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Aviyah
Jan 25th 2016, 06:22 AM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

Aristarkos
Jan 25th 2016, 06:48 AM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

The body in itself is not sinful:

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Would the Holy Spirit live in a sinful environment?

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Would a sinful body be called a temple?

The flesh itself is not sinful, living by the flesh is. So the answer to your question is, no we are not punished because of our living in the flesh.

Aristarkos

chad
Jan 25th 2016, 09:04 AM
No, imo people are punished because they refuse to ask God to forgive them of their sins. God has made a way. It's up to people to believe in his Son (Christ Jesus) and to ask for forgiveness.



Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

Lonman59
Jan 25th 2016, 10:45 AM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

did you euer wish you had not cursed yourselfe? punishment, you would know that was the case. sort of like meant. ignorance, hie family.

Aviyah
Jan 25th 2016, 01:49 PM
The body in itself is not sinful:

Would the Holy Spirit live in a sinful environment?

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Would a sinful body be called a temple?

The flesh itself is not sinful, living by the flesh is. So the answer to your question is, no we are not punished because of our living in the flesh.

Aristarkos

What is your opinion of Romans 7?

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not... For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? (Romans 7:18, 22-24)

Aijalon
Jan 25th 2016, 04:03 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

Simply, yes.

The punishment is death, and we are subject to it regardless of how we feel, or what we've done.

The curse of death, is disease, but also violence. Death comes to all men, and it is unavoidable. The only cure is the resurrection.

Noeb
Jan 25th 2016, 04:15 PM
The curse was put on the ground not Adam. Punished though by removal from the tree of life, so all die. The body is not sinful. No part of man is sinful in nature.

Noeb
Jan 25th 2016, 04:21 PM
What is your opinion of Romans 7?

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not... For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? (Romans 7:18, 22-24)He wanted to do good as well, so why not say he had a good nature?

Aviyah
Jan 25th 2016, 05:42 PM
He wanted to do good as well, so why not say he had a good nature?

He expands in v. 22-24 - the "inner man" is what wants to do good, but there is "nothing good" which dwells in the flesh (v. 18).

Noeb
Jan 25th 2016, 06:30 PM
He expands in v. 22-24 - the "inner man" is what wants to do good, but there is "nothing good" which dwells in the flesh (v. 18).True, so there's good and bad in his nature, right?

Aviyah
Jan 25th 2016, 06:50 PM
True, so we there's good and bad in his nature, right?

There is wholly bad in the flesh, which is the subject I'm on at the moment.

chad
Jan 25th 2016, 06:55 PM
Romans 7:18

(Rom 7:18 KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Imo, Paul is refering to the carnality of the flesh. The part of us, that without repentance and being born again of the spirit is the unregenerated spirit within us (The flesh and it’s carnality). The body and mind that desires after things not of the spirit of God.

It desires to fulfil the worldly passions of the ungenerated (born again) spirit. Paul writes in Romans 7:18, in my flesh dwelleth no good thing.

Carnal G4559. sarkikos, sar-kee-kos'; from G4561; pertaining to flesh, i.e. (by extens.) bodily, temporal, or (by impl.) animal, unregenerate:--carnal, fleshly.


In Galatians 5, Paul writes:

Becuase the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

(Gal 5:17 KJV) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Paul then lists the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:9-21 (Some translations write the acts of the sinful nature instead of the works of the flesh).


Paul Writes in Romans 8

(Rom 8:7 KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rom 8:8 KJV) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

In Romans 8:7 Carnal is translated into the greek word Sarx (Flesh)

Carnal G4561. sarx, sarx; prob. from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extens.) the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by impl.) human nature (with its frailties [phys. or mor.] and passions), or (spec.) a human being (as such):--carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).



(Rom 8:12 KJV) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13 KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 8:14 KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Noeb
Jan 25th 2016, 07:22 PM
There is wholly bad in the flesh, which is the subject I'm on at the moment.I understand. Ok then I can't answer the question, it's inaccurate and incomplete. Blessings

Protective Angel
Jan 25th 2016, 07:45 PM
We are not punished. We are tested. As Job was tested. Hopefully not to that extent. If we were to be tested as much as Job, would we still praise Him?

Job was all but dead, then God restored him with twice as much. We are tried like fine gold.


The old saying, "if we can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" comes to mind. It can indeed be very hot, very testing. I don't believe God will allow lead in heaven. So I ask Him to "burn off" the waste.

CadyandZoe
Jan 25th 2016, 09:52 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

If you are talking about the final judgment, Paul says we are punished for our deeds (not our existence.) See Romans 2:6 for example.

Protective Angel
Jan 25th 2016, 10:10 PM
If you are talking about the final judgment, Paul says we are punished for our deeds (not our existence.) See Romans 2:6 for example.

Are we not rewarded for our deeds as well?

ChangedByHim
Jan 25th 2016, 10:17 PM
The curse was put on the ground not Adam. Punished though by removal from the tree of life, so all die. The body is not sinful. No part of man is sinful in nature.


True, so there's good and bad in his nature, right?

Which is it?????

Noeb
Jan 25th 2016, 10:22 PM
Which is it?????which is what?.. ..

Aviyah
Jan 25th 2016, 11:12 PM
If you are talking about the final judgment, Paul says we are punished for our deeds (not our existence.) See Romans 2:6 for example.

But is a person besides Christ capable of never sinning from birth until death?

little watchman
Jan 25th 2016, 11:33 PM
But is a person besides Christ capable of never sinning from birth until death?

It's a hypothetical question because no one has led a sinless life except Jesus. While it is true that the flesh cannot help but sin, it is also true that the Holy Spirit enables us to overcome sin and submit to the authority of God. While I suppose Jesus by virtue of his divinity could have chosen the path of submission without help from the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that it is more consistent with His desire to set an example for us that he was aided even in his youth by the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure we are in the same position, based on Jesus' chat with Nicodemus. Before we are born again of the Spirit, we are in the flesh and do the things of the flesh. So we'd all be fit for the trash heap if it were not for the gift of the Spirit who gives us the choice to submit to God.

