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always
Mar 3rd 2016, 05:36 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by always http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=3295323#post3295323)
Bravo! I agree with you Keck, we as Christians have to understand it is not by force that we do anything, but through the Love of Christ when one religion dictates, that love diminshes and is not of God.






= Keck I would like to speak to this but in another thread.


I want to discuss this as well from a scriptural view, I feel that is why there are some differences in believers belief about issues. I do not feel it is scripture for us to think that we can force another to live a Christian life.

keck553
Mar 3rd 2016, 06:00 PM
Good thread. I want to add to this, but it may be several hours.

Moose
Mar 3rd 2016, 06:20 PM
I want to discuss this as well from a scriptural view, I feel that is why there are some differences in believers belief about issues. I do not feel it is scripture for us to think that we can force another to live a Christian life.

Well said, we don;t force only God does search a man and convicts them. He says, we did not choose Him but He chose us.

Protective Angel
Mar 3rd 2016, 06:24 PM
Yes bravo always. I'll be back later.

Golgotha
Mar 3rd 2016, 06:36 PM
I want to discuss this as well from a scriptural view, I feel that is why there are some differences in believers belief about issues. I do not feel it is scripture for us to think that we can force another to live a Christian life.

Explain what excommunication is about as discussed in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter at this link below?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+5&version=KJV

Or even withdrawing from wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith that do not follow after the traditions taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 3 rd chapter at this link below;

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+5&version=KJV

Surely, if the church does not discipline, when God comes to judge His House, He will; see Hebrews 12 th chapter at the link below.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+5&version=KJV

Yes.. even Jesus taught discipline as a means to correct a brother that have gone astray.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Now if you are talking about forcing someone to be a believer in Jesus Christ, then that's different. Only God can draw men unto the Son to reveal His Son to them so they can believe as it is on God to cause the increase.

But forcing a saved believer to live the christian life; it is Biblical to correct, to rebuke, ad even withdraw from fellowshipping with that saved, but unrepentant believer in the hopes that it will lead him to repentance.

chad
Mar 3rd 2016, 07:25 PM
Agreed. Jesus said in :

(Mat 16:24 KJV) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

First there must be repentance, a denial of self (flesh and the worlds ways) and a turning around in a persons life to follow after Jesus.

There is no point in trying to force a person to believe and accept the Christian faith when they have no interest in doing so. They will be full of unbelief, they will probably not take up their cross and follow after Jesus and live a life for God.



I want to discuss this as well from a scriptural view, I feel that is why there are some differences in believers belief about issues. I do not feel it is scripture for us to think that we can force another to live a Christian life. [/INDENT][/QUOTE]

always
Mar 3rd 2016, 07:33 PM
Explain what excommunication is about as discussed in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter at this link below?

Or even withdrawing from wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith that do not follow after the traditions taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 3 rd chapter at this link below;


I believe that it is biblical to rebuke, or chastise a believer, however as verse 6 in Chapter 5 states

....Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump... this is for the protection of the body more so than the believer that is acting not according to the word. There is no instructions to us that if he walks away after these measures have been taken, to keep pursuing him, we pray for his repentance, and give him to God

chad
Mar 3rd 2016, 08:13 PM
A person who is forced to believe will most likely not be a person who will truly worship the father (God) in spirit and in truth.


(John 4:23 NIV) Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Golgotha
Mar 3rd 2016, 08:16 PM
I believe that it is biblical to rebuke, or chastise a believer, however as verse 6 in Chapter 5 states

....Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump... this is for the protection of the body more so than the believer that is acting not according to the word. There is no instructions to us that if he walks away after these measures have been taken, to keep pursuing him, we pray for his repentance, and give him to God

I agree, but if that person comes up and ask questions, then we are free to lean on Him to minister to that believer.

always
Mar 3rd 2016, 08:36 PM
(John 4:23 NIV) Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Yes, and this is where I was coming from initially, there is a lot of discourse in the Body of Christ and I hope this stays in line with Bible Chat, because it should, about wanting to mandate laws and such to get individuals to conform to our spiritual beliefs.

The Word admonish us to ."Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's

Now understand me, I will to my utmost promote those things of Christ, but to use the law only to mandate my beliefs not understanding that it is ministry that brings about a converted life, is wrong I believe, for as many as you have stated if one is made to do something their heart is not in it.

