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boangry
Sep 23rd 2016, 03:00 AM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, ďAnanias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.Ē

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?

What do people think...

Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Some verses for consideration...

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the Devil for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. For this reason the Son of Man was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil

Contrasted by the following verse

.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God.

Summarised by

.10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.11. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12. not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brotherís righteous.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And hopefully some will have other verses that are relevant.

RogerW
Sep 23rd 2016, 11:32 AM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, ďAnanias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.Ē

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?

What do people think...

Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Some verses for consideration...

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the Devil for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. For this reason the Son of Man was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil

Contrasted by the following verse

.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God.

Summarised by

.10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.11. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12. not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brotherís righteous.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And hopefully some will have other verses that are relevant.

Satan, as he did with Eve, may tempt man, but man sins when he is enticed into action which seeks to fulfill the lusts of his own heart. That is the nature or natural condition, of fallen mankind.

Jas*1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas*1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Blessings,
RW

David Taylor
Sep 23rd 2016, 11:39 AM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, ďAnanias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

No Satan doesn't make people lie.

People are individually responsible and condemned for their own willful sin. Satan cannot take away or own individual responsibility.
If Satan could make us sin, then sinning wouldn't be our choice, and Christ wouldn't have needed to die on the cross to redeem us from our sins.
Notice nowhere in scripture did Christ die on the cross to redeem us from Satan's sins.



What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?

When any human being lies, it is of the wickedness of their own heart.
Whether Satan tempted them to do it or not is irrelevant; it is that individual who willfully chose to sin against God.



Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Satan is a spiritual being who tempts us to serve him and his selfish desires and not the Lords.

chad
Sep 23rd 2016, 11:49 AM
> John records in John 8:43-44 Jesus saying that Satan is the father of lies.

(John 8:43 KJV) Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

(John 8:44 KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


> Imo, it is more like deception. Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan into disobeying Gods commands. Satan misused scripture to try deceive Jesus into sinning.

So In Acts 5, imo it could have been that Satan deceived Ananias by filling their heart [thoughts an feelings] to lie.

Heart G2588. kardia, kar-dee'-ah; prol. from a prim. kar (Lat. cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (fig.) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by anal.) the middle:--(+ broken-) heart (-ed).


> Imo, Satan is a real created being.

(2 Cor 11:14 KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

(Rev 12:9 KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(Rev 20:2 KJV) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

> People can lie without the influence of satan.

> There are different spirits operating in the world. The spirit of God and also the spirit of the world.

(1 Cor 2:12 KJV) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

> Some of these spiritual forces are that of Satan.

(Eph 6:12 KJV) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


(Mat 13:38 KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

(Mat 13:39 KJV) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

(Mat 13:40 KJV) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


> Imo, those in Christ are different than those in the world. Because we have the spirit of God, not the spirit of the World. Those in Christ who live life by the spirit and are led by the spirit are not conforming to the world and it's spirit but by Gods Holy spirit they are being transformed into the likeness of Christ. Imo, this is how those in Christ and follow and are led by the holy spirit, know they are not of the devil and but are God [Father, Son, Holy Spirit].


(1 Cor 2:12 KJV) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.






Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, ďAnanias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.Ē

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?

What do people think...

Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Some verses for consideration...

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the Devil for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. For this reason the Son of Man was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil

Contrasted by the following verse

.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God.

Summarised by

.10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.11. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12. not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brotherís righteous.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And hopefully some will have other verses that are relevant.

Stew Ward's Hip
Sep 23rd 2016, 12:57 PM
Satan doesn't make anyone do anything.

People sin because they like it.

keck553
Sep 23rd 2016, 01:22 PM
satan doesn't male anyone lie. But people do tend to bear the image of their master.

Slug1
Sep 23rd 2016, 03:14 PM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?


What do people think...Lying is a product of the fall and the fact that today, satan continues to tempt people. Due to our fallen nature, lying is natural because mankind became natural flesh after the first sin/became fallen. So for a child, sure... lying is a natural thing, don't have to teach anyone HOW to lie.

Mankind is given a means however to resist the flesh and resist satan, through God. God provides a means of escape from ALL temptation: 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So Ananias, as a member of the Body, did not resist, did not take the escape. He and his wife were responsible and each was held accountable for the lie.




Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Some verses for consideration...


1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the Devil for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. For this reason the Son of Man was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil

Contrasted by the following verse

.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God.

Summarised by

.10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.11. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12. not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And hopefully some will have other verses that are relevant.Sin is inspired from something, before our flesh ever came into existence. satan is the source of sin and thus, why he's illuminated as such through these verses.

Also, always remember, mankind will be in the likeness of who they serve. So if a person is not in a relationship with Christ, are in the likeness of the prince of the world, or satan. Thus why they are described as sons of, children of satan (as their father). But, once a person who's father is satan, turns to God... THEN, they are redeemed and they are in the likeness of Christ and are referred to a sons of and children of God (as their Father).

Allusion is an interesting term, scripture is specific about satan, who he is, what he does, scripture does not allude. satan is an actual created being, no allusion at all.

Trivalee
Sep 23rd 2016, 08:35 PM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, ďAnanias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.Ē

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?

What do people think...

Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Some verses for consideration...

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the Devil for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. For this reason the Son of Man was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil

Contrasted by the following verse

.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God.

Summarised by

.10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.11. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12. not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brotherís righteous.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And hopefully some will have other verses that are relevant.

The answer to your question is YES, Satan instigates us to lie.

However, just as Adam and Eve had the "free will" to say NO to Satan, so too, those who are in Christ Jesus who walk in his Spirit, have their senses exercised in free will to resist the devil. Remember that scripture says resist the devil and he will flee from you? Furthermore, the decision whether to obey or disobey Satan comes down to the struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Paul explained what many see as one of his most complex theories in the bible.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

From the above, we see that what determines whether we lie or not can be traced to who we obey more. According to v-22, if we delight more in the law of God after the inward man, then we are able to resist Satan and speak the truth , but if not, then we will be held captive by the law of sin and become his servant (v-23).

