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chad
Jun 25th 2016, 02:14 AM
Why do some people believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased after the Apostles died?

stephen guidry
Jun 25th 2016, 09:00 AM
I do not know if this shapes their belief, or unbelief in the gifts of the Spirit, but some do not believe in the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Maybe the two ideologies are from the same school of thought?

Uncle Bud
Jun 25th 2016, 10:43 AM
With prophesying the end times for example, none of it comes to pass, causing skepticism of the gift. Same with those of judgment on America. Also had personal prophecies told me that didn't happen.

timf
Jun 25th 2016, 09:17 PM
Why do some people believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased after the Apostles died?

At the end of Mark we read what has been called the great commission. Here Jesus tells the disciples what their ministry will be like in the kingdom that is being offered to Israel. Specifically healing and immunity to poison are listed.

While the opportunity to accept the kingdom was being offered to Israel, you had gentiles becoming Christians to provoke the Jews to jealousy. (Romans 11:11) Still Israel did not receive the kingdom.

In the first letter Paul wrote to the church in Corinth he address many problems they had. At the end of the letter he addresses the subject of spiritual gifts as they had created a sort of chaotic situation. In the middle of his discussion he introduces the biblical definition of love implying that the Corinthians were misusing their gifts to show off more that to edify each other.

Just after his description of love Paul mentions that they are using their gifts (specifically prophecy and knowledge) because they are awaiting that which is perfect (complete) a case can be made that the partial declaration Christians could receive of God’s word would be complete once the bible had been compiled and made available. Paul even comments that tongues, prophecies, and knowledge shall “pass away”.

It may be that when Israel finally receives the kingdom that we will once again see the full gifts of the Spirit demonstrated.

CadyandZoe
Jun 25th 2016, 10:26 PM
Why do some people believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased after the Apostles died?

Some denominations of Christianity affirm a special category of "gift" called the "sign gifts", which they consider to be unique to the apostles. This idea comes from passages like 2Cor. 12:12, where Paul says, "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles." Since Paul claims that such signs, wonders and miracles were signs of his apostleship, then it logically follows that such signs, wonders and miracles were unique to the apostles. And since the Apostles are no longer with us, it is reasonable to suggest that such activities have ceased when the final apostle died.

At the same time, however, Paul writes to the Corinthians concerning the proper practice and attitudes associated with prophecy and speaking in tongues, which are gifts that are not restricted to the apostles. Presumably then, these gifts did not end with the apostles.

chad
Jun 25th 2016, 10:30 PM
Imo, it could be that the prophecy has not yet come to pass, or maybe the prophecy originated from the 'mind' of the person giving the prophecy and it was not Gods word but his?


With prophesying the end times for example, none of it comes to pass, causing skepticism of the gift. Same with those of judgment on America. Also had personal prophecies told me that didn't happen.

chad
Jun 25th 2016, 10:37 PM
What does not make sense to me is that the bible records that there are different kinds of gifts, but the same spirit (Gods holy spirit) that distributes them (1 Cor 12:1-11).

Why would the Holy Spirit stop distributing gifts after the time of the apostles when the church is still here on earth, throughout the centuries and up to the present day?




I do not know if this shapes their belief, or unbelief in the gifts of the Spirit, but some do not believe in the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Maybe the two ideologies are from the same school of thought?

chad
Jun 25th 2016, 10:45 PM
Wouldn't it be better to believe that some of the signs and wonders and miracles that were performed during the times the apostles lived may have ceased, rather than the gifts of the spirit?

Signs, wonders, miracles seem to be separate from gifts as written in Heb 2:4?

Hebrews 2:4 (NIV)
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.



Some denominations of Christianity affirm a special category of "gift" called the "sign gifts", which they consider to be unique to the apostles. This idea comes from passages like 2Cor. 12:12, where Paul says, "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles." Since Paul claims that such signs, wonders and miracles were signs of his apostleship, then it logically follows that such signs, wonders and miracles were unique to the apostles. And since the Apostles are no longer with us, it is reasonable to suggest that such activities have ceased when the final apostle died.

At the same time, however, Paul writes to the Corinthians concerning the proper practice and attitudes associated with prophecy and speaking in tongues, which are gifts that are not restricted to the apostles. Presumably then, these gifts did not end with the apostles.

Uncle Bud
Jun 25th 2016, 11:11 PM
Imo, it could be that the prophecy has not yet come to pass, or maybe the prophecy originated from the 'mind' of the person giving the prophecy and it was not Gods word but his?Had to be the latter because time frames were given which came and went without fulfillment.

chad
Jun 26th 2016, 05:22 AM
As I understand it, if prophecy is from God, then it will come to pass. In the OT The book of Jeremiah does write about prophets whose word is not from God.



Had to be the latter because time frames were given which came and went without fulfillment.

Uncle Bud
Jun 26th 2016, 11:36 AM
How can a true Christian make a false prophecy though? A close friend who had a true conversion made several personal ones to me. Not being able to tell if a prophecy is from God or the mind is a good argument for cessationism.

jayne
Jun 26th 2016, 11:55 AM
How can a true Christian make a false prophecy thoughn? A close friend who had a true conversion made several of them.

That's very common and very easy to do - make a false prophecy. Just like it's very easy and very common to give a false interpretation of scripture.

When Christians are caught up in an idea, an event, or even just a passing thought - they can insert their desires and opinions into the Bible and prophecy. It happens all of the time. Christians get focused on the idea or event and not God, not his Word, not the Holy Spirit, and definitely not discernment.

I've heard off the cuff "prophecies" all of my life that never came to pass - people claiming that God "told" them this. It was just their own fanciful thinking and their own elation at the moment at the idea of that thing happening. And these were true Christians.

Uncle Bud
Jun 26th 2016, 12:22 PM
Would the 1948+40=1988 be a good example of false interpretation of Scripture (Matthew 24:34)?

chad
Jun 26th 2016, 08:59 PM
Well, the way I see it is, just because a person gives a false prophecy, doesn't mean that God has decided to stop giving spiritual gifts. It just means someone has given a false prophecy.

(Jer 5:30 KJV) A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

(Jer 5:31 KJV) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?



How can a true Christian make a false prophecy though? A close friend who had a true conversion made several personal ones to me. Not being able to tell if a prophecy is from God or the mind is a good argument for cessationism.

Uncle Bud
Jun 28th 2016, 08:29 PM
That's very common and very easy to do - make a false prophecy. Just like it's very easy and very common to give a false interpretation of scripture.

When Christians are caught up in an idea, an event, or even just a passing thought - they can insert their desires and opinions into the Bible and prophecy. It happens all of the time. Christians get focused on the idea or event and not God, not his Word, not the Holy Spirit, and definitely not discernment.

I've heard off the cuff "prophecies" all of my life that never came to pass - people claiming that God "told" them this. It was just their own fanciful thinking and their own elation at the moment at the idea of that thing happening. And these were true Christians.

I thought false prophecies were supposed to come from cults, not true Christians. This makes prophecy even more unreliable, since 1 John 4:1-2 cannot even be used to determine it's validity, because of course Christians will say Jesus came in the flesh.

Aviyah
Jun 28th 2016, 10:15 PM
I think it's partially because the gifts served their purpose in catapulting the gospel to the world with the early church. That would be my guess.

jayne
Jun 28th 2016, 11:43 PM
I thought false prophecies were supposed to come from cults, not true Christians. This makes prophecy even more unreliable, since 1 John 4:1-2 cannot even be used to determine it's validity, because of course Christians will say Jesus came in the flesh.

I think you and I are talking about two different things. 1 John 4:1-2 is warning Christians to be wary of those who are only posing as Christians, perhaps even deluding themselves, and preaching/teaching/prophesying falsely about who Jesus Christ is.

I am talking about true Christians who get caught up in an idea or event or a spiritual elation and starting "prophesying" things that God has NOT confirmed to them.

Examples:

A very devout Christian woman laid her hands on me about 30 years ago as we passed each other in the hallway between Sunday School and church and said to me very excitedly, "You are going to be a missionary and that's prophecy!". It didn't happen. She was caught up in our missions emphasis and had been telling me in previous weeks that God was making me "single" for a reason. She was sincere, but sincerely wrong.
People in church say things like, "God has told me that you will be married within the next year!" (To me and other singles) It doesn't happen. Again, they were "caught up" in our lives and WANTED us to be married. These are good Christians, but mouth off before praying and seeking God.


They are not spiritually discerning, but they are also not false prophets teaching a false gospel.

Uncle Bud
Jun 28th 2016, 11:48 PM
So 1 John 4:1-2 shouldn't be used to see if a prophecy is being delivered by a true Christian or a cult, or asking them if Jesus came in the flesh? My close friend would have said yes and passed this test, even though he gave not one but numerous false prophecies.

jayne
Jun 29th 2016, 12:04 AM
So 1 John 4:1-2 shouldn't be used to see if a prophecy is being delivered by a true Christian or a cult, or asking them if Jesus came in the flesh? My close friend would have said yes and passed this test, even though he gave not one but numerous false prophecies.

Yes, it should be used .... in my opinion, and I may be quite wrong, but this is about testing preachers/teachers/commentators and those who lead large groups of people as a "shepherd".

I don't see this as about the one layperson telling another layperson something in passing or haphazardly.

boangry
Jun 29th 2016, 01:00 PM
Why do some people believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased after the Apostles died? I don't know what exactly Cessationism is, its not a term used in my circles but im picking up I would be classed or put into that category here... hope I don't get looked down upon or mocked for this stance :-)


Wouldn't it be better to believe that some of the signs and wonders and miracles that were performed during the times the apostles lived may have ceased, rather than the gifts of the spirit?

Signs, wonders, miracles seem to be separate from gifts as written in Heb 2:4?



Hebrews 2:4 (NIV)
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. Yes good point, Im of the viewpoint that some but not all gifts are no longer in use, (sign gifts) But yes gifts and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Still occurs...

As to
Why do some people believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased The question one could also ask is why did the sign gifts occur? (or why are they occurring from a charismatic viewpoint) Not sure what label to put people who believe in sign gifts not ceasing under, which do you prefer?

