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jayne
Nov 6th 2016, 09:05 PM
There are lots of verses where the Bible implicitly, yet in my mind concretely, identifies Jesus as God. Some who disagree are quick to say, but it doesn't explicitly say he is and ergo, semantics are wielded, gnats are strained at, camels swallowed, neither forests nor trees can be seen, arguments are made long past the cows have come home, and many nits are picked and no one concedes their point.


But here are five verses that overtly and explicitly name Jesus Christ AS God and cannot be refuted.

I used some of these in Sunday School this morning.



Paul says in Romans 9:4-5: "Theirs [the Jews] is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises. Theirs are the patriarch, and from then proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise."





Peter says in 2 Peter 1:1 = "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours..."





Paul again says in Titus 2:12b-13 = "...to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we wait the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."




The author of Hebrews says in 1:7-8 [the chapter explaining the supremacy of Christ] that God says this about angels, then Jesus: "Now about the angels He says, 'He makes His angels winds, his servants flames of fire.' But of the Son He says, 'Your throne O God, will last forever and ever and righteousness will be the scepter of Your kingdom.'" [quoting Psalm 45:6]




And lastly, John the "doubting" disciple who doubts no more said to Jesus in John 20:28 when examining his wounds, "My Lord and My God!"


So, .....

[1] Paul said explicitly that Jesus is God - twice.
[2] Peter said explicitly that Jesus is God.
[3] Thomas explicitly called Jesus God.

[4] But MOST importantly, God, HIMSELF, said via the author of Hebrews and the psalmist that Jesus IS God.

Jesus' identity is just not rocket science.

Tony P
Nov 6th 2016, 11:17 PM
Amen. I would add that we can be sure Jesus is God from the OT as well.

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, AND His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.'”

The Lord, the king of Israel, our Father AND His redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, Jesus are one. One God.

Isaiah 48:16-17 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me. Thus says the Lord, your redeemer”

The Lord your redeemer is sent by the Lord God and His spirit. The trinity in the OT.


What is the name of the Lord of Hosts? Here are the "BRANCH" verses.

1. Jeremiah 23:5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. 6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

In this passage in the Hebrew, "Lord" is Yahweh BOTH times in this one passage. Yahweh is the one speaking and says a King will come and HIS name will be Yahweh our Righteousness. Yahweh is God for those who haven't heard the Hebrew. God speaks and His King is God our righteousness.

2. Isaiah 4:2. “In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious; and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing for those of Israel who have escaped.”

3. Zechariah 3:8-9 “Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,... For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the Branch. For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua... And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.”

Who can take away sin but God himself?

4. Psalms 80:15,17 “And the vineyard which Your right hand has planted, and the Branch that You made strong for Yourself...Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, upon the Son of Man whom You made strong for Yourself.”

5. Isaiah 11:1-2 “There shall come forth from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.”

Drum roll.....

6. Zechariah 6:11-12 “Take the silver and gold, make an elaborate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua son of Jehozadek, the high priest. Then speak to him, saying, 'Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!”

Joshua is the Messiah, the son of man, the Lord of Hosts! Joshua is Yehoshua in Hebrew. This is the very name translated as Iesous in Greek, then translated as Jesus in English.

From the verses above He is called: Beautiful, Glorious, Righteous, King, Judge, God our Righteousness, Remover of Sin, Son of Man, made strong for God, Holy Spirit upon Him, having Wisdom, Counselor, Mighty, having the Spirit of Knowledge. And His name is JESUS! It is right there in the Old Testament. Jesus is called God our righteousness in the OT. There is no doubt that Jesus is God.

ProDeo
Nov 7th 2016, 01:31 AM
I saved a few quotes from people during a Trinity debate with someone how doubted the Trinity.


It sounds like you are creating some new kind of being. Something which cannot be man, nor angel, nor God, that sits at the right hand of God, exercises
God's judgment, and yet is for some reason, so distinct from God as to rule out the trinity concept. Is there scriptural support for such a being?


If Jesus Christ is not God, then all trinitarians are idolaters because we worship Jesus Christ as God. The Bible CLEARLY states that ALL idolaters will
have their place in the lake of fire.

Aviyah
Nov 7th 2016, 02:30 AM
Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Doesn't this verse imply that Jesus is the Father also?

mailmandan
Nov 7th 2016, 12:08 PM
Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” Look at the Jews reaction in John 10:33 - The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." Here we see an actual claim. The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). JESUS IS GOD.

David Taylor
Nov 7th 2016, 02:22 PM
Doesn't this verse imply that Jesus is the Father also?

Actually, this verse is not a confusion between Jesus and the Father; but not worded so clearly in the KJV to get the intent across.

Basically when it says He (Jesus) is the Everlasting Father; it means that Jesus is the Father of, or Owner of, or Ruler of -- Everlasting.

John 6:27 "everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you"
John 17:2 "that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

Isaiah 9:6 isn't intented on being a verse that creates confusion within the Trinity; it is a verse to display the unique prophesied characteristics of Jesus who would come as God Himself, to the Earth.

David Taylor
Nov 7th 2016, 02:48 PM
Isaiah is one of the best OT books that establishes either:

1) Jesus is YHWH; or
2) The NT is false and Jesus is a fraud

Notice what Isaiah teaches us; and what the NT writers applied to Jesus related to Isaiah; showing Jesus' unchallengable divinity.



Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Titus 2:13 "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity"
Revelation 1:17 Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;


Isaiah 45:14 "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), there is none else, there is no God. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. "
Matthew 4:42 "this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."


Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. "
Philippians 3:20 "we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"Philippians2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"


Isaiah 48:12 "I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD (YHWH)"
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
Colossians 1:14 "his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth"

Tony P
Nov 7th 2016, 06:03 PM
Doesn't this verse imply that Jesus is the Father also?

David gave a good answer already. I will add a scriptures here.

Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.

Tony P
Nov 7th 2016, 06:06 PM
Isaiah is one of the best OT books that establishes either:

1) Jesus is YHWH; or
2) The NT is false and Jesus is a fraud

Notice what Isaiah teaches us; and what the NT writers applied to Jesus related to Isaiah; showing Jesus' unchallengable divinity.



Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Titus 2:13 "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity"
Revelation 1:17 Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;


Isaiah 45:14 "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), there is none else, there is no God. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. "
Matthew 4:42 "this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."


Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. "
Philippians 3:20 "we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"Philippians2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"


Isaiah 48:12 "I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD (YHWH)"
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
Colossians 1:14 "his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth"

Good stuff! Isaiah is so blatantly obvious about who Jesus is. I am not at all surprised that the leather Isaiah scroll found in Qumran was the only one nearly completely in tact. It is a last chance for His people to come to Him. Just read it Israel!

David Taylor
Nov 7th 2016, 10:55 PM
Another beauty:

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD (YHWH) defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced"
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

If Jesus isn't YHWH, why was YHWH pierced, and why was Jesus being pierced quoted as being the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 that spoke of YHWH being pierced.

mailmandan
Nov 8th 2016, 12:10 AM
John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am". See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58, and 13:19.

The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And he is before all things, and by Him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

Hebrews 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

John 1:1 clearly says - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”. This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Colossians 2:9 (NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9 - (Amplified) For in Him all the fullness of Deity (the Godhead) dwells in bodily form [completely expressing the divine essence of God].

Matthew 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

In John 20:27, Jesus said to Thomas - "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" JESUS IS GOD.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 01:24 AM
[1] Paul said explicitly that Jesus is God - twice.
[2] Peter said explicitly that Jesus is God.
[3] Thomas explicitly called Jesus God.

[4] But MOST importantly, God, HIMSELF, via the author of Hebrews and the psalmist that Jesus IS God.

Jesus' identity is just not rocket science.

but what does Jesus say?

Mark 13:32
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 14:28
28 [a]Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and will come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would verily rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for the Father [b]is greater than I.

the Father knows things the Son does not and the Father is greater than the Son. sounds like there is a difference in the Father and Son.

and what does the Father say?
Matthew 3:17
17 [a]And lo, a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am [b]well pleased.

the Father does not say this is Me, He says this is my Son.

Mt 12:15-18
15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill. 16 He warned them not to tell others about him. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

i thought the Most High is above all things and not a servant to anyone.

keck553
Nov 8th 2016, 01:32 AM
You forget that Jesus is also fully human

mailmandan
Nov 8th 2016, 01:45 AM
You forget that Jesus is also fully human Amen! Speaking from His humanity, Jesus can say, "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) yet speaking from His divinity, Jesus can say, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) Jesus was fully man and fully God. This seems to confuse certain people. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God in essence/nature yet three distinct persons.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 02:09 AM
Amen! Speaking from His humanity, Jesus can say, "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) yet speaking from His divinity, Jesus can say, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) Jesus was fully man and fully God. This seems to confuse certain people. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God in essence/nature yet three distinct persons.

yes it can be soooo confusing lol.
"the Father is greater than I" according to you was spoken from His human nature yet also according to you "Jesus was fully man and fully God" yet not fully G-D when He made the statement. so Jesus apparently shut off this part of His G-D nature to make a statement that would be completely invalid the minute He turned it back on. makes little sense to me.

ChangedByHim
Nov 8th 2016, 02:30 AM
but what does Jesus say?

Mark 13:32
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 14:28
28 [a]Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and will come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would verily rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for the Father [b]is greater than I.

the Father knows things the Son does not and the Father is greater than the Son. sounds like there is a difference in the Father and Son.

and what does the Father say?
Matthew 3:17
17 [a]And lo, a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am [b]well pleased.

the Father does not say this is Me, He says this is my Son.

Mt 12:15-18
15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill. 16 He warned them not to tell others about him. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

i thought the Most High is above all things and not a servant to anyone.
How can a follower of Christ not understand His humanity, as well as the limitations He placed upon Himself while on earth in order to redeem mankind as the Second Adam? I'm baffled.

I ask, are you perhaps a Jehovah's Witness?

jayne
Nov 8th 2016, 03:03 AM
but what does Jesus say?



jaybird,

The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father. They have different roles. They are one God - in three persons. All God. One God.

The Father is God and Jesus is God and they are one along with the Holy Spirit. I have no trouble reconciling the verses in the OP with verses you cite. It takes faith to embrace things we don't 100% understand but are presented as truths from God's word.

As far as Jesus' Servanthood is concerned, Philippians 2 says that Jesus made himself a Servant even though he was already - by nature of his person - God.

Verses 5-7: "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 03:10 AM
How can a follower of Christ not understand His humanity, as well as the limitations He placed upon Himself while on earth in order to redeem mankind as the Second Adam? I'm baffled.

limitations on himself? lets go back to this passage:
Matthew 3:17
17 [a]And lo, a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am [b]well pleased.

does this sound like someone talking about their self?



I ask, are you perhaps a Jehovah's Witness?

im a member of a baptist church. may i ask you a question?

Exodus 20:13 - You shall not murder
does this passage change if the one reading it is a JW, RCC, Baptist or anything else? let me answer for you, it will always mean dont murder. so lets stick with what the bible says and not try and poison the well with ones denomination.
if you think i have made an error, then argue your point with scripture, dont say im wrong because the sign in front of my church is different than the sign in front of your church.
i go to church to praise and worship the Most High, not to follow the group.

mailmandan
Nov 8th 2016, 11:01 AM
yes it can be soooo confusing lol. As you have demonstrated. ;)


"the Father is greater than I" according to you was spoken from His human nature yet also according to you "Jesus was fully man and fully God" yet not fully G-D when He made the statement. so Jesus apparently shut off this part of His G-D nature to make a statement that would be completely invalid the minute He turned it back on. makes little sense to me. Jesus was also fully God when He made that statement, but as Jayne pointed out in post #17, Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

In regards to the Second Coming of Christ, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father. He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (John 2:25; 3:13), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity. Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge.

