the Holy Spirit has been at work. However, towards the end of the church age, the cry against these places grows because of their disobedience. Jesus points to the fact that the stones of the temple will all be all thrown down. However, people are stones in the Bible. Jesus is the stone the builders rejected, and true believers are lively stones, and Babylon (the fallen congregations of the church age) are a millstone that is cast into the sea. He is letting us know that the congregations of the church age will experience a time of great tribulation.


Matt 2415 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Who will see this? spiritual Jews? If Jesus is the mountain then why is he giving them directions to a place? and describing the journey?

The holy place is the congregations of the church age who no longer have the holy spirit but instead are lead by a spirit that is abomination, and therefore the place becomes desolate in the sense that Christ is not there anymore. Just as we did not see Christ physically for most of the church age in these congregations but he was present spiritually in the people, so we will not see some single cunning physcial dude in the congregations called the abomination or called the antichrist. Rather, the spirit that leads there will be outwardly Christian but inwardly of the wrong spirit. That is why the terminology of standing is used. When true believers stand in the Bible, it is the Bible's way of saying they are standing spiritually in salvation. Similarly, when Satan has sway, he is said to stand, meaning he holds spiritual sway there.



Matthew 24:16- 20 states what must be done for the remnant. Jesus tells them where to go to the Judean Mountains. Is Jesus the JUDEAN MOUNTAIN?Jesus says to flee instantly. Do not even take a few minutes to collect a few personal belongings like your cloak in the field or a few items from your house for the journey. He warns that it will be difficult to navigate the mountainous terrain if pregnant or nursing a newborn. it will be a difficult journey. The difficulty will be compounded if this event occurs in winter or on a Sabbath, because of the added restrictions that these times pose.

Yes the Bible is calling Jesus the mountains. Do you think in Psalm 121 the Bible is saying that our help comes from the physical hills. No, the Psalm goes on to say our help comes from the Lord. It defines what the mountains are a picture of. Mountains are used as a parable word for providing the picture. Do you think Jesus is a physical lion as well? Or a physical loaf of bread?

The congregations have been raising spiritual children throughout the church age, nursing them with the sincere milk of the gospel. But woe comes on those who are with spiritual child (the congregations), during the tribulation period. It is not saying that there will be a bunch of nursing mothers who flee physically. Rather, it is saying that those who have been raising spiritual children will have woe. Spiritual judgment comes to the congregations. The terms winter and sabbath are parable words meaning the time of great tribulation. It is also called the day of the Lord or the hour of tribulation, but that does not mean it is 24 hours of great tribulation or 60 minutes of great tribulation.

People have gotten off onto this idea that there will be a resurgence of cultural Jews that all turn to Christ suddenly. But this is based on a reading of Romans 11 that does not define the word 'so' correctly. Romans 11:26 says : "And so all Israel shall be saved:" The word 'so' means 'in this manner'. Many would-be theologians think that the word 'so' means 'then'. That would read : 'And then all Israel will be saved'. Too bad that the word 'so' means only 'in this manner'. But what manner is that? The verse explains that the Deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion (heaven) and all Israel (the true believers both Jews and Gentiles) will be saved. The chapter has been explaining that part of the Gentiles are saved and part of the cultural Jews are saved as well, all by faith in Christ. The remnant simply means those who are saved by grace of all backgrounds, Jews and Gentiles.

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 6th 2015, 05:48 AM
Birdy said:

People have gotten off onto this idea that there will be a resurgence of cultural Jews that all turn to Christ suddenly. But this is based on a reading of Romans 11 that does not define the word 'so' correctly. Romans 11:26 says : "And so all Israel shall be saved:" The word 'so' means 'in this manner'. Many would-be theologians think that the word 'so' means 'then'. That would read : 'And then all Israel will be saved'. Too bad that the word 'so' means only 'in this manner'. But what manner is that? The verse explains that the Deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion (heaven) and all Israel (the true believers both Jews and Gentiles) will be saved. The chapter has been explaining that part of the Gentiles are saved and part of the cultural Jews are saved as well, all by faith in Christ. The remnant simply means those who are saved by grace of all backgrounds, Jews and Gentiles.

My understanding hasn't been influenced by the definition of 'so'... but by the fact that every usage of the word "Israel" in the NT (some 73 times) always means "Israel"

birdy
Jul 6th 2015, 06:31 AM
My understanding hasn't been influenced by the definition of 'so'... but by the fact that every usage of the word "Israel" in the NT (some 73 times) always means "Israel"

Yes, we have a difference there. I see many of the verses in the New Testament using the word 'Israel' as being the parable meaning of spiritual Israel, that is, all true believers. For example:"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." I take this as meaning that true believers of the church age are to go to the various congregations with the gospel and when they are persecuted to go on to the next right up until the coming of Christ. Those who read the Bible as a surface text will not be seeing this the same way, but I see the Bible as being written in parable form: "all these things are done in parables" (Mark 4) and "But without a parable spake he not unto them" (Mark 4) and "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable" (Psalm 78)

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 6th 2015, 06:55 AM
Yes, we have a difference there. I see many of the verses in the New Testament using the word 'Israel' as being the parable meaning of spiritual Israel, that is, all true believers. For example:"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." I take this as meaning that true believers of the church age are to go to the various congregations with the gospel and when they are persecuted to go on to the next right up until the coming of Christ. Those who read the Bible as a surface text will not be seeing this the same way, but I see the Bible as being written in parable form: "all these things are done in parables" (Mark 4) and "But without a parable spake he not unto them" (Mark 4) and "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable" (Psalm 78)

Yes, I do believe we have a difference here that will likely remain, brother. Speaking of Jesus' parables, I believe most of them, if not all, reference "Israel" (in some way, shape, or form).

"The Church which is His body" can and SHOULD indeed learn from them, but is not its primary application. We have been granted access to the full-knowledge (not that each of us [or any one of us] have attained all), and the mind of the risen and glorified Christ, and that not in "parable" form... though one might call it "of the Spirit" (that is, "spiritually discerned"... not exactly the same as "spiritualizing" [where one imputes meaning, or any number of meanings, that sound good]).