My short answer is signs/wonders/miracles validate the word of God. Yes that includes Jesus Christ who is the living Word. And at the completion of the Bible we have all the validation and revelation/instruction from God to us for our walk and relationship with Him and that sign gifts are no longer required. As you have noted and I agree Heb 2:4 is saying signs are a witness(validation) with emphasis to the Jews who require a sign (the Messiah had to perform signs)

Hope that simply explains why I think what I think, not trying to be contentious..

TheSkiesAllCry
Jun 29th 2016, 03:20 PM
Why do some people believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased after the Apostles died?

Perhaps it is because few claims to prophetic sight endure the test of time. The holy scriptures warn against false prophecies. Maybe the caution that some show is based on those warnings from the pages of the bible and from experience with claims that later prove untrue?

keck553
Jun 29th 2016, 05:48 PM
God will never cease being God.

Men need to cease trying to be God.

chad
Jun 29th 2016, 08:13 PM
From what I have read, there are different views regarding Cessationism. Some believe that all the gifts ceased when the apostles died. They were a sign of Apostleship, in that signs and wonders accompanied the Apostles and validated them as Apostles.

If the gifts have ceased, what does the believer do with all the scripture the NT writes about the gifts of the spirit. Do we just ignore them?

And what do we do about all the people who claim they operate in the gifts of the spirit today. If gifts have ceased - by what power are they operating in the so called gifts of the spirit?


Others believe that some of the gifts ceased when the apostles died, but some still operate.

But then why would God through the Holy Spirit stop giving gifts to the church. It is the same Holy Spirit who operates in the Church. It is the same Holy Spirit who distributes the gifts.

I think the gifts and miracles may not operate in the same way as they did when the Apostles lived, but they still exist.

For example. We don't see any many miracles of healing today where handkerchiefs and aprons heal the sick and evil spirits leave them when handkerchiefs and aprons touch them as in Acts 19:12.



I don't know what exactly Cessationism is, its not a term used in my circles but im picking up I would be classed or put into that category here... hope I don't get looked down upon or mocked for this stance :-)

Yes good point, Im of the viewpoint that some but not all gifts are no longer in use, (sign gifts) But yes gifts and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Still occurs...

As to The question one could also ask is why did the sign gifts occur? (or why are they occurring from a charismatic viewpoint) Not sure what label to put people who believe in sign gifts not ceasing under, which do you prefer?

My short answer is signs/wonders/miracles validate the word of God. Yes that includes Jesus Christ who is the living Word. And at the completion of the Bible we have all the validation and revelation/instruction from God to us for our walk and relationship with Him and that sign gifts are no longer required. As you have noted and I agree Heb 2:4 is saying signs are a witness(validation) with emphasis to the Jews who require a sign (the Messiah had to perform signs)

Hope that simply explains why I think what I think, not trying to be contentious..

boangry
Jun 29th 2016, 11:18 PM
From what I have read, there are different views regarding Cessationism. Some believe that all the gifts ceased when the apostles died. They were a sign of Apostleship, in that signs and wonders accompanied the Apostles and validated them as Apostles. I guess I will clarify how I see it from a cessation point of view for you :-) yes sign gifts ceased, and were signs of Apostleship but Apostles also laid hands on people and gave gifts to others, for example if all the Apostles had died by 100AD and Timothy could still speak in tongues if he was alive in 120AD I guess im pointing out the Apostles dying was not the trigger for sign gifts to cease.



If the gifts have ceased, what does the believer do with all the scripture the NT writes about the gifts of the spirit. Do we just ignore them? Since I believe its the same Spirit that gives gifts today, just not the sign gifts then I think I apply scripture correctly, the Believers in Corinth were encouraged to desire spiritual gifts, after they were told, tongues will cease, prophecies will fail and knowledge will vanish, etc


And what do we do about all the people who claim they operate in the gifts of the spirit today. If gifts have ceased - by what power are they operating in the so called gifts of the spirit? If you mean say a gift of miracles, I simply believe they don't operate today, and don't operate under any power.



Others believe that some of the gifts ceased when the apostles died, but some still operate.

But then why would God through the Holy Spirit stop giving gifts to the church. It is the same Holy Spirit who operates in the Church. It is the same Holy Spirit who distributes the gifts. I guess it all comes down to why was their sign gifts? there was no NT scripture how was anyone going to believe Peter was writing or teaching Gods Word, the only way was to have sign gifts to validate his authority was from God from my point of view...


I think the gifts and miracles may not operate in the same way as they did when the Apostles lived, but they still exist.

For example. We don't see any many miracles of healing today where handkerchiefs and aprons heal the sick and evil spirits leave them when handkerchiefs and aprons touch them as in Acts 19:12. Are you saying they may not operate in the same way because they seem to happen less frequent?

chad
Jun 30th 2016, 01:14 AM
The NT does record the apostles laying hands on people so they would receive the 'gift of the Holy Spirit' rather than gifts. The NT also writes that the gifts are given by the Holy Spirit.

So I don't think I agree that the Apostles laid hands on people so they could receive gifts, but the gift of the Holy Spirit, yes.

If you believe that gifts were transmitted by the laying of hands of the apostles, you could possibly make the argument that when the apostles died, therefore they could no longer lay hands on people, therefore the gifts ceased.

But the scripture also records people receiving the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands. And it is the Holy Spirit who gives gifts according to the will of the spirit.

I think that we see the gifts less frequently operating in the church today as it did in the time of acts (well at least where I live).



I guess I will clarify how I see it from a cessation point of view for you :-) yes sign gifts ceased, and were signs of Apostleship but Apostles also laid hands on people and gave gifts to others, for example if all the Apostles had died by 100AD and Timothy could still speak in tongues if he was alive in 120AD I guess im pointing out the Apostles dying was not the trigger for sign gifts to cease.


Since I believe its the same Spirit that gives gifts today, just not the sign gifts then I think I apply scripture correctly, the Believers in Corinth were encouraged to desire spiritual gifts, after they were told, tongues will cease, prophecies will fail and knowledge will vanish, etc

If you mean say a gift of miracles, I simply believe they don't operate today, and don't operate under any power.


I guess it all comes down to why was their sign gifts? there was no NT scripture how was anyone going to believe Peter was writing or teaching Gods Word, the only way was to have sign gifts to validate his authority was from God from my point of view...

Are you saying they may not operate in the same way because they seem to happen less frequent?

TheSkiesAllCry
Jun 30th 2016, 07:44 AM
First Corinthians 12 through 14 does not appear to teach that the imposition of apostolic hands is a necessary preliminary to reception of any of the gifts of the Spirit outlined in chapter 12. If the interposition of apostolic hands were a necessary prerequisite for endowment with one or more of the gifts mentioned in chapter 12 then ought that not be a part of the teaching given in the chapters?

ProDeo
Jun 30th 2016, 07:47 AM
I think you and I are talking about two different things. 1 John 4:1-2 is warning Christians to be wary of those who are only posing as Christians, perhaps even deluding themselves, and preaching/teaching/prophesying falsely about who Jesus Christ is.

I am talking about true Christians who get caught up in an idea or event or a spiritual elation and starting "prophesying" things that God has NOT confirmed to them.

Examples:

A very devout Christian woman laid her hands on me about 30 years ago as we passed each other in the hallway between Sunday School and church and said to me very excitedly, "You are going to be a missionary and that's prophecy!". It didn't happen. She was caught up in our missions emphasis and had been telling me in previous weeks that God was making me "single" for a reason. She was sincere, but sincerely wrong.
People in church say things like, "God has told me that you will be married within the next year!" (To me and other singles) It doesn't happen. Again, they were "caught up" in our lives and WANTED us to be married. These are good Christians, but mouth off before praying and seeking God.


They are not spiritually discerning, but they are also not false prophets teaching a false gospel.
Come on, this is terrible. People stepping on God's throne and speaking on His behalf. These people need a good eye-to-eye conversation.

ProDeo
Jun 30th 2016, 07:50 AM
God will never cease being God.

Men need to cease trying to be God.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to keck553 again.

stephen guidry
Jun 30th 2016, 10:30 AM
The NT does record the apostles laying hands on people so they would receive the 'gift of the Holy Spirit' rather than gifts. The NT also writes that the gifts are given by the Holy Spirit.

So I don't think I agree that the Apostles laid hands on people so they could receive gifts, but the gift of the Holy Spirit, yes.

If you believe that gifts were transmitted by the laying of hands of the apostles, you could possibly make the argument that when the apostles died, therefore they could no longer lay hands on people, therefore the gifts ceased.

But the scripture also records people receiving the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands. And it is the Holy Spirit who gives gifts according to the will of the spirit.

I think that we see the gifts less frequently operating in the church today as it did in the time of acts (well at least where I live).

Yes, and yes. As for seeing the gifts of the Holy Spirit in today's churches, I think many are evident and working constantly for the good of the church. Preaching, Teaching, Evangelizing, Helps, Faith, and more are evident today in the churches I visit.

boangry
Jul 1st 2016, 04:29 AM
The NT does record the apostles laying hands on people so they would receive the 'gift of the Holy Spirit' rather than gifts. The NT also writes that the gifts are given by the Holy Spirit.

So I don't think I agree that the Apostles laid hands on people so they could receive gifts, but the gift of the Holy Spirit, yes. Yes ill admit I come to the conclusion that sign gifts given by the laying of hands is implicit, and yes the Samaritan believers hadn't received the HS yet, But I think we would agree it was a sign for the Jews of the HS not being just for them? likewise another sign later that the HS was for the gentiles? And that now the HS is received immediately by everyone upon belief, also no one now can give the HS to another now by the laying on hands.



If you believe that gifts were transmitted by the laying of hands of the apostles, you could possibly make the argument that when the apostles died, therefore they could no longer lay hands on people, therefore the gifts ceased. yea that's pretty much what I believe, of course those that had received the sign gifts also have to die out.


But the scripture also records people receiving the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands. And it is the Holy Spirit who gives gifts according to the will of the spirit. I think Im with you here :-)


I think that we see the gifts less frequently operating in the church today as it did in the time of acts (well at least where I live). Even though im of the ceased viewpoint, I think that the last days must be soon, and a time of miracles, and resurrections etc will be happening and will be big world news events, Of course it wont be much fun here then though...

chad
Jul 1st 2016, 07:44 AM
What is meant by signs gifts? I have never heard of that before? Is there any list that defines which 'signs' are included as 'signs gifts' which have ceased?



