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ForHisglory
Jan 10th 2016, 09:24 PM
If someone does you wrong, and then dies. Can you forgive them? Should you forgive them? Does it matter for them whether they were forgiven or not?

Slug1
Jan 10th 2016, 09:51 PM
If someone does you wrong, and then dies. Can you forgive them? Should you forgive them? Does it matter for them whether they were forgiven or not?

Forgiveness is for your eternal well being. Forgiveness can be given to free you of pain or heartache, so yes you can give forgiveness at anytime.

ForHisglory
Jan 10th 2016, 09:59 PM
Forgiveness is for your eternal well being. Forgiveness can be given to free you of pain or heartache, so yes you can give forgiveness at anytime.
So we can forgive them is one thing. But are they forgiven? And further does it matter to them whether they are forgiven or not?
Is forgiveness ONLY of value for the one who is doing the forgiving?

Gadgeteer
Jan 10th 2016, 11:14 PM
So we can forgive them is one thing.Slug is right. "Forgiveness" frees us from continued hurts.

There are two kinds of forgiveness --- if someone repents of what they did and ASKS us forgiveness, then we are required to forgive them, "seventy times seven".

If they do NOT repent, then there is another kind of forgiveness; we release them to God. And He either forgives them if they repent, or He takes care of them if they do not.


But are they forgiven?By us yes, but not by God unless they really repent.

Suppose you do not forgive them -- what will happen to you? You hold the anger in your heart, allowing yourself to be hurt over and over again. That's silly, isn't it? Either they didn't MEAN to hurt you, in which case it makes no sense to be angry over what they didn't mean, or they DID intend to hurt you and you choose for them to keep hurting you. No one deserves that much power!

Here is the secret to life --- you are not your own, you are "bought with a price"! You and I were born with nothing, we take nothing with us (except the people we love!), everything is on loan.

Anger and unforgiveness come from our sense of "right and wrong" --- so we are angry at someone who hurts us, and seek VALIDATION from another person. You know what? We don't need validation from anyone else! It is enough that JESUS loved us, and died for us! That is our self-worth, our validation, our whole esteem!

Those who hurt us -- are we better than them? We may never have murdered anyone, robbed or raped or done any number of heinous crimes -- but ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. We deserve Hell the same as anyone else. WE are forgiven so much, how can we hold to account someone who has injured us so little in comparison?


And further does it matter to them whether they are forgiven or not?
Is forgiveness ONLY of value for the one who is doing the forgiving?

It matters to YOU. Imagine your heart as a "vessel", trying to hold the acid of unforgiveness. I would MUCH rather have you as a brother with a whole heart, rather than your having a heart full of acid-holes.

:hug:

Slug1
Jan 10th 2016, 11:47 PM
What is scary, is sometimes a person literally had no intention to hurt another but because of PERCEPTION, a person feels hurt and because of their lack of willingness to forgive, are hurt for YEARS... for nothing, only because of a perception. The person who did nothing, but was perceived as being hurtful, has no clue and they go on, eventually die and the one who perceived a hurt due to a perception, hurt, angry, bitter, all the rest of their life.

I've counseled many over the years in this specific occurrence. Others were hurt but never forgave but some...

Such is a temptation by satan to get us to NOT forgive and we allow something that should have never even hurt us, ruin us.

CurtTN
Jan 10th 2016, 11:50 PM
So we can forgive them is one thing. But are they forgiven? And further does it matter to them whether they are forgiven or not?
Is forgiveness ONLY of value for the one who is doing the forgiving?

Is there any other purpose to forgiveness than to free the forgiver and restore peace? Does God not forgive us solely for His pleasure and purpose (and yes I know it is His promise but His plan and His purpose is the reason for His promise)?

Slug1
Jan 10th 2016, 11:51 PM
Is there any other purpose to forgiveness than to free the forgiver and restore peace? Does God not forgive us solely for His pleasure and purpose (and yes I know it is His promise but His plan and His purpose is the reason for His promise)?Love empowers a person to forgive.

keck553
Jan 11th 2016, 12:17 AM
Love empowers a person to forgive.

And forgiveness empowers a person to love

CurtTN
Jan 11th 2016, 12:32 AM
Love empowers a person to forgive.

