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Aviyah
Oct 20th 2015, 01:29 AM
Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Heb. 10:24-25)

Does this phrase apply only to 1 hour sermons on Sundays?

ChangedByHim
Oct 20th 2015, 01:53 AM
Seems like a setup thread to find reasons not to be active in a local church...

But of course it means more than that.

Aviyah
Oct 20th 2015, 02:15 AM
But of course it means more than that.

Thanks for answering the question.

joined2him
Oct 20th 2015, 03:11 AM
Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Heb. 10:24-25)

Does this phrase apply only to 1 hour sermons on Sundays?

Nope. It also doesn't preclude Sunday morning worship services with other brethren....nor does it necessitate that the assembly be on Sunday mornings.

Reynolds357
Oct 20th 2015, 03:29 AM
Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Heb. 10:24-25)

Does this phrase apply only to 1 hour sermons on Sundays?

I must admit that I personally like the home Bible study groups we used to have better than I like the Sunday morning worship service. I like corporately studying The Word better than I like listening to someone preach a sermon.

Slug1
Oct 20th 2015, 03:31 AM
Nope. It also doesn't preclude Sunday morning worship services with other brethren....nor does it necessitate that the assembly be on Sunday mornings.I agree. We have to take into context other scriptures. Such as these:

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

NONE of this can be accomplished if all a person does is attend church for one hour a week. For a person to "reap" what this is all about, MUST do what the Hebrews 10 verses are all about multiple times a week for multiple hours. Sunday services, prayer services, Bible study, special services, ministry work both IN the church and outside the church. Also, church fellowships such as bbq's, fund raisers, community support, etc. This also includes personal time which can include personal involvement in church activities, such a worship practice when on a worship team or praise dance practice for examples. This also includes that personal time with God, prayer, worship, fasting but while this is very important on a personal level, it's also needed on the corporate level when many or all in a church are fasting and praying for ONE purpose, such as intercessory. Freeing Peter from prison is a great example of a unified Body, together fighting for ONE cause, for one person.

A question I've asked groups of people after raising the example of a unified Body of Christians, ALL praying and interceding for one man... who here belongs to a church Body that has done this for a member of their church, where ALL are fasting and praying together?

Not many ever raise their hand... and thus, many churches are clueless about what Hebrews 10:24-25 is all about.

episkopos
Oct 20th 2015, 01:51 PM
Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Heb. 10:24-25)

Does this phrase apply only to 1 hour sermons on Sundays?

It is the reality of an historic repetitive trend that people tend to want to interpret the bible through the prevalent culture rather than live in a sacrificial and revolutionary way that challenges the culture. The trend in mankind is to absorb the gospel message INTO the culture by making superficial concessions that put a thin veneer of seeming obeisance to the biblical demands. History shows us that when the few radical spiritual ones are killed or die the next wave of would-be believers steer a safer course in order to conform to the world around them rather than suffer the same fate as their predecessors.

Revival is needed in every generation for that very reason. Without a new influx of spiritual life into the church...and the presentation and example of an untarnished vision of the kingdom of God...Christianity soon devolves into a religion just as any other.

Acts 2 remains the expression of what happens when the Holy Spirit comes into the church. Everyone seems to want revival but who can find those willing to pay the price for it? In a culture where things are promised for free there is little stomach for sacrifice of any kind. The gospel message then becomes altered and subordinated to the cultural ambitions of a semi-converted people who clamour for more and more....while doing less and less to agonize and seek in order to find the place where change can begin.


There's nothing new under the sun. We have as a whole remained intact and for the most part undisturbed as a fallen Adamic race in the face of a direct effort by God to bring His creation into the truth and light. We have chosen survival over revival.

joined2him
Oct 20th 2015, 05:30 PM
I agree. We have to take into context other scriptures. Such as these:

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

NONE of this can be accomplished if all a person does is attend church for one hour a week. For a person to "reap" what this is all about, MUST do what the Hebrews 10 verses are all about multiple times a week for multiple hours. Sunday services, prayer services, Bible study, special services, ministry work both IN the church and outside the church. Also, church fellowships such as bbq's, fund raisers, community support, etc. This also includes personal time which can include personal involvement in church activities, such a worship practice when on a worship team or praise dance practice for examples. This also includes that personal time with God, prayer, worship, fasting but while this is very important on a personal level, it's also needed on the corporate level when many or all in a church are fasting and praying for ONE purpose, such as intercessory. Freeing Peter from prison is a great example of a unified Body, together fighting for ONE cause, for one person.

A question I've asked groups of people after raising the example of a unified Body of Christians, ALL praying and interceding for one man... who here belongs to a church Body that has done this for a member of their church, where ALL are fasting and praying together?

Not many ever raise their hand... and thus, many churches are clueless about what Hebrews 10:24-25 is all about.

In my direct observation and experience, fasting is almost unheard of in many Christian assemblies, and "corporate" prayer consists of a single individual "leading" the prayer....i.e., being the only person who prays out loud during an allotted, brief timeslot on the list of programmed activities.

Few will open their mouths to pray aloud themselves when joined with others for a "quick moment of prayer" before the purposed activity for the meeting kicks into gear. When they do, it's often a hurried petition for healing for a friend's coworker's cousin thrice-removed who is battling physical illness.

I've noticed, however, that scheduled activities seem to dominate people's lives, too....and being TOO busy "working in the church" can impede true worship and effective witness in the kingdom. We are to make disciples "as we go"....not "as we schedule another activity where everyone in the local assembly is expected to show up because we will be tabulating attendance."

A lot of quiet time waiting on the Lord is essential in order to hear His voice clearly and redeem the time wisely, I think.

Aviyah
Oct 20th 2015, 07:01 PM
This also includes that personal time with God, prayer, worship, fasting but while this is very important on a personal level, it's also needed on the corporate level when many or all in a church are fasting and praying for ONE purpose, such as intercessory.

So it's about being a part of an assembly rather than going to an assembly (not that they are exclusive).


It is the reality of an historic repetitive trend that people tend to want to interpret the bible through the prevalent culture rather than live in a sacrificial and revolutionary way that challenges the culture. The trend in mankind is to absorb the gospel message INTO the culture by making superficial concessions that put a thin veneer of seeming obeisance to the biblical demands.

What would you say the application of Hebrews 10 looks like apart from cultural traditions and "safety?"

Slug1
Oct 20th 2015, 07:05 PM
So it's about being a part of an assembly rather than going to an assembly (not that they are exclusive).Evidence of being a "part" of an assembly is by attending the assembly and doing one's part.

Take 1 Cor 12 for example. Each person who is a part of the Body is evident by WHAT THEY DO in the Body. God has actually given each member of the Body a gift and that gift can only be utilized when the person is doing their part in attendance of the assembly. The only way to execute their responsibility in fulfilling what part they are... is to attend assembly.

I look at it this way... when a Christian believes they don't have to be a part of any assembly, they are simply being deceived by satan as he attempts to "take" them away and the more he can do this, this is why assemblies are so powerless. satan is actually taking people away from an assembly... people that God is wanting to use in the assembly.

Aviyah
Oct 20th 2015, 07:09 PM
Evidence of being a "part" of an assembly is by attending the assembly and doing one's part. Take 1 Cor 12 for example. Each person who is a part of the Body is evident by WHAT THEY DO in the Body. The only way to execute their responsibility in fulfilling what part they are... is to attend assembly.

Okay. In that case, would you mind defining "assembly?"

Pbminimum
Oct 20th 2015, 07:14 PM
Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Heb. 10:24-25)

Does this phrase apply only to 1 hour sermons on Sundays?

Not only...Church looks different depending on the culture in which you live. We gather 3 times on Sundays, and once on Wednesdays. That's when we "gather". We also "gather" at one meeting point on those days. Our local church. There is nothing wrong with that. We use our gifts to minister to one another, stir up good works among one another, encourage one another, and even rebuke one another. We also gather for prayer and SOME , not all , of us fast. But we also meet during the week in our small group classes. Always communicating, and holding one another accountable. That's what my church looks like.

But I have been in Africa and been in a church of 5 that meets on a front porch of a shanty house and studies the word of God. I have to say, it was good.

The sermon is not what I consider church to be at all. Just a small part of it. Though many look at it as if that is church. WE DON'T GO TO CHURCH. WE ARE THE CHURCH.

always
Oct 20th 2015, 07:24 PM
We are an assembly in our participation here, I enjoy interacting with my bros/sis in Christ, this encourages growth and gives insight as well.

I enjoy my church services which at my particular church is every evening if you wanted to attend that frequently. There is no time more blessed/happier than being in worship with one another.

Those that steer away from interacting with fellow believers I feel are still in a carnal state and have not the true love of Christ

Aviyah
Oct 20th 2015, 07:36 PM
But I have been in Africa and been in a church of 5 that meets on a front porch of a shanty house and studies the word of God. I have to say, it was good. The sermon is not what I consider church to be at all. Just a small part of it. Though many look at it as if that is church. WE DON'T GO TO CHURCH. WE ARE THE CHURCH.

Sounds like a great experience. I think that you can go all the way to parts of Africa and still come together with believers is profound and speaks to "we are the church." :saint:


We are an assembly in our participation here, I enjoy interacting with my bros/sis in Christ, this encourages growth and gives insight as well. I enjoy my church services which at my particular church is every evening if you wanted to attend that frequently. There is no time more blessed/happier than being in worship with one another.

Maybe there are different types of assemblies or "the assembly" is expressed in different ways and for different purposes?

Slug1
Oct 20th 2015, 07:45 PM
Okay. In that case, would you mind defining "assembly?"An assembly begins with this:

Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Reynolds357
Oct 20th 2015, 08:01 PM
Many times I think we put too much emphasis on the Sunday Sermon. I believe that the formal worship service is at times appropriate. I believe we would all grow much more if we spent most of the time dedicated to listening to a sermon and used that time for small group discipleship, small group prayer, and close fellowship. For some reason, everybody thinks we have to have the Sunday sermon.

always
Oct 20th 2015, 08:40 PM
Many times I think we put too much emphasis on the Sunday Sermon. I believe that the formal worship service is at times appropriate. I believe we would all grow much more if we spent most of the time dedicated to listening to a sermon and used that time for small group discipleship, small group prayer, and close fellowship. For some reason, everybody thinks we have to have the Sunday sermon.


So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God... how can we hear if we don't have a preacher.

however lets go further, and discuss, study, show ourselves approved, a workman not to be ashamed

Pbminimum
Oct 20th 2015, 09:04 PM
Many times I think we put too much emphasis on the Sunday Sermon. I believe that the formal worship service is at times appropriate. I believe we would all grow much more if we spent most of the time dedicated to listening to a sermon and used that time for small group discipleship, small group prayer, and close fellowship. For some reason, everybody thinks we have to have the Sunday sermon.

I understand what you mean. If all you get is a one hour sermon from your church in a week, you are missing out. That isn't belittling the Sermon that God has put on his pastors heart , however. It's just a small part of a big body.

I have to say this though...Man I love my church family. I do. I understand why Jesus left His church for us. I couldn't imagine what life would be like without my church family. And God gets the glory.

I tell people when I'm witnessing to them that if I were asked to leave the church, they would have to drag me out of there. If they locked me out, I would climb in a window. This is all in jest of course. But I do love so love the bride of Christ. Thank you Jesus for your church.

Reynolds357
Oct 20th 2015, 11:16 PM
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God... how can we hear if we don't have a preacher.

however lets go further, and discuss, study, show ourselves approved, a workman not to be ashamed

Small group Bible study has a teacher. It is an interactive form of teaching instead of an auditorium form of listening to a lecture. To set some background, I do not get a lot out of listening to a lecturer, whether it be a teacher, professor, or a preacher. For me to learn, I need interaction.

Reynolds357
Oct 20th 2015, 11:17 PM
I understand what you mean. If all you get is a one hour sermon from your church in a week, you are missing out. That isn't belittling the Sermon that God has put on his pastors heart , however. It's just a small part of a big body.

I have to say this though...Man I love my church family. I do. I understand why Jesus left His church for us. I couldn't imagine what life would be like without my church family. And God gets the glory.