In other words, take Israel's entrance into Canaan, for example... I believe that pre-figures Israel's future kingdom age [their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom following His Second Coming to the earth]... but we, the Church which is His body, also experience a similar thing in our earth-bound spiritual walk in the here and now. But if one limits the application as "spiritual" only (and pertaining to US [alone]), one will miss the actual [that is, future and literal] application that is not to be missed (by way of understanding).

birdy
Jul 6th 2015, 07:52 AM
In other words, take Israel's entrance into Canaan, for example... I believe that pre-figures Israel's future kingdom age [their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom following His Second Coming to the earth]... but we, the Church which is His body, also experience a similar thing in our earth-bound spiritual walk in the here and now. But if one limits the application as "spiritual" only (and pertaining to US [alone]), one will miss the actual [that is, future and literal] application that is not to be missed (by way of understanding).

Ah, I see. So you are a believer in the idea of a future Jewish thousand year reign with Christ as the king on earth and so forth. Yes, I see that differently as well. Rev 20 records: "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." I see the thousand years in which Satan cannot deceive as being parable language for the church age. Satan cannot stop people from believing in Christ unto salvation during this time, so he (Satan) is bound by the free move of the Holy Spirit which gives people belief unto salvation. That is the seal placed upon him. However, after the thousand figurative years is over, he is loosed to deceive in the congregations during the great tribulation period, also called the little season here in Rev 20 so that belief is withdrawn. At that time, the one who restrains sin (the Holy Spirit) is withdrawn from the congregations (2 Thes 2:7) and the voice of Jesus (the bridegroom) is not heard there anymore, because the congregations are fallen.

Walls
Jul 6th 2015, 08:50 AM
Ah, I see. So you are a believer in the idea of a future Jewish thousand year reign with Christ as the king on earth and so forth. Yes, I see that differently as well. Rev 20 records: "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." I see the thousand years in which Satan cannot deceive as being parable language for the church age. Satan cannot stop people from believing in Christ unto salvation during this time, so he (Satan) is bound by the free move of the Holy Spirit which gives people belief unto salvation. That is the seal placed upon him. However, after the thousand figurative years is over, he is loosed to deceive in the congregations during the great tribulation period, also called the little season here in Rev 20 so that belief is withdrawn. At that time, the one who restrains sin (the Holy Spirit) is withdrawn from the congregations (2 Thes 2:7) and the voice of Jesus (the bridegroom) is not heard there anymore, because the congregations are fallen.

But birdy, how can Satan be bound in the Church age when scripture says, some 34 years after our Lord ascended to the Father's throne in heaven, that we must; "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" (1st Peter 5:8). By all means of grammar this is TOTAL freedom.

And then scripture goes on to say that Satan's bondage is so that he does not deceive THE NATIONS (Rev.20:3) - not the Church.

birdy
Jul 6th 2015, 09:38 AM
But birdy, how can Satan be bound in the Church age when scripture says, some 34 years after our Lord ascended to the Father's throne in heaven, that we must; "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" (1st Peter 5:8). By all means of grammar this is TOTAL freedom.

And then scripture goes on to say that Satan's bondage is so that he does not deceive THE NATIONS (Rev.20:3) - not the Church.

Thanks for asking. The Bible says that whatsoever the believers bind on earth during the church age will be bound in heaven. In other words, during the church age Satan is bound by the believers who have the Holy Spirit. Satan is still free to deceive the unbelievers and still at work there but he cannot stop people who are elected to salvation from being saved. The term 'the nations' is a parable term for the believers, as Abraham is a father of many nations (in other words of the true believers) not of everybody on planet earth. It is easy to see in Rev 20 that the thousand years period is before Satan is loosed for a little season. Surely, Satan is loosed during the time of great tribulation, and the period before that is the church age.

clormond
Jul 6th 2015, 10:26 PM
Jesus is talking to Jews about what's going to happen to Jews but He also told them in John 16:12 He had much more to tell them that they wouldn't understand and that the Spirit of truth would teach it later. So you're not going to be able to know who the elect are from Matthew.

Him not telling all, Could that be because the rejection of him had not been complete and they would have a hard time understanding the Gentile event from Paul in the future? So he was speaking to them about what they could comprehend, without going to far in the future past there understanding?

Noeb
Jul 6th 2015, 11:50 PM
Yes. The nt church started out as an infant.

CFJ
Jul 7th 2015, 10:09 AM
Thanks for asking. The Bible says that whatsoever the believers bind on earth during the church age will be bound in heaven. In other words, during the church age Satan is bound by the believers who have the Holy Spirit. Satan is still free to deceive the unbelievers and still at work there but he cannot stop people who are elected to salvation from being saved. The term 'the nations' is a parable term for the believers, as Abraham is a father of many nations (in other words of the true believers) not of everybody on planet earth. It is easy to see in Rev 20 that the thousand years period is before Satan is loosed for a little season. Surely, Satan is loosed during the time of great tribulation, and the period before that is the church age.

Nice post birdy....

Walls
Jul 7th 2015, 01:13 PM
Thanks for asking. The Bible says that whatsoever the believers bind on earth during the church age will be bound in heaven. In other words, during the church age Satan is bound by the believers who have the Holy Spirit.

But scripture pointedly says that Satan is bound by an angel FROM HEAVEN, not a believer from earth (Rev.20:1-2)



Satan is still free to deceive the unbelievers and still at work there but he cannot stop people who are elected to salvation from being saved. The term 'the nations' is a parable term for the believers, as Abraham is a father of many nations (in other words of the true believers) not of everybody on planet earth.

I will insert your meaning of "nations" then for "believers" then and see where your doctrine leads us. If so then the believers;

shall hate ALL believers. Matthew 24:9 says; "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all believers for my name's sake."
shall seek after ALL the things of the world. Luke 12:30 says; "For all these things do the believers of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things."
shall ALL need to have the gospel preached to them even though they have heard and already believed. Luke 24:47 says; "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all believers, beginning at Jerusalem."
shall ALL drink together and fornicate with Babylon. Revelation 18:3 says; "For all believers have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."
shall ALL be deceived by Babylon. Revelation 18:23 says; "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all believers deceived."
shall be smitten in wrath by Christ's sharp sword, not saved. Revelation 19:15 says; "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the believers: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
shall be deceived when Satan is released from his subterranean prison and chains. Revelation 20:8 says; "And shall go out to deceive the believers which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." Naturally, the next verse would prove even more devastating for the believers would go up against Jerusalem (v.9)



It is easy to see in Rev 20 that the thousand years period is before Satan is loosed for a little season. Surely, Satan is loosed during the time of great tribulation, and the period before that is the church age.

