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Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 11:08 AM
Why would you want to eat meat sacrificed to idols- Don't you know that it is rendering 'worship' to the same idols?

mailmandan
Feb 17th 2016, 11:43 AM
Acts 15:29 - that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 11:53 AM
Acts 15:29 - that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

So what should we do, become vegetarians? it is all over.

mailmandan
Feb 17th 2016, 11:55 AM
So what should we do, become vegetarians? it is all over. Not all meat is sacrificed to idols. ;)

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 12:02 PM
Not all meat is sacrificed to idols. ;)

Please explain further.

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 12:04 PM
How about kosher meat? Is that also sacrificed to idols?

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 17th 2016, 12:10 PM
1 Corinthians 8:4-9 King James Version

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

My thoughts: I don't eat meat whatsoever (bible says I am weak, lols - scriptural vegetarian humor) - with that being said, if I did eat meat, I would avoid meats that I knew were sacrificed unto idols when I could, but I would eat it if I was hungry and so long as it didn't cause my brother/sister to stumble. Just plead the blood of Jesus Christ over it in prayer, and Bob's your uncle.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 12:14 PM
How about kosher meat? Is that also sacrificed to idols?

I don't know much about kosher but i'm talking about meat or any food slaughtered/taken as part of worship of a 'deity'
Like halal for islam
or communion for christians

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 12:21 PM
1 Corinthians 8:4-9 King James Version

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

My thoughts: I don't eat meat whatsoever (bible says I am weak, lols - scriptural vegetarian humor) - with that being said, if I did eat meat, I would avoid meats that I knew were sacrificed unto idols when I could, but I would eat it if I was hungry and so long as it didn't cause my brother/sister to stumble. Just plead the blood of Jesus Christ over it in prayer, and Bob's your uncle.

1 Corinthian 10:14-20 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?


See Paul's conclusion, he says idols are not just idols (wood and stone that can not listen) but some are offered to satan/demons.

shepherdsword
Feb 17th 2016, 12:56 PM
I don't know much about kosher but i'm talking about meat or any food slaughtered/taken as part of worship of a 'deity'
Like halal for islam
or communion for christians

Are you suggesting that partaking in Christian communion is eating meat sacrificed to idols?

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 12:58 PM
Are you suggesting that partaking in Christian communion is eating meat sacrificed to idols?

No, i'm just giving an example of partaking food as worship. I think that partaking halal is worship.

jayne
Feb 17th 2016, 02:00 PM
For Muslims, halal is like kosher for Jews. It means "permissible".

Here are the ways for Muslims that meat is permissible: What is Halal Meat? (http://www.thekitchn.com/good-question-what-is-halal-me-60979)


Halal is an Arabic word that means "permissible." In terms of food, it means food that is permissible according to Islamic law. For a meat to be certified "halal," it cannot be a forbidden cut (such as meat from hindquarters) or animal (such as pork.)

The slaughter of a halal animal is called "zabihah" and there are certain guidelines to follow:

*Allah's name must be pronounced during slaughter.
*The instrument must be very sharp to ensure humane slaughter. The animal must be slit at the throat.
*The animal must not be unconscious
*The animal must be hung upside down and allowed to bleed dry. Eating blood is not halal.
*These steps must be accomplished by a Muslim or the People of the Book (Christian or Jew.) Many observant Muslims find kosher meat acceptable.
*The animal must have been fed a natural diet that did not contain animal by-products.

To me, it's a benign and neutral issue. Eat it or don't.

I would eat it unless I were with another believer who felt it sinful. Then, I would refrain.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 02:09 PM
For Muslims, halal is like kosher for Jews. It means "permissible".

Here are the ways for Muslims that meat is permissible: What is Halal Meat? (http://www.thekitchn.com/good-question-what-is-halal-me-60979)



To me, it's a benign and neutral issue. Eat it or don't.

I would eat it unless I were with another believer who felt it sinful. Then, I would refrain.

And who is allah and what authority does he have over food?

Eat not (O believers) of that meat on which Allah’s Name has not been pronounced (at the time of slaughter) for sure it is disobedience of Allah (a sinful conduct). And certainly, the Shayaatin (devils) do inspire their friends (from mankind) to dispute with you, and if you obey them [making al-Maytatah legal to eat (Maytatah - a dead animal or animal/bird slaughtered without taking the name of Allah during slaughter)], then you would indeed be a polytheists (doing shirk, ascribing partners to Allah) (6:121)


This is more than just permissible- it is worship

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 02:27 PM
This is more than just permissible- it is worship
Sounds like your mind is made up already.

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 02:29 PM
How about kosher meat? Is that also sacrificed to idols?

Hebrew National. Yummy

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 02:33 PM
And who is allah and what authority does he have over food?

Eat not (O believers) of that meat on which Allah’s Name has not been pronounced (at the time of slaughter) for sure it is disobedience of Allah (a sinful conduct). And certainly, the Shayaatin (devils) do inspire their friends (from mankind) to dispute with you, and if you obey them [making al-Maytatah legal to eat (Maytatah - a dead animal or animal/bird slaughtered without taking the name of Allah during slaughter)], then you would indeed be a polytheists (doing shirk, ascribing partners to Allah) (6:121)


This is more than just permissible- it is worship

Go hunting. Elk, Turkey, Pheasant, Venison....they're all good.

Or raise your own cow.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 02:46 PM
Go hunting. Elk, Turkey, Pheasant, Venison....they're all good.

Or raise your own cow.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::rofl:

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 02:52 PM
Hebrew National. Yummy

Sacrificed to pagan gods...... :o

jayne
Feb 17th 2016, 03:44 PM
And who is allah and what authority does he have over food? This is more than just permissible- it is worship

What authority does Allah have over food? None. He doesn't exist. He is a figment of the imagination of millions of people.

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 03:48 PM
Here are the ways for Muslims that meat is permissible:
Very similar to what is done in Judaism (no surprise, Mohammed learned about monotheism from Jews). Except in kosher slaughter, a blessing is made beforehand instead of the pronunciation of "Allah".

To the OP, is this idolatry too? Curious.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 03:56 PM
Very similar to what is done in Judaism (no surprise, Mohammed learned about monotheism from Jews). Except in kosher slaughter, a blessing is made beforehand instead of the pronunciation of "Allah".

To the OP, is this idolatry too? Curious.

1 Corinthian 10:14-20 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

From what Paul says here, to me it is a no go. If this is what is done on kosher, it's a no go too

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 04:03 PM
From what Paul says here, to me it is a no go. If this is what is done on kosher, it's a no go too

Maybe I should specify. The blessing before an animal is slaughtered is as follows:

Blessed are You, O Lord our God, King of the world, Who has sanctified us with His commandments, who has commanded us regarding slaughter.

Does this qualify as idolatry?

James_Roberts
Feb 17th 2016, 04:11 PM
How about kosher meat? Is that also sacrificed to idols?
In my career as a Mechanical Design Engineer, I was responsible for designing and installing a chemical wash for fresh killed chickens at a Tyson chicken processing plant. The Tyson people made sure they were following Kosher practices when processing meat, from calming the chickens to the draining of blood.

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 04:13 PM
The Tyson people made sure they were following Kosher practices when processing meat, from calming the chickens to the draining of blood.

That's so interesting. Things I have never known.

Stonesoffire
Feb 17th 2016, 04:24 PM
Those who worshipped other spirits and then became Christians might think that meat sacrificed to an idol has some kind of power.

I won't eat halal. Not because I think the meat has any power, but because of what is represented.

It's packaged so all knows.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 04:39 PM
Maybe I should specify. The blessing before an animal is slaughtered is as follows:

Blessed are You, O Lord our God, King of the world, Who has sanctified us with His commandments, who has commanded us regarding slaughter.

Does this qualify as idolatry?

There in lies the problem, which god is this? in the old covenant it would've worked well because God interacted with men through prophets and priests but that tradition was destroyed and a new one raised in 3 days. And now God stays quiet until the end because He has already spoken through His son

Heb 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

For food, we can give thanks all day but not giving thanks because we worship, if we do that in the new dispensation (where worshiping is in spirit and truth) then kosher becomes idol worshiping.

James_Roberts
Feb 17th 2016, 05:27 PM
That's so interesting. Things I have never known.
Wendy's, Chick-Fil-A, McDonald's and others got their chicken from Tyson when I installed a system for killing off e. Coli and salmonella from fresh killed chickens. No anti-biotics where used or needed, and it did not affect taste.

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 05:52 PM
Sacrificed to pagan gods...... :o

Oh great, that's two strikes. First my abacus, now this.....

I need an ACTS 10:9-20 moment!!

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 05:56 PM
Very similar to what is done in Judaism (no surprise, Mohammed learned about monotheism from Jews). Except in kosher slaughter, a blessing is made beforehand instead of the pronunciation of "Allah".

To the OP, is this idolatry too? Curious.

We Baptists bless our food also.....oh man, that's three strikes.....

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 05:57 PM
In my career as a Mechanical Design Engineer, I was responsible for designing and installing a chemical wash for fresh killed chickens at a Tyson chicken processing plant. The Tyson people made sure they were following Kosher practices when processing meat, from calming the chickens to the draining of blood.

Amen. :) .

