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justbyfaith
Jun 8th 2017, 04:00 AM
I have a few scriptures in mind.

First, John 7:12, And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him (Jesus): for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay,; but he deceiveth the people.

People couldn't make up their minds as to whether Jesus Himself was a good man or a deceiver.

Secondly, 2 Corinthians 6:8, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

The ministry of the apostles was such that they were defamed as being deceivers (see also 1 Corinthians 4:12-13) even though they were true to the core. They dealt with people who gave them both good and bad reports; they lived both with honour and dishonour.

Thirdly, Hebrews 12:3, For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Jesus, again, endured contradiction of sinners against Himself, as some thought of Him as a deceiver and the scribes and the Pharisees definitely wanted something like this to stick.

Fourthly, Matthew 7:16 says, You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I don't think of myself as the thorny type, but there are those who do bear briers and thorns, the type who accuse others of being false teachers.

Finally, there is Matthew 7:3-4, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

This is what prompted Pastor Romaine of the Calvary Chapel Movement to say, "Anytime you point the finger at someone else you have three fingers pointing back at you."

Those who accuse others of false teaching are VERY LIKELY, according to these verses, to harbor false teaching in their own hearts and minds; and the person whom they are accusing may very well be bringing to them the truth of God; which they reject because of not understanding the Bible in their own lives.

keck553
Jun 8th 2017, 04:58 AM
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 2 These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.[a]

3 They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanks by faithful people who know the truth. 4 Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks. 5 For we know it is made acceptable[b] by the word of God and prayer.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through bphilosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (Acts 15:6-11)

Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! (Philippians 3:1-8)

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Slug1
Jun 8th 2017, 05:25 AM
I have a few scriptures in mind.

First, John 7:12, And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him (Jesus): for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay,; but he deceiveth the people.

People couldn't make up their minds as to whether Jesus Himself was a good man or a deceiver.

Secondly, 2 Corinthians 6:8, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

The ministry of the apostles was such that they were defamed as being deceivers (see also 1 Corinthians 4:12-13) even though they were true to the core. They dealt with people who gave them both good and bad reports; they lived both with honour and dishonour.

Thirdly, Hebrews 12:3, For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Jesus, again, endured contradiction of sinners against Himself, as some thought of Him as a deceiver and the scribes and the Pharisees definitely wanted something like this to stick.

Fourthly, Matthew 7:16 says, You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I don't think of myself as the thorny type, but there are those who do bear briers and thorns, the type who accuse others of being false teachers.

Finally, there is Matthew 7:3-4, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

This is what prompted Pastor Romaine of the Calvary Chapel Movement to say, "Anytime you point the finger at someone else you have three fingers pointing back at you."

Those who accuse others of false teaching are VERY LIKELY, according to these verses, to harbor false teaching in their own hearts and minds; and the person whom they are accusing may very well be bringing to them the truth of God; which they reject because of not understanding the Bible in their own lives.James 5:19-20... correction of error, is paramount. Paul lived up to this word from James... as he pointed out the errors of many. The 4th letter, err... the 2nd letter to the Corinthians was even an effort to defend himself against some who were in error.

Anyway... we can't justify ourselves by following hand picked statutes of the Law... no way, no how (you try).

It is NEVER what we put into our mouth that makes us unrighteous, it's only what come out... of our mouth. Also, not one person in the Body today is under any obligation to follow ANY statute of the Law... instead we are to follow or be "led by" the Holy Spirit.

Slug1
Jun 8th 2017, 01:05 PM
JbF, I'm on my phone so this will be short. Alone with God this morning, reflecting, some prayer, some worship as I smoke food for a dinner our church is doing for the community. Anyway, something came up while reading. Galatians 3:24.

I can say much concerning these innuendo style threads you've started, but I'm not led that way. How I am led is to inform you that God is trying to correct you through these efforts of rebellion on your part, by guiding many who have responded with His correction.

So, I gave to you all I am led to give along with that verse.

Pbminimum
Jun 8th 2017, 02:16 PM
justbyfaith

Those who accuse others of false teaching are VERY LIKELY, according to these verses, to harbor false teaching in their own hearts and minds; and the person whom they are accusing may very well be bringing to them the truth of God; which they reject because of not understanding the Bible in their own lives.

Not when those who confront use scripture and are widely in agreement in their interpretation of it. One could say the same of your rejection of the scriptures presented.

Jude
Jun 8th 2017, 02:51 PM
I have a few scriptures in mind.

First, John 7:12, And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him (Jesus): for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay,; but he deceiveth the people.

People couldn't make up their minds as to whether Jesus Himself was a good man or a deceiver.

Secondly, 2 Corinthians 6:8, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

The ministry of the apostles was such that they were defamed as being deceivers (see also 1 Corinthians 4:12-13) even though they were true to the core. They dealt with people who gave them both good and bad reports; they lived both with honour and dishonour.

Thirdly, Hebrews 12:3, For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Jesus, again, endured contradiction of sinners against Himself, as some thought of Him as a deceiver and the scribes and the Pharisees definitely wanted something like this to stick.

Fourthly, Matthew 7:16 says, You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I don't think of myself as the thorny type, but there are those who do bear briers and thorns, the type who accuse others of being false teachers.

Finally, there is Matthew 7:3-4, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

This is what prompted Pastor Romaine of the Calvary Chapel Movement to say, "Anytime you point the finger at someone else you have three fingers pointing back at you."

Those who accuse others of false teaching are VERY LIKELY, according to these verses, to harbor false teaching in their own hearts and minds; and the person whom they are accusing may very well be bringing to them the truth of God; which they reject because of not understanding the Bible in their own lives.

Does your post have anything to do with this


Jude

TrustGzus
Jun 8th 2017, 04:15 PM
Does your post have anything to do with


Jude

That article is outdated. Brian Brodersen resigned from Calvary Chapel Association and started Calvary Chapel Global Network.

Jude
Jun 8th 2017, 04:20 PM
That article is outdated. Brian Brodersen resigned from Calvary Chapel Association and started Calvary Chapel Global Network.

i know that and you know that I'm trying to understand why the OP started this thread is all...


Jude

keck553
Jun 8th 2017, 05:20 PM
JbF, I am going to try this again. Do not assume the doctrine I embrace has anything to do with my identity with my local church community. My identity is in Christ alone. I am and will always be open to His correction as long as I draw breath from His Hand.

This has not always been the case, in my pride I fell to legalism based on the Torah of Moses which ultimately resulted in self-righteousness which caused deafness and blindness to the Holy Spirit's "voice" and also caused me to create a tension of "us" and "them" between my and my Christian brothers.

As many can attest right here on this board, the fruit of my doctrine stunk all the way to God's Nostrils. Only by the grace and mercy of the leadership on this board was I allowed to return and through my posts, document my growth and maturity in the faith. I have a long way to go, but I am learning to walk humbly with our God, to love mercy and to pursue justice.

Through pursuit of these three directives from God (Micah 6.8), I am learning to hear not only His Voice, but also the voice of my wife, my son, my community and the suffering, the lost and the needy. My prayer is that I apply His directives appropriately.

JbF, I do not create the 7 bonds of unity which Paul exposits in Ephesians. God created them before the foundation of the world. What God requires of me is to keep them. All of them tie into Micah 6.8, for without a correct heart condition none of these are "keepable." But we are new creations in Christ and there is nothing restraining any of us from total surrender to Him. Before salvation we developed our survival traits through an unregenerated mind, and our actions - most of our actions and attitudes were formed around self dependency and self sufficiency and in the case of our relationship with God, self effort to please Him was part of this attitude because at some level it was existential that we have some sense of righteousness before Him. But that is the "old man." As new creations, all that nonsense has been eliminated. Our righteous standing before God is based on the righteousness of Jesus, not ourselves. We are as clean as Adam before the fall in God's economy because of Jesus.

So what does that mean to me personally? I came to God with nothing but a tiny pocketful of faith. I had nothing to offer Him - my righteousness was a dead man's works, by God's standards I was a total failure of His original design. I had no value to His Kingdom when I came to Him. I was worthless, unclean, profane and filthy. A leper. A beggar seeking a crumb from the Lord's table. Of what value is that to God?

Yet God transformed me in exchange for what? I had nothing to offer but my need.

So yeah, accepting everything in exchange for nothing should be a major event in anyone's life. So of course I wanted to "renew" my mind and obey the One Who gave it all for the likes of me. So I totally immersed myself in obeying His Word from beginning to end without even understanding the context and application. I stopped eating "unclean" foods - to the point I asked servers at restaurants to change their utensils and gloves in case they touched something unclean. I wore Tzizit in obedience to the command in Numbers. I didn't mix threads on my garments. I observed Sabbath to the nth degree. I fasted on Yom Kippur and other requirements. I did all these things - and more in respect for the Torah given to Moses. And yes, I held the opinion that there is no condemnation for "observing the Law" and used that as a sword to justify my loathing of those who didn't.

I used every single reasoning you have used in these threads - I am very familiar with them.

And what was the fruit for all that effort? My relationship with God was greatly diminished - not because He had left me, but because I had left Him in pursuit of my own self image of righteousness based on my understanding of Scripture. I totally ignored the advise of my brethren who tried to straighten my path, and I mistook their exhortation and love as pride, envy and error.

In the end I was back to where I began - I had nothing but a trail of fruitless effort that amounted to a literal heap of dung. Exactly back where I was at when I came to God the first time with nothing.

But this time, and I tell you the truth here - God told me to LISTEN TO HIM! And that is where my true transformation began, because at that point I began to allow God to transform me into His Image. And what did I have the second time I came before Him on my knees?

I had the knowledge that even after salvation, my own works still amounted to a pile of dung.

So I will tell you that a "spiritual mind" is a mind that abides in Him. How? Two words:

Shema Yeshua

So, how does this wind it's way back to Ephesians? Because it is He who created the fruit of the Spirit, not us. We abide in Him, we obey Him and we are conduits of Him, but we can not be Him on our own. How do we keep something God created?

Unity. It is okay to have disputes, differences and debates - as Jesus said, we are all brothers with One Teacher, but we are brothers (and sisters) - all declared righteous in Christ but none of us are a finished work, lest we boast. That is just a fact. That means we are compelled to rely on each other more than ever.

