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uric3
Feb 25th 2016, 04:08 PM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Also I am sure some will mention that we should follow the elders requests... however for discussion sake what about the practice itself, is it wrong or questionable? I have my thoughts but I would rather hear what everyone thinks beforehand for the sake of discussion so I can get peoples unaltered thoughts without mine being a deterrent.

Here is the announcement that was made:

"



The shepherds of this congregation endeavor to serve and lead with certain principles always in the forefront of our minds.

One - fidelity to the Word of God.
Two - maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Recently Mike presented a Sunday morning message focused on the vital importance of worship. His lesson was preceded by an introductory statement from the shepherds in which heavy emphasis was placed on minimizing distractions in the worship service in order to facilitate your personal worship, and to assist your brother by not presenting a distraction to him. We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

In the same vein, the shepherds have observed that our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus instead of to God the Father. For some of you this may seem an unimportant distinction, for others however, this is a very grave matter. Additionally, it seems reasonable to us that if one or two are offended by this practice and speak with us – there are likely others who are also offended yet remain silent.

The shepherds have considered this question at different times over a period of many months. We have consulted scripture and we have discussed the matter with others.

Having done this, it is our judgement that while conceding that each one’s understanding and practice in their personal prayers will differ with their own understanding, in order to show love and deference to all who gather to worship in our assembly, it is most appropriate and expedient for us to refrain from addressing our public prayers in a way that obstructs the worship of any assembled

Therefore, the shepherds ask that those who lead prayer in any of our public assemblies be attentive and sensitive to everyone in the assembly by directing our petitions directly to God, or God the Father and refraining from making petition to Jesus.

The psalmist informs us: “Behold how good and pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell in unity.”
- Ps 133:1

The shepherds thank you for your sensitivity in this matter and we are confident in your desire to serve God while demonstrating your love for the body that meets here.

Thank you."

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and comments.

always
Feb 25th 2016, 04:19 PM
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

We are to pray and do all things as the scriptures direct us., through Jesus Christ, your elders are attempting to build ecumenical ties, however I feel that we do this sometimes in error.

LifeSong
Feb 25th 2016, 04:28 PM
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

We are to pray and do all things as the scriptures direct us., through Jesus Christ, your elders are attempting to build ecumenical ties, however I feel that we do this sometimes in error.

This pretty much sums it up, John 14:6 is all you need to know.

Moose
Feb 25th 2016, 04:34 PM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Also I am sure some will mention that we should follow the elders requests... however for discussion sake what about the practice itself, is it wrong or questionable? I have my thoughts but I would rather hear what everyone thinks beforehand for the sake of discussion so I can get peoples unaltered thoughts without mine being a deterrent.

Here is the announcement that was made:

"


The shepherds of this congregation endeavor to serve and lead with certain principles always in the forefront of our minds.

One - fidelity to the Word of God.
Two - maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Recently Mike presented a Sunday morning message focused on the vital importance of worship. His lesson was preceded by an introductory statement from the shepherds in which heavy emphasis was placed on minimizing distractions in the worship service in order to facilitate your personal worship, and to assist your brother by not presenting a distraction to him. We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

In the same vein, the shepherds have observed that our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus instead of to God the Father. For some of you this may seem an unimportant distinction, for others however, this is a very grave matter. Additionally, it seems reasonable to us that if one or two are offended by this practice and speak with us – there are likely others who are also offended yet remain silent.

The shepherds have considered this question at different times over a period of many months. We have consulted scripture and we have discussed the matter with others.

Having done this, it is our judgement that while conceding that each one’s understanding and practice in their personal prayers will differ with their own understanding, in order to show love and deference to all who gather to worship in our assembly, it is most appropriate and expedient for us to refrain from addressing our public prayers in a way that obstructs the worship of any assembled

Therefore, the shepherds ask that those who lead prayer in any of our public assemblies be attentive and sensitive to everyone in the assembly by directing our petitions directly to God, or God the Father and refraining from making petition to Jesus.

The psalmist informs us: “Behold how good and pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell in unity.”
- Ps 133:1

The shepherds thank you for your sensitivity in this matter and we are confident in your desire to serve God while demonstrating your love for the body that meets here.

Thank you."

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and comments.







Churches are leading people astray. When man sinned, we were separated from God. Sin actually means separation from God and Jesus is the bridge back to God.

Trivalee
Feb 25th 2016, 05:19 PM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Also I am sure some will mention that we should follow the elders requests... however for discussion sake what about the practice itself, is it wrong or questionable? I have my thoughts but I would rather hear what everyone thinks beforehand for the sake of discussion so I can get peoples unaltered thoughts without mine being a deterrent.

Here is the announcement that was made:

"


The shepherds of this congregation endeavor to serve and lead with certain principles always in the forefront of our minds.

One - fidelity to the Word of God.
Two - maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Recently Mike presented a Sunday morning message focused on the vital importance of worship. His lesson was preceded by an introductory statement from the shepherds in which heavy emphasis was placed on minimizing distractions in the worship service in order to facilitate your personal worship, and to assist your brother by not presenting a distraction to him. We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

In the same vein, the shepherds have observed that our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus instead of to God the Father. For some of you this may seem an unimportant distinction, for others however, this is a very grave matter. Additionally, it seems reasonable to us that if one or two are offended by this practice and speak with us – there are likely others who are also offended yet remain silent.

The shepherds have considered this question at different times over a period of many months. We have consulted scripture and we have discussed the matter with others.

Having done this, it is our judgement that while conceding that each one’s understanding and practice in their personal prayers will differ with their own understanding, in order to show love and deference to all who gather to worship in our assembly, it is most appropriate and expedient for us to refrain from addressing our public prayers in a way that obstructs the worship of any assembled

Therefore, the shepherds ask that those who lead prayer in any of our public assemblies be attentive and sensitive to everyone in the assembly by directing our petitions directly to God, or God the Father and refraining from making petition to Jesus.

The psalmist informs us: “Behold how good and pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell in unity.”
- Ps 133:1

The shepherds thank you for your sensitivity in this matter and we are confident in your desire to serve God while demonstrating your love for the body that meets here.

Thank you."

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and comments.







I don't know your church or its denomination, but the instruction to pray directly to God clearly negates many aspects of our relationship with Jesus in scripture. The bible says that Jesus is our mediator (1 Tim 2:5, John 14:6) Hebrew said he is our eternal high priest (Heb 4:14, 6:20). Priests intercede between man and God.

I certainly will not honour such instruction.

jaybird
Feb 25th 2016, 05:50 PM
Jesus teaches to pray to the Father.
He also says we can ask the Father in the name of the Son.
both ways your still instructed, by Jesus Himself, to pray to the Father.
i dont see what the big deal is. is the church asking people to refrain from asking in the Sons name? if so i would have a problem with that.

Noeb
Feb 25th 2016, 05:50 PM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Also I am sure some will mention that we should follow the elders requests... however for discussion sake what about the practice itself, is it wrong or questionable? I have my thoughts but I would rather hear what everyone thinks beforehand for the sake of discussion so I can get peoples unaltered thoughts without mine being a deterrent.
I think they are wise in this decision from a unity standpoint and doctrinal one.

uric3
Feb 25th 2016, 06:08 PM
Jesus teaches to pray to the Father.
He also says we can ask the Father in the name of the Son.
both ways your still instructed, by Jesus Himself, to pray to the Father.
i dont see what the big deal is. is the church asking people to refrain from asking in the Sons name? if so i would have a problem with that.

To clarify we are not to refrain from asking in the Sons name, but to refrain from making our petitions directly to Jesus.


I think they are wise in this decision from a unity standpoint and doctrinal one.

Can you clarify more on doctrinal one... just curious as to why you might think it would be wrong.

David Taylor
Feb 25th 2016, 06:09 PM
If Christians become politically correct; and become ashamed of their own gospel and of Christ; then there is no Christian witness.

If non-Christians are in the mix, show your faith, and prayer to Christ; and allow the Holy Spirit to work in the hearts of non-believers.

To change the gospel to not offend the non-believers; does not bring glory and honor to Christ; rather, it shows you are ashamed of Him and the power of His gospel through the Holy Spirit to work out all things in the ears and hearts of the audience.

ChangedByHim
Feb 25th 2016, 06:37 PM
Wow! Leaving the topic aside, I'm just amazed at that letter. If you're going to forbid something, do so on the basis of Scripture, not because it may be meet with someone's disagreement. The leaders need to step up to the plate and state what they believe the Word teaches and instruct people in the way. As a pastor, I would never issue such a weak letter.

always
Feb 25th 2016, 06:58 PM
Wow! Leaving the topic aside, I'm just amazed at that letter. If you're going to forbid something, do so on the basis of Scripture, not because it may be meet with someone's disagreement. The leaders need to step up to the plate and state what they believe the Word teaches and instruct people in the way. As a pastor, I would never issue such a weak letter.

The National Day of Prayer ask the same thing, that is why I do not participate in it. They are praying amiss, and my God is a jealous God, our prayers to Him "Jesus" should not be exalted with the gods of pagans.

Golgotha
Feb 25th 2016, 07:02 PM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Also I am sure some will mention that we should follow the elders requests... however for discussion sake what about the practice itself, is it wrong or questionable? I have my thoughts but I would rather hear what everyone thinks beforehand for the sake of discussion so I can get peoples unaltered thoughts without mine being a deterrent.

Here is the announcement that was made:

"



The shepherds of this congregation endeavor to serve and lead with certain principles always in the forefront of our minds.

One - fidelity to the Word of God.
Two - maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Recently Mike presented a Sunday morning message focused on the vital importance of worship. His lesson was preceded by an introductory statement from the shepherds in which heavy emphasis was placed on minimizing distractions in the worship service in order to facilitate your personal worship, and to assist your brother by not presenting a distraction to him. We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

In the same vein, the shepherds have observed that our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus instead of to God the Father. For some of you this may seem an unimportant distinction, for others however, this is a very grave matter. Additionally, it seems reasonable to us that if one or two are offended by this practice and speak with us – there are likely others who are also offended yet remain silent.

The shepherds have considered this question at different times over a period of many months. We have consulted scripture and we have discussed the matter with others.

Having done this, it is our judgement that while conceding that each one’s understanding and practice in their personal prayers will differ with their own understanding, in order to show love and deference to all who gather to worship in our assembly, it is most appropriate and expedient for us to refrain from addressing our public prayers in a way that obstructs the worship of any assembled

Therefore, the shepherds ask that those who lead prayer in any of our public assemblies be attentive and sensitive to everyone in the assembly by directing our petitions directly to God, or God the Father and refraining from making petition to Jesus.

The psalmist informs us: “Behold how good and pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell in unity.”
- Ps 133:1

The shepherds thank you for your sensitivity in this matter and we are confident in your desire to serve God while demonstrating your love for the body that meets here.

Thank you."

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and comments.






You might want to ask the "shepherds" to readdress that issue again.

I am not sure how calling on the name of the Lord to be saved is not calling on Jesus in prayer.

There is also this truth to be had that Jesus is inbetween us and the Father when it comes to prayer as being at that throne of grace by Whom we have access to God the Father in prayer.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Now that He has ascended, when we do see Jesus again, He will not pray for us as we can ask the Father directly.

John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

So going before that throne of grace now is asking Jesus for help, but we can pray to the Father by Him as well.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus is our Passover Lamb by Whom we can have access to God the Father in prayer. Soon, when we have been made perfect, and see Jesus face to face, we will be free to ask the Father directly in His name.

We as the bride are to seek the face of the Bridegroom in fellowship, prayer, and worship.

Psalm 27:1 The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?....7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek. 9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. 10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up. 11 Teach me thy way, O Lord, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Seems pretty clear to me that Jesus is the face of that Light we are to seek in fellowship, prayer, and worship.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Those offended can stop being offended, because the Father provided the Son as the only way to come to the Father by. Climbing around the Son without acknowledging the Passover Lamb of God as our access to God the Father is to dishonor the Father by dishonoring the Son.

Jesus said that God the Father has set up a judgment on all believers to follow.

John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

It is because of other spirits in the world is why the way is narrow in the worship place in coming to God the Father.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So I can see why the solution to avoid being led astray is to narrow the way back to keeping that spotlight on the Son in worship because He is the only way we can honor & glorify God the Father by.

No. It is not about denying the deity of the Holy Spirit nor denying the doctrine of the Trinity, but God is not glorified by glorifying the name of the Trinity. God is only glorified in the Son as it is His name which above every other name to the glory of God the Father which is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship. Philippians 2:5-13

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Stonesoffire
Feb 25th 2016, 07:28 PM
My personal opinion would be that in the corporate setting we address Father in Jesus name.

Individually, we can speak to any one of the three. Heaven knows we are coming always in the name of Jesus if that Word abides in out heart.

And I also think this is a matter of maturity. Babes may address Jesus in the beginning.

kf4zmt
Feb 25th 2016, 07:36 PM
I think they are wise in this decision from a unity standpoint and doctrinal one.

Does this promote unity, or uniformity? There is a difference.

Noeb
Feb 25th 2016, 07:41 PM
Can you clarify more on doctrinal one... just curious as to why you might think it would be wrong.just saying it is correct to ask the Father as instructed by Jesus himself.


Does this promote unity, or uniformity? There is a difference.Both
.

kf4zmt
Feb 25th 2016, 07:50 PM
If Christians become politically correct; and become ashamed of their own gospel and of Christ; then there is no Christian witness.

If non-Christians are in the mix, show your faith, and prayer to Christ; and allow the Holy Spirit to work in the hearts of non-believers.

To change the gospel to not offend the non-believers; does not bring glory and honor to Christ; rather, it shows you are ashamed of Him and the power of His gospel through the Holy Spirit to work out all things in the ears and hearts of the audience.

Just to be clear, it was not non-Christians who were offended. Those who were offended were Christians who think that prayers may ONLY be directed to God the Father.

kf4zmt
Feb 25th 2016, 07:56 PM
just saying it is correct to ask the Father as instructed by Jesus himself.

Both
.

It doesn't promote unity because now all the people who believe it is scriptural to pray to Jesus are "offended" and feel that a God given right has been taken away during the worship service. It does promote uniformity, but forced uniformity is ultimately divisive. Especially over a matter as fundamental to our faith as prayer!

kf4zmt
Feb 25th 2016, 08:01 PM
Wow! Leaving the topic aside, I'm just amazed at that letter. If you're going to forbid something, do so on the basis of Scripture, not because it may be meet with someone's disagreement. The leaders need to step up to the plate and state what they believe the Word teaches and instruct people in the way. As a pastor, I would never issue such a weak letter.

Tail wagging the dog for sure.

David Taylor
Feb 25th 2016, 08:12 PM
Just to be clear, it was not non-Christians who were offended. Those who were offended were Christians who think that prayers may ONLY be directed to God the Father.

Then they are pretty confused.

Prayers are offered up to YHWH.

The Father is YHWH, Jesus is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH.

YHWH is a jealous God; but isn't in disharmony with Himself whatsoever.

There is no difference in offering a prayer to Jesus than to offering a prayer to the Father; same YHWH, same Creator of us all.

always
Feb 25th 2016, 09:00 PM
Just to be clear, it was not non-Christians who were offended. Those who were offended were Christians who think that prayers may ONLY be directed to God the Father.


I wonder ....... maybe former Jehovah's Witnessess? maybe wrong just asking

Noeb
Feb 25th 2016, 09:06 PM
It doesn't promote unity because now all the people who believe it is scriptural to pray to Jesus are "offended" and feel that a God given right has been taken away during the worship service. It does promote uniformity, but forced uniformity is ultimately divisive. Especially over a matter as fundamental to our faith as prayer!Why would people who believe it is scriptural to pray to Jesus be "offended" in praying to the Father as instructed by Jesus?

kf4zmt
Feb 25th 2016, 09:12 PM
Why would people who believe it is scriptural to pray to Jesus be "offended" in praying to the Father as instructed by Jesus?

No one is offended by the idea of praying to the Father. The offense is that they are being told they can't pray to Jesus in the public church assembly. The New Testament is very clear that praying to Jesus is a privilege bestowed upon Christians.

always
Feb 25th 2016, 09:15 PM
Why would people who believe it is scriptural to pray to Jesus be "offended" in praying to the Father as instructed by Jesus?


That's why I asked from the letter it seems to be just a couple, that may have come from a Jehovah's Witness background that taught them that they should only pray to God, Jehovah, and if that is true, they should be ministered to and not appeased

chad
Feb 25th 2016, 09:18 PM
Well, imo Jesus is God in the form of the son.

So if you are praying to Jesus you are praying to God. Jesus is part of the Godhead and trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and is seated at the right hand of God.

As others have pointed out, he is our High Priest (Heb 4:14) under the New Covenant (Heb 5:8-10) and Intercedes on our behalf (Heb 7:24-25).

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 25th 2016, 09:37 PM
I've never actually heard of such a request being made by leadership of an assembly before. On one hand, I am not encouraging rebellion or discord, and would personally have no problem praying to the Father in Jesus name. On the other hand, I would have appreciated more information as to what prompted this whole thing, otherwise it leaves more speculation than I feel comfortable with. Like always said, it could be a step towards ecumenism - it may not be. The point is without knowing why this thing is being brought down after 'long deliberation' sort of worries me in terms of the intentions of those who deliberated on the matter.

Noeb
Feb 25th 2016, 10:10 PM
always, I'm not now, nor have I ever been JW, go by scripture, and only ask the Father. Jesus said ask the Father, so it's the common sense solution for everyone. No one needs ministered to, and no one is being appeased.

Noeb
Feb 25th 2016, 10:14 PM
No one is offended by the idea of praying to the Father.problem solved



The offense is that they are being told they can't pray to Jesus in the public church assembly. The New Testament is very clear that praying to Jesus is a privilege bestowed upon Christians.It is?

jaybird
Feb 25th 2016, 10:15 PM
always, I'm not now, nor have I ever been JW, go by scripture, and only ask the Father. Jesus said ask the Father, so it's the common sense solution for everyone. No one needs ministered to, and no one is being appeased.

i agree, it makes no sense why someone would need to be ministered to when they are doing just what Jesus instructed to do.

always
Feb 25th 2016, 10:18 PM
always, I'm not now, nor have I ever been JW, go by scripture, and only ask the Father. Jesus said ask the Father, so it's the common sense solution for everyone. No one needs ministered to, and no one is being appeased.


I wasn't saying YOU were, the letter states that one or two were offended, and maybe more that were not saying anything, I did not realized they were referencing you if they were.

chad
Feb 26th 2016, 12:08 AM
Do you know if the leaders ever prayed to Jesus, to ask him to forgive them of their sins?

Tony P
Feb 26th 2016, 01:18 AM
I agree with the concept of unity in the church. But when it comes to praying to Jesus, I think the pastor is a bit off base.