Jesus' submission to the Father as well as their Oneness in the Godhead. Yes, they are both God. But some things Jesus had apparently chosen to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.

David Taylor
Nov 8th 2016, 02:23 PM
limitations on himself? lets go back to this passage:
Matthew 3:17
17 [a]And lo, a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am [b]well pleased.

does this sound like someone talking about their self?


Jesus is talking to the Father.
They are both distinct; yet they are both YHWH eternal God.
No confusion or contradiction.

The Father has one nature; eternal spirit.
The Son has two natures; 1) eternal spirit; 2) mortal man initiated at Bethlehem.

That the Son talks to the Father; or the Father sends the H.S. or the Holy Spirit convicts to receive the Son, etc...shows the subject-object distinction within the Godhead YHWH.
One eternal divine being; that chose to reveal Himself in three distinct persons.





im a member of a baptist church. may i ask you a question?

Exodus 20:13 - You shall not murder
does this passage change if the one reading it is a JW, RCC, Baptist or anything else? let me answer for you, it will always mean dont murder. so lets stick with what the bible says and not try and poison the well with ones denomination.
if you think i have made an error, then argue your point with scripture, dont say im wrong because the sign in front of my church is different than the sign in front of your church.
i go to church to praise and worship the Most High, not to follow the group.

Asking if you are a JW isn't poisoning the well; it is just better understanding where you are coming from.

Let's be frank, since you joined, you have mostly fixated your posts around the topic of questioning the eternal deity and divinity of Jesus Christ.
This is a common approah that JWs (not RCC, Baptist, or anyone else) does. So that is why it wasn't ridiculous to pose the question.

You say you are a baptist; but batists are adamantly trinitarian, and have always been.

What caused you to become a baptist if you disagree with one of their primary foundational beliefs? (the divininty of Christ).

Why do you continue to bring about dialog that questions the divinity of Christ? Is there a point you are trying to get? Are you struggling with understanding, or are you wanting to sway folks away from believing the Trinity? What is your honest intent on all these deity of Christ topics?

ChangedByHim
Nov 8th 2016, 03:12 PM
Thanks for taking the time to respond to jaybird, David.

keck553
Nov 8th 2016, 04:05 PM
yes it can be soooo confusing lol.
"the Father is greater than I" according to you was spoken from His human nature yet also according to you "Jesus was fully man and fully God" yet not fully G-D when He made the statement. so Jesus apparently shut off this part of His G-D nature to make a statement that would be completely invalid the minute He turned it back on. makes little sense to me.

It's not confusing if you dispose of the indoctrination taught by false teachers. John said The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That means He was fully one of us. Jesus Himself describes the fullness of glory which He had BEFORE He became flesh and dwelt among us RESTORED. Yes, Jesus manifested Himself a little lower than the angels for OUR SAKE. It was His sacrifice to do this.

To twist God humbling Himself to redeem humanity into some greater than/lesser than proposition is heresy and an affront to God.

I pray you allow God to open your heart to fully embrace His glory.

keck553
Nov 8th 2016, 04:10 PM
You say you are a baptist; but batists are adamantly trinitarian, and have always been.

What caused you to become a baptist if you disagree with one of their primary foundational beliefs? (the divininty of Christ).



In order to join a (SBC) Baptist congregation as a member, one must believe:

The Scriptures are true, authoritative and sufficient (Psalm 19:7-11; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21).
• There is only one God who eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 46:9-10; John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:4:-6; 1 Timothy 2:5).
• The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son (Genesis 1:26; Psalm 45:6-7; Psalm 110:1; Matthew 3: 13-17; Matthew 28: 17-20; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6).
• Each of us, along with all humanity (Christ excluded), are by birth and action a sinner (Genesis 6:5; Psalm 51:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:23; 5:8, 12-21, 7:18; Ephesians 2:1-3).
• The deserved penalty for sin is death, both physical and spiritual (Genesis 2:15-17; Genesis 3:19, Romans 5:12; 6:23, James 1:14-15).
• Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, was born of a virgin and is both fully God and fully human (Matthew 1:20; Luke 2:52; John 1:1-4, 14; Colossians 1:15-20; Hebrews 1:1-3).
• Jesus Christ died as a substitute to pay the penalty for the sin of all mankind (John 1:29; 10:1-18, Romans 5:8, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 1:4; 1 Peter 3:18).
• Jesus Christ physically rose from the dead (Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24:1-53; John 1:20-21:25; 1 Corinthians 15:12-34).
• Jesus Christ physically ascended into heaven and will one day physically return (John 14:3; Acts 1:11; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Hebrews 9:28; 1 John 3:2; Revelation 1:7).
• There will be a future physical resurrection of the dead. Those who trust in Jesus Christ alone will be raised to eternal reward. Those who have not trusted in Jesus Christ will be raised to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:28-29; Acts 24-15).
•Only by trusting in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone can a person be reconciled to God and experience true life and joy (John 3:18, 14:6; Acts 4:12; Romans 3:21-26; 1 Timothy 2: 5-6).

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 8th 2016, 05:18 PM
Excerpting from the OP: " Some who disagree are quick to say, but it doesn't explicitly say he is "

Those people are what I like to call un-read and WRONG!

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 06:28 PM
No confusion or contradiction.

it is very confusing when you apply "yet they are both YHWH eternal God."
to
"17 [a]And lo, a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am [b]well pleased."

one individual talking about another individual

that makes little sense and is therefor very confusing/



Asking if you are a JW isn't poisoning the well; it is just better understanding where you are coming from.

it actually is poisoning the well because i am being linked with a denomination and their doctrine. my thoughts were based on specific scriptures i posted.



You say you are a baptist; but batists are adamantly trinitarian, and have always been.

What caused you to become a baptist if you disagree with one of their primary foundational beliefs? (the divininty of Christ).
should i be lead by the group or the Spirit?

Why do you continue to bring about dialog that questions the divinity of Christ? Is there a point you are trying to get? Are you struggling with understanding, or are you wanting to sway folks away from believing the Trinity? What is your honest intent on all these deity of Christ topics?
i dont want to sway anyone from what they believe.

ChangedByHim
Nov 8th 2016, 06:34 PM
it actually is poisoning the well because i am being linked with a denomination and their doctrine. my thoughts were based on specific scriptures i posted. This is straight out of their handbook for dialogue.........


What is your honest intent on all these deity of Christ topics?

I won't answer for David, but I will tell you this, no man can be a follower of Christ who does not believe that God came in the flesh.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 06:46 PM
question.
Why do you continue to bring about dialog that questions the divinity of Christ? Is there a point you are trying to get? Are you struggling with understanding, or are you wanting to sway folks away from believing the Trinity? What is your honest intent on all these deity of Christ topics?

why? because of statements such as this:

Excerpting from the OP: " Some who disagree are quick to say, but it doesn't explicitly say he is "

Those people are what I like to call un-read and WRONG!

when followers of Jesus are told they are not Christian, not saved, rejecting Jesus and all the rest based on the fact the person questions a doctrine of man.
the irony is that Jesus rebuked the pharisees many times when they took their laws of man and elevated them to the Laws of the Father.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 8th 2016, 06:50 PM
Believing that Jesus is God is not a doctrine of man.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 06:50 PM
This is straight out of their handbook for dialogue.........

and when someone brings up a question you dont want to hear and cant answer the best way to deal with it is link them with a group no one likes, this way you can ignore the question as if it never happened.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 06:53 PM
Believing that Jesus is God is not a doctrine of man.

show me where the doctrine of the trinity is taught in scripture. one teaching plainly taught, not bits and pieces of many scriptures all put together as one.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 8th 2016, 07:04 PM
Show me any truth in Scripture that is not bit ans pieces of many Scriptures used to interpret the whole.

If you deny the deity of Jesus, Trinitarian doctrine is meaningless.

Who do you say that Jesus is?

Athanasius
Nov 8th 2016, 07:09 PM
show me where the doctrine of the trinity is taught in scripture. one teaching plainly taught, not bits and pieces of many scriptures all put together as one.

It's fairly simple: if Jesus isn't also God, then He has performed a more loving act than God the Father. This, of course, is absurd, so Jesus is unavoidably God.

clormond
Nov 8th 2016, 07:11 PM
show me where the doctrine of the trinity is taught in scripture. one teaching plainly taught, not bits and pieces of many scriptures all put together as one.

"Let US make man in OUR own image"? so far this indicates more than one? Why in Matt were The disciples instructed to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? the entire new testiment and all the followers of christ saw that there were three in one, how do they who wrote the new testiment see three in one and we dont? we see with our carnal minds and not with our spirit, its the trinity in itself shows us that relationships were first taught by God, father loves the son and they send the holy spirit..its the nature of being.

David Taylor
Nov 8th 2016, 07:42 PM
show me where the doctrine of the trinity is taught in scripture. one teaching plainly taught, not bits and pieces of many scriptures all put together as one.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. "

Philippians 3:20 "we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"Philippians2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

If Jesus is not YHWH, then the NT should be discarded as a fraud; and the NT writers are severely blasphemous!!

Philippians tells us clearly; that Jesus is YHWH, by quoting the same verses and divine attributes if Isaiah, and applying them solely to Jesus.

There are dozens if not hundreds of other verses that do the same thing; quote an OT passage specifically and solely applicable to YHWH, and in the NT apply it soley to Jesus Christ.
Again, the amount of verses will not sway you. If you cannot believe with this one example able; thousands of other verses will not lead you.

keck553
Nov 8th 2016, 07:48 PM
show me where the doctrine of the trinity is taught in scripture. one teaching plainly taught, not bits and pieces of many scriptures all put together as one.

Show us where the doctrine of Loving God and loving neighbors as the two greatest commandments is written in the Torah.

You can't. Love your neighbor is buried in the middle of Leviticus. Yet Jesus affirmed that Hillel got it right. Yet Hillel came to that conclusion by the same exact process of exegesis (specifically "Binyab ab mishene kethubim") you claim isn't valid.

That makes your theory wrong.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 08:07 PM
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. "

Philippians 3:20 "we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"Philippians2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

If Jesus is not YHWH, then the NT should be discarded as a fraud; and the NT writers are severely blasphemous!!

Philippians tells us clearly; that Jesus is YHWH, by quoting the same verses and divine attributes if Isaiah, and applying them solely to Jesus.

There are dozens if not hundreds of other verses that do the same thing; quote an OT passage specifically and solely applicable to YHWH, and in the NT apply it soley to Jesus Christ.
Again, the amount of verses will not sway you. If you cannot believe with this one example able; thousands of other verses will not lead you.

none of that is the doctrine of the trinity, there is nothing in that addressing the different natures or equality and unity between the Father, the Son, the Spirit. the doctrine itself clearly spells this out.

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 08:09 PM
Show us where the doctrine of Loving God and loving neighbors as the two greatest commandments is written in the Torah.

You can't. Love your neighbor is buried in the middle of Leviticus. Yet Jesus affirmed that Hillel got it right. Yet Hillel came to that conclusion by the same exact process of exegesis (specifically "Binyab ab mishene kethubim") you claim isn't valid.

That makes your theory wrong.


Jesus was given authority to do that, man has no such authority. Jesus was not taught by man, He was taught by the Father just like He said.

