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JollyRoger1970
Mar 23rd 2017, 08:59 PM
Hi! I was reading in Genesis 9 and re-discovered the interesting of story of Noah cursing one of his sons.

What is going on in the passage? Are there relevant lessons for Christians today besides the fact that drunkenness is wrong?

Thanks!

Daniel567
Mar 23rd 2017, 10:00 PM
Hi! I was reading in Genesis 9 and re-discovered the interesting of story of Noah cursing one of his sons.

What is going on in the passage? Are there relevant lessons for Christians today besides the fact that drunkenness is wrong?
While Noah's drunkenness was definitely wrong, that was a secondary issue. The primarily issue was the violation of the dignity of Noah (even though he was partly responsible for this state of affairs). It would appear that Ham was not ashamed to shame his father, and perhaps took delight in reporting this matter to his brothers.

And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

chad
Mar 24th 2017, 12:29 AM
Gill Commentary - Genesis 9:22

And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father,.... Which, had it been through surprise, and at an unawares, would not have been thought criminal; but be went into his father's tent, where he ought not to have entered; he looked with pleasure and delight on his father's nakedness: Ham is represented by many writers as a very wicked, immodest, and profligate creature: Berosus (i) makes him a magician, and to be the same with Zoroast or Zoroastres, and speaks of him as the public corrupter of mankind; and says that he taught men to live as before the flood, to lie with mothers, sisters, daughters, males and brutes, and creatures of all sorts; and that he actually did so himself, and therefore was cast out by his father Janus, or Noah, and got the name of "Chem", the infamous and immodest:

and told his two brethren without; he went out of the tent after he had pleased himself with the sight; see Hab_2:15 and in a wanton, ludicrous, and scoffing manner, related what he had seen: some of the Jewish Rabbins (k), as Jarchi relates, say that Canaan first saw it, and told his father of it; and some say (l), that he or Ham committed an unnatural crime with him; and others (m), that he castrated him; and hence, it is supposed, came the stories of Jupiter castrating his father Saturn, and Chronus his father Uranus: and Berosus (n) says, that Ham taking hold of his father's genitals, and muttering some words, by a magic charm rendered him impotent: and some (o) will have it that he committed incest with his father's wife; but these things are said without foundation: what Noah's younger son did unto him, besides looking on him, we are not told, yet it was such as brought a curse on Canaan; and one would think it would be more than bare sight, nay, it is expressly said there was something done, but what is not said, Gen_9:24.

(i) Antiqu. l. 3. fol. 25. 1. (k) In Bere**** Rabba, sect. 36. fol. 32. 1. (l) Some in Jarchi. (m) Pirke Eliezer, c. 23. Some Rabbins in Ben Gersom & Jarchi in loc. (n) Antiqu. l. 3. fol. 25. 1. (o) Vander Hart, apud Bayle Dict. vol. 10. Art. "Ham", p. 588.


Interesting to note that Hams descendants became the nations that followed after false Gods.





Hi! I was reading in Genesis 9 and re-discovered the interesting of story of Noah cursing one of his sons.

What is going on in the passage? Are there relevant lessons for Christians today besides the fact that drunkenness is wrong?

Thanks!

Tony P
Mar 24th 2017, 08:54 PM
Hi! I was reading in Genesis 9 and re-discovered the interesting of story of Noah cursing one of his sons.

What is going on in the passage? Are there relevant lessons for Christians today besides the fact that drunkenness is wrong?

Thanks!

Ham was cursed. Ham is the father of the Egyptians and Cu****es. Ham was the father of all the Africans. Perhaps that is why they have had such a hard time in the world. However, freedom from this curse comes in Christ.

Jesuslovesus
Mar 24th 2017, 09:05 PM
Ham was cursed. Ham is the father of the Egyptians and Cu****es. Ham was the father of all the Africans. Perhaps that is why they have had such a hard time in the world. However, freedom from this curse comes in Christ.

Sorry this is an Error Ham was not Cursed.

Noah Cursed Canaan Not Ham.

So this idea that Africans are cursed is just incorrect and false.

The simple fact is most races in History have been slaves including Israel.

jesusinmylife
Mar 24th 2017, 09:05 PM
Ham was the father of all the Africans.

Really? I've never heard that before. How did you come to that conclusion?

