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newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 03:52 AM
Today people think they have to ask God to forgive them for the sins that God is no longer charging to their account in the first place. Ministers of righteousness would have people believe God is not totally reconciled in his mind. The great usurper and his fellow usurpers want to keep sin on the table of God’s justice today, as much in the age of grace as he has in the other ages.

Blain
Mar 31st 2016, 05:50 AM
I understand that because of the blood of Jesus and God's immense grace no matter how many times I screw up I am forgiven I don't have to fear a lightning bolt striking me because I am sinner, however his grace is also not a free ticket to sin.
I screw up much more than I want to and while I know I am always forgiven I still ask for forgiveness when I screw up out of respect for him.

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 06:04 AM
I understand that because of the blood of Jesus and God's immense grace no matter how many times I screw up I am forgiven I don't have to fear a lightning bolt striking me because I am sinner, however his grace is also not a free ticket to sin.
I screw up much more than I want to and while I know I am always forgiven I still ask for forgiveness when I screw up out of respect for him.

Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down. 


Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions. 


Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 


People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 


God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us.

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 08:54 AM
I understand that because of the blood of Jesus and God's immense grace no matter how many times I screw up I am forgiven I don't have to fear a lightning bolt striking me because I am sinner, however his grace is also not a free ticket to sin.
I screw up much more than I want to and while I know I am always forgiven I still ask for forgiveness when I screw up out of respect for him.

Rather than praying, “Please forgive me for that sin,” when we are supposed to be believing God is not counting it to our account, because he charged it to his son, we can say, “Thank you for the forgiveness we already have in Christ.”

Moose
Mar 31st 2016, 12:30 PM
Rather than praying, “Please forgive me for that sin,” when we are supposed to be believing God is not counting it to our account, because he charged it to his son, we can say, “Thank you for the forgiveness we already have in Christ.”

I agree with what you are saying knowing that His attributes are eternal (from beginning to end). Therefore His forgiveness is also eternal- He forgave us before we even made it here but i'm also confused because there are indications that our forgiveness is repeated several times and it actually depends on how we treat other people: like in our Lords prayer

Blain
Mar 31st 2016, 01:00 PM
Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down. 


Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions. 


Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 


People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 


God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us.

I wasn't talking about Christianizing the flesh either, I also keep my fleshly desires at bay however I don't do it with my own strength and my own efforts I allow God to help me and to empower me to do so I rely 100% on him and his power not my own. I have no room in my heart for pride or for any fleshly trait, now as for me not ever having to ask for forgiveness again I do so out of respect but I always have a repentant heart that is what makes the difference in knowing and understanding grace.

One who does not have a repentant heart sees grace as a free ticket to sin I have seen this many times and they don't understand grace, some however beat themselves up every time they screw up they don't understand how deep his grace is they believe they are filthy not good enough they believe they are to far gone and ask themselves how could God ever love for forgive someone like me?
These are the people that grace needs to be shown and taught to the most, they are bound by chains they place on themselves and Jesus has the key

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 02:52 PM
I agree with what you are saying knowing that His attributes are eternal (from beginning to end). Therefore His forgiveness is also eternal- He forgave us before we even made it here but i'm also confused because there are indications that our forgiveness is repeated several times and it actually depends on how we treat other people: like in our Lords prayer

Most people think in those terms because most people fail to properly understand justification, the cornerstone that comes prior to sanctification. If we misunderstand justification, we are going to have a difficult time understanding sanctification. 


Since people link a justified standing before God with performance of their own, they also link a sanctified standing before God with their own performance. And as a result, they believe the degree to which they stand sanctified in God’s eyes depends entirely upon the degree to which they remain holy in behavior. 


If they do not see themselves as being holy in conduct, they do not believe that God sees them as being holy, either. We need to understand that forgiveness was all upfront and all-inclusive, but when we accept this idea of conditional forgiveness/forgiveness on the installment plan; a little forgiveness here, a little forgiveness there, the need for new forgiveness for new sin, that is the atonement program of Israel, not the reconciliation program of the body of Christ.

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 03:09 PM
I wasn't talking about Christianizing the flesh either, I also keep my fleshly desires at bay however I don't do it with my own strength and my own efforts I allow God to help me and to empower me to do so I rely 100% on him and his power not my own. I have no room in my heart for pride or for any fleshly trait, now as for me not ever having to ask for forgiveness again I do so out of respect but I always have a repentant heart that is what makes the difference in knowing and understanding grace.

One who does not have a repentant heart sees grace as a free ticket to sin I have seen this many times and they don't understand grace, some however beat themselves up every time they screw up they don't understand how deep his grace is they believe they are filthy not good enough they believe they are to far gone and ask themselves how could God ever love for forgive someone like me?
These are the people that grace needs to be shown and taught to the most, they are bound by chains they place on themselves and Jesus has the key

Paul called the carnal believers at Corinth saints because even though they were carnal, they had believed Paul’s good news. Saint is God’s word for a believer, he sets us apart. Jesus Christ’s death was sufficient to satisfy God’s righteous demand for justice. 


When God looks at the believing sinner, God sees his very own son and what does Paul address every believer, even the carnal saints at Corinth? He calls them Saints! God’s attitude towards a believer does not fluctuate in response to action, it is not condition on our behavior.

Moose
Mar 31st 2016, 03:17 PM
Most people think in those terms because most people fail to properly understand justification, the cornerstone that comes prior to sanctification. If we misunderstand justification, we are going to have a difficult time understanding sanctification. 


Since people link a justified standing before God with performance of their own, they also link a sanctified standing before God with their own performance. And as a result, they believe the degree to which they stand sanctified in God’s eyes depends entirely upon the degree to which they remain holy in behavior. 


If they do not see themselves as being holy in conduct, they do not believe that God sees them as being holy, either. We need to understand that forgiveness was all upfront and all-inclusive, but when we accept this idea of conditional forgiveness/forgiveness on the installment plan; a little forgiveness here, a little forgiveness there, the need for new forgiveness for new sin, that is the atonement program of Israel, not the reconciliation program of the body of Christ.

I'm getting you but in Jesus' clear words:

Mat 6:11'Give us this day our daily bread. 12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Mat 18:33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'

Jesus even gives us a preview of what is going to be during judgement and it is very clear that our relationship with others is the key determinant (off course after believing He died for our sins and rose).
It is also said that all commandment is summarized into simply "love your neighbor" And this is the greatest commandment of all.

Mat 25:38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 04:27 PM
I'm getting you but in Jesus' clear words:

Mat 6:11'Give us this day our daily bread. 12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Mat 18:33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'


Before that kingdom could be realized, there was a prophetic event that had to take place first. The way Jesus taught has special application to that tribulation period to those people who were being taught to pray in this manner. This will be a very heartfelt prayer during the tribulation period. During the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Israelites will be under tremendous persecution from the antichrist. He will be putting Israelites to death for their faith. The Israelites will be praying at that time, “thy kingdom come” the promised earthly kingdom to be set up right here on earth, because the only hope of deliverance for the believing Israelites at that time, will be the coming of the king and setting up of the earthly kingdom. 


“Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” is a divine definition of the millennium. The kingdom is when the will of Yahweh is carried out in the earth to the same degree it is carried out in heaven. The Israelites have an earthly hope, they were promised the earth forever. At the time when Israel will be facing the wrath of Satan - the time that Israel was being prepared for when they were being taught how to pray - Satan will have been kicked out of the heaven and cast down to the earth and Yahweh’s will, will indeed be being done in the realm where Satan has just been cast out. 


This prayer is appropriate for the Israelites of that day, they will be praying at that time just as the disciples had been taught to pray. It is recited in churches across the country in our day. It is recited as though it is a prayer for today. While we are not to use vain repetition, it is recited like vain repetition as people stand up and uttering together. At the time this prayer was being taught to pray “our Father” meant that you recognized, if you were an Israelite, that you had a covenant relationship with Yahweh; you were his children. 


These saints of the earthly kingdom program will be praying in the day “Give us this day our daily bread.” They will be worrying about that day, not the next day as that earthly kingdom becomes a reality for those Israelites. “Debtors” Israel’s status as a nation above all nations depended on this very thing. The believers of Israel will be seeking forgiveness in respect to their willingness to forgive. Yahweh will not restore that nation to a place of national prominence above all nations of the earth until they adhere to the exhortation, forgive us our sins as WE (corporately) are willing to forgive those who have sinned against us.


Jesus even gives us a preview of what is going to be during judgement and it is very clear that our relationship with others is the key determinant (off course after believing He died for our sins and rose).
It is also said that all commandment is summarized into simply "love your neighbor" And this is the greatest commandment of all.

Mat 25:38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.



There will be a requirement to escape the judgment of God, and it will not be by anything that we do. We must be justified on the basis of believing in what Christ has already done on our behalf, but unless we qualify what believing in God means, our belief in God will do us absolutely no good! 


For anyone to think they are just before God through their performance, to think that they have perfected themselves with God through their behavior proves that they are a liar, and the truth is not in them. 


All people are wrath-worthy, there is none good, no not even one, we have all gone out of the way, we all are continually coming short of the righteousness of God himself, and therefore we are in need of a justification that will come totally apart from anything that we do. God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off the the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy! 


Religion continues to make sin the issue, and then gives people a way to take care of that problem. How many have grown up with the idea that God has to make a decision whether or not to forgive us for our sins? God has not held back his wrath because he is happy with who we think we are, or because he is satisfied with who we are trying to become. 


God has been long-suffering in holding back his wrath because he hopes that we will consider his goodness through what his son accomplished for us and flee to his grace. God wants us to change our mind about who we are from a fleshly perspective apart from Christ.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2016, 04:53 PM
Today people think they have to ask God to forgive them for the sins that God is no longer charging to their account in the first place. Ministers of righteousness would have people believe God is not totally reconciled in his mind. The great usurper and his fellow usurpers want to keep sin on the table of God’s justice today, as much in the age of grace as he has in the other ages.

Simon became a believer, accepted Christ and was baptized by Phillip, Simon is now a member of the Body of Christ. Yet, days/weeks later when the Apostles arrived and he sinned before Peter, what does Peter tell him? I will point out that what Simon is told by Peter completely refutes the meaning of what you are saying here.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.


If Simon believed as you do... what do you think he would do? I bet he'd tell Peter that he's repented once days/weeks ago and that he don't need to repent.

But yet, what does Simon do?

Let me know when I need to raise the issue of James 5:16 to refute more of what you are saying.

Moose
Mar 31st 2016, 04:53 PM
There will be a requirement to escape the judgment of God, and it will not be by anything that we do. We must be justified on the basis of believing in what Christ has already done on our behalf, but unless we qualify what believing in God means, our belief in God will do us absolutely no good! 


For anyone to think they are just before God through their performance, to think that they have perfected themselves with God through their behavior proves that they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.

I agree that our works especially towards righteousness are nothing. i.e trying hard to live by the law of Moses But you must understand there's a new covenant where the law is written in our hearts. How do we achieve this- believing in the words of Jesus or believing in Jesus who fulfills the law But Jesus also leaves us with a command to love our neighbors:

Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

Gal 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

You can never love God who you don't see and hate your brother who you see.

The expression of love to our neighbors or our interaction to our neighbors is only through our actions and our words. Jesus gives as a scenario during judgement and it is about love for our neighbors. Faith without actions is dead as always and just remember demons also know Jesus and they tremble- believing in Jesus alone does not do it.

James 2:19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 05:09 PM
I agree that our works especially towards righteousness are nothing. i.e trying hard to live by the law of Moses But you must understand there's a new covenant where the law is written in our hearts. How do we achieve this- believing in the words of Jesus or believing in Jesus who fulfills the law But Jesus also leaves us with a command to love our neighbors:

Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

Gal 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

You can never love God who you don't see and hate your brother who you see.

The expression of love to our neighbors or our interaction to our neighbors is only through our actions and our words. Jesus gives as a scenario during judgement and it is about love for our neighbors. Faith without actions is dead as always and just remember demons also know Jesus and they tremble- believing in Jesus alone does not do it.

James 2:19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Paul knew that his identity in Christ was not based upon his performance, he also knew that his identity in Christ was not based upon his success at loving others. Paul exercised himself according to what Paul called the law of Christ, preferring others above self. 


We can thank God that our identity with Christ is based solely upon our union with his son, and not upon our success at loving others. While Paul was not under the law of Christ, he willingly placed himself under the law to Christ, when it came to his love for others, there is a difference in the two. 


Even though we are not under the law in this dispensation of grace, the law can still serve as valid function today for those who have yet to believe the gospel, and are dealing with God according to law principle. 


Understand, being delivered or set free from the law as the program whereby God is dealing with people today, does not mean that the law no longer stands as a perfect picture of what it would take to earn a perfectly righteous standing with God, if our performance was part of that equation, and if that were a possibility, which it is not. 


Paul shows how sin actually makes great use of that law against an individual, with a proper understanding of the two, we find that there is nothing at all wrong with the law. The problem lies with sin and with the moral choice of good and bad that is in us given the first Adam’s decision.


According to Israel’s New Covenant, when would Yahweh finish what forgiveness alone would not accomplish where Israel’s sins were concerned? When would the forgiveness come? At what time would Yahweh completely clear the slate for Israel nationally-those believers who had been baptized according to John the Baptizer’s program? The blood of the second Adam would make it possible, but when would that total clearing of the accounts take place for Israel?

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 05:37 PM
Simon became a believer, accepted Christ and was baptized by Phillip, Simon is now a member of the Body of Christ. Yet, days/weeks later when the Apostles arrived and he sinned before Peter, what does Peter tell him? I will point out that what Simon is told by Peter completely refutes the meaning of what you are saying here.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.


If Simon believed as you do... what do you think he would do? I bet he'd tell Peter that he's repented once days/weeks ago and that he don't need to repent.

But yet, what does Simon do?

Let me know when I need to raise the issue of James 5:16 to refute more of what you are saying.

When Paul refers to us as the called, he is referring not just to the fact that God is extending a call to us, an invitation or summons. Paul’s also referring to the fact that God’s calling us to participate in that to which we have been called, the Body of Christ, participation in that which we have been called to.


When a person believes in the reality of reconciliation, that person becomes an instantaneous member of the new creation called the Body of Christ. We should be very grateful that we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ, his faith accomplished our salvation. 


So, being freed up from all these suffering circumstances is not just liberty, it is a glorious liberty. The sufferings of this present lifetime are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us, that is HOPE. God is not causing bad things to happen to bad people and good things to happen to good people. 


God is not raining down suffering circumstances to bring bad people in line and he is not raining down similar adverse circumstances on good people that have gone bad to keep those people in line. 


If we could pray these circumstances away, what hope would we need, our hope would reside right here in praying them away. When Christ returns in the air to catch us up to be with him, our suffering situations will forever be a thing of the past. 


Why would God want the offense to increase, the offense was already there and God gave an opportunity through that law program for it to really come out, and show itself for what it was and for what it is in us. So, the moral choice of good and bad used the law to bring forth fruit unto death. 


From God’s judicial point of view, we are no longer in that position, we have a new identity. Would more righteousness be needed than the Savior’s righteousness, or is God requiring that we add our righteous works to Christ’s righteousness that we might become righteous indeed, or is Christ’s righteousness the only righteousness from God’s perspective, his saints will ever need?

keck553
Mar 31st 2016, 05:43 PM
Today people think they have to ask God to forgive them for the sins that God is no longer charging to their account in the first place. Ministers of righteousness would have people believe God is not totally reconciled in his mind. The great usurper and his fellow usurpers want to keep sin on the table of God’s justice today, as much in the age of grace as he has in the other ages.

God doesn't ask us to ask for forgiveness, He asks us to REPENT.

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 05:49 PM
God doesn't ask us to ask for forgiveness, He asks us to REPENT.

If works were part of the salvation equation before we were saved by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, his sacrifice would never have been necessary. 


If works were necessary in order to keep a person saved and thus keep that person from facing condemnation from God, then Christ would have only had to die for part of our sins, the part before we began our maintenance for salvation program. 


The responsibility for keeping the slate clean after salvation would be up to us. If we could do it after salvation, we could have done it before our salvation! If we are not acting saved, we did not get saved, is the idea that is being promoted. Paul did not like that is his day, we should not fall for it in ours. 


It is amazing that religious teachers would tell people that they have got that sin, and they preach a message to make people fell guilty about the indwelling sin, and then they would give those people rules to straighten up from the sin. 


The predicament of sin is that no person can escape it, and no person can beat it, there is not any fixing the sin-nature, the flesh cannot be repaired. People want to be saved by grace, and then they want their fellowship with God maintained by rule-keeping. 


In spite of Paul’s highest ambitions, and in spite of his most lofty expectations, he could never merit righteousness before God through the perfection of his flesh, that is called “religion.”

Moose
Mar 31st 2016, 06:02 PM
Paul knew that his identity in Christ was not based upon his performance, he also knew that his identity in Christ was not based upon his success at loving others. Paul exercised himself according to what Paul called the law of Christ, preferring others above self. 


We can thank God that our identity with Christ is based solely upon our union with his son, and not upon our success at loving others. While Paul was not under the law of Christ, he willingly placed himself under the law to Christ, when it came to his love for others, there is a difference in the two. 


Even though we are not under the law in this dispensation of grace, the law can still serve as valid function today for those who have yet to believe the gospel, and are dealing with God according to law principle. 


Understand, being delivered or set free from the law as the program whereby God is dealing with people today, does not mean that the law no longer stands as a perfect picture of what it would take to earn a perfectly righteous standing with God, if our performance was part of that equation, and if that were a possibility, which it is not. 


Paul shows how sin actually makes great use of that law against an individual, with a proper understanding of the two, we find that there is nothing at all wrong with the law. The problem lies with sin and with the moral choice of good and bad that is in us given the first Adam’s decision.


According to Israel’s New Covenant, when would Yahweh finish what forgiveness alone would not accomplish where Israel’s sins were concerned? When would the forgiveness come? At what time would Yahweh completely clear the slate for Israel nationally-those believers who had been baptized according to John the Baptizer’s program? The blood of the second Adam would make it possible, but when would that total clearing of the accounts take place for Israel?

Rom 2:5 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

2 Tim 4:14 Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2016, 06:09 PM
When Paul refers to us as the called, he is referring not just to the fact that God is extending a call to us, an invitation or summons. Paul’s also referring to the fact that God’s calling us to participate in that to which we have been called, the Body of Christ, participation in that which we have been called to.


When a person believes in the reality of reconciliation, that person becomes an instantaneous member of the new creation called the Body of Christ. We should be very grateful that we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ, his faith accomplished our salvation. 


So, being freed up from all these suffering circumstances is not just liberty, it is a glorious liberty. The sufferings of this present lifetime are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us, that is HOPE. God is not causing bad things to happen to bad people and good things to happen to good people. 


God is not raining down suffering circumstances to bring bad people in line and he is not raining down similar adverse circumstances on good people that have gone bad to keep those people in line. 


If we could pray these circumstances away, what hope would we need, our hope would reside right here in praying them away. When Christ returns in the air to catch us up to be with him, our suffering situations will forever be a thing of the past. 


Why would God want the offense to increase, the offense was already there and God gave an opportunity through that law program for it to really come out, and show itself for what it was and for what it is in us. So, the moral choice of good and bad used the law to bring forth fruit unto death. 


From God’s judicial point of view, we are no longer in that position, we have a new identity. Would more righteousness be needed than the Savior’s righteousness, or is God requiring that we add our righteous works to Christ’s righteousness that we might become righteous indeed, or is Christ’s righteousness the only righteousness from God’s perspective, his saints will ever need?So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 06:18 PM
Rom 2:5 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

2 Tim 4:14 Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done.

Is the lose of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ, the same thing as Christ condemning the believer who is standing at the Judgment Seat of Christ, it is the value of the work itself that will be judged, not the believer. 


Christ will be able to judge, not only what is seen by the eye, but also the motivations of the heart, not only what was done, but why it was done in connection with each believer’s work of faith, labor of love and patience of hope. 


Many believers will indeed suffer the loss of rewards for those works that are not reward worthy, but again, is this the judgment Paul is speaking of in Romans 8:1? NO! The sanctification that comes by way of being placed into Christ is identity truth. A sanctified identity in Christ comes not as a result of behavior, it comes as a result of belief. 


Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether. Paul dispensed a message that the 12 apostles had not dispensed, and that message was different, and that message was geared to the Gentiles. 


It is going to make a difference if we lump these messages altogether, we are going to be taking from one program, and trying to make it apply to another, when Paul clearly tells us that God’s power from high is working differently today.

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 06:22 PM
So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

Today people fail to rightly divide the word of truth, because they have mixed God’s program with Israel and his program with the Body of Christ and mixed dispensations together; dispensations that do not mix together, and as a result, they think they have taken on Israel’s role from the point where Israel left off.

The issue is not our sins today, most people think sin is the issue, so they are looking for ways to keep short accounts. The issue is: In order to dwell with God in eternity future; we have to be as righteous as God, his justice will not allow nothing other, and until you believe what happened to the sin debt Christ died for concerning yourself, you are not placed into Christ.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2016, 06:25 PM
Today people fail to rightly divide the word of truth, because they have mixed God’s program with Israel and his program with the Body of Christ and mixed dispensations together; dispensations that do not mix together, and as a result, they think they have taken on Israel’s role from the point where Israel left off.

The issue is not our sins today, most people think sin is the issue, so they are looking for ways to keep short accounts. The issue is: In order to dwell with God in eternity future; we have to be as righteous as God, his justice will not allow nothing other, and until you believe what happened to the sin debt Christ died for concerning yourself, you are not placed into Christ.So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 07:01 PM
Simon became a believer, accepted Christ and was baptized by Phillip, Simon is now a member of the Body of Christ. Yet, days/weeks later when the Apostles arrived and he sinned before Peter, what does Peter tell him? I will point out that what Simon is told by Peter completely refutes the meaning of what you are saying here.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.


If Simon believed as you do... what do you think he would do? I bet he'd tell Peter that he's repented once days/weeks ago and that he don't need to repent.