Athanasius
Nov 8th 2016, 08:21 PM
none of that is the doctrine of the trinity, there is nothing in that addressing the different natures or equality and unity between the Father, the Son, the Spirit. the doctrine itself clearly spells this out.

Briefly:

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

The greatest love is self-sacrificial love.

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

God is love, and that includes self-sacrificial love.

Let's suggest that Jesus isn't God. The result is absurd:

a) Jesus has performed a greater love than God has
b) God has failed to demonstrate self-sacrificial love
c) God's love is selfish

a), b), and c) are neatly resolved if Jesus is God.

What you're doing is confusing the Scriptural reality that God is presented as a Trinity, with the doctrine of the Trinity's attempt to make sense of this reality, e.g. if Jesus is God, and the Father is God, but they are distinct, then how do we make sense of this? You might disagree with the doctrines formulation, but then you're disagreeing with the doctrine, not the Scriptural reality.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 8th 2016, 08:37 PM
Jaybird, again.

Who do you say that Jesus is?

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

jaybird
Nov 8th 2016, 08:53 PM
Jaybird, again.

Who do you say that Jesus is?

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

i believe Jesus is who He says He is, the Son sent from the Father.

chad
Nov 8th 2016, 09:07 PM
Maybe Isaiah was writing a description of God.

(Isaiah 9:6 KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

A child is born, a son is given – Jesus (Mt 1:23).
Counselor – Holy Spirit (John 14:26 NIV)
Father (Mt 6:18)

The father, son and counselor (Holy spirit) are all part of the description of mighty God described in Isaiah 9:6.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 8th 2016, 09:08 PM
i believe Jesus is who He says He is, the Son sent from the Father.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

ChangedByHim
Nov 8th 2016, 09:37 PM
and when someone brings up a question you dont want to hear and cant answer the best way to deal with it is link them with a group no one likes, this way you can ignore the question as if it never happened.

I'm simply exposing you to these fine people here who may be unaware. Your doctrine is from the pit of hell.

jayne
Nov 8th 2016, 11:13 PM
i believe Jesus is who He says He is, the Son sent from the Father.

So my verses in the OP, you don't believe those - I'm just trying to get a concrete grasp on your beliefs about Christ.

And speaking of Jesus saying who he was .... what about Jesus saying he is the "I AM" and those withing earshot fainting at he words?

John 18 - "Whom are you seeking?" They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth. " Jesus said to them, "I am He. " And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground."

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 8th 2016, 11:19 PM
i believe Jesus is who He says He is, the Son sent from the Father.

Well, if that is true then you know that Jesus was the Father. John 10:30 and John 14:9. :D

Athanasius
Nov 8th 2016, 11:27 PM
Well, if that is true then you know that Jesus was the Father. John 10:30 and John 14:9. :D

Cheeky ?

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 8th 2016, 11:35 PM
Cheeky ?

Come again?:dunno:

Athanasius
Nov 8th 2016, 11:49 PM
Come again?:dunno:

Joking re: a literal reading of the text, or seriously suggesting that Jesus is the Father?

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 12:36 AM
Do you believe that Jesus is God?

i believe Jesus is who He says He is, the Son sent from the Father.

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 12:41 AM
I'm simply exposing you to these fine people here who may be unaware. Your doctrine is from the pit of hell.

the words of Jesus is from the pit of hell??

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 12:41 AM
Joking re: a literal reading of the text, or seriously suggesting that Jesus is the Father?

Are scriptures telling us Jesus said he is the father not serious?

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 12:58 AM
Are scriptures telling us Jesus said he is the father not serious?

I'm asking, because of the emote at the end of your reply, if you're leading jaybird along because the Scriptures posted appear to make Jesus out to be the Father, or if you're seriously suggesting that Jesus, and the Father, are identical (i.e. Modalism)?

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 01:01 AM
So my verses in the OP, you don't believe those - I'm just trying to get a concrete grasp on your beliefs about Christ.

And speaking of Jesus saying who he was .... what about Jesus saying he is the "I AM" and those withing earshot fainting at he words?

John 18 - "Whom are you seeking?" They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth. " Jesus said to them, "I am He. " And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground."

your OP proves that the Son is greater than all men, the prophets and angels. but to make Jesus the Most High opens up issues with so many other scriptures.
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
the Father is greater than the Son
only the Father knows
the Son sits at the Right hand of the Most High

to make some of these fit the doctrine you have to go back and forth claiming this one Jesus said as a man, this one He said as the Most High, if Jesus was going to have different meanings for His teachings dependent on what natures He spoke it from He would have explained that. none of the Apostles ever indicate His teachings have these duel meanings.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 01:08 AM
your OP proves that the Son is greater than all men, the prophets and angels. but to make Jesus the Most High opens up issues with so many other scriptures.
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
the Father is greater than the Son
only the Father knows
the Son sits at the Right hand of the Most High

to make some of these fit the doctrine you have to go back and forth claiming this one Jesus said as a man, this one He said as the Most High, if Jesus was going to have different meanings for His teachings dependent on what natures He spoke it from He would have explained that. none of the Apostles ever indicate His teachings have these duel meanings.

Cough *


Briefly:

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

The greatest love is self-sacrificial love.

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

God is love, and that includes self-sacrificial love.

Let's suggest that Jesus isn't God. The result is absurd:

a) Jesus has performed a greater love than God has
b) God has failed to demonstrate self-sacrificial love
c) God's love is selfish

a), b), and c) are neatly resolved if Jesus is God.

What you're doing is confusing the Scriptural reality that God is presented as a Trinity, with the doctrine of the Trinity's attempt to make sense of this reality, e.g. if Jesus is God, and the Father is God, but they are distinct, then how do we make sense of this? You might disagree with the doctrines formulation, but then you're disagreeing with the doctrine, not the Scriptural reality.

jayne
Nov 9th 2016, 01:41 AM
your OP proves that the Son is greater than all men, the prophets and angels. but to make Jesus the Most High opens up issues with so many other scriptures.

I give up. How you get that the OP verses are talking about men, prophets, and angels - I will never understand. They cannot be anymore explicit than they are.

Jesus doesn't speak from "different natures". He doesn't contradict his own word.

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 03:16 AM
I give up. How you get that the OP verses are talking about men, prophets, and angels - I will never understand. They cannot be anymore explicit than they are.
the scriptures you posted in the OP, thats what they mean to me, like i said, if your going to take those and use them to make the Son the Most High then it cause problems with many other scriptures.


Jesus doesn't speak from "different natures". He doesn't contradict his own word.

i agree but thats not what others say when explaining some of these issues such as "the Father is greater than the Son"

ChangedByHim
Nov 9th 2016, 03:28 AM
the words of Jesus is from the pit of hell??

See that's the problem. I write one thing and you change it. The same thing that you do with God's Word. You're a false teacher who has come on this forum to deceive people.

keck553
Nov 9th 2016, 03:57 AM
Jesus was given authority to do that, man has no such authority. Jesus was not taught by man, He was taught by the Father just like He said.

Then why did Hillel cite it a generation before Jesus? By the time Jesus was asked the question, it was a common principal.

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 04:20 AM
I'm asking, because of the emote at the end of your reply, if you're leading jaybird along because the Scriptures posted appear to make Jesus out to be the Father, or if you're seriously suggesting that Jesus, and the Father, are identical (i.e. Modalism)?

I addressed to jaybird the scriptures that report Jesus stating he was the Father. I used the emote so that they would not think my remarks were adversarial.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 04:22 AM
I addressed to jaybird the scriptures that report Jesus stating he was the Father. I used the emote so that they would not think my remarks were adversarial.

So you're a modalist? You don't think that Jesus qua the Son, is a distinct person from God the Father?

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 04:24 AM
See that's the problem. I write one thing and you change it. The same thing that you do with God's Word. You're a false teacher who has come on this forum to deceive people.

you failed to give an example of what your talking about so how exactly am i supposed to respond??

so do you actually have an example of how i changes the Lords word or you just gonna call me names?

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 9th 2016, 04:26 AM
Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 04:35 AM
Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Said another way, who does Jesus say He is?

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 04:35 AM
So you're a modalist? You don't think that Jesus qua the Son, is a distinct person from God the Father?
God tells us there is but He. Hear oh Israel our God our God is one.

Jesus was human born of the powers and essence and will of God the Spirit. He was indwelt by God's holy spirit at baptism. All this is scripture accounting of Jesus ministry and its beginning and his origin on earth.

I would need be a polytheist to believe there are two separate entities on earth as in Heaven and with or of God in order to believe in two other separate beings that exist outside of The One Spirit.

I believe when God said in the beginning of his word as The Word that He is One and a Spirit that that precludes any later inference of three separate beings.
Am I a Modalist? I am a bible believing Christian in relationship with my Father.
And as such I do not see Trinity in his word. Not anywhere in scripture does that word appear.

In the beginning of his Word the oneness of God did. By his own statement to that effect.

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 04:36 AM
Then why did Hillel cite it a generation before Jesus? By the time Jesus was asked the question, it was a common principal.

keck you lost me.

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

its the same in DT as it is when Jesus says it, nothing added or changed.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 04:42 AM
God tells us there is but He. Hear oh Israel our God our God is one.

Jesus was human born of the powers and essence and will of God the Spirit. He was indwelt by God's holy spirit at baptism. All this is scripture accounting of Jesus ministry and its beginning and his origin on earth.

I would need be a polytheist to believe there are two separate entities on earth as in Heaven and with or of God in order to believe in two other separate beings that exist outside of The One Spirit.

I believe when God said in the beginning of his word as The Word that He is One and a Spirit that that precludes any later inference of three separate beings.
Am I a Modalist? I am a bible believing Christian in relationship with my Father.
And as such I do not see Trinity in his word. Not anywhere in scripture does that word appear.

In the beginning of his Word the oneness of God did. By his own statement to that effect.

Modalism, and JW theology in one thread, at the same time -- go figure. I'll say more tomorrow, US election has blown my mind.

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 05:07 AM
Modalism, and JW theology in one thread, at the same time -- go figure. I'll say more tomorrow, US election has blown my mind. To correct your misunderstanding. I am not a JW either. Please do not attach to me what I have said is not my belief. Thank you.

ChangedByHim
Nov 9th 2016, 05:54 AM
you failed to give an example of what your talking about so how exactly am i supposed to respond??

so do you actually have an example of how i changes the Lords word or you just gonna call me names?
If you had a heart to learn I would teach you. But you don't. You're here to deceive. Others can post verse after verse if they choose. You deny the deity of Christ and claim He is a created being. I call heretic. You've had more than two admonitions here, so I reject you according to the Word.

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 06:03 AM
If you had a heart to learn I would teach you. But you don't. You're here to deceive. Others can post verse after verse if they choose. You deny the deity of Christ and claim He is a created being. I call heretic. You've had more than two admonitions here, so I reject you according to the Word.

so in other words, no you dont have an example and your just gonna call me names, interesting . . .

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 06:12 AM
If you had a heart to learn I would teach you. But you don't. You're here to deceive. Others can post verse after verse if they choose. You deny the deity of Christ and claim He is a created being. I call heretic. You've had more than two admonitions here, so I reject you according to the Word.

What is your understanding of, created being?

ChangedByHim
Nov 9th 2016, 06:35 AM
What is your understanding of, created being?

It's self-explanatory. I.e., anyone who is not the Creator.

ProDeo
Nov 9th 2016, 07:22 AM
so in other words, no you dont have an example
On top of my head.

John 6:58 - Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

So who is this person that existed before Gen 1:1 ?