Does that mean I stop preaching the Gospel, God forbid, the Word does state to go into the highways and hedges and compel .....

but we can't forced them to,

keck553
Mar 3rd 2016, 10:08 PM
Always -

Ok well first of all, we do not belong to the Roman Empire, secondly it was the same Sadducees who said "We have no God, Caesar is our god..." who mocked Jesus with the Roman coin, but this is worthy of another thread, but I just wanted to say I do not see this idiom expanded to the same principal you may see it in (which I admit is a common interpretation).

But anyway to the point - My post in the other thread was my personal belief and standard that I (personally) do not consider someone's faith when I choose them as a candidate. Their oath of office is not to abide in Scripture, but to abide in the authority of whatever governing constitution they serve, be that local, state or national. I happen to believe that was the founders intent, but I can only apply that standard to my own decisions, and my aim is not to be hypocritical on that.

As to legislating "Christianity," I have a few thoughts from a couple of different perspectives about that, but I want start that conversation with this -

Charity, for example, feeding the widows and orphans is a primary Judeo-Christian value. So why is that value being forced on "the world?" Shouldn't an atheist be able to deny that value?

Can you justify imposing this Christian value while at the same time arguing that we should not impose marriage between one man and one woman on an atheist?

keck553
Mar 3rd 2016, 10:49 PM
And hopefully this post won't distract any response to my previous post, but here is another "perspective" I thought about, and it's based on 2 Chronicles 7:14

"if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

Note God says "if MY people....." - if all Scripture is indeed profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, we should realize that 2 Chronicles 7:14 is speaking to believers, not unbelievers - today, even right now.

So this is what God is saying in our time paraphrased -

"Christians - if you humble yourselves and pray and seek My Face and repent from your evil ways, then I will hear from heaven and heal your land."

This is God speaking to me - and all believers, imploring us to repent. Repent, you say? Evil ways you say? Yes, I do say and I will preach this to my own soul. So what does God see as "evil ways?" I believe God sees His people doing evil from a different standard. A Christian who is given an opportunity to help someone in despair, but chooses to ignore their need? God sees that as evil for a Christian. How about that car that just parked in front of your mailbox waiting for their child to come out of school? Does a Christian storm out and demand they move out of "my mail box space" or is it an opportunity to minister to the driver? Maybe the driver is having marital problems, maybe a family member is ill.....I think God sees a Christian storming out and yelling at the person as evil.

We are held to a very high standard as believers. Much higher than "the world." The world is already condemned, so piling on the condemnation is rather fruitless, is it not?

But what does God care about? What is God's will for His people? Don't Christians believe that God's will for us to be transformed into the image of His Son? Shouldn't that be the focus of our prayers? And if we truly are humble and seeking, are the circumstances placed in our path a stumbling block, or are they opportunities for us to be in God's will, that is to transform ourselves in the image of His Son? There will always be two paths we can go on, but only one will lead us to godliness.

I heard a prayer request at a gathering last night, a request to "pray for our leaders" to "get this country back to the Christian nation it once was." I had difficulty with that request. First, how do I pray for a "leader?" Do I pray for God to give them a clear opportunity to accept God or reject Him? Do I pray that somehow they act as a disciple of Christ? And what about "this nation?" Was this nation ever a Christian nation? I understand the foundation of our country is based on Biblical values, but are these specific values unique to Judeo-Christian faith? Doesn't general revelation instill these values into all of mankind? Doesn't everyone naturally want to preserve their offspring? Doesn't everyone naturally know stealing is wrong? That union of same sex couples has no profit in society/humanity? Is it right to throw all these values into the Christian faith exclusively?

If true, then what part of "Christianity" is actually legislated?

always
Mar 3rd 2016, 11:00 PM
Alright Praise the Lord good discussion, have to get ready for a church meeting, but I will be back for this one Keck.

LifeSong
Mar 3rd 2016, 11:18 PM
I have a friend who is not religious, she is one of my best friends. She gets mad at me if I post too much religious stuff on FB and does not want to talk about it.... so I resort to just praying for her. God can do far more than I can,

My cousin used to be religious, now is married to an atheist and is one herself. Any time I post religious stuff she always has a snarky response. I pray for her also.

