PDA

View Full Version : How far can Grace save?



Trivalee
Jun 27th 2016, 04:08 PM
I am concerned by the inferences from some believers that their salvation is somewhat "sealed and protected" because of grace despite their sins. This assumption to my understanding is erroneous and misleading. I have searched the scriptures diligently and found that grace which is given to liberate us from sin can only do so if we do not on our own accord enslave ourselves with sin (Gal 5:1). I, therefore, came to the following conclusions:

1. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence.
2. Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.
3. Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.
4. Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
5. Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
6. Grace cannot force obedience.
7. Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

The above highlights the perils of backsliding and v-6 particularly points to its distasteful nature before God. Is there anyone who believes that a Christian who dies while they have backslid will still be saved by grace?

keck553
Jun 27th 2016, 04:28 PM
Check out Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians 5:4.

That may help

Aviyah
Jun 27th 2016, 05:27 PM
If salvation can be lost then I'm going to hell, no question. Adam and Eve fell after just one sin. I can't even hope to be remotely perfect for the rest of my life. But I don't believe it can be lost given that our reconciliation came while we were still enemies of God. We were not saved because we chose to be righteous - so I don't see why choosing to be righteous is a requirement to remain saved. Forgiveness is not given as a result of our good behavior; repentance is evidence of having already been saved.

I'm open to other ideas, but the message of conditional forgiveness is one of hopelessness. It requires we who cannot swim to save ourselves from drowning, as opposed to the gospel I was saved by which teaches that God reaches in the water and pulls us out when we slip - like Peter - if we are His children. We are only reborn once. But I would say that if salvation can be lost, then at this point it can never be regained per your interpretation of Hebrews 6.

BrianW
Jun 27th 2016, 05:46 PM
I don't like the term "lost" or "lose" when it comes to salvation. It's not like you can accidentally drop it somewhere or not be able to find it again now is it?

No, it takes a conscious, willful turning away from God/Christ. You have to willfully decide to stop listening to and being convicted by the Holy Spirit. There is a huge difference between struggling with sin, being sorrowful over it and prayerfully/fearfully asking God to give you strength, increase your faith and see you through even though you are not worthy and...

just doing what you want to do and not caring. Just shrugging your struggles away and not worrying about it because..."Hey, I'm saved! Obey? I believe and that's enough."

It goes beyond belief and it is faith by faith we grow. Peter heard the cock crow three times just as Jesus told him he would. Remember what Jesus named Simon -Peter ( Rock) and that He would would build His church upon him.
That didn't mean Simon/Peter the person but upon His faith, belief and understanding that God had given Him. Peter denied Christ not once but three times and still, he repented, asked for forgiveness and was shown mercy. He didn't dwell on it overlong instead he continued to persevere and do God work and obey.

Even the apostles who walked with Christ in the flesh sinned from time to time. Don't forget that. Paul said that he himself sinned from time to time even though he -as we should- hated sin.

No, we do not "lose" our salvation. We have to willfully give it up. An yes, grace covers a multitude of sins. God cares far more about our hearts and minds than if we slip from time to time.
He knows that we will slip and He loves us anyway. Do we love Him? That's the important question right there.

If we could "lose" our salvation so easily I'd be forever dammed many, many times over.

divaD
Jun 27th 2016, 05:47 PM
I am concerned by the inferences from some believers that their salvation is somewhat "sealed and protected" because of grace despite their sins. This assumption to my understanding is erroneous and misleading. I have searched the scriptures diligently and found that grace which is given to liberate us from sin can only do so if we do not on our own accord enslave ourselves with sin (Gal 5:1). I, therefore, came to the following conclusions:

1. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence.
2. Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.
3. Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.
4. Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
5. Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
6. Grace cannot force obedience.
7. Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

The above highlights the perils of backsliding and v-6 particularly points to its distasteful nature before God. Is there anyone who believes that a Christian who dies while they have backslid will still be saved by grace?


Of these 7 things you listed I see them all being good strong points except for maybe number 3. As to that one, one could simply sin and before they might confess it they are killed in a car accident. Doesn't mean they might not have confessed it eventually had they lived longer. Now that I have said that, the same logic might apply to 2 as well then. So basically then, it would be 1, and 4-7 being good strong points.

Kalahari
Jun 27th 2016, 06:31 PM
I am concerned by the inferences from some believers that their salvation is somewhat "sealed and protected" because of grace despite their sins. This assumption to my understanding is erroneous and misleading. I have searched the scriptures diligently and found that grace which is given to liberate us from sin can only do so if we do not on our own accord enslave ourselves with sin (Gal 5:1). I, therefore, came to the following conclusions:

1. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence.
2. Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.
3. Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.
4. Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
5. Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
6. Grace cannot force obedience.
7. Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

The above highlights the perils of backsliding and v-6 particularly points to its distasteful nature before God. Is there anyone who believes that a Christian who dies while they have backslid will still be saved by grace?


Can you perhaps put Scripture next to each point to confirm it?

RogerW
Jun 28th 2016, 02:20 AM
I am concerned by the inferences from some believers that their salvation is somewhat "sealed and protected" because of grace despite their sins. This assumption to my understanding is erroneous and misleading. I have searched the scriptures diligently and found that grace which is given to liberate us from sin can only do so if we do not on our own accord enslave ourselves with sin (Gal 5:1). I, therefore, came to the following conclusions:

1. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence.
2. Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.
3. Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.
4. Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
5. Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
6. Grace cannot force obedience.
7. Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

The above highlights the perils of backsliding and v-6 particularly points to its distasteful nature before God. Is there anyone who believes that a Christian who dies while they have backslid will still be saved by grace?