To be read in context, John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 12:25 PM
To correct your misunderstanding. I am not a JW either. Please do not attach to me what I have said is not my belief. Thank you.

You would be the 'Modalism' of that sentence, Jaybird the 'JW theology'. Unless you think Jesus is a created being, in which case you're closer to JW theology than you might think.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 9th 2016, 02:22 PM
What is your understanding of, created being?

Do you believe that Jesus is a created being?

keck553
Nov 9th 2016, 02:37 PM
keck you lost me.

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

its the same in DT as it is when Jesus says it, nothing added or changed.

Gee, you forgot the second greatest commandmenr. What did Hillel say it was?

David Taylor
Nov 9th 2016, 02:47 PM
the words of Jesus is from the pit of hell??

Jesus' own words show He is eternal YHWH God Almighty, the I AM that I AM.

Jesus stated that He pre-existed the creation; sharing the glory with the Father.
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."


Jesus says He is not of this world, He came down from Heaven.
John 3:31 "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all."
John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven"
John 8:23 "And Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."


Jesus said He is the Almighty.
Revelation 1:7, 22:12 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen. behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. "


Jesus says He is the great I AM.
John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. "


The Pharisees acknowledged Jesus was claiming to be the Great IAM, and to pre-existed the time of Abraham, and attempted to stone Him for blasphemy in their disbelief.
They failed.
He Won.

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 03:56 PM
You would be the 'Modalism' of that sentence As I have said twice now I am not the Modalist in any sentence.




It's self-explanatory. I.e., anyone who is not the Creator. How did Mary beget Jesus?


Do you believe that Jesus is a created being? Revelation 3:14 , John 1:3.

Jesus was born of a sinless woman. He was imbued with the holy spirit of God at his baptism. And that is when his ministry began. There is no conflict in Jesus being created to be human by the Father through delivery as a newborn by his mother Mary. And his being imbued with the anointing of his Father after the ritual of baptism that washed from him his human identity and allowed the fullness of God's holy spirit to fill him entirely. That witnessed by those who attended the baptism would serve to reiterate Jesus' teachings about being born again.
Born of water and of spirit. Jesus lived by example the words he preached.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 04:00 PM
As I have said twice now I am not the Modalist in any sentence.

So you think that Jesus is not the Father?

clormond
Nov 9th 2016, 06:06 PM
Jesus' own words show He is eternal YHWH God Almighty, the I AM that I AM.

Jesus stated that He pre-existed the creation; sharing the glory with the Father.
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."


Jesus says He is not of this world, He came down from Heaven.
John 3:31 "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all."
John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven"
John 8:23 "And Jesus said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."


Jesus said He is the Almighty.
Revelation 1:7, 22:12 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen. behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. "


Jesus says He is the great I AM.
John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. "


The Pharisees acknowledged Jesus was claiming to be the Great IAM, and to pre-existed the time of Abraham, and attempted to stone Him for blasphemy in their disbelief.
They failed.
He Won.

may i copy and use this for a paper with your credits

ChangedByHim
Nov 9th 2016, 06:07 PM
How did Mary beget Jesus?

Before we do Incarnation 101 class, why don't you tell me your background...

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 06:10 PM
Before we do Incarnation 101 class, why don't you tell me your background...
Why would I need to do that in order to continue in this conversation?

jayne
Nov 9th 2016, 06:16 PM
Why would I need to do that in order to continue in this conversation?

Because you are being vague about what you believe - purposefully or not.

ChangedByHim
Nov 9th 2016, 06:36 PM
Why would I need to do that in order to continue in this conversation?
You don't have to. Sometimes it's helpful to know what someone has been taught in order to know where to start. Unlike some (whom I admire), I won't throw verses at you when all I see you and jaybird do is ignore them or twist them. I never try to teach someone who doesn't want to learn.

amazzin
Nov 9th 2016, 07:04 PM
Why would I need to do that in order to continue in this conversation?

Its what discussion boards are about. We're not asking you for you social security number and credit card details......

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 07:24 PM
You don't have to. Sometimes it's helpful to know what someone has been taught in order to know where to start. Unlike some (whom I admire), I won't throw verses at you when all I see you and jaybird do is ignore them or twist them. I never try to teach someone who doesn't want to learn. I would never permit myself to sit at the feet of someone who is an example of the sins God called great . Their own example teaches me not to trust they are able to deliver God's breath past their own hubris, egoism, and prideful arrogance that leads them to speak down to those they believe are uneducated to their standard.

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 07:25 PM
Because you are being vague about what you believe - purposefully or not.

I'm a bible believing Christian. Raised Baptist, followed the word and the Lord most of my life. I do not identify as Baptist today. But I remain a bible believing Christian.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 07:31 PM
I'm a bible believing Christian. Raised Baptist, followed the word and the Lord most of my life. I do not identify as Baptist today. But I remain a bible believing Christian.

You said in another thread that Jesus is the Father, but in this thread you're not a Modalist. What do you believe re: Jesus, His relation to the Father, etc.?

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 07:40 PM
You said in another thread that Jesus is the Father, but in this thread you're not a Modalist. What do you believe re: Jesus, His relation to the Father, etc.?

I stated that Jesus tells us he is the father. I did not conflate modalism with that fact.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 08:01 PM
I stated that Jesus tells us he is the father. I did not conflate modalism with that fact.

You'll have to explain how Jesus is the Father, but not in a Modalist way.

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 08:18 PM
You'll have to explain how Jesus is the Father, but not in a Modalist way.

You appear to have an obsession with false witness. I will say one last time and then I will no longer tolerate false accusations. I AM NOT A MODALIST!


And I do not have to explain a thing. If you are not aware of the bible scriptures that have been posted wherein Jesus tells you he is the Father that is your issue.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 08:26 PM
You appear to have an obsession with false witness. I will say one last time and then I will no longer tolerate false accusations. I AM NOT A MODALIST!

And I do not have to explain a thing. If you are not aware of the bible scriptures that have been posted wherein Jesus tells you he is the Father that is your issue.

You're saying that Jesus is the Father. That's traditionally Modalism. You're also saying that you're not a Modalist, so how are you conceiving of Jesus' divinity qua the Father, if you aren't doing so in a Modalist way? You merely pointing me to Scripture isn't helpful because you're not explaining how you understand those texts. What do you do, for instance, with texts like John 20? In other words, while you're taking things personally, I'm only trying to understand what the thinking behind your view is.

By the way, what's with all this 'false witness' stuff? Everyone can read my posts, so don't bother trying to make this out to be something it isn't.

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 09:33 PM
You're saying that Jesus is the Father. That's traditionally Modalism. You're also saying that you're not a Modalist, so how are you conceiving of Jesus' divinity qua the Father, if you aren't doing so in a Modalist way? You merely pointing me to Scripture isn't helpful because you're not explaining how you understand those texts. What do you do, for instance, with texts like John 20? In other words, while you're taking things personally, I'm only trying to understand what the thinking behind your view is.

By the way, what's with all this 'false witness' stuff? Everyone can read my posts, so don't bother trying to make this out to be something it isn't. That's ironic considering you've displayed a consistent effort to make me out to be someone I am not.

I suppose someone chronically opposed to Modalism would be able to see Modalism anywhere they choose to look. However, the only thing consistent about the teaching that Jesus was God is the scriptures themselves. Wherein Jesus himself states in different verses and in different ways that he is the Father.


Now, so as to dispense with this accusatory insistence you appear to have bearing false witness in calling me a modalist repeatedly and even after being told to stop, intellectual honesty would do an inventory of facts.

Which came first? Jesus teachings wherein he states he and the Father are one. That when his disciples had seen him they had seen the Father? Or, Sabellianism?

I'd be concerned with those who assume a polytheistic teaching in Christianity,which is pagan. That belief that there are three separate god's in heaven.


Rather than repeatedly making false accusations to the point of harassment against someone who reads the bible. And recognizes God himself said he is one. And Jesus himself said he is God.
If those are issues that offend because they are considered heresy then those who judged God's word heresy are the one with the issue.


I will never repeat this to you again. I am a bible believing Christian. I am not a modalist. If you insist on calling me a modalist again I will report you for harassment. And false witness. And so as to inform you as to what false witness means in the Christian tradition, in modern terms it means, liar.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 09:46 PM
That's ironic considering you've displayed a consistent effort to make me out to be someone I am not.

I suppose someone chronically opposed to Modalism would be able to see Modalism anywhere they choose to look. However, the only thing consistent about the teaching that Jesus was God is the scriptures themselves. Wherein Jesus himself states in different verses and in different ways that he is the Father.

Now, so as to dispense with this accusatory insistence you appear to have bearing false witness in calling me a modalist repeatedly and even after being told to stop, intellectual honesty would do an inventory of facts.

Which came first? Jesus teachings wherein he states he and the Father are one. That when his disciples had seen him they had seen the Father? Or, Sabellianism?

I'd be concerned with those who assume a polytheistic teaching in Christianity,which is pagan. That belief that there are three separate god's in heaven.

Rather than repeatedly making false accusations to the point of harassment against someone who reads the bible. And recognizes God himself said he is one. And Jesus himself said he is God.
If those are issues that offend because they are considered heresy then those who judged God's word heresy are the one with the issue.

I will never repeat this to you again. I am a bible believing Christian. I am not a modalist. If you insist on calling me a modalist again I will report you for harassment. And false witness. And so as to inform you as to what false witness means in the Christian tradition, in modern terms it means, liar.

That's not an answer to my question. How do you conceive of Jesus as the Father, but not in a Modalist way (and how do you deal with texts like John 20)?

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 9th 2016, 09:47 PM
That's not an answer to my question. How do you conceive of Jesus as the Father, but not in a Modalist way (and how do you deal with texts like John 20)?

God forgive you.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 09:50 PM
God forgive you.

That's also not an answer to my question. Report button is bottom left, by the way.

chad
Nov 9th 2016, 10:45 PM
Jesus was born of a sinless woman.

So your saying that Mary was without sin, do you have a scripture for this?




As I have said twice now I am not the Modalist in any sentence.



How did Mary beget Jesus?

Revelation 3:14 , John 1:3.

Jesus was born of a sinless woman. He was imbued with the holy spirit of God at his baptism. And that is when his ministry began. There is no conflict in Jesus being created to be human by the Father through delivery as a newborn by his mother Mary. And his being imbued with the anointing of his Father after the ritual of baptism that washed from him his human identity and allowed the fullness of God's holy spirit to fill him entirely. That witnessed by those who attended the baptism would serve to reiterate Jesus' teachings about being born again.
Born of water and of spirit. Jesus lived by example the words he preached.

paidforinfull
Nov 9th 2016, 10:58 PM
That's not an answer to my question. How do you conceive of Jesus as the Father, but not in a Modalist way (and how do you deal with texts like John 20)?
Sorry to jump into your conversation, but could you please clarify what the difference is between being a Modalist and believing the following verse:

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Tks,
B

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2016, 11:18 PM
Sorry to jump into your conversation, but could you please clarify what the difference is between being a Modalist and believing the following verse:

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Tks,
B

That's what I'm trying to find out. That verse doesn't say that Jesus is the Father, and those that claim that Jesus is the Father, usually do so re: Modalism, i.e., Jesus is one of the modes God reveals Himself through (the other two being the Father, and the Holy Spirit). What I'm trying to understand, is how one can claim that this verse declares Jesus identical with the Father, but not in a Modalistic way. The better understanding is that the 'one' in this verse refers to oneness of unity, purpose, and so on.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 9th 2016, 11:19 PM
One is essence, not in person.

keck553
Nov 9th 2016, 11:19 PM
Sorry to jump into your conversation, but could you please clarify what the difference is between being a Modalist and believing the following verse:

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Tks,
B

Jesus would have used the same word we read God describe Himself in Deuteronomy 6: Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad (one). (I and my Father are "echad.")

