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CadyandZoe
Jun 12th 2017, 01:29 PM
Does Jesus teach that Christians need to both teach and obey the law to be great in the kingdom of heaven? If we remain fixed on the verse in bold we might get the wrong impression, but once we consider the surrounding text we might understand what Jesus means to say.

Matthew 5:
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I included verses 14 through 16 because in these verses Jesus establishes half of his main point: there is a difference between our ostensible beliefs and our actual beliefs, which becomes evident in our behavior. If we claim to be a child of God, then what we do should match what we say. Anyone claiming to bring the light, such as Jesus for example, gives credibility to that claim if his light shines before me through his deeds.

I included verse 20, because it establishes the context for why he raised the subject in the first place. As we know from other scriptures, and from our own experience, self-righteous Pharisees of all kinds talk a good game but fall short with respect to action.

but whoever keeps and teaches them:
This is the man issue. The subject of this passage are teachers of the law, such as the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus is focused on them in particular, but this also applies to all those who claim to teach the word of God. Any educated person can teach the word of God; but whoever both teaches the word of God and lives according to that word will be great in the kingdom of heaven. Apparently, the scribes and Pharisees were teaching the word of God, but not living according to the word of God. In our idiom, they did not walk the talk.

Does this scripture imply or suggest that Christians need to teach and obey the law? I don't think so. While the focus is on Jewish leaders and teachers, the main issue is the contrast between our ostensible beliefs and what we actually believe and that the difference is found in our action. How to live as a person of faith while under the covenant at Mt. Sinai is unique to the Jewish experience and as Jesus is speaking into that context, his focus remains there.

But Gentile believers find themselves in other situations and circumstances that challenge them, and test their faith. Gentiles are not obligated to perform the rites and rituals of the law of Moses, but Gentiles are obligated to live according to God's moral standard, which we find described in the Torah. We find ourselves in different situations and circumstances than our Jewish brothers and sisters in the first century, but our challenges are similar in that our ostensible beliefs are tested through action. Those who live by the Spirit will walk . . .

You know the rest. :)

Iconoclast85
Jun 12th 2017, 02:53 PM
Christians are law keepers.

Christians are not lawless.


Anyone suggesting Christians are not under any law is entangled in antinomian error.

THE 10 commandments are still in full force,under Christ, not under Moses...rom3:31

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 03:09 PM
Christians are law keepers.

Christians are not lawless.


Anyone suggesting Christians are not under any law is entangled in antinomian error.

THE 10 commandments are still in full force,under Christ, not under Moses...rom3:31

Does that include keeping the Sabbath on Saturday?

mjmselim
Jun 12th 2017, 03:12 PM
Looking forward to this Thread's development in the interactions. I did not quote any points of the items and issues you raised, because the issues and the doctrines are so important and comprehensive that most of the Bible is implicated or connected to the discussion. I do not believe the legal requirements that the Lord speaks of on one side, and God's greater purposes on the other hand, can easily or quickly be reconciled. As you suggest the Jewish position is in contrast to that of Gentiles. As others will no doubt bring in the doctrine of the church as substitutionary to Israel or the Hebrew or Jewish prerogatives of the Torah and Tanach (Old Testament), We'll see; good thread.

Daniel567
Jun 12th 2017, 03:19 PM
The real issue is to be found in this verse:
“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then we must add this verse to really understand what the Lord was revealing:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So the bottom line is that unless our righteousness is equal to that of Christ, and our perfection is equal to that of God the Father, all the law-keeping in the world will mean nothing.

Which brings us to the Gospel, and the fact that sinners are justified by God's grace through faith, and thereby receive the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 03:28 PM
So the bottom line is that unless our righteousness is equal to that of Christ, Not what Jesus said

Daniel567
Jun 12th 2017, 03:45 PM
Not what Jesus said
Why not? Since Jesus is God, and He said that we must be as perfect as God the Father, the Bible makes it crystal clear that unless our righteousness is equal to that of Christ's, we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And the only way that that is possible is if God gives us the righteousness of Christ as a gift.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness... And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Rom 4:3,22-25).

kyCyd
Jun 12th 2017, 03:48 PM
Christians are law keepers.