But the Church age ends when our Lord Jesus COMES (Matt.24:3, 30). And the resurrection only takes place THEN (1st Cor.15:23).

Noeb
Jul 7th 2015, 03:01 PM
2Tim 2.12 also has reigning with him future, not now.

Walls
Jul 7th 2015, 03:20 PM
2Tim 2.12 also has reigning with him future, not now.

Well said. So also all the parables of the Kingdom. The rewards and reigning is after the Master returns and at the end of the age (Matt.13:40-43, 25:1, 6, 14, 19 etc.). Paul only receives his crown at a date later than his death and "at THAT day" and our Lord's "appearing" (2nd Tim.4:8).

CFJ
Jul 8th 2015, 07:59 AM
But scripture pointedly says that Satan is bound by an angel FROM HEAVEN, not a believer from earth (Rev.20:1-2)


2Tim 2.12 also has reigning with him future, not now.

Hi Walls/Noeb,

So the following should be a future event, if I'm understanding you correctly?

"The person who hears you hears me, and the person who rejects you rejects me. The person who rejects me rejects the one who sent me." The 70 disciples came back very happy. They said, "Lord, even demons obey us when we use the power and authority of your name!" Jesus said to them, "I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
(Luk 10:16-18)

ForHisglory
Jul 8th 2015, 08:35 AM
Is the term "elect" in Matt the same people that are described in Daniel? Are these the Jews who come to Christ during the tribulation?
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Thank you
Which Jews come to Christ DURING the Tribulation? And by Tribulation do you mean Great Tribulation, or simply tribulation, whilst in the time of the Gentiles?
Further which is the larger grouping "elect" or "Jews" or are they two separate sets which overlap?
You see we do have scripture speaking of the Jews returning, being gathered out of the nations - yet this is AFTER Jesus returns.
We also have scripture saying that He gathers those who are IN Him AT His return (they are caught up to Him).
So the question you seem to be asking is whether the gathering of the elect in Matt 24:31 is the catching up AT His return, or the gathering out of the nations AFTER His return.
Well where are the Jews who were in Jerusalem at the START of the Great Tribulation?
They are either dead or in the wilderness being nourished by God AT His return. So they are NOT the ones being gathered out of the Nations in Matt 24:31, because they are ALREADY gathered.
So your critical position that the END of the Great Tribulation seems solely for the Jews is incorrect. The START is for those who are in Jerusalem and Judea, which would be predominantly Jews (but not only Jews, but other God-fearing people, and others). The END though is NOT speaking of those who WERE in Jerusalem at the START because they are in the wilderness with God.
So then we find that the "elect" spoken of in Matt 24:31 is speaking of those who are spread from one end of heaven to another, which therefore MUST be a different group of people, to those who were in Jerusalem (these weren't), and so we find seems to be speaking of any who are IN Him.
IOW Matt 24:31 is NOT speaking of Jews scattered around the world, but of the believers who are around the world. This we can determine from this phrase:
Mat 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
No human being would be saved is directly connected to the elect. So we find the "elect" are those who are saved.

I hope my reasoning is clear enough for you. To summarise another way, the Great Tribulation starts at Jerusalem, but spreads into the whole earth, and so the reverse happens that Jesus comes to Jerusalem and brings those from the whole earth who are elect. It does NOT reference the start but the end situation when speaking of the elect - and those Jews who were in Jerusalem at the start but who did respond to the words of the two witnesses and did flee, they are in the wilderness with God and NOT scattered to the four winds, so will be part of this group, but are not the entirety of this group.

Walls
Jul 8th 2015, 08:38 AM
Hi Walls/Noeb,

So the following should be a future event, if I'm understanding you correctly?

"The person who hears you hears me, and the person who rejects you rejects me. The person who rejects me rejects the one who sent me." The 70 disciples came back very happy. They said, "Lord, even demons obey us when we use the power and authority of your name!" Jesus said to them, "I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
(Luk 10:16-18)

You have a point. The grammar is past tense. So we only have two options;

Satan was already cast from heaven at some past point in time, or
Our Lord Jesus was speaking from His position as Son of God to Whom is, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Act.15:18)

It is the same as our Lord Jesus Christ saying in John 8:58; "... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

I judge the meaning of Luke 10:18 to be (paraphrased); "You disciples who have seen the power of God by casting out demons, do not think this so great. I have seen (into the future in my capacity as Son of God) the TOP ANGEL cast from heaven."

AGAIN, we know from Revelation Chapter 12 that Satan being cast from heaven WAS NOT THE WORK OF CHRISTIANS, BUT MICHAEL - AN ANGEL. Furthermore, it is given to Christians to "judge" angels ONLY IN THE FUTURE when they judge the world (1st Cor.6:1-3). Until now, Christians, like Christ was, are "MADE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS" (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9), and do not even dare to accuse an angel (Jude 1:8-11). If Michael may not demean Lucifer, how shall a mere fallen man cast him down from heaven and then bind him and cast him down into a subterranean abyss?

CFJ
Jul 8th 2015, 09:31 AM
Hi Walls,

Don't you think the 2nd option you posed is reading something into the text?


1. Did the disciples testify something that happened already or something that could happen in future?

2. The fact that Satan have fall, is that the reason for them casting out demons?

One need to consider that if one can bind demons, you must be able top bind their father too..., it is impossible to have authority over demons only, but not their leader too!


Jesus called his twelve disciples and gave them authority to force evil spirits out of people and to cure every disease and sickness.
(Mat 10:1)

I believe that Mat 10:1 is a good cross reference for what we read here...


The 70 disciples came back very happy. They said, "Lord, even demons obey us when we use the power and authority of your name!" Jesus said to them, "I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
(Luk 10:17-18)

The demons obey them, because they have authority over Satan...!!


The one who loves us gives us an overwhelming victory in all these difficulties. I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love which Christ Jesus our Lord shows us. We can't be separated by death or life, by angels or rulers, by anything in the present or anything in the future, by forces or powers in the world above or in the world below, or by anything else in creation.
(Rom 8:37-39)

In the above passage we read, "(1) We can't be separated by death or life, (2) by angels or rulers, (3) by anything in the present or anything in the future, (4) by forces or powers in the world above or in the world below, (5) or by anything else in creation."

