PDA

View Full Version : Who are the Jews praying to?



wendy-p-marshall
Jan 30th 2016, 11:12 PM
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (I John 2:23)

Who are the Jews praying to if they don't have the Son?

I'm trying to make sense of this, but I find it hard to believe that Jews can have access to the Father without acknowledging the Son.

It seems to me that they aren't worshiping any idols or anything as far as I can tell. But if they don't have the Son, neither the Father, then whom do they have?


P.S.: I am referring to Jews who practice Judaism not the Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus Christ.

Aviyah
Jan 30th 2016, 11:22 PM
Actually I think anyone can pray/speak to God whether they acknowledge Christ or not.

wendy-p-marshall
Jan 31st 2016, 12:13 AM
Actually I think anyone can pray/speak to God whether they acknowledge Christ or not.

I realize that anyone CAN pray to God whether they acknowledge Christ or not, but I suppose my question is: Is He listening? and does He acknowledge their prayers? Or is the "hotline" closed for them sort of speak?

keck553
Jan 31st 2016, 12:17 AM
I realize that anyone CAN pray to God whether they acknowledge Christ or not, but I suppose my question is: Is He listening? and does He acknowledge their prayers? Or is the "hotline" closed for them sort of speak?

If God had not listened to me, I would not be a Christian

wendy-p-marshall
Jan 31st 2016, 12:22 AM
If God had not listened to me, I would not be a Christian

Yes but you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. You accepted Jesus as your Savior.

Right?

amazzin
Jan 31st 2016, 01:07 AM
GOD hears and is attentive to our prayers. Remember he is God the father.

wendy-p-marshall
Jan 31st 2016, 01:41 AM
GOD hears and is attentive to our prayers. Remember he is God the father.

I agree my fellow Canadian Christian (Greetings from Quebec ;) ) in that GOD hears and is attentive to OUR (Believers in Jesus Christ) prayers... But non believing Jews?, Hindus?, Muslims, Mormons, etc... Who are they praying to? Hindus have their idols. Mormons have some other (false) "god". Muslims also have their (false) "god" Allah. But whom do Jews have? (Those who reject Jesus Christ)

Stonesoffire
Jan 31st 2016, 02:11 AM
Daniel 9 is a good chapter to see how Jews pray.

With the situation in Israel as it is today, am sure there is much prayer. I've seen pics of soldiers reading their bibles with full army gear and rifles. I love Israel and their ways.

pekoe
Jan 31st 2016, 02:25 AM
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (I John 2:23)

Who are the Jews praying to if they don't have the Son?

I'm trying to make sense of this, but I find it hard to believe that Jews can have access to the Father without acknowledging the Son.

It seems to me that they aren't worshiping any idols or anything as far as I can tell. But if they don't have the Son, neither the Father, then whom do they have?


P.S.: I am referring to Jews who practice Judaism not the Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus Christ.
OT believers were heard by God. How were they heard before the Messiah was born on earth?

wendy-p-marshall
Jan 31st 2016, 02:33 AM
Daniel 9 is a good chapter to see how Jews pray.

With the situation in Israel as it is today, am sure there is much prayer. I've seen pics of soldiers reading their bibles with full army gear and rifles. I love Israel and their ways.

I love Israel too this is why I ask this question! I ask because I am SO worried and very much concerned about them. There are those who say that we don't need to evangelize the Jews... These are the true Anti-Semites of this world in my opinion; those who say that the Jews are "fine" and that they don't need the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ... Those who say "The Jews are fine..." and then turn around and laugh as they watch them go to Hell. This is bad... Very bad...

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Romans 2:10)

wendy-p-marshall
Jan 31st 2016, 02:40 AM
OT believers were heard by God. How were they heard before the Messiah was born on earth?

From what I gather, in the OT, God worked and communicated through Moses and the Prophets. The Messiah hadn't come to earth yet, I realize this but does I John 2:23 only apply to Gentiles?

John 8:32
Jan 31st 2016, 03:23 AM
They are praying to God. It ain't really complicated, they have known God for 3500 years.

pekoe
Jan 31st 2016, 03:39 AM
From what I gather, in the OT, God worked and communicated through Moses and the Prophets. The Messiah hadn't come to earth yet, I realize this but does I John 2:23 only apply to Gentiles?
No, it applies to everyone. The Prophets and Moses brought the word of God to people. The Word was made Flesh. This is why Jesus said,

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." Jn.8:47

People cannot truly love God and reject the Messiah, yet throughout history, in receiving God's word by faith, people were receiving Christ. Accepting (or believing in) Jesus is to order our lives as God wishes, because of faith in His Word.

keck553
Jan 31st 2016, 05:14 AM
Yes but you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. You accepted Jesus as your Savior.

Right?

No, I beleived in the idea of Jesus Christ. I prayed to God that he would help my unbelief. He only became my Lord after God drew me to Him.

Now for Scripture -

"Act 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort,
Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.
Act 10:3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, "Cornelius."
Act 10:4 And he stared at him in terror and said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God."

Cornelius was what the Jews at the time would call a "God-fearer." He had not converted to Judaism (which would include circumcision) yet he was attracted to the God the Jews around him worshipped. Yet God heard his prayers - and it was later that the Gospel of Christ was preached to him.

keck553
Jan 31st 2016, 05:20 AM
I love Israel too this is why I ask this question! I ask because I am SO worried and very much concerned about them. There are those who say that we don't need to evangelize the Jews... These are the true Anti-Semites of this world in my opinion; those who say that the Jews are "fine" and that they don't need the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ... Those who say "The Jews are fine..." and then turn around and laugh as they watch them go to Hell. This is bad... Very bad...

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Romans 2:10)

It is not profitable to assume God's job, it is way above our pay grade.

Keep in mind it is God alone who saves. We are responsible for our testimony of Christ and proclaiming the good news. Everything else is in God's hands. Pray for the lost and trust Him.

He hears those who call on Him. And perhaps God will allow a circumstance for you the opportunity to give that soul His Gospel one day.

Stonesoffire
Jan 31st 2016, 05:20 AM
I love Israel too this is why I ask this question! I ask because I am SO worried and very much concerned about them. There are those who say that we don't need to evangelize the Jews... These are the true Anti-Semites of this world in my opinion; those who say that the Jews are "fine" and that they don't need the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ... Those who say "The Jews are fine..." and then turn around and laugh as they watch them go to Hell. This is bad... Very bad...

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Romans 2:10)


Wendy

It's my opinion that those Jews who love God, and serve Him go to Abraham's bosom. But, there are those who deny God in every way just as there is the same with Gentiles.

But, we all need Jesus to go to heaven. All need evangelized.

percho
Feb 1st 2016, 12:15 AM
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: John 8:54

They pray to the father of Jesus they just do not believe that Jesus was his Son. The Christ.

That is exactly what Jesus changed about Saul on the road. Jesus translated Saul from unbelief unto belief by blindness and through the Spirit to see.

wendy-p-marshall
Feb 1st 2016, 06:06 PM
It is not profitable to assume God's job, it is way above our pay grade.

Good point.


He hears those who call on Him. And perhaps God will allow a circumstance for you the opportunity to give that soul His Gospel one day.