But yet, what does Simon do?

Let me know when I need to raise the issue of James 5:16 to refute more of what you are saying.

This is before Paul was called. What Paul taught was kept a secret. What is going on is what they were supposed to do. Acts 1:4 - That promise had to do with being baptized with Yahweh’s energizing power from on high. This is not John the Baptizer’s baptism, this is a special identification of Yahweh’s power for the purpose of empowering those kingdom saints for the tribulation period at their doorstep and the millennial reign to come. Yahweh was in a very real sense giving Israel a taste of their promised earthly kingdom. Seven years stood between Israel and them gaining their earthly Kingdom. Paul taught what that resurrection meant to the Gentiles. Why did that couple drop dead in front of these kingdom saints, because of their attitude about this seven year tribulation period at their doorstep. These kingdom saint were not part of the body of Christ. Paul tried to tell them that God is doing something different, some listened and some didn't.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2016, 07:11 PM
This is before Paul was called. What Paul taught was kept a secret. What is going on is what they were supposed to do. Acts 1:4 - That promise had to do with being baptized with Yahweh’s energizing power from on high. This is not John the Baptizer’s baptism, this is a special identification of Yahweh’s power for the purpose of empowering those kingdom saints for the tribulation period at their doorstep and the millennial reign to come. Yahweh was in a very real sense giving Israel a taste of their promised earthly kingdom. Seven years stood between Israel and them gaining their earthly Kingdom. Paul taught what that resurrection meant to the Gentiles. Why did that couple drop dead in front of these kingdom saints, because of their attitude about this seven year tribulation period at their doorstep. These kingdom saint were not part of the body of Christ. Paul tried to tell them that God is doing something different, some listened and some didn't.Simon received the Gospel, repented and believe in Christ, was baptized by Phillip.

So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 07:26 PM
Simon received the Gospel, repented and believe in Christ, was baptized by Phillip.

So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

You are mixing the programs together. You can keep asking the same question and you can quote James, but you are mixing the kingdom program with the age of grace program. You can be part of the kingdom, but you have a long road a head of you. These kingdom saints were getting ready for that seven year, Jacob's trouble. Acts 8:12 Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God? At one time something was true, but now something else is true.

Matt. 12:36 - The meaning of ‘idle word’ is careless or useless sayings. Starting in Matt. 12:22, their was a Pharisee who was guilty of everything in the context of that story. Paul is who that Pharisee was and Paul was not only first in line, when it came to dispensing the grace of God, Paul was also foremost in crime when it came to murdering the saints of Israel’s earthly kingdom program. 


If Paul was at Pentecost, would Paul himself, if he took part in stoning Stephen for believing the message given at Pentecost, would he have been a blasphemer at Pentecost? In Paul’s pre-grace zealousness, he would have been a foremost rejecter of any notion whatsoever that Jesus was Israel’s messiah or that Jesus had been risen from among the dead. 


First in line, first in crime are apt descriptions for the Apostle of Grace. Paul was the chosen spokesman for God to relay the information for this entire dispensation of grace. God is not dealing with Israel nationally today, he is dealing with all alike in the Age of Grace. The apostle Paul dispensed a message that the 12 apostles had not dispensed, and that message was different, and that message was geared to the Gentiles. 


Paul is the chief pattern of God’s grace to all, he is the foremost example. We need to understand that even though Paul was saved, Paul still considered himself to be a sinner. Paul understood the word: Sin. And Paul understood that word meant to come short of the righteousness belonging to God himself. Paul is the foremost example of the impossibility, the total impossibility of gaining righteousness before God through the performance of the flesh. Those who are sealed in Christ, our careless or useless sayings and words are a Judgment Seat of Christ issue.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2016, 08:22 PM
You are mixing the programs together. You can keep asking the same question and you can quote James, but you are mixing the kingdom program with the age of grace program. You can be part of the kingdom, but you have a long road a head of you. These kingdom saints were getting ready for that seven year, Jacob's trouble. Acts 8:12 Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God? At one time something was true, but now something else is true.

Matt. 12:36 - The meaning of ‘idle word’ is careless or useless sayings. Starting in Matt. 12:22, their was a Pharisee who was guilty of everything in the context of that story. Paul is who that Pharisee was and Paul was not only first in line, when it came to dispensing the grace of God, Paul was also foremost in crime when it came to murdering the saints of Israel’s earthly kingdom program. 


If Paul was at Pentecost, would Paul himself, if he took part in stoning Stephen for believing the message given at Pentecost, would he have been a blasphemer at Pentecost? In Paul’s pre-grace zealousness, he would have been a foremost rejecter of any notion whatsoever that Jesus was Israel’s messiah or that Jesus had been risen from among the dead. 


First in line, first in crime are apt descriptions for the Apostle of Grace. Paul was the chosen spokesman for God to relay the information for this entire dispensation of grace. God is not dealing with Israel nationally today, he is dealing with all alike in the Age of Grace. The apostle Paul dispensed a message that the 12 apostles had not dispensed, and that message was different, and that message was geared to the Gentiles. 


Paul is the chief pattern of God’s grace to all, he is the foremost example. We need to understand that even though Paul was saved, Paul still considered himself to be a sinner. Paul understood the word: Sin. And Paul understood that word meant to come short of the righteousness belonging to God himself. Paul is the foremost example of the impossibility, the total impossibility of gaining righteousness before God through the performance of the flesh. Those who are sealed in Christ, our careless or useless sayings and words are a Judgment Seat of Christ issue.Simon was of the under what you call "the age of grace program".

So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

BrianW
Mar 31st 2016, 08:49 PM
Newnature,

The point of what he's trying to show you - by repeating his question- is that what you are trying to teach here is contrary to Scripture in context and accepted doctrine.

You've tried to twist and turn and distort - and it's been kind of amazing to see- but you refuse to actually address the Scripture in context.

In other words you are promoting and trying to teach heresy. Our brother is trying to edify you and I hope that you take heed and consider.

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 08:55 PM
Simon was of the under what you call "the age of grace program".

So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

Acts 8:18 Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles hands God's energizing power from on high that was in the apostles, Simon offered them money?

Israel as a nation was still the focus in Acts chapter 2, as they were given a taste of their promised earthly kingdom there with Yahweh’s empowerments for The Tribulation endurance and for the earthly kingdom entrance. Focus is still that land and the attempt to get Israel’s leadership to change their minds about the source of their righteousness and accept Jesus as indeed their Messiah. Peter promises Israel that if she will change her minds, Yahweh will send Messiah back and their promised Kingdom can get back underway, just as it was promised. Peter called it the times of refreshing speaking of a direct reference there to the millennial reign of Messiah on the earth. 



The beginning of Israel’s last days of her program, they were being equipped for the upcoming time of tribulation right on their horizon. They were more abundant than ever, God used the physical senses in every respect in connection with his sign nation at Israel’s high holy feast day called Pentecost. 
This was not a mystery, this was not a secret, it was exactly what the bible had foretold would take place when it came to the sign nation.

newnature
Mar 31st 2016, 09:04 PM
Newnature,

The point of what he's trying to show you - by repeating his question- is that what you are trying to teach here is contrary to Scripture in context and accepted doctrine.

You've tried to twist and turn and distort - and it's been kind of amazing to see- but you refuse to actually address the Scripture in context.

In other words you are promoting and trying to teach heresy. Our brother is trying to edify you and I hope that you take heed and consider.


2 Tim. 4:14 So what was Alexander the metalworker doing? He was going around and telling people that the gathering of the body of Christ already happen. Same here, teach what you want, but a ransom for all was not testified until Paul proclaimed it, the revelation of the secret, which was kept secret since the world began. This is a fact.

Some have called God’s justification, cheap justification; if it is that easy, if a person can obtain righteousness without doing something, or even trying to do something in order to gain it, that would be too easy, and that would make it cheap. That is difficult for people imbued with the pride of life to imagine; it is difficult to accept, because it does not seem fair to the human mind, especially to the religiously minded. It does not seem quite right that God could consider someone righteous, especially if that person is not expending the same amount of effort or attention that they are to become righteous by way of their practice.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2016, 01:19 AM
Acts 8:18 Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles hands God's energizing power from on high that was in the apostles, Simon offered them money?

Israel as a nation was still the focus in Acts chapter 2, as they were given a taste of their promised earthly kingdom there with Yahweh’s empowerments for The Tribulation endurance and for the earthly kingdom entrance. Focus is still that land and the attempt to get Israel’s leadership to change their minds about the source of their righteousness and accept Jesus as indeed their Messiah. Peter promises Israel that if she will change her minds, Yahweh will send Messiah back and their promised Kingdom can get back underway, just as it was promised. Peter called it the times of refreshing speaking of a direct reference there to the millennial reign of Messiah on the earth. 



The beginning of Israel’s last days of her program, they were being equipped for the upcoming time of tribulation right on their horizon. They were more abundant than ever, God used the physical senses in every respect in connection with his sign nation at Israel’s high holy feast day called Pentecost. 
This was not a mystery, this was not a secret, it was exactly what the bible had foretold would take place when it came to the sign nation.But when Simon sinned, the instruction by an APOSTLE was that he needed to repent of the sin...

Are you saying that the APOSTLE Peter... is wrong?

newnature
Apr 1st 2016, 01:44 AM
But when Simon sinned, the instruction by an APOSTLE was that he needed to repent of the sin...

Are you saying that the APOSTLE Peter... is wrong?

Romans 3:21-26 are you saying this APOSTLE is wrong?

Slug1
Apr 1st 2016, 02:01 AM
Romans 3:21-26 are you saying this APOSTLE is wrong?v21 But now apart [k (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28013k)]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [l (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28014l)]who believe; for there is no distinction;23 for all [m (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28015m)]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a [n (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28017n)]propitiation [o (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28017o)]in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, [p (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28017p)]because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who [q (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28018q)]has faith in Jesus.



Nope, I don't find anything wrong. Simon was justified as a Christian once he believed and became a Christian... so was Peter wrong in telling him to repent of the sin he did?

newnature
Apr 1st 2016, 02:09 AM
v21 But now apart [k (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28013k)]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [l (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28014l)]who believe; for there is no distinction;23 for all [m (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28015m)]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a [n (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28017n)]propitiation [o (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28017o)]in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, [p (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28017p)]because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who [q (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ro+3&version=NASB#fen-NASB-28018q)]has faith in Jesus.



Nope, I don't find anything wrong. Simon was justified as a Christian, not by following the Law, Simon was separated from the Law once he believed and became a Christian... so was Peter wrong in telling him to repent of the sin he did?

The 12 apostles who will be sitting on 12 thrones, judging or presiding over the 12 tribes of the nation Israel. Peter is promised to sit on one of those thrones, why would he give that up! 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Peter never taught this?

Slug1
Apr 1st 2016, 02:11 AM
The 12 apostles who will be sitting on 12 thrones, judging or presiding over the 12 tribes of the nation Israel. Peter is promised to sit on one of those thrones, why would he give that up! 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Peter never taught this?Simon was justified as a Christian once he believed and became a Christian... so was Peter wrong in telling him to repent of the sin he did?

Seems you are starting to trip, based on the connotation of your question.

newnature
Apr 1st 2016, 02:17 AM
Simon was justified as a Christian once he believed and became a Christian... so was Peter wrong in telling him to repent of the sin he did?

No, Peter is going to sit on one of those 12 thrones. Peter was never an ambassador of the ministry of reconciliation. Paul was never about starting a new religion. There’s no “Christianity” in Paul’s letters. There are no “Christians” in Paul’s letters. You can’t find the word. You can’t find the concept? Peter did what he knew at that time and continued to do it until the day he died.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2016, 02:20 AM
No, Peter is going to sit on one of those 12 thrones. Peter was never an ambassador of the ministry of reconciliation. Paul was never about starting a new religion. There’s no “Christianity” in Paul’s letters. There are no “Christians” in Paul’s letters. You can’t find the word. You can’t find the concept? Peter did what he knew at that time and continued to do it until the day he died.OK, finally a No... so since Peter is not wrong in instructing Simon to REPENT, after committing a sin... why are you trying to teach that Simon doesn't have to repent of that sin?

You said in this reply that Peter is not wrong, but your TEACHINGS so far... DO SAY HE IS WRONG by instructing Simon to repent of the sin.

So, are your teachings wrong and Peter is correct to instruct Simon to repent of the sin?

Or are you saying God had Peter teach one thing, and God had Paul teach the opposite of Peter?

newnature
Apr 1st 2016, 02:27 AM
OK... so since Peter is not wrong in instructing Simon to REPENT, after committing a sin... why are you trying to teach that Simon doesn't have to repent of that sin.

You said in this reply that Peter is not wrong, but your TEACHINGS so far... DO SAY HE IS WRONG by instructing Simon to repent of the sin.

So, are your teachings wrong and Peter is correct to instruct Simon to repent of the sin?

No, you are putting words in my mouth. Since Paul began teaching reconciliation is what I'm showing, this is the age of grace. Sure those parts of the bible you are showing are for are learning and understanding, but Paul taught that something was true, but now something else is true. The body of Christ walks by faith, not by sight.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2016, 02:33 AM
No, you are putting words in my mouth. Since Paul began teaching reconciliation is what I'm showing, this is the age of grace. Sure those parts of the bible you are showing are for are learning and understanding, but Paul taught that something was true, but now something else is true. The body of Christ walks by faith, not by sight.OK, sorry I misunderstood that "No" at the beginning of your last reply. For your teachings, when did what you term as the "age of grace" begin?

So, let take a step back again... was Peter wrong when he instructed Simon to repent of the sin he did?

newnature
Apr 1st 2016, 02:59 AM
OK, sorry I misunderstood that "No" at the beginning of your last reply. For your teachings, when did what you term as the "age of grace" begin?

So, let take a step back again... was Peter wrong when he instructed Simon to repent of the sin he did?

I'm an ambassador of the ministry of reconciliation and I was showing that God is reconciled to the human race. It's a son issue today, not a sin issue with God. Don't get me wrong, I must stand at the Judgement Seat of Christ, where my behavior as an ambassador of this message of reconciliation will be put on display. I don't look forward to that, but I keep trying to grow. The age of grace began with Paul, but it took time to learn and understand what was being shown to him. Paul was even trying to raise money to help those kingdom saints, because they sold everything they had, they were ready for that seven years of Jacob's trouble. But the leadership of Israel would not have anything to do with it, but when the leaders of Israel stoned Stephen, God put that program on hold. Read Peter's letters, he was encouraging the kingdom saints to hang in there, because it will still happen, just not right now.

keck553
Apr 1st 2016, 03:42 AM
If works were part of the salvation equation before we were saved by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, his sacrifice would never have been necessary. 


If works were necessary in order to keep a person saved and thus keep that person from facing condemnation from God, then Christ would have only had to die for part of our sins, the part before we began our maintenance for salvation program. 


The responsibility for keeping the slate clean after salvation would be up to us. If we could do it after salvation, we could have done it before our salvation! If we are not acting saved, we did not get saved, is the idea that is being promoted. Paul did not like that is his day, we should not fall for it in ours. 


It is amazing that religious teachers would tell people that they have got that sin, and they preach a message to make people fell guilty about the indwelling sin, and then they would give those people rules to straighten up from the sin. 


The predicament of sin is that no person can escape it, and no person can beat it, there is not any fixing the sin-nature, the flesh cannot be repaired. People want to be saved by grace, and then they want their fellowship with God maintained by rule-keeping. 


In spite of Paul’s highest ambitions, and in spite of his most lofty expectations, he could never merit righteousness before God through the perfection of his flesh, that is called “religion.”

I have no idea what you are talking about.

The first word that came out of Jesus after John's baptism was "repent."

The first word that came out of Peter's mouth in Acts 2 when people asked what they should do:

"Repent."

Do you know what repent means?

newnature
Apr 1st 2016, 03:55 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about.

The first word that came out of Jesus after John's baptism was "repent."

The first word that came out of Peter's mouth in Acts 2 when people asked what they should do:

"Repent."

Do you know what repent means?

Some would say to repent, means to have Godly sorrow, others would say that to repent, means to turn around and go the other direction, sin no more. Repent simply means, a change of mind, a change of thinking, Israel was continually being called upon to repent, to change their thinking, they were trusting in themselves. 


God did not give Israel a law they could keep, he gave them a law impossible for those with a the moral choice of good and bad to obey perfectly, in order to teach them their need of a Savior. We certainly can make some choices in our lives, due to who God’s made us to be by joining us to his son.


Those of us who are bent on satisfying the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life fall into a snare, in that we become addicted to the manner in which we satisfy those lusts. Paul does not talk about God pushing a bad button and having something bad happen to us or God taking our life. 


Paul does talk about when we pursue the satisfaction of the sinful lusts of the flesh, it is not ruination God is bringing on sinful believers, but ruination sinning believers are bringing upon themselves. 


Unbelievers and believers alike can make choices, Paul is calling on the saved saints, saved and sealed saints to make a decision, to make righteousness the choice of their service. Since God’s power from on high indwells every believer, his power can indeed be grieved when the conduct of believers is contrary to their new identity in the Savior.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2016, 01:18 PM
I'm an ambassador of the ministry of reconciliation and I was showing that God is reconciled to the human race. It's a son issue today, not a sin issue with God. Don't get me wrong, I must stand at the Judgement Seat of Christ, where my behavior as an ambassador of this message of reconciliation will be put on display. I don't look forward to that, but I keep trying to grow. The age of grace began with Paul, but it took time to learn and understand what was being shown to him. Paul was even trying to raise money to help those kingdom saints, because they sold everything they had, they were ready for that seven years of Jacob's trouble. But the leadership of Israel would not have anything to do with it, but when the leaders of Israel stoned Stephen, God put that program on hold. Read Peter's letters, he was encouraging the kingdom saints to hang in there, because it will still happen, just not right now.I disagree with your title as ambassador as all you've been teaching so far is what can actually be a NEW form of... GREASY GRACE.

For your teachings, when did what you term as the "age of grace" begin?

So, let take a step back again... was Peter wrong when he instructed Simon to repent of the sin he did?

Also... since this was place on my spirit last night when praying. I have to ask you now... HOW does the Lord's Prayer fit with your teachings?

keck553
Apr 1st 2016, 06:23 PM
Some would say to repent, means to have Godly sorrow, others would say that to repent, means to turn around and go the other direction, sin no more. Repent simply means, a change of mind, a change of thinking, Israel was continually being called upon to repent, to change their thinking, they were trusting in themselves. 


God did not give Israel a law they could keep, he gave them a law impossible for those with a the moral choice of good and bad to obey perfectly, in order to teach them their need of a Savior. We certainly can make some choices in our lives, due to who God’s made us to be by joining us to his son.


Those of us who are bent on satisfying the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life fall into a snare, in that we become addicted to the manner in which we satisfy those lusts. Paul does not talk about God pushing a bad button and having something bad happen to us or God taking our life. 


Paul does talk about when we pursue the satisfaction of the sinful lusts of the flesh, it is not ruination God is bringing on sinful believers, but ruination sinning believers are bringing upon themselves. 


Unbelievers and believers alike can make choices, Paul is calling on the saved saints, saved and sealed saints to make a decision, to make righteousness the choice of their service. Since God’s power from on high indwells every believer, his power can indeed be grieved when the conduct of believers is contrary to their new identity in the Savior.

Okay, thanks .

Slug1
Apr 1st 2016, 06:27 PM
Okay, thanks .How hard are you biting your tongue :P

Noeb
Apr 1st 2016, 09:53 PM
Simon was of the under what you call "the age of grace program".

So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?He was at/near apostasy or conversion was in question. Where's the fruit?

Noeb
Apr 1st 2016, 09:59 PM
But when Simon sinned, the instruction by an APOSTLE was that he needed to repent of the sin...

Are you saying that the APOSTLE Peter... is wrong?Well, he did need to change his mind about being able to buy the Spirit.

Noeb
Apr 1st 2016, 10:02 PM
OK, finally a No... so since Peter is not wrong in instructing Simon to REPENT, after committing a sin... why are you trying to teach that Simon doesn't have to repent of that sin?

You said in this reply that Peter is not wrong, but your TEACHINGS so far... DO SAY HE IS WRONG by instructing Simon to repent of the sin.

So, are your teachings wrong and Peter is correct to instruct Simon to repent of the sin?

Or are you saying God had Peter teach one thing, and God had Paul teach the opposite of Peter?would you call that, just a sin? Your not one of those, all sins are the same folk are ya?

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 12:08 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about.

The first word that came out of Jesus after John's baptism was "repent."

The first word that came out of Peter's mouth in Acts 2 when people asked what they should do:

"Repent."

Do you know what repent means?Yes. Change your mind. Israel had a lot to change their mind about. In Acts 2, the men of Israel that rejected Jesus as Messiah and crucified him, needed to repent too. A believer that sins and knows and agrees (confess) it was sin doesn't have to change their mind.

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2016, 02:56 AM
He was at/near apostasy or conversion was in question. Where's the fruit?Noeb, if a person, new to the Body makes a mistake and sins due to lacking proper discipleship, are you so quick to say the fruit is bad, the person really isn't a Christian because a week after conversion, they sinned?

Really?

CadyandZoe
Apr 2nd 2016, 04:02 AM
I'm an ambassador of the ministry of reconciliation and I was showing that God is reconciled to the human race. It's a son issue today, not a sin issue with God. Don't get me wrong, I must stand at the Judgement Seat of Christ, where my behavior as an ambassador of this message of reconciliation will be put on display. I don't look forward to that, but I keep trying to grow. The age of grace began with Paul, but it took time to learn and understand what was being shown to him. Paul was even trying to raise money to help those kingdom saints, because they sold everything they had, they were ready for that seven years of Jacob's trouble. But the leadership of Israel would not have anything to do with it, but when the leaders of Israel stoned Stephen, God put that program on hold. Read Peter's letters, he was encouraging the kingdom saints to hang in there, because it will still happen, just not right now.I don't think the age of grace began with Paul. It began with Abraham, I think. But it would take a bigger post to explain why I think so. Quickly, though, we need only review the inauguration of the Covenant at Mt. Sinai to see God's grace. On the day the covenant was inaugurated, before anyone had a chance to break it or disobey any of it's laws etc. Moses took blood from the alter and sprinkled the people with it. (Exodus 25.) To signify two things: Israel needed forgiveness, and God was willing to forgive. Grace itself was God's first act as Israel's God.

keck553
Apr 2nd 2016, 04:19 AM
How hard are you biting your tongue :P

Learning patience and humility....

keck553
Apr 2nd 2016, 04:20 AM
Yes. Change your mind. Israel had a lot to change their mind about. In Acts 2, the men of Israel that rejected Jesus as Messiah and crucified him, needed to repent too. A believer that sins and knows and agrees (confess) it was sin doesn't have to change their mind.