There is no english equivalent to "echad" in this context, but it is close to "complex unity," somewhat like a cluster of grapes, but there is no exact analog in creation to the Godhead. (God is one in three seperate persons).

Here is the definition of modalism:

In Christianity, Sabellianism in the Eastern church or Patripassianism in the Western church (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian or anti-trinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son, and Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead—that there are no real or substantial differences among the three, such that there is no substantial identity for the Spirit or the Son. (wiki)

jaybird
Nov 9th 2016, 11:38 PM
Gee, you forgot the second greatest commandmenr. What did Hillel say it was?

love the Lord, love your fellow man.

now help me out on the point your making. sorry i get lost sometimes.

divaD
Nov 9th 2016, 11:45 PM
Sorry to jump into your conversation, but could you please clarify what the difference is between being a Modalist and believing the following verse:

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Tks,
B

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Let's look at another passage though not a parallel account, but to only try and determine what John 10:30 is likely meaning overall.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Would you agree the same thing is in mind per the following? I and my Father are one....even as we are one.

The reason I ask, if we take John 10:30 to be meaning Jesus and the Father are meaning these are the same person, it would have to mean the same thing in John 17:22 when it says...even as we are one.

This causes an absurdity if the texts are understood in this sense. That being with this part...that they may be one. The part that follows that, even as we are one, if that is to be understood as literally meaning Jesus and the Father are one and the same person, the same has to apply to 'that they may be one', that these are all the same person too, thus the absurdity.


So actually, IMO anyway, John 17:20-23 fills us in in pretty good detail as to what Jesus was ultimately meaning in John 10:30 when He said I and my Father are one.

keck553
Nov 9th 2016, 11:47 PM
love the Lord, love your fellow man.

now help me out on the point your making. sorry i get lost sometimes.

"love your neighbor" as the second greatest commandment is not sola scriptura in the TeNaKh, yet Hillel (a Biblical Scholar) drew it out of God's Word through the same kind of exegesis of Scripture as the Triuine God is drawn from. And Jesus affirmed his exegesis. Jesus didn't create the weight of the commandment, the Torah did, yet we don't read anywhere in the Torah that Leviticus 19:18 is only second to Deuteronomy 6.

jaybird
Nov 10th 2016, 01:16 AM
"love your neighbor" as the second greatest commandment is not sola scriptura in the TeNaKh, yet Hillel (a Biblical Scholar) drew it out of God's Word through the same kind of exegesis of Scripture as the Triuine God is drawn from. And Jesus affirmed his exegesis. Jesus didn't create the weight of the commandment, the Torah did, yet we don't read anywhere in the Torah that Leviticus 19:18 is only second to Deuteronomy 6.

ok i think i get what ur saying. before Jesus was tested on the greatest commandment, there was nothing written saying "this is the 1st greatest, this is the 2nd greatest" ? the conclusion was made by studying other scriptures?
correct?

paidforinfull
Nov 10th 2016, 01:27 AM
That's what I'm trying to find out. That verse doesn't say that Jesus is the Father, and those that claim that Jesus is the Father, usually do so re: Modalism, i.e., Jesus is one of the modes God reveals Himself through (the other two being the Father, and the Holy Spirit). What I'm trying to understand, is how one can claim that this verse declares Jesus identical with the Father, but not in a Modalistic way. The better understanding is that the 'one' in this verse refers to oneness of unity, purpose, and so on.

OK - I see what you mean now.


Jesus would have used the same word we read God describe Himself in Deuteronomy 6: Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad (one). (I and my Father are "echad.")

There is no english equivalent to "echad" in this context, but it is close to "complex unity," somewhat like a cluster of grapes, but there is no exact analog in creation to the Godhead. (God is one in three seperate persons).

Here is the definition of modalism:

In Christianity, Sabellianism in the Eastern church or Patripassianism in the Western church (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian or anti-trinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son, and Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead—that there are no real or substantial differences among the three, such that there is no substantial identity for the Spirit or the Son. (wiki)

Thanks for the explanation, keck :).


John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Let's look at another passage though not a parallel account, but to only try and determine what John 10:30 is likely meaning overall.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Would you agree the same thing is in mind per the following? I and my Father are one....even as we are one.

The reason I ask, if we take John 10:30 to be meaning Jesus and the Father are meaning these are the same person, it would have to mean the same thing in John 17:22 when it says...even as we are one.

This causes an absurdity if the texts are understood in this sense. That being with this part...that they may be one. The part that follows that, even as we are one, if that is to be understood as literally meaning Jesus and the Father are one and the same person, the same has to apply to 'that they may be one', that these are all the same person too, thus the absurdity.


So actually, IMO anyway, John 17:20-23 fills us in in pretty good detail as to what Jesus was ultimately meaning in John 10:30 when He said I and my Father are one.

Thanks for your answers, guys.
I wasn't sure what Modalism really means, but I get it now.

IMO the Doctrine of the Trinity is complicated.

God bless,
B.

Athanasius
Nov 10th 2016, 01:49 AM
IMO the Doctrine of the Trinity is complicated.

You're not the only one to think that ;)

keck553
Nov 10th 2016, 01:50 AM
That's ironic considering you've displayed a consistent effort to make me out to be someone I am not.

I suppose someone chronically opposed to Modalism would be able to see Modalism anywhere they choose to look. However, the only thing consistent about the teaching that Jesus was God is the scriptures themselves. Wherein Jesus himself states in different verses and in different ways that he is the Father.


Now, so as to dispense with this accusatory insistence you appear to have bearing false witness in calling me a modalist repeatedly and even after being told to stop, intellectual honesty would do an inventory of facts.

Which came first? Jesus teachings wherein he states he and the Father are one. That when his disciples had seen him they had seen the Father? Or, Sabellianism?

I'd be concerned with those who assume a polytheistic teaching in Christianity,which is pagan. That belief that there are three separate god's in heaven.


Rather than repeatedly making false accusations to the point of harassment against someone who reads the bible. And recognizes God himself said he is one. And Jesus himself said he is God.
If those are issues that offend because they are considered heresy then those who judged God's word heresy are the one with the issue.


I will never repeat this to you again. I am a bible believing Christian. I am not a modalist. If you insist on calling me a modalist again I will report you for harassment. And false witness. And so as to inform you as to what false witness means in the Christian tradition, in modern terms it means, liar.

The very definition of modelism is the statement that Jesus is the father.

keck553
Nov 10th 2016, 01:55 AM
ok i think i get what ur saying. before Jesus was tested on the greatest commandment, there was nothing written saying "this is the 1st greatest, this is the 2nd greatest" ? the conclusion was made by studying other scriptures?
correct?

Jesus wasn't being "tested." As a travelling sage, He was asked questions usually in the context of different factions of Judaism arguing doctrine. That was the culture back then.

But yes, the e exegesis that brought the second greatest commandment as a summary of the Torah is the example I used.

keck553
Nov 10th 2016, 01:57 AM
You're not the only one to think that ;)

It could be characterized as complicated. I just don't believe our limited minds have the capacity to comphrehend it. Like looking through the glass darkly.....or whatever that is.

jaybird
Nov 10th 2016, 02:13 AM
IMO the Doctrine of the Trinity is complicated.

God bless,
B.

Luther said the same thing.

mailmandan
Nov 10th 2016, 11:40 AM
When I was a child, I was very confused about the Trinity. I saw the Father as all powerful, almighty God, yet I saw Jesus as "junior" to God the Father, but still very powerful and I saw the Holy Spirit as a bunch of guardian angels. Talk about confused! Eventually, I came to understand there is one God in essence/nature (the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, so they are co-equal) yet they are three distinct persons.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2016, 01:41 PM
That's what I'm trying to find out. That verse doesn't say that Jesus is the Father, and those that claim that Jesus is the Father, usually do so re: Modalism, i.e., Jesus is one of the modes God reveals Himself through (the other two being the Father, and the Holy Spirit). What I'm trying to understand, is how one can claim that this verse declares Jesus identical with the Father, but not in a Modalistic way. The better understanding is that the 'one' in this verse refers to oneness of unity, purpose, and so on.

In that verse, Jesus is not saying that he is the Father. But neither is he saying that he and the Father are of the same essence. What he means to say is, "I am acting in the role of the father to such a great degree that what I represent to Israel, and the other nations, is indistinguishable from the Father with respect to the truth, his will for mankind, his character, his love, his commitments, his faithfulness and etc."

We know Jesus is NOT the father because Jesus has his own will and speaks to the Father using object/subject language. Consider the moments before the cross when Jesus prays, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” This is a clear indication that Jesus and the Father are distinct individuals each with his own will, and that Jesus is prepared to obey the Father, even at the cost of his own life. The son is voluntarily subordinate to the Father.

1Corinthians 15:27-28
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Here we see a clear indication that not only does Jesus have his own will, he remains subjected to the Father in all things.

Athanasius
Nov 10th 2016, 01:44 PM
In that verse, Jesus is not saying that he is the Father. But neither is he saying that he and the Father are of the same essence. What he means to say is, "I am acting in the role of the father to such a great degree that what I represent to Israel, and the other nations, is indistinguishable from the Father with respect to the truth, his will for mankind, his character, his love, his commitments, his faithfulness and etc."

We know Jesus is NOT the father because Jesus has his own will and speaks to the Father using object/subject language. Consider the moments before the cross when Jesus prays, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” This is a clear indication that Jesus and the Father are distinct individuals each with his own will, and that Jesus is prepared to obey the Father, even at the cost of his own life. The son is voluntarily subordinate to the Father.

1Corinthians 15:27-28
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Here we see a clear indication that not only does Jesus have his own will, he remains subjected to the Father in all things.

Yes :)

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 10th 2016, 02:15 PM
When I was a child, I was very confused about the Trinity. I saw the Father as all powerful, almighty God, yet I saw Jesus as "junior" to God the Father, but still very powerful and I saw the Holy Spirit as a bunch of guardian angels. Talk about confused! Eventually, I came to understand there is one God in essence/nature (the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, so they are co-equal) yet they are three distinct persons.

Careful, or you could be harassed for speaking in modalism.

One of the best descriptions I read to outline the powers of God in this regard was in using human social identities. For instance, David is a husband. He's also a lawyer, and he's a parent.

Is David three different men? Or is he one man acting and serving in three different areas of responsibility?

While I've met christian types that attempt to argue from a polytheist pagan idea that three deities in heaven who are all unique in themselves. This of course contradicts the passages in Deuteronomy 6:4.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 10th 2016, 02:19 PM
Careful, or you could be harassed for speaking in modalism.

One of the best descriptions I read to outline the powers of God in this regard was in using human social identities. For instance, David is a husband. He's also a lawyer, and he's a parent.

Is David three different men? Or is he one man acting and serving in three different areas of responsibility?

While I've met christian types that attempt to argue from a polytheist pagan idea that three deities in heaven who are all unique in themselves. This of course contradicts the passages in Deuteronomy 6:4.

No contradiction at all.

And what you are describing is classic MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODALISM, Patrick.

Athanasius
Nov 10th 2016, 02:20 PM
Careful, or you could be harassed for speaking in modalism.

One of the best descriptions I read to outline the powers of God in this regard was in using human social identities. For instance, David is a husband. He's also a lawyer, and he's a parent.