I'm scratching my head, wondering how you define God's grace?

Blessings,
RW

chad
Jun 28th 2016, 04:57 AM
Imo, I see a lot of different things (atonement, repentance, intercession, freewill, obedience, sinless perfection ) attributed to the meaning of the word grace.

If you could define what you understand by the word grace, that would be be helpful.



I am concerned by the inferences from some believers that their salvation is somewhat "sealed and protected" because of grace despite their sins. This assumption to my understanding is erroneous and misleading. I have searched the scriptures diligently and found that grace which is given to liberate us from sin can only do so if we do not on our own accord enslave ourselves with sin (Gal 5:1). I, therefore, came to the following conclusions:

1. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence.
2. Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.
3. Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.
4. Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
5. Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
6. Grace cannot force obedience.
7. Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

The above highlights the perils of backsliding and v-6 particularly points to its distasteful nature before God. Is there anyone who believes that a Christian who dies while they have backslid will still be saved by grace?

stephen guidry
Jun 28th 2016, 12:00 PM
I do not know if this is a Grace vs. Works thread or a Once Saved Always Saved vs. Free Will thread, or a combination of both?

Eyelog
Jun 28th 2016, 12:46 PM
The sense of grace that matters the most to salvation is that

what we are or have done in this life, let alone do in the future, will not bear on receiving 'Heaven' instead of Hell.



We will never be good enough to avoid Hell and go to Heaven, because

(1) more than we can ever be or do is expected of us, but

(2) if we let God be our righteousness, through the atoning work of Christ, "that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21), then we will be treated as righteous enough to gain eternal life.



The key to the question of how far grace goes to save can be answered this way:


"Letting God be our righteousness" involves signing up for his program and staying part of his program.


Be careful, then, how we define what His program is and what one must do to remain a part of it.

divaD
Jun 28th 2016, 02:13 PM
I do not know if this is a Grace vs. Works thread or a Once Saved Always Saved vs. Free Will thread, or a combination of both?

Let's consider Noah, the ark, and the flood.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Let's assume for a moment that Noah got bored with building the ark and just didn't want to finish it. When the rains come will Noah still be saved since Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD? The point being, was grace all by itself apart from any works, works in this case equaling building the ark, going to save Noah when the floods came and that he never finished building the ark? And what about faith? Would faith alone save him even though he didn't finish the ark? 3 things here then, the grace of God, faith in God that God would spare him, and works in relation to the building of the ark. Now consider the following.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Had not Noah finished the ark before the floods came, and though he had faith but lacked works because he refused to finish building the ark, wouldn't that have made him exactly what James 2:20 indicates, dead?

Trivalee
Jun 28th 2016, 02:21 PM
If salvation can be lost then I'm going to hell, no question. Adam and Eve fell after just one sin. I can't even hope to be remotely perfect for the rest of my life. But I don't believe it can be lost given that our reconciliation came while we were still enemies of God. We were not saved because we chose to be righteous - so I don't see why choosing to be righteous is a requirement to remain saved. Forgiveness is not given as a result of our good behavior; repentance is evidence of having already been saved.

I'm open to other ideas, but the message of conditional forgiveness is one of hopelessness. It requires we who cannot swim to save ourselves from drowning, as opposed to the gospel I was saved by which teaches that God reaches in the water and pulls us out when we slip - like Peter - if we are His children. We are only reborn once. But I would say that if salvation can be lost, then at this point it can never be regained per your interpretation of Hebrews 6.

Paul asked shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (Rom 6:1). The premise that once we are in Christ our salvation is "protected and sealed" irrespective of how we live our lives going forward is unsupported by scripture. There is a difference between the ungodly living in sin because they don't know any better, than the believer who willfully sins and believes his standing by grace with God remains unaffected. Hebrews 6:4-6 as mentioned earlier specifically addressed backsliding Christians. Jesus also remarked as follows: Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

I am mindful that no one lives without sin, this is the reason we must confess them before God and plead for forgiveness, presumptuous and besetting sins and all. A friend once said to me that he prefers to live life believing that there is God and die and find there is no God than to go through life believing there is no God and die and find there is God after all. My personal view is to believe that I may lose my salvation if I do not live a worthy life than to live as I please confident that I am saved, only to die and find out I've lost my salvation.

Consider this: Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

mailmandan
Jun 28th 2016, 02:42 PM
Paul asked shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (Rom 6:1). The premise that once we are in Christ our salvation is "protected and sealed" irrespective of how we live our lives going forward is unsupported by scripture. There is a difference between the ungodly living in sin because they don't know any better, than the believer who willfully sins and believes his standing by grace with God remains unaffected. In Hebrews 10:26, to "willfully sin" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).


Hebrews 6:4-6 as mentioned earlier specifically addressed backsliding Christians. I've heard three different interpretations to this passage. Besides the lost salvation view, another view suggests those who fell away were not truly saved and a third view is a hypothetical situation. If you read on in verses 7-9: 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. 9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.


Jesus also remarked as follows: Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Not fit for membership or ("service" - NIV) in the kingdom of God?