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 05:59 PM
There in lies the problem, which god is this? in the old covenant it would've worked well because God interacted with men through prophets and priests but that tradition was destroyed and a new one raised in 3 days. And now God stays quiet until the end because He has already spoken through His son

Heb 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

For food, we can give thanks all day but not giving thanks because we worship, if we do that in the new dispensation (where worshiping is in spirit and truth) then kosher becomes idol worshiping.

Maybe you should confine yourself to eating spiritual meat?

Stonesoffire
Feb 17th 2016, 05:59 PM
No where to run....no where to hide..

:(

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 06:00 PM
No where to run....no where to hide..

:(

LOL!

Fear alert, fear alert. Whenever someone preaches fear, raise up a big red flag.

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 06:06 PM
There in lies the problem, which god is this? in the old covenant it would've worked well because God interacted with men through prophets and priests but that tradition was destroyed and a new one raised in 3 days. And now God stays quiet until the end because He has already spoken through His son

Heb 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

For food, we can give thanks all day but not giving thanks because we worship, if we do that in the new dispensation (where worshiping is in spirit and truth) then kosher becomes idol worshiping.

So you are saying YHWH is a different God than Jesus?

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 06:19 PM
We Baptists bless our food also.....oh man, that's three strikes.....

Doomed. You're doomed.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 06:43 PM
So you are saying YHWH is a different God than Jesus?

Jesus is everything that comes from YHWH, what do you think?

Is kosher part of worship? if yes then it is part of worshiping idols because God through Jesus has not commanded us to follow this kind of rituals in the new dispensation.
In the old covenant God commanded and demanded obedience but nowadays,it is obedience through faith in Jesus- period. no more rituals- if you hold on to ritualistic worship then who are you worshiping?

Let me turn the question around, if i don't do kosher, i'm i disobeying YHWH? why hasn't He judged the people for disobeying like He used to do?
Whatever your answer is, the opposite is what i'm saying.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 06:45 PM
So you are saying YHWH is a different God than Jesus?

Jesus is everything that comes from YHWH, what do you think?

Is kosher part of worship? if yes then it is part of worshiping idols because God through Jesus has not commanded us to follow this kind of rituals in the new dispensation.
In the old covenant God commanded and demanded obedience but nowadays,it is obedience through faith in Jesus- period. no more rituals- if you hold on to ritualistic worship then who are you worshiping?

Let me turn the question around, if i don't do kosher, i'm i disobeying YHWH? why hasn't He judged the people for disobeying like He used to do?
Whatever your answer is, the opposite is what i'm saying.

BrianW
Feb 17th 2016, 06:49 PM
All I have to say is

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/257975-eating-Halal-okay-to-you-How-about-Kosher-%28Subway-hate-it-or-love-it%29


Paul didn't seem to have a problem with it. We should be sensitive others who do though.

Basically, just because a Muslim stands before a bunch of meat and prays to "Allah" doesn't change the fact that it's good healthy meat. Prayers to " Allah" have no effect. Only the One True God is real and only prayers to Him have any merit.

So to answer the question: No, I wouldn't have a problem eating it. I wouldn't grill up a bunch of steaks and serve them to someone who -does- have a problem with it though just out of common courtesy and because to do so would be a sin.


1 Corinthians 8

8 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 07:00 PM
All I have to say is

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/257975-eating-Halal-okay-to-you-How-about-Kosher-%28Subway-hate-it-or-love-it%29

You forgot another one;

1 Corinthian 10:14-20 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 07:05 PM
Let me turn the question around, if i don't do kosher, i'm i disobeying YHWH?
No. Because you're a gentile and not obligated to keep kosher.

keck553
Feb 17th 2016, 07:10 PM
Jesus is everything that comes from YHWH, what do you think?

Is kosher part of worship? if yes then it is part of worshiping idols because God through Jesus has not commanded us to follow this kind of rituals in the new dispensation.
In the old covenant God commanded and demanded obedience but nowadays,it is obedience through faith in Jesus- period. no more rituals- if you hold on to ritualistic worship then who are you worshiping?

Let me turn the question around, if i don't do kosher, i'm i disobeying YHWH? why hasn't He judged the people for disobeying like He used to do?
Whatever your answer is, the opposite is what i'm saying.

Did Moses worship God in truth and in Spirit?

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 07:12 PM
No. Because you're a gentile and not obligated to keep kosher.

What about the jews who don't do kosher today, has a prophet been sent to warn like in the old?

All i'm trying to say the kind of worship we offer today is by faith through Jesus until the times of the gentiles are over. There's no jew or gentile but the body of christ anything apart from this is idol worship.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 07:15 PM
Did Moses worship God in truth and in Spirit?

Law, Moses obeyed God by obeying God's law.
Jesus fulfilled the law, so we can also fulfill the law by faith in Him. Jesus never demanded a ritualistic slaughter in honor of God, if you are doing it now, who are you worshiping?

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 07:18 PM
What about the jews who don't do kosher today, has a prophet been sent to warn like in the old?There are no more prophets.


All i'm trying to say the kind of worship we offer today is by faith through Jesus until the times of the gentiles are over.
I don't think I would categorize following God's orders as "worship". Sacrifice was worship. Not killing? Not stealing? Eating only what God told us to? Not worship.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 07:20 PM
Did Moses worship God in truth and in Spirit?

John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

I don;t think this verse applies to Moses

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 07:27 PM
There are no more prophets.


I don't think I would categorize following God's orders as "worship". Sacrifice was worship. Not killing? Not stealing? Eating only what God told us to? Not worship.

I would categorize obedience to God as worship (i leave it for another discussion)

Nowadays many Jews don't obey most of the orders given by God and yet for 2000 years God has not punished them, what do you think happened to God?
Could it be that the new covenant is real even for the jews?

chad
Feb 17th 2016, 07:29 PM
Well imo, you have to be able to distinguish between just ordinary meat that you can eat and meat offered to idols.

Eating meat which has not been sacrificed to idols is perfectly ok.

Meat prepared for the specific purpose of sacrificing to a pagan idol - with the intent of participating in the worship of that God is Idolatry. The bible warns Christians not to do that. Why would a Christian, a follower of Jesus want to participate in eating foods sacrificed to demons?


(Rev 2:14 NIV) Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.

(Rev 2:15 NIV) Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.



(Rev 2:20 NIV) Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

(Rev 2:21 NIV) I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.

(Rev 2:22 NIV) So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.


You have to be able to distinguish between the two.

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 07:30 PM
I would categorize obedience to God as worship (i leave it for another discussion)I wouldn't.


Nowadays many Jews don't obey most of the orders given by God and yet for 2000 years God has not punished them, what do you think happened to God?
Could it be that the new covenant is real even for the jews?
Most Jews don't believe in Jesus. Wouldn't that be the same thing as not following the law? Why isn't God punishing them for that?

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 07:32 PM
Well imo, you have to be able to distinguish between just ordinary meat that you can eat and meat offered to idols.

Eating meat which has not been sacrificed to idols is perfectly ok.

Meat prepared for the specific purpose of sacrificing to a pagan idol - with the intent of participating in the worship of that God is Idolatry.
This is a good point. Jewish law makes the distinction as well. One may not derive benefit from any object sanctified to an idol

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 07:38 PM
I wouldn't.

Most Jews don't believe in Jesus. Wouldn't that be the same thing as not following the law? Why isn't God punishing them for that?

I'm talking about the law of Moses.
Many Jews don;t follow the law why hasn;t YHWH punished them for the last 2000 years

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 07:45 PM
I'm talking about the law of Moses.
Many Jews don;t follow the law why hasn;t YHWH punished them for the last 2000 years

Well, let's see. We have the crusades, the inquisition, pogroms, Chmielnicki massacres, the Holocaust...

I'd say the Jews still have a special place in God's plans.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 07:54 PM
Well, let's see. We have the crusades, the inquisition, pogroms, Chmielnicki massacres, the Holocaust...

I'd say the Jews still have a special place in God's plans.

They do have a special place in God's plan
I would not say the crusades, the inquisition, pogroms, Chmielnicki massacres, the Holocaust happened because the Jews were not following the law- one can also say it happened because they rejected Jesus- It happened because of hatred towards the Jews same as 911 in America, otherwise God would have warned them prior to these events.
The only warning we have is from Jesus

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 07:56 PM
They do have a special place in God's plan
I would not say the crusades, the inquisition, pogroms, Chmielnicki massacres, the Holocaust happened because the Jews were not following the law- one can also say it happened because they rejected Jesus- It happened because of hatred towards the Jews

Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 08:02 PM
Most Jews don't believe in Jesus. Wouldn't that be the same thing as not following the law? Why isn't God punishing them for that?

Because this is the time of grace until the times of the gentiles is over.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 08:04 PM
Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?


911 came, God did it., is it because they never kept the law of Moses?

Peaceful cities all over the world, is it because they kept the law?

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 08:07 PM
911 came, God did it.,
Yes, He did. For reasons that are His and not ours to understand "My ways are not your ways". Not every disaster is a punishment for sin.

Moose
Feb 17th 2016, 08:18 PM
Not every disaster is a punishment for sin.

Then we shouldn't have brought this in our discussion. We have wandered far off the topic, to bring us back, i'm still of the opinion that if kosher is worship like halal is then it is idol worship. God now has spoken to us through Jesus (no more prophets), i will follow what Jesus says

Fenris
Feb 17th 2016, 08:37 PM
i'm still of the opinion that if kosher is worship like halal is then it is idol worship.

I don't think that fits the definition of "worship", but you're entitled to you opinion.