I have no problem with praying to our Father either. The problem lies with the appeasement of a couple of petty members. A Christian that is offended by a prayer to Jesus needs to get a life. Really. They obviously don't have any real problems if a prayer to Jesus bothers them that much. A politically correct church is at best a lukewarm church. The church is not supposed to fit into this world. The word church means "call out ones." Trying to make everyone happy will never work.

Now, if the complaining members are major financial contributors, it may explain the pastors memo. If so, the problem is much worse.

Old man
Feb 26th 2016, 01:53 AM
Interesting topic to be sure:

I see some scriptures being mentioned but none that actually say to pray to Jesus.

Would someone care to post a list of scriptures that actually say that:


We should pray to the Father
That we should pray to Jesus
That we should pray to the Holy Spirit



Perhaps we could go through them one at a time to see if the actual context supports any of these views.

doug3
Feb 26th 2016, 02:01 AM
Jesus teaches to pray to the Father.
He also says we can ask the Father in the name of the Son.
both ways your still instructed, by Jesus Himself, to pray to the Father.
i dont see what the big deal is. is the church asking people to refrain from asking in the Sons name? if so i would have a problem with that.

I really do not see where the problem is either.

This specific case is only a move towards ecumenism and political correctness if they specifically ordered people not to mention Jesus in their prayers.

I always pray to the Father and say "in Jesus Christ name" and "through Jesus Christ" in my prayers. I also sometimes address the Lord Jesus Christ directly.

When I first became a believer, I too prayed to Jesus because nearly everyone else did, but as I actually studied the structures I realized that we were instructed to pray to the Father. The "Lord's prayer" (Matthew 6:9-13; Luke 11:1-4 is the clearest example of this). We are also instructed to pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:13, Joh 15:16; John 16:23). I do not recall anywhere in the scriptures where we are instructed to pray to the Holy Spirit.

I believe that as God opens Scriptures to us, we then become responsible for doing what they say. It is the responsibility of spiritual leaders to set the example and teach the people to follow the Lord Jesus' instructions.

I quite agree that it was a weak letter, but not because it was wrong in itself, but because the elders did not lay out the scriptural basis for their decision. They could have been much more diplomatic. The matter should have been handled by the pastor and other leaders setting an example based on scripture, and not by an insensitive letter.

Stonesoffire
Feb 26th 2016, 02:21 AM
Holy Spirit is our teacher. Do we not converse with our teacher? ;)

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 02:30 AM
Holy Spirit is our teacher. Do we not converse with our teacher? ;)ask isn't converse with teacher.

Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 02:34 AM
I wasn't saying YOU were, the letter states that one or two were offended, and maybe more that were not saying anything, I did not realized they were referencing you if they were.They're not, and I didn't think you were either, I was pointing out that JW doesn't have anything to do with the concept. The concept is scripture. My main point though was that since it is how Jesus said to pray, what's the problem? Now, I could discuss it at length and have here, and saying that Jesus is God just doesn't cut it, because that's not the question. I used to pray to Jesus, but then I learned scripture and stopped. Others will do the same. Stop and really think about what Jesus was saying when he said to ask the Father, you will not ask Jesus, Jesus will not ask for us, you will ask Father yourself because he loves you because you love Jesus. How profound! How awesome! What I God we have that calls us sons! How do you pray to Jesus after reading and understanding it? Now go find all instances of prayers to Jesus. How many did you find? Now why would you continue to pray to Jesus contrary to scripture?

The letter said, and I quote, "The shepherds have considered this question at different times over a period of many months. We have consulted scripture and we have discussed the matter with others.

Having done this, it is our judgement that....."

I suggest everyone do the same. John 14:6 is irrelevant. Jesus is the bridge back to God is irrelevant. Jesus is our mediator and eternal high priest is irrelevant. Christians being politically correct has nothing to do with it. Praying to the Father as instructed by Jesus is not changing the gospel, brings glory and honor to Christ, shows you are not ashamed of the gospel and way Christ made for you, doesn't contradict a single thing in Golgotha's long post, is not petty teaching scripture and wanting your local body to follow Jesus' instruction etc.....

Stonesoffire
Feb 26th 2016, 02:35 AM
Asking isn't conversing? We don't "ask" for direction to the One who leads us?

The problem is really the word should.

There are no laws to prayer. Just do it. Like Nike..

Tony P
Feb 26th 2016, 02:41 AM
ask isn't converse with teacher.

For many people praying isn't just about asking for things. It is also about praise and fellowship with the Lord our God.


Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

The context of this passage refers to the time AFTER Jesus returns.

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 02:46 AM
For many people praying...... is also about praise and fellowship with the Lord our God.I don't think that's what the discussion is about..... "our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus"




The context of this passage refers to the time AFTER Jesus returns.No. No it does not.

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 02:48 AM
Asking isn't conversing?No it's not.



We don't "ask" for direction to the One who leads us?No you don't. Ask the Father and let the Spirit do his job.



The problem is really the word should.The problem is really the Word. It says to ask the Father.

Reynolds357
Feb 26th 2016, 03:27 AM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Also I am sure some will mention that we should follow the elders requests... however for discussion sake what about the practice itself, is it wrong or questionable? I have my thoughts but I would rather hear what everyone thinks beforehand for the sake of discussion so I can get peoples unaltered thoughts without mine being a deterrent.

Here is the announcement that was made:

"


The shepherds of this congregation endeavor to serve and lead with certain principles always in the forefront of our minds.

One - fidelity to the Word of God.
Two - maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Recently Mike presented a Sunday morning message focused on the vital importance of worship. His lesson was preceded by an introductory statement from the shepherds in which heavy emphasis was placed on minimizing distractions in the worship service in order to facilitate your personal worship, and to assist your brother by not presenting a distraction to him. We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

In the same vein, the shepherds have observed that our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus instead of to God the Father. For some of you this may seem an unimportant distinction, for others however, this is a very grave matter. Additionally, it seems reasonable to us that if one or two are offended by this practice and speak with us – there are likely others who are also offended yet remain silent.

The shepherds have considered this question at different times over a period of many months. We have consulted scripture and we have discussed the matter with others.

Having done this, it is our judgement that while conceding that each one’s understanding and practice in their personal prayers will differ with their own understanding, in order to show love and deference to all who gather to worship in our assembly, it is most appropriate and expedient for us to refrain from addressing our public prayers in a way that obstructs the worship of any assembled

Therefore, the shepherds ask that those who lead prayer in any of our public assemblies be attentive and sensitive to everyone in the assembly by directing our petitions directly to God, or God the Father and refraining from making petition to Jesus.

The psalmist informs us: “Behold how good and pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell in unity.”
- Ps 133:1

The shepherds thank you for your sensitivity in this matter and we are confident in your desire to serve God while demonstrating your love for the body that meets here.

Thank you."

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and comments.







First and foremost, the letter is weak and offensive. It just seems glaringly obvious that some important person in your church is offended by prayer to Jesus.
First off, what is prayer? There are many types, but they are all a form of talking to God. Do you ever talk to Jesus? I talk to Him all the time. The Elders in your church think talking to Jesus is wrong? If one wants to be extremely legalistic, they could make a case that scripture instructs prayers of petition to be directed to The Father. I often petition Jesus. Many times I say "Jesus help me today." Many times I say "Jesus, guide me today." Your Church is way too legalistic about a subject that is simply a conversation with God.

Tony P
Feb 26th 2016, 03:28 AM
No. No it does not.

See the verses that precede this passage.

John 16:16 A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father
John 16:22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.


Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples before he went to the Father. (John 20:17) Verse 16 makes it clear why Jesus would not been seen for a little while. Because he went to the father. He did go to the Father during his three days in the heart of the earth. (Matt 12:40, John 20:17)

The "little while" that Jesus will not be seen is now, the period between his ascension and his return. Not the three days in the tomb. In verse 22, when Jesus is seen again, your/our joy cannot be taken by anyone. There are plenty of things that can take our joy. Death of loved ones, etc. That time can only apply to his second coming. Also in verse 25, Jesus will speak plainly about the Father. Has that happened yet? After his return.

Finally, the most obvious reason this is about the time after His return. Verse 23. Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Do people get everything they pray for today? Not at all. When Jesus returns, our Father will give us what we ask for in his son's name.

Old man
Feb 26th 2016, 03:44 AM
… The problem is really the Word. It says to ask the Father.
Quite right … it is all about what the word says.

Are there no scriptures that either … say to pray to Jesus … or … the context indicates it is proper to pray to Jesus?

Scooby_Snacks
Feb 26th 2016, 04:23 AM
Well, I hope things work out for your congregation.
I was reading the letter and, I mean, how common is it to put serious issues out in print to everyone, rather than holding a live meeting for that purpose?

Maybe the congregation is too huge to have a more personal (maybe even lengthy) discussion face to face...I dunno.

Best wishes though.

Jesus is my friend, I do talk to Him quite often.
I had to think about my petitions..usually to God, sometimes using the word Lord combines the two --

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 10:58 AM
Quite right … it is all about what the word says.

Are there no scriptures that either … say to pray to Jesus … or … the context indicates it is proper to pray to Jesus?
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

This is not asking in the John 16/Lord's prayer sense though.

Like I said, I understand why people do it, but not why people ignore John 16, the Lords prayer, and a dozen other examples throughout the NT where prayer is addressed to the Father, or why people want to say John 14:6, Jesus is the bridge back to God, and Jesus is our mediator and eternal high priest mean we ask him, or that Christians are being politically correct, changing the gospel, not bringing glory and honor to Christ, are ashamed of the gospel, are petty, and I guess now we can add legalistic. Looks like someone needs to learn what that means. It's one thing to say you think it is scriptural to ask Jesus. It's another to say it is, not provide any scripture, and make all these false accusations.

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 11:10 AM
See the verses that precede this passage.

John 16:16 A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father
John 16:22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples before he went to the Father. (John 20:17) Verse 16 makes it clear why Jesus would not been seen for a little while. Because he went to the father. He did go to the Father during his three days in the heart of the earth. (Matt 12:40, John 20:17)

The "little while" that Jesus will not be seen is now, the period between his ascension and his return. Not the three days in the tomb.Disagree



In verse 22, when Jesus is seen again, your/our joy cannot be taken by anyone. There are plenty of things that can take our joy. Death of loved ones, etc. That time can only apply to his second coming.Disagree



Also in verse 25, Jesus will speak plainly about the Father. Has that happened yet?Yes



Finally, the most obvious reason this is about the time after His return. Verse 23. Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Do people get everything they pray for today?Not what it says. It's the disciples and yes, as with Jesus everyone was healed and delivered even from cloth touched by an apostle. Not to mention the condition, in my name.

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 11:18 AM
Do you know if the leaders ever prayed to Jesus, to ask him to forgive them of their sins?Why would they do that?

jaybird
Feb 26th 2016, 01:55 PM
i dont think its a big deal what the church is doing. i am assuming their was a discussion with the congratulation in addition to the letter. i think it would be a bit cold to not discuss it.
i think there are to many today that think Christianity should be practiced in an on the fly convenient type way, not thinking about what the bible says about procedure , protocol and other details. when reading the Hebrew bible you see our Lord giving very specific details on how to do the littlest of things.
i think many churches have fallen from the true church, and when they try and get back to the fundamentals they fell from they get attacked.

uric3
Feb 26th 2016, 02:56 PM
I want to thank everyone for the discussion and have read through all of it. Some things I might mention I noticed a few noting there was no scripture or questions whether or not there was scripture that addressed praying to Jesus. I didn't really see any responses except for the example of Stephen when he was stoned. So I thought I would share a few passages that mention praying to Jesus...

1st John 5:13-15 "13 These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the boldness that we have toward Him, that if anything we may ask according to his will, He doth hear us,15 and if we have known that He doth hear us, whatever we may ask, we have known that we have the requests that we have requested from Him. (YLT)

1 Tim 1:12 " And I give thanks to him who enabled me -- Christ Jesus our Lord -- that he did reckon me stedfast, having put [me] to the ministration, ..." (YLT)

Another one to consider is 2nd Cor 12:7-9 where Paul requested the Lord to remove his thorn in the flesh. When he gets a response it notes that his grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. What power well rather after that it notes its the power of Christ.

Also at the start of most letters and in the close of most letters we normally see them concluded or started with coming from or going to Christ.

So its seen throughout scripture... and to some of the other comments I have to agree the letter was a little insensitive, and there wasn't a discussion with the congregation to my knowledge, I travel a lot for work and may have missed something but I have ask my wife and other members and it appears this letter was it... so it was a bit cold... and weak as noted. Honestly I started going here due to it not being legalistic as mentioned as I have been there before and left it... and this is one of the first times this has happened... a lot of our elders have retired or moved on and some new ones have taken their place... so perhaps that is part of the change...

As noted by others I wish I knew more as well... not much was shared with the congregation... I wish I understood the intent behind it and just hope that isn't giving heed to a financial contributor and it still bothers me to give into a few over the whole... I just hope this isn't the first domino and more are to follow... I'll continue to pray about it, as I don't see an issue with praying to Jesus as I am still addressing the God head and as noted above a few examples and their are others but I didn't feel the need to write a book.

Thanks again for all the discussion and thoughts and comments and prayers I will check back later and hope to read more for study and understanding.

Slug1
Feb 26th 2016, 03:03 PM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Also I am sure some will mention that we should follow the elders requests... however for discussion sake what about the practice itself, is it wrong or questionable? I have my thoughts but I would rather hear what everyone thinks beforehand for the sake of discussion so I can get peoples unaltered thoughts without mine being a deterrent.

Here is the announcement that was made:

"


The shepherds of this congregation endeavor to serve and lead with certain principles always in the forefront of our minds.

One - fidelity to the Word of God.
Two - maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Recently Mike presented a Sunday morning message focused on the vital importance of worship. His lesson was preceded by an introductory statement from the shepherds in which heavy emphasis was placed on minimizing distractions in the worship service in order to facilitate your personal worship, and to assist your brother by not presenting a distraction to him. We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

In the same vein, the shepherds have observed that our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus instead of to God the Father. For some of you this may seem an unimportant distinction, for others however, this is a very grave matter. Additionally, it seems reasonable to us that if one or two are offended by this practice and speak with us – there are likely others who are also offended yet remain silent.

The shepherds have considered this question at different times over a period of many months. We have consulted scripture and we have discussed the matter with others.

Having done this, it is our judgement that while conceding that each one’s understanding and practice in their personal prayers will differ with their own understanding, in order to show love and deference to all who gather to worship in our assembly, it is most appropriate and expedient for us to refrain from addressing our public prayers in a way that obstructs the worship of any assembled

Therefore, the shepherds ask that those who lead prayer in any of our public assemblies be attentive and sensitive to everyone in the assembly by directing our petitions directly to God, or God the Father and refraining from making petition to Jesus.

The psalmist informs us: “Behold how good and pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell in unity.”
- Ps 133:1

The shepherds thank you for your sensitivity in this matter and we are confident in your desire to serve God while demonstrating your love for the body that meets here.

Thank you."

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and comments.





Seems that as long as Christ makes intercession for us in heaven before the Father, then praying to Him... is expected since this verse would encourage us to give to Jesus, our petitions... Romans 8:34

Also, in many instances of Paul calling out to "Lord" or "praying to" examples in scripture... the term used was: kurios, which refers to Jesus is (the) Lord.

Stephen prayed directly to Jesus as Lord...

Acts 7: 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

always
Feb 26th 2016, 07:03 PM
I want to thank everyone for the discussion and have read through all of it. Some things I might mention I noticed a few noting there was no scripture or questions whether or not there was scripture that addressed praying to Jesus. I didn't really see any responses except for the example of Stephen when he was stoned. So I thought I would share a few passages that mention praying to Jesus...

1st John 5:13-15 "13 These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the boldness that we have toward Him, that if anything we may ask according to his will, He doth hear us,15 and if we have known that He doth hear us, whatever we may ask, we have known that we have the requests that we have requested from Him. (YLT)

1 Tim 1:12 " And I give thanks to him who enabled me -- Christ Jesus our Lord -- that he did reckon me stedfast, having put [me] to the ministration, ..." (YLT)

Another one to consider is 2nd Cor 12:7-9 where Paul requested the Lord to remove his thorn in the flesh. When he gets a response it notes that his grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. What power well rather after that it notes its the power of Christ.

Also at the start of most letters and in the close of most letters we normally see them concluded or started with coming from or going to Christ.

So its seen throughout scripture... and to some of the other comments I have to agree the letter was a little insensitive, and there wasn't a discussion with the congregation to my knowledge, I travel a lot for work and may have missed something but I have ask my wife and other members and it appears this letter was it... so it was a bit cold... and weak as noted. Honestly I started going here due to it not being legalistic as mentioned as I have been there before and left it... and this is one of the first times this has happened... a lot of our elders have retired or moved on and some new ones have taken their place... so perhaps that is part of the change...

As noted by others I wish I knew more as well... not much was shared with the congregation... I wish I understood the intent behind it and just hope that isn't giving heed to a financial contributor and it still bothers me to give into a few over the whole... I just hope this isn't the first domino and more are to follow... I'll continue to pray about it, as I don't see an issue with praying to Jesus as I am still addressing the God head and as noted above a few examples and their are others but I didn't feel the need to write a book.

Thanks again for all the discussion and thoughts and comments and prayers I will check back later and hope to read more for study and understanding.

You sound like a good member!

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 07:22 PM
I want to thank everyone for the discussion and have read through all of it. Some things I might mention I noticed a few noting there was no scripture or questions whether or not there was scripture that addressed praying to Jesus. I didn't really see any responses except for the example of Stephen when he was stoned. So I thought I would share a few passages that mention praying to Jesus...

1st John 5:13-15 "13 These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the boldness that we have toward Him, that if anything we may ask according to his will, He doth hear us,15 and if we have known that He doth hear us, whatever we may ask, we have known that we have the requests that we have requested from Him. (YLT)

1 Tim 1:12 " And I give thanks to him who enabled me -- Christ Jesus our Lord -- that he did reckon me stedfast, having put [me] to the ministration, ..." (YLT)

Another one to consider is 2nd Cor 12:7-9 where Paul requested the Lord to remove his thorn in the flesh. When he gets a response it notes that his grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. What power well rather after that it notes its the power of Christ.

Also at the start of most letters and in the close of most letters we normally see them concluded or started with coming from or going to Christ.

So its seen throughout scripture...
1John 5:13-15 and 2Cor 12:7-9 are not directed to Jesus. 1Tim 1:12 is thanks. Is thanks what the elders were addressing? I doubt it very much because the Lord's prayer and John 16 is where we learn from Jesus how to pray/ask. I've never heard of anyone opposed to worship and thanksgiving towards Jesus, so that would be very odd.

uric3
Feb 26th 2016, 07:50 PM
1John 5:13-15 and 2Cor 12:7-9 are not directed to Jesus. 1Tim 1:12 is thanks. Is thanks what the elders were addressing? I doubt it very much because the Lord's prayer and John 16 is where we learn from Jesus how to pray/ask. I've never heard of anyone opposed to worship and thanksgiving towards Jesus, so that would be very odd.