I am mindful that no one lives without sin, this is the reason we must confess them before God and plead for forgiveness, presumptuous and besetting sins and all. In 1 John 1:9, do you believe that John is focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain saved (what if we forget one?) or does John have in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? *Notice that verse 8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Verse 10 says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." In contrast to if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


A friend once said to me that he prefers to live life believing that there is God and die and find there is no God than to go through life believing there is no God and die and find there is God after all. My personal view is to believe that I may lose my salvation if I do not live a worthy life than to live as I please confident that I am saved, only to die and find out I've lost my salvation. Do you view losing salvation as someone walking across a tight rope in which suddenly they can fall off or someone walking down a road with two high walls on each side of the road in which the person is secure, but is still able to choose to climb over the wall to the other side?


Consider this: Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:29 - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? Ezekiel 33:13, When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? “If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 - “For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

Trivalee
Jun 28th 2016, 02:51 PM
I don't like the term "lost" or "lose" when it comes to salvation. It's not like you can accidentally drop it somewhere or not be able to find it again now is it?

No, it takes a conscious, willful turning away from God/Christ. You have to willfully decide to stop listening to and being convicted by the Holy Spirit. There is a huge difference between struggling with sin, being sorrowful over it and prayerfully/fearfully asking God to give you strength, increase your faith and see you through even though you are not worthy and...

just doing what you want to do and not caring. Just shrugging your struggles away and not worrying about it because..."Hey, I'm saved! Obey? I believe and that's enough."

It goes beyond belief and it is faith by faith we grow. Peter heard the cock crow three times just as Jesus told him he would. Remember what Jesus named Simon -Peter ( Rock) and that He would would build His church upon him.
That didn't mean Simon/Peter the person but upon His faith, belief and understanding that God had given Him. Peter denied Christ not once but three times and still, he repented, asked for forgiveness and was shown mercy. He didn't dwell on it overlong instead he continued to persevere and do God work and obey.

Even the apostles who walked with Christ in the flesh sinned from time to time. Don't forget that. Paul said that he himself sinned from time to time even though he -as we should- hated sin.

No, we do not "lose" our salvation. We have to willfully give it up. An yes, grace covers a multitude of sins. God cares far more about our hearts and minds than if we slip from time to time.
He knows that we will slip and He loves us anyway. Do we love Him? That's the important question right there.

If we could "lose" our salvation so easily I'd be forever dammed many, many times over.

I pointed out that backsliding or falling away without repentance will cause one to lose their salvation. You mentioned a "conscious, willful turning away from Christ" and I share the same view. But it takes a heart still in Christ to be penitent after sin. The Apostles and all in Christ struggle with sin all the time, the idea is to strive to live above sin but when it happens, recognise it and repent.

There is another side to "willfully giving it up" because some may believe in a false doctrine and live their lives according to such concept. Whereas their notion contradicts scripture and is an anathema to God, they are nonetheless in the belief that are saved and covered by grace. In this scenario, the believer did not 'willfully give us it up' but grace cannot cover a lie.

BrianW
Jun 28th 2016, 03:06 PM
I agree....with a caveat. A believer is to study and make sure he knows God's will. There shouldn't be any "I didn't know" revelations when one has every access to a Bible and the time to read it, study it, pray on it and listen as close as he/She can to the Holy Spirit for guidance and conviction.

It could be different if someone lives in a country where just being caught with a Bible gets you an instant death sentence. It could be different when all one has is the gospel message that he heard, believed and through the grace of God became born again.

God is more concerned with our hearts and love than He is any kind of paint by numbers action plan.

But - for example- anyone in America or the UK ( again...just an example) has no such excuse. If they don't know they don't want to know and they have made a willful decision. God is to come 1st in our life before anyone or anything else.

Grace can cover a multitude of sins, yes. But a heart and mind that doesn't put God 1st and foremost is a big problem.

Trivalee
Jun 28th 2016, 03:38 PM
Can you perhaps put Scripture next to each point to confirm it?


1. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence. 2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2.Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

3.Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.


4.Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


5.Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


6.Grace cannot force obedience.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


7. Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

keck553
Jun 28th 2016, 04:46 PM
I do not know if this is a Grace vs. Works thread or a Once Saved Always Saved vs. Free Will thread, or a combination of both?

I think Paul makes it pretty clear in Galations that anyone who puts their (or returns to) hopes in their own works of the law as a path to salvation by default rejects God's Grace, which is given unconditionally to those who have faith in Jesus Christ and His atonement.

Aviyah
Jun 28th 2016, 04:55 PM
Paul asked shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (Rom 6:1).

Continue in the chapter and he says this:

For if we have been united with him in a death like his [past, completed event], we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified [past, completed event] with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. (6:5-11)

I don't see room in here for it to be a repeatable experience, and Hebrews seems to reinforce this fact. The new covenant is not a system in which sacrifice is repeated. Therefore, we are either saved and forgiven - dead to sin and alive to God forever - or else our old selves are resurrected and the new self perishes permanently. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. So since Christ has only died once and for all, then we cannot be forgiven, then dead again, and "re-forgiven." It's over.


My personal view is to believe that I may lose my salvation if I do not live a worthy life than to live as I please confident that I am saved, only to die and find out I've lost my salvation.

Fair enough, but that is like living under an imaginary guillotine when we have been told many times that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, our old self is dead forever, and we have been reborn. But hey, if you are able to live a worthy life to earn God's forgiveness, then more power to you. For me it isn't a matter of being surprised when I find out I'm not saved. I literally have no other hope except for what I have heard and believed, because I am not able to be perfect and avoid the need for a second sacrifice that will never happen. I need God to follow through on His promises; there is nothing else I can rely on.