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 04:04 AM
Law, Moses obeyed God by obeying God's law.
Jesus fulfilled the law, so we can also fulfill the law by faith in Him. Jesus never demanded a ritualistic slaughter in honor of God, if you are doing it now, who are you worshiping?

I suggest you do a deep study of korban. It is anything but ritualistic.

Is murder still against God's law?

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 04:06 AM
John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

I don;t think this verse applies to Moses

So then Moses worshipped an idol?

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 04:10 AM
Then we shouldn't have brought this in our discussion. We have wandered far off the topic, to bring us back, i'm still of the opinion that if kosher is worship like halal is then it is idol worship. God now has spoken to us through Jesus (no more prophets), i will follow what Jesus says

Where did Jesus say not to eat kosher because it is idol worship?

Did Paul commit idol worship when he brought a sacrifice to the Temple? (Acts 21)?

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 04:10 AM
I don't think that fits the definition of "worship", but you're entitled to you opinion.

Worship or no worship, people in this end times are justified by faith on the foundation of the gospel, even the Jews- that's the suggestion as per Revelation.
The temple that Jesus made in 3 days consists of:
the foundation of the apostles(Jews)
the walls and pillars of the 144k Jews redeemed from the earth in the end time (they sit on the foundation of the gospel not law)
12 gates (for each of the 12 tribes of israel)

Rev 3:7-11 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.


Rev 7:3-8 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Rev 14:1-3 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.



Rev 21:9-17 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadiac in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick.


I don't see anything to suggest that the Jews in the end times are justified by the law.

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 04:58 AM
Where did Jesus say not to eat kosher because it is idol worship?

Did Paul commit idol worship when he brought a sacrifice to the Temple? (Acts 21)?

Where did Jesus say eat kosher for my honor?

Here is what Paul says:

1 Cor 10:14-22 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Any food worship that is not in the honor of Jesus is idol worship.

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 03:03 PM
Where did Jesus say eat kosher for my honor?

Here is what Paul says:

1 Cor 10:14-22 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Any food worship that is not in the honor of Jesus is idol worship.

You said you follow what Jesus said, not Paul. So now you are expanding. That's fine, but if you say you stick to the red letters, I take that as specific. So I ask again, did Paul commit idol worship when he laid a sacrifice at the Temple in Acts? Were the early Christian Jews in Jerusalem committing idol worship when the met daily at the Temple?

And no, Jesus did not eat unclean foods. If He did, He would have sinned against His father.

Again the fulfillment of the law is a balance of justice and grace. Neither is mutually exclusive.

CadyandZoe
Feb 18th 2016, 03:41 PM
We buy meat from the grocery store. Usually the meat is packaged in plastic or we can order meat over the counter from the meat monger. And when we buy meat we don't ask whether it's kosher, or halal, or offered to an idol. We don't ask because it doesn't matter to us. We follow Paul's rule, who said that we are allowed to eat any kind of food over which we give thanks.

Having said all that, suppose the meat monger is selling halal meat that day. If so, we will not buy halal meat. Why? Not for our sake but for his sake we will not buy the meat. We don't believe that Allah actually exists, but he might. And if we buy the meat we run the risk of supporting him in his delusion. We would just go to another store that day.

We have liberty to practice what we believe and eat any meat that is healthy. But if in our liberty we send the wrong message to those who practice Islam, we will voluntarily avoid any kind of action that might be misconstrued as approval of Islam.

Would we eat kosher? Yes. Yahweh actually exists and if the meat monger was offering kosher meat, we would feel comfortable buying the meat because doing so would not be sending the wrong message. Obedience to God is a good message to support. As a Gentile am I obligated to eat kosher? No. But as one who loves God and loves what he loves, I am obligated to recognize and support others who love God and want to serve him.

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 03:53 PM
You said you follow what Jesus said, not Paul. So now you are expanding. That's fine, but if you say you stick to the red letters, I take that as specific. So I ask again, did Paul commit idol worship when he laid a sacrifice at the Temple in Acts? Were the early Christian Jews in Jerusalem committing idol worship when the met daily at the Temple?

And no, Jesus did not eat unclean foods. If He did, He would have sinned against His father.

Again the fulfillment of the law is a balance of justice and grace. Neither is mutually exclusive.

Acts 21:21-24 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.


From the above, Paul did not go to worship at the temple especially after teaching other Jews to turn away from the law.
Doing kosher for worship is still a no go- i insist.

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 04:08 PM
We buy meat from the grocery store. Usually the meat is packaged in plastic or we can order meat over the counter from the meat monger. And when we buy meat we don't ask whether it's kosher, or halal, or offered to an idol. We don't ask because it doesn't matter to us. We follow Paul's rule, who said that we are allowed to eat any kind of food over which we give thanks.

Having said all that, suppose the meat monger is selling halal meat that day. If so, we will not buy halal meat. Why? Not for our sake but for his sake we will not buy the meat. We don't believe that Allah actually exists, but he might. And if we buy the meat we run the risk of supporting him in his delusion. We would just go to another store that day.

We have liberty to practice what we believe and eat any meat that is healthy. But if in our liberty we send the wrong message to those who practice Islam, we will voluntarily avoid any kind of action that might be misconstrued as approval of Islam.

Would we eat kosher? Yes. Yahweh actually exists and if the meat monger was offering kosher meat, we would feel comfortable buying the meat because doing so would not be sending the wrong message. Obedience to God is a good message to support. As a Gentile am I obligated to eat kosher? No. But as one who loves God and loves what he loves, I am obligated to recognize and support others who love God and want to serve him.

1 Cor 9:21 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Why does Paul have to win those under the law if they are obedient?

I know why, see underlined

Gal 2:11-17 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

Fenris
Feb 18th 2016, 04:26 PM
You said you follow what Jesus said, not Paul.
It is interesting how when people want to show that the law is defunct, they go to Paul.

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 04:52 PM
The problem with keeping the law is if you break one you are guilty of all and if you keep all you are still a sinner because "all flesh has sinned"
Even the Jews who kept the law long ago are justified by the blood of Jesus because His sacrifice is timeless- it is from before the foundation of the world. The law was actually practiced in preparation of the coming messiah- sin remission through sacrifices was in preparation of the final/worthy sacrifice of Jesus, so whoever obeyed was ultimately justified by the blood of Jesus.
But in these last days (figuratively 3.5 years), satan has taken his seat in the temple of God showing himself as if he is God and God works within believers hearts so that all things can be accomplished through faith in Jesus. It is safe to say that no rituals or law keeping reaches God but satan- no kosher, no halal

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 04:56 PM
It is interesting how when people want to show that the law is defunct, they go to Paul.

Clever men, really clever.

I only said i follow Jesus, does that mean i don't follow what Paul says?
After all, Paul and the rest follow Jesus.

Fenris
Feb 18th 2016, 05:05 PM
The problem with keeping the law is if you break one you are guilty of all

This is a Christian belief.


Clever men, really clever.:thumbsup:


I only said i follow JesusBut you're quoting Paul.

CadyandZoe
Feb 18th 2016, 05:44 PM
1 Cor 9:21 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Why does Paul have to win those under the law if they are obedient?

I know why, see underlined

Gal 2:11-17 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

We shouldn't think that Paul's project was to convince the Jews to stop being Jewish. His project was to convince Jews that Jesus is the Christ, the coming one, the one predicted by the prophets. The reason why Paul chose to live like a Jew among Jewish people is to avoid any offense that might close down discussion.

As a side comment, I note that Paul never said he would become Hindu, or Buddhist, or Muslim in order win over such people. God commanded Jews to be Jewish and they are right to obey him. As such, Paul the Jew was comfortable and not embarrassed to practice his Judaism under certain circumstances. One might question whether Paul was being hypocritical in his practice. One needs to understand, however, that the essential significance of the ritual practice of Judaism is the keeping of the Mt. Sinai covenant. If the covenant was already broken during Paul's time, then he was free to not practice while in fellowship among those who do not practice the law.

With regard to Galatians, the bottom line in that book was the false gospel of "exclusion". Just as Paul was free to have fellowship with Gentiles and eat with them; Peter was also free to do the same thing. And in fact, Peter did feel free to eat with the Gentiles and suspend his Judaism during those times of fellowship. Paul's charge of hypocrisy centered on Peter's reaction to some men who were purported to have come from James, teaching that Gentiles needed to be Jewish in order to be considered as being among the people of God. Peter already learned, in a dream, that if God wanted to declare the Gentiles to be kosher, then what objection could Peter have? He knew God's mind and he agreed with it. But Peter, during a moment of weakness, acted as if what he knew to be true wasn't true.

So then, in my view, any Jew who is seeking to obey God, love God, honor God, fears God, and wishes to express that righteous sentiment through ritual practice, I am willing to support. And my prayer for such a one is that God the father will lead such a person to the true identity of the messiah.

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 06:23 PM
We shouldn't think that Paul's project was to convince the Jews to stop being Jewish. His project was to convince Jews that Jesus is the Christ, the coming one, the one predicted by the prophets. The reason why Paul chose to live like a Jew among Jewish people is to avoid any offense that might close down discussion.

Trump does not need to become a democrat to tell democrats how he feels about Hilary, he is doing fine where he is.
Likewise, if what you are saying is true, Paul needed not have become a christian so that he can tell Jews that Jesus is the christ, he should've just remained in Judaism, i'm sure they would've listened.