I should add that there seem to be degrees of Spirit-giftedness. Peter said Jesus was the Son of God by the power of the Spirit before Pentecost, John the Baptist had a portion of the Spirit, and many Old Testament prophets are said to have been carried along by the Spirit. In some measure even the gentiles mentioned in Romans chapter 1 must have the Spirit, otherwise they could not be held responsible for their actions.

wendy-p-marshall
Jan 26th 2016, 12:12 AM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

The first Scripture that comes to mind is John 5:24 where Jesus states:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

Let us not forget these powerful words. The "punishment" can be avoided be accepting Christ and believing on the Son of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

follower777
Jan 26th 2016, 12:53 AM
Hi Aviyah.

Please humor me and try to regard the image we're created in as dignified, beginning not as implicitly prone to iniquity. A little lower than the angels, but higher than the beasts.

The reality that we're all provided the opportunity to choose life over death is anathema to the carnal man. But even the unregenerate have freedom of choice to either rise and embrace the light they're given, or descend into a state of carnal brutishness as slaves yielded to the flesh.


If sin and death is working in us and we sincerely ask God for deliverance, do you believe He leaves us defenseless and abandoned? If we're delivered but then return to bondage, can we blame our deliverer?

Would the Righteous Judge of all the earth pass judgement unjustly? Or will His abundant mercy and compassion leave us without excuse? Which of these better align with biblical narratives?

Is it likely we bring wrath upon ourselves?

Stonesoffire
Jan 26th 2016, 02:43 AM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?


When I read this post, I feel that you are questioning why God would have things happen the way they have.

What I see is He longs to be with us as our Father, us His children in the same place. I don't view Him as punishing. He's offering life freely through a sacrificial act of offering what was precious to Him. It's not Him sending anyone to hell. There just is no other place for one that is rebellious and hates Him. He made hell for that purpose, and that is where Satan is. Is our choice.

Protective Angel
Jan 26th 2016, 03:29 AM
It's a hypothetical question because no one has led a sinless life except Jesus. While it is true that the flesh cannot help but sin, it is also true that the Holy Spirit enables us to overcome sin and submit to the authority of God. While I suppose Jesus by virtue of his divinity could have chosen the path of submission without help from the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that it is more consistent with His desire to set an example for us that he was aided even in his youth by the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure we are in the same position, based on Jesus' chat with Nicodemus. Before we are born again of the Spirit, we are in the flesh and do the things of the flesh. So we'd all be fit for the trash heap if it were not for the gift of the Spirit who gives us the choice to submit to God.

I should add that there seem to be degrees of Spirit-giftedness. Peter said Jesus was the Son of God by the power of the Spirit before Pentecost, John the Baptist had a portion of the Spirit, and many Old Testament prophets are said to have been carried along by the Spirit. In some measure even the gentiles mentioned in Romans chapter 1 must have the Spirit, otherwise they could not be held responsible for their actions.

You said it.

Jesus set the example.

Protective Angel
Jan 26th 2016, 03:32 AM
The "punishment" can be avoided be accepting Christ and believing on the Son of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Do this mean we are not tested. :bible:

Protective Angel
Jan 26th 2016, 03:39 AM
Hi Aviyah.

Please humor me and try to regard the image we're created in as dignified, beginning not as implicitly prone to iniquity. A little lower than the angels, but higher than the beasts.

The reality that we're all provided the opportunity to choose life over death is anathema to the carnal man. But even the unregenerate have freedom of choice to either rise and embrace the light they're given, or descend into a state of carnal brutishness as slaves yielded to the flesh.


If sin and death is working in us and we sincerely ask God for deliverance, do you believe He leaves us defenseless and abandoned? If we're delivered but then return to bondage, can we blame our deliverer?

Would the Righteous Judge of all the earth pass judgement unjustly? Or will His abundant mercy and compassion leave us without excuse? Which of these better align with biblical narratives?

Is it likely we bring wrath upon ourselves?

We can cause wrath? It does happen. It happened to Israel. I'm not sure God would apply wrath if one is truly seeking for Gods help. The person is asking for mercy. Most likely from testing, in my opinion. Wrath might occur for those deeper into trouble. An attention getter.

CadyandZoe
Jan 26th 2016, 05:16 AM
Are we not rewarded for our deeds as well?

Doing good is its own reward.

CadyandZoe
Jan 26th 2016, 05:18 AM
But is a person besides Christ capable of never sinning from birth until death?

I have never met anyone, other than Jesus, who was sinless.

Aristarkos
Jan 26th 2016, 05:55 AM
What is your opinion of Romans 7?

I'm assuming you mean according to the flesh being sinful by itself.

It says nothing about flesh on itself being sinful. The flesh itself can not sin. The scriptures address to flesh in different ways and it may be worth while to do some research about it.

Is flesh sinful?

Lets read some texts that talk about flesh:

Mat. 26:41 « Spirit willing, flesh weak »
John 1:13 « Not born out of flesh, out of God »
John 1:14 « Word became flesh »
John 3:6 « Born out of flesh: flesh »
Rom. 619 « Weakness of the flesh »
Rom. 7:18 « In me, that is in my flesh »
Rom. 8:3 « Law weak through the flesh; sinful flesh »
Rom. 8:4 « Walk after the flesh; after the spirit »
Rom. 8:6 « Thinking carnally: death, thinking spiritually: life and peace »
Rom. 8:7 « The carnal mind is enmity against God »
Rom. 8:9 « Flesh; Spirit »
Rom. 8:13 « Live after the flesh; »
Rom. 9:5 « Concerning the flesh Christ »
1 Cor. 15:39 « Different kinds of flesh »
Gal. 5:16 « Walk in the spirit; lust of the flesh »
Gal. 5:17 « Flesh lusteth against the Spirit »
Gal. 5:24 « Crucify the flesh »
Eph. 2:3 « Lusts of our flesh, desires of the flesh »
1 Tim. 3:16 « God manifest in the flesh »
2 Pet. 2:18 « lusts of the flesh; wantonness »