Consider this: Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

And that is why Christ was our substitute, paying this price in our stead - unless I have been taught incorrectly. There are capital offenses all throughout the OT and threats of consequences for sin. But isn't that why Christ came in the first place, to save us from this and be punished instead? So now God views us as if we were the ones who lived perfectly because of what His Son accomplished. Our sins have been removed. The joy of this should motivate us to live in godliness, not because we can add to the cross or earn salvation, but because that is what our new self desires to do - out of love, not obligation or fear or more laws.

Again, if you want to say that our sins after being forgiven can be re-imputed, kill our new selves, and resurrect the old self... then "there remains no more sacrifice for sins" and therefore, no more forgiveness. Christ will not be crucified again.

chad
Jun 28th 2016, 08:54 PM
In Pauls letter to Timothy, he writes:

(1 Tim 4:1 KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

(1 Tim 4:2 KJV) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Depart G868. aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from G575 and G2476; to remove, i.e. (act.) instigate to revolt.; usually (reflex.) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.


Imo, this is a willful decision to depart from the faith to follow after seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. If you depart from Christ and the teachings of Christ, then you choose not to abide in Christ. John records the words of Christ, his will is that we remain in him and do not depart from the faith.


(John 15:1 KJV) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

(John 15:2 KJV) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

(John 15:3 KJV) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

(John 15:4 KJV) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

(John 15:5 KJV) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

(John 15:6 KJV) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

(John 15:7 KJV) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

little watchman
Jun 28th 2016, 09:04 PM
Continue in the chapter and he says this ...

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)

In Romans Paul makes some strong statements such as ”And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin...” (Romans 8:10) . But if we have already died, why do we have to remind ourselves of it, as Paul says ”recon yourselves to be dead to sin...” (Romans 6:11) This is a case of already-not-yet, just as the Kingdom of God is already here and yet not consummated until the eschaton. We have died with Christ in baptism, yet we must continually die to the flesh in order to live.

The big idea we need to keep in mind in order not to get swept into one spiritual ditch or the other is that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ love us. What does love do? A righteous lover keeps no record of wrongs, no list of infractions, as long as you are genuinely sorry for not listening to him and going your own way. Our bodies are weak and there are many things we don't know, so we are vulnerable to listening to the wrong voice, the one that tells us to follow our own path because God is too weak, or doesn't care, or isn't paying attention. Satan tempts us to no longer trust God and therefore no longer love Him, even while He still loves us and longs to see that trust restored. He is patient and longsuffering, but He will not wait forever, as it is written, ”I gave her time to repent of her sexual peversion, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent of their deeds.” (Revelation 2:21-22) This was written to the Church.

”I am he who searches the inner thoughts and hearts” (Revelation 2:23). Amen. If our flesh is occasionally weak yet our heart is repentant, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrightousness. But if we stubbornly refuse, it doesn't matter what our confession was in the past. Marriage is more than just a contract that we signed, but an ongoing relationship that requires trust (faith).

Aviyah
Jun 28th 2016, 09:47 PM
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)

I don't like looking at just one verse. I'll quote more of the chapter this is taken from:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (8:1-4)

Who "walks not according to the flesh?" Those for whom there is "no condemnation" and who have been "set free." It is understood that if you have been saved into Christ, then you are in the Spirit. Further confirmation:

Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (8:8-11)

By looking at just one verse you remove the context where it is stated that if you are saved then you are already in the Spirit. It isn't something we are working towards. References to those who are "in the flesh" cannot be speaking of those who "belong to Him." So "if you live according to the flesh" is speaking generally - not as directly applicable to those "who are not in the flesh but in the Spirit." And we see that those who are "in the Spirit" are all the ones who are saved, not a special class of saved individuals who are more holy than others. And so, all of the promises which apply to those whom the Spirit dwells in are not earned - particularly "you will live."


This is a case of already-not-yet

I'm sorry this phrase makes no sense and seems like mental gymnastics for something which reads to me as very straight-forward.

We are saved by Christ (Ro 8:1). Therefore, we are in the Spirit and dead to sin (Ro 6:11, 8:9). Therefore, we will live (Ro 8:13).

There's no caveat that says, "Well, not really... technically... in theory."

stephen guidry
Jun 28th 2016, 09:54 PM
Let's consider Noah, the ark, and the flood.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Let's assume for a moment that Noah got bored with building the ark and just didn't want to finish it. When the rains come will Noah still be saved since Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD? The point being, was grace all by itself apart from any works, works in this case equaling building the ark, going to save Noah when the floods came and that he never finished building the ark? And what about faith? Would faith alone save him even though he didn't finish the ark? 3 things here then, the grace of God, faith in God that God would spare him, and works in relation to the building of the ark. Now consider the following.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Had not Noah finished the ark before the floods came, and though he had faith but lacked works because he refused to finish building the ark, wouldn't that have made him exactly what James 2:20 indicates, dead?

I thank you for your comment, but to be clear, I was wondering if the person who started the thread would be more specific as to their intent.

As for Noah, or any other person is concerned, salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Works are a fruit of a persons salvation, not a requirement for salvation as I understand Scripture. God has a purpose for all of us, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, we are endowed with the ability to fulfill Gods purpose for us. These works we do for Him are not to achieve salvation, but to fulfill His purpose for us. They are the fruit we bear.

stephen guidry
Jun 28th 2016, 10:00 PM
I think Paul makes it pretty clear in Galations that anyone who puts their (or returns to) hopes in their own works of the law as a path to salvation by default rejects God's Grace, which is given unconditionally to those who have faith in Jesus Christ and His atonement.