Allow me to address the point you raised about when children lie. At the age of 6, their sense of right and wrong is not yet fully developed. Consequently, they are influenced by people in their environment i.e. family, etc. For example, two 6 years old's characters (their ability to lie, curse or not, etc) will relate to their family background. Remember, Satan has no respect for age, so if a 6-year-old taught by his environment to be adept in lying, he automatically becomes a vessel (just like an adult) for Satan. The reverse is also the case for, if his background taught him to embrace a high standard of morality, the devil will find nothing in him and he will speak nothing but the truth.

chad
Sep 23rd 2016, 09:11 PM
In the book of Ephesians, Paul writes about the spirit that works in the children of disobedience.

So imo, this spirit is the powers of the air of spiritual wickedness in Eph 6:12. This may influence people to lie (through deception) for the working of this spirit, is in the children of disobedience and may cause them follow in the same ways as the devil who is the father of lies.


(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

(Eph 6:12 KJV) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

boangry
Sep 24th 2016, 12:38 AM
Satan, as he did with Eve, may tempt man, but man sins when he is enticed into action which seeks to fulfill the lusts of his own heart. That is the nature or natural condition, of fallen mankind.

Jas*1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas*1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Blessings,
RW

Hi RW, So as Satan tempted/deceived Eve he possessed a serpent and entered into dialogue with her, If he still tempts people today is it similar or how does he do it?
So are you saying? He may make us sin or he may not, and if he doesnít then because of our lusts we would sin anyway?
And then could one also say we could sin without Satan whatsoever?

boangry
Sep 24th 2016, 12:48 AM
No Satan doesn't make people lie.

People are individually responsible and condemned for their own willful sin. Satan cannot take away or own individual responsibility.
If Satan could make us sin, then sinning wouldn't be our choice, and Christ wouldn't have needed to die on the cross to redeem us from our sins.
Notice nowhere in scripture did Christ die on the cross to redeem us from Satan's sins.


When any human being lies, it is of the wickedness of their own heart.
Whether Satan tempted them to do it or not is irrelevant; it is that individual who willfully chose to sin against God.


Satan is a spiritual being who tempts us to serve him and his selfish desires and not the Lords.

Hi David it all makes sense cept I don't understand this bit
Satan is a spiritual being who tempts us to serve him and his selfish desires If you don't mind answering these or even some of the questions, or elaborate on this for this is where im trying to understand how people think.

What mechanisms does he use to tempt us to serve him?
Or how does someone know if they are being tempted by him?
What does serving him mean?
And are Satans selfish desires ruling us all or making us sin, making us rebel against God like he did or what exactly?

boangry
Sep 24th 2016, 12:50 AM
Satan doesn't make anyone do anything.

People sin because they like it.

How would you explain this to me then "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit" ?

boangry
Sep 24th 2016, 01:09 AM
Lying is a product of the fall and the fact that today, satan continues to tempt people. Due to our fallen nature, lying is natural because mankind became natural flesh after the first sin/became fallen. So for a child, sure... lying is a natural thing, don't have to teach anyone HOW to lie.

Mankind is given a means however to resist the flesh and resist satan, through God. God provides a means of escape from ALL temptation: 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So Ananias, as a member of the Body, did not resist, did not take the escape. He and his wife were responsible and each was held accountable for the lie.

Hi Slug I agree with what you say here, I like the verse from Corinthians it tells us there is no temptation for us except that which is common to man, So therefore I can conclude one or the other, that Satan personally tempts everyone to sin or that Satan is a reference to the fall and therefore does not need to tempt anyone to sin for our temptations to be common?

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man"



Sin is inspired from something, before our flesh ever came into existence. satan is the source of sin and thus, why he's illuminated as such through these verses.

Also, always remember, mankind will be in the likeness of who they serve. So if a person is not in a relationship with Christ, are in the likeness of the prince of the world, or satan. Thus why they are described as sons of, children of satan (as their father). But, once a person who's father is satan, turns to God... THEN, they are redeemed and they are in the likeness of Christ and are referred to a sons of and children of God (as their Father).

Allusion is an interesting term, scripture is specific about satan, who he is, what he does, scripture does not allude. satan is an actual created being, no allusion at all.

By allusion I mean this. off the interweb

"An allusion is when a person or author makes an indirect reference in speech, text, or song to an event or figure. Often the allusions made are to past events or figures, but sometimes allusions are made to current famous people or events.

The allusion does not give much detail about the reference-it does not describe things in detail. Rather, because these events are momentous-significant historically, culturally, or politically-the speaker or author expects that people in general would understand the allusion without explanation.

Allusions are often used within a metaphor or simile. The comparison alludes to an event or person of significance that everyone should understand."

I think the allusion is to these events the rebellion in heaven, and the garden of Eden the consequences are pointed to here. Everyone knows what Satan did so hes the perfect reference.

Another way of doing this is the same when one feels betrayed by someone and in the heat of their feelings they refer to that person as Judas.

boangry
Sep 24th 2016, 01:24 AM
In the book of Ephesians, Paul writes about the spirit that works in the children of disobedience.

So imo, this spirit is the powers of the air of spiritual wickedness in Eph 6:12. This may influence people to lie (through deception) for the working of this spirit, is in the children of disobedience and may cause them follow in the same ways as the devil who is the father of lies.


(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

(Eph 6:12 KJV) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Hi Chad I hold a slightly differing view about what the spirit is that works in the children of disobedience.
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The context of this is in time past we walked according to the world, IN the same manner or spirit as the prince of the air did, (we know he rebelled by rejecting Jesus as the Christ and King) it is this same rebellious spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, we cannot take this passage as spirit in the singular meaning Satans spirit dwells in all of us, if we did then wouldnít we have Satan as a spirit working in billions of people all around the globe at the same time, wouldnít viewing it like this mean Satan is omnipresent flying around the world putting thoughts into everyones heads at the same time.