Christians are not lawless.


Anyone suggesting Christians are not under any law is entangled in antinomian error.

THE 10 commandments are still in full force,under Christ, not under Moses...rom3:31

I agree, Jesus mentions all the commandments within his teachings.

kyCyd
Jun 12th 2017, 03:52 PM
Does that include keeping the Sabbath on Saturday?


I would say if you have done well on Saturdays then you have kept it, but this is what Jesus said:

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 04:06 PM
Looking forward to this Thread's development in the interactions. I did not quote any points of the items and issues you raised, because the issues and the doctrines are so important and comprehensive that most of the Bible is implicated or connected to the discussion. I do not believe the legal requirements that the Lord speaks of on one side, and God's greater purposes on the other hand, can easily or quickly be reconciled. As you suggest the Jewish position is in contrast to that of Gentiles. As others will no doubt bring in the doctrine of the church as substitutionary to Israel or the Hebrew or Jewish prerogatives of the Torah and Tanach (Old Testament), We'll see; good thread.

I submit proper Messianic Jewish position is not in contrast with that of Gentiles. Most of the Characters in our New Testament are Jews and they are not in contrast doctrinally with Gentiles. In Christ, there is no distinction. While many Orthodox Jews who come to Yeshua continue on with their traditions (as Christians do with Christmas, easter, etc.), properly discipled Jews realize they are no longer bound to the Law of Moses in application of their walk as properly discipled Christians know that skipping Christmas is not going to condemn them.

Iconoclast85
Jun 12th 2017, 04:06 PM
Does that include keeping the Sabbath on Saturday?

In Christ.....Christians keep the one day in 7 rest on the Lord's day...heb 4:8

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 04:07 PM
Not what Jesus said

Jesus said that to unregenerated Jews under the Law of Moses. It has no application to born again Christians.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 04:09 PM
I would say if you have done well on Saturdays then you have kept it, but this is what Jesus said:

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

So that nullifies the Sabbath commandment?

I submit that Jesus gave the "halakah" of the Ten to unregenerated Jews under the Law of Moses. Born again Christians have these written on their hearts, why do we need self effort to keep them? Are we still wearing the old man suit?

Iconoclast85
Jun 12th 2017, 04:12 PM
I would say if you have done well on Saturdays then you have kept it, but this is what Jesus said:

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Jesus was the perfect law keeper. He was.the law giver, and kept the law of Moses that was in.effect during His earthly life. As I indicated.....we are now under law to Christ.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 04:13 PM
In Christ.....Christians keep the one day in 7 rest on the Lord's day...heb 4:8

That's not the correct context of this passage. The correct context is EVERY day is a "Sabbath rest" from our own works of "Law-Keeping."


Jesus was the perfect law keeper. He was.the law giver, and kept the law of Moses that was in.effect during His earthly life. As I indicated.....we are now under law to Christ.

Jesus kept much more than "The Law of Moses."

kyCyd
Jun 12th 2017, 04:31 PM
So that nullifies the Sabbath commandment?

I submit that Jesus gave the "halakah" of the Ten to unregenerated Jews under the Law of Moses. Born again Christians have these written on their hearts, why do we need self effort to keep them? Are we still wearing the old man suit?

To me Jesus made you think of the law differently for sure, but those are his words not mine, what we do with the words is how we walk in the Lord.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 05:13 PM
Why not? Since Jesus is God, and He said that we must be as perfect as God the Father, because Jesus said exceed, not saying how much, and the word used for perfect means mature. Not to mention imputed righteousness of one man to another isn't a biblical concept, so we know Jesus wasn't taking about it. On top of that, if it were biblical it still wouldn't matter because a state of righteousness has nothing to do with being perfect. You just can't run around throwing verses together as you please.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 05:17 PM
To me Jesus made you think of the law differently for sure, but those are his words not mine, what we do with the words is how we walk in the Lord.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 05:18 PM
Jesus said that to unregenerated Jews under the Law of Moses. It has no application to born again Christians.The spirit of the law Jesus was teaching most certainly is applicable to Christians.