I think Jesus made it fairly clear throughout His Gospel how we are saved as well. I was thinking about this last night, and thought of when Jesus spoke of "...standing at the door..." God wants to give to all mankind His saving grace, and Jesus stands at the door (our hearts) and knocks. The "door" is "belief", and the "doorknob" is "faith." Through faith, we open the door of belief and, when we do, Gods wonderous saving grace comes flooding in. Not a perfect analogy, just one I was thinking of.

Works, which we were created for, are a fruit of our salvation, as He has "purposed" us for good works.

mailmandan
Jun 28th 2016, 10:04 PM
Let's consider Noah, the ark, and the flood.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Let's assume for a moment that Noah got bored with building the ark and just didn't want to finish it. When the rains come will Noah still be saved since Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD? The point being, was grace all by itself apart from any works, works in this case equaling building the ark, going to save Noah when the floods came and that he never finished building the ark? And what about faith? Would faith alone save him even though he didn't finish the ark? 3 things here then, the grace of God, faith in God that God would spare him, and works in relation to the building of the ark. Now consider the following.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Had not Noah finished the ark before the floods came, and though he had faith but lacked works because he refused to finish building the ark, wouldn't that have made him exactly what James 2:20 indicates, dead? Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. If Noah would have refused to finish building the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but that was not the case. When God tells you that He is going to flood the world and everyone is going to die unless you build an ark to save you from drowning, then if you believe Him you will finish the ark. Building the ark demonstrated Noah's faith and saved him and his family from drowning.

Trivalee
Jun 28th 2016, 10:17 PM
Continue in the chapter and he says this:

For if we have been united with him in a death like his [past, completed event], we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified [past, completed event] with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. (6:5-11)

I don't see room in here for it to be a repeatable experience, and Hebrews seems to reinforce this fact. The new covenant is not a system in which sacrifice is repeated. Therefore, we are either saved and forgiven - dead to sin and alive to God forever - or else our old selves are resurrected and the new self perishes permanently. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. So since Christ has only died once and for all, then we cannot be forgiven, then dead again, and "re-forgiven." It's over.



Fair enough, but that is like living under an imaginary guillotine when we have been told many times that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, our old self is dead forever, and we have been reborn. But hey, if you are able to live a worthy life to earn God's forgiveness, then more power to you. For me it isn't a matter of being surprised when I find out I'm not saved. I literally have no other hope except for what I have heard and believed, because I am not able to be perfect and avoid the need for a second sacrifice that will never happen. I need God to follow through on His promises; there is nothing else I can rely on.



And that is why Christ was our substitute, paying this price in our stead - unless I have been taught incorrectly. There are capital offenses all throughout the OT and threats of consequences for sin. But isn't that why Christ came in the first place, to save us from this and be punished instead? So now God views us as if we were the ones who lived perfectly because of what His Son accomplished. Our sins have been removed. The joy of this should motivate us to live in godliness, not because we can add to the cross or earn salvation, but because that is what our new self desires to do - out of love, not obligation or fear or more laws.

Again, if you want to say that our sins after being forgiven can be re-imputed, kill our new selves, and resurrect the old self... then "there remains no more sacrifice for sins" and therefore, no more forgiveness. Christ will not be crucified again.

The point I have made repeatedly is that grace should not be taken as a "get out of jail free card" to live as we please. Indeed when we come to Christ in faith, our old self-dies and we are no longer enslaved to sin. Paul continued that we should "consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus" but is this not only when we through his Spirit live in righteousness, abhorring sin? Not that we are not susceptible to fall now and again, but to repent sincerely when we fall?

I am particularly uncomfortable with the notion that grace has sealed up our salvation forever, irrespective of how we live thereafter. We see all the immorality that goes on in the body of Christ, sometimes from those on the pulpit to the members of the congregation. Should we turn a blind eye and not be concerned because grace through Christ' death and redemption has wiped away our sins forever?

My view is not holy writ, I am just pointing out that grace may not save those who mock God's gift and take it for granted. One might argue that those who sin continually never really believed or were never in Christ, but that is not true. For some were at some point on fire for Christ and yet, somewhere along the line they changed. Not that they left the church, they still very much attend church and follow up on church programmes. We also see some pastors whose initial target is to win souls for God, yet some years into their ministry they seem to lose track and focus more on materialism.

little watchman
Jun 28th 2016, 10:28 PM
And so, all of the promises which apply to those whom the Spirit dwells in are not earned - particularly "you will live."

Yes, the grace of God is freely given. It is not earned by works, and it is not earned by keeping the law. Those who see God's favor as something to be earned don't understand the love of God. A wife doesn't earn her husband's name or his wealth; it's freely given. That is, unless she persists in sleeping around and giving away the gifts to her lovers.

As for Paul's argument in Romans, there is contingent language throughout:

therefore do not let sin reign 6:12
reckon yourselves dead 6:11
present yourselves as slaves 6:19
those who do not walk according to the flesh 8:1 8:4
if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you 8:9
if you put to death the deed of the flesh 8:13
led by the Spirit of God 8:14
if we suffer with him 8:17

Most (but not all) of these contingencies pertain to ongoing action, not something that happened in the past.