Stonesoffire
Feb 18th 2016, 06:54 PM
Paul would be in disobedience then.


At least we know for sure these are the latter times Timothy spoke of.

CadyandZoe
Feb 18th 2016, 08:31 PM
Trump does not need to become a democrat to tell democrats how he feels about Hilary, he is doing fine where he is.
Likewise, if what you are saying is true, Paul needed not have become a christian so that he can tell Jews that Jesus is the christ, he should've just remained in Judaism, i'm sure they would've listened.

I think you misunderstood what Paul was saying. He wasn't saying that he became a Jew in order to speak to Jews; he didn't say he became a Christian in order to speak to Christians. He is talking about ethnic customs.

Suppose our group wanted to invite a Jewish rabbi to speak in front of our group concerning his opinions about how the NT authors use the OT. We would not expect him to travel on a Sabbath; we would not hold our meeting on a Sabbath; we would not invite him over for a roast pig dinner, and etc. If we want to hear from a Jewish rabbi, we would make every effort to accommodate him in his Jewish practices. Why? So as to not allow our careless disregard for his ethnic practices to undermine our ultimate goal.

One thing to bear in mind. In Paul's day the term "Christian" simply referred to those who became followers of Jesus Christ. (Some even argue that it was a term of derision which the Christians were happy to call themselves.) For the past 2,000 years Christians have adopted practices and rituals of their own, not authorized by Jesus, and have affirmed doctrines and teachings which the apostles and Jesus would find foreign to their teaching. Today, in modern times, to be a Christian is to live with a highly sophisticated and developed set of ritual and ethic practices that are unique to Christianity. Some practices and teachings are unique to Catholicism while other practices and beliefs are unique to Protestantism. But if you were to ask a Jew why he or she is not a Christian, the answer you will most likely hear is, "I am a Jew."

Why this answer? The question assumes a comparison or contrast between two sets of cultural and/or ethnic practices. Given the current state of Christianity, I would be so bold to say that neither Christ, nor his disciples, nor his apostles, nor Paul would label themselves as "Christian". I mean, if by "Christian" we mean, "a follower of Christ", then of course Peter, Paul, John and the others would gladly accept the label for themselves. But if they lived today, I doubt anyone of them would accept the label.

For this reason, I am very shy about imposing my particular Christian culture on a Jew, and I would never suggest that since a Jew wasn't performing the practices that mark someone as "Christian" he wasn't a lover of God or even a child of God. Only God himself can see into the heart of a person. And I am happy to leave it in his hands.

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 08:52 PM
We buy meat from the grocery store. Usually the meat is packaged in plastic or we can order meat over the counter from the meat monger. And when we buy meat we don't ask whether it's kosher, or halal, or offered to an idol. We don't ask because it doesn't matter to us. We follow Paul's rule, who said that we are allowed to eat any kind of food over which we give thanks.

Having said all that, suppose the meat monger is selling halal meat that day. If so, we will not buy halal meat. Why? Not for our sake but for his sake we will not buy the meat. We don't believe that Allah actually exists, but he might. And if we buy the meat we run the risk of supporting him in his delusion. We would just go to another store that day.

We have liberty to practice what we believe and eat any meat that is healthy. But if in our liberty we send the wrong message to those who practice Islam, we will voluntarily avoid any kind of action that might be misconstrued as approval of Islam.

Would we eat kosher? Yes. Yahweh actually exists and if the meat monger was offering kosher meat, we would feel comfortable buying the meat because doing so would not be sending the wrong message. Obedience to God is a good message to support. As a Gentile am I obligated to eat kosher? No. But as one who loves God and loves what he loves, I am obligated to recognize and support others who love God and want to serve him.

Well since you bless your food before you eat it, you're giving praise to God for your sustenance, wouldn't that make it "Christian clean?"

CadyandZoe
Feb 18th 2016, 08:54 PM
Well since you bless your food before you eat it, you're giving praise to God for your sustenance, wouldn't that make it "Christian clean?"

I think the Jews do the same thing. Don't they?

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 08:54 PM
Acts 21:21-24 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.


From the above, Paul did not go to worship at the temple especially after teaching other Jews to turn away from the law.
Doing kosher for worship is still a no go- i insist.

During the last supper, Jesus broke UNLEAVENED KOSHER BREAD before His disciples and praised God, then offered it to them saying, "this is My Body......"

And yes, Paul sacrificed an animal at the Temple. Yep, he did. All the early Christians continued to worship at the Temple until they were told to deny Jesus to enter (the infamous 12th paragraph Gameliel II directed to be inserted into the Amidah), at which time they stopped.

Even in Hebrews it states specifically that the Levitical order is FADING away (Hebrews 8:13), which it did by 70 AD. But the High Priestly Order of Jesus pre-dated the Levite order, it's not something that just dismantled God the Father's directive and replaced it with another God. Same God all along. Superior doesn't mean the inferior is bad, after all GOD instituted it. Does God institute idol worship? Is the first commandment idol worship? Love your neighbor? Is that idol worship? All obedience to God is worship. God says that, not me.

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."


I eat a lot of food that is stamped kosher because it is HEALTHY for human consumption because Jews don't eat garbage. I also bless my food and give Jesus thanks for my sustenance. So you can insist on whatever ritual you have an issue with until the cows come home, but my obedience is to Jesus.

Fenris
Feb 18th 2016, 09:15 PM
I think the Jews do the same thing. Don't they?

We bless God for giving us the food.

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 09:18 PM
We bless God for giving us the food.

I thank God for both Israeli and Arab crusine. It's quite delicious.

Fenris
Feb 18th 2016, 09:24 PM
I thank God for both Israeli and Arab crusine. It's quite delicious.

Yeah there's this Israeli restaurant near me. Expensive but so so tasty... :pp

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 09:32 PM
Yeah there's this Israeli restaurant near me. Expensive but so so tasty... :pp

Well yeah, good ingredients are expensive. Our deli used to sell a 16 oz Pastrami sandwich called "The Abraham." We used a very high priced unsliced pastrami (not corned beef) and it was not inexpensive. But very popular. My doctor used to come in and have one once a week.

We also sold Lox and bagels. Very popular. :)

We also prayed every day after prep that our food and service would bless our customers. I hope that wasn't idol worship.....:eek:

Fenris
Feb 18th 2016, 09:54 PM
Well yeah, good ingredients are expensive. Our deli used to sell a 16 oz Pastrami sandwich called "The Abraham." We used a very high priced unsliced pastrami (not corned beef) and it was not inexpensive. But very popular. My doctor used to come in and have one once a week.

We also sold Lox and bagels. Very popular. :)Yummmm and it's going to be a while until I'm home for dinner.


We also prayed every day after prep that our food and service would bless our customers. I hope that wasn't idol worship.....:eek:
Doomed. DOOMED!

Stonesoffire
Feb 19th 2016, 12:14 AM
I always thought lox and bagels sounded good until I found out what lox meant.

*shudder*

Moose
Feb 19th 2016, 04:18 AM
I think you misunderstood what Paul was saying. He wasn't saying that he became a Jew in order to speak to Jews; he didn't say he became a Christian in order to speak to Christians. He is talking about ethnic customs.

You misunderstood me, Paul was from a different faith before becoming a follower of christ, if his original faith was just 'fine', why did Paul cross over?

keck553
Feb 19th 2016, 04:25 AM
I think the Jews do the same thing. Don't they?

Yes, i think some pray after the meal


I always thought lox and bagels sounded good until I found out what lox meant.

*shudder*

Here in the Northwest, we like our salmon red

Stonesoffire
Feb 19th 2016, 05:05 AM
I pictured a whipped cream dessert. I'm Pa Dutch. A lot different food than my Jewish husband.

But, we compensate for each other..lol

Moose
Feb 19th 2016, 08:00 AM
During the last supper, Jesus broke UNLEAVENED KOSHER BREAD before His disciples and praised God, then offered it to them saying, "this is My Body......"

The sacrifice was not yet complete....

Mat 27:50-51And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

That's when the sacrifice was done.


And yes, Paul sacrificed an animal at the Temple. Yep, he did. All the early Christians continued to worship at the Temple until they were told to deny Jesus to enter (the infamous 12th paragraph Gameliel II directed to be inserted into the Amidah), at which time they stopped.

Even in Hebrews it states specifically that the Levitical order is FADING away (Hebrews 8:13), which it did by 70 AD. But the High Priestly Order of Jesus pre-dated the Levite order, it's not something that just dismantled God the Father's directive and replaced it with another God. Same God all along. Superior doesn't mean the inferior is bad, after all GOD instituted it. Does God institute idol worship? Is the first commandment idol worship? Love your neighbor? Is that idol worship? All obedience to God is worship. God says that, not me.

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."


I eat a lot of food that is stamped kosher because it is HEALTHY for human consumption because Jews don't eat garbage. I also bless my food and give Jesus thanks for my sustenance. So you can insist on whatever ritual you have an issue with until the cows come home, but my obedience is to Jesus.

Rev 13: 8-10 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.b

9Whoever has ears, let them hear.

10“If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

ALL that are saved by the lamb who was slain NOT all who abide by the law- it really requires patience and wisdom.

Moose
Feb 19th 2016, 08:21 AM
Yummmm and it's going to be a while until I'm home for dinner.