We cannot force people to listen to us or accept Christ, all we can do is to be there and talk when the opportunity arrives and allows itself. Then just leave the rest to God.

keck553
Mar 3rd 2016, 11:51 PM
Alright Praise the Lord good discussion, have to get ready for a church meeting, but I will be back for this one Keck.

Lord, bless this assembly of your people and rest your Spirit on my brothers and sisters this very day; hear their petitions and give them peace that surpasses all understanding!

chad
Mar 4th 2016, 12:11 AM
When Jesus was on earth, he came to preach and proclaim the gospel. Some believed and accepted, others did not. Jesus did not stop proclaiming the gospel because some were not interested, so in the same way we also proclaim the gospel - even though some people may not be interested.

Each person has to make a choice for themselves. We can only be a part of sowing the seed in sharing the faith, it is up to other people if they want to listen, believe, repent and become a follower of Christ.




Yes, and this is where I was coming from initially, there is a lot of discourse in the Body of Christ and I hope this stays in line with Bible Chat, because it should, about wanting to mandate laws and such to get individuals to conform to our spiritual beliefs.

The Word admonish us to ."Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's

Now understand me, I will to my utmost promote those things of Christ, but to use the law only to mandate my beliefs not understanding that it is ministry that brings about a converted life, is wrong I believe, for as many as you have stated if one is made to do something their heart is not in it.

Does that mean I stop preaching the Gospel, God forbid, the Word does state to go into the highways and hedges and compel .....

but we can't forced them to,

Protective Angel
Mar 4th 2016, 02:19 AM
And hopefully this post won't distract any response to my previous post, but here is another "perspective" I thought about, and it's based on 2 Chronicles 7:14

"if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

Note God says "if MY people....." - if all Scripture is indeed profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, we should realize that 2 Chronicles 7:14 is speaking to believers, not unbelievers - today, even right now.

So this is what God is saying in our time paraphrased -

"Christians - if you humble yourselves and pray and seek My Face and repent from your evil ways, then I will hear from heaven and heal your land."

This is God speaking to me - and all believers, imploring us to repent. Repent, you say? Evil ways you say? Yes, I do say and I will preach this to my own soul. So what does God see as "evil ways?" I believe God sees His people doing evil from a different standard. A Christian who is given an opportunity to help someone in despair, but chooses to ignore their need? God sees that as evil for a Christian. How about that car that just parked in front of your mailbox waiting for their child to come out of school? Does a Christian storm out and demand they move out of "my mail box space" or is it an opportunity to minister to the driver? Maybe the driver is having marital problems, maybe a family member is ill.....I think God sees a Christian storming out and yelling at the person as evil.

We are held to a very high standard as believers. Much higher than "the world." The world is already condemned, so piling on the condemnation is rather fruitless, is it not?

But what does God care about? What is God's will for His people? Don't Christians believe that God's will for us to be transformed into the image of His Son? Shouldn't that be the focus of our prayers? And if we truly are humble and seeking, are the circumstances placed in our path a stumbling block, or are they opportunities for us to be in God's will, that is to transform ourselves in the image of His Son? There will always be two paths we can go on, but only one will lead us to godliness.

I heard a prayer request at a gathering last night, a request to "pray for our leaders" to "get this country back to the Christian nation it once was." I had difficulty with that request. First, how do I pray for a "leader?" Do I pray for God to give them a clear opportunity to accept God or reject Him? Do I pray that somehow they act as a disciple of Christ? And what about "this nation?" Was this nation ever a Christian nation? I understand the foundation of our country is based on Biblical values, but are these specific values unique to Judeo-Christian faith? Doesn't general revelation instill these values into all of mankind? Doesn't everyone naturally want to preserve their offspring? Doesn't everyone naturally know stealing is wrong? That union of same sex couples has no profit in society/humanity? Is it right to throw all these values into the Christian faith exclusively?

If true, then what part of "Christianity" is actually legislated?

Awesome post. Repped ya :)

Protective Angel
Mar 4th 2016, 03:03 AM
We cannot force another to believe. Very true.

Is there a path one can use to help unbelievers? Believers handbook, if you will.


Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

We hope we don't have to use this next page in the handbook.