And some with carnal (fleshly)

Rom. 7:14 « I am carnal, sold under sin »
Rom. 15:24 « Carnal things »
1 Cor. 3:1 « Carnal, children in Christ. »
1 Cor. 3:3 « Envying, strife, divisions: carnal, as men »
1 Cor. 9:11 « Sown spiritual, reap carnal »
2 Cor. 1:12 « Not fleshly wisdom, grace of God »
1 Pet. 2:11 « Abstain from fleshly lusts »

Wat is Flesh? Now we have to figure out the different meanings the Scriptures give to flesh. I think there are four:


Complete literally, flesh is used for the muscles etc. of the body. This way it is used in 1 Cor. 15:39 and 2 Cor. 3:3. (Pay attention the special word « sarkinos » that is also used in Rom. 7:14 and indicates that something is made out of flesh.)
Sometimes meaning something physical, opposite to spiritual. See Rom 15:27; 1 Cor 9:11; Heb. 9:10
Often « flesh » means the whole physical body, the externally human. Not as a personality but as its members, the body. It is literal flesh. See Joh. 1:14; 3:6; 6:63; Rom. 9:5; 2 Cor 4:10, 11, 16; 10:3; Phillipians 1:22; Philemon 16; 1 Tim 3:16; 1 John 4:2, 3,7; 2 John. 7
In most cases it is the whole human being as he was born, including the soul. It is what came forth from Adam, in opposition what is born from God. It is in a way the « old man » (compare for example Rom. 6:6 with Gal. 5:24). This last expression however includes the whole of humanity that came from Adam and not particularly the individual. See Mat 26:41; John 1:13; Rom. 3:20, 6:19; 7:14, 18;8:3-13; 1 Cor. 3:1, 3; 2 Cor. 1:12; Gal. 5:16, 17, 24; Eph. 2:3; 1 Pet. 2:11; 2 Pet. 2:18



Now we have to investigate these four meanings. We can start by dividing them in two groups: the first three concern something material without personality. With these there is no responsibility, evilness, sin, etc. The last is more the whole human and concerns more the person then the material. Here we can have conscious sin. The soul dominates.

Some words about the first group. Our flesh, our entire body is adapted (by God) to our present existence. It is weak and corrupt (Greek « phthartos ») because the spirit that keeps it alive is languishing itself. The judgement to Adam « dying you will die » (Hebrew text of Gen. 2:17) included his body and therefor was passed to ours as well. Our bodies have no life force of their own, Adam and Eve sustained it by eating from the tree of life. Without a new life force the end of the individual as well as the whole « old man » is necessarily death. People think often that Rom. 5:12 says that all sinned « in Adam » but this text just says that Adam gave occasion to the sinning of all. Death is not a consequence of their sinning, according to verses 13 and 14.

The flesh is not sinful. The flesh in its current condition is useless for vivification and resurrection. The body has to be transformed and pass over to another way of being. That is done by the Spirit. Now we lack the glory of God and is our body corrupt - phthartos as above.

That's the only way our bodies are not « good ». Its condition my be far from ideal, it is however not « bad » in a moral sense, because it doesn't want, knows or desires. It is not an « I », not a person. Therefor it can not sin is not sinful but is victim of sin.

I'll give some more texts to confirm this:

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Our members, that is our flesh, don't sin, but can be tools of justice or injustice. Sin is therefor not in the flesh per se, but in the « I » the center of our being Rom 15:27; 1 Cor. 9:11 and places like that obviously don't point out something bad.

1Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, ...

Like I said before, can the Holy Spirit live (dwell) in something bad?

1 Cor. 7:34 ... that she may be holy both in body and in spirit ...

Can something sinful be holy?

2 Cor. 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh

Was Paul's walk sinful because he was « in the flesh »? No, because he did not walk after the flesh. Philippians 1:22 and Philemon 16 show that « being in the flesh » does not have an unfavorable meaning, all be it not a preferable way of being. Of course one could bring in Rom. 8:8 against this all (« those in the flesh can not please God ») The problem is easily solved by realizing that 2 Cor. 10:3 talks about #3 above « the whole physical body », while Rom. 8 speaks of the « old man » #4. After all, this chapter doesn't talk about the physical body, but about the whole human born as a sinner. That « old man » has to be crucified (Rom. 6:6) one is not allowed to walk after it.

The same can be said about Rom. 8:3 (« the sinful flesh »). Please take note that the Greek doesn't speak about « equal » but « likeness » (homoios) of the sinful flesh. After all the Son didn't come in a weak and dying body like a normal child of Adam? It looked like it. What is the difference? Our flesh is weak (Mat. 26:41; Rom. 6:23). The « outward man », as well as the whole man can this way easily belong to sin, they are « sold under sin » Rom. 7:14. « Captives of the law » Rom. 7:23.

Each time the Scriptures place the Spirit opposite to the flesh. In the Spirit (Be it the Holy Spirit, the Giver or His gift) is power and life. That's why we shouldn't be carnal (fleshly) supporting on ourselves (like we were born from Adam) but we must be spiritual, supporting on God. The Spirit works in us and even lives in us.

What happened when the Son took the form of a servant? (Philippians 2:7)? We read in

Luk. 1:35 The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee

That power was more than sufficient to lift the weakness of the human flesh. By the power of the Most High Jesus' flesh was truly alive, it was not a dying body.

One remembers how often Gods Word speaks of powers that heal. Luke 5:17 for example says: « The power of the Lord was present to heal them ». In Luke 6:19 « a virtue went out of him ». The woman of Luke 8:48 was healed by the virtue that went out of him. (vs. 46) Here it is only a temporarily stopping of disease or dying, but that virtue can also stop it permanently. This way the body of Christ was not weak like ours because of the power of the Holy Spirit. He was in close community with the Father and that source of life prevented all disease and corruption. So when we read:

John 1:14 « Word became flesh »
1 Tim. 3:16 « God manifest in the flesh »
1 John 4:2, 3 « Christ is come in the flesh »
2 John 7 « Christ is coming in the flesh »

firstly we see that « flesh » is not something bad or sinful on its own and secondly that it concerns Christ opposed to Adam. Both have a body of flesh. The difference is, the first is weak and dying and the second is powerful and a live. When we come into community with Christ, we keep our old bodies. It stays vulnerable to disease and sin. But notwithstanding this we still can walk after the Spirit, because our spirit is in contact with God.

