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ICONBUSTERS
May 15th 2017, 10:07 PM
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29).

Among the many points of controversy swirling among professing Christians is this one.

Does a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ originate with himself, (man being the cause), or is a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ the effect of a miraculous work of God in the hearts and minds of His Elect, (God being the cause)?

Many, many sincere, sober and serious Christians hold to the theory which has man the cause of his faith.

This ability to believe they attribute to the power of man’s free will which can either believe or not believe. Man makes the ultimate determination as to his final destiny.

But what saith the Scriptures?

For if faith is the alone powerful work of God in His people then one would expect the Scriptures to state such a fundamental and critical truth unambiguously.

And this is exactly what Jesus does when He unequivocally states that believing on Him is the result of God’s working in you.

And that working is efficacious in all those He loves. (John 3:16)

They are the same ones the Father gave to the Son to redeem (John 3:17; John 17).

For not only does faith work through love (Galatians 5:6), the love of God works faith in those He loves.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10).

We Christians owe our every blessing to God, who decreed in eternity that we should become new creations in His Son, thanks to His omnipotent power working all things necessary for us to successfully accomplish the work He called us to do.

The initial blessing all Christians receive is the gift of faith which God works in us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

As Christians we have nothing of which to boast, including faith, which is not of ourselves.

Furthermore, the work of faith God began in us is only the beginning of the work He has purposed to successfully undertake on our behalf.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6).

The strength, spirit and determination of the Christian’s will is derived from God, as is the Christian’s ability to perform those works that are pleasing to Him.

For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

The will to believe in Christ is the work of God, not the work of man.

To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power (2 Thess. 1:11).

Faith is the powerful work of God.

We Christians were not accepted by God because of anything good in us, including faith.

It is God who made us accepted in His beloved Son, to the praise of the glory of His grace (Ephesians 1:11).

Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture (Psalm 100:3).

We are His workmanship, remember?

He made those -- who once hated Him -- His people, His sheep.

In fact, Paul equates the same power which raised Christ from the dead as the same power which worked in us, raising us, who were spiritually dead, to a living faith in Christ (Ephesians 1:19-20).

Scripture is unanimous in attributing our faith to the gracious, omnipotent power of God efficaciously working in us.

NEXT: Christ finished the work of God He was sent to do on Earth.

TheDivineWatermark
May 15th 2017, 11:18 PM
"it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What is the "it" that is "not of works" (or "not out from works, so that no one may boast")?

"____..., not out of works..."

Elsewhere, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord," so might the "it" (which is really the "that" in "that not of yourselves") be referring to salvation as the gift? It seems to make sense in the context of both verses together, aside from the issue of the gender-agreement thing (between the word "that/this [neuter]" and "faith [feminine]"), in verse 8.

IOW, salvation [eternal life ('the gift of God'-Rom6:23)] is not of works lest anyone should boast.


Romans 3:27 seems to distinguish "works" from "faith" (by that, I mean, faith is not a "work" as some Calvinists claim): "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

And Romans 4:4-5 also, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."






["He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."]

ICONBUSTERS
May 16th 2017, 10:34 PM
"it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What is the "it" that is "not of works" (or "not out from works, so that no one may boast")?

"____..., not out of works..."

Elsewhere, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord," so might the "it" (which is really the "that" in "that not of yourselves") be referring to salvation as the gift? It seems to make sense in the context of both verses together, aside from the issue of the gender-agreement thing (between the word "that/this [neuter]" and "faith [feminine]"), in verse 8.

IOW, salvation [eternal life ('the gift of God'-Rom6:23)] is not of works lest anyone should boast.

Please name one Christian organization throughout history who has ever taught salvation is all of works.

It doesn't exist.

So to claim Paul is referring to the gift of salvation is a false hypothesis.

Faith is not the meritorious cause of your election unto salvation, of which many 'boast.'

Faith is the gift of God which He wrought in Christ.

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Phil. 1:29).


Romans 3:27 seems to distinguish "works" from "faith" (by that, I mean, faith is not a "work" as some Calvinists claim): "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

And Romans 4:4-5 also, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

["He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."]

In the context of the Scriptures you cite, Paul is using the 'works' of men as examples of meritorious reasons which cannot 'earn' them salvation.

Many Christians are very confused regarding the difference between grace and merit.

Many believe their faith merited eternal life, when in fact eternal life merited and given by Christ is the cause of faith.

I explain this in my following post.

TheDivineWatermark
May 16th 2017, 11:15 PM
Please name one Christian organization throughout history who has ever taught salvation is all of works.

It doesn't exist.

Are you trying to suggest that the Scriptures were written after the time of "[any] Christian organization throughout history"? ["the Church which is His body" began here: Eph 1:20-23 "when"]

"Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone"

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law."



["He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."]

TheDivineWatermark
May 16th 2017, 11:25 PM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/271018-Is-Christ-Mediator-to-all-Mankind?p=3384315#post3384315

[quoting that post, minus the highlighting that didn't transfer]




ICONBUS: This He does by His Spirit, who quickens and raises His Elect to spiritual life, making them able and willing to seek and believe the truth in His Son.


Life before belief?

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and [to-the-end-] that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. [...] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:10,12

"1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By [means of] which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. ['believed in vain' means to leave off the truth of His 'resurrection'--vv.14,17,18--a vital component of "the faith" we are to believe (and what we must believe on/trust, His finished work, for salvation--without that aspect also], our faith is vain/futile... "your faith")] 1Cor15:1-4

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, [B]not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." Heb4:2


"29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulēn] of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." Luk7:29-30

[apparently it is not impossible to "reject the boule/boulēn of God"... despite what some say of its usage in Ephesians 1... and where verse 12 goes on to say, "that we should be to the praise of His glory, who fore-hoped in Christ"--I wonder how 'fore' that was... Perhaps before any person was ever created?? :lol: (some think our union with Him was back then [before any person was created]... so it's not far-fetched to say that of their view I guess :rolleyes: )]

chad
May 16th 2017, 11:27 PM
(John 6:29 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

(John 6:29 NIV) Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

That sounds like a free-will decision to me. A person has to believe in the one he has sent? Yes.




Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29).

Among the many points of controversy swirling among professing Christians is this one.

Does a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ originate with himself, (man being the cause), or is a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ the effect of a miraculous work of God in the hearts and minds of His Elect, (God being the cause)?

Many, many sincere, sober and serious Christians hold to the theory which has man the cause of his faith.

This ability to believe they attribute to the power of man’s free will which can either believe or not believe. Man makes the ultimate determination as to his final destiny.

But what saith the Scriptures?

For if faith is the alone powerful work of God in His people then one would expect the Scriptures to state such a fundamental and critical truth unambiguously.

And this is exactly what Jesus does when He unequivocally states that believing on Him is the result of God’s working in you.

And that working is efficacious in all those He loves. (John 3:16)

They are the same ones the Father gave to the Son to redeem (John 3:17; John 17).

For not only does faith work through love (Galatians 5:6), the love of God works faith in those He loves.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10).

We Christians owe our every blessing to God, who decreed in eternity that we should become new creations in His Son, thanks to His omnipotent power working all things necessary for us to successfully accomplish the work He called us to do.

The initial blessing all Christians receive is the gift of faith which God works in us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

As Christians we have nothing of which to boast, including faith, which is not of ourselves.

Furthermore, the work of faith God began in us is only the beginning of the work He has purposed to successfully undertake on our behalf.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6).

The strength, spirit and determination of the Christian’s will is derived from God, as is the Christian’s ability to perform those works that are pleasing to Him.