CadyandZoe
Jun 12th 2017, 05:59 PM
Christians are law keepers.

Christians are not lawless.


Anyone suggesting Christians are not under any law is entangled in antinomian error.

THE 10 commandments are still in full force,under Christ, not under Moses...rom3:31

We don't keep or obey the 10 Commandments because they are codified as laws. We keep and obey the 10 Commandments because they describe intrinsic moral values. Murder, for instance, was wrong even before God ever said, "thou shalt not murder."

Slug1
Jun 12th 2017, 06:00 PM
In Christ.....Christians keep the one day in 7 rest on the Lord's day...heb 4:8I wonder why some Christians "enforce" this day of rest to be on either a Saturday or a Sunday?

Athanasius
Jun 12th 2017, 06:02 PM
In Christ.....Christians keep the one day in 7 rest on the Lord's day...heb 4:8

Except for pastors, right?

ChangedByHim
Jun 12th 2017, 06:14 PM
In Christ.....Christians keep the one day in 7 rest on the Lord's day...heb 4:8

That's NOT the fourth commandment. Sorry.

Daniel567
Jun 12th 2017, 06:19 PM
because Jesus said exceed, not saying how much, and the word used for perfect means mature.
Since the perfection mentioned by Jesus was the perfection of God the Father, it had nothing to do with maturity but everything to do with God's ABSOLUTE moral perfection. And that is the standard required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and Heaven itself.


Not to mention imputed righteousness of one man to another isn't a biblical concept, so we know Jesus wasn't taking about it.

I'm sorry to see that you have absolutely no idea about imputed righteousness, which is presented as the robe of righteousness which must be upon every person who has been justified by God's grace. There is no salvation without imputed righteousness, since all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.


On top of that, if it were biblical it still wouldn't matter because a state of righteousness has nothing to do with being perfect.
Take another look at what you have just stated. If righteousness has nothing to do with being perfect, then there was no need for God to justify sinners by His grace. Once again read and digest what Christ said about being as perfect as God the Father. His absolute righteousness is also His perfection


You just can't run around throwing verses together as you please.
No, actually you have been presented with the true Gospel of grace, which brings all Gospel truth together. It is NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, since we are justified by God's grace.

TITUS 3:4-7
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Daniel567
Jun 12th 2017, 06:23 PM
I wonder why some Christians "enforce" this day of rest to be on either a Saturday or a Sunday?
Because the Jewish sabbath was on the last day of the week, and the Christian sabbath is on the first day of the week (which happens to be the Lord's Day).

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 07:23 PM
The spirit of the law Jesus was teaching most certainly is applicable to Christians.agreed, but a carnal mind can't keep it


We don't keep or obey the 10 Commandments because they are codified as laws. We keep and obey the 10 Commandments because they describe intrinsic moral values. Murder, for instance, was wrong even before God ever said, "thou shalt not murder."
Exactly. .

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 07:26 PM
Because the Jewish sabbath was on the last day of the week, and the Christian sabbath is on the first day of the week (which happens to be the Lord's Day).nowhere in the Bible is Sunday called Sabbath

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 07:28 PM
agreed, but a carnal mind can't keep it
No a mind set on the flesh can't but a mind set on loving God and neighbor can.

justbyfaith
Jun 12th 2017, 07:29 PM
because Jesus said exceed, not saying how much, and the word used for perfect means mature. Not to mention imputed righteousness of one man to another isn't a biblical concept, so we know Jesus wasn't taking about it. On top of that, if it were biblical it still wouldn't matter because a state of righteousness has nothing to do with being perfect. You just can't run around throwing verses together as you please.

Be mature as your Father in heaven is mature?

The word mature implies there was a time when the person in question was immature; maturity by definition is something that you grow in to.

keck553
Jun 12th 2017, 07:32 PM
No a mind set on the flesh can't but a mind set on loving God and neighbor can.Can a carnal mind be set to obey the Spirit? If so why bother with all that new creation stuff?

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 07:48 PM
Since the perfection mentioned by Jesus was the perfection of God the Father, it had nothing to do with maturity but everything to do with God's ABSOLUTE moral perfection. your righteousness can never match God's. Jesus didn't say his righteousness he said yours. He's talking about behavior in Matt 5.