I truly want to believe that I will be able to give testimony of the Saving Gospel of Christ to as many souls as God will allow me. To the Jew first, and also to the Greek. I only wish more Jewish people live around me. I also truly want to believe that the Lord has an amazing plan for helping us in softening the hearts of the Jewish people.

wendy-p-marshall
Feb 1st 2016, 06:13 PM
Wendy

It's my opinion that those Jews who love God, and serve Him go to Abraham's bosom. But, there are those who deny God in every way just as there is the same with Gentiles.

But, we all need Jesus to go to heaven. All need evangelized.

I'm not too certain about the Abraham's bosom doctrine though. I recently listened to a sermon about this subject which seems to debunk this. I don't really know though. Perhaps you are correct, and it is real Biblical teaching I'm not too sure.

Here's a video if you want to watch:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9shZsN-EFs

Fenris
Feb 1st 2016, 06:38 PM
Jews pray to God, of course. :)

David Taylor
Feb 1st 2016, 07:01 PM
The faithful in the OT new Jesus; they may not have known Him by that name; but they knew Him according to the scriptures.

Moses knew Jesus.
Speaking to the Jews, Jesus said:
"5:39 Search the scriptures(The Old Testament); for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? " John 5:39

Abraham knew Jesus.
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. " John 8:56

Job and Isaiah also knew Jesus; and looked forward to the day Jesus would raise themselves from the dead.
Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

Isaiah 53:7, 26:19 "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. "


Daniel knew Jesus.
Daniel 3:25/7:13 "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Jacob knew Jesus.
Genesis 32:24 "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Fenris
Feb 1st 2016, 07:07 PM
The faithful in the OT new Jesus; they may not have known Him by that name; but they knew Him according to the scriptures.
Problem is, many of them lived before such scripture existed. It's impossible for Abraham or Moses to have believed the same things as a first century Jew, let alone a first century Christian.

pekoe
Feb 1st 2016, 07:34 PM
Problem is, many of them lived before such scripture existed. It's impossible for Abraham or Moses to have believed the same things as a first century Jew, let alone a first century Christian.
No Fenris, it is not, because God made a promise to Abraham:

"And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him." Gen.17:19

Later, God commands Abraham to offer Isaac and Abraham obeys, because he knows God keeps His word and there is no way God can fulfill His promise if Isaac is dead...unless God raises his son from the dead. This was Abraham's faith and this is the gospel.

Fenris
Feb 1st 2016, 07:38 PM
No Fenris, it is not, because God made a promise to Abraham:

... This was Abraham's faith and this is the gospel.
Saying that Abraham believed that God could raise the dead does not mean that Abraham believed exactly as a first century Jew did. As I have said, that is not possible. The scripture that created the beliefs of a first century Jew did not yet exist. He believed in God as God presented Himself to Abraham.

Reynolds357
Feb 1st 2016, 07:45 PM
Jews pray to God, of course. :)

Just out of curiosity who do you believe Jesus of Nazareth was?
I know many Jews view Him as a prophet. Many view him as a heretic. It is kind of hard for me to see Him as a prophet. As C.S. Lewis said, "He is either Lord, Liar, or Lunatic."

Fenris
Feb 1st 2016, 07:46 PM
Just out of curiosity who do you believe Jesus of Nazareth was?

If I answer, this topic goes woosh! Right into contro.

keck553
Feb 1st 2016, 08:18 PM
Good point.



I truly want to believe that I will be able to give testimony of the Saving Gospel of Christ to as many souls as God will allow me. To the Jew first, and also to the Greek. I only wish more Jewish people live around me. I also truly want to believe that the Lord has an amazing plan for helping us in softening the hearts of the Jewish people.

In this, God will provide the right circumstances for you to proclaim Christ. Those opportunities may not come at the pace we would like. What we need to do in the mean times is testify of our faith by how we conduct our lives and walk in the Way.

Reynolds357
Feb 1st 2016, 08:19 PM
If I answer, this topic goes woosh! Right into contro.

Pm. me the answer please. I am not wanting to debate you about it, I just want to know.

pekoe
Feb 2nd 2016, 04:11 PM
Saying that Abraham believed that God could raise the dead does not mean that Abraham believed exactly as a first century Jew did. As I have said, that is not possible. The scripture that created the beliefs of a first century Jew did not yet exist. He believed in God as God presented Himself to Abraham.
Well, God presented Himself to Abraham as Someone who would raised his promised son (Isaac) from the dead and the 1st century Jews who wrote to us, said your God raised Abrahams' son (Jesus) from the dead...so, Abraham believed exactly as the 1st century Jews did. At least the Jews who came into contact with the Messiah.

Fenris
Feb 2nd 2016, 04:30 PM
Well, God presented Himself to Abraham as Someone who would raised his promised son (Isaac) from the dead and the 1st century Jews who wrote to us, said your God raised Abrahams' son (Jesus) from the dead...
So that's it, Jesus is just that one point? Being raised from the dead? What about the hundreds messianic prophecies in scripture? They were nearly all written after Abraham and Moses and all describe aspects of the messiah that were unknown to Abraham and Moses.

pekoe
Feb 2nd 2016, 05:35 PM
So that's it, Jesus is just that one point? Being raised from the dead?
Of course not, but you said it wasn't possible for Abraham to have the same understanding of God as a 1st century Jew and I just showed you one example that he did.


What about the hundreds messianic prophecies in scripture? Yes, what about them? Why are we discussing your God? Why does this board even exist? Who is responsible for all this?


They were nearly all written after Abraham and Moses and all describe aspects of the messiah that were unknown to Abraham and Moses.
I wouldn't say that's necessarily true of those two heavyweights, but I will say this. You said some things to me a couple years ago that opened my eyes to the Messiah in a way I never saw Him before, because in spite of long held Christian beliefs I had, I actually listened to what you were saying. It's good to know that anyone of us can believe things that aren't true.

One of your ancient sages is reported to have said:

"...if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought, but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Acts 5:38-39

Fenris
Feb 2nd 2016, 06:19 PM
Of course not, but you said it wasn't possible for Abraham to have the same understanding of God as a 1st century Jew and I just showed you one example that he did.No, you proved my point. That one area was a place where they could agree. The rest of the bible, being unwritten as of yet, would not have been agreed upon.


Yes, what about them? Abraham couldn't know them as they hadn't been written yet.


You said some things to me a couple years ago that opened my eyes to the Messiah in a way I never saw Him before, because in spite of long held Christian beliefs I had, I actually listened to what you were saying. It's good to know that anyone of us can believe things that aren't true. Yes, any of us could be wrong. All of us, even.


One of your ancient sages is reported to have said:

"...if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought, but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Acts 5:38-39I'm familiar with the concept. It's also in the Talmud, interestingly enough. Your point being...?

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 2nd 2016, 11:57 PM
Only The Most High Himself knows the individuals heart, and who they are praying to.

My thoughts, from different testimonies and personal experiences are this: The LORD reveals Himself (Jesus, the Truth) to those who seek GOD and the truth in all sincerity and humility. He gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud. At some point in this process, He gives the person understanding of their sins and need of the Savior, as GOD has made but One Way (Jesus Christ) for said person to be reconciled to Him.