For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

The will to believe in Christ is the work of God, not the work of man.

To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power (2 Thess. 1:11).

Faith is the powerful work of God.

We Christians were not accepted by God because of anything good in us, including faith.

It is God who made us accepted in His beloved Son, to the praise of the glory of His grace (Ephesians 1:11).

Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture (Psalm 100:3).

We are His workmanship, remember?

He made those -- who once hated Him -- His people, His sheep.

In fact, Paul equates the same power which raised Christ from the dead as the same power which worked in us, raising us, who were spiritually dead, to a living faith in Christ (Ephesians 1:19-20).

Scripture is unanimous in attributing our faith to the gracious, omnipotent power of God efficaciously working in us.

NEXT: Christ finished the work of God He was sent to do on Earth.

ICONBUSTERS
May 16th 2017, 11:40 PM
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work (John 4:24).

In my previous post I used scriptural arguments which concluded that our Christian faith is the work of God.

We are His workmanship, a new creation, which He made, not we ourselves.

In order to make us, (who were spiritually dead sinners), fit for adoption, He sent His Son to acquire all spiritual blessings/gifts necessary for such an endeavor.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:6).

It was the Father whose wisdom and grace found a way, through Christ, to qualify us for Heaven:

…giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light (Colossians 1:12).

Please note there is no mention of man’s self-generated faith as a qualifier.

Had that been the case, Paul should have stated, ’giving thanks to you Colossians, whose faith qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.’

Rather it is the spiritual blessings/gifts, including the gift of faith, which Christ merited on our behalf. These are what qualify us.

Christ’s perfect obedience to the will of the Father was essential to acquiring all blessings/gifts which comprise eternal life.

Just prior to His crucifixion Christ declared:

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do (John 17:4).

Christ accomplished, with perfection, all that the Father sent Him to do while on Earth.

Jesus reiterates this truth while on the cross: It is finished (John 19:30).

But what, exactly did Jesus accomplish; what work did He finish?

Jesus Himself gives us the answer:

…for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world (John 12:47b).

Jesus designates those He is sent to save:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him (John 17:2).

Those given to Christ are those who were chosen in Christ by the Father before the foundation of the world, before they were born (Ephesians 1:4).

And on what basis were they chosen? Was it due to their foreseen faith?

No. It was due to the good pleasure of His will which He eternally purposed in Himself without any outside influence whatsoever.

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will…..which he hath purposed in himself (Ephesians 1:5, 9).

Remember, there is no higher reason or greater cause why it is God does what He does.

His will is the sole rule in determining what is right, good and holy.

Jesus states as much:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight (Matthew 11:25-26).

It is good when God hides the truth of Christ from many.

Why? Because He willed it.

Why did God choose some for salvation and not all? Because God willed it.

Why did God choose this one rather than that one? Because God willed it.

Why am I a Christian while other family members are not? Because God willed it.

Why do I have faith while others do not? Because God willed it.

We are Christians because God willed to have mercy upon us, not because of foreseen faith we might have (Romans 9: 15-16).

As Creator, Savior and Governor, God has the right to do with His own as He pleases:

Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? (Matthew 20:15).

God has the lawful right to give saving grace or withhold it as He deems good.

Who Did Christ Come to Save?

He came to save as many as the Father had given Him (John 17:2 cited above).

It’s not as if Christ hadn’t the power to save all mankind, for He states He has power over all flesh (John 17:2).

Rather, He gives eternal life to those given Him, who were chosen by the Father before the foundation of the world.

Christ, the good Shepherd, calls them ‘my sheep.’

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand (John 10:27-29).

Those who are ordained/elected/chosen by the Father for salvation will be the recipients of eternal life given them by Christ.

And all those ordained to eternal life will believe:

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

Luke does not say ‘as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.’

Faith is the result of God’s election.

God's election is the cause of faith.

Christ accomplished all things necessary to insure/guarantee eternal life for God’s chosen ones.

His perfect obedience merited the acquisition of eternal life, which must include all spiritual gifts necessary to effect that acquisition.

And first on that list is a living, holy faith which justifies.

NEXT: What is Proof One Has Eternal Life?

TheDivineWatermark
May 16th 2017, 11:55 PM
Faith is the gift of God which He wrought in Christ.

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Phil. 1:29).

Phil1:29 is in the context of what is also stated in Phil1:30, "the same conflict having, such as ye saw in me, and now hear of in me." [referring to the reason he was now experiencing imprisonment. There was a reason.]


Don't take these so far out of context that they begin to say something entirely other than was meant. (Calvinism has a bad habit of doing that... but Arminianism does this as well to come to its faulty conclusions.)

ICONBUSTERS
May 16th 2017, 11:55 PM
Hi Chad:

Please cite Scripture which declares men have 'free will' to obey God.

Men have the 'freedom' to disobey God, which they do every day.

In fact, Scripture states men are the natural enemies of God who cannot comply with God's commands because it is impossible for them to do so (Romans 8:7).

The Pharisees typify unregenerate, though religious, men.

Christ castigates them for their unwillingness to come to him (John 5:40).

"They will not."

No man comes to Christ unless the Father efficaciously draws him (John 6:44).

Christ refutes the notion of man coming to Him by the power of his own will.

ICONBUSTERS
May 17th 2017, 12:03 AM
Are you trying to suggest that the Scriptures were written after the time of "[any] Christian organization throughout history"? ["the Church which is His body" began here: Eph 1:20-23 "when"

No, I am not. I am simply pointing to the fact that many Christians attempt to justify their interpretation because salvation is not of works, but the gift of God.

No Christian disputes this. However, the point Paul is making references faith as the gift of God, which Christians DO dispute.

Paul states there is boasting when one presumes to be the originator of one's faith.

ICONBUSTERS
May 17th 2017, 12:07 AM
Phil1:29 is in the context of what is also stated in Phil1:30, "the same conflict having, such as ye saw in me, and now hear of in me." [referring to the reason he was now experiencing imprisonment. There was a reason.]


Don't take these so far out of context that they begin to say something entirely other than was meant. (Calvinism has a bad habit of doing that... but Arminianism does this as well to come to its faulty conclusions.)

Suffering is ordained of not only Paul but millions of Christians since the days of Paul.

That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the clear statement preceding this which states our faith was also ordained by God, and given as a gift.

ICONBUSTERS
May 17th 2017, 12:14 AM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/271018-Is-Christ-Mediator-to-all-Mankind?p=3384315#post3384315
Life before belief?

Absolutely. One must be regenerated and raised to spiritual life in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Except a man be born again (made spiritually alive in Christ) he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

He cannot see/discern/understand that Kingdom because it is a spiritual Kingdom, as is its God.

Cf. 1 Cor. 2:14

TheDivineWatermark
May 17th 2017, 12:18 AM
Suffering is ordained of not only Paul but millions of Christians since the days of Paul.

That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the clear statement preceding this which states our faith was also ordained by God, and given as a gift.

The text says, "you [plural]" ['to you [plural]']... but what the text of Phil1:29-30 does not say is [the types of things Calvinists say it is saying], "He poured 'faith' into your individual person"




["He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."]

chad
May 17th 2017, 01:44 AM
(Rom 3:21 KJV) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

(Rom 3:22 KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

A person must have faith and put thier trust in Christ Jesus. It is a decision, done through free-will

Believe G4100. pisteuo, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


If we have no freewill and all is ordained before time, then free will does not exist. It is an illusion. Everything since the beginning of time, all events, all the people who are to be saved and lost has already been decided before the creation of the world. God really is only the one who has freewill to pre-destined all events before creation according to the will of God.