I'm sorry to see that you have absolutely no idea about imputed righteousness, which is presented as the robe of righteousness the gift of righteousness is just that a gift of right standing which is by faith. We are not given someone else's righteous record. Not biblical.



There is no salvation without imputed righteousnessWhere is the righteous record of one imputed to another in scripture? Where?



since all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.look up the passage. It's not about what you think it is.



Take another look at what you have just stated. If righteousness has nothing to do with being perfect, then there was no need for God to justify sinners by His grace.You are confusing our righteousness and behavior with our faith being counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



No, actually you have been presented with the true Gospel of grace, which brings all Gospel truth together. It is NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, since we are justified by God's grace.
didn't say otherwise but we're in Matt 5 not Romans 5. Jesus isn't talking about Rom 5 in Matt 5. You are, but he's not.

Slug1
Jun 12th 2017, 07:51 PM
Because the Jewish sabbath was on the last day of the week, and the Christian sabbath is on the first day of the week (which happens to be the Lord's Day).Sabbath is a day of rest for those who believe in God... what of the pastors who labor the most on a "Sunday?"

What day is their Sabbath?

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 07:53 PM
Be mature as your Father in heaven is mature?

The word mature implies there was a time when the person in question was immature; maturity by definition is something that you grow in to.No the word doesn't imply that. It's just about behavior matching knowledge.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 08:00 PM
Can a carnal mind be set to obey the Spirit? If so why bother with all that new creation stuff?many were called righteous by God before the new creature bro. Still sinned but we're not taking about that, just exceedingly the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.

percho
Jun 12th 2017, 08:14 PM
Not what Jesus said


The real issue is to be found in this verse:
“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then we must add this verse to really understand what the Lord was revealing:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So the bottom line is that unless our righteousness is equal to that of Christ, and our perfection is equal to that of God the Father, all the law-keeping in the world will mean nothing.

Which brings us to the Gospel, and the fact that sinners are justified by God's grace through faith, and thereby receive the imputed righteousness of Christ.

for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, Rom 8:3 YLT


For it was becoming to Him, because of whom are the all things, and through whom are the all things, many sons to glory bringing, the author of their salvation through sufferings to make perfect, Heb 2:10 YLT
who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, Heb 5:7-9 YLT
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. Rom 5:19 YLT

That is the, obedience of faith, through which the perfection of the righteousness of God, comes. The through sufferings, learned obedience of one. Jesus, born in the flesh, of the virgin Mary became the faith of God through, the obedience.

John 3:7 KJV Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

With the righteousness of God in Christ.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Romans 3:19-22

It is manifested by the resurrection of Jesus. Apart from the law Christ received the promised hope of God, the hope of eternal life. See Gal 3:16,19,21. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The grace of God by which we can receive salvation is the resurrection of Jesus. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Life comes through the promise of life, through the resurrection, not by the law. That is the grace of God.

God through Christ and because of Christ, will make us perfect.

What does the new covenant say?

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Heb 8:10-12

Does anyone see even one little thing there which man does? Anything? Can you give yourself birth?

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

percho
Jun 12th 2017, 08:29 PM
Not what Jesus said


Except for pastors, right?

On what day would one think, "Pastor Arron," gathered two days worth of manna?

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 08:55 PM
for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son

Why quote me talking about Matthew 5 and discuss something else? And the righteousness of God in Christ isn't about the righteousness of one imputed to another.

Daniel567
Jun 12th 2017, 09:06 PM
nowhere in the Bible is Sunday called Sabbath
Neither is it called "Sunday". So what?

The underlying principles of the sabbath -- which were rest, worship, and doing good -- were transferred to the Lord's Day by the Lord of the Sabbath. It is pertinent that Christ called Himself "the Lord of the sabbath", since the Lord of the sabbath has every right to transfer the principles of the last day of the week to the first day of the week. It is significant that the apostle John begins the book of Revelation by saying "I was in the Spirit on THE LORD'S DAY".