I would also say that "grace" allows us to forgive. In the most awful cases where forgiveness is beyond human capacity it takes Gods grace and the real understanding of God's forgiveness of us that allows us to do what is humanly impossible.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2016, 01:05 AM
The better question is what to do when you wrong someone and they die.

Stonesoffire
Jan 11th 2016, 02:21 AM
That could eat at someone's conscience for a long time.

But, for Gods mercy.

Gadgeteer
Jan 11th 2016, 05:22 AM
What is scary, is sometimes a person literally had no intention to hurt another but because of PERCEPTION, a person feels hurt and because of their lack of willingness to forgive, are hurt for YEARS... for nothing, only because of a perception. The person who did nothing, but was perceived as being hurtful, has no clue and they go on, eventually die and the one who perceived a hurt due to a perception, hurt, angry, bitter, all the rest of their life.

I've counseled many over the years in this specific occurrence. Others were hurt but never forgave but some...

Such is a temptation by satan to get us to NOT forgive and we allow something that should have never even hurt us, ruin us.

Excellent post -- more motivation to turn it over to God.

We define ourselves NOT how people treat us, but how Jesus loved us and died for us. So we don't NEED for people to ask forgiveness. Holding a grudge is simply us putting ourselves above God.

In the passage in Matt6 commonly called "The Lord's Prayer", the one point Jesus thought important enough to EXPAND upon (after the prayer finished), is FORGIVENESS. For if we do not forgive others, neither can God forgive us.

If we belong to God, then this is not our world, not our lives, we belong to Him --- "bought with a price". Therefore they are not OUR OFFENSES, for no one can hurt US -- they can only hurt He to whom we belong.


"Inasmuch as you do it to the least of My brethren, you do it to ME!" Matt25

That is good, AND bad; whatever we do to others or others do to us, is really being done to Jesus.

We belong to Him, if He is our Lord and Master...

Suitor
Jan 11th 2016, 05:43 AM
And forgiveness empowers a person to love

Yes, Love empowers a person to forgive..

Forgiveness releases us.

Forgiveness yields power in the life of the one forgiven.

True Forgiveness results in a changed attitude toward another

What does it mean to forgive a person? In Thomas Watson's book on the Lord's Prayer he writes,

When have we truly forgiven? When we strive against all thoughts of revenge; when we will not do our enemies mischief, but wish well to them, grieve at their calamities, pray for, seek reconciliation with them, and show ourselves ready on all occasions to relieve them. This is gospel- forgiving.

http://www.unionchurch.com/archive/080998.html


Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Luke 17:3, 4 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Suitor
Jan 11th 2016, 05:51 AM
Excellent post -- more motivation to turn it over to God.

We define ourselves NOT how people treat us, but how Jesus loved us and died for us. So we don't NEED for people to ask forgiveness. Holding a grudge is simply us putting ourselves above God.

In the passage in Matt6 commonly called "The Lord's Prayer", the one point Jesus thought important enough to EXPAND upon (after the prayer finished), is FORGIVENESS. For if we do not forgive others, neither can God forgive us.

If we belong to God, then this is not our world, not our lives, we belong to Him --- "bought with a price". Therefore they are not OUR OFFENSES, for no one can hurt US -- they can only hurt He to whom we belong.


"Inasmuch as you do it to the least of My brethren, you do it to ME!" Matt25

That is good, AND bad; whatever we do to others or others do to us, is really being done to Jesus.

We belong to Him, if He is our Lord and Master...

I once read here a long time ago, " It is how we judge others, is our measure of love to God". And this maybe our judgement.

Suitor
Jan 11th 2016, 06:45 AM
The better question is what to do when you wrong someone and they die.


Very thought provoking Fenris.

Gadgeteer
Jan 11th 2016, 06:46 AM
I once read here a long time ago, " It is how we judge others, is our measure of love to God". And this maybe our judgement.

Evil seeks to corrupt Scriptures into --- "JUDGE NOT". In other words, don't you dare condemn us.

Those passages about "do not judge lest you be judged", are rebuking hypocrisy; those who judge others but do the very thing they condemn.

Was Hitler "bad"? Yes -- but that was a JUDGMENT. Was it wrong? There is a difference between assessment, and condemnation.