I tell people when I'm witnessing to them that if I were asked to leave the church, they would have to drag me out of there. If they locked me out, I would climb in a window. This is all in jest of course. But I do love so love the bride of Christ. Thank you Jesus for your church.
I love my church family as well. That family relationship is nourished better in small groups than it is in auditoriums.

episkopos
Oct 21st 2015, 12:23 PM
What would you say the application of Hebrews 10 looks like apart from cultural traditions and "safety?"



A more or less constant revival among the brethren. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Who is influencing whom?

episkopos
Oct 21st 2015, 12:29 PM
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God... how can we hear if we don't have a preacher.


The verse in question is about hearing directly from God. Non-believers need a preacher since they are not attuned to hearing directly from God. But the practice of a continued preaching (to the erstwhile converted) to those who are supposed to be led by the Spirit is misguided in that it doesn't encourage growth in relationship.

It is like...give a man a fish and he will eat for one day...but teach a man to fish...

Preaching then is for unbelievers.
Teaching is for the brethren who lack instruction...and this in a dialogue form (dialogos).

For the more mature brethren we have the spiritual gifts like prophesying for edification.

So as we mature in Christ we come more and more under the direct control of the Spirit...taught by the Lord directly. That is how the church is built up...in the Spirit.

always
Oct 21st 2015, 04:02 PM
The verse in question is about hearing directly from God. Non-believers need a preacher since they are not attuned to hearing directly from God. But the practice of a continued preaching (to the erstwhile converted) to those who are supposed to be led by the Spirit is misguided in that it doesn't encourage growth in relationship.

It is like...give a man a fish and he will eat for one day...but teach a man to fish...

Preaching then is for unbelievers.Teaching is for the brethren who lack instruction...and this in a dialogue form (dialogos).

For the more mature brethren we have the spiritual gifts like prophesying for edification.

So as we mature in Christ we come more and more under the direct control of the Spirit...taught by the Lord directly. That is how the church is built up...in the Spirit.

I don't believe and have never seen in scripture where one can become, beyond hearing the Word of God? ........ if that is what I'm understanding correctly, you are saying? I know as I have grown, hearing a lesson taught, at one point in my life can have a whole different meaning at a different point in my life.

I'm sure Jesus' sermons never got old to the disciples.....however that was God speaking directly to them, Hmmmm

Slug1
Oct 21st 2015, 04:34 PM
So as we mature in Christ we come more and more under the direct control of the Spirit...taught by the Lord directly. That is how the church is built up...in the Spirit.It is unfortunate that for some "mature" Christians, the more mature they are, the less of the Holy Spirit is needed in their life. To the point, a church full of such maturity, don't allow the spiritual gifts like prophecy, to operate.

awestruckchild
Oct 21st 2015, 08:01 PM
It is unfortunate that for some "mature" Christians, the more mature they are, the less of the Holy Spirit is needed in their life. To the point, a church full of such maturity, don't allow the spiritual gifts like prophecy, to operate.

This doesn't make sense to me. It was only as I matured in my faith that I DID realize how utterly I needed the Holy Spirit...

Slug1
Oct 21st 2015, 08:19 PM
This doesn't make sense to me. It was only as I matured in my faith that I DID realize how utterly I needed the Holy Spirit...Doesn't make sense to me either as I too know that as I've matured over the years, I am more reliant on the Holy Spirit.

But... over the years, I have met both in person and through this forum, Christians who will state their faith is sufficient and the Holy Spirit doesn't have to move supernaturally, such as using a person to give a prophetic word (gift of prophecy in action). They will say this to justify that the Holy Spirit has never used anyone in their church... because they are all mature and don't NEED God to act supernaturally.

always
Oct 21st 2015, 08:53 PM
Doesn't make sense to me either as I too know that as I've matured over the years, I am more reliant on the Holy Spirit.

But... over the years, I have met both in person and through this forum, Christians who will state their faith is sufficient and the Holy Spirit doesn't have to move supernaturally, such as using a person to give a prophetic word (gift of prophecy in action). They will say this to justify that the Holy Spirit has never used anyone in their church... because they are all mature and don't NEED God to act supernaturally.

That is because the preacher they were hearing from was not filled with the Holy Spirit, faith comes by hearing, I don't think we ever mature past that, when we do, we go home

awestruckchild
Oct 21st 2015, 09:33 PM
Ah, I getcha,' now!

episkopos
Oct 21st 2015, 11:46 PM
I don't believe and have never seen in scripture where one can become, beyond hearing the Word of God? ........ if that is what I'm understanding correctly, you are saying? I know as I have grown, hearing a lesson taught, at one point in my life can have a whole different meaning at a different point in my life.

I'm sure Jesus' sermons never got old to the disciples.....however that was God speaking directly to them, Hmmmm


Can Jesus be replaced by bible readings? Hmmm!

episkopos
Oct 21st 2015, 11:49 PM
It is unfortunate that for some "mature" Christians, the more mature they are, the less of the Holy Spirit is needed in their life. To the point, a church full of such maturity, don't allow the spiritual gifts like prophecy, to operate.

I am reminded of the movie called "the Princess Bride" where Inigo Montoya says "I do not think it means what you think it means" ;) (great movie BTW)


Unfortunately "maturity" has largely lost it's spiritual nature and become more like a "settled" set of beliefs based on years and years.. of years and years...but without actual union with God.

Slug1
Oct 22nd 2015, 01:13 PM
I am reminded of the movie called "the Princess Bride" where Inigo Montoya says "I do not think it means what you think it means" ;) (great movie BTW)


Unfortunately "maturity" has largely lost it's spiritual nature and become more like a "settled" set of beliefs based on years and years.. of years and years...but without actual union with God.I also feel many Christians confuse "veteran" Christians with the term mature Christians. Seems that some Christians who sit in the pew every Sunday for 20+ years consider themselves as a mature Christian because they've "been there" in the church for so long.

I've witnessed people, even children accept Christ (they become a Christian) and in a year, are more mature then many of the Christians who have been sitting in the pew for many years.

always
Oct 22nd 2015, 03:40 PM
I also feel many Christians confuse "veteran" Christians with the term mature Christians. Seems that some Christians who sit in the pew every Sunday for 20+ years consider themselves as a mature Christian because they've "been there" in the church for so long.

I've witnessed people, even children accept Christ (they become a Christian) and in a year, are more mature then many of the Christians who have been sitting in the pew for many years.

I gonna do a Slug Hoooooooooah on this one:)

Reynolds357
Oct 22nd 2015, 11:47 PM
Mature Christianity is not about sitting and hearing The Word; it is about applying The Word. Christians should mature to a point that they are teaching, preaching, evangelizing, and making disciples. It is easy to sit in a worship service.
Why did the Early Church operate the way they did? Because they had no written New Testament.
I fully support organized church. What I oppose is the disproportionate amount of emphasis we put on the Sunday morning worship service.

Slug1
Oct 23rd 2015, 02:53 AM
Mature Christianity is not about sitting and hearing The Word; it is about applying The Word. Christians should mature to a point that they are teaching, preaching, evangelizing, and making disciples. It is easy to sit in a worship service.
Why did the Early Church operate the way they did? Because they had no written New Testament.
I fully support organized church. What I oppose is the disproportionate amount of emphasis we put on the Sunday morning worship service.Hooah. Sunday is a day that should be a celebration of God but there is actually MORE then just celebrating God. There is work in the Kingdom of God to be done and the work is done... AWAY from the pews.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 24th 2015, 07:27 PM
I must admit that I personally like the home Bible study groups we used to have better than I like the Sunday morning worship service. I like corporately studying The Word better than I like listening to someone preach a sermon.


me too... not necessarily knocking sermons though... just prefer more focus to be upon The Word

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 24th 2015, 08:19 PM
...I've noticed, however, that scheduled activities seem to dominate people's lives, too....and being TOO busy "working in the church" can impede true worship and effective witness in the kingdom. We are to make disciples "as we go"....not "as we schedule another activity where everyone in the local assembly is expected to show up because we will be tabulating attendance."...



I can totally relate :yes: to what you're saying here... I know a lady who's super busy working in her Church... as Church secretary, Sunday school, children's Church & vacation Bible school director... she also compiles material & prints off the Church bulletins... & tabulates all who are eligible for the perfect attendance awards... the Holiday season is even more busy for her, because of the Church fall festival & Christmas play...

she seems happy enough to be so busy working in the Church she loves... but a couple of times I'd asked her input on Biblical issues; or maybe even Scriptures pertinent to Bible forum topics... she just kinda shrugs me off; saying she wishes she could find more free time for in depth, personal Bible study... instead of just reviewing the prescribed lessons from the Church curriculum, prior to Sunday & Wednesday services...
that's what seems kinda sad & melancholy to me :dunno:

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 24th 2015, 08:53 PM
Can Jesus be replaced by bible readings? Hmmm!


it's NOT that Christ is actually replaced by them... but His Anointing DOES teach us the Wisdom of the written Word, by Spiritual Discernment

Jake
Oct 24th 2015, 09:08 PM
Hooah. Sunday is a day that should be a celebration of God but there is actually MORE then just celebrating God. There is work in the Kingdom of God to be done and the work is done... AWAY from the pews.

It's also true the Kingdom of God comes in power, and the truth is there are very very few who actually emulate this power. Even atheists "do"......

Everyday should be a celebration of God, not sure how Sunday got mixed in with the whole idea of Christianity - or even one day of the week. Why not celebrate Him everyday? Why do pastors limit it?

joined2him
Oct 24th 2015, 09:41 PM
I can totally relate :yes: to what you're saying here... I know a lady who's super busy working in her Church... as Church secretary, Sunday school, children's Church & vacation Bible school director... she also compiles material & prints off the Church bulletins... & tabulates all who are eligible for the perfect attendance awards... the Holiday season is even more busy for her, because of the Church fall festival & Christmas play...

she seems happy enough to be so busy working in the Church she loves... but a couple of times I'd asked her input on Biblical issues; or maybe even Scriptures pertinent to Bible forum topics... she just kinda shrugs me off; saying she wishes she could find more free time for in depth, personal Bible study... instead of just reviewing the prescribed lessons from the Church curriculum, prior to Sunday & Wednesday services...
that's what seems kinda sad & melancholy to me :dunno:

I've known quite a few folks like the lady you describe; in fact, I've come close to being such a lady myself! What I've come to recognize is that in the CEO-type churches, there's a need to have the church's big brand stamped all over the activities and all of 'em under the direct, watchful eye of the pastor. To me this connotes a distrust of the members as being authentic bearers of the good news in all walks of life....and thus we have "church activities" separated from "real life"....and a compartmentalized attitude on the part of the members to go with it.

Glorious
Oct 24th 2015, 09:44 PM
A mature saint/Christian is one in whom are the gift, the administration, and the operation of all things of God unto the fullness of God.

Maturity is not based upon just being a gift (apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist or pastor) to the Church in Christ, but in having the fullness of God abide in you.

Let us pray and make supplications to God for His fullness. By His fullness, we eternally live to do His works and will on earth just as they are done in Heaven.

Slug1
Oct 25th 2015, 03:52 AM
It's also true the Kingdom of God comes in power, and the truth is there are very very few who actually emulate this power. Even atheists "do"......

Everyday should be a celebration of God, not sure how Sunday got mixed in with the whole idea of Christianity - or even one day of the week. Why not celebrate Him everyday? Why do pastors limit it?I have not met a pastor who does limit celebration of Christ. However, as a corporate effort, Sunday is a day where an entire Body can come together and celebrate together. This never "limits" celebration of God because as you said, each day can be a celebration.

The problem is many in the Body only do their celebration on a given Sunday when they can be doing it each day.

Jake
Oct 25th 2015, 11:45 AM
I have not met a pastor who does limit celebration of Christ. However, as a corporate effort, Sunday is a day where an entire Body can come together and celebrate together. This never "limits" celebration of God because as you said, each day can be a celebration.

The problem is many in the Body only do their celebration on a given Sunday when they can be doing it each day.

It's more like a social hour with no power, imo.

Slug1
Oct 25th 2015, 11:32 PM
It's more like a social hour with no power, imo.Not in my personal experience has a Sunday service been powerless for several years now. However, I know exactly what you mean and will add, not only is a Sunday service powerless but the lives of many Christians reflect the exact same powerlessness and there is no reflection of moving in and with the Holy Spirit.

Now in the past, in the churches I chose to be a part of... yeah, powerless.