For those people who say that they know the truth/way, that they know GOD, but hold to some new-age or countless other examples of false gods, they have either rejected the Truth (Jesus Christ according to the scriptures) because of their own pride or whatever reasons, or they're still in the process of seeking and the LORD is allowing them to be deceived for a season until He reveals Himself to them.

With the Jews, one way to look at it is "Well, they reject the Messiah, Yeshua - but they're better off than most because at least they believe in His Father". This brings up the obvious problem that there's One Father, and His only begotten Son is Yeshua, etc. Another way to look at it is "Well, they're worse off for claiming to know the Father but reject His Son, see the scriptures regarding similar situations with Pharisees, etc". Good point.

Like keck said, it's above our pay-grade. Especially when you consider Romans 11, and the process of the gentiles being grafted into the commonwealth of Israel through their rejection of the Messiah, etc. The question becomes, at what point is the fullness of the gentiles brought in, and the door to said Messiah (as-Yeshua) rejecting Jews close? Again, above our pay-grade. Just pray that the LORD reveal Himself to every single Jew who prays to the Father, and let Him be God. In the meantime, we proclaim that there is 1 name under heaven by which men might be saved (Acts 4:12), that name is Jesus Christ, the Son of the Most High, and any/every Jew who is going to be saved will be saved by this LORD and in His name.

keck553
Feb 3rd 2016, 01:48 AM
Only The Most High Himself knows the individuals heart, and who they are praying to.

My thoughts, from different testimonies and personal experiences are this: The LORD reveals Himself (Jesus, the Truth) to those who seek GOD and the truth in all sincerity and humility. He gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud. At some point in this process, He gives the person understanding of their sins and need of the Savior, as GOD has made but One Way (Jesus Christ) for said person to be reconciled to Him.

For those people who say that they know the truth/way, that they know GOD, but hold to some new-age or countless other examples of false gods, they have either rejected the Truth (Jesus Christ according to the scriptures) because of their own pride or whatever reasons, or they're still in the process of seeking and the LORD is allowing them to be deceived for a season until He reveals Himself to them.

With the Jews, one way to look at it is "Well, they reject the Messiah, Yeshua - but they're better off than most because at least they believe in His Father". This brings up the obvious problem that there's One Father, and His only begotten Son is Yeshua, etc. Another way to look at it is "Well, they're worse off for claiming to know the Father but reject His Son, see the scriptures regarding similar situations with Pharisees, etc". Good point.

Like keck said, it's above our pay-grade. Especially when you consider Romans 11, and the process of the gentiles being grafted into the commonwealth of Israel through their rejection of the Messiah, etc. The question becomes, at what point is the fullness of the gentiles brought in, and the door to said Messiah (as-Yeshua) rejecting Jews close? Again, above our pay-grade. Just pray that the LORD reveal Himself to every single Jew who prays to the Father, and let Him be God. In the meantime, we proclaim that there is 1 name under heaven by which men might be saved (Acts 4:12), that name is Jesus Christ, the Son of the Most High, and any/every Jew who is going to be saved will be saved by this LORD and in His name.

Good post. God waited for me for almost 50 years. If God is patient with me, who am I to be in patient with anyone?

pekoe
Feb 3rd 2016, 06:34 AM
No, you proved my point. That one area was a place where they could agree. The rest of the bible, being unwritten as of yet, would not have been agreed upon.
From what the Jews who wrote the NT said, it does to me.


Abraham couldn't know them as they hadn't been written yet.
It would only matter if Abrahams' understanding of God conflicted with later writings, but it doesn't.


Yes, any of us could be wrong. All of us, even.
I'm familiar with the concept. It's also in the Talmud, interestingly enough. Your point being...?
My point is, have you ever seriously considered that the promises made to your people will be fulfilled when Jesus raises the dead?

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2016, 01:47 PM
It would only matter if Abrahams' understanding of God conflicted with later writings, but it doesn't.
My point is that Abraham's beliefs did not include later writings at all, as they didn't exist yet. Could Abraham believe in a servant of God that would suffer for the sins of mankind? No, he couldn't. He had no place to learn that concept. Get it?


My point is, have you ever seriously considered that the promises made to your people will be fulfilled when Jesus raises the dead?
Ah. You mean some of God's promises to the Jewish people have not yet been fulfilled?

pekoe
Feb 3rd 2016, 05:11 PM
My point is that Abraham's beliefs did not include later writings at all, as they didn't exist yet. Could Abraham believe in a servant of God that would suffer for the sins of mankind? No, he couldn't. He had no place to learn that concept. Get it?
How can you say that, when revelation comes from God?

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Jn.8:56


Ah. You mean some of God's promises to the Jewish people have not yet been fulfilled?
That's obvious. When God said to Abraham,

"For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever." Gen.13:15

He meant it literally, that He was going to give it to Abrahams' children...and to Abraham himself for ever:

"...Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..." Mt.25:34

"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err." Mk.12:26-27

As I asked you, why are we even discussing this? Here's why:

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." Is.11:10

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2016, 05:24 PM
How can you say that, when revelation comes from God?
And God revealed the entire bible to Abraham? My bible doesn't say that.



That's obvious.Plenty here feel otherwise. You really should take it up with them.

pekoe
Feb 3rd 2016, 05:44 PM
And God revealed the entire bible to Abraham?
I don't know why you're stuck on that. My point was, Abraham knew God would fulfill His promise after raising him from the dead.
My bible doesn't say that.
Neither does mine.


Plenty here feel otherwise. You really should take it up with them.
Plenty here feel God punished an innocent Man for our sins...but you and I know God doesn't do that.

Fenris
Feb 3rd 2016, 06:18 PM
I don't know why you're stuck on that. My point was, Abraham knew God would fulfill His promise after raising him from the dead.My point for a while has been that Abraham could not believe the same things as people who came after him because he did not have the same information available.


Plenty here feel God punished an innocent Man for our sins...but you and I know God doesn't do that.
Then bring them into the light

pekoe
Feb 4th 2016, 02:00 AM
My point for a while has been that Abraham could not believe the same things as people who came after him because he did not have the same information available.

We can't know if He had the same info...but he no doubt had the same Source.


Then bring them into the light
That's difficult to do when people refuse to listen. Quite frankly my friend, you do the same thing when you assert Jesus didn't fulfill xyz, then ignore what Jesus said about xyz.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 4th 2016, 06:16 AM
Plenty here feel God punished an innocent Man for our sins...but you and I know God doesn't do that.

Could you please clarify what you mean here?

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 11:21 AM
We can't know if He had the same info...
Abraham had the book of Isaiah? I really doubt that.


Quite frankly my friend, you do the same thing when you assert Jesus didn't fulfill xyz, then ignore what Jesus said about xyz.
Maybe you should get all the Christians on board before working on those outside the religion.

Trivalee
Feb 4th 2016, 01:47 PM
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (I John 2:23)

Who are the Jews praying to if they don't have the Son?

I'm trying to make sense of this, but I find it hard to believe that Jews can have access to the Father without acknowledging the Son.

It seems to me that they aren't worshiping any idols or anything as far as I can tell. But if they don't have the Son, neither the Father, then whom do they have?

P.S.: I am referring to Jews who practice Judaism not the Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus Christ.