It's more than just turning. It's Who we turn to and Who we choose to be our Lord that makes all the difference.

newnature
Apr 2nd 2016, 05:17 AM
I don't think the age of grace began with Paul. It began with Abraham, I think. But it would take a bigger post to explain why I think so. Quickly, though, we need only review the inauguration of the Covenant at Mt. Sinai to see God's grace. On the day the covenant was inaugurated, before anyone had a chance to break it or disobey any of it's laws etc. Moses took blood from the alter and sprinkled the people with it. (Exodus 25.) To signify two things: Israel needed forgiveness, and God was willing to forgive. Grace itself was God's first act as Israel's God.

Yahweh’s salvation of his people from Egypt, not the Christian sense of personal salvation from sin; that’s anachronistically read back into the Hebrew Bible. It’s not there. Salvation in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to an individual's deliverance from a sinful nature. This is not a concept that is found in the Hebrew Bible. Salvation refers instead, to the concrete, collective, communal salvation from national suffering and oppression, particularly in the form of foreign rule of enslavement.

Remember Jacob’s sons; Joseph’s betrayal by his brothers, his decent into Egypt, set the stage, not only for the reformation of his brothers’ characters, but for the descent of all of the Israelites into Egypt, so as to survive widespread famine; threat of famine is overcome by the relocation to Egypt. Yahweh says to Jacob, “I myself will go down with you to Egypt, and I myself will also bring you back.” So in short, there seems to be a plan afoot. Israel’s descent to Egypt sets the stage for the rise of a pharaoh who, didn’t know Joseph, and all that he had done for Egypt. And this new pharaoh will enslave the Israelites, and so embitter their lives, that their cry will rise up to heaven. Yahweh as Israel’s redeemer and savior, is Yahweh’s physical deliverance of the nation from the hands of her foes. But the physical redemption of the Israelites is going to reach its climax in the covenant that will be concluded at Sinai.

Yahweh’s redemption of the Israelites, is a redemption for a purpose, for at Sinai, the Israelites will become Yahweh’s people, bound by a covenant. The covenant concluded at Sinai is referred to as the Mosaic covenant. The Mosaic covenant differs radically from the Noahide and the patriarchal covenants, because here Yahweh makes no promises beyond being the patron or protector of Israel; and also, in this covenant, he set terms that require obedience to a variety of laws and commandments. The Mosaic covenant is neither unilateral, it’s a bilateral covenant, involving mutual, reciprocal obligations, nor is it unconditional like the other two. It is conditional; the first bilateral, conditional covenant. If Israel doesn’t fulfill her oblations by obeying Yahweh’s torah, his instructions, and living in accordance with his will, as expressed in the laws and instruction, then Yahweh will not fulfill his obligation of protection and blessing towards Israel.

So the Mosaic covenant, understanding of the relationship between Yahweh and Israel; the history of Israel will be governed by this one outstanding reality of covenant. Israel’s fortunes will be seen to ride on the degree of its faithfulness to this covenant. The nature of the biblical text, it reflects a range of perceptions about Yahweh and his relation to creation and to Israel. Understanding the making sense of the historical odyssey of the nation of Israel in covenant with Yahweh-that is its concern. Understanding Israel’s relationship with Yahweh, the vehicle of the suzerainty treaty. The use of a suzerainty treaty as a model for Israel’s relationship to Yahweh, expresses several key ideas.

Suzerainty treaties are between a suzerain, who has a position obviously of power and authority, and a vassal. The historical prologue that’s so central to the suzerainty treaty grounds the obligations of Israel to Yahweh in the history of his acts on her behalf. Also the historical prologue bridges the gap between generations. Israel’s past and present and future generations form a collective entity, Israel, that collectively assents to the covenant. Even today, at Passover ceremonies everywhere, Israelites are reminded to see themselves, they’re reminded of the obligation to see themselves as if they personally came out of Egypt, and personally covenanted with Yahweh.

The historical prologue explains why Israel accepts her place in the suzerain-vassal relationship. Israel’s acceptance of a relationship with Yahweh doesn’t stem from mystical introspection, or philosophical speculation. Instead the Israelites are affirming their identity and their relationship with Yahweh by telling a story, a story whose moral can only be that Yahweh is reliable. Israel can rely on Yahweh, just as a vassal can rely on his suzerain. Israel as a vassal, treat their fellow vassals well. Israel as a vassal, can’t serve two suzerains.

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 12:03 PM
Noeb, if a person, new to the Body makes a mistake and sins due to lacking proper discipleship, are you so quick to say the fruit is bad, the person really isn't a Christian because a week after conversion, they sinned?

Really?Buy God? Really? That's a mistake? Just a sin? Peter, whom you are so emphatic was correct, said Simon was destitute of the grace of God, rooted in bitterness, and bound by iniquity. And you think I'm over the top? This is the last scripture someone should use to promote a believer sinning/repenting. I don't know why people pull this one out of their hat.

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 12:06 PM
It's more than just turning. It's Who we turn to and Who we choose to be our Lord that makes all the difference.Repenting and the result are two different things.

CadyandZoe
Apr 2nd 2016, 12:09 PM
Yahweh’s salvation of his people from Egypt, not the Christian sense of personal salvation from sin; that’s anachronistically read back into the Hebrew Bible. It’s not there. Salvation in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to an individual's deliverance from a sinful nature. This is not a concept that is found in the Hebrew Bible. Salvation refers instead, to the concrete, collective, communal salvation from national suffering and oppression, particularly in the form of foreign rule of enslavement. Undoubtedly, the Bible speaks about Israel's salvation as a nation and a people so I tend to use the Biblical term for national salvation: Deliverance. But salvation of the soul or the individual life is not absent from the OT. Paul quotes Psalm 32, for instance, in which we read

"How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!"

And again, in Psalm 51

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, [m]open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

And again, In Romans 4 Paul argues for individual justification based on faith from the account of Abraham.

1 What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 [b]Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

Now, I suspect that you are attending college or perhaps you have graduated, since what you propose sounds like the work of Biblical Scholars who tend to study the Bible for their own purposes but don't usually believe it or understand it. If this is the case, be very careful to place truth above all else and follow the evidence wherever it leads and don't lean too heavily on college professors.

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2016, 12:34 PM
Buy God? Really? That's a mistake? Just a sin? Peter, whom you are so emphatic was correct, said Simon was destitute of the grace of God, rooted in bitterness, and bound by iniquity. And you think I'm over the top? This is the last scripture someone should use to promote a believer sinning/repenting. I don't know why people pull this one out of their hat.Simon was destitute of the grace of God? Is that from a translation of scripture you use, or your personal interpretation?

Simon expressed the wickedness/iniquity that is still in his heart, based on the actions and words he used, he was jealous/envious of the "power" that Philip and the Apostles displayed when the Holy Spirit worked through them all and also, he coveted. Yes, he clearly sinned... but destitute of God's grace? The fact that he saw his error (finally) and asked for prayer (James 5:16 in action) show us what?

If a brother, or a sister in Christ, a week or two after they believed and was baptized, sinned in your presence as Simon did in the presence of Peter, you (Noeb) rebuke the sin they did (as Peter did) and they asked for you to pray for them... are you gonna say to them, "you are destitute of the grace of God?"

Or are you gonna pray for them after you rebuked their wickedness (say to them that they are rooted in bitterness, and bound in iniquity) and when they ask for prayer (James 5:16)... you pray as requested for the brother or sister who had sinned?

Let me ask a question... we have King David (just one example), many time asking the Lord to search for iniquity in his heart, the dark secrets still there and reveal them so that David can surrender them over... ya don't think Christian don't do this today? Have you ever been blessed with counseling a Christian who, in confidence, reveals to you a sin they are doing and asks you for help?

Christians sin, and at times the iniquity is revealed as fruit others can view, while some are in secret, and only God reveals (such as when Peter encountered the sin of Ananias and his wife). Ya don't think God reveals to the pastor's of churches today, SIN that a person or person's are doing in their church? What Simon did was publicly reveal iniquity, got called out on it... as ANY church leader should do when a person in a church PUBLICLY sins before brethren, as Simon did. Sin MUST be rebuked in a way that MAKES it very clear to the person who sinned and for those witness to the sin. This is called CORRECTION... and many leaders today are fearful to rebuke and correct with such authority. Which is WHY many today don't SEE any sin in their lives, as Simon did the moment Peter rebuked him.

You say this example through Simon is a lousy example of how a Christian can sin AFTER they believe and are a member of the Body?

It is a perfect example.

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2016, 12:49 PM
I don't think the age of grace began with Paul. It began with Abraham, I think. But it would take a bigger post to explain why I think so. Quickly, though, we need only review the inauguration of the Covenant at Mt. Sinai to see God's grace. On the day the covenant was inaugurated, before anyone had a chance to break it or disobey any of it's laws etc. Moses took blood from the alter and sprinkled the people with it. (Exodus 25.) To signify two things: Israel needed forgiveness, and God was willing to forgive. Grace itself was God's first act as Israel's God.Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and God looked for them, came into their presence, allowed them to be in His presence after they sinned. He was able to come into the presence of two sinners, why? Because of grace.

Grace was in place and active before creation even came into existence because Christ was slain before the very foundation of the world had come into existence.

newnature
Apr 2nd 2016, 01:16 PM
Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and God looked for them, came into their presence, allowed them to be in His presence after they sinned. He was able to come into the presence of two sinners, why? Because of grace.

Grace was in place and active before creation even came into existence because Christ was slain before the very foundation of the world had come into existence.

If one really thinks about it, having that good and bad knowledge is no guarantee that one will choose or incline towards the good. After all, that’s what the serpent omitted in his speech, before Eve ate off the tree of knowledge of good and bad. The serpent said, “You are not going to die, but Yahweh knows that as soon as you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like divine beings, who know good and bad.” It’s true in one sense, but false in another; the serpent sort of omitted to point out, that its the power of moral choice alone, that is Yahweh like. The very action that brought Adam and Eve a Yahweh like awareness of their mortal autonomy, was an action that was taken in opposition to Yahweh.

Yahweh knows that, that human beings will become like Yahweh, knowing good and bad; it’s one of the things about Yahweh, he knows good and bad, and has chosen the good. For Adam and Eve to have true freedom of will, Adam and Eve have to have the freedom to rebel. This is why this tree is in the garden, next to the tree of life; instead, evil will come about as a result of the clash of the will of Yahweh, and the will of humans, who happen to have the freedom to rebel. Human beings, and only human beings are the potential source of evil, responsibility for evil will lie in the hands of human beings. Yet, evil is represented not as a physical reality, it’s not built into the structure of Eden, evil is a condition of human existence, and to assert that evil stems from human behavior.

The drama of Adam and Eve’s life should revolve not around the search for eternal life, nor preoccupation with immortality; it was not in Yahweh’s design for this kind of drama. It was Yahweh’s design for the tree of life to have been eaten of, there was no danger to Adam and Eve going on eternally, being immortal. The eating off the tree of knowledge of good and bad, has caused a moral conflict and tension between Yahweh’s good design for creation, and the free will of human beings that can corrupt that good design. Evil is a product of human behavior, not a principal inherent in the cosmos. Man’s disobedience is the cause of the human predicament. Human freedom can be at one and the same time an omen of disaster, and a challenge, and opportunity.

So despite Adam and Eve’s newfound mortality, humans are going to be a force to be reckoned with. They’re unpredictable to the very Yahweh who created them. Yahweh has to modify his plan, by barring access to the tree of life; that was not something presumably Yahweh planned to do. Adam and Eve had access to this tree up to that point, as long as their will conformed to the will of Yahweh, there was no danger to their going on eternally, being immortal. Once they discovered their moral freedom, once they discovered that they could thwart Yahweh and work evil in the world, and abuse and corrupt all that Yahweh had created, then Yahweh could not afford to allow them access to the tree of life.

That would be tantamount to creating divine enemies, immortal enemies. So Yahweh must maintain the upper hand in his struggle with these humans who have learned to defy him. And Yahweh maintains the upper hand in this, the fact that humans eventually must die. Yahweh stations the cherubim and the fiery ever-turning sword to guard the way back to the tree of life, once Adam and Eve were banished from the garden. The tree of life is now inaccessible; no humans have access to immortality, and the pursuit of immortality is futile. So it might be then that Yahweh really spoke the truth after all, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad did bring death to the human race.

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2016, 01:20 PM
If one really thinks about it, having that good and bad knowledge is no guarantee that one will choose or incline towards the good. After all, that’s what the serpent omitted in his speech, before Eve ate off the tree of knowledge of good and bad. The serpent said, “You are not going to die, but Yahweh knows that as soon as you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like divine beings, who know good and bad.” It’s true in one sense, but false in another; the serpent sort of omitted to point out, that its the power of moral choice alone, that is Yahweh like. The very action that brought Adam and Eve a Yahweh like awareness of their mortal autonomy, was an action that was taken in opposition to Yahweh.

Yahweh knows that, that human beings will become like Yahweh, knowing good and bad; it’s one of the things about Yahweh, he knows good and bad, and has chosen the good. For Adam and Eve to have true freedom of will, Adam and Eve have to have the freedom to rebel. This is why this tree is in the garden, next to the tree of life; instead, evil will come about as a result of the clash of the will of Yahweh, and the will of humans, who happen to have the freedom to rebel. Human beings, and only human beings are the potential source of evil, responsibility for evil will lie in the hands of human beings. Yet, evil is represented not as a physical reality, it’s not built into the structure of Eden, evil is a condition of human existence, and to assert that evil stems from human behavior.

The drama of Adam and Eve’s life should revolve not around the search for eternal life, nor preoccupation with immortality; it was not in Yahweh’s design for this kind of drama. It was Yahweh’s design for the tree of life to have been eaten of, there was no danger to Adam and Eve going on eternally, being immortal. The eating off the tree of knowledge of good and bad, has caused a moral conflict and tension between Yahweh’s good design for creation, and the free will of human beings that can corrupt that good design. Evil is a product of human behavior, not a principal inherent in the cosmos. Man’s disobedience is the cause of the human predicament. Human freedom can be at one and the same time an omen of disaster, and a challenge, and opportunity.

So despite Adam and Eve’s newfound mortality, humans are going to be a force to be reckoned with. They’re unpredictable to the very Yahweh who created them. Yahweh has to modify his plan, by barring access to the tree of life; that was not something presumably Yahweh planned to do. Adam and Eve had access to this tree up to that point, as long as their will conformed to the will of Yahweh, there was no danger to their going on eternally, being immortal. Once they discovered their moral freedom, once they discovered that they could thwart Yahweh and work evil in the world, and abuse and corrupt all that Yahweh had created, then Yahweh could not afford to allow them access to the tree of life.

That would be tantamount to creating divine enemies, immortal enemies. So Yahweh must maintain the upper hand in his struggle with these humans who have learned to defy him. And Yahweh maintains the upper hand in this, the fact that humans eventually must die. Yahweh stations the cherubim and the fiery ever-turning sword to guard the way back to the tree of life, once Adam and Eve were banished from the garden. The tree of life is now inaccessible; no humans have access to immortality, and the pursuit of immortality is futile. So it might be then that Yahweh really spoke the truth after all, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad did bring death to the human race.The fact that God was able to come into their presence, and that He allowed them into His presences after they sinned, shows us that grace is active.

Paul issued in your age of grace? Not God, through Christ?

Humans are unpredictable? Are you saying God ISN'T omniscient, or omnipresent, or omnipotent and with this, does not foreknow (foreknowledge) what man was gonna do?

It's because of His foreknowledge that God killed His Son and with the grace, as a product of Christ's sacrifice, God was able to have a relationship with sinful (now sinful) mankind (fallen creation). He (God) knew it (man would sin)... thus why He established what was necessary to continue in relationship with His creation.

And you say... Paul did all this through teaching and not until he began to teach, grace wasn't active in the creation?

newnature
Apr 2nd 2016, 01:23 PM
Simon was destitute of the grace of God? Is that from a translation of scripture you use, or your personal interpretation?

Simon expressed the wickedness/iniquity that is still in his heart, based on the actions and words he used, he was jealous/envious of the "power" that Philip and the Apostles displayed when the Holy Spirit worked through them all and also, he coveted. Yes, he clearly sinned... but destitute of God's grace? The fact that he saw his error (finally) and asked for prayer (James 5:16 in action) show us what?

If a brother, or a sister in Christ, a week or two after they believed and was baptized, sinned in your presence as Simon did in the presence of Peter, you (Noeb) rebuke the sin they did (as Peter did) and they asked for you to pray for them... are you gonna say to them, "you are destitute of the grace of God?"

Or are you gonna pray for them after you rebuked their wickedness (say to them that they are rooted in bitterness, and bound in iniquity) and when they ask for prayer (James 5:16)... you pray as requested for the brother or sister who had sinned?

Let me ask a question... we have King David (just one example), many time asking the Lord to search for iniquity in his heart, the dark secrets still there and reveal them so that David can surrender them over... ya don't think Christian don't do this today? Have you ever been blessed with counseling a Christian who, in confidence, reveals to you a sin they are doing and asks you for help?

Christians sin, and at times the iniquity is revealed as fruit others can view, while some are in secret, and only God reveals (such as when Peter encountered the sin of Ananias and his wife). Ya don't think God reveals to the pastor's of churches today, SIN that a person or person's are doing in their church? What Simon did was publicly reveal iniquity, got called out on it... as ANY church leader should do when a person in a church PUBLICLY sins before brethren, as Simon did. Sin MUST be rebuked in a way that MAKES it very clear to the person who sinned and for those witness to the sin. This is called CORRECTION... and many leaders today are fearful to rebuke and correct with such authority. Which is WHY many today don't SEE any sin in their lives, as Simon did the moment Peter rebuked him.

You say this example through Simon is a lousy example of how a Christian can sin AFTER they believe and are a member of the Body?

It is a perfect example.

Romans 1:5 - Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether. Grace is the foundation on which Paul’s entire ministry was built, and grace covers all the bases for the believer’s life. There is a glory that belongs to God’s grace, and it is to be praised on the bases on what God’s grace has accomplished. 


Paul had been given special divine authority with the understanding that he is our apostle, and that authority carried with it the details of what God expects people to believe today, concerning the salvation Jesus Christ purchased for them with his sacrifice. 


Therefore, God in his infinite wisdom devised a plan whereby he could take the very faith belonging to his son, along with its resultant faithfulness, and credit that faith and faithfulness to the account of those who believe. It is Christ’s faith that is freely credited to the account of the one who believes the good news message given to the apostle Paul to proclaim to us in this age of grace. 


Paul wants us to know how a person is saved. He wants us to understand the basis by which God provides eternal security, not only has provided the gift of salvation; but provides eternal security to all those who place their faith in what the sacrifice of his son accomplished. It is our faith in the accomplishment of Jesus Christ’s faithful sacrifice that is the means whereby God acknowledges that we have accepted the gift his son purchased.

newnature
Apr 2nd 2016, 01:25 PM
The fact that God was able to come into their presence, and that He allowed them into His presences after they sinned, shows us that grace is active.

Paul issued in your age of grace? Not God, through Christ?


Yahweh was on the earth the whole time, he was in his Kavod.

CadyandZoe
Apr 2nd 2016, 01:43 PM
Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and God looked for them, came into their presence, allowed them to be in His presence after they sinned. He was able to come into the presence of two sinners, why? Because of grace.

Grace was in place and active before creation even came into existence because Christ was slain before the very foundation of the world had come into existence.

Two very good points. Thanks.

newnature
Apr 2nd 2016, 01:50 PM
Two very good points. Thanks.

Then this would not have been necessary. In contrast to the land, Yahweh’s sanctuary can be purified for moral impurity by means of a special sacrifice. The blood of the animal, the blood of the sacrifice is the key to the whole ritual. Blood, the blood that courses through one’s veins, represents the life force; the Noahide covenant, you may not spill human blood. And you may not eat animal flesh that has the lifeblood in it, because the blood is the life and that belongs to Yahweh, that’s holy. 


So the life force is holy, and the life force is in the blood; Leviticus 17:11, repeats the blood prohibition, and then it offers a rationale. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have assigned it to you for making expiation for your lives upon the altar.” Yahweh assigned it to them to use in sacrificial practices. It is the blood as life that effects expiation, purging and atonement. The blood of sacrificial animals is assigned by Yahweh as a detergent, if you will, to cleanse the sanctuary of the impurities that are caused by the sinful deeds of the Israelites. 


Purification of the sanctuary was believed to be critical to the health and the well-being of the community. If the sanctuary is not purged of impurity, it can become polluted to the point when Yahweh is driven out entirely. The purification offering acts on the sanctuary, not on the offerer. It purges the sanctuary of the defilement that is symbolically; it has symbolically suffered from the offerer’s state of ritual impurity or sinfulness. Once the sanctuary is purged, the offerer has settled his debt, he’s repaired the damage he caused. He’s fully atoned, and Yahweh is no longer repelled by the impurity that marred his sanctuary.

The defiling effect of lesser transgressions is calibrated to the sinner’s intentionality and the presence of absence of repentance. So inadvertent sins can be purged, the sanctuary defilement that they cause can be purged by bringing a purification sacrifice. Deliberate sins, as long as there is repentance, then they are converted into inadvertent sins, and they also can be purged, or the impurity they cause can be purged with a purification sacrifice. But brazen unrepentant sins, unrepented sins or unintentional sins that are never realized, these stand unremedied, and they defile the sanctuary. For this reason, the sanctuary has to be regularly purged of the accumulated defilements accruing to it as a result of such sins.