The person sinful. Now we arrive at the fourth meaning of « flesh ». This concerns the whole human, including the soul. We read of this:

John 1:13 « of the will of the flesh »
Rom. 8:6 « For to be carnally minded is death »
Gal. 5:16, 17; Eph. 2:3; 2 Pet. 2:18; 1 Pet. 2:11 « the lust of the flesh »
Gal. 5:19 « the works of the flesh »

Here we’re dealing with a person, whom can want, think, desire and work. It is man in the position where the flesh dominates, where feeling, the soul, is opposite to the spirit and wins. The whole of Rom. 8 deals with this « flesh ». Sometimes it’s hard to distinguish between the « outward man », the body or the whole man, the person. For example Rom. 7:14, 18 (compare vs. 23: members; vs. 24: body). The word « body » can also have the meaning of the whole person. (Rom. 8:10) We can therefor conclude, that Rom. 7:18 also speaks of « old man » more then of the « outward man ». I would like to point out that it doesn’t say:

« in me is no good »

But does say:

« In me, that is in my flesh, lives no good »

The good doesn’t come forth from the flesh, God however can put it there. Even in non believers there can be « good » but it doesn’t live there, in other words it’s not constantly present. For that to happen, first the Holy Spirit has to « live » there.

We conclude from all this, that the literal flesh and the physical body is not « good » or « bad » by itself, just weak and dying. In this way the flesh is a victim of sin, not the author. However, what is bad and sinful is the « old man », this is the whole of humanity born from Adam. When « flesh » points to the whole of man, the person, one can say that good doesn’t live there. Temporarily and relatively there can be good. There can also be continues « good » in relation to physical things and in the relation between humans. There is however no absolute justice.

Aristarkos

wendy-p-marshall
Jan 26th 2016, 01:58 PM
Do this mean we are not tested. :bible:

I would have to say I believe that we are constantly tested. I believe God is always chastening and chastising His people. Very much in the same way a loving parent would do with his/her child.

CadyandZoe
Jan 26th 2016, 04:58 PM
What is your opinion of Romans 7?

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not... For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? (Romans 7:18, 22-24)

If you don't mind, I would like to take another shot at answering your question. And this is going to take a long post, so please bear with me. I want to highlight a significant concept found in Romans 7 that might help. First of all, notice that Paul is speaking in the first person, making observations and remarks about his own experience. He uses words like "me", "my", and "I" indicating to the reader that his argument is not only based on scripture and sound reason, but also based on personal experience. Second, notice that Paul's discourse is focused on his enlightenment; he describes what he "saw" about himself. That is, he went through a process whereby he learned something about himself as he came to a new awareness of his true status before the law. He says things like, "I was once alive", "I died" , "I would not have come to know sin . . .", "I would not have known . . .", "in order that it might be shown to be sin . . .", "I do not understand.",

Many people teach this passage as if Paul was not a believer; he is describing himself before he was converted. Before he came to believe that Jesus was the Christ, he was a wretched sinful man without hope. But I would quarrel with that interpretation. Paul is speaking as a believer, after his conversion experience and in fact, one could argue that Paul is describing his conversion experience as he begins to awaken to the fact that he is not saved by obedience to the Law of Moses. He is speaking upon self-reflection as he maps out for the readers his paradigm shift. When he formerly affirmed that God was granting him favor due to Paul's obedience to the law, he was "alive" with respect to God's favor. Obedience to the law was the means to God's favor, (he wrongly thought) and Paul obeyed the law, so it made perfect sense to Paul that he had God's favor.

But one day, as Paul reflected on the Tenth Commandment, he suddenly realized that with regard to THAT commandment, he was NOT obedient. And in fact, this was a commandment that was impossible for him to obey, because obedience required a proper inwardness he could not find within himself. The Tenth Commandment is different than the other nine in this respect. Whereas God said, "You shall not TAKE your neighbor's stuff"; the Tenth commandment says, "You shall not WANT your neighbor's stuff. Whereas God said, "You shall not SLEEP with your neighbor's wife"; the Tenth commandment says "You shall not WANT to sleep with your neighbor's wife." The other commandments deal with action, the final commandment deals with inwardness. And Paul says that when he finally understood that commandment and the real challenge it raised, he found that he was coveting all the time. The Tenth commandment essentially says, "you must have the proper inwardness" and Paul didn't find that inwardness in himself.

Jesus says something similar to other Pharisees when he says, "You have heard it said, "Thou shall not commit adultery:, but I say that if you should lust after your neighbor's wife, you have committed adultery with her in your heart." The Pharisees rested on their orthopraxy; the Pharisee (including Paul, at first) believed that justification and favor was awarded to him because he stood blameless before the Law. Paul even writes in his letter to the Philippians that he was blameless before the Law. (Phil. 3:6) But Jesus confronts them with a flaw in their thinking. God is not granting his favor to those who obey the law as an actor, following a script. God is granting his favor to those with the proper inwardness.

As we reflect on Paul's discourse in Romans 7, we see a man with the proper inwardness, describing himself as a man who truly and accurately understands himself. He understands God properly; he understands the law properly; and he finally came to understand himself properly. He describes himself as a wretched man at war with his own body. The fact that he is aware of himself as a sinner in need of Grace is a poignant and significant marker of his status as a child of God, even as he continues to battle with his own members. He is a sinner at the most fundamental level of his being, and yet, he is also a saint in his spirit and his mind where he agrees with the Law, that it is good, and he agrees with God that he needs a savior. He awaits the transformation of his body so that he will no longer be at war within himself.