I guess I will clarify how I see it from a cessation point of view for you :-) yes sign gifts ceased, and were signs of Apostleship but Apostles also laid hands on people and gave gifts to others, for example if all the Apostles had died by 100AD and Timothy could still speak in tongues if he was alive in 120AD I guess im pointing out the Apostles dying was not the trigger for sign gifts to cease.


Since I believe its the same Spirit that gives gifts today, just not the sign gifts then I think I apply scripture correctly, the Believers in Corinth were encouraged to desire spiritual gifts, after they were told, tongues will cease, prophecies will fail and knowledge will vanish, etc

If you mean say a gift of miracles, I simply believe they don't operate today, and don't operate under any power.


I guess it all comes down to why was their sign gifts? there was no NT scripture how was anyone going to believe Peter was writing or teaching Gods Word, the only way was to have sign gifts to validate his authority was from God from my point of view...

Are you saying they may not operate in the same way because they seem to happen less frequent?

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 1st 2016, 08:54 AM
What is meant by signs gifts? I have never heard of that before? Is there any list that defines which 'signs' are included as 'signs gifts' which have ceased?

First Corinthians 14 mentions tongues (languages) as a sign. 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Slug1
Jul 1st 2016, 02:31 PM
Why do some people believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased after the Apostles died?
Some fail to understand that the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and "a" purpose involved is for the empowerment of the Body of Christ and not "just" for the Apostles. The gifts are for the empowerment of the the Body for God's work and in my opinion, some just want to believe they only do God's work their way, and not His way... in the POWER of the Holy Spirit.

chad
Jul 1st 2016, 09:06 PM
So the gifts of tongues and propechy ceased?


First Corinthians 14 mentions tongues (languages) as a sign. 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 2nd 2016, 02:04 AM
So the gifts of tongues and prophecy ceased?

To the best of my knowledge I've never heard somebody speak in tongues as did the disciples in Acts chapter two. I cannot recall ever hearing a credible prophetic utterance. However, I do not claim that such things are impossible.

chad
Jul 2nd 2016, 02:47 AM
I have heard it taught, that the tongues on the day of pentecost was different to the gift of tongues.

On the day of pentecost people were able to speak in tongues of different languages and others were able to understand.

With the gift of tongues, one speaks, another interprets so the church is edified (1 Cor 14:5).
Tongues are a sign for the unbeliever (1 Cor 14:22)
Paul also speaks of tongues, which edify a person and also tongues that edify the Church (1 Cor 14:4)

Of Prophecy, I know some people that do not believe there are Prophets now days (As in the Prophets of the OT), but there are some that operate in the gift of prophecy (1 Cor 13:2).






To the best of my knowledge I've never heard somebody speak in tongues as did the disciples in Acts chapter two. I cannot recall ever hearing a credible prophetic utterance. However, I do not claim that such things are impossible.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 2nd 2016, 08:05 AM
I have hear it taught, that the tongues on the day of pentecost was different to the gift of tongues.

On the day of pentecost people were able to speak in tongues of different languages and others were able to understand.

With the gift of tongues, one speaks, another interprets so the church is edified (1 Cor 14:5).
Tongues are a sign for the unbeliever (1 Cor 14:22)
Paul also speaks of tongues, which edify a person and also tongues that edify the Church (1 Cor 14:4)

Of Prophecy, I know some people that do not believe there are Prophets now days (As in the Prophets of the OT), but there are some that operate in the gift of prophecy (1 Cor 13:2).

I've heard many people speak gibberish including people who were former Charismatics wishing to illustrate how easy it is to emulate what passes as tongues in charismatic circles. Gibberish like that is not speaking in God given languages (tongues).

chad
Jul 2nd 2016, 09:37 AM
I have heard people speak in tongues. I couldn't understand them. I guess there needs to be someone who can interpret?



I've heard many people speak gibberish including people who were former Charismatics wishing to illustrate how easy it is to emulate what passes as tongues in charismatic circles. Gibberish like that is not speaking in God given languages (tongues).

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 2nd 2016, 09:40 AM
I have heard people speak in tongues. I couldn't understand them. I guess there needs to be someone who can interpret?

That is what the holy scriptures teach as necessary when foreign languages are spoken in a congregation.

rom826
Jul 2nd 2016, 02:56 PM
I thought false prophecies were supposed to come from cults, not true Christians. This makes prophecy even more unreliable, since 1 John 4:1-2 cannot even be used to determine it's validity, because of course Christians will say Jesus came in the flesh.

Since there are counterfeit 20 dollar bills out there, that means there is no such thing as a real $20 bill. Is that the point you are trying to make?

chad
Jul 2nd 2016, 07:25 PM
I don't think I have ever seen tongues spoken in a church service, where an interpretation has been given. Just the type as written in 1 Cor 14:4 - where someone speaks in tongues to edify themselves.



That is what the holy scriptures teach as necessary when foreign languages are spoken in a congregation.

keck553
Jul 2nd 2016, 07:45 PM
To the best of my knowledge I've never heard somebody speak in tongues as did the disciples in Acts chapter two. I cannot recall ever hearing a credible prophetic utterance. However, I do not claim that such things are impossible.

And ACTS 2 dovetails right in with "tongues being a sign for unbelievers."

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2016, 03:56 PM
Since there are counterfeit 20 dollar bills out there, that means there is no such thing as a real $20 bill. Is that the point you are trying to make?AWESOME way to make this very specific point. Rep ya!

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2016, 04:18 PM
And ACTS 2 dovetails right in with "tongues being a sign for unbelievers."We can't disregard that the gift is called, "different kindS of tongues."

In Acts 2 we find one "kind" of this manifestation of the gift of tongues. Where a man speaks in their native tongue, but the (example only) Russian in the crowd hears the speaker speaking Russian and the German standing next to the Russian, hears the speaker speaking German.

Another kind of tongues is speaking in a language that is not understood by the speaker, but only God understands (1 Cor 14; Romans 8), when this KIND of tongues is manifesting, then the speaker is only to speak to God. The purpose for this manifestation of the Holy Spirit's "power" is for the edification on a spiritual level for ONLY the one who is speaking. Based on the Romans 8 example, the person is going through hell, yeah I said it because lets be real... so when the Holy Spirit steps is and prays words we cannot bear to speak nor KNOW what to speak, He does the praying and speaking for us.

Again, ONLY for the speaker.

Another kind, similar to the previous version of tongues but this one is for OTHERS to be edified (1 Cor 14) and the complementary gift of "interpretation" of tongues will also manifest so that ALL who are listening to the person speaking in tongues, those who are manifesting the gift of interpretation of tongues, are being used by God (remember - the gifts are His and for His use to edify the Body (scripture says, to "profit" the Body) and to glorify Himself [1 Cor 12]) so that those listening, are profited. Profit is a great term, as is edify because then the "message" can be of any kind.

I've testified publicly and through posts on this board, one of the best examples I've personally experienced in the past was when I was in rebellion toward God and a person came up to me and they began to speak in tongues as they had been praying over me. The interpretation of the tongues spoke of the sin I was committing in privacy and what God wanted me to do to overcome the sin...

That, believe it or not, is EDIFICATION and profit to myself as a member of the Body. In my journaling, I call that moment my "Nathan" moment, in relation to Nathan being used by God to TELL King David of the sin he committed.

Tongues, the various kindS, has it's purposes, and YES, unbelievers is a MAJOR purpose as we find in Acts 10 when the only unbelievers in the whole room were the Jews, one of which is an Apostle of God :) Another kind of unbeliever are those with no faith in God... so do we want to GO DEEPER in learning?

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 3rd 2016, 04:39 PM
I don't think I have ever seen tongues spoken in a church service, where an interpretation has been given. Just the type as written in 1 Cor 14:4 - where someone speaks in tongues to edify themselves.
I've heard people speak after somebody has spoken in gibberish. I presume that the second speaker would think he/she was 'interpreting'. I don't know what relationship exists between the gibberish and the second bit of speaking.

And ACTS 2 dovetails right in with "tongues being a sign for unbelievers."
Yes, it appears to fit well.

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2016, 07:13 PM
I've heard people speak after somebody has spoken in gibberish. I presume that the second speaker would think he/she was 'interpreting'. I don't know what relationship exists between the gibberish and the second bit of speaking.Instead of the term gibberish, Paul details that a "distinction" of sound must be applied. So while speaking in tongues "sounds" like gibberish, when interpretation of tongues is also manifest by the power of the Holy Spirit, then what Paul teaches about, "distinction" enables the "gibberish" as sounds, to be turned into edification for the profit of the Body.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 3rd 2016, 07:36 PM
Instead of the term gibberish, Paul details that a "distinction" of sound must be applied. So while speaking in tongues "sounds" like gibberish, when interpretation of tongues is also manifest by the power of the Holy Spirit, then what Paul teaches about, "distinction" enables the "gibberish" as sounds, to be turned into edification for the profit of the Body.

You are correct, if what sounds like gibberish to me is in fact a language that is capable of being translated into English (in my case English is the language to translate to) then the contents of the gibberish may become meaningful. It is hard to tell if what is said by a second speaker is a translation into English of what was said by the first speaker who spoke in gibberish. If the first and second speakers are recorded do you think it is possible for a translation to be made of the gibberish into English by somebody who is expert in the language in which the gibberish is spoken?

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2016, 08:48 PM
You are correct, if what sounds like gibberish to me is in fact a language that is capable of being translated into English (in my case English is the language to translate to) then the contents of the gibberish may become meaningful. It is hard to tell if what is said by a second speaker is a translation into English of what was said by the first speaker who spoke in gibberish. If the first and second speakers are recorded do you think it is possible for a translation to be made of the gibberish into English by somebody who is expert in the language in which the gibberish is spoken?Paul also teaches about angelic languages, and in my opinion, when a person speaks in a language that is lost to the world (per see), so I do not bet on any recording being deciphered as I am only referring to the Holy Spirit gift of tongues and the Holy Spirit gift of interpretation of tongues (as the source for understanding). Sure, discernment is needed as well as proper discipleship as Paul gave to the Corinthians. A whole bunch of Christian nut cases spouting off in tongues without love and also, without allowing the Holy Spirit (due to a lack of order) to manifest interpretation of tongues for the profit of the Body.