The fall of angels, the fall of man, heaven and hell - they are all pre-destined by the will of God. Man or anything else God has created really has no free will, it has already been pre-destined and decided by God.


(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(Rom 3:24 KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Freely G1432. dorean, do-reh-an'; acc. of G1431 as adv.; gratuitously (lit. or fig.):--without a cause, freely, for naught, in vain.



Hi Chad:

Please cite Scripture which declares men have 'free will' to obey God.

Men have the 'freedom' to disobey God, which they do every day.

In fact, Scripture states men are the natural enemies of God who cannot comply with God's commands because it is impossible for them to do so (Romans 8:7).

The Pharisees typify unregenerate, though religious, men.

Christ castigates them for their unwillingness to come to him (John 5:40).

"They will not."

No man comes to Christ unless the Father efficaciously draws him (John 6:44).

Christ refutes the notion of man coming to Him by the power of his own will.

ICONBUSTERS
May 17th 2017, 03:30 AM
(Rom 3:21 KJV) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

(Rom 3:22 KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

A person must have faith and put thier trust in Christ Jesus. It is a decision, done through free-will.

But as I have shown via Scripture men are not 'free' to obey that which they hate.

The murder of Christ is the paramount proof.

The depravity of hate-filled man is the reason why God graciously gives His chosen hearts of flesh to replace hearts of stone (Ezek. 36:26-27).

This is also the reason why we must be 'born again.' Our old sin nature will not obey God.


If we have no freewill and all is ordained before time, then free will does not exist. It is an illusion. Everything since the beginning of time, all events, all the people who are to be saved and lost has already been decided before the creation of the world. God really is only the one who has freewill to pre-destined all events before creation according to the will of God.

The fall of angels, the fall of man, heaven and hell - they are all pre-destined by the will of God. Man or anything else God has created really has no free will, it has already been pre-destined and decided by God.

Free will to obey God does not exist. Free will to sin does exist.

Yes, it is true, God has ordained all things which come to pass (Ephesians 1:11), including those who He will save.

Yes, God is the only One truly free.

Your birth and death were preordained from eternity (Eccles. 3:2).

Do you doubt that all things in between were left up to 'chance'?



(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(Rom 3:24 KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Freely G1432. dorean, do-reh-an'; acc. of G1431 as adv.; gratuitously (lit. or fig.):--without a cause, freely, for naught, in vain.

Yes, we are justified by grace, which was gratuitous since God gives us faith as His free gift to His chosen.

Noeb
May 17th 2017, 04:13 AM
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29).

Among the many points of controversy swirling among professing Christians is this one.

Does a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ originate with himself, (man being the cause), or is a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ the effect of a miraculous work of God in the hearts and minds of His Elect, (God being the cause)?

Many, many sincere, sober and serious Christians hold to the theory which has man the cause of his faith.

This ability to believe they attribute to the power of man’s free will which can either believe or not believe. Man makes the ultimate determination as to his final destiny.Wrong. There's so much wrong will your understanding, where to begin? The ability to believe comes from God. All are created and made with it. Some use the ability to be drawn to God, most do not. All are taught, not all learn. Those that learn of the Father WILL come to Jesus. Only those that are the Father's (drawn) are given to Jesus. All this in John 6, along with verse 29 above. Get your answers from context instead of injecting your theology into context.

Here's an undeniable principle.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

So of course it's the work of God to believe. He created man with the ability for that very purpose. It's his design. When man follows his design his will is done according to his own good pleasure. That's what saith the Scriptures.

ICONBUSTERS
May 17th 2017, 09:40 PM
Wrong. There's so much wrong will your understanding, where to begin? The ability to believe comes from God. All are created and made with it. Some use the ability to be drawn to God, most do not. All are taught, not all learn. Those that learn of the Father WILL come to Jesus. Only those that are the Father's (drawn) are given to Jesus. All this in John 6, along with verse 29 above. Get your answers from context instead of injecting your theology into context.

Here's an undeniable principle.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

So of course it's the work of God to believe. He created man with the ability for that very purpose. It's his design. When man follows his design his will is done according to his own good pleasure. That's what saith the Scriptures.

Sadly, your Pelagian denial of the Fall of Man and its devastating effects on all mankind is allowed to go unchecked by most on this board.

Your views are shared by the Unitarians, a pseudo-Christian heretical denomination.

ICONBUSTERS
May 17th 2017, 09:49 PM
Proof of Eternal Life

In my first post I cited several Scriptures which prove saving faith the work of God.

In my second post I cited several Scriptures which prove Christ finished the work given Him to do on Earth.

Christ perfectly accomplished His Father’s will.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day (John 6:39).

Christ lost none and will never lose any given Him by the Father (John 10; 17).

This critical divine truth vitiates all the well-meaning Christians’ theories which insist the Father’s eternal intention was to save all mankind, as was the mediatorial mission of Christ.

Rather, it was quite the contrary.

It was the Father’s eternal intention that Christ lay down His life for those sheep given Him by His Father.

….I lay down my life for the sheep….I give them eternal life and they shall never perish…..My Father which gave them me is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:15, 28-29).

We can unequivocally conclude from this statement that those who perished were never given to Christ with the eternal intention of their salvation.

I now ask the question, What is proof of eternal life?

With irrefutable clarity, Jesus answers this vital question:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent (John 17:3).

Knowing the true God and Jesus Christ is proof of one’s election unto eternal life.

The knowledge of which Jesus speaks is not the historical knowledge which the demons possess (as well as many professing Christians).

What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God (Mark 1:24)

Rather, it is an intimate, personal relational knowledge which seeks to understand who God is, what God’s will is, and how He would have us serve Him.

It is a knowledge which is grounded in obedience and a sincere love for God.

And it is a knowledge which has its cause in the electing grace of God.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him (Matthew 11:27).

The Son reveals the Father, and the Father reveals the Son (Matthew 16:17).

The world has not known the Father, only Christ has known Him (John 17:25).

Jesus made known the Father to those given Him by the Father (John 17:6).

Jesus promises He will continue to declare and make the Father known to those later generations of Elect (John 17:26).

Furthermore, and most importantly, Jesus relates the revelation of the knowledge of God to the unconditional love of God:

And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them (John 17:26).

Herein lays further proof that God’s love cannot fail to save.

Those whom He loves He gives revelation knowledge of Himself, which is their proof of eternal life.

And that knowledge is always received and believed……”they have kept thy word” (John 17:6).

It is the Paul’s prayer that the Father give the Ephesians the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him that they eyes of their understanding be enlightened to understand the supernatural origin of their faith which came from God, not themselves (Ephesians 1:18-20, 2:8-9).

Is that not Christ's prayer for all His sheep?

NEXT: Why did Christ constantly emphasize He was sent of God?

Noeb
May 18th 2017, 01:23 AM
Sadly, your Pelagian denial of the Fall of Man and its devastating effects on all mankind is allowed to go unchecked by most on this board.

Your views are shared by the Unitarians, a pseudo-Christian heretical denomination.All false accusations. I gave glory and honor to God for his awesome creation in bringing man to faith in him. Hardly heretical. I don't share your gnostic/mystical elitest view of the the gospel, but neither did Jesus, the apostles, or any of the early church fathers, and no, Augustine The Gnostic wasn't early.

ICONBUSTERS
May 19th 2017, 01:18 AM
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me (John 5:30).

Time and again Jesus repeats the divine truth that is was the Father who sent Him.