Aviyah
Oct 25th 2015, 11:56 PM
Now in the past, in the churches I chose to be a part of... yeah, powerless.

How were you able to identify whether a church was powerless, and how quickly? Or do you mean in retrospect?

Jake
Oct 25th 2015, 11:57 PM
Not in my personal experience has a Sunday service been powerless for several years now. However, I know exactly what you mean and will add, not only is a Sunday service powerless but the lives of many Christians reflect the exact same powerlessness and there is no reflection of moving in and with the Holy Spirit.

Now in the past, in the churches I chose to be a part of... yeah, powerless.

Most of them are powerless, in fact the only power I've seen is outside of any church building, never saw someone get healed inside a church....mostly because they don't believe it. I've never seen anyone have their life transformed inside a church either. God isn't about the 4 walls.

I have no idea if your church is empowered or if it's not, people say their church is, they say their church is good....and then they're not.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2015, 12:45 AM
Most of them are powerless, in fact the only power I've seen is outside of any church building, never saw someone get healed inside a church....mostly because they don't believe it. I've never seen anyone have their life transformed inside a church either. God isn't about the 4 walls.

I have no idea if your church is empowered or if it's not, people say their church is, they say their church is good....and then they're not.God is allowed to freely move as He is celebrated. I too have witnessed/experienced people come to Christ, healed, corrected, etc inside and outside the walls of the building many call a church. Maybe because He is celebrated both inside and outside those walls as many have a relationship with Him both inside and outside those walls? :hmm:

When I left church today, I hit the road to go to a hospital 80 miles away to visit a member of our church and who is a friend. On the way there I was talking with my wife and this deposited into my spirit... I asked my wife to write it down:


When it comes to the Word, Learn it, Love it, Live it. So when I look out at the Body, I have to ask myself: what good is learning the Word, what good is loving the Word when you don't reflect a life as one who should be living the Word?

Even the standard disciple, Phillip, Ananias, Stephen, Timothy, even Cornelius, etc... their life reflected their having learned, loved and thus lived as a person should live, who has a relationship with God.

So many just have a relationship with their church, or their religion, or their doctrine, or their traditions, or their rituals... and the lack of God moving in their life, the powerlessness of their relationship with such examples reflects the lack of God in their life as church, religion, doctrine etc does fill their life... all in the name of God.

bunnymuldare
Oct 26th 2015, 01:18 AM
Most of them are powerless, in fact the only power I've seen is outside of any church building, never saw someone get healed inside a church....mostly because they don't believe it. I've never seen anyone have their life transformed inside a church either. God isn't about the 4 walls.

I have no idea if your church is empowered or if it's not, people say their church is, they say their church is good....and then they're not.

Jake,
Love is power too. Maybe the fellowship thing is more Christian than the power thing.
"This is my commandment, that you love one another, that your joy may be full."
I can't decide which would be better, to go home from church all aglow because of overflowing love for the people there, or going home healed, but lonely.
Ya know, I think I could handle a little bad health better.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2015, 01:27 AM
Jake,
Love is power too. Maybe the fellowship thing is more Christian than the power thing.
"This is my commandment, that you love one another, that your joy may be full."
I can't decide which would be better, to go home from church all aglow because of overflowing love for the people there, or going home healed, but lonely.
Ya know, I think I could handle a little bad health better.Both go hand in hand. I agree, for a person who has never loved, to love... or a person hurt by another, to love the one who hurt them (result of forgiveness), such is fruit of a mature relationship with God.

bunnymuldare
Oct 26th 2015, 01:50 AM
Slug,
You gotta admit. Some people make it much easier to love them.
Sometimes I can get my feelings hurt through no fault of my own (I know the difference) and if I'm not careful it can make me ill. Not too long ago I went to bed and could tell my blood pressure was way up.
I guess we should treat each other carefully. Jesus says it's the most important commandment.

PS Imagine the power in the room of a church that got it completely right.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 26th 2015, 05:09 AM
It's more like a social hour with no power, imo.


sad...but true... as is the case with some congregations of the frozen chosen around here

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 26th 2015, 05:44 AM
God is allowed to freely move as He is celebrated. I too have witnessed/experienced people come to Christ, healed, corrected, etc inside and outside the walls of the building many call a church. Maybe because He is celebrated both inside and outside those walls as many have a relationship with Him both inside and outside those walls? :hmm:


:amen: to this!... God is allowed to move freely as He is celebrated... I like that!... very well said!...
His Power in response to our praise!... where He knows He's truly welcome & worshiped from the heart...
where He's for real 24 hours a day, 7 days a week... & not just a superficial symbol reserved for Sundays & Wednesdays




So many just have a relationship with their church, or their religion, or their doctrine, or their traditions, or their rituals... and the lack of God moving in their life, the powerlessness of their relationship with such examples reflects the lack of God in their life as church, religion, doctrine etc does fill their life... all in the name of God.


it seems as though they're unwittingly quenching the Holy Spirit of God... by not allowing Him Free Reign over the Church (or their everyday lives)... they honor Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him...
it's as if they're stuck in a rut... persisting in their rigid schedule & routine... just going through the motions & then it's back to business as usual for the rest of the week...
it's as if they've never even heard of Christ's Perspective on a lukewarm Church :dunno:

Slug1
Oct 26th 2015, 12:38 PM
:amen: to this!... God is allowed to move freely as He is celebrated... I like that!... very well said!...
His Power in response to our praise!... where He knows He's truly welcome & worshiped from the heart...
where He's for real 24 hours a day, 7 days a week... & not just a superficial symbol reserved for Sundays & Wednesdays




it seems as though they're unwittingly quenching the Holy Spirit of God... by not allowing Him Free Reign over the Church (or their everyday lives)... they honor Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him...
it's as if they're stuck in a rut... persisting in their rigid schedule & routine... just going through the motions & then it's back to business as usual for the rest of the week...
it's as if they've never even heard of Christ's Perspective on a lukewarm Church :dunno:Check the block Christianity or better known as "religion"... all in the name of God.

Jake
Oct 26th 2015, 12:57 PM
Jake,
Love is power too. Maybe the fellowship thing is more Christian than the power thing.
"This is my commandment, that you love one another, that your joy may be full."
I can't decide which would be better, to go home from church all aglow because of overflowing love for the people there, or going home healed, but lonely.
Ya know, I think I could handle a little bad health better.

Many things can be faked, including love and without discernment (and even with) people are fooled into believing a church is filled with love, when it's not. A person can fake it at the pulpit as a pastor, too.....it's not an infrequent occurrence either.

It seems agape love is as just as much healing as taking pain away. Isn't it agape that perfects us?

Jake
Oct 26th 2015, 01:05 PM
it seems as though they're unwittingly quenching the Holy Spirit of God... by not allowing Him Free Reign over the Church (or their everyday lives)... they honor Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him...
it's as if they're stuck in a rut... persisting in their rigid schedule & routine... just going through the motions & then it's back to business as usual for the rest of the week...
it's as if they've never even heard of Christ's Perspective on a lukewarm Church :dunno:

It's like anything else we do, we want to be the controllers of our own lives, church leadership wants to have control over the churches, and when man runs the show we all know it's a head on collision.

I agree though with all the programs going on, I know people who have told me they go to their church everyday (and they aren't the pastors), they have programs running all the time but no time for God. It IS a popularity contest, everyone is swooning over the pastors and then they in turn put them in chosen roles, regardless of their gifts or other gifts people might have.

I wrote this the other day on a thread in Growing in Christ, I heard we become like the 5 people we hang out with the most, so going to one of these churches will make you like them.....no thanks.

joined2him
Oct 26th 2015, 03:38 PM
sad...but true... as is the case with some congregations of the frozen chosen around here

I don't think terms like that are particularly helpful either....the broad, thawed road is equally dangerous, and that is what I see predominating in the churches today....in the name of "love", as redefined so as to be friends with the world and serve the big building.

Reynolds357
Oct 26th 2015, 07:22 PM
sad...but true... as is the case with some congregations of the frozen chosen around here

My wife and I were discussing last night how pitiful a state the church as a whole is in. Some of the local and semi local scandals started the conversation. The conversation then moved to national ministry scandals. Sad to say, but most churches have become nothing but social clubs. There is absolutely NO power of THE SPIRIT present. If He did show up, they would run him off.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2015, 07:30 PM
My wife and I were discussing last night how pitiful a state the church as a whole is in. Some of the local and semi local scandals started the conversation. The conversation then moved to national ministry scandals. Sad to say, but most churches have become nothing but social clubs. There is absolutely NO power of THE SPIRIT present. If He did show up, they would run him off.What is crazy, such churches would not want God moving in their churches due to Him breaking their "order", and also because they would FEAR the going's on if He was to move as He would move during a service in breaking of their "order".

Reynolds357
Oct 26th 2015, 07:41 PM
What is crazy, such churches would not want God moving in their churches due to Him breaking their "order", and also because they would FEAR the going's on if He was to move as He would move during a service in breaking of their "order".

Yeah, we cant have any of that shouting going on.

always
Oct 26th 2015, 07:46 PM
What is crazy, such churches would not want God moving in their churches due to Him breaking their "order", and also because they would FEAR the going's on if He was to move as He would move during a service in breaking of their "order".


Wow, on our church programs we have " we alter service program as the Spirit leads" sometimes our pastor does not even go forth with a sermon, if the Spirit has an altar call.

Slug1
Oct 26th 2015, 08:05 PM
Wow, on our church programs we have " we alter service program as the Spirit leads" sometimes our pastor does not even go forth with a sermon, if the Spirit has an altar call.Just last Friday during the prayer service, anyone in the church can take the mic and "pray". Pray as the Spirit leads and many topics are raised in prayer, intercession, etc. The mic was handed off to a member who does exercise the gift of prophecy and this person began to pray and then minister what the Spirit of the Lord was ministering to this person to speak to those in attendance of this service. When the Lord was completed with ministering to all present through this person, the mic was handed off and a few more members prayed.

As the normal flow of these Friday night prayer services, once the praying is completed, the pastor will give a short exhortation and then dismiss all.

When the pastor went up to the pulpit, he explained that all that the Lord was to accomplish has been accomplished and there is no need for him to speak a word of exhortation.

God is Good.

We have had Sunday services where God moves in a powerful way during the worship that begins the service and by the time worship is completed, people have been ministered to at the altar, some in the past... healed. Words of knowledge, wisdom, prophetic words, etc spoken during the worship, sometimes in tongues and interpreted by a person in the congregation and when God has completed His move, again, the pastor was led in the Spirit that all has been accomplished for the service.

I personally have spoken with pastor after such Sundays and in discussion, understand that what he was to give as a sermon was not to be given, so God led and held church and the entire worship team was obedient to the move of the Spirit. Then, armed with this knowledge, witnessed how the following week, the sermon held for a week and then given... we would usually have visitors to the church or an event had happened during the week and the sermon's topic was in direct relation and actually in answer to the needs of the visitors, or due to the event, etc. This happens a few times a year and by flowing in the Spirit, in obedience and the witnessing of how God moves and even the WHY He moves in such ways is obvious to those who have their spiritual eyes open and also, ALLOW the Spirit to work, move, and flow.

always
Oct 26th 2015, 08:12 PM
Just last Friday during the prayer service, anyone in the church can take the mic and "pray". Pray as the Spirit leads and I personally have spoken with pastor after such Sundays and in discussion, understand that what he was to give as a sermon was not to be given, so God led and held church and the entire worship team was obedient to the move of the Spirit. Then, armed with this knowledge, witnessed how the following week, the sermon held for a week and then given... we would usually have visitors to the church or an event had happened during the week and the sermon's topic was in direct relation and actually in answer to the needs of the visitors, or due to the event, etc. This happens a few times a year and by flowing in the Spirit, in obedience and the witnessing of how God moves and even the WHY He moves in such ways is obvious to those who have their spiritual eyes open and also, ALLOW the Spirit to work, move, and flow.


Thanks Slug! you helped me with this, I always just felt, time was too far gone for the sermon

Jake
Oct 26th 2015, 10:53 PM
What is crazy, such churches would not want God moving in their churches due to Him breaking their "order", and also because they would FEAR the going's on if He was to move as He would move during a service in breaking of their "order".

You mean like the weekly sunday bulletin?