Jude
Mar 24th 2017, 10:24 PM
i can see this only one way..the curse was placed on Ham and his descendants the Canaanites.


Jude

Athanasius
Mar 24th 2017, 10:28 PM
Ham was cursed. Ham is the father of the Egyptians and Cu****es. Ham was the father of all the Africans. Perhaps that is why they have had such a hard time in the world. However, freedom from this curse comes in Christ.

They are not cursed, and such talk by missionaries in the past is why most modern African Christians have such a terrible self-identity.

Stew Ward's Hip
Mar 24th 2017, 10:55 PM
They are not cursed, and such talk by missionaries in the past is why most modern African Christians have such a terrible self-identity.

Didn't know Noah was a witch.

Athanasius
Mar 24th 2017, 10:56 PM
Didn't know Noah was a witch.

On certain topics, God is a respecter of men, it seems.

chad
Mar 25th 2017, 01:19 AM
I agree that some of the descendants of Ham were Egyptians, the descendants of Ham also became other nations.

(Gen 10:6 KJV) And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Cush H3568. Kuwsh, koosh; prob. of for. or.; Cush (or Ethiopia), the name of a son of Ham, and of his territory; also of an Isr.:--Chush, Cush, Ethiopia.

Mizraun H4714. Mitsrayim, mits-rah'-yim; dual of H4693; Mitsrajim, i.e. Upper and Lower Egypt:--Egypt, Egyptians, Mizraim.

Phut H6316. Puwt, poot; or for. or.; Put, a son of Ham, also the name of his descendants or their region, and of a Persian tribe:--Phut, Put.

Canaan H3667. Kena'an, ken-ah'-an; from H3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son of Ham; also the country inhabited by him:--Canaan, merchant, traffick.





Ham was cursed. Ham is the father of the Egyptians and Cu****es. Ham was the father of all the Africans. Perhaps that is why they have had such a hard time in the world. However, freedom from this curse comes in Christ.

Tony P
Mar 25th 2017, 05:40 AM
Really? I've never heard that before. How did you come to that conclusion?

Psalm 105:23 Israel also came into Egypt, And Jacob dwelt in the land of Ham.

Psalm 78:51 And destroyed all the firstborn in Egypt, The first of their strength in the tents of Ham.

Genesis 10:6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.

Cush is Sudan or Ethiopia depending on who you listen to.

Put is Libya I think.

Mizraim is Egypt from what I can gather from Jubilees. It is west of Cush.

In Jubilees the earth get divided into sections by the three sons of Noah. Briefly...

Jubilees 8:29-30 This is the land which came forth for Japheth and his sons as the portion of his inheritance which he should possess for himself and his sons, for their generations for ever; five great islands, and a great land in the north.
But it is cold, and the land of Ham is hot, and the land of Shem is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.

Tony P
Mar 25th 2017, 05:59 AM
Sorry this is an Error Ham was not Cursed.

Noah Cursed Canaan Not Ham.

So this idea that Africans are cursed is just incorrect and false.

The simple fact is most races in History have been slaves including Israel.

Yes, Canaan was cursed, not Ham directly. My mistake. There is more to the story. Actually two stories got morphed into a single story in Genesis.

Some of the Dead Sea scroll documents confirm the story told in Jubilees. The cursing of Canaan wasn't related to seeing Noah naked. It was about Canaan occupying lands that didn't belong to them. The three sons made an oath before Noah and Canaan didn't keep it.

Jubilees 10:30-33 And Ham, his father, and Cush and Mizraim his brothers said unto him: 'Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and (be) accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled, and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out for ever.
Dwell not in the dwelling of Shem; for to Shem and to his sons did it come by their lot.
Cursed art thou, and cursed shalt thou be beyond all the sons of Noah, by the curse by which we bound ourselves by an oath in the presence of the holy judge, and in the presence of Noah our father.'
But he did not harken unto them, and dwelt in the land of Lebanon from Hamath to the entering of Egypt, he and his sons until this day.
And for this reason that land is named Canaan.

jayne
Mar 25th 2017, 03:04 PM
It's really difficult for me to understand how this gross error of Noah cursing an entire ethnicity still exists today. There is no way to connect the curse of Canaan with the history or modern life of some people in Africa or black people in general.

In my community Bible study we dig very deeply in the word of God verse-by-verse. We cross-reference, research, study, look at New Testament connections, and put a lot of time into what we as a small group do. We started in Genesis and are now about to start Judges. It is an intense and tedious study.

