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Willows
Nov 4th 2015, 06:26 PM
Adam was going to sin, he was sold under sin, because God was about to do battle with Satan the devil.
Who sold him to sin? God? God forbid!


Exactly, according to the word of God, how was God going to win this battle against Satan the devil? You tell me.
A righteous man.

This was His intent with Adam but he sinned. To man without sin was given dominion and authority, so how do you say Adam was sold by God to sin? God needed a man, created lower than angels, to not sin to defeat Satan, taking the authority that was given him through righteousness. God did not create, ordain, or want and desire sin percho. That's contrary to everything we know of Him.
I see Job as a foreshadow of this righteous man (Ac 7:52, 3:14; Job 1:8, 2:3),
who for a greater glory (Heb 12:2; Php 2:9-11; 2Co 4:17; Job 42:10-16)
was sorely afflicted by God (Is 53:3-5; Job 1:21, 2:10), and
who lost (or gave up) everything (Php 2:5-8; Job 1:13-19)
because of a controversy between God and Satan (Ge 3:15; Jn 12:31; Mt 12:29; Lk 10:18-19; Job 1:8-12, 2:3-6),
who did not sin in what he said (2:10) by cursing God (1:11, 2:5, 9) or charging him with wrongdoing or unfairness (1:22),
whose righteousness was not overthrown by Satan (Jn 8:46; Job 2:9-10) and, therefore,
who was exalted to interede for his friends (Ac 2:33; Heb 7:25; Job 42:7-10).

Of course, as in Solomon, David, etc., human foreshadows only go so far, and while Job did not sin,
he did feel he had a right to an explanation, which God owed him (9:16, 10:2, 13:3, 22-23), and that is presumption, and
he did complain because God afflicted the righteous but not the wicked (chp 24, cf v.12), and that is discrediting God's justice (40:8).

And Job was never told why by God.
It is only in the light of the gospel that we see the bigger picture.

I see in the book of Job God's purpose in creation.

God has decreed a controversy with Satan in which his goodness, love, mercy, etc. will be glorified through the OT and NT saints who believe
in the Promise--Jesus Christ, who are the one olive tree whose roots are the holy patriarchs; i.e., the church (Heb 12:18-24; Eph 3:8-11),
a controversy in which God's justice, righteousness, holiness, etc. will also be glorified by overcoming Satan in such a way that
he will no longer dispute (Job1:9-11; Zec 3:1-2; Rev 12:10), but will be obliged to agree, that God is just and right (Ro 3:4; Php 2:10-11).

For God is Judge and, therefore, he will not only execute justice, but he will oblige all to agree with it (Php 2:10-11),
because God will be cleared and vindicated of any charges of injustice when he judges (Ro 3:4).

Does anyone else see that?

Willows
Nov 5th 2015, 02:41 PM
Adam was created to die and bring the power of Satan the devil upon man.
He was sold under, sin.
Jesus did battle with and defeated Satan without the power of the devil upon him.

The power of the devil upon man is not necessary to defeat Satan.

It is the sufficiency of God's righteousness in the man whom God appoints to do battle with Satan that is necessary to defeat Satan.
But the man must bring that righteousness to bear upon Satan, as Jesus did when he was tempted by Satan, and as Job likewise did.

Willows
Nov 5th 2015, 02:45 PM
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Death was absolutely necessary. Before the foundation of the world it was going to be through the blood, the shed blood, of the Christ.
The works of the devil, is death. When the works of the devil, death, the last enemy is destroyed the devil will also be destroyed.
Satan in himself does not have the power of death.
Death came from disobedience to God, it was not related to Satan.

Satan "has the power of death" only in the sense that he leads men to sin, which is the cause of death.

The devil's work was to challenge the sufficiency of the righteousness of Adam to overcome him,
just as he challenged the sufficiency of the righteousness of Job to overcome him.

Job had no choice in suffering the loss of everything.
Adam had a choice in suffering separation from and the loss of Eve, and he chose not to suffer that loss.
Adam was not deceived as was Eve, he chose not to suffer the loss of Eve.

Jesus chose to suffer loss, as Job had suffered loss, without having a choice.

percho
Nov 5th 2015, 03:28 PM
Satan in himself does not have the power of death.
Death came from disobedience to God, it was not related to Satan.

Satan "has the power of death" only in the sense that he leads men to sin, which is the cause of death.

The devil's work was to challenge the sufficiency of the righteousness of Adam to overcome him,
just as he challenged the sufficiency of the righteousness of Job to overcome him.

Job had no choice in suffering the loss of everything.
Adam had a choice in suffering separation from and the loss of Eve, and he chose not to suffer that loss.
Adam was not deceived as was Eve, he chose not to suffer the loss of Eve.