On the day of atonement, a purification sacrifice is brought on behalf of the community to purify the sanctuary of the impurities that have been caused by Israel’s sin. And the high priest loads all of the sins and impurities of the Israelites on the head of a goat, which then carries them off into the wilderness away from the sanctuary. Every sin pollutes the sanctuary; it may not mark the sinner, but, it does mark the sanctuary. It scars the face of the sanctuary. You may think you’ve gotten away with something, but every act of social exploitation, every act of moral corruption, pollutes the sanctuary more and more until such time as Yahweh is driven out entirely, and human society is devoured by its own viciousness and death-dealing. Humans are in control of their destiny, and the action of every individual affects and influences the fate of society. Collective responsibility; sin affects, individual sin affects the entire fabric of society. There’s no such thing as an isolated evil; our deeds affect one another. And when evildoers are finally punished, they bring down others with them, those others aren’t so blameless, because they allowed the wicked to flourish and contribute to the pollution of the sanctuary, the corruption of society.

Holy things only exist because of safeguards, rules that keep them separate, that demarcate them. And these safeguards and rules are naturally addressed to human beings. They are the ones charged with the task of preserving the holy in its residence on earth. Although holiness derives from Yahweh, humans have a crucial role to play in sanctification, the Sabbath, Yahweh sanctified the Sabbath at creation; he demarcated it as holy. But Israel is the one to affirm its holiness by observing the rules that make it different, that mark it off as holy. So Israel doesn’t just in fact affirm the holy status of the Sabbath, they actualize the holy status of the Sabbath. If Israel doesn’t observe the prohibitions that distinguish the Sabbath as sacred, it’s automatically desecrated. There are two components integral and inseparable in the concept of holiness: Initial assignment of holy status by Yahweh and establishment of rules to preserve that holy status; and secondly, actualization of that holiness by humans through the observance of the commandments and rules that mark that thing off as holy.

keck553
Apr 2nd 2016, 03:09 PM
Repenting and the result are two different things.

Care to expand in this?

keck553
Apr 2nd 2016, 03:37 PM
Ok, I have some time now to respond to this


Some would say to repent, means to have Godly sorrow, others would say that to repent, means to turn around and go the other direction, sin no more. Repent simply means, a change of mind, a change of thinking, Israel was continually being called upon to repent, to change their thinking, they were trusting in themselves. 


This is vague. In context of the BIble, repent means to Trust in God's authority, acknowledge Him as your Master and turn to His ways. That is why God establishes Himself as sovereign at the beginning of the 10 Commandments. This is true for ANY age.



God did not give Israel a law they could keep, he gave them a law impossible for those with a the moral choice of good and bad to obey perfectly, in order to teach them their need of a Savior. We certainly can make some choices in our lives, due to who God’s made us to be by joining us to his son.


If God expects perfection why was a sin offering instituted on Yom Kippur? Does God expect perfection from you?



Those of us who are bent on satisfying the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life fall into a snare, in that we become addicted to the manner in which we satisfy those lusts. Paul does not talk about God pushing a bad button and having something bad happen to us or God taking our life. 


I have no idea what this talking point means....


Paul does talk about when we pursue the satisfaction of the sinful lusts of the flesh, it is not ruination God is bringing on sinful believers, but ruination sinning believers are bringing upon themselves. 


Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. People sin because they want to. That is a heart issue and has some depth to it.



Unbelievers and believers alike can make choices, Paul is calling on the saved saints, saved and sealed saints to make a decision, to make righteousness the choice of their service. Since God’s power from on high indwells every believer, his power can indeed be grieved when the conduct of believers is contrary to their new identity in the Savior.

Paul says Abraham was justified because he believed. Believe in this context isn't some mental exercise. The Hebrew word is "Aman." This word carries with it 100% certainty. Scripture goes on to say that Abraham obeyed all of God's ordinances, commandments, etc. This wasn't Abraham trying to justify himself, it was a consequence of Abraham's belief and relationship with El Shaddai. What Paul is saying is that a consequence of a Christian's belief is obedience, not for justification, but because of faith in God. Just as a man doesn't intentionally walk of a cliff, a Christian doesn't intentionally kill his / her soul with sin. The path to that is to renew our mind from a depraved one to a holy one. That requires constant repentance. We are not born again with a renewed mind. We are to "work out" our salvation by renewing our mind. Again, that calls for a state of repentance. Some call it "growth," but in actuality it is repentance.

This is what God tells us to do in the Bible. Repent. I will stick with God's written formula rather than some esoteric mind experiment. :)

newnature
Apr 2nd 2016, 03:49 PM
Ok, I have some time now to respond to this



This is vague. In context of the BIble, repent means to Trust in God's authority, acknowledge Him as your Master and turn to His ways. That is why God establishes Himself as sovereign at the beginning of the 10 Commandments. This is true for ANY age.



If God expects perfection why was a sin offering instituted on Yom Kippur? Does God expect perfection from you?



I have no idea what this talking point means....


Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. People sin because they want to. That is a heart issue and has some depth to it.



Paul says Abraham was justified because he believed. Believe in this context isn't some mental exercise. The Hebrew word is "Aman." This word carries with it 100% certainty. Scripture goes on to say that Abraham obeyed all of God's ordinances, commandments, etc. This wasn't Abraham trying to justify himself, it was a consequence of Abraham's belief and relationship with El Shaddai. What Paul is saying is that a consequence of a Christian's belief is obedience, not for justification, but because of faith in God. Just as a man doesn't intentionally walk of a cliff, a Christian doesn't intentionally kill his / her soul with sin. The path to that is to renew our mind from a depraved one to a holy one. That requires constant repentance. We are not born again with a renewed mind. We are to "work out" our salvation by renewing our mind. Again, that calls for a state of repentance. Some call it "growth," but in actuality it is repentance.

This is what God tells us to do in the Bible. Repent. I will stick with God's written formula rather than some esoteric mind experiment. :)

They will continually want us to do this and stop doing that, in order to keep God happy with us when the reality is: God couldn’t be any happier with us than he is; Christ having taken our sin debt upon himself, and we having trusted what happened where our sins are concerned. 


We can now serve God out of appreciation rather than apprehension. Sin is gone as far as the judicial aspect of sin from God’s vantage point. It is taken care of once and for all! People will suffer the second death not because of the sins God’s son pain for. They have kept sin on the table of God’s justice their entire lifetimes and sat under ministers of righteousness who have led the way. 


We need to be less interested in trying to become something, or trying to do something, and we need to become a whole lot more interested in learning about who we already are, that is the key. Paul could not escape his sinful nature no matter how fervently he tried. Our fleshly bodies will never be worthy of heaven in that they will never be able to perform to the measure of the righteousness that is true of God. 


We are alive because of our identity in Christ, not at all because of our practice. As we understand what God accomplished for us through his son, we build upon that foundation the truths of who he has made us to be when he placed us into his son, we begin to view ourselves as God views us, and there is great security to be found in doing so.

newnature
Apr 2nd 2016, 04:07 PM
Undoubtedly, the Bible speaks about Israel's salvation as a nation and a people so I tend to use the Biblical term for national salvation: Deliverance. But salvation of the soul or the individual life is not absent from the OT. Paul quotes Psalm 32, for instance, in which we read

"How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!"

And again, in Psalm 51

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, [m]open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

And again, In Romans 4 Paul argues for individual justification based on faith from the account of Abraham.

1 What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 [b]Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

Now, I suspect that you are attending college or perhaps you have graduated, since what you propose sounds like the work of Biblical Scholars who tend to study the Bible for their own purposes but don't usually believe it or understand it. If this is the case, be very careful to place truth above all else and follow the evidence wherever it leads and don't lean too heavily on college professors.

In Paul’s Epistle to the Body of Christ in Ephesus, God speaks to those who are all of them on the highest ground of privilege and of grace, but in John’s Epistle, there is no blessing at all, except to the overcomers. 


To him that overcomes, will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God, this Paradise of the New Earth, which will characterize the Kingdom, was referred to by Jesus in his answer to the dying thief, (today) on this day of shame and death, beyond which you see by the eye of faith, that promise will be fulfilled to him as an overcomer. 


His faith overcame all his circumstances, and he marvelously believed in spite of all the awful scenes of that day, that Jesus was the Messiah, and that he would yet come in his Kingdom. To him, therefore, as an overcomer, was the promise of that future Paradise given, as here it is given to all who shall overcome by the same faith. 


Ephesians 1:6, the word glory here is not an adjective, Paul is not describing grace. The word glory is a noun here, it means there is a glory that belongs to God’s grace, and the glory that belongs to God’s grace is to be praised on the bases on what God’s grace has accomplished. 


Most people think of sainthood as something reserved for only a select few, but that is not the case. Paul certainly taught separation from the world, but never as the prerequisite to sainthood. Paul taught separation so that a believer might make their experience compatible with the exalted position God had already given them in Christ. 


To be positionally in Christ makes a person a saint, because you have the very righteousness of God himself freely attributed to your account. The Corinthian believers were not so different than the saints today, but saints none the less, because sainthood is not determined by an external list of rules by what we do or how we live, that is GRACE. 


The inevitable result of God’s grace to the believer is true peace, because every believer is without blame before him in love. God sees us in Christ, and Christ was blameless. Sin is not the question anymore, reconciliation is the link that connects Grace and Peace. 
Reconciliation has to do with God’s justice being satisfied for sins, and that means all of them and that means for all the world, reconciliation is a sin issue. Justification is something entirely different, it has to do with a judicial decree of the very righteousness of God himself freely attributed to the believer’s account. 
Circumcision, or the setting aside of the flesh was simply the sign, according to the apostle Paul, that God gave to Abraham to point out that Abraham had placed his faith in God and in God alone, and not in himself. 


Abraham was given the picture of the setting aside of his own flesh, in that Abraham had already placed his dependence entirely upon God. God counted Abraham to be righteous for doing so. God counted Abraham to be righteous solely on the basis of Abraham’s belief in what God told him, God would do. 


Abraham learned that it would not be his own fleshly production that would accomplish God’s purpose for him. It is significant when we think about Abraham’s faith, that God wanted Abraham to place no confidence in his flesh.


What Paul wants us to see here in Romans chapter 4, is that God justified Abraham (declared Abraham to be righteous) solely on the basis of Abraham’s belief. Paul wants to make it crystal clear that Abraham was not justified according to a ritual, a ceremonial observance, even the ritual of circumcision that Abraham was given to perform.

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2016, 05:06 PM
Then this would not have been necessary. In contrast to the land, Yahweh’s sanctuary can be purified for moral impurity by means of a special sacrifice. The blood of the animal, the blood of the sacrifice is the key to the whole ritual. Blood, the blood that courses through one’s veins, represents the life force; the Noahide covenant, you may not spill human blood. And you may not eat animal flesh that has the lifeblood in it, because the blood is the life and that belongs to Yahweh, that’s holy. 


So the life force is holy, and the life force is in the blood; Leviticus 17:11, repeats the blood prohibition, and then it offers a rationale. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have assigned it to you for making expiation for your lives upon the altar.” Yahweh assigned it to them to use in sacrificial practices. It is the blood as life that effects expiation, purging and atonement. The blood of sacrificial animals is assigned by Yahweh as a detergent, if you will, to cleanse the sanctuary of the impurities that are caused by the sinful deeds of the Israelites. 


Purification of the sanctuary was believed to be critical to the health and the well-being of the community. If the sanctuary is not purged of impurity, it can become polluted to the point when Yahweh is driven out entirely. The purification offering acts on the sanctuary, not on the offerer. It purges the sanctuary of the defilement that is symbolically; it has symbolically suffered from the offerer’s state of ritual impurity or sinfulness. Once the sanctuary is purged, the offerer has settled his debt, he’s repaired the damage he caused. He’s fully atoned, and Yahweh is no longer repelled by the impurity that marred his sanctuary.

The defiling effect of lesser transgressions is calibrated to the sinner’s intentionality and the presence of absence of repentance. So inadvertent sins can be purged, the sanctuary defilement that they cause can be purged by bringing a purification sacrifice. Deliberate sins, as long as there is repentance, then they are converted into inadvertent sins, and they also can be purged, or the impurity they cause can be purged with a purification sacrifice. But brazen unrepentant sins, unrepented sins or unintentional sins that are never realized, these stand unremedied, and they defile the sanctuary. For this reason, the sanctuary has to be regularly purged of the accumulated defilements accruing to it as a result of such sins.

On the day of atonement, a purification sacrifice is brought on behalf of the community to purify the sanctuary of the impurities that have been caused by Israel’s sin. And the high priest loads all of the sins and impurities of the Israelites on the head of a goat, which then carries them off into the wilderness away from the sanctuary. Every sin pollutes the sanctuary; it may not mark the sinner, but, it does mark the sanctuary. It scars the face of the sanctuary. You may think you’ve gotten away with something, but every act of social exploitation, every act of moral corruption, pollutes the sanctuary more and more until such time as Yahweh is driven out entirely, and human society is devoured by its own viciousness and death-dealing. Humans are in control of their destiny, and the action of every individual affects and influences the fate of society. Collective responsibility; sin affects, individual sin affects the entire fabric of society. There’s no such thing as an isolated evil; our deeds affect one another. And when evildoers are finally punished, they bring down others with them, those others aren’t so blameless, because they allowed the wicked to flourish and contribute to the pollution of the sanctuary, the corruption of society.

Holy things only exist because of safeguards, rules that keep them separate, that demarcate them. And these safeguards and rules are naturally addressed to human beings. They are the ones charged with the task of preserving the holy in its residence on earth. Although holiness derives from Yahweh, humans have a crucial role to play in sanctification, the Sabbath, Yahweh sanctified the Sabbath at creation; he demarcated it as holy. But Israel is the one to affirm its holiness by observing the rules that make it different, that mark it off as holy. So Israel doesn’t just in fact affirm the holy status of the Sabbath, they actualize the holy status of the Sabbath. If Israel doesn’t observe the prohibitions that distinguish the Sabbath as sacred, it’s automatically desecrated. There are two components integral and inseparable in the concept of holiness: Initial assignment of holy status by Yahweh and establishment of rules to preserve that holy status; and secondly, actualization of that holiness by humans through the observance of the commandments and rules that mark that thing off as holy.If Israel wasn't so stubborn, there would have never been a need for the Law and sacrifice. Jesus was the last sacrifice long before Adam and Eve came into existence. Israel wanted rules... and they got what they wanted.

Tell me, in the OT... why were Gentiles still being saved and they never sacrificed any animal to God?

keck553
Apr 2nd 2016, 05:58 PM
They will continually want us to do this and stop doing that, in order to keep God happy with us when the reality is: God couldn’t be any happier with us than he is; Christ having taken our sin debt upon himself, and we having trusted what happened where our sins are concerned. 


Who is "they" and who is "us?"



We can now serve God out of appreciation rather than apprehension. Sin is gone as far as the judicial aspect of sin from God’s vantage point. It is taken care of once and for all! People will suffer the second death not because of the sins God’s son pain for. They have kept sin on the table of God’s justice their entire lifetimes and sat under ministers of righteousness who have led the way. 


Where is your evidence that Israel served God under apprehension? And no, sin is not gone, sin is covered. Every time you lie, steal, look at someone with lust, or break any of God's standards, you are sinning, whether you are saved or not saved. I would hope God's people wold not have the desire to commit avon or pesha.



We need to be less interested in trying to become something, or trying to do something, and we need to become a whole lot more interested in learning about who we already are, that is the key. Paul could not escape his sinful nature no matter how fervently he tried. Our fleshly bodies will never be worthy of heaven in that they will never be able to perform to the measure of the righteousness that is true of God. 


Obedience to God is a consequence of relationship with Him. It has nothing to do with "trying to do something." Abraham accomplished it, so can we.



We are alive because of our identity in Christ, not at all because of our practice. As we understand what God accomplished for us through his son, we build upon that foundation the truths of who he has made us to be when he placed us into his son, we begin to view ourselves as God views us, and there is great security to be found in doing so.

Practice is a consequence of faith. If you have faith, you will not sin willfully. It's as simple as that.

By the way, you avoided answering my questions.

1. Why did God institute a sin offering if He expected perfection?
2. What did Abraham DO as a consequence of his belief?

Do you understand the difference between a born again Christian and a nominal Christian?

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 06:15 PM
Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and God looked for them, came into their presence, allowed them to be in His presence after they sinned. He was able to come into the presence of two sinners, why?Because he can?


Because of grace.

Grace was in place and active before creation even came into existence because Christ was slain before the very foundation of the world had come into existence.There's no reason to think God could be in the presence of sinners because of a sacrifice that had not yet occurred.

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 06:42 PM
Simon was destitute of the grace of God? Is that from a translation of scripture you use, or your personal interpretation?Study it out. What does
"Thy money perish with thee"
"Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God"
"thy wickedness"
"thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity"
mean? How does that sound like a believer to you? Someone comes up to you and asks to buy God's power, you're not going to think they're a believer. You're not, and lying if you say you would. I've said on this forum Simon was a believer because it says so, but I was ignoring what else it says. Also, when you did deeper into the terminology it's undeniable that he was not.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(21) Neither part nor lot.—A like, though not an identical, combination of the two words meets us in Colossians 1:12. On the latter, see Notes on Acts 1:17; Acts 1:25. It is, perhaps, used here in its secondary sense. Simon had no inheritance in the spiritual gifts nor in the spiritual offices of the Church. The power attached to the apostleship was not a thing for traffic.

Thy heart is not right in the sight of God.—“Straight” or “right” is used, as in Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, for “straightforward,” not in the secondary sense of “being as it ought to be.” The word is not of frequent occurrence in the New Testament, but, like so many of the spoken words of St. Peter, meets us again as coming from his pen (2Peter 2:15).

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Neither part - You have no "portion" of the grace of God; that is, you are destitute of it altogether. This word commonly denotes the "part" of an inheritance which falls to one when it is divided.

Nor lot - This word means properly a portion which "falls" to one when an estate, or when spoil in war is divided into portions, according to the number of those who are to be partakers, and the part of each one is determined by "lot." The two words denote "emphatically" that he was in no sense a partaker of the favor of God.

In this matter - Greek: in this "word"; that is, thing. That which is referred to here is the religion of Christ. Simon was not a Christian. It is remarkable that Peter judged him so soon, and when he had seen but "one" act of his. But it was an act which satisfied him that he was a stranger to religion. One act may sometimes bring out the "whole character"; it may evince the "governing" motives; it may show traits of character utterly "inconsistent" with true religion; and then it is as certain a criterion as any long series of acts.

Thy heart - Your "affections," or "governing motives"; your principle of conduct. Comp, 2 Kings 10:15. You love gold and popularity, and not the gospel for what it is. There is no evidence here that Peter saw this in a miraculous manner, or by any supernatural influence. It was apparent and plain that Simon was not influenced by the pure, disinterested motives of the gospel, but by the love of power and of the world.

In the sight of God - That is, God sees or judges that your heart is not sincere and pure. No external profession is acceptable without the heart. Reader, is your heart right with God? Are your motives pure; and does "God" see there the exercise of holy, sincere, and benevolent affections toward him? God "knows" the motives; and with unerring certainty he will judge, and with unerring justice he will fix our doom according to the affections of the heart.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
21. Thou hast neither part nor lot … thy heart is not fight, &c.—This is the fidelity of a minister of Christ to one deceiving himself in a very awful manner.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Neither part nor lot in this matter; no inheritance or share in such a thing as this, to wit, either in the receiving or conferring the Holy Ghost; or in that eternal life which we preach; thou hast no part in it, neither art thou fit to be a minister of it.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter,.... Or business of the gift of the Holy Ghost; signifying, that as he had not the grace of the Spirit of God implanted in him, so he should not have any of the gifts of the Spirit bestowed on him; and much less a power of communicating them to others, through laying on of hands: or "in this word"; the word of the Gospel, preached by the apostles; and in any of the blessings published in it, as the forgiveness of sins, a justifying righteousness, and eternal life; and so the Syraic version renders it, "in this faith"; neither in the grace of faith, nor in the doctrine of faith: it seems to answer to a way of speaking frequently used among the Jews, that such and such persons, , "have no part or lot", in the world to come (i). The Ethiopic version reads, "because of this thy word"; because for his money, he had desired to have a power of bestowing the Holy Ghost on persons, through the imposition of his hands; which showed he had no share in the grace of God, and would have no part in eternal life, thus living and dying:

for thy heart is not right in the sight of God; he had not a clean heart, nor a right spirit created in him; he had not true principles of grace wrought in him; his heart was full of covetousness, ambition, and hypocrisy; he had no good designs, ends, and aims, in what he said and did; in his profession of faith, in his baptism, in his attendance on Philip's ministry, and in his request for the above power, of conferring the Holy Ghost: his view was not the spread and confirmation of the Gospel, or the enlargement of the kingdom and interest of Christ, and the glory of God, but his own applause and worldly interest; and therefore, however he might be thought of by men, to be a good and disinterested man, he was otherwise in the sight of God, who is the searcher of the heart, and the trier of the reins of the children of men.



Yes, he clearly sinned... but destitute of God's grace? The fact that he saw his error (finally) and asked for prayer (James 5:16 in action) show us what?Again, just sinned? Really? and the fact that he asked for them to pray is yet another indication he had no clue or relationship himself.



If a brother, or a sister in Christ, a week or two after they believed and was baptized, sinned in your presence as Simon did in the presence of Peter, you (Noeb) rebuke the sin they did (as Peter did) and they asked for you to pray for them... are you gonna say to them, "you are destitute of the grace of God?"Yes. Someone wants to buy God, I will quote Peter. You betchya. You wouldn't? Don't model your life after scripture? What's up?



Or are you gonna pray for them after you rebuked their wickednessDoes it say they prayed for him?