Our differences among ourselves are not the issue here. What is the issue is how we handle them. Justifying a difference by claiming others are disobedience or not spiritually minded is not how God asks us to handle these differences. And going out into the world practicing differences not accepted by the universal church community is really crossing the line. This is how cults form.

In Ephesians, Paul says we have "One Calling." This calling requires integrity in our walk. We are not called to practice hypocrisy, or to pick and choose our obedience to the Lord. And Paul insinuates this is impossible without the right attitude. What is the right attitude? It goes right back to what the Lord requires of us in Micah 6:8 -

HUMILITY - The greatest problem with humility these days (and I assume in Paul's day) is that we associate our identity with whatever our denomination may be or our own view of righteousness and obedience to the Lord. "Well...I/we don't....." is the first sign of a proud heart, not a humble heart. Immediately there is a separation and a positional jockeying being proclaimed and that leads to stinky fruit that displeases God, I can imagine to no end. Our "pride" should be in Jesus Christ alone. There is no room outside of Him for such things. When Christ is the source of glory, there is no distinction among His People. In that, we have unity. Not a unity we create, but THE Unity He created before the foundation of the earth. In obedience to Christ, we keep that unity, we do not play around with it, make it conditional or subject it to our personal standards. Unity belongs to Him, not us.

Gentleness - Meekness is a difficult definition because it has no relationship to weakness. While we must stand firm in the ways of the Lord, the quality of meekness is "not being overly impressed with our own importance." All who genuinely come to the Lord come with nothing and we need to understand that every gift, every work and every act of obedience that is worth it's value has it's value from the Lord.

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Do not confuse "gentle" with allowing false doctrine and hypocrisy to creep into God's Kingdom. Neither Moses nor Jesus nor His disciples tolerated any poisonous doctrine into the congregation of God's people.

Yet gentleness manifested by patience, forbearance, correction and grace is the fruit of unity that God created and we are commanded to keep.

Which leads to patience. Basically patience is the ability to bear up under provocation. Because God put up with us basically, we are obligated to keep yet another quality He created - longsuffering.

Agape Love - Again, God's creation. We keep it. This requires "love" in our language to become a verb. Love is well described by Paul, we all know the chapter/verse.

Bond of Peace - God created this "I give you My Peace...." We are to keep it and make every effort to keep unity OF THE SPIRIT within the body. "Keep" in this context is "closely guard" - in the same way the flaming swords guard the Garden of Eden. I see this applied many times in this thread in an effort to correct the faulty doctrines presented.

I believe that all these elements have been exercised by other posters in this and other threads you have started JbF. We remain patient, we remain equipped to present doctrinal error in as many ways as we see possible. At some point JbF, you need to respond to all the patience, love, kindness and exhortation we have enweaved to help you with. We are all real, genuine disciples of God who have studied, learned, stumbled, fallen, erred, been corrected, repented, and we all love the Lord. We are begging you to slow down and consider all of our testimonies are true and driven by God and given to glorify God, not ourselves.

God has given us One Body, One Spirit and One Hope. Our hope is found in nothing else but Christ alone.

If that is true, than anything the "old man" has dragged into our DNA needs to be recognized and expunged. This is what establishes our peace -

Our dependency is on God, not our own self sufficiency
Our righteousness is in the Lord Jesus, not our own works
Our hope is in Jesus, not on our own works
Our peace is in Jesus, not on our own satisfaction with whatever we feel our obedience should lay
Our love is given to keep, not put conditions on.

Put we can't establish any of these real fruits of the Spirit if we can't Seek Justice, love mercy and walk humbly with our God.

So, I beg you JbF, to beseech God on these matters and to listen to Him. At this point, it seems to me that you are so cemented in your doctrine that only His Voice can free you.

Please listen to Him. Shema Yeshua

Peace be with you

ChangedByHim
Jun 8th 2017, 05:22 PM
Does your post have anything to do with this?




Jude

Can we keep accusations against non-members here out of the thread?

justbyfaith
Jun 8th 2017, 09:02 PM
Hi keck553,

First of all let me say thank you for responding to me with a different attitude than is normal for you.

Concerning post #2, suffice it to say that the difference between 1 Timothy 4:1-6 and Matthew 5:19 is almost a contradiction that I cannot reconcile in the scriptures. I have strived to reconcile this seeming contradiction in my posts.

Now concerning your latter post, I just want to say that I truly believe that the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ. I do not preach the law because I believe men will be saved by keeping it, but because it is a factor in converting the soul (Psalm 19:7) in showing man his sin (Romans 3:20) as a schhoolmaster to lead him to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

I do not place my trust in the law for my own salvation; but certain of you have even tried to place me under the law by telling me to observe everything in it. I believe the law is God's holy righteous standard. Is that false doctrine? But I also know that as believers we are not under the law, and yet scriipture says that it is written on the heart and mind of the New Covenant believer. So far so good. I don't think I've said anything contrary to scripture. In fact, Hebrews 8:10 and 10:16, quoted from Jeremiah 31:33, can only be talking about the Old Testament law since the "law of Christ" as a certain false teacher at grace-centered forums has coined it, was not even really given at the time of Jeremiah's prophecy.

I believe that Romans 13:8-10 and 1 John 5:2-3 tell us that if we break any of the commandments we are violating the law of love...love is the fulfillment of the law....in Romans 13:8-10 there is a list of commandments and then it says, "and if there be any other commandment" it is fulfilled by love. Therefore if I am loving my neighbor as myself I will not break any of those commandments. Do you follow? Is there anything illlogical in what I am saying?

Now of course I see your side of the issue. Galatians 5:4 tells us that if we begin to think we are justified by the law, we have fallen from grace. But I certainly don't think I am justified by the law. I obey the law because I love the Lord and that is all. I obey and teach others to obey the least of the commandments in the law because I want to be called great in the kingdom. I do not command others to abstain from meats, as the KJV puts it in 1 Timothy 4:1-6 as being the fruit of something negative. But if I teach that the laws in Leviticus 11 are valid, while also teaching that there is no condemnation if one does not keep them as a believer, am I not reconciling the seeming contradiction between Matthew 5:19 and 1 Timothy 4:1-6 when Leviticus 11 is held in as a factor? I mean, is it the Lord's will that no one be great in the kingdom, that everyone be the least? That no one even be able to teach the least of these commandments because of 1 Timothy 4:1-6? I believe there will be varying degrees of reward when we get there, don't you? Otherwise where is the motivation to excel while we are on this planet?

Again, I obey the commandments of the Lord because I love Him and not to earn my salvation. I love Him because I am grateful for what He has done for me in dying on the Cross, and I place my trust completely in the Cross of Christ for my salvation.

I do not judge anyone over meat and drink either. If you think that I do because I said that the spiritually-minded are subject in their mind to the law of God, keep in mind that I was merely reiterating what the scripture already says (Romans 8:7). I was making no judgments of my own.

Unfortunately it is the evangelist who preaches the law in order to get people to understand their need of the Saviour who is often ostracized by people in the body of Christ who know that they themselves are not saved by law-keeping. This is not an issue for me: I understand fully that we are not saved by law-keeping. But I want you to understand that my audience in coming here is not only Christians. The law is a schoolmaster to lead the unbelieving to Christ.

Of course I understand that in Christ our obedience is not based on a set of do's and don'ts, but on walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Even in that, if a man walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh, the law will be fulfilled in him.

Romans 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Therefore if I walk according to the fruit of the Spirit I will not be violating any law. And therefore if I do violate a law, that tells me that I am not at that point bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Am I therefore condemned if I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit? I believe that the blood of Christ is more efficacious than to say that I would be condemned. And also the law came 430 years after God promised the Holy Spirit to Abraham, that this promise would come through his seed (which is Christ). And therefore the law cannot disanull the promise so that I would be devoid of the Spirit for violating a law found in scripture. There is grace.

That is one side of the coin. On the other side is the fact that the Holy Spirit dwells in me and through the Holy Spirit the love of God (Romans 5:5). And since love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14), the fact that love abides in my heart means that the law is fulfilled in my heart as it is written on my heart to obey the truth of God's love exemplified in the law. The law is merely the specifics of God's love is what I am saying.

Finally I want to remind you that the scripture commands you not to despise me (as being unsaved) if you find me to be a weaker brother who does not eat (Romans 14:3). Even though I consider myself rather to be a stronger brother who willingly has decided to bear the infirmities of the weak (Romans 14:15, 14:20-21, 15:1, 1 Corinthians 8:13) for love's sake, in not eating what would embolden my weaker brother to eat the same, which might go against his conscience.

justbyfaith
Jun 9th 2017, 12:19 AM
Not when those who confront use scripture and are widely in agreement in their interpretation of it. One could say the same of your rejection of the scriptures presented.

The thing is, hardly any scripture has been presented in disagreement with what I have said (that proves the point of the dissenter).

It has reallly only been statements by dissenters that they think of me as a false teacher.

For example, no scripture has been given to prove that Matthew 5:19 is not valid as I have presented it. At least, nothing substantial that would logically change my view. No scripture can nullify other scripture is what I am saying. So Matthew 5:19 stands in my mind as biblical truth no matter what kind of arguments you may try to bring against it...because arguments, even if they have verses behind them, are meant to be demolished by the weapons of our warfare, which are mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds, demolishing arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of the Lord.

justbyfaith
Jun 9th 2017, 12:21 AM
JbF, I'm on my phone so this will be short. Alone with God this morning, reflecting, some prayer, some worship as I smoke food for a dinner our church is doing for the community. Anyway, something came up while reading. Galatians 3:24.

I can say much concerning these innuendo style threads you've started, but I'm not led that way. How I am led is to inform you that God is trying to correct you through these efforts of rebellion on your part, by guiding many who have responded with His correction.

So, I gave to you all I am led to give along with that verse.

Galatians 3:24 is one of the primary reasons why I do what I do. Maybe you could elaborate on what the Lord showed you.

justbyfaith
Jun 9th 2017, 12:48 AM
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 2 These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.[a]

3 They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanks by faithful people who know the truth. 4 Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks. 5 For we know it is made acceptable[b] by the word of God and prayer.

edit---1 Timothy 4:1-5

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through bphilosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

edit--Colossians 2:8

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (Acts 15:6-11)

Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! (Philippians 3:1-8)

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

*************************************

keck553
Jun 9th 2017, 09:15 PM
Hi keck553,

First of all let me say thank you for responding to me with a different attitude than is normal for you.