What about the pastor even writing a sermon......should that be happening? Maybe God wants pastors to talk about something else besides what they've prepared.

jayne
Oct 26th 2015, 11:55 PM
What about the pastor even writing a sermon......should that be happening? Maybe God wants pastors to talk about something else besides what they've prepared.

Jake, all the pastors that I know of do write things down - writing at least outlines of their sermons, study, prepare and that's a good thing. And all of them are sitting under the tutelage of God when they do. God is guiding them and teaching them to teach us.

I write my bible lessons down in note form as not to forget anything the LORD teaches me when I am preparing to teach my Sunday School class and my community Bible study class.

ChangedByHim
Oct 26th 2015, 11:56 PM
You mean like the weekly sunday bulletin?

What about the pastor even writing a sermon......should that be happening? Maybe God wants pastors to talk about something else besides what they've prepared.
There's more than one way of looking at that. Should not the pastor be hearing from the Holy Spirit during the week? Further, should not the pastor document what the Holy Spirit is saying to him? That said, even when that happens during the week, there are still plenty of times that the Holy Spirit gives me an impromptu message on Sunday. Lastly, if the pastor isn't hearing the Holy Spirit during the week chances are he is not going to hear him on Sunday either.

jayne
Oct 26th 2015, 11:57 PM
There's more than one way of looking at that. Should not the pastor be hearing from the Holy Spirit during the week? Further, should not the pastor document what the Holy Spirit is saying to him? That said, even when that happens during the week, there are still plenty of times that the Holy Spirit gives me an impromptu message on Sunday. Lastly, if the pastor isn't hearing the Holy Spirit during the week chances are he is not going to hear him on Sunday either.

Exactly.....................

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 12:08 AM
There's more than one way of looking at that. Should not the pastor be hearing from the Holy Spirit during the week? Further, should not the pastor document what the Holy Spirit is saying to him? That said, even when that happens during the week, there are still plenty of times that the Holy Spirit gives me an impromptu message on Sunday. Lastly, if the pastor isn't hearing the Holy Spirit during the week chances are he is not going to hear him on Sunday either.

But that's you.....do you know there are churches that have an entire year already scheduled out with topics for discussion? They're filling in the time with what they want the congregation to learn.

What if God doesn't want it to be all scheduled out? Maybe He wants the pastor to wait upon Him and then God will give the words to the pastor to speak? Maybe we're doing it all wrong. Maybe a pastors focus shouldn't be on the sermon he's preaching on Sunday?

Why is the pastor the one teaching anyway? Where are the other 5 offices?

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 12:10 AM
But that's you.....do you know there are churches that have an entire year already scheduled out with topics for discussion? They're filling in the time with what they want the congregation to learn.

What if God doesn't want it to be all scheduled out? Maybe He wants the pastor to wait upon Him and then God will give the words to the pastor to speak? Maybe we're doing it all wrong. Maybe a pastors focus shouldn't be on the sermon he's preaching on Sunday?

Why is the pastor the one teaching anyway? Where are the other 5 offices?

I couldn't agree with you more Jake. That's the sad state of affairs with in organized religion. Shepherds you don't hear the voice of the Lord are a detriment to the flock.

jayne
Oct 27th 2015, 12:21 AM
But that's you.....do you know there are churches that have an entire year already scheduled out with topics for discussion? They're filling in the time with what they want the congregation to learn.

How do you know of this personally? And if you do know personally of multiples churches where this is done, how do you know that the Holy Spirit is not guiding the pastor in that direction?

My pastor has felt led several times to do a book such as Romans or John verse-by-verse over several months. He always interrupts from time to time and says things like, "today we will deviate from our verse-by-verse look at Romans because the LORD is asking me to deliver this message to you."


What if God doesn't want it to be all scheduled out? Maybe He wants the pastor to wait upon Him and then God will give the words to the pastor to speak? Maybe we're doing it all wrong. Maybe a pastors focus shouldn't be on the sermon he's preaching on Sunday?

I don't think I could attend a church where a pastor gave no attention to his Sunday sermon. I'm grateful for the men I've sat under who heeded the voice of God daily and followed the Holy Spirit's lead in hard core weekly study and learning.


Why is the pastor the one teaching anyway? Where are the other 5 offices?

They are in their proper place. Leading from the choir, the Sunday School room, the streets during the week, the nursing homes visitations, and much more.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 12:41 AM
How do you know of this personally? And if you do know personally of multiples churches where this is done, how do you know that the Holy Spirit is not guiding the pastor in that direction?

My pastor has felt led several times to do a book such as Romans or John verse-by-verse over several months. He always interrupts from time to time and says things like, "today we will deviate from our verse-by-verse look at Romans because the LORD is asking me to deliver this message to you."



I don't think I could attend a church where a pastor gave no attention to his Sunday sermon. I'm grateful for the men I've sat under who heeded the voice of God daily and followed the Holy Spirit's lead in hard core weekly study and learning.



They are in their proper place. Leading from the choir, the Sunday School room, the streets during the week, the nursing homes visitations, and much more.

Well, at least ChangedByHim knew what I was talking about.

People get caught up into their own little churches and really don't have a clue to what's going on around them in other churches.

What I said is real......it's happening everywhere.....and maybe people should get out of their churches more to find out what a mess the state of the church is in.

I'm not sure which one is worse.....the person who belongs to one of these spirt-less churches OR the person who hasn't got a clue and is blind to the truth. Have you been reading Slug's posts? Do you really think because a church calls themselves a church that they are spirit led?

Do you think people are complaining about the state of the church because they have nothing better to do? Do you know how many people are being led AWAY FROM Christ because of these so called churches?

People need to wake up.........

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 12:47 AM
I couldn't agree with you more Jake. That's the sad state of affairs with in organized religion. Shepherds you don't hear the voice of the Lord are a detriment to the flock.

At least there are people out there who can SEE what is going on in Christianity today. We need more people to stand up and take notice of it, watch out for it and pray against it! If I lived closer, I would definitely go to your church, hands down, bro!

This is a verse that God has been showing me over and over again:

Jeremiah 23:1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord. 2 Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the Lord. 3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the Lord.

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 12:49 AM
Five out of the seven churches in Asia Minor were bad too. So it isn't just a recent phenomenon. But on the positive side two out of the seven were good. There are still good churches out there today in every community. Just because many are bad is no reason to neglect the assembling together.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2015, 01:05 AM
You mean like the weekly sunday bulletin?

What about the pastor even writing a sermon......should that be happening? Maybe God wants pastors to talk about something else besides what they've prepared.A pastor who seeks after the Lord, prepares what the Lord wants to say to the church in which God has anointed them to pastor.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 01:09 AM
Five out of the seven churches in Asia Minor were bad too. So it isn't just a recent phenomenon. But on the positive side two out of the seven were good. There are still good churches out there today in every community. Just because many are bad is no reason to neglect the assembling together.

Out of 100 churches, less than 4 will be any good, 22%.

It's better to avoid then get caught up with one where leadership is not following God.

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 01:14 AM
Out of 100 churches, less than 4 will be any good, 22%.

It's better to avoid then get caught up with one where leadership is not following God.

It's never better to disobey scripture.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 01:22 AM
It's never better to disobey scripture.

It's not really disobeying if those places aren't God approved.

We become like those we hang out with, so why even chance it?

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 02:02 AM
It's not really disobeying if those places aren't God approved.

We become like those we hang out with, so why even chance it?

Cannot the Holy Spirit lead a person to where he or she is supposed to be? If not, what direction does He provide?

jayne
Oct 27th 2015, 02:10 AM
Well, at least ChangedByHim knew what I was talking about.

People get caught up into their own little churches and really don't have a clue to what's going on around them in other churches.

What I said is real......it's happening everywhere.....and maybe people should get out of their churches more to find out what a mess the state of the church is in.

I'm not sure which one is worse.....the person who belongs to one of these spirt-less churches OR the person who hasn't got a clue and is blind to the truth. Have you been reading Slug's posts? Do you really think because a church calls themselves a church that they are spirit led?

Do you think people are complaining about the state of the church because they have nothing better to do? Do you know how many people are being led AWAY FROM Christ because of these so called churches?

People need to wake up.........

I am not clueless nor am I blind to the truth about churches today. I'm sorry that I'm not saying what you want to hear, so I'll bow out.

I feel your angst. I've felt it since yesterday when you came back. And I'm sorry that you are feeling so troubled to the point that you are not understanding me.

And I'm just sorry that your disappointment in some bad churches is leading you to paint them all black. I'm just trying to tell you that they are not all that way.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 02:29 AM
I feel your angst. I've felt it since yesterday when you came back.

Wow - I didn't know I had that much power over you......good to know. Hey, I already know I'm not welcomed here....but then again, you're not the reason I came back, nor are you who I think of when I think of this forum.....so having power over you is quit surprising to me, but like I said, good to know.

How do you know God didn't send me here to listen to OTHER people besides you? Wiser people who actually are pastors who know exactly what I'm talking about? I have a great respect for 3 people on this forum....they are all male and they are all pastors.....so what was it that you were saying.....still trying to find the wisdom.



And I'm sorry that you are feeling so troubled to the point that you are not understanding me.

This is not an apology....it's an attempt to make you look good and me look bad.

This is why people are repelled by churches, we don't want to hang out with people such as this because we don't want to become like one such as this....
that's what you are not understanding.

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 02:29 AM
Well, at least ChangedByHim knew what I was talking about.

People get caught up into their own little churches and really don't have a clue to what's going on around them in other churches.

What I said is real......it's happening everywhere.....and maybe people should get out of their churches more to find out what a mess the state of the church is in.

I'm not sure which one is worse.....the person who belongs to one of these spirt-less churches OR the person who hasn't got a clue and is blind to the truth. Have you been reading Slug's posts? Do you really think because a church calls themselves a church that they are spirit led?

Do you think people are complaining about the state of the church because they have nothing better to do? Do you know how many people are being led AWAY FROM Christ because of these so called churches?

People need to wake up.........

I know exactly what you are talking about. It's called the "Big Idea"....and entire seminars are held teaching pastors how to climb aboard the train and join with other pastors to preach the same message throughout the world on a given day. There are books written about these methodologies, as well. And how to turn a well-established church "inside out and upside down" in order to transition to this "new" model that looks just like the old models that have resulted in two generations of lukewarm Christians with families that want nothing to do with God unless He likes extremely contemporary music and asks nothing more of them except that they have FUN!

That's just ONE specific I have personally come to know about.

It's clear to me that people think their particular congregations are representative of all churches in all geographic areas. They are not.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 02:32 AM
I know exactly what you are talking about. It's called the "Big Idea"....and entire seminars are held teaching pastors how to climb aboard the train and join with other pastors to preach the same message throughout the world on a given day. There are books written about these methodologies, as well. And how to turn a well-established church "inside out and upside down" in order to transition to this "new" model that looks just like the old models that have resulted in two generations of lukewarm Christians with families that want nothing to do with God unless He likes extremely contemporary music and asks nothing more of them except that they have FUN!

That's just ONE specific I have personally come to know about.

It's clear to me that people think their particular congregations are representative of all churches in all geographic areas. They are not.

Finally! Thank you!

Very true.....I live in a highly liberal area and the churches here are liberal, it's very very difficult to find a church that preaches out of the Word. I belonged to a church, but then the pastor was found to be corrupt and they closed the entire church! Now I am cautious......I don't want to end up in a church that the leadership can't be trusted.

People DO go to their church, head in sand, and they think everything is perfect in Christendom, far from it.

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 02:34 AM
At least there are people out there who can SEE what is going on in Christianity today. We need more people to stand up and take notice of it, watch out for it and pray against it! If I lived closer, I would definitely go to your church, hands down, bro!

This is a verse that God has been showing me over and over again:

Jeremiah 23:1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord. 2 Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the Lord. 3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the Lord.

God has been showing me the parallel passages from Ezekiel 34 for the past 10 years, brother! Same message.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 02:39 AM
God has been showing me the parallel passages from Ezekiel 34 for the past 10 years, brother! Same message.

I guess I'll have to read Ezekiel 34 then.

I'm glad there are other people on this forum who actually can SEE this and have an understanding.

Thanks.