The Jews knew Jesus claimed God as His Father, and that infuriated them.

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God (John 5:17-18).

Jesus was sent by God Almighty.

Jesus was sent by the highest authority in the Universe.

And this authority is infinitely capable of designing Christ’s mission so that its outcome would be exactly as He willed it to be.

First, He would send the One who would have the wisdom and power to execute the mission perfectly.

Second, the One sent would have the ability and desire to follow His instructions to the letter.

Third, His mission would consist of saving those chosen by the Father, whom the Father loved.

Fourth, the loss of one of God’s chosen, whom He loved, would result in the mission’s devastating failure.

Fifth, failure is not an option.

The Father had set before Jesus a daunting, seemingly impossible task.

He must leave Heaven, take on human flesh, grow from baby to boy to man, live in a world dominated by sin and Satan, and never once stray from the Father’s will.

And if that weren’t enough, He then had to face unbelief, hatred, persecution, and even execution – all the while remaining an innocent, righteous man.

Here’s Where Things Get Sticky

For reasons unfathomable to this writer, there is a sharp division among Christians regarding why Christ was sent by the Father in the first place.

On the one side are sincere, sober and serious Christians who believe and teach Christ was sent for no other purpose than to make salvation ‘available and possible’ to all mankind.

Once the Gospel is heard, it is now up to the individual to make a ‘decision,’ pro or con.

By making salvation ‘available and possible’ to all mankind, God proves His love and desire that all men be saved.

Those who reject Christ do so despite knowing God loves them and earnestly wants them to be with Him in Heaven, a place of perpetual joy.

Those who reject Christ force God, who loves them, to send them to Hell, a place of perpetual torture.

There is not any wrongdoing on God’s part, for He makes salvation ‘available and possible’ for all: rich, poor, young, old, black, yellow, brown and white.

The choice is theirs to make.

On the other side, where this writer stands, we hold that God is all-wise.

He knows the devastating effects Adam’s disobedience has on his descendants.

Sin permeates their being to such a degree, hatred of that which is holy, good and pure is their natural reaction.

Yet, despite knowing man’s innate revulsion to the true God, as well as their natural affection for Satan, the god of this world, the Father had determined, within Himself, to love many of His enemies.

His love was not contingent on anything favorable foreseen in those chosen enemies.

No. They did not, could not and would not love Him unless He loved them first.

His love was not in word only.

It was an active love, powerful and effectual in achieving its purpose.

And that love is seen in His Son, Jesus Christ, whose purpose was to gather together those He so loved, that they would be His people and He would be their God, forever and ever.

Now to achieve that purpose the Father sent His Son to save those in the world, whom He so loved.

We know that to be the case because it was the Father’s will (eternal purpose) that Christ lose none of those given to Him, who were loved by the Father.

Christ was to save every last one.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day (John 6:37-39).

Is there any doubt that God the Father and God the Son know precisely the identities of those sinners given to Christ, who are so loved by the Father?

“The Lord knoweth them that are His.”

And are they not the same ones for whom Christ prays as their High Priest?

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine (John 17:9).

And are they not the same ones for whom Christ prays while on the cross making atonement for their sins?

Father, forgive them for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).

And are they not the same ones who never perish?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand (John 10:27-29).

And are they not the same ones who will receive the free gift of faith, causing them to believe and never perish?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

CONCLUSION: The Father knows how to design a plan to perfection.

His Son knows how to execute that plan to perfection.

The Father’s love is omnipotent.

All those He loves will obediently and willingly comply with His command to ‘repent and believe the Gospel.’

The Father has not left their salvation up to ‘chance.’

His love melts hearts of stone.

For Christ merited and acquired all spiritual gifts necessary for the beloved to attain glorification.

Which side of the controversy are you on?

The side which teaches God loves all, but loses more of those loved than He saves?

Or our side which teaches God saves to the uttermost all those He loves because He loses none.

NEXT: The Holy Spirit is sent to effectually apply those gifts.

kyCyd
May 19th 2017, 01:49 PM
Which side of the controversy are you on?

The side which teaches God loves all, but loses more of those loved than He saves?

Or our side which teaches God saves to the uttermost all those He loves because He loses none

I really like how much of the gospels you used in all you stated, makes it easy for me to read.
As far as Jesus being sent, it was for God so loved the world, that is all to me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As far as not loosing any, it is Jesus that doesn't loose any that he was given by the Father.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

There must be ones the Father does not give to Jesus, or how would this then fit?:

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As to the controversy of who is saved, I would add these scriptures.
:
Matthew 19:25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I would be curious as to how then you explain the parable of the sewer? Seems to me there are decisions being made there.

ICONBUSTERS
May 19th 2017, 11:53 PM
I really like how much of the gospels you used in all you stated, makes it easy for me to read.

I am so glad my posts are easy to read. That was the intent!

It is also my intent to break down difficult concepts in bite size pieces with short explanations which are easier to grasp.


As far as Jesus being sent, it was for God so loved the world, that is all to me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As I have explained in my 'Mediator' thread, Christ came to save the world God so loved.

And He did just that! Please study my posts in that thread.


As far as not loosing any, it is Jesus that doesn't loose any that he was given by the Father.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

There must be ones the Father does not give to Jesus, or how would this then fit?:

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did the Father love those who Christ never knew?


As to the controversy of who is saved, I would add these scriptures.
:
Matthew 19:25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Salvation is the supernatural, gracious work of God from beginning to end.

For it is God which worketh in you (His chosen) both to will and to do of his good pleasure.(Philip. 2:13).


I would be curious as to how then you explain the parable of the sewer? Seems to me there are decisions being made there.

Start here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/271018-Is-Christ-Mediator-to-all-Mankind?p=3383462#post3383462). I have commented on those Parables in a few posts.

Thanks for you input, my friend!

kyCyd
May 20th 2017, 10:19 AM
Did the Father love those who Christ never knew?



To me He loves all.
I read your post on the sower, I still see decisions being made in the actual parable. You stated this in that post

Jesus is not shy in explaining why His disciples will bear good fruit.
It is because He did the choosing, not the other way around, as so many Christians would have us believe (John 15:16).

Jesus did the choosing here also, did he not love all his disciples?

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

To me Judas is a good example of decisions being made, he also like the others followed Jesus, did all the works of the disciples etc.

To me God and Jesus loved all, when talking about love he didn't exclude Judas.

ICONBUSTERS
May 20th 2017, 09:52 PM
To me He loves all.
I read your post on the sower, I still see decisions being made in the actual parable. You stated this in that post

Jesus is not shy in explaining why His disciples will bear good fruit.
It is because He did the choosing, not the other way around, as so many Christians would have us believe (John 15:16).

Jesus did the choosing here also, did he not love all his disciples?

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

To me Judas is a good example of decisions being made, he also like the others followed Jesus, did all the works of the disciples etc.

To me God and Jesus loved all, when talking about love he didn't exclude Judas.

Hello KC:

I read your response carefully.

I dare you to walk into any Christian church and state loudly and proudly, “Even though Jesus called Judas a devil, the son of perdition, who was foreordained to be lost and tormented forever and ever (John 17:12), nevertheless, it is my firm opinion Jesus loved Judas.”

Think for a moment. You are declaring Jesus loves devils. I suppose you also believe Jesus loves Satan?

Judas was chosen on purpose, but not for the purpose you think.

Re: ‘who chose whom?’…..If ‘choosing’ Christ was the necessary initial step to being His disciple, then why did not Jesus say so?