Today, we do have a bunch of nut cases, spouting off in what is NOT tongues... thus why the Bible informs us to test the "spirits" as in the world, the Holy Spirit acts, our human spirits act and also, demonic spirits act and when any of those spirits are "speaking"... all hell can be let loose and people are hurt so badly, as is raised... does a false $20 in the world mean that there are NO true $20 in the world?

Nope... but proper discipling, education, testing etc can detect a false $20, the same with the Spiritual gifts that are also imitated (by demonic spirits) or faked (by our human spirit) and the false (either demonic or human spirit led chaos) can be IDed as false and the real deal, still can profit the Body.

Much of today's Body is in chaos just as the Corinthians... all due to a lack of proper discipleship and thus, demonic and human spirits are free to MOVE in churches and as I mentioned, many are hurt, no one trusts anything... to include God when the real deal manifests through the power of the Holy Spirit.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 3rd 2016, 11:40 PM
Paul also teaches about angelic languages, and in my opinion, when a person speaks in a language that is lost to the world (per see), so I do not bet on any recording being deciphered as I am only referring to the Holy Spirit gift of tongues and the Holy Spirit gift of interpretation of tongues (as the source for understanding). Sure, discernment is needed as well as proper discipleship as Paul gave to the Corinthians. A whole bunch of Christian nut cases spouting off in tongues without love and also, without allowing the Holy Spirit (due to a lack of order) to manifest interpretation of tongues for the profit of the Body.

Today, we do have a bunch of nut cases, spouting off in what is NOT tongues... thus why the Bible informs us to test the "spirits" as in the world, the Holy Spirit acts, our human spirits act and also, demonic spirits act and when any of those spirits are "speaking"... all hell can be let loose and people are hurt so badly, as is raised... does a false $20 in the world mean that there are NO true $20 in the world?

Nope... but proper discipling, education, testing etc can detect a false $20, the same with the Spiritual gifts that are also imitated (by demonic spirits) or faked (by our human spirit) and the false (either demonic or human spirit led chaos) can be IDed as false and the real deal, still can profit the Body.

Much of today's Body is in chaos just as the Corinthians... all due to a lack of proper discipleship and thus, demonic and human spirits are free to MOVE in churches and as I mentioned, many are hurt, no one trusts anything... to include God when the real deal manifests through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I do not recall seeing any teaching about angelic languages. I can recall a verse that uses hyperbole to list some things that Paul thinks would fail to profit him. The verses say this:


1Co 13:1-3 NASB If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
But if the gift of the Spirit is the only means by which one may translate what is said by one who speaks what sounds like gibberish then maybe you have a point. Do you think that is what the passage in first Corinthians is teaching?

Paul writes in chapter fourteen as if he expects the seeming gibberish to be translatable by one who speaks the language (dialect) in which the gibberish sounds are spoken. He writes:


1Co 14:5-13 NASB Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. 6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching? 7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp? 8 For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. 13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
Paul appears to expect the one who speaks in the seeming gibberish to pray for the ability to translate it. I expect that Paul was thinking that the speaker would translate it into Greek since the people in Corinth would very likely speak Greek in day to day living. And Paul mentions kinds of languages spoken in the world rather than kinds of languages spoken in heaven. It does not appear as if Paul means to say that the Corinthian Christians were speaking angelic languages. Besides, why would angels have many languages rather than one. Humanity once had only one language according to the scriptures:


Gen 11:1 NASB Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.
and the multiplication of human languages into many was an act of God to prevent humanity from usurping God's purposes.


Gen 11:6-9 NASB The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. 7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.
Maybe Paul recalled the story of the tower of Bable as he wrote to the Christians in Corinth about their practises in meetings? That may be why he places the gift of languages so low in the order of spiritual gifts. Besides Paul goes on to write:


1Co 14:14-19 RSV For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
and these words from Paul suggest that speaking intelligently in a language known by one's hearers is worth a great deal more than speaking in any language that one's hearers do not know. So it seems that neither an angelic language which is unknown to one's hearers nor an earthly language that is similarly unknown is of any value unless it is translated into a language that one's hearers do know.

So if one cannot know that the first speaker's words (spoken in a language unknown to the hearers) are accurately translated by the second speaker who is speaking in a language that is known, because the first speaker is speaking in a language that (for the sake of argument) we can call "angelic" then the idea of a translated language become a matter of trust in the truthfulness of both the first and the second speakers since you have no way to verify the claim that the seeming gibberish spoken by the first is translated by the second.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 02:58 AM
I do not recall seeing any teaching about angelic languages. I can recall a verse that uses hyperbole to list some tings that Paul thinks would fail to profit him. The verses say this:

1Co 13:1-3 NASB If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

But if the gift of the Spirit is the only means by which one may translate what is said by one who speaks what sounds like gibberish then maybe you have a point. Do you think that is what the passage in first Corinthians is teaching?

Paul writes in chapter fourteen as if he expects the seeming gibberish to be translatable by one who speaks the language (dialect) in which the gibberish sounds are spoken. He writes:

1Co 14:5-13 NASB Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. 6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching? 7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp? 8 For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. 13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

Paul appears to expect the one who speaks in the seeming gibberish to pray for the ability to translate it. I expect that Paul was thinking that the speaker would translate it into Greek since the people in Corinth would very likely speak Greek in day to day living. And Paul mentions kinds of languages spoken in the world rather than kinds of languages spoken in heaven. It does not appear as if Paul means to say that the Corinthian Christians were speaking angelic languages. Besides, why would angels have many languages rather than one. Humanity once had only one language according to the scriptures:

Gen 11:1 NASB Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.

and the multiplication of human languages into many was an act of God to prevent humanity from usurping God's purposes.

Gen 11:6-9 NASB The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. 7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.

Maybe Paul recalled the story of the tower of Bable as he wrote to the Christians in Corinth about their practises in their meetings? That may be why he places the gift of languages so low in the order of spiritual gifts. Besides Paul goes on to write:

1Co 14:14-19 RSV For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

and these words from Paul suggest that speaking intelligently in a language known by one's hearers is worth a great deal more than speaking in any language that one's hearers do not know. So it seems that neither an angelic language which is unknown to one's hearers nor an earthly language that is similarly unknown is of any value unless it is translated into a language that one's hearers do know.

So if one cannot know that the first speaker (speaking in a language unknown to you) words are accurately translated by the second speaker who is speaking in a language that is known because the first speaker is speaking in a language that (for the sake of argument) we can call "angelic" then the idea of a translated language become a matter of trust in the truthfulness of both the first and the second speakers since you have no way to verify the claim that the seeming gibberish spoken by the first is translated by the second.In relation of a final comment you made and I underlined. Remember, Jayne gives us a base model of "testing the spirits". She was a victim of the "human spirit" speaking prophecy, or in many cases, FAKING IT! But, due to the lack of proper discipleship, that woman most likely believes she was speaking propheticLY as per the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why I say "base" model in testing spirits is by listening, putting the prophetic word on a "hanger" and then... wait. Does one CHANGE their life to fit the prophecy, NO. To do such a thing plays into what is called, "self-fulfilling" prophecy and oh, look... a true prophet is in the church and many others begin to listen and adjust their lives to fit what the person speaks "prophetically".

In time, lives begin to implode and life becomes a serious mess, people are hurt and instead of looking at the "false prophet" as the source of the many problems in the church... people only look into the problems and try to find where they are going wrong.

Whats wrong... is they are completely out of the will of God and completely into the will of the prophet.

I will make some additional comments later in direct response to some of your other comments/points.

I will also say this as this thought hits me... when a person is praying "silently" to God for something and another person, who may exercise the gift of prophecy speaks "into" what has been prayed in silence (can use 1 Cor 14:25 as support of the use of prophecy), then we can really begin the hanger process of confirmation. God will give OTHER confirmations and as events in a person's life change and begin to point toward fulfillment of the prophetic word, AGAIN - not the person changing to fit the prophecy... and when it comes to pass, TESTIMONY will follow. Testimony always follows and such is an indicator of what is true or who is true to the gift of prophecy.

Based on Jayne's testimony, and I've listened to real life testimony very similar, as a leader in a church, I disciple anyone who loosely "gives prophetic words" off the cuff such as what Jayne describes and they are stopped. Someone receives a "word" for another in the church where I serve God, they first pass it to the the senior pastor and then he, and others he may choose of the leadership... PRAY.

Or, the senior pastor is fully aware of a situation, as are other leaders and someone in the church who has no clue but we know exercises the gifts of prophecy, or of knowledge or even wisdom, and they tell leadership of a word they received for another member of the church, and due to the leaders knowledge of the situation and that the word is "an answer, or edification, direction, etc" then the senior pastor is most likely to allow immediate speaking of the word to the other person.

In the end, we LEARN to test what is of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit vs what is of man by their own power and undiscipled maturity and they fly by the cuff speaking "what comes into their spirit." This leads to eventual chaos and hurt.

In the end, and by the evidence of what "comes to pass" and testimony given, there is no chaos, no hurt, no MISLEADING of sheep when such action of testing is MADE. This is basic... include the gift of discernment, involvement of the Word of God, involvement of prayer and intercession, we get more advanced in testing :)

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 4th 2016, 07:34 AM
John the apostle who was chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ writes about discernment with these words:


1Jn 4:1-6 ESV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Testing the spirits appears to mean deciding if the message spoken comes from God or if it comes from some other source pretending to be God. Naturally if it is a message pretending to be from God it is of necessity wicked. It ought not be received as a message from God. In the old testament Moses wrote:


Deu 13:1-5 ESV "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
Christians ought to exercise similar caution about messages that claim to be from God. Test them. Makes sure they are from God. Only receive what really is from God. Reject what pretends to be from God.

CadyandZoe
Jul 4th 2016, 12:47 PM
We can't disregard that the gift is called, "different kindS of tongues."

In Acts 2 we find different kinds of tongues.