After the resurrection of Christ, the first day of the week (also called "the morrow after the sabbath") replaced the last day of the week, and for New Testament Christians, that was the day for gathering together to worship, to break bread (the Lord's Supper), and to hear the Word of God. This is quite evident in the New Testament, and is corroborated by Justin Martyr in his Apology (Justin being one who lived very close to the apostolic period). Ever since the Reformation, Christians began to call the Lord's Day "the Christian sabbath", and rightly so.

Why did the first day of the week assume such great importance? Because it was the day of Christ's resurrection, and Christianity is based upon a living Savior. It is also the eighth day, and that stands for a New Creation. God created the heavens and the earth on the first day of Creation Week, and Christ created the Church on the first day of the week -- the Day of Pentecost -- after His resurrection. Pentecost was called "the morrow after the sabbath", but it was also the day on which the Holy Spirit came down to this earth in great power and established the Church.

Daniel567
Jun 12th 2017, 09:11 PM
Why quote me talking about Matthew 5 and discuss something else? And the righteousness of God in Christ isn't about the righteousness of one imputed to another.
1. Christians may not take Matthew 5 in isolation (which you are attempting to do). Unless we bring the whole NT to bear on Matthew 5 and 6, we will wander off into false doctrine.

2. Christians need to clearly understand the meaning of imputed righteousness (which you still do not understand). The absolute righteousness of Christ (who is the God-Man) is imputed (or placed upon) each and every believer. That is the only way that a sinner can be JUSTIFIED -- declared righteous -- in God's sight.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 09:13 PM
The underlying principles of the sabbath -- which were rest, worship, and doing good --
and doing good?

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 09:23 PM
1. Christians may not take Matthew 5 in isolation (which you are attempting to do). Unless we bring the whole NT to bear on Matthew 5 and 6, we will wander off into false doctrine.Christians should not destroy the purpose in one book with others. And no, there's no contradiction.



2. Christians need to clearly understand the meaning of imputed righteousness (which you still do not understand). The absolute righteousness of Christ (who is the God-Man) is imputed (or placed upon) each and every believer. That is the only way that a sinner can be JUSTIFIED -- declared righteous -- in God's sight.
You keep talking but this is bible chat, where we require scripture. I on the other hand have......

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Iconoclast85
Jun 12th 2017, 09:31 PM
We don't keep or obey the 10 Commandments because they are codified as laws. We keep and obey the 10 Commandments because they describe intrinsic moral values. Murder, for instance, was wrong even before God ever said, "thou shalt not murder."

The ten Commandments have been in place since creation

CadyandZoe
Jun 12th 2017, 09:36 PM
The real issue is to be found in this verse:
“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then we must add this verse to really understand what the Lord was revealing:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So the bottom line is that unless our righteousness is equal to that of Christ, and our perfection is equal to that of God the Father, all the law-keeping in the world will mean nothing.

Which brings us to the Gospel, and the fact that sinners are justified by God's grace through faith, and thereby receive the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Our idea of "perfect:flawless" came out of the Middle Ages, and wasn't in view during the time of Jesus. What Jesus meant to say was, "Be ye complete as your Father in heaven is complete", speaking about love. What does an "incomplete love" look like? Jesus says it; an incomplete love is when we love our family and friends. But, as Jesus says, any pagan can do that. God's love is complete in that he sends the rain on both the evil and the good. This is why Jesus says that if our love is complete, we will not only love our family and friends; we will love our enemies also. If we love both our friends and our enemies, then our love is complete just as the Father's love is complete.

With regard to exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees, one must not only act the part of a righteous person, as if performing a script, one must be a righteous person from the heart and goodness, love and faith must be genuine. Jesus was critical of the Pharisees because they were intentionally acting the part of a good person without actually being a good person. He was critical of public prayer, because it lacked authenticity and was double minded. What looked real was merely pretend. He was critical of public giving for the same reasons. If one wanted to be more righteous than the Pharisees, one needed to be authentic and pure of heart.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2017, 09:52 PM
Our idea of "perfect:flawless" came out of the Middle Ages, and wasn't in view during the time of Jesus. What Jesus meant to say was, "Be ye complete as your Father in heaven is complete", speaking about love. What does an "incomplete love" look like? Jesus says it; an incomplete love is when we love our family and friends. But, as Jesus says, any pagan can do that. God's love is complete in that he sends the rain on both the evil and the good. This is why Jesus says that if our love is complete, we will not only love our family and friends; we will love our enemies also. If we love both our friends and our enemies, then our love is complete just as the Father's love is complete.