They worship the same God Christians believe in: God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Does God hear their prayers, I believe he does. But the price they (Jews) pay for rejecting the Son and mediator is that all that die (Heb 9:27) before God's unconditional amnesty and reconciliation of Israel (Romans 11:26) will not be saved. If you consider the number, it is indeed a high price to pay!

Truthseeker101
Feb 4th 2016, 01:59 PM
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 02:09 PM
If you consider the number, it is indeed a high price to pay!



Also, we miss out on juicy bacon! :cry:

pekoe
Feb 4th 2016, 02:58 PM
Abraham had the book of Isaiah? I really doubt that.
I think it's possible God shared with Abraham more than is written. It's not a biggie.


Maybe you should get all the Christians on board before working on those outside the religion.
I'm ambidextrous.

Trivalee
Feb 4th 2016, 03:01 PM
Also, we miss out on juicy bacon! :cry:

Might be a joke right now, but on the day of Judgement, it won't be.:blush:

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 03:12 PM
I'm ambidextrous.
Ha. Actually pretty funny! :lol:

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 03:27 PM
Might be a joke right now, but on the day of Judgement, it won't be.:blush:

No, I agree, the state of my immortal soul is very important. That's why I carefully examined all angles before deciding that Judaism was correct.

Trivalee
Feb 4th 2016, 03:49 PM
No, I agree, the state of my immortal soul is very important. That's why I carefully examined all angles before deciding that Judaism was correct.

And if it's wrong?

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 03:52 PM
And if it's wrong?
What if you're wrong?

No, you can't possibly entertain that idea. Why should I?

Stonesoffire
Feb 4th 2016, 03:53 PM
There are those that say when Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac, that God not only spoke to him but gave a vision of Him. Jesus seems to corroborate this idea when He said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day.

I believe this to be true. But, I don't know if this is what Pekoe is referring to.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 03:55 PM
There are those that say
How do these people know information that God didn't see fit to put into the bible? Yeah.

Stonesoffire
Feb 4th 2016, 04:01 PM
I guess by looking at the Hebrew.

Please forgive our crassness Fenris. Is that a word? Seems to fit anyway.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 04:04 PM
I guess by looking at the Hebrew. I've read the Hebrew. Trust me, no visions of Jesus in Genesis 22.


Please forgive our crassness Fenris. There's nothing to forgive. :) I'm always just a bit skeptical when people purport to know things that weren't included in the bible. I don't like when Jews do it either.

pekoe
Feb 4th 2016, 04:16 PM
Could you please clarify what you mean here?
Sure.

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief..." Is.53:10

Jesus came because we are sinners, to turn us to God and suffered because of this. He suffered because of God all the way to the cross:

"..., when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God." 1 Pe.2:20

Gods' desire was:

"...They will reverence my son." Mt.21:37


But Jesus was:

"... suffering wrongfully. 1 Pe.2:19

Do you understand this so far?

Stonesoffire
Feb 4th 2016, 04:17 PM
I've read the Hebrew. Trust me, no visions of Jesus in Genesis 22.
There's nothing to forgive. :) I'm always just a bit skeptical when people purport to know things that weren't included in the bible. I don't like when Jews do it either.


If you don't know me by now, you will soon see that I like a challenge. :) So I looked to see...and all of a sudden strange apparitions.....kidding

i did look at the words in Hebrew. The word "looked" is ra ah. It does transliterate to visions, perception, etc.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 04:24 PM
If you don't know me by now, you will soon see that I like a challenge. :)
:o


So I looked to see...and all of a sudden strange apparitions.....kiddingI think they make medicine for that....?


i did look at the words in Hebrew. The word "looked" is ra ah. It does transliterate to visions, perception, etc.The word for "vision" is usually חֲזוֹן "Chazon", as in Isaiah 1:1. But really, Hebrew is like English. You can "see" an object in front of you or you can "see" a vision. Anyone who tells you that words have a secret or special meaning is making it up.

Stonesoffire
Feb 4th 2016, 04:43 PM
Really? The prophets were speaking by inspiration....the scriptures are God breathed. This is not entirely intellectual Fenris. Holy Spirit has not left the building....:)

and the the word would not be secrets, but mysteries. Secrets are those people take pride in. Mysteries are entirely of a higher realm. Spirit.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 05:05 PM
With that attitude you can find whatever you like in scripture. Each person can have their own, personal bible, with hidden meanings revealed by the spirit. All "correct" according to them and all irrefutable and also unprovable.

Really not a fan.

Stonesoffire
Feb 4th 2016, 05:12 PM
I can't see how that would be Fenris because we are admonished to compare scripture with scripture.

If I had not seen the words perceive and vision in the word ra'ah, then what I had heard would make no sense. But, I remember what Jesus said and it rings true.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 05:18 PM
If I had not seen the words perceive and vision in the word ra'ah, then what I had heard would make no sense. But, I remember what Jesus said and it rings true.

See, this is exactly what I was saying. You've just found a new, hidden meaning for a Hebrew word that only applies when you need it to justify your ideas. It's a recipe for utter chaos.

Stonesoffire
Feb 4th 2016, 08:56 PM
Maybe if one did not believe what Jesus said, Fenris.

Stonesoffire
Feb 4th 2016, 09:00 PM
It's not really hidden either. It's in the concordance.

Fenris
Feb 4th 2016, 09:08 PM
Maybe if one did not believe what Jesus said, Fenris.

I don't see what believing Jesus has to do with it.


It's not really hidden either. It's in the concordance. I have no idea what this means.

dan
Feb 5th 2016, 10:24 AM
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (I John 2:23)

Who are the Jews praying to if they don't have the Son?

I'm trying to make sense of this, but I find it hard to believe that Jews can have access to the Father without acknowledging the Son.

It seems to me that they aren't worshiping any idols or anything as far as I can tell. But if they don't have the Son, neither the Father, then whom do they have?


P.S.: I am referring to Jews who practice Judaism not the Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus Christ.

The Jews pray to the same person you are supposed to pray to: GOD THE FATHER.

The only difference is that we Christians pray to the Father IN JESUS' NAME, and thereby, impose Jesus as an intermediary.

Fenris
Feb 5th 2016, 10:42 AM
All the Jews who lived prior to the coming of Jesus also prayed "to the father" and not "in Jesus's name"

Discuss.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 5th 2016, 11:07 AM
All the Jews who lived prior to the coming of Jesus also prayed "to the father" and not "in Jesus's name"

Discuss.

That was Old Covenant, where they weren't expected to pray in Jesus name.

dan
Feb 5th 2016, 11:21 AM
All the Jews who lived prior to the coming of Jesus also prayed "to the father" and not "in Jesus's name"

Discuss.

I suspect that, due to the following of all 618 (?) points of the Law, the Jews were considered "clean" enough to speak directly to God.

Whereas, Christians never intended to follow all the points of the Law, and need Jesus to be a "go between" with God since they cannot be "clean" enough to speak directly with God by just following the instructions of Jesus.

Fenris
Feb 5th 2016, 11:24 AM
I suspect that, due to the following of all 618 (?) points of the Law, the Jews were considered "clean" enough to speak directly to God.

Whereas, Christians never intended to follow all the points of the Law, and need Jesus to be a "go between" with God since they cannot be "clean" enough to speak directly with God by just following the instructions of Jesus.
King Solomon's dedication of the temple in 1 Kings 8: As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name— for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel

Fenris
Feb 5th 2016, 11:25 AM
That was Old Covenant, where they weren't expected to pray in Jesus name.