Jesus chose to suffer loss, as Job had suffered the loss, without any choice.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

What do you think was the sin that the devil sinneth from the beginning? In your opinion, did the sin of the devil precede the creation of Adam? Did the sin of the devil precede, Gen 1:3 "Let there be light," 2 Cor 4:6 that is for the light to shine out of the darkness? What are the works of the devil? Did he do any work prior to, "Let there be light"?

Did the sin of the devil bring death to anything?

Willows
Nov 5th 2015, 03:54 PM
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

What do you think was the sin that the devil sinneth from the beginning? In your opinion, did the sin of the devil precede the creation of Adam? Did the sin of the devil precede, Gen 1:3 "Let there be light," 2 Cor 4:6 that is for the light to shine out of the darkness? What are the works of the devil? Did he do any work prior to, "Let there be light"?

Did the sin of the devil bring death to anything?
We assume the devil's fall occurred before the creation of Adam.

That being the case, the devil was a rebellious sinner before Adam was created.

The sin of the devil's rebellion in heaven did not bring death to material creation.
Only the consequences of Adam's sin did that (Ge 2:17).

The works of the devil are all works of unrighteousness on the earth.

percho
Nov 5th 2015, 10:06 PM
... U N C L E ....

Willows
Nov 5th 2015, 11:02 PM
... U N C L E ....
. . . . :lol:

I hope that means you understand.:)

Noeb
Nov 6th 2015, 02:03 AM
I hope so too. Percho, Adam wasn't joined to the old man (flesh) and separated from God -Rom 7:1-5, at least not before he sinned. He was 'in the Spirit'. In the flesh means in this world without God, which is what sold under sin means. In the Spirit means in this world with God. These of course are just very basic descriptions of few words, but just making the point. You are using sold under sin completely out of context, because the description is an individual that can't do good even though they want to, and that's not a description of Adam. We are slaves to sin because we are joined to the old man -not God/law of the old man/law in my members. Satan only 'has the power of death over' those that have sinned, else he would have had power over Jesus as well. See Satan appearing before the Lord pointing out the sin of men asking if he can devour them. He couldn't devour or touch Job because he was righteous. So obviously he couldn't devour or touch Adam either. Adam had dominion over Satan and was commanded to exercise this dominion and subdue Satan -all the works of His hands - everything in the earth.

Willows
Nov 6th 2015, 02:20 PM
I hope so too. Percho, Adam wasn't joined to the old man (flesh) and separated from God -Rom 7:1-5, at least not before he sinned. He was 'in the Spirit'. In the flesh means in this world without God, which is what sold under sin means. In the Spirit means in this world with God. These of course are just very basic descriptions of few words, but just making the point. You are using sold under sin completely out of context, because the description is an individual that can't do good even though they want to, and that's not a description of Adam. We are slaves to sin because we are joined to the old man -not God/law of the old man/law in my members. Satan only 'has the power of death over' those that have sinned, else he would have had power over Jesus as well. See Satan appearing before the Lord pointing out the sin of men asking if he can devour them. He couldn't devour or touch Job because he was righteous. So obviously he couldn't devour or touch Adam either. Adam had dominion over Satan and was commanded to exercise this dominion and subdue Satan -all the works of His hands - everything in the earth.
Adam was not deceived. . .he chose not to exercise his dominion over Satan as Job did, so as not to suffer loss/separation from Eve.
He chose the creature over the Creator, yes?

What a fall!

Noeb
Nov 6th 2015, 06:32 PM
Yes. I did say "You are using sold under sin completely out of context, because the description is an individual that can't do good even though they want to, and that's not a description of Adam."

Willows
Nov 7th 2015, 02:47 PM
Yes. I did say "You are using sold under sin completely out of context, because the description is an individual that can't do good even though they want to, and that's not a description of Adam."
Mankind was sold to sin by Adam.

BrianW
Nov 7th 2015, 03:11 PM
Adam failed the obedience test just as God knew he would. Remember, God had His redemption plan in place before the world was ever created. It's not like He created Eden and Adam and Eve, they messed up and ate of the tree of life and God said "Uh oh! Better come up with a new plan!"

Willows
Nov 7th 2015, 03:36 PM
Adam failed the obedience test just as God knew he would. Remember, God had His redemption plan in place before the world was ever created. It's not like He created Eden and Adam and Eve, they messed up and ate of the tree of life and God said "Uh oh! Better come up with a new plan!"
Just as the fallen angels failed theirs in heaven.

Job passed his obedience test, though not completely without fault, for he was guilty of presumption and discrediting God's justice.