Jesus said "do not judge from appearance only, but judge with RIGHTEOUS judgment" -- and Paul said "the righteous man judges all things but is he himself judged by no one".

In fact, there is only One in the Universe who has the right to judge. Our command, is but to be vessels for Him -- that His judgment rather than being DESTRUCTIVE, reflects through us onto the world, to convict them of sin and lead them to Jesus and salvation.

That is to be our focus; not to "destroy", but to "build" and lead to His righteousness. The first is not love, the second is.

:-)

Gadgeteer
Jan 11th 2016, 06:55 AM
The better question is what to do when you wrong someone and they die.

We cannot waste time rebuking ourselves for things we cannot change. Inasmuch as we forgive OTHERS by releasing them to God, we must also forgive OURSELVES -- that is, releasing ourselves to God's forgiveness.

What is expected of us -- perfection? No -- for we all sin and fall short of God's glory, NO one is perfect.

...and yes, Matt5 says "be perfect even as HE is perfect". The secret to that, is we are perfect ONLY by His perfection IN and THROUGH us.

In Matt6 "if you do not forgive others, neither will God forgive us" -- the irony, is that WE OURSELVES are one whom we must forgive. If we do not, we reject God's forgiveness, and elevate ourselves above God. :eek:


Paul said (2Cor5:17) "if anyone be in Christ he is a new creation". To ask forgiveness (per 1Jn1:8-9), is to become a new person --- and a new person is a different person, who cannot be held accountable for what the OLD person did. This also applies to a wrong committed AFTER salvation -- for we are to CONTINUALLY lay aside the old man and put on the new (Eph4:24-27), therefore AS we walk in Him and His righteousness we also walk in forgiveness for EVERY sin we have done.

100% opposite to "license-to-sin", it is a somber and dedicated walk in Christ, always seeking His presence that we CONTINUE overcoming our sin. We stumble because we are weak and still have corrupt flesh; but stumbling then presents a choice -- two directions, one continuing where we stumbled (sin again), the other to rush to His feet begging not only forgiveness but His strength to prevail the next time. Sincerely seeking His presence THAT WE REALLY DO avoid sin.

Suitor
Jan 11th 2016, 07:03 AM
Evil seeks to corrupt Scriptures into --- "JUDGE NOT". In other words, don't you dare condemn us.

Those passages about "do not judge lest you be judged", are rebuking hypocrisy; those who judge others but do the very thing they condemn.

Was Hitler "bad"? Yes -- but that was a JUDGMENT. Was it wrong? There is a difference between assessment, and condemnation.

Jesus said "do not judge from appearance only, but judge with RIGHTEOUS judgment" -- and Paul said "the righteous man judges all things but is he himself judged by no one".

In fact, there is only One in the Universe who has the right to judge. Our command, is but to be vessels for Him -- that His judgment rather than being DESTRUCTIVE, reflects through us onto the world, to convict them of sin and lead them to Jesus and salvation.

That is to be our focus; not to "destroy", but to "build" and lead to His righteousness. The first is not love, the second is.

:-)

Amen. Very heartfelt. I grew from Holy Spirit through you.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Jan 11th 2016, 07:09 AM
"do not judge lest you be judged",

The scripture that every heathen knows and quotes (you find this out quick if you've ever spent any time street preaching the full counsel of God) lol. Then you become familiar with having to explain to them everything you just did :). Praise the LORD

Fenris
Jan 11th 2016, 02:07 PM
We cannot waste time rebuking ourselves for things we cannot change. Inasmuch as we forgive OTHERS by releasing them to God, we must also forgive OURSELVES -- that is, releasing ourselves to God's forgiveness.

This strikes me as being presumptuous. "Of course God will forgive me, that's what He's there for."

CadyandZoe
Jan 11th 2016, 02:37 PM
I have two questions related to this topic.

First it seems that many define "forgiveness" in terms of one's emotional state. That is, when one suffers injustice from another, one feels indignant toward the perpetrator. Forgiveness takes place when the injured party finds a way to overcome resentment. Now, while this seems to be a Christian idea, I wonder if it is a Biblical idea? Where did we get the idea that forgiveness indicates how I feel about someone?