You say this example through Simon is a lousy example of how a Christian can sin AFTER they believe and are a member of the Body?

It is a perfect example.It's not an "example of how a Christian can sin AFTER they believe and are a member of the Body"

So, have another example of a born again believer repenting of a sin?

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 06:55 PM
Care to expand in this?
Nothing to explain, I don't think, but maybe I didn't understand your wording. You said repentance is "more than just turning. It's Who we turn to and Who we choose to be our Lord that makes all the difference"

What does "it's Who we choose to be our Lord" mean? Maybe bad grammar or something but it seemed to me you were saying repentance is also the result of repentance and that's simply not true. Many repent then fall away. Can't say they didn't repent. They did. They didn't stay in the faith. That's a separate issue. If that's not what you were saying can you explain it?

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2016, 07:44 PM
Study it out. What does
"Thy money perish with thee"
"Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God"
"thy wickedness"
"thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity"
mean? How does that sound like a believer to you? Someone comes up to you and asks to buy God's power, you're not going to think they're a believer. You're not, and lying if you say you would. I've said on this forum Simon was a believer because it says so, but I was ignoring what else it says. Also, when you did deeper into the terminology it's undeniable that he was not.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(21) Neither part nor lot.—A like, though not an identical, combination of the two words meets us in Colossians 1:12. On the latter, see Notes on Acts 1:17; Acts 1:25. It is, perhaps, used here in its secondary sense. Simon had no inheritance in the spiritual gifts nor in the spiritual offices of the Church. The power attached to the apostleship was not a thing for traffic.

Thy heart is not right in the sight of God.—“Straight” or “right” is used, as in Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, for “straightforward,” not in the secondary sense of “being as it ought to be.” The word is not of frequent occurrence in the New Testament, but, like so many of the spoken words of St. Peter, meets us again as coming from his pen (2Peter 2:15).

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Neither part - You have no "portion" of the grace of God; that is, you are destitute of it altogether. This word commonly denotes the "part" of an inheritance which falls to one when it is divided.

Nor lot - This word means properly a portion which "falls" to one when an estate, or when spoil in war is divided into portions, according to the number of those who are to be partakers, and the part of each one is determined by "lot." The two words denote "emphatically" that he was in no sense a partaker of the favor of God.

In this matter - Greek: in this "word"; that is, thing. That which is referred to here is the religion of Christ. Simon was not a Christian. It is remarkable that Peter judged him so soon, and when he had seen but "one" act of his. But it was an act which satisfied him that he was a stranger to religion. One act may sometimes bring out the "whole character"; it may evince the "governing" motives; it may show traits of character utterly "inconsistent" with true religion; and then it is as certain a criterion as any long series of acts.

Thy heart - Your "affections," or "governing motives"; your principle of conduct. Comp, 2 Kings 10:15. You love gold and popularity, and not the gospel for what it is. There is no evidence here that Peter saw this in a miraculous manner, or by any supernatural influence. It was apparent and plain that Simon was not influenced by the pure, disinterested motives of the gospel, but by the love of power and of the world.

In the sight of God - That is, God sees or judges that your heart is not sincere and pure. No external profession is acceptable without the heart. Reader, is your heart right with God? Are your motives pure; and does "God" see there the exercise of holy, sincere, and benevolent affections toward him? God "knows" the motives; and with unerring certainty he will judge, and with unerring justice he will fix our doom according to the affections of the heart.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
21. Thou hast neither part nor lot … thy heart is not fight, &c.—This is the fidelity of a minister of Christ to one deceiving himself in a very awful manner.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Neither part nor lot in this matter; no inheritance or share in such a thing as this, to wit, either in the receiving or conferring the Holy Ghost; or in that eternal life which we preach; thou hast no part in it, neither art thou fit to be a minister of it.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter,.... Or business of the gift of the Holy Ghost; signifying, that as he had not the grace of the Spirit of God implanted in him, so he should not have any of the gifts of the Spirit bestowed on him; and much less a power of communicating them to others, through laying on of hands: or "in this word"; the word of the Gospel, preached by the apostles; and in any of the blessings published in it, as the forgiveness of sins, a justifying righteousness, and eternal life; and so the Syraic version renders it, "in this faith"; neither in the grace of faith, nor in the doctrine of faith: it seems to answer to a way of speaking frequently used among the Jews, that such and such persons, , "have no part or lot", in the world to come (i). The Ethiopic version reads, "because of this thy word"; because for his money, he had desired to have a power of bestowing the Holy Ghost on persons, through the imposition of his hands; which showed he had no share in the grace of God, and would have no part in eternal life, thus living and dying:

for thy heart is not right in the sight of God; he had not a clean heart, nor a right spirit created in him; he had not true principles of grace wrought in him; his heart was full of covetousness, ambition, and hypocrisy; he had no good designs, ends, and aims, in what he said and did; in his profession of faith, in his baptism, in his attendance on Philip's ministry, and in his request for the above power, of conferring the Holy Ghost: his view was not the spread and confirmation of the Gospel, or the enlargement of the kingdom and interest of Christ, and the glory of God, but his own applause and worldly interest; and therefore, however he might be thought of by men, to be a good and disinterested man, he was otherwise in the sight of God, who is the searcher of the heart, and the trier of the reins of the children of men.


Again, just sinned? Really? and the fact that he asked for them to pray is yet another indication he had no clue or relationship himself.


Yes. Someone wants to buy God, I will quote Peter. You betchya. You wouldn't? Don't model your life after scripture? What's up?


Does it say they prayed for him?


It's not an "example of how a Christian can sin AFTER they believe and are a member of the Body"

So, have another example of a born again believer repenting of a sin?Do you believe it is a sin to NOT forgive a brother or sister when they have wronged you?

Also, does the Bible not instruct us to abstain from wickedness, if so... why?

Also... read 1/2 Corinthians. A whole bunch of sinning born-again Christians and Paul has to rebuke and correct all their sinning. He called them saints though... maybe he has more patience than Peter :)

Is that enough example :P

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 10:00 PM
Do you believe it is a sin to NOT forgive a brother or sister when they have wronged you?

Also, does the Bible not instruct us to abstain from wickedness, if so... why?How are these applicable?



Also... read 1/2 Corinthians. A whole bunch of sinning born-again Christians and Paul has to rebuke and correct all their sinning. He called them saints though... maybe he has more patience than Peter :)

Is that enough example :PWho said we should not rebuke sinning Christians? The question was where is a believer repenting of a sin in scripture?

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2016, 10:48 PM
How are these applicable?The Bible says we are to forgive those who hurt us, so when a Christian says they won't forgive another who hurt them, is the one who is being unforgiving... sinning?



Who said we should not rebuke sinning Christians? The question was where is a believer repenting of a sin in scripture?Simon is instructed to repent of his sin. If a Christian you know who has sinned, you rebuke them of the sin, as Peter did Simon, would you NOT inform the sinning Christian they need to repent, as Peter did Simon?

Another question... do you say the Lord's Prayer and if so, do you leave the part out about forgiving us of our trespasses? Was Jesus wrong in instructing us to seek forgiveness of our trespasses?

Noeb
Apr 2nd 2016, 11:16 PM
The Bible says we are to forgive those who hurt us, so when a Christian says they won't forgive another who hurt them, is the one who is being unforgiving... sinning?You just repeated the question. You didn't explain how it's applicable to a scripture of a believer repenting of a sin.



Simon is instructed to repent of his sin. If a Christian you know who has sinned, you rebuke them of the sin, as Peter did Simon, would you NOT inform the sinning Christian they need to repent, as Peter did Simon?Based on what you have described, I don't know if they need to change their mind or not. If I know them well enough, I'd probably know if they knew and agreed with God it was sin, so I would know whether or not they needed their mind changed about it.



Another question... do you say the Lord's PrayerNo, I don't think it was given for just repeating.



do you leave the part out about forgiving us of our trespasses? Was Jesus wrong in instructing us to seek forgiveness of our trespasses?No, he was teaching us the nature of prayer. 1John describes it as a walk in the light whereby IF we sin we agree (confess) with God we have sinned and we are continually cleansed. Again, how is this related to the discussion of repenting?

Slug1
Apr 3rd 2016, 02:23 AM
You just repeated the question. You didn't explain how it's applicable to a scripture of a believer repenting of a sin.


Based on what you have described, I don't know if they need to change their mind or not. If I know them well enough, I'd probably know if they knew and agreed with God it was sin, so I would know whether or not they needed their mind changed about it.


No, I don't think it was given for just repeating.


No, he was teaching us the nature of prayer. 1John describes it as a walk in the light whereby IF we sin we agree (confess) with God we have sinned and we are continually cleansed. Again, how is this related to the discussion of repenting?Noeb, when a Christian sins... what is the purpose of confessing the sin to God or to another Christian?

Noeb
Apr 3rd 2016, 04:00 AM
Noeb, when a Christian sins... what is the purpose of confessing the sin to God or to another Christian?What does my posts say?

Noeb
Apr 3rd 2016, 04:51 AM
I disagree with your title as ambassador as all you've been teaching so far is what can actually be a NEW form of... GREASY GRACE.I don't agree with everything newnature has said but as I say there's a lot of truth there I will also say I too have been falsely accused of greasy grace. What I see is newnature trying to explain that a lot of people don't really know who they are In Christ, the knowledge of Christ. Peter and Paul talked about, and the need for, believers to realize what Christ did for them and to them -Eph 1:3, 17-19, 2:6; Col 3:1-3, 10; Php 3:8; 2Pe 1:2, 8, 2:20, 3:18. Hebrews goes far and deep into what our high priest accomplished through his sinless and endless life and sacrifice. Just as Israel turned what was intended to be relationship and fellowship with God into man made religion, Christians have turned the new and living way of Christ into man made religion. If I don't do x, y won't happen. If I don't ask for forgiveness I'm not forgiven. Really? Is your (not you specifically Slug1, speaking generally) God so small? Does he not know your heart? He loves you so much that he will damn you if you don't ask for forgiveness for a sin? If that's what you think about God, like Simon the sorcerer, you've got bigger issues to deal with than a sin. You've got man made religion, not relationship and fellowship. You've got law, not grace. You are focused on yourself, claiming to deny self. It's all about you and your sin and what you need to do to be in right standing before God. Oh we won't be damned we're just supposed to ask for forgiveness. What? Sorry but that's just dead works nonsense and mentality. I thought it was about being forgiven, filled, given abundant life to self not death to self, free from sin/sinning, and loving and living for him because he lived and love me (self) to death, literally, and I'm (self) supposed to do that, literally. Not love myself so much all I do is worry about myself and whether or not I've read my bible, gone to church, paid money, and prayed. Israel did that. Did it work? Other religions do that. Does it work? What is supposed to set Christianity apart from the rest is immediate death to the old man. That old man that needed daily sacrifice and had a conscience of sin is dead and gone to live no more. Then he's raised a new man and made alive, having his heart sprinkled from an evil conscience, to live the rest of his days to the will of God in a new and living way. How can a Christian say believing the gospel is greasy grace when the cost of believing is so high? Playing man made religion doesn't have to cost anything -greasy grace.

Slug1
Apr 3rd 2016, 05:26 PM
What does my posts say?Your posts say that once a Christian, the confessing a sin that one has done is coming into agreement with God about the sin.

Is this correct?

So what does God do when one comes into such an agreement, when they sin after having become a Christian?

In other words, what is one seeking FROM God by confessing any sin that they may do after becoming a Christian?

Noeb
Apr 3rd 2016, 06:52 PM
The primary concern is not seeking forgiveness. According to 1John as you walk with him, if you sin and agree you have sinned, you are a believer and are continually cleansed. Doesn't say anything about seeking. It's not a, oh I have sinned-I better ask for forgiveness or I won't be forgiven, or I better agree or I won't be forgiven, the believer just agrees. They can't do otherwise. 1John contrasts a believer and gnostic. A believer agrees with God. The gnostic says, well that was just my flesh, my spirit is clean, I have no sin. The believer was concerned about sinning. The gnostic was not. It's about ones attitude of sinning not forgiveness. Forgiveness is the secondary issue and a result of walking in the light. The primary concern is the attitude towards sinning. A brother is concerned about whether or not he loves his brother. A gnostic is not. If you're concerned about it, don't want to sin but do (IF we sin, not WHEN we sin as if it's not a big deal, we have an advocate) and know you have, you are continually cleansed by his blood. It's about a walk, not a kneeling in prayer.

keck553
Apr 3rd 2016, 07:42 PM
Nothing to explain, I don't think, but maybe I didn't understand your wording. You said repentance is "more than just turning. It's Who we turn to and Who we choose to be our Lord that makes all the difference"

What does "it's Who we choose to be our Lord" mean? Maybe bad grammar or something but it seemed to me you were saying repentance is also the result of repentance and that's simply not true. Many repent then fall away. Can't say they didn't repent. They did. They didn't stay in the faith. That's a separate issue. If that's not what you were saying can you explain it?

Coming to grips that Jesus is our Lord has nothing to do with repentance, so I have no idea how you can suggest repentance is a result of repentance. When I discover I sinned, I acknowledge it and turn to the Lord's Way and leave it buried where it belongs. This is part of sanctification. No one's mind is "renewed" the instant they acknowledge Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

I understand that positionally, we are covered by the righteousness of Christ, but that doesn't mean we don't sin. 1 John 1:8 is clear about that, and John is using "we" as in "Christians."

For example, I had a debate with Slug-1 about forgiveness. There may come a time when God leads me to discover I am wrong about my position. So upon that revelation, I repent and turn to God's Way. It doesn't mean I am sorry or I have to beg for forgiveness, I means I repent and turn to God's Way. This is a state we are in constantly, that is why the writers of the Apostolic Scriptures teach us about spiritual warfare and growth in Christ. If we came out of the "born from above" chute perfected, we would need no teaching or training in righteousness. But I can attest to you that every single Christian I have met has not reached that state.

Noeb
Apr 3rd 2016, 07:48 PM
Coming to grips that Jesus is our Lord has nothing to do with repentance, so I have no idea how you can suggest repentance is a result of repentance. When I discover I sinned, I acknowledge it and turn to the Lord's Way and leave it buried where it belongs. This is part of sanctification. No one's mind is "renewed" the instant they acknowledge Jesus is their Lord and Savior.
Well I don't know what you originally meant or why you said what you did here.

keck553
Apr 3rd 2016, 07:54 PM
Well I don't know what you originally meant or why you said what you did here.

I meant that either the real Jesus is our Lord, or a false Jesus is our Lord

Slug1
Apr 3rd 2016, 08:24 PM
The primary concern is not seeking forgiveness. According to 1John as you walk with him, if you sin and agree you have sinned, you are a believer and are continually cleansed. Doesn't say anything about seeking. It's not a, oh I have sinned-I better ask for forgiveness or I won't be forgiven, or I better agree or I won't be forgiven, the believer just agrees. They can't do otherwise. 1John contrasts a believer and gnostic. A believer agrees with God. The gnostic says, well that was just my flesh, my spirit is clean, I have no sin. The believer was concerned about sinning. The gnostic was not. It's about ones attitude of sinning not forgiveness. Forgiveness is the secondary issue and a result of walking in the light. The primary concern is the attitude towards sinning. A brother is concerned about whether or not he loves his brother. A gnostic is not. If you're concerned about it, don't want to sin but do (IF we sin, not WHEN we sin as if it's not a big deal, we have an advocate) and know you have, you are continually cleansed by his blood. It's about a walk, not a kneeling in prayer.There is a series of actions when a Christian sins:

1) Realizing the sin was done, brings two actions... repentance and confession.
2) The acts of repentance and confession before God brings what... God's forgiveness.

Now... you having a problem with the use of the word, "seeking" is nothing but the typical problem with semantics that many Christian's have with each other. So when I say, I am seeking forgiveness of God, what I am doing is 1) Repenting, 2) Confessing and 3) God forgives me.

You are the one who raised the very verse I'd use for support: v9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Noeb
Apr 3rd 2016, 10:03 PM
You're not getting it. What did you change your mind about? How'd you manage to inject that? It's not in 1John.

newnature
Apr 3rd 2016, 10:34 PM
What is God's gift to the human race?

Slug1
Apr 3rd 2016, 11:02 PM
You're not getting it. Not getting what?


What did you change your mind about?

I don't know... what do you mean?


How'd you manage to inject that?
Interject what?


It's not in 1John.The verse is from 1 John 1.

newnature
Apr 3rd 2016, 11:05 PM
What is God's free gift to the human race?

Kingsdaughter
Apr 4th 2016, 12:06 AM
What is God's free gift to the human race?
Salvation. The forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ.

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 01:32 AM
Salvation. The forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ.

Our faith in Jesus Christ's faithfulness. When you accept your redeemer and the ransom he paid, then you are joined to Christ and you have his righteousness attributed to your account. Grace is Grace. Salvation is a Gift. God in his sovereignty offers that Gift and allows the human race to accept or reject the Gift.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 03:08 PM
What is God's free gift to the human race?

Is this a pop quiz? Reconciliation.


Our faith in Jesus Christ's faithfulness. When you accept your redeemer and the ransom he paid, then you are joined to Christ and you have his righteousness attributed to your account. Grace is Grace. Salvation is a Gift. God in his sovereignty offers that Gift and allows the human race to accept or reject the Gift.

Is Abraham with God?

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 05:25 PM
Is this a pop quiz? Reconciliation.



Is Abraham with God?

No, the whole human race is reconciled to God. It is up to those of the world to either accept or reject their redeemer, but that does no less make Jesus Christ their redeemer. Those who reject the Gift, are thumbing their noses at the one who died to paid that price, that price for their redemption. Those who reject their redeemer will face the ultimate consequences of that rejection, the second death.

Abraham is here. In the Old Testament, the word “sheol” is the underground depository of the dead. There are no immaterial, immortal souls in sheol, simply because the soul does not survive the death of the body.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 05:31 PM
No, the whole human race is reconciled to God. It is up to those of the world to either accept or reject their redeemer, but that does no less make Jesus Christ their redeemer. Those who reject the Gift, are thumbing their noses at the one who died to paid that price, that price for their redemption. Those who reject their redeemer will face the ultimate consequences of that rejection, the second death.

Abraham is here. In the Old Testament, the word “sheol” is the underground depository of the dead. There are no immaterial, immortal souls in sheol, simply because the soul does not survive the death of the body.

I'd like to see Biblical evidence supporting your last statement, or is this merely your opinion?

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 05:35 PM
I'd like to see Biblical evidence supporting your last statement, or is this merely your opinion?

This is what my apostle taught, read Romans. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person. Sin causes a debt to God so large that it can never be paid by ourselves, but the person who knows what Jesus Christ really accomplished, exist in a completely new relationship with God. Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ’s righteousness. 


Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive. God could only declare us to be right on the bases of who and what he is, not on the bases of who and what we would be apart from him. God had to devise a way to see us that way, and the way he devised to do that was by joining us to, hiding us in our perfectly righteous savior, thus freely crediting to our account Christ righteousness. 

Reconciliation and sanctification are not one and the same, they are two different truths. A sanctified identity in Christ comes not as a result of behavior, it comes as a result of belief. What an identification God has given you, every believer’s sanctification comes by way of your union-identification with Christ Jesus.

We find the amazing and comforting truth that God’s love for those who are joined to his son, is the same unalterable and unending love God has for his son. The judicial decree of rightness God grants to those who believe is called justification, God alters your identity by removing you judicially in God’s mind from an identification with the first Adam and now you are judicially identified with the last Adam (Christ Jesus). That joining itself is where sanctification comes into play; sanctification is not a process, it is a past tense accomplishment that can never be revised, reduced, or retracted.

Do your own research on 'sheol'.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 05:36 PM
No, the whole human race is reconciled to God. It is up to those of the world to either accept or reject their redeemer, but that does no less make Jesus Christ their redeemer. Those who reject the Gift, are thumbing their noses at the one who died to paid that price, that price for their redemption. Those who reject their redeemer will face the ultimate consequences of that rejection, the second death.

Abraham is here. In the Old Testament, the word “sheol” is the underground depository of the dead. There are no immaterial, immortal souls in sheol, simply because the soul does not survive the death of the body.

Where was Abraham and the thirsty rich guy who Jesus told us about? Where did Moses and Elijah come from during the transfiguration?

By the way, there are still questions lingering from post #69 you haven't addressed.

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 05:37 PM
I'd like to see Biblical evidence supporting your last statement, or is this merely your opinion?

What is God free gift to the human race?

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 05:43 PM
This is what my apostle taught, read Romans.

"Your" apostle? What? You need to explain that to me.

Also, I have read and studied Romans many times. Can you be more specific?



What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person. Sin causes a debt to God so large that it can never be paid by ourselves, but the person who knows what Jesus Christ really accomplished, exist in a completely new relationship with God. Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ’s righteousness.

Yes, this is basic Christian doctrine.



Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive. God could only declare us to be right on the bases of who and what he is, not on the bases of who and what we would be apart from him. God had to devise a way to see us that way, and the way he devised to do that was by joining us to, hiding us in our perfectly righteous savior, thus freely crediting to our account Christ righteousness.

Yes, this is basic Christian doctrine.



Reconciliation and sanctification are not one and the same, they are two different truths. A sanctified identity in Christ comes not as a result of behavior, it comes as a result of belief. What an identification God has given you, every believer’s sanctification comes by way of your union-identification with Christ Jesus.

Yes, this is basic Christian doctrine. But we are talking about discipleship, not positional legal terms. This was one of the problems with the Pharisees, they thought that merely being descendant of Abraham brought them into the Kingdom, and nominal Christians have this same issue.

So, what was the fruit of Abraham's faith, and what is the fruit of Christian faith - in tangible terms? Can you explore that one, because all 66 books of the Bible speak to this.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 05:47 PM
Do your own research on 'sheol'.

It's good that you don't expect anyone to accept your doctrine on "shoel," but this forum is for exploring doctrine and tying it to Scripture, so my question is just taking the natural course of 2 Timothy 2:15.

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 05:53 PM
"Your" apostle? What? You need to explain that to me.