He should have declared, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man choose Me, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

But alas, that is not what Jesus asserted.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Who commands the Spirit? Man or God?

Keep asking, seeking and knocking, my friend!

Brother Mark
May 20th 2017, 10:10 PM
Hello KC:

I read your response carefully.

I dare you to walk into any Christian church and state loudly and proudly, “Even though Jesus called Judas a devil, the son of perdition, who was foreordained to be lost and tormented forever and ever (John 17:12), nevertheless, it is my firm opinion Jesus loved Judas.”

Think for a moment. You are declaring Jesus loves devils. I suppose you also believe Jesus loves Satan?

Judas was chosen on purpose, but not for the purpose you think.

Re: ‘who chose whom?’…..If ‘choosing’ Christ was the necessary initial step to being His disciple, then why did not Jesus say so?

He should have declared, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man choose Me, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

But alas, that is not what Jesus asserted.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Who commands the Spirit? Man or God?

Keep asking, seeking and knocking, my friend!

Matt 10:1-15

10 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax-gatherer; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons; freely you received, freely give. 9 "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. 11 "And into whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it; and abide there until you go away. 12 "And as you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 "And if the house is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your greeting of peace return to you. 14 "And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
NASB

By what Spirit did Judas perform miracles?

What had Judas freely received?

Since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, how was it possible that Judas perished?

John 17:12-13
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
NASB

ICONBUSTERS
May 20th 2017, 10:33 PM
Matt 10:1-15

10 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax-gatherer; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons; freely you received, freely give. 9 "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. 11 "And into whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it; and abide there until you go away. 12 "And as you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 "And if the house is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your greeting of peace return to you. 14 "And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
NASB

By what Spirit did Judas perform miracles?

What had Judas freely received?

Since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, how was it possible that Judas perished?

John 17:12-13
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
NASB

Unfortunately, this Forum does not allow for a proper answer to your question. Let it suffice to say that the choosing of Judas has deep prophetic significance.

Re: Judas' working miracles..............

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2*And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3*Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4*Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5*And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Brother Mark
May 20th 2017, 10:49 PM
Unfortunately, this Forum does not allow for a proper answer to your question. Let it suffice to say that the choosing of Judas has deep prophetic significance.

Re: Judas' working miracles..............

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2*And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3*Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4*Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5*And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Well, Jesus sent Judas out in power. And Judas was sent out to preach the gospel. Therefore, we know that OT passage does't apply.

In that same passage, Jesus said he sent them out as "sheep", thus calling Judas a sheep.

Matt 10:16-18

16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore be shrewd as serpents, and innocent as doves. 17 "But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the courts, and scourge you in their synagogues; 18 and you shall even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
NASB

He also included Jesus in this part of the passage:

Matt 10:30-32
30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 "Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows.
NASB

You can try to use the OT passage, however the NT passage clearly shows that Judas was empowered by and sent out by Jesus.

Matt 10:1 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
NASB

kyCyd
May 21st 2017, 09:50 AM
Re: ‘who chose whom?’…..If ‘choosing’ Christ was the necessary initial step to being His disciple, then why did not Jesus say so?


To me Jesus did say so. The word He used was believe, he used the word often, started out with the word. So to me that is the start of coming to Him. So this is the first step.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

mailmandan
May 21st 2017, 01:07 PM
Since Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, how was it possible that Judas perished?

John 17:12-13
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
NASB Was Judas actually given to Christ by the Father? Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Did Jesus lose Judas or was he already lost?

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2017, 02:02 PM
Was Judas actually given to Christ by the Father? Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Did Jesus lose Judas or was he already lost?

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.

Its a difficult passage. Jesus said "none of them You gave me are lost except Judas". The implication is that Judas was given to Christ. I am on the fence about it and don't think we can lightly say "Judas was not given to Jesus".

kyCyd
May 21st 2017, 02:05 PM
To me it is all a process... first is repentance and believing the gospel.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Outlined even by Jesus... one of the first things he then did was to baptize.
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Teaching and instruction then came, it was later on He even then ask His disciples who they said he was.
Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

It was then that Peter said
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

ICONBUSTERS
May 21st 2017, 09:26 PM
Was Judas actually given to Christ by the Father? Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Did Jesus lose Judas or was he already lost?

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.

Another brilliant post by Mailman Dan! :>)

ICONBUSTERS
May 21st 2017, 09:27 PM
To me it is all a process... first is repentance and believing the gospel.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Outlined even by Jesus... one of the first things he then did was to baptize.
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Teaching and instruction then came, it was later on He even then ask His disciples who they said he was.
Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

It was then that Peter said
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Keep on keepin' on, my friend!

ICONBUSTERS
May 21st 2017, 09:37 PM
Well, Jesus sent Judas out in power. And Judas was sent out to preach the gospel. Therefore, we know that OT passage does't apply.

In that same passage, Jesus said he sent them out as "sheep", thus calling Judas a sheep.

Matt 10:16-18

16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore be shrewd as serpents, and innocent as doves. 17 "But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the courts, and scourge you in their synagogues; 18 and you shall even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
NASB

He also included Jesus in this part of the passage:

Matt 10:30-32
30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 "Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows.
NASB

You can try to use the OT passage, however the NT passage clearly shows that Judas was empowered by and sent out by Jesus.

Matt 10:1 And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
NASB

I find it curiously disturbing you relish taking up the torch for the son of Satan who betrayed Christ, .

Did you not know there are preachers who are well-respected, gifted orators, beloved of the world, yet who are not entering the presence of God, but will instead be consigned to outer darkness? (Matthew 7:22-23).

I can think of one such 20th century 'giant of evangelism' who preaches salvation for all men who simply do the best they can, never having heard of Christ.

My Bible tells me such a one who preaches a false Gospel is damned.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2017, 09:52 PM
I find it curiously disturbing you relish taking up the torch for the son of Satan who betrayed Christ, .

Nope. Just focusing on Jesus words. Didn't defend Judas final actions at all or who he ultimately became. But you can read into whatever you like. Jesus called him a sheep. Later, he called him a devil. Maybe he went from one side to the other.

ICONBUSTERS
May 21st 2017, 09:59 PM
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom (Luke 12:32).

In what way was it the Father’s good pleasure to ‘give us’ (Christians) the Kingdom of God?

1. Was it His good pleasure to ‘show you’ the Kingdom, allowing you the freedom of choice to accept or reject it?

2. Was it His good pleasure to ‘tell you’ about the Kingdom, allowing you the freedom of choice to accept or reject it?

3. Or was it His good pleasure to have mercy on us, sending His Spirit, sovereignly and efficaciously to birth Christ in us, thereby giving us eyes to ‘see’ the Kingdom of God, ears to ‘hear’ the Gospel of the Kingdom, and a new heart to ‘believe’ what we now can spiritually see and hear.

Sadly, many Christians reject # 3, preferring to place God’s will in submission to their will.

Yet, Scripture is clear.

We turn to God because He turned us.

Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned (Lamentations 5:21).

God makes us willing.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power (Psalm 110:3).

It is God who freely exercises His omnipotent power to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves.

Can a man physically blind, deaf or dead heal himself?

Jesus could graciously work such miraculous healings by the power of God.

Many approached Jesus for their healing.

They knew they were not in perfect health.

The dead, of course, made no such plea.

Yet He raised them from the dead without their request or permission.

Does the reader not understand it requires the same power of God to heal our spiritual blindness, deafness and deadness?

Yet many Christians refuse to discern the parallels.