Is David three different men? Or is he one man acting and serving in three different areas of responsibility?

Actually, that's an analogy for Modalism.

By the way, the only time I implied you were a modalist, was in post #66 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/269371-Jesus-is-God-Explicitly-So?p=3346753#post3346753) (and your latest post doesn't suggest otherwise). Your 'harassment' is purely imagined.


While I've met christian types that attempt to argue from a polytheist pagan idea that three deities in heaven who are all unique in themselves. This of course contradicts the passages in Deuteronomy 6:4.

That sounds like an Islamic misconception of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Trinitarianism is not Tritheism.

BrianW
Nov 10th 2016, 02:30 PM
Turkey's By The Road,

That's enough of the harassment claims on the open board. There has been no harassment here whatsoever so, seriously, stop claiming it's being done to you please.

And StewWardsHip and Athanasius are correct. What you are describing as "One of the best descriptions I read to outline the powers of God" ...is an analogy for Modalism. So you're not being harassed people are pointing out your error in an attempt to edify.

That's part and parcel of posting in Bible Chat. We edify one another in love.

divaD
Nov 10th 2016, 03:11 PM
In that verse, Jesus is not saying that he is the Father. But neither is he saying that he and the Father are of the same essence. What he means to say is, "I am acting in the role of the father to such a great degree that what I represent to Israel, and the other nations, is indistinguishable from the Father with respect to the truth, his will for mankind, his character, his love, his commitments, his faithfulness and etc."

We know Jesus is NOT the father because Jesus has his own will and speaks to the Father using object/subject language. Consider the moments before the cross when Jesus prays, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” This is a clear indication that Jesus and the Father are distinct individuals each with his own will, and that Jesus is prepared to obey the Father, even at the cost of his own life. The son is voluntarily subordinate to the Father.

1Corinthians 15:27-28
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Here we see a clear indication that not only does Jesus have his own will, he remains subjected to the Father in all things.

To further add to what you said, and I agree with you BTW, there is the following as well.

John 6:38 *For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


If Jesus and the Father are one and the same, then this verse comes across nonsensical if that were the case.

David Taylor
Nov 10th 2016, 05:01 PM
While I've met christian types that attempt to argue from a polytheist pagan idea that three deities in heaven who are all unique in themselves. This of course contradicts the passages in Deuteronomy 6:4.

This difference in the Christian Trinity, and three dieties in heaven who are unique to themselves is this.

Jupiter, Apollo, and Mercury may all be three separate and distinct dieties in heaven that are unique to themselves; yet they are not the same substance or character or will. They all act individual and are able to be in conflict, disagreement, and discord one among the other. They are really just 3 deities within Panthiesm, nothing like the Christian Trinity.

In the Christian Trinity, there are three members that are unique to themselves; however, they are of the same single divine substance; and thereby they are always 100% without conflict, without disagreement, and without discord one among the other. While distinct, they are the same God in substance, will, and agreement.

keck553
Nov 10th 2016, 05:03 PM
Careful, or you could be harassed for speaking in modalism.

One of the best descriptions I read to outline the powers of God in this regard was in using human social identities. For instance, David is a husband. He's also a lawyer, and he's a parent.

Is David three different men? Or is he one man acting and serving in three different areas of responsibility?

While I've met christian types that attempt to argue from a polytheist pagan idea that three deities in heaven who are all unique in themselves. This of course contradicts the passages in Deuteronomy 6:4.

Again, you are describing modalism.

I confess, I I've done this analogy myself without even knowing modalism existed - using myself as an example. For example, I have the roles of a father, a husband and roles in various natural gifts God gave me. I also have different roles at work, but I am one person with different roles. It was my error to cast my own self as an analog to the Godhead, but now I understand my error was not based in rebellion, rather on my lack of understanding / acceptance of correct doctrine. Yet, The Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He will guide us into all truth when we seek Him and listen to Him. Sometimes this takes fasting (as we read about over and over in the BIble. As to doctrine and doubt, God has plenty of Grace to see us through our errors - more so than our brothers and sisters sometimes, so it is always acceptable to test things, and I eventually discovered my error is that my development of my own form of modalism was from my intellect and my own human limitations.


The problem I found with my own modalism theory is that with all my different roles, I am not omniscient. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is. I am not, so in each role, I can not simultaneously fulfill the other roles. God can. And does. We have no analog to this mystery, and as someone pointed out earlier no other religion can reconcile this so they typically assign our Triune revelation to polytheism. I can't speak to their error except to understand their natural minds cannot accept that which they can not rationally reproduce the analog in the creation which is finite (has a beginning and an end).

Our finite minds can not conceive eternity, can not conceive the idea of fully human/fully God, and we certainly can not comprehend what "glory" Jesus "left behind" when the Word became flesh.

But above all, I am a servant of Christ, and that is not a role; rather it is who He allowed me to be through His Son, Jesus Messiah. And in that I have no "roles." I am His no matter what I am doing in my earthly and finite roles.

divaD
Nov 10th 2016, 05:48 PM
In that verse, Jesus is not saying that he is the Father. But neither is he saying that he and the Father are of the same essence. What he means to say is, "I am acting in the role of the father to such a great degree that what I represent to Israel, and the other nations, is indistinguishable from the Father with respect to the truth, his will for mankind, his character, his love, his commitments, his faithfulness and etc."

We know Jesus is NOT the father because Jesus has his own will and speaks to the Father using object/subject language. Consider the moments before the cross when Jesus prays, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” This is a clear indication that Jesus and the Father are distinct individuals each with his own will, and that Jesus is prepared to obey the Father, even at the cost of his own life. The son is voluntarily subordinate to the Father.

1Corinthians 15:27-28
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Here we see a clear indication that not only does Jesus have his own will, he remains subjected to the Father in all things.

While I'm thinking about it, there are titles for God throughout the Bible, one of them being "the most high God". The question is, whom is the most high God referring to? The Father? The Son? The Holy Spirit? All three?

Mark 5:7 *And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.


If we look at this verse for instance, it seems to indicate the Father is meaning the most high God. And if so, what does that seem to indicate about the Son and Holy Spirit then? You can't have 3 most high Gods, right?

So wondering what your or anyone elses thoughts on this might be?

keck553
Nov 10th 2016, 06:01 PM
While I'm thinking about it, there are titles for God throughout the Bible, one of them being "the most high God". The question is, whom is the most high God referring to? The Father? The Son? The Holy Spirit? All three?

Mark 5:7 *And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.


If we look at this verse for instance, it seems to indicate the Father is meaning the most high God. And if so, what does that seem to indicate about the Son and Holy Spirit then? You can't have 3 most high Gods, right?

So wondering what your or anyone elses thoughts on this might be?

I sense eisegesis going on here.....Most of these "titles" are descriptions of God's character. It would benefit you if you learned a little Hebrew.

For example

Jesus is El Shaddai
The Father is El Shaddai
The Spirit is El Shaddai

Jesus is El Elyon
as is The Father. As is The Spirit. If you care deny that point using Scripture, please proceed.

That is why God describes Himself as "Echad" in Deuteronomy 6

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 10th 2016, 07:05 PM
MOST HIGH....

as in higher that Baal, Dagon, Ashtoreth, etc.

Higher than the gods worshipped by pagans.

ProDeo
Nov 10th 2016, 07:30 PM
One of the best descriptions I read to outline the powers of God in this regard was in using human social identities. For instance, David is a husband. He's also a lawyer, and he's a parent.
It's a good modalist analogy for starters. The perfect analogy for the Trinity does not exist.

Trinity - God exists eternally in 3 distinct persons.

This is incomprehensible for the human mind, I have to meet the first one who does.

Athanasius
Nov 10th 2016, 07:33 PM
MOST HIGH....

as in higher that Baal, Dagon, Ashtoreth, etc.

Higher than the gods worshipped by pagans.

Careful, or armies of Jaffa are gonna get you.

BrianW
Nov 10th 2016, 07:40 PM
The perfect analogy for the Trinity does not exist.


Exactly. Every time one crops up it's wrong because there is no analogy that our minds can create that actually explains it. Not all analogies are bad it's just that all of them get it wrong in some way.

chad
Nov 10th 2016, 08:02 PM
While on earth Jesus humbled himself and became a servant. While on earth he was made a little lower than angels until his death and resurrection.

If on earth, Jesus he had exalted himself as higher than God the father while in the form of a man, than he could not be an example to us. He would have been like Satan or any other man who wanted to become God.


(Phil 2:5 KJV) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

(Phil 2:6 KJV) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(Phil 2:7 KJV) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

(Phil 2:8 KJV) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

(Phil 2:9 KJV) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

(Phil 2:10 KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

(Phil 2:11 KJV) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



However, Jesus allowed the father to exalt him at the chosen time...

(Heb 2:9 NIV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

(Heb 2:10 NIV) In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

(Heb 2:11 NIV) Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.






While I'm thinking about it, there are titles for God throughout the Bible, one of them being "the most high God". The question is, whom is the most high God referring to? The Father? The Son? The Holy Spirit? All three?

Mark 5:7 *And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.


If we look at this verse for instance, it seems to indicate the Father is meaning the most high God. And if so, what does that seem to indicate about the Son and Holy Spirit then? You can't have 3 most high Gods, right?

So wondering what your or anyone elses thoughts on this might be?

divaD
Nov 10th 2016, 08:19 PM
I sense eisegesis going on here.....Most of these "titles" are descriptions of God's character. It would benefit you if you learned a little Hebrew.

For example

Jesus is El Shaddai
The Father is El Shaddai
The Spirit is El Shaddai

Jesus is El Elyon
as is The Father. As is The Spirit. If you care deny that point using Scripture, please proceed.

That is why God describes Himself as "Echad" in Deuteronomy 6


Probably could have done without this part..."I sense eisegesis going on here"...even if it's the case here, which it might be. That aside, why can't that title also be understood as positionally?

And per the Scripture I used...Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not....how can the most high God be describing the characteristic of God when the text is saying Jesus is the Son of the most high God? Is Jesus not the Son of the Father? Would that not make the most high God here meaning the Father then?

divaD
Nov 10th 2016, 08:26 PM
While on earth Jesus humbled himself and became a servant. While on earth he was made a little lower than angels until his death and resurrection.

If on earth, Jesus he had exalted himself as higher than God the father while in the form of a man, than he could not be an example to us. He would have been like Satan or any other man who wanted to become God.


(Phil 2:5 KJV) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

(Phil 2:6 KJV) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(Phil 2:7 KJV) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

(Phil 2:8 KJV) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

(Phil 2:9 KJV) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

(Phil 2:10 KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

(Phil 2:11 KJV) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



However, Jesus allowed the father to exalt him at the chosen time...

(Heb 2:9 NIV) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

(Heb 2:10 NIV) In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

(Heb 2:11 NIV) Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

Nothing offhand I can think of that I might disagree with you about here. But keeping in mind that the passage I used, that it was a spirit being acknowledging Jesus as the Son of the most high God, what exactly was the point being made here if not that the most high God is referring to the Father?

keck553
Nov 10th 2016, 08:29 PM
Probably could have done without this part..."I sense eisegesis going on here"...even if it's the case here, which it might be. That aside, why can't that title also be understood as positionally?

And per the Scripture I used...Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not....how can the most high God be describing the characteristic of God when the text is saying Jesus is the Son of the most high God? Is Jesus not the Son of the Father? Would that not make the most high God here meaning the Father then?

This is an OT reference, as another poster said, in comparison to Baal, etc.