Noeb,

Thanks for your response, in the account of 1st John I highlighted the words in Bold to show how it was addressing Christ as in the He that is being referred to is the Son Of God that was mentioned at the start of the passage quoted... if not who is the He that hears us and who is the him that we requested to? Perhaps I am missing something but it would appear that those generic he and him refers back to the person mentioned earlier being the Sun of God...

Also you noted no one being opposed to giving thanks towards Jesus... I guess my question to you would be what is prayer? I don't know about you... but my prayers are everything from thanksgiving, to requests for myself and others, etc so how would thanksgiving not be prayer.

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 08:16 PM
Oh, and the start and close of epistles don't ask Jesus either.

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 08:20 PM
The passage in 1 John says in the name of the Son.

ChangedByHim
Feb 26th 2016, 09:07 PM
I don't think that's what the discussion is about..... "our public prayers are on occasion, directed to Jesus"



So "official" (in front of people) prayer is different than "unofficial" (conversing) prayer?

ChangedByHim
Feb 26th 2016, 09:12 PM
The idea that we cannot converse with our Lord and Savior is not only legalistic but non-sensical. When Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father in His name, it's pretty important to understand what "in My name" means. Most think it's just the verbal attachment at the end of a prayer -- kind of like a magic wand to get the prayer through: "in Jesus' name, amen." Jesus is speaking of authority, power of attorney. Asking the Father, just as He asks the Father.

I can hear some of you now... "Oh no! Forgive me Father for speaking to Jesus!" :pray:

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 10:42 PM
So "official" (in front of people) prayer is different than "unofficial" (conversing) prayer?No, why would you ask?

Noeb
Feb 26th 2016, 10:54 PM
The idea that we cannot converse with our Lord and Savior is not only legalistic but non-sensical. When Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father in His name, it's pretty important to understand what "in My name" means. Most think it's just the verbal attachment at the end of a prayer -- kind of like a magic wand to get the prayer through: "in Jesus' name, amen." Jesus is speaking of authority, power of attorney. Asking the Father, just as He asks the Father.

I can hear some of you now... "Oh no! Forgive me Father for speaking to Jesus!" :pray:
I don't recall anyone saying we cannot converse with our Lord and Savior

jaybird
Feb 26th 2016, 11:46 PM
IMO the trinity and who we think Jesus is should not change how we worship. Jesus didnt come to change anything His Father did. how many times does He tell us keep My commands and do the will of My Father. the trinity shouldnt change anything but here we have an example of it changing something. before Jesus taught they prayed to the Father, Jesus prayed to the Father, Jesus taught to pray to the Father. why change anything?

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 03:08 AM
Seems that as long as Christ makes intercession for us in heaven before the Father, then praying to Him... is expected since this verse would encourage us to give to Jesus, our petitions... Romans 8:34Romans 8 says we "have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.", The Spirit is the one doing intercession here, Jesus in Hebrews 7, but why do you think intercession is dependent on our petitions, especially when it says "we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us"? And what prevents Jesus from knowing what we ask the Father. Just not grasping your logic here.



Also, in many instances of Paul calling out to "Lord" or "praying to" examples in scripture... the term used was: kurios, which refers to Jesus is (the) Lord.Does it? Does it always and automatically mean Jesus?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord [kurios], and against his Christ.

ewq1938
Feb 27th 2016, 03:15 AM
Does it? Does it always and automatically mean Jesus?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord [kurios], and against his Christ.

Paul didn't write Acts. Paul tends to use Lord for Christ in his writings.

1Co_6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 03:15 AM
IMO the trinity and who we think Jesus is should not change how we worship. Jesus didnt come to change anything His Father did. how many times does He tell us keep My commands and do the will of My Father. the trinity shouldnt change anything but here we have an example of it changing something. before Jesus taught they prayed to the Father, Jesus prayed to the Father, Jesus taught to pray to the Father. why change anything?Excellent point, but unfortunately the majority think Jesus changed a lot that he didn't, making it easy to not see his instruction on prayer.

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 03:20 AM
Paul didn't write Acts. Paul tends to use Lord for Christ in his writings.

1Co_6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.Didn't say he did. What's your point? Tends? That's your argument? That when Paul said kurios he tends to mean Jesus? I didn't say Paul didn't call Jesus kurios. Should we assume Paul ment Jesus when he said kurios in 2Co 12:8 because someone decided to print part of verse 9 in red?

Slug1
Feb 27th 2016, 03:52 AM
Romans 8 says we "have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.", The Spirit is the one doing intercession here, Jesus in Hebrews 7, but why do you think intercession is dependent on our petitions, especially when it says "we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us"? And what prevents Jesus from knowing what we ask the Father. Just not grasping your logic here.


Does it? Does it always and automatically mean Jesus?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord [kurios], and against his Christ.I stated that kurios means Jesus is (the) Lord in many references when Paul is praying. I never said it's exclusive. Just showing that when Paul references his own prayers, SOME are to Jesus.

As for the Romans 8, there is much in the lesson, you pointing out a part of the lesson concerning the Holy Spirit. I pointed out a portion of the lesson concerning how Jesus intercedes for us and how these petitions can be initiated by a "Christian" calling upon... kurios, for help... JUST as Paul does.

The point being... there are many lessons how one aught to pray but there are NONE preventing praying to Jesus.

Churches like to CONTROL... and that letter is a perfect example of control.

Slug1
Feb 27th 2016, 03:54 AM
I don't recall anyone saying we cannot converse with our Lord and SaviorThat letter to a congregation sure dictates that those in that church... CAN'T while service is held.

ewq1938
Feb 27th 2016, 04:08 AM
Didn't say he did. What's your point? Tends? That's your argument? That when Paul said kurios he tends to mean Jesus?

Yes. That is the way Paul uses the term when he says God and then Lord it is usually if not always Lord as in Jesus. When speaking of the Father he uses God. Some think this means Paul didn't think Jesus was God but that's a false assumption and not relevant to this topic but I wanted to mention how Paul tends to use certain terms for the Father and for Jesus.



I didn't say Paul didn't call Jesus kurios. Should we assume Paul ment Jesus when he said kurios in 2Co 12:8 because someone decided to print part of verse 9 in red?

Context tells us who Paul meant there.

Reynolds357
Feb 27th 2016, 04:37 AM
Churches like to CONTROL... and that letter is a perfect example of control.

Unfortunately that is all too true.

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 06:25 AM
I stated that kurios means Jesus is (the) Lord in many references when Paul is praying. I never said it's exclusive. Just showing that when Paul references his own prayers, SOME are to Jesus.The last half says "the term used was: kurios, which refers to Jesus is (the) Lord."



As for the Romans 8, there is much in the lesson, you pointing out a part of the lesson concerning the Holy Spirit. I pointed out a portion of the lesson concerning how Jesus intercedes for usAgain, that's not in Romans 8.



and how these petitions can be initiatedHuh?



The point being... there are many lessons how one aught to pray but there are NONE preventing praying to Jesus.There are none teaching praying to Jesus.



Churches like to CONTROL...So very true.



and that letter is a perfect example of control.There's no way to avoid the accusation. It's often true and often not. Kinda makes it pointless to say in this situation.


That letter to a congregation sure dictates that those in that church... CAN'T while service is held.Where?
.

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 06:44 AM
Yes. That is the way Paul uses the term when he says God and then Lord it is usually if not always Lord as in Jesus. When speaking of the Father he uses God. Some think this means Paul didn't think Jesus was God but that's a false assumption and not relevant to this topic but I wanted to mention how Paul tends to use certain terms for the Father and for Jesus.

Context tells us who Paul meant there.I don't know how you'd justify Lord always being restricted to Jesus.
So how does the context tell you it's Jesus in that passage?

ewq1938
Feb 27th 2016, 06:56 AM
I don't know how you'd justify Lord always being restricted to Jesus.

I didn't say always but most for sure, possibly always (in Paul's writings I am talking about) but I'd have to check each use.



So how does the context tell you it's Jesus in that passage?

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

This power of Christ resting upon him is Christ's grace mentioned in verse 9

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

He is clearly talking about Christ in these verses.

Moose
Feb 27th 2016, 08:40 AM
Wow, after reading through these comments, i can't help but notice how rapid the 'church' is falling:

There is nothing like praying to the Father directly-

Isaiah 59:1-2 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear. 2But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

It is for this reason that Jesus came - to reconcile us (sinners) to God.
God is holy and there's no way He can interact with a sinner(man) unless via Jesus

John 6:46 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Theses verses above should close this discussion- No one knows the Father except the son who is the bossom of the Father. The opposite is also true that the the Father knows no one (sees everyone as sinners) except the one who has sealed us by the spirit and is from the bossom/heart of men.

The person who thinks can pray to the Father directly is by no means better that a man who prays to a curving/ piece of wood.

Prayers, like worship, is induced by God's spirit in us, He leads us into asking/praying and He will always lead us to ask within the will of the Father because He is from the bossom of the Father and He knows the Father- This is what we call asking in the name of Jesus (Name= authority). It is not the words "in the name of Jesus" that people usually use but asking in the authority of Jesus is always asking within the will of God.

The Lord's prayer does not take away the authority of Jesus, Jesus is the will of God because He is everything that comes form God.

Our Father, who at in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy will be done

The above (underlined) is the authority of Jesus. If any one disputes this, let them tell me the name that is being talked of here- there's only one name in heaven and on the earth and down under....

watchinginawe
Feb 27th 2016, 01:50 PM
Long story short where I attend Church the Elders made an announcement about praying to Jesus which is posted below. I never gave it much thought honestly, but before seeing the announcement I never thought about it or would have considered it wrong... after this announcement it has raised a lot of questions in my mind about it in various aspects. So what better way to study this than to bring it up with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me know your thoughts on the letter below. Hello uric3, this is a very interesting thread starter, but I am also sure that this is a bit more personal for you and the ones you worship with in real life.

Two things come to my mind. First, this seems a kind of "Oneness" thing. They are very careful about Jesus being God Incarnate on Earth and not in Heaven. If I were counseling your Elders, I would encourage consideration of what it is exactly that they are asking the congregation to believe as a result of the practice. If surely informs, and I don't think the main point is just "don't offend the weaker brother/sister".

The second thing is probably more important. This kind of thing is divisive and I believe your Elders should rescind the request. The reason is that even if there is any validity to either or both arguments, the reasoning will be based on narrow theological technicalities which will have almost nothing to do with the congregants from the new believer to the most mature. We have one of the greatest of examples in history with the "Great Schism" and the Filoque controversy. It really isn't even worth it to explain the technical difference here in the forum, the issue just isn't one really contemplated by the Protestant believer in their practice of Christianity.

We aren't to be "Of uric3", or "Of watchinginawe", but surely we are to be "Of Jesus". I suspect there is more at work here and I hope the Congregation can get past it. Looks like a tough spot.

watchinginawe
Feb 27th 2016, 02:01 PM
IMO the trinity and who we think Jesus is should not change how we worship. Jesus didnt come to change anything His Father did. how many times does He tell us keep My commands and do the will of My Father. the trinity shouldnt change anything but here we have an example of it changing something. before Jesus taught they prayed to the Father, Jesus prayed to the Father, Jesus taught to pray to the Father. why change anything?

Are you suggesting that we should be under the Law? This absolutely makes no sense. Jesus HAS/IS come, the Holy Ghost HAS/IS been given freely among humanity. These are major revelations of God intended to change things on our end, to change our approach to God, frankly to change the whole game. Things have changed for us for sure. It made/makes a difference, no? Was Jesus just merely pointing us back to the way? Or is Jesus the way Himself?

ChangedByHim
Feb 27th 2016, 02:21 PM
I don't recall anyone saying we cannot converse with our Lord and Savior

So conversation with the Lord is not prayer?

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 03:30 PM
So conversation with the Lord is not prayer?Again, is asking in the Lord's prayer and John 16:23-28 a conversation?

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 04:51 PM
Wow, after reading through these comments, i can't help but notice how rapid the 'church' is falling:What comments have caused you to make this statement? :confused


There is nothing like praying to the Father directly-

Isaiah 59:1-2 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear. 2But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

It is for this reason that Jesus came - to reconcile us (sinners) to God.
God is holy and there's no way He can interact with a sinner(man) unless via Jesus

John 6:46 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Theses verses above should close this discussion- No one knows the Father except the son who is the bossom of the Father. The opposite is also true that the the Father knows no one (sees everyone as sinners) except the one who has sealed us by the spirit and is from the bossom/heart of men.

The person who thinks can pray to the Father directly is by no means better that a man who prays to a curving/ piece of wood.

Prayers, like worship, is induced by God's spirit in us, He leads us into asking/praying and He will always lead us to ask within the will of the Father because He is from the bossom of the Father and He knows the Father- This is what we call asking in the name of Jesus (Name= authority). It is not the words "in the name of Jesus" that people usually use but asking in the authority of Jesus is always asking within the will of God.

The Lord's prayer does not take away the authority of Jesus, Jesus is the will of God because He is everything that comes form God.

Our Father, who at in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy will be done

The above (underlined) is the authority of Jesus. If any one disputes this, let them tell me the name that is being talked of here- there's only one name in heaven and on the earth and down under....
Where/who has removed Jesus' name and attempted to bypass the way, truth, and life and go straight to the Father? :confused

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 04:58 PM
I didn't say always but most for sure, possibly always (in Paul's writings I am talking about) but I'd have to check each use.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

This power of Christ resting upon him is Christ's grace mentioned in verse 9

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

He is clearly talking about Christ in these verses.Grace is also God's grace through Jesus in scripture. You're doing the same thing uric3 did in 1John 5. Finding 'Jesus' and applying everything in the passage to him.

jaybird
Feb 27th 2016, 05:46 PM
Are you suggesting that we should be under the Law? This absolutely makes no sense. Jesus HAS/IS come, the Holy Ghost HAS/IS been given freely among humanity. These are major revelations of God intended to change things on our end, to change our approach to God, frankly to change the whole game. Things have changed for us for sure. It made/makes a difference, no? Was Jesus just merely pointing us back to the way? Or is Jesus the way Himself?

im saying Jesus didnt undo anything His Father did. He proclaimed to the people He did not come to abolish the laws, prophets and writings. any thing that looks like change IMO would be Jesus bringing people back to where they should have been in the first place. the people had changed but not the will of the Father.

Slug1
Feb 27th 2016, 06:16 PM
Again, that's not in Romans 8.
Let me post it so we can discuss it...

v34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.


There are none teaching praying to Jesus.Well, Stephen prayed to Jesus, Paul prayed (alot) to Jesus... were they wrong? Inquiring minds want to know :P :lol:

I will say this, if they were wrong... then I am wrong but based on those many scriptures and examples we have through the Word and how some prayed, I will continue to be wrong... with them :)

Also... Jesus never taught how to cast demons out or heal either, but we have examples of Jesus and many disciples doing it :P

Are you saying we can't do that because He never taught us to do it?

It is BY EXAMPLE, the lesson is TAUGHT!!!!

Just as the lesson is taught by the examples given to us through Stephen, Paul, etc.

ChangedByHim
Feb 27th 2016, 07:13 PM
Again, is asking in the Lord's prayer and John 16:23-28 a conversation?

Is that the only prayer instruction in the Bible?

A conversation is when two or more people are talking/listening. I don't know about your prayer life, but mine is a dialogue not a monologue.

Noeb
Feb 27th 2016, 08:24 PM
you didn't answer the question CBH

ewq1938
Feb 27th 2016, 10:40 PM
Finding 'Jesus' and applying everything in the passage to him.

Paul speaks of him 3 times within 3 verses so it's not like I am inserting Jesus where he doesn't belong. Lord here is clearly Jesus.

ChangedByHim
Feb 28th 2016, 01:04 AM
you didn't answer the question CBH

In fact they are conversations. When I ask him for His will to be done (Lord's prayer), I expect and receive the voice of the Lord in return. I don't pray to a dead idol like pagans do, but a living God.

watchinginawe
Feb 28th 2016, 01:12 AM
im saying Jesus didnt undo anything His Father did. He proclaimed to the people He did not come to abolish the laws, prophets and writings. any thing that looks like change IMO would be Jesus bringing people back to where they should have been in the first place. the people had changed but not the will of the Father.

jaybird, we know that Jesus provided the New Testament in His blood. Sacrifices have ceased, human intercessors as in the Priesthood have ceased. The promise of the Father, the Holy Ghost, is given. Gentiles were never before where they should have been in the first place. The whole ballgame changed for us in Jesus Christ. I guess I just don't understand your point.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 03:17 AM
Let me post it so we can discuss it...

v34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Thanks. I was thinking further up and forgot about that. You didn't answer "how these petitions can be initiated" "why do you think intercession is dependent on our petitions, especially when it says "we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us"?"



Well, Stephen prayed to Jesus,Is it asking in the Lord's prayer and John 16 sense? Seems entirely different to me.



Paul prayed (alot) to JesusNo he did not. He prayed to God and God the Father.



I will say this, if they were wrong... then I am wrong but based on those many scripturesMany? There's only been a few put forth Slug1.



Also... Jesus never taught how to cast demons out or heal eitherWhat do you mean either? He taught how to pray Slug1.



Are you saying we can't do that because He never taught us to do it?He did teach how to pray.

jaybird
Feb 28th 2016, 03:17 AM
jaybird, we know that Jesus provided the New Testament in His blood. Sacrifices have ceased, human intercessors as in the Priesthood have ceased. The promise of the Father, the Holy Ghost, is given. Gentiles were never before where they should have been in the first place. The whole ballgame changed for us in Jesus Christ. I guess I just don't understand your point.

i dont think there are any teachings of Jesus telling the people from now on we are going to do it different than my Father instructed.
IMO things today are much like when Jesus was doing His minister. people want to take the scriptures and twist them into what ever they want to hear. the church today is nothing like the church Jesus and the 12 started and i think people need to ask why rather than pat each other on the back.
i am not accusing you personally of doing these things but the church in general.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 03:19 AM
Paul speaks of him 3 times within 3 verses so it's not like I am inserting Jesus where he doesn't belong. Lord here is clearly Jesus."My grace" is where you are inserting.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 03:22 AM
In fact they are conversations. When I ask him for His will to be done (Lord's prayer), I expect and receive the voice of the Lord in return. I don't pray to a dead idol like pagans do, but a living God.
Not what John 16 is talking about. Jesus didn't say you can have a conversation. He said you can have what you ask for.

ewq1938
Feb 28th 2016, 03:26 AM
"My grace" is where you are inserting.

That's based on the full context....clearly an answer from Christ. Does Paul even ever use Lord for anyone else than the Father?