Matt 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

keck553
Mar 4th 2016, 04:34 PM
One other thing about the verse that encourages believers to seek God's face and turn from our evil ways. This is an inward directive aimed at believers, and the process is not accomplished at some point in our lives. If we want this country to be blessed through us, we need to allow God's blessing to flow through us by seriously inspecting our own hearts and our own attitudes so that we know what our "wicked ways" are. The Bible often informs that our wicked ways are wicked in God's eyes. That is why we need to continually seek His Face, because there is no "list" of wicked ways we can scratch off. To whom much is given, much more is required.

It is well to be persecuted for the sake of Christ, but it is our own folly to be persecuted for the sake of our self-righteousness.

Protective Angel
Mar 4th 2016, 06:09 PM
One other thing about the verse that encourages believers to seek God's face and turn from our evil ways. This is an inward directive aimed at believers, and the process is not accomplished at some point in our lives. If we want this country to be blessed through us, we need to allow God's blessing to flow through us by seriously inspecting our own hearts and our own attitudes so that we know what our "wicked ways" are. The Bible often informs that our wicked ways are wicked in God's eyes. That is why we need to continually seek His Face, because there is no "list" of wicked ways we can scratch off. To whom much is given, much more is required.

It is well to be persecuted for the sake of Christ, but it is our own folly to be persecuted for the sake of our self-righteousness.

Amen ... Amen... :amen: ...

rom826
Mar 4th 2016, 06:32 PM
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is because I think everybody knows you can't force another to be a Christian. It seems to just be stating the obvious. I have heard people use this saying to say we should not witness with boldness to people or that we should not pray for other people's salvation. Yes there actually was a thread in this forum where some believers were saying we should not pray for another's salvation because "we can't force another to become a Christian". So I am asking if the OP can clarify what the purpose of this thread is? Also, I would like to ask if there actually is anybody out there who believes they can force another to become a Christian?

keck553
Mar 4th 2016, 08:20 PM
I think the OP's intent was

"Can we legislate people to act like Christians"

Stonesoffire
Mar 4th 2016, 10:59 PM
if we could legislate acts of Christianity, they wouldn't be Acts of the Holy Spirit as the scriptures portray.

keck553
Mar 6th 2016, 12:58 AM
Bumping thread for the OP

James_Roberts
Mar 6th 2016, 02:16 AM
I want to discuss this as well from a scriptural view, I feel that is why there are some differences in believers belief about issues. I do not feel it is scripture for us to think that we can force another to live a Christian life.


As much as we'd like to, we cannot believe for someone else, or force someone to believe or live a Christian life.

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. [NIV, Romans 14:22]


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [NASB, John 6:44]

We can not believe or have faith for someone else.

chad
Mar 6th 2016, 07:53 AM
Another reason we can not Force anyone to be a Christian is that Jesus wants Sheep, not Goats...



(John 10:24 KJV) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

(John 10:25 KJV) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

(John 10:26 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

(John 10:27 KJV) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

(John 10:28 KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Geoff Primanti
Mar 6th 2016, 08:05 AM
Charity never faileth (1 Corinthians 13:8). I'm not saying that this is force because when being wooed by chariy man always has a choice.

But is irresistible grace a reality as Calvinism teaches?

And if it is, might that be considered to be force in a certain kind of sense?

Geoff Primanti
Mar 6th 2016, 08:17 AM
And hopefully this post won't distract any response to my previous post, but here is another "perspective" I thought about, and it's based on 2 Chronicles 7:14

"if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

Note God says "if MY people....." - if all Scripture is indeed profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, we should realize that 2 Chronicles 7:14 is speaking to believers, not unbelievers - today, even right now.

So this is what God is saying in our time paraphrased -

"Christians - if you humble yourselves and pray and seek My Face and repent from your evil ways, then I will hear from heaven and heal your land."

This is God speaking to me - and all believers, imploring us to repent. Repent, you say? Evil ways you say? Yes, I do say and I will preach this to my own soul. So what does God see as "evil ways?" I believe God sees His people doing evil from a different standard. A Christian who is given an opportunity to help someone in despair, but chooses to ignore their need? God sees that as evil for a Christian. How about that car that just parked in front of your mailbox waiting for their child to come out of school? Does a Christian storm out and demand they move out of "my mail box space" or is it an opportunity to minister to the driver? Maybe the driver is having marital problems, maybe a family member is ill.....I think God sees a Christian storming out and yelling at the person as evil.