So there was a time when praying directly to God was considered ok? When exactly did this change?

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 5th 2016, 11:45 AM
So there was a time when praying directly to God was considered ok? When exactly did this change?

Well when the New Covenant was implemented, anyone (including Jews) who wanted to be children of the Most High would have to abide in His New Covenant and all that it entailed. Same idea as the Old Covenant.

Fenris
Feb 5th 2016, 11:52 AM
Well when the New Covenant was implemented, anyone (including Jews) who wanted to be children of the Most High would have to abide in His New Covenant and all that it entailed. Same idea as the Old Covenant.

I see logistical problems with this idea.

When the covenant at Sinai was enacted, every person who was party to that covenant was present. Exodus 19:

Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

So God offered the people assembled a covenant, and they accepted it.

Now let's look at your idea for this new covenant.

You're saying it went into effect immediately. I suppose that would mean, at the latest, at the crucifixion. But all the people party to this covenant were not present to accept or reject it. Not even all the world's Jews were present, let alone everyone in the world, who you say this also applies to.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 5th 2016, 01:07 PM
I see logistical problems with this idea.

When the covenant at Sinai was enacted, every person who was party to that covenant was present. Exodus 19:

Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

So God offered the people assembled a covenant, and they accepted it.

Now let's look at your idea for this new covenant.

You're saying it went into effect immediately. I suppose that would mean, at the latest, at the crucifixion. But all the people party to this covenant were not present to accept or reject it. Not even all the world's Jews were present, let alone everyone in the world, who you say this also applies to.

I understand your perspective, I think. In retrospect, it may appear as if the New Covenant was quickly or immediately implemented and thus certain people were perhaps left out or missed the memo, etc. But, the LORD is faithful and good as you know, and He made sure the transition was known to all of the Jews. In my understanding (the brethren please correct me if/where I am in error) the transition period was 3.5 years, with the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7) being pretty much the climax and point in the picture of the community of the Jews' final rejection of the gospel. This ended the 70 weeks of Daniel and people knew what was being presented when they rejected it (in teeth gnashing murderous fashion no less). But the entire ministry of Jesus Christ on earth and of His disciples up until that point had really been specifically for the Jews. It wasn't until after this it went out to the gentiles, etc.

Also, the fact that not all of the Jews were physically present at a particular gospel preaching event doesn't mean that they missed the boat or memo. It was a pretty big deal that someone claiming to be the Messiah was going around performing miracles, preaching to the Jews in their synagogues and in public places, etc. Jesus walked people through scriptures and prophecies they had been familiar with for how long? I would like to know which of the Jews didn't hear about this, even if they never left their place of residence, there's just no way, the LORD was incredibly faithful to His people and wouldn't just leave someone out. On that same train of thought, I would like to know which place of Jewish worship/fellowship didn't hear of what was going on. The beautiful part is that this was all part of the plan, and if it wasn't for the rejection by the Jews, the rest of humanity really wouldn't have had a chance to be grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, and the LORD is still faithful to all of the Jews in that any and all of them who call upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ shall be saved.

Fenris
Feb 5th 2016, 01:39 PM
But, the LORD is faithful and good as you know, and He made sure the transition was known to all of the Jews. The transition period was 3.5 yearsI am incredibly skeptical of this figure. Jews in far off places like Babylon or out of the way places like Yemen would not have heard about Jesus for generations or even centuries. If some of the claimants of Jewish ancestry like the Falashas in Ethiopia or the Bnei Menashe in India are actually Jewish, you can up it to over a thousand years.



Also, the fact that not all of the Jews were physically present at a particular gospel preaching event doesn't mean that they missed the boat or memo. It was a pretty big deal that someone claiming to be the Messiah was going around performing miracles, preaching to the Jews in their synagogues and in public places, etc.
Your obviously not familiar with first century Judea. Information traveled very slowly, of one thing. Also, there were numerous Jewish messiah claimants in the first century. Wikipedia lists seven, including Jesus, if you are interested. And hearing about somebody is definitely not the same as hearing from somebody, and does not seem to be a legitimate way to make a covenant with an entire people. They have to be granted terms and the opportunity to accept of reject, as at Sinai. That certainly seems the fairest way.


The beautiful part is that this was all part of the plan, and if it wasn't for the rejection by the Jews, the rest of humanity really wouldn't have had a chance
Yeah that is a fair point. I've heard it said that if the Jews had accepted Jesus, Christianity would have remained a sect within Judaism. Then there would be no Christians today and the history of the world would be totally different.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 5th 2016, 02:08 PM
I am incredibly skeptical of this figure. Jews in far off places like Babylon or out of the way places like Yemen would not have heard about Jesus for generations or even centuries. If some of the claimants of Jewish ancestry like the Falashas in Ethiopia or the Bnei Menashe in India are actually Jewish, you can up it to over a thousand years.

Your obviously not familiar with first century Judea. Information traveled very slowly, of one thing. Also, there were numerous Jewish messiah claimants in the first century. Wikipedia lists seven, including Jesus, if you are interested. And hearing about somebody is definitely not the same as hearing from somebody, and does not seem to be a legitimate way to make a covenant with an entire people. They have to be granted terms and the opportunity to accept of reject, as at Sinai. That certainly seems the fairest way.

Yeah that is a fair point. I've heard it said that if the Jews had accepted Jesus, Christianity would have remained a sect within Judaism. Then there would be no Christians today and the history of the world would be totally different.

Yeah to my shame I am not as well studied as I should be of Old Testament, and of the Jewish ancestry and culture. But I am learning, praise the LORD. Also, not to sound like a cop-out, but everyone who was supposed to hear the gospel and to receive it during that time, did. The rest, did later or will yet as He wills (in my opinion). My plea to you, and to any Jew is simply this: seek the Most High in sincerity and ask Him if these crazy Christians are correct in claiming that Yeshua is the Messiah. One thing I know that I know through personal experience and testimony of others is that He reveals Himself to those who ask in humility and sincerity. Scriptures confirm He is no respecter of persons, and that He dealt and reacted well to those with unbelief so long as their attitude was "LORD I believe, help mine unbelief". In other words, if someone comes to the LORD with an attitude of "Father, I don't know what I believe regarding (----), but help me believe and understand what it is that You would have me believe/understand" - He respects that and is faithful to reveal and respond. Worth a shot, I know He loves you and me and the next guy a whole bunch. :)

Fenris
Feb 5th 2016, 02:23 PM
Yeah to my shame I am not as well studied as I should be of Old Testament, and of the Jewish ancestry and culture. But I am learning, praise the LORD. Also, not to sound like a cop-out, but everyone who was supposed to hear the gospel and to receive it during that time, did. The rest, did later or will yet as He wills (in my opinion).
Is this Christian doctrine or your opinion?


My plea to you, and to any Jew is simply this: seek the Most High in sincerity and ask Him if these crazy Christians are correct in claiming that Yeshua is the Messiah. One thing I know that I know through personal experience and testimony of others is that He reveals Himself to those who ask in humility and sincerity. Scriptures confirm He is no respecter of persons, and that He dealt and reacted well to those with unbelief so long as their attitude was "LORD I believe, help mine unbelief". I am not in unbelief. I love God and follow His commands. That is all the bible requires of me.