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/jesus-is-god/can-we-pray-to-jesus/


Paul also prayed to Jesus when he “besought the Lord” to remove his thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:8). Why do we believe that the reference to “the Lord” here refers to Jesus instead of the Father? In the Pauline epistles, the term “Lord” (kurios) usually signifies Jesus,6 while “God” usually denotes to the Father. And look at the response of Paul when the Lord said to him, “[My] strength is made perfect in your weakness” (2 Corinthians 12:9). Paul tells us that he would glory in his weakness that the “power of Christ” (the Lord) would be revealed in him. So the referent for “the Lord” is Jesus. Paul prayed to Jesus, and Jesus responded. Notice that these were prayers of petition, not praise. These were not spontaneous petitions or petitions given in response to the voice of the Lord or a vision, but a prayer prayed three times, as Paul persisted in his request to Jesus. If it were inappropriate for someone to offer supplication to Jesus, Paul would not have asked Jesus three times to answer a specific request. Jesus did not rebuke Paul for praying the prayer, but He did inform Paul that he was better off without the request being granted.

jaybird
Feb 28th 2016, 04:19 AM
Well, Stephen prayed to Jesus, Paul prayed (alot) to Jesus... were they wrong? Inquiring minds want to know :P :lol

where does Paul pray to Jesus? im looking and cant find it. not saying yopur wrong, he has a bunch of prayers and i may have over looked it. from what i am seeing they are all mostly like the prayer in romans 1 8 which is exactly like what Jesus taught:
8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you 10 always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God’s will I may now at last succeed in coming to you."

what Stephen said is interesting, he was for sure talking to Jesus and the Father is not mentioned. one thing to consider, he was seconds away from dying and in distress. makes me think of something i was taught when i was a kid. i was told if i was in danger, about to die or facing a demon, i could call out to Jesus to save me, that i didnt have to pray, just scream out the name it self, Jesus!, and that this was taught in the bible. i can speak for myself and many others that this works in those times of distress.

Suitor
Feb 28th 2016, 05:56 AM
where does Paul pray to Jesus? im looking and cant find it. not saying yopur wrong, he has a bunch of prayers and i may have over looked it. from what i am seeing they are all mostly like the prayer in romans 1 8 which is exactly like what Jesus taught:
8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you 10 always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God’s will I may now at last succeed in coming to you."

what Stephen said is interesting, he was for sure talking to Jesus and the Father is not mentioned. one thing to consider, he was seconds away from dying and in distress. makes me think of something i was taught when i was a kid. i was told if i was in danger, about to die or facing a demon, i could call out to Jesus to save me, that i didnt have to pray, just scream out the name it self, Jesus!, and that this was taught in the bible. i can speak for myself and many others that this works in those times of distress.

I pray to the Father and to Jesus. I have had no problems either way.

Slug1
Feb 28th 2016, 06:16 AM
where does Paul pray to Jesus? im looking and cant find it. not saying yopur wrong, he has a bunch of prayers and i may have over looked it. from what i am seeing they are all mostly like the prayer in romans 1 8 which is exactly like what Jesus taught:
8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you 10 always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God’s will I may now at last succeed in coming to you."

what Stephen said is interesting, he was for sure talking to Jesus and the Father is not mentioned. one thing to consider, he was seconds away from dying and in distress. makes me think of something i was taught when i was a kid. i was told if i was in danger, about to die or facing a demon, i could call out to Jesus to save me, that i didnt have to pray, just scream out the name it self, Jesus!, and that this was taught in the bible. i can speak for myself and many others that this works in those times of distress.One of the better known prayers to Jesus (kerios) is 2 Cor 12:8. Paul asked "Jesus" (Lord or kerios) THREE time to remove the thorn.

Then verse 9-10 proves he was praying to Christ.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 07:39 AM
That's based on the full context....clearly an answer from Christ.How so? Why can't "Lord" and "my" be God or the Father? That "the power of Christ" and "for Christ's sake" is mentioned does not demand "Lord" and "my" be selective of Jesus.

Rom_1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co_1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co_1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal_1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph_1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php_1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col_1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th_1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th_2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
1Ti_1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2Ti_1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tit_1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Phm_1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Jn_1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 07:54 AM
what Stephen said is interesting, he was for sure talking to Jesus and the Father is not mentioned. one thing to consider, he was seconds away from dying and in distress. makes me think of something i was taught when i was a kid. i was told if i was in danger, about to die or facing a demon, i could call out to Jesus to save me, that i didnt have to pray, just scream out the name it self, Jesus!, and that this was taught in the bible. i can speak for myself and many others that this works in those times of distress.I've done the same in car accidents. No time for discourse. Definitely works. I was doing 50 mph through an intersection when a van ran their red light. I yelled Jesus! My hands and feet were removed from the steering wheel and pedals, I was push back into the seat and held down, my truck defied the laws of physics and gravity and was moved around the van, put back straight on the road, I was released from the seat and my hands and feet were placed back on the steering wheel and pedals.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 07:59 AM
where does Paul pray to Jesus?
Here's a prayer from Paul....It is addressed to the Father and like 2Cor 12 it mentions the grace and power of God through Jesus, so I don't know why some require the prayer in 2Cor 12 address Jesus specifically.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

ewq1938
Feb 28th 2016, 08:34 AM
How so? Why can't "Lord" and "my" be God or the Father? That "the power of Christ" and "for Christ's sake" is mentioned does not demand "Lord" and "my" be selective of Jesus.

Rom_1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co_1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co_1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal_1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph_1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php_1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col_1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th_1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th_2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
1Ti_1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2Ti_1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tit_1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Phm_1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Jn_1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.


You only prove my position...Jesus is Lord in Paul's writings.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 08:47 AM
You only prove my position...Jesus is Lord in Paul's writings.We've already been here. Always? You wanna change it to always now?

ewq1938
Feb 28th 2016, 08:53 AM
We've already been here. Always? You wanna change it to always now?

It has been established that Lord is used by Paul concerning Christ. Always? I already said I know it is mostly, not always. Why do you say always?

If it isn't always, show that it isn't and show why it even matters that it isn't always.

ChangedByHim
Feb 28th 2016, 01:00 PM
Not what John 16 is talking about. Jesus didn't say you can have a conversation. He said you can have what you ask for.

Yes, if you'll go back to my earlier post you'll see what it means to ask in His name.

None of that answers my question to you about if having a conversation with God constitutes prayer. It's yes or no.

Slug1
Feb 28th 2016, 03:05 PM
Here's a prayer from Paul....It is addressed to the Father and like 2Cor 12 it mentions the grace and power of God through Jesus, so I don't know why some require the prayer in 2Cor 12 address Jesus specifically.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Noeb, I pointed out a prayer by Paul which is addressed directly to Jesus. In the example, we see dialog, just as CbH points out that prayer isn't a one way street when praying. We don't "talk to" God when we pray, we are speaking WITH God when we pray. Based on MANY examples, one's you seem to ignore so you can stand firm in that "you" are not allowed to, or are NOT supposed to pray to Jesus, we find some praying TO Jesus or Lord (as you did when you almost was in a wreck), and we find some praying to the Father or God.

Well, since we have examples of people praying to Jesus, many Christians followed suit and scripture cannot be used against them for doing so. To use some scripture to say a person CAN'T pray with Jesus (while ignoring scripture that proves we can pray to Jesus) is classic control or worse, legalism in a pure form.

The lessons we have in scripture are two fold... pray to the Father (God referenced in some scriptures as examples) or pray to Jesus (Lord referenced in the scriptures as examples).

jaybird
Feb 28th 2016, 04:08 PM
One of the better known prayers to Jesus (kerios) is 2 Cor 12:8. Paul asked "Jesus" (Lord or kerios) THREE time to remove the thorn.

Then verse 9-10 proves he was praying to Christ.

is it not possible that paul prayed to the Father (Lord) and was answered by the Son (He). also you have all the rest of pauls prayers, and there are many, and most all of them are addressed to the Father in the name of the Son.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 05:44 PM
It has been established that Lord is used by Paul concerning Christ. Always? I already said I know it is mostly, not always. Why do you say always?

If it isn't always, show that it isn't and show why it even matters that it isn't always.Since it's not always and 2Cor 12 doesn't specify Jesus, where's another example?

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 06:18 PM
Yes, if you'll go back to my earlier post you'll see what it means to ask in His name.What does that tell me? To ask Jesus in Jesus' name? Where does anyone ask Jesus in Jesus name in scripture? No where! In post #57 you start by saying;
"The idea that we cannot converse with our Lord and Savior is not only legalistic but non-sensical."

but then tell us to ask the Father, not Jesus, as Jesus did;
"When Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father in His name, it's pretty important to understand what "in My name" means. Most think it's just the verbal attachment at the end of a prayer -- kind of like a magic wand to get the prayer through: "in Jesus' name, amen." Jesus is speaking of authority, power of attorney. Asking the Father, just as He asks the Father. "

So do you wanna talk about having a conversation with Jesus, or asking the Father? When something was asked for, instruction and every instance in scripture has the Father being asked, not Jesus. Just as you have stated.



None of that answers my question to you about if having a conversation with God constitutes prayer. It's yes or no.I have answered yes several times, pointing out it is not the question at hand, so what a conversation with Jesus has to do with asking the Father as instructed and given example by Jesus, I'm not sure. So please show us where anyone asked Jesus in Jesus' name in scripture. Jesus was asked by what authority he did and said things. In the name of Jesus is 'power of attorney' but that doesn't automatically exclude saying the phrase. Scripture has it used both ways, by saying the phrase and acting in his character and authority. Historically we know this is true from early church writings as well.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 06:32 PM
Noeb, I pointed out a prayer by Paul which is addressed directly to Jesus.in your opinion. The text does not say so.



In the example, we see dialogand this is important why? Are you saying we can't dialogue with God and only Jesus?



Based on MANY examplesTwo has been put forth, not many. I said this already, so if you wanna keep repeating it, you need to provided scripture for the many. There's a reason no one has done so. They don't exist.



one's you seem to ignoreI have addressed every single one, in fact I'm the one that first put up Stephen, so your posturing is only discrediting your post and position.



so you can stand firm in that "you" are not allowed to, or are NOT supposed to pray to JesusWhat did Jesus teach Slug1? To ask him or the Father? He said he would not ask for us. Do you not understand this? Not believe it? Too hard of a saying for you? It means don't ask him expecting him to ask the Father for you. You go directly to the Father and ask him. This is why I asked you to detail your vague opinion given on intercession, because it seemed you were contradicting what Jesus said. The Spirit's and Jesus' interceding is not dependent on our asking, else what he said in John 16 is a contradiction, and it is not.



we find some praying TO Jesus or Lord (as you did when you almost was in a wreck)Again, that's not the same thing as asking in the Lord's prayer and John 16, and no, we don't find anyone praying to Jesus in this way.



Well, since we have examples of people praying to Jesus, many Christians followed suit and scripture cannot be used against them for doing so. To use some scripture to say a person CAN'T pray with Jesus (while ignoring scripture that proves we can pray to Jesus) is classic control or worse, legalism in a pure form.It's called following scripture and Jesus' instruction. If that's legalism then I am guilty.



The lessons we have in scripture are two fold... pray to the Father (God referenced in some scriptures as examples) or pray to Jesus (Lord referenced in the scriptures as examples).Not 2Cor 12.

Slug1
Feb 28th 2016, 07:13 PM
in your opinion. The text does not say so.No opinion. When a person studies the Greek terms used by Paul to ensure it is understood who he is praying too, "the Lord", the only conclusion is Jesus based on the defining of term(s) used and to concluding verses 9-10.



and this is important why? Are you saying we can't dialogue with God and only Jesus?No. The only "can't" so far in this thread is saying people "can't" pray to Jesus.



Two has been put forth, not many. I said this already, so if you wanna keep repeating it, you need to provided scripture for the many. There's a reason no one has done so. They don't exist.Sorry Noeb, all I have to do is see examples provided and I can post more, but 1, 2, 10 more won't be enough.



I have addressed every single one, in fact I'm the one that first put up Stephen, so your posturing is only discrediting your post and position.No, that scripture is to support praying to Jesus... is ok.



What did Jesus teach Slug1? To ask him or the Father? He said he would not ask for us. Do you not understand this? Not believe it? Too hard of a saying for you? It means don't ask him expecting him to ask the Father for you. You go directly to the Father and ask him. This is why I asked you to detail your vague opinion given on intercession, because it seemed you were contradicting what Jesus said. The Spirit's and Jesus' interceding is not dependent on our asking, else what he said in John 16 is a contradiction, and it is not.Teachings are two-fold. Lessons and examples. We have enough examples of people praying to Jesus to prevent anyone from being forbidden from praying to Jesus.



Again, that's not the same thing as asking in the Lord's prayer and John 16, and no, we don't find anyone praying to Jesus in this way.By the example of Stephen and Paul... we do.



It's called following scripture and Jesus' instruction. If that's legalism then I am guilty.No... preventing a Christian from following the Word of God, with the intention to control HOW a Christian is following Jesus, is legalism.

You are not prevented from praying to God only. The Body is also not prevented from praying to Jesus... but if they are, and the reason is as you state (John 16), then that is a form of controlling HOW the Body is to pray.

Let me put it to you this way... would you tell Stephen, or Paul that they should not pray to Jesus?


Not 2Cor 12.Again, all I can ask is that you open Greek lexicons and study the verses and determine who Paul is praying to when he asks that the thorn be removed.

Slug1
Feb 28th 2016, 07:15 PM
is it not possible that paul prayed to the Father (Lord) and was answered by the Son (He). also you have all the rest of pauls prayers, and there are many, and most all of them are addressed to the Father in the name of the Son.The best way to sort it all out is to study the Greek terms used when Paul address "God" or "Lord". Many of the Lord references, is about Jesus and the "God" references are concerning the Father.

Noeb
Feb 28th 2016, 07:55 PM
No opinion. When a person studies the Greek terms used by Paul to ensure it is understood who he is praying too, "the Lord", the only conclusion is Jesus based on the defining of term(s) used and to concluding verses 9-10.Went through this already. He used the term when not specifying Jesus so, what now?



No. The only "can't" so far in this thread is saying people "can't" pray to Jesus.No one has said we can't converse with Jesus Slug1. We are talking about "asking" in the Lord's prayer, and John 16, which you have refused to address and accept.



Sorry Noeb, all I have to do is see examples provided and I can post more, but 1, 2, 10 more won't be enough.You can't be sorry. Post more. You can't. Only two has been put forth and both explained. If there were any, just one, in the Lord's prayer/John 16 asking sense, we wouldn't be here, in fact, this thread would not have even been posted because the elders would not have written the letter, because some would not have learned from Jesus how to ask from the Father and not him because he will not ask the Father for us.



No, that scripture is to support praying to Jesus... is ok.He didn't ask for anything in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense.



Teachings are two-fold. Lessons and examples. We have enough examples of people praying to JesusWhere is one of anyone asking in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense, contradicting the Lord's prayer/John 16?



No... preventing a Christian from following the Word of God, with the intention to control HOW a Christian is following Jesus, is legalism.No one has done this.



You are not prevented from praying to God only.You need to accept the words of Jesus in the Lord's prayer/John 16. He didn't say to ask the Father and not him because he won't do it for you then not follow through.



The Body is also not prevented from praying to Jesus... but if they are, and the reason is as you state (John 16), then that is a form of controlling HOW the Body is to pray.Jesus can dictate how his Body asks. Is he legalistic?



Let me put it to you this way... would you tell Stephen, or Paul that they should not pray to Jesus?I don't need to, Jesus did, and they did not disobey him.



Again, all I can ask is that you open Greek lexicons and study the verses and determine who Paul is praying to when he asks that the thorn be removed.Again, you can cry "Greek!" but it doesn't help you here.

ewq1938
Feb 29th 2016, 01:04 AM
Since it's not always and 2Cor 12 doesn't specify Jesus, where's another example?

It does specify Jesus in context...

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/jesus-is-god/can-we-pray-to-jesus/

There are other examples here. I recommend reading this.

Slug1
Feb 29th 2016, 01:39 AM
Went through this already. He used the term when not specifying Jesus so, what now?Amen. But the term IS used to specify Jesus... so now what :lol:



No one has said we can't converse with Jesus Slug1. We are talking about "asking" in the Lord's prayer, and John 16, which you have refused to address and accept.I'm not refusing anything. The Lord's Prayer is very important as not all praying is DONE only to Jesus.



You can't be sorry. Post more. You can't. Only two has been put forth and both explained. If there were any, just one, in the Lord's prayer/John 16 asking sense, we wouldn't be here, in fact, this thread would not have even been posted because the elders would not have written the letter, because some would not have learned from Jesus how to ask from the Father and not him because he will not ask the Father for us.If I take the time to post others, then what?

Edit: I'm gonna add this to the mix and see if you are willing to help yourself understand. Do a Greek study of Acts 8:22 and see who you can determine that Peter is telling Simon to pray to... :)

If you determine who it is and admit to who Peter is informing Simon "Who" he needs to pray too... I'll add more. In the end, you will have more than 1 or 2 scriptures showing us that others, not just Stephen or Paul prayed to Jesus.

END EDIT:

Paul asked Jesus 3 times to remove the thorn. A point of this is that he kept praying to Jesus until Jesus answered. It is prudent for Christians to do the same when seeking a solution from Jesus.



He didn't ask for anything in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense.OK. I agree. The Lord's prayer isn't the ONLY way to pray... it's an example of how to pray. We have other examples as well throughout the scriptures.



Where is one of anyone asking in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense, contradicting the Lord's prayer/John 16?If I understand your question... I have to ask, is a purpose of the example of the Lord's prayer a means to limit our prayers? As if to actually teach the Body that this is the ONLY way to pray? If so, then many disciples, to include Paul as an Apostle sure broke the example.

So to answer you... Praying to Jesus IS praying to God. Just as listening to the Holy Spirit, is listening to God.



No one has done this.When a person says that anyone in their church can't pray to Jesus during a service, it is being done.



You need to accept the words of Jesus in the Lord's prayer/John 16. He didn't say to ask the Father and not him because he won't do it for you then not follow through.Ya know, you are beginning to be confusing.



Jesus can dictate how his Body asks. Is he legalistic?No. My comment was in relation to church leadership controlling who church members pray to.



I don't need to, Jesus did, and they did not disobey him.OK, again, you are sounding confusing.



Again, you can cry "Greek!" but it doesn't help you here.Well, all I can say is study the terms in the Greek and see if you conclude Paul was NOT praying to Jesus in the scriptures I referenced ;)

jaybird
Feb 29th 2016, 02:41 PM
It does specify Jesus in context...

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/jesus-is-god/can-we-pray-to-jesus/

There are other examples here. I recommend reading this.

it specifies Lord.

those links have what stephen said but no other examples.

Slug1
Feb 29th 2016, 04:01 PM
it specifies Lord.The term Paul used in the Greek was kerios, so for some of the scriptures detailing his praying "to" the Lord, Lord means, Jesus is (the) Lord.