Protective Angel
Oct 27th 2015, 02:39 AM
Just last Friday during the prayer service, anyone in the church can take the mic and "pray". Pray as the Spirit leads and many topics are raised in prayer, intercession, etc. The mic was handed off to a member who does exercise the gift of prophecy and this person began to pray and then minister what the Spirit of the Lord was ministering to this person to speak to those in attendance of this service. When the Lord was completed with ministering to all present through this person, the mic was handed off and a few more members prayed.

As the normal flow of these Friday night prayer services, once the praying is completed, the pastor will give a short exhortation and then dismiss all.

When the pastor went up to the pulpit, he explained that all that the Lord was to accomplish has been accomplished and there is no need for him to speak a word of exhortation.

God is Good.

We have had Sunday services where God moves in a powerful way during the worship that begins the service and by the time worship is completed, people have been ministered to at the altar, some in the past... healed. Words of knowledge, wisdom, prophetic words, etc spoken during the worship, sometimes in tongues and interpreted by a person in the congregation and when God has completed His move, again, the pastor was led in the Spirit that all has been accomplished for the service.

I personally have spoken with pastor after such Sundays and in discussion, understand that what he was to give as a sermon was not to be given, so God led and held church and the entire worship team was obedient to the move of the Spirit. Then, armed with this knowledge, witnessed how the following week, the sermon held for a week and then given... we would usually have visitors to the church or an event had happened during the week and the sermon's topic was in direct relation and actually in answer to the needs of the visitors, or due to the event, etc. This happens a few times a year and by flowing in the Spirit, in obedience and the witnessing of how God moves and even the WHY He moves in such ways is obvious to those who have their spiritual eyes open and also, ALLOW the Spirit to work, move, and flow.

Slug, your post is what "real" churches are. You already know it and others should believe it.

I don't believe that a person in charge of the service should ever apologize for the Holy Spirit's lead. But I've seen some apologize.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 02:41 AM
Cannot the Holy Spirit lead a person to where he or she is supposed to be? If not, what direction does He provide?

Of course He can and He does!

I lead a Bible study and I believe it's the assembling of believers, but we are young and would like to be discipled and are frustrated with lack of godly leadership in the area.

Protective Angel
Oct 27th 2015, 02:43 AM
You mean like the weekly sunday bulletin?

What about the pastor even writing a sermon......should that be happening? Maybe God wants pastors to talk about something else besides what they've prepared.

Jake :)

Your letting some "bad apple" experiences spoil the whole bunch. All churches are not like that.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2015, 02:48 AM
Finally! Thank you!

Very true.....I live in a highly liberal area and the churches here are liberal, it's very very difficult to find a church that preaches out of the Word. I belonged to a church, but then the pastor was found to be corrupt and they closed the entire church! Now I am cautious......I don't want to end up in a church that the leadership can't be trusted.

People DO go to their church, head in sand, and they think everything is perfect in Christendom, far from it.Here is my view, the reason for this problem to exist is because many "teachers/pastors, etc" have applied a personal level of "mentoring" others and have lost the meaning of discipling spiritual children. It's a numbers game and the more they can mentor (in classrooms), the more mini-me's they produce. Instead, elders and "spiritual fathers" should disciple their spiritual children, which means hands on, they take them where they go and show them what to do, teach them not only what they have learned but also, they learn and EXPERIENCE learning together. So the product is a future spiritual father who does greater work than the person who discipled them. Instead of producing a ton of mini-me's through seminars and classroom environments ONLY. Mini-me's who can't do more than what they were showed through a book or a lesson handout and thus, all they can do only as their teaching taught them to do. Lack of experience can easily be the result of such a teaching environment.

I believe how Paul took disciples with him, how they experienced what Paul experienced, as Jesus "took" disciples with Him as He worked and taught, this is the model, and is the model that Paul executed as he raised up disciples and his spiritual children as he fathered them.

Sure, classroom teaching is great and needed, but this is only a portion of what discipling is all about. So when a person only has this portion and is never taken under the personal care, where the spiritual father has a relationship with a spiritual child that they are discipling into a leader... this lack of this VERY important portion of discipleship is so lacking, the result is weak and ineffective leadership in the Body of Christ today.

What we are seeing, is fruit of this lack of proper discipleship.

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 02:48 AM
It's clear to me that people think their particular congregations are representative of all churches in all geographic areas. They are not.

Maybe it's just that some of the people on here have put in the effort and the prayer required to find a good church.

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 02:53 AM
Maybe it's just that some of the people on here have put in the effort and the prayer required to find a good church.

I could bore you for quite some time with an account of the extreme lengths to which I have gone to find a good church, only to join one and have it be HIJACKED by a "new pastor" who needed to save that "dying" church (you know, the old, faithful remnant?) that I joined.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2015, 02:54 AM
Slug, your post is what "real" churches are. You already know it and others should believe it.

I don't believe that a person in charge of the service should ever apologize for the Holy Spirit's lead. But I've seen some apologize.I have witnessed such a service and the senior pastor was ministered to in such a mighty way by God, the senior leadership of the church concluded the service while the senior pastor was still on his face on the altar.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2015, 02:56 AM
Maybe it's just that some of the people on here have put in the effort and the prayer required to find a good church.Amen... my prayer as such was ongoing for a year before God led me to the church I am a part of today.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 02:56 AM
Maybe it's just that some of the people on here have put in the effort and the prayer required to find a good church.

So have the rest of us out here.

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 03:00 AM
I could bore you for quite some time with an account of the extreme lengths to which I have gone to find a good church, only to join one and have it be HIJACKED by a "new pastor" who needed to save that "dying" church (you know, the old, faithful remnant?) that I joined.

The more important question is are you in a church now?

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 03:01 AM
Amen... my prayer as such was ongoing for a year before God led me to the church I am a part of today.

I've been in three different churches as a result of prayerful searching. I was raised in leadership in all three churches. In all three, there was a change of pastors after I joined. Nevertheless, I hung in there, working cheerfully, and hoping the warnings that were sounding in my spirit would be resolved by my continually being open and honest with the leadership as we continued to serve. Then I learned what they were really up to in the leadership ranks. Bye!

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 03:02 AM
The more important question is are you in a church now?

The important question is which of the THREE that I am currently checking out and attending regularly is the one God wants me to join.....if any!

Is that a good enough answer for you? I doubt it.

Slug1
Oct 27th 2015, 03:18 AM
I've been in three different churches as a result of prayerful searching. I was raised in leadership in all three churches. In all three, there was a change of pastors after I joined. Nevertheless, I hung in there, working cheerfully, and hoping the warnings that were sounding in my spirit would be resolved by my continually being open and honest with the leadership as we continued to serve. Then I learned what they were really up to in the leadership ranks. Bye!In my personal experience, God is not a God of trial and error. I waited, remained in one church until He answered. While in that church, we were proactive in the church and even established a Celebrate Recovery Ministry in the church since God was at the time leading both my wife and I into counseling of others. Once this was fully establish and had run for a year, God began to answer my prayers and since we were always discipling leadership to one day replace us as directors of the ministry. So transitioning out of the church once God said it was time to go, was not troubling and we received the blessing of our pastor as we revealed to him the time had come to move on. His prayer was quite powerful and his encouragement very much welcomed.

All I can say is ensure it is God because He is not going to have you confirm your prayer through trial and error, He will confirm so that when you move to a church, it's the one He is directing you to.

And yes, the church I now serve God, the one He led me too... problems have happened, the senior pastor who was pastoring when I and my wife arrived, abandoned the church a few years later, divided the church too. But this was the church God led me too and we remained obedient and now, I understand why He said NO when I asked Him if I was to leave the church when the church was in such turmoil and self destruction. I bet I could write a book...

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 03:26 AM
In my personal experience, God is not a God of trial and error. I waited, remained in one church until He answered. While in that church, we were proactive in the church and even established a Celebrate Recovery Ministry in the church since God was at the time leading both my wife and I into counseling of others. Once this was fully establish and had run for a year, God began to answer my prayers and since we were always discipling leadership to one day replace us as directors of the ministry. So transitioning out of the church once God said it was time to go, was not troubling and we received the blessing of our pastor as we revealed to him the time had come to move on. His prayer was quite powerful and his encouragement very much welcomed.

All I can say is ensure it is God because He is not going to have you confirm your prayer through trial and error, He will confirm so that when you move to a church, it's the one He is directing you to.

And yes, the church I now serve God, the one He led me too... problems have happened, the senior pastor who was pastoring when I and my wife arrived, abandoned the church a few years later, divided the church too. But this was the church God led me too and we remained obedient and now, I understand why He said NO when I asked Him if I was to leave the church when the church was in such turmoil and self destruction. I bet I could write a book...

Couldn't agree more. And I am 100% certain that when I joined those three churches (where I faithfully attended and served for the past 30 years), I was there because God placed me there. However, I am also quite certain that when God sounded the warnings in my ears and instructed me to WARN, watch, and wait....and I obeyed....and then He told me when to leave, what to say, and how to leave....I obeyed.

I have absolutely no doubt that if He wants me to join a local assembly, He will tell me which one, and when. Right now, however, His instruction seems to be to watch, pray, and wait until He tells me exactly when to move and where. That is exactly what I am doing.

No trial or error involved.

As I said, I left those other, long-established, doctrinally-sound assemblies because they were hijacked by pastors whose "vision" (which is well described in how-to books) was to deliberately turn "their" new flocks inside out and upside down.

I will also add that two of those churches collapsed, the second under the weight of the humongous debt the "visionary" pastors had run up in pursuit of growth as prescribed in the how-to books and seminars. The first building is now a wiccan antique store, and the second is now a mosque.

Jake
Oct 27th 2015, 03:34 AM
I don't see the point in a continued effort in trying to find a church, the Bible says do not forsake a solemn assembly - and where 2 or 3 are gathered (a bible study in a home constitutes as such). Instead of conforming to Christ and doing what He wants us to do, we spend a vast amount of time, effort and obviously years trying to find a church that will only disappoint. We hear of stories, from other Christians, how perfect their churches are, what they do, how they do it, why their church is good and on and on.......you'd think that by listening to these, that every single church is a good one and we should just suck it up, compromise and GO.

If they were that great, people would be flocking to them....but the truth is, people are leaving them. They're leaving because many many many of the people inside of them look nothing like Christ....as seen in this thread. They are unwelcoming and if Jesus showed up - He would not be welcomed either. There is no power, there is no love, if we're not conforming to the people inside the church, then we're outcasts, if we're not speaking the language, if we're not believing the doctrine, if we're not behaving and acting like the people in particular congregations, you're an outcast. Don't believe me? Go to a church where they don't line up with your particular pet doctrine and see what happens.

Not saying every single church is corrupt and not every single church preaches lies.....but the majority does and even if your church taught a lie, a person wouldn't even know it because they're in love with their doctrine, with themselves, with how "right" they are and how wrong everyone else is. These look down on those who don't go to church, like they're self righteous and have elevated themselves above us peons - which has been apparent by some in this thread.

What is wrong with Christianity - is people....all we have to do is go to a forum and read the threads to find that out. People are imperfect so why is it such a surprise our churches are a mess......

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 04:00 AM
I don't see the point in a continued effort in trying to find a church, the Bible says do not forsake a solemn assembly - and where 2 or 3 are gathered (a bible study in a home constitutes as such). Instead of conforming to Christ and doing what He wants us to do, we spend a vast amount of time, effort and obviously years trying to find a church that will only disappoint. We hear of stories, from other Christians, how perfect their churches are, what they do, how they do it, why their church is good and on and on.......you'd think that by listening to these, that every single church is a good one and we should just suck it up, compromise and GO.

If they were that great, people would be flocking to them....but the truth is, people are leaving them. They're leaving because many many many of the people inside of them look nothing like Christ....as seen in this thread. They are unwelcoming and if Jesus showed up - He would not be welcomed either. There is no power, there is no love, if we're not conforming to the people inside the church, then we're outcasts, if we're not speaking the language, if we're not believing the doctrine, if we're not behaving and acting like the people in particular congregations, you're an outcast. Don't believe me? Go to a church where they don't line up with your particular pet doctrine and see what happens.

Not saying every single church is corrupt and not every single church preaches lies.....but the majority does and even if your church taught a lie, a person wouldn't even know it because they're in love with their doctrine, with themselves, with how "right" they are and how wrong everyone else is. These look down on those who don't go to church, like they're self righteous and have elevated themselves above us peons - which has been apparent by some in this thread.