Concerning post #2, suffice it to say that the difference between 1 Timothy 4:1-6 and Matthew 5:19 is almost a contradiction that I cannot reconcile in the scriptures. I have strived to reconcile this seeming contradiction in my posts.

Now concerning your latter post, I just want to say that I truly believe that the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ. I do not preach the law because I believe men will be saved by keeping it, but because it is a factor in converting the soul (Psalm 19:7) in showing man his sin (Romans 3:20) as a schhoolmaster to lead him to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

I do not place my trust in the law for my own salvation; but certain of you have even tried to place me under the law by telling me to observe everything in it. I believe the law is God's holy righteous standard. Is that false doctrine? But I also know that as believers we are not under the law, and yet scriipture says that it is written on the heart and mind of the New Covenant believer. So far so good. I don't think I've said anything contrary to scripture. In fact, Hebrews 8:10 and 10:16, quoted from Jeremiah 31:33, can only be talking about the Old Testament law since the "law of Christ" as a certain false teacher at grace-centered forums has coined it, was not even really given at the time of Jeremiah's prophecy.

I believe that Romans 13:8-10 and 1 John 5:2-3 tell us that if we break any of the commandments we are violating the law of love...love is the fulfillment of the law....in Romans 13:8-10 there is a list of commandments and then it says, "and if there be any other commandment" it is fulfilled by love. Therefore if I am loving my neighbor as myself I will not break any of those commandments. Do you follow? Is there anything illlogical in what I am saying?

Now of course I see your side of the issue. Galatians 5:4 tells us that if we begin to think we are justified by the law, we have fallen from grace. But I certainly don't think I am justified by the law. I obey the law because I love the Lord and that is all. I obey and teach others to obey the least of the commandments in the law because I want to be called great in the kingdom. I do not command others to abstain from meats, as the KJV puts it in 1 Timothy 4:1-6 as being the fruit of something negative. But if I teach that the laws in Leviticus 11 are valid, while also teaching that there is no condemnation if one does not keep them as a believer, am I not reconciling the seeming contradiction between Matthew 5:19 and 1 Timothy 4:1-6 when Leviticus 11 is held in as a factor? I mean, is it the Lord's will that no one be great in the kingdom, that everyone be the least? That no one even be able to teach the least of these commandments because of 1 Timothy 4:1-6? I believe there will be varying degrees of reward when we get there, don't you? Otherwise where is the motivation to excel while we are on this planet?

Again, I obey the commandments of the Lord because I love Him and not to earn my salvation. I love Him because I am grateful for what He has done for me in dying on the Cross, and I place my trust completely in the Cross of Christ for my salvation.

I do not judge anyone over meat and drink either. If you think that I do because I said that the spiritually-minded are subject in their mind to the law of God, keep in mind that I was merely reiterating what the scripture already says (Romans 8:7). I was making no judgments of my own.

Unfortunately it is the evangelist who preaches the law in order to get people to understand their need of the Saviour who is often ostracized by people in the body of Christ who know that they themselves are not saved by law-keeping. This is not an issue for me: I understand fully that we are not saved by law-keeping. But I want you to understand that my audience in coming here is not only Christians. The law is a schoolmaster to lead the unbelieving to Christ.

Of course I understand that in Christ our obedience is not based on a set of do's and don'ts, but on walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Even in that, if a man walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh, the law will be fulfilled in him.

Romans 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Therefore if I walk according to the fruit of the Spirit I will not be violating any law. And therefore if I do violate a law, that tells me that I am not at that point bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Am I therefore condemned if I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit? I believe that the blood of Christ is more efficacious than to say that I would be condemned. And also the law came 430 years after God promised the Holy Spirit to Abraham, that this promise would come through his seed (which is Christ). And therefore the law cannot disanull the promise so that I would be devoid of the Spirit for violating a law found in scripture. There is grace.

That is one side of the coin. On the other side is the fact that the Holy Spirit dwells in me and through the Holy Spirit the love of God (Romans 5:5). And since love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14), the fact that love abides in my heart means that the law is fulfilled in my heart as it is written on my heart to obey the truth of God's love exemplified in the law. The law is merely the specifics of God's love is what I am saying.

Finally I want to remind you that the scripture commands you not to despise me (as being unsaved) if you find me to be a weaker brother who does not eat (Romans 14:3). Even though I consider myself rather to be a stronger brother who willingly has decided to bear the infirmities of the weak (Romans 14:15, 14:20-21, 15:1, 1 Corinthians 8:13) for love's sake, in not eating what would embolden my weaker brother to eat the same, which might go against his conscience.

Again, you are not listening.....sigh

justbyfaith
Jun 10th 2017, 12:33 AM
Try again then. I re-read your latter post just to try to get a hold of what you were saying.

Let me say that my last post in this thread was in response to two posts (both post #2 and your latter post, keck553), which two posts were written in a different spirit from each other. The first post, I felt was an attack, and I tried to answer it somewhat. The second post was given more in the spirit of humility and yet did not really add to me in any way. But I will continure to ponder it and hopefully come to the realization of what you are saying. I hope you will also re-read my posts along with the scriptures that I have referenced within them and ponder them so that you can come to the reaization of what I am saying. I feel that sometimes people don't take the time to look up references and their carnal mind kicks in because they didn't see the scripture backing up my words and because they disagree in the way that their natural mind works.

keck553
Jun 10th 2017, 01:02 AM
You still are not listening. You "feel" it was an attack but it was an exhortation.

As to re-visiting your dualism, contradictions and cherry-picking of the Law of Moses, I think I was pretty clear I had already been down that road and God convicted me to turn away from it. To go backwards would be an offense to God.

justbyfaith
Jun 10th 2017, 03:43 AM
Would it be an offence to God for Him to fulfill within your life Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, the inverse of Romans 8:7, and 1 Corinthians 9:21?

If these verses were absent from the word of God, I could see your point of view as being uncontested by scripture. But the fact is that these verses are in the word.

The key is to not ignore them but to integrate them into your theology!

And of course Matthew 5:17-20 is also important.

keck553
Jun 10th 2017, 07:09 PM
Would it be an offence to God for Him to fulfill within your life Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, the inverse of Romans 8:7, and 1 Corinthians 9:21?

If these verses were absent from the word of God, I could see your point of view as being uncontested by scripture. But the fact is that these verses are in the word.

The key is to not ignore them but to integrate them into your theology!

And of course Matthew 5:17-20 is also important.

What you are attempting to do is have a spiritual walk via the flesh. This is the root of your problem. You were never asked to walk between the cut in half animals, nor you were never required to be nailed to the cross. What you need to do is accept what He did for you. Stop trying to make it right with God by your works and just accept what He did as sufficient.

justbyfaith
Jun 10th 2017, 08:44 PM
What you are attempting to do is have a spiritual walk via the flesh. This is the root of your problem. You were never asked to walk between the cut in half animals, nor you were never required to be nailed to the cross. What you need to do is accept what He did for you. Stop trying to make it right with God by your works and just accept what He did as sufficient.

That's where you've got it wrong concerning me (I don't think you have really even read my posts).

I am not trying to get right with God through my works, I know that I am right with Him through the finished work of the Cross.

Out of thankfulness for what He did for me, is my motivation for any and all obedience on my part.

I know and understand fully that any of my own rigtheousnesses would be as filthy rags before Him. But my faith in Him, and love for Him, which results in work and labour, is fine linen in His sight. See Revelation 19:8 w/ Philippians 3:9; and 1 Thessalonians 1:3.

justbyfaith
Jun 11th 2017, 12:32 AM
You still are not listening. You "feel" it was an attack but it was an exhortation.

As to re-visiting your dualism, contradictions and cherry-picking of the Law of Moses, I think I was pretty clear I had already been down that road and God convicted me to turn away from it. To go backwards would be an offense to God.

I do not "cherry-pick" from the law of Moses. I do my best to obey everything that I understand within it...everything that began as a seed and grew to become a fruit-bearing plant as doctrine in my mind and heart.

As for contradictions, there are none in my mind concerning anything that I have said. You would do well to seek to reconcile any seeming contradictions in your own mind. In doing so, you will gain proper understanding; if you do so.

keck553
Jun 11th 2017, 12:58 AM
That's where you've got it wrong concerning me (I don't think you have really even read my posts).

I am not trying to get right with God through my works, I know that I am right with Him through the finished work of the Cross.

Out of thankfulness for what He did for me, is my motivation for any and all obedience on my part.

I know and understand fully that any of my own rigtheousnesses would be as filthy rags before Him. But my faith in Him, and love for Him, which results in work and labour, is fine linen in His sight. See Revelation 19:8 w/ Philippians 3:9; and 1 Thessalonians 1:3.

We love Him also JbF. Yet we don't have the food laws written on our hearts. Would you care to explain this? Can you also tell us the last time you told an unbeliever that eating a pork chop is a sin?

keck553
Jun 11th 2017, 01:01 AM
I do not "cherry-pick" from the law of Moses. I do my best to obey everything that I understand within it...everything that began as a seed and grew to become a fruit-bearing plant as doctrine in my mind and heart.

Apparently you aren't obeying tithing laws. What about Sabbath? Here you are, on Sabbath? Are you obeying Sabbath today?


As for contradictions, there are none in my mind concerning anything that I have said. You would do well to seek to reconcile any seeming contradictions in your own mind. In doing so, you will gain proper understanding; if you do so.

None in your mind? I thought God wrote all the Laws of Moses on our hearts. How come you don't know them all if they are written on your heart?

We have pointed out a few of your contradictions. Are you pretending not to read them?

justbyfaith
Jun 11th 2017, 05:45 AM
Apparently you aren't obeying tithing laws. What about Sabbath? Here you are, on Sabbath? Are you obeying Sabbath today?

I'm beginning to tire in my answering of your questions, but I will answer you, though you could probably ascertain the answer from previous posts by me.

When we look at the law it is as those with whom the vail has been taken away. The sabbath is fulfilled in the New Testament in that Jesus is our sabbath rest. And jot and tittle about sabbath has not passed away in thiis bacause it abides as a type and shadow



None in your mind? I thought God wrote all the Laws of Moses on our hearts. How come you don't know them all if they are written on your heart?

You will find the answer to this question in other of my posts.



We have pointed out a few of your contradictions. Are you pretending not to read them?