All believers share this same problem. We are all sinners, from the core of our being, in need of forgiveness, reconciliation, and glorification, i.e. a transformation of our bodies so that we might live as the glorious creatures God made us to be. The difference between the "sinner" and the "saint" is not found in the flesh, which is common to all people; but the difference is to be found in the heart. The "saints" are those who are honest, contrite, and repentant and look forward to the day of salvation. And if this describes your inwardness, then you are a child of God.

Protective Angel
Jan 27th 2016, 05:00 AM
Add this :

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


I'll add a BIG AMEN to that scripture.
Romans 8:16 - 27 sums it up. IMO

Scooby_Snacks
Jan 27th 2016, 04:34 PM
Often when I think on Paul's discussion about his conflict with his sinful flesh, I think of how I DO try to overcome sin or character flaws in my own strength, and it is THAT issue, my self reliance that is being addressed in many ways by Paul who knows that his own works are not righteous at all when relying on self to do them.

So Paul moves into understanding that he died (that carnal and spiritually dead person he was died and was buried and he has had a spiritual re-birth) even if this newness is encased within his dying physical body, he is factually no longer ruled by sin because sin (and the guilt and power of sin that causes death) is nailed to the cross.

It is when the law comes into place (but we are no longer under the law but can do this to ourselves, put ourselves under the law thinking we should be or could be or must be more Godly, this is self condemning, God will work if this goes away)

-- It is in and by Grace and under Grace that healing and deliverance happens.
Not under the law, EVER.
Anyone can white knuckle but that is outward it does not last and is a self work, IMO.
I may also do my part but I do that knowing there is work being done within me at the same time by HIM for lasting change.

Healing, deliverance and releasing of bondage is an inside job, it is by Grace through Faith.

Even if I can see sin still alive in my life after being born again, it is the shift of understanding of my position in Christ that change occurs outwardly through Him, IF I relinquish the result to Him and in His timing not myself, the glory to Him and not myself.

What was in control (carnality and the natural flesh) is no longer in control because Christ says it is not.
Seems pretty frustrating, but it is true if one believes it is. The turning of my will (mind, heart?) over to Him to empower this truth is a surrender that I have prayed for and He has offered, freely to me.
He will get me to this letting go place if I ask.

Being in physical, mental or emotional pain (which can be the flesh working against the spirit as well) I have seen hinder this letting go process in me.
I do not want to feel pain, I do not want to be depressed, I want to have joy and freedom.
I (myself and by my own will) will do do do to try to stop from feeling those things:
(Physical Pain or emotional/mental anguish-- (anger, grief, guilt, depression, confusion).


What Paul is addressing (to me) is sort of a self works (that do not have a lasting work) V.S. reliance (by turning over-- I give up, help me) issue?

Hope I am not derailing at all...

rom826
Jan 27th 2016, 06:55 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?Jesus Christ took our sin upon him. You have the right to choose him as lord and savior. From reading other posts of yours, I am glad you chose to make that right decision.

Tony P
Jan 27th 2016, 10:06 PM
We are not punished. We are tested. As Job was tested. Hopefully not to that extent. If we were to be tested as much as Job, would we still praise Him?

Job was all but dead, then God restored him with twice as much. We are tried like fine gold.


The old saying, "if we can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" comes to mind. It can indeed be very hot, very testing. I don't believe God will allow lead in heaven. So I ask Him to "burn off" the waste.

Exactly!

From my personal experience, God put an end to 17 years of my hard work and success. I had labored day and night building businesses and did not have time for God. He crushed all my hopes and dreams during hurricane Katrina in 2005 and the financial collapse that followed in 2008. It hurt terribly. I don't have the words to describe it. I threw away a 15 year marriage. I was a mess. When there was nothing left of me, I returned to God. He saved me from myself. Although it was extremely difficult, he has realigned my priorities. I can now look back and say, it was not punishment. It was Salvation! He loves me. I don't know why, but he does.

Aijalon
Jan 28th 2016, 02:54 AM
He wanted to do good as well, so why not say he had a good nature?

Maybe because that is the exact opposite of what he actually wrote!

Noeb
Jan 28th 2016, 03:22 AM
Read the chapter and post #5. Where is sin nature or good nature..... Anywhere in scripture?

Christinme
Jan 28th 2016, 02:28 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?Life, etc. is difficult ... no one ever said it was a breeze ...

Noeb
Jan 30th 2016, 02:03 PM
If you don't mind, I would like to take another shot at answering your question. And this is going to take a long post, so please bear with me. I want to highlight a significant concept found in Romans 7 that might help. First of all, notice that Paul is speaking in the first person, making observations and remarks about his own experience. He uses words like "me", "my", and "I" indicating to the reader that his argument is not only based on scripture and sound reason, but also based on personal experience. Second, notice that Paul's discourse is focused on his enlightenment; he describes what he "saw" about himself. That is, he went through a process whereby he learned something about himself as he came to a new awareness of his true status before the law. He says things like, "I was once alive", "I died" , "I would not have come to know sin . . .", "I would not have known . . .", "in order that it might be shown to be sin . . .", "I do not understand.",

Many people teach this passage as if Paul was not a believer; he is describing himself before he was converted. Before he came to believe that Jesus was the Christ, he was a wretched sinful man without hope. But I would quarrel with that interpretation. Paul is speaking as a believer, after his conversion experience and in fact, one could argue that Paul is describing his conversion experience as he begins to awaken to the fact that he is not saved by obedience to the Law of Moses. He is speaking upon self-reflection as he maps out for the readers his paradigm shift. When he formerly affirmed that God was granting him favor due to Paul's obedience to the law, he was "alive" with respect to God's favor. Obedience to the law was the means to God's favor, (he wrongly thought) and Paul obeyed the law, so it made perfect sense to Paul that he had God's favor.

But one day, as Paul reflected on the Tenth Commandment, he suddenly realized that with regard to THAT commandment, he was NOT obedient. And in fact, this was a commandment that was impossible for him to obey, because obedience required a proper inwardness he could not find within himself. The Tenth Commandment is different than the other nine in this respect. Whereas God said, "You shall not TAKE your neighbor's stuff"; the Tenth commandment says, "You shall not WANT your neighbor's stuff. Whereas God said, "You shall not SLEEP with your neighbor's wife"; the Tenth commandment says "You shall not WANT to sleep with your neighbor's wife." The other commandments deal with action, the final commandment deals with inwardness. And Paul says that when he finally understood that commandment and the real challenge it raised, he found that he was coveting all the time. The Tenth commandment essentially says, "you must have the proper inwardness" and Paul didn't find that inwardness in himself.