CadyandZoe
Feb 5th 2016, 03:02 PM
The Jews pray to the same person you are supposed to pray to: GOD THE FATHER.

The only difference is that we Christians pray to the Father IN JESUS' NAME, and thereby, impose Jesus as an intermediary.

I don't think Jesus is our intermediary; he is our intercessor, though.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 5th 2016, 03:21 PM
Is this Christian doctrine or your opinion? Well, my understanding of Romans 11 and different scriptures lead me to believe that the Jews at large would reject the Messiah, but in the appointed time many would receive Him. I don't know if I would consider that doctrine, but it's certainly proven to have been the case and still does to this day.


I am not in unbelief. I love God and follow His commands. That is all the bible requires of me. Well, yeah I guess from your perspective for sure. I was referring to unbelief with respect to Yeshua being the Messiah. You love God and follow His commands excluding the Messiah and NT is obviously what I meant. And I was just putting myself in your shoes, saying I would ask Him if Yeshua was in fact the Messiah and if so to have Him reveal that to me. Not trying to offend, sorry if I did Fenris

Fenris
Feb 5th 2016, 04:15 PM
Well, my understanding of Romans 11 and different scriptures lead me to believe that the Jews at large would reject the Messiah, but in the appointed time many would receive Him. I don't know if I would consider that doctrine, but it's certainly proven to have been the case and still does to this day.
I see...



Well, yeah I guess from your perspective for sure. I was referring to unbelief with respect to Yeshua being the Messiah. Right. well that's different from unbelief in general. I don't feel spiritually lacking, I have a relationship with God.


And I was just putting myself in your shoes, saying I would ask Him if Yeshua was in fact the Messiah and if so to have Him reveal that to me. Should I do that for every religion just to be on the safe side?



Not trying to offend, sorry if I did Fenris

No offense taken, don't worry. We're just having an interesting chat. It's all good! :)

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 6th 2016, 01:03 AM
I see...Right. well that's different from unbelief in general.

Yeah, different in that unbelief in general rejects the Most High and the Messiah, opposed to believing the Most High and rejecting the Messiah. I agree there.


I don't feel spiritually lacking, I have a relationship with God. that's understandable, is that doctrine or just your opinion? In other words, does the Torah/your scriptures say to go by your feeling or does it prophecy of the Messiah, and it would be on you to make sure if the Most High sends Him, you receive Him and seek the Most High for discernment on the matter if unsure? See what I mean? With that being said, if I rejected the Messiah Yeshua but believed the Most High and tried to personally have relationship with Him through keeping the law, I would be dead and without relationship to Him because I have broken all of the law, am a sinner and have no forgiveness of my sins and no reconciliation to Him for right standing/relations through His sacrifice for me in Yeshua. The whole point of the Messiah being sent was that I couldn't keep the law and be in right standing with Yahuwah on my own, right?


Should I do that for every religion just to be on the safe side? I get your point, but to be fair, does every religion consist of the Most High which you accept and the Messiah that He claims is Yeshua, which you're rejecting? See, I don't do that for every religion at all. I did however go back and look at the Messianic prophetic scriptures once I received the Messiah, and read/studied the scriptures of the Old Testament/covenant, which is the backwards or contrast to what I was asking if you did regarding Yeshua.

See, let's be objective and reasonable/fair on this: if you're right, than you're ok with Yahuwah, have a relationship with Him, and are doing what He said (obeying His commands as you said in an earlier post). No problem, I agree on this. To further be fair and objective, in that scenario Christians such as myself have believed in a false Messiah (Yeshua) and are most likely lost/deceived. However if you're wrong, than is it fair to say that although you claim to be ok/right with The Most High and have a relationship with Him, and that you're obeying Him by keeping His commands, you're actually deceived, and by rejecting His salvation in Yeshua which He commanded all (including Jews) to accept and abide in and be reconciled to The Most High in order to have that right standing and relationship with Him? That's the point I was making in putting myself in your shoes, asking Him if Yeshua is the Messiah to reveal it to you because if it's true you want to accept Him and believe that, but if not you want to just be safe and upright in asking Him etc. I guess it's easier for me on this side to picture myself doing than you over there doing (you most likely roll your eyes and think no way lol).


No offense taken, don't worry. We're just having an interesting chat. It's all good! :) Amen, yeah I don't get to have discussions with many Jews, especially any who I can talk to about this topic so praise the LORD and thank you for the conversation :)

dan
Feb 6th 2016, 03:04 AM
I don't think Jesus is our intermediary; he is our intercessor, though.

One online dictionary says they are the same thing:

intermediary - 1 a person who acts as a link between people in order to try to bring about an agreement or reconciliation; a mediator
~ synonyms: mediator, go-between, negotiator, intervenor, intercessor

CadyandZoe
Feb 6th 2016, 02:14 PM
One online dictionary says they are the same thing:

intermediary - 1 a person who acts as a link between people in order to try to bring about an agreement or reconciliation; a mediator
~ synonyms: mediator, go-between, negotiator, intervenor, intercessor

We can see from the dictionary entry that the function of intercessor is part of the job of an intermediary. I'll grant you that. Now, the question is whether Jesus is a link between man and God such that if man did not have Jesus, man could not pray to God or seek his aid. To answer that question I take my cues from Jesus' own teaching, who taught is disciples to pray, "Our Father, who art in heaven . . ." etc. Jesus taught us that we can approach the father directly and pray to him directly without an intermediary.

keck553
Feb 6th 2016, 08:20 PM
Daniel 9 is a good chapter to see how Jews pray.

With the situation in Israel as it is today, am sure there is much prayer. I've seen pics of soldiers reading their bibles with full army gear and rifles. I love Israel and their ways.


Yes, indeed. .


http://youtu.be/Wahd2piIr4Q

Fenris
Feb 7th 2016, 01:31 PM
that's understandable, is that doctrine or just your opinion? In other words, does the Torah/your scriptures say to go by your feeling or does it prophecy of the Messiah, and it would be on you to make sure if the Most High sends Him, you receive Him and seek the Most High for discernment on the matter if unsure? See what I mean? With that being said, if I rejected the Messiah Yeshua but believed the Most High and tried to personally have relationship with Him through keeping the law, I would be dead and without relationship to Him because I have broken all of the law, am a sinner and have no forgiveness of my sins and no reconciliation to Him for right standing/relations through His sacrifice for me in Yeshua. The whole point of the Messiah being sent was that I couldn't keep the law and be in right standing with Yahuwah on my own, right?That's a Christian belief though. Not a Jewish one. In Judaism God doesn't expect perfection. He expects maximum effort, and when we fall short, well, that's the whole point of repentance and forgiveness isn't it?


I get your point, but to be fair, does every religion consist of the Most High which you accept and the Messiah that He claims is Yeshua, which you're rejecting?
Every religion makes various claims.