The only meat i take nowadays is pork because i realize it is the only thing idols fear plus it is also yummmmmy.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 19th 2016, 08:45 AM
There are good arguments (backed by scripture) that unclean meats (pork for example) are in fact still designated as such. Peter's vision was about men, not about food. The foods mentioned about being sacrificed to idols also had nothing to do with the scriptures now deeming previously designated unclean meats to now be clean, etc. I don't eat meat either way, but I've heard the argument presented along with the scriptures and it is certainly worth consideration. I have no horse in the race, being a vegetarian. But it certainly was interesting to take a fresh look at the scriptures regarding this topic, because I had always been taught that all unclean meats are now clean so long as you pray over them in Jesus name, etc.

Here is a link to such a presentation/argument, which in this case is by Dr. William Schnoebelen, a Messianic Jew who is no ignoramus/dummy etc. Worth listening to and testing by the scriptures, for sure.

https://soundcloud.com/omegamanradio/episode-3014-put-a-fork-in-the-pork-william-schnoebelen

shepherdsword
Feb 19th 2016, 09:06 AM
There are good arguments (backed by scripture) that unclean meats (pork for example) are in fact still designated as such. Peter's vision was about men, not about food. The foods mentioned about being sacrificed to idols also had nothing to do with the scriptures now deeming previously designated unclean meats to now be clean, etc. I don't eat meat either way, but I've heard the argument presented along with the scriptures and it is certainly worth consideration.

Here is a link to such a presentation/argument, which in this case is by Dr. William Schnoebelen, a Messianic Jew who is no ignoramus/dummy etc. Worth listening to and testing by the scriptures, for sure.

https://soundcloud.com/omegamanradio/episode-3014-put-a-fork-in-the-pork-william-schnoebelen

This kind of stuff comes from the Judaizers. All things are lawful to eat if they are received with thanksgiving. This is backed in both the Old and New testaments.

To Noah:
Ge 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

The law was placed on the Jews because of transgression. It was an intermission until Christ came,who fulfilled it. Once that was done we see the dietary laws reverting to the one given to Noah.
In fact we are told that they with try to lay the yoke of dietary restriction on us are preaching the doctrine of devils:

1 Ti 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now if the issue is about eating healthy,such as avoiding pork.I don't see a problem.

1 Co 6:12-13 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

So we see that all things are lawful to eat but not necessarily the best(gr "sumphero") So while it's ok to preach abstaining from certain foods for health reasons it is dangerous to preach such abstaining as a doctrinal requirement.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 19th 2016, 09:18 AM
Amen, shepherdsword. Well said. Although I know for a fact that Bill isn't a Judaizer, nor does he promote doctrines of demons etc. He does stress above anything the health concerns over doctrines when discussing the unclean meats and such.

Moose
Feb 19th 2016, 10:37 AM
This kind of stuff comes from the Judaizers. All things are lawful to eat if they are received with thanksgiving. This is backed in both the Old and New testaments.

To Noah:
Ge 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

The law was placed on the Jews because of transgression. It was an intermission until Christ came,who fulfilled it. Once that was done we see the dietary laws reverting to the one given to Noah.
In fact we are told that they with try to lay the yoke of dietary restriction on us are preaching the doctrine of devils:

1 Ti 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now if the issue is about eating healthy,such as avoiding pork.I don't see a problem.

1 Co 6:12-13 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

So we see that all things are lawful to eat but not necessarily the best(gr "sumphero") So while it's ok to preach abstaining from certain foods for health reasons it is dangerous to preach such abstaining as a doctrinal requirement.

Please explain 1 Cor 10:14-22 to me;

Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

keck553
Feb 19th 2016, 02:46 PM
The only meat i take nowadays is pork because i realize it is the only thing idols fear plus it is also yummmmmy.


I had some Hebrew National Franks yesterday. Am I going to hell?

keck553
Feb 19th 2016, 03:06 PM
Doomed. DOOMED!

But did it doom the three pastors and the Police Chaplin who came regularly and ate our food? The pastrami came from a kosher deli.....uh oh.....double jeopardy.

keck553
Feb 19th 2016, 03:10 PM
Amen, shepherdsword. Well said. Although I know for a fact that Bill isn't a Judaizer, nor does he promote doctrines of demons etc. He does stress above anything the health concerns over doctrines when discussing the unclean meats and such.

Yeah, I would say staying in good health to serve the Lord is a good motivator.

Unless we were under the Law of Moses, the food laws, or all clean laws for that matter never applied to us in e first place. We are not under that priesthood. I do not know why people keep mixing the two.....

Fenris
Feb 19th 2016, 05:15 PM
But did it doom the three pastors and the Police Chaplin who came regularly and ate our food? The pastrami came from a kosher deli.....uh oh.....double jeopardy.

I see my work is done here :wave:

wendy-p-marshall
Feb 19th 2016, 06:02 PM
But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself. (Daniel 1:8)

This page has some interesting information: http://www.propheticexplorer.com/has_your_food_been_sacrificed_to_idols.aspx

The word 'Halal' means permissible for Muslims. Halal labeled foods are from animals which have been ritualistically sacrificed to a demon god; they are slaughtered facing Mecca as the name of Allah is invoked. Meats labeled as such are just the same as those from the king’s table which the prophet Daniel refused to consume. As Daniel purposed in his heart not to eat things sacrificed to idols and we must do the same.

The New Testament teaches that all animals are good to eat as long as they are eaten giving thanks to God. (Just Make Sure it's the right God!!!)

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
(I Timothy 4:1-4)

Moose
Feb 19th 2016, 06:27 PM
But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself. (Daniel 1:8)

This page has some interesting information: http://www.propheticexplorer.com/has_your_food_been_sacrificed_to_idols.aspx

The word 'Halal' means permissible for Muslims. Halal labeled foods are from animals which have been ritualistically sacrificed to a demon god; they are slaughtered facing Mecca as the name of Allah is invoked. Meats labeled as such are just the same as those from the king’s table which the prophet Daniel refused to consume. As Daniel purposed in his heart not to eat things sacrificed to idols and we must do the same.

The New Testament teaches that all animals are good to eat as long as they are eaten giving thanks to God. (Just Make Sure it's the right God!!!)

Well said


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
(I Timothy 4:1-4)

God has made all animals lawful(clean) and should be received with thanks giving- Yes, but clean animals offered to demons are no longer clean (1 cor 10:14-21). Paul gives a good comparison of those that partake/share in breaking of bread (communion) as one body, therefore even those that partake of meat sacrificed to demons share in that worship.

If it happened in real life that a group of people told you to partake on meat that they offered as sacrifice to SATAN because they worship satan, would you take it just because everything has been made lawful? I bet you won't, sincerely.

keck553
Feb 19th 2016, 08:16 PM
God has made all animals lawful(clean) and should be received with thanks giving- Yes, but clean animals offered to demons are no longer clean (1 cor 10:14-21). Paul gives a good comparison of those that partake/share in breaking of bread (communion) as one body, therefore even those that partake of meat sacrificed to demons share in that worship.

If it happened in real life that a group of people told you to partake on meat that they offered as sacrifice to SATAN because they worship satan, would you take it just because everything has been made lawful? I bet you won't, sincerely.

You have taken the deep context of Paul's argument and turned it into a ritualistic legalism. The context of Paul's argument is found in Psalm 1 and Psalm 26, among others. It is not about eating meat, it is about having an intimate relationship with evil-doers. The "table" in this context is a manifestation of making peace with God's enemies and allowing them to infiltrate your life.

John 8:32
Feb 20th 2016, 11:22 PM
I had some Hebrew National Franks yesterday. Am I going to hell?

The ONLY hot dogs I eat.

John 8:32
Feb 20th 2016, 11:41 PM
I don't know much about kosher but i'm talking about meat or any food slaughtered/taken as part of worship of a 'deity'
Like halal for islam
or communion for christians

Interesting, you don't know what it is but are very willing to comment on it.

keck553
Feb 20th 2016, 11:42 PM
The ONLY hot dogs I eat.

Yeah, at least I know what is not in them

John 8:32
Feb 20th 2016, 11:44 PM
Yeah, at least I know what is not in them

Exactly my friend, they have clean meat in them, the circle U tells us that.

Moose
Feb 21st 2016, 03:54 AM
Interesting, you don't know what it is but are very willing to comment on it.

I'm always willing to talk about anything

Moose
Feb 21st 2016, 04:09 AM
You have taken the deep context of Paul's argument and turned it into a ritualistic legalism. The context of Paul's argument is found in Psalm 1 and Psalm 26, among others. It is not about eating meat, it is about having an intimate relationship with evil-doers. The "table" in this context is a manifestation of making peace with God's enemies and allowing them to infiltrate your life.

Pauls letter to the Corinthians was about idol worship and eating meat sacrificed to idols was at the heart of the letter.

Sitting in the company of evil doers is our calling so that you can evangelize to them. Jesus sat with sinners and compared Himself to a physician that has the company of sick people.
Being in the company of evil doers is like the command to love your God who you do not see by loving your neighbors (who you see) otherwise:

Luke 6:33 "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34"If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.

The whole world is a company of evil doers, where do you live? where do you work? isn't it a company of evil doers, even the church you go and even this forum is a company of evil doers- no where to run friend, no where.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 21st 2016, 04:42 AM
Pauls letter to the Corinthians was about idol worship and eating meat sacrificed to idols was at the heart of the letter.