I have not seen any contradictions that you have poinred out, and I am certainly not "pretending" anything.

justbyfaith
Jun 11th 2017, 05:49 AM
We love Him also JbF. Yet we don't have the food laws written on our hearts. Would you care to explain this? Can you also tell us the last time you told an unbeliever that eating a pork chop is a sin?

Here on these boards.

As for why you don't have the food laws written on your heart, maybe you don't understand your New Testament well enough.

Slug1
Jun 11th 2017, 01:01 PM
Here on these boards.

As for why you don't have the food laws written on your heart, maybe you don't understand your New Testament well enough.Is it a sin for males in the Body to shave his face and sides of his head? Since, this is another Law that must be written on a new believers heart... if one was to follow your interpretation of the New Covenant with God, through Jesus, as led by the Holy Spirit...

jesusinmylife
Jun 11th 2017, 01:14 PM
Here on these boards.

As for why you don't have the food laws written on your heart, maybe you don't understand your New Testament well enough.

Wow. It's a shame you look down on your fellow brothers and sisters that way. This helps no one.

Brother Mark
Jun 11th 2017, 01:21 PM
I have not seen any contradictions that you have pointed out, and I am certainly not "pretending" anything.

Well, you say that we need to "keep" the law in our hearts. But the tithing law was not about money. Only plants and animals were ever tithed. Yet, you give money while arguing that the jot and tittle are to be kept. So giving money as a tithe is not keeping the jot and tittle of the law.

Throughout the OT we see believers offering bulls and goats on altars. Not in the temple or tabernacle, but altars made outside the temple/tabernacle. But that isn't something that we need to keep?

James makes it clear that if we break one part of the law we are guilty of all.

As for us, we see the Law of Moses as having faded away leaving us only with types and shadows. We live by the Spirit of the law, but not the letter. The letter kills but the Spirit gives live. The jot and tittle are living by the letter. The law is a ministry of death.

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
NASU

When the law was given, 3000 people died. When the Spirit was given, 3000 people got saved.

One last thing that is important to consider... you keep saying we are "dead to the law" and therefore not under it. Yet, then you turn around and say this law, that we are dead to, is written into our hearts. Paul speaks of our relationship to the law and to Christ as marriage. In Romans 7, he goes to great lengths to show that we are dead to the law, in order to be married to Jesus....

Question... how would your wife like it, if you said "I am dead to my old girlfriend, but she is written into my heart and alive in my heart"? One either keeps Jesus in his heart, and the Law of God, and is dead to the Law of Moses, or he keeps the Law of Moses and lives unto it in his heart. One should not be married/betrothed, in his heart to Christ and the Law of Moses. We are dead to one and alive to other. Not married to both.

Grace and peace,

Mark

keck553
Jun 11th 2017, 02:02 PM
So who in this board are unbelievers? You posted eating pork is a sin in Bible Chat. Don't be shy, tell us who the unbelievers are.

Furthermore, I don't understand the gist of your posts. You say it is a sin to eat pork, but in Christ one is justified to eat pork, but a 'spiritually minded' believer wouldn't eat pork, so that implies ALL Christians who eat pork are carnal minded and in 'spiritual disobedience.'

Except you of course - and those things in the Law of Moses you choose to ignore either haven't been 'revealed' to you or they 'have been fulfilled' so the jot and tittle are still there but don't apply to you. Like Sabbath. But the food laws apparently haven't been fulfilled which means you still need to remain ritually clean. Why do you need to be ritually clean? Do you sacrifice bulls at a physical temple? Do you report mold to a Levite priest? If no, why not? It's in the same category as food laws. Even Jesus told the leper to go to a priest, so why do you not obey this cleanliness law? Do you practice ritual cleanliness with you wife? Do you shave the 4 corners of your beard? Wear Tzizit? Or are these laws ignored? Maybe we should list all the laws so you can inform us which ones God decided to write on your heart (but ignore our hearts apparently). And I still have this dilemma about you saying it's sin for an unbeliever to eat pork but somehow it becomes not sin for a believer to eat pork.

kyCyd
Jun 11th 2017, 02:03 PM
Here on these boards.

As for why you don't have the food laws written on your heart, maybe you don't understand your New Testament well enough.

Maybe you being convicted of it is for a reason, to learn something, or maybe God is protecting you from something, or maybe you had a love for it greater than the love for God. That should be between you and God, I don't see anywhere you are to teach it, you are to preach the gospel. Jesus himself addressed this pretty sternly too calling a multitude to him about it:

Matthew 15:10-11 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

That settles the matter to me.

Slug1
Jun 11th 2017, 10:28 PM
James 5:19-20... correction of error, is paramount. Paul lived up to this word from James... as he pointed out the errors of many. The 4th letter, err... the 2nd letter to the Corinthians was even an effort to defend himself against some who were in error.

Anyway... we can't justify ourselves by following hand picked statutes of the Law... no way, no how (you try).

It is NEVER what we put into our mouth that makes us unrighteous, it's only what come out... of our mouth. Also, not one person in the Body today is under any obligation to follow ANY statute of the Law... instead we are to follow or be "led by" the Holy Spirit.


Maybe you being convicted of it is for a reason, to learn something, or maybe God is protecting you from something, or maybe you had a love for it greater than the love for God. That should be between you and God, I don't see anywhere you are to teach it, you are to preach the gospel. Jesus himself addressed this pretty sternly too calling a multitude to him about it:

Matthew 15:10-11 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

That settles the matter to me.Hooah and Amen!

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 03:40 AM
Well, you say that we need to "keep" the law in our hearts. But the tithing law was not about money. Only plants and animals were ever tithed. Yet, you give money while arguing that the jot and tittle are to be kept. So giving money as a tithe is not keeping the jot and tittle of the law.

Actually it is...see Deuteronomy 14:22-25.



Throughout the OT we see believers offering bulls and goats on altars. Not in the temple or tabernacle, but altars made outside the temple/tabernacle. But that isn't something that we need to keep?

James makes it clear that if we break one part of the law we are guilty of all.

As for us, we see the Law of Moses as having faded away leaving us only with types and shadows. We live by the Spirit of the law, but not the letter. The letter kills but the Spirit gives live. The jot and tittle are living by the letter. The law is a ministry of death.

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
NASU

When the law was given, 3000 people died. When the Spirit was given, 3000 people got saved.

One last thing that is important to consider... you keep saying we are "dead to the law" and therefore not under it. Yet, then you turn around and say this law, that we are dead to, is written into our hearts. Paul speaks of our relationship to the law and to Christ as marriage. In Romans 7, he goes to great lengths to show that we are dead to the law, in order to be married to Jesus....

Question... how would your wife like it, if you said "I am dead to my old girlfriend, but she is written into my heart and alive in my heart"? One either keeps Jesus in his heart, and the Law of God, and is dead to the Law of Moses, or he keeps the Law of Moses and lives unto it in his heart. One should not be married/betrothed, in his heart to Christ and the Law of Moses. We are dead to one and alive to other. Not married to both.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Hi Mark,

The only reason I say that the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers is because the scripture says so. Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 03:43 AM
Wow. It's a shame you look down on your fellow brothers and sisters that way. This helps no one.

How is it that you figure I'm looking down on anyone? lack of understanding is no reason to look down on anyone..I'm certain that I also lack ubnderstanding in many areas of the Bible as we can never plumb the depths of the theology found within it.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 03:48 AM
Maybe you being convicted of it is for a reason, to learn something, or maybe God is protecting you from something, or maybe you had a love for it greater than the love for God. That should be between you and God, I don't see anywhere you are to teach it, you are to preach the gospel. Jesus himself addressed this pretty sternly too calling a multitude to him about it:

Matthew 15:10-11 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

That settles the matter to me.

Hello kyCyd,

I believe that Jesus said in Matthew 5:19 that I am to observe and teach it.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 03:50 AM
Hi Mark,

The only reason I say that the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers is because the scripture says so. Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16.

Hebrews was written to Jews. Gentiles are not of the house of Israel or the house of Judah. Where does the writer of Hebrews say the Torah of Moses is written on our hearts?

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 03:52 AM
Hooah and Amen!

I agree that in the New Testament no one is under any obligation to obey any law... (that is what I have been saying all along)

I myself obey what I do obey out of love for and thankfulness to the Lord over what He has done for me.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 03:54 AM
How is it that you figure I'm looking down on anyone? lack of understanding is no reason to look down on anyone..I'm certain that I also lack ubnderstanding in many areas of the Bible as we can never plumb the depths of the theology found within it.

That's a pretty arrogant statement. Of all the billions of Christians who have worshipped God in the past 2 millennia, you and a few others have a unique understanding of the food laws while the vast majority, including major theologians lack understanding?

I have no lack of understanding regarding the Law of Moses. And neither do 99% of all Christians who came before you.


Hello kyCyd,

I believe that Jesus said in Matthew 5:19 that I am to observe and teach it.

You believe your misinterpretation of Matthew 5:19 and falsely teach the Law of Moses to Christians.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 04:01 AM
I agree that in the New Testament no one is under any obligation to obey any law... (that is what I have been saying all along)

This is an oxymoron. Laws are for the carnal minded. Since born again Christians are a new creation, we obey God naturally.


I myself obey what I do obey out of love for and thankfulness to the Lord over what He has done for me.

We obey the Lord because He put our old man to death and created us as new creations from above.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 05:34 AM
That's a pretty arrogant statement. Of all the billions of Christians who have worshipped God in the past 2 millennia, you and a few others have a unique understanding of the food laws while the vast majority, including major theologians lack understanding?

The oracles of God were given to the circumcision: Romans 3:1-2. See also Philippians 3:3, Colossians 4:11, and Romans 15:8.



I have no lack of understanding regarding the Law of Moses. And neither do 99% of all Christians who came before you.



You believe your misinterpretation of Matthew 5:19 and falsely teach the Law of Moses to Christians.

Why don't you give us the true interpretation then. Quote it and then expound on it.

Here, I'll help you...

Matthew 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

expound away!

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 05:38 AM
Hebrews was written to Jews. Gentiles are not of the house of Israel or the house of Judah. Where does the writer of Hebrews say the Torah of Moses is written on our hearts?

The question you have to ask yourself in reading Hebrews 8:8-10 and Hebrews 10:16 is, does the New Covenant apply only to Jews? Or does it apply to Gentiies also?

