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rom826
Oct 9th 2015, 09:59 PM
John 16:8 says
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The bible also calls our adversary the devil our accuser

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



In your daily walk, how do you discern between the two and what is going on?

Slug1
Oct 9th 2015, 10:35 PM
John 16:8 says
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The bible also calls our adversary the devil our accuser

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



In your daily walk, how do you discern between the two and what is going on?The accusations of the devil cause guilt and the purpose of this type of guilt is to bring a person down when the person listens to this kind of guilt. The convictions of the Holy Spirit cause what can be felt as guilt but the purpose is to bring the person up when the person listens to the conviction.

Willows
Oct 9th 2015, 10:42 PM
The accusations of the devil cause guilt and the purpose of this type of guilt is to bring a person down when the person listens to this kind of guilt. The convictions of the Holy Spirit cause what can be felt as guilt but the purpose is to bring the person up when the person listens to the conviction.
Holy Spirit conviction is more like a realization than guilt, don't you think?

Slug1
Oct 9th 2015, 10:51 PM
Holy Spirit conviction is more like a realization than guilt, don't you think?It will simply boil down to semantics and what terms or terminology people choose to use, based on their particular whatevers ;)

I like simple stupid myself.

It works though. Ask a person what they want to do when the guilt bombards their mind and when they are honest and say, "I feel like going back to smoking a cigarette because I'm not worth anything," then I can explain how the accusations of guilt is bringing them down. They are listening to satan.

If the question is answered, "I feel like going back home and telling my mom that I'm sorry", then I explain that they are being conviction by the Holy Spirit because the guilt they are feeling is to being them up.

Ya see, Christians... especially many who have been in church for years and thus, they are mature... so many of them complicate it all, want to use big Christianese words, terms, whatnot. If it works... great, but in the position I'm in, where I can look at the lives of people, it's not really working as they are always "down", despite the words, "I am in victory." Words don't really mean much when there is no action behind them and this is where the problem is at. Christians have complicated it to the point they don't know how to put the words or lessons they hear, into action.

Realization is a great word to use. As a matter of fact, when a person "realizes" they did wrong and then they begin to feel unworthy and this leads to them going out to find a cigarette. Then, was the realization that bombarded their mind from the Holy Spirit, or from satan?

See what I mean?

Willows
Oct 9th 2015, 11:42 PM
It will simply boil down to semantics and what terms or terminology people choose to use, based on their particular whatevers ;)

I like simple stupid myself.

It works though. Ask a person what they want to do when the guilt bombards their mind and when they are honest and say, "I feel like going back to smoking a cigarette because I'm not worth anything," then I can explain how the accusations of guilt is bringing them down. They are listening to satan.

If the question is answered, "I feel like going back home and telling my mom that I'm sorry", then I explain that they are being conviction by the Holy Spirit because the guilt they are feeling is to being them up.

Ya see, Christians... especially many who have been in church for years and thus, they are mature... so many of them complicate it all, want to use big Christianese words, terms, whatnot. If it works... great, but in the position I'm in, where I can look at the lives of people, it's not really working as they are always "down", despite the words, "I am in victory." Words don't really mean much when there is no action behind them and this is where the problem is at. Christians have complicated it to the point they don't know how to put the words or lessons they hear, into action.

Realization is a great word to use. As a matter of fact, when a person "realizes" they did wrong and then they begin to feel unworthy and this leads to them going out to find a cigarette. Then, was the realization that bombarded their mind from the Holy Spirit, or from satan?

See what I mean?
Yes, I do. . .and I also am a fan of simple stupid.

Slug1
Oct 10th 2015, 12:00 AM
Yes, I do. . .and I also am a fan of simple stupid.:lol:

In many college classes I've taken, the general "understanding" is that a person must be told something 7 times before they begin to remember or they "get it".

Well, tell it to them simple stupid and it's takes only once or twice and they get it. If they need a third time... hand them the lesson and tell them to teach it... for some reason, they begin to get it when it's first put out and the 2nd go round is only to confirm what they learned the first time. :rolleyes:

But I only have this problem with Christians who have been in a church for many years and are thus mature. I don't know why those newbie Christians, you know, the ones that the mature ones (mature because they've been in a church for a long time) call immature or babes... but those newbie Christians get it that 1st or on 2nd go round. Never have to ask any newbie Christian to teach a lesson because they are too busy trying to learn so they can activate the Word into their lives.

Anyway.... realization, guilt... it's what either DOES (fruit) that is used to discern whether or not it's from the Holy Spirit, or satan.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 12:19 AM
but in the position I'm in, where I can look at the lives of people, it's not really working as they are always "down", despite the words, "I am in victory."

If you see brothers or sisters who are always "down" despite the words, "I am in victory" and look down upon those brothers and sisters in Christ, you might also be listening to the subtlety of the accuser. A better approach might be to believe God for the wisdom to help those brothers and sisters come to a place where they are not being overcome by the accuser and see the victory they have in Christ.

Slug1
Oct 10th 2015, 12:40 AM
If you see brothers or sisters who are always "down" despite the words, "I am in victory" and look down upon those brothers and sisters in Christ, you might also be listening to the subtlety of the accuser. A better approach might be to believe God for the wisdom to help those brothers and sisters come to a place where they are not being overcome by the accuser and see the victory they have in Christ.Hmm, how the possibility that I may look down at those who are down... is surprising to me. No, speaking life and teaching (discipleship) them is where I go when you read all I've posted into context. When a Christian is down because of the accuser, they need to be lifted up. This begins with counseling and then proper teaching of the Word enables them to ID the lies of the accuser and there is no chance for his "type" of guilt to even get planted and grow in them. With prayer throughout.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 02:23 AM
John 16:8 says
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The bible also calls our adversary the devil our accuser

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



In your daily walk, how do you discern between the two and what is going on?Would you consider you are not using either text correctly?

John 16:8 is about the Spirit coming to believers, not to convict believers, but that "the world" would be convicted of x, y, and z, through the lives and example of believers -1Pe 2:12.

Rev 12:10 isn't about being condemned by Satan when you sin anymore than any other scripture. I personally find this concept a little absurd. No offense intended of course, but think about it. First, it attributes a power or ability to Satan scripture does not. That pretty much nips it in the bud. If that's not enough, ask yourself why Satan would do the work of conscience/spirit/soul/image of God/God, and why he would be needed, since God has made other means of accomplishing this? IOW, where in scripture is there a feeling of condemnation and a separate feeling of conviction? I don't find it, and submit they are one and the same. Rev 12:10 says he was constantly against us but is now taken out of the way. It's never used in the sense many apply.

Whether man is born again or not, there's no need to discern between the two in your daily walk. There is not two (condemnation/conviction) and even the wicked sinner is convicted -Joh 8:9.

The Hebrew word for Satan.
śâṭân

Zec 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Accuse?
śâṭan

He is our adversary.
Barnes' Notes
"The description of Satan as an accuser accords with the opinion of the ancient Hebrews in regard to his character. Thus he is represented in Job 1:9-11; Job 2:4-5; Zechariah 3:1-2; 1 Chronicles 21:1."

There's really nothing in scripture to suggest Satan causes us to feel condemned, whether sinner or saved. Both have other means for this, either the old creature or the new creature.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 03:17 AM
Would you consider you are not using either text correctly?

John 16:8 is about the Spirit coming to believers, not to convict believers, but that "the world" would be convicted of x, y, and z, through the lives and example of believers -1Pe 2:12.

Rev 12:10 isn't about being condemned by Satan when you sin anymore than any other scripture. I personally find this concept a little absurd. No offense intended of course, but think about it. First, it attributes a power or ability to Satan scripture does not. That pretty much nips it in the bud. If that's not enough, ask yourself why Satan would do the work of conscience/spirit/soul/image of God/God, and why he would be needed, since God has made other means of accomplishing this? IOW, where in scripture is there a feeling of condemnation and a separate feeling of conviction? I don't find it, and submit they are one and the same. Rev 12:10 says he was constantly against us but is now taken out of the way. It's never used in the sense many apply.

Whether man is born again or not, there's no need to discern between the two in your daily walk. There is not two (condemnation/conviction) and even the wicked sinner is convicted -Joh 8:9.

The Hebrew word for Satan.
śâṭân

Zec 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Accuse?
śâṭan

He is our adversary.
Barnes' Notes
"The description of Satan as an accuser accords with the opinion of the ancient Hebrews in regard to his character. Thus he is represented in Job 1:9-11; Job 2:4-5; Zechariah 3:1-2; 1 Chronicles 21:1."

There's really nothing in scripture to suggest Satan causes us to feel condemned, whether sinner or saved. Both have other means for this, either the old creature or the new creature.

To be honest your post makes no sense at all to me. If you are suggesting that Satan is no longer an adversary of the believer, I strongly disagree. Also if you are suggesting that after being born again, a believer is no longer in need of being reproved, I strongly disagree. Also if you are suggesting that condemnation and reproof is the same thing I strongly disagree. I did read your post a couple of times and still couldn't figure out what you are trying to say. Please clarify.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 03:20 AM
Hmm, how the possibility that I may look down at those who are down... is surprising to me. No, speaking life and teaching (discipleship) them is where I go when you read all I've posted into context. When a Christian is down because of the accuser, they need to be lifted up. This begins with counseling and then proper teaching of the Word enables them to ID the lies of the accuser and there is no chance for his "type" of guilt to even get planted and grow in them. With prayer throughout.

I agree. Any Christian who is down because of the accuser needs to be lifted up with prayer and counseling.

jayne
Oct 10th 2015, 03:33 AM
2 Corinthians 7:10 - "For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death."

Holy Spirit conviction, while it may sting, leads to hope, repentance, and joy.

Accusations from the devil leads to nothing but guilt, anger, depression, and doubt.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 11:40 AM
rom826, lets start simple. Where are believers corrected, convicted, condemned in John 16:8 and Rev 12:10?
Put very simply, in one it's the world (indirectly), and in the other the accuser is cast down. Ball is in your court.



If you are suggesting that Satan is no longer an adversary of the believer, I strongly disagree.Fine, but based on what? (continue reading)
Just what do you think "adversary" means and Rev 12 is about? Is it not about being delivered from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God? That salvation has come through Christ and we can live in victory, Satan no longer our adversary? Our kingdom is stronger isn't it? What does it mean to be our adversary? Is he still, even after the cross?

""Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down"

You do realize the above took place when Christ was here don't you?

What do you think Jesus meant when He told the disciples He saw Satan fall like lightening when the disciples cast out demons? Did He mean Satan still retained his power over men?

Has Satan been cast down or not? Who has authority over who? Does he still rule over you? Can he condemn you?

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

If I have an adversary, does that mean I have someone whispering in my ear? No.
Does adversary mean whisperer of condemnation?



Also if you are suggesting that after being born again, a believer is no longer in need of being reproved, I strongly disagree.Why would you think that? I said.....
"the work of conscience/spirit/soul/image of God/God"
"God has made other means of accomplishing this (guilt)....(than Satan)....either the old creature (sinner) or the new creature (saved)."



Also if you are suggesting that condemnation and reproof is the same thing I strongly disagree.Of course those two are not the same. The word for reprove is elegchō which is also translated rebuke, convince, convicted-Joh 8:9 (as I pointed out for un-born-again pharisees --"being convicted by their own conscience"), and fault. Condemnation (judgment in the negative) follows being convicted if the judge so chooses. Can Satan do that to you? Is he your judge?

There's a lot of personal opinion in here and no scripture to back any of it up. I asked, "where in scripture is there a feeling of condemnation (from Satan) and a separate feeling of conviction (from the Spirit)?" and nothing has been produced, because it doesn't exist. Just what do you think condemn means anyway? 1Jn 3:20-21 says we can condemn ourselves with our own heart, but scripture never attributes this ability to Satan for a believer. The guilty are convicted, period, and may be condemned by either themselves or the judge. If you are a sinner that could be Satan because you are in his kingdom. If you are saved that would be Christ because you are in His kingdom. That's the point of Rev 12:10. The point is not that Satan is on the believers shoulder making you "feel" condemned.

Bottom line is, if you "feel" condemned you don't know the faith. Satan is not on your shoulder whispering condemnation in your ear, your own heart is condemning you. You need to be built up in the faith and learn who you are in Christ, then you'll have hope. The difference is the knowledge of Christ and the scriptures. The idea that when a believer sins, either Satan is condemning them or the Spirit is convicting them is absurd. The accuser was cast down. Does the Spirit take a backseat to Satan? Really? "Well, the Spirit can't be telling the individual to rely on a crutch instead of Christ." Well why do you think Satan is doing this? Is the individual not capable of relying on a crutch instead of Christ on their own?

The problem with what's being promoted here is that it takes the believer out of the equation. Repentance is decided by God not the individual. If the Spirit takes a backseat to Satan then you can't have godly sorrow and, too bad for you, you can't repent, sorry charlie. If the Spirit doesn't take a backseat, you're in luck, you can repent. C'mon

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 12:38 PM
Satan, no longer our adversary?!

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 12:51 PM
He is our adversary..
;)

1Ti 5:14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
1Ti 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

Where is he whispering in your ear? Making you feel condemned?

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 01:03 PM
Rev 12:10 ...........for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

See one, two, or three things here? I see three.

1) accuser
2) been thrown down
3) accuses them day and night before our God

Does 1 Peter 5 say we can't resist him? Could we if he hadn't been thrown down?
Does he accuse before God or whisper condemnation feelings in the believers ear?


Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 01:25 PM
.
;)

1Ti 5:14 So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.
1Ti 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

Where is he whispering in your ear? Making you feel condemned?

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Who is our warfare with? Satan and his host (Eph.6:12).
What actions are taken in this warfare? Casting down imaginations and every presumption that conflicts or elevates itself above the Word of God and bringing into captivity (under control) every THOUGHT to the obedience of Christ.