Sitting in the company of evil doers is our calling so that you can evangelize to them. Jesus sat with sinners and compared Himself to a physician that has the company of sick people.
Being in the company of evil doers is like the command to love your God who you do not see by loving your neighbors (who you see) otherwise:

Luke 6:33 "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34"If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.

The whole world is a company of evil doers, where do you live? where do you work? isn't it a company of evil doers, even the church you go and even this forum is a company of evil doers- no where to run friend, no where.

I believe keck is referring to Rev 3:20 type supping/fellowship/agreement, not to be confused with what you're saying about being in the world but not of the world, etc. We can still sit at a table (say a cafeteria in a public place for example) and eat food with wicked sinners/God-haters and not be in trouble with the LORD. That's different however, than if we were to break the bread of fellowship with said God-haters, and to have intimate fellowship/agreement with them etc.

The table, and the food and the idols in said passages Paul wrote, are both physical and literal. There is a lower level meaning/application, but the higher spiritual meaning or application is couched in the physical ie: table/food meaning intimate supping/fellowship, foods sacrificed to idols/gods can be literal, sure, but the higher application carries well beyond food.

It could mean, don't go be in agreement and head over to a Marilyn Manson concert with some friends of yours, because you know Marilyn Manson worships Satan and promotes things that God hates, etc. Even if your friends don't outright worship Satan, and they may dress more modestly than the group as a whole, the point being that there are countless applications to this beyond foods like Kosher vs. Halal.

keck553
Feb 21st 2016, 03:16 PM
Pauls letter to the Corinthians was about idol worship and eating meat sacrificed to idols was at the heart of the letter.

Sitting in the company of evil doers is our calling so that you can evangelize to them. Jesus sat with sinners and compared Himself to a physician that has the company of sick people.
Being in the company of evil doers is like the command to love your God who you do not see by loving your neighbors (who you see) otherwise:

Luke 6:33 "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34"If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.

The whole world is a company of evil doers, where do you live? where do you work? isn't it a company of evil doers, even the church you go and even this forum is a company of evil doers- no where to run friend, no where.

It is very clear that Matthew wrote that it was the Pharisees that saw them as sinners. Those "sinners" Jesus sat with were sinners in the eyes of the Pharisees because they were poor and sick, and some were twx collectors. ALL of them were repentant. Jesus did not abide in iniquity. What did Jesus say to the adultress? STOP SINNING.

So no, Jesus did not sit with evildoers. In fact Jesus said a day will come when Christians in name only will come before the Lord and He will say "away from me, I do not know (this is the intimacy of dining together in that culture) you. So again, no Jesus didn't "sit" with unrepentant evildoers.

keck553
Feb 21st 2016, 03:19 PM
I believe keck is referring to Rev 3:20 type supping/fellowship/agreement, not to be confused with what you're saying about being in the world but not of the world, etc. We can still sit at a table (say a cafeteria in a public place for example) and eat food with wicked sinners/God-haters and not be in trouble with the LORD. That's different however, than if we were to break the bread of fellowship with said God-haters, and to have intimate fellowship/agreement with them etc.

The table, and the food and the idols in said passages Paul wrote, are both physical and literal. There is a lower level meaning/application, but the higher spiritual meaning or application is couched in the physical ie: table/food meaning intimate supping/fellowship, foods sacrificed to idols/gods can be literal, sure, but the higher application carries well beyond food.

It could mean, don't go be in agreement and head over to a Marilyn Manson concert with some friends of yours, because you know Marilyn Manson worships Satan and promotes things that God hates, etc. Even if your friends don't outright worship Satan, and they may dress more modestly than the group as a whole, the point being that there are countless applications to this beyond foods like Kosher vs. Halal.


Yes, that is the correct context. Thank you. :)

Moose
Feb 21st 2016, 04:04 PM
It is very clear that Matthew wrote that it was the Pharisees that saw them as sinners. Those "sinners" Jesus sat with were sinners in the eyes of the Pharisees because they were poor and sick, and some were twx collectors. ALL of them were repentant. Jesus did not abide in iniquity. What did Jesus say to the adultress? STOP SINNING.

So no, Jesus did not sit with evildoers. In fact Jesus said a day will come when Christians in name only will come before the Lord and He will say "away from me, I do not know (this is the intimacy of dining together in that culture) you. So again, no Jesus didn't "sit" with unrepentant evildoers.

The world is full of evil doers and the saints are handful and scattered - No escaping/ no isolating yourself but

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Ezra 10:11 Now honor the LORD, the God of your ancestors, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives."

The above does not physical separation but being strong to resist temptation, i can only imagine what some believers go through being raised in families where they are the only believers while the rest of the family members are lost e.g. A teenager believer raised by a single parent on drugs.

keck553
Feb 21st 2016, 08:35 PM
No one suggested isolation.

ewq1938
Feb 22nd 2016, 03:14 AM
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.



There is a huge difference that isn't being understood here. Many that ate meat sacrificed to idols did so because they believed the meat would be magically altered and thus more beneficial to their bodies ie: the meat was made special by the false god the idol represented. Those that knew there was no such thing as a real idol/god knew that all meat is simply meat and does not go through any such magical change so a Christian could eat this meat without disobeying the command not to eat meat sacrificed to an idol in the sense of thinking it was more special meat because it was somehow "blessed" by the false god the idol represented. The idol represented an imaginary god and those that truly believe the meat was made special clearly believe that false god is actually real. This was a big problem for those who were pagans and believe in this, then converted to Christianity but had one foot in both religions.

So, it was wrong for a Christian to eat meat sacrificed to an idol IF they believed the idol changed the meat to make it better somehow because this shows faith in this false idol/god.

But, it was NOT WRONG for a Christian to eat the same meat sacrificed to an idol as long as everyone present knew it was just meat and the idol/god was false and they did not eat it in honor of the idol/god but simply ate it because they had opportunity to eat it or were just hungry. This was not to be done in front of those that thought the meat was special because it would be wrong to in any way encourage that idea that the meat was more special after being sacrificed to an idol/god. Paul was teaching on a high level regarding these meats and there are many that simply don't understand what he is actually talking about, 2Pe_3:15-16.


Rev_2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


What we find here are those who believed in the idol/god and believed the meat was altered, and in addition they committed adultery all in honor of the false idol/god.


Gill:
1 Corinthians 8:7
Howbeit, there is not in every man that knowledge,.... The apostle is not speaking of Heathens, in whom there was no knowledge of the one true God, the author of all things, and of the one Lord Jesus, the only saviour and Redeemer; but of Christians, in whom there was the knowledge of these things, but not in all of them; the knowledge of this, that an idol was nothing; for though they knew that an idol was not God, and had no true deity in it, nor was it any true representation of God, yet fancied that it had an influence upon food that was offered to it, to defile it, and render it unclean, so that it ought not to be eaten; and since there were such persons that were so ignorant and weak, it became those who had more knowledge to be careful how they laid stumblingblocks in the way of such, to the prejudice of their consciences: that there were such, the apostle affirms,
for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour, eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; that is, there were some persons even at that very time, though they had been so long converted from Heathenism to Christianity, yet had such an opinion of an idol, that they really thought in their own consciences, that there were something in an idol, they could not well tell what, that defiled meats offered to it, and made them unlawful to be eaten; and yet, through the influence of the example of others, were prevailed upon to eat of them, having at the same time a notion of such food, as if it was not common food, but had received some virtue from the idol; and not without some regret, and uneasiness of mind, as being polluted with it. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read, s????e?a "through custom of the idol"; and so the Ethiopic version seems to have read: and the sense is, that some having been formerly accustomed to worship idols, and to eat things offered to them, as having received some virtue from them, still retained an opinion, that there was some difference between such meats and others.
And their conscience being weak is defiled; because such act against the dictates of their own conscience; which, though weak, is binding, and sinned against, defiles, according to the rules given by the apostle, Rom_14:14.

1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Gill:
1 Corinthians 8:8
But meat commendeth us not to God,.... These words are said by the apostle, either as expressing the argument of such as had knowledge in favour of themselves, that what they did was a thing indifferent, by which they were made neither better nor worse; nor did they look upon it as meritorious, or expect any favour from God on account of it, and therefore were not to be blamed for using their liberty in the manner they did: or else they are spoken by him as his own sense: and the meaning is, that eating of meat, any sort of meat, and so that which is offered to idols, or abstinence from it, neither one nor the other recommends any to the love and favour of God; "does not bring near", or give access to God, as the Syriac version renders the phrase; does not ingratiate any into his affectionate regards, or make them acceptable unto him:
for neither if we eat are we the better; or "abound", not in earthly but spiritual things, in the graces of the Spirit, and particularly in the esteem and good will of God, upon which such an action can have no influence:
neither if we eat not are we the worse; or are deficient; meaning not in temporal things, but, as before, in spiritual; true grace and piety are not a whit the less; nor are such persons less in the love and favour of God, which is not to be known and judged of by any such action, or the omission of it.