Second, Jesus sets out to illustrate why God will not forgive a man if he is unwilling to forgive his brother with a parable about a king who first forgives a slave for a very large debt. But upon seeing that the slave would not forgive his fellow slave for a very small debt, the king decides not to forgive the first man. I find it interesting that Jesus employs an economic analogy for the concept of forgiveness and I wonder if we can use this same analogy to answer the OP?

Suppose a friend owed me $100 and my friend promised to pay me back as soon as possible. Suppose in the mean time, then, that my friend died. Would it truly be magnanimous of me to say at his funeral, "By the way, forget about the $100"?

keck553
Jan 11th 2016, 04:40 PM
I have two questions related to this topic.

First it seems that many define "forgiveness" in terms of one's emotional state. That is, when one suffers injustice from another, one feels indignant toward the perpetrator. Forgiveness takes place when the injured party finds a way to overcome resentment. Now, while this seems to be a Christian idea, I wonder if it is a Biblical idea? Where did we get the idea that forgiveness indicates how I feel about someone?

You bring up a good point. I agree what you describe is not a biblical idea. Forgiveness is assigned to the guilt, that is the action, not the person. This is a cultural issue.

Greek culture is a shame culture, while Judaism and Christianity is (Biblically) a guilt culture. There is a huge difference between the two, and we ought not mix the shame culture into our faith. While both cultural settings address behavior, they teach us completely different approaches to iniquity. In shame cultures, it matters what other people think of you, that leads the wrongdoer into emotional aspects of embarrassment, loss of face, etc. We become actors playing out a story, and the audience is present to boo or cheer our works. This is not a Christian principle for either good works or works of iniquity. In guilt cultures, it is the "inner voice" informs one they have done wrong. Some assign that to conscience, others to God's Spirit, but whatever the source, it is something people in guilt cultures are keenly aware of.

But the greatest difference is when we are caught. In shame cultures, the stain on our character can only be erased by a lot of time, or not at all. Guilt cultures make a distinction between the doer and the deed, thus guilt cultures focus on repentance, apology, restoration and forgiveness. This cleanses the character.

In shame cultures, the first rule of wrongdoing is not to get caught. If you are caught, then lie, bluff or appease your way out of it. Only admit your transgression when all alternatives have been exhausted, because the disgrace will hang over you like a dark cloud for a very long time. Shame has its place, but when it dominates our psyche, our reluctance to be honest grows exponentially.

We need to make it easier for people to be honest, and that is why forgiveness is so important, because it detaches the sin from the sinner. But forgiveness can only empower the transgressor if the transgressor can grasp onto the Judeo-Christian concept of atonement and restoration.

joined2him
Jan 11th 2016, 04:52 PM
If someone does you wrong, and then dies. Can you forgive them? Should you forgive them? Does it matter for them whether they were forgiven or not?

I believe there are two reasons for forgiving someone. (1) it releases YOU from the bitterness that comes with an expectation of the other paying a debt to balance the scales of justice again, and (2) it's the first step to restoration of a relationship.

When a person dies without repentance for his wrongdoing, I don't believe he does so having enjoyed a happy life devoid of consequences for the action. God does avenge, and just because we don't see it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. (Sleepless nights, health issues, and a host of other unpleasant things spring to mind.)

The Bible says that if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven yourself. It also says that when you are critical of others, you do the same things, and with what judgment you judge, you will be judged. So it's just a good idea to forgive....let it go and move on.

I do not think this pertains to salvation. We are forgiven our sins, but on this temporal plane, carrying around a truckload of unforgiveness will result in negative consequences to ourselves.

ForHisglory
Jan 11th 2016, 06:36 PM
Is there any other purpose to forgiveness than to free the forgiver and restore peace? Does God not forgive us solely for His pleasure and purpose (and yes I know it is His promise but His plan and His purpose is the reason for His promise)?
That is really part of my question. Forgiving someone frees the forgiver (the one who forgives). However my question is what about the one forgiven, are they forgiven even if they don't ask for forgiveness? Maybe they would have if they could have, but they are no longer around. Does your forgiving them, matter to them, even if you can't tell them.
Another way to put this is, when someone sins against you then that sin is a blot on their lives. If you forgive them of that sin, is that blot removed in any way?
I ask the question partly because Jesus said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." What they did obviously was something requiring forgiveness, for other wise Jesus would not have said it, yet they were also oblivious to some degree as to exactly the sin they were doing. So was Jesus' forgiveness of value? When they are judged by God, will that forgiveness of His matter?
Likewise does our forgiveness matter for other people?