We all have a spirit, which is mans spirit in us, If we all support the All blacks rugby team, then we all (like minded supporters) have the same team spirit, Likewise Captain Cook If we say someone has the same spirit as Cook, we donít mean Cook is in them or alive for that matter, we mean they have a sense of adventure and exploration.

So what im meaning is to have a spirit according to the prince of the power of the air, is to have a spirit of rebellion, disobedience and sin or more accurately an unrepentant spirit.

boangry
Sep 24th 2016, 01:37 AM
The answer to your question is YES, Satan instigates us to lie.

However, just as Adam and Eve had the "free will" to say NO to Satan, so too, those who are in Christ Jesus who walk in his Spirit, have their senses exercised in free will to resist the devil. Remember that scripture says resist the devil and he will flee from you? Furthermore, the decision whether to obey or disobey Satan comes down to the struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Paul explained what many see as one of his most complex theories in the bible.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

From the above, we see that what determines whether we lie or not can be traced to who we obey more. According to v-22, if we delight more in the law of God after the inward man, then we are able to resist Satan and speak the truth , but if not, then we will be held captive by the law of sin and become his servant (v-23).

Allow me to address the point you raised about when children lie. At the age of 6, their sense of right and wrong is not yet fully developed. Consequently, they are influenced by people in their environment i.e. family, etc. For example, two 6 years old's characters (their ability to lie, curse or not, etc) will relate to their family background. Remember, Satan has no respect for age, so if a 6-year-old taught by his environment to be adept in lying, he automatically becomes a vessel (just like an adult) for Satan. The reverse is also the case for, if his background taught him to embrace a high standard of morality, the devil will find nothing in him and he will speak nothing but the truth.

Hi Trivalee, Makes a lot of sense, so when you say Satan instigates us to lie, and then use romans 7 for an example of how this works which in turn shows us sin dwells in us, are you also pointing out that Satan is also a metaphor for sin?

I see us all growing up in Satans environment, like the 6yr old boy, all adept at lying etc and when we are translated out of the environment into the Lords we still have to live in Satans enviroment for a little bit unfortunately and yet growing more and more like the Lord. :-)

chad
Sep 24th 2016, 03:36 AM
'So what im meaning is to have a spirit according to the prince of the power of the air, is to have a spirit of rebellion, disobedience and sin or more accurately an unrepentant spirit'

I agree with what you have said here in that there the bible mentions of spirits : Gods holy spirit,
the spirit of Christ Jesus, Man’s spirit, the spirit of antichrist, demons and Satan.

Imo, the prince of the power of the air - likely refers to evil spirits which are under control of Satan. They work in those who are children of disobedience.

Those who worship false Gods and follow after false religions and those who reject God.


Eph 6:12 (NIV) our battle is against rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and spiritual forces in the heavenly realms.

Imo, they influence non-believers and lead them to conform to the ways of the world, rather than the ways of God by exchanging the truth of God for a lie (Rom 1:25) or suppressing the truth (Rom 1:18).


These evil spirits deceive and teach wrong things.

Of deceiving and evil spirits

(1 Tim 4:1 NIV) The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.


(Rev 16:14 NIV) They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

(Rev 18:2 NIV) With a mighty voice he shouted: "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.


Of the Anti-christ

(1 John 2:22 NIV) Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.

(1 John 4:3 NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

(2 John 1:7 NIV) Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.


Of the worship of false Gods and their practices

(Rev 9:20 NIV) The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

(Rev 9:21 NIV) Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.




Hi Chad I hold a slightly differing view about what the spirit is that works in the children of disobedience.

The context of this is in time past we walked according to the world, IN the same manner or spirit as the prince of the air did, (we know he rebelled by rejecting Jesus as the Christ and King) it is this same rebellious spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, we cannot take this passage as spirit in the singular meaning Satans spirit dwells in all of us, if we did then wouldn’t we have Satan as a spirit working in billions of people all around the globe at the same time, wouldn’t viewing it like this mean Satan is omnipresent flying around the world putting thoughts into everyones heads at the same time.

We all have a spirit, which is mans spirit in us, If we all support the All blacks rugby team, then we all (like minded supporters) have the same team spirit, Likewise Captain Cook If we say someone has the same spirit as Cook, we don’t mean Cook is in them or alive for that matter, we mean they have a sense of adventure and exploration.

So what im meaning is to have a spirit according to the prince of the power of the air, is to have a spirit of rebellion, disobedience and sin or more accurately an unrepentant spirit.

Old man
Sep 24th 2016, 04:23 AM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?

What do people think...

Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Some verses for consideration...

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the Devil for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. For this reason the Son of Man was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil

Contrasted by the following verse

.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God.

Summarised by

.10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.11. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12. not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And hopefully some will have other verses that are relevant.

The heart is an involuntary muscle meaning that it will keep beating whether we want it to or not. The jaw muscles and tongue muscle ... not so much. No one forces us to exercise our jaw and tongue muscles we do that by choice. Jesus said that it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks. And if our mouth is speaking lies then what does that say about what is in our hearts.

mailmandan
Sep 24th 2016, 11:27 AM
Satan, as he did with Eve, may tempt man, but man sins when he is enticed into action which seeks to fulfill the lusts of his own heart. That is the nature or natural condition, of fallen mankind.

Jas*1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas*1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Blessings,
RW Amen! Nobody can say, "The devil made me do it." ;) Flip Wilson theology is unbiblical.

https://drdivaphd.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/stop-handing-the-devil-tools-7-dr-diva-verdun1.jpg

Slug1
Sep 24th 2016, 01:06 PM
Hi Slug I agree with what you say here, I like the verse from Corinthians it tells us there is no temptation for us except that which is common to man, So therefore I can conclude one or the other, that Satan personally tempts everyone to sin or that Satan is a reference to the fall and therefore does not need to tempt anyone to sin for our temptations to be common?