We are held to a very high standard as believers. Much higher than "the world." The world is already condemned, so piling on the condemnation is rather fruitless, is it not?

But what does God care about? What is God's will for His people? Don't Christians believe that God's will for us to be transformed into the image of His Son? Shouldn't that be the focus of our prayers? And if we truly are humble and seeking, are the circumstances placed in our path a stumbling block, or are they opportunities for us to be in God's will, that is to transform ourselves in the image of His Son? There will always be two paths we can go on, but only one will lead us to godliness.

I heard a prayer request at a gathering last night, a request to "pray for our leaders" to "get this country back to the Christian nation it once was." I had difficulty with that request. First, how do I pray for a "leader?" Do I pray for God to give them a clear opportunity to accept God or reject Him? Do I pray that somehow they act as a disciple of Christ? And what about "this nation?" Was this nation ever a Christian nation? I understand the foundation of our country is based on Biblical values, but are these specific values unique to Judeo-Christian faith? Doesn't general revelation instill these values into all of mankind? Doesn't everyone naturally want to preserve their offspring? Doesn't everyone naturally know stealing is wrong? That union of same sex couples has no profit in society/humanity? Is it right to throw all these values into the Christian faith exclusively?

If true, then what part of "Christianity" is actually legislated?

I also repped you my brother. i just want to add that it should not eve be that God should have to exhort His people to "turn from your wicked ways."

If anyone is in Christ he is a new creature. If the old comes back it is because the person is backslidden or never was saved!

keck553
Mar 6th 2016, 03:48 PM
I also repped you my brother. i just want to add that it should not eve be that God should have to exhort His people to "turn from your wicked ways."

If anyone is in Christ he is a new creature. If the old comes back it is because the person is backslidden or never was saved!

Well it shouldn't, but in reality there remains the battle with the flesh. Additionally His. people are held to a higher standard. Many times the Bible says we do evil ||| in His sight |||. That's not necessarity obvious in our. sight as we grow.and mature in Him.

always
Mar 7th 2016, 02:13 PM
Lord, bless this assembly of your people and rest your Spirit on my brothers and sisters this very day; hear their petitions and give them peace that surpasses all understanding!

Thank you for your prayers, the services were wonderful!

always
Mar 7th 2016, 02:29 PM
Always -

But anyway to the point - My post in the other thread was my personal belief and standard that I (personally) do not consider someone's faith when I choose them as a candidate.

I can appreciate your viewpoint however for me, that is what voting is about, voting for someone that has my best interest at heart practically and spiritually, I can not force anyone to change their beliefs, however I don't have to give them my vote either., now as the scripture states we are to be of one mind and that mind being in Christ Jesus, and that is in every aspects of our lives.


Their oath of office is not to abide in Scripture, but to abide in the authority of whatever governing constitution they serve, be that local, state or national. I happen to believe that was the founders intent, but I can only apply that standard to my own decisions, and my aim is not to be hypocritical on that.

The founders were fallible men, whatever their intent was does not surpass our faith, their oath of office has no relevance to me


As to legislating "Christianity," I have a few thoughts from a couple of different perspectives about that, but I want start that conversation with this -

Charity, for example, feeding the widows and orphans is a primary Judeo-Christian value. So why is that value being forced on "the world?" Shouldn't an atheist be able to deny that value?

I don't think that an atheist ought to be just automatically presumed to not have that value, his problem is a belief problem, there are many so called atheist that do charity work, for the sake of just doing the right thing. It is the right thing that when we have an abundance we help those who lack, there is no excuse to not to because the poor we will have with us always


Can you justify imposing this Christian value while at the same time arguing that we should not impose marriage between one man and one woman on an atheist?

Yes, I can, and again, being an atheist does not automatically mean that they do not believe in a traditional marriage their problem is their belief in God, that does not mean that they automatically support non- scripture methods of giving or those things that God calls abominations.

Fenris
Mar 7th 2016, 02:30 PM
I think the OP's intent was

"Can we legislate people to act like Christians"

Can we legislate that people live moral lives? Can we pass laws making it illegal for someone to do to another what they wouldn't want done to themselves? Sure, why not?

always
Mar 7th 2016, 02:43 PM
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is because I think everybody knows you can't force another to be a Christian. It seems to just be stating the obvious. I have heard people use this saying to say we should not witness with boldness to people or that we should not pray for other people's salvation.