For me, it's not to difficult to see that the WARFARE we have with Satan is primarily fought in the arena of our minds, in our THOUGHT life.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 01:35 PM
We are talking about whether or not believers are condemned by Satan.
You are out of context in 2 Cor 10. It's about ministers of the gospel.

Gill
"2 Corinthians 10:4
For the weapons of our warfare,.... By "warfare" is here meant, not that which is common to all believers, who are enlisted as volunteers under the captain of their salvation, and fight his battles, and are more than conquerors through him; but what is peculiar to the ministers of the Gospel; and designs the ministerial function, or office, and the discharge of it. So the Levitical function, or the ministerial service of the Levites, is called העבדה צבא, "the warfare of the service", Num_8:25. The ministry of the word is so styled, because that as war is waged in defence of men's rights, properties, and liberties, and for the weakening of an enemy's power and possessions, and for the enlargement of kingdoms and dominions; so this is in defence of the truths and liberty of the Gospel, that they may continue and abide; for the weakening of Satan's kingdom, by delivering the lawful captives, taking the prey from the mighty, turning souls from the power of Satan to God, and translating them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Christ Jesus; and so for the enlargement of his kingdom, by spreading the Gospel far and near"

2Co 10:1 I, Paul, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when I am away!—
2Co 10:2 I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh.
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh.
2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
2Co 10:6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
2Co 10:7 Look at what is before your eyes. If anyone is confident that he is Christ's, let him remind himself that just as he is Christ's, so also are we.
2Co 10:8 For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be ashamed.
2Co 10:9 I do not want to appear to be frightening you with my letters.
2Co 10:10 For they say, "His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account."
2Co 10:11 Let such a person understand that what we say by letter when absent, we do when present.
2Co 10:12 Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.
2Co 10:13 But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you.
2Co 10:14 For we are not overextending ourselves, as though we did not reach you. For we were the first to come all the way to you with the gospel of Christ.
2Co 10:15 We do not boast beyond limit in the labors of others. But our hope is that as your faith increases, our area of influence among you may be greatly enlarged,
2Co 10:16 so that we may preach the gospel in lands beyond you, without boasting of work already done in another's area of influence.
2Co 10:17 "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
2Co 10:18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

1Co 4:18 Some are arrogant, as though I were not coming to you.
1Co 4:19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.
1Co 4:21 What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?


BTW; I have not said we have no spiritual fight.

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 01:38 PM
We are talking about whether or not believers are condemned by Satan.
You are out of context in 2 Cor 10. It's about ministers of the gospel.

Gill
"2 Corinthians 10:4
For the weapons of our warfare,.... By "warfare" is here meant, not that which is common to all believers, who are enlisted as volunteers under the captain of their salvation, and fight his battles, and are more than conquerors through him; but what is peculiar to the ministers of the Gospel; and designs the ministerial function, or office, and the discharge of it. So the Levitical function, or the ministerial service of the Levites, is called העבדה צבא, "the warfare of the service", Num_8:25. The ministry of the word is so styled, because that as war is waged in defence of men's rights, properties, and liberties, and for the weakening of an enemy's power and possessions, and for the enlargement of kingdoms and dominions; so this is in defence of the truths and liberty of the Gospel, that they may continue and abide; for the weakening of Satan's kingdom, by delivering the lawful captives, taking the prey from the mighty, turning souls from the power of Satan to God, and translating them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Christ Jesus; and so for the enlargement of his kingdom, by spreading the Gospel far and near"

Paul wrote this to BELIEVERS. He placed the warfare into the context of the thought life. With all due respect to Mr. Gill, he misses the obvious.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 01:49 PM
So here yet again you show you just absolutely cannot read and comprehend context. ok. You go ahead and keep pushing that popular satan is whispering to you stuff.

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 02:08 PM
So here yet again you show you just absolutely cannot read and comprehend context. ok. You go ahead and keep pushing that popular satan is whispering to you stuff.

No brother. I have no comprehension skills since I don't see things like you do.

I've never said that Satan is whispering to me anything. He can only be at one place at one time and I don't think I'm important enough for his singular attention.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 02:22 PM
With all due respect to Mr. Gill, he misses the obvious.Really?

Ellicot
"He speaks as if leading an attack on the strong defences of the powers of evil, possibly thinking of the great system of idolatry and impurity enthroned at Corinth and throughout the Empire, possibly of those of pride and obstinate rebellion in the hearts of his individual opponents. The context favours the latter interpretation."

Benson
"Namely, the word of God and prayer, attended with the influence of the Divine Spirit, in his various gifts and graces, giving efficacy to their preaching in public, their converse in private, and their holy, exemplary, and beneficent lives. The means they used to enlighten, reform, regenerate, and save the world, were effectual, because the Lord wrought with them, and confirmed their word with signs following, Mark 16:20. Pulling down strong holds — Ignorance, prejudice, unbelief, fleshly lusts, worldly affections, desires of wealth, honour, pleasure, errors and vices of all sorts, and whatever was opposed by the wit, or wisdom, or power, or malice, or cruelty of men or devils, against the progress of the gospel in the world, and the influence of divine grace in the souls of men. In the original expression, προς καθαιρεσιν οχυρωματων, the apostle appears to allude to the beating down of fortresses by means of military engines, to which engines he compares their spiritual weapons above mentioned. And as the strong holds of which he speaks were demolished chiefly by preaching the gospel, by plain and simple men, without wisdom of words, or, as he expresses himself, (1 Corinthians 1:21,) by the foolishness of preaching, "

Barnes
"The sense is, that God is the author of the doctrines which we preach, and that he attends them with the agency of his Spirit, and accompanies them to the hearts of people. It is important for all ministers to feel that their weapons are mighty only through God."

Gill
"2 Corinthians 10:4
For the weapons of our warfare,.... By "warfare" is here meant, not that which is common to all believers, who are enlisted as volunteers under the captain of their salvation, and fight his battles, and are more than conquerors through him; but what is peculiar to the ministers of the Gospel; and designs the ministerial function, or office, and the discharge of it. So the Levitical function, or the ministerial service of the Levites, is called העבדה צבא, "the warfare of the service", Num_8:25. The ministry of the word is so styled, because that as war is waged in defence of men's rights, properties, and liberties, and for the weakening of an enemy's power and possessions, and for the enlargement of kingdoms and dominions; so this is in defence of the truths and liberty of the Gospel, that they may continue and abide; for the weakening of Satan's kingdom, by delivering the lawful captives, taking the prey from the mighty, turning souls from the power of Satan to God, and translating them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Christ Jesus; and so for the enlargement of his kingdom, by spreading the Gospel far and near"

JFB
""The efficacy of the Christian religion proves its truth" [Bengel].
........
strongholds—(Pr 21:22); namely, in which sinners entrench themselves against reproof; all that opposes itself to Christ; the learning, and eloquence, and philosophical subtleties on which the Corinthians prided themselves."

Poole
"weapons he meaneth the word of God, and his preaching the gospel, or the censures of the church duly administered, it is true, they are not of a carnal nature, or fitted to the subduing of men’s bodies, and bringing them into subjection; they are of a spiritual nature, and have their effects upon the mind and inward part of a man; yet, through the concurrence of Divine grace, there is in them a mighty force and power, to pull down
strong holds: by which metaphorical expression he understands whatsoever opposeth the gospel, and seemeth to defend and uphold men in their sinful courses; subduing the will of man, which is so strong a hold that all the power of hell cannot storm it. "

Meyers
"By the weapons (comp. 2 Corinthians 6:7; Romans 6:13; Romans 13:12) are to be understood the means, which the apostolic activity makes use of in the strife with the hostile power.
πρὸς καθαίρεσιν ὄχυρωμάτων] that, for which the weapons are mighty: to the pulling down of strongholds (Xen. Hell. iii. 2. 3; very frequent in the books of the Maccabees; comp. ὀχυρὸς πύργος, τόπος, ὀχυρὰ πόλις, φρουρά, and the like). The τύφος Ἑλληνικός and the ἰσχὺς τῶν σοφισμάτων καὶ τῶν διαλογισμῶν (Chrysostom) are included in the phrase. It does not, however, mean these alone, nor the “old walls of the Jewish legal system” (Klöpper), but generally everything, which may be included as belonging to the category of humanly strong and mighty means of resistance to the gospel."

Bengel's Gnomen
"2 Corinthians 10:4. Τὰ γὰρ ὅπλα, for the arms [weapons]) From the paternal rod, 1 Corinthians 4:21 [shall I come unto you with a rod?], he now proceeds to arms, with increasing severity; comp. presently 2 Corinthians 10:6; also 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 5:13.—οὐ σαρκικὰ, ἀλλὰ δυνατὰ) not carnal and weak, but spiritual, and therefore mighty.—τῷ Θεῷ [Engl. Vers., “through God,”] to God) This is virtually an accusative case.[63] So ch. 2 Corinthians 2:15, to God. In like manner, Acts 7:20; in the same way as the preposition ל is used as a prefix, Jonah 3:3 [an exceeding great city, “lit. a city of God]. The power is not ours, but of God. The efficacy of the Christian religion is an argument of its truth."

Pulpit
"he hoped to subdue them by the strong exercise of apostolic authority"

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 02:24 PM
I've never said that Satan is whispering to me anything. He can only be at one place at one time and I don't think I'm important enough for his singular attention.Great! Then you agree Satan does not condemn us?

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 03:55 PM
rom826, lets start simple. Where are believers corrected, convicted, condemned in John 16:8 and Rev 12:10?
Put very simply, in one it's the world (indirectly), and in the other the accuser is cast down. Ball is in your court.


Fine, but based on what? (continue reading)
Just what do you think "adversary" means and Rev 12 is about? Is it not about being delivered from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God? That salvation has come through Christ and we can live in victory, Satan no longer our adversary? Our kingdom is stronger isn't it? What does it mean to be our adversary? Is he still, even after the cross?

""Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down"

You do realize the above took place when Christ was here don't you?

What do you think Jesus meant when He told the disciples He saw Satan fall like lightening when the disciples cast out demons? Did He mean Satan still retained his power over men?

Has Satan been cast down or not? Who has authority over who? Does he still rule over you? Can he condemn you?

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

If I have an adversary, does that mean I have someone whispering in my ear? No.
Does adversary mean whisperer of condemnation?


Why would you think that? I said.....
"the work of conscience/spirit/soul/image of God/God"
"God has made other means of accomplishing this (guilt)....(than Satan)....either the old creature (sinner) or the new creature (saved)."


Of course those two are not the same. The word for reprove is elegchō which is also translated rebuke, convince, convicted-Joh 8:9 (as I pointed out for un-born-again pharisees --"being convicted by their own conscience"), and fault. Condemnation (judgment in the negative) follows being convicted if the judge so chooses. Can Satan do that to you? Is he your judge?

There's a lot of personal opinion in here and no scripture to back any of it up. I asked, "where in scripture is there a feeling of condemnation (from Satan) and a separate feeling of conviction (from the Spirit)?" and nothing has been produced, because it doesn't exist. Just what do you think condemn means anyway? 1Jn 3:20-21 says we can condemn ourselves with our own heart, but scripture never attributes this ability to Satan for a believer. The guilty are convicted, period, and may be condemned by either themselves or the judge. If you are a sinner that could be Satan because you are in his kingdom. If you are saved that would be Christ because you are in His kingdom. That's the point of Rev 12:10. The point is not that Satan is on the believers shoulder making you "feel" condemned.

Bottom line is, if you "feel" condemned you don't know the faith. Satan is not on your shoulder whispering condemnation in your ear, your own heart is condemning you. You need to be built up in the faith and learn who you are in Christ, then you'll have hope. The difference is the knowledge of Christ and the scriptures. The idea that when a believer sins, either Satan is condemning them or the Spirit is convicting them is absurd. The accuser was cast down. Does the Spirit take a backseat to Satan? Really? "Well, the Spirit can't be telling the individual to rely on a crutch instead of Christ." Well why do you think Satan is doing this? Is the individual not capable of relying on a crutch instead of Christ on their own?

The problem with what's being promoted here is that it takes the believer out of the equation. Repentance is decided by God not the individual. If the Spirit takes a backseat to Satan then you can't have godly sorrow and, too bad for you, you can't repent, sorry charlie. If the Spirit doesn't take a backseat, you're in luck, you can repent. C'mon

There are just too many scriptures denying you claim that we no longer have any adversary. Also, I am not sure why you use the words guilt and condemnation as interchangeable with reproof and correction. They do not mean the same thing.

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 04:03 PM
Great! Then you agree Satan does not condemn us?

I rarely agree with you on anything and this is another time I don't.

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 04:04 PM
Really?

Ellicot
"He speaks as if leading an attack on the strong defences of the powers of evil, possibly thinking of the great system of idolatry and impurity enthroned at Corinth and throughout the Empire, possibly of those of pride and obstinate rebellion in the hearts of his individual opponents. The context favours the latter interpretation."

Benson
"Namely, the word of God and prayer, attended with the influence of the Divine Spirit, in his various gifts and graces, giving efficacy to their preaching in public, their converse in private, and their holy, exemplary, and beneficent lives. The means they used to enlighten, reform, regenerate, and save the world, were effectual, because the Lord wrought with them, and confirmed their word with signs following, Mark 16:20. Pulling down strong holds — Ignorance, prejudice, unbelief, fleshly lusts, worldly affections, desires of wealth, honour, pleasure, errors and vices of all sorts, and whatever was opposed by the wit, or wisdom, or power, or malice, or cruelty of men or devils, against the progress of the gospel in the world, and the influence of divine grace in the souls of men. In the original expression, προς καθαιρεσιν οχυρωματων, the apostle appears to allude to the beating down of fortresses by means of military engines, to which engines he compares their spiritual weapons above mentioned. And as the strong holds of which he speaks were demolished chiefly by preaching the gospel, by plain and simple men, without wisdom of words, or, as he expresses himself, (1 Corinthians 1:21,) by the foolishness of preaching, "

Barnes
"The sense is, that God is the author of the doctrines which we preach, and that he attends them with the agency of his Spirit, and accompanies them to the hearts of people. It is important for all ministers to feel that their weapons are mighty only through God."