They insist they first saw, heard and believed the Gospel of the Kingdom, and then God gifted them with the Holy Spirit.

Many Christians dislike the notion God’s saving grace is bestowed upon whom He will have mercy.

NOT ALL RECOGNIZE THEIR DEADLY SPIRITUAL CONDITION

Do those who have no physical health issues seek a physician?

Of course not.

Do all those who are unregenerate, walking after the flesh, recognize their deadly spiritual condition?

Of course not.

And do those same unregenerate, unaware of their deadly condition, seek spiritual healing from Christ?

Of course not.

There is none that seeketh after God (Romans 3:11b).

Thus it is that God in His mercy illuminates our darkened minds, awakening us to the truth of our condition and its eternally damning consequences if left unchecked (John 16:8-10).

He heals our spiritual blindness so that we now can see the glorious light of Christ (John 3:3).

He heals our spiritual deadness so that we now can hear the Master’s words of eternal life (Matthew 11:5).

He heals our deceitful stony hearts, giving us a heart to know Him, while causing us to obediently walk according to His will (Jeremiah 24:7; Ezek. 36:26-27; Hebrews 8:10).

To accomplish this, His good pleasure, He sends His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, who is the Spirit of His love.

God’s infinite, eternal love for His chosen ones is what motivated Him to send His Son to acquire eternal life for us.

It is the same infinite, eternal love for His chosen that motivates Him to send His Spirit, worldwide and daily, to efficaciously apply that which Christ merited on our behalf.

Oh, the depth and the riches of God’s great love wherewith He loved us!

kyCyd
May 22nd 2017, 10:30 AM
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom (Luke 12:32).

In what way was it the Father’s good pleasure to ‘give us’ (Christians) the Kingdom of God?

1. Was it His good pleasure to ‘show you’ the Kingdom, allowing you the freedom of choice to accept or reject it?

2. Was it His good pleasure to ‘tell you’ about the Kingdom, allowing you the freedom of choice to accept or reject it?

3. Or was it His good pleasure to have mercy on us, sending His Spirit, sovereignly and efficaciously to birth Christ in us, thereby giving us eyes to ‘see’ the Kingdom of God, ears to ‘hear’ the Gospel of the Kingdom, and a new heart to ‘believe’ what we now can spiritually see and hear.


So why would Jesus need to pray for Peter if there was no chance for his faith to fail?

Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

kyCyd
May 22nd 2017, 05:30 PM
I just had to post this from study today as it seems to fit the things we have been talking about.

Psalms 145:17-20 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them. The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

ICONBUSTERS
May 22nd 2017, 06:04 PM
So why would Jesus need to pray for Peter if there was no chance for his faith to fail?

Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

As I have stated in my 'Mediator' thread, Christ holds the office of High Priest, in addition to other offices (Prophet and King). One of the essential duties of the High Priest is intercessory prayer on behalf of God's people.

In John 17 we are told He prays NOT for the world-at-large (meaning every human ever born), but only for those given Him by the Father.

So, in praying for Peter's perseverance Christ is fulfilling His High Priestly office.

At this moment Christ is praying for our sanctification and perseverance.

He is also praying for faith in the soon-to-be called Elect, to whom He sends His quickening Spirit.

kyCyd
May 23rd 2017, 01:29 PM
Nope. Just focusing on Jesus words. Didn't defend Judas final actions at all or who he ultimately became. But you can read into whatever you like. Jesus called him a sheep. Later, he called him a devil. Maybe he went from one side to the other.

I agree with you on focusing on Jesus, and you are right that is what happened:
John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 03:56 PM
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29).

Among the many points of controversy swirling among professing Christians is this one.

Does a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ originate with himself, (man being the cause), or is a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ the effect of a miraculous work of God in the hearts and minds of His Elect, (God being the cause)?

Many, many sincere, sober and serious Christians hold to the theory which has man the cause of his faith.

This ability to believe they attribute to the power of man’s free will which can either believe or not believe. Man makes the ultimate determination as to his final destiny.

But what saith the Scriptures?

For if faith is the alone powerful work of God in His people then one would expect the Scriptures to state such a fundamental and critical truth unambiguously.

And this is exactly what Jesus does when He unequivocally states that believing on Him is the result of God’s working in you.

And that working is efficacious in all those He loves. (John 3:16)

They are the same ones the Father gave to the Son to redeem (John 3:17; John 17).

For not only does faith work through love (Galatians 5:6), the love of God works faith in those He loves.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10).

We Christians owe our every blessing to God, who decreed in eternity that we should become new creations in His Son, thanks to His omnipotent power working all things necessary for us to successfully accomplish the work He called us to do.

The initial blessing all Christians receive is the gift of faith which God works in us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

As Christians we have nothing of which to boast, including faith, which is not of ourselves.

Furthermore, the work of faith God began in us is only the beginning of the work He has purposed to successfully undertake on our behalf.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6).

The strength, spirit and determination of the Christian’s will is derived from God, as is the Christian’s ability to perform those works that are pleasing to Him.

For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

The will to believe in Christ is the work of God, not the work of man.

To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power (2 Thess. 1:11).

Faith is the powerful work of God.

We Christians were not accepted by God because of anything good in us, including faith.

It is God who made us accepted in His beloved Son, to the praise of the glory of His grace (Ephesians 1:11).

Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture (Psalm 100:3).

We are His workmanship, remember?

He made those -- who once hated Him -- His people, His sheep.

In fact, Paul equates the same power which raised Christ from the dead as the same power which worked in us, raising us, who were spiritually dead, to a living faith in Christ (Ephesians 1:19-20).

Scripture is unanimous in attributing our faith to the gracious, omnipotent power of God efficaciously working in us.

NEXT: Christ finished the work of God He was sent to do on Earth.

Thanks for posting this clear teaching of the word of God. It is like an oasis in a dry land:thumbsup:

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:00 PM
Hi Chad:

Please cite Scripture which declares men have 'free will' to obey God.

Men have the 'freedom' to disobey God, which they do every day.

In fact, Scripture states men are the natural enemies of God who cannot comply with God's commands because it is impossible for them to do so (Romans 8:7).

The Pharisees typify unregenerate, though religious, men.

Christ castigates them for their unwillingness to come to him (John 5:40).

"They will not."

No man comes to Christ unless the Father efficaciously draws him (John 6:44).

Christ refutes the notion of man coming to Him by the power of his own will.

We both know that Chad will search in vain for those imaginary references:dunno:

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:03 PM
Suffering is ordained of not only Paul but millions of Christians since the days of Paul.

That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the clear statement preceding this which states our faith was also ordained by God, and given as a gift.

Yes indeed....it is the word for graced.....it has been given,graced:yes:

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:05 PM
(Rom 3:21 KJV) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

(Rom 3:22 KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

A person must have faith and put thier trust in Christ Jesus. It is a decision, done through free-will

Believe G4100. pisteuo, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


If we have no freewill and all is ordained before time, then free will does not exist. It is an illusion. Everything since the beginning of time, all events, all the people who are to be saved and lost has already been decided before the creation of the world. God really is only the one who has freewill to pre-destined all events before creation according to the will of God.

The fall of angels, the fall of man, heaven and hell - they are all pre-destined by the will of God. Man or anything else God has created really has no free will, it has already been pre-destined and decided by God.


(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(Rom 3:24 KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Freely G1432. dorean, do-reh-an'; acc. of G1431 as adv.; gratuitously (lit. or fig.):--without a cause, freely, for naught, in vain.

Correct Chad....freewill does not exist.....it is a false philosophical notion.....