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man"




By allusion I mean this. off the interweb

"An allusion is when a person or author makes an indirect reference in speech, text, or song to an event or figure. Often the allusions made are to past events or figures, but sometimes allusions are made to current famous people or events.

The allusion does not give much detail about the reference-it does not describe things in detail. Rather, because these events are momentous-significant historically, culturally, or politically-the speaker or author expects that people in general would understand the allusion without explanation.

Allusions are often used within a metaphor or simile. The comparison alludes to an event or person of significance that everyone should understand."

I think the allusion is to these events the rebellion in heaven, and the garden of Eden the consequences are pointed to here. Everyone knows what Satan did so hes the perfect reference.

Another way of doing this is the same when one feels betrayed by someone and in the heat of their feelings they refer to that person as Judas.All I can say concerning your second part of your response, is that the only allusion is when man says... (as has already been pointed out) "the devil made me do it."

Trivalee
Sep 24th 2016, 01:57 PM
Hi Trivalee, Makes a lot of sense, so when you say Satan instigates us to lie, and then use romans 7 for an example of how this works which in turn shows us sin dwells in us, are you also pointing out that Satan is also a metaphor for sin?

I see us all growing up in Satans environment, like the 6yr old boy, all adept at lying etc and when we are translated out of the environment into the Lords we still have to live in Satans enviroment for a little bit unfortunately and yet growing more and more like the Lord. :-)

You articulated the situation better than I;)

Yes, Satan is a metaphor for SIN. Ever wondered why some people blame Satan when caught in sin? Do you think they are lying when they blame Satan for their own actions? The answer to both questions is No, they are not lying! However, just as Judas Iscariot could not claim innocence by blaming Satan for his act of betrayal, so also every individual must also take responsibility for exercising their "free will" to sin, regardless that their sin was at the behest of Satan. Another way to look at it is like a man on a bridge and a voice in his head tells him to jump into the water below, or waiting to cross the road in heavy traffic and his head tells him to run into an oncoming truck. Both of these actions if obeyed will ultimately result in death and that's what Satan does, unremittingly goading us to sin and death. And so, just as both individuals at the bridge and on the roadside chose to ignore the voice urging them to certain death, so we must also resist the devil and he will flee from us.

Get this, just as Jesus stands at the door and knocks, (without forcing himself in) if we open unto him he will come in and sup with us (Rev 3:20), so also does Satan tempt us without actually forcing us! That is why those who eventually do his bidding like Judas cannot be exonerated.

Paul addressed your statement about us living in Satan's environment in Rom 12:2 with the warning that though we live in the world, we should not conform to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind (a change in our mindset) to live according to the will of God.

Trivalee
Sep 24th 2016, 02:02 PM
The heart is an involuntary muscle meaning that it will keep beating whether we want it to or not. The jaw muscles and tongue muscle ... not so much. No one forces us to exercise our jaw and tongue muscles we do that by choice. Jesus said that it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks. And if our mouth is speaking lies then what does that say about what is in our hearts.

The matter goes deeper than you expressed above. The question is, what made the heart to be so devious? Did God create an imperfect man? Was man i.e. his heart, evil at creation?

keck553
Sep 24th 2016, 02:39 PM
Again, a person can now CHOOSE to either be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, and as a result bear the image of their master.

RogerW
Sep 24th 2016, 04:06 PM
Again, a person can now CHOOSE to either be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, and as a result bear the image of their master.

Man will always choose that which comes natural to them, or that which is of their nature!

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 24th 2016, 04:29 PM
The matter goes deeper than you expressed above. The question is, what made the heart to be so devious? Did God create an imperfect man? Was man i.e. his heart, evil at creation?

Man, through his own free will chose to heed the voice of the serpent, so sin, and death through sin became the fate of every human being. Since then the will of man is bound by his/her greatest natural desires. Although Satan continues to deceive man, it is man themselves who naturally choose that which is most desirable to them. A&E were no different, they knew the consequences for disobedience, but hear the woman, "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." She believed the serpent rather than God when he told her she would not die, "then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil". Without Christ, the choice will always naturally be from natural man. Man will only choose to do the will of God through supernatural power that comes by grace through faith.

Blessings,
RW

Slug1
Sep 24th 2016, 06:30 PM
Man, through his own free will chose to heed the voice of the serpent,
Hey RogerW... a Reformist believes in predestination (as taught by the doctrine)... so how can a Reformist say "man, through his own free will chose..."

Such words from a Reformist truly makes no sense.

RogerW
Sep 24th 2016, 06:59 PM
Man had freedom to choose to obey God and live forever or disobey and die! We all know what man chose, and for that reason the will of man is now only free to choose that which is according to his/her nature, or natural man!

Edited to add, in their fallen state! Only after the grace of God finds mankind is he/she free to choose to submit to Christ supernaturally.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Stew Ward's Hip
Sep 24th 2016, 09:43 PM
That is not consistent with Reformd theology.

boangry
Sep 25th 2016, 06:02 AM
I agree with what you have said here in that there the bible mentions of spirits : Gods holy spirit,
the spirit of Christ Jesus, Manís spirit, the spirit of antichrist, demons and Satan. Maybe also angels as well could be classed as spirits?



Imo, the prince of the power of the air - likely refers to evil spirits which are under control of Satan. They work in those who are children of disobedience.

Ok I might have to agree to disagree here, the fact prince is used in the title denotes the one of the first rank or the chief, Also we are told we once walked according to the course this world and the comparison is made with also walking according to the prince of the power of the air, which means to me the same thing and if its this spirit now working in the sons of disobedience then if its demons would that not cancel out the spirit of the world, or indicate that there are two types of spirits working in us?

I have to admit the reason I like the comparison with Satan is that from the beginning and all through biblical history we can watch the entire episode of Satan being played out, for example him being the king of Tyre and trading By the multitude of thy merchandise to entering Judas at the betrayal etc. So I can see how the world affected Satan and can therefore relate to it, which I could not do if we are talking about other fallen angels.