Gill
"2 Corinthians 10:4
For the weapons of our warfare,.... By "warfare" is here meant, not that which is common to all believers, who are enlisted as volunteers under the captain of their salvation, and fight his battles, and are more than conquerors through him; but what is peculiar to the ministers of the Gospel; and designs the ministerial function, or office, and the discharge of it. So the Levitical function, or the ministerial service of the Levites, is called העבדה צבא, "the warfare of the service", Num_8:25. The ministry of the word is so styled, because that as war is waged in defence of men's rights, properties, and liberties, and for the weakening of an enemy's power and possessions, and for the enlargement of kingdoms and dominions; so this is in defence of the truths and liberty of the Gospel, that they may continue and abide; for the weakening of Satan's kingdom, by delivering the lawful captives, taking the prey from the mighty, turning souls from the power of Satan to God, and translating them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Christ Jesus; and so for the enlargement of his kingdom, by spreading the Gospel far and near"

JFB
""The efficacy of the Christian religion proves its truth" [Bengel].
........
strongholds—(Pr 21:22); namely, in which sinners entrench themselves against reproof; all that opposes itself to Christ; the learning, and eloquence, and philosophical subtleties on which the Corinthians prided themselves."

Poole
"weapons he meaneth the word of God, and his preaching the gospel, or the censures of the church duly administered, it is true, they are not of a carnal nature, or fitted to the subduing of men’s bodies, and bringing them into subjection; they are of a spiritual nature, and have their effects upon the mind and inward part of a man; yet, through the concurrence of Divine grace, there is in them a mighty force and power, to pull down
strong holds: by which metaphorical expression he understands whatsoever opposeth the gospel, and seemeth to defend and uphold men in their sinful courses; subduing the will of man, which is so strong a hold that all the power of hell cannot storm it. "

Meyers
"By the weapons (comp. 2 Corinthians 6:7; Romans 6:13; Romans 13:12) are to be understood the means, which the apostolic activity makes use of in the strife with the hostile power.
πρὸς καθαίρεσιν ὄχυρωμάτων] that, for which the weapons are mighty: to the pulling down of strongholds (Xen. Hell. iii. 2. 3; very frequent in the books of the Maccabees; comp. ὀχυρὸς πύργος, τόπος, ὀχυρὰ πόλις, φρουρά, and the like). The τύφος Ἑλληνικός and the ἰσχὺς τῶν σοφισμάτων καὶ τῶν διαλογισμῶν (Chrysostom) are included in the phrase. It does not, however, mean these alone, nor the “old walls of the Jewish legal system” (Klöpper), but generally everything, which may be included as belonging to the category of humanly strong and mighty means of resistance to the gospel."

Bengel's Gnomen
"2 Corinthians 10:4. Τὰ γὰρ ὅπλα, for the arms [weapons]) From the paternal rod, 1 Corinthians 4:21 [shall I come unto you with a rod?], he now proceeds to arms, with increasing severity; comp. presently 2 Corinthians 10:6; also 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 5:13.—οὐ σαρκικὰ, ἀλλὰ δυνατὰ) not carnal and weak, but spiritual, and therefore mighty.—τῷ Θεῷ [Engl. Vers., “through God,”] to God) This is virtually an accusative case.[63] So ch. 2 Corinthians 2:15, to God. In like manner, Acts 7:20; in the same way as the preposition ל is used as a prefix, Jonah 3:3 [an exceeding great city, “lit. a city of God]. The power is not ours, but of God. The efficacy of the Christian religion is an argument of its truth."

Pulpit
"he hoped to subdue them by the strong exercise of apostolic authority"

Copy/paste commentaries?? I'm glad I'm able to read the Word of God for myself.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 04:07 PM
We are talking about whether or not believers are condemned by Satan.
You are out of context in 2 Cor 10. It's about ministers of the gospel.

Gill
"2 Corinthians 10:4
For the weapons of our warfare,.... By "warfare" is here meant, not that which is common to all believers, who are enlisted as volunteers under the captain of their salvation, and fight his battles, and are more than conquerors through him; but what is peculiar to the ministers of the Gospel; and designs the ministerial function, or office, and the discharge of it. So the Levitical function, or the ministerial service of the Levites, is called העבדה צבא, "the warfare of the service", Num_8:25. The ministry of the word is so styled, because that as war is waged in defence of men's rights, properties, and liberties, and for the weakening of an enemy's power and possessions, and for the enlargement of kingdoms and dominions; so this is in defence of the truths and liberty of the Gospel, that they may continue and abide; for the weakening of Satan's kingdom, by delivering the lawful captives, taking the prey from the mighty, turning souls from the power of Satan to God, and translating them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Christ Jesus; and so for the enlargement of his kingdom, by spreading the Gospel far and near"

.

Strange. Here you are quoting someone is who contradicting what you are saying.


BTW; I have not said we have no spiritual fight.

Could have fooled me. It seems that is what you have been arguing in all your posts.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 04:42 PM
Copy/paste commentaries?? I'm glad I'm able to read the Word of God for myself.Me too smarty. Now we just need to get you to learn context. I didn't know these agreed with me until I checked this morning. Care to contradict? Nope. Because you can't. :kiss:

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 04:43 PM
Strange. Here you are quoting someone is who contradicting what you are saying.I posted them because they agree and you come back and say they disagree? Now THAT is strange.




Could have fooled me. It seems that is what you have been arguing in all your posts.Guess you are fooled then by your own inability to comprehend. Are you going to show us scripture where Satan makes us feel condemned or not? Anyone?

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 04:52 PM
I rarely agree with you on anything and this is another time I don't.It's not unusual for you to not say much, seem to say one thing, then clarify with another. At least when I do it I attempt to use scripture and give my comments. So how exactly is Satan making you feel condemned then if he's (demons/spirits/whatever) not there with ya?

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 05:07 PM
There are just too many scriptures denying you claim that we no longer have any adversary.Like I asked, did Peter say we are under his power? No he did not. I quoted myself saying "we have an adversary" and attempted to explain what in means in the NT sense. The cross was effectual. The adversary has been cast down. That's straight from the very verse you wanna use to say Satan makes us feel condemned. Direct contradiction. When we are born again and walk after the Spirit he no longer has authority. Is my claim inaccurate? Show me.

Where is your attempt to show Satan makes us feel condemned? I put forth an effort at least. More than anyone else has done to show Satan makes us feel condemned. All I get in return is slammed for trying. Enjoy your fear doctrine. :wave:



Also, I am not sure why you use the words guilt and condemnation as interchangeable with reproof and correction. They do not mean the same thing.I wasn't aware I did.

"The guilty are convicted, period, and may be condemned by either themselves or the judge."

If you break the law you are guilty of breaking the law. That's called sinning.
When you sin you feel guilty because you are. You have gone against nature, God, and law.
Condemnation is the judgment handed down for doing so.

katakrima
kat-ak'-ree-mah
From G2632; an adverse sentence (the verdict): - condemnation.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:6 doesn't mean feel bad.

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 05:19 PM
It's not unusual for you to not say much, seem to say one thing, then clarify with another. At least when I do it I attempt to use scripture and give my comments. So how exactly is Satan making you feel condemned then if he's (demons/spirits/whatever) not there with ya?

Would you care to quote me when you put words in my mouth?

Otherwise, I really don't bother much with trying to convince you of anything.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 05:26 PM
Would you care to quote me when you put words in my mouth?

Otherwise, I really don't bother much with trying to convince you of anything.You said you Satan makes us feel condemned and isn't around. We all just read it.



I've never said that Satan is whispering to me anything. He can only be at one place at one time and I don't think I'm important enough for his singular attention.Great! Then you agree Satan does not condemn us?I rarely agree with you on anything and this is another time I don't.

You don't bother trying with anyone so don't act like it's just with me. No scripture and one to four sentences is all you offer.

Sojourner
Oct 10th 2015, 05:32 PM
Gentlemen, we can do without the trading of barbs. Before things escalate, let's take a deep breath and cool down before continuing. By all means, discuss, and look for flaws in doctrinal positions in the light of Scripture. But do so without resorting to personal remarks.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 05:54 PM
I posted them because they agree and you come back and say they disagree? Now THAT is strange.



Guess you are fooled then by your own inability to comprehend. ?

I would rather discuss with someone who does not stoop to the throwing around insults. It is rather immature and I see you do the same with others as well. Grow up a little.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 06:03 PM
2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Who is our warfare with? Satan and his host (Eph.6:12)..

I agree. Yet some will read Eph.6:12 and still say we do not really have an adversary.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 06:08 PM
Being ignorant of our adversary and his devices only let's him take advantage of us.



2 Cor 2:11
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

We do have have to be ignorant of our adversary and his devices seeing scripture gives us plenty of instruction on how to deal with him if we are willing to listen.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 06:15 PM
2 Corinthians 7:10 - "For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death."

Holy Spirit conviction, while it may sting, leads to hope, repentance, and joy.

Accusations from the devil leads to nothing but guilt, anger, depression, and doubt.

You brought up and excellent scripture dealing with this issue. Thanks for responding.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:15 PM
I would rather discuss with someone who does not stoop to the throwing around insults. It is rather immature and I see you do the same with others as well. Grow up a little.It's an easy out. I get it. Enjoy.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:16 PM
I agree. Yet some will read Eph.6:12 and still say we do not really have an adversary.I've never known anyone to deny we have an adversary. Where'd you hear this?

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:18 PM
You brought up and excellent scripture dealing with this issue. Thanks for responding.There's nothing in there about "Accusations from the devil" leading to " guilt, anger, depression, and doubt".

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:24 PM
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

I don't see anything about making people feel condemned and stuff here. His name is opponent. He is the enemy. A murderer, liar, and tempter. No scripture says he makes us feel bad.

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 06:26 PM
2 Corinthians 7:10 - "For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death."

Holy Spirit conviction, while it may sting, leads to hope, repentance, and joy.

Accusations from the devil leads to nothing but guilt, anger, depression, and doubt.



Amen!! Anyone with any spiritual walk with the Lord understands this.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:26 PM
Being ignorant of our adversary and his devices only let's him take advantage of us.



2 Cor 2:11
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

We do have have to be ignorant of our adversary and his devices seeing scripture gives us plenty of instruction on how to deal with him if we are willing to listen.Amen and Amen!!!!!!!

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:27 PM
Amen!! Anyone with any spiritual walk with the Lord understands this.You mean, anyone with what you perceive to be a spiritual walk.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:30 PM
Look folks, this is about the third thread on this I've been in over the years where no one has come forth with any evidence that Satan makes us feel bad and the same scriptures are used either out of context or to say what they in no way could possibly say. You need to produce scripture here in "Bible Chat". This isn't "What Do You Think" or "What Do You Feel".

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 06:51 PM
. You need to produce scripture here in "Bible Chat". .Scripture has already been produced. It is bogus tactic to say scripture is not being used just because you do not like what scripture was used. in any case, are you finished derailing the thread? The original post said nothing about "feeling bad". Not to sure what your real hang up is.

rom826
Oct 10th 2015, 06:52 PM
I would like to thank those who did make positive contributions to this thread.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:53 PM
The OP asked, "In your daily walk, how do you discern between the two [condemnation/conviction] and what is going on?". Slug1 had a very good point in post #4, though indirect because he meant it another way. He said, "Realization is a great word to use." The question is not, "what they want to do when the guilt bombards their mind". There's no solution there. The question is why do they feel guilty? Because they are. Jesus provided the way of escape for every temptation, so what's up? Scripture tells people to grow up and wonders why it's taking so long. Telling people to claim victory is psych-babble. Claiming you are in victory when you are not is psycho-failure. People either believe the gospel or they don't. If they don't they're gonna continue in sin. If they continue in sin they're gonna feel guilty because they are. And we're gonna say it's because Satan is making them feel bad without a single verse of support? Seriously? You mean it's not grieving the Spirit? It's not because you are bringing reproach to His name and are a bad example? It's not because you've been given all things pertaining to holiness and choose to try to accomplish in the flesh that which can only be accomplished in the Spirit?

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:55 PM
in any case, are you finished derailing the thread?Oh I'm totally on topic.


The original post said nothing about "feeling bad". Not to sure what your real hang up is.I'm sorry then. What do you think Satan is doing exactly and what scripture do you have to back it up?

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 06:58 PM
I would like to thank those who did make positive contributions to this thread.it's negative to point out the Spirit corrects the world in John 16 and the accuser is cast out in Rev 12? That there is 0 scripture to support Satan making people feel condemned? It's negative to shed light on these facts?

ChangedByHim
Oct 10th 2015, 07:01 PM
I would like to thank those who did make positive contributions to this thread.

It's a good topic.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 07:09 PM
Not to sure what your real hang up is.My hang up is I made a post, you asked for clarification, I gave it and you haven't addressed anything in it. We had a nice, short but nice, interaction in another thread the other day and thought I was going to get a little consideration from you. I know I don't get any from CBH, I'm used to that, but I didn't spend time clarifying to have you ignore it. Sure, that happens, and others will read what I wrote, but I expected more from you.