1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Gill:
1 Corinthians 8:9
But take heed lest by any means,.... This is either a reply to the instance of such as argued in favour of eating things offered to idols; or a limitation and explanation of the apostle's own concession, that it made a man, with respect to the favour of God, neither better nor worse: yet care should be taken, lest
this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak; he owns they had a liberty, or a right, or power, as the word may be rendered, of eating, or not eating, as they pleased; but then they ought to be cautious, lest they should be the means of offending, or causing to offend, such who were weak in the faith, and had not that knowledge of Christian liberty they had: not the use of their power and liberty is here denied, but the abuse of it is guarded against; for though the action itself was indifferent, yet as it might be used, it might be sinful, being attended with very bad consequences, such as hereafter mentioned.

wendy-p-marshall
Feb 25th 2016, 04:41 AM
Well said



God has made all animals lawful(clean) and should be received with thanks giving- Yes, but clean animals offered to demons are no longer clean (1 cor 10:14-21). Paul gives a good comparison of those that partake/share in breaking of bread (communion) as one body, therefore even those that partake of meat sacrificed to demons share in that worship.

If it happened in real life that a group of people told you to partake on meat that they offered as sacrifice to SATAN because they worship satan, would you take it just because everything has been made lawful? I bet you won't, sincerely.


Amen.

I personally, will never eat meat sacrificed unto daemons. Even less meat that was sacrifices unto satan! I don't like pork personally, I enjoy chicken, turkey, and fish and I'll eat a steak every now and then. I always try to remember to give thanks to God before eating. Sometime I forget, and take a bite before eating then I repent and ask the Lord to forgive me; giving thanks and I try to remember and appreciate the things I have like my health, my home, my job, and also my friends and family.

Peace

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 04:56 AM
Amen.

I personally, will never eat meat sacrificed unto daemons. Even less meat that was sacrifices unto satan!

I would because meat is meat to me. What someone did or prayed about it as far as a false religious sense before doesn't affect me at all especially when I pray to God over the food :)

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 05:13 AM
I would because meat is meat to me. What someone did or prayed about it as far as a false religious sense before doesn't affect me at all especially when I pray to God over the food :)

1 Cor 10:18-22 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 05:23 AM
1 Cor 10:18-22 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

lol, Paul actually said it's ok as long as no one weak was there to see

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.



There is a huge difference that isn't being understood here. Many that ate meat sacrificed to idols did so because they believed the meat would be magically altered and thus more beneficial to their bodies ie: the meat was made special by the false god the idol represented. Those that knew there was no such thing as a real idol/god knew that all meat is simply meat and does not go through any such magical change so a Christian could eat this meat without disobeying the command not to eat meat sacrificed to an idol in the sense of thinking it was more special meat because it was somehow "blessed" by the false god the idol represented. The idol represented an imaginary god and those that truly believe the meat was made special clearly believe that false god is actually real. This was a big problem for those who were pagans and believe in this, then converted to Christianity but had one foot in both religions.

So, it was wrong for a Christian to eat meat sacrificed to an idol IF they believed the idol changed the meat to make it better somehow because this shows faith in this false idol/god.

But, it was NOT WRONG for a Christian to eat the same meat sacrificed to an idol as long as everyone present knew it was just meat and the idol/god was false and they did not eat it in honor of the idol/god but simply ate it because they had opportunity to eat it or were just hungry. This was not to be done in front of those that thought the meat was special because it would be wrong to in any way encourage that idea that the meat was more special after being sacrificed to an idol/god. Paul was teaching on a high level regarding these meats and there are many that simply don't understand what he is actually talking about, 2Pe_3:15-16.


Rev_2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


What we find here are those who believed in the idol/god and believed the meat was altered, and in addition they committed adultery all in honor of the false idol/god.


Gill:
1 Corinthians 8:7
Howbeit, there is not in every man that knowledge,.... The apostle is not speaking of Heathens, in whom there was no knowledge of the one true God, the author of all things, and of the one Lord Jesus, the only saviour and Redeemer; but of Christians, in whom there was the knowledge of these things, but not in all of them; the knowledge of this, that an idol was nothing; for though they knew that an idol was not God, and had no true deity in it, nor was it any true representation of God, yet fancied that it had an influence upon food that was offered to it, to defile it, and render it unclean, so that it ought not to be eaten; and since there were such persons that were so ignorant and weak, it became those who had more knowledge to be careful how they laid stumblingblocks in the way of such, to the prejudice of their consciences: that there were such, the apostle affirms,
for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour, eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; that is, there were some persons even at that very time, though they had been so long converted from Heathenism to Christianity, yet had such an opinion of an idol, that they really thought in their own consciences, that there were something in an idol, they could not well tell what, that defiled meats offered to it, and made them unlawful to be eaten; and yet, through the influence of the example of others, were prevailed upon to eat of them, having at the same time a notion of such food, as if it was not common food, but had received some virtue from the idol; and not without some regret, and uneasiness of mind, as being polluted with it. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read, s????e?a "through custom of the idol"; and so the Ethiopic version seems to have read: and the sense is, that some having been formerly accustomed to worship idols, and to eat things offered to them, as having received some virtue from them, still retained an opinion, that there was some difference between such meats and others.
And their conscience being weak is defiled; because such act against the dictates of their own conscience; which, though weak, is binding, and sinned against, defiles, according to the rules given by the apostle, Rom_14:14.

1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Gill:
1 Corinthians 8:8
But meat commendeth us not to God,.... These words are said by the apostle, either as expressing the argument of such as had knowledge in favour of themselves, that what they did was a thing indifferent, by which they were made neither better nor worse; nor did they look upon it as meritorious, or expect any favour from God on account of it, and therefore were not to be blamed for using their liberty in the manner they did: or else they are spoken by him as his own sense: and the meaning is, that eating of meat, any sort of meat, and so that which is offered to idols, or abstinence from it, neither one nor the other recommends any to the love and favour of God; "does not bring near", or give access to God, as the Syriac version renders the phrase; does not ingratiate any into his affectionate regards, or make them acceptable unto him:
for neither if we eat are we the better; or "abound", not in earthly but spiritual things, in the graces of the Spirit, and particularly in the esteem and good will of God, upon which such an action can have no influence:
neither if we eat not are we the worse; or are deficient; meaning not in temporal things, but, as before, in spiritual; true grace and piety are not a whit the less; nor are such persons less in the love and favour of God, which is not to be known and judged of by any such action, or the omission of it.


1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Gill:
1 Corinthians 8:9
But take heed lest by any means,.... This is either a reply to the instance of such as argued in favour of eating things offered to idols; or a limitation and explanation of the apostle's own concession, that it made a man, with respect to the favour of God, neither better nor worse: yet care should be taken, lest
this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak; he owns they had a liberty, or a right, or power, as the word may be rendered, of eating, or not eating, as they pleased; but then they ought to be cautious, lest they should be the means of offending, or causing to offend, such who were weak in the faith, and had not that knowledge of Christian liberty they had: not the use of their power and liberty is here denied, but the abuse of it is guarded against; for though the action itself was indifferent, yet as it might be used, it might be sinful, being attended with very bad consequences, such as hereafter mentioned.

wendy-p-marshall
Feb 25th 2016, 05:31 AM
1 Cor 10:18-22 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Amen!

Good point. You can not serve two masters...

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (Matthew 6:24)

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 05:54 AM
Cev
1Co 8:1 In your letter you asked me about food offered to idols. All of us know something about this subject. But knowledge makes us proud of ourselves, while love makes us helpful to others.
1Co 8:2 In fact, people who think they know so much don't know anything at all.
1Co 8:3 But God has no doubts about who loves him.
1Co 8:4 Even though food is offered to idols, we know that none of the idols in this world are alive. After all, there is only one God.
1Co 8:5 Many things in heaven and on earth are called gods and lords, but none of them really are gods or lords.
1Co 8:6 We have only one God, and he is the Father. He created everything, and we live for him. Jesus Christ is our only Lord. Everything was made by him, and by him life was given to us.
1Co 8:7 Not everyone knows these things. In fact, many people have grown up with the belief that idols have life in them. So when they eat meat offered to idols, they are bothered by a weak conscience.
1Co 8:8 But food doesn't bring us any closer to God. We are no worse off if we don't eat, and we are no better off if we do.
1Co 8:9 Don't cause problems for someone with a weak conscience, just because you have the right to eat anything.
1Co 8:10 You know all this, and so it doesn't bother you to eat in the temple of an idol. But suppose a person with a weak conscience sees you and decides to eat food that has been offered to idols.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 06:06 AM
lol, Paul actually said it's ok as long as no one weak was there to see

People really misunderstand Paul, His letter is addressed to Corinthians whose history was riddled with idol worshiping and the definition of Idols Paul is referring to here was:
worthless objects taken as gods- they don't hear nor speak, they are creation of man.
I understand Paul based on this, i mean there are people who worship cows today- slaughter that cow now i will be the first to give thanks to the Almighty and be the first to feast on it. Paul goes one step ahead and issues a stern warning to them, listen:

1 Cor 10:14-22 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Please take note of the question (underlined) and the answer (underlined)
What Paul says is, after all that he has just talked about regarding food sacrificed to worthless objects, they should take consideration of those that are sacrificed to demons because demons are no longer those worthless objects he was talking about- they hear,speak and take action.

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 06:10 AM
And taking that along with what he said in Chp 8 means if a person is strong enough in their faith they can eat meat sacrificed to an idol...anyone else who is weaker in faith should not.