Hebrews 8:10 an 10:16 define the New Covenant for us if you look at it in its context...see Hebrews 8:8-9.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 07:06 AM
edited some recent posts. #32 and #39.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 07:09 AM
This is an oxymoron. Laws are for the carnal minded. Since born again Christians are a new creation, we obey God naturally.

Now you're getting it! That means the law is written on our hearts and minds.

Of course, where you're wrong is that scripture says that the carnally-minded are NOT subject to the law of God in their minds (Romans 8:7). Therefore the spiritually-minded would by default be subject in their minds to the law of the Lord.



We obey the Lord because He put our old man to death and created us as new creations from above.

That too.

kyCyd
Jun 12th 2017, 09:39 AM
Here, I'll help you...

Matthew 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

expound away!

Jesus goes on in Mt 5 talking about the laws, pointing out that it is more than just the physical, pointing out that no man can keep them, which is what should be taught. This is what Jesus said about the law re what to teach:

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

It is Jesus words that will judge us, not anyone elses:

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

It is Jesus's words that will never pass away, that is not said about any other words in our Bible:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So I will have to agree to disagree with your teaching of Moses. We were told to preach the gospel, not Moses.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Pbminimum
Jun 12th 2017, 12:25 PM
Of course, where you're wrong is that scripture says that the carnally-minded are NOT subject to the law of God in their minds (Romans 8:7). Therefore the spiritually-minded would by default be subject in their minds to the law of the Lord.


They are condemned already. But this doesn't mean that the law is without effect to them. It was the law that condemned them.

Slug1
Jun 12th 2017, 12:31 PM
I agree that in the New Testament no one is under any obligation to obey any law... (that is what I have been saying all along)

I myself obey what I do obey out of love for and thankfulness to the Lord over what He has done for me.Soon as you say... "I myself obey what I obey..." you are falling away from true obedience. The part where you say, "out of love..." is nothing more than carnal justification. The Galatians did the same thing as you, Paul was obedient to God and sent them a letter to correct their error of picking and choosing what parts of the Law, "they loved" and replaced the grace of Jesus... with those "loved" statutes of the Law.

Again, Paul asked if they were bewitched to fall away from following Christ when they fell BACK into following Laws, they loved.

Love of... does not lead one to fall away as you say members of the Body are to do. Paul was very clear... STOP!

CadyandZoe
Jun 12th 2017, 12:54 PM
Of course I understand that in Christ our obedience is not based on a set of do's and don'ts, but on walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Even in that, if a man walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh, the law will be fulfilled in him.

Romans 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.In this passage, Paul isn't saying that the law will be fulfilled by those who walk according to the spirit. His position is that the "righteousness of the law" will be fulfilled in us. But bear in mind that Paul has coined the Greek word "dikaiosune:righteousness" to indicate the moment when God has accounted forgiveness and pardon to an individual. Romans 8:4 is understood to say, "That the forgiveness and pardon, which is an aspect of the law, might be fulfilled in us, who walk after the spirit." Paul isn't saying that the ordinances and statutes of the law are fulfilled by those who walk in the Spirit; he is saying that the promise of forgiveness and pardon found in the law will be fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit.

CadyandZoe
Jun 12th 2017, 12:59 PM
Of course, where you're wrong is that scripture says that the carnally-minded are NOT subject to the law of God in their minds (Romans 8:7). Therefore the spiritually-minded would by default be subject in their minds to the law of the Lord.When Paul gives his personal testimony, and in that testimony says that he serves the law with his mind, he is speaking from the standpoint of a Jew living under the law. It would be a mistake, in my view, to translated that into my Gentile experience. I could never say that I am serving the law with my mind, since the law was not given to me. All I can say, for certain, is that I am serving the law-giver in my mind.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 01:14 PM
The oracles of God were given to the circumcision: Romans 3:1-2. See also Philippians 3:3, Colossians 4:11, and Romans 15:8.

Are you a Jew under the old covenant?




Why don't you give us the true interpretation then. Quote it and then expound on it.

Here, I'll help you...

Matthew 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

expound away!

This perfectly illustrates you can't earn you way into the kingdom. You missed that?

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 01:16 PM
The question you have to ask yourself in reading Hebrews 8:8-10 and Hebrews 10:16 is, does the New Covenant apply only to Jews? Or does it apply to Gentiies also?

Yes and yes, but the prophecy was written for Jews. For Gentiles, see Isaiah, Joel and the fulfillment in Acts.


Hebrews 8:10 an 10:16 define the New Covenant for us if you look at it in its context...see Hebrews 8:8-9.

So stop following the old one....

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 01:17 PM
Now you're getting it! That means the law is written on our hearts and minds.
I didn't say we naturally obey the Law of Moses, I said we naturally obey God. If you can't even interpret my posts, how can you rely on your own Biblical interpretations?


Of course, where you're wrong is that scripture says that the carnally-minded are NOT subject to the law of God in their minds (Romans 8:7). Therefore the spiritually-minded would by default be subject in their minds to the law of the Lord.

So either the Pharisees were not subject to the Law of Moses or they were spiritually minded? Really? Expound on that please.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 07:34 PM
Jesus goes on in Mt 5 talking about the laws, pointing out that it is more than just the physical, pointing out that no man can keep them, which is what should be taught. This is what Jesus said about the law re what to teach:

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

It is Jesus words that will judge us, not anyone elses:

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

It is Jesus's words that will never pass away, that is not said about any other words in our Bible:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So I will have to agree to disagree with your teaching of Moses. We were told to preach the gospel, not Moses.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

See Galatians 3:24. Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4, Psalm 19:7.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 07:41 PM
Soon as you say... "I myself obey what I obey..." you are falling away from true obedience.

So true obedience is to NOT OBEY?




The part where you say, "out of love..." is nothing more than carnal justification.

Please give scriture to back your words. Otherwise you are merely judging carnally.


The Galatians did the same thing as you, Paul was obedient to God and sent them a letter to correct their error of picking and choosing what parts of the Law, "they loved" and replaced the grace of Jesus... with those "loved" statutes of the Law.

Again, Paul asked if they were bewitched to fall away from following Christ when they fell BACK into following Laws, they loved.

Love of... does not lead one to fall away as you say members of the Body are to do. Paul was very clear... STOP!

You need to take the whole of scripture into account. It is not falling away to be obedient to the word. Look up such scriptures as Matthew 5:19, 1 Corinthians 15:34 w/ 1 John 3:4 and Romans 3:20, and others.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 07:44 PM
Are you a Jew under the old covenant?



This perfectly illustrates you can't earn you way into the kingdom. You missed that?

I'm actually interested in how you think that says that. Expound! Show us how it says what you say it says. btw, I'm definitely in agreement that we can't earn our way into the kingdom.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 07:52 PM
Yes and yes, but the prophecy was written for Jews. For Gentiles, see Isaiah, Joel and the fulfillment in Acts.


So stop following the old one....

The New Covenant, in Hebrews 8:10, is defined as follows (it seems you forgot this already since I have quoted this verse to you in the past):

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, i will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Now in Hebrews 10:16 this is repeated except it doesn't apply only to the house of Israel, it applies to a group defined as "them". To find out who "them" is you need to look at the context. It is those who have been perfected for ever because they are sanctified. I think that includes New Covenant Christians who are Gentiles.

As you have agreed that the New Covenant applies to Gentiles also, and the New Covenant is defined as the law being written on the heart and mind, here in these verses.

Slug1
Jun 12th 2017, 07:54 PM
So true obedience is to NOT OBEY?




Please give scriture to back your words. Otherwise you are merely judging carnally.

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?


By choosing to "be obedient" to God means to pick a few Laws, ignore the rest and think this is obeying God... are you bewitched?

The Holy Spirit is perfecting you. You are not being perfected by choosing a couple Law to love, follow them, and think you are OK with that?

Paul says.... STOP!

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 08:00 PM
I didn't say we naturally obey the Law of Moses, I said we naturally obey God. If you can't even interpret my posts, how can you rely on your own Biblical interpretations?

I was really going by the reality more than what you meant.

God gave the law to Moses, according to you it was so that we might not obey it.

To obey the law of Moses is to obey God. God gave the law to Moses to give to us. It is God's law.



So either the Pharisees were not subject to the Law of Moses or they were spiritually minded? Really? Expound on that please.

I'm not sure what you're saying there so please reiterate it in different words.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 08:17 PM
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?


By choosing to "be obedient" to God means to pick a few Laws, ignore the rest and think this is obeying God... are you bewitched?

The Holy Spirit is perfecting you. You are not being perfected by choosing a couple Law to love, follow them, and think you are OK with that?

Paul says.... STOP!

What do you make of Romans 8:7? Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God: neither indeed can be.

If my mind is subject to the law does that mean I am being perfected by the flesh? Is the spiritually-minded person one who has departed from faith in Jesus Christ?

The subject of Galatians is that we cannot be justified by the law. The Galatians were seeking to be justified by the law, and that is the context of Galatians 3:2- 6.

Paul does not intimate that the law will not be fulfilled in the Galatians as they continue in faith. He exhorts them to love and that this is the fulfilling of the law. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc, and against such there is no law. Thus no law will be violated by anyone who walks in the fruit of the Spirit. And therefore if I violate a law, it tells me that I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Thus the law is a measuring stick.

But of course my whole salvation is based on faith in Christ. If therefore I obey certain things in the Old Testament because of Matthew 5:19, since I am not basing my salvation on that obedience Galatians 3:2-6 does not apply. As long as my obedience is the result of my salvation and not the root in my mind, I am basing my salvation on faith in Christ and am therefore being perfected by faith in Christ.

But what you have said, I have noted. It is a good point. If you answer Romans 8:7 you may even get me to fully believe your point of view.

Slug1
Jun 12th 2017, 08:42 PM
What do you make of Romans 8:7? Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God: neither indeed can be.

If my mind is subject to the law does that mean I am being perfected by the flesh? Is the spiritually-minded person one who has departed from faith in Jesus Christ?

The subject of Galatians is that we cannot be justified by the law. The Galatians were seeking to be justified by the law, and that is the context of Galatians 3:2- 6.

Paul does not intimate that the law will not be fulfilled in the Galatians as they continue in faith. He exhorts them to love and that this is the fulfilling of the law. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc, and against such there is no law. Thus no law will be violated by anyone who walks in the fruit of the Spirit.