There is a lot of discourse in the Body of Christ, when one does not vote for a particular candidate, because of their decisions about this or that topic, many times I have stated that you cannot legislate morality, and that statement brings criticism, however I don't believe that laws much less than we, change people, and with that mindset there is a freedom for me to look at situations from more than one point of view. The homeless, the orphans, veterans, and seniors and so on...... and not just one topic aim at acts people have to have a heart change to correct


Yes there actually was a thread in this forum where some believers were saying we should not pray for another's salvation because "we can't force another to become a Christian". So I am asking if the OP can clarify what the purpose of this thread is? Also, I would like to ask if there actually is anybody out there who believes they can force another to become a Christian?


I was always taught that an individual's will had to be changed and that was the prayer that you pray for ones, that are rebellious, I hope that the thread you mentioned was in reference to those ones perceived as reprobated, and yes there is no reason to pray for their salvation but one has to be shown that in the Spirit, of an individual.

keck553
Mar 7th 2016, 05:24 PM
Can we legislate that people live moral lives? Can we pass laws making it illegal for someone to do to another what they wouldn't want done to themselves? Sure, why not?

Well I certainly would not have wanted to be aborted and tossed out like gatbage.

keck553
Mar 7th 2016, 05:31 PM
I can appreciate your viewpoint however for me, that is what voting is about, voting for someone that has my best interest at heart practically and spiritually, I can not force anyone to change their beliefs, however I don't have to give them my vote either., now as the scripture states we are to be of one mind and that mind being in Christ Jesus, and that is in every aspects of our lives.

I agree that instruction pertains to the Church, such as voting in elders, however I do not agree that instruction extends to believers voting in a secular nation. In my opinion your statement is a mis-application of Scripture.



The founders were fallible men, whatever their intent was does not surpass our faith, their oath of office has no relevance to me

I was talking about OUR elected servants' oaths. That has no relevance to you?



I don't think that an atheist ought to be just automatically presumed to not have that value, his problem is a belief problem, there are many so called atheist that do charity work, for the sake of just doing the right thing. It is the right thing that when we have an abundance we help those who lack, there is no excuse to not to because the poor we will have with us always

Then why can't I assume atheists share other values, such as marriage being between one man and one woman, that abortion is murder, that stealing is wrong, that coveting your neighbors stuff is destructive, or that self defense is an innate right of man?

James_Roberts
Mar 7th 2016, 05:48 PM
Well I certainly would not have wanted to be aborted and tossed out like gatbage.
No. Your various body parts would have been salvaged and sold to the highest bidder. Ain't that grand?

keck553
Mar 7th 2016, 06:48 PM
No. Your various body parts would have been salvaged and sold to the highest bidder. Ain't that grand?

It's odd, knowing that Christ paid for them with His blood, and that nothing else created by God has such value. Yet how little some value the most weak and vulnerable among us.

always
Mar 7th 2016, 07:23 PM
It's odd, knowing that Christ paid for them with His blood, and that nothing else created by God has such value. Yet how little some value the most weak and vulnerable among us.

And it is a blessing to know that not being born in sin, those out of the knowledge cannot keep them from being safe in the Father's arms now,

keck553
Mar 7th 2016, 08:03 PM
And it is a blessing to know that not being born in sin, those out of the knowledge cannot keep them from being safe in the Father's arms now,

The Bible disagrees with you

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

James_Roberts
Mar 7th 2016, 08:19 PM
The Bible disagrees with you

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

So do you consider murdering an unborn baby a good deed? Seriously?
Psalms 51:5.