See, let's be objective and reasonable/fair on this: if you're right, than you're ok with Yahuwah, have a relationship with Him, and are doing what He said (obeying His commands as you said in an earlier post). No problem, I agree on this. To further be fair and objective, in that scenario Christians such as myself have believed in a false Messiah (Yeshua) and are most likely lost/deceived. However if you're wrong, than is it fair to say that although you claim to be ok/right with The Most High and have a relationship with Him, and that you're obeying Him by keeping His commands, you're actually deceived, and by rejecting His salvation in Yeshua which He commanded all (including Jews) to accept and abide in and be reconciled to The Most High in order to have that right standing and relationship with Him? That's the point I was making in putting myself in your shoes, asking Him if Yeshua is the Messiah to reveal it to you because if it's true you want to accept Him and believe that, but if not you want to just be safe and upright in asking Him etc. I guess it's easier for me on this side to picture myself doing than you over there doing (you most likely roll your eyes and think no way lol).I don't like the whole line of thinking that one should believe in the "safest" thing. One should strive to believe in the truth, wherever that may lead them.




Amen, yeah I don't get to have discussions with many Jews, especially any who I can talk to about this topic so praise the LORD and thank you for the conversation :)

The pleasure is all mine, God bless!

RogerW
Feb 7th 2016, 02:39 PM
My point is that Abraham's beliefs did not include later writings at all, as they didn't exist yet. Could Abraham believe in a servant of God that would suffer for the sins of mankind? No, he couldn't. He had no place to learn that concept. Get it?

This is not true Fenris. Abraham died in faith looking for the promise of His coming to redeem him from the grave. How did Abraham know that Messiah would come? God preached the gospel to him. That is how Abraham was able to believer [have faith]. For Christ would come through the physical seed of Abraham, becoming the father of the faithful.

Ga*3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Ga*3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Feb 7th 2016, 02:48 PM
How do these people know information that God didn't see fit to put into the bible? Yeah.

But what Abraham knew and believed is written for us in the Bible. You don't accept it because you refuse to receive the New Testament Scripture.

Heb*11:8-16 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Fenris
Feb 7th 2016, 05:54 PM
This is not true Fenris. Abraham died in faith looking for the promise of His coming to redeem him from the grave. How did Abraham know that Messiah would come?

Abraham wasn't waiting for any messiah. The word would have meant nothing to him. That part of the bible didn't exist yet.

dan
Feb 7th 2016, 10:31 PM
We can see from the dictionary entry that the function of intercessor is part of the job of an intermediary. I'll grant you that. Now, the question is whether Jesus is a link between man and God such that if man did not have Jesus, man could not pray to God or seek his aid. To answer that question I take my cues from Jesus' own teaching, who taught is disciples to pray, "Our Father, who art in heaven . . ." etc. Jesus taught us that we can approach the father directly and pray to him directly without an intermediary.

Well, yes, but what kind of prayer is that?

I think it is a prayer of Worship and general necessities, perhaps?

Jesus tells us to ask the Father for things "In His Name."

Doesn't He?

CadyandZoe
Feb 8th 2016, 12:52 AM
Well, yes, but what kind of prayer is that?

I think it is a prayer of Worship and general necessities, perhaps?

Jesus tells us to ask the Father for things "In His Name."

Doesn't He?

Jesus tells his disciples to expect the Father to answer a prayer asked in Jesus' name. However, this is different than adding the phrase "in Jesus name" at the end of a prayer. To ask for something "in Jesus name" is to ask under the authority of Jesus. The Apostles were acting under the authority of Jesus. And unless Jesus specifically tells me personally that I am working for him, then I am not allowed or given permission to ask anything in his name.

ewq1938
Feb 8th 2016, 01:32 AM
They are praying to God. It ain't really complicated, they have known God for 3500 years.

Why did Jesus say they didn't?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.


John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.


Jesus isn't stating anything that was new:

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

The Jews stopped knowing God a long time ago but we should all pray that this changes and that all eventually find faith in Jesus the Messiah.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 8th 2016, 03:14 AM
Why did Jesus say they didn't?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.


John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.


Jesus isn't stating anything that was new:

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

The Jews stopped knowing God a long time ago but we should all pray that this changes and that all eventually find faith in Jesus the Messiah.

Yeah, this is an example of a hard saying that many fear to preach/teach (or touch with a 10 foot pole for that matter). In other words, if this is true, Jews who claim to know God (The Father) but at the same time reject Jesus Christ, don't know Him as they claim to. I agree with this but the only thing that I would like clarification on is how does this work with respect to Romans 11, the fullness of the gentiles, Jews eyes being opened to Jesus being the Messiah etc? In other words, isn't there a time yet to come when many Jews will receive Jesus as Messiah, and how do the mechanics of that work with respect to timeframes?

It's hard to articulate what I am asking, but my question would be those Jews who now pray to YHWH (while rejecting Jesus for now but will accept Him later), is it possible that they 'know' Him (Father) as much as they possibly can until the mechanics of the fullness of the gentiles is completed and a good majority of Jews receive Jesus as Messiah afterwards? If I am way off base please direct/correct me, I am trying to understanding the grafting in process with respect to timeframes. If I missed the bus completely in my understanding of this please help.

ewq1938
Feb 8th 2016, 04:13 AM
Yeah, this is an example of a hard saying that many fear to preach/teach (or touch with a 10 foot pole for that matter). In other words, if this is true, Jews who claim to know God (The Father) but at the same time reject Jesus Christ, don't know Him as they claim to. I agree with this but the only thing that I would like clarification on is how does this work with respect to Romans 11, the fullness of the gentiles, Jews eyes being opened to Jesus being the Messiah etc? In other words, isn't there a time yet to come when many Jews will receive Jesus as Messiah, and how do the mechanics of that work with respect to timeframes?

Everyone will have their own view but Paul says there that blindness "in part" came until the fullness of the gentiles. So, there are other reasons for the blindness. Paul is clear if someone in unbelief, they will be saved...they are a Christian. If they are in unbelief, they are not a Christian and won't be saved.

I think most of one's blindness is in your heart. God will be able to search this out and those that are able to see and believe will have the opportunity, the others will remain blinded.

percho
Feb 8th 2016, 06:53 AM
Why did Jesus say they didn't?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.


John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.


Jesus isn't stating anything that was new:

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

The Jews stopped knowing God a long time ago but we should all pray that this changes and that all eventually find faith in Jesus the Messiah.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Heb 8:10-12

Methinks they will because in due time God will change them.

ewq1938
Feb 8th 2016, 07:11 AM
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Heb 8:10-12

Methinks they will because in due time God will change them.

And what of the millions/billions that lived and died rejecting Christ?

CadyandZoe
Feb 8th 2016, 01:09 PM
Yeah, this is an example of a hard saying that many fear to preach/teach (or touch with a 10 foot pole for that matter). In other words, if this is true, Jews who claim to know God (The Father) but at the same time reject Jesus Christ, don't know Him as they claim to. I agree with this but the only thing that I would like clarification on is how does this work with respect to Romans 11, the fullness of the gentiles, Jews eyes being opened to Jesus being the Messiah etc? In other words, isn't there a time yet to come when many Jews will receive Jesus as Messiah, and how do the mechanics of that work with respect to timeframes?