Jesus says something similar to other Pharisees when he says, "You have heard it said, "Thou shall not commit adultery:, but I say that if you should lust after your neighbor's wife, you have committed adultery with her in your heart." The Pharisees rested on their orthopraxy; the Pharisee (including Paul, at first) believed that justification and favor was awarded to him because he stood blameless before the Law. Paul even writes in his letter to the Philippians that he was blameless before the Law. (Phil. 3:6) But Jesus confronts them with a flaw in their thinking. God is not granting his favor to those who obey the law as an actor, following a script. God is granting his favor to those with the proper inwardness.

As we reflect on Paul's discourse in Romans 7, we see a man with the proper inwardness, describing himself as a man who truly and accurately understands himself. He understands God properly; he understands the law properly; and he finally came to understand himself properly. He describes himself as a wretched man at war with his own body. The fact that he is aware of himself as a sinner in need of Grace is a poignant and significant marker of his status as a child of God, even as he continues to battle with his own members. He is a sinner at the most fundamental level of his being, and yet, he is also a saint in his spirit and his mind where he agrees with the Law, that it is good, and he agrees with God that he needs a savior. He awaits the transformation of his body so that he will no longer be at war within himself.

All believers share this same problem. We are all sinners, from the core of our being, in need of forgiveness, reconciliation, and glorification, i.e. a transformation of our bodies so that we might live as the glorious creatures God made us to be. The difference between the "sinner" and the "saint" is not found in the flesh, which is common to all people; but the difference is to be found in the heart. The "saints" are those who are honest, contrite, and repentant and look forward to the day of salvation. And if this describes your inwardness, then you are a child of God.Well said. I agree with almost everything you've said. Instead of quibbling over what I disagree with, which may just be semantics, I'll just state what else I see. If I ask myself why this controversial section of Romans 7 is here, I'm drawn to what is said both before and after; what is Paul's goal, what is he doing? Seems to me he's trying to increase 'the knowledge of Christ' in those at Rome. Before and after this section of Romans 7 he's talking about not sinning, so why this section about what it's like to sin? Why would this be pre-conversion? That's never made any sense to me. Instead, as you say, "All believers share this same problem." and Paul is showing them through his own walk that he did too, and how to stop being defeated by flesh and how to walk after (follow) the Spirit. That it's not by our own efforts but it's by believing continually In Christ, because we all miserably fail on our own. Just as Romans 6 and 8 does, 7 also says it is by The Cross. The (old) man died at The Cross -vv1-4, 24-25, and because he lives we live again too! To a new and better way, with a new nature because of the Spirit.

ChangedByHim
Jan 31st 2016, 08:24 PM
which is what?.. ..

Classic evasion.... per normal

Noeb
Feb 1st 2016, 07:07 PM
That's odd. I'm always accused of the opposite. Not to mention you know better. There's nothing contradictory there, but please feel free to tell me why you think there is so I'll know where your confusion is and can explain better.

ProDeo
Feb 2nd 2016, 04:04 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?
That's quite some sentence ;)

if being born here is a punishment then the logical conclusion is that you previously have done something wrong.

One line of thought is that without this life (experiencing both good and bad) you (per Gen 3:22) wouldn't know the difference between the two of them. Try to imagine a life as A&E before the fall, the innocent Aviyah knowing only good, without a concept of knowing what good is. Then, which one of the 2 Aviyah's will appreciate God more for who He is? The innocent one, or the learned one? Which one of the 2 Aviyah's will not fall for the temptation of the snake and obey God, the innocent Aviyah or the learned Aviyah?

One (whole?) point of the garden experience is to obey God no matter how strange an order from Him is, here and in afterlife. I mean, there is nothing wrong eating fruit from a tree, it becomes sin when He declares something as sin (don't eat from that particular tree) and then we better take notice of that and obey, even when the logic escapes us.

In a way we are a blessed generation, due to the radio -> TV -> Internet our knowledge of the history of this world and its sufferings is at our fingertips. The endless wars, hunger, diseases, earthquakes, death is everywhere all caused by one act of disobedience.

This life is God's investment in us making us ready for the real life.

So, when in afterlife God at some moment tells us to go "left" then we go left even if we don't understand the why of it, we have learned what the consequences are of disobedience.

And if some snake might turn up starting with, "did God really say go left? Look at your right side, isn't that beautiful as well?", then we will answer, you stupid snake, we learned our lesson, you apparently have not, go away.

awestruckchild
Feb 3rd 2016, 12:53 PM
Often when I think on Paul's discussion about his conflict with his sinful flesh, I think of how I DO try to overcome sin or character flaws in my own strength, and it is THAT issue, my self reliance that is being addressed in many ways by Paul who knows that his own works are not righteous at all when relying on self to do them.

So Paul moves into understanding that he died (that carnal and spiritually dead person he was died and was buried and he has had a spiritual re-birth) even if this newness is encased within his dying physical body, he is factually no longer ruled by sin because sin (and the guilt and power of sin that causes death) is nailed to the cross.

It is when the law comes into place (but we are no longer under the law but can do this to ourselves, put ourselves under the law thinking we should be or could be or must be more Godly, this is self condemning, God will work if this goes away)

-- It is in and by Grace and under Grace that healing and deliverance happens.
Not under the law, EVER.
Anyone can white knuckle but that is outward it does not last and is a self work, IMO.
I may also do my part but I do that knowing there is work being done within me at the same time by HIM for lasting change.

Healing, deliverance and releasing of bondage is an inside job, it is by Grace through Faith.

Even if I can see sin still alive in my life after being born again, it is the shift of understanding of my position in Christ that change occurs outwardly through Him, IF I relinquish the result to Him and in His timing not myself, the glory to Him and not myself.