ForHisglory
Jan 11th 2016, 06:42 PM
You bring up a good point. I agree what you describe is not a biblical idea. Forgiveness is assigned to the guilt, that is the action, not the person. This is a cultural issue.

Greek culture is a shame culture, while Judaism and Christianity is (Biblically) a guilt culture. There is a huge difference between the two, and we ought not mix the shame culture into our faith. While both cultural settings address behavior, they teach us completely different approaches to iniquity. In shame cultures, it matters what other people think of you, that leads the wrongdoer into emotional aspects of embarrassment, loss of face, etc. We become actors playing out a story, and the audience is present to boo or cheer our works. This is not a Christian principle for either good works or works of iniquity. In guilt cultures, it is the "inner voice" informs one they have done wrong. Some assign that to conscience, others to God's Spirit, but whatever the source, it is something people in guilt cultures are keenly aware of.

But the greatest difference is when we are caught. In shame cultures, the stain on our character can only be erased by a lot of time, or not at all. Guilt cultures make a distinction between the doer and the deed, thus guilt cultures focus on repentance, apology, restoration and forgiveness. This cleanses the character.

In shame cultures, the first rule of wrongdoing is not to get caught. If you are caught, then lie, bluff or appease your way out of it. Only admit your transgression when all alternatives have been exhausted, because the disgrace will hang over you like a dark cloud for a very long time. Shame has its place, but when it dominates our psyche, our reluctance to be honest grows exponentially.

We need to make it easier for people to be honest, and that is why forgiveness is so important, because it detaches the sin from the sinner. But forgiveness can only empower the transgressor if the transgressor can grasp onto the Judeo-Christian concept of atonement and restoration.
Methinks you are a bit confused. Judaism is as much, if not more a shame culture. Daniel expressed it well:
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It is Greek and Roman culture that was shameless, and more about guilt. I don't believe any culture is entirely one or the other, but generally the East is more shame based and the West more guilt based. the Bible has BOTH.

Not sure how it deals with what value forgiving someone is, for the person being forgiven.

Gadgeteer
Jan 11th 2016, 07:48 PM
This strikes me as being presumptuous. "Of course God will forgive me, that's what He's there for."

No, my friend -- not "presumptuous"; but humbly confident in His promises.


"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us; if we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to forgive us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:8-9

"Presumptuous" would (seem to me to) be indifferently sinning and counting on Him to "fix our tickets with the court".

'Tis a far different thing to realize the depth of our sin, the critical need for our sins to be REMOVED, and to have incredible gratefulness for His grace that did, what weak-us, could not.

Asking for forgiveness according to 1Jn1:9 is not a casual thing; it is the consequence of being grieved to the depths of our hearts that we DID sin -- because our sin offended He whom we love so much. Rather than blithely saying "Oh forgive me for this, and this and this and this", it is with sorrow (2Cor7!) that we literally throw ourselves at His feet in TEARS begging not only forgiveness, but the strength and closeness from Him that we NOT SIN AGAIN...

:cry:

Gadgeteer
Jan 11th 2016, 07:56 PM
I believe there are two reasons for forgiving someone. (1) it releases YOU from the bitterness that comes with an expectation of the other paying a debt to balance the scales of justice again, and (2) it's the first step to restoration of a relationship.

When a person dies without repentance for his wrongdoing, I don't believe he does so having enjoyed a happy life devoid of consequences for the action. God does avenge, and just because we don't see it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. (Sleepless nights, health issues, and a host of other unpleasant things spring to mind.)

The Bible says that if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven yourself. It also says that when you are critical of others, you do the same things, and with what judgment you judge, you will be judged. So it's just a good idea to forgive....let it go and move on.Nicely said, reps to you!


I do not think this pertains to salvation. We are forgiven our sins, but on this temporal plane, carrying around a truckload of unforgiveness will result in negative consequences to ourselves.