Noeb
Oct 10th 2015, 08:45 PM
Scripture has already been produced. It is bogus tactic to say scripture is not being used just because you do not like what scripture was used.Scripture is produced for other doctrines like sin nature/original sin too, and you participate in those threads because guess what? Just because you think a passage or few say something, doesn't mean everyone else does. That's why we have discussions. This should be no different. It's funny though, every time this topic is brought up there's no discussion. Just, here's what most think, and everyone else is crazy because the majority say so. *THAT sounds bogus to me ;) Christians have a sin problem and make light of it, acting like it's the devil that makes them feel bad. Nope. God ain't happy with your unbelief. There's the facts. Is that negative or positive? Hmmmm?

Anyway, I'll leave now and let everyone point at Satan like Adam pointed at Eve.

jsnbd
Oct 10th 2015, 10:42 PM
Rom8:26, In both cases you are alluding to feelings of guilt and discerning the source. You only gave two sources. There is another; one's own mind; an aspect of our free will. I know people who have been conditioned to think that just about everything which goes wrong is their fault. They are continually irrationally and illogically apologizing for things they had no hand in. If one really is trying to discern guilt feelings then the FIRST step of determination/troubleshooting, (IMO) before one delves into the spiritual sources, should be into this personal psychological source. Sometimes people will assume guilt rather than assert their innocence just because they are so afraid of conflict. Once one is assured that it is not a personal growth/development/healing issue that needs to be resolved then (IMO) the two spiritual sources can be looked at.

I have been taught that guilt is a good thing as long as we handle it correctly (1 Jn 1:9). God created us so we had a tool, like a thermometer, which informed us when our relationship with Him was getting "sick." Once we have dealt with and cleared personal/emotional/psych reasons from the picture we can examine the spiritual.

IMO God designed guilt feelings as a tool to make His children aware that they are contemplating/doing or have done something which interferes with their relationship with Him. If we are saved then we know how much He loves us and wants our relationship restored/unbroken. We have been taught that He holds a future for us and that all things work together for the good of His children. Unlike Adam and Eve who ran and hid and had to be covered up by God, we are already forgiven through our faith in what Christ has done to restore us to God, the Father. The sin covering is already in place and there is no condemnation to anticipate coming from God; only a miraculous and unbelievable gracious love and forgiveness, always for eternity. Thanks and praise be to the Unblemished Lamb, the Lord Jesus Christ!!! If we are saved we have opened the door to Him and He has come in and supped with us; we are His own now. If we are saved and have tasted of His love and forgiveness we KNOW that like the father of the prodigal son, He will be waiting on us with open arms to come to him with our guilt and confess our sin and that He will be ANXIOUS to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:9) and rejoice and celebrate in our reunion. Satan WANTS Christians to do things which would make us feel guilty but he definitely doesn't want us to feel guilty; at least at the first stages of delving into sin. Maybe after one has transgressed into such a degree of quantity or depth of sinning. Then satan might use guilt to make one think that they are unworthy of God's love and that it is never going to be restored. But that person would have to be to a such a point where they would allow their emotions to over rule all of the facts of Scripture stated above; those facts of Scripture whereby they were saved from sin in the first place. And this point might not come to one who first resolved any emotional baggage which might make them vulnerable to such a ploy.

I am going out on a limb w/o any time left for this for careful thought and propose for follow-up the thought that since we have such a loving and gracious Father in heaven who will welcome our confession and joyfully restore us (as if it were needed-only for our perspective IMO) why worry about the source of guilt? Confess it to the Lord! He will not condemn us; only love us. If we are in a sane and healthy mind we can appropriately process the inherited knowledge of good and evil w/o spiritual intervention and we know who restitution is due. Stop avoiding accountability and do it. You will be overwhelmed with joy and peace and wonder why you waited so long.


John 16:8 says
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The bible also calls our adversary the devil our accuser

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



In your daily walk, how do you discern between the two and what is going on?

Slug1
Oct 11th 2015, 01:25 AM
Great! Then you agree Satan does not condemn us?Noeb, when Jesus warns us that satan is the father of "lies"... how can he be this if he can't speak lies to us?

Noeb
Oct 11th 2015, 02:20 AM
Noeb, when Jesus warns us that satan is the father of "lies"... how can he be this if he can't speak lies to us?Warns? I don't see a warning there. I do see men who were not saved wanting to murder Jesus and lying about His birth -two things Jesus said were of Satan. I don't see any reason to think Satan was doing this but lets say he did. They were not believers, so that shoots your theory down. Jesus said they were of Satan....they were like Satan's offspring; see - Eph 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Satan the father of.....goes back to the fall and the results we see in this fallen world -Eph 2. It doesn't mean Satan is actually their father and so obviously doesn't mean when someone lies Satan did it or was the direct cause. Indirectly because of the fall, sure. Like get behind me Satan doesn't mean Peter was actually Satan in any way, just that what Peter wanted was in opposition to what God wanted and that's Satan's adversarial role. It's representative language. Same in John 8 with murder and lies.

There's no evidence he can know thoughts. No evidence he can 'give thoughts', unless we're unsaved and possessed. Here's an old and interesting thread on it
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/179167-Does-Satan-communicate-with-us

rom826
Oct 11th 2015, 07:16 AM
Christians have a sin problem.
I agree. You do include yourself in that statement, don't you?

boangry
Oct 11th 2015, 10:54 AM
Warns? I don't see a warning there. I do see men who were not saved wanting to murder Jesus and lying about His birth -two things Jesus said were of Satan. I don't see any reason to think Satan was doing this but lets say he did. They were not believers, so that shoots your theory down. Jesus said they were of Satan....they were like Satan's offspring; see - Eph 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Satan the father of.....goes back to the fall and the results we see in this fallen world -Eph 2. It doesn't mean Satan is actually their father and so obviously doesn't mean when someone lies Satan did it or was the direct cause. Indirectly because of the fall, sure. Like get behind me Satan doesn't mean Peter was actually Satan in any way, just that what Peter wanted was in opposition to what God wanted and that's Satan's adversarial role. It's representative language. Same in John 8 with murder and lies.

There's no evidence he can know thoughts. No evidence he can 'give thoughts', unless we're unsaved and possessed. Here's an old and interesting thread on it
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/179167-Does-Satan-communicate-with-us

Heya Noeb, there is a perception out there that Satan goes round implanting thoughts and notions into peoples heads and when people follow through with it then Satans lie has manifested itself and caused someone to sin, this opposes so much scriptural doctrines I don't know where to start. I took notice when you said that Satan being the father of lies is representative of our own sin being opposed to God and us following the same path as Satan(my paraphrase) Scripture does this on many occasions, our father Abraham left his homeland, was prepared to follow God first and foremost and Abraham being the father of faith does not mean that as his sons, Abraham somehow puts the notions into our hearts and in turn takes credit for it, people would not misconstrue this yet people don't have a problem misapplying the same scenario and giving Satan credit for our sin.

This thought is so ingrained into people they cant reason things normally, take for example when David numbered Israel, I have heard people say Satan made him do it, when I ask them how he made David do it people cant answer the question or they say that he made him do it by some mystical means.( I presume by putting thoughts into his head) would this not take the sin away from David? David who by faith went up against Goliath, who knew God always used small numbers against impossible odds to show that Gods hand was indeed involved in the victories, now all of a sudden shows a lack of faith in God by trying to put victory into his/Israels hand.

The corresponding verse shows that God caused David to number Israel so which is it?
The account happens in the vicinity of Tyre, we know Satan was later the king of Tyre, we know he was the king of Assyria, So when he gathered his armies near Israel David saw the armies and in turn sinned by counting men, a detestable thing for one who is supposed to let God influence the victories.

Then theres the account of Job and the hedge around him which I believe is taken in the opposite context its meant to be in by the mass, but times up and while we are convicted by the HS of sin, I agree with your thoughts its our own sin and the Lord knows we are weak and sometimes faltering like David mostly faithful for He knows our hearts and he paid the price for us, that we will be presented clean, and our cleanness might be hidden or hard to see or fathom but combined with genuine belief that's what he accomplished for us at the cross, amen.

ChangedByHim
Oct 11th 2015, 12:31 PM
Here are my two shekels on how this matter of Satan influerncing the mind plays out:

- Satan can only be one place at one time and likely none of us here have ever had a direct encounter.
- There are countless demons that at different times directly attack believers (Eph 6.12 "wrestle" = contact combat; Paul said he "buffets me" Gr. "stike with the fist")
- In that contact combat, Satan (his forces) will attempt to deceive us in the arena of the mind - just as he did with Eve. His tactics have not changed. Satan is the master liar. Many scriptures show evidence of this warfare.
- However, outside of his direct (his forces) assualt, he uses two other influences:
1. The world system (Satan uses media, music, pop culture, etc.) to infiltrate the thought life (Rom 12.2).
2. The sin nature/ flesh - Rom 7.23 says that the sin nature wars against the mind trying to bring it into captivity to sin.
- These two tactics, altough not direct, are the top two strategies of Satan in defeating Christians.

divaD
Oct 11th 2015, 05:11 PM
Here are my two shekels on how this matter of Satan influerncing the mind plays out:

- Satan can only be one place at one time and likely none of us here have ever had a direct encounter..

Apparently someone such as myself reasons this a bit differently. satan for sure can be in more than one place at a time, but not meaning him personally, but meaning through his demons. I suspect there are likely billions of those doing his bidding, if not more.

Noeb
Oct 11th 2015, 06:34 PM
I agree. You do include yourself in that statement, don't you?No. Christians are not supposed to have a sin problem. You've missed the point. When believers continually sin, feel guilty, then blame Satan for the guilt they're experiencing, they're not utilizing God given mechanisms intended to warn us and help us grow and mature, so they remain carnal (fleshly). BTW, if it's the Spirit and you say it's Satan, what do you call that? I wouldn't call it blaspheming the Spirit because there's no ill intent, but anyway....

Slug1
Oct 11th 2015, 06:35 PM
Apparently someone such as myself reasons this a bit differently. satan for sure can be in more than one place at a time, but not meaning him personally, but meaning through his demons. I suspect there are likely billions of those doing his bidding, if not more.CbH covered what you just said here in his second point of that post :P

Slug1
Oct 11th 2015, 06:38 PM
Here are my two shekels on how this matter of Satan influerncing the mind plays out:

- Satan can only be one place at one time and likely none of us here have ever had a direct encounter.
- There are countless demons that at different times directly attack believers (Eph 6.12 "wrestle" = contact combat; Paul said he "buffets me" Gr. "stike with the fist")
- In that contact combat, Satan (his forces) will attempt to deceive us in the arena of the mind - just as he did with Eve. His tactics have not changed. Satan is the master liar. Many scriptures show evidence of this warfare.
- However, outside of his direct (his forces) assualt, he uses two other influences:
1. The world system (Satan uses media, music, pop culture, etc.) to infiltrate the thought life (Rom 12.2).
2. The sin nature/ flesh - Rom 7.23 says that the sin nature wars against the mind trying to bring it into captivity to sin.
- These two tactics, altough not direct, are the top two strategies of Satan in defeating Christians.Hooah. satan can only tempt... when we are deceived (blinded), or weak, "we" can take that temptation and jump head first into what will destroy us. The world is just ONE big trap and he uses our very own flesh as the lure to get us to bite what is out there in the world meant to destroy us.

Noeb
Oct 11th 2015, 06:41 PM
Heya Noeb, there is a perception out there that Satan goes round implanting thoughts and notions into peoples heads and when people follow through with it then Satans lie has manifested itself and caused someone to sin, this opposes so much scriptural doctrines I don't know where to start. I took notice when you said that Satan being the father of lies is representative of our own sin being opposed to God and us following the same path as Satan(my paraphrase) Scripture does this on many occasions, our father Abraham left his homeland, was prepared to follow God first and foremost and Abraham being the father of faith does not mean that as his sons, Abraham somehow puts the notions into our hearts and in turn takes credit for it, people would not misconstrue this yet people don't have a problem misapplying the same scenario and giving Satan credit for our sin.

This thought is so ingrained into people they cant reason things normally, take for example when David numbered Israel, I have heard people say Satan made him do it, when I ask them how he made David do it people cant answer the question or they say that he made him do it by some mystical means.( I presume by putting thoughts into his head) would this not take the sin away from David? David who by faith went up against Goliath, who knew God always used small numbers against impossible odds to show that Gods hand was indeed involved in the victories, now all of a sudden shows a lack of faith in God by trying to put victory into his/Israels hand.

The corresponding verse shows that God caused David to number Israel so which is it?
The account happens in the vicinity of Tyre, we know Satan was later the king of Tyre, we know he was the king of Assyria, So when he gathered his armies near Israel David saw the armies and in turn sinned by counting men, a detestable thing for one who is supposed to let God influence the victories.

Then theres the account of Job and the hedge around him which I believe is taken in the opposite context its meant to be in by the mass, but times up and while we are convicted by the HS of sin, I agree with your thoughts its our own sin and the Lord knows we are weak and sometimes faltering like David mostly faithful for He knows our hearts and he paid the price for us, that we will be presented clean, and our cleanness might be hidden or hard to see or fathom but combined with genuine belief that's what he accomplished for us at the cross, amen.Thanks for this boangry. I hadn't thought about Abraham and other instances of representative language. The other examples and the rest of your post is also spot on.

Noeb
Oct 11th 2015, 11:28 PM
- There are countless demons that at different times directly attack believers (Eph 6.12 "wrestle" = contact combat; Paul said he "buffets me" Gr. "stike with the fist")When I was a babe I saw demons on a few occasions. Had one jump on my back. Casts them out. Don't see em any more. Just saying this to say I believe in direct contact but not in mind. However, Paul didn't say Satan or demons buffeted him. That's not what 'the messenger of Satan' means. This again is representative language for what takes place in a fallen world. This is evident in the fact that Satan would not want to keep Paul from becoming conceited. :idea: Like a nose, everyone has an opinion, but it in no way implies either Satan or his minions directly did this. It's most likely representative of either sickness or disease, or a result of his beatings.