I can see how maybe you can see its Satan then decide all those demons under him are figuratively acting on his behalf, but wouldnít the context need to change from singular to plural?
The major focus of the verses here is also that we were worldlings so we have the fact we were once dead in trespass and sins.

And verse 3 continues with the past, and continues to point out our sinful inherited nature.

Eph 2:3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Something I find interesting and it might just be me, but what were all the bad things the demons did? I know they possessed people and tormented them, and told everyone Jesus was the son of Christ because they could recognise Him, but did any of them steal? Did any of them murder, did any of them become lustful?
Yet look at Sodom and Gomorrah, people were lustful, murderers, drunken etc all without the help of demons and God judged them for it, the spirit in them was the spirit of the world?





Those who worship false Gods and follow after false religions and those who reject God.


Eph 6:12 (NIV) our battle is against rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and spiritual forces in the heavenly realms.

Imo, they influence non-believers and lead them to conform to the ways of the world, rather than the ways of God by exchanging the truth of God for a lie (Rom 1:25) or suppressing the truth (Rom 1:18).


As you quoted Eph 6 and 12 here I am definitely in the minority with my viewpoint here also so any more elaboration on how you see this verse is welcome, I think there is two different ways people read and apply the subject matter of the verse.

Eph 6:12 (NIV) our battle is against rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and spiritual forces in the heavenly realms.

This verse is interesting, and I realise the preceding verse talks about the wiles of the devil, but people read the verse this way for some reason or another

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(demons) but against principalities, (demons)against powers,(demons) against the rulers of the darkness of this world, (demons) against spiritual wickedness in high places. (demons)

Yet I cant read it that way, and rightly or wrongly I read it this way

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, (the spirit of man/world) but against principalities, (men who hold positions) against powers, (men in power) against the rulers of the darkness of this world, (kings/men who rule the world) against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Men in high places who walk after their lusts and idealise the spirit of the world)

If I can extrapolate this out for example, We need to be outfitted in our spiritual armor for the world is a dangerous battleground, for a less extreme example schools and universities teach evolution in subjects that donít even need to, we need to have a shield of faith to stand against these wiles of the devil (figuratively speaking) so we know and trust and rely on the Word of God, all the Word of God. The politicians and teachers are placed in authority over our youth, (principalities and rulers) and most donít hold the scriptures as relevant, this is not a flesh and blood battle but a spiritual battle to keep and to continue witnessing the truth for with the breastplate we know we are right if in accordance with Gods Word.

Probably a poor example of how to interpret the verse off the top of my head, but Itís practical and the example applies to everyday life, and shows how people can be strengthened in their faith by relying on Gods Word by wielding the sword of truth when the world is so obviously against Christ. If theres a litmus test on understanding if an interpretation is correct or not, the first is does it line up with all other scriptures, the second is does it bring glory to God, and the third is does it give guidance and growth for the Christian in his walk.






These evil spirits deceive and teach wrong things.

Of deceiving and evil spirits

(1 Tim 4:1 NIV) The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.


(Rev 16:14 NIV) They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

(Rev 18:2 NIV) With a mighty voice he shouted: "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.


Of the Anti-christ

(1 John 2:22 NIV) Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.

(1 John 4:3 NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

(2 John 1:7 NIV) Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.


Of the worship of false Gods and their practices

(Rev 9:20 NIV) The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

(Rev 9:21 NIV) Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

I may have to come back to what you wrote here, I like what you have said yet I think I hold a figurative view of things and think people see it the same way, yet and I also find this in real life For instance I definitely think there are doctrines of demons out there, and when people agree I assume we are on the same wavelength then I find out later they think Demons aka fallen angels are making up false theology and distributing it out there for example evolution, while I think that evolution while man made undermines the bible and can rock peoples so called beliefs yet I will gladly call it a doctrine of demons for I can see a figurative example of it causing people of rejecting Christ in the way the rebelling angels did.

boangry
Sep 25th 2016, 06:15 AM
You articulated the situation better than I;)

Yes, Satan is a metaphor for SIN. Ever wondered why some people blame Satan when caught in sin? Do you think they are lying when they blame Satan for their own actions? The answer to both questions is No, they are not lying! However, just as Judas Iscariot could not claim innocence by blaming Satan for his act of betrayal, so also every individual must also take responsibility for exercising their "free will" to sin, regardless that their sin was at the behest of Satan. Another way to look at it is like a man on a bridge and a voice in his head tells him to jump into the water below, or waiting to cross the road in heavy traffic and his head tells him to run into an oncoming truck. Both of these actions if obeyed will ultimately result in death and that's what Satan does, unremittingly goading us to sin and death. And so, just as both individuals at the bridge and on the roadside chose to ignore the voice urging them to certain death, so we must also resist the devil and he will flee from us.

Get this, just as Jesus stands at the door and knocks, (without forcing himself in) if we open unto him he will come in and sup with us (Rev 3:20), so also does Satan tempt us without actually forcing us! That is why those who eventually do his bidding like Judas cannot be exonerated.

Paul addressed your statement about us living in Satan's environment in Rom 12:2 with the warning that though we live in the world, we should not conform to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind (a change in our mindset) to live according to the will of God.

Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

When I read this verse I notice after Judas takes the sop and Satan then enters him, that is when Jesus says to him "what thou doest do quickly", I cant help but read that this is a command to Satan and Satan has no choice but to obey the Lords Word, no doubt Judas had already decided he was going to take the money for greed was a factor in his betrayal, but I think there was a reason for Satan to enter him and make sure the betrayal in the garden went according to the Lords plan? I just thought I would put it out there without going into it to much.