Also, I have read and studied Romans many times. Can you be more specific?



Yes, this is basic Christian doctrine.



Yes, this is basic Christian doctrine.



Yes, this is basic Christian doctrine. But we are talking about discipleship, not positional legal terms. This was one of the problems with the Pharisees, they thought that merely being descendant of Abraham brought them into the Kingdom, and nominal Christians have this same issue.

So, what was the fruit of Abraham's faith, and what is the fruit of Christian faith - in tangible terms? Can you explore that one, because all 66 books of the Bible speak to this.

The Hellenistic Israelites adopt the belief in the immortality of the soul and the idea of a spatial separation in the underworld between the righteous and the godless. The souls of the righteous proceeded immediately after death to heavenly felicity, there to await the resurrection, while the souls of the godless went to a place of torment in ‘hades.’ When Jesus came on the scene, the current Israelite concept of Hades became a subterraneous region where the light of this world does not shine. This region is allowed as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one’s behavior and manners. 


According to Hellenistic Israelites, ‘hades’ is divided into two regions. One is the region of light, where the souls of the righteous dead are brought by angels to the place known as the bosom of Abraham.” The second region is in perpetual darkness, and the souls of the ungodly are dragged by force by the angels allotted for punishment. These angels drag the ungodly into the neighborhood of hell itself, so that they can see and feel the heat of the flames, but they are not thrown into hell itself, until after the final judgment. But a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that has compassion upon them, cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. 


Jesus did indeed capitalized on the popular understanding of the condition of the dead in ‘hades,’ not to endorse such views, but to drive home the importance of heeding in this present life the teachings of Moses and the prophets, because this determines bliss or misery in the world to come.

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 05:56 PM
It's good that you don't expect anyone to accept your doctrine on "shoel," but this forum is for exploring doctrine and tying it to Scripture, so my question is just taking the natural course of 2 Timothy 2:15.


Are you sure that 2 Timothy 2:15 isn't pointing it's figure at you. What is God's free gift to the human race?

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 06:05 PM
The Hellenistic Israelites adopt the belief in the immortality of the soul and the idea of a spatial separation in the underworld between the righteous and the godless. The souls of the righteous proceeded immediately after death to heavenly felicity, there to await the resurrection, while the souls of the godless went to a place of torment in ‘hades.’ When Jesus came on the scene, the current Israelite concept of Hades became a subterraneous region where the light of this world does not shine. This region is allowed as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one’s behavior and manners. 


According to Hellenistic Israelites, ‘hades’ is divided into two regions. One is the region of light, where the souls of the righteous dead are brought by angels to the place known as the bosom of Abraham.” The second region is in perpetual darkness, and the souls of the ungodly are dragged by force by the angels allotted for punishment. These angels drag the ungodly into the neighborhood of hell itself, so that they can see and feel the heat of the flames, but they are not thrown into hell itself, until after the final judgment. But a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that has compassion upon them, cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. 


Jesus did indeed capitalized on the popular understanding of the condition of the dead in ‘hades,’ not to endorse such views, but to drive home the importance of heeding in this present life the teachings of Moses and the prophets, because this determines bliss or misery in the world to come.

Not all Jews in the 1st century were stained with Greek thought, so this reasoning only extends to heretics. In in that space, you are saying Jesus teaching on Abraham and the rich dude is an allegory? Really?

But you didn't address my other concerns.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 06:08 PM
Are you sure that 2 Timothy 2:15 isn't pointing it's figure at you. What is God's free gift to the human race?

Paul is pointing his finger at ALL of us, so again, the natural course is to "test the spirits," especially when the doctrine being presented is apocryphal.

I already answered your other (free gift) question. If you want a summary, your answer is in John 3:16, but if you are looking for specifics, you need to narrow your question.

Can you answer my questions?

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 06:16 PM
Paul is pointing his finger at ALL of us, so again, the natural course is to "test the spirits," especially when the doctrine being presented is apocryphal.

I already answered your other (free gift) question. If you want a summary, your answer is in John 3:16, but if you are looking for specifics, you need to narrow your question.

Can you answer my questions?

Jesus was sent to Israel, not to the world. We have to allow God to tell us in the Word, the portions of that Word that are specifically written about and directly apply to us. If you read the words “ye men of Israel,” “ye men of Judaea” do not take from the table of that nation and put that instruction on your plate. You are not the nation Israel. You are not under the law, they were. You are under grace! What does a secret mean to you? Why are you putting conditions on God's free gift to the human race?

Slug1
Apr 4th 2016, 06:21 PM
Jesus was sent to Israel, not to the world. We have to allow God to tell us in the Word, the portions of that Word that are specifically written about and directly apply to us. If you read the words “ye men of Israel,” “ye men of Judaea” do not take from the table of that nation and put that instruction on your plate. You are not the nation Israel. You are not under the law, they were. You are under grace! What does a secret mean to you? Why are you putting conditions on God's free gift to the human race?I'm sorry but when you apply the context of the scriptures, in God's eyes, there ARE no Jews/Gentiles... there is only mankind.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 07:24 PM
Jesus was sent to Israel, not to the world. We have to allow God to tell us in the Word, the portions of that Word that are specifically written about and directly apply to us. If you read the words “ye men of Israel,” “ye men of Judaea” do not take from the table of that nation and put that instruction on your plate. You are not the nation Israel. You are not under the law, they were. You are under grace! What does a secret mean to you? Why are you putting conditions on God's free gift to the human race?

Exactly where did I put conditions on salvation? You did that, but saying a person must "choose" to accept God's free gift. That is a condition, is it not?

Also, I, as a Gentile, never was "under the Law' in the first place. So then by what standard is a gentile unbeliever judged? Tell me. By what standard does God judge a gentile unbeliever?

As to Israel, is all that "grafted in" stuff in Galatians is just...what.... vanity? And why are you putting Israel under a different standard than yourself? Are you saying that you have less special revelation than Israel, so you are not held to a higher standard? Explain please.

You still haven't addressed my questions from #69. You just keep randomly adding more content.....we're not going to come to a mutual understanding if you keep avoiding other poster's questions.

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 08:06 PM
Salvation, justification unto eternal life is a gift of God, it is not something we attain by our works in the first place. We have also been sanctified or set apart in that we were identified with Christ by God’s power from on high baptism into Christ at the point of our belief. 


It is entirely a work of God for the believer, not a work of the believer for God. No effort of the flesh could accomplish it, no effort of the saint can add to it. 


This in itself is the motivation for a believer to bring the body into subjection to what God had done freely for the ungodly as we place our faith in what Christ accomplished for our sins. Paul’s desire was about beating the flesh back, not about making the flesh better, it is about holding it down, bringing it into submission. 


One has to do with elevation, the other has to do with submission, Paul was talking about making the flesh subject to him. 


Everywhere Paul went, the people who had known the law did not just reject Paul, they wanted to do away with Paul for preaching that people were not under the law. What does that tell us about those in our day who continue to hang on to the notion that God is continuing to deal with people on the basis of their performance? 


We can see the connection between the religious crowd of Paul’s day and the religious crowd of today. The pride nature is the root cause of that rejection, pride insists upon attributing success to self. 


Human righteousness comes from self-interest-motivation, it is self-glorifying and while it may be of earthly benefit, that will not cut it when it comes to meeting the demands of God’s perfect justice. 


When ungodly people are willing to simply take God at his word, abandoning any notion that they can merit a righteous standing with God through their performance, and trust solely in what Jesus Christ accomplished for them, having resolved that issue of their sin debt, God’s power from on high performs a miracle in those people’s lives by uniting those believers with Christ himself. 


That is what sanctification, our set-apartness is all about. As we travel through Paul’s handbook on faith, we learn the necessity of a total abandonment of any notion that no one can merit righteousness before God through the performance of the flesh, and that we must place our trust solely in the fact that God accomplished our salvation for us through his son’s death when he judged his son for our sins. 


Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down. 


Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions. 


Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 


People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 


God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us. 


God was satisfying his own justice where the sins of the world are concerned through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but God recognizes those who take him at his word concerning the price Christ became on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. 


Taking God at his word is called faith, God’s intent was to join believers to his son, from God’s perspective the two become one flesh. Justification is a recognition of righteousness that comes from God to those who believe God and the moment we believe, God’s power from on high joins us to Christ and from that point on we have a brand new identification. 


Does God’s call go out selectively or does he call all today, and does his call come by way of circumstance or does he call today to believe the message given through the apostle Paul. 


Jesus Christ was made a curse for our sins by taking our place and suffering the judgment of God for the sin debts he died for, was his death not pictured in the scapegoat sacrifice of the Israelite program? 


If a person believes Christ died for their sin debt, but does not believe that God’s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sin debt according to the scriptures. 


To continue to insist that God’s justice has not been resolved where all the sins Christ died for are concerned, is to deny the truth sitting in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.

Slug1
Apr 4th 2016, 08:12 PM
Salvation, justification unto eternal life is a gift of God, it is not something we attain by our works in the first place. We have also been sanctified or set apart in that we were identified with Christ by God’s power from on high baptism into Christ at the point of our belief. 


It is entirely a work of God for the believer, not a work of the believer for God. No effort of the flesh could accomplish it, no effort of the saint can add to it. 


This in itself is the motivation for a believer to bring the body into subjection to what God had done freely for the ungodly as we place our faith in what Christ accomplished for our sins. Paul’s desire was about beating the flesh back, not about making the flesh better, it is about holding it down, bringing it into submission. 


One has to do with elevation, the other has to do with submission, Paul was talking about making the flesh subject to him. 


Everywhere Paul went, the people who had known the law did not just reject Paul, they wanted to do away with Paul for preaching that people were not under the law. What does that tell us about those in our day who continue to hang on to the notion that God is continuing to deal with people on the basis of their performance? 


We can see the connection between the religious crowd of Paul’s day and the religious crowd of today. The pride nature is the root cause of that rejection, pride insists upon attributing success to self. 


Human righteousness comes from self-interest-motivation, it is self-glorifying and while it may be of earthly benefit, that will not cut it when it comes to meeting the demands of God’s perfect justice. 


When ungodly people are willing to simply take God at his word, abandoning any notion that they can merit a righteous standing with God through their performance, and trust solely in what Jesus Christ accomplished for them, having resolved that issue of their sin debt, God’s power from on high performs a miracle in those people’s lives by uniting those believers with Christ himself. 


That is what sanctification, our set-apartness is all about. As we travel through Paul’s handbook on faith, we learn the necessity of a total abandonment of any notion that no one can merit righteousness before God through the performance of the flesh, and that we must place our trust solely in the fact that God accomplished our salvation for us through his son’s death when he judged his son for our sins. 


Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down. 


Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions. 


Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 


People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 


God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us. 


God was satisfying his own justice where the sins of the world are concerned through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but God recognizes those who take him at his word concerning the price Christ became on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. 


Taking God at his word is called faith, God’s intent was to join believers to his son, from God’s perspective the two become one flesh. Justification is a recognition of righteousness that comes from God to those who believe God and the moment we believe, God’s power from on high joins us to Christ and from that point on we have a brand new identification. 


Does God’s call go out selectively or does he call all today, and does his call come by way of circumstance or does he call today to believe the message given through the apostle Paul. 


Jesus Christ was made a curse for our sins by taking our place and suffering the judgment of God for the sin debts he died for, was his death not pictured in the scapegoat sacrifice of the Israelite program? 


If a person believes Christ died for their sin debt, but does not believe that God’s justice was satisfied when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sin debt according to the scriptures. 


To continue to insist that God’s justice has not been resolved where all the sins Christ died for are concerned, is to deny the truth sitting in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.Where does repentance fit into your teachings?

Why does grace begin after Paul began teaching and not when Christ was sacrificed?

Are you gonna have a discussion by conversing with members by addressing their questions and discussion points, or are you gonna just continue to flood the board with rhetoric of what you believe?


One has to do with elevation, the other has to do with submission, Paul was talking about making the flesh subject to him. 
Can you break this down more and clearly define "him", the underlined him. "Who" is the "him" you are talking about in that word?

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 08:31 PM
Where does repentance fit into your teachings?

Why does grace begin after Paul began teaching and not when Christ was sacrificed?

Are you gonna have a discussion by conversing with members by addressing their questions and discussion points, or are you gonna just continue to flood the board with rhetoric of what you believe?

Can you break this down more and clearly define "him", the underlined him. "Who" is the "him" you are talking about in that word?

'Him' is Paul. I answer questions, but did Jesus answer all the questions asked of him. I'm starting to see what you believe in.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 10:20 PM
Salvation, justification unto eternal life is a gift of God, it is not something we attain by our works in the first place. We have also been sanctified or set apart in that we were identified with Christ by God’s power from on high baptism into Christ at the point of our belief.

I think you are preaching to the choir here. No one believes their works will 'save' them, any more than they believe Jesus' works will 'save' them.


This in itself is the motivation for a believer to bring the body into subjection to what God had done freely for the ungodly as we place our faith in what Christ accomplished for our sins. Paul’s desire was about beating the flesh back, not about making the flesh better, it is about holding it down, bringing it into submission.

You need to call it what God calls it: OBEDIENCE.



One has to do with elevation, the other has to do with submission, Paul was talking about making the flesh subject to him.

Elevation? What is elevation> 



Everywhere Paul went, the people who had known the law did not just reject Paul, they wanted to do away with Paul for preaching that people were not under the law. What does that tell us about those in our day who continue to hang on to the notion that God is continuing to deal with people on the basis of their performance?

Provide Scripture for this teaching please and we'll discuss it.



We can see the connection between the religious crowd of Paul’s day and the religious crowd of today. The pride nature is the root cause of that rejection, pride insists upon attributing success to self.

Rejection of what? 



Human righteousness comes from self-interest-motivation, it is self-glorifying and while it may be of earthly benefit, that will not cut it when it comes to meeting the demands of God’s perfect justice.

I think you made this point already?



When ungodly people are willing to simply take God at his word, abandoning any notion that they can merit a righteous standing with God through their performance, and trust solely in what Jesus Christ accomplished for them, having resolved that issue of their sin debt, God’s power from on high performs a miracle in those people’s lives by uniting those believers with Christ himself.

I have never met anyone who claims their "performance" will get them into the Kingdom of Heaven. Where do you hear this notion? I know it's a popular teaching, but honestly I have not heard this performance based doctrine taught anywhere.



That is what sanctification, our set-apartness is all about. As we travel through Paul’s handbook on faith, we learn the necessity of a total abandonment of any notion that no one can merit righteousness before God through the performance of the flesh, and that we must place our trust solely in the fact that God accomplished our salvation for us through his son’s death when he judged his son for our sins.

Again, you are repeating yourself.



Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down.

It's really not that much of a struggle if we do the other thing Paul said to do - renew our minds.



Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions.

So was Job. Nothing new here.



Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 

People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 

God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us. 

God was satisfying his own justice where the sins of the world are concerned through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but God recognizes those who take him at his word concerning the price Christ became on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins.

Ok, my discernment meter is getting some red flags here. I went to a church for a while, it was called "Berean Bible Church" and they only taught Paul, saying the other writings don't apply to gentiles. Are you of that sect?

Where is repentance in your sermon?

Have you considered answering any of my questions?

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 10:24 PM
'Him' is Paul. I answer questions, but did Jesus answer all the questions asked of him. I'm starting to see what you believe in.

You are not Jesus brother.

newnature
Apr 4th 2016, 10:55 PM
Romans 6:23 - They will continually want us to do this and stop doing that, in order to keep God happy with us when the reality is: God couldn’t be any happier with us than he is; Christ having taken our sin debt upon himself, and we having trusted what happened where our sins are concerned. 


We can now serve God out of appreciation rather than apprehension. Sin is gone as far as the judicial aspect of sin from God’s vantage point. It is taken care of once and for all! People will suffer the second death not because of the sins God’s son pain for. They have kept sin on the table of God’s justice their entire lifetimes and sat under ministers of righteousness who have led the way. 


We need to be less interested in trying to become something, or trying to do something, and we need to become a whole lot more interested in learning about who we already are, that is the key. Paul could not escape his sinful nature no matter how fervently he tried. Our fleshly bodies will never be worthy of heaven in that they will never be able to perform to the measure of the righteousness that is true of God. 


We are alive because of our identity in Christ, not at all because of our practice. As we understand what God accomplished for us through his son, we build upon that foundation the truths of who he has made us to be when he placed us into his son, we begin to view ourselves as God views us, and there is great security to be found in doing so.

keck553
Apr 4th 2016, 11:40 PM
I have never served God out of apprehension.

Can you pleae answer our questions?

Slug1
Apr 4th 2016, 11:57 PM
'Him' is Paul. I answer questions, but did Jesus answer all the questions asked of him. I'm starting to see what you believe in.

So clarify... "the flesh" then, his own flesh or those who he is teaching.

Noeb
Apr 5th 2016, 12:53 AM
Not getting what?

I don't know... what do you mean?That repentance is a change of mind and in your example there was no change of mind.



Interject what?

The verse is from 1 John 1.Where is repentance in 1John 1?

Slug1
Apr 5th 2016, 01:52 AM
That repentance is a change of mind and in your example there was no change of mind.


Where is repentance in 1John 1?If one is to actually confess to God, does this not mean they are repentant?

A person who is not repentant, is not gonna confess the sin either.

Confession is a product of repentance.

keck553
Apr 5th 2016, 03:41 AM
If one is to actually confess to God, does this not mean they are repentant?

A person who is not repentant, is not gonna confess the sin either.

Confession is a product of repentance.

Indeed it is. How can someone confess unless they realize they're in error? They make the correction and confess.

Slug1
Apr 5th 2016, 04:12 AM
Indeed it is. How can someone confess unless they realize they're in error? They make the correction and confess.We can say that confession is a fruit of repentance.

Noeb
Apr 6th 2016, 01:44 AM
If one is to actually confess to God, does this not mean they are repentant?

A person who is not repentant, is not gonna confess the sin either.

Confession is a product of repentance.No. Did the Romans 7 man need to repent? No. If a Christian struggles with a sin, that they know is a sin, do they need to repent? No. What are they changing their mind about Slug1? Nothing. People agree with God all the time without repentance. Your problem is you don't know what repentance means. You are applying mans churchy sunday school definition. The fact that you can't produce any scripture of a believer walking in the light and in relationship and fellowship with God, repenting of a sin should concern you can give you pause to dig into the word and find out what the word really means. Sinning then realizing after the fact it was a sin is the exception not the norm. Just doesn't happen often. We have the Spirit. We know what sin is, even before we do it. Christians do sins they know are sin, far more than committing a sin and going ....ooops, didn't know that was a sin.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 01:56 AM
No. Did the Romans 7 man need to repent? No. If a Christian struggles with a sin, that they know is a sin, do they need to repent? No. What are they changing their mind about Slug1? Nothing. People agree with God all the time without repentance. Your problem is you don't know what repentance means. You are applying mans churchy sunday school definition. The fact that you can't produce any scripture of a believer walking in the light and in relationship and fellowship with God, repenting of a sin should concern you can give you pause to dig into the word and find out what the word really means. Sinning then realizing after the fact it was a sin is the exception not the norm. Just doesn't happen often. We have the Spirit. We know what sin is, even before we do it. Christians do sins they know are sin, far more than committing a sin and going ....ooops, didn't know that was a sin.People agree with God all the time without repentance? All that means is they aren't confessing the sin because without repentance, means one is accepting the sin and any confession is nothing more than going though the motions... THUS WHY, they continue to struggle with the sin.

Noeb
Apr 6th 2016, 10:41 AM
Looks like you need a reread of Romans 7, and an understanding of terms. The Romans 7 man didn't accept the sin, didn't need to change his mind about sin, and agreed with God concerning sin. Confess means agree. Repent means change of mind.

Did the Romans 7 man need to repent? No. If a Christian struggles with a sin, that they know is a sin, do they need to repent? No. What are they changing their mind about Slug1? They aren't struggling because they need to change their minds about sin.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 11:41 AM
Looks like you need a reread of Romans 7, and an understanding of terms. The Romans 7 man didn't accept the sin, didn't need to change his mind about sin, and agreed with God concerning sin. Confess means agree. Repent means change of mind.

Did the Romans 7 man need to repent? No. If a Christian struggles with a sin, that they know is a sin, do they need to repent? No. What are they changing their mind about Slug1? They aren't struggling because they need to change their minds about sin.

I have a lot to ask concerning your reply here but I will simply focus on paragraph 2 where you stated, "They aren't struggling because they need to change their minds about sin." So, question... if a person is sinning and you are saying they don't need to change their minds about the sin (repent), then why are they continuing to struggle?

Noeb
Apr 6th 2016, 12:35 PM
Many sins can't be overcome in the flesh with law. Faith in him, his cross/resurrection is needed for those. Read the end of Romans 7 and beginning of 8.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 12:50 PM
Many sins can't be overcome in the flesh with law. Faith in him, his cross/resurrection is needed for those. Read the end of Romans 7 and beginning of 8.Understood. Not raising the Law, you are... I'm focusing on forgiveness. Something you say doesn't involve repentance when done.

So, just to clarify, confession of sin is not a result or product of repenting of the sin first?

Noeb
Apr 6th 2016, 12:58 PM
Like I said, it can be but it's not the norm.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 12:58 PM
Like I said, it can be but it's not the norm.
This is why I raise this because you raise an excellent point in turning it over to "the Cross" and putting faith in Christ. If a person says, "God, this sin of looking at pornography on the internet, I am guilty." Is God gonna help the person overcome this sin if they haven't repented of it and only acknowledge it?

As a matter of fact, I will say that to confess without repentance is nothing more than acknowledging the sin and having no desire to change (repent).

Thus why such a Christian continues to struggle after such a confession of the sin to God.

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 02:29 PM
Paul wants the human race to know at one point in time something was true, but now something else is true. God alone decided to make peace with the human race, while the human race is an active enemy to God. Certainly the bible shows that God does not like the actions of the human race, but God reconciled himself to his enemies while they are still in hostility. 