So in those cases where the word in English is "Lord", which is not all, but is some of the cases where he is praying, it is to Jesus

jaybird
Feb 29th 2016, 06:24 PM
The term Paul used in the Greek was kerios, so for some of the scriptures detailing his praying "to" the Lord, Lord means, Jesus is (the) Lord.

So in those cases where the word in English is "Lord", which is not all, but is some of the cases where he is praying, it is to Jesus

but you could just as easily say that being as all of his other prayers were addressed to the Father, then paul meant Father.

ChangedByHim
Feb 29th 2016, 07:03 PM
What does that tell me? To ask Jesus in Jesus' name? Where does anyone ask Jesus in Jesus name in scripture? No where! In post #57 you start by saying;
"The idea that we cannot converse with our Lord and Savior is not only legalistic but non-sensical."

but then tell us to ask the Father, not Jesus, as Jesus did;
"When Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father in His name, it's pretty important to understand what "in My name" means. Most think it's just the verbal attachment at the end of a prayer -- kind of like a magic wand to get the prayer through: "in Jesus' name, amen." Jesus is speaking of authority, power of attorney. Asking the Father, just as He asks the Father. "

So do you wanna talk about having a conversation with Jesus, or asking the Father? When something was asked for, instruction and every instance in scripture has the Father being asked, not Jesus. Just as you have stated.

Are the words of Jesus not enough for you?

John 15:16 Whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 16:23 23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.

You are constantly arguing against Scripture.



I have answered yes several times, pointing out it is not the question at hand, so what a conversation with Jesus has to do with asking the Father as instructed and given example by Jesus, I'm not sure. So please show us where anyone asked Jesus in Jesus' name in scripture. Jesus was asked by what authority he did and said things. In the name of Jesus is 'power of attorney' but that doesn't automatically exclude saying the phrase. Scripture has it used both ways, by saying the phrase and acting in his character and authority. Historically we know this is true from early church writings as well.

So...
Conversation with God is prayer...
Conversation with Jesus is acceptable...
One may not pray to Jesus.

Ok.......... you're about as clear as always.

:B

jaybird
Feb 29th 2016, 07:21 PM
Are the words of Jesus not enough for you?

John 15:16 Whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 16:23 23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.

You are constantly arguing against Scripture.

no, he is trying to up hold what Jesus said and not add to what Jesus said. and both scriptures you posted you have Jesus instructing pray to the Father which is exactly what noeb is trying to say. in Jesus name does not change who the prayer is addressed to.

Slug1
Feb 29th 2016, 07:25 PM
but you could just as easily say that being as all of his other prayers were addressed to the Father, then paul meant Father.As with the lives of Christians today, praying to either Father, or Jesus is done. As Paul did. Sure, he prayed to the Father and he also prayed to Jesus and the distinction is found in the verses "if" you study the terms used when writing his letters.

Same as worship to... Do we worship God? Just the Father? Just Jesus? Just the Holy Spirit? When you look at hymns and song through the ages, worship is lifted up to God, right? Well, some worship over those same ages is lifted up to the Father, some to Jesus, and some to the Holy Spirit. Yet, the worship that make a distinction of the Father, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, is it wrong to lift up worship/praise to the Holy Spirit? Or praise/worship to only Jesus?

Not to many will say NO.

Just this morning on the way to work and listening to KLOVE, the song (version of) "Holy Spirit" by Francesca Battistelli. Here is a song singling out and worshiping the Holy Spirit. So while my daughter is telling me to raise up the volume, I'm thinking about this thread :rolleyes:

Anyway, all the prayers where Paul makes a distinction about the Father, then we can all agree that Paul is praying to the Father.

Then why does that mean where he makes distinction about Jesus as the one he's praying too... some DON'T want to agree that Paul is praying to Jesus? :hmm:

Let me ask it this way... if a Christian never experienced "church" and just read the Bible and found Jesus explaining an example of prayer, also making sure that when we pray, to do it at a minimum in His name. Then, we have examples of prayer throughout the NT where some pray directly to Jesus as both Stephen and Paul. Plus Paul making specific prayer to both the Father and Jesus and even made distinction as to who he was praying too... would this Christian have a problem with doing the SAME?

Golgotha
Feb 29th 2016, 07:55 PM
My personal opinion would be that in the corporate setting we address Father in Jesus name.

Individually, we can speak to any one of the three.

Not really. Any prayer to the Holy Spirit is not really being answered by the Holy Spirit just as any prayer to saints or Mary is not really being answered by them either.

There is only one way to come to God the Father in prayer and in worship and in fellowship and that is by way of the Son at that throne of grace.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So the devil can hoodwink believers by saying "Did Jesus really meant that above in John 14:6,13-14?" just to sow doubts to His words.

People pray to the Holy Spirit to come and give them tongues which never comes with interpretation, but that is not the Holy Spirit that came on them when the real indwelling Holy Spirit was already in them as promised by faith in Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

People have prayed for the Holy Spirit to come unto them for other things too in the "holy laughter" movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto Blessings, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade and not just the another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues that never comes with interpretation, because, God is not the author of confusion and thus again, the Holy Spirit is not the One answering those prayers. It is apostasy for climbing up another way to God instead of the Son.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

That is what believers get for climbing some other way in approaching God the Father by; a stranger's voice; hence tongues with no interpretation.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

So is the Father glorified in the Holy Spirit for answered prayers? No. The Father is glorified in the Son for answered prayers because the Son is the only One answering those prayers as it is the Son that is the only Mediator between God and men to present our prayers to God the Father by. That is His job and that is His glory so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 02:26 AM
It does specify Jesus in context...

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/jesus-is-god/can-we-pray-to-jesus/

There are other examples here. I recommend reading this.That's your opinion and the article is terrible. To say Jesus said to ask him in John 14, when he said don't ask him in John 16 is just sad.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 02:36 AM
Amen. But the term IS used to specify Jesus... so now what :lol:It's used in prayer and thanksgiving to the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.



If I take the time to post others, then what?You won't because you can't, and if you could you would have already, and so would have everyone else that agrees with you. Again, there's a reason no one has.



Edit: I'm gonna add this to the mix and see if you are willing to help yourself understand. Do a Greek study of Acts 8:22 and see who you can determine that Peter is telling Simon to pray to... :)Seriously? God



If I understand your question... I have to ask, is a purpose of the example of the Lord's prayer a means to limit our prayers?Why are you limited asking the Father as Jesus said to? In fact, John 16 makes it abundantly clear it is because you can ask the Father and are not to ask Jesus that you are not limited in any way.



So to answer you... Praying to Jesus IS praying to God.Whether or not Jesus is God is not in question. Jesus said to ask the Father not him. What part of that confuses you?



Just as listening to the Holy Spirit, is listening to God.Again, how do you apply that to John 16? Why even bring it up?



When a person says that anyone in their church can't pray to Jesus during a service, it is being done.Jesus said don't ask him. Is he doing it?

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 02:38 AM
Are the words of Jesus not enough for you?

John 15:16 Whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 16:23 23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.

You are constantly arguing against Scripture.jaybird answered this already




So...
Conversation with God is prayer...
Conversation with Jesus is acceptable...
One may not pray to Jesus.

Ok.......... you're about as clear as always.

:BHere's the question again.

Do you wanna talk about having a conversation with Jesus, or asking the Father?

What is unclear about Jesus' words John 16?

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 03:11 AM
Hmmm....I noticed at the bottom of the page in the Similar Threads" section there was a thread by IsItLove called "Is praying to Jesus biblical?" asking "Is praying to Jesus biblical?" in the OP. Here's reply #22


Thanks everyone.

What I am seeing so far is:

When we are asking to receive something, we should ask our Father directly.

Prayer to Jesus is appropriate in thanksgiving, praise and apparently in asking him to take your spirit.

It didn't take IsItLove long to get it.

ewq1938
Mar 1st 2016, 03:20 AM
That's your opinion and the article is terrible. To say Jesus said to ask him in John 14, when he said don't ask him in John 16 is just sad.

Let's see if that is true:


Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. \

this is regarding his resurrection. They are sad now, but he will return to them.


Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

He doesn't say "don't ask me" he says they won't ask him "in that day" a reference to the time they would see him again from verse 22. This is time specific.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 03:26 AM
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 01:21 PM
Seriously? God

Ah see, your conclusion is based on what? A study will show you, based on the term used for "Lord" that Peter is telling Simon to pray to Jesus.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 01:29 PM
Hmmm....I noticed at the bottom of the page in the Similar Threads" section there was a thread by IsItLove called "Is praying to Jesus biblical?" asking "Is praying to Jesus biblical?" in the OP. Here's reply #22



It didn't take IsItLove long to get it.Noeb, something you miss... IsItLove does agree it is appropriate to pray to Jesus for thanksgiving, praise, and apparently in asking Him to take your spirit. However, these acceptances are based on the EXAMPLES of prayer given to us in the Bible.

Again, lessons come in two forms... teaching AND example.

You are advocating that by a single scripture, this does not mean a lesson is taught. Yet, here you agree that BY ONE scripture, where Stephen asks Jesus to receive his spirit, it's NOW ok to pray, due to this example.

Well, I gave you ONE example of Paul praying to Jesus to take a thorn from his flesh... why is this ONE example not good enough and you demand more.

So I gave you one... and you asked if I'm serious and said, GOD is who Peter informs Simon in Who he must pray to. Well, this just shows us that you do not want to find that there is ANOTHER example of praying to Jesus. As I mentioned in my previous post, the terms used by Luke as Peter instructed Simon reveal that it is not "God" Who Simon is to pray too, it's Jesus.

Yet, you say IsItLove gets it, due to a single verse where Stephen prays to Jesus to take his spirit :hmm:

I just wonder why another single example given so far about Paul isn't enough :idea:

jaybird
Mar 1st 2016, 01:52 PM
I just wonder why another single example given so far about Paul isn't enough :idea:

probably because the example in pauls prayer is not clear as he is praying to the Lord. the study notes even say that Lord could be referring to Father or Son.

Golgotha
Mar 1st 2016, 02:28 PM
Hmmm....I noticed at the bottom of the page in the Similar Threads" section there was a thread by IsItLove called "Is praying to Jesus biblical?" asking "Is praying to Jesus biblical?" in the OP. Here's reply #22



It didn't take IsItLove long to get it.

What name was it that you called upon to be saved? The name Jesus Christ, right? Jesus saved you, right? How is that not praying to Jesus?

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 03:53 PM
probably because the example in pauls prayer is not clear as he is praying to the Lord. the study notes even say that Lord could be referring to Father or Son.Yes, "notes" in a Study Bible will say this. However, go beyond study notes... look at the original Greek terms that Paul choses to use to ensure the reader knows "who" he is writing about.

Yes, the type of term used determines where and when "Lord" (in English) means either God or Son. Thus why a generalized study note will inform you that either God or Son is who the term "Lord" is about.

2 Cor 12:8 is a verse where the Greek term utilized informs the reader that Paul prays to Jesus those three times. In other verses, the Greek term he may use informs that he is speaking about or praying to God.

The terms used in Paul's letters does inform the reader that at times he prays to God and others, to Jesus.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 04:26 PM
Ah see, your conclusion is based on what? A study will show you, based on the term used for "Lord" that Peter is telling Simon to pray to Jesus.Peter doesn't say Lord Slug1. Simon did.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 05:04 PM
Peter doesn't say Lord Slug1. Simon did.The verse is clear, Peter is instructing Simon of what to do:

v22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 05:12 PM
Noeb, something you miss... IsItLove does agree it is appropriate to pray to Jesus for thanksgiving, praise, and apparently in asking Him to take your spirit. However, these acceptances are based on the EXAMPLES of prayer given to us in the Bible.

Again, lessons come in two forms... teaching AND example.

You are advocating that by a single scripture, this does not mean a lesson is taught. Yet, here you agree that BY ONE scripture, where Stephen asks Jesus to receive his spirit, it's NOW ok to pray, due to this example.

Well, I gave you ONE example of Paul praying to Jesus to take a thorn from his flesh... why is this ONE example not good enough and you demand more.

So I gave you one... and you asked if I'm serious and said, GOD is who Peter informs Simon in Who he must pray to. Well, this just shows us that you do not want to find that there is ANOTHER example of praying to Jesus. As I mentioned in my previous post, the terms used by Luke as Peter instructed Simon reveal that it is not "God" Who Simon is to pray too, it's Jesus.

Yet, you say IsItLove gets it, due to a single verse where Stephen prays to Jesus to take his spirit :hmm:

I just wonder why another single example given so far about Paul isn't enough :idea:IsItLove said what I have said all along. Might wanna actually read what people say Slug1. Agreeing, come quickly -Rev 22:20, isn't asking. Depositing your spirit to the Lord in physical death as Jesus did to the Father and exercising authority to forgive sins- Stephen, isn't asking in the Lord's prayer /John 16 sense.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 05:13 PM
The verse is clear, Peter is instructing Simon of what to do:

v22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 05:59 PM
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.Noeb, lets look at the original message that Peter spoke to Simon and the words he used... not some translation that tosses in the English word, "God".

We are trying to learn the lesson and meaning of the message Peter was speaking.

Peter did not say, "God." His instructions to Simon was to pray to the "Lord" and the term used by Luke was about Jesus, as he wrote WHAT was said to Simon. Peter did not tell Simon to pray to God.

Go ahead... you are a man that I'm sure wants to mature in his understanding of the Word of God :idea:

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 06:00 PM
IsItLove said what I have said all along. Might wanna actually read what people say Slug1. Agreeing, come quickly -Rev 22:20, isn't asking. Depositing your spirit to the Lord in physical death as Jesus did to the Father and exercising authority to forgive sins- Stephen, isn't asking in the Lord's prayer /John 16 sense.Speaking of John who authored The Revelation... he prayed to Jesus in that book also :)

Eventually I was gonna raise that fact :P

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 06:03 PM
Noeb, lets look at the original message that Peter spoke to Simon and the words he used... not some translation that tosses in the English word, "God".

We are trying to learn the lesson and meaning of the message Peter was speaking.

Peter did not say, "God." His instructions to Simon was to pray to the "Lord" and the term used by Luke was about Jesus, as he wrote WHAT was said to Simon. Peter did not tell Simon to pray to God.

Go ahead... you are a man that I'm sure wants to mature in his understanding of the Word of God :idea:unless my eyes tricked me the Greek is theos - God. Is this not correct?

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 06:04 PM
unless my eyes tricked me the Greek is theos - God. Is this not correct?NO. The term in v22 is Kyriou (Gk) Κυρίου.

ChangedByHim
Mar 1st 2016, 06:06 PM
jaybird answered this already
I was asking you, but I understand why you don't want to answer.



Here's the question again.

Do you wanna talk about having a conversation with Jesus, or asking the Father?

What is unclear about Jesus' words John 16?

So...
Conversation with God is prayer...
Conversation with Jesus is acceptable...
One may not pray to Jesus.

/repeat

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 06:06 PM
Speaking of John who authored The Revelation... he prayed to Jesus in that book also :)

Eventually I was gonna raise that fact :P*sigh.. ... Ok..... Where?

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 06:07 PM
NO. The term in v22 is Kyriou (Gk) Κυρίου.I'll check it out, but how does this mean Jesus? As I've already pointed out, Peter used Lord in chapter 4 for God or Father and not Jesus.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 06:10 PM
I was asking you, but I understand why you don't want to answer.I said there's no need to repeat jaybird. So I did answer with the same answer.

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 06:22 PM
unless my eyes tricked me the Greek is theos - God. Is this not correct?
NO. The term in v22 is Kyriou (Gk) Κυρίου.Well if you look at the different Greek texts, it would depend on the Greek text as to which word is used ... :)

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/8-22.htm

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 06:25 PM
Well if you look at the different Greek texts, it would depend on the Greek text as to which word is used ... :)
Ah, one of those deals. Thanks Christinme

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 06:29 PM
Well if you look at the different Greek texts, it would depend on the Greek text as to which word is used ... :)

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/8-22.htm


Ah, one of those deals. Thanks Christinme

Yeah, thanks CiM, you just posted the exact same reference as I :P

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 06:33 PM
Yeah, thanks CiM, you just posted the exact same reference as I :PWell did you look at the different Greek texts and see that it depends on which Greek text one uses as to which Greek word is used? Both words are used ... so what Greek word is used in that verse depends on WHICH Greek text one uses ... and that isn't what you presented ... or what Noeb presented, which Noeb appears to recognize that, while I'm not sure you do with your remark and stuck out tongue.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 06:48 PM
Well did you look at the different Greek texts and see that it depends on which Greek text one uses as to which Greek word is used? Both words are used ... so what Greek word is used in that verse depends on WHICH Greek text one uses ... and that isn't what you presented ... or what Noeb presented, which Noeb appears to recognize that, while I'm not sure you do with your remark and stuck out tongue.If I select the Greek parallel and view various ones, the term for Lord is pretty much the same. Clicking the Lexicon, still points out that the "Lord" in this v22 is "master" and then we can go into "Who" the master is throughout the NT.

A good way to view the use of terms.... go to chapter 8 and study the conversation between Ananias and "the Lord". View the scripture about whether of not it was "God" who knock Paul off the horse and speak to Paul, or did Jesus? Did God or Jesus speak to Ananias in reference to Paul and what "He" did to Paul and what "He" wants Ananias to do to Paul?

Did God send Ananias on the mission, or did Jesus?

After that study is concluded, go back to who Paul prayed to in 2 Cor 12:8 and lets see if it is God, or Jesus?

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 06:57 PM
If I select the Greek parallel and view various ones, the term for Lord is pretty much the same. Clicking the Lexicon, still points out that the "Lord" in this v22 is "master" and then we can go into "Who" the master is throughout the NT.

A good way to view the use of terms.... go to chapter 8 and study the conversation between Ananias and "the Lord". View the scripture about whether of not it was "God" who knock Paul off the horse and speak to Paul, or did Jesus? Did God or Jesus speak to Ananias in reference to Paul and what "He" did to Paul and what "He" wants Ananias to do to Paul?

Did God send Ananias on the mission, or did Jesus?

After that study is concluded, go back to who Paul prayed to in 2 Cor 12:8 and lets see if it is God, or Jesus?
Greek parallel ... what is that ... if you look at the Greek you can look below and see many of the Greek texts and you can see that both words are used depending on the Greek text, however at the top they only point out one because they only use one of the Greek texts there:

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/8-22.htm

"Nestle GNT 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort 1881
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Tischendorf 8th Edition
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου"

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 07:09 PM
Greek parallel ... what is that ... if you look at the Greek you can look below and see many of the Greek texts and you can see that both words are used depending on the Greek text, however at the top they only point out one because they only use one of the Greek texts there:

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/8-22.htm

"Nestle GNT 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort 1881
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Tischendorf 8th Edition
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου"

OK... that is the parallel I referred to. I also used this in reply to Noeb:

I quote:


NO. The term in v22 is Kyriou (Gk) Κυρίου.