This is only possible, because we have bounding authority over Satan...

birdy
Jul 8th 2015, 09:59 AM
Quote Originally Posted by birdy View Post
Thanks for asking. The Bible says that whatsoever the believers bind on earth during the church age will be bound in heaven. In other words, during the church age Satan is bound by the believers who have the Holy Spirit.

But scripture pointedly says that Satan is bound by an angel FROM HEAVEN, not a believer from earth (Rev.20:1-2)

Thanks for mentioning that. The angel is Christ, who alone has the power to chain Satan, having defeated him at the cross: "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand." The word 'angel' means messenger, and the verse is saying that a messenger comes down from heaven, Christ. Genesis 48:16 shows how the angel is Christ as well: "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;" It is Christ who redeems and who blesses with salvation.


Satan is still free to deceive the unbelievers and still at work there but he cannot stop people who are elected to salvation from being saved. The term 'the nations' is a parable term for the believers, as Abraham is a father of many nations (in other words of the true believers) not of everybody on planet earth.



I will insert your meaning of "nations" then for "believers" then and see where your doctrine leads us. If so then the believers;
shall hate ALL believers. Matthew 24:9 says; "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all believers for my name's sake."
shall seek after ALL the things of the world. Luke 12:30 says; "For all these things do the believers of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things."
shall ALL need to have the gospel preached to them even though they have heard and already believed. Luke 24:47 says; "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all believers, beginning at Jerusalem."
shall ALL drink together and fornicate with Babylon. Revelation 18:3 says; "For all believers have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."
shall ALL be deceived by Babylon. Revelation 18:23 says; "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all believers deceived."
shall be smitten in wrath by Christ's sharp sword, not saved. Revelation 19:15 says; "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the believers: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
shall be deceived when Satan is released from his subterranean prison and chains. Revelation 20:8 says; "And shall go out to deceive the believers which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." Naturally, the next verse would prove even more devastating for the believers would go up against Jerusalem (v.9)

Thanks for mentioning this as well. The nations are divided into sheep and goats; the saved and the unsaved: "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:" (Matthew 25:32) This is the Jerusalem above and the Jerusalem below, pertaining to those associated with God. It is still not everyone on planet earth, but only those who are identified with God. We read in the Bible about those saved by grace, the nations, and those under the law, also the nations: "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." When we are talking about those who are saved, we are talking about Abraham's nations: "Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?"

CFJ
Jul 8th 2015, 10:15 AM
This is only possible, because we have bounding authority over Satan...

Only believers possess this authority...


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(Joh 1:12)

It is the Spirit of God in us, ensuring us this authority...


And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
(Gal 4:6)

Walls
Jul 8th 2015, 01:46 PM
Hi Walls,

Don't you think the 2nd option you posed is reading something into the text?

1. Did the disciples testify something that happened already or something that could happen in future?


If we read the verse precisely, then the disciples had (past tense) cast out demons, and our Lord had seen (past tense) Satan fall from heaven. The grammar in no way indicates that the disciples either cast Satan out or saw Satan fall from heaven. Luke 10:17-18 reads;

17 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

The reason why I came to my conclusion in my paraphrase is that the Lord goes on to play down the casting out of demons in verse 20. It reads;

"Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

So, within the context, our Lord Jesus is actually playing down the power to cast out demons. He uses the much greater event of Satan being cast out of heaven to show His disciples that there are greater events planned than merely casting out demons. And He alludes to another teaching He gave to His disciples. In the so-called "Sermon on the Mount" - Matthew 5, 6 and 7, He taught His disciples (Matt.5:2) that the casting out of demons could be a "work of iniquity" (Matt.7:22-23) and distract the Christian from the Kingdom of Heaven. He does not deny the casting out of demons by Christians, but the rejoicing of a Christian is really when the Kingdom of Heaven comes (Matt.6:10) and they are in it, that is, when the Kingdom of Heaven comes to earth, their names are written there.


2. The fact that Satan have fall, is that the reason for them casting out demons?

One need to consider that if one can bind demons, you must be able top bind their father too..., it is impossible to have authority over demons only, but not their leader too!


Jesus called his twelve disciples and gave them authority to force evil spirits out of people and to cure every disease and sickness.
(Mat 10:1)

I believe that Mat 10:1 is a good cross reference for what we read here...


The 70 disciples came back very happy. They said, "Lord, even demons obey us when we use the power and authority of your name!" Jesus said to them, "I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
(Luk 10:17-18)

The demons obey them, because they have authority over Satan...!!


The one who loves us gives us an overwhelming victory in all these difficulties. I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love which Christ Jesus our Lord shows us. We can't be separated by death or life, by angels or rulers, by anything in the present or anything in the future, by forces or powers in the world above or in the world below, or by anything else in creation.
(Rom 8:37-39)

In the above passage we read, "(1) We can't be separated by death or life, (2) by angels or rulers, (3) by anything in the present or anything in the future, (4) by forces or powers in the world above or in the world below, (5) or by anything else in creation."

This is only possible, because we have bounding authority over Satan...

Luke 10 and Matthew 10 in no way show a Christian having authority over Satan. Nor any other scripture for that matter. The only thing at a Christians disposal is to "RESIST" Satan and he (Satan) will be obliged to flee (Jas.4:7). Even our Lord Jesus, when tempted as a Man, resisted Satan but it says in Luke 4:13; "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." In no way was Satan bound or hindered. He was simply forced to "depart" until the next occasion.

There is something that you have alluded to but not said outright, so I only say this in passing. Satan is called "the Devil" in the English versions of the Bible. The word "Devil", "diabolos" in the Greek, means "accuser". The word "devils" (plural) is correctly rendered "DEMONS" and is "daimonizomai" in the Greek. The Devil, Satan, is an angel. An angel cannot possess a man and dwell in him. Angels live either in heaven or in Tarteroo, a prison (2nd Pet.2:4). A demon is a disembodied spirit seeking a body to dwell in, and if he can't, then he would like to dwell in an animal. Their designated dwelling is the sea (Matt.8:30-32). The Devil, Satan, is "Prince" over demons, not their "Father". He is "Prince" over demons because he is "Prince of this world" and thus Prince over a certain domain and system of which the demons form part. Thus he commands them.

While Christians can, if empowered for the occasion, cast out a demon (Mk.16:17), he/she cannot cast out Satan. They can only RESIST him. And far from casting him out, in the end, Christians will be DEFEATED by Satan via the Beast (Dan.7:21; Rev.13:7).