Eisegesis is the process of implanting extra Biblical ideas into Scripture. The truine doctine is foundational to proper worship. We are not allowed to worship anthing less than God, so if Jesus is not fully God and even allows a person to worship Him, He becomes an enemy of God.

It's just that simple.

chad
Nov 10th 2016, 08:39 PM
Well, this is just my opinion, but I think the reason Jesus referred to himself as the son of man, rather than the son of God is that he humbled himself and made himself of no reputation (Phil 2:7) - even though he was the son of God.

The demons knew who Jesus was, they addressed Jesus by his title - son of God.

(Mat 8:29 NIV) "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"



Jesus came to do the will of the father.

(John 6:38 NIV) For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

(John 6:39 NIV) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

(John 6:40 NIV) For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

(John 6:41 NIV) At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."

(John 6:42 NIV) They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"


And as a result Jesus was exalted and seated at the right hand of God.

(Acts 2:33 NIV) Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

(Mark 16:19 NIV) After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

(Rom 8:34 NIV) Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

(Col 3:1 NIV) Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.



Nothing offhand I can think of that I might disagree with you about here. But keeping in mind that the passage I used, that it was a spirit being acknowledging Jesus as the Son of the most high God, what exactly was the point being made here if not that the most high God is referring to the Father?

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 10th 2016, 09:04 PM
It's a good modalist analogy for starters. The perfect analogy for the Trinity does not exist.

Trinity - God exists eternally in 3 distinct persons.

This is incomprehensible for the human mind, I have to meet the first one who does.

Whatever it takes to reach the saint God sees fit to apprehend it. Modalist it is. By God's will. Three powers from one source that gives them power. Just as Jesus was begat upon Mary and thus was the son of man. The man creation in the beginning being Jesus was the second Adam.

All origin is from the first source. God the spirit. The I Am that made all flesh from his own essence and in the image and likeness of that powerful spirit.

To God be the glory. Amen.

CadyandZoe
Nov 10th 2016, 09:08 PM
While I'm thinking about it, there are titles for God throughout the Bible, one of them being "the most high God". The question is, whom is the most high God referring to? The Father? The Son? The Holy Spirit? All three?

Mark 5:7 *And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.


If we look at this verse for instance, it seems to indicate the Father is meaning the most high God. And if so, what does that seem to indicate about the Son and Holy Spirit then? You can't have 3 most high Gods, right?

So wondering what your or anyone elses thoughts on this might be?

The phrase, "the most high God" is a refinement of the polytheistic worldview, which supposes many gods. Among the many gods there arises, typically after a war among the gods for dominance, a supreme ruler or leader among them. We Christians understand that, in fact, only one living and true God exists. But those of other cultures believe(d) that more than one god exists, and either they worked together or they competed against each other.

Abraham came out of a polytheistic culture and after Yahweh revealed himself to Abraham, he knew him and interacted with him as "God almighty or God most high." Apparently, that was sufficient because Yahweh never corrected Abraham or tried to teach him about monotheism. It was sufficient, during the time of Abraham, that he know God as "El Shaddai" or God Almighty.

Moses, on the other hand, learned the true nature of God at the burning bush.

Exodus 6:2-4
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord [YHWH]; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by My name, Lord [YHWH], I did not make Myself known to them. 4 I also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they sojourned.

The translation of [YHWH] is uncertain, but I heard that it roughly means "I am he who is" with a focus on his self-existence. If this translation of Yahweh is correct, this is the first time that human beings learn about the aseity of God. Yahweh isn't just one of the many God's that exist, he is a transcendent and self-existent being without any equal, since he transcends the created order. If there are other gods, all of them exist within this created order and they exist along with us in our reality. If this reality were to suddenly disappear, all of the gods among the pantheon would disappear with it, but Yahweh would remain because he depends only on himself for his existence.

With regard to the man from the tombs, it's possible that this man was himself a polytheist, and it's also possible that the demons were not interested in correcting the man's theology. He understood that gods exist, and that Jesus was the son of the most high God. This was sufficient enough information for the man and the demons to fear him.

The name "son of God" comes from 2Samuel 7,

The Lord also declares to you that the Lord will make a house for you. 12 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, 15 but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.”’”

Here the Lord has promised that David's kingdom will last forever. David will have a son, Solomon, and the Lord will be a father to him and he will be a son to Yahweh. And the Lord promises to chastise Solomon and teach him. Moreover, every human son of David, who becomes king of Israel will be considered a "son of God." Solomon was a son of God. Rehoboam was a son of God etc. down through history. Finally, Jesus is also the Son of God, the king of Israel. The Jews living during Jesus' time understood that these two references to Jesus, "The Son of God", and "The king of Israel" are synonymous and refer to the same person. For instance, we find this correlation in John's gospel.

John 1:49
Nathanael answered Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”

So then, when the demons refer to Jesus as "thou Son of the most high God", they aren't suggesting that Yahweh sired Jesus; they acknowledge that Yahweh has ordained Jesus to be his "son" in the same way that he designated Solomon to be his son, only we learn elsewhere that Jesus will be the Son, with a capital "S" that fulfills God's promise to David that his kingdom will last forever.

Pbminimum
Nov 10th 2016, 09:19 PM
That's also not an answer to my question. Report button is bottom left, by the way.

I did it for him.

Athanasius
Nov 10th 2016, 09:21 PM
I did it for him.

So did I:


Turkey's By The Road,

That's enough of the harassment claims on the open board. There has been no harassment here whatsoever so, seriously, stop claiming it's being done to you please.

And StewWardsHip and Athanasius are correct. What you are describing as "One of the best descriptions I read to outline the powers of God" ...is an analogy for Modalism. So you're not being harassed people are pointing out your error in an attempt to edify.

That's part and parcel of posting in Bible Chat. We edify one another in love.

keck553
Nov 10th 2016, 10:26 PM
Whatever it takes to reach the saint God sees fit to apprehend it. Modalist it is. By God's will. Three powers from one source that gives them power. Just as Jesus was begat upon Mary and thus was the son of man. The man creation in the beginning being Jesus was the second Adam.

All origin is from the first source. God the spirit. The I Am that made all flesh from his own essence and in the image and likeness of that powerful spirit.

To God be the glory. Amen.

This just sounds wierd to me....

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 10th 2016, 11:10 PM
This just sounds wierd to me....
How so? Please elaborate.

keck553
Nov 11th 2016, 12:39 AM
first sentence - God does not lie or deceive.
second sentence - not sure what you mean
third sentence - what is by God's will?
fourth sentence - three powers? what?
fifth sentence - did you mean Jesus was begat by Mary?
sixth sentence - "the man creation in the beginning being Jesus..." ???? That sounds like Mormon doctrine to me unless I mis-read it.
seventh sentence - contradicts with John 1 (all things were made through Jesus)

jaybird
Nov 11th 2016, 01:17 AM
Careful, or you could be harassed for speaking in modalism.


turkeys you have to cool down and not post things so highly offensive.

you might want to try falsely accusing others of being in a cult or straight up tell them their words are from "the pit of hell" this seems to be more acceptable.

Athanasius
Nov 11th 2016, 01:46 AM
first sentence - God does not lie or deceive.
second sentence - not sure what you mean
third sentence - what is by God's will?
fourth sentence - three powers? what?
fifth sentence - did you mean Jesus was begat by Mary?
sixth sentence - "the man creation in the beginning being Jesus..." ???? That sounds like Mormon doctrine to me unless I mis-read it.
seventh sentence - contradicts with John 1 (all things were made through Jesus)

The position appears to fall within JW or LDS thinking. It has it's own problems, though:

'Three powers from one source that gives them power. Just as Jesus was begat upon Mary and thus was the son of man.'

If she's saying that the Son is to the one source, as Jesus qua human is to Mary, then the implication is that Jesus is a created being. We also know that she believes that Jesus is the Father, which is incompatible with viewing Jesus as a created being -- so, how does she resolve the conflict?

It's also a bit odd to say: 'made all flesh from his own essence and in the image and likeness of that powerful spirit.' (1) 'all flesh' was made 'from [God's] own essence'? (2) why refer to God as 'that powerful spirit'? Even as a bit of poetic flair, it misses the mark. If the previous thought was potentially JW or LDS, this is in line with 'New Age' thought.

It would be interesting to hear more about how she's come in/to her views.

keck553
Nov 11th 2016, 01:48 AM
turkeys you have to cool down and not post things so highly offensive.

you might want to try falsely accusing others of being in a cult or straight up tell them their words are from "the pit of hell" this seems to be more acceptable.

wow, that's edifying.......

keck553
Nov 11th 2016, 01:51 AM
The position appears to fall within JW or LDS thinking. It has it's own problems, though:

'Three powers from one source that gives them power. Just as Jesus was begat upon Mary and thus was the son of man.'

If she's saying that the Son is to the one source, as Jesus qua human is to Mary, then the implication is that Jesus is a created being. We also know that she believes that Jesus is the Father, which is incompatible with viewing Jesus as a created being -- so, how does she resolve the conflict?

It's also a bit odd to say: 'made all flesh from his own essence and in the image and likeness of that powerful spirit.' (1) 'all flesh' was made 'from [God's] own essence'? (2) why refer to God as 'that powerful spirit'? Even as a bit of poetic flair, it misses the mark. If the previous thought was potentially JW or LDS, this is in line with 'New Age' thought.

It would be interesting to hear more about how she's come in/to her views.

Yeah, I'd like to see something laid out in full instead of peeking around a bush.

divaD
Nov 11th 2016, 04:38 AM
So then, when the demons refer to Jesus as "thou Son of the most high God", they aren't suggesting that Yahweh sired Jesus; they acknowledge that Yahweh has ordained Jesus to be his "son" in the same way that he designated Solomon to be his son, only we learn elsewhere that Jesus will be the Son, with a capital "S" that fulfills God's promise to David that his kingdom will last forever.

Everything you said prior to this I already understand pretty much like you. You say in this quote..."So then, when the demons refer to Jesus as "thou Son of the most high God", they aren't suggesting that Yahweh sired Jesus"...I fully agree since I see no reason to think they did. It seems to me two beings are in view here. One being the Son, the other being the most high God. That seems to suggest to me that that makes the most high God meaning the Father then. And if so, if the Father is the most high God, what does that make the Son then? But not meaning when the Son was dwelling on the earth in a human body when the demons initially said this to Him, but meaning Jesus' position as God in relation to the Father. Even though I'm currently trinitarian and have been ever since I can remember, I still find this subject a bit confusing at times.

chad
Nov 11th 2016, 07:02 AM
Just my opinion and thoughts ... The Father is greater than the son.

Earthly kings in the old testament sat on earthly thrones, when they died generally their son succeeded them.

God raised Jesus to life and he was exalted to the right hand of God. Because God is eternal, God can not die.

Where there is an eternal father, the eternal son cannot succeed him, for the heavenly father never dies. Therefore the son (Who is Jesus) is seated at the right hand of God. For Jesus is also eternal and also God, the son of God.


(Acts 2:32 NIV) God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

(Acts 2:33 NIV) Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.



(Luke 22:67 NIV) "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me,

(Luke 22:68 NIV) and if I asked you, you would not answer.

(Luke 22:69 NIV) But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

(Luke 22:70 NIV) They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."