So you may notice, it is the same throughout all those texts.

I encourage you to follow through with a study that I suggested in post #145.

I feel it will end the back and forth as once completed with the study, one will be forced to make a decision in "who" Paul was knocked down by and who spoke to him, who spoke to Ananias... related to who Paul prayed to in 2 Cor 12:8.

I will find it interesting when one who completes the study finally admits "who" Paul prayed to.

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 07:11 PM
OK... that is the parallel I referred to. I also used this in reply to Noeb:

I quote:



So you may notice, it is the same throughout all those texts.
It's not the same in all the texts, I bolded it in each of the texts and some texts put what you put forth and some texts use what Noeb put forth. Are you not seeing that? BOTH Greek words can be found in different Greek texts both theos (Θεοῦ) and kurios (κυρίου).

Once again the two different words are used:

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/8-22.htm

"Nestle GNT 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort 1881
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Tischendorf 8th Edition
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου"

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 07:32 PM
It's not the same in all the texts, I bolded it in each of the texts and some texts put what you put forth and some texts use what Noeb put forth. Are you not seeing that? BOTH Greek words can be found in different Greek texts both theos (Θεοῦ) and kurios (κυρίου).

Once again the two different words are used:

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/8-22.htm

"Nestle GNT 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort 1881
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Tischendorf 8th Edition
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ κυρίου εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου·

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης, καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
μετανόησον οὖν ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας σου ταύτης καὶ δεήθητι τοῦ Θεοῦ, εἰ ἄρα ἀφεθήσεταί σοι ἡ ἐπίνοια τῆς καρδίας σου"When you follow through with the study of "who" knocked Paul off the horse and spoke with him... all these Greek use of terms will begin to be funneled toward one meaning.

If I may, I can help you start. Paul asks in verse 5 of Acts 9, "5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

The term for Lord here is: (Gk) Κύριε; or (English) Kyrie (http://biblehub.com/greek/kurie_2962.htm)

Same term definition as the one you used for Acts 8:22.

I encourage you to continue in the study when you have time in determining whether or not Paul was speaking with "God" or "Jesus" and then, in your determination, who Paul also prayed to in 2 Cor 12:8.

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 07:47 PM
When you follow through with the study of "who" knocked Paul off the horse and spoke with him... all these Greek use of terms will begin to be funneled toward one meaning.

If I may, I can help you start. Paul asks in verse 5 of Acts 9, "5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

The term for Lord here is: (Gk) Κύριε; or (English) Kyrie (http://biblehub.com/greek/kurie_2962.htm)

Same term definition as the one you used for Acts 8:22.

I encourage you to continue in the study when you have time in determining whether or not Paul was speaking with "God" or "Jesus" and then, in your determination, who Paul also prayed to in 2 Cor 12:8.You put forward that the Greek in this particular verse Acts 8:22 is kyriou as opposed to what Noeb said was theos ... I put forth that depending on which Greek text one is reading will depend on what Greek word is used there. You seem to be avoiding that and want to make your case on the supposed fact that Acts 8:22 the Greek word is kyriou however the FACTS are that there are Greek texts that use the word theos in Acts 8:22 INSTEAD of kyriou. That was my purpose into entering into the thread to point out that in Acts 8:22 some Greek texts have kyriou and some have theos. It seems you are keeping sticking to that only kyriou is used in all the Greek texts in Acts 8:22 and I'm saying that is not true.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 07:48 PM
You put forward that the Greek in this particular verse Acts 8:22 is kyriou as opposed to what Noeb said was theos ... I put forth that depending on which Greek text one is reading will depend on what Greek word is used there. You seem to be avoiding that and want to make your case on the supposed fact that Acts 8:22 the Greek word is kyriou however the FACTS are that there are Greek texts that use the word theos in Acts 8:22 INSTEAD of kyriou. That was my purpose into entering into the thread to point out that in Acts 8:22 some Greek texts have kyriou and some have theos. It seems you are keeping sticking to that only kyriou is used in all the Greek texts in Acts 8:22 and I'm saying that is not true.OK... lets break this down then.

Let's start with Paul laying on his back in the middle of a dusty road... who is "the Lord" that Paul is speaking too?

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 07:55 PM
OK... lets break this down then.

Let's start with Paul laying on his back in the middle of a dusty road... who is "the Lord" that Paul is speaking too?Let's stick to what I came into this thread because of ... what started with your comment here:


Noeb, lets look at the original message that Peter spoke to Simon and the words he used... not some translation that tosses in the English word, "God".

We are trying to learn the lesson and meaning of the message Peter was speaking.

Peter did not say, "God." His instructions to Simon was to pray to the "Lord" and the term used by Luke was about Jesus, as he wrote WHAT was said to Simon. Peter did not tell Simon to pray to God.

Go ahead... you are a man that I'm sure wants to mature in his understanding of the Word of God :idea:This is all concerning Acts 8:22 ... so do you see that there are some Greek texts that use kyriou and some Greek texts that use theos? I'm not willing to move anywhere until you address this, which you seem again to be side stepping ...

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 08:07 PM
Let's stick to what I came into this thread because of ... what started with your comment here:

This is all concerning Acts 8:22 ... so do you see that there are some Greek texts that use kyriou and some Greek texts that use theos? I'm not willing to move anywhere until you address this, which you seem again to be side stepping ...Yes I understand what you are pointing out.

Now... is anyone going to do a study to narrow down who is who in the proper context of use of terms? That is what sidestepping would be if no studying will be done.

If not, we will go back and forth until Κυρίου/Θεοῦ Himself returns.

I wonder if at this time, are we also going to go back and forth determining if God is returning, or Jesus is returning :)

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 08:19 PM
What does Ananias' vision and Jesus appearing to Paul have to do with who we ask - Lord's prayer/John 16?

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 08:20 PM
What name was it that you called upon to be saved? The name Jesus Christ, right? Jesus saved you, right? How is that not praying to Jesus?
How does this address who we ask - Lord's prayer/John 16?

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 08:23 PM
Yes I understand what you are pointing out.

Now... is anyone going to do a study to narrow down who is who in the proper context of use of terms? That is what sidestepping would be if no studying will be done.

If not, we will go back and forth until Κυρίου/Θεοῦ Himself returns.

I wonder if at this time, are we also going to go back and forth determining if God is returning, or Jesus is returning :)That all could have been avoided to begin with if you just right away stated that both Greek words are used in different Greek texts ... why you didn't do that and seemed to keep insisting that the Greek there is kyriou I have no idea. :)



OK... lets break this down then.

Let's start with Paul laying on his back in the middle of a dusty road... who is "the Lord" that Paul is speaking too?Yea let's look at that ...

Acts 9:3-5 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Well Paul didn't know who he was speaking to when Paul asked "Who are you, Lord?". Paul didn't know ... but then Paul found out and we all know it was Jesus, because it says it right in the text.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 08:36 PM
That all could have been avoided to begin with if you just right away stated that both Greek words are used in different Greek texts ... why you didn't do that and seemed to keep insisting that the Greek there is kyriou I have no idea. :)


Yea let's look at that ...

Acts 9:3-5 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Well Paul didn't know who he was speaking to when Paul asked "Who are you, Lord?". Paul didn't know ... but then Paul found out and we all know it was Jesus, because it says it right in the text.Awesome. If you continue to narrow down your understanding of terms, then when you view who Paul is praying to in 2 Cor 12:8, was it God, or Jesus?

This is where it is important for this thread in determining if prayer is taught by lesson only, or ALSO by example.

In other words, is the means to pray by "do as I say" ONLY?

Or can we also pray by, "do as I do also." :hmm:

Thus why I've been saying, the lesson on prayer is more then the do as I say (Lord's Prayer/John 16), but ALSO, we have to account for the do as I do, praying in the Bible also.

By taking all this into account, THEN... we have a full lesson on prayer and can determine whether or not it is OK to pray to God the Father when we want to, to God the Son, when we want to, and even God the Spirit, when we want to.

Who has never prayed something along these lines, "Holy Spirit, empower and anoint the words I will be preaching this day..."

It seems that if such a prayer was prayed, some in this thread would say, "you can't pray to the Holy Spirit" :rolleyes:

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 08:37 PM
What does Ananias' vision and Jesus appearing to Paul have to do with who we ask - Lord's prayer/John 16?Who did Paul ask in 2 Cor 12:8?

Then you will understand the importance of Acts 9 scriptures.

Christinme
Mar 1st 2016, 09:01 PM
Awesome. If you continue to narrow down your understanding of terms, then when you view who Paul is praying to in 2 Cor 12:8, was it God, or Jesus?Well I would tend to think it was God. But I'm up to examining that. :) I'm not sure it can be proven either way.

Noeb
Mar 1st 2016, 09:23 PM
Who did Paul ask in 2 Cor 12:8? The Lord




Then you will understand the importance of Acts 9 scriptures.You really going to argue it fits the Lord's prayer/John 16?

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 11:56 PM
The Lord ANd based on the terms used PLUS the context of verses 9-10, can we determine if the use of terms denotes God, or Jesus?



You really going to argue it fits the Lord's prayer/John 16?No because it doesn't. We all know the lesson Jesus taught. But we also learn by example too. This way we have a complete lesson. Lessons in the Bible are BOTH, do as I say and also, do as I do. The Apostles and disciples at the time of when the scriptures were being written down, were the "do as I do" parts of the complete lessons on what to do, and HOW to do.

Slug1
Mar 1st 2016, 11:58 PM
Well I would tend to think it was God. But I'm up to examining that. :) I'm not sure it can be proven either way.Hooah! For some it can't and I believe they will also be debating this until Κυρίου/Θεοῦ Himself returns.

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:13 AM
ANd based on the terms used PLUS the context of verses 9-10, can we determine if the use of terms denotes God, or Jesus?Again, verses 9-10 don't indicate who was asked or who answered, so all we can do is look at how we are instructed to ask and the examples we have been given, and they all ask God or the Father.




No because it doesn't. We all know the lesson Jesus taught. But we also learn by example too. This way we have a complete lesson. Lessons in the Bible are BOTH, do as I say and also, do as I do. The Apostles and disciples at the time of when the scriptures were being written down, were the "do as I do" parts of the complete lessons on what to do, and HOW to do.and as we have seen, all the do as I do examples of asking in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense are to God or the Father just as Jesus instructed and gave example.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:15 AM
I might would suggest that if a certain church had a problem concerning this and wanted to restrict who prayers are addressed to that it might would be better to say that it should be restricted to prayers to "God" or "the Lord" and then each person would have the "choice" to understand that how they understood it. Just a suggestion for whatever it's worth.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:18 AM
Hooah! For some it can't and I believe they will also be debating this until Κυρίου/Θεοῦ Himself returns.I think there is not any disagreement on that it is Jesus who will be returning ... :)

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:20 AM
Again, verses 9-10 don't indicate who was asked or who answered, so all we can do is look at how we are instructed to ask and the examples we have been given, and they all ask God or the Father. All? We will just have to disagree on this until Κυρίου/Θεοῦ Himself returns. The example that the Word of God teaches us through Stephen, well... that alone proves that not "all" examples given are to God the Father.



and as we have seen, all the do as I do examples of asking in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense are to God or the Father just as Jesus instructed and gave example.Amen! But then.... Stephen didn't follow the lesson as a "do as I say" example, or did he provide further example as a, "do as I do" example??

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:22 AM
I think there is not any disagreement on that it Jesus who will be returning ... :)Not according to the terms used in some of those various Greek texts:)

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:23 AM
Not according to the terms used in some of those various Greek texts:)But there is not consistency in the terms ... as you very well know. But there is consistency in opinions in certain verses. :)

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:27 AM
But there is not consistency in the terms ... as you very well know. But there is consistency in opinions in certain verses. :)Not necessarily, Noeb just said all examples of prayer are to God the Father.

It is my opinion that Stephen's prayer refutes Noeb's opinion.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 12:48 AM
Not necessarily, Noeb just said all examples of prayer are to God the Father.

It is my opinion that Stephen's prayer refutes Noeb's opinion.So was Stephen praying to Jesus or calling upon Jesus/appealing to Jesus? Is there any difference? And how about the next verse Acts 7:60 who was Stephen asking to not hold this sin against them was he asking the Father or Jesus? And as I said there are consistency in opinions in certain verses ... I do believe we all believe it is Jesus that is returning (this question you keep insinuating exists of who exactly will be returning).

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 01:42 AM
All?Yes



We will just have to disagree on this until Κυρίου/Θεοῦ Himself returns. The example that the Word of God teaches us through StephenWhat did Stephen ask be done on earth as it is in heaven -in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense?



well... that alone proves that not "all" examples given are to God the Father.Well, the only other example left is 2Cor 12 and there's nothing definitive there. Got any others?

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 01:50 AM
So was Stephen prayingThere's no issue with him praying/conversing/praising/worshiping Jesus, but what did he ask be done on earth as it is in heaven in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense?



to Jesus or calling upon Jesus/appealing to Jesus? Is there any difference?There's definitely a difference in asking for something and giving yourself to Jesus in death.



And how about the next verse Acts 7:60 who was Stephen asking to not hold this sin against them was he asking the Father or Jesus?I don't see a question there.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 01:59 AM
I don't see a question there.Maybe I should have said requesting there. Anyways who does the term "Lord" refer to in Acts 7:60, the Father or Jesus?

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 02:12 AM
Maybe I should have said requesting there."lay not this sin to their charge."
Request?

Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."



Anyways who does the term "Lord" refer to in Acts 7:60, the Father or Jesus?An educated guess would be
"the Son of man"
"Lord Jesus"

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 02:18 AM
"lay not this sin to their charge."
Request?

Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."


An educated guess would be
"the Son of man"
"Lord Jesus"Yes request ... "And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.'" Stephen didn't say "Lord, I'm not holding this sin against them." :) Though I do tend to believe that in general we have the authority to forgive sins that others do towards us. And my guess would be he is referring to the Father, God. :)

jaybird
Mar 2nd 2016, 02:45 AM
Yes request ... "And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.'" Stephen didn't say "Lord, I'm not holding this sin against them." :) Though I do tend to believe that in general we have the authority to forgive sins that others do towards us. And my guess would be he is referring to the Father, God. :)

i keep thinking back to Jesus teaching His Apostles on prayer. the Apostles walked with Jesus every day, were well schooled on scripture, you would think they already knew how to pray, so what were they looking for when they asked Jesus how to pray, maybe the proper way? of the Apostles that Jesus personally taught (while He was on earth doing His ministry), do we have any examples of them addressing their prayers to Jesus?

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 03:16 AM
So was Stephen praying to Jesus or calling upon Jesus/appealing to Jesus?

v59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Based on the verse, I am forced to answer that he prayed to Jesus. The Word also helps us understand (through this verse) that Jesus is God too. God being who is responsible for creation :)


Is there any difference? Honestly, I don't think so. When a person who is lost, chooses instead to turn to God and calls on Jesus to save them... it's a prayer.


And how about the next verse Acts 7:60 who was Stephen asking to not hold this sin against them was he asking the Father or Jesus? Unless he changed who he was praying too from one breath to the next... do you think he changed who he was praying too?


And as I said there are consistency in opinions in certain verses ... I do believe we all believe it is Jesus that is returning (this question you keep insinuating exists of who exactly will be returning).I'm just asking that to raise the fact that "terms" can mean what we want them to mean if we don't apply context.

Contextually, we know that every time the term Lord is used in relation to "who" is returning, we know that "Lord" is Jesus. So, it's just a matter of context for the term Lord in other scriptures and in this thread, who is being prayed to when Lord is the recipient of the prayer.

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 03:20 AM
YesAgain, based on who Stephen prayed too, I can't agree with ya.



What did Stephen ask be done on earth as it is in heaven -in the Lord's prayer/John 16 sense?When he prayed to Jesus? He asked that his soul be received and to forgive those who persecuted him.



Well, the only other example left is 2Cor 12 and there's nothing definitive there. Got any others?Not yet, I'm figuring that if you pursue this, you will find them.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 03:39 AM
Yes request ... "And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.'" Stephen didn't say "Lord, I'm not holding this sin against them." :) Though I do tend to believe that in general we have the authority to forgive sins that others do towards us. And my guess would be he is referring to the Father, God. :)

Except he did not speak to the Father, he named Lord Jesus as the one he was asking to receive his spirit.

Clearly there is no "rule" of whom to pray or ask thing of. Ask Christ if you wish, or ask the Father if you wish. It's all the same in the end.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 03:43 AM
v59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Based on the verse, I am forced to answer that he prayed to Jesus.

"upon God" is added and is not in the original text.

Act 7:59 AndG2532 they stonedG3036 Stephen,G4736 calling uponG1941 God, andG2532 saying,G3004 LordG2962 Jesus,G2424 receiveG1209 myG3450 spirit.G4151

God has no reference number and in E-sword that means it's simply added.

So the verse actually reads as: Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 03:51 AM
v59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Based on the verse, I am forced to answer that he prayed to Jesus. The Word also helps us understand (through this verse) that Jesus is God too.

Honestly, I don't think so. When a person who is lost, chooses instead to turn to God and calls on Jesus to save them... it's a prayer.Stephen wasn't lost. This same Greek word ( http://biblehub.com/greek/1941.htm ) used in this verse is also used in Acts 25:11 was Paul praying to Ceaser in Acts 25:11? And that translation you are using has added in the word "God" there is no Greek text that has that in the text. Many translations don't include that.

http://biblehub.com/acts/7-59.htm

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/7-59.htm

Anyways it is clear here that Lord Jesus is referring to Jesus.




Unless he changed who he was praying too from one breath to the next... do you think he changed who he was praying too?Well if he was continuing to refer to Lord Jesus no need to re-clarify Lord. So Stephen says Lord Jesus and then Lord. I do tend to believe that the "Lord" in verse 50 is referring to God the Father. That's my understanding. However I think this is a case that isn't necessarily clear. :)



I'm just asking that to raise the fact that "terms" can mean what we want them to mean if we don't apply context.

Contextually, we know that every time the term Lord is used in relation to "who" is returning, we know that "Lord" is Jesus. So, it's just a matter of context for the term Lord in other scriptures and in this thread, who is being prayed to when Lord is the recipient of the prayer.Well some context it's clear other context it's not so clear. Although I'm thinking you won't agree with that. :)

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:00 AM
Stephen wasn't lost. This same Greek word ( http://biblehub.com/greek/1941.htm ) used in this verse is also used in Acts 25:11 was Paul praying to Ceaser in Acts 25:11? And that translation you are using has added in the word "God" there is no Greek text that has that in the text. Many translations don't include that.

http://biblehub.com/acts/7-59.htm

http://biblehub.com/text/acts/7-59.htm

Anyways it is clear here that Lord Jesus is referring to Jesus. I should have been more clear when I addressed the other part of your post and raised the lost issue. Not my intention to imply Stephen was lost... my intention was to touch on that "when" a lost person calls on Jesus to save them, that they are praying to Jesus.