But of course my whole salvation is based on faith in Christ. If therefore I obey certain things in the Old Testament because of Matthew 5:19, since I am not basing my salvation on that obedience Galatians 3:2-6 does not apply. As long as my obedience is the result of my salvation and not the root in my mind, I am basing my salvation on faith in Christ and am therefore being perfected by faith in Christ.

But what you have said, I have noted. It is a good point. If you answer Romans 8:7 you may even get me to fully believe your point of view.Romans 8:7's premise is set by v5:

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Verse 7 is about how those who are carnal will not follow God, SPIRITUALLY. Such a person sins, is thus rebelling against God and cannot please God.

Yes, salvation is through Christ ONLY. Not in following any Law. Even when there WAS ONLY the Law, mankind CANNOT follow it toward righteousness because mankind (the Jews) cannot complete it. To be righteous in accordance of the Law, you have to follow ALL the Law, without failing in ANY of the Law. ALL failed.



And therefore if I violate a law, it tells me that I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Thus the law is a measuring stick.

A person following the Law bears NOTHING of the Spirit (v5). ONLY by following the Spirit, does one bear fruit of the Spirit.

v9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

All you have been saying is about "justification" based on the Law and not by the Spirit. The Law isn't gonna help you "belong" to Christ. Only the Spirit and when one foregoes the Spirit and decides to follow hand picked statutes of the Law, they are GUILTY of the exact same error that the Galatians were guilty of.

Paul says... STOP!

The Spirit assures you that you are a son of God... not your actions of following a few Laws. You are saying in all these many threads you started, that BY FOLLOWING THESE FEW LAWS (because I love them in the name of God), I am of Christ.

Paul says... STOP!

CadyandZoe
Jun 12th 2017, 09:12 PM
The New Covenant, in Hebrews 8:10, is defined as follows (it seems you forgot this already since I have quoted this verse to you in the past):

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, i will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Now in Hebrews 10:16 this is repeated except it doesn't apply only to the house of Israel, it applies to a group defined as "them". To find out who "them" is you need to look at the context. It is those who have been perfected for ever because they are sanctified. I think that includes New Covenant Christians who are Gentiles.

As you have agreed that the New Covenant applies to Gentiles also, and the New Covenant is defined as the law being written on the heart and mind, here in these verses.

This prophecy is directed at two houses: the house of Israel and the house of Judah. God will write his law on their hearts.

CadyandZoe
Jun 12th 2017, 09:19 PM
What do you make of Romans 8:7? Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God: neither indeed can be.

If my mind is subject to the law does that mean I am being perfected by the flesh? Is the spiritually-minded person one who has departed from faith in Jesus Christ?

The subject of Galatians is that we cannot be justified by the law. The Galatians were seeking to be justified by the law, and that is the context of Galatians 3:2- 6.

Paul does not intimate that the law will not be fulfilled in the Galatians as they continue in faith. He exhorts them to love and that this is the fulfilling of the law. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc, and against such there is no law. Thus no law will be violated by anyone who walks in the fruit of the Spirit. And therefore if I violate a law, it tells me that I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Thus the law is a measuring stick.

But of course my whole salvation is based on faith in Christ. If therefore I obey certain things in the Old Testament because of Matthew 5:19, since I am not basing my salvation on that obedience Galatians 3:2-6 does not apply. As long as my obedience is the result of my salvation and not the root in my mind, I am basing my salvation on faith in Christ and am therefore being perfected by faith in Christ.

But what you have said, I have noted. It is a good point. If you answer Romans 8:7 you may even get me to fully believe your point of view.

Paul's point here is to say that the carnal mind can not be convicted by the law of God. He isn't talking about obeying the law here. Obedience is not about what we think, it's about what we do. To subject your mind to the law of God doesn't mean you are doing what the law says; rather to subject your mind to the law of God is to allow the Law to be a mirror, showing you and me what kind of persons we are, i.e. a sinners.

Paul is saying that self-proclaimed righteous people can't let their mind go there because if they subjected their mind to the law, allowing it to act as a mirror, they could no longer remain a self-proclaimed righteous person.

justbyfaith
Jun 13th 2017, 01:46 AM
Paul's point here is to say that the carnal mind can not be convicted by the law of God. He isn't talking about obeying the law here. Obedience is not about what we think, it's about what we do. To subject your mind to the law of God doesn't mean you are doing what the law says; rather to subject your mind to the law of God is to allow the Law to be a mirror, showing you and me what kind of persons we are, i.e. a sinners.

Paul is saying that self-proclaimed righteous people can't let their mind go there because if they subjected their mind to the law, allowing it to act as a mirror, they could no longer remain a self-proclaimed righteous person.

In context of Romans 8:7 is Romans 8:4, which says that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. If it is fulfiled in me then it is fulfilled by me. If the inside of the cup and dish is clean, the outside will be clean also.

So when it says three verses later that if I am spiritually-minded I am subject in my mind to the law of God, the fact that this will have an effect on my behaviour ought not to be rejected in my thinking.

justbyfaith
Jun 13th 2017, 01:49 AM
This prophecy is directed at two houses: the house of Israel and the house of Judah. God will write his law on their hearts.

CadyandZoe, my question to you is does the New Covenant apply to Gentiles? If so, then He also writes the law on the minds and hearts of regenerated Gentiles. If not, then Gentiles cannot be saved because the gospel of our salvation is all wrapped up in the New Covenant.

justbyfaith
Jun 13th 2017, 02:09 AM
Romans 8:7's premise is set by v5:

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Verse 7 is about how those who are carnal will not follow God, SPIRITUALLY. Such a person sins, is thus rebelling against God and cannot please God.

Yes, salvation is through Christ ONLY. Not in following any Law.

I agree.


Even when there WAS ONLY the Law, mankind CANNOT follow it toward righteousness because mankind (the Jews) cannot complete it. To be righteous in accordance of the Law, you have to follow ALL the Law, without failing in ANY of the Law. ALL failed.

The righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4. You should have seen that because it's in the direct context of what we're looking at.




A person following the Law bears NOTHING of the Spirit (v5). ONLY by following the Spirit, does one bear fruit of the Spirit.


There is a Proverb in the book of Proverbs that says that if you turn your ear away from hearing the law, even your prayers shall become an abomination.

And also--if I walk according to the Spirit the law will be fulfilled in me and thus by me.



v9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

All you have been saying is about "justification" based on the Law and not by the Spirit. The Law isn't gonna help you "belong" to Christ. Only the Spirit and when one foregoes the Spirit and decides to follow hand picked statutes of the Law, they are GUILTY of the exact same error that the Galatians were guilty of.

A person can be justified even if they are carnally-minded. Thus justification is not the issue when I reiterate the inverse of Romans 8:7, that Because the spiritual mind is at peace with God; for it is subject to the law of God, and cannot be otherwise., or Romans 8:7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I belong to Christ because of what He did for me regardless of whether I am carnal or spiritual in my thinking. 1 Coriinthians 3:1-3. So my justification has nothing to do with that. (although, if my thinking is carnal, there is a probability that I am devoid of the Spirit).



Paul says... STOP!

The Spirit assures you that you are a son of God... not your actions of following a few Laws. You are saying in all these many threads you started, that BY FOLLOWING THESE FEW LAWS (because I love them in the name of God), I am of Christ.

Paul says... STOP!

No, I said that I obey certain laws because I love the Lord, not because I love the laws. And yes the Spirit assures me that I am a child of God whether my conscience is affllicted over some sin or not. But the less I sin, also the less my conscience will be afflicted. And that is a good thing. Even Paul said that he made it his endeavor to have a conscience that was void of offence towards God and man. Acts 24:16.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 13th 2017, 03:52 AM
Well, I guess those of us that do not follow Leviticus 11 out of "Love of The Lord" do not actually love Him, we (perhaps) are some in training waiting to be enlightened bunch of misfits that can be miraculously brought to the truth.

Why cannot I believe this conversation is still going on...

jesusinmylife
Jun 13th 2017, 05:27 AM
Why cannot I believe this conversation is still going on...

Have you ever read, "If you give a mouse a cookie"?

Slug1
Jun 13th 2017, 05:58 AM
I agree.



The righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4. You should have seen that because it's in the direct context of what we're looking at.




There is a Proverb in the book of Proverbs that says that if you turn your ear away from hearing the law, even your prayers shall become an abomination.

And also--if I walk according to the Spirit the law will be fulfilled in me and thus by me.



A person can be justified even if they are carnally-minded. Thus justification is not the issue when I reiterate the inverse of Romans 8:7, that Because the spiritual mind is at peace with God; for it is subject to the law of God, and cannot be otherwise., or Romans 8:7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I belong to Christ because of what He did for me regardless of whether I am carnal or spiritual in my thinking. 1 Coriinthians 3:1-3. So my justification has nothing to do with that. (although, if my thinking is carnal, there is a probability that I am devoid of the Spirit).

You've given testimony in how you justify yourself in your ability in following a few Laws that you've picked out, and justify this action as "loving God."

Paul says... STOP!




No, I said that I obey certain laws because I love the Lord, not because I love the laws. And yes the Spirit assures me that I am a child of God whether my conscience is affllicted over some sin or not. But the less I sin, also the less my conscience will be afflicted. And that is a good thing. Even Paul said that he made it his endeavor to have a conscience that was void of offence towards God and man. Acts 24:16.The Lord, who loves you... will not place a burden upon you that you can't handle. NO ONE WAS ABLE TO HANDLE the Law... God purposely made the Law's IMPOSSIBLE to fulfill by mankind for the striving to be measurABLE, justified, made righteous, blameless, etc. ONLY Jesus fulfilled the Law and ONLY IN HIM, are we measured, justified, righteous, etc.

To fall back into "some" statues of the Law... is to place oneself SEPARATE from Christ. Paul taught that to the Galatians who fell away from grace/faith of Christ and RESORTED back... BACK to the Law.

They loved God too... and Paul went crazy on them, called them bewitched in their EXPRESSION of this kind of love back to God.

Pbminimum
Jun 13th 2017, 12:24 PM
I belong to Christ because of what He did for me regardless of whether I am carnal or spiritual in my thinking. 1 Coriinthians 3:1-3. So my justification has nothing to do with that. (although, if my thinking is carnal, there is a probability that I am devoid of the Spirit).