What was in control (carnality and the natural flesh) is no longer in control because Christ says it is not.
Seems pretty frustrating, but it is true if one believes it is. The turning of my will (mind, heart?) over to Him to empower this truth is a surrender that I have prayed for and He has offered, freely to me.
He will get me to this letting go place if I ask.

Being in physical, mental or emotional pain (which can be the flesh working against the spirit as well) I have seen hinder this letting go process in me.
I do not want to feel pain, I do not want to be depressed, I want to have joy and freedom.
I (myself and by my own will) will do do do to try to stop from feeling those things:
(Physical Pain or emotional/mental anguish-- (anger, grief, guilt, depression, confusion).


What Paul is addressing (to me) is sort of a self works (that do not have a lasting work) V.S. reliance (by turning over-- I give up, help me) issue?

Hope I am not derailing at all...

Now that's a conscience cleansed from dead works!

The Parson
Feb 4th 2016, 03:28 AM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

Wow, I've seen a bunch of good input here. Did the original question actually get answered? Let me see if I get this...

The OP was "are we being punished for something we can't help just because we were born" and "if we kill ourselves are we gonna get punished even more"? Is that it? If I'm off kilter here, let me know.

Just being born doesn't put us in chastisement. No way. But the psalmist said: Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. So out of immorality we were shaped and in the process of our conception there was sin. So like the others said, the flesh is sinful. I like where y'all used Paul's example in Romans 7. That's a classic of the struggle between the flesh and the soul.

Are you personally being punished because you were born. No, but the sin that's in you, the flesh, is going to get old, start hurting, have things go wrong, die and decay. There's no way around that because sin brings death and the flesh was conceived in sin. Wages of sin and all that. That's unless the Lord comes back before you die.

Of course then there's that "once you become accountable to God" thingy where if you do sin without repentance, the Lord will punish you. Not because He likes punishing his children, but because He loves you as His child. Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If you aren't a child of God, why would He punish you personally? The answer is, He wouldn't. Whatever happens to a lost person just happens, either from choices or from the flesh failing. There is of course the final judgement of the lost...

And what about the suicide thing? Let me post an answer from my blog (http://parsonscorner.org/life-and-death/) and let me know what you think:


The taking of ones life is wrong by any means. For the lost, it means placing themselves in hell quicker than was appointed to them. For the Christian, it means stealing something that does not belong to them. Here’s why…

The scriptures tell us that each and every person born is going to die. There is an appointment! Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: That time that’s set for us to meet our maker. Ecclesiastes 7:15 All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness. 16 Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself? 17 Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?

But specifically to the Christian to take their own life is theft. The Christian no longer belongs to themselves. They belong to God. Consider the verses below and you can clearly see the point I’m making here. These verses are talking about fleeing from fornication, but look at the point made about who we belong to:

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.


Did I even come close to answering the OP?

pekoe
Feb 5th 2016, 08:31 AM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?
We're not in a sinful body.

awestruckchild
Feb 5th 2016, 09:54 AM
We're not in a sinful body.

Good morning pekoe!
If some part of us is not sinful, then why can some part of us never survive and see God?
Why does death come to something that is not sinful?
And if the flesh wars against the Spirit, and always will, how is that not sinful?

pekoe
Feb 5th 2016, 12:40 PM
Good morning pekoe!
If some part of us is not sinful, then why can some part of us never survive and see God?
Why does death come to something that is not sinful?
And if the flesh wars against the Spirit, and always will, how is that not sinful?
Good morn awestruckchild!
Our bodies have the capacity to sin, but are not sinful of themselves, because sin originates in our minds:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts..." Mk.7:21

The battle is unpleasant, but isn't a bad thing if we yield to Jesus. Believers are being taught they can never cease from sin and that isn't true. Instead of defeating people who desire to serve God, we should be building each other up.

Slug1
Feb 5th 2016, 01:16 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?We do have a choice... to live eternally with Christ, or not to live eternally with Christ.

shepherdsword
Feb 5th 2016, 01:53 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?


To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely,
The pangs of despised Love, the Law’s delay,

So the quilt work mosaic of life seems when we look at it from this side. We see a chaotic jumble of disconnected patches and threads. It's only when we have the vision and wisdom to view life through the eternal that we see the beauty of the tapestry from the OTHER side. However,sometimes our eyes get so focused on our situation in this physical realm that the realm of the spirit seems far away and unreal. Paul offered us this remedy:
Ro 8:5-7
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

When we attempt to evaluate things such as our purpose.God's love for us and what the future holds through a natural mind set then inevitably a negative depressing picture appears. This view,taken to the extreme will lead us to a despair that curses God and dies. This is why faith is so critical,especially in our darkest moments. Faith will be thankful and bless God in all things. It will not consider itself or it's circumstances but rather it will reach out and touch God. This is what we must do when the darkness falls us and blinds us to the reality of God's love and sacrifice for us. We must cast down these imaginations that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. They are the strongholds that bind us:

2 Co 10:4-5 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

This can only be done we are resolved to walk by faith and not by sight :)

pekoe
Feb 5th 2016, 08:16 PM
Good post shepherdsword!

"...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
looking unto Jesus the Author and Perfector of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame..." Heb.12:1-2

We can endure any hardship or temptation because Jesus is for us. Maybe we can't run anymore, but we can walk with patience, or even when necessary be still with patience. God says we can, so it's the devil who says we can't.

Has anyone a ever noticed how quickly temptation passes when resisted, or how after repeated victories over certain sins, temptation to them disappears altogether?

Protective Angel
Feb 6th 2016, 01:49 AM
Good morning pekoe!
If some part of us is not sinful, then why can some part of us never survive and see God?
Why does death come to something that is not sinful?
And if the flesh wars against the Spirit, and always will, how is that not sinful?
In simple terms, your saying the flesh is never saved. Makes sense. Just never thought of it that way.

Noeb
Feb 6th 2016, 02:05 AM
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

chad
Feb 6th 2016, 04:08 AM
(Rom 7:18 KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. The will is present (not to sin), but to do that – I have not found.