Well if he was continuing to refer to Jesus no reason to repeat Lord. So Stephen says Lord Jesus and then Lord. So I do tend to believe that the "Lord" in verse 50 is referring to God the Father. That's my understanding. :)So, when Stephen named Lord Jesus in one breath and in the next said only Lord, he was referring to God the Father both times?



Well some context it's clear other context it's not so clear. Although I'm thinking you won't agree with that. :)I believe we make it unclear so we can stick to what we want to believe.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:00 AM
Except he did not speak to the Father, he named Lord Jesus as the one he was asking to receive his spirit.

Clearly there is no "rule" of whom to pray or ask thing of. Ask Christ if you wish, or ask the Father if you wish. It's all the same in the end.In the first verse (59) he clearly speaks to Lord Jesus. In the next verse (60) he speaks to "Lord" ... that doesn't necessarily mean that in this verse (60) he is also speaking to Lord Jesus.

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:04 AM
In the first verse (59) he clearly speaks to Lord Jesus. In the next verse (60) he speaks to "Lord" ... that doesn't necessarily mean that in this verse (60) he is also speaking to Lord Jesus.So in one breath he's talking to Jesus, and then next breath, he's not?

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:04 AM
So, when Stephen named Lord Jesus in one breath and in the next said only Lord, he was referring to God the Father both times?Where did you get that from??? Lord Jesus clearly refers to Lord Jesus NOT to God the Father. I'm saying that who he is speaking to in verse 60 isn't clear, however my opinion is that it is God the Father.



I believe we make it unclear so we can stick to what we want to believe.And one could say that one says it's clear so one can stick with what they want to believe ... :)

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:08 AM
In the first verse (59) he clearly speaks to Lord Jesus. In the next verse (60) he speaks to "Lord" ... that doesn't necessarily mean that in this verse (60) he is also speaking to Lord Jesus.

It's pretty clear that he hasn't changed who he is speaking to. The preceding verse is all that is needed that one can ask Christ things without asking the Father in Christ's name

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:08 AM
So in one breath he's talking to Jesus, and then next breath, he's not?In one breath he is talking to Jesus and in the next breath he can be talking to God the Father, is that something that is impossible?

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:14 AM
Where did you get that from??? Lord Jesus clearly refers to Lord Jesus NOT to God the Father. I'm saying that who he is speaking to in verse 60 isn't clear, however my opinion is that it is God the Father.So was Stephen praying to Jesus in one breath while praying (v59) and while he took a breath to continue praying, "CHANGED" who he was praying too (v60) when he began to breath out the final part of the prayer?



And one could say that one says it's clear so one can stick with what they want to believe ... :)The scripture speaks for itself :idea:

It's all about what we want to believe.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:16 AM
In one breath he is talking to Jesus and in the next breath he can be talking to God the Father, is that something that is impossible?

Contextually that makes no sense and should be rejected. It is clearer that everything he said to Jesus was in one "breath" kneeling as he continued to speak.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:16 AM
It's pretty clear that he hasn't changed who he is speaking to. The preceding verse is all that is needed that one can ask Christ things without asking the Father in Christ's nameWell verse 59 can mean in Christ's name receive my spirit. Again that calling out is the same word that Paul uses to appeal to Ceaser in Acts 25:11. So maybe Stephen isn't really even doing anything more than that in verse 59. The more I think about it the more that makes sense. I don't really have a preconceived idea of how it has to be. Looking at it all for seriously the first time ... I would say this makes the most sense. I really didn't intend to get into this full discussion concerning all this I just initially intended to point out that different Greek texts use different Greek words in Acts 8:22.

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:20 AM
In one breath he is talking to Jesus and in the next breath he can be talking to God the Father, is that something that is impossible?Whether it is impossible or not isn't really the issue. The issue is DID Stephen pray to both Jesus and God?

Be as it may, you can say YES.... heck, I will say yes just to satisfy you :)

But the truth remains no matter what ya want to believe. Stephen prayed TO Jesus and that cannot be denied.

So, for members of the board in this thread who say there are NO examples of anyone ever praying to Jesus... well :idea:

I will just keep raising Stephen's example of prayer as he lifted prayer up to Jesus and the denial can continue until He returns (and I didn't paste in the Jesus/God in the Greek this time :lol:

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:23 AM
Whether it is impossible or not isn't really the issue. The issue is DID Stephen pray to both Jesus and God?

Be as it may, you can say YES.... heck, I will say yes just to satisfy you :)

But the truth remains no matter what ya want to believe. Stephen prayed TO Jesus and that cannot be denied.

So, for members of the board in this thread who say there are NO examples of anyone ever praying to Jesus... well :idea:

I will just keep raising Stephen's example of prayer as he lifted prayer up to Jesus and the denial can continue until He returns (and I didn't paste in the Jesus/God in the Greek this time :lol:This relates to what you've said here also so I will just repeat it.

Verse 59 can mean in Christ's name receive my spirit. Again that calling out is the same word that Paul uses to appeal to Ceaser in Acts 25:11. So maybe Stephen isn't really even doing anything more than that in verse 59. The more I think about it the more that makes sense. I don't really have a preconceived idea of how it has to be. Looking at it all for seriously the first time ... I would say this makes the most sense. I really didn't intend to get into this full discussion concerning all this I just initially intended to point out that different Greek texts use different Greek words in Acts 8:22.




The scripture speaks for itself :idea:

It's all about what we want to believe.Well seems many believe that Scripture completely supports their understanding ... that's for sure. Good thing I don't just agree with everyone who says Scripture clearly says this or that because there are so many people who say so many different things that Scripture clearly says I would be just going crazy trying to believe conflicting things. So I'm quite satisfied with just having my opinion on many things and I actually think it's wiser to not insist that Scripture absolutely confirms my understanding.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:24 AM
Well verse 59 can mean in the Christ's name receive my spirit.

No, it cannot mean that because the words he does use directly addresses Jesus Christ. And the continued words to Jesus continues as he kneels.

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:26 AM
Again, based on who Stephen prayed too, I can't agree with ya.He didn't pray in the ask sense, which is the question. See the Lord's prayer/John 16.



When he prayed to Jesus? He asked that his soul be received and to forgive those who persecuted him.Ask? Where? He didn't ask. Would you ask? If you need to ask about yourself going to Jesus when you die, well, you shouldn't be asking for that you need saved first.



Not yetEveryone knows you don't have any. Even those that agree with you.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:29 AM
No, it cannot mean that because the words he does use directly addresses Jesus Christ. And the continued words to Jesus continues as he kneels.So the word he used as called out/appealed is the same word that Paul used in Acts 25:11 does that mean Paul was then directly addressing Ceaser?

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:33 AM
He didn't pray in the ask sense, which is the question. See the Lord's prayer/John 16.OK. Does this then mean the example of his prayer is not an example of a person praying to Jesus?



Ask? Where? He didn't ask. Would you ask? If you need to ask about yourself going to Jesus when you die, well, you shouldn't be asking for that you need saved first. So for you I will restate my answer... Stephen declared to Jesus, to receive his spirit.

The prayer is an example of someone praying to Jesus.



Everyone knows you don't have any. Even those that agree with you.Let me know when you are done investigating and we can post another one together.

So far, there are two examples, even though you disagree with both of them. I figure that right now, if I did, you'd have 3 that you will disagree with. In other words, won't do ya any good because quite frankly, I am under the impression that should I post all of them, you would disagree with them all, as you have done with two so far and you will simply remain standing where you are in this discussion.

You really don't consider the words... Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (his first breath of the prayer v59).... a prayer TOO JESUS?

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:35 AM
So the word he used as called out/appealed is the same word that Paul used in Acts 25:11 does that mean Paul was then directly addressing Ceaser?

He didn't use the same word plus this is called a contextual fallacy because the context of 25:11 is not related in any way or sense. Lets' stick to the scriptures where Stephen prayed to Jesus, and the verse where Paul did as well.

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:45 AM
I believe we make it unclear so we can stick to what we want to believe.What nonsense!....and what's the motivation for that? This is silly. Someone asks Jesus since they were saved, for years or decades, then they grow in the knowledge of Christ and learn Jesus says ask the Father and not him. They search the scriptures and don't find anyone asking anyone other than God or the Father. Never Jesus, not once. And you think they just want to continue to believe.....what? What scripture says? What possible motivation does anyone have for believing we should not ask Jesus other than it's what they find in scripture? I'm sorry but this is a sorry excuse for posturing. Why can't you accept it's actually a formative view based on scripture? I don't run around making this an issue, but if I am asked and when I teach the specifics on prayer, I teach this, because this is exactly what scripture says. People disagree, fine. People wanna continue as their conscience allows, fine. I don't care, but the text should be taught and you cannot pretend this is not viable.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:46 AM
He didn't use the same word plus this is called a contextual fallacy because the context of 25:11 is not related in any way or sense. Lets' stick to the scriptures where Stephen prayed to Jesus, and the verse where Paul did as well.Well you are assuming that Stephen prayed to Jesus and then saying that proves that Stephen prayed to Jesus ... isn't that the fallacy of circular reasoning???

The same word that is translated as prayer or called on or appealed to in this verse is the same word that is used in Acts 25:11 as to what Paul did concerning his appeal/calling on Ceaser. So I don't think it's impossible that Stephen was just calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus for Stephen's spirit to be received by God the Father.

Anyways you've said things like "it's pretty clear" and "clearer" to describe your understanding ... are you being gracious there and really meaning you are dogmatic about your understanding or are you open to that your understanding is not necessarily the TRUTH?

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:52 AM
OK. Does this then mean the example of his prayer is not an example of a person praying to Jesus?

So for you I will restate my answer... Stephen declared to Jesus, to receive his spirit.

The prayer is an example of someone praying to Jesus.Since you have an extremely short memory, I will remind you I've never said we can't pray to Jesus.



Let me know when you are done investigating and we can post another one together.I've been 'done' for a decade, though I've looked at it again and again over the years and now because it does seem a little odd sometimes, until I look at John 16 again. As done as I can get, so bring em on bro!



So far, there are two examples, even though you disagree with both of them. I figure that right now, if I did, you'd have 3 that you will disagree with. In other words, won't do ya any good because quite frankly, I am under the impression that should I post all of them, you would disagree with them all, as you have done with two so far and you will simply remain standing where you are in this discussion.

You really don't consider the words... Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (his first breath of the prayer v59).... a prayer TOO JESUS?Yes, I have looked at them all, from every angle, more times than I can count, but that doesn't mean you have any others, because there's really only two that can seem applicable and we've exhausted them here again. So don't pretend you have more but won't post them because I've already made up my mind. That's a cop out. Do it for the benefit of the reader, if you really care. Whatch_ya_got?

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:55 AM
Well you are assuming that Stephen prayed to Jesus and then saying that proves that Stephen prayed to Jesus ... isn't that the fallacy of circular reasoning???

There is no assuming here:

Act 7:59 As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, "Lord Jesus, please welcome me!"




The same word that is translated as prayer or called on or appealed to in this verse is the same word that is used in Acts 25:11 as to what Paul did concerning his appeal/calling on Ceaser.

So?



So I don't think it's impossible that Stephen was just calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus for Stephen's spirit to be received by God the Father.

The Father is never mentioned. Stephen was speaking to the Lord Jesus.




Anyways you've said things like "it's pretty clear" and "clearer" to describe your understanding ... are you being gracious there and really meaning you are dogmatic about your understanding or are you open to that your understanding is not necessarily the TRUTH?

The text is clear that's why I say it's clear. You just said I assumed Stephen was praying to Jesus yet it's clear he was. He says his name!

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 05:06 AM
The text is clear that's why I say it's clear. You just said I assumed Stephen was praying to Jesus yet it's clear he was. He says his name!Ok I'm calling out "Lord Jesus, please listen to me." Who am I talking to?

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 05:10 AM
And another question who receives our Spirit when we die? The Son, the Holy Spirit, or the Father, or all three?

dan
Mar 2nd 2016, 05:38 AM
God Of Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob, may the Truth Of Your Word become apparent to Your Flock, In Jesus' Name We Pray, Amen!

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 06:32 AM
Ok I'm calling out "Lord Jesus, please listen to me." Who am I talking to?

Donald Trump?....No wait, this is trick question. I guess I'll go with Jesus, the person you actually named.


And another question who receives our Spirit when we die? The Son, the Holy Spirit, or the Father, or all three?

The Trinity/God does.....so all.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 06:39 AM
Donald Trump?....No wait, this is trick question. I guess I'll go with Jesus, the person you actually named.Good one, lol. And yes it's a trick question. I was speaking to you. :) What if I say "Mary Jane I pray you do xyz" ... Because I actually named Mary Jane does that mean I'm praying to Mary Jane? Or if I say I prayed Mary Jane would xyz, because I actually named Mary Jane does that mean I'm praying to Mary Jane? Or how about if I call out for Mary Jane to catch me because I actually named Mary Jane does that mean I'm praying to Mary Jane to catch me?




The Trinity/God does.....so all.So who received Jesus' spirit? Anyways I'm not so sure it isn't the Father who receives our spirit when we die. That's what I would lean towards.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 06:54 AM
Good one, lol. And yes it's a trick question. I was speaking to you. :) What if I say "Mary Jane I pray you do xyz" ... Because I actually named Mary Jane does that mean I'm praying to Mary Jane?

Yes.




Or if I say I prayed Mary Jane would xyz, does that mean I'm praying to Mary Jane?

Yes.



Or how about if I call out for Mary Jane to catch me does that mean I'm praying to Mary Jane to catch me?

Yes.




So who received Jesus' spirit?

His Father.



Anyways I'm not so sure it isn't the Father who receives our spirit when we die. That's what I would lean towards.

It only matters who Stephen was talking/praying to. And that was Jesus.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:02 AM
Yes.



Yes.



Yes.Well I highly suggest you re-examine those answers of yours.




His Father.And that is who I think receives all our spirits when we die.




It only matters who Stephen was talking/praying to. And that was Jesus.Well if you think because I say I am praying that Mary Jane does xyz I'm praying "to Mary Jane" ... I have to question this because I don't see that such a prayer of mine would be a prayer to Mary Jane. I would consider it to be more a prayer to God concerning Mary Jane. I don't think it's as clear as you think it is. :)

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:08 AM
I would consider it to be more a prayer to God concerning Mary Jane.

Then you are breaking the rules of English grammar.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:13 AM
Then you are breaking the rules of English grammar.I don't think so. Who I am praying to is implied there ... God. No rules of English grammar broken. Saying I prayed Mary Jane would read Scripture, does not mean according to English grammar than I am praying TO MARY JANE.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:19 AM
I don't think so. Who I am praying to is implied there ... God. No rules of English grammar broken. Saying I prayed Mary Jane would read Scripture, does not mean according to English grammar than I am praying TO MARY JANE.

Let's get back to the scripture:

Act 7:59 As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, "Lord Jesus, please welcome me!"

Stephen spoke to Jesus not to anyone else according to any language grammar. Your position is very weak on this verse...

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:25 AM
Let's get back to the scripture:

Act 7:59 As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, "Lord Jesus, please welcome me!"

Stephen spoke to Jesus not to anyone else according to any language grammar. Your position is very weak on this verse...Let's get a bit better translation "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". And I already explained how it does not necessarily gramatically mean that Stephen spoke to Jesus or more specifically prayed to Jesus. Just because someone uses or calls upon the name of Jesus or even the name of God it doesn't necessarily mean that they are necessarily speaking to Jesus or God.

And you may believe my position is "weak" however that's not saying it's impossible. :) And I don't believe that everything that is said concerning the Father also concerns the Son. So I still believe that it is the Father that receives our spirit. Who is it that actually sends the Holy Spirit? The Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit or all three? (John 14:16)

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:37 AM
Let's get a bit better translation "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit".

Same thing. Stephen is talking to Jesus. He is not talking to the Father, Trump, Mary Jane or Slug.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:44 AM
Same thing. Stephen is talking to Jesus. He is not talking to the Father, Trump, Mary Jane or Slug.Yes we understand that's your understanding and I'm not saying that's impossible, I'm saying it's not the only way to understand it. One thing for sure if one is going to understand it like that one believes that it is the Lord Jesus that receives our spirit. Like I said I tend to believe it is the Father that receives our spirit just like it was for Jesus. :)

So your signature: James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Who do you understand "the Lord" is specifically in this verse?

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:49 AM
I also believe that what Stephen said there at the end was mostly for the purpose of those around him to hear what he said. This information was valuable for them. Stephen and Jesus and the Father they already understood all this. And I also want to make it clear that I personally don't have a problem if someone feels led to pray to Jesus. I mostly pray to the Father, I mostly talk to the Father, although there are times I give praise to Jesus. :)

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:59 AM
So your signature: James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Who do you understand "the Lord" is specifically in this verse?

Jesus.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James writes like Paul does. God is the Father and the Lord is Jesus.


Jas 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 08:01 AM
I also believe that what Stephen said there at the end was mostly for the purpose of those around him to hear what he said. This information was valuable for them.

Absolutely. He prayed to Jesus for all to witness. The entire "Don't pray to Jesus" is debunked.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 08:10 AM
Jesus.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James writes like Paul does. God is the Father and the Lord is Jesus.


Jas 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.So in James 4 James is talking about the Father except in verse 10, I guess that's what you are saying. I haven't really ever done a major investigation on this, so it's something to look into. Is there any place where Paul or James or writer of Acts used Kyriou where it is clear that it refers to the Father, that you know of?

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 08:45 AM
Is there any place where Paul or James or writer of Acts used Kyriou where it is clear that it refers to the Father, that you know of?

Not that I know of.

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:04 AM
I haven't really ever done a major investigation on this, so it's something to look into. Is there any place where Paul or James or writer of Acts used Kyriou where it is clear that it refers to the Father, that you know of?as pointed out a few times.....

Acts 4:26-30 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Oh, and
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 01:23 PM
as pointed out a few times.....

Acts 4:26-30 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Oh, and
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.OK thanks, I haven't seen these mentioned in this thread and I don't think they were however I could be wrong.

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 01:55 PM
Posts #61 and #139

Christinme
Mar 2nd 2016, 02:17 PM
Posts #61 and #139Ok thanks, I obviously didn't pay enough attention.

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 03:52 PM
Whatch_ya_got?Well, since you now make clear that it's OK to pray to Jesus... what was the issue again?

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 03:57 PM
People disagree, fine. People wanna continue as their conscience allows, fine. I don't care, but the text should be taught and you cannot pretend this is not viable.The text, both the examples through Stephen and Paul do teach praying to Jesus is an option and that, that option should not be denied under the pretense that "the Word" ONLY teaches that we pray to God the Father and NOT, God the Son.