With regard to exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees, one must not only act the part of a righteous person, as if performing a script, one must be a righteous person from the heart and goodness, love and faith must be genuine. Jesus was critical of the Pharisees because they were intentionally acting the part of a good person without actually being a good person. He was critical of public prayer, because it lacked authenticity and was double minded. What looked real was merely pretend. He was critical of public giving for the same reasons. If one wanted to be more righteous than the Pharisees, one needed to be authentic and pure of heart.Well said CadyandZoe!

mjmselim
Jun 13th 2017, 03:01 AM
1. I submit proper Messianic Jewish position is not in contrast with that of Gentiles.
2. Most of the Characters in our New Testament are Jews and they are not in contrast doctrinally with Gentiles. In Christ, there is no distinction.
3. While many Orthodox Jews who come to Yeshua continue on with their traditions (as Christians do with Christmas, easter, etc.), properly discipled Jews realize they are no longer bound to the Law of Moses in application of their walk as properly discipled Christians know that skipping Christmas is not going to condemn them.

"As you suggest the Jewish position is in contrast to that of Gentiles."

Grace; I was in hopes of waiting awhile to enter the foray, or should I say fire, but God chooses our times; so, my reference that you highlighted alludes to the words of the thread starter who said:
"This is the man [main] issue......Does this scripture imply or suggest that Christians need to teach and obey the law? I don't think so. While the focus is on Jewish leaders and teachers, the main issue is the contrast between our ostensible beliefs and what we actually believe and that the difference is found in our action. How to live as a person of faith while under the covenant at Mt. Sinai is unique to the Jewish experience and as Jesus is speaking into that context, his focus remains there......But Gentile believers find themselves in other situations and circumstances that challenge them, and test their faith....."

As to your post:

1. I read the New Testament differently in regards to the contrast between Jews and Gentiles, and of course the Church of God; these three dispensationally; and all three having distinct dispositional characteristics. Romans is my manual of Christianity properly understood. (An aside essential to your reply, is that I was raised for several years in a non-practicing Jewish orthodox home; that I may be part Jew; to my amusement my wife is trying to become a Messianic Jew though 100% Gentile (or goy); and I am a lover and friend of Israel, with some very beloved friends and Christians that are Jews.

2. As I said in point #1 above, Romans, and now I add the rest of the New Testament shows a real sharp contrast. It appears only Messianic Jews alone (except for the wannabe Jewish Gentile Christians) who dilute this clear distinction. I here exclude the Gentile Christians who seek to 'arrogate' (to borrow Calvin's favorite lingo) Israel's place as the New Israel (better and improved), by the 'abrogation' (ibid) of Israel's rejection of Messiah King.

3. The comparison between Christian tradition to Jewish tradition is suspect, and to early to be disputed. If free from the Law by no longer bound to it, then they are dead (soften this out of respect for Jews as Jews and feel with their sufferings); nonetheless they and us are dead in Christ, and in Him new and raise high, very high. Some of these salient matters are already surfacing in this thread so I will not preempt others. Peace in Messiah Lord.

percho
Jun 13th 2017, 03:18 AM
Why quote me talking about Matthew 5 and discuss something else? And the righteousness of God in Christ isn't about the righteousness of one imputed to another.

That was by accident. I think because I had multi quoted in a previous post, Sorry.

Athanasius
Jun 13th 2017, 09:32 AM
On what day would one think, "Pastor Arron," gathered two days worth of manna?

Pastors also work on the 6th day.

CadyandZoe
Jun 13th 2017, 12:35 PM
I submit proper Messianic Jewish position is not in contrast with that of Gentiles. Most of the Characters in our New Testament are Jews and they are not in contrast doctrinally with Gentiles. In Christ, there is no distinction. While many Orthodox Jews who come to Yeshua continue on with their traditions (as Christians do with Christmas, easter, etc.), properly discipled Jews realize they are no longer bound to the Law of Moses in application of their walk as properly discipled Christians know that skipping Christmas is not going to condemn them.