It's hard to articulate what I am asking, but my question would be those Jews who now pray to YHWH (while rejecting Jesus for now but will accept Him later), is it possible that they 'know' Him (Father) as much as they possibly can until the mechanics of the fullness of the gentiles is completed and a good majority of Jews receive Jesus as Messiah afterwards? If I am way off base please direct/correct me, I am trying to understanding the grafting in process with respect to timeframes. If I missed the bus completely in my understanding of this please help.

I don't think you missed the bus. Jewish believers and Gentile believers are both looking for the coming of the messiah -- the same messiah. Some of the Jewish believers are not convinced that Jesus ben Joseph is the messiah and they are looking for another based on the fact that Jesus didn't fulfill various prophecies concerning the coming messiah. Others, however, accept that Jesus is the messiah, not based on the fulfillment of prophecy but for other reasons.

One might study the scriptures looking for clues, hints, and signs of his coming. That's one way to anticipate his coming. Another person, however, might study the scriptures to learn as much as possible about the God we serve and by comparison between the character of the Father and the Son, conclude that Jesus is the son of God. Such folks might say, "Well, he doesn't match up with the prophecies the way I understand them but when I look at Jesus, I see the Father." The more Jews (and Gentiles for that matter) recognize the son by comparison to the Father, the more will come to faith in Jesus. I think.

ewq1938
Feb 8th 2016, 11:38 PM
I don't think you missed the bus. Jewish believers and Gentile believers are both looking for the coming of the messiah -- the same messiah. Some of the Jewish believers are not convinced that Jesus ben Joseph is the messiah and they are looking for another based on the fact that Jesus didn't fulfill various prophecies concerning the coming messiah. Others, however, accept that Jesus is the messiah, not based on the fulfillment of prophecy but for other reasons.

Jesus fulfilled all prophecies that were needed at the time he lived on Earth and any that are left will be fulfilled at another time.

CadyandZoe
Feb 8th 2016, 11:54 PM
Jesus fulfilled all prophecies that were needed at the time he lived on Earth and any that are left will be fulfilled at another time.

That's right. Amen

dan
Feb 9th 2016, 02:16 PM
Jesus tells his disciples to expect the Father to answer a prayer asked in Jesus' name. However, this is different than adding the phrase "in Jesus name" at the end of a prayer. To ask for something "in Jesus name" is to ask under the authority of Jesus. The Apostles were acting under the authority of Jesus. And unless Jesus specifically tells me personally that I am working for him, then I am not allowed or given permission to ask anything in his name.

So, you are not an Apostle Of Jesus?

You don't realize that, in the Soul Trade Of Evangelizing, you work for Jesus?

How does one become aware of one's employment by Jesus?

You have me curious.

CadyandZoe
Feb 9th 2016, 04:21 PM
So, you are not an Apostle Of Jesus?

You don't realize that, in the Soul Trade Of Evangelizing, you work for Jesus?

How does one become aware of one's employment by Jesus?

You have me curious.

If as an evangelist you would consider me an "apostle" of Jesus Christ, I have no problem with that. Even so, I would never present myself or consider myself to function in the same role and capacity of Peter, James, John, or Paul. To the degree that I have come to understand the teachings of Jesus and these men, and to the degree that I can explicate their teachings with fidelity to that degree I should be believed. But I am not a (capital A) Apostle. I have no direct experience or authority given to me from Jesus Christ. It is not my place to speak for him, write scripture, or give witness to what he said. I can not perform the signs of an Apostle, whereby the Holy Spirit gives credence to my authority. All I can do is relay what I have heard from these men.

Now, I have heard stories about those among our number who claim to have heard directly from Jesus Christ. He tells them, go to such and such a place and tell them such and such a message. And if true, such people are acting in the name of (under the authority of) Jesus Christ. And I'm not claiming this doesn't happen. I believe it does. Such people are situational apostles, whereby Jesus, under specific situations and circumstances, grants a particular believer the blessing of acting in his name to relay a message to someone. In THAT situation and under that circumstance, such a person is an apostle. (small a)

Just to be clear, the common practice among Christians is to add the phrase "in Jesus name" at the end of prayers. And I have no problem with that if the person is using a short-hand phrase to mean something like "if it be the will of God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Many of us do it; I do it at times. I see nothing wrong with it. Other times, and even in the Gospels, the phrase "in my name" indicates the believer's commitment to serve Jesus Christ. My meaning is to declare myself his follower.

In Mark 9 we read,
“Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”

Here, I think, to receive a child in Jesus' name isn't focused on his authority but on both his commitment to children and our wish to follow his lead in this regard. When I receive a child in Jesus name I am recognizing that Jesus treated children this way and as his follower I will also treat children the way he did. This is more in line with your point. To act in Jesus name doesn't always mean that we act under his authority. Sometimes it means that we act as Jesus has taught us to act.

I simply think we need to be clear about what to expect. Consider John 14

12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Here, I think, Jesus is speaking to the eleven remaining apostles, those who will truly act under his authority, that whatever they ask it will be granted. In other words, Jesus guarantees to these men that when they are praying under his authority, they have one hundred percent certainty of getting what they ask. They can ask for anything in his name.

All believers have a similar expectation, but only with regard to salvation. In his letter, John tells believers,

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have [l]before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.


It's important to bear in mind the proviso in verse 13. The point at issue is both eternal life and knowing that we have eternal life. With regard to THIS subject matter, John gives us a 100 percent guarantee that God will give us what we ask, whether we are asking for eternal life or we are asking the question about our current status. John wants us to know that if we need to know whether or not we have eternal life, we can ask God and he will give us what we seek. Guaranteed.

If our question centers on other people, the guarantee is limited. If our loved one or the person of our concern has committed a sin leading unto death, there is no expectation that God will grant that person eternal life. We are encouraged to pray for all people, and especially our loved ones, but John tells us not to expect a positive outcome for those who have committed a sin leading unto death. No guarantee for that one. So then, as believers we can't expect to receive everything we ask, but only such things that are according to God's will. And under this condition, God will grant us knowledge that we have eternal life -- every time and any time we ask. We can also pray for our loved ones with limited expectations, but no guarantee for those who have committed a sin unto death.

ewq1938
Feb 10th 2016, 02:49 AM
Jesus tells his disciples to expect the Father to answer a prayer asked in Jesus' name. However, this is different than adding the phrase "in Jesus name" at the end of a prayer. To ask for something "in Jesus name" is to ask under the authority of Jesus. The Apostles were acting under the authority of Jesus. And unless Jesus specifically tells me personally that I am working for him, then I am not allowed or given permission to ask anything in his name.

Any Christian can ask, pray, or do miracles in the name of Christ. You don't need any specific permission.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Trivalee
Feb 15th 2016, 12:42 AM
What if you're wrong?

No, you can't possibly entertain that idea. Why should I?

Of course, I have carefully considered my conviction and having experienced the Spirit of God in Jesus Christ, I am persuaded that Christianity is correct. (1 Tim 2:5)

Fenris
Feb 15th 2016, 12:49 AM
Of course, I have carefully considered my conviction and having experienced the Spirit of God in Jesus Christ, I am persuaded that Christianity is correct. (1 Tim 2:5)


Yes, I am sure you have. And so have I. So has every person of faith, presumably.

Trivalee
Feb 15th 2016, 04:13 PM
Yes, I am sure you have. And so have I. So has every person of faith, presumably.

Indeed. On the day of judgement, we will know who is right.