- In that contact combat, Satan (his forces) will attempt to deceive us in the arena of the mind - just as he did with Eve. His tactics have not changed.You think Eve just heard a voice in her head? The fall was a result of, hard to distinguish circumstance? Really?
We've already disagreed on the context of 2Cor 10, despite its clarity, so there's no point in rehashing that. Thanks for restating your opinion.

boangry
Oct 12th 2015, 09:57 AM
Here are my two shekels on how this matter of Satan influerncing the mind plays out:

- Satan can only be one place at one time and likely none of us here have ever had a direct encounter.
- There are countless demons that at different times directly attack believers (Eph 6.12 "wrestle" = contact combat; Paul said he "buffets me" Gr. "stike with the fist")
- In that contact combat, Satan (his forces) will attempt to deceive us in the arena of the mind - just as he did with Eve. His tactics have not changed. Satan is the master liar. Many scriptures show evidence of this warfare.
- However, outside of his direct (his forces) assualt, he uses two other influences:
1. The world system (Satan uses media, music, pop culture, etc.) to infiltrate the thought life (Rom 12.2).
2. The sin nature/ flesh - Rom 7.23 says that the sin nature wars against the mind trying to bring it into captivity to sin.
- These two tactics, altough not direct, are the top two strategies of Satan in defeating Christians.


Hooah. satan can only tempt... when we are deceived (blinded), or weak, "we" can take that temptation and jump head first into what will destroy us. The world is just ONE big trap and he uses our very own flesh as the lure to get us to bite what is out there in the world meant to destroy us.

Guys help me out, I understand how my flesh has desires for the things of the world, and how MY desires cause me to look to world, instead of looking to the creator of the world, I can see how Satan lusted after the world, all the riches he accumulated, the positions of power he had and wanted, and I guess you guys can see the analogy of walking in Satans footsteps, but the idea of Satan directly attacking me is well, a non event!
The world is just ONE big trap and he uses our very own flesh as the lure to get us to bite what is out there in the world meant to destroy us I agree with this, if my desires cause me to lust after something a downward spiral would begin, (if I don't check it) but saying Satan uses our flesh as the lure to get us to bite into the world is a paradox to me, Satan doesnt have to use my flesh my flesh already contains lustful desires so I really don't understand what the point is? The HS is already helping me to overcome, and put to death self so the victory is assured by Christs redeeming act on the cross. Satan is not some great foe, not even a little foe, not even worth worrying about one little bit, worry about sin and its lusts thereof which will remove the desire and longing for the Lord Jesus Christ that is what will shipwreck ones faith and destroy your soul.


Even when Paul talked about a messenger of Satan he was talking metaphorically and I can relate 100% to what Paul writes,

What does Paul saying his weakness in the flesh was? I think he had a supernatural encounter with a bright light in which he immediately recognised the Lord was the source of and addressed him as Such; the Lord identified himself as Jesus Christ which Paul immediately accepted. Paul then recognised his grave error in persecuting Jesus of Nazareth. Paul would have come to this conclusion on his own but the Lord quickened the process hence he was born out of due time. Born out from darkness and into the light from the realm of Satan to the realm of God, however he was going to have a reminder of his grave error, a cost for this sudden transformation.

Paul was now blinded from the bright light and “And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.” Acts 22:11

Ananias went to the house where Paul was to lay hands on him that he may receive his sight and flakes or scales fell from his eyes. “And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.” acts 9:18

Welders flash that causes badly burnt eyes can cause temporary blindness and forms flakes over the eyes, when this happens this usually leads to some permanent vision loss, The weakness Paul suffered was some form of vision impairment, It was a reminder of his walk in darkness against his God and saviour Jesus Christ?


God entrusted Paul as a minister of the good news which was “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” Acts 26;18

We believers were once in darkness but now we are in the light of the Lord, Eph_5:8

Paul had a thorn in the flesh, yes the flesh not the soul not the spirit but the flesh, which was a messenger of Satan to buffet him, his blindness reminded him of his previous denial of the Lord and how the Lord had to actually appear to him which had a physical cost and this also helped Paul from being highly exalted, the glory is the Lords not Pauls it is the Lord who provided this great ministry to the world, lest Paul be exalted above measure.

So when we read that Paul had to write in large letters, when we see the Galatians show concern for Paul by offering him their own eyes, and when we see that Paul did not recognise it was the high priest that was speaking for if he did he would surely not have rebuked him we can conclude Paul had very bad eyesight.
When I look at Pauls blindness this way it gives me more appreciation of all the light and darkness parables given to us in the bible. I can see that the scriptures are plainly and simply colluding with scripture that Paul had bad eyesight a reminder of his own trust he once had in his own flesh a weakness indeed.

Christinme
Oct 12th 2015, 12:35 PM
When I was a babe I saw demons on a few occasions. Had one jump on my back. Casts them out. Don't see em any more. Just saying this to say I believe in direct contact but not in mind.Do you mean cast them "off" and not "out"? If they were on your back and not in your mind you would cast them "off" compared to casting them "out". I one time over a period of time (months) had what I believe to be direct contact in my mind. There used to be a thread where I described this but it, along with many of the old threads, is gone now. I did recently speak to someone about this so I can easily put what I said here.

"I did mention that my parents weren't religious and they weren't very "righteous", well actually pretty unrighteous. And that when I was young I felt the presence of a righteous being. So ... when I was about 11 or 12 my parents sat me down to have a talk with me and said to me that I didn't have to do everything I was asked to do. They saw me as a very obedient and "righteous" child ... but I didn't do unrighteous things to be obedient ... that wasn't what they were getting at.

A short while after that discussion I would go into my room (which was a new room because my father had just finished rebuilding the 3rd floor of the house, which was a centuries old house) ... and I would hear voices ... well it started out as one voice saying something like "It's good to be bad" ... then it became many voices saying something like "It's good to be bad, come join us." [Clarifying here and realizing I didn't clarify to the person I was talking to ... that the voices were not I believe in the room but were in my mind, I did not "perceive" the voices through my ears but through my mind.] It never really scared me ... I still felt the presence of the righteous being. Then after awhile I said to them out loud (it was the first time and only time I talked to them) something like "You can keep saying that but I'm not listening so you are just wasting your time." Awhile after that, not immediately, the voices stopped."

Noeb
Oct 12th 2015, 01:58 PM
Out, away,.... Was just being brief, describing several scenarios of "seeing", but no, no one was possessed.

Christinme
Oct 12th 2015, 02:05 PM
Out, away,.... Was just being brief, describing several scenarios of "seeing", but no, no one was possessed.Well I wouldn't consider that I was possessed either ... so are you now indicating that the "seeing", since you have it quoted, was a "seeing" through your understanding or mind as to differentiate it from a seeing being through your eyes?

Noeb
Oct 12th 2015, 05:09 PM
Our actual eyes can actually see.

2 Kings 6:17 (KJV) And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Christinme
Oct 12th 2015, 05:49 PM
Our actual eyes can actually see.

2 Kings 6:17 (KJV) And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.I don't see that those verses necessarily mean his actual physical eyes ... some commentaries I've read seem to apply this to "spiritual" eyes or to a vision ... http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_kings/6-17.htm

Hey I'm questioning ... so don't take offense please. You seem to think one can see something with their physical eyes but can't hear or see such things with their minds ...

keck553
Oct 12th 2015, 06:00 PM
It's been in my experience that accusation is associated with shame and conviction is associated with repentance. In other words accusations are target at the person while conviction is targeted at actions.

Big difference.

Slug1
Oct 12th 2015, 07:01 PM
It's been in my experience that accusation is associated with shame and conviction is associated with repentance. In other words accusations are target at the person while conviction is targeted at actions.

Big difference.I like this :idea:

Sojourner
Oct 13th 2015, 02:03 AM
It's been in my experience that accusation is associated with shame and conviction is associated with repentance. In other words accusations are target at the person while conviction is targeted at actions.

Big difference.

Yep. Another difference is, accusations always tear down, while conviction is designed to edify and show us where we are lacking, so as to add to, or preserve what we have.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 02:38 AM
I don't see that those verses necessarily mean his actual physical eyes ... some commentaries I've read seem to apply this to "spiritual" eyes or to a vision ... http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_kings/6-17.htmSome yes.



Hey I'm questioning ... so don't take offense please. You seem to think one can see something with their physical eyes but can't hear or see such things with their minds ...Why not both? Not a vision, but if the spirit has eyes it can actually see, and if not then it's the eye of the body that it sees through, or is made to or able to see. Our physical bodies will be changed/glorified and remain physical. When the limitations are removed (2 Kings 6:17) what will we see with physical eyes? Any reason this can't happen now? Seems to have there. Was the army of the Lord not really there? Is that not how Israel's battles were won? I think so. I've also never said we can't hear with our actual ears or spirit or see with our minds or spirit (visions). I've merely pointed out that Satan, or his minions, are not constantly talking to Spirit filled believers as it's being proposed here.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 02:40 AM
It's been in my experience that accusation is associated with shame and conviction is associated with repentance. In other words accusations are target at the person while conviction is targeted at actions.

Big difference.
Yes, but this doesn't speak to the question of Satan doing it.

Christinme
Oct 13th 2015, 09:34 AM
Why not both?I think both can happen.


I've merely pointed out that Satan, or his minions, are not constantly talking to Spirit filled believers as it's being proposed here.Ok so you say not constantly happening but then are you agreeing it can happen?

Christinme
Oct 13th 2015, 09:47 AM
The Holy Spirit convicts us so that we can turn back to God. Satan, his minions or even our own mind can accuse us OR even worse EXCUSE us to keep us from turning back to God. Our own minds can turn towards satan or God ... when it is turned towards satan our own minds can be a tool of satan. Just because we are believers does not mean that we can't fall into this trap. We must hold on to faith. Through faith we are overcomers ... when/if we don't hold fast to that we don't overcome ... sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

keck553
Oct 13th 2015, 03:31 PM
Yes, but this doesn't speak to the question of Satan doing it.

Accusations in the absence of two or more qualified witnesses are works of satan. I think the Bible is quite clear about that.

keck553
Oct 13th 2015, 03:55 PM
it's negative to point out the Spirit corrects the world in John 16 and the accuser is cast out in Rev 12? That there is 0 scripture to support Satan making people feel condemned? It's negative to shed light on these facts?

Well this is a good question, really. Scripture says this -

“When the Spirit comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment. Concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged”

Quite a passage to unpack.

I think the bible primary teaches the concept of guilt, as opposed "the world", which teaches the concept of shame. The big difference here is that shame attaches to the person. Guilt attaches to the act. In "worldly" cultures when a person does wrong they are marked, identified as "bad people". This stain doesn't really depart from them in the eyes of "the world." Even when they have "paid their sentence" they still carry this shame with them.

The Biblical concept teaches us that what is wrong is not the doer but the deed (which is where we get the phrase - "not the sinner but the sin"). Biblically, the forgiven person who has repented of his/her guilt retains his or her fundamental worth. That is why in our Biblical culture we have a processes of repentance, atonement and forgiveness.

satan loves the world system because no matter how much someone tries to turn from their wicked deeds, their shame never leaves them. All their striving, stuggles and works don't give them the simple relief of forgiveness. This is such a distraction for them because if they can't grasp the Biblical concept their spiritual point of view will be clouded with distortion of God's true character ("God hates me....God can't forgive my deeds....God is a cruel judge," etc.). This is why it is so important that we reach the lost with the Good News that the ruler of this world has been judged and found severely lacking in righteousness, that our God Reigns.

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

That He is a God of justice. That He paid the price for our iniquities, and that act is what pulled out all of satan's teeth and made his accusations harmless against the people of God.

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."

In my humble opinion, that is.

Christinme
Oct 13th 2015, 03:55 PM
Accusations in the absence of two or more qualified witnesses are works of satan. I think the Bible is quite clear about that.I'm not so sure that can be supported by Scripture ... I see Scripture saying there should be two witnesses but not that if there aren't then an accusation is the work of satan. And how does that line up with Acts 5:1-11 with Peter and Ananias and his wife Sapphira? And also how do these verses support that conviction is always to be uplifting?

keck553
Oct 13th 2015, 04:20 PM
I'm not so sure that can be supported by Scripture ... I see Scripture saying there should be two witnesses but not that if there aren't then an accusation is the work of satan. And how does that line up with Acts 5:1-11 with Peter and Ananias and his wife Sapphira? And also how do these verses support that conviction is always to be uplifting?

I think the Holy Spirit Himself was a witness in that case. But that was a very uncommon event. How many people have dropped dead from lying in church since then? I experienced just this thing to an extreme last week in church during a church business meeting. It was very exhausting, I'm here to tell you.....

There is no debate about false accusations -

"If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst."

With more thought about accusations in general, I want to add -

"For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." - Rev 12:10

It doesn't say "false" accusations, so I get the idea that the accuser is shaming the saints in question with sin that they have been forgiven of.

What do you think?


.

Christinme
Oct 13th 2015, 05:11 PM
I think the Holy Spirit Himself was a witness in that case. But that was a very uncommon event. How many people have dropped dead from lying in church since then? I experienced just this thing to an extreme last week in church during a church business meeting. It was very exhausting, I'm here to tell you.....

There is no debate about false accusations -

"If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst."

With more thought about accusations in general, I want to add -

"For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." - Rev 12:10

It doesn't say "false" accusations, so I get the idea that the accuser is shaming the saints in question with sin that they have been forgiven of.

What do you think?