A "spirit of unforgiveness", isn't really someone close to God. In Matt18 is the story about the man who owed his lord 10,000 talents (considered to be more than $10,000,000!) --- the lord forgave him; but the man threw another servant in jail for a mere denarius (one day's wage!). The lord found out about it, and threw the FIRST man in prison until all of the 10,000 talents were absolved.

That is US -- we were forgiven 10,000 talents by God when Jesus saved us, how can we begrudge a mere denarius owed to us?

When Jesus said "If you do not forgive, neither will God forgive", it seems the same as in 1Jn4:20 "if you do not love your brother whom you have seen, you cannot love God whom you have not seen..."

What do you think?

:-)

Fenris
Jan 11th 2016, 08:00 PM
Asking for forgiveness according to 1Jn1:9 is not a casual thing; it is the consequence of being grieved to the depths of our hearts that we DID sin -- because our sin offended He whom we love so much. Rather than blithely saying "Oh forgive me for this, and this and this and this", it is with sorrow (2Cor7!) that we literally throw ourselves at His feet in TEARS begging not only forgiveness, but the strength and closeness from Him that we NOT SIN AGAIN...

Well this sounds very different from the talk about "forgiving ourselves".

Gadgeteer
Jan 11th 2016, 08:17 PM
Well this sounds very different from the talk about "forgiving ourselves".

What have you heard about that?

Fenris
Jan 11th 2016, 08:32 PM
What have you heard about that?

From you, in post 17.

Gadgeteer
Jan 11th 2016, 10:04 PM
From you, in post 17.

Hi, Fenris. We don't forgive ourselves apart from God's forgiveness. If we repent and ask forgiveness (per 1Jn1:9), He forgives us. What use would it do to then keep guilting ourselves over something for which we've asked forgiveness? Wouldn't that be --- rejecting God's forgiveness?

I'm proud of you for agreeing that "those who claim to follow God, do not walk in sin; repentance is required of us, or we won't be forgiven". That is what I perceived from your words...

:-)

Fenris
Jan 11th 2016, 10:23 PM
I'm proud of you for agreeing that "those who claim to follow God, do not walk in sin; repentance is required of us, or we won't be forgiven". That is what I perceived from your words...

:-)

I thought that went without saying.

keck553
Jan 12th 2016, 12:27 AM
Methinks you are a bit confused. Judaism is as much, if not more a shame culture. Daniel expressed it well:
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It is Greek and Roman culture that was shameless, and more about guilt. I don't believe any culture is entirely one or the other, but generally the East is more shame based and the West more guilt based. the Bible has BOTH.

Not sure how it deals with what value forgiving someone is, for the person being forgiven.

No, I thnk you are confused. Look up the Hebrew in Daniel and exposit it instead of just reading the english translation and assuming.

Also, study the Greek culture a little deeper. They were not "shameless."

ForHisglory
Jan 12th 2016, 12:53 AM
No, I thnk you are confused. Look up the Hebrew in Daniel and exposit it instead of just reading the english translation and assuming.
Also, study the Greek culture a little deeper. They were not "shameless."
I don't just read English words. Here though is the word translated as shame:
H2781
חֶרְפָּה
cherpâh
kher-paw'
From H2778; contumely, disgrace, the pudenda: - rebuke, reproach (-fully), shame.
It is as Daniel put, shame and contempt.
The Hebrew culture, like the Arab culture is very much an Honour/Shame culture.
This doesn't mean that it is entirely based on that, just as the Western world hasn't totally rejected it.
However here is a link you might find helpful:
http://honorshame.com/honor-shame-in-the-bible-6-hiding-places/

The Bible is replete with honour and shame statements.

So firstly, there is a clear aspect of this in the Bible.
As for the Greeks and Romans, they did indeed value honour and would try to keep their families honour. We find this even in the modern world, where it is wrapped up in principles and perception.
Is someone honest or honourable?
Are they guilty or shameful?
Often the two are directly connected, but at other times not at all.