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. [NIV]

always
Mar 7th 2016, 08:50 PM
:amen::agree::eek:

James Roberts, thank you, I was wrong,

Keck, we have talked about this before and you have never given me this scripture,

To all that I have debated this with, I don't remember anyone giving me this scripture, I will not disagree or argue with the Word, Praise the Lord for the edification

James_Roberts
Mar 7th 2016, 10:06 PM
:amen::agree::eek:

James Roberts, thank you, I was wrong,

Keck, we have talked about this before and you have never given me this scripture,

To all that I have debated this with, I don't remember anyone giving me this scripture, I will not disagree or argue with the Word, Praise the Lord for the edification
We are all wrong sometimes. Welcome to the club. But God's word is truth. May God richly bless you.

keck553
Mar 7th 2016, 10:31 PM
:amen::agree::eek:

James Roberts, thank you, I was wrong,

Keck, we have talked about this before and you have never given me this scripture,

To all that I have debated this with, I don't remember anyone giving me this scripture, I will not disagree or argue with the Word, Praise the Lord for the edification

The only thing I truely feel secure about is continuing to seek His Face and His righteousness. And He has put you in my path to correct me on more than a few things.

God bless you...

keck553
Mar 7th 2016, 11:04 PM
So on the flip side of this, who do we avoid "legislating people to act like Christians?"

Any ideas? What would be the litmus test for that?

Geoff Primanti
Mar 8th 2016, 12:01 AM
Well it shouldn't, but in reality there remains the battle with the flesh. Additionally His. people are held to a higher standard. Many times the Bible says we do evil ||| in His sight |||. That's not necessarity obvious in our. sight as we grow.and mature in Him.

Amen.

I came to the reaization practically yesterday through an encounter with the Holy Spirit in which He convicted me with power that I might know that I am a sinner by nature---thought I do not have to walk according to this nature. Jesus is the only way.

Geoff Primanti
Mar 8th 2016, 12:07 AM
Obviously the law doesn't have any power to save, but by legislating righteousness we define what those sins are that deserve punishment under governmental law.

And of course the law has its part in the process of bringing us to salvation; it shows us our sin so that we realize our need of the Saviour.

A lot of people on whom the law is enforced get saved, and even if they don't, at least they are locked up so they can't do it to someone else.

always
Mar 8th 2016, 01:34 PM
So on the flip side of this, who do we avoid "legislating people to act like Christians?"

Any ideas? What would be the litmus test for that?


Do not think that I don't believe in laws, laws are for the lawless, we as saints are under a law of love; but you have to remember, I believe that we are definitely in the last days and our Lord stated that there would be ones that he will send a strong delusion unto, and they will believe a lie, and there are ones that are of reprobated minds.

All we can do is vote our conscience and most of all our Spirit, but the discourse comes in the Body I feel when one focuses on one sin, sin is sin, abortion is no more a sin than jealousy, and when we as the Body jump on one sin, be it homosexuality, addiction, and yes abortion, and ones see jealousy, backbiting, and lying amongst us, our example is shot

keck553
Mar 8th 2016, 02:01 PM
Do not think that I don't believe in laws, laws are for the lawless, we as saints are under a law of love; but you have to remember, I believe that we are definitely in the last days and our Lord stated that there would be ones that he will send a strong delusion unto, and they will believe a lie, and there are ones that are of reprobated minds.

All we can do is vote our conscience and most of all our Spirit, but the discourse comes in the Body I feel when one focuses on one sin, sin is sin, abortion is no more a sin than jealousy, and when we as the Body jump on one sin, be it homosexuality, addiction, and yes abortion, and ones see jealousy, backbiting, and lying amongst us, our example is shot

I thought this thread was about forcing the lost to become Christians? Who is even proposing such a thing? I mean I can understand where laws like the blue laws are overreaching, but there are, as you say - natural moral issues that most people, lost or found adhere to. Paul say God puts these into everyone's soul and they only lose them when their perversions are given away to a reprobate mind. Do we really want such folks in charge of our families?

Didn't Paul reveal the purpose of the law was to reveal sin? If we allow moral corruption to be institutuionalsized, how much more will the lost not even know a standard exists to repent towards? How much more will God's morals be marginalized?

The reason for the focus is that our moral foundation is being chipped away, one inquity at a time. And each new perversion that gets mainstreaned into the world's culture draws attention, not just from beleivers, but many who care about the future of civilization. So I wouldn't limit the resistance to Christians. Homesexuality and abortion and other such actions that debase human value is outlawed in many non Christian nations.

James_Roberts
Mar 8th 2016, 03:03 PM
So on the flip side of this, who do we avoid "legislating people to act like Christians?"