.Well I would tend to think accusations made by satan are LIES ... so if we are dealing with an accusation that is a true accusation I don't think that should be understood to have come from satan. In our own mind we may feel hopeless and brought down by a true accusation but that doesn't mean that it is from satan. Also we have to be careful that we aren't offhandedly just claiming any accusation is from satan because we don't believe it to be true. That's my thoughts.

keck553
Oct 13th 2015, 05:24 PM
Well I would tend to think accusations made by satan are LIES ... so if we are dealing with an accusation that is a true accusation I don't think that should be understood to have come from satan. In our own mind we may feel hopeless and brought down by a true accusation but that doesn't mean that it is from satan. Also we have to be careful that we aren't offhandedly just claiming any accusation is from satan because we don't believe it to be true. That's my thoughts.

The lie would be that the saint is not forgiven, but why would the accusation be a lie? If I sin, satan knows it, and his attempt to "remind" me of it or shame me - well that is the lie, the lie being that Jesus somehow came up short atoning for my sin. That would mean that Jesus is not God. That is the lie.

Christinme
Oct 13th 2015, 05:31 PM
The lie would be that the saint is not forgiven, but why would the accusation be a lie? If I sin, satan knows it, and his attempt to "remind" me of it or shame me - well that is the lie, the lie being that Jesus somehow came up short atoning for my sin. That would mean that Jesus is not God. That is the lie.Your post I responded to talked about false accusations ... and that is what I was responding to. Anyways I agree that to say we aren't forgiven is a lie also ... again false accusations are from satan. However if we say that a true accusation is from satan and deny that it is true ... well that isn't kosher ... :) and that was what I was getting at. Again just my thoughts.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 06:30 PM
I think both can happen.
By both I intended spirit and physical eye.... I said, "not a vision", not that I don't believe we can have visions, but that when we see a demon we actually see a demon, spirit, whatever. I don't see any reason to think 2 Kings 6:17 is a vision.



Ok so you say not constantly happening but then are you agreeing it can happen?
Sure but under what circumstances? Someone walking in the light? No. Someone in rebellion and sin, or maybe someone who thinks Satan does this and this is his role? Sure. Satanist themselves will tell you spells only work on the weak and fearful. The predator goes after sheep that don't trust the shepherd and wanders away. Otherwise it's protected.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 06:38 PM
Accusations in the absence of two or more qualified witnesses are works of satan. I think the Bible is quite clear about that.When every instance has Satan before God? Where is an example of Satan accusing a believer to the believer?

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 06:39 PM
Well I would tend to think accusations made by satan are LIES ... so if we are dealing with an accusation that is a true accusation I don't think that should be understood to have come from satan. In our own mind we may feel hopeless and brought down by a true accusation but that doesn't mean that it is from satan. Also we have to be careful that we aren't offhandedly just claiming any accusation is from satan because we don't believe it to be true. That's my thoughts.Satan says hey God, look what they did. He's not lying.

Christinme
Oct 13th 2015, 06:44 PM
Satan says hey God, look what they did. He's not lying.Well when satan said before God that Job only worshipped God because of the things God did for him well that accusation proved to be false ... at least that's the way I understand it.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 06:51 PM
Well when satan said before God that Job only worshipped God because of the things God did for him well that accusation proved to be false ... at least that's the way I understand it.and who was accused there? God or Job? See, people think this is about the believer but it's really about Satan accusing God for being unjust. This is the point of the righteousness of God. That's what Rev 12 is about. But now the righteousness of God is.....

Get it?

Christinme
Oct 13th 2015, 07:20 PM
and who was accused there? God or Job? See, people think this is about the believer but it's really about Satan accusing God for being unjust. This is the point of the righteousness of God. That's what Rev 12 is about. But now the righteousness of God is.....

Get it?I think both were being accused by satan ... he is an equal opportunity accuser ...

keck553
Oct 13th 2015, 07:28 PM
Your post I responded to talked about false accusations ... and that is what I was responding to. Anyways I agree that to say we aren't forgiven is a lie also ... again false accusations are from satan. However if we say that a true accusation is from satan and deny that it is true ... well that isn't kosher ... :) and that was what I was getting at. Again just my thoughts.

Well if we do wrong, isn't the accusation that we did wrong true? The problem is that satan uses our sins to devalue us to the point our shame interferes with our service to God. I think that was my point. I also stated that the "world" does this also.

Of course false accusations are in a category of themselves.

keck553
Oct 13th 2015, 07:30 PM
Where is an example of Satan accusing a believer to the believer?

One place is in Revelation 12:10 Unless I am reading it wrong. My main point spoke more to people picking up the sword of satan and doing it though..."the world," so to speak.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 09:06 PM
I think both were being accused by satan ... he is an equal opportunity accuser ...You're missing the point. Who is Satan talking to? God or us? Is he before God or before us? I have drilled this point home from the beginning yet people wanna keep saying he's talking to us. I don't get that.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 09:13 PM
One place is in Revelation 12:10 Unless I am reading it wrong.
Revelation 12:10..... the accuser.... before our God day and night.

rom826
Oct 13th 2015, 10:55 PM
Well I would tend to think accusations made by satan are LIES ... so if we are dealing with an accusation that is a true accusation I don't think that should be understood to have come from satan. In our own mind we may feel hopeless and brought down by a true accusation but that doesn't mean that it is from satan. Also we have to be careful that we aren't offhandedly just claiming any accusation is from satan because we don't believe it to be true. That's my thoughts.

What if a believer has already repented and been forgiven by God?

rom826
Oct 13th 2015, 11:24 PM
No. Christians are not supposed to have a sin problem. You've missed the point. When believers continually sin, feel guilty, then blame Satan for the guilt they're experiencing, they're not utilizing God given mechanisms intended to warn us and help us grow and mature, so they remain carnal (fleshly). ..

if a Christian has the type of attitude you describe here, I would definitely agree with you that it would be wrong for that Christian to blame Satan for their guilt. I would say it would be the Holy Spirit confronting that believer. I would say though the type of Christian you are describing is most likely very rare. I would say the majority of Christians want to walk righteously with their heavenly father. What about a Christian who has already repented, been forgiven by God, yet still feels guilt. I have met many fellow believers in that situation. Are you saying there is no way a spiritual battle could be going on there?

rom826
Oct 13th 2015, 11:30 PM
The lie would be that the saint is not forgiven, but why would the accusation be a lie? If I sin, satan knows it, and his attempt to "remind" me of it or shame me - well that is the lie, the lie being that Jesus somehow came up short atoning for my sin. That would mean that Jesus is not God. That is the lie.

Is that an automatic or do believers have to ask God for it?

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 11:44 PM
if a Christian has the type of attitude you describe here, I would definitely agree with you that it would be wrong for that Christian to blame Satan for their guilt. I would say it would be the Holy Spirit confronting that believer. I would say though the type of Christian you are describing is most likely very rare. I would say the majority of Christians want to walk righteously with their heavenly father. What about a Christian who has already repented, been forgiven by God, yet still feels guilt. I have met many fellow believers in that situation. Are you saying there is no way a spiritual battle could be going on there?if they have repented and are forgiven why are they still feeling guilt? Satan more powerful that God? You really think Satan can make us feel guilty? No. The problem is the individuals wrong theology and faith. A lot of things are credited to Satan that belong to the individual.

Noeb
Oct 13th 2015, 11:48 PM
Is that an automatic or do believers have to ask God for it?where does scripture have us asking for it? The Lord's prayer is a statement that God do as we do, and 1John is a walk in the light in agreement with God.

jsnbd
Oct 14th 2015, 01:47 AM
if they have repented and are forgiven why are they still feeling guilt? Satan more powerful that God? You really think Satan can make us feel guilty? No. The problem is the individuals wrong theology and faith. A lot of things are credited to Satan that belong to the individual.

Noeb, The answer to that has already been given in post#55 on pg 4. :pp

Noeb
Oct 14th 2015, 02:18 AM
Noeb, The answer to that has already been given in post#55 on pg 4. :ppwell, it's a long post and many things agree with me, others don't, so you'll have to be more specific. Also, there's three questions in my post so which one are you talking about? Should I assume the first?

Noeb
Oct 14th 2015, 03:38 AM
Well when satan said before God that Job only worshipped God because of the things God did for himAfter re-reading this, I have to ask how you came to this conclusion? I'm not seeing anything like this. I see Satan saying, if I could touch him I could make him sin. That's very different.

Concerning the topic, no doubt Peter had this passage in mind
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

when he said
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Why? Satan appeared before God to accuse man to God, but God said there was a man he could not accuse -Job. Peter says the same should be true for Christians, and that if it is true, like Job you are protected because you "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony".

God's plan to have a lower than Satan/angel creature have faith in Him in the face of Satan/angels who did not, has always been Satan's target. This is what I was getting at earlier -Rev 12:10 declares Rom 3:26.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested....
......
Rom 3:25 .....to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just
God is Just -Rom 3:4, 26, yet while Satan and his followers suffered consequences for their sin, God was accused of being unjust every time Satan said to God (not man) -look at their sin -Rom 3:25-26, Job 1, Rev 12. This was happening constantly -"day and night". Now, a man created lower than Satan/angels has come and never sinned, and Rev 12:10 ........Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The idea that believers walking with God are subject to Satan is contrary to Job 1, Rev 12, Rom 3, and all scripture. The righteousness of God doesn't mean Jesus was righteous. That's just a part of it. It's also about God being vindicated for fulfilling His promise to bring Salvation after such a long time of passing over sin -Rom 3:25. The two go together because the Savior had to be a man, and one that had not sinned.

When it says, "For therein [the gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith" it's talking about God fulfilling His purpose and promise through Israel (Rom 9:5) and sending the Savior after such a long time of passing over sin. The character of God had already been revealed. God revealed the fulfillment of His purpose and promise through the gospel.

When it says, "Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." it's talking about Israel not going from Judaism (faith) to it's purpose and fulfillment -Christianity (faith) -God sending the Savior whom they rejected. They did not submit to the gospel -Rom 10:16.

When it says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." it's not about position (that's a different Greek word for made). Made there means cause to be, so righteous living believers are the result of Him fulfilling His purpose and promise after such a long time of passing over sin -2Co 5:15-17.

When it says, "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" again it is through God sending His Son after such a long time of passing over sin. So it's....'to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through God sending His Son after such a long time of passing over sin.'

I do not understand how people can believe we have this precious faith, these great and precious promises, everything pertaining to life and godliness, life abundant, and the accuser has been cast down, and think Satan can make them feel bad. I just don't get it. God did all this to leave you in the same boat as those in the OT, when scripture tells us it wasn't even true then even true because we have Job who had a hedge about him and Satan couldn't touch him? I just don't get it.

Christinme
Oct 14th 2015, 10:06 AM
You're missing the point. Who is Satan talking to? God or us? Is he before God or before us? I have drilled this point home from the beginning yet people wanna keep saying he's talking to us. I don't get that.Here (in Job) he is before God ... and Revelation 10:12 he is thrown down so he isn't before God anymore accusing us day and night ... however that doesn't mean he isn't still accusing us anymore ... it's just that he isn't doing it before God anymore.

Christinme
Oct 14th 2015, 10:10 AM
What if a believer has already repented and been forgiven by God?What about it are you asking? Sorry I'm not getting what you are asking this to in reference to my post.

Christinme
Oct 14th 2015, 11:16 AM
After re-reading this, I have to ask how you came to this conclusion? I'm not seeing anything like this. I see Satan saying, if I could touch him I could make him sin. That's very different.OK this is what you quoted and are asking about:
Well when satan said before God that Job only worshipped God because of the things God did for himHere is where I see satan saying that before God the part I underlined:

Job 1:7-12 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

That to me is saying that "satan said before God that Job only worshiped God because of the things God did for him".

------------


Concerning the topic, no doubt Peter had this passage in mind
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

when he said
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:I agree with you that that is where Peter got that from.



Why? Satan appeared before God to accuse man to God, but God said there was a man he could not accuse -Job.But here you said:


and who was accused there? God or Job? See, people think this is about the believer but it's really about Satan accusing God for being unjust. ...

Get it?
I think both were being accused by satan ... he is an equal opportunity accuser ...So I guess you are agreeing with me that satan was accusing both ...

------------


Peter says the same should be true for Christians, and that if it is true, like Job you are protected because you "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony".

God's plan to have a lower than Satan/angel creature have faith in Him in the face of Satan/angels who did not, has always been Satan's target. This is what I was getting at earlier -Rev 12:10 declares Rom 3:26.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested....
......
Rom 3:25 .....to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just
God is Just -Rom 3:4, 26, yet while Satan and his followers suffered consequences for their sin, God was accused of being unjust every time Satan said to God (not man) -look at their sin -Rom 3:25-26, Job 1, Rev 12. This was happening constantly -"day and night". Now, a man created lower than Satan/angels has come and never sinned, and Rev 12:10 ........Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The idea that believers walking with God are subject to Satan is contrary to Job 1, Rev 12, Rom 3, and all scripture. I don't agree with all you write above. Let's look at what Peter wrote:

1 Peter 5:6-10 6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, 7 casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. 8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. 10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

First there are things we must do to resist the devil, second we will still suffer because of the work of the devil, third after suffering "Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you." So as of yet we are not free of the works of the devil ... and if we don't resist the devil, he can devour us ... so there are certain things we are to do to OVERCOME (the "letters" in the beginning of Revelations spells some of that out also).



I do not understand how people can believe we have this precious faith, these great and precious promises, everything pertaining to life and godliness, life abundant, and the accuser has been cast down, and think Satan can make them feel bad. I just don't get it. God did all this to leave you in the same boat as those in the OT, when scripture tells us it wasn't even true then even true because we have Job who had a hedge about him and Satan couldn't touch him? I just don't get it.I don't see that we have a hedge about us like Job does ... most the apostles were crucified or killed some other way ... and Job when he had the hedge NO HARM CAME TO him and his house and all that he has, and when the hedge was partially removed then satan could still not touch Job's own body. Then satan went back and the hedge was further removed where satan could touch his body but not take his life. So no I don't see a hedge around us like Job had. Not at all.