5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

Each of those countries spoke a different tongue. That is what Paul meant by "different kinds of tongues."

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 02:14 PM
In Acts 2 we find different kinds of tongues.

5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

Each of those countries spoke a different tongue. That is what Paul meant by "different kinds of tongues."You are missing the context, read around the verse you underlined. The context is that each man is speaking their language but others are hearing the words in their own native languages. That is why there is such confusion. There would be NO confusion if I speak in English and everyone hears me speaking in English. But when there are (per the contextual example of the scriptures when all the verses are applied for understanding of their meaning/context)... the Russian in the crowd hears me speaking Russian and the German next to them, hears me speaking in German. The Chinese person next to them, hears me in Chinese and as they discuss "what" they are hearing IN THEIR native tongue, and NOT Russian as the Russian hears, and the German doesn't hear it in Chinese, etc, etc, etc...

THAT was why there is such confusion.

This is one kind of tongues. I friend, once was on a missionary trip in Africa and this person is from Ireland. While on the missions trip and pastor greeted them, brought them to where they would stay, etc. Later in the night, they were all together in prayer and when the "African" pastor prayed, my friend was impressed that the African could speak/pray in Celtic. WELL... he was praying in his native language and my friend heard it in Celtic, another in the group, an Englishman, heard it in English and there were some other nationals, all of which heard the praying in their native language.

So this is a specific "kind" of ONE of the different kindS of tongues.

Does that mean you are in error, hardly because the gift also manifests as you say and a person who has never spoken in Spanish may find themselves ministering to a Spanish only speaking person and when they speak, they speak in Spanish.

Different kindS of tongues involves the many languages of this world but the purposes of the gift is multi-leveled and multi-purposed for the profit of the Body and glorification of God. Some speak in tongues only to the glory of God as the Bible details that only HE can understand the language being uttered.

CadyandZoe
Jul 4th 2016, 02:56 PM
You are missing the context, read around the verse you underlined. The context is that each man is speaking their language but others are hearing the words in their own native languages. That is why there is such confusion. There would be NO confusion if I speak in English and everyone hears me speaking in English. But when there are (per the contextual example of the scriptures when all the verses are applied for understanding of their meaning/context)... the Russian in the crowd hears me speaking Russian and the German next to them, hears me speaking in German. The Chinese person next to them, hears me in Chinese and as they discuss "what" they are hearing IN THEIR native tongue, and NOT Russian as the Russian hears, and the German doesn't hear it in Chinese, etc, etc, etc...

THAT was why there is such confusion.Personally, the situation you describe wouldn't be that confusing to me. As long as I'm hearing the word of God in my own language, why would I be confused? If the Russian in the crowd hears you speak Russian, he won't be confused. If the German next to him hears it in German, he won't be confused either. In your scenario, I don't see any source of confusion.

In the Star Trek TV show and movies, the characters interact with each other using a "universal translator" device, making it possible for people from various species and languages to communicate with each other as if they were all speaking the same language. This fictional example seems parallel to the situation you describe and illustrates a lack of confusion and/or misunderstanding. When I see French movies dubbed into English, I'm not confused either. Even if I notice that the English words don't align perfectly with the lips of the French speaker, I am still not confused. If I hear the dialogue in my own language, I am not confused.

Therefore, I don't think your explanation best fits the context of the passage. It seems to me that the only people who might have a reason to mock and accuse the men of being drunk were those who didn't like the message they heard. These mocking statements aren't fair and reasonable objections to what had taken place. Mocking statements are typically made to discredit what has been said, to raise doubt. These men were contemptuous of the message and those who were mocking understood perfectly what was being said but they just didn't like what they heard. So they attempted to hold the speakers up to ridicule and scoff at them, hoping to discredit what was said.

All of that having been said, I don't agree with those who claim that the gift of tongues can be classified according to whether the "tongue" is understandable or not. In other words, I am not convinced that glossolalia is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit or another "kind" of tongue.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 03:31 PM
Personally, the situation you describe wouldn't be that confusing to me. As long as I'm hearing the word of God in my own language, why would I be confused? If the Russian in the crowd hears you speak Russian, he won't be confused. If the German next to him hears it in German, he won't be confused either. In your scenario, I don't see any source of confusion. The confusion described in the scriptures is about the (per see) the Russian hearing Russian, but the German hearing German but to the Russian, the speaker isn't speaking German, and to the German, the speaker isn't speaking Russian.

This form of tongues is as you are stating, so the "hearer" is not confused in what the speaker is speaking.

BUT... when you are hearing the German speaker speaking in their native language but you are hearing them speak in English and the Italian next to you is hearing them in Italian and neither of you are aware of the power of the Holy Spirit... then there will be confusion. As detailed in the scriptures.


All of that having been said, I don't agree with those who claim that the gift of tongues can be classified according to whether the "tongue" is understandable or not. In other words, I am not convinced that glossolalia is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit or another "kind" of tongue.Then what supernatural power source did empower the speakers in Acts 2 if you don't believe the Holy Spirit empowered them?

Kalahari
Jul 4th 2016, 03:45 PM
The confusion described in the scriptures is about the (per see) the Russian hearing Russian, but the German hearing German but to the Russian, the speaker isn't speaking German, and to the German, the speaker isn't speaking Russian.

This form of tongues is as you are stating, so the "hearer" is not confused in what the speaker is speaking.

BUT... when you are hearing the German speaker speaking in their native language but you are hearing them speak in English and the Italian next to you is hearing them in Italian and neither of you are aware of the power of the Holy Spirit... then there will be confusion. As detailed in the scriptures.

I do not see it as you do. If it was only Peter speaking and all hear it in their tongue, I would agree with you, but it said all who received the Spirit spoke in different tongues, so some were speaking Russian and others were speaking German per your example. That was the confusion. because Jews could now miraculously speak in other tongues that were understood by different nations.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 04:07 PM
I do not see it as you do. If it was only Peter speaking and all hear it in their tongue, I would agree with you, but it said all who received the Spirit spoke in different tongues, so some were speaking Russian and others were speaking German per your example. That was the confusion. because Jews could now miraculously speak in other tongues that were understood by different nations.Hmmm :hmm:

Then what do you make of this verse as the Jews were speaking tongues?

v8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

And if you understand the meaning of this verse as each Jew was speaking only a langauge that was understood, then what of the testimony I posted?


This is one kind of tongues. I friend, once was on a missionary trip in Africa and this person is from Ireland. While on the missions trip and pastor greeted them, brought them to where they would stay, etc. Later in the night, they were all together in prayer and when the "African" pastor prayed, my friend was impressed that the African could speak/pray in Celtic. WELL... he was praying in his native language and my friend heard it in Celtic, another in the group, an Englishman, heard it in English and there were some other nationals, all of which heard the praying in their native language.

I said that I agree that this gift can be where a person who has never spoken in a language that is needed to witness Christ or minister too (pray or worship) another, the gift of tongues can enable a person to speak in a language that they've never learned, so others can be profited. But, looking at the example of scripture in Acts 2, and testimony of trusted brothers/sisters in Christ as such as posted.... :hmm:

The verses in Acts 2 supports the experience and the testimony that followed the experience.

Per your example, a group of Jews speaking other languages... that would not cause confusion as people learn other languages and can speak them.

Again, the confusion was that the Arab was hearing Arabic and the Cretan didn't hear Arabic, but their own native language instead (v12).

Kalahari
Jul 4th 2016, 04:14 PM
Hmmm :hmm:

Then what do you make of this verse as the Jews were speaking tongues?

v8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

And if you understand the meaning of this verse as each Jew was speaking only a langauge that was understood, then what of the testimony I posted?



I said that I agree that this gift can be where a person who has never spoken in a language that is needed to witness Christ or minister too (pray) another, the gift of tongues can enable a person to speak in a language that they've never learned, so others can be profited. But, looking at the example of scripture in Acts 2, and testimony of trusted brothers/sisters in Christ as such as posted.... :hmm:

The verses in Acts 2 supports the experience and the testimony that followed the experience.

I do not disbelieve the testimony, but I do not see it as being the same in Acts 2. In Acts 2 Jews started speaking in different tongues. Some spoke Arabic, some spoke Persian etc. All the nations being there could hear their own tongues from different people. Otherwise God could let only Peter speak and all would understand. Don't you think?

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 04:33 PM
I do not disbelieve the testimony, but I do not see it as being the same in Acts 2. In Acts 2 Jews started speaking in different tongues. Some spoke Arabic, some spoke Persian etc. All the nations being there could hear their own tongues from different people. Otherwise God could let only Peter speak and all would understand. Don't you think?If a bunch of people come out of a room, speaking multiple languages, there can't be any confusion. The discussion would be more about how did the Jews learn so many languages and the conclusion could only be that the many Jews were lingual in other languages and exercised their knowledge of such learned languages. Such ability would be a natural learned ability as one learns other languages and speaks them. However, something supernatural occurred! The scriptures don't reveal any multiple natural learned language(s) being spoken by the Jews, instead the Jews were speaking and, per v9 and contextual with v12, while the Arab heard Arabic, the Cretan didn't hear Arabic, but Cretan instead... thus THE CONFUSION!

Kalahari
Jul 4th 2016, 04:44 PM
If a bunch of people come out of a room, speaking multiple languages, there can't be any confusion. The discussion would be more about how did the Jews learn so many languages and the conclusion could only be that the many Jews were lingual in other languages and exercised their knowledge of such learned languages. Such ability would be a natural learned ability as one learns other languages and speaks them. However, something supernatural occurred! The scriptures don't reveal any multiple natural learned language(s) being spoken by the Jews, instead the Jews were speaking and, per v9 and contextual with v12, while the Arab heard Arabic, the Cretan didn't hear Arabic, but Cretan instead... thus THE CONFUSION!

According to your understanding, when Peter spoke in verse 14 was it so they could hear it in their own tongues or was he speaking Aramic/Hebrew?

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 05:03 PM
According to your understanding, when Peter spoke in verse 14 was it so they could hear it in their own tongues or was he speaking Aramic/Hebrew?When Peter began to witness and explain the supernatural occurrence by the power of the Holy Spirit that had just happened. Beginning at v14, he referred to what happened a moment ago... so I can assume he is speaking in Hebrew... naturally as his own utterance, not an utterance given in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit per v4 and what followed UNTIL, Peter began to make explanation and also witness.