People really misunderstand Paul, His letter is addressed to Corinthians whose history was riddled with idol worshiping and the definition of Idols Paul is referring to here was:
worthless objects taken as gods- they don't hear nor speak, they are creation of man.
I understand Paul based on this, i mean there are people who worship cows today- slaughter that cow now i will be the first to give thanks to the Almighty and be the first to feast on it. Paul goes one step ahead and issues a stern warning to them, listen:

1 Cor 10:14-22 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Please take note of the question (underlined) and the answer (underlined)
What Paul says is, after all that he has just talked about regarding food sacrificed to worthless objects, they should take consideration of those that are sacrificed to demons because demons are no longer those worthless objects he was talking about- they hear,speak and take action.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 06:18 AM
And taking that along with what he said in Chp 8 means if a person is strong enough in their faith they can eat meat sacrificed to an idol...anyone else who is weaker in faith should not.

You still misunderstand Paul- He is referencing 2 types of idols:
1. worthless objects- no harm
2. satan/demons- harmful/ stay away

He gives a stern warning to the Corinthians because demons are harmful, otherwise Paul should've just stopped at chapter 8 & 9. Giving the warning in chapter 10 makes him contradict what he has already established in 8 & 9 but for those who understand Paul- it is not contradictory because it is very clear- stay away from food sacrificed to demons. Allah is not just an idol but the idol.

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 06:29 AM
You still misunderstand Paul- He is referencing 2 types of idols:
1. worthless objects- no harm
2. satan/demons- harmful/ stay away

No difference at all is made.

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Verses 25 and 27 make it clear that it doesn't matter what or who the meat was sacrificed to....you don't even have to ask! It doesn't matter at all. It all comes down to spiritual maturity and a mature faith.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 06:39 AM
No difference at all is made.

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Verses 25 and 27 make it clear that it doesn't matter what or who the meat was sacrificed to....you don't even have to ask! It doesn't matter at all. It all comes down to spiritual maturity and a mature faith.

Here, Paul is concluding on the topic and finishes by recap' of his main point about eating meat offered to worthless objects BUT the warning stands

If what you are saying is true, then Paul contradicted himself and we should not associate such contradictions with God.

If it happened in real life that satan came to you and offered you a plate of food like "i'm satan, eat this" will you eat just because everything has been made lawful?

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 06:47 AM
There is no contradiction. It's very simple. For some, they can eat anything it doesn't matter where it came from and they need not even ask. For others, clearly weaker in the faith like new Christians, they should not eat any of these meats.




Here, Paul is concluding on the topic and finishes by recap' of his main point about eating meat offered to worthless objects BUT the warning stands

If what you are saying is true, then Paul contradicted himself and we should not associate such contradictions with God.




If it happened in real life that satan came to you and offered you a plate of food like "i'm satan, eat this" will you eat just because everything has been made lawful?

Of course I would. Satan is nothing to me and I know the meat is just meat and I will eat it thanking Jesus and his Father.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 07:23 AM
There is no contradiction. It's very simple. For some, they can eat anything it doesn't matter where it came from and they need not even ask. For others, clearly weaker in the faith like new Christians, they should not eat any of these meats.

In chapter 8 and Paul's conclusion, there is that separation- weak and strong Christians but in his warning there's no separation- it is everyone- Corinthians plus the world today. Here is the verse again:

1 cor 10:14-22
14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

I don't see where strong christians are told not to eat meat sacrificed to demons when in the presence of weak Christians.

No wonder:
2 Peter 3: 15-16 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Between me and you- Peter is talking about you here and i will explain:

As a 'strong' christian, you say you eat everything- if you are wrong, your destruction is nigh-

Rev 2:14-16 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Me- as a 'weak' christian who doesn't eat anything sacrificed to idols i don't face any judgement whether i'm right or wrong but i'm wise.

Wisdom is: If you are given 2 plates of meat and told one is poisoned, others came and told you none is poisoned- a wise man abstains from both plates and any other meat plate in the room because he knows that the meat is not going to add or reduce anything he has. A fool will go to furthest extent- carry out tests, smell the food and eventually take poisoned food.
Same thing i tell atheist- i'm a fool, i follow God, if i'm wrong i don't loose anything. They're clever, if they are wrong, they loose everything- such is wisdom.

In this last days, Satan manifests in different and very many ways, he has occupied the temple of God and shows himself as if God and God has occupied the temple of our hearts- for this reason, everything about worship must be in spirit and not physical. I can not even come to terms with the holy communion being done in our churches because all these things were done in the physical before as symbolism of the spiritual to come (even baptism by water), whoever holds on to physical practices thinking they are strong christians are misled.

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 07:38 AM
I've quoted Paul to prove your interpretation wrong and have said all I can so it's the old "agree to disagree" thing at this point.

BTW: spiritually poisoned meat does not exist for Christians.





In chapter 8 and Paul's conclusion, there is that separation- weak and strong Christians but in his warning there's no separation- it is everyone- Corinthians plus the world today. Here is the verse again:

1 cor 10:14-22
14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

I don't see where strong christians are told not to eat meat sacrificed to demons when in the presence of weak Christians.

No wonder:
2 Peter 3: 15-16 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Between me and you- Peter is talking about you here and i will explain:

As a 'strong' christian, you say you eat everything- if you are wrong, your destruction is nigh-

Rev 2:14-16 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Me- as a 'weak' christian who doesn't eat anything sacrificed to idols i don't face any judgement whether i'm right or wrong but i'm wise.

Wisdom is: If you are given 2 plates of meat and told one is poisoned, others came and told you none is poisoned- a wise man abstains from both plates and any other meat plate in the room because he knows that the meat is not going to add or reduce anything he has. A fool will go to furthest extent- carry out tests, smell the food and eventually take poisoned food.
Same thing i tell atheist- i'm a fool, i follow God, if i'm wrong i don't loose anything. They're clever, if they are wrong, they loose everything- such is wisdom.

In this last days, Satan manifests in different and very many ways, he has occupied the temple of God and shows himself as if God and God has occupied the temple of our hearts- for this reason, everything about worship must be in spirit and not physical. I can not even come to terms of the holy communion being done in our churches because all these things were done in the physical before as symbolism of the spiritual to come (even baptism by water), whoever holds on to physical practices thinking they are strong christians are misled.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 07:45 AM
I've quoted Paul to prove your interpretation wrong and have said all I can so it's the old "agree to disagree" thing at this point.

I have also quoted Paul to prove your interpretation wrong.


BTW: spiritually poisoned meat does not exist for Christians.

It does:

1 Cor 10:20-21 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons.

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 07:49 AM
1 Cor 10:20-21 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons.

Paul says this to the weak Christians. He also says others can in fact eat this same food.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 08:20 AM
Paul says this to the weak Christians. He also says others can in fact eat this same food.

No he is not.
Paul can not be saying that strong Christians can partake in the cup of demons and only stop if the conscience of the weak is ruined. He says, if anyone does that He arouses the Lord to jealousy.

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 08:28 AM
No he is not.

Ok, well I disagree and have made my case. I have a frozen lasagna that was sacrificed to Satan, devils and false idols that I am going to eat so I'm going to be busy with that. See ya later.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 08:49 AM
Ok, well I disagree and have made my case. I have a frozen lasagna that was sacrificed to Satan, devils and false idols that I am going to eat so I'm going to be busy with that. See ya later.
:P See you later

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 08:54 AM
:P See you later

Sorry, what I said was uncalled for and not funny...I meant to make a point.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 09:05 AM
Sorry, what I said was uncalled for and not funny...I meant to make a point.

We are good, it is only a discussion.:pp

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 09:09 AM
We are good, it is only a discussion.:pp


Sometimes my jokes are great, sometimes they aren't lol

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 09:11 AM
Sometimes my jokes are great, sometimes they aren't lol

It is part of being human

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 09:16 AM
It is part of being human


Ok, so you understand that Paul did say eating meats sacrificed to false gods/idols was ok sometimes but if they were sacrificed to demons/satan then there was no ok way to eat them...that's what I have inferred from you posts.

I can work with that because the eating meats sacrificed to false gods/idols is my main interest here.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 09:54 AM
Ok, so you understand that Paul did say eating meats sacrificed to false gods/idols was ok sometimes but if they were sacrificed to demons/satan then there was no ok way to eat them...that's what I have inferred from you posts.

I can work with that because the eating meats sacrificed to false gods/idols is my main interest here.

Exactly- but my main interest is allah
Who is allah? why does he demand that animals must be slaughtered in a particular way with his name pronounced on them?
To me, he is real, he is unknown god

ewq1938
Feb 25th 2016, 10:26 AM
Exactly- but my main interest is allah

I am not Muslim. My God is "God".



Who is allah? why does he demand that animals must be slaughtered in a particular way with his name pronounced on them?
To me, he is real, he is unknown god


Christians do not believe these things.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 10:40 AM
I am not Muslim. My God is "God".

Christians do not believe these things.

They should not but they must be awake

CadyandZoe
Feb 25th 2016, 01:09 PM
Exactly- but my main interest is allah
Who is allah? why does he demand that animals must be slaughtered in a particular way with his name pronounced on them?
To me, he is real, he is unknown god

As Paul says in 1Corinthians 8, there may be many "gods" in this world, but for us there is but one God. In 1Corinthians 10 he says this:

1Corinthians 10:18-20
Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.

Allah isn't a real God; he is a demon or a bunch of demons under the authority of Satan himself.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 01:19 PM
As Paul says in 1Corinthians 8, there may be many "gods" in this world, but for us there is but one God. In 1Corinthians 10 he says this:

1Corinthians 10:18-20
Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.

Allah isn't a real God; he is a demon or a bunch of demons under the authority of Satan himself.
Exactly my point