If we were to follow the logic that all who have confessed Christ in the past are now perfectly clean by the Spirit, then you would have a problem with the many examples of those who at one point confessed Christ and were baptized but now reject Christ and live only for themselves. Either they are therefore saved regardless of their present lack of trust in God, or they never made a proper confession of faith. The latter option is popular, but doesn't have a lot of evidence for it, since a lot of pastors' kids made what seemed to be genuine confessions at the time, and now they oppose the faith.

That logic also does not explain the need for believers to continually confess sin, for example in 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." And it doesn't explain the demonization (not possession) of believers.

Aviyah
Jun 28th 2016, 10:46 PM
The point I have made repeatedly is that grace should not be taken as a "get out of jail free card" to live as we please.

But grace is a get out of jail free card. We did not earn that freedom. And like Paul said to the question of if we should sin as much as we want as a result - "By no means." It isn't that we don't abuse God's grace because it would forfeit our salvation; we don't abuse God's grace because we are new creatures and His Spirit dwells in us. We try to grow in godliness because we want to, not because we are threatened.


I am particularly uncomfortable with the notion that grace has sealed up our salvation forever, irrespective of how we live thereafter. We see all the immorality that goes on in the body of Christ, sometimes from those on the pulpit to the members of the congregation. Should we turn a blind eye and not be concerned because grace through Christ' death and redemption has wiped away our sins forever?

Of course not. Why would you allow "sin to abound" simply because God has saved us from the ultimate punishment? Is there not still work to be done in this life, and more growth to be experienced? Do you not want to be more like Christ by your new nature? If salvation was guaranteed are you going to start sinning as much as possible and stop speaking out against the sins others struggle with? There is no need to threaten each other with the hell we have escaped (if we are in Christ), merely remind each other of the sacrifice God made. If anyone has no change of heart as a result of their salvation, then they were not saved in the first place because it is evidenced that they were not reborn and the Holy Sprit did not convict them.


For some were at some point on fire for Christ and yet, somewhere along the line they changed. Not that they left the church, they still very much attend church and follow up on church programmes. We also see some pastors whose initial target is to win souls for God, yet some years into their ministry they seem to lose track and focus more on materialism.

So they are going to hell and God revoked their forgiveness? I think this is a question of what rewards are stored up and what remains from what we have done when the fire comes. Those Christians who were passionate and became discouraged will still be saved because that is promised by God, but like in 1 Cor. 3:15, it will be an experience of having escaped with just the clothes on their back. Others will escape with more works preserved because they were eternal in nature. It seems like your concern is more along the lines of, "Why do they get the same thing as someone who lives a perfect life?" And I don't think this is the case. Everyone born of God will be saved, but not everyone will have the same rewards. Forgiveness is not a reward, and can never be.

Furthermore, I don't think you've addressed my point about "there remains no more sacrifice for sins" if forgiveness has been lost. It would be permanent if it were possible; not a repeatable process like it was in the Old Testament sacrificial system.

chad
Jun 28th 2016, 10:53 PM
Both Paul and Peter writes, encouraging Christians to live in freedom, but not to use our freedom to cover-up sin, rather live as servants of Christ.


(Gal 5:13 NIV) You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.

(Gal 5:14 NIV) The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

(Gal 5:15 NIV) If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

(Gal 5:16 NIV) So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

(Gal 5:17 NIV) For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

(Gal 5:18 NIV) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

(Gal 5:19 NIV) The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

(Gal 5:20 NIV) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

(Gal 5:21 NIV) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

(Gal 5:22 NIV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

(Gal 5:23 NIV) gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

(Gal 5:24 NIV) Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

(Gal 5:25 NIV) Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

(Gal 5:26 NIV) Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.



(1 Pet 2:16 NIV) Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.



And in the book of James it writes ...

(James 2:12 NIV) Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,

(James 2:13 NIV) because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

chad
Jun 29th 2016, 12:26 AM
And John also writes ... encouraging Christians ...

(1 John 1:7 KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

(1 John 1:8 KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1 John 1:9 KJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1 John 1:10 KJV) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(1 John 2:1 KJV) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

(1 John 2:2 KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

(1 John 2:3 KJV) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

(1 John 2:5 KJV) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

(1 John 2:6 KJV) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

keck553
Jun 29th 2016, 05:09 AM
I think Jesus made it fairly clear throughout His Gospel how we are saved as well. I was thinking about this last night, and thought of when Jesus spoke of "...standing at the door..." God wants to give to all mankind His saving grace, and Jesus stands at the door (our hearts) and knocks. The "door" is "belief", and the "doorknob" is "faith." Through faith, we open the door of belief and, when we do, Gods wonderous saving grace comes flooding in. Not a perfect analogy, just one I was thinking of.

Works, which we were created for, are a fruit of our salvation, as He has "purposed" us for good works.

Every time I think about that verse I think about this -

One of the words used in the OT for "serve" is interesting. The Hebrew word for “serve” is "avad". Pictographically (ancient Hebrew is a pictographic language), it shows us a concept that you can know a house by watching the door. Doors act as “service outlets and inlets” for a home. Observe who goes in, observe what is carried in, and you will know the house and the occupants.

With Jesus standing at the door, we know the house is one filled with His sheep.

chad
Jun 29th 2016, 07:47 AM
Imo,

Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence.
Agreed. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence if unbelievers continue to life their lives without repentance of sin.

Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.
Agreed. The blood of Christ and his sacrifice on the cross atones for sin. Only through repentance and belief in Christ Jesus can a person be saved.

Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.
Agreed. If an unbeliever does not confess their sins, they will not be forgiven.

Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
Agreed. Grace cannot. But forgiveness can. Unbelievers are different than believers. Scripture writes that Jesus intercedes on behalf of believers.

Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
Agreed. Grace does not bind a mans freewill. A person can exercise freewill to sin or not.

Grace cannot force obedience.
Agreed. Obedience comes from obeying. Grace cannot force this.

Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.
Does scripture write that ‘Grace’ guarantees eternal life to those who live righteously or is it something else that guarantees eternal life?




I am concerned by the inferences from some believers that their salvation is somewhat "sealed and protected" because of grace despite their sins. This assumption to my understanding is erroneous and misleading. I have searched the scriptures diligently and found that grace which is given to liberate us from sin can only do so if we do not on our own accord enslave ourselves with sin (Gal 5:1). I, therefore, came to the following conclusions:

1. Grace cannot nullify moral degradation and decadence.
2. Grace cannot save a man if he sins and fails to repent.
3. Grace will not allow God to forgive unconfessed sin.
4. Grace cannot make the sin of the saved any less than those of the unsaved.
5. Grace cannot bind a man should he exercise his free will to sin.
6. Grace cannot force obedience.
7. Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to anyone who refuses to live in righteousness.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

The above highlights the perils of backsliding and v-6 particularly points to its distasteful nature before God. Is there anyone who believes that a Christian who dies while they have backslid will still be saved by grace?

Trivalee
Jun 30th 2016, 01:45 PM
I thank you for your comment, but to be clear, I was wondering if the person who started the thread would be more specific as to their intent.

I a sorry if the initial OP is not clear enough: I pointed out that although we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, however, it is wrong to believe that because grace abounds, our salvation is, therefore "sealed and protected" forever irrespective of how we live our lives going forward. I also recognise that being mortal we are all susceptible to sin now and then, but we must ask for forgiveness and seek through His Spirit to live to please God.

What I am concerned about is the notion that people have projected that grace once received cannot be lost despite what do.

Trivalee
Jun 30th 2016, 04:38 PM
But grace is a get out of jail free card. We did not earn that freedom. And like Paul said to the question of if we should sin as much as we want as a result - "By no means." It isn't that we don't abuse God's grace because it would forfeit our salvation; we don't abuse God's grace because we are new creatures and His Spirit dwells in us. We try to grow in godliness because we want to, not because we are threatened. Of course not. Why would you allow "sin to abound" simply because God has saved us from the ultimate punishment? Is there not still work to be done in this life, and more growth to be experienced? Do you not want to be more like Christ by your new nature? If salvation was guaranteed are you going to start sinning as much as possible and stop speaking out against the sins others struggle with? There is no need to threaten each other with the hell we have escaped (if we are in Christ), merely remind each other of the sacrifice God made. If anyone has no change of heart as a result of their salvation, then they were not saved in the first place because it is evidenced that they were not reborn and the Holy Sprit did not convict them.

The presumption of grace as insurance against sin lies at the heart of my argument. I am speaking in broad terms with emphasis on those relying on Christ' enduring grace to live ungodly lives. Your argument I suspect would seem to harden and encourage some in their reprobate lifestyle on the premise that God's forgiveness is infinite. Again, the case that those embracing such lifestyle never were saved is not true. The journey of a believer is a long long walk from the day Christ came into their lives. Scripture confirms that many will fall along the way and may not rise up again; were they not saved initially? I don't think so. I believe they were saved alright but allowed the pleasures of the world to sidetrack them from the journeying on the right part.


So they are going to hell and God revoked their forgiveness? I think this is a question of what rewards are stored up and what remains from what we have done when the fire comes. Those Christians who were passionate and became discouraged will still be saved because that is promised by God, but like in 1 Cor. 3:15, it will be an experience of having escaped with just the clothes on their back. Others will escape with more works preserved because they were eternal in nature. It seems like your concern is more along the lines of, "Why do they get the same thing as someone who lives a perfect life?" And I don't think this is the case. Everyone born of God will be saved, but not everyone will have the same rewards. Forgiveness is not a reward, and can never be.

Furthermore, I don't think you've addressed my point about "there remains no more sacrifice for sins" if forgiveness has been lost. It would be permanent if it were possible; not a repeatable process like it was in the Old Testament sacrificial system.

You overlooked the context of 1 Cor 3 :13-15. For those who will be saved with no more than "the clothes on their back" preached Christ's true doctrine nonetheless, albeit with strife, etc. No case can, however, be made to justify pastors and ministers who intentionally deviate from the true doctrine in favour of empty words that are pleasing to the hearers but lack scriptural foundation. Often these ministers lead congregations of several thousand, they refrain from preaching the life-giving truth for fear of losing membership which equals to loss of 'money' to the church.

I have searched your previous posts but couldn't find your query re "there remains no more sacrifice for sin". Forgiveness can be lost, IMO. The saved living in Christ will continue to face temptation from Satan. Paul argued that the flesh and spirit are in a constant struggle:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

So what happens when the saved continuously give in to the flesh? I interpret "no more sacrifice for sins" to mean that in as much as Christ' love, mercy and forgiveness is infinite and enduring, however, there would come a time when the Lord will turn his back on that soul if it continues to turn back to wallow in the mire of sin. Peter warned unambiguously of this danger.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The verses 18-19 refer to these ministers who don't teach the truth; v-20 warns of the fate of not only the preachers but their hearers who were saved but allowed themselves to be corrupted by false doctrine. Peter said that their latter will be "worse than their beginning" i.e. before they came to Christ. Does Peter's warning not corroborate the under listed texts?