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:09 PM
But as I have shown via Scripture men are not 'free' to obey that which they hate.

The murder of Christ is the paramount proof.

The depravity of hate-filled man is the reason why God graciously gives His chosen hearts of flesh to replace hearts of stone (Ezek. 36:26-27).

This is also the reason why we must be 'born again.' Our old sin nature will not obey God.



Free will to obey God does not exist. Free will to sin does exist.

Yes, it is true, God has ordained all things which come to pass (Ephesians 1:11), including those who He will save.

Yes, God is the only One truly free.

Your birth and death were preordained from eternity (Eccles. 3:2).

Do you doubt that all things in between were left up to 'chance'?




Yes, we are justified by grace, which was gratuitous since God gives us faith as His free gift to His chosen.

Well said brother. Clearly the teaching of scripture.:thumbsup:

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:12 PM
Wrong. There's so much wrong will your understanding, where to begin? The ability to believe comes from God. All are created and made with it. Some use the ability to be drawn to God, most do not. All are taught, not all learn. Those that learn of the Father WILL come to Jesus. Only those that are the Father's (drawn) are given to Jesus. All this in John 6, along with verse 29 above. Get your answers from context instead of injecting your theology into context.

Here's an undeniable principle.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

So of course it's the work of God to believe. He created man with the ability for that very purpose. It's his design. When man follows his design his will is done according to his own good pleasure. That's what saith the Scriptures.

Wow.....Adam did not die spiritually in the fall????:confused:no:

ICONBUSTERS
May 23rd 2017, 04:13 PM
Thanks for posting this clear teaching of the word of God. It is like an oasis in a dry land:thumbsup:

Thank YOU, brother iconoclast, for your kind and encouraging words!

Great to see you back! I always look forward to reading your insightful posts!

ICONBUSTERS
May 23rd 2017, 04:16 PM
Wow.....Adam did not die spiritually in the fall????:confused:no:

Noeb denies the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.

He is in agreement with the Unitarian cult.

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:18 PM
All false accusations. I gave glory and honor to God for his awesome creation in bringing man to faith in him. Hardly heretical. I don't share your gnostic/mystical elitest view of the the gospel, but neither did Jesus, the apostles, or any of the early church fathers, and no, Augustine The Gnostic wasn't early.

A denial of the full effects of the fall cannot end well. I notice Iconbusters has used primarily the teaching of Jesus and the apostles to come to his biblical conclusion.
I have not seen where you offer any valid refutation:no:

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:28 PM
Thank YOU, brother iconoclast, for your kind and encouraging words!

Great to see you back! I always look forward to reading your insightful posts!

Thanks....had to drive hard to get out here to Phoenix.....truck broke down in Nashville, lost time....back on track now...enjoying your posts and clear confession of faith.
Those who are set to resist would do good to sit down with a yellow legal pad and list the verses and see the abundance of truth on display that blends together exalting the work of God.

Iconoclast85
May 23rd 2017, 04:30 PM
Noeb denies the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.

He is in agreement with the Unitarian cult.

The two biggest causes of error are a wrong view of what scripture is, and a wrong view of the fall and it's lasting effects. This is the major cause of confusion over and over again.

Noeb
May 23rd 2017, 05:39 PM
Wow.....Adam did not die spiritually in the fall????:confused:no:define die spiritually and be certain to back it up with scripture. I agree with a fall and its spiritual implications, but I only agree with scripture, not the doctrines of men.

Noeb
May 23rd 2017, 06:59 PM
Noeb denies the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.Imputation of one man's sin or righteousness to another man is a direct contradiction to ALL Scripture. Relationship and fellowship between God and man did not cease either. Read the Bible, not what man says.

kyCyd
May 23rd 2017, 09:07 PM
Imputation of one man's sin or righteousness to another man is a direct contradiction to ALL Scripture. Relationship and fellowship between God and man did not cease either. Read the Bible, not what man says.

Is this the way you understand it Noeb? God said from youth, not birth. So that is what I believe anyway. I have no clue as to what camp that puts me in other than the word of God. I don't see scriptures posted by any of them.

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

This is the beginning of man calling upon the name of the Lord, so to me relationship didn't start up again this.

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Noeb
May 23rd 2017, 09:45 PM
kyCyd, I've read your post a few times and and don't understand what you are saying.

Pbminimum
May 23rd 2017, 09:49 PM
[QUOTE=ICONBUSTERS;3386043]

We Christians were not accepted by God because of anything good in us, including faith.

wow.... ...............

Noeb
May 23rd 2017, 09:58 PM
wow.... ...............
Wow is right. That's like someone claiming Jesus didn't preach the good news to all Israel. .... Wait, ICONBUSTERS made that claim too!

Noeb
May 24th 2017, 01:09 AM
Is this the way you understand it Noeb? God said from youth, not birth. So that is what I believe anyway. I have no clue as to what camp that puts me in other than the word of God. I don't see scriptures posted by any of them.

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

This is the beginning of man calling upon the name of the Lord, so to me relationship didn't start up again this.

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.I guess you're saying no one had relationship and fellowship for the whole 130 years from Adam to Seth? God didn't have relationship and fellowship Cain and Abel? Did you forget that? How do you propose to know what happened afterward or with Adam all this time?

Noeb
May 24th 2017, 02:17 AM
A denial of the full effects of the fall cannot end well.What you define as full effects and what I define as full effects are not going to be even remotely similar.


I notice Iconbusters has used primarily the teaching of Jesus and the apostles to come to his biblical conclusion.Cults make the same claim. In fact everyone does. What's your point?


I have not seen where you offer any valid refutation:no:You are more than welcome to go back and read through my post. Use the search feature or your favorite search engine if you so desire. Pretty easy to find things.

kyCyd
May 24th 2017, 08:27 AM
I guess you're saying no one had relationship and fellowship for the whole 130 years from Adam to Seth? God didn't have relationship and fellowship Cain and Abel? Did you forget that? How do you propose to know what happened afterward or with Adam all this time?

To me that is when men started seeking God, when they started calling upon Him. Prior to that God spoke, men had fear of God but more or less avoided Him. Seeking or calling upon Him they were initiating contact with God, thus starting relationship. That is how I take it anyway.

Noeb
May 24th 2017, 05:29 PM
I can't make assumptions, and I never said things were great. In general terms, being in relationship doesn't speak to what kind it is.

BadDog
May 28th 2017, 02:27 PM
Noeb,

Just saw this thread, which is a good one.

I think you are saying something very close to my thoughts, though expressed differently. I think you know that I do not think it is possible for some untangible thing to be given to someone. But, does God work in the hearts of individuals, wooing and drawing them to Himself?

Yes, He does. And IMO without such working in the hearts of people they will not respond to the gospel message. Was invited by a neighbor to come over yesterday to a get-together, grill time. He's Mormon, and several from his church came. I brought my marinated chicken breasts over and joined the festivities. I had only spoken to him in passing from time to time.

He knew that we had Bible studies at our home in the past, but not recently. My wife and I were involved with Community Bible Study and told him about it. I did mention that I was thinking of starting a study in our home again, and he seemed interested. He said then that he and bis wife would like to join us, that I could teach him some things.

Now of course I am very excited about this prospect. But I am convinced that it was God's hand in the whole thing. I had left after some time, realized I had left some of my grilling tools there, so returned with a peach pie I had baked recently. That gave me the opportunity to talk to him again, and for hi to respond. Now I am convinced that God was drawing this family to Himself.