What is wrong with Christianity - is people....all we have to do is go to a forum and read the threads to find that out. People are imperfect so why is it such a surprise our churches are a mess......

Well, brother, I certainly share some of your observations, and questions about what, exactly, constitutes a "church" nowadays. The assembly seems easy to define....it's where groups of Christians get together. Period.

But the church does have to have some accountability and leadership, and sound teaching, discipleship and probably some group missional activities, I think. What gets in the way is the ambition of corporate-minded leaders who equate "church growth" with sheer numbers (people and dollars!), while forgetting that it is JESUS who builds His church, and He never said the numbers would be big. FEW there be who find it.

The mega-church movement holds smaller assemblies in tremendous scorn and derisively calls them "dying"....while stealing the sheep to make that happen.

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 11:29 AM
The important question is which of the THREE that I am currently checking out and attending regularly is the one God wants me to join.....if any!

Is that a good enough answer for you? I doubt it.
No need to be defensive. I'm glad you are looking and praying. I pray that you find the church where God wants you and are blessed and fruitful there :).

Pbminimum
Oct 27th 2015, 05:39 PM
I have been the member of one church as a saved man. My wife and myself, along with our children have been members there for nearly 20 years. I was saved at that church at the age of 28 after having been to church my whole life somewhere else, that was probably more alive spiritually than where I ended up at the time. Here is the kicker...When my wife and I joined the church it was a dead church, and I was a lost man. God sent his shepherd to us, and I came to know Christ about a year and a half after joining.

After I was saved, I didn't have a choice but to be the church. Notice I didn't say "go" to church. When someone is saved they become the church. They couldn't keep me out of there. And I know that some are thinking that my focus was on man and not God. Wrong. I can't explain it, but I just wanted to be there whenever I could.

Slowly God started changing the whole dynamic of our body. How ? We focus on the Gospel. Yeah....I know. Probably a lot of skeptics that think " we are told to make disciples". Yeah. we are. But our main focus is Jesus, and carrying His gospel to the world. And guess what ? God has blessed us. As a whole, our leadership is of one accord. Yeah. your always going to have attacks and agents of the enemy that try to come in. But the preaching of the Gospel keeps most of that garbage out the door.

Over the last several years, God has changed things. People have come and gone. Many have been moved to carry this simple version of "church" to other places. And guess what ? THE SAME THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN THOSE PLACES. I look at it like this. If 2 or 3 men would have whined and said it was too tough on the outset, and left our church body when things were bad, we wouldn't be where we are today. Their obedience to what God wanted, and God blessing that obedience, has led to HUNDREDS of people in my community being baptized and many , many people's lives have been changed. These people who laid the tracks did NOT have it easy. I could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl. Old time religion that nearly split the community in half. Death threats, and flat out hatred for not doing things like granddaddy did...etc. etc. etc. But these men, powered by the Holy Spirit, did not become a part of the problem. They were a part of the solution. They refused to quit. And my community has been, and is being reached with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This isn't to lift up men. This is meant to lift up the body of Christ. His bride.

It doesn't stop there....this Gospel is now being carried to the ends of the earth by a bunch of Alabama rednecks sanctified by the Holy Spirit. World wide we are talking about thousands of people coming to Jesus and His church being established where there is none. Not 20 years ago, this church was running about 35 people on Sunday morning and was being led by a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's what God can do.

But we must know what God's will is for us and where He want's us. When we know what that will is, we don't quit for anything. No matter if we are the last man standing, quitting cannot be an option. Be a part of the solution. Like my first pastor used to say to people who would come and go then leave a list of complaints as to why they left....." If you find the perfect church, please don't join it...because you will ruin it".

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 06:38 PM
I have been the member of one church as a saved man. My wife and myself, along with our children have been members there for nearly 20 years. I was saved at that church at the age of 28 after having been to church my whole life somewhere else, that was probably more alive spiritually than where I ended up at the time. Here is the kicker...When my wife and I joined the church it was a dead church, and I was a lost man. God sent his shepherd to us, and I came to know Christ about a year and a half after joining.

After I was saved, I didn't have a choice but to be the church. Notice I didn't say "go" to church. When someone is saved they become the church. They couldn't keep me out of there. And I know that some are thinking that my focus was on man and not God. Wrong. I can't explain it, but I just wanted to be there whenever I could.

Slowly God started changing the whole dynamic of our body. How ? We focus on the Gospel. Yeah....I know. Probably a lot of skeptics that think " we are told to make disciples". Yeah. we are. But our main focus is Jesus, and carrying His gospel to the world. And guess what ? God has blessed us. As a whole, our leadership is of one accord. Yeah. your always going to have attacks and agents of the enemy that try to come in. But the preaching of the Gospel keeps most of that garbage out the door.

Over the last several years, God has changed things. People have come and gone. Many have been moved to carry this simple version of "church" to other places. And guess what ? THE SAME THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN THOSE PLACES. I look at it like this. If 2 or 3 men would have whined and said it was too tough on the outset, and left our church body when things were bad, we wouldn't be where we are today. Their obedience to what God wanted, and God blessing that obedience, has led to HUNDREDS of people in my community being baptized and many , many people's lives have been changed. These people who laid the tracks did NOT have it easy. I could tell you some stories that would make your skin crawl. Old time religion that nearly split the community in half. Death threats, and flat out hatred for not doing things like granddaddy did...etc. etc. etc. But these men, powered by the Holy Spirit, did not become a part of the problem. They were a part of the solution. They refused to quit. And my community has been, and is being reached with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This isn't to lift up men. This is meant to lift up the body of Christ. His bride.

It doesn't stop there....this Gospel is now being carried to the ends of the earth by a bunch of Alabama rednecks sanctified by the Holy Spirit. World wide we are talking about thousands of people coming to Jesus and His church being established where there is none. Not 20 years ago, this church was running about 35 people on Sunday morning and was being led by a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's what God can do.

But we must know what God's will is for us and where He want's us. When we know what that will is, we don't quit for anything. No matter if we are the last man standing, quitting cannot be an option. Be a part of the solution. Like my first pastor used to say to people who would come and go then leave a list of complaints as to why they left....." If you find the perfect church, please don't join it...because you will ruin it".

And when the new pastor comes in and doesn't emphasize Jesus....in fact, downplays Him and pronounces the cross on display in the sanctuary to be "bad for business"....what then?

I vowed to be the last person to "turn out the lights" when the church I joined (and in which I joyfully and vigorously served through many stormy years) dwindled from 300 to 100...after the big, fancy new building was constructed. I had NO intention of leaving any of the three churches in which I immersed myself and was raised in leadership in the exercise of my gifts. But I heard God's voice telling me what to do and I obeyed.

I submit that many of you have no understanding of what it is like to be in a bright blue state, trying to be a faithful, traditional witness while NOT being legalistic.

But I would like someone here to explain how the Lord removes a given church's lampstand, if the duty is to hang in there regardless who is steering the ship onto the reefs. Where are the seven churches of the early Christian days to be found today? Were all those members derelict in their duties to just hang in there, no matter what?

Also, if you ever are the last man standing....how does that differ from the alternative being discussed here? Maybe that's exactly how it is working out for the faithful in some churches.

Reynolds357
Oct 27th 2015, 06:57 PM
And when the new pastor comes in and doesn't emphasize Jesus....in fact, downplays Him and pronounces the cross on display in the sanctuary to be "bad for business"....what then?

I vowed to be the last person to "turn out the lights" when the church I joined (and in which I joyfully and vigorously served through many stormy years) dwindled from 300 to 100...after the big, fancy new building was constructed. I had NO intention of leaving any of the three churches in which I immersed myself and was raised in leadership in the exercise of my gifts. But I heard God's voice telling me what to do and I obeyed.

I submit that many of you have no understanding of what it is like to be in a bright blue state, trying to be a faithful, traditional witness while NOT being legalistic.

But I would like someone here to explain how the Lord removes a given church's lampstand, if the duty is to hang in there regardless who is steering the ship onto the reefs. Where are the seven churches of the early Christian days to be found today? Were all those members derelict in their duties to just hang in there, no matter what?

Also, if you ever are the last man standing....how does that differ from the alternative being discussed here? Maybe that's exactly how it is working out for the faithful in some churches.
In many instances, Building programs are extremely damaging to churches.

always
Oct 27th 2015, 06:57 PM
But we must know what God's will is for us and where He want's us. When we know what that will is, we don't quit for anything. No matter if we are the last man standing, quitting cannot be an option. Be a part of the solution. Like my first pastor used to say to people who would come and go then leave a list of complaints as to why they left....." If you find the perfect church, please don't join it...because you will ruin it".


Amen, Amen, Amen

joined2him
Oct 27th 2015, 07:01 PM
In many instances, Building programs are extremely damaging to churches.

They sure are. And they are a high priority in the "visioning" of many ambitious graduates of seminaries who subscribe to the methodologies I've briefly mentioned in this thread. The idea is to kick the church out of the building, turn the "worship" assembly of the saints into an outreach event, and pack the building with the "unchurched", so they feel they belong before they believe.

Reynolds357
Oct 27th 2015, 07:29 PM
They sure are. And they are a high priority in the "visioning" of many ambitious graduates of seminaries who subscribe to the methodologies I've briefly mentioned in this thread. The idea is to kick the church out of the building, turn the "worship" assembly of the saints into an outreach event, and pack the building with the "unchurched", so they feel they belong before they believe.

Yeah, in our instance it just amounted to a bunch of our members decided they wanted a big nice building that we could not pay for.

watchinginawe
Oct 27th 2015, 07:35 PM
Of course He can and He does!

I lead a Bible study and I believe it's the assembling of believers, but we are young and would like to be discipled and are frustrated with lack of godly leadership in the area.

Just wondering, but do you know what the Bible study is going to be about beforehand? Can others study the word beforehand, or are they just completely surprised study to study about what will be covered?

I ask because of one of your posts above was regarding whole churches with common topics laid out on a Calendar. Personally, I don't observe that. But I can see the good in it. Such a "system" guarantees a rotation throughout the WHOLE word of God over a given period of time. Many churches who hold to expository preaching do so deliberately, allowing everyone to be exposed systematically to the whole word of God. What is preached is individual, as the Spirit leads and illuminates. I find it more than interesting that the sermons I listen to and enjoy are almost ALL expository sermons.

Some of the worst sermons I have ever heard, and been personally embarrassed for the speaker even, are those where there is no preparation. Over my many years, I have heard a good many of such sermons where the topic was... not preparing sermons beforehand. How useless and self serving, at least in my opinion.

Brother, take the above in the correct spirit, which will require you to grow up some though. I truly hope you are used in a mighty way in your Bible studies.

Blessings,

Pbminimum
Oct 27th 2015, 07:52 PM
And when the new pastor comes in and doesn't emphasize Jesus....in fact, downplays Him and pronounces the cross on display in the sanctuary to be "bad for business"....what then?

I vowed to be the last person to "turn out the lights" when the church I joined (and in which I joyfully and vigorously served through many stormy years) dwindled from 300 to 100...after the big, fancy new building was constructed. I had NO intention of leaving any of the three churches in which I immersed myself and was raised in leadership in the exercise of my gifts. But I heard God's voice telling me what to do and I obeyed.

I submit that many of you have no understanding of what it is like to be in a bright blue state, trying to be a faithful, traditional witness while NOT being legalistic.

But I would like someone here to explain how the Lord removes a given church's lampstand, if the duty is to hang in there regardless who is steering the ship onto the reefs. Where are the seven churches of the early Christian days to be found today? Were all those members derelict in their duties to just hang in there, no matter what?

Also, if you ever are the last man standing....how does that differ from the alternative being discussed here? Maybe that's exactly how it is working out for the faithful in some churches.

Your the only one who can know the will of God concerning your church. If God says stay...Put a smile on your face and stay. This may mean being the one who lovingly addresses the issues you've spoken of. If He says go...then go , but go with love as well , and with a clean conscience.

ChangedByHim
Oct 27th 2015, 09:07 PM
And when the new pastor comes in and doesn't emphasize Jesus....in fact, downplays Him and pronounces the cross on display in the sanctuary to be "bad for business"....what then?