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

In conclusion, I believe that God's free gift of grace can only endure for those who cherish and nurture it. But for those who willingly throw it back on God's face, if they didn't repent and died in their sin grace will not save them.

chad
Jun 30th 2016, 11:36 PM
The bible writes about those who use Grace as an excuse for a license to sin. In Revelation, Jezebel is mentioned (rev 2:20) as well as the Nicoliatanes (Rev 2:15) and also those who follow the way of Baalam (Rev 2:14). Imo, they are those which use their freedom to indulge in sin.

Peter also writes about false teachers (2 Peter chapter 2; Jude Chapter 1) who follow the way of Balaam, the son of Boer – who deliberately live after the lust of uncleanness (KJV).

The NT in those verses writes there will be judgment for those people.


Then on the other side of the grace argument are those that believe once a person is saved, they should no longer sin, and if they sin and do not attain sinless perfection, then they lose their salvation.

However James writes in James 3:2, who is able to not offend in this world and keep his whole body in check. He is the perfect man. Imo - only Christ Jesus was able to do this.


Then there are those that believe, we can no longer sin because they have said the sinners prayer and therefore they are longer able to sin.

However John writes

1:John1:8-9 If we say we have no sin, then we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

stephen guidry
Jul 1st 2016, 11:44 AM
I a sorry if the initial OP is not clear enough: I pointed out that although we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, however, it is wrong to believe that because grace abounds, our salvation is, therefore "sealed and protected" forever irrespective of how we live our lives going forward. I also recognise that being mortal we are all susceptible to sin now and then, but we must ask for forgiveness and seek through His Spirit to live to please God.

What I am concerned about is the notion that people have projected that grace once received cannot be lost despite what do.

Thank you for the clarification.

Trivalee
Jul 1st 2016, 11:45 AM
The bible writes about those who use Grace as an excuse for a license to sin. In Revelation, Jezebel is mentioned (rev 2:20) as well as the Nicoliatanes (Rev 2:15) and also those who follow the way of Baalam (Rev 2:14). Imo, they are those which use their freedom to indulge in sin.

Peter also writes about false teachers (2 Peter chapter 2; Jude Chapter 1) who follow the way of Balaam, the son of Boer – who deliberately live after the lust of uncleanness (KJV).

The NT in those verses writes there will be judgment for those people.


Then on the other side of the grace argument are those that believe once a person is saved, they should no longer sin, and if they sin and do not attain sinless perfection, then they lose their salvation.

However James writes in James 3:2, who is able to not offend in this world and keep his whole body in check. He is the perfect man. Imo - only Christ Jesus was able to do this.


Then there are those that believe, we can no longer sin because they have said the sinners prayer and therefore they are longer able to sin.

However John writes

1:John1:8-9 If we say we have no sin, then we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You have presented different scriptural views of the argument, it would have been nice if you had concluded by taking a stand. Would you care to say where you stand on the issue?

chad
Jul 1st 2016, 09:20 PM
I believe that the final judgment of who will be saved and lost will be determined by Christ Jesus on the day of judgment.

God only knows the heart and intent of a man and it must break Gods heart to see those who have asked for forgiveness and repentance to go astray or depart from the gift of salvation and turn to the world or false Gods.

Gods grace is amazing, when you read in revelation of Jezebel, the Nicoliatians and those who follow the way of Balaam - Jesus, the son of God, our high priest and the son of God seat at the right hand - calls for them to repent, even though they are living in error and practicing deeds which Jesus himself hates.

I believe that Jesus who is our high priest who intercedes for believers on our behalf in regards to sin. We as Christians should be trying to live by the spirit of God instead of the flesh as the NT encourages us to do.

I do not believe in sinless perfection, that once we repent of our sin, we should obtain sinless perfection, by no longer sinning and if we do - a person looses their salvation.

I do not believe that we can no longer sin (cause offense) after we have said the sinners prayer. Counting ourselves dead to sin, is different than not being able to sin, while we are still here in earth.

If we sin, the right thing to do imo, is to repent and turn from our errors, even though we have said the sinners prayer.



You have presented different scriptural views of the argument, it would have been nice if you had concluded by taking a stand. Would you care to say where you stand on the issue?

rom826
Jul 2nd 2016, 03:01 PM
How far can grace save? It saves to the uttermost and it is the ONLY way any human being gets saved. It seems to me that many want to repudiate God's grace so that they can boast of the "good" works. Yet it only by God's grace that someone gets saved. At the end nobody is going to be able to say, "I deserve it Lord because of my good works."

Trivalee
Jul 2nd 2016, 03:39 PM
How far can grace save? It saves to the uttermost and it is the ONLY way any human being gets saved. It seems to me that many want to repudiate God's grace so that they can boast of the "good" works. Yet it only by God's grace that someone gets saved. At the end nobody is going to be able to say, "I deserve it Lord because of my good works."

Either you have not bothered the read through the discussions or you failed to understand what is said. No one has ever hinted in this discussion that they rely on their "good works" for grace. The fact that grace saves is not in doubt, but sadly, you conveniently overlooked the many texts in scripture warning those who throw this amazing gift that God gave mankind back into His face.

It is dangerous views like this that encourage and harden some in their lifestyles on the belief that it is OK to live immoral lives because one saved by grace, salvation will never be lost.