By example, and an example in scripture IS VIABLE teaching... but by those examples, teachers CANNOT teach that Christians cannot pray to Jesus. Why? Because the examples of prayer through both Stephen and Paul refute such a teaching.

I mean, if I was in a class and the teacher began to teach that praying to God the Son is not allowed, I would immediately raise my hand and question the teaching and utilize the examples I've used so far. The teacher is at odds with the scriptures and since I really dislike false teaching, especially when I have two disciples, one an Apostle praying to Jesus as support that it IS OK to pray to God the Son.

So for the OP, the letter that a church gave to their congregation in an attempt to prevent the congregation from praying to Jesus during service... is unbiblical based on both text dealing with instruction of prayer (what you have raised) and also, the exampleS of prayer (what I have raised in addition to those you raise) that are found in the text. All text must be accounted for to have "teaching" be fully aligned with the text of the Bible.

divaD
Mar 2nd 2016, 04:15 PM
The text, both the examples through Stephen and Paul do teach praying to Jesus is an option and that, that option should not be denied under the pretense that "the Word" ONLY teaches that we pray to God the Father and NOT, God the Son.

By example, and an example in scripture IS VIABLE teaching... but by those examples, teachers CANNOT teach that Christians cannot pray to Jesus. Why? Because the examples of prayer through both Stephen and Paul refute such a teaching.

I mean, if I was in a class and the teacher began to teach that praying to God the Son is not allowed, I would immediately raise my hand and question the teaching and utilize the examples I've used so far. We'd be at odds because I really dislike false teaching when I have two disciples, one an Apostle praying to Jesus as support that it IS OK to pray to God the Son.

So for the OP, the letter that a church gave to their congregation in an attempt to prevent the congregation from praying to Jesus during service... is unbiblical based on both text dealing with instruction of prayer (what you have raised) and also, the exampleS of prayer (what I have raised in addition to those you raise) that are found in the text. All text must be accounted for to have "teaching" be fully aligned with the text of the Bible.

I've been following this thread off and on but haven't posted in it yet I don't think.

What if in the OP the letter was in regards to members praying to the Holy Spirit instead? As to me, can't say I have prayed to Jesus, though I may have and simply can't recall if I did, but I see this as nothing to make a big deal out of. I don't have a problem with it myself and can't see why others would either, yet some apparently do. But if one were praying to the Holy Spirit instead, such as...Dear Holy Spirit....insert prayer...in your name I pray, amen. I might find issue with that and feel it doesn't seem the normal thing to do. Jesus is the mediator between man and God, not the Holy Spirit, or least I don't think so anyway. As to the Holy Spirit, no doubt He interacts with man, but are we to pray to Him though?

jaybird
Mar 2nd 2016, 06:39 PM
Absolutely. He prayed to Jesus for all to witness. The entire "Don't pray to Jesus" is debunked.

you can go back and forth all day on who stephen and paul prayed to in these 2 examples. but the truth of it is, Jesus never taught it. i dont think its proper to add to what He taught. i think He made it clear how to pray, to the Father. i think He made it clear of His own role in prayers, we can ask in His name, but the prayer still goes to the Father.
it kinda makes you wonder. when Jesus taught the "in My name" praying, you would think one of the disciples would have immediately asked, in that case why not just pray straight to you. but Jesus never teaches this and i think there is a good reason for it.

uric3
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:07 PM
you can go back and forth all day on who stephen and paul prayed to in these 2 examples. but the truth of it is, Jesus never taught it. i dont think its proper to add to what He taught. i think He made it clear how to pray, to the Father. i think He made it clear of His own role in prayers, we can ask in His name, but the prayer still goes to the Father.
it kinda makes you wonder. when Jesus taught the "in My name" praying, you would think one of the disciples would have immediately asked, in that case why not just pray straight to you. but Jesus never teaches this and i think there is a good reason for it.

This tread has been to the point that it's splitting nose hairs but to your comment above just wow... the part bolded just blew me away... that is a very dangerous and slippery slope there my friend. Lets look at a few things that would happen if you truly took that stance.

1. Gentiles - no longer saved... it wasn't until Acts 10 some years after the death of Christ that it was okay to preach to Gentiles look at Acts 11 where Peter gets questioned to no end about what he did and he had to defend himself.

2. We could still bind the OT. Look at Acts 15 there are those trying to bind old Jewish laws... we see in Gal that if we do that we have fallen from grace.

There are countless others but all the letters and documents in the NT are binding scripture as it was all inspired by God through the Holy Spirit. They have so much more in them for us to glean from besides the original 4 gospels... to say it isn't in red letters then it don't matter is a wee bit scary.

Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but that statement is just mind boggling. :o

I must admit this has been a pretty interesting study as I never expected it to be that big a question... guess I was wrong on that front...

jaybird
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:10 PM
This tread has been to the point that it's splitting nose hairs but to your comment above just wow... the part bolded just blew me away... that is a very dangerous and slippery slope there my friend. Lets look at a few things that would happen if you truly took that stance.

1. Gentiles - no longer saved... it wasn't until Acts 10 some years after the death of Christ that it was okay to preach to Gentiles look at Acts 11 where Peter gets questioned to no end about what he did and he had to defend himself.

2. We could still bind the OT. Look at Acts 15 there are those trying to bind old Jewish laws... we see in Gal that if we do that we have fallen from grace.

There are countless others but all the letters and documents in the NT are binding scripture and have so much more in them for us to glean from besides the original 4 gospels... to say it isn't in red letters then it don't matter is a wee bit scary.

Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but that statement is just mind boggling. :o

I must admit this has been a pretty interesting study as I never expected it to be that big a question... guess I was wrong on that front...

maybe i am mistaken. please direct me to a scripture where Jesus teaches to pray to Him.

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:27 PM
maybe i am mistaken. please direct me to a scripture where Jesus teaches to pray to Him.jaybird, in my own evaluating of the edification throughout this thread, something came to mind concerning Jesus' teaching concerning prayer.

If we, as a church, are to follow Jesus' teaching of prayer, then NO ONE would pray at all openly in a church. Prayer would be done in private, in a "closet" or separated from others.

But what do the examples of prayer we are given show us when we plan to apply Jesus' teaching about prayer?

Do all the examples in the Bible of people praying together defy Jesus' FULL teaching about prayer? I would say YES. Jesus teaches to pray in private, he even gives us HIS example by separating Himself from the disciples when He prayed as in support of His instruction.

So, if you or anyone want to advocate Jesus' teaching about prayer and while doing so, disregard the examples of prayer from ALL the disciples... then why is praying with others NOT a NOGO in your eyes? Or is it a NOGO and due to Jesus' teachings, you will not pray with others and do ALL praying as Jesus prayed... separated from others?

Jesus clearly taught that when you prayer, be alone and in private, then you can pray. However, there are MANY examples of corporate prayer throughout the NT.

That is why I show us all that BOTH instruction AND examples must be applied for a teaching to be truly aligned with the scriptures.

People prayed to Jesus, we HAVE examples. We have Jesus' instruction... TOGETHER, we can come to be aligned with scripture when we pray.

Stonesoffire
Mar 2nd 2016, 07:52 PM
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

"That day"...

What I believe Jesus is saying here...that the focus of all His disciples and followers, and even all of Israel has been on Him, but when He rises from death and ascends and sends Holy Spirit back...they will understand in that day that it has been the plan all along of Father God to bring this about.

A plan where man no longer is separated from Gods love. That Father Himself planned to overthrow His enemy and take back His possession...His whole creation.

There's a song that the Catholic Charasmatics sang during their movement out of Notre Dame, God and man at table hath sat down.

This is that day. When we see Father in this light of revelation, our hearts are no longer fearful of an "angry" God, our prayers are directed to Him....in the name of His precious Son. It's their offering not just one, but both, offering self to save us all.

Holy Spirit then is the One who reveals these things to us.

To make things simple...if we say Lord God...we address both.

But, there is no law when in love. Then our words are spoken out of power. :)

jaybird
Mar 2nd 2016, 09:35 PM
jaybird, in my own evaluating of the edification throughout this thread, something came to mind concerning Jesus' teaching concerning prayer.

If we, as a church, are to follow Jesus' teaching of prayer, then NO ONE would pray at all openly in a church. Prayer would be done in private, in a "closet" or separated from others.

But what do the examples of prayer we are given show us when we plan to apply Jesus' teaching about prayer?

Do all the examples in the Bible of people praying together defy Jesus' FULL teaching about prayer? I would say YES. Jesus teaches to pray in private, he even gives us HIS example by separating Himself from the disciples when He prayed as in support of His instruction.

So, if you or anyone want to advocate Jesus' teaching about prayer and while doing so, disregard the examples of prayer from ALL the disciples... then why is praying with others NOT a NOGO in your eyes? Or is it a NOGO and due to Jesus' teachings, you will not pray with others and do ALL praying as Jesus prayed... separated from others?

Jesus clearly taught that when you prayer, be alone and in private, then you can pray. However, there are MANY examples of corporate prayer throughout the NT.

That is why I show us all that BOTH instruction AND examples must be applied for a teaching to be truly aligned with the scriptures.

People prayed to Jesus, we HAVE examples. We have Jesus' instruction... TOGETHER, we can come to be aligned with scripture when we pray.

but praying to the Father was how it was always done, this is the manner in which our Lords anointed prophets, kings and priest did it, and its how the Son did it. to do it in a different way one would need the authority of the Father or the Son.

Slug1
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:19 PM
but praying to the Father was how it was always done, this is the manner in which our Lords anointed prophets, kings and priest did it, and its how the Son did it. to do it in a different way one would need the authority of the Father or the Son.

I'm not understanding what you mean. If Jesus instructs that praying to the Father is to be done privately and we have examples of corporate prayer by members of the Body in tue NT, this shows us that prayer is not done exactly as Jesus instructed. We always have to account for BOTH instrction and examples when learning from scriptures.

jaybird
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:23 PM
This tread has been to the point that it's splitting nose hairs but to your comment above just wow... the part bolded just blew me away... that is a very dangerous and slippery slope there my friend. Lets look at a few things that would happen if you truly took that stance.

1. Gentiles - no longer saved... it wasn't until Acts 10 some years after the death of Christ that it was okay to preach to Gentiles look at Acts 11 where Peter gets questioned to no end about what he did and he had to defend himself.

2. We could still bind the OT. Look at Acts 15 there are those trying to bind old Jewish laws... we see in Gal that if we do that we have fallen from grace.

There are countless others but all the letters and documents in the NT are binding scripture as it was all inspired by God through the Holy Spirit. They have so much more in them for us to glean from besides the original 4 gospels... to say it isn't in red letters then it don't matter is a wee bit scary.

Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but that statement is just mind boggling. :o

I must admit this has been a pretty interesting study as I never expected it to be that big a question... guess I was wrong on that front...

your point on the gentiles, they were never forbidden from worshiping and were welcome at the temple. their are many examples of this in the Hebrew bible. from what i remember Solomon was told not to turn away the nations from the temple. how many times does our Lord tell us the Jews were to be an example, so who exactly do you think they were an example to?
and i do not appreciate the "slippery slope" "my friend" tone. I am a 42 year old man dont talk to me like a am a child.

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:33 PM
Well, since you now make clear that it's OK to pray to Jesus... what was the issue again?I've made both clear throughout. You also have said there's different types of prayer and if you can't figure out, based on the text and my posts, which type is never to Jesus, what more can I say?

jaybird
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:34 PM
I'm not understanding what you mean. If Jesus instructs that praying to the Father is to be done privately and we have examples of corporate prayer by members of the Body in tue NT, this shows us that prayer is not done exactly as Jesus instructed. We always have to account for BOTH instrction and examples when learning from scriptures.

corporate prayer - an assembly being led in worship?
are you asking how do i know corporate prayer is ok when we dont have Jesus teaching on it?

we have Jesus and His disciples going to the temple. Elijah and Solomon lead prayers. im sure there are more examples.

Noeb
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:43 PM
The text, both the examples through Stephen and Paul do teach praying to JesusStephen didn't ask anything and Paul wasn't asking Jesus.



is an option and that, that option should not be denied under the pretense that "the Word" ONLY teaches that we pray to God the Father and NOT, God the Son.It only teaches to ask the Father



By example, and an example in scripture IS VIABLE teaching... but by those examples, teachers CANNOT teach that Christians cannot pray to Jesus.No one has



I mean, if I was in a class and the teacher began to teach that praying to God the Son is not allowed, I would immediately raise my hand and question the teaching and utilize the examples I've used so far.So would I, but then I'd clarify we are not supposed to ask the Son.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:50 PM
Oh, and
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


That's Christ:


Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Christ is called the Almighty!



Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Christ will be our God and we his son...ie: Christ will be a Father to us as Paul mentioned.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:53 PM
you can go back and forth all day on who stephen and paul prayed to in these 2 examples. but the truth of it is, Jesus never taught it.

That's fully irrelevant. Scripture has examples of people praying to Jesus and Jesus does not rebuke them. There is nothing wrong with praying to Jesus and the very idea that it is wrong is seriously odd.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:56 PM
maybe i am mistaken. please direct me to a scripture where Jesus teaches to pray to Him.

Praying is talking to God. Jesus is God and the disciples constantly talked to him and asked him for things.

ewq1938
Mar 2nd 2016, 11:59 PM
Stephen didn't ask anything and Paul wasn't asking Jesus.

Actually, Stephen asked TWO things, and Paul was speaking to Jesus, asking THREE times.

Noeb
Mar 3rd 2016, 01:33 AM
Jesus is God and the disciples constantly asked him for things.
Actually, Stephen asked TWO things, and Paul was speaking to Jesus, asking THREE times.Yet, not one verse ewq1938. Not one.

Noeb
Mar 3rd 2016, 01:34 AM
That's Christ:


Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Christ is called the Almighty!



Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Christ will be our God and we his son...ie: Christ will be a Father to us as Paul mentioned.Only you ewq1938....only you....

Noeb
Mar 3rd 2016, 01:54 AM
This tread has been to the point that it's splitting nose hairs but to your comment above just wow... the part bolded just blew me away... that is a very dangerous and slippery slope there my friend. Lets look at a few things that would happen if you truly took that stance.

1. Gentiles - no longer saved... it wasn't until Acts 10 some years after the death of Christ that it was okay to preach to Gentiles look at Acts 11 where Peter gets questioned to no end about what he did and he had to defend himself.

2. We could still bind the OT. Look at Acts 15 there are those trying to bind old Jewish laws... we see in Gal that if we do that we have fallen from grace.

There are countless others but all the letters and documents in the NT are binding scripture as it was all inspired by God through the Holy Spirit. They have so much more in them for us to glean from besides the original 4 gospels... to say it isn't in red letters then it don't matter is a wee bit scary.

Perhaps you didn't mean it like that but that statement is just mind boggling. :oHow about this? 'I don't think its proper to contradict to what He taught.' :)



I must admit this has been a pretty interesting study as I never expected it to be that big a question... guess I was wrong on that front...Now put yourself in your elder's shoes.

jaybird
Mar 3rd 2016, 02:07 AM
That's fully irrelevant. Scripture has examples of people praying to Jesus and Jesus does not rebuke them. There is nothing wrong with praying to Jesus and the very idea that it is wrong is seriously odd.

show me an example of where it is taught.
never said it was wrong, i said it was never taught.


Praying is talking to God. Jesus is God and the disciples constantly talked to him and asked him for things.
praying and talking are not the same. when Jesus was praying so hard blood was dripping from Him, does that sound like everyday talking?

uric3
Mar 3rd 2016, 03:46 AM
show me an example of where it is taught.
never said it was wrong, i said it was never taught.

I just have a question just for my understanding of how you view this.

Would this be a true statement to you. "If a practice was not taught by God the Father in the OT by him or the prophets or by Jesus in the NT then that practice isn't permitted due to the fact it wasn't taught or mentioned."

And my apologies if I offended you earlier as that was my intent. Just hadn't heard that view before and perhaps I still don't understand your point of view. So would this be a true statement to you.

"In the NT the only binding things to really be concerned with are in red letters that Jesus spoke and the rest isn't as important."

Please don't take offense as I mean none just trying to understand your point of view better.

jaybird
Mar 3rd 2016, 04:32 AM
I just have a question just for my understanding of how you view this.

Would this be a true statement to you. "If a practice was not taught by God the Father in the OT by him or the prophets or by Jesus in the NT then that practice isn't permitted due to the fact it wasn't taught or mentioned."

And my apologies if I offended you earlier as that was my intent. Just hadn't heard that view before and perhaps I still don't understand your point of view. So would this be a true statement to you.

"In the NT the only binding things to really be concerned with are in red letters that Jesus spoke and the rest isn't as important."

Please don't take offense as I mean none just trying to understand your point of view better.

this is one of the ways i view this. throughout the bible as far back as you go people have prayed to the Father, the Almighty sends His son, and He teaches pray to the Father. Jesus adds another prayer teaching, ask the Father in the Sons name and it will be given. all this and the prayers are still addressed to the Father. you have many examples of prayers throughout the bible, and out of all those prayers they are all (almost all) addressed to the Father, all but 2, that i am aware of. one is paul and this prayer no one can agree who the prayer is being addressed to. the 2nd is stephen. stephen was not one of the 12 Jesus sent out, i think he was a deacon technically he was a good teacher, but unless i could confirm what he said by the Father or Son, i would not use it as an example to change the way i pray.

and no worries, i did not mean to come off sounding hot headed.

ewq1938
Mar 3rd 2016, 05:55 AM
Yet, not one verse ewq1938. Not one.


We have been discussing the verses. As for the disciples asking Christ, why would I need to post those? We already all know that happened all the time.


Only you ewq1938....only you....

Just proving Jesus is the alpha and omega and that he would be a God and father to us.

ewq1938
Mar 3rd 2016, 05:58 AM
show me an example of where it is taught.

Just read the thread. We have been discussing them.



never said it was wrong, i said it was never taught.

It doesn't need to be taught. We have examples of it being done.



praying and talking are not the same.

They are when talking to God.




when Jesus was praying so hard blood was dripping from Him, does that sound like everyday talking?

No it sounds like a very scared and anxious man pleading with his Father. Besides, no blood was there only drops of sweat that were like drops of blood not were drops of blood.

jaybird
Mar 3rd 2016, 06:15 AM
Just read the thread. We have been discussing them.
and i still do not see an example




It doesn't need to be taught. We have examples of it being done.

can these examples be confirmed by the Father or Son?




They are when talking to God.

most dont "pray" to the Almighty in the same manner as they would "talk" to their buddy about fishing


No it sounds like a very scared and anxious man pleading with his Father. Besides, no blood was there only drops of sweat that were like drops of blood not were drops of blood.

i have worked in 110 degree heat and seen men sweat like it was raining on them. never did i think it was like blood. why would the bible say the sweat was like blood when it was only sweat. i think there is much more to it.
it makes little difference, the point was Jesus was not merely having a chat and talking, He was praying.