Noeb
Jul 8th 2015, 02:42 PM
Hi Walls/Noeb,

So the following should be a future event, if I'm understanding you correctly?

"The person who hears you hears me, and the person who rejects you rejects me. The person who rejects me rejects the one who sent me." The 70 disciples came back very happy. They said, "Lord, even demons obey us when we use the power and authority of your name!" Jesus said to them, "I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
(Luk 10:16-18)
No that was in the present. They were with him, but then he went away. Plus it didn't compare to the glory to come. There remains a future reign with him.

Noeb
Jul 8th 2015, 03:53 PM
Hi Walls/Noeb,

So the following should be a future event, if I'm understanding you correctly?

"The person who hears you hears me, and the person who rejects you rejects me. The person who rejects me rejects the one who sent me." The 70 disciples came back very happy. They said, "Lord, even demons obey us when we use the power and authority of your name!" Jesus said to them, "I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
(Luk 10:16-18)
Oh, and I really can't imagine why you follow up Rev 20 with this verse anyway. How is casting out demons/satan defeated in spirit momentarily, even remotely similar to being bound for a much longer period of time?

percho
Jul 8th 2015, 05:32 PM
You have a point. The grammar is past tense. So we only have two options;

Satan was already cast from heaven at some past point in time, or
Our Lord Jesus was speaking from His position as Son of God to Whom is, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Act.15:18)

It is the same as our Lord Jesus Christ saying in John 8:58; "... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

I judge the meaning of Luke 10:18 to be (paraphrased); "You disciples who have seen the power of God by casting out demons, do not think this so great. I have seen (into the future in my capacity as Son of God) the TOP ANGEL cast from heaven."

AGAIN, we know from Revelation Chapter 12 that Satan being cast from heaven WAS NOT THE WORK OF CHRISTIANS, BUT MICHAEL - AN ANGEL. Furthermore, it is given to Christians to "judge" angels ONLY IN THE FUTURE when they judge the world (1st Cor.6:1-3). Until now, Christians, like Christ was, are "MADE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS" (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9), and do not even dare to accuse an angel (Jude 1:8-11). If Michael may not demean Lucifer, how shall a mere fallen man cast him down from heaven and then bind him and cast him down into a subterranean abyss?

I think Satan was cast from heaven sometime after Gen 1:1 and before Gen 1:2 and will again attempt to ascend to the throne in heaven and will again be cast out.

CFJ
Jul 9th 2015, 01:12 PM
No that was in the present. They were with him, but then he went away. Plus it didn't compare to the glory to come. There remains a future reign with him.

What is the meaning of the cross for you Noeb? Did Christ not through the cross ensure Satan's fall?

He did this by erasing the charges that were brought against us by the written laws God had established. He took the charges away by nailing them to the cross. He stripped the rulers and authorities of their power and made a public spectacle of them as he celebrated his victory in Christ.
(Col 2:14-15)

If we cannot reign with Christ right now, the cross is of no real meaning and is a post modern entity of relativism...

CFJ
Jul 9th 2015, 01:16 PM
Oh, and I really can't imagine why you follow up Rev 20 with this verse anyway. How is casting out demons/satan defeated in spirit momentarily, even remotely similar to being bound for a much longer period of time?

Every single believer can reign with Christ and the meaning of a 1000 years is not something we all agree on. If it is a literal period of time where as some believe all Levitical laws will be implemented again or where it is a perfect time of Christ's reign through the cross (the end of the Levitical laws), is part of this debate.

Noeb
Jul 9th 2015, 02:07 PM
What is the meaning of the cross for you Noeb? Did Christ not through the cross ensure Satan's fall?

He did this by erasing the charges that were brought against us by the written laws God had established. He took the charges away by nailing them to the cross. He stripped the rulers and authorities of their power and made a public spectacle of them as he celebrated his victory in Christ.
(Col 2:14-15)

If we cannot reign with Christ right now, the cross is of no real meaning and is a post modern entity of relativism...We are in a war right now. Has all been restored? Are we between the fall and regeneration or not? Reigning now in a spiritual sense and reigning in the regeneration are not the same. Is this it CFJ? Is there no earthly reign with Christ? What exactly are you hoping for? To sit around playing harps, sipping water and eating fruit? My bible says there's much work to be done when he returns, with cities and rulers and subjects. Rule and reign with him doesn't mean with his spirit in you now, it means with him physically here with you when he returns.

Walls
Jul 9th 2015, 02:52 PM
I think Satan was cast from heaven sometime after Gen 1:1 and before Gen 1:2 and will again attempt to ascend to the throne in heaven and will again be cast out.

Scripture gives some indications.

Job, who lived about the same time as Abraham, became the subject of a conversation in Job 1:6-7.

"6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Since the Lord was in heaven during this conference, Satan still had access to heaven about 2,000 BC. So too Job 2:2.

So also in 1st Kings 22:19-23 and 2nd Chronicles 18:18-22. A lying spirit was still in heaven in about 870 BC.

In Revelation 12 Satan is reported to do battle in heaven with Michael. It would seem from the timing that Satan is in heaven UNTIL the last 3 years of this age - "a short time" till his binding and imprisonment after Armageddon.

Much prophecy is written in the past tense. See Ezekiel's and Daniel's prophecies. This is because God has seen it as already accomplished. And this was my explanation of Luke 10:18.

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 9th 2015, 03:20 PM
In Revelation 12 Satan is reported to do battle in heaven with Michael. It would seem from the timing that Satan is in heaven UNTIL the last 3 years of this age - "a short time" till his binding and imprisonment after Armageddon.

Much prophecy is written in the past tense. See Ezekiel's and Daniel's prophecies. This is because God has seen it as already accomplished. And this was my explanation of Luke 10:18.

That's pretty much how I understand it, as well.




Reigning now in a spiritual sense and reigning in the regeneration are not the same.
[...]

Rule and reign with him doesn't mean with his spirit in you now, it means with him physically here with you when he returns.

This is my understanding, also.


"...in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory" (see also Matthew 25:31-34 "when the Son of man SHALL COME in His glory..." "then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory"), the 12 are told they will "sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30, see also vv.16,18 in that context)

Walls
Jul 9th 2015, 03:47 PM
It is put forth as an argument that Satan was cast out of heaven at the death of our Lord Jesus. But if the verses are read carefully, no such event took place then. So what took place?