Trivalee
Sep 25th 2016, 05:25 PM
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

When I read this verse I notice after Judas takes the sop and Satan then enters him, that is when Jesus says to him "what thou doest do quickly", I cant help but read that this is a command to Satan and Satan has no choice but to obey the Lords Word, no doubt Judas had already decided he was going to take the money for greed was a factor in his betrayal, but I think there was a reason for Satan to enter him and make sure the betrayal in the garden went according to the Lords plan? I just thought I would put it out there without going into it to much.

We are led to understand that Lucifer's thought of elevating himself as God, IOW, (his pride) is the reason he fell out of favour with God. Note that he did not or rather God did not give him the chance to actually commit the offence before he became a pariah to God? So Judas' insincerity and half-hearted faith in Christ made him susceptible to be used by Satan. Don't forget that Satan as ever watches us and when he perceives that our heart is not fully committed to God, he pounces knowing we are then amenable.

So long before Satan into him, he (Satan) has seen him as a soil tended and fertilised and ready to grow evil. Compare it to Peter who Jesus said that Satan had desired to sieve (attack), but Jesus intervened. You'll quickly find that the difference is that Peter's heart was not readily yielding to Satan who just wanted to kill him knowing the church/gospel will lie on his shoulders after Christ is gone.

chad
Sep 25th 2016, 08:46 PM
Rev 12:9 writes that not only was Satan cast out of heaven, the angels that followed him did also. Rev 12:9 writes 'his angels'.

(Rev 12:9 NIV) The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.



The Pharisees also referred to a title called prince of demons which they called Beelzebub - a name that refers to Satan.

(Mat 9:34 NIV) But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."

(Mat 12:24 NIV) But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

Beelzebub G954. Beelzeboul, beh-el-zeb-ool'; of Chald. or ; dung-god; Beel-zebul, a name of Satan:--Beelzebub.


Eph 2:2-3

(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


Prince G758. archon, ar'-khone; pres. part. of G757; a first (in rank or power):--chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.

Power G1849. exousia, ex-oo-see'-ah; from G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subj.) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (obj.) mastery (concr. magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:--authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

Spirit H4151. pneuma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. G5590.


If we look at what spirit to that is working in the children of disobedience, imo it refers to a demon. Mt 12:24, writes that Satan is the prince of demons.

(Mat 12:24 NIV) But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."




Maybe also angels as well could be classed as spirits?

Ok I might have to agree to disagree here, the fact prince is used in the title denotes the one of the first rank or the chief, Also we are told we once walked according to the course this world and the comparison is made with also walking according to the prince of the power of the air, which means to me the same thing and if its this spirit now working in the sons of disobedience then if its demons would that not cancel out the spirit of the world, or indicate that there are two types of spirits working in us?

I have to admit the reason I like the comparison with Satan is that from the beginning and all through biblical history we can watch the entire episode of Satan being played out, for example him being the king of Tyre and trading By the multitude of thy merchandise to entering Judas at the betrayal etc. So I can see how the world affected Satan and can therefore relate to it, which I could not do if we are talking about other fallen angels.

I can see how maybe you can see its Satan then decide all those demons under him are figuratively acting on his behalf, but wouldn’t the context need to change from singular to plural?
The major focus of the verses here is also that we were worldlings so we have the fact we were once dead in trespass and sins.

And verse 3 continues with the past, and continues to point out our sinful inherited nature.

Eph 2:3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Something I find interesting and it might just be me, but what were all the bad things the demons did? I know they possessed people and tormented them, and told everyone Jesus was the son of Christ because they could recognise Him, but did any of them steal? Did any of them murder, did any of them become lustful?
Yet look at Sodom and Gomorrah, people were lustful, murderers, drunken etc all without the help of demons and God judged them for it, the spirit in them was the spirit of the world?


As you quoted Eph 6 and 12 here I am definitely in the minority with my viewpoint here also so any more elaboration on how you see this verse is welcome, I think there is two different ways people read and apply the subject matter of the verse.

Eph 6:12 (NIV) our battle is against rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and spiritual forces in the heavenly realms.

This verse is interesting, and I realise the preceding verse talks about the wiles of the devil, but people read the verse this way for some reason or another

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(demons) but against principalities, (demons)against powers,(demons) against the rulers of the darkness of this world, (demons) against spiritual wickedness in high places. (demons)

Yet I cant read it that way, and rightly or wrongly I read it this way

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, (the spirit of man/world) but against principalities, (men who hold positions) against powers, (men in power) against the rulers of the darkness of this world, (kings/men who rule the world) against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Men in high places who walk after their lusts and idealise the spirit of the world)

If I can extrapolate this out for example, We need to be outfitted in our spiritual armor for the world is a dangerous battleground, for a less extreme example schools and universities teach evolution in subjects that don’t even need to, we need to have a shield of faith to stand against these wiles of the devil (figuratively speaking) so we know and trust and rely on the Word of God, all the Word of God. The politicians and teachers are placed in authority over our youth, (principalities and rulers) and most don’t hold the scriptures as relevant, this is not a flesh and blood battle but a spiritual battle to keep and to continue witnessing the truth for with the breastplate we know we are right if in accordance with Gods Word.

Probably a poor example of how to interpret the verse off the top of my head, but It’s practical and the example applies to everyday life, and shows how people can be strengthened in their faith by relying on Gods Word by wielding the sword of truth when the world is so obviously against Christ. If theres a litmus test on understanding if an interpretation is correct or not, the first is does it line up with all other scriptures, the second is does it bring glory to God, and the third is does it give guidance and growth for the Christian in his walk.


I may have to come back to what you wrote here, I like what you have said yet I think I hold a figurative view of things and think people see it the same way, [B]yet and I also find this in real life For instance I definitely think there are doctrines of demons out there, and when people agree I assume we are on the same wavelength then I find out later they think Demons aka fallen angels are making up false theology and distributing it out there for example evolution, while I think that evolution while man made undermines the bible and can rock peoples so called beliefs yet I will gladly call it a doctrine of demons for I can see a figurative example of it causing people of rejecting Christ in the way the rebelling angels did.