I vowed to be the last person to "turn out the lights" when the church I joined (and in which I joyfully and vigorously served through many stormy years) dwindled from 300 to 100...after the big, fancy new building was constructed. I had NO intention of leaving any of the three churches in which I immersed myself and was raised in leadership in the exercise of my gifts. But I heard God's voice telling me what to do and I obeyed.

I submit that many of you have no understanding of what it is like to be in a bright blue state, trying to be a faithful, traditional witness while NOT being legalistic.

But I would like someone here to explain how the Lord removes a given church's lampstand, if the duty is to hang in there regardless who is steering the ship onto the reefs. Where are the seven churches of the early Christian days to be found today? Were all those members derelict in their duties to just hang in there, no matter what?

Also, if you ever are the last man standing....how does that differ from the alternative being discussed here? Maybe that's exactly how it is working out for the faithful in some churches.
You must distinguish between loyalty to man and loyalty to God. The former will keep you in a church long after the Holy Spirit instructs to move on. No one ever promised that it would be easy, and many, if not most here have been through circumstances just as challenging. It's part of denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Him. It sounds like that's what you're doing, so be confident that God is for you and will prepare the way for the next chapter in your walk.

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 12:35 AM
Your the only one who can know the will of God concerning your church. If God says stay...Put a smile on your face and stay. This may mean being the one who lovingly addresses the issues you've spoken of. If He says go...then go , but go with love as well , and with a clean conscience.

Yes, that's what I've done. Clean conscience here. :)

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 12:40 AM
You must distinguish between loyalty to man and loyalty to God. The former will keep you in a church long after the Holy Spirit instructs to move on. No one ever promised that it would be easy, and many, if not most here have been through circumstances just as challenging. It's part of denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Him. It sounds like that's what you're doing, so be confident that God is for you and will prepare the way for the next chapter in your walk.

Good observations! Yes, loyalty to those whom we love will keep us in a church long after the Holy Spirit instructs to move on, if we aren't certain about His leading (because we aren't earnestly, prayerfully, and watchfully seeking it, I believe).

I am very confident that God is with me and finally getting some glimpses of where He's taking me next. But I've had some confusion and bitterness to work through for the past year, and have no doubt that a time like that is a good time to rest and heal, for more effective service in the kingdom when He says, "time to move on, Child!" It is a very difficult thing to leave a church!

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 28th 2015, 04:55 AM
Quote Originally Posted by always
Wow, on our church programs we have " we alter service program as the Spirit leads" sometimes our pastor does not even go forth with a sermon, if the Spirit has an altar call.




Just last Friday during the prayer service, anyone in the church can take the mic and "pray". Pray as the Spirit leads and many topics are raised in prayer, intercession, etc. The mic was handed off to a member who does exercise the gift of prophecy and this person began to pray and then minister what the Spirit of the Lord was ministering to this person to speak to those in attendance of this service. When the Lord was completed with ministering to all present through this person, the mic was handed off and a few more members prayed.

As the normal flow of these Friday night prayer services, once the praying is completed, the pastor will give a short exhortation and then dismiss all.

When the pastor went up to the pulpit, he explained that all that the Lord was to accomplish has been accomplished and there is no need for him to speak a word of exhortation.

God is Good.

We have had Sunday services where God moves in a powerful way during the worship that begins the service and by the time worship is completed, people have been ministered to at the altar, some in the past... healed. Words of knowledge, wisdom, prophetic words, etc spoken during the worship, sometimes in tongues and interpreted by a person in the congregation and when God has completed His move, again, the pastor was led in the Spirit that all has been accomplished for the service.

I personally have spoken with pastor after such Sundays and in discussion, understand that what he was to give as a sermon was not to be given, so God led and held church and the entire worship team was obedient to the move of the Spirit. Then, armed with this knowledge, witnessed how the following week, the sermon held for a week and then given... we would usually have visitors to the church or an event had happened during the week and the sermon's topic was in direct relation and actually in answer to the needs of the visitors, or due to the event, etc. This happens a few times a year and by flowing in the Spirit, in obedience and the witnessing of how God moves and even the WHY He moves in such ways is obvious to those who have their spiritual eyes open and also, ALLOW the Spirit to work, move, and flow.

:amen: to this!... so glad to know that there are still congregations out there like this

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 28th 2015, 05:05 AM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ChangedByHim http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=3260809#post3260809)
Five out of the seven churches in Asia Minor were bad too. So it isn't just a recent phenomenon. But on the positive side two out of the seven were good. There are still good churches out there today in every community. Just because many are bad is no reason to neglect the assembling together.


:agree:



Out of 100 churches, less than 4 will be any good, 22%.

It's better to avoid then get caught up with one where leadership is not following God.


so why not avoid the bad while still searching for the good?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Oct 28th 2015, 05:15 AM
Cannot the Holy Spirit lead a person to where he or she is supposed to be? If not, what direction does He provide?


:amen: The Holy Spirit's Anointing + staying saturated in The Word = the Spiritual Discernment to help us find a sound Biblical Church

ChangedByHim
Oct 28th 2015, 12:03 PM
Good observations! Yes, loyalty to those whom we love will keep us in a church long after the Holy Spirit instructs to move on, if we aren't certain about His leading (because we aren't earnestly, prayerfully, and watchfully seeking it, I believe).

I am very confident that God is with me and finally getting some glimpses of where He's taking me next. But I've had some confusion and bitterness to work through for the past year, and have no doubt that a time like that is a good time to rest and heal, for more effective service in the kingdom when He says, "time to move on, Child!" It is a very difficult thing to leave a church!

For certain, how we leave one situation affects how we enter the next.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2015, 12:35 PM
For certain, how we leave one situation affects how we enter the next.This is so true. My wife and I have just recently begun to develop and add a new lesson chapter to our Breaking the Chains book/lesson plan for the ministry. The chapter deals specifically with those who have been hurt by a "church" , "church related occurrence", or a church "leader" and how to implement recovery concerning this type of hurt.

If we were to keep statistics, I'd say 90% of those we've spoken with or dealt with who did ONCE attend church but now do not attend church and are satisfied with their personal one-on-one relationship with God and will not "Assemble Together", (as this topic entails)... the 90% have been hurt in the past by an assembly, be it a church/denom/religion in general, or due to a specific person(s). Also, that remaining 10% that won't attend church, it's not any church or any person(s) that hurt them, it is about what "they" did in the past and they will not return to any assembly of any sort.

Such are the hurt(s) or strongholds out there in the world, people in need of love, guidance (proper knowledge/discipleship and action of this knowledge) and prayer to help them recover, move forward and reestablish fellowship with the Body.

Spiritually, it is usually this type of hurt that satan will use to continually build that stronghold to keep a sheep isolated from the flock, AWAY from a shepherd, and keep such a sheep where they are vulnerable and unable to mature.

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 05:53 PM
For certain, how we leave one situation affects how we enter the next.

It sure does! Big difference between the trusting, openmindedness with which I joined the first church and the caution and direct inquiries that I am extending to prospective pastors now! The church's overall philosophy has proved to be of equal importance with sound doctrine, and I didn't recognize that until I experienced the "musical pastors" rotation routine. I had foolishly assumed pastors were all committed to the flock, and would remain there for life. So I was downright shocked (and extremely upset) when the first one (who introduced me to the reality of the Holy Spirit's intimacy in my daily life) resigned.

Subsequent experience has left me concluding it is normative for pastors to PLAN on staying in a given church for only a few years, as they climb the ladder to bigger, greener fields. I have no interest in being under the "care" of another pastor like that. In fact, the church I find most attractive at this time is pastored by a man who has been there for 25 years, but still exudes enthusiasm, energy, and genuine pastoral concern for his flock. The drawback...that church is 17 miles away and the drive is dangerous. At my age, this is no small consideration, especially since I am not one to attend only on a Sunday morning service, but practically live at the church, serving.

I also tend to believe that God didn't place me in my own neighborhood without making it possible for me to link arms with other believers right here where I live. So....more prayer, please!

ChangedByHim
Oct 28th 2015, 06:12 PM
It sure does! Big difference between the trusting, openmindedness with which I joined the first church and the caution and direct inquiries that I am extending to prospective pastors now! The church's overall philosophy has proved to be of equal importance with sound doctrine, and I didn't recognize that until I experienced the "musical pastors" rotation routine. I had foolishly assumed pastors were all committed to the flock, and would remain there for life. So I was downright shocked (and extremely upset) when the first one (who introduced me to the reality of the Holy Spirit's intimacy in my daily life) resigned.

Subsequent experience has left me concluding it is normative for pastors to PLAN on staying in a given church for only a few years, as they climb the ladder to bigger, greener fields. I have no interest in being under the "care" of another pastor like that. In fact, the church I find most attractive at this time is pastored by a man who has been there for 25 years, but still exudes enthusiasm, energy, and genuine pastoral concern for his flock. The drawback...that church is 17 miles away and the drive is dangerous. At my age, this is no small consideration, especially since I am not one to attend only on a Sunday morning service, but practically live at the church, serving.

I also tend to believe that God didn't place me in my own neighborhood without making it possible for me to link arms with other believers right here where I live. So....more prayer, please!

Pastoring can be a difficult life in many ways that most will never understand. There could be valid reasons your pastor resigned that go beyond climbing the ladder. He has to follow the voice of the Spirit too.

That said, wherever you go will be super-blessed by your participation.

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 06:18 PM
This is so true. My wife and I have just recently begun to develop and add a new lesson chapter to our Breaking the Chains book/lesson plan for the ministry. The chapter deals specifically with those who have been hurt by a "church" , "church related occurrence", or a church "leader" and how to implement recovery concerning this type of hurt.

If we were to keep statistics, I'd say 90% of those we've spoken with or dealt with who did ONCE attend church but now do not attend church and are satisfied with their personal one-on-one relationship with God and will not "Assemble Together", (as this topic entails)... the 90% have been hurt in the past by an assembly, be it a church/denom/religion in general, or due to a specific person(s). Also, that remaining 10% that won't attend church, it's not any church or any person(s) that hurt them, it is about what "they" did in the past and they will not return to any assembly of any sort.

Such are the hurt(s) or strongholds out there in the world, people in need of love, guidance (proper knowledge/discipleship and action of this knowledge) and prayer to help them recover, move forward and reestablish fellowship with the Body.

Spiritually, it is usually this type of hurt that satan will use to continually build that stronghold to keep a sheep isolated from the flock, AWAY from a shepherd, and keep such a sheep where they are vulnerable and unable to mature.

Great insights, brother! How does it go, "Twice bitten, thrice shy?" Or something like that. The worst thing for me has been the challenge of entrusting myself to the oversight of another group of leaders, when it is so clear to me that these leaders come and go, and the "vision" always seems to change in the same, culture-emulating and materialistic direction that is spelled out in the how-to books.

I don't get why it's considered to be "church-hopping" for the members to come and go, but fine and dandy for the leadership!

Ezekiel 34 well describes the reality, and I've found considerable comfort resting under the direct care of my Great Shepherd, just as that passage promises. Perhaps that is also why I'm in no great hurry to force the issue. :)

David's great psalm 23 has never meant more to me.

"The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with oil; My cup overflows. Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever."

Not only do I bask in the Lord's personal care, but He has also well blessed me with other believers and a personal ministry (now in its 10th year) with whom I am "doing life together", so I'm not actually alone in any sense of the word. Dear brethren from all three of the churches that I left are in the three I'm evaluating at this time; they include elders who also left those churches and are numbered amongst my good friends.

But I know it's not only about me, my comfort, having everything my way according to convenience, etc. There's much work to be done and if everyone refused to commit to a local assembly, how would the Scripturally-defined church function in terms of order and authority? And corporate witness? There are some things only a "visible" church can do...such as hang out a welcome sign to the world so seekers can know where to drop in, as God leads them.

So I will join another assembly when God gives me the definite green light. By then, He will have healed me and I'll be stronger than ever....having properly assessed my own weaknesses and behavioral patterns as well. God works all things together for my good and for His glory!

Slug1
Oct 28th 2015, 06:44 PM
Great insights, brother! How does it go, "Twice bitten, thrice shy?" Or something like that. The worst thing for me has been the challenge of entrusting myself to the oversight of another group of leaders, when it is so clear to me that these leaders come and go, and the "vision" always seems to change in the same, culture-emulating and materialistic direction that is spelled out in the how-to books.