All that said we can count for joy when these things do happen to us (James 1). However not everyone is as "strong" as others and and sometimes even the "strong" are weak ... when someone is needs help we need to build them up and encourage them and help them see the promises.

Noeb
Oct 14th 2015, 12:36 PM
Here (in Job) he is before God ... and Revelation 10:12 he is thrown down so he isn't before God anymore accusing us day and night ... however that doesn't mean he isn't still accusing us anymore ... it's just that he isn't doing it before God anymore.So you assume, without scripture, he is before us now, accusing? What good is that since we're not the judge?

Noeb
Oct 14th 2015, 12:46 PM
So I guess you are agreeing with me that satan was accusing both ... was satan talking to the judge or the accused? *sigh




I don't see that we have a hedge about us like Job does ... most the apostles were crucified or killed some other way
Job wasn't preaching the gospel, and what does this have to do with him talking to us or making us feel guilty?

Christinme
Oct 14th 2015, 01:12 PM
So you assume, without scripture, he is before us now, accusing? What good is that since we're not the judge?What is he doing now ... seeing who he can devour ... and why are we told what to do so he doesn't devour us?



was satan talking to the judge or the accused? *sighThat sigh is not necessary ... you yourself said satan was accusing God of not being fair ... so you tell me ...



Job wasn't preaching the gospel, and what does this have to do with him talking to us or making us feel guilty?It has to do with what you posted. You said we have a hedge like Job ... however I don't see that we do ... the apostles aren't alone many times/most times when we stand up for God and the gospel we will be attacked by those being misled ...

Christinme
Oct 14th 2015, 01:29 PM
And concerning 2 Corinthians 12 and Paul and the thorn ... I'm not thinking this is a physical ailment but more tending to believe that it is something that is a constant reminder of him having persecuted Christians (when he was in the flesh). And that God is allowing this to remind him so that he doesn't become conceited with all that God is doing connected with Paul.

keck553
Oct 14th 2015, 01:37 PM
Revelation 12:10..... the accuser.... before our God day and night.

How do they know satan's accusing them?

keck553
Oct 14th 2015, 01:39 PM
Is that an automatic or do believers have to ask God for it?

ask God for what? In this context Repemtence is something we do, forgiveness is something He does.

jsnbd
Oct 14th 2015, 02:22 PM
Noeb, The answer to that has already been given in post#55 on pg 4. :pp


well, it's a long post and many things agree with me, others don't, so you'll have to be more specific. Also, there's three questions in my post so which one are you talking about? Should I assume the first?

Yes. The recurrent supposition I see on this thread is that guilt comes from one or both of exclusively two sources. There is another which is very critical to discern, first.

Oh Yeah! there is something I forgot to say. I do pray that we are not looking for an answer here which agrees with you or me or anyone else but God, first.

Christinme
Oct 14th 2015, 02:58 PM
Yes. The recurrent supposition I see on this thread is that guilt comes from one or both of exclusively two sources. There is another which is very critical to discern, first.And that other source would be ourselves I do believe ... having said that I believe ourselves either line up with what God says or what satan says!

Noeb
Oct 14th 2015, 04:29 PM
How do they know satan's accusing them?who's they?

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven

Noeb
Oct 14th 2015, 06:03 PM
Yes. The recurrent supposition I see on this thread is that guilt comes from one or both of exclusively two sources. There is another which is very critical to discern, first.Well I have made this point throughout the thread

"The problem is the individuals wrong theology and faith. A lot of things are credited to Satan that belong to the individual."

Noeb
Oct 14th 2015, 08:06 PM
What is he doing now ... seeing who he can devour ... and why are we told what to do so he doesn't devour us?completely unrelated. When he was talking to God it didn't make anyone feel guilty, and whether or not one thinks he does it now, there's no scripture that he make us feel guilty.



That sigh is not necessary ... you yourself said satan was accusing God of not being fair ... so you tell me ... I did. Satan was not making the accused feel guilty.



It has to do with what you posted. You said we have a hedge like Job ... however I don't see that we do ... the apostles aren't alone many times/most times when we stand up for God and the gospel we will be attacked by those being misled ...is everyone an apostle? Is everyone dying daily to spread the gospel? Someone is on the receiving end of life.

2 Corinthians 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

But again, 1Peter 5:8 -10 doesn't say anything about Satan making anyone feel guilty. Bad stuff happening can be attributed to him when appropriate, but it's not a given except in a parabolic sense.

keck553
Oct 15th 2015, 01:11 AM
who's they?

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven

Sorry, somehow I got this mixed up with Rev 6:10. You're right.

Still my main point was human accusers doing satan's works, but I guess that's been lost in all these pages....

Noeb
Oct 15th 2015, 01:45 AM
Sorry, somehow I got this mixed up with Rev 6:10. You're right.

Still my main point was human accusers doing satan's works, but I guess that's been lost in all these pages....
I don't think it's been lost. Parabolic use of Satan has been mentioned several times. I just did today.

Christinme
Oct 15th 2015, 09:24 AM
completely unrelated.I don't think it's completely unrelated that the devil is walking around seeing who he can devour and we are given instructions so as not to be devoured ... if it wasn't possible for us to be devoured by him than we wouldn't need instructions.



is everyone an apostle? Is everyone dying daily to spread the gospel? Someone is on the receiving end of life.

2 Corinthians 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

But again, 1Peter 5:8 -10 doesn't say anything about Satan making anyone feel guilty. Bad stuff happening can be attributed to him when appropriate, but it's not a given except in a parabolic sense.Even if people aren't an apostle they can be living examples of Christ and then can be attacked. They can be attacked for their honesty or all types of things. And satan or his minions can be speaking to other people and through other people and if a person is vulnerable at that time it may make them feel bad ... otherwise why do we need instructions as to not be devoured. And if a person is vulnerable and not following the instructions, satan or his minions may can speak directly to them ... otherwise why do we need instructions as to not be devoured. And yes it can be our own mind ... but as I said we are either hearing God or hearing what is not of God and that is the adversary whether it is satan, his minions or ourselves. At that time if we are in our own mind speaking against the truth of God then we are ourselves acting as a minion of satan ... we have forgotten we are a new creation and are acting as if still the old creation (and the old creation was a minion of satan).

So I see two types of "conversations" that can be "manifestations" of "satan" ... one where we excuse ourselves or two where we condemn ourselves with hopelessness that we can never overcome some sin. Either "conversation" would be a "message" of "satan" and not be from God.

Noeb
Oct 15th 2015, 05:39 PM
I don't think it's completely unrelated that the devil is walking around seeing who he can devour

Then how is it related to the OP?....condemnation/guilt from Satan?

Noeb
Oct 15th 2015, 05:43 PM
Even if people aren't an apostle they can be living examples of Christ and then can be attacked. They can be attacked for their honesty or all types of things. And satan or his minions can be speaking to other people and through other people and if a person is vulnerable at that time it may make them feel bad ... otherwise why do we need instructions as to not be devoured. And if a person is vulnerable and not following the instructions, satan or his minions may can speak directly to them ... otherwise why do we need instructions as to not be devoured. And yes it can be our own mind ... but as I said we are either hearing God or hearing what is not of God and that is the adversary whether it is satan, his minions or ourselves. At that time if we are in our own mind speaking against the truth of God then we are ourselves acting as a minion of satan ... we have forgotten we are a new creation and are acting as if still the old creation (and the old creation was a minion of satan).

So I see two types of "conversations" that can be "manifestations" of "satan" ... one where we excuse ourselves or two where we condemn ourselves with hopelessness that we can never overcome some sin. Either "conversation" would be a "message" of "satan" and not be from God.I don't think anyone has argued against the parabolic sense.

Christinme
Oct 15th 2015, 08:35 PM
I don't think anyone has argued against the parabolic sense.Well if a person is open to it in the parabolic sense well then I would think they would also be open to it in the literal sense.



Then how is it related to the OP?....condemnation/guilt from Satan?Can they be open to condemnation/guilt from their own mind or from another person ... well if so then they can be open to the devil also doing this. Do you think that 1 Peter 5 is not literally referring to devil but is parabolic?

rom826
Oct 15th 2015, 11:18 PM
ask God for what? In this context Repemtence is something we do, forgiveness is something He does.
I john 1:8

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

rom826
Oct 15th 2015, 11:30 PM
if they have repented and are forgiven why are they still feeling guilt?Because we have an adversary, the devil. He has not been cast into the lake of fire yet.


Satan more powerful that God?
Not too sure why you would ask something like that. Of course not. Just because the devil might get the better of the believer at times does not make the devil more powerful than God. I would rather pray for that believer than to tear down and judge.

]


You really think Satan can make us feel guilty?
Absolutely. I do believe he can and does bring sins to the believer's mind that the believer has repented of and already been forgiven by God.


No. The problem is the individuals wrong theology and faith. A lot of things are credited to Satan that belong to the individual.

I am just curious about something. Do you believe Satan and his demons are real beings?

rom826
Oct 15th 2015, 11:57 PM
What about it are you asking? Sorry I'm not getting what you are asking this to in reference to my post.

You said only "false" accusations are from Satan. That why I asked what if a believer has already repented and been forgiven? I would say in that case, even though the accusation is true, it is still from Satan.

jsnbd
Oct 16th 2015, 10:36 AM
Well I have made this point throughout the thread

"The problem is the individuals wrong theology and faith. A lot of things are credited to Satan that belong to the individual."
That is true and I apologize for not catching you making this point. This is a long thread and I came upon it late in its development. I only skimmed through to when I posted. But also on my line of though as posed in post#55, a person's feelings of guilt can have nothing to do with theology or faith and even some of those who think that they do are actually are having them flood in from a personal psychological process usually developed/conditioned in childhood. In some cases the mind needs to be medically healed first before any contemplation of spiritual (theological/faith) sources of guilt, IMO.

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 12:03 PM
Well if a person is open to it in the parabolic sense well then I would think they would also be open to it in the literal sense.Why? We're talking about Satan making believers feel guilty. Satan is used as a father of those that do evil. He's never said to have directly made anyone feel guilty.



Can they be open to condemnation/guilt from their own mind or from another person ... well if so then they can be open to the devil also doing this. Do you think that 1 Peter 5 is not literally referring to devil but is parabolic?Job 1 and 1 Peter 5 are not about Satan making anyone feel guilty and they are not parabolic. So do you think if our heart condemn us God is greater, but if Satan does we're devoured? Doesn't make any sense.

Christinme
Oct 16th 2015, 12:11 PM
Why? We're talking about Satan making believers feel guilty. Satan is used as a father of those that do evil. He's never said to have directly made anyone feel guilty.Has he been said to directly do anything to anyone besides I guess Eve and Job and Jesus? Anyways I think it is a possibility.



Job 1 and 1 Peter 5 are not about Satan making anyone feel guilty and they are not parabolic. So do you think if our heart condemn us God is greater, but if Satan does we're devoured? Doesn't make any sense.I understand that ... Job 1 and 1 Peter 5 are not about Satan making anyone feel guilty and ok glad to hear that you do not believe they are parabolic. So what do you think Satan does now? If our heart condemns us yes God is greater and if satan condemns us yes God is greater HOWEVER that doesn't mean if our heart condemns us we aren't feeling condemned and if satan condemns us that we aren't feeling condemned HOWEVER we can turn to God or maybe more apply REMEMBER we are turned to God and escape both the condemnation of our heart and/or satan.

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 12:11 PM
Because we have an adversary, the devil. He has not been cast into the lake of fire yet.Adversary verses don't have anything to do with making us feel guilty.



Not too sure why you would ask something like that.Rhetorical....



Of course not. Just because the devil might get the better of the believer at times does not make the devil more powerful than God.The spreading of the gospel and proper operation of the church can be hindered by our opponent, but there's no scripture of him making us feel bad.



Absolutely. I do believe he can and does bring sins to the believer's mind that the believer has repented of and already been forgiven by God.No scripture has been given for this.



I am just curious about something. Do you believe Satan and his demons are real beings?It would be impossible to have said all I have and not believe they are real.

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 12:14 PM
That is true and I apologize for not catching you making this point. This is a long thread and I came upon it late in its development. I only skimmed through to when I posted. But also on my line of though as posed in post#55, a person's feelings of guilt can have nothing to do with theology or faith and even some of those who think that they do are actually are having them flood in from a personal psychological process usually developed/conditioned in childhood. In some cases the mind needs to be medically healed first before any contemplation of spiritual (theological/faith) sources of guilt, IMO.I'd rather stick with the norm that get off on the fringes. Thank you for making the point.

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 12:27 PM
Has he been said to directly do anything to anyone?no



I understand that ... Job 1 and 1 Peter 5 are not about Satan making anyone feel guilty and ok glad to hear that you do not believe they are parabolic. So what do you think Satan does now?He is our opponent in the work of God.



If our heart condemns us yes God is greater and if satan condemns us yes God is greater HOWEVER that doesn't mean if our heart condemns us we aren't feeling condemned and if satan condemns us that we aren't feeling condemned HOWEVER we can turn to God or maybe more apply REMEMBER we are turned to God and escape both the condemnation of our heart and/or satan.Well, if Satan still accuses us it's before God not before us, so we wouldn't know about it. If we feel condemned we need to find out why and stop blaming someone else.

Christinme
Oct 16th 2015, 12:51 PM
noOK so what do you think 1 Peter 5 means if it isn't parabolic "your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." ... your understanding probably ties in with the next statement of yours and my comment. I personally don't think it only refers to spreading the Gospel because it's being said to all in response to how they should be among each other.