I think that by design, God intended that during our time period we would be facing the exact mirror image question that the early church faced. During their time the question was, "can a person find reconciliation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life with God and live like a Gentile?" During our time, it seems, the question is, "can a person find reconciliation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life with God and live like a Jew?" I think the answer is yes in both cases but the question is both interesting and complicated.

I mean, it isn't any more complicated than accepting that Jesus is both Lord and Savior, placing trust in him, and living according to his teaching. The complications arise when folks attempt to signal their commitment religiously while others attempt to ascertain whether those folks are "safe" or "authentic."

keck553
Jun 13th 2017, 03:24 PM
Pastors also work on the 6th day.

And Levites worked on the 7th day, Shabbat.

Daniel567
Jun 13th 2017, 03:37 PM
Our idea of "perfect:flawless" came out of the Middle Ages, and wasn't in view during the time of Jesus.
We are not dealing with "our idea of perfect". We are dealing with the absolute perfection of God as revealed in the Holy Bible by the Holy Spirit. And what Jesus said is precisely what He meant. The Bible focuses on the righteousness of God, which is absolute, and the righteousness of Christ, which also is absolute. So when the Lord says that we sinful human beings are to be as perfect as the Father in Heaven, what He is implying is that no man will ever achieve that righteousness or that perfection through his own efforts.

Which brings us to the Gospel and justification by grace through faith. No amount of law-keeping will ever justify a sinner in the sight of God, but the Pharisees and lawyers of Christ's day vainly sought to establish their own righteousness. But the sinner who is genuinely justified is indeed perfect in God's sight, because God sees the righteousness of Christ covering him.


What Jesus meant to say was, "Be ye complete as your Father in heaven is complete", speaking about love.
Once again, we are driven to the Gospel. The love of God is agape, and this love cannot be simply generated by human beings through self-effort. Unless the Holy Spirit (who is God) dwells within the believer, God's love cannot be manifested. And the only way to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is to repent and be converted, which also means to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

So just as the Ten Commandments drive a sinner to Christ (as revealed in Scripture) the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount (which provide the true meaning of the Ten Commandments) drives us to Christ. Unless we have His righteousness imputed to us, and unless we have His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, we have no hope of ever being righteous.

Daniel567
Jun 13th 2017, 03:49 PM
Pastors also work on the 6th day.
That's by choice. There's no reason why it may not be made an "off" day if they so choose.

keck553
Jun 13th 2017, 03:58 PM
I think that by design, God intended that during our time period we would be facing the exact mirror image question that the early church faced.

That's an interesting thought, and I have a couple of thoughts about that. I know a real Messianic Jew who runs a congregation of believers, one of those members is a survivor of the holocaust who came to Christ at age 85. It was during her Bat Mitzvah that she confessed the joy and peace in Christ was far more humbling than being freed from the concentration camp. In fact she testified she really wasn't free until that day, and surviving the holocaust was in God's plan all along so He could reach her.....finally - through Jesus. The mercy and longsuffering of God for just one soul is humbling. People wept during her testimony. It was an amazing testimony and I believe the glory given to God that day will be emblazoned as a treasure in heaven forever.

But this Messianic Jew is different from the Hebrew Roots movement. He grew up embedded in orthodox Judaism along with an entire community so he knows the traditions and the letter as no gentile can. Few Gentiles grew up chanting and memorizing the five books of Moses word for word and living out the way of the Torah. This is truly a man who can understand what Paul went through regarding the Law of Moses and what the Gospel of Jesus brings to the table. His preaching, his doctrine and his teachings never come out of his soul without the embedded Gospel. His missions have brought real Jews to the real Jesus, from Israel to Russia he has brought many Jews to Christ.

Hebrew Roots may claim part of their practice is to attract Jews, but seriously they have no clue that playing Jew is not authentic. None of them grew up in the traditions of Judaism, the nuances, the way a soul surrounds itself with all the traditions, the communal unity and the embedded practices of worshipping God via the Torah of Moses where applicable.