Our Lord Jesus will come to earth twice. Once as the suffering son of Joseph, and once as the rampant Son of David and King of kings. The two comings of our Lord Jesus address the twofoldness of man's problems. Man was made to rule the earth (Gen.1:26-28). But through sin he forfeits his claim to the earth. He is now subject to the "Prince of the power of the air" and the "Prince of this world". The solution in the world's eyes would be to gather and train an army and defeat Satan militarily.

So also is the fate of Israel. They are Promised the Good Land by Covenant with Abraham. But they keep the Good Land by keeping the Covenant of the Laws of God. It was not Assyria nor Babylon that cast Israel out of their Land. They were only God's servant to do His will (Jer.25:6). It was God Who cast out Israel because of Israel's sins. Deuteronomy 29:21-28 says;

21 "And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day."

When our Lord came the first time, the Jews, thinking like the world, ALSO expected Christ to raise up an army to cast out Israel's enemies.

But the CAUSE of man's desperate situation is NOT ENEMIES. It is SIN and SINS! While Israel followed God, nobody could stand against them. The minute they turned from God they languished in defeat and slavery. So when our Lord Jesus came the FIRST TIME, He came to conquer sin and sins. He not only took our sins away on the cross, but by His lifestyle of obedience to God, defeated (1) the flesh, and (2) the power of the devil to provoke sin and consequently death. And the many scriptures put forward by our esteemed Brethren that Satan is cast from heaven, do not say this. They say His power as deceiver and provocateur of sins is defeated. And the LIFE of Christ, the keeper of the Law and of all obedience to God is put into Believers so that they too can defeat the Law of sin and death (Rom.8:2).

Having put aside sin and sins for men, our Lord Jesus now gives a certain time to assemble and train His ARMY. This ARMY must first put into practice the achievement of Christ to defeat sin and sins. That is, they are NOT REMOVED from enemy territory, but are commanded to "OVERCOME" the fallen situation WITHIN the enemy's territory. This is the spiritual warfare of Ephesians 6:10-18. It is NOT against flesh and blood but "wickedness" (verse 12). During this period of TRAINING and this period of TESTIMONY, the will of the Believer to cast aside his/her flesh and deny their souls (which have had a lifetime obeying the flesh) is TESTED and TRAINED. Those who have OVERCOME the fallen situation by carrying their crosses (the end of the flesh), and denying themselves (the end of the soul), are granted to join Christ when He executes the SECOND PART of His mission - the military overthrow of Satan. Thus, the saints who join Christ for the Great Battle in Revelation Chapter 19 are "clothed in THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS". It is not the righteousness established by Christ we read about in Romans. That is "God's righteousness" and is applied to the believer for His relationship with God. In Revelation Chapter 19 it is the "righteousness of the saints" that counts (v.8). It is not the applied righteousness of Christ, but "SHE HAS MADE HERSELF READY" (v.7)

The great MILITARY battle that all Jews looked for is only at the end of the age when Christ's army of Overcomers is ready. Only then is Satan cast from heaven. Notice the context of Satan's ejection from heaven in Revelation Chapter 12. It is (1) because the "Man-Child" is caught up to heaven, and (2) it is because, "... they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives (souls - lit. Gk.) unto the death" (Revelation 12:11). The Battle of heaven is fought by angels in Satan's expulsion from heaven in Chapter 12. But the Battle of the earth is fought by BOTH angels and MEN in Chapter 19.

And until the Overcoming Saints are assembled in heaven (Rev.19:14) after the rapture, Satan still has access to heaven.

Noeb
Jul 9th 2015, 04:22 PM
Well said Walls. What I disagree with in that posts is small and isn't important to the discussion. Excellent.

CFJ
Jul 9th 2015, 04:34 PM
We are in a war right now.

We are in a war, but we do have the perfect answer to reign with Christ, right now!


Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
(Joh 14:27)

War is about being afraid, being troubled, but yet Jesus nullify this and also see the following passages...


Joh 16:33, Joh 20:19, Joh 20:21, Joh 20:26; Num_ 26; Psa 29:11, Psa 72:2, Psa 72:7, Psa_ 5:10; Isa 9:6; Isa 32:15-17, Isa 54:7-10, Isa 54:13, Isa 55:12, Isa 57:19; Zec 6:13; Luk 1:79, Luk 2:14, Luk 10:5; Act 10:36; Rom 1:7, Rom 5:1, Rom 5:10, Rom 8:6, Rom 15:13; 1Co 1:3; 2Co 5:18-21; Gal 1:3; Gal 5:22, Gal 6:16; Eph 2:14-17; Phi 4:7; Col 1:2, Col 1:20, Col 3:15; 2Th 1:2, 2Th 3:16; Heb 7:2, Heb 13:20; Rev 1:4



Has all been restored?

Is the cross not complete?


Are we between the fall and regeneration or not? Reigning now in a spiritual sense and reigning in the regeneration are not the same. Is this it CFJ?

I can see what you are getting at, but we are past regeneration, on our way to glorification. Reigning now in a spiritual sense is regeneration, but not yet glorification.


Is there no earthly reign with Christ? What exactly are you hoping for? To sit around playing harps, sipping water and eating fruit? My bible says there's much work to be done when he returns, with cities and rulers and subjects. Rule and reign with him doesn't mean with his spirit in you now, it means with him physically here with you when he returns.

The message of the cross is in essence how the power of God became ours. We already own this. If it is not for a personal relationship with Christ, no single Christian will be able to reign and to overcome... Do you rather want to wait for a literal 1000 year reign to overcome or can you have it right now?

Why would anyone in his or her right mind, want something they don't have? Today many want die 1000 years and after that they want heaven too? All we should want is being in heaven, it is a simple message and a 1000 years extra reign just make this more complicated than needed..., we reign right now...

All Scripture before the cross show that the Kingdom of heaven is upon mankind and after the cross and Pentecost, all Scripture refers to the Kingdom of heaven that is here, with us and in us, as Jesus said beforehand.

Noeb
Jul 9th 2015, 04:45 PM
Matthew 19:28 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Noeb
Jul 9th 2015, 04:47 PM
The cross is a part of establishing the kingdom but the kingdom is not yet established.

Noeb
Jul 9th 2015, 07:26 PM
The message of the cross is in essence how the power of God became ours. We already own this. If it is not for a personal relationship with Christ, no single Christian will be able to reign and to overcome... Do you rather want to wait for a literal 1000 year reign to overcome or can you have it right now?I don't know where this came from. I haven't commented on this, don't know what it has to do with the subject, and wonder why you think I'm waiting to overcome. We are talking about ruling and reigning with Christ, not walking by faith.