Slug1
Sep 26th 2016, 12:16 AM
Man had freedom to choose to obey God and live forever or disobey and die! We all know what man chose, and for that reason the will of man is now only free to choose that which is according to his/her nature, or natural man!

Edited to add, in their fallen state! Only after the grace of God finds mankind is he/she free to choose to submit to Christ supernaturally.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.What you just said is FAR from Reformed doctrinal theology.

No wonder it's extremely difficult to understand where you are coming from when discussing Bible... it's not from the Reformed doctrine, and the mix of scriptures and the lack of context that you use to explain your statements and points... I don't know what to think.

Also... based on the Word, God's grace was long before creation came into existence and we see how God's grace works when God came into the garden AFTER man fell and was still able to be in the presence of man. Grace is for ALL the world... proven in that garden with Adam and Eve.

Stonesoffire
Sep 26th 2016, 03:17 PM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, ďAnanias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.Ē

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?

What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan?

What do people think...

Also is it actually Satan in person who is the cause or is Satan actually an allusion to the fall and a sin stained world?

Some verses for consideration...

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the Devil for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. For this reason the Son of Man was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil

Contrasted by the following verse

.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,because he has been born of God.

Summarised by

.10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.11. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12. not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brotherís righteous.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And hopefully some will have other verses that are relevant.

There is such a thing as a lying spirit.

1Ki_22:22* And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

We have ability to choose, do we not? Even one who was possessed by a legion of demons chose to run to Jesus for help.

Fallen nature is being taken from being a spiritual being to a natural being or human. When we understand this..all other questions seem to just fall into place.

A natural man is self centered. We are born into this. A spirit man is God centered. A spirit man cannot sin. A natural man can and will. If a child wants something, their desire is to have it no matter what mom or dad says. So they have a tantrum. Correction controls the behavior hopefully. Just as law controls wrong actions.

A God centered man or woman has had this self-centeredness crucified by faith in the Cross of Jesus. There is action from faith. So this spirit man cannot sin. However, we still have our soul. It is always our soul that needs saved, crucified daily, and the mind renewed.

Satan lies to us about God...about our salvation...and unless our mind is renewed by truth of the Word in Spirit revelation, we can act as a natural man who lies when under pressure of some kind to get out of a trouble.

Satans actions towards us are lies to produce unbelief.

The spirit that works in the disobedient is unbelief. The spirit that works in the obedient is belief or faith.

Its not what we do that matters so much as it is what we are. When we know that we know what we are....what Jesus has made us...all these things of darkness drop off as what Paul said to be "dung".

Ive said a lot to say this one thing. Don't magnify the works of the devil so much...magnify the work of the Son of God.

Trivalee
Sep 28th 2016, 12:41 PM
There is such a thing as a lying spirit.

1Ki_22:22* And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

We have ability to choose, do we not? Even one who was possessed by a legion of demons chose to run to Jesus for help.

Fallen nature is being taken from being a spiritual being to a natural being or human. When we understand this..all other questions seem to just fall into place.

A natural man is self centered. We are born into this. A spirit man is God centered. A spirit man cannot sin. A natural man can and will. If a child wants something, their desire is to have it no matter what mom or dad says. So they have a tantrum. Correction controls the behavior hopefully. Just as law controls wrong actions.

A God centered man or woman has had this self-centeredness crucified by faith in the Cross of Jesus. There is action from faith. So this spirit man cannot sin. However, we still have our soul. It is always our soul that needs saved, crucified daily, and the mind renewed.

Satan lies to us about God...about our salvation...and unless our mind is renewed by truth of the Word in Spirit revelation, we can act as a natural man who lies when under pressure of some kind to get out of a trouble.

Satans actions towards us are lies to produce unbelief.

The spirit that works in the disobedient is unbelief. The spirit that works in the obedient is belief or faith.

Its not what we do that matters so much as it is what we are. When we know that we know what we are....what Jesus has made us...all these things of darkness drop off as what Paul said to be "dung".

Ive said a lot to say this one thing. Don't magnify the works of the devil so much...magnify the work of the Son of God.

Good post, properly articulated.

CadyandZoe
Sep 28th 2016, 01:25 PM
Acts Chapter 5.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds,his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, ďAnanias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land foryourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.Ē

So what does this actually mean, does Satan make people lie? or is this a figure of speech and a rebuke? are people only part responsible for their lies?Satan Doesn't make people lie. Rather, Satan appeals to a man's (or a woman's) moral weaknesses, giving him a rationalization or many rationalizations for pleasurable behaviors. As a man falls into temptation, accepting rationalizations becomes much easier to accept over time. I suspect that Ananias was filled with such rationalizations, making excuses for his cravings, his need for the approval of other men, his fear of going hungry, even perhaps his fear of having no money. His heart was filled with the lies that Satan tells all of us: 'God expects you to provide for yourself', 'horde enough money for an unexpected downturn', 'protect yourself first', 'looking good is the same as being good'.


[FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=4]What about when a 6yr old boy lies, is it because Satan actually puts the idea into his heart, or is it part of our fallen trait which can be linked back to the serpent aka Satan? Most lies are born of fear and children have a lot of things to fear, being small and vulnerable. When a child lies, he (or she) is expressing a wish that reality was different and didn't make him afraid. People learn to use lies to make them feel better about their fears or they lie in order to avoid an uncomfortable truth about themselves.

Trivalee
Sep 28th 2016, 04:42 PM
Satan Doesn't make people lie. Rather, Satan appeals to a man's (or a woman's) moral weaknesses, giving him a rationalization or many rationalizations for pleasurable behaviors. As a man falls into temptation, accepting rationalizations becomes much easier to accept over time. I suspect that Ananias was filled with such rationalizations, making excuses for his cravings, his need for the approval of other men, his fear of going hungry, even perhaps his fear of having no money. His heart was filled with the lies that Satan tells all of us: 'God expects you to provide for yourself', 'horde enough money for an unexpected downturn', 'protect yourself first', 'looking good is the same as being good'.