Here is what we discovered in the past year that outlines exactly what the curse of Canaan was, when it was fulfilled, and how it cannot possibly be about black people.

Noah said these exact words: [I]“Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers.” That's it. That's all. Nothing about ethnicity. Nothing about universal and perpetual cursing through the rest of mankind's history. Just that Canaan will serve the people of Shem and/or Japeth as the lowest of servants.

So where in the Bible did that take place? My Bible study group, thus far, has found two places. There may be more as we are only in Judges.

Genesis 14:1-12 - This is a complicated passage, but it boils down to this. There was a battle among kings - 4 kings against 5 kings. The main king - Chedorlaomer, king of Elam is a descendant of Shem as Shem's son was Elam. He was the king that everyone else "served". Some of these minor kings were Canaanites and descendants of Ham. It says that for 12 years they had been servants of the king of Elam and then they rebelled. The king of Elam attacked them all - with a few kings on his side - and the Canaanites [literally, Amalekites, Amorites, Horites, Zuzims of Ham and more] were soundly trounced for - as the Bible says "rebelling against" the king of Elam. Joshua 9 - In Canaan, the Gibeonites [descendants of the Amorites], tricked Joshua into allowing them to become allies instead of enemies. When Joshua found out he had been deceived, he kept the vow of being allies, but he pronounced judgement on these descendants of Canaan. They would serve as the lowest of the low - they would be the wood cutters and water boys for the priests forever. This was quite the step down for them as they were formidable. But they agreed and remained servants of Israel until King Saul attacked them centuries later
Again, that's all we've found for now and that may BE all the examples the Bible has.

This is how the curse of Canaan was fulfilled. There was no curse upon dark-skinned people to be slaves of humanity.

chad
Mar 25th 2017, 08:58 PM
Hams descendants went on to worship false Gods, so I guess that is a curse in itself.

Cush - Out of Cush came the nations of Babylon, Ninivah and Assyria.

Mizraun - Egypt (Gods of Egypt defeated when Moses led Israel out to the promised land).

Canaan - (God gave Israel the land of Canaan to possess and inherit as their promised land).

Athanasius
Mar 25th 2017, 09:17 PM
Hams descendants went on to worship false Gods, so I guess that is a curse in itself.

Cush - Out of Cush came the nations of Babylon, Ninivah and Assyria.

Mizraun - Egypt (Gods of Egypt defeated when Moses led Israel out to the promised land).

Canaan - (God gave Israel the land of Canaan to possess and inherit as their promised land).

And through Israel these nations are to be saved

percho
Mar 25th 2017, 10:50 PM
The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. Lev 18:8
Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen. Duet 27:20

Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Did Ham cause a curse upon a child to be born? Canaan.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Christinme
Mar 26th 2017, 08:49 AM
The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. Lev 18:8
Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen. Duet 27:20

Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Did Ham cause a curse upon a child to be born? Canaan.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.Not sure why you would think it was not Noah but his wife ... or Noah and his wife ... seems if we look at the surrounding verses that it's only Noah ...

Genesis 9:20-24

20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Tony P
Mar 27th 2017, 02:53 AM
And through Israel these nations are to be saved

Perhaps, but perhaps not when it comes to Canaan. Context is the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Athanasius
Mar 27th 2017, 11:59 AM
Perhaps, but perhaps not when it comes to Canaan. Context is the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Don't forget about those cooking pots, and festivals, and...

percho
Mar 28th 2017, 02:25 AM
Not sure why you would think it was not Noah but his wife ... or Noah and his wife ... seems if we look at the surrounding verses that it's only Noah ...

Genesis 9:20-24

20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

I have no idea, I was just posting some scriptures. I do wonder why every time Ham is mentioned so is Canaan. What is so special concerning Canaan? And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. Were not all of his sons of the heathen? Why pick on Canaan?

teddyv
Mar 28th 2017, 03:05 AM
I have no idea, I was just posting some scriptures. I do wonder why every time Ham is mentioned so is Canaan. What is so special concerning Canaan? And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. Were not all of his sons of the heathen? Why pick on Canaan?

The Pentateuch was penned early in Israel's history. The Canaanites were their main nemesis in the promised land. It would stand to reason they might figure a bit more boldly within their history.