If one is devoid of the Spirit they are not justified. This is a contradiction.



No, I said that I obey certain laws because I love the Lord, not because I love the laws. And yes the Spirit assures me that I am a child of God whether my conscience is affllicted over some sin or not. But the less I sin, also the less my conscience will be afflicted. And that is a good thing. Even Paul said that he made it his endeavor to have a conscience that was void of offence towards God and man. Acts 24:16.

His "endeavor" is not his flesh nature though. It is Spirit led. Paul completely understood his flesh nature. Read Romans 7.

Not one work of man will ever earn favor with God. It's only through God and His Spirit leading us that we can even do good works. Does it require obedience ? Of course it does.

CadyandZoe
Jun 13th 2017, 12:49 PM
In context of Romans 8:7 is Romans 8:4, which says that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. If it is fulfiled in me then it is fulfilled by me. If the inside of the cup and dish is clean, the outside will be clean also.

So when it says three verses later that if I am spiritually-minded I am subject in my mind to the law of God, the fact that this will have an effect on my behaviour ought not to be rejected in my thinking.

I appreciate your zeal for God and your desire to obey him. I'm not questioning your loyalty or your commitment. My concern is simple. Let's make sure we have the proper understanding of the passage. Based on my understanding of Romans 8, I could not argue that since the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me, therefore it follows that I am obligated to obey that law. If out of love I want to eat kosher, that's admirable in a way, but I could not, therefore, based on Romans 8 exhort others to follow my lead. Romans 8 isn't making that point.

If I were to argue the point, I might use Romans 14, where Paul talks about those who love God and want to serve him through such practices as dietary restrictions. Romans 8 doesn't make that point, but Romans 14 does. But even here, Paul suggests that those who serve the Lord through dietary restrictions are the brothers weaker in faith. His main point is to say that all those who are serving the Lord are under his command and I should respect that. And I should give my fellow believers the room and the freedom to act according to conscience.

CadyandZoe
Jun 13th 2017, 01:20 PM
CadyandZoe, my question to you is does the New Covenant apply to Gentiles? If so, then He also writes the law on the minds and hearts of regenerated Gentiles. If not, then Gentiles cannot be saved because the gospel of our salvation is all wrapped up in the New Covenant.

This may get me into trouble but my understanding is this. God is going to make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. According to both Jesus and Paul, the New Covenant is salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ. This is the inheritance of the houses of Israel and Judah; but also, believing Gentiles have been grafted into that promised inheritance. Jeremiah also says that God will write his law on the hearts of those with whom he makes this covenant.

What does it mean when it talks about the law being written on the heart?

Not only did God expect Israel to obey his ordinances and statues, he expected Israel to learn about what God values, what he loves, his sense of morality, and his character, e.g. goodness, righteousness, and love. And by living under these laws, the sons and daughters of Jacob were to learn about God through practices and teachings from parents and priests. And through a love for the goodness and righteousness expressed in the Law, one would learn to love both the law and the law-giver.

In order to better understand this concept, I borrow an illustration from a friend of mine who teaches the Bible.

When his children were young, he forbade them from swinging a baseball bat in the house, since the child might break a window or destroy something else valuable. Through this rule, his children learned to respect and value personal property and the value of maintaining order. He also instructed his children how to cross the street and to avoid crossing the street when cars were coming. Through this rule, his children learned to respect and value human life. The rules are given not only so that the child might be kept safe and secure, but so that the child might learn what the parent values.

Now suppose a fire starts in the house and the child can't reach the door. Does the child obey his father and not swing the bat in the house? Hopefully, the child has learned that his father would expect his child to swing the baseball bat into the window, breaking the window to escape. Why? Because the child would have learned to give weight to some values over the others. While it is true that the father values personal property, he values human life more. He would want his child to disobey the rule about swinging the bat to save himself or herself.

The laws of God are like that. The Law of Moses is designed around God's moral character. And while all human beings are obligated to live according to that moral character, not all human beings are obligated to give expression to that moral character through the rites and rituals found in Moses. All human beings should live according to God's worldview and perspective and to act with goodness and righteousness as God defines it. And when we do, we have the law written on our hearts. We value the goodness and righteousness found there and we seek to apply those values in our everyday life. But Paul has taught us that Gentiles are not obligated to give expression of that goodness and righteousness through ritual. I don't need to eat kosher in order to understand and respect the need to be holy and distinctive in my values and beliefs.

keck553
Jun 13th 2017, 03:24 PM
In other words, it's time to come off the milk diet.

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2017, 03:55 PM
Actually it is...see Deuteronomy 14:22-25.

Check out vs 26. This is the feast tithe. The money was simply for conversion to transport it then to buy back the things needed for the tithe of the feast. It wasn't OK to give money. Vs 27 also says the Levite is to be a part of the feast tithe and not to be forgotten.

Money was not tithed, ever.


Hi Mark,

The only reason I say that the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers is because the scripture says so. Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16.

The law of God is. Not the law of Moses. And you didn't answer the question. The word says "we are dead to the law to be married to Christ". We cannot keep an old girlfriend in our heart and be married to a new wife. God doesn't want it that way either. One should not try to keep the ministry of death in ones heart when Jesus wants the entire heart with His law of Love written there.

For instance, the jot and tittle require stoning for adultery. Is that jot and tittle gone, or is it written into your heart too?

keck553
Jun 13th 2017, 04:02 PM
He who dwells in me knows the Law better than I. If I ask Him for counsel and know His Voice over others before I act on my own, and if I obey Him who dwells in me then I know His Law is being fulfilled. But I can't hear His Voice when I am listening to my own voice and to others.

Jesus flat out said His people know His voice. If I can not trust that simple understanding then I have no hope to do anything right in His eyes.

keck553
Jun 13th 2017, 04:11 PM
JbF, do you keep this Law?

Do not intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3)

justbyfaith
Jun 13th 2017, 08:25 PM
Conclusion: No one will be called great in the kingdom. Matthew 5:19.

Because it is true that no one keeps the law perfectly. Galatians 6:13.

But I would also point out that if a person bears the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn their behaviour. Galatians 5:22-23. I have said before about this that this means that if I bear the fruit of the Spirit, I will not be violating any law. And therefore if I violate a law, it is because I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit in those moments.

On a different note,

Didn't God give the law of Moses to Moses? Is the law of Moses from Moses or is it from God? Did Moses come up with the ten commandments and everything else and then say it was from God? Going as far as engraving them on stone? Or wil you accept the truth that the law of Moses came from God first, through Moses to us? Thus the law of Moses is the law of God.

Also, Matthew 5:19 says plainly,

Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be caled the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since there is reward for obeying and teaching them according to Jesus, I conclude that Jesus wants us to obey and teach them.

It seems pretty simple to me.

Can I answer all of your questions that attempt to argue that this scripture is not valid? Probably not. I am only human, so maybe you should ask God all those same questions and see what He says.

CadyandZoe
Jun 13th 2017, 08:29 PM
Conclusion: No one will be called great in the kingdom. Matthew 5:19.

Because it is true that no one keeps the law perfectly. Galatians 6:13.

But I would also point out that if a person bears the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn their behaviour. Galatians 5:22-23. I have said before about this that this means that if I bear the fruit of the Spirit, I will not be violating any law. And therefore if I violate a law, it is because I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit in those moments.

Didn't God give the law of Moses to Moses? Is the law of Moses from Moses or is it from God? Did Moses come up with the ten commandments and everything else and then say it was from God? Going as far as engraving them on stone? Or wil you accept the truth that the law of Moses came from God first, through Moses to us? Thus the law of Moses is the law of God.

Also, Matthew 5:19 says plainly,

Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be caled the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since there is reward for obeying and teaching them according to Jesus, I conclude that Jesus wants us to obey and teach them.

It seems pretty simple to me.

Can I answer all of your questions that attempt to argue that this scripture is not valid? Probably not. I am only human, so maybe you should ask God all those same questions and see what He says.

As I said and say again, where you and I disagree is strictly on your interpretation of the various passages you use to support your theology. But I don't disagree with your desire to obey God and love the Lord.

keck553
Jun 13th 2017, 09:21 PM
Didn't God give the law of Moses to Moses? Is the law of Moses from Moses or is it from God? Did Moses come up with the ten commandments and everything else and then say it was from God? Going as far as engraving them on stone? Or wil you accept the truth that the law of Moses came from God first, through Moses to us? Thus the law of Moses is the law of God.

You need to understand the correct context so you will realize your question is out of context. The Israelites shrank in fear before God's presence and sent Moses to receive the Law. But what you need to realize is that the Israelites AGREED to receive the Law AS A CORPORATE and AGREED to obey the Law individually within that corporation (nation). The context is very clear: The Law was given TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL. It had NO application to Gentiles unless they joined Israel AND AGREED to the terms of that covenant. THAT covenant. Not the Brit Chadashah Jesus instituted that we AGREE to come under when we repent and make Jesus our Lord and Savior.

We have NOTHING to do with the terms of that covenant given at Sinai.


Also, Matthew 5:19 says plainly,

Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be caled the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since there is reward for obeying and teaching them according to Jesus, I conclude that Jesus wants us to obey and teach them.

It seems pretty simple to me.

That was in full effect to the people Jesus spoke to since THEY WERE UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. Can't you understand that?


Can I answer all of your questions that attempt to argue that this scripture is not valid? Probably not. I am only human, so maybe you should ask God all those same questions and see what He says.

No, we do not invalidate or argue the Scriptures, we simply attest that your doctrine is in error and we continually and in great detail point out where/how/why your doctrine is in error.

Pbminimum
Jun 13th 2017, 10:00 PM
But I would also point out that if a person bears the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn their behaviour. Galatians 5:22-23. I have said before about this that this means that if I bear the fruit of the Spirit, I will not be violating any law. And therefore if I violate a law, it is because I am not bearing the fruit of the Spirit in those moments.


The fruit of the Spirit is not what makes one exempt of the law. NOT ONE SINGLE WORK WILL JUSTIFY MAN. The work of Christ alone received by faith alone is what saves, and justifies. Obedience is a result of the Spirit producing the work, hence the term "fruit of the Spirit". The person doesn't so much bear the fruit of the Spirit , as the Spirit uses the person.

justbyfaith
Jun 13th 2017, 11:11 PM
The fruit of the Spirit is not what makes one exempt of the law. NOT ONE SINGLE WORK WILL JUSTIFY MAN. The work of Christ alone received by faith alone is what saves, and justifies. Obedience is a result of the Spirit producing the work, hence the term "fruit of the Spirit". The person doesn't so much bear the fruit of the Spirit , as the Spirit uses the person.