He is our opponent in the work of God.Further explanation please.



If we feel condemned we need to find out why and stop blaming someone else.Well that's always great advice ... because whether satan or anyone else is or isn't a part of it, it's still up to us to resolve it.

rom826
Oct 16th 2015, 01:49 PM
Adversary verses don't have anything to do with making us feel guilty.


Rhetorical....


The spreading of the gospel and proper operation of the church can be hindered by our opponent, but there's no scripture of him making us feel bad.

.

You are really hung up on this "making us feel bad thing", aren't you? I am not sure why.


No scripture has been given for this.

Since you are so hung up on the "making us feel bad" thing and are so intent on making this thread go in that direction, please show me scripture that says Satan never does so.


It would be impossible to have said all I have and not believe they are real.

most of your posts in this thread give me the indication you do not believe they are real.

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 04:11 PM
It's your direction and OP rom826

rom826
Oct 16th 2015, 04:52 PM
It's your direction and OP rom826 I read my OP again. Never said anything about "feeling bad".

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 05:24 PM
What then is the other of the two to discern? One is conviction, what's the other? There were 7 posts before mine that went that direction, including your own. Like Slug1 said, "It will simply boil down to semantics and what terms or terminology people choose to use, based on their particular whatevers" so call it guilt, being down, condemnation, who cares. Satan cannot make you feel, perceive, think, any way you don't wanna

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 05:30 PM
Oh, and after I did post, disagreeing with all before me, you strongly disagreed.

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 05:36 PM
OK
Sorry, that should have been yes, not no. Also, as already pointed out, directly doesn't mean him but also his minions.

Christinme
Oct 16th 2015, 06:19 PM
Sorry, that should have been yes, not no. Also, as already pointed out, directly doesn't mean him but also his minions.So directly doesn't mean him at all and only his minions OR doesn't mean him only but means also his minions???

Noeb
Oct 16th 2015, 08:49 PM
Well, I did say also.

keck553
Oct 16th 2015, 09:56 PM
I john 1:8

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Amen.

Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.

Noeb
Oct 17th 2015, 01:42 AM
OK so what do you think 1 Peter 5 means........."your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."

Further explanation please.1 Peter 5:7-9 means the same as Job Job 1:7 and Job 2:2. He wasn't making people feel guilty. They had their God given nature, Law, and the Spirit for that. He was devouring people and sought to continue. That's the context, and he said he couldn't do that with Job. Naturally Peter cited this with the same usage, not another. That's what he wanted, to devour, not make Job feel guilty, because that's what he did when given the chance. It doesn't describe him as a whispering spirit or something but a lion, an actual earthy beasts with deadly earthy effect. It doesn't say he wanted to whisper condemnation in anyone's ear, it's says he sought to do what he did to Job. Devour. That's what he did with Job when he got the chance, and that's what Peter describes. Peter is addressing "strangers scattered" because of persecution and the "same afflictions" were happening to Christians everywhere. This was during the growth of the infant Church into 'fruit that would remain' and Satan's opposition was high. I can't say Peter had feeling guilty in mind with good conscience. I've must understand in context and history.



I personally don't think it only refers to spreading the Gospel because it's being said to all in response to how they should be among each other.That ends with verse 5, and you don't think they were persecuted for the gospel? Seriously?

Christinme
Oct 17th 2015, 08:24 AM
1 Peter 5:7-9 means the same as Job Job 1:7 and Job 2:2. He wasn't making people feel guilty. They had their God given nature, Law, and the Spirit for that. He was devouring people and sought to continue. That's the context, and he said he couldn't do that with Job. Naturally Peter cited this with the same usage, not another. That's what he wanted, to devour, not make Job feel guilty, because that's what he did when given the chance. It doesn't describe him as a whispering spirit or something but a lion, an actual earthy beasts with deadly earthy effect. It doesn't say he wanted to whisper condemnation in anyone's ear, it's says he sought to do what he did to Job. Devour. That's what he did with Job when he got the chance, and that's what Peter describes. Peter is addressing "strangers scattered" because of persecution and the "same afflictions" were happening to Christians everywhere. This was during the growth of the infant Church into 'fruit that would remain' and Satan's opposition was high. I can't say Peter had feeling guilty in mind with good conscience. I've must understand in context and history.He said he couldn't do it with Job BECAUSE of the hedge and then God brought down the hedge so satan could attempt to devour Job. And what satan was doing was attempting to get Job to curse God and then be guilty. And the story of Job is not devoid of satan's minions (supposed friends of Job) trying to make Job admit guilt (feel guilty).

Moving on to 1 Peter 5 as I state below I don't see verse 5 starting a new subject matter. The whole letter is about them being Holy and encouraging them on how to be Holy so that they will be seen as a Holy people. And the whole letter is instructions on how to do this concluded with the need being BECAUSE the devil is there trying to devour them. And I would say that means he is there wanting to devour them through their having sinned.



That ends with verse 5, and you don't think they were persecuted for the gospel? Seriously?Do you see that I said I don't think it ONLY refers to spreading the Gospel ... how do you take that to mean I don't think they were persecuted for the gospel??? And even if I said it doesn't refer to the gospel that doesn't mean I think they weren't persecuted for the gospel, just that that isn't what is being discussed there. And I see verse 5 moving right into verse 6 a continuation and even further. Verse 5 talks about humbling and verse 6 talks about humbling ... I don't see a change in subject from verse 5 to 6.

EDIT:I went and looked at commentaries and I don't see any saying 1 Peter 5:8 refers to spreading the Gospel but getting snared in sin. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/5-8.htm

ProDeo
Oct 17th 2015, 10:27 AM
John 16:8 says
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The bible also calls our adversary the devil our accuser

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

In your daily walk, how do you discern between the two and what is going on?

I listen to the tone setting.

Jac 3-17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

When it's strong and negative condemnation it usually comes from my not so mature conscience.

BTW, Rev 12:10 doesn't say the devil is manipulating our minds, it states the devil is accusing us before God, like he did with Job.

ProDeo
Oct 17th 2015, 10:37 AM
But also on my line of though as posed in post#55, a person's feelings of guilt can have nothing to do with theology or faith and even some of those who think that they do are actually are having them flood in from a personal psychological process usually developed/conditioned in childhood. In some cases the mind needs to be medically healed first before any contemplation of spiritual (theological/faith) sources of guilt, IMO.

:thumbsup:
.

Noeb
Oct 17th 2015, 04:22 PM
satan's minions (supposed friends of Job)Minions are fallen angels/demons, whatever etc. They work through people but lets not make assumptions as to when they did or didn't. The pov that everything is either by God or Satan isn't established by scripture. I believe you hold this view or similar? If so, it would explain why we disagree so much here.



The whole letter is about them being Holy and encouraging them on how to be Holy so that they will be seen as a Holy people.No one disputed this. What you said was, "how they should be among each other" as it says "subject one to another". Where is this in verses 7-9? I guess you could adopt a corporate view here, and that would be fine, but it doesn't remove the level of personal responsibility spoken.



And the whole letter is instructions on how to do this concluded with the need being BECAUSE the devil is there trying to devour them. And I would say that means he is there wanting to devour them through their having sinned.Sure. This is "Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (context persecution, not making you feel guilty) which is why it says, "resist stedfast in the faith" because "after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you". Satan failed with Job, and so here in 1 Peter 5 is supposed to fail with us, no matter what we allow him to throw at us because of sin. Sin may allow him to attempt to devour us, otherwise he cannot touch us......

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (hedge)

.......but we are to endure (resist stedfast in the faith) to the end.

Again, the point here pertaining to the OP is guilt, which you don't find in the text or author intent, because we know what example he used -Job. Satan tried to get Job to give up on God, not make him feel guilty, and that's what Peter says, "resist stedfast in the faith" because "after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you".

People, in fact rom826 did it earlier, take
2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

out of context and say, see there, guilt! No. That's not at all what Paul said. This believer was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, not to be devoured but so that he not be devoured (spirit saved). Because he repented Paul says to quickly restore the man, bringing him back into the hedge, so that he not continue to be targeted by the opponent. Could guilt play a part in someone giving up the faith? Sure, but does that mean Satan makes the individual feel guilty? No. The individual does it to themselves for a long list of reasons. We could list many but none of them can be that Satan has the ability to make a believer with the Spirit feel guilty because there's simply no scripture for it. Arguing from silence doesn't cut it. The position that scripture doesn't say Satan can't make believers with the Spirit feel guilty holds no weight.



EDIT:I went and looked at commentaries and I don't see any saying 1 Peter 5:8 refers to spreading the Gospel but getting snared in sin. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/5-8.htmWell, I said "persecuted for the gospel".....and there's no way to separate the two. People are not persecuted for being sinners, believers are persecuted for living in the kingdom Satan's opposes. Again, our opponent has his kingdom and we have ours (Rev 12:10; Col 1:13), and persecution is the result of Satan and evil men in the world. Some may attribute persecution from evil men parabolically to Satan and that's fine, because Satan is their father, and that's proper biblical usage. After reading the commentaries it seems they correctly attribute the persecution to both for the same reason -the gospel, and how could it be anything else? Historically, both before and at the time, very bad things in general that happened were also parabollically attributed to Satan.

Ellicot
"St. Peter, however, is not calling attention to the fact that Satan is always prowling about, but he warns the sleeping shepherds that he is especially doing so now. This season of persecution was just his time for picking off one here and another there."

Barnes
"The particular thing referred to here, doubtless, is persecution, resembling in its terrors a roaring lion."

JFB
"He counteracts the Gospel and its agents."

Gill
"steadfast in the faith; both in the doctrine of faith, which Satan endeavours to remove from, or cause to stagger in; and in the grace of faith, exercising it on the promises of God, and his perfections, particularly his power and faithfulness concerned in them, and in the blood, righteousness, sacrifice, and person of Christ, which faith is capable of making use of, as a shield, to good purpose, against all the fiery darts of Satan; as also in a profession of faith, which, as it should be held fast without wavering, and which the devil is very busy to keep persons from making, or to cause them to drop it when they have made it, by violent suggestions, strong temptations, and a flood of reproaches and persecutions; all which should be disregarded:
......same afflictions" and trials which others have been exercised with in all ages: the same which the fraternity, or "brotherhood", as the word signifies"

Christinme
Oct 18th 2015, 06:25 PM
Minions are fallen angels/demons, whatever etc. They work through people but lets not make assumptions as to when they did or didn't. The pov that everything is either by God or Satan isn't established by scripture. I believe you hold this view or similar? If so, it would explain why we disagree so much here.I believe we either hold the view of God and then stand with God or hold an opposing view/adversary view at least concerning spiritual matters. Not like what kind of ice cream flavor is the most yummy. I think this is a Lutheran concept ... that everything concerning spiritual matters are of God OR not of God (adversarial of God) ... and maybe more denominations/groups hold this concept ... I don't really know ... it's just what my understanding is ...



No one disputed this. What you said was, "how they should be among each other" as it says "subject one to another". Where is this in verses 7-9? I guess you could adopt a corporate view here, and that would be fine, but it doesn't remove the level of personal responsibility spoken.Well you said there was a change from verse 5 to 6 when to me the whole letter was speaking about the same thing. Do you want to take chapter 5:7-9 out from it??? I don't think it is just corporate ... and NOTHING REMOVES the level of personal responsibility ... where have you or do you see me say that ... ever??? ??? ??? We are personally responsible to not fall to the tricks of satan ... or satan's minions ... or our own mind ... :)



Well, I said "persecuted for the gospel".....and there's no way to separate the two. People are not persecuted for being sinners, believers are persecuted for living in the kingdom Satan's opposes. Again, our opponent has his kingdom and we have ours (Rev 12:10; Col 1:13), and persecution is the result of Satan and evil men in the world. Some may attribute persecution from evil men parabolically to Satan and that's fine, because Satan is their father, and that's proper biblical usage. After reading the commentaries it seems they correctly attribute the persecution to both for the same reason -the gospel, and how could it be anything else? Historically, both before and at the time, very bad things in general that happened were also parabollically attributed to Satan.

Ellicot
"St. Peter, however, is not calling attention to the fact that Satan is always prowling about, but he warns the sleeping shepherds that he is especially doing so now. This season of persecution was just his time for picking off one here and another there."

Barnes
"The particular thing referred to here, doubtless, is persecution, resembling in its terrors a roaring lion."

JFB
"He counteracts the Gospel and its agents."

Gill
"steadfast in the faith; both in the doctrine of faith, which Satan endeavours to remove from, or cause to stagger in; and in the grace of faith, exercising it on the promises of God, and his perfections, particularly his power and faithfulness concerned in them, and in the blood, righteousness, sacrifice, and person of Christ, which faith is capable of making use of, as a shield, to good purpose, against all the fiery darts of Satan; as also in a profession of faith, which, as it should be held fast without wavering, and which the devil is very busy to keep persons from making, or to cause them to drop it when they have made it, by violent suggestions, strong temptations, and a flood of reproaches and persecutions; all which should be disregarded:
......same afflictions" and trials which others have been exercised with in all ages: the same which the fraternity, or "brotherhood", as the word signifies"I did say spreading the gospel however I did mean persecution for spreading the gospel (my mistake ... I apologize) and most those little bits you took out from those commentaries where not saying this Scripture referred to persecution for spreading the gospel but said that what this Scripture was talking about was in addition to the persecution for spreading the Gospel ...

Christinme
Oct 18th 2015, 10:19 PM
I believe we either hold the view of God and then stand with God or hold an opposing view/adversary view at least concerning spiritual matters.And I do think there is Scriptural support for this ... like Jesus saying if those who weren't for God were children of the devil ... and Paul saying you are a slave to sin OR a slave to righteousness ... so I do think there is some Scriptural support to this ...