Most lies are born of fear and children have a lot of things to fear, being small and vulnerable. When a child lies, he (or she) is expressing a wish that reality was different and didn't make him afraid. People learn to use lies to make them feel better about their fears or they lie in order to avoid an uncomfortable truth about themselves.

Some circumstances don't have any inherent danger or discomfort to justify lying. Yet some people (adults and children) lies regardless. To a child, maybe his family and environment have taught him that lying (even when it's unnecessary) is normal, acceptable and that the "lie" perhaps makes him clever. In this case, the child has a false sense of importance and cleverness especially if he gets away with the lie. For the adult on the hand, an amoral lifestyle heightens a sense of the mischievous: being outside the law or rebelling against the acceptable norm. The truth is people have a myriad of reasons to lie, but ultimately, it all stems from Satan's instigation.

Stonesoffire
Sep 28th 2016, 08:41 PM
Thank you trivalee..

Stew Ward's Hip
Sep 28th 2016, 08:43 PM
Like the little boy in Sunday School said, when asked if he knew what a lie was:

"A lie is an abomination to the Lord, a very present help in time of trouble."

:D

Stonesoffire
Sep 28th 2016, 08:50 PM
Funny.......x 15. :lol:

Trivalee
Sep 28th 2016, 11:40 PM
Like the little boy in Sunday School said, when asked if he knew what a lie was:

"A lie is an abomination to the Lord, a very present help in time of trouble."

:D

Aptly put, as only an innocent can;)

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Sep 29th 2016, 05:56 PM
The influence of Satan is to lead people into sin (wilful transgression) and iniquities of all sorts. Just like the influence of the Holy Ghost is to lead people into paths of righteousness and fruits of the Spirit. Neither one usually "makes" people do either, although there are instances in scripture of the LORD raising up people for specific purposes and instances of the LORD allowing Satan to use people for specific purposes (Prov 21:1). Even in said cases, I believe the LORD works through the will of the people, in other words it wasn't like YHWH caused a righteous God-fearing Pharaoh to have a hard heart, and not like YHWH raised up His prophets who otherwise willed or sought to be wicked evildoers, etc.

Initially, it seems pretty stock that people are born/wired with a conscience, and with a measure of grace and space/time to repent and to seek the LORD. Once that conscience is seared, the people are usually given over (even for a time) to their own wickedness, but the LORD again usually grants grace and space/time to repent. If someone (even Christians) give themselves over to temptation, doesn't want to ask the LORD for grace and mercy and help, they are likely going to yield to the temptation. If someone takes every thought captive to the obedience of Christ Jesus, and seeks the LORD for grace and mercy in time of need, they will be the more likely candidate to overcome and not lie (or cheat, etc).

To suggest that "Satan made me do it" for Christians is nearing blasphemy as they should be led by the Holy Spirit, who would never lead you into sin or allow Satan to MAKE you sin. We have to take responsibility for our sins, and when we give in to temptations of the enemy, we confess our sins and the LORD is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. On the other hand, to deny the persistent influence of Satan and his demons to lead us astray is also unrealistic, most people will attest to this being consistent even more-so the close one walks with the LORD. Yield and sow to the flesh, reap corruption. Yield and sow to the Spirit, yield good fruits/obedience/righteousness, etc. LORD, please continue to have mercy on us and help us in our times of need, in Jesus' holy name!

Stonesoffire
Sep 30th 2016, 03:49 PM
Joh 17:20* Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
*
Joh 17:21* That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.*

Joh 17:22* And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
*
Joh 17:23* I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.*

Joh 17:24* Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

One...the goal. :) The place of complete protection....the perfect. Mature. The place that Jesus ruled from. Where the body is headed. Some have reached it already. *

Trivalee
Sep 30th 2016, 04:30 PM
The influence of Satan is to lead people into sin (wilful transgression) and iniquities of all sorts. Just like the influence of the Holy Ghost is to lead people into paths of righteousness and fruits of the Spirit. Neither one usually "makes" people do either, although there are instances in scripture of the LORD raising up people for specific purposes and instances of the LORD allowing Satan to use people for specific purposes (Prov 21:1). Even in said cases, I believe the LORD works through the will of the people, in other words it wasn't like YHWH caused a righteous God-fearing Pharaoh to have a hard heart, and not like YHWH raised up His prophets who otherwise willed or sought to be wicked evildoers, etc.

Initially, it seems pretty stock that people are born/wired with a conscience, and with a measure of grace and space/time to repent and to seek the LORD. Once that conscience is seared, the people are usually given over (even for a time) to their own wickedness, but the LORD again usually grants grace and space/time to repent. If someone (even Christians) give themselves over to temptation, doesn't want to ask the LORD for grace and mercy and help, they are likely going to yield to the temptation. If someone takes every thought captive to the obedience of Christ Jesus, and seeks the LORD for grace and mercy in time of need, they will be the more likely candidate to overcome and not lie (or cheat, etc).

To suggest that "Satan made me do it" for Christians is nearing blasphemy as they should be led by the Holy Spirit, who would never lead you into sin or allow Satan to MAKE you sin. We have to take responsibility for our sins, and when we give in to temptations of the enemy, we confess our sins and the LORD is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. On the other hand, to deny the persistent influence of Satan and his demons to lead us astray is also unrealistic, most people will attest to this being consistent even more-so the close one walks with the LORD. Yield and sow to the flesh, reap corruption. Yield and sow to the Spirit, yield good fruits/obedience/righteousness, etc. LORD, please continue to have mercy on us and help us in our times of need, in Jesus' holy name!

Good post. It strengthens what I presented earlier;
a) satan instigates us to sin, which is a rebellion against God .
b) the sinner must take responsibility for his actions just like Judas Iscariot cannot blame satan for betraying his Master.
c) whether we live in sin or righteousness depends on who we allow to reign supreme in our spirit man--are we captive to the law of sin or to the Spirit of God?