Jesus is the only one who passed it perfectly.

percho
Nov 7th 2015, 05:48 PM
Just as the fallen angels failed theirs in heaven.

Job passed his obedience test, though not completely without fault, for he was guilty of presumption and discrediting God's justice.

Jesus is the only one who passed it perfectly.

Had the first [U]man[U] Adam passed, "it," would he have been the Son of God?

Before the foundation of the world was the Christ, the Son of the living God, who would bring redemption from death, going to do so by being born of woman?

Why was the woman taken from the man who had been created in the image of his creator, God? Just for the purpose of replenishing the earth or as a help meet, the means by which man's redemption could come in the flesh? Exactly how was Eve, "help meet," to Adam? she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Thanks for the help, honey.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18

Was the purpose of the creation of man in the image of God, yet in the temporary flesh, that, the Son of God, the Christ, the Anointed, could come in the flesh, learn obedience through sufferings, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, that is sinless and by being raised from the dead, to die no more, no more to return to corruption, would bring redemption to the body?

Was that foreordained before Adam was created and woman was taken from him?

If Adam had resisted the devil there would have been no works of the devil to destroy. Adam would have been just as good as the Son of God and he would have brought forth only sons of God.

Willows
Nov 7th 2015, 09:07 PM
Had the first man Adam passed, "it," would he have been the Son of God?
No, but he and his descendants would have been righteous adopted sons of God.


Before the foundation of the world was the Christ, the Son of the living God, who would bring redemption from death, going to do so by being born of woman?

Why was the woman taken from the man who had been created in the image of his creator, God? Just for the purpose of replenishing the earth or as a help meet, the means by which man's redemption could come in the flesh? Exactly how was Eve, "help meet," to Adam? she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Thanks for the help, honey.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18

Was the purpose of the creation of man in the image of God, yet in the temporary flesh, that, the Son of God, the Christ, the Anointed, could come in the flesh, learn obedience through sufferings, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, that is sinless and by being raised from the dead, to die no more, no more to return to corruption, would bring redemption to the body?

Was that foreordained before Adam was created and woman was taken from him?

If Adam had resisted the devil there would have been no works of the devil to destroy. Adam would have been just as good as the Son of God and he would have brought forth only sons of God.

ForHisglory
Nov 7th 2015, 09:32 PM
No, but he and his descendants would have been righteous adopted sons of God.
Actually scripture tells us Adam WAS the Son of God:
Luk 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Willows
Nov 7th 2015, 09:47 PM
Actually scripture tells us Adam WAS the Son of God:
Luk 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Yes, Adam originated with God, as Seth originated with Adam.

But Adam was not sired by God in the womb of a woman, as was Enos, Seth or Jesus.
Adam was made from dirt, without conception and physical inheritance of a human father.

ForHisglory
Nov 7th 2015, 10:22 PM
Yes, Adam originated with God, as Seth originated with Adam.

But Adam was not sired by God in the womb of a woman, as was Enos, Seth or Jesus.
Adam was made from dirt, without conception and physical inheritance of a human father.
So, Adam was a direct creation of God and was called Son of God.
Jesus though formed in a woman was also a direct creation of God (in bodily form).

Willows
Nov 8th 2015, 04:43 PM
So, Adam was a direct creation of God and was called Son of God.
Jesus though formed in a woman was also a direct creation of God (in bodily form).
Yes, in Hebrew genealogy he would be the son of God, but Adam did not originate in the normal manner, human conception in a womb and childhood.

awestruckchild
Nov 8th 2015, 05:18 PM
This has been absolutely fascinating to read and I thank you profusely for sharing it!

Willows
Nov 8th 2015, 05:22 PM
This has been absolutely fascinating to read and I thank you profusely for sharing it!
How kind of you. . .thank you so much!

Noeb
Nov 8th 2015, 11:34 PM
Mankind was sold to sin by Adam.
Do you think you are disagreeing with me?

Willows
Nov 10th 2015, 10:40 PM
Mankind was sold to sin by Adam.
Do you think you are disagreeing with me?
No, I was commenting on the "sold to sin."

ForHisglory
Nov 11th 2015, 09:51 PM
Yes, in Hebrew genealogy he would be the son of God, but Adam did not originate in the normal manner, human conception in a womb and childhood.
And nor did Jesus originate in the normal manner, not being born of man nor man's will.

Willows
Nov 12th 2015, 01:06 AM
Yes, in Hebrew genealogy Adam would be the son of God, but Adam did not originate in the normal manner, human conception in a womb and childhood.
And nor did Jesus originate in the normal manner, not being born of man nor man's will.
As is the same with us in the new birth.

Jesus was also not just man as Adam was just man.