We don't know the mind of God. Discussions such as this one are very interesting to me, but ultimately, we have to just respond to situations in faith that God is at work, recognizing that unless He is drawing people, they will not come.

:P if you think about it, would apprciate prayer.

BD

Brother Mark
May 28th 2017, 02:57 PM
But, does God work in the hearts of individuals, wooing and drawing them to Himself?

Yes, He does. And IMO without such working in the hearts of people they will not respond to the gospel message.

What do you make of this scripture?

Matt 11:23
23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
NASB

Here, Jesus was saying that if miracles had occurred in Sodom, they would have repented. Jesus doesn't speak about any work in their hearts but instead, he speaks about works done in their environment.

I am still working through some of the different beliefs on this topic. Not sure, yet, where I will come down on it.

Noeb
May 28th 2017, 08:46 PM
Noeb,

Just saw this thread, which is a good one.

I think you are saying something very close to my thoughts, though expressed differently. I think you know that I do not think it is possible for some untangible thing to be given to someone. But, does God work in the hearts of individuals, wooing and drawing them to Himself?This is the wrong question. I think the question should be is it a necessity? That's the charge. That it's a necessity, and again are we all on the same page as to what wooing and drawing means? I don't have an issue with it happening or being needed is some case. What I have a problem with is that it's a necessity. See Marks question above. Also consider Matthew 13. Jesus said if he didn't conceal the mysteries, those that had closed their eyes and ears could repent and be healed. This tells us they could see and hear to begin with and they could have then seen and heard and been healed. Where is this work in the heart you speak of?



Yes, He does. And IMO without such working in the hearts of people they will not respond to the gospel message. Was invited by a neighbor to come over yesterday to a get-together, grill time. He's Mormon, and several from his church came. I brought my marinated chicken breasts over and joined the festivities. I had only spoken to him in passing from time to time.

He knew that we had Bible studies at our home in the past, but not recently. My wife and I were involved with Community Bible Study and told him about it. I did mention that I was thinking of starting a study in our home again, and he seemed interested. He said then that he and bis wife would like to join us, that I could teach him some things.

Now of course I am very excited about this prospect. But I am convinced that it was God's hand in the whole thing. I had left after some time, realized I had left some of my grilling tools there, so returned with a peach pie I had baked recently. That gave me the opportunity to talk to him again, and for hi to respond. Now I am convinced that God was drawing this family to Himself.

We don't know the mind of God. Discussions such as this one are very interesting to me, but ultimately, we have to just respond to situations in faith that God is at work, recognizing that unless He is drawing people, they will not come.

:P if you think about it, would apprciate prayer.

BDGlory to God. Maybe Joh 16:7 and 1Pe 2:12 is happening?

BadDog
May 29th 2017, 12:53 AM
What do you make of this scripture?

Matt 11:23
23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
NASB

Here, Jesus was saying that if miracles had occurred in Sodom, they would have repented. Jesus doesn't speak about any work in their hearts but instead, he speaks about works done in their environment.

I am still working through some of the different beliefs on this topic. Not sure, yet, where I will come down on it.
Brother Mark,

Interesting thought about what Jesus said to the inhabitants of Capernaum. It shows that God not only knows the past, present and future in intimate detail... He knows about the possibilities in past, present and future. This way of viewing God's knowledge is referred to as "middle knowledge." It elevates the knowledge of God, and helps us to understand a bit better how Goe can choose us, is sovereign, yet we still have free will.

BD

Brother Mark
May 29th 2017, 12:59 AM
Brother Mark,

Interesting thought about what Jesus said to the inhabitants of Capernaum. It shows that God not only knows the past, present and future in intimate detail... He knows about the possibilities in past, present and future. This way of viewing God's knowledge is referred to as "middle knowledge." It elevates the knowledge of God, and helps us to understand a bit better how Goe can choose us, is sovereign, yet we still have free will.

BD

I think I mentioned this passage before when you brought up middle knowledge. I believe God knows everything that will happen, and even those that might happen. He knows he will change his mind, and what he will change his mind to before he ever does change his mind. He knows all the infinite possibilities of what could happen based on our circumstances. That is why he was able to tell us what Sodom would have done.

However, the question still remains... why did Jesus suggest that if the miracles that were done in Israel had been done in Sodom, they would have repented? Does that mean that God had to do more work on their hearts than what the miracles would have done?

Noeb
May 29th 2017, 02:07 AM
Brother Mark,

Interesting thought about what Jesus said to the inhabitants of Capernaum. It shows that God not only knows the past, present and future in intimate detail... He knows about the possibilities in past, present and future. This way of viewing God's knowledge is referred to as "middle knowledge." It elevates the knowledge of God, and helps us to understand a bit better how Goe can choose us, is sovereign, yet we still have free will.

BDDoesn't reveal middle knowledge at all. Reveals Sodom wasn't self righteous hypocrites that thought they were all that. It's also not what Mark had in mind.

watchinginawe
May 29th 2017, 03:50 PM
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (John 6:29).

Among the many points of controversy swirling among professing Christians is this one.

Does a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ originate with himself, (man being the cause), or is a Christian’s faith/belief in Christ the effect of a miraculous work of God in the hearts and minds of His Elect, (God being the cause)?

Many, many sincere, sober and serious Christians hold to the theory which has man the cause of his faith.

This ability to believe they attribute to the power of man’s free will which can either believe or not believe. Man makes the ultimate determination as to his final destiny.

You seem to postulate only two possibilities regarding faith:

1)God alone causes faith in human subjects who He has chosen
or
2)Humans alone causes faith within themselves

But there is a third option and the one that the largest majority of those on these forums submit, synergism between God and humanity:
God alone causes the object of our faith, whom He has revealed to all humans and Whom has given the Gospel and the Holy Spirit to turn us from unbelief to belief.

So, God goes first and alone, providing as the Creator of humans that deposit which is sufficient for a human to receive in belief, or resist; each according to their disposition toward the matter.

You mention above the "cause" of faith. Paul puts it like this:

Romans 1:15-16 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
...
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And again:

I Corinthians 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

I could go on to show where Paul concerns himself regarding the content of the Gospel, how that in certain circumstances humans can dilute the word of God to an extent that it no longer is the Gospel of power.

Humans just don't decide to be saved. First of all, God unilaterally sent Jesus to minister and die for us as a man. God goes first, alone, without human involvement or merit of any kind. Humanity is lost without the grace of God in sending Jesus Christ to provide that which when heard by the Gospel saves us when we believe.

Some in the thread have wondered, where is the will of humans ever mentioned in context to any of this? Isn't it just the will of God that does everything?

For me, it takes a particular reading of scripture to explain away verses (and indeed passages, and the whole of the Bible) like the following:

Romans 8:12-13 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Reading Romans, I completely understand the above as directed to believers. Else why the "we are debtors"? Paul does not seem to be stating a fact, as in it is impossible that believers would yield themselves to live after the flesh. Rather, Paul is instructing here, we are not to live after the flesh else we shall die, because we won't receive the nourishment granted us by living in the Spirit. God has provided us the Holy Spirit, through Whom we may live, if we walk after the Spirit.

What exactly does God mean in Exodus 20 in the giving of the 10 Commandments? That we are helpless in all aspects of will to understand the commandments and take to ourselves any kind of qualitative decision accordingly?

We shall not murder. We shall not bear false witness. Ever wonder why a lie detector even works? We shall not live after the flesh. Is that really so hard to understand? Living after the Spirit is not a "work" of humans that afford them salvation, rather it is part of God's synergistic plan of salvation. At least in my opinion.