These are important words; God’s reconciliation to the human race took place when the human race was actively his enemy, not after the human race repented. The entire human race is guilty when it comes to human merit, performance, and production, and continually coming short of the righteousness of God himself. God cannot relate to you, he will not relate to you according to your former identity in Adam, that Identity disappeared the instant you took God at his word concerning Paul’s good news message.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 03:02 PM
Paul wants the human race to know at one point in time something was true, but now something else is true. God alone decided to make peace with the human race, while the human race is an active enemy to God. Certainly the bible shows that God does not like the actions of the human race, but God reconciled himself to his enemies while they are still in hostility. 


These are important words; God’s reconciliation to the human race took place when the human race was actively his enemy, not after the human race repented. The entire human race is guilty when it comes to human merit, performance, and production, and continually coming short of the righteousness of God himself. God cannot relate to you, he will not relate to you according to your former identity in Adam, that Identity disappeared the instant you took God at his word concerning Paul’s good news message.God's reconciliation began before creation came into existence. He did this through His Son, who was sacrificed before creation.

Reconciliation is through Christ... NOT Paul's message.

Are you saying that because of Paul's teaching, God's reconciliation/redemption began?

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 03:07 PM
Like I said, it can be but it's not the norm.

Who was James speaking to in 5:16?

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 03:08 PM
Paul wants the human race to know at one point in time something was true, but now something else is true. God alone decided to make peace with the human race, while the human race is an active enemy to God. Certainly the bible shows that God does not like the actions of the human race, but God reconciled himself to his enemies while they are still in hostility. 


These are important words; God’s reconciliation to the human race took place when the human race was actively his enemy, not after the human race repented. The entire human race is guilty when it comes to human merit, performance, and production, and continually coming short of the righteousness of God himself. God cannot relate to you, he will not relate to you according to your former identity in Adam, that Identity disappeared the instant you took God at his word concerning Paul’s good news message.

In order for any conversation with you to be fruitful, I need to ask you a question. Do you agree ALL of the Apostolic Writings apply to you as a Christian or just Paul's writings?

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 03:18 PM
In order for any conversation with you to be fruitful, I need to ask you a question. Do you agree ALL of the Apostolic Writings apply to you as a Christian or just Paul's writings?

Only ministers of righteousness want to keep the issue of sins on the table of God's justice. All of that confession and repent, all of what you are saying is done by ministers of righteousness. Like it or not, this is the age of grace. Conversation, you are just twisting the two programs together?

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 03:29 PM
Only ministers of righteousness want to keep the issue of sins on the table of God's justice. All of that confession and repent, all of what you are saying is done by ministers of righteousness. Like it or not, this is the age of grace. Conversation, you are just twisting the two programs together?


Will you please answer my question with a simple "yes" or "no?"

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 03:55 PM
Will you please answer my question with a simple "yes" or "no?"

You ask loaded questions, people go to schools to learn how to ask the questions you are asking. This is fact, only ministers of righteousness teach people how to keep the issue of sin on the table of God's justice.

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 04:00 PM
God's reconciliation began before creation came into existence. He did this through His Son, who was sacrificed before creation.

Reconciliation is through Christ... NOT Paul's message.

Are you saying that because of Paul's teaching, God's reconciliation/redemption began?


Not according to Genesis. Genesis 1:1 shouldn’t have happened. The bible assumes that the great usurper exits and never questions that assumption. The earth flooded out proves the great usurper is not an unfounded assumption. The beginning of the universe is in Genesis 1:1. Darkness was upon the earth, it appears the earth is in some kind of black structure. The great usurper and those who helped him out are swimming around on the earth. Now the earth, the opposite of the created order is ‘nothing,’ (water). But to the ancients, the opposite of the created order was something much worse than ‘nothing’ (chaos). 


God just sat for awhile looking at this new black structure from his throne room, letting the great usurper sweet it out. As the great usurper sat in this black structure board out of his mind, all of a sudden a wind (invisible force) from God swept over the water. Now God is a spirit being, meaning his body is composed of a substance called spirit. God also has a unique kind of life within that body composed of that substance called spirit, but the life God has within himself produces some kind of light (His glory). It was this glory that used to be the light source to the earth, but God can’t control it, his glory just shines right through his body of spirit. As God sat in his throne room, out of nowhere he said, “Let there be light.”

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 04:16 PM
You ask loaded questions, people go to schools to learn how to ask the questions you are asking. This is fact, only ministers of righteousness teach people how to keep the issue of sin on the table of God's justice.

You need to answer the question.

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 04:17 PM
Not according to Genesis. Genesis 1:1 shouldn’t have happened. The bible assumes that the great usurper exits and never questions that assumption. The earth flooded out proves the great usurper is not an unfounded assumption. The beginning of the universe is in Genesis 1:1. Darkness was upon the earth, it appears the earth is in some kind of black structure. The great usurper and those who helped him out are swimming around on the earth. Now the earth, the opposite of the created order is ‘nothing,’ (water). But to the ancients, the opposite of the created order was something much worse than ‘nothing’ (chaos). 


God just sat for awhile looking at this new black structure from his throne room, letting the great usurper sweet it out. As the great usurper sat in this black structure board out of his mind, all of a sudden a wind (invisible force) from God swept over the water. Now God is a spirit being, meaning his body is composed of a substance called spirit. God also has a unique kind of life within that body composed of that substance called spirit, but the life God has within himself produces some kind of light (His glory). It was this glory that used to be the light source to the earth, but God can’t control it, his glory just shines right through his body of spirit. As God sat in his throne room, out of nowhere he said, “Let there be light.”

This sounds like Greek philosophy to me.

Can you weave any Scripture together to support this?

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 04:27 PM
This sounds like Greek philosophy to me.

Can you weave any Scripture together to support this?

What part of Genesis 1:1 is confusing you? Shall we do word studies or work figures of speech. I see how you are confused about the kingdom program and age of grace program.

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 04:56 PM
Consider this. Before there was a heaven. At one point in time in El’s life, he chose to create some kind of structure, separating him from whatever was outside of that structure. But El was not alone, because El rode around on a kind of throne chariot. El’s enthroned above four magnificent creatures. Each of these has a human body and then four faces: the face of a human, the face of a lion, the face of an ox, and the face of an eagle. These 4 magnificent creatures have the same kind of life that El has within himself, but what these magnificent creatures bodies are made of, is unclear. Not only were these 4 magnificent creatures with El, but there were 24 other individuals with El. These 24 individuals are named Elders, and they also have the same kind of life that El has within himself, but these Elders have that life in some kind of flesh and bone body, but El’s body is different then these 24 Elders and these 4 magnificent creatures. 


We know that El did indeed create some kind of structure around him, because he went to the north side of that structure, and laid the north side over the empty place that is outside of that structure. It is in the north of the north of that new addition to that structure, that El established a different throne to sit on, because his throne (the Ark) is in the tent that El pitched in the north of the north also. Now the reason El created this structure, it was for the beings he was about to create within it. Now El is going to create the earth in the middle of this structure, but El from his throne in the north of the north, he is going to be the light source of the earth. But how can El visit the earth and have a relationship with the beings living on that earth and still maintain the light source of the earth?

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:03 PM
What part of Genesis 1:1 is confusing you? Shall we do word studies or work figures of speech. I see how you are confused about the kingdom program and age of grace program.

None of Geneses 1 confuses me.

And I also reject your accusation that I am confused by the Gospel.

Now, please answer this question. Do you accept the writings of James, John, Peter and Jude as having authority in doctrine and practice in your life? Yes or no?

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 05:11 PM
Not according to Genesis. Genesis 1:1 shouldn’t have happened. The bible assumes that the great usurper exits and never questions that assumption. The earth flooded out proves the great usurper is not an unfounded assumption. The beginning of the universe is in Genesis 1:1. Darkness was upon the earth, it appears the earth is in some kind of black structure. The great usurper and those who helped him out are swimming around on the earth. Now the earth, the opposite of the created order is ‘nothing,’ (water). But to the ancients, the opposite of the created order was something much worse than ‘nothing’ (chaos). 


God just sat for awhile looking at this new black structure from his throne room, letting the great usurper sweet it out. As the great usurper sat in this black structure board out of his mind, all of a sudden a wind (invisible force) from God swept over the water. Now God is a spirit being, meaning his body is composed of a substance called spirit. God also has a unique kind of life within that body composed of that substance called spirit, but the life God has within himself produces some kind of light (His glory). It was this glory that used to be the light source to the earth, but God can’t control it, his glory just shines right through his body of spirit. As God sat in his throne room, out of nowhere he said, “Let there be light.”Genesis enables us to understand how grace was in effect after creation and before the fall. Now, reconciliation is a product of grace, so my question is in relation to redemption/reconciliation.

You stated that God's reconciliation with mankind begins with Paul's teaching... is this what you are saying?

Do you attend a church and are you under a pastor's authority?

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:16 PM
Consider this. Before there was a heaven. At one point in time in El’s life, he chose to create some kind of structure, separating him from whatever was outside of that structure.

God's life? This assumes a finite God, and something that existed outside of His creative works. I reject that. The Bible rejects that also. That is why I said it sounds like Greek philosophy.



But El was not alone, because El rode around on a kind
of throne chariot. El’s enthroned above four magnificent creatures. Each of these has a human body and then four faces: the face of a human, the face of a lion, the face of an ox, and the face of an eagle. These 4 magnificent creatures have the same kind of life that El has within himself, but what these magnificent creatures bodies are made of, is unclear. Not only were these 4 magnificent creatures with El, but there were 24 other individuals with El. These 24 individuals are named Elders, and they also have the same kind of life that El has within himself, but these Elders have that life in some kind of flesh and bone body, but El’s body is different then these 24 Elders and these 4 magnificent creatures.

These are all created beings. So what? We don't know when God created these beings.



We know that El did indeed create some kind of structure around him, because he went to the north side of that structure, and laid the north side over the empty place that is outside of that structure. It is in the north of the north of that new addition to that structure, that El established a different throne to sit on, because his throne (the Ark) is in the tent that El pitched in the north of the north also. Now the reason El created this structure, it was for the beings he was about to create within it. Now El is going to create the earth in the middle of this structure, but El from his throne in the north of the north, he is going to be the light source of the earth. But how can El visit the earth and have a relationship with the beings living on that earth and still maintain the light source of the earth?

Scripture references please.

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:17 PM
Genesis enables us to understand how grace was in effect after creation and before the fall. Now, reconciliation is a product of grace, so my question is in relation to redemption/reconciliation.

You stated that God's reconciliation with mankind begins with Paul's teaching... is this what you are saying?

Do you attend a church and are you under a pastor's authority?

You bet it began with Paul. Show me your reconciliation in Genesis, Genesis should have happened?

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:18 PM
Genesis enables us to understand how grace was in effect after creation and before the fall. Now, reconciliation is a product of grace, so my question is in relation to redemption/reconciliation.

You stated that God's reconciliation with mankind begins with Paul's teaching... is this what you are saying?

Do you attend a church and are you under a pastor's authority?

Amen brother. Genesis 1 is a beautiful testimony to grace and points right to Jesus as the Architect . Amen.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 05:19 PM
You bet it began with Paul. Show me your reconciliation in Genesis, Genesis should have happened?Just to make sure you are saying what you are saying.

Reconciliation with God begins with Paul, not with Jesus' sacrifice before the foundations of the world came into existence?

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:22 PM
God's life? This assumes a finite God, and something that existed outside of His creative works. I reject that. The Bible rejects that also. That is why I said it sounds like Greek philosophy.



These are all created beings. So what? We don't know when God created these beings.



Scripture references please.


Get a concordance (Strongs is what I use) and look up the words in Genesis 1:1. Words like 'without form and void'? You do know about the 5 I will's of the great usurper, look up the word 'north'.

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:23 PM
Just to make sure you are saying what you are saying.

Reconciliation with God begins with Paul, not with Jesus' sacrifice before the foundations of the world came into existence?


We are in the world before it came into existence. Show me your reconciliation?

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:25 PM
Amen brother. Genesis 1 is a beautiful testimony to grace and points right to Jesus as the Architect . Amen.


No side stepping Genesis 1:1, Jesus was not there.

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:26 PM
Get a concordance (Strongs is what I use) and look up the words in Genesis 1:1. Words like 'without form and void'? You do know about the 5 I will's of the great usurper, look up the word 'north'.

I have a concordance, I have a Chamash, and I have an interlinear Septuagint. You need to stop assuming I don't study Scripture. I am asking you to reference your Biblical sources, JUST as Paul did for the Bereans. Do it.


No side stepping Genesis 1:1, Jesus was not there.

You might want to re-read John 1


You bet it began with Paul. Show me your reconciliation in Genesis, Genesis should have happened?

Well I guess Cornelius wasn't reconciled then.

Wow. Just wow.

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:28 PM
We are in the world before it came into existence.

No. We are in God's plan before creation.

We are not Mormons here.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 05:29 PM
We are in the world before it came into existence. Show me your reconciliation?My question was clear for confirmation of your meaning in answering that reconciliation for the world does not begin until after Paul begins teaching... so please answer the question for that clarity.

Does reconciliation with God begins with Paul, not with Jesus' sacrifice before the foundations of the world came into existence?

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:31 PM
I understand all that, but what you are doing is adding to Scripture.



You might want to re-read John 1

It is called word studies. A person should work the words of God's word. So religion thinks it can change a meaning of a word and get away with it? Then Satan took him to a mountain that was very high, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; and said to him, “All these will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Yeshua said to him, “Begone, Satan; for it is written, revere only Yahweh, and worship him alone, to him shall you hold fast, and swear only by his name. 


Then Satan left Yeshua; and lo, angels came, and ministered to him. Wisdom was in the beginning, and that very wisdom was with God, and God was that wisdom. Wisdom was in the beginning with God. Everything came to be by God’s hand; and without God, not even one thing that was created came to be. The life is in God, that life is the light of men.


Wisdom was indeed in the beginning with God, Proverbs 8:22-26. Wisdom recounts her creation and her presence during the creation of the world. She was the very first of God’s creations. ‘Created me’ wisdom existed from eternity and was coeval with God. Some Christian groups identified wisdom with the Logos, which was in turn identified with The Christ. It is, however clear from v.23 that wisdom is a created being. Wisdom declares that she was present when God produced the inhabited world.


My question was clear for confirmation of your meaning in answering that reconciliation for the world does not begin until after Paul begins teaching... so please answer the question for that clarity.

Does reconciliation with God begins with Paul, not with Jesus' sacrifice before the foundations of the world came into existence?

Show me your reconciliation in Genesis 1:1?

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 05:37 PM
Show me your reconciliation in Genesis 1:1?
Once I understand what you are attempting to teach... we can push forward.

Will you confirm that God's reconciliation for the world begins with Paul's ministry and not through Jesus?

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:37 PM
It is called word studies. A person should work the words of God's word. So religion thinks it can change a meaning of a word and get away with it? Then Satan took him to a mountain that was very high, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; and said to him, “All these will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Yeshua said to him, “Begone, Satan; for it is written, revere only Yahweh, and worship him alone, to him shall you hold fast, and swear only by his name.

You need to stop assuming I don't study Scripture, or use resources. I asked you to tie in your doctrine with Scripture, just as Paul did for the Bereans, in fact, just like Jesus and ALL the Apostles did with their teachings.

You need to reference your sources so we can test it, just as the Bereans tested Paul.



Then Satan left Yeshua; and lo, angels came, and ministered to him. Wisdom was in the beginning, and that very wisdom was with God, and God was that wisdom. Wisdom was in the beginning with God.

Everything came to be by God’s hand; and without God, not even one thing that was created came to be. The life is in God, that life is the light of men.

John 1 says EVERYTHING was created through Yeshua. Do you believe Yeshua is fully God and fully human?

We need to have some reference point here.



Wisdom was indeed in the beginning with God, Proverbs 8:22-26. Wisdom recounts her creation and her presence during the creation of the world. She was the very first of God’s creations. ‘Created me’ wisdom existed from eternity and was coeval with God. Some Christian groups identified wisdom with the Logos, which was in turn identified with The Christ. It is, however clear from v.23 that wisdom is a created being. Wisdom declares that she was present when God produced the inhabited world.

No. Hebrew is an inflective language. Wisdom is a feminine word, so it is referred to as "she." Wisdom is NOT a created being, wisdom is an attribute of God.

Are you a "Paul only" advocate? Do the writings of the other Apostles have any authority over you? yes or no?

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:40 PM
Once I understand what you are attempting to teach... we can push forward.

Will you confirm that God's reconciliation for the world begins with Paul's ministry and not through Jesus?

Do you even read what I say? We are in Genesis 1:1, show me your reconciliation?

Slug1
Apr 6th 2016, 05:40 PM
Do you even read what I say? We are in Genesis 1:1, show me your reconciliation?Will you confirm that God's reconciliation for the world begins with Paul's ministry and not through Jesus?

This is the final offer to answer this directly so I can understand your position and teaching.

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:44 PM
You need to stop assuming I don't study Scripture, or use resources. I asked you to tie in your doctrine with Scripture, just as Paul did for the Bereans, in fact, just like Jesus and ALL the Apostles did with their teachings.

You need to reference your sources so we can test it, just as the Bereans tested Paul.




John 1 says EVERYTHING was created through Yeshua. Do you believe Yeshua is fully God and fully human?

We need to have some reference point here.



No. Hebrew is an inflective language. Wisdom is a feminine word, so it is referred to as "she."

Are you a "Paul only" advocate? Do the writings of the other Apostles have any authority over you? yes or no?

John 1:1 is an overview of what Yahweh accomplished. The second Adam did not fall for any of Satan's temptations. What wisdom Yahweh truly does have, Genesis 3:15.

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:46 PM
Do you even read what I say? We are in Genesis 1:1, show me your reconciliation?

Would you agree that "apprehension of God" (you've used that phrase) has its roots in Kabbalah?

newnature
Apr 6th 2016, 05:47 PM
Will you confirm that God's reconciliation for the world begins with Paul's ministry and not through Jesus?

This is the final offer to answer this directly so I can understand your position and teaching.


How many time have I answered your questions. Show me your reconciliation in Genesis 1:1. Last warning?


Would you agree that "apprehension of God" (you've used that phrase) has its roots in Kabbalah?


Don't teach any of that kabbalah junk.

keck553
Apr 6th 2016, 05:57 PM
Don't teach any of that kabbalah junk.

See, this is why you need to answer our questions. Please do so now.

Old man
Apr 6th 2016, 05:58 PM
*** MOD NOTE ***

newnature, your PM is turned off so I will leave this message here.

Please start a thread in C2M addressed to Slug1.

Here is a link to that location:

http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php/84-Chat-to-the-moderators

RogerW
Apr 6th 2016, 06:47 PM
So despite Adam and Eve’s newfound mortality, humans are going to be a force to be reckoned with. They’re unpredictable to the very Yahweh who created them. Yahweh has to modify his plan, by barring access to the tree of life; that was not something presumably Yahweh planned to do. Adam and Eve had access to this tree up to that point, as long as their will conformed to the will of Yahweh, there was no danger to their going on eternally, being immortal. Once they discovered their moral freedom, once they discovered that they could thwart Yahweh and work evil in the world, and abuse and corrupt all that Yahweh had created, then Yahweh could not afford to allow them access to the tree of life.

That which I've highlighted above is not true. God did not have a plan A and then resort to plan B because He had not predicted that mankind would disobey Him and bring both sin and death into His creation. Otherwise it makes no sense that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Christ is, according to the eternal covenant established in heaven before creation, the remedy for the problem of sin and death that mankind would unleash upon creation through their free choice to disobey God. God knew that mankind would disobey. Because God had created them will total autonomy. And knowing that no living creature with total autonomy will submit to another when given a choice, God knew from eternity that mankind would disobey and bring death to His creation.

And all of this is according to the plan and purpose of the Almighty to have a people for Himself through the sacrificial offering of His only begotten Son. If mankind were allowed to make themselves immortal by eating of the tree of life, then it would not be long before mankind would have no need for the God Who created them. NO! Man had to shown that total autonomy is an enemy for mankind. And they learn this when their total autonomy is taken away from them after the fall. Now mankind is not free to choose to submit to God for life apart from grace. Now mankind can only eat of the tree of life and live forever when they eat of Christ, Who is the resurrection and the life. And until God by grace through faith gives ears to hear the message of Christ [Gospel] through the power of the Spirit, then no man can turn to Christ for salvation.

This is God's plan from the beginning! No plan A and then plan B. All along it was God divine plan to have a people for Himself, who would come to Him for life through His Son.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 6th 2016, 07:17 PM
We need to be less interested in trying to become something, or trying to do something, and we need to become a whole lot more interested in learning about who we already are, that is the key. Paul could not escape his sinful nature no matter how fervently he tried. Our fleshly bodies will never be worthy of heaven in that they will never be able to perform to the measure of the righteousness that is true of God.

We are alive because of our identity in Christ, not at all because of our practice. As we understand what God accomplished for us through his son, we build upon that foundation the truths of who he has made us to be when he placed us into his son, we begin to view ourselves as God views us, and there is great security to be found in doing so.

I fully agree! Articulated very well.

Many Blessings,
RW

Noeb
Apr 8th 2016, 01:22 AM
Understood. Not raising the LawYou are indirectly. We either overcome by law/flesh (and that is a good thing) or grace/Spirit. I'll explain more when I respond to your next post.

Noeb
Apr 8th 2016, 01:59 AM
This is why I raise this because you raise an excellent point in turning it over to "the Cross" and putting faith in Christ. If a person says, "God, this sin of looking at pornography on the internet, I am guilty." Is God gonna help the person overcome this sin if they haven't repented of it and only acknowledge it?Now you're not making sense.
1) I'm talking about an individual that agrees it's sin, doesn't want to do the sin, tries their best not to do the sin.
2) You're saying if they have not stopped the sin they have not repented of the sin.
Yet, here, you admit they can't on their own (law/flesh) and need God's help (grace/Spirit), then turn around and say they haven't stopped (repented) doing the sin. Well, if they can't stop until God helps them how can they repent (stop doing it) in order for God to then help them stop doing it????? If people have to stop a sin they can't stop on their own in order to have repented so they can then get help from God, they've already stopped and don't need God's help! Do you see the problem with applying your definition across the board? Yes, stopping the sin is an example of repentance in scripture but so is changing your mind.