Kalahari
Jul 4th 2016, 05:14 PM
When Peter began to witness and explain the supernatural occurrence by the power of the Holy Spirit that had just happened. Beginning at v14, he referred to what happened a moment ago... so I can assume he is speaking in Hebrew... naturally as his own utterance, not an utterance given in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit per v4 and what followed UNTIL, Peter began to make explanation and also witness.

I agree with you here. I still do not agree with your explanation of what happened previously, but each according to his own understanding.

CadyandZoe
Jul 4th 2016, 05:55 PM
The confusion described in the scriptures is about the (per see) the Russian hearing Russian, but the German hearing German but to the Russian, the speaker isn't speaking German, and to the German, the speaker isn't speaking Russian.

This form of tongues is as you are stating, so the "hearer" is not confused in what the speaker is speaking.

BUT... when you are hearing the German speaker speaking in their native language but you are hearing them speak in English and the Italian next to you is hearing them in Italian and neither of you are aware of the power of the Holy Spirit... then there will be confusion. As detailed in the scriptures.Once again, I don't see the confusion.


Then what supernatural power source did empower the speakers in Acts 2 if you don't believe the Holy Spirit empowered them?Did I say that Acts 2 was not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I don't think I did.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 06:04 PM
Did I say that Acts 2 was not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I don't think I did.So was the previous quote I replied to, your intent of the statement was in relation to "today's" speaking in tongues?

If so, the question is the same... what supernatural power source empowers those speaking in tongues today, if you don't believe the Holy Spirit empowers those speaking in tongues today?

CadyandZoe
Jul 4th 2016, 06:56 PM
So was the previous quote I replied to, your intent of the statement was in relation to "today's" speaking in tongues? I don't understand the question. Can you word it a different way?

Slug1
Jul 4th 2016, 07:38 PM
I don't understand the question. Can you word it a different way?Sure :idea:

You said this and I previously quoted:


All of that having been said, I don't agree with those who claim that the gift of tongues can be classified according to whether the "tongue" is understandable or not. In other words, I am not convinced that glossolalia is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit or another "kind" of tongue.The first part of my questioning is as follows now...

is your intent of the statement (and belief) in relation to "today's" speaking in tongues?

boangry
Jul 5th 2016, 02:44 AM
What is meant by signs gifts? I have never heard of that before? Is there any list that defines which 'signs' are included as 'signs gifts' which have ceased?

I guess I use the term sign gifts to differentiate gifts that are supernatural visible manifestations, as opposed to the gifts that are not visible to the physical eye, so as not to cause confusion. There are three lists and only one by my way of thinking lists the signs gifts.

The first list..
Co 12:7-10 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues

Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healings, Miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretation.

The second list

Rom 12:6-8 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy

Romans follows Corinthians in chronology of the writing, And when I read the second list I see the sign gifts omitted, andI see as spiritual gifts (prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy) There is contention around the word "prophecy" and "word of wisdom" I simply see parallel usages of both Words for example prophecy can be the forth telling of Scripture by God through man or the fore telling of future events by God/HS or scripture through man

2Pe 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Again the second list being after 1Cor 13:8


Gifts that will cease, 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I know people will then disagree on when these gifts will cease and what that is which is perfect has come is :-0 which makes for an interesting study of course... and it should be noted the Corinthians know and were told that they will cease...

Slug1
Jul 5th 2016, 03:08 AM
I guess I use the term sign gifts to differentiate gifts that are supernatural visible manifestations, as opposed to the gifts that are not visible to the physical eye, so as not to cause confusion. There are three lists and only one by my way of thinking lists the signs gifts.

The first list..
Co 12:7-10 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues

Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healings, Miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretation.

The second list

Rom 12:6-8 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy

Romans follows Corinthians in chronology of the writing, And when I read the second list I see the sign gifts omitted, andI see as spiritual gifts (prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy) There is contention around the word "prophecy" and "word of wisdom" I simply see parallel usages of both Words for example prophecy can be the forth telling of Scripture by God through man or the fore telling of future events by God/HS or scripture through man

2Pe 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Again the second list being after 1Cor 13:8


Gifts that will cease, 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I know people will then disagree on when these gifts will cease and what that is which is perfect has come is :-0 which makes for an interesting study of course... and it should be noted the Corinthians know and were told that they will cease...:)

Verse 9-10 is where we are informed when those gifts will pass away:

v9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Seems by determining what "perfect" means in verse 10, is the clincher.

Another consideration in determining when they will fail and pass away, is when their use/need is done away with. God used them to "prove" to the lost, He's God. He also uses them for the profit of the Body.... so does God have no more need to prove who He is to the lost, or not profit the Body anymore?

When Christ has come, sure... no more need to manifest those gifts anymore.

CadyandZoe
Jul 5th 2016, 03:14 AM
Sure :idea:

You said this and I previously quoted:

The first part of my questioning is as follows now...

is your intent of the statement (and belief) in relation to "today's" speaking in tongues?

Why is the word "today's" in quotes? I'm still having a hard time understanding the question.

keck553
Jul 5th 2016, 03:55 AM
We can't disregard that the gift is called, "different kindS of tongues."

In Acts 2 we find one "kind" of this manifestation of the gift of tongues. Where a man speaks in their native tongue, but the (example only) Russian in the crowd hears the speaker speaking Russian and the German standing next to the Russian, hears the speaker speaking German.

Another kind of tongues is speaking in a language that is not understood by the speaker, but only God understands (1 Cor 14; Romans 8), when this KIND of tongues is manifesting, then the speaker is only to speak to God. The purpose for this manifestation of the Holy Spirit's "power" is for the edification on a spiritual level for ONLY the one who is speaking. Based on the Romans 8 example, the person is going through hell, yeah I said it because lets be real... so when the Holy Spirit steps is and prays words we cannot bear to speak nor KNOW what to speak, He does the praying and speaking for us.

Again, ONLY for the speaker.

Another kind, similar to the previous version of tongues but this one is for OTHERS to be edified (1 Cor 14) and the complementary gift of "interpretation" of tongues will also manifest so that ALL who are listening to the person speaking in tongues, those who are manifesting the gift of interpretation of tongues, are being used by God (remember - the gifts are His and for His use to edify the Body (scripture says, to "profit" the Body) and to glorify Himself [1 Cor 12]) so that those listening, are profited. Profit is a great term, as is edify because then the "message" can be of any kind.

I've testified publicly and through posts on this board, one of the best examples I've personally experienced in the past was when I was in rebellion toward God and a person came up to me and they began to speak in tongues as they had been praying over me. The interpretation of the tongues spoke of the sin I was committing in privacy and what God wanted me to do to overcome the sin...

That, believe it or not, is EDIFICATION and profit to myself as a member of the Body. In my journaling, I call that moment my "Nathan" moment, in relation to Nathan being used by God to TELL King David of the sin he committed.

Tongues, the various kindS, has it's purposes, and YES, unbelievers is a MAJOR purpose as we find in Acts 10 when the only unbelievers in the whole room were the Jews, one of which is an Apostle of God :) Another kind of unbeliever are those with no faith in God... so do we want to GO DEEPER in learning?

My experience is that when God needs to tell me something, it's direct and presonal. He knows what works for me, but I am well aware that "one size doesn't fit all" when it comes to spiritual leading from God. I am not here to deny anything, but to affirm.

chad
Jul 5th 2016, 04:00 AM
Imo, I disagree with the conclusion you make regarding Romans 12:6-8. Imo, just because Paul does not list all the gifts in Romans 12:6-8, it does not necessarily mean the gifts ceased by then and that is the reason he did not include them in Rom 12:6-8. Imo, it just means that Paul has not listed some of the gifts when writing to the Romans.


The book Hebrews was written after Romans and it mentions gifts, although it does not provide a list of the gifts:

Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.



I guess I use the term sign gifts to differentiate gifts that are supernatural visible manifestations, as opposed to the gifts that are not visible to the physical eye, so as not to cause confusion. There are three lists and only one by my way of thinking lists the signs gifts.

The first list..
Co 12:7-10 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues

Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healings, Miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretation.

The second list

Rom 12:6-8 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy

Romans follows Corinthians in chronology of the writing, And when I read the second list I see the sign gifts omitted, andI see as spiritual gifts (prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy) There is contention around the word "prophecy" and "word of wisdom" I simply see parallel usages of both Words for example prophecy can be the forth telling of Scripture by God through man or the fore telling of future events by God/HS or scripture through man

2Pe 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Again the second list being after 1Cor 13:8


Gifts that will cease, 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I know people will then disagree on when these gifts will cease and what that is which is perfect has come is :-0 which makes for an interesting study of course... and it should be noted the Corinthians know and were told that they will cease...

Slug1
Jul 5th 2016, 04:27 AM
Why is the word "today's" in quotes? I'm still having a hard time understanding the question.I emphasized "today's" because you did say in a previous answer, that you understood that the Holy Spirit was fully involved in the empowerment of the glossolalia spoken on Pentecost as detailed in Acts 2.


Did I say that Acts 2 was not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I don't think I did.

So... when the same happens "today"... does your other statement apply to those who speak tongues today where you believe that the Holy Spirit is not involved in the empowerment?

If so... then if your belief is that the Holy Spirit is not empowering the Body with the gift of tongues... then how is the Body empowered when a person is able to speak in tongues that haven't learned, nor maybe never even heard before?

boangry
Jul 5th 2016, 11:52 AM
Imo, I disagree with the conclusion you make regarding Romans 12:6-8. Imo, just because Paul does not list all the gifts in Romans 12:6-8, it does not necessarily mean the gifts ceased by then and that is the reason he did not include them in Rom 12:6-8. Imo, it just means that Paul has not listed some of the gifts when writing to the Romans.