Yes. A man is justified through faith in the blood of Christ. As a result the Spriit comes to dwell within him, and he bears His fruit. In bearing the fruit of the Spirit there is no law against his behaviour. But he is not justified by the fact that there is no law against his behaviour but he is justified by his faith in the blood of Christ. The result is that he is justified before man in his behaviour in that he bears the fruit of the Spirit because of his faith in Christ.

It's really too bad that I am being ostracized as a false teacher here because I am teaching the truth here (and in all my posts). I probably should go somewhere else because the Bible says not to sow among thorns. I did go somewhere else once before and then came back, I won't be as inclined to leave again; but it really is a shame because fewer people will lay hold of the truths that I present because of these attacks on my ministry here. But I am still blessed. Matthew 5:10-12.

keck553
Jun 13th 2017, 11:20 PM
Yes. A man is justified through faith in the blood of Christ. As a result the Spriit comes to dwell within him, and he bears His fruit. In bearing the fruit of the Spirit there is no law against his behaviour. But he is not justified by the fact that there is no law against his behaviour but he is justified by his faith in the blood of Christ. The result is that he is justified before man in his behaviour in that he bears the fruit of the Spirit because of his faith in Christ.

It's really too bad that I am being ostracized as a false teacher here because I am teaching the truth here (and in all my posts). I probably should go somewhere else because the Bible says not to sow among thorns. I did go somewhere else once before and then came back, I won't be as inclined to leave again; but it really is a shame because fewer people will lay hold of the truths that I present because of these attacks on my ministry here. But I am still blessed. Matthew 5:10-12.

You don't own the truth JbF. God owns it. And opposing virtually all established Christian doctrine doesn't make us "thorns."

In another place, you claim God revealed a truth to you that hundreds of millions of Christians have missed. Do you really wonder why Christians "test the spirits" when you post this stuff? It is our Biblical DUTY to test your doctrine.

Slug1
Jun 13th 2017, 11:35 PM
It's really too bad that I am being ostracized as a false teacher here because I am teaching the truth here (and in all my posts).Did you report this accusation so the MODS could verify?

What is happening is you are posting your understanding and others are opposing your understanding and you seem to be bent on defending your understanding.

Many have shown you what error's are in your understanding. This is showing you your error, not saying you are a false teacher.

Ya want to mature... do as the Galatians did after Paul showed them their error in falling away from God through Christ, as led by the Holy Spirit, WHEN they thought following "some" Law's, justified them before God. Paul told them to STOP... and return to God, through ONLY Christ as led by ONLY the Holy Spirit.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 14th 2017, 12:32 AM
I am curious to know what justbyfaith's "ministry" is?

justbyfaith
Jun 14th 2017, 01:15 AM
Did you report this accusation so the MODS could verify?

What is happening is you are posting your understanding and others are opposing your understanding and you seem to be bent on defending your understanding.

Many have shown you what error's are in your understanding. This is showing you your error, not saying you are a false teacher.

Ya want to mature... do as the Galatians did after Paul showed them their error in falling away from God through Christ, as led by the Holy Spirit, WHEN they thought following "some" Law's, justified them before God. Paul told them to STOP... and return to God, through ONLY Christ as led by ONLY the Holy Spirit.

I didn't report the first instance as that is not my style...I don't like being a "tattletale". But they really have called me a false teache to my face, saying that I have "poisonous doctrine". It is NOT poisonous. If you understand both sides of the coin, it is truth that will set you free.

justbyfaith
Jun 14th 2017, 01:18 AM
I am curious to know what justbyfaith's "ministry" is?

It might be against the rules to spam.

Slug1
Jun 14th 2017, 01:43 AM
I didn't report the first instance as that is not my style...I don't like being a "tattletale". But they really have called me a false teache to my face, saying that I have "poisonous doctrine". It is NOT poisonous. If you understand both sides of the coin, it is truth that will set you free.Well, Paul asked the Galatians if they were bewitched, or "foolish" (other translations) when they were saying the same thing that you are saying concerning falling back into following statutes of the Law for the same reason's you are saying people should fall back into the Law. Why, when you look at all of the accusations against the people in Galatia teaching about the Law and drawing people along with them into a changing of the Gospel, he even called them "accursed". Your understanding brings people BACK into CAPTIVITY of the Law... and Paul said, STOP!

Based on your understanding in choosing "some" statutes of the Law to follow, this only means you are a double-minded in even that aspect of captivity to part's of the Law you have chosen. You either follow ALL the Law and BREAK none of those statues (impossible to do) for the purpose of measuring one's justification. Or follow none of it, because Christ justifies (grace/faith). The Galatians began fall out of the race by picking and choose what statues they wanted to follow... Paul said, STOP!

5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

What follows is about leaven... do I need to bring that up now too? So, instead of choosing some Law's to follow, "out of LOVE for God (as you say), do as Paul teaches and use that love to serve others instead. Remember how I keep saying: God, through Christ, as led by the Holy Spirit? Ya want to know why I keep saying this?

5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 14th 2017, 01:55 AM
It might be against the rules to spam.

It might be against the rules to call those you converse with unbelievers (thorns) because they do not agree with your doctrine.

IE: TRUE ministers (you?) of the Word called false by the FALSE. :rolleyes: (those at Bible Forums that disagree with you?)

keck553
Jun 14th 2017, 05:09 AM
I didn't report the first instance as that is not my style...I don't like being a "tattletale". But they really have called me a false teache to my face, saying that I have "poisonous doctrine". It is NOT poisonous. If you understand both sides of the coin, it is truth that will set you free.

"Two sides of the coin" is an idiom for "double mindedness."

You can not serve two masters.

keck553
Jun 14th 2017, 05:11 AM
It might be against the rules to call those you converse with unbelievers (thorns) because they do not agree with your doctrine.

IE: TRUE ministers (you?) of the Word called false by the FALSE. :rolleyes: (those at Bible Forums that disagree with you?)

Good point. The title itself is an accusation.

Slug1
Jun 14th 2017, 08:53 AM
"Two sides of the coin" is an idiom for "double mindedness."

You can not serve two masters.Kech... putting this post in my notes.

So true, with God, there is only one side of a coin.

Pbminimum
Jun 14th 2017, 12:22 PM
Yes. A man is justified through faith in the blood of Christ. As a result the Spriit comes to dwell within him, and he bears His fruit. In bearing the fruit of the Spirit there is no law against his behaviour. But he is not justified by the fact that there is no law against his behaviour but he is justified by his faith in the blood of Christ. The result is that he is justified before man in his behaviour in that he bears the fruit of the Spirit because of his faith in Christ.

It's really too bad that I am being ostracized as a false teacher here because I am teaching the truth here (and in all my posts). I probably should go somewhere else because the Bible says not to sow among thorns. I did go somewhere else once before and then came back, I won't be as inclined to leave again; but it really is a shame because fewer people will lay hold of the truths that I present because of these attacks on my ministry here. But I am still blessed. Matthew 5:10-12.

I don't consider you to be teaching. So false teacher would be a stretch in my opinion. I've only seen some disagreements on the law. You shouldn't take it so personally. For instance. I'm not taking it personally that you said you are sowing absolute truth among thorns.

One thing I have noticed for the last two decades of following Christ... There is no more stubborn creature on the planet than a believer who is wrong , but thinks they are right.

Pbminimum
Jun 14th 2017, 12:24 PM
Just type a brief explanation instead of a link. I would be interested to hear.

justbyfaith
Jun 14th 2017, 11:47 PM
JbF, I'm on my phone so this will be short. Alone with God this morning, reflecting, some prayer, some worship as I smoke food for a dinner our church is doing for the community. Anyway, something came up while reading. Galatians 3:24.

I can say much concerning these innuendo style threads you've started, but I'm not led that way. How I am led is to inform you that God is trying to correct you through these efforts of rebellion on your part, by guiding many who have responded with His correction.

So, I gave to you all I am led to give along with that verse.

Again I ask you to share more of what you feel the Lord showed you, as Galatians 3;24 is one of the primary reasons why I do what I do. In what way is it that you think Galatians 3:24 says that we ought not to preach the law? I believe it says the opposite, that we ought to preach the law. It says that the law is a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ. You seem to think that there is no place for preaching the law in any preaching that is valid. This is simply not true. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul...Psalm 19:7.

keck553
Jun 15th 2017, 12:04 AM
Again I ask you to share more of what you feel the Lord showed you, as Galatians 3;24 is one of the primary reasons why I do what I do. In what way is it that you think Galatians 3:24 says that we ought not to preach the law? I believe it says the opposite, that we ought to preach the law. It says that the law is a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ. You seem to think that there is no place for preaching the law in any preaching that is valid. This is simply not true. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul...Psalm 19:7.

You are quoting Galatians 3:24 out of context.

justbyfaith
Jun 15th 2017, 12:26 AM
You are quoting Galatians 3:24 out of context.

No, you simply don't understand that verse.

shepherdsword
Jun 15th 2017, 12:41 AM
Thread closed,duplicate of one already closed.

Slug1
Jun 15th 2017, 01:08 AM
Again I ask you to share more of what you feel the Lord showed you, as Galatians 3;24 is one of the primary reasons why I do what I do. In what way is it that you think Galatians 3:24 says that we ought not to preach the law? I believe it says the opposite, that we ought to preach the law. It says that the law is a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ. You seem to think that there is no place for preaching the law in any preaching that is valid. This is simply not true. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul...Psalm 19:7.In context... the Law was as a guardian to God's children, but a day would come when the "tutor", (The Law) would tutor NO MORE. By faith, or after faith was possible with God, through Christ, as led by the Holy Spirit, mankind is not in need to be led by a tutor, but instead by FREED of the tutor and enter INTO Christ, by grace and faith.

You are teaching that mankind must still be a slave too and tutored by, the Law to be converted to Christ. NO... that is false teaching.

Edit: Didn't see that the thread was closed...

Wait... this popped up, AGAIN:

Galatians 5: For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29150a)] by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?