The Romans 7 believer knows it's sin (law), doesn't want to do it, and does everything they can to resist (has changed their mind -repented), but the law isn't enough in all cases. So if we use your definition of 'repent of the sin' (stop doing the sin), and we know from scripture that there are cases where 'repentance' is not possible without His Cross, we have a believer that has not repented. I disagree. This believer needs the eyes of their understanding enlightened in the knowledge of Him (the Cross- the new man is dead to sin), to know how to overcome the sin by His Power. It's not automatic. If you don't believe you are dead to sin by His Cross (not yours -that's false doctrine) you aren't going to have victory in the hard to overcome area. Also, God doesn't always or usually help those stuck in Romans 7 overcome the sin. Why do you think it's there? To show that there is a way -His cross (grace/Spirit). That there's more available than law/flesh to the believer that, when tempted, believes that old sinning man died with Him.




As a matter of fact, I will say that to confess without repentance is nothing more than acknowledging the sin and having no desire to change (repent).

Thus why such a Christian continues to struggle after such a confession of the sin to God.Now rethink this. No one can say the Romans 7 believer merely acknowledges the sin and has no desire to change. We can drop that notion. So I ask you again.....

Did the Romans 7 man need to repent? If a Christian struggles with a sin, that they know is a sin, do they need to repent? What are they changing their mind about Slug1? They aren't struggling because they need to change their minds about sin. It's as clear as day they have the right attitude towards sin and God. But there they are, doing what they don't wanna do and guess what? God is not helping them. What is God looking for? How do they get help (grace/Spirit)?

Now, I'm going to say something and I don't want you to get defensive. I know you counsel. Please consider you don't know everything there is to know about counseling people in sin and someone here might have something to teach you. There's a good chance there are people that have much more experience than you. I don't know if I'm one of them, how could I? I'm just asking that you take pause and really (prayerfully) consider what I'm saying.

Noeb
Apr 8th 2016, 10:59 AM
Who was James speaking to in 5:16?
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Slug1
Apr 8th 2016, 11:59 AM
Now you're not making sense.
1) I'm talking about an individual that agrees it's sin, doesn't want to do the sin, tries their best not to do the sin.
2) You're saying if they have not stopped the sin they have not repented of the sin.
Yet, here, you admit they can't on their own (law/flesh) and need God's help (grace/Spirit), then turn around and say they haven't stopped (repented) doing the sin. Well, if they can't stop until God helps them how can they repent (stop doing it) in order for God to then help them stop doing it????? If people have to stop a sin they can't stop on their own in order to have repented so they can then get help from God, they've already stopped and don't need God's help! Do you see the problem with applying your definition across the board? Yes, stopping the sin is an example of repentance in scripture but so is changing your mind.

The Romans 7 believer knows it's sin (law), doesn't want to do it, and does everything they can to resist (has changed their mind -repented), but the law isn't enough in all cases. So if we use your definition of 'repent of the sin' (stop doing the sin), and we know from scripture that there are cases where 'repentance' is not possible without His Cross, we have a believer that has not repented. I disagree. This believer needs the eyes of their understanding enlightened in the knowledge of Him (the Cross- the new man is dead to sin), to know how to overcome the sin by His Power. It's not automatic. If you don't believe you are dead to sin by His Cross (not yours -that's false doctrine) you aren't going to have victory in the hard to overcome area. Also, God doesn't always or usually help those stuck in Romans 7 overcome the sin. Why do you think it's there? To show that there is a way -His cross (grace/Spirit). That there's more available than law/flesh to the believer that, when tempted, believes that old sinning man died with Him.



Now rethink this. No one can say the Romans 7 believer merely acknowledges the sin and has no desire to change. We can drop that notion. So I ask you again.....

Did the Romans 7 man need to repent? If a Christian struggles with a sin, that they know is a sin, do they need to repent? What are they changing their mind about Slug1? They aren't struggling because they need to change their minds about sin. It's as clear as day they have the right attitude towards sin and God. But there they are, doing what they don't wanna do and guess what? God is not helping them. What is God looking for? How do they get help (grace/Spirit)?

Now, I'm going to say something and I don't want you to get defensive. I know you counsel. Please consider you don't know everything there is to know about counseling people in sin and someone here might have something to teach you. There's a good chance there are people that have much more experience than you. I don't know if I'm one of them, how could I? I'm just asking that you take pause and really (prayerfully) consider what I'm saying.Oh, I have over the years been taught through discussion on this board. I said what I did about counseling and how an unrepentant Christian still struggles after agreeing with God that they sin because all who confess without repentance, simply continue to struggle.

I am not talking about what you say here because you just described a person who has not only come into agreement with God that they sin, but ALSO that they are repenting. Only when repentance is active does a person NOT want to do sin and will do all that is necessary to not do the sin:


1) I'm talking about an individual that agrees it's sin, doesn't want to do the sin, tries their best not to do the sin.

When a person who admits/confesses they are sinning to God (I've listened to people literally pray confession), comes into agreement but does not want to stop, all they are doing is acknowledging sin. Believe me, in counseling this is encountered allot. After discipling the person for as long as it takes, they "add" repentance and then with confession before God... THEN, they begin to experience this: 1) I'm talking about an individual that agrees it's sin, doesn't want to do the sin, tries their best not to do the sin.

Based on seeing how a person changes after repentance and confession... I firmly believe God knows the heart and doesn't listen to the words that are mouthed when the heart is saying something completely opposite of the confession. But when the heart aligns, when the mind aligns (changes through the discipleship of the Word of God) and the mouth expresses the repentance that is happening in their heart and mind, this adds power to the confession and I've watched people change, heal (literally), step forth in faith, etc.

But any who mouth that they confess but are not repentant... nothing. I can only advise and do all I can to disciple... they have to want to repent and confession of the sin is only acknowledgement of the sin until repentance changes that from acknowledgement to this: 1) I'm talking about an individual that agrees it's sin, doesn't want to do the sin, tries their best not to do the sin.

Noeb
Apr 9th 2016, 03:17 PM
I said what I did about counseling and how an unrepentant Christian still struggles after agreeing with God that they sin because all who confess without repentance, simply continue to struggle.Unrepentant Christian? That's what scripture calls a sinner.



I am not talking about what you say here because you just described a person who has not only come into agreement with God that they sin, but ALSO that they are repenting.Good, so repent doesn't necessarily mean stop doing the sin. That has been my point. What I described is what I have been describing all along. Christians struggle because they haven't grown in the knowledge of the Lord, not because they haven't repented. Not because they merely acknowledge it is sin but wanna keep doing it. A Christian does not wanna keep doing it. That's contrary to the new creature.



When a person who admits/confesses they are sinning to God (I've listened to people literally pray confession), comes into agreement but does not want to stop, all they are doing is acknowledging sin. Believe me, in counseling this is encountered allot.The church is full of sinners.



After discipling the person for as long as it takes, they "add" repentance and then with confession before God... THEN, they begin to experience this......Based on seeing how a person changes after repentance and confession...when the heart is saying something completely opposite of the confession. But when the heart aligns, when the mind aligns (changes through the discipleship of the Word of God) and the mouth expresses the repentance that is happening in their heart and mind, this adds power to the confession and I've watched people change, heal (literally), step forth in faith, etc.This happens in other religions and worldly counseling too.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2016, 05:57 PM
Unrepentant Christian? That's what scripture calls a sinner.Yes, a sinner. And if a Christian can't sin, nor would sin, then Christians would never have to come into agreement with God... right? :)



Good, so repent doesn't necessarily mean stop doing the sin. That has been my point. What I described is what I have been describing all along. Christians struggle because they haven't grown in the knowledge of the Lord, not because they haven't repented. Not because they merely acknowledge it is sin but wanna keep doing it. A Christian does not wanna keep doing it. That's contrary to the new creature.Well, a person who "is" repentant, then they are not struggling with a sin they may have been struggling with. A Christian what is repenting, is most likely in a point of struggling. I agree that discipleship, which produces knowledge, does bring about change... and a struggling Christian who is always repenting, becomes a Christian who is repentant and does not struggle with a sin. Doesn't mean they don't sin, just means they are walking as they should.



The church is full of sinners.Struggling sinners? Or Christians who walk as they should in Christ and do not live a life struggling, maybe encounter struggles but not live in struggle?

Victory can be walked in now, not after glorification.



This happens in other religions and worldly counseling too.Your point?

Geoff Primanti
Apr 14th 2016, 11:42 PM
You are not Jesus brother.

I'm certain that he perceives that Jesus is his example to follow.

Geoff Primanti
Apr 15th 2016, 12:03 AM
It is called word studies. A person should work the words of God's word. So religion thinks it can change a meaning of a word and get away with it? Then Satan took him to a mountain that was very high, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; and said to him, “All these will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Yeshua said to him, “Begone, Satan; for it is written, revere only Yahweh, and worship him alone, to him shall you hold fast, and swear only by his name. 


Then Satan left Yeshua; and lo, angels came, and ministered to him. Wisdom was in the beginning, and that very wisdom was with God, and God was that wisdom. Wisdom was in the beginning with God. Everything came to be by God’s hand; and without God, not even one thing that was created came to be. The life is in God, that life is the light of men.


Wisdom was indeed in the beginning with God, Proverbs 8:22-26. Wisdom recounts her creation and her presence during the creation of the world. She was the very first of God’s creations. ‘Created me’ wisdom existed from eternity and was coeval with God. Some Christian groups identified wisdom with the Logos, which was in turn identified with The Christ. It is, however clear from v.23 that wisdom is a created being. Wisdom declares that she was present when God produced the inhabited world.



Show me your reconciliation in Genesis 1:1?

nn, I am edified by a lot of the things that you have said, my friend. But here you blew it with me.

It is clear from scripture that Jesus is the wisdom of God and that He is from everlasting. 1 Corinthians 1:24 and Proverbs 8:23. Jesus is God from everlasting to everlasting. Psalm 90:2, John 1:1-3. Therefore He is not a created being except in His humanity (as He is 100% Man and 100% God)

keck553
Apr 15th 2016, 03:53 PM
I'm certain that he perceives that Jesus is his example to follow.

So do I. But Christians do not "hide mysteries" from each other and brag about it.

Furthermore, at some point Jesus called His disciples "friends" in the context that He revealed His Fathers will to them -

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

NN's brothers and sisters here are not swine. If I have something to share with my brothers and sisters in Christ, I do my very best to exposit my learning and let the chips fall on the council of many. My brothers and sisters in Christ fellowship with me for edification, not to boast in their "secret" knowledge of God's ways.

Make sense?

Geoff Primanti
Apr 16th 2016, 07:05 PM
So do I. But Christians do not "hide mysteries" from each other and brag about it.

Furthermore, at some point Jesus called His disciples "friends" in the context that He revealed His Fathers will to them -

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

NN's brothers and sisters here are not swine. If I have something to share with my brothers and sisters in Christ, I do my very best to exposit my learning and let the chips fall on the council of many. My brothers and sisters in Christ fellowship with me for edification, not to boast in their "secret" knowledge of God's ways.

Make sense?

Amen.

The primary enemy of the early church, doctrinally was Gnosticism, which pulled in its converts by saying that they held the secret knowledge and/or wisdom of God.

I'm certain that whatever he is hiding as a secret is something that he woul be ashamed to talk about in a public setting, that he is trying to lead people up to his conclusions in a roundabout way. Nevertheless some of what he has said is eactly what I have needed to hear.

But of course, as Hank Hanegraaf used to always say, if I take a glass and put in it 99% water and 1% arsenic, that 1% will kill you if you drink the water. Now the water is what you need but the rest is poison.

btw, Jesus called Judas his friend at the time of betrayal.

biblegirl
Apr 26th 2016, 03:36 PM
By asking for forgiveness we are opening up to God. Allowing Him to bless us with the Grace of God. By calling upon God to forgive us our sins, we are also given the opportunity to talk to God through our prayer for forgiveness.

Stonesoffire
Apr 28th 2016, 11:52 PM
Paul was not talking about Christianizing the flesh, making it better flesh, capable of doing more things, he was talking about holding the flesh back, keeping it down. 


Paul was motivated to keep his desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to keep it at bay and not let that reign supreme when it came to his activities and his actions. 


Paul was being honest with himself and with us, when it came to the capacity of his flesh to merit righteousness before God through performance, if God was going to righteousify ungodly people, it would have to be freely by his grace, it could come no other way. 


People’s performance could not be allowed to enter the picture. God would have to use belief rather than behavior as the criterion whereby to join believers to his son. Could there have been a sin or two, or maybe a few left over when Christ died for the sin debt of the world, for which God’s justice was not satisfied, a sin in the future? 


God’s justice was satisfied where the sins of the world are concerned, God reconciled the world unto himself, as Paul tells us.


I like how you termed our "spinning our wheels" so to speak, as christianizing the flesh. You are oh so correct in your post. When we realize this truth, we have entered the "rest" of the true sabbath.

We are dead. Don't resurrect the flesh, it has lost its hold because we (flesh person) died with Jesus. BUT ! We are now resurrected in His image. SPIRIT !

Reconnected to Father as His child, born of His nature. Can a dead man sin?

How does a Spirit man live?

Stonesoffire
Apr 29th 2016, 12:16 AM
Today people fail to rightly divide the word of truth, because they have mixed God’s program with Israel and his program with the Body of Christ and mixed dispensations together; dispensations that do not mix together, and as a result, they think they have taken on Israel’s role from the point where Israel left off.

The issue is not our sins today, most people think sin is the issue, so they are looking for ways to keep short accounts. The issue is: In order to dwell with God in eternity future; we have to be as righteous as God, his justice will not allow nothing other, and until you believe what happened to the sin debt Christ died for concerning yourself, you are not placed into Christ.


Simon was of the under what you call "the age of grace program".

So why did Peter instruct Simon to repent of the sin he did after becoming a Christian?

Am just getting caught up on things..

The answer is here:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God working within us by revealing what pleases Him and what does not. My paraphrasing the next verse.

This is the reason why we repent. We don't know what all is within our flesh natures habits that pop up in the right situations, under the right pressures of life. We aren't perfected at our new birth...but released from eternal death and its power over us.

Then comes this working out program. ;)

We are lied to constantly through religion...do this, do that. This is not the way to work in the Kingdom Of God. It is believe this and believe that. So a habitual sin pops up in our life, we come under condemnation, and then run and hide.
The experience speaks a lie and we judge ourselves and others through those lies. Even judge God.

We are dead and our life is hid in God through Christ. Believe it. It's so much easier to live in victory this way.

And it's good to be free.

keck553
Apr 29th 2016, 12:20 AM
Well, gee....I guess I'll have to scratch out all those 1050 commandments given in the New Testament then.....

Stonesoffire
Apr 29th 2016, 12:34 AM
Why keck would you do that?

Stonesoffire
Apr 30th 2016, 08:25 PM
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Are these commandments to do? Or is Peter giving a descriptive report of what we already have within when born from above?

What do we believe?

Where are the tablets of the commandments to be found literally today? Are they not in the ark?

Is there a spiritual ark of God today? A spiritual temple of God today?

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Read again...

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

By work? Or faith that we already possess these things in our new man?

keck553
May 3rd 2016, 01:39 PM
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Stonesoffire
May 3rd 2016, 08:06 PM
Works of the Spirit or flesh keck?

How are we led?

I do have a problem with the book of James or possibly the translation of it. Not sure which it would be, but Paul did sharply disagree with him in Acts.

keck553
May 4th 2016, 07:10 PM
I'm certain that he perceives that Jesus is his example to follow.

Well then perhaps he would do as Jesus does and not "hide" his personal revelations from his brothers?

keck553
May 4th 2016, 07:11 PM
Works of the Spirit or flesh keck?

How are we led?

I do have a problem with the book of James or possibly the translation of it. Not sure which it would be, but Paul did sharply disagree with him in Acts.

The Act's disagreement was settled and does not include the Book of James. God included James in His Word, so your problem with James is in essence a problem with God. How are we led? Everyone is led by their faith, whether it is in God or in money of in power. Our actions testifiy to our faith. No actions = no faith. But alas, do you not feed your flesh with food and water? So you must have faith in your flesh, that sustaining it with calories and water sustain it.

You have a problem with it why? Do you think that mental exercises alone accomplish anything for God? Your actions will always come from your faith. If your faith is in God and you OBEY Him, then your actions will be justified.

Stonesoffire
May 5th 2016, 01:07 AM
Mental exercises? My thinking is so far removed from that.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Our flesh body needs food, water, air, etc.

This is why I have another problem. Our English translation.

Plus, denying the baptism of Holy Spirit with the operation of the giftings.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

In the Spirit. Living with The Presence.

The latter is my goal. I do know it's the way to live the life pleasing to Father.

Without the experience of Holy Spirit actively working in our life according to Acts, we won't understand.

I'm not speaking of answers to prayer. Not belittling this either. Nor do I belittle the experience of salvation. But there are three chambers of the temple. I couldn't think of a better word than chambers.

I thought it was some council that chose which books to be included in the bible?

Not trying to create an argument here. But, someone had to encourage me and believe it or not, is my only reason for coming to forums.

keck553
May 5th 2016, 05:10 AM
Mental exercises? My thinking is so far removed from that.

Great to hear!



Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Yep. Abraham was led by the Spirit of God. What did God say about that? I'm sure Paul would agree.

"because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions."

and then there's Jesus -

"if you love Me, you will obey My commandments."

These are physical works. Without faith, they are dead of course and without works, faith is dead.


Our flesh body needs food, water, air, etc.

That is how God designed us for sure. And God is perfect.



This is why I have another problem. Our English translation.

Inflective languages like Greek and Hebrew are tough to translate to english, not to mention the thought patterns of the writers are different than western thought and all the cultural idioms that abound. Word for word misses stuff and idea for idea misses stuff. this I am well aware of and diligent to study. However - hang on to this - the Spirit leads us to all..ALL truth. In Him, we can do this with diligent study, prayer and willingness to abide in the truths we are given.


Plus, denying the baptism of Holy Spirit with the operation of the giftings.

I know of no Christian who denies they are Spirit filled. As to talents, God gives us natural talents and when we serve Him, spiritual talents - and in Him both serve to His glory.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Without faith we can not please God.


In the Spirit. Living with The Presence.

All who belong to Jesus live in His presence.


The latter is my goal. I do know it's the way to live the life pleasing to Father.

You already are in His presence brother. Only God can complete this. Maybe I am mis-reading you, are you talking about spiritual growth and maturity. Paul says to renew our minds. That is my goal anyway..


Without the experience of Holy Spirit actively working in our life according to Acts, we won't understand.

Since we are all Christians here, God Spirit IS working through us according to His will and His pleasure.


I'm not speaking of answers to prayer. Not belittling this either. Nor do I belittle the experience of salvation. But there are three chambers of the temple. I couldn't think of a better word than chambers.
I suppose the physical Temple allegory can only go so far and then the allegory falls apart. There is nothing in the Apostolic Writings that I know of that suggest this applies to Christians. Besides, in Christ we are not of that order, but the order of Melchizedek. We...all who are in Christ can come boldly to the throne of grace - think about how powerful that is. We are in a position where we can intercede for the lost who don't have that relationship. That is an amazing privilege previously reserved only for Priests under the Levite order.



I thought it was some council that chose which books to be included in the bible?

I prefer to believe God closed His books. Otherwise it would be different. There's no stopping God.


Not trying to create an argument here. But, someone had to encourage me and believe it or not, is my only reason for coming to forums.

Encourage you in what way?

Stonesoffire
May 6th 2016, 07:33 PM
I've been asking the Lord for the right words to write here keck, so as to express what I'm trying to say.

This is what I received..

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

We are the body of Jesus Christ on earth. He said in scripture we would do greater works because He goes to Father. This is the walk of Spirit. He came to earth to show us the how, and then left, sent Holy Spirit to earth to empower us that we might walk in His footsteps.

He only worked the works that He saw Father work....and spoke the words He heard Father speak.

Visions and the Voice within. Spirit.

The flesh profits nothing! Flesh- the human nature / human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded)

The Cross has put this to death for us and we are raised up to the same nature of God. Spirit.

We can't change it....make it nice...that's an act. Change comes from faith in that Cross...that we are now one with God or walking about in the resurrection body of Jesus Christ on earth....hearing His Voice....doing by His power. Speaking truth in the power of God.

Paul said he died daily. It is a battle but the battle is won already. We cannot be condemned nor can we judge another brother or sister for failure for as long as we are here in this earthly realm it will only be "in part" on an individual basis. The body all together on earth makes it the whole....yet not completed without those in heaven. Then we will be complete.

Abraham and Moses heard the word, and then did the deed by faith that God had spoke.

What James speaks of...pure religion? Is not the walk that Paul teaches.

Aren't we glad we only have one day to live at a time?

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Keep in Step with the Spirit

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Stonesoffire
May 6th 2016, 07:37 PM
Just to clarify the part about judging brothers and sisters.

Thats as long as there is repentance working, there is restoration.

A hardened heart God will deal with.

keck553
May 7th 2016, 05:33 AM
There is absolutely no disagreement between Paul's writings and the rest of the Bible. And that is a beautiful thing!

Stonesoffire
May 9th 2016, 06:36 PM
Ok. I disagree but I know this thought is not the majority.

keck553
May 9th 2016, 10:10 PM
Ok. I disagree but I know this thought is not the majority.

Well, yes godly council is wise, but I would rather trust in God than some majority any day.

But I would be willing to go line by line where you believe Paul disagrees with God....

ewq1938
May 9th 2016, 11:15 PM
Paul said he died daily.

Actually what he said was he faced death daily because what he taught caused people to want to kill him. But what he believed in was worth the daily risk of death because he knew it was true and knew this life is but a moment out of eternity.