All Scripture before the cross show that the Kingdom of heaven is upon mankind and after the cross and Pentecost, all Scripture refers to the Kingdom of heaven that is here, with us and in us, as Jesus said beforehand.I understand why you say these things but think you've totally misunderstood the mysteries of the kingdom. Jesus went away and sent another. He was rejected and put off the earthly reign. It's still gonna happen though. Also, you mentioned wanting to be in Heaven. IMO, this is one reason you don't see the mysteries clearly. We are for here, not Heaven. Heaven comes here along with God. Christianity is not Gnosticism, where we escape matter for spirit.

Noeb
Jul 9th 2015, 11:22 PM
Every single believer can reign with Christ and the meaning of a 1000 years is not something we all agree on. If it is a literal period of time where as some believe all Levitical laws will be implemented again or where it is a perfect time of Christ's reign through the cross (the end of the Levitical laws), is part of this debate.Yet you still sin and satan is still the god of this world. Not perfect at all.....yet.




Has all been restored?Is the cross not complete?Yes, but it's not finished doing its work. The resurrection has not passed and those perfected by it's work, and those still to come in, have not been united together to rule and reign with Christ yet.



I can see what you are getting at, but we are past regeneration, on our way to glorification. Reigning now in a spiritual sense is regeneration, but not yet glorification.By your own admission here we are not in the regeneration because it is the age to come. If you are looking for more than what you presently have, if you're not reigning in perfection, if you have any hope at all, why argue with yourself and me in the process?



The message of the cross is in essence how the power of God became ours. We already own this.Not in fulness CFJ, not in fulness. The spiritual kingdom has come in part but there's more to come for believers in glorification, and the physical aspect of the kingdom hasn't come at all yet.

CFJ
Jul 11th 2015, 10:59 AM
The cross is a part of establishing the kingdom but the kingdom is not yet established.

Noeb,

The Pharisees also expect a physical kingdom. This was Jesus's answer to them...


And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
(Luk 17:20-21)

We all can enter this kingdom now, this very time we live in and don't have to wait for a 1000 year literal physical kingdom!


Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:3)

Paul argues the exact same concept...


For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
(Rom 14:17)

For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
(1Co 4:20)

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
(Col 1:26-27)

Our King, Redeemer and Saviour sit on His throne, right now to reign over you and with you, not in a reign you cannot inherit and most likely will never inherit this so-called 1000 years physical reign of Christ. Why am I saying this? There is one good reason; -The hasty conclusion that twentieth century Israel is a restoration of Old Testament covenanted Israel is causing many Christians to watch Middle Eastern political events and speculate on their end-time meanings. Too many quickly forget the major Old Testament prophets foresaw a "New Covenant" and not the restoration of the "Old Covenant". (http://www.israel-101.info/)


Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:31-33)

...and will be their God, and they shall be my people! Says the Lord. Who are these people? My understanding is what Peter told us...,


But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
(1Pe 2:9-10)

You are welcome to disagree with me, but this is my honest understanding and I cannot see it any different, except God show this to me. Just something to consider...,


History’s record testifies that before the formation of the twentieth century Israeli state, all Christian theology taught that God’s new Israel was the spiritual Kingdom of God, neither worldly nor political. History also proves that all end time prophecies during the past 2,000 years have been wrong – except Jesus’ predictions of the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple, his resurrection, his spiritual return to Earth, and the coming of the Holy Spirit to make Christians "temples" to replace the destroyed Temple in Jerusalem.

Link (http://www.israel-101.info/)

In the above quote the following is said, 'and the coming of the Holy Spirit to make Christians "temples" to replace the destroyed Temple in Jerusalem.'


Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(Eph 2:19-22)


The 3rd Temple is not a physical Temple. The greatest proponents for propagating the 3rd Temple and the building thereof, is the Free Masons. Believers cannot focus on physical Temple's and physical kingdoms anymore...


But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:23)

Noeb
Jul 11th 2015, 04:09 PM
"The Kingdom" is physical and spiritual. This is undeniable. We get a physical body in the resurrection just as Jesus did. Satan, angels, etc have physical bodies. Heaven, the throne etc, are real and physical. The new heavens and earth are physical. If you disagree and think "the Kingdom" is just spiritual you are Gnostic, and you don't wanna be Gnostic.

Luke 17 doesn't say anything about a physical kingdom, that's your own assumption because you don't understand the mysteries of "The Kingdom". The context is spiritual, not physical. There were ten lepers cleansed but only one turned back to glorify God. The pharisees wanted more proof, but Jesus tells them the kingdom of God is indeed close but the ability to believe it comes from within themselves. They're not necessarily going to believe because a great sign is given them. They don't get to see first, then believe. Only one of the ten lepers perceived from within what happened and by whom and believed, and he was a Samaritan. To the pharisees, the spiritual wasn't for Samaritans, but the Jews, so they wanna know "where's ours?"

Also, by Luke 17, both John (the best man of bridegroom) and Jesus had been rejected and the physical aspect of "The Kingdom" was not going to come. Can't have a wedding if the best man has been killed. The disciples continued to ask about "The Kingdom" coming in fulness (restored) and Jesus did not deny it would come but rather said not to worry about when.

Again, only the spiritual aspect of "The Kingdom" has come and it has only come in part. We have not inherited the kingdom of God yet. Why aren't you posting those words from Paul? Please be consistent. The fact that we can come into the spiritual and participate in part and taste of the heavenly doesn't mean this is it.

A lot of OT prophecies have a two fold fulfillment and/or continual fulfillment. This is because they've been partly fulfilled in Jews, and are continuing to be, but have not been fulfilled for the Jews as a whole as God promised.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


I didn't say anything about a 3rd temple.

Fenris
Jul 12th 2015, 12:35 PM
Too many quickly forget the major Old Testament prophets foresaw a "New Covenant" and not the restoration of the "Old Covenant".[/url]


Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:31-33)
I'm not really sure why this would preclude a physical kingdom of Israel.

divaD
Jul 12th 2015, 01:00 PM
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Since I tend to see some pitting Scriptures against Scriptures via their interpretations, rather than trying to square Scriptures instead...so which of the two passages above is correct then? One says the kingdom of heaven is already at hand. The other says the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Instead of pitting these Scriptures against each other, isn't there a logical way to square them instead? I think there is. And that being the latter is referring to the physical kingdom that will appear when Christ reappears at the 2nd coming. Otherwise these passages contradict each other.