I don't get why it's considered to be "church-hopping" for the members to come and go, but fine and dandy for the leadership!

Ezekiel 34 well describes the reality, and I've found considerable comfort resting under the direct care of my Great Shepherd, just as that passage promises. Perhaps that is also why I'm in no great hurry to force the issue. :)

David's great psalm 23 has never meant more to me.

"The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with oil; My cup overflows. Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever."

Not only do I bask in the Lord's personal care, but He has also well blessed me with other believers and a personal ministry (now in its 10th year) with whom I am "doing life together", so I'm not actually alone in any sense of the word. Dear brethren from all three of the churches that I left are in the three I'm evaluating at this time; they include elders who also left those churches and are numbered amongst my good friends.

But I know it's not only about me, my comfort, having everything my way according to convenience, etc. There's much work to be done and if everyone refused to commit to a local assembly, how would the Scripturally-defined church function in terms of order and authority? And corporate witness? There are some things only a "visible" church can do...such as hang out a welcome sign to the world so seekers can know where to drop in, as God leads them.

So I will join another assembly when God gives me the definite green light. By then, He will have healed me and I'll be stronger than ever....having properly assessed my own weaknesses and behavioral patterns as well. God works all things together for my good and for His glory!Hooah!

While discussing the topic of church attendance and the avoidance of church due to a hurt in the past, I can easily associate the following example to the topic..., "who here has been burned once, twice, three times by the opposite gender while dating or even in marriage, can we be real... and they say to themselves, NEVER again?? But then, in time work through the hurt(s) and find a person who they've been with and married after saying never again?"

As CbH pointed out, the relationship with God is why a person finds the need to be a member of an assembly and if a hurt in the past prevents attendance, a solution IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE, just as a solution was worked out and dating and even marriage was possible after saying, NEVER again.

When a person cannot work out a hurt and refuses to attend church and the reason is due to the hurt from a past church, leader, etc... again, what was done, did they surrender their hurt of that church experience the same way as the hurt of the past concerning those they dated or were married to, such a an adulterous husband/wife and the marriage ended, but once surrendering the hurt to God, they were able to begin dating and eventually able to marry again.

Well, Jesus is never adulterous so a person's marriage to Christ, and thus being a member of the Body of Christ, any hurt is NEVER from Christ so the reason to attend an assembly was never truly changed. But we are human, a hurt blinds us to this fact and the hurt keeps us fro even attending church, BUT when surrendered to Him and He can work it out so they can attend an assembly.

Just like they can surrender any relationsional hurt to God, He help them work it out, then they can find peace in reengaging the opposite sex in dating and possible marriage again.

Make sense?

I'll even push this one step further... I've worked with people who found peace in a terrible marriage because they began to turn all over to God. Sometimes the consequences were so great, the marriage ended, usually due to the spouse being adulterous and left, but the one remaining, still "at" peace because of how God was covering them as they held to Him.

Well, get this... it's been the same for those in a terrible church, or under a terrible leader in a church. They are at peace, continue to attend the assembly despite the turmoil and actually remain in the church despite any all consequences that happen(ed) and they still remain in the church. I can say this from personal experience.

Why... cause of God.

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 06:49 PM
Hooah!

While discussing the topic of church attendance and the avoidance of church due to a hurt in the past, I can easily associate the following example to the topic..., "who here has been burned once, twice, three times by the opposite gender while dating or even in marriage, can we be real... and they say to themselves, NEVER again?? But then, in time work through the hurt(s) and find a person who they've been with and married after saying never again?"

As CbH pointed out, the relationship with God is why a person finds the need to be a member of an assembly and if a hurt in the past prevents attendance, a solution IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE, just as a solution was worked out and dating and even marriage was possible after saying, NEVER again.

When a person cannot work out a hurt and refuses to attend church and the reason is due to the hurt from a past church, leader, etc... again, what was done, did they surrender their hurt of that church experience the same way as the hurt of the past concerning those they dated or were married to, such a an adulterous husband/wife and the marriage ended, but once surrendering the hurt to God, they were able to begin dating and eventually able to marry again.

Well, Jesus is never adulterous so a person's marriage to Christ, and thus being a member of the Body of Christ, any hurt is NEVER from Christ so the reason to attend an assembly was never truly changed. But we are human, a hurt blinds us to this fact and the hurt keeps us fro even attending church, BUT when surrendered to Him and He can work it out so they can attend an assembly.

Just like they can surrender any relationsional hurt to God, He help them work it out, then they can find peace in reengaging the opposite sex in dating and possible marriage again.

Make sense?

Perfect sense! In fact, I'm chuckling about your analogy, because it was when I gave up men completely (due to the kind of hurts you describe) that God sent me my husband. :)

Slug1
Oct 28th 2015, 06:54 PM
Perfect sense! In fact, I'm chuckling about your analogy, because it was when I gave up men completely (due to the kind of hurts you describe) that God sent me my husband. :)Hooah!

I made an edit too...

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 07:14 PM
Hooah!

I made an edit too...

I went back and read it. I used to think it to be my duty to remain in the assembly, regardless of where the leadership was going...but I could not ignore the Holy Spirit's nagging instruction about what was actually going on there. Ezekiel 33-34 was huge, as was Jeremiah 5-7 and 1 King 13.

God appoints watchmen on the wall, and these passages all demonstrate that reality. God showed me the mingling of the holy and the profane, idolatry, and false shepherds. He told me to watch, to wait, to warn, and when to leave and how to go about it. There just isn't any doubt in my mind about any of that, and my path for obedience was paved, sometimes in rather supernaturally-startling ways.

Because I loved the brethren and thoroughly enjoyed serving in these churches, my heart's desire was to stay, no matter what. I even tried to rationalize it by considering evangelism TO the church to be a proper role for the faithful (which I'm sure you've seen being advocated in cyber-discussions, somewhere along the way.)

However, "come out of her my people" is a very strong admonition and one that must be obeyed. When the leaders are driving the flock over a cliff, I think the watchmen on the wall have a humongous duty to warn and then to leave, when the warnings go unheeded.

Oh...and when I say "evangelism TO the church", I'm talking about open discussion with other leaders, not stirring up division in the flock. But I also find it seriously troubling when leaders insist that the flock may not discuss their own direct circumstances with anyone else who is sharing the same experience, without that being labelled as "divisive." Such an attitude of distrust of the flock is typical of cult leadership, not servant leaders.

Slug1
Oct 28th 2015, 07:24 PM
I went back and read it. I used to think it to be my duty to remain in the assembly, regardless of where the leadership was going...but I could not ignore the Holy Spirit's nagging instruction about what was actually going on there. Ezekiel 33-34 was huge, as was Jeremiah 5-7 and 1 King 13.

God appoints watchmen on the wall, and these passages all demonstrate that reality. God showed me the mingling of the holy and the profane, idolatry, and false shepherds. He told me to watch, to wait, to warn, and when to leave and how to go about it. There just isn't any doubt in my mind about any of that, and my path for obedience was paved, sometimes in rather supernaturally-startling ways.

Because I loved the brethren and thoroughly enjoyed serving in these churches, my heart's desire was to stay, no matter what. I even tried to rationalize it by considering evangelism TO the church to be a proper role for the faithful (which I'm sure you've seen being advocated in cyber-discussions, somewhere along the way.)

However, "come out of her my people" is a very strong admonition and one that must be obeyed. When the leaders are driving the flock over a cliff, I think the watchmen on the wall have a humongous duty to warn and then to leave, when the warnings go unheeded.Hooah!

I was one told by God to stay... I wrestled against God with this for a time too.

I lost.

It was funny how I lost... I tore a shirt once doing some yard work during this time and I yanked at it and a perfect rectangle shaped piece of cloth tore free. God began to minister to me through the scriptures of when David was under the authority of King Saul, EVEN WHEN Saul was completely in the flesh and striking out against David. David cut the piece of cloth from Saul's clothes in the cave...

Well, I was under the authority of a pastor who started out as anointed but was at that time, lashing out completely in the flesh.

David stayed the course and God was telling me to STAY THE COURSE and remain in the church.

To this day, that piece of cloth is in my Bible.

I also bear what I'd call scars from that period of time too as the church was practically destroyed by the pastors actions... then he abandoned the church and up and left all the damage behind him.

I learned a lot.

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 07:30 PM
Hooah!

I was one told by God to stay... I wrestled against God with this for a time too.

I lost.

It was funny how I lost... I tore a shirt once doing some yard work during this time and I yanked at it and a perfect rectangle shaped piece of cloth tore free. God began to minister to me through the scriptures of when David was under the authority of King Saul, EVEN WHEN Saul was completely in the flesh and striking out against David. David cut the piece of cloth from Saul's clothes in the cave...

Well, I was under the authority of a pastor who started out as anointed but was at that time, lashing out completely in the flesh.

David stayed the course and God was telling me to STAY THE COURSE and remain in the church.

To this day, that piece of cloth is in my Bible.

I also bear what I'd call scars from that period of time too as the church was practically destroyed by the pastors actions... then he abandoned the church and up and left all the damage behind him.

I learned a lot.

So did you yell "Hooah!" when you perceived that? I can see it now! :lol:

Did the pastor come around, then?

Slug1
Oct 28th 2015, 07:34 PM
So did you yell "Hooah!" when you perceived that? I can see it now! :lol:

I am always finding something to Hooah about :lol:

I will tell you this... when God speaks, He is so very clear.


Did the pastor come around, then?No... :(

I pray for reconciliation. I've forgiven, some here have not and are still hurting. Some still have not returned but do at least attend an assembly in other churches.

The flock was scattered and while some remained, some have returned, not all have of that flock when that pastor was here. Some have found peace, forgiveness and God is keeping them where they are now and they serve Him well. We are one Body.

joined2him
Oct 28th 2015, 07:51 PM
I am always finding something to Hooah about :lol:

I will tell you this... when God speaks, He is so very clear.

No... :(

I pray for reconciliation. I've forgiven, some here have not and are still hurting.

I know exactly what you mean. When I first came to Christ, I attended a church (same denomination as my parents, of course), for a year. My spirit absolutely could not rest under that pastor's leadership; I was extremely vexed by his attitude toward women and by the behavior of his teenaged children. I struggled and struggled with this bad attitude that I perceived in myself, and finally decided there was no hope for me; I just couldn't "submit" to this man's male chauvinism as I perceived it. So I left and didn't return to church for 7 years. The Holy Spirit wouldn't let me rest in that vacation, though...

When I finally decided to obey the again, nagging, conviction of the Spirit, He led me directly to an exhaustive examination of the Scripture's instruction regarding the importance of being in a Church. I wound up with a list of seven important reasons every believer should be plugged into group activities, and the most important one was to SERVE, not to be served. That was a game-changing concept for me, so back I went.

I then decided I didn't need to commit to just one assembly ('cause I didn't ever want to be subjected to the personal dictates and attitudes of one man again)...so I visited different churches each week. Don't exactly know how I had it rationalized that I could serve in each of them, but hey...I was a baby Christian without much understanding. :)

I liked one of them more than the others and was on my way to visit there one Sunday, but realized that I was going to be late. I HATE walking in late, anywhere, let alone in a new group where I already felt conspicuous. I was stopped at a red light when I realized this, and it happened to be only a few blocks from the assembly I'd left 7 years previously. So I decided to stop in to say "hello" to my old friends there, and to trust God in dealing with that pastor.

To my shock, that pastor was no longer there. He'd been replaced by a Holy-Spirit led pastor who had a curious mix of Pentecostal/Church of Christ upbringing. The former pastor had been caught in an adulterous affair that was known to the public, with ensuing divorce, and his kids were also divorced and caught up in sinful activities that brought shame upon their Christian witness.

So my instincts proved to be right, and God led me all the way through the desert. I learned more from that new pastor than I'd ever even heard mentioned, regarding the personal indwelling and leading of the Holy Spirit. I absolutely adored him and his family.

And five years later, he resigned. I felt like I'd been whacked in the face with a 2 x 4! I now realize I'd come to rely too much upon him to keep me moving forward, and haven't repeated that mistake.

But I have no doubt whatsoever that I made the right decision when I left the first time.