The book Hebrews was written after Romans and it mentions gifts, although it does not provide a list of the gifts:

Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

I agree its not proof text by any stretch of the imagination , but it is interesting the next comparison, the list addressed to the Romans (its the Jews that require a sign) does not have the sign gifts listed, yet as you quote the verse in Hebrews is the contrast

The context is referring to the Lord, the argument has just been established how he is superior than the angels, the superiorness of (sry, doesn't appear to be a word) the Son of God to the law and prophets etc, and there is further proof for the Jews, through the signs and wonders he performed and those that heard him (Apostles and disciples) therefore great is the warning for those who refuse the gospel of God. How appropriate it is in the epistle to the Hebrews, It is the Jews whom require a sign.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

This verse seems to show the early gospel ministry requires signs to authenticate the gospel message? If I needed to authenticate a gospel message all I have to do is compare it with scriptures something the early church could not do...

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: (I think the connotation is negative for both) Believers accept by faith what appears to be at first the foolishness of the cross.

boangry
Jul 5th 2016, 12:15 PM
:)

Verse 9-10 is where we are informed when those gifts will pass away:

v9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Seems by determining what "perfect" means in verse 10, is the clincher.

Another consideration in determining when they will fail and pass away, is when their use/need is done away with. God used them to "prove" to the lost, He's God. He also uses them for the profit of the Body.... so does God have no more need to prove who He is to the lost, or not profit the Body anymore?

When Christ has come, sure... no more need to manifest those gifts anymore.

I can totally understand why or how you see that "perfect" is Christ, since he is perfect, but, I can also see how the word or the bible being completed could be also addressed as perfect.

So if I understand you correctly you have tongues as God proving Himself to the lost and also for the profit of the body, and ask if I disagree, I suppose from my viewpoint I do disagree, I don't see signs and wonders as being the stepping stone to believing in God, I see faith as the mechanism, and faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith being the evidence of things not seen etc, Rom 10:17 Heb 1:1

I might come across as naïve but I go to a very conservative church, which rightly or wrongly does not practice the sign gifts or teach that they still occur, So what is the profit to the body Im missing out on?

boangry
Jul 5th 2016, 12:39 PM
I do not see it as you do. If it was only Peter speaking and all hear it in their tongue, I would agree with you, but it said all who received the Spirit spoke in different tongues, so some were speaking Russian and others were speaking German per your example. That was the confusion. because Jews could now miraculously speak in other tongues that were understood by different nations.

I see it more this way also, For example James spoke to the Parthians in their language, John to the Medes in their language ( I went to make a list but not 100% sure on who or what are their own unique language) :idea: :rolleyes:

Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

1.Parthians, James
2.and Medes, John
3.and Elamites, Andrew
and the dwellers in Mesopotamia,
and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, Philip
4.in Pontus, Thomas
5.and Asia, Bartholomew
6.Phrygia, Matthew
7.and Pamphylia, James the son of Alphaeus
8.in Egypt, Simon Zelotes
and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,
and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Peter
9.Cretes and Judas the brother of James
10.and Arabians, Matthias

we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Also the crowd could hear and differentiate that Matthias was speaking Arabic, James Parthian etc..



Hmmm :hmm:

Then what do you make of this verse as the Jews were speaking tongues?

v8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? I think the "in which we were born" is note worthy lots of proselytes and vistors from the world go to Jerusalem at that time of year, but some would move to the areas and live there, lots of towns had a heavy Roman influence with outposts etc and nearly all would be at least bilingual. Why couldn't Peter have addressed everyone in common Greek when he addressed all?



Again, the confusion was that the Arab was hearing Arabic and the Cretan didn't hear Arabic, but their own native language instead (v12). This may have already been asked but how would it cause confusion? If I heard someone talking to me in my native language and a friend heard them talking to them in their own language, we wouldn't even know till afterwards when I offered to translate for him or vice versa?

If the disciples were all speaking the gospel in everyones languages and all the people heard them in languages from around the world (both theirs and theirs neighbours), would that not be both amazing and cause for those to wonder or mock

CadyandZoe
Jul 5th 2016, 02:20 PM
I emphasized "today's" because you did say in a previous answer, that you understood that the Holy Spirit was fully involved in the empowerment of the glossolalia spoken on Pentecost as detailed in Acts 2.No, you misunderstood me. Glossolalia is not supernatural or a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Glossolalia is an emotional, psychological, religious experience which is natural not supernatural. People of all religions, not just Christianity, experience glossolalia.

The gift of tongues, as recorded in Acts 2 is not glossolalia. The gift of tongues is the preaching of God's word in languages that can be understood by those in attendance. Tongues is not natural, it is supernatural. Tongues is not an emotional, psychological, religious experience; tongues is a way to communicate with others.

Anyone who says, "I pray in an unknown tongue, that not even I understand" is not speaking in tongues. This is not the gift of tongues.

Slug1
Jul 5th 2016, 03:19 PM
Anyone who says, "I pray in an unknown tongue, that not even I understand" is not speaking in tongues. This is not the gift of tongues.Then why the gift of Interpretation of Tongues?

It is clear, Biblically, that when a person speaks in tongues, they don't understand what they are saying, if they did, then there is no need for the gift of Interpretation of Tongues :hmm:

CadyandZoe
Jul 5th 2016, 03:42 PM
Then why the gift of Interpretation of Tongues?

It is clear, Biblically, that when a person speaks in tongues, they don't understand what they are saying, if they did, then there is no need for the gift of Interpretation of Tongues :hmm:

The goal of anyone spreading the gospel is to be understood. The Holy Spirit gifts speakers with real time translations of the gospel message into other languages so that listeners can understand. The Holy Spirit also gifts hearers of the gospel with real time translations of the gospel into their own language. Whether the Holy Spirit gifts those who speak or those who hear is the choice of the Holy Spirit on a case-by-case basis according to his wisdom, and in each and every case, with the intent of being understood.

Slug1
Jul 5th 2016, 04:01 PM
The goal of anyone spreading the gospel is to be understood. The Holy Spirit gifts speakers with real time translations of the gospel message into other languages so that listeners can understand. The Holy Spirit also gifts hearers of the gospel with real time translations of the gospel into their own language. Whether the Holy Spirit gifts those who speak or those who hear is the choice of the Holy Spirit on a case-by-case basis according to his wisdom, and in each and every case, with the intent of being understood.OK, so case by case, what about this case detailed in the scriptures where a person speaks without understanding of the words (mind not fruitful)?

v2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28684b)] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28684c)] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

So we have one case where NO gift of interpretation manifests, revealing that a person's spirit is empowered to utter a language they don't understand, but spiritually, they are edified. It is after all, the Holy Spirit empowering them to speak in a language they have NO CLUE in understanding. Case 2, others are to be edified, so when interpretation is also manifesting for the purpose that others are edified, we have this other case.


I've stated earlier, spirits... the Holy Spirit (real deal tongues), the human spirit (fake tongues), demonic spirits (imitation/counterfeit tongues). Glossolalia is a term used in reference to all three actually, but as has been raised... just because there are counterfeit $20 in the world, does not mean, there are real $20 :)

Just because a person is speaking in an unknown tongue and they, nor anyone can understand, the Bible SPECIFICALLY teaches that when this is happening, then that are to only speak with God, as the reality is that their spirit is empowered by the Holy Spirit and is speaking to God... not the person. What the person receives, is their internal edification that the Holy Spirit is manifesting in power and this edifies them.

Don't disregard the teaching in the Bible and say/determine that ALL who utter an unknown language, are not speaking in tongues. Some aren't (fakers and imitations) but some ARE based on 1 Cor 14.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 5th 2016, 04:52 PM
OK, so case by case, what about this case detailed in the scriptures where a person speaks without understanding of the words (mind not fruitful)?

One's mind being unfruitful appears to mean that nobody else gains any benefit from what is in one's mind or in one's words if the words heard by others sound like gibberish. There's no clear implication that one's mind is uncomprehending when one speaks in another language unknown to one's hearers.




v2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28684b)] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28684c)] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

So we have one case where NO gift of interpretation manifests, revealing that a person's spirit is empowered to utter a language they don't understand, but spiritually, they are edified. It is after all, the Holy Spirit empowering them to speak in a language they have NO CLUE in understanding. Case 2, others are to be edified, so when interpretation is also manifesting for the purpose that others are edified, we have this other case.


I've stated earlier, spirits... the Holy Spirit (real deal tongues), the human spirit (fake tongues), demonic spirits (imitation/counterfeit tongues). Glossolalia is a term used in reference to all three actually, but as has been raised... just because there are counterfeit $20 in the world, does not mean, there are real $20 :)

Just because a person is speaking in an unknown tongue and they, nor anyone can understand, the Bible SPECIFICALLY teaches that when this is happening, then that are to only speak with God, as the reality is that their spirit is empowered by the Holy Spirit and is speaking to God... not the person. What the person receives, is their internal edification that the Holy Spirit is manifesting in power and this edifies them.

Don't disregard the teaching in the Bible and say/determine that ALL who utter an unknown language, are not speaking in tongues. Some aren't (fakers and imitations) but some ARE based on 1 Cor 14.

Slug1
Jul 5th 2016, 05:52 PM
One's mind being unfruitful appears to mean that nobody else gains any benefit from what is in one's mind or in one's words if the words heard by others sound like gibberish. There's no clear implication that one's mind is uncomprehending when one speaks in another language unknown to one's hearers.I was going with what the scriptures tell us. Some can't accept the scriptures which inform us that while the mind is unfruitful by the words that come out of their own mouth (v14), the purpose for this kind of manifestation of tongues is for "their" spiritual edification only (v14, as the person's spirit is praying, not "them" - thus why the mind is not understanding). Also why the scripture also teach/show us that when this kind of tongues manifests, they are to only speak with God as detailed in v28. Not out loud to others when there is no manifestation of Interpretation of tongues.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 5th 2016, 06:41 PM
I was going with what the scriptures tell us. Some can't accept the scriptures which inform us that while the mind is unfruitful by the words that come out of their own mouth (v14), the purpose for this kind of manifestation of tongues is for "their" spiritual edification only (v14, as the person's spirit is praying, not "them" - thus why the mind is not understanding).

Verse 14 says "(For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive." which does not say nor necessarily imply that one's mind is uncomprehending.


Also why the scripture also teach/show us that when this kind of tongues manifests, they are to only speak with God as detailed in v28. Not out loud to others when there is no manifestation of Interpretation of tongues.