Any ideas? What would be the litmus test for that?
Two things:

I would like to see people allowed to protect themselves against those who would do us harm.
I would like to see people protecting those who cannot protect themselves; namely, the unborn, and the physically and mentally challenged.

keck553
Mar 8th 2016, 05:10 PM
Two things:

I would like to see people allowed to protect themselves against those who would do us harm.
I would like to see people protecting those who cannot protect themselves; namely, the unborn, and the physically and mentally challenged.



These are natural rights that government is supposed to be restricted from infringing on. I don't think they fall into the category of "Christianizing."

always
Mar 8th 2016, 09:33 PM
These are natural rights that government is supposed to be restricted from infringing on. I don't think they fall into the category of "Christianizing."

Then I still have to hold to the fact that he who has an ear will hear, we are to be examples of and vessels to evangelize the message, we are to sow seeds, some are to water, some are to work the harvest, after we have done that and there are those that will not receive, we let them go believing by faith, that God will change that individual if not, it will not be because of what we haven't done

keck553
Mar 8th 2016, 10:08 PM
Then I still have to hold to the fact that he who has an ear will hear, we are to be examples of and vessels to evangelize the message, we are to sow seeds, some are to water, some are to work the harvest, after we have done that and there are those that will not receive, we let them go believing by faith, that God will change that individual if not, it will not be because of what we haven't done

I thought about this parable when I was returning from my business trip a couple of weeks ago. I came to realize the sower didn't just wake up one morning and toss seed out at random. A wise sower always prepares the soil before he sows the seed. In the culture that Jesus was speaking to, fields were often cut across (as we see in Matthew 5) we get a glimpse of a sower's field. While there are a lot of doctrinal teachings that come out of that Sabbath incident, I saw a few other things. First, they were cutting across a field, and apparently many others were too (including the Pharisees). Why?, I wondered. Well, walking around the field may have exceeded a "Sabbath's day walk," so they used a short cut through the field to reach the synagogue. So, we all know what happens. The path gets compressed by all the feet and the soil gets very hard. Also, when the sower prepares the field, he takes the rocks that come up and lines the borders with them as a barrier (still done to this day).

But when the sower goes to lay his seed (in the correct season), he's tossing it free hand. Some falls on that path, that shortcut and is trampled underfoot. Some fall on the rocks and the birds of the air eat it. Still other seed fall in that "twilight zone" - the edges of the path for example - and falters in the hot sun because the soil is wanting.

The bottom line is this - a wise sower prepares the soil. We can use this concept in many ways, from God preparing Israel for Jesus, to a simple act of developing a relationship of trust with a lost person before planting that seed.

But I do know this - prepared soil begins in Deuteronomy 6. That is it all starts in the home and goes forth from there. This is God's way. If our own house is not in order, we can not expect much as we go forth. I am not preaching "soul winning" here, but there is such a thing as throwing pearls to swine. I think a lot of times we do not cultivate the "soil" with the acts of love, integrity and selfless giving that testifies to the glory of our Lord before we "spread that seed."

Ok, rant over..

James_Roberts
Mar 8th 2016, 10:23 PM
Then I still have to hold to the fact that he who has an ear will hear, we are to be examples of and vessels to evangelize the message, we are to sow seeds, some are to water, some are to work the harvest, after we have done that and there are those that will not receive, we let them go believing by faith, that God will change that individual if not, it will not be because of what we haven't done
When someone is in need and you stand by and do nothing, how is that showing Christian love? Why would a non-believer ever be drawn to a faith that has no works? always, I agree with 100% here. As Christians, we must show Jesus in what we do and what we don't do. I fall short of that mark on way too many ocassions and my mind reminds me of things I should have done but didn't. I don't think of the things I did do right, that was the Holy Spirit and expected. I am forever appologizing and asking God's forgiveness for all the times I fall short. I am still a work in progress.

James_Roberts
Mar 8th 2016, 10:27 PM
Then I still have to hold to the fact that he who has an ear will hear, we are to be examples of and vessels to evangelize the message, we are to sow seeds, some are to water, some are to work the harvest, after we have done that and there are those that will not receive, we let them go believing by faith, that God will change that individual if not, it will not be because of what we haven't done
We won't know how many lives we have positively (or negatively) affected by our actions. I am saved by overhearing someone's testimony to another. He won't know how he affected me until Jesus tells him. We can't let our need for instant gratification get in the way of our Christian walk.