You also need to grasp that for different peoples, there idea of what is shameful is different.

keck553
Jan 12th 2016, 12:59 AM
I'm just going to assume we don't understand this concept in the same way

CurtTN
Jan 12th 2016, 01:02 AM
That is really part of my question. Forgiving someone frees the forgiver (the one who forgives). However my question is what about the one forgiven, are they forgiven even if they don't ask for forgiveness? Maybe they would have if they could have, but they are no longer around. Does your forgiving them, matter to them, even if you can't tell them.
Another way to put this is, when someone sins against you then that sin is a blot on their lives. If you forgive them of that sin, is that blot removed in any way?
I ask the question partly because Jesus said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." What they did obviously was something requiring forgiveness, for other wise Jesus would not have said it, yet they were also oblivious to some degree as to exactly the sin they were doing. So was Jesus' forgiveness of value? When they are judged by God, will that forgiveness of His matter?
Likewise does our forgiveness matter for other people?

To the extent that you have the authority to forgive, they are forgiven. If the act is a sin against you then you have the authority to forgive it. If it is also a sin against God, then that forgiveness comes from God not you. Sometimes we think we are wronged when in fact we are being trained or rebuked. An old friend advised me to offer this when we don't understand why someone would do or say something hurtful. "Lord, bless them according to their works." This way if their work was evil, we can forgive and let God take care of the punishment, but if the act was from God for your benefit you still forgive and let God reward them for being faithful.

I think there are many times when people commit sin and are oblivious to it and maybe it was unintentional but the pain and hurt is still there. This takes us back to the fact that forgiveness is really for the forgiver. The Romans never realized they were forgiven or even knew they needed it. All in all God I am sure is pleased when we do as Jesus did and do it with the same heart. Hope I have added to the discussion.

divaD
Jan 12th 2016, 01:24 AM
I ask the question partly because Jesus said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."



What I find interesting here, these weren't even seeking repentance apparently, yet Jesus asks the Father to forgive them. While OTOH, take Judas. After what he did he tried to repent but it was of no avail. There was no forgivenance for what he did. Could he have essentially blasphemed the Holy Spirit then, since we are told there is no forgivenance for this in this age or the age to come? Unfortunately I'm drifting a bit from the OP by bringing this up. But this is what came to mind per what you said in regards to what you said here..."I ask the question partly because Jesus said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

keck553
Jan 12th 2016, 01:40 AM
You also need to grasp that for different peoples, there idea of what is shameful is different.

Ok, I am going to try this one last time.....

Forgiveness does not appear in every culture. David Konstan, in "Before Forgiveness: the origins of a moral idea", argues that there was no concept of forgiveness in the literature of the ancient Greeks. But there was a substitute - "appeasement of anger."

Basically "appeasement of anger" suggests that when someone does harm to someone else, the victim is angry and seeks revenge. This presents a danger to the offender and they will try to get the victim to calm down and move on. Or they might suggest that, while they did the actual harm, it was beyond their control (blame a circumstances or someone else). Or perhaps the offender will appeal to his past good works as mitigation. If this doesn't work, the offender will plead, beg or perform some act of self debasement or humiliation to posture for mercy. What the offender is basically telling the victim is "I am no longer a threat." Greek has a word for this - "sugnome," which is sometimes translated as "forgiveness," but it really means exculpation. It means that if the victim relents, it is because they "understand" why the offended committed the offense, or perhaps they reason out that they no longer need to seek revenge because the offender has shown deference and proper respect to the victim and restored his/her dignity. In other words the entire process is just basic crisis management.

Forgiveness is not even close to this model. The same author, Konstan argues that the first real appearance of forgiveness is in the Hebrew Bible in end the latter part of Genesis, the forgiver being Joseph.

In Judaism and Christianity, the ethic of guilt reigns as opposed to the ethics of shame. Again shame attaches to the person, while guilt attaches to the act. In shame cultures, the offender is stained, defiled. In guilt cultures what is wrong is not the doer, but the deed (not the sinner but the sin). The offender retains their intrinsic worth. But the wrongful act has to somehow be put right. That is why guilt cultures include processes of repentance, atonement and forgiveness.

Forgiveness can only exist in a culture where repentance exists. Repentance presupposes that we are free and morally responsible creations who are capable of change, especially when it comes to recognizing that something we have done is wrong and we are responsible for it and must never do it again. This model simply did not exist in Greek culture. Greece was a shame and honor culture that pivoted on the concepts of character and fate. Judaism and Christianity is a repentance and forgiveness culture that pivots on will and choice.