Walls
Jul 13th 2015, 12:04 PM
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Since I tend to see some pitting Scriptures against Scriptures via their interpretations, rather than trying to square Scriptures instead...so which of the two passages above is correct then? One says the kingdom of heaven is already at hand. The other says the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Instead of pitting these Scriptures against each other, isn't there a logical way to square them instead? I think there is. And that being the latter is referring to the physical kingdom that will appear when Christ reappears at the 2nd coming. Otherwise these passages contradict each other.

You are correct. What happened was that when our Lord Jesus came the first time, God, sincere in His promises, gave Israel Messiah Jesus as their King. Had Israel (1) repented of their sins and admitted the inability of the Law to justify a man before God, and (2) accepted Jesus as Messiah and Son of God, our Lord Jesus would have ushered in the "Kingdom of Israel" since its rightful King had come and His genealogy could be established. Once the "Kingdom of Israel" was established, the "rule" would have been "Heavenly" since that is what our Lord Jesus came for (Matt.6:10). The next logical step would have been the expulsion of Rome as their foreign Dominator. If Rome were militarily defeated, Israel would have been a large player in world politics, if not the Player, since Rome dominated the known world then. So if Israel, under the Messiah dominated world politics, a situation very similar to the Millennial reign would have prevailed. Rule of the earth would have gone out from Jerusalem and the "rules" would have been "Heavenly".

So rightly did our Lord Jesus say in Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7, and Mark 1:15 that "the Kingdom was at hand". It is just that the subjects of the King refused Him and murdered Him.

The result of this refusal was that our Lord Jesus (and the Father) was faced with either (1) giving up on a Heavenly Kingdom on earth, or (2) having to raise up an-other people with which to institute this Heavenly Kingdom. Since God cannot be thwarted in His councils, He;

removes the Kingdom from Israel (Matthew 21:43)
sends His disciples to witness in "... Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8)
"... takes out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14)

All this takes place while Israel is in chastisement, and the chastisement has a limit. It is 2 days according to Hosea 6:2. So the age in which God, through Christ's work and the application by the Holy Spirit, raises up His New Man for ruling, has a beginning and an end. And at the end of this period two things happen.

The Kingdom is introduced on earth as planned by Christ AND the New Man
Israel are restored to their Land with a New Covenant of Law written in their hearts

So Luke 21:31 is ALSO absolutely correct. The context of Luke 21 is THE END OF THE CHURCH AGE. So rightfully, it says; "So likewise ye, when ye see these things (those of the Chapter) come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

Noeb
Jul 13th 2015, 01:30 PM
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Since I tend to see some pitting Scriptures against Scriptures via their interpretations, rather than trying to square Scriptures instead...so which of the two passages above is correct then? One says the kingdom of heaven is already at hand. The other says the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Instead of pitting these Scriptures against each other, isn't there a logical way to square them instead? I think there is. And that being the latter is referring to the physical kingdom that will appear when Christ reappears at the 2nd coming. Otherwise these passages contradict each other.Exactly. The kingdom didn't come in fulness. Messiah was rejected. We only get to partake and taste right now. We haven't inherited it yet.

David Taylor
Jul 13th 2015, 02:55 PM
Dan, I am trying to get my understanding of who are the "elect" because in my study it is a pivotal point to me in defining the rapture and its timing. Thank you

Every time the greek work for Elect, "Ekeletos" is used in the NT to regular mortals (omitting an angelic and a Jesus ref), it is always used in context to denote born-again Christian believers; regardless of their enthnicity.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are so easy to get, if you ask the Holy Spirit, "who is Jesus' elect", quoting Mark 13:27, that are"gathered from the uttermost part of the Earth to the uttermost part of Heaven".

CFJ
Jul 14th 2015, 09:10 AM
I'm not really sure why this would preclude a physical kingdom of Israel.

Hi Fenris,

What would the new covenant mean (GRACE, FAITH AND SPIRIT), if the old covenant (WORKS, LAW AND FLESH) will be restored again? If the Levitical laws are restored in the literal 1000 year reign, it means that the fulfillment of the old- by the new covenant was of no avail...

Walls
Jul 14th 2015, 09:59 AM
Hi Fenris,

What would the new covenant mean (GRACE, FAITH AND SPIRIT), if the old covenant (WORKS, LAW AND FLESH) will be restored again? If the Levitical laws are restored in the literal 1000 year reign, it means that the fulfillment of the old- by the new covenant was of no avail...

You have posed a rhetorical question, so the answer hangs. So I do not agree or disagree. But have you considered that Jeremiah, an Hebrew prophet, speaking about Israel and Judah, predicts a New COVENANT of LAW. In 31:27-33 it is;

27 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Thus, the New Covenant is not a New Law. It is the SAME Law which our Lord Jesus confirms will NEVER pass until heaven and earth pass (Matt.5:18). It is made with Israel (10 northern Tribes) and Judah (2 southern Tribes). Hebrews Chapter 8 confirms this. The difference in COVENANT (not Law) is that it is written on the inward part of an Israelite and not on outward tables of stone. While no doubt Israel is the object of God's GRACE, and no doubt they, like Thomas, SEE and believe, and no doubt they are promised "New spirits" (Ezek.11:19, 18:31, 36:26), they will not experience the GRACE, FAITH and the HOLY SPIRIT like the Church. The Law of Moses remains in full effect during the Millennium, and even our Lord Jesus will feast the Passover then. The Passover entails the slaughter of Lambs throughout Israel. In Luke 22:7-16 our Lord Jesus said concerning the Passover, which ...
7"... must be killed";
......
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

Fenris
Jul 16th 2015, 01:20 AM
Hi Fenris,

What would the new covenant mean (GRACE, FAITH AND SPIRIT), if the old covenant (WORKS, LAW AND FLESH) will be restored again?
Walls answered the point well enough. That you ask the question in this manner means that you are already a believing Christian (as you obviously are). No place does the bible say that the "new covenant" will be one of "GRACE, FAITH AND SPIRIT". That is a Christian belief. If one does not consider the NT to be holy writ, why then the verse means what it says: That God will write the law on the hearts of the physical nation of Judah and Israel.