NIV reads ... (Rom 7:18 NIV) I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.


(Rom 7:19 KJV) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I want to do good only, but I also do evil – this evil is not what I want to do.

NIV reads ... (Rom 7:19 NIV) For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.


(Rom 7:20 KJV) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So if I do the things that I do not want to do, it is sin that dwelleth in me. It is not from my mind, for my mind does not want to sin.

NIV reads ... (Rom 7:20 NIV) Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


(Rom 7:21 KJV) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

When I do good, I find that evil is still present with me.

NIV reads ... (Rom 7:21 NIV) So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.


(Rom 7:22 KJV) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man (Reborn Spirit)...

NIV reads ... (Rom 7:22 NIV) For in my inner being I delight in God's law;


(Rom 7:23 KJV) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

But I see another law warring against my mind (Which does not want to sin). It brings me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (Parts of the body - Flesh).

Members G3196. melos, mel'-os; of uncert. affin.; a limb or part of the body:--member.

Mind G3563. nous, nooce; prob. from the base of G1097; the intellect, i.e. mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by impl. meaning:--mind, understanding. Comp. G5590.

NIV reads ... (Rom 7:23 NIV) but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.


(Rom 7:24 KJV) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Who shall deliver me from this body (sinful) of death?


(Rom 7:25 KJV) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jesus Christ our Lord rescues us. With the mind, I serve the law of God, but with the Flesh, the law of sin.

NIV reads ... (Rom 7:25 NIV) Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


(Rom 8:1 KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no condemnation (Adverse sentence) to them which are In Chirist Jesus, who walk after the spirit, not the flesh.

Condemnation G 2631. katakrima, kat-ak'-ree-mah; from G2632; an adverse sentence (the verdict):--condemnation.


(Rom 8:2 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit of life – makes you free from the law of sin and death. Those in Jesus are under a different law. The law of the spirit of life.

NIV reads ... (Rom 8:2 NIV) because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.


(Rom 8:3 KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus condemned sin in the flesh.

Condemnded G2632. katakrino, kat-ak-ree'-no; from G2596 and G2919; to judge against, i.e. sentence:--condemn, damn.


(Rom 8:4 KJV) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So the rigteousness of the law is fulfilled in for, for those who walk after the spirit and not the flesh.

NIV Reads ... (Rom 8:4 NIV) in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.


(Rom 8:5 KJV) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Those who live after (by) the flesh, do the things of the flesh. But those who live after (by) the spirit, the things of the spirit.

NIV Reads ... (Rom 8:5 NIV) Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.


(Rom 8:6 KJV) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

To have a mind that desired after the carnal is death. But those who are spiritually minded is to have a mind of life and peace.

Carnally G4561. sarx, sarx; prob. from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extens.) the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by impl.) human nature (with its frailties [phys. or mor.] and passions), or (spec.) a human being (as such):--carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

Minded G5427. phronema, fron'-ay-mah; from G5426; (mental) inclination or purpose:--(be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).

NIV reads ... (Rom 8:6 NIV) The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;


(Rom 8:7 KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The Carnal mind is and enmity (Opposition) against God, becasue it is not subject to the law of God.

Enmity G2189. echthra, ekh'-thrah; fem. of G2190; hostility; by impl. a reason for opposition:--enmity, hatred.


(Rom 8:8 KJV) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

They that are in the Flesh can not please God, because thier flesh is not subject to the law of God.


(Rom 8:9 KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if the spirit of God lives in you. If a man does not have the spirit of Christ, how can Gods spirit live in him, how can he belong to Christ?

NIV reads .... (Rom 8:9 NIV) You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.


(Rom 8:10 KJV) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11 KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(Rom 8:12 KJV) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Therefore we have an obligation, not to live a life a life after the flesh.

Flesh G4561. sarx, sarx; prob. from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extens.) the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by impl.) human nature (with its frailties [phys. or mor.] and passions), or (spec.) a human being (as such):--carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

NIV reads ... (Rom 8:12 NIV) Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.


(Rom 8:13 KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

NIV reads ... (Rom 8:13 NIV) For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,


(Rom 8:14 KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Those who are led by the spirit of God are the sons of God.

(Rom 8:15 KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

We have not recieved a spirit of bondage again and fear, but the spirit of Adoption.


(Rom 8:16 KJV) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

(Rom 8:17 KJV) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

(Rom 8:18 KJV) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Gadgeteer
Feb 9th 2016, 06:57 PM
Are we punished for being in a sinful body when we did not choose to be born and we cannot choose to die (without more punishment)?

Technically, we are not punished for sins we commit (nor are we SAVED by NOT committing sins).

While passages like Rom2 and Rev20 states that "each is judged according to his deeds" -- the underlying reality is that all we do is the consequence of what we ARE.

Christianity is unlike all other religions; religion has men striving to OVERCOME sin -- Christianity says "you cannot, you are too weak" (Rom8:3). At its heart, Christianity is a UNION between two people -- Jesus and the Spirit indwelling us, changing us from the inside out; DOING our good deeds THROUGH us.


What is your opinion of Romans 7?Romans7 cannot be read apart from chapters 6 and 8.

In chapter six, he teaches about "being born again" -- crucified/died/buried/immersed/UNITED both in His death and in His resurrection.

Chapter seven is about the WAR between the new righteous/begotten-of-God nature, and the old sinful dead-but-not-GONE nature. It is in anguish that Paul cries, "wretched man that I am, who will SAVE me from this war inside?!"

Then the answer is in chapter 8 --- there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus, for what men were too weak to do God did, sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh He condemned sin in the flesh.

The principle of "walking in Jesus", and NOT walking in sin, is clear. "If we walk after the flesh WE MUST DIE; but if by the Spirit we put to death the flesh, we live."

And that's the secret -- driving down our "roads of life", it's by HIS power, and HIS guidance.

....but we're still turning the steering wheel...

Aren't we?

:-)

Stonesoffire
Feb 9th 2016, 07:19 PM
Or maybe we're sitting in the back seat? :)