Slug1
Jul 5th 2016, 06:44 PM
Verse 14 says "(For) if I pray in a tongue, my spirit is at prayer but my mind is unproductive." which does not say nor necessarily imply that one's mind is uncomprehending.Interesting.

What does the term used in the translation you chose to utilize mean in it's choosing the term... "but my mind is unproductive" for a translation?

Especially when you read in context and a previous verse says this:

v 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

FOR NO ONE understands him... "him" being the speaker who is manifesting tongues and not "they" but their spirit is praying.

Context and deciphering scripture with scripture (for proper understanding) with such a verse, shows us that unfruitful, or unproductive MEANS... not understanding... why?

Because only God can understand what is being said, NO ONE else can understand the words being spoken by the person's spirit, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 5th 2016, 07:14 PM
Interesting.

What does the term used in the translation you chose to utilize mean in it's choosing the term... "but my mind is unproductive" for a translation?


The KJV uses "unfruitful" and fruit is the produce of fruit trees hence "unproductive" means the same thing but with a less horticultural emphasis. The Greek word is


ἄκαρπος
ákarpos; gen. akárpou, masc.-fem., neut. ákarpon, adj. from the priv. a (G1), without, and karpós (G2590), fruit, produce. Unfruitful, bearing no fruit (Jud 1:12 [cf. Mat 13:22; Mar 4:19; Titus 3:14; 2Pe 1:8]; Sept.: Jer 2:6). Unprofitable, producing bad fruit (1Co 14:14; Eph 5:11).
Syn.: achreíos (G888), useless, unprofitable.
Ant.: karpophóros (G2593), fruit-bearing; eúchrēstos (G2173) and Onḗsimos (G3682), profitable.
(source: The Complete Word Study Dictionary 1993)



Especially when you read in context and a previous verse says this:

v 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

FOR NO ONE understands him... "him" being the speaker who is manifesting tongues and not "they" but their spirit is praying.

Context and deciphering scripture with scripture (for proper understanding) with such a verse, shows us that unfruitful, or unproductive MEANS... not understanding... why?

Because only God can understand what is being said, NO ONE else can understand the words being spoken by the person's spirit, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Slug1
Jul 5th 2016, 07:18 PM
The KJV uses "unfruitful" and fruit is the produce of fruit trees hence "unproductive" means the same thing but with a less horticultural emphasis. The Greek word is

ἄκαρπος
ákarpos; gen. akárpou, masc.-fem., neut. ákarpon, adj. from the priv. a (G1), without, and karpós (G2590), fruit, produce. Unfruitful, bearing no fruit (Jud_1:12 [cf. Mat_13:22; Mar_4:19; Tit_3:14; 2Pe_1:8]; Sept.: Jer_2:6). Unprofitable, producing bad fruit (1Co_14:14; Eph_5:11).
Syn.: achreíos (G888), useless, unprofitable.
Ant.: karpophóros (G2593), fruit-bearing; eúchrēstos (G2173) and Onḗsimos (G3682), profitable.


(source: The Complete Word Study Dictionary 1993)Hooah!

So when we look at the context of the teaching Paul is giving to us... by the v2, I raised that Paul is pointing out that NO ONE understands what is coming out of the mouth of a person manifesting this kind of tongues. Paul teaches us that ONLY God is understanding.

Thus unfruitful and unproductive means... in layman's terms... no understanding, no comprehension, etc. MAN CAN'T understand whatever language is being spoken, because the "spirit" in the speaker isn't speaking to mankind.

Do you agree with the teachings revealed in v2?

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 5th 2016, 07:31 PM
Hooah!

So when we look at the context of the teaching Paul is giving to us... by the v2, I raised that Paul is pointing out that NO ONE understands what is coming out of the mouth of a person manifesting this kind of tongues.

Yes, but the word translated "understands" in verse 2 is the word for "hears". The passage does in fact say "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit." The greek word translated "hears" and "understands" is:


ἀκούω
akoúō; fut. akoúsō, aor. pass. ēkoústhēn, perf. akḗkoa, perf. pass. ḗkousmai. To hear. It governs a gen. either of the person or thing, to hear someone or something, or more usually an acc. of the thing.

(I) To hear in general (Mat 2:3, Mat 2:9, Mat 2:18; Mat 9:12; Mat 10:27; Mat 11:5; Mat 12:19; Mar 7:25; Mar 10:41; Mar 14:64; Luk 7:3, Luk 7:9; Joh 3:8; Sept.: Gen 3:8, Gen 3:10).
(II) To hear with attention, hearken or listen to (Mar 4:3; Mar 7:14; Mar 12:29, Mar 12:37; Luk 5:1; Luk 10:39; Luk 11:31; Act 2:22; Act 15:7); in respect to a teacher (Mar 6:20; Luk 15:1; Luk 19:48); hoi akoúontes (pres. part. pl. as part. noun), these hearing, i.e., disciples to understand, hear with the ear of the mind (Mat 11:15; Joh 8:43, Joh 8:47; 1Co 14:2).

(Source: The Complete Word Study Dictionary 1993)

Paul teaches us that ONLY God is understanding.

Thus unfruitful and unproductive means... in layman's terms... no understanding, no comprehension, etc. MAN CAN'T understand whatever language is being spoken, because the "spirit" in the speaker isn't speaking to mankind.

Do you agree with the teachings revealed in v2?

divaD
Jul 5th 2016, 08:50 PM
Hooah!

So when we look at the context of the teaching Paul is giving to us... by the v2, I raised that Paul is pointing out that NO ONE understands what is coming out of the mouth of a person manifesting this kind of tongues. Paul teaches us that ONLY God is understanding.

Thus unfruitful and unproductive means... in layman's terms... no understanding, no comprehension, etc. MAN CAN'T understand whatever language is being spoken, because the "spirit" in the speaker isn't speaking to mankind.

Do you agree with the teachings revealed in v2?

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


When I was a Charismatic back in the 80s, the Charismatic churches I attended avoided verse 27 and 28 like the plague. Are there then churches today that follow to the letter what verse 27 and 28 says to do and not do?

1...If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three

2...and let one interpret.

3...if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church

4...and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Number 3 and 4 somewhat puzzles me. If one is to keep silence in the church because there is no interpreter, how does one then speak to himself, and to God, since that seems to contradict keeping silence in the church? Is this then meaning speaking to yourself, and to God, only through your thoughts but not vocally through words being uttered through one's mouth?

CadyandZoe
Jul 5th 2016, 09:34 PM
OK, so case by case, what about this case detailed in the scriptures where a person speaks without understanding of the words (mind not fruitful)?

v2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28684b)] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Cor+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28684c)] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

So we have one case where NO gift of interpretation manifests, revealing that a person's spirit is empowered to utter a language they don't understand, but spiritually, they are edified. It is after all, the Holy Spirit empowering them to speak in a language they have NO CLUE in understanding. Case 2, others are to be edified, so when interpretation is also manifesting for the purpose that others are edified, we have this other case.


I've stated earlier, spirits... the Holy Spirit (real deal tongues), the human spirit (fake tongues), demonic spirits (imitation/counterfeit tongues). Glossolalia is a term used in reference to all three actually, but as has been raised... just because there are counterfeit $20 in the world, does not mean, there are real $20 :)

Just because a person is speaking in an unknown tongue and they, nor anyone can understand, the Bible SPECIFICALLY teaches that when this is happening, then that are to only speak with God, as the reality is that their spirit is empowered by the Holy Spirit and is speaking to God... not the person. What the person receives, is their internal edification that the Holy Spirit is manifesting in power and this edifies them.

Don't disregard the teaching in the Bible and say/determine that ALL who utter an unknown language, are not speaking in tongues. Some aren't (fakers and imitations) but some ARE based on 1 Cor 14.

Apparently we don't understand this passage the same way.

TheSkiesAllCry
Jul 6th 2016, 12:30 AM
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


When I was a Charismatic back in the 80s, the Charismatic churches I attended avoided verse 27 and 28 like the plague. Are there then churches today that follow to the letter what verse 27 and 28 says to do and not do?

1...If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three

2...and let one interpret.

3...if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church

4...and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Number 3 and 4 somewhat puzzles me. If one is to keep silence in the church because there is no interpreter, how does one then speak to himself, and to God,

Perhaps by quiet muttering (as in the meditation mentioned in the psalms where meditation is also the word for mutter) or maybe by silent (or near silent) prayer that disturbs nobody else.


since that seems to contradict keeping silence in the church? Is this then meaning speaking to yourself, and to God, only through your thoughts but not vocally through words being uttered through one's mouth?

Slug1
Jul 6th 2016, 01:55 AM
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


When I was a Charismatic back in the 80s, the Charismatic churches I attended avoided verse 27 and 28 like the plague. Are there then churches today that follow to the letter what verse 27 and 28 says to do and not do?

1...If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three

2...and let one interpret.

3...if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church

4...and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Number 3 and 4 somewhat puzzles me. If one is to keep silence in the church because there is no interpreter, how does one then speak to himself, and to God, since that seems to contradict keeping silence in the church? Is this then meaning speaking to yourself, and to God, only through your thoughts but not vocally through words being uttered through one's mouth?This is where a person quietly prays. I've listened to a speaker who, while speaking through a mic, begin to pray in tongues and they immediately flipped the mic off and they lowered their voice to basically a whisper. No one could hear the words which was spoken for a moment and then they turned the mic on and continued with the preaching.

I've listened to people pray in one on one prayer, praying over another person and one in the prayer group begin to pray in tongues, but they do not lower their voice and then, another finds themselves interpreting. The Holy Spirit is in control and WHEN people are obedient, all is in order.

The first testimony/example is where the person who began to speak in tongues was not moved to continue to speak "aloud" for all to hear because, per the lead of the Holy Spirit, no interpretation was coming through another in the Body... so, in obedience, they spoke only with God and no one could really hear it and only the speaker is edified. The other however, God was to edify the group and the person who began to utter (pray) in the spirit, empowered by the Holy Spirit, in their obedience continued to pray in tongues out loud. Then, the Holy Spirit gave the interpretation to another and they, in obedience, spoke the meaning of the words that no one could understand. We were all edified.

This is a result/example of properly discipled members of the Body.