Everything you said prior to this I already understand pretty much like you. You say in this quote..."So then, when the demons refer to Jesus as "thou Son of the most high God", they aren't suggesting that Yahweh sired Jesus"...I fully agree since I see no reason to think they did. It seems to me two beings are in view here. One being the Son, the other being the most high God. That seems to suggest to me that that makes the most high God meaning the Father then. And if so, if the Father is the most high God, what does that make the Son then? But not meaning when the Son was dwelling on the earth in a human body when the demons initially said this to Him, but meaning Jesus' position as God in relation to the Father. Even though I'm currently trinitarian and have been ever since I can remember, I still find this subject a bit confusing at times.

ProDeo
Nov 11th 2016, 07:45 AM
It's a good modalist analogy for starters. The perfect analogy for the Trinity does not exist.

Trinity - God exists eternally in 3 distinct persons.

This is incomprehensible for the human mind, I have to meet the first one who does.

Whatever it takes to reach the saint God sees fit to apprehend it. Modalist it is. By God's will. Three powers from one source that gives them power. Just as Jesus was begat upon Mary and thus was the son of man. The man creation in the beginning being Jesus was the second Adam.

All origin is from the first source. God the spirit. The I Am that made all flesh from his own essence and in the image and likeness of that powerful spirit.
In addition what I also was trying to say - but forgot - is that modalism doesn't deny but confirm the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So if someone throws the modalist word at you it's not mean spirited by definition, just to get the theory right.


To God be the glory. Amen.
Amen.

Athanasius
Nov 11th 2016, 12:07 PM
In addition what I also was trying to say - but forgot - is that modalism doesn't deny but confirm the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Quite right - it denies the very existence of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (they don't exist as they 'merely' forms of the Father).

CadyandZoe
Nov 11th 2016, 12:44 PM
Everything you said prior to this I already understand pretty much like you. You say in this quote..."So then, when the demons refer to Jesus as "thou Son of the most high God", they aren't suggesting that Yahweh sired Jesus"...I fully agree since I see no reason to think they did. It seems to me two beings are in view here. One being the Son, the other being the most high God. That seems to suggest to me that that makes the most high God meaning the Father then. And if so, if the Father is the most high God, what does that make the Son then? But not meaning when the Son was dwelling on the earth in a human body when the demons initially said this to Him, but meaning Jesus' position as God in relation to the Father. Even though I'm currently trinitarian and have been ever since I can remember, I still find this subject a bit confusing at times.

I understand. My advice, for what it's worth, is to compare what Jesus said about himself with what the Apostles said about him, trusting that the Apostles have the same picture but describe that same picture using their own wording. For example, in Colossians Paul describes Jesus as "image of God." This gives us another piece of data to consider. In John's Gospel, he describes Jesus as the "exegesis" of God. In his first letter he speaks about Jesus as "our advocate". In the book of Hebrews, Paul describes Jesus as "the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature." And then there is Philippians the second chapter. All of these passages give answers to our question, but they also raise more questions.

Pbminimum
Nov 11th 2016, 01:55 PM
So did I:

I can relate to him a tad, because you labeled me the same way. And you were wrong to do it.

If you read Brian's last sentence on the quote you see " We edify one another in love"..... Can you really say you were doing that ? Or were you just trying to prove a point ?

Athanasius
Nov 11th 2016, 02:21 PM
I can relate to him a tad, because you labeled me the same way. And you were wrong to do it.

If you read Brian's last sentence on the quote you see " We edify one another in love"..... Can you really say you were doing that ? Or were you just trying to prove a point ?

First, I label arguments, not people; second, I have no idea what you're talking about, me labeling you -- refresh my memory (the exact quote as well, since you've already confused me with Stew Ward's Hip on at least one occasion (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/269167-Is-God-One-or-Three?p=3343790#post3343790))?

In this case, while denying it, she has repeatedly posted for a clearly Modalist understanding of the Godhead, and there's nothing improper about pointing that out -- as I, and others, have done. I'm trying to understand where she is coming from, specifically, how she can suggest that Jesus is the Father, but not as a mode of the Father? In response, she's claimed 'harassment'. If she's going to falsely claim harassment, I'm going to re-ask the question.

Now, I have no interest in hashing out your complaint with me in this thread, so either pursue it with the mods, and we can talk per their direction, or PM me (re: refreshing my memory), and we can talk privately. I won't be replying to you further unless it has to do with the content of this thread, pertaining to the OP.

clormond
Nov 11th 2016, 02:59 PM
15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

Pbminimum
Nov 11th 2016, 03:16 PM
Now, I have no interest in hashing out your complaint with me in this thread, so either pursue it with the mods, and we can talk per their direction, or PM me (re: refreshing my memory), and we can talk privately. I won't be replying to you further unless it has to do with the content of this thread, pertaining to the OP.

I have no interest in hashing out my complaint in private , or in public. I just asked a question that you didn't answer. Were you trying to edify out of love, or trying to prove a point ?

It's a pretty important question.

keck553
Nov 11th 2016, 04:40 PM
15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

This is an open forum. Public false teaching and / or error from anyone is going to be publically challenged / tested for the benefit of all who read these forums.

IMHO of course

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 11th 2016, 04:45 PM
Sometimes, proving a point is necessary in order to edify in love.

David Taylor
Nov 11th 2016, 04:48 PM
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** Mod-Staff Note **
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Discussions revolving around denying the divinity of Jesus or the Trinity, are limited to the Areopagus subforum only.

I have moved the prior post here, to that location here: (Areaopagus subforum (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/269443-Jesus-is-God-Explicitly-So-moved-from-Bible-Chat-subforum))

If the poster, or anyone else has any concerns, feel welcomed to start a new thread with the mod-staff here: (Chat to Moderators subforum (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php/84-Chat-to-the-moderators))

BrianW
Nov 11th 2016, 04:56 PM
This is an open forum. Public false teaching and / or error from anyone is going to be publically challenged / tested for the benefit of all who read these forums.

IMHO of course

And your opinion is absolutely correct.

Mod Note:

This forum has been very successful for many years because we do our best to discuss and edify the hard questions in a respectful manner. If anyone doesn't like their posts stating their beliefs/interpretations/opinions questioned in any way and take it as a personal attack? Then this isn't the place for them and I humbly suggest that they start their own forum and run it as they see fit.

And if anyone has a problem with how the board is moderated/facilitated and run? They are free to start a chat to moderators thread at any time and discuss it with us. Chat to mods threads aren't just for us to call you guys in and try to reason things out when there is a perceived problem it is also for members to contact us when or if they perceive there is a problem.
It's an open door guys. Use it if you feel the need.

What we don't like and won't tolerate for long? Members that complain about how we do things on the open board in a disrespectful manner. If anyone doesn't like how we do things and wants to disrespect the members and leadership team on the open board they may as well log out now and save us the trouble of escorting you out permanently.

Turkeys By The Road
Nov 11th 2016, 05:26 PM
15If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
There's more to that Deuteronomy verse.


(Deuteronomy 19:15-21)

15 If your brother sins against you,b go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

BrianW
Nov 11th 2016, 05:37 PM
Turkeys By The Road why did you ignore my mod note? Your post has been deleted.

Please start a thread in the Chat to Moderators section ASAP. Failure to start said thread could and most likely will result in your posting privileges being revoked. C2M can be found at this link:
http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php/84-Chat-to-the-moderators

Pbminimum
Nov 11th 2016, 06:06 PM
Sometimes, proving a point is necessary in order to edify in love.

True, and I agree with you, but sometimes it's only someone trying to prove a point. But no one will listen , and no one will be edified if love isn't at the heart of what we are doing. I need to choose my words better as well.

keck553
Nov 11th 2016, 06:15 PM
True, and I agree with you, but sometimes it's only someone trying to prove a point. But no one will listen , and no one will be edified if love isn't at the heart of what we are doing. I need to choose my words better as well.

True....love needs to be the fruit of our goal in all our encounters. It is an ideal not always manifested in disciples of Christ, yet it is the race we aim to finish well.

I haven't seen what you describe on this thread though.....but I have seen it for sure. First and foremost, in myself. From my perspective that makes me the chief of sinners in desperate need of God's Grace.

Stew Ward's Hip
Nov 11th 2016, 06:44 PM
There's more to that Deuteronomy verse.


(Deuteronomy 19:15-21)

15 If your brother sins against you,b go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Um, not to be persnicketty, but that's Matthew, not Deuteronomy.

:)

David Taylor
Nov 11th 2016, 06:44 PM
******************
** Mod-Staff Note **
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Attention user BigD9832,

Your PM (private messaging) feature is turned off so we, the mod-staff cannot contact you directly.

We had to move one of your posts to a different subforum, and want to explain the situation to you about that.

Please start a thread in the 'Chat-to-Moderators' subforum (here (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php/84-Chat-to-the-moderators)), so we can talk to you about it.

Thanks

clormond
Nov 11th 2016, 09:00 PM
This is an open forum. Public false teaching and / or error from anyone is going to be publically challenged / tested for the benefit of all who read these forums.

IMHO of course

was just trying to calm the water a bit

mailmandan
Feb 16th 2017, 12:44 PM
the words of Jesus is from the pit of hell?? No, your doctrine (which twists the words of Jesus) and denies that Jesus is God is from the pit of hell.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 16th 2017, 10:39 PM
There have been good threads on this subject in the past here on bibleforums. The one thing I noticed when engaging in discussion and research on the matter, is that the 'trinity camp' express similar beliefs as those in the 'modalism' camp in different ways/words/understanding (in my opinion, of course). I can't speak for any camp as a whole, but my point is that the trinity camp says 1 God 3 separate Persons, the modalism camp says 1 God expressed in 3 manifestations (in summary). At the end of the day, I threw away the labels and appreciate the fact that there is in fact a mystery to the Godhead. I've clung to or associated myself with both camps at different times and now don't subscribe to 1 vs. the other, but instead say c) it's both (in my humble opinion).

Jesus Christ is YHWH come in the flesh. He told Philip "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father". He also said "I and my Father are one". At the same time, I do recognize and appreciate the fact that Jesus clearly prays to the Father, as well as other instances where the trinity camp says "hey, these are separate" etc. No doubt. But the exhausting and weird part for me was that as much as they argue that Jesus and the Father are separate, they argue they are 1.

Is YHWH separate or 1? 3 or 1? My position is c) both. (as paradoxical as that sounds when reasoning it with human logic).

The book of Revelation, as well as was pointed out earlier, the book of Isaiah, ascribe the same names to Jesus (the Son) as are known to belong to YHWH Father. I don't think this is by accident or coincidence. At the end of the day, I believe that Jesus Christ is YHWH come in the flesh. I believe that The Holy Spirit is YHWH, and I believe that YHWH Father is YHWH. I believe they are the same YHWH. I believe that Jesus said certain things while in physical flesh as examples for believers, as well as to demonstrate His humbling Himself, leaving His heavenly abode to adorn the flesh and become the Lamb, Servant, etc. Another interesting thing I recognized, is that the Holy Spirit is both called the Spirit of the Father as well as the Spirit of Jesus Christ. So which is? Both, apparently. I don't think this is accidental or erroneous, but purposely mentioned as being both. I don't want to offend anyone here with my thoughts, just wanted to share my two-cents. Love you all in Jesus Christ.

I don't get overly dogmatic about it, because I've seen such excellent points made from both sides of the argument. Things I consider are the fact that if Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are all 1 but separate, are they all equal? Some say the Father is over Jesus is over Holy Spirit for example. I believe there is 1 God YHWH, and I believe that YHWH Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit are YHWH. And the syntax which separate some camps just seems to be arguing the same thing from different personality types/understanding/perspective.

Praise the LORD Jesus Christ, though. All things will be revealed to us soon enough.

*edit to add* Yes and Amen, JESUS IS MOST CERTAINLY GOD.