If these authentic Jews who have come out of Judaism into the New Covenant align with Christian doctrine, how much more should we respect that? We have among us Paul's, we have among us real people who have left Hinduism, Islam and other false religions who have testimonies that are unique compared to the usual agnostic coming to Christ testimony.

These and my own experience have imprinted on me a sense of discernment when I hear faulty doctrines and legalism being preached. I admit I respond somewhat strongly to these doctrines of works, but I know from working out my own salvation these doctrines can really hinder a person from hearing the Spirit lead them.

Jesus is calling for all those imprisoned to come out into the light. But just like Lazarus, He isn't going to come into anyone's cave. They need to hear His Voice and come out. And be free. In Him. Legalism and allowing oneself to be subjected to legalism is one of the most confining prison a soul can be ensnared by.

And that is a huge issue in Western Society, and I've seen legalism in many forms and even in traditional Christian congregations (not naming names). But it is a problem and Hebrew Roots only adds to it.



During their time the question was, "can a person find reconciliation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life with God and live like a Gentile?" During our time, it seems, the question is, "can a person find reconciliation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life with God and live like a Jew?" I think the answer is yes in both cases but the question is both interesting and complicated.

I mean, it isn't any more complicated than accepting that Jesus is both Lord and Savior, placing trust in him, and living according to his teaching. The complications arise when folks attempt to signal their commitment religiously while others attempt to ascertain whether those folks are "safe" or "authentic."

The complications arise when we hear our own voice, walk our own path or attempt to follow the letter over Hearing His Voice.

Noeb
Jun 13th 2017, 05:02 PM
We are not dealing with "our idea of perfect". We are dealing with the absolute perfection of God as revealed in the Holy Bible by the Holy Spirit. So scripture says men were absolutely perfect like God?

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded:

CadyandZoe
Jun 13th 2017, 05:02 PM
We are not dealing with "our idea of perfect". We are dealing with the absolute perfection of God as revealed in the Holy Bible by the Holy Spirit. And what Jesus said is precisely what He meant.I agree. Jesus said what he meant. But what he meant isn't what you think he meant for the reasons I already laid out. Jesus did NOT say, "Be ye perfect", which is English. What Jesus actually said was

ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι

Lit. therefore be you mature

The Greek word teleioi comes from the word "telos:mature", which does NOT mean "absolute perfection" as you suppose. Far from it. A tree is "telos" when, after being planted in the ground as a seedling, it grows from a seedling into a fully grown plant. Before the tree becomes "telos" it continues to grow taller, adding new branches and the girdle getting wider. At some point, the tree reaches it's telos. It might not stop growing, but at some point it is considered a mature tree.

The same goes for a child. When a child reaches "telos" a boy has grown up to become a man and a girl grows up to become a woman. To say that a man is telos or that a woman is telos is not to suggest that either of them has reached absolute perfection. Not at all. Jesus is not asking us to be absolutely perfect. He is asking us to love other people the way God loves them and he gives us examples, i.e. God blesses both the good and the evil. We don't need to be absolutely perfect to do that.

Another word related to "telos:mature" is "plaroma:complete" since they share some of the same meaning. Here again, "plaroma" isn't unique or special to God. A good example of "plaroma" is a game of checkers in which some of the original checkers, which went missing, have been replaced by buttons. The checkers set is not perfect, that is, flawless. But the checkers set is "plaroma" because a couple of people can play the game of checkers with it. The set is "complete" in the fact that none of the pieces are missing, or some of the original pieces have been replaced such that the game can be played.

When Jesus says "be perfect" he either means "be mature" or "be complete", which is always within human possibility for those who care.

CadyandZoe
Jun 13th 2017, 05:09 PM
That's an interesting thought, and I have a couple of thoughts about that. I know a real Messianic Jew who runs a congregation of believers, one of those members is a survivor of the holocaust who came to Christ at age 85. It was during her Bat Mitzvah that she confessed the joy and peace in Christ was far more humbling than being freed from the concentration camp. In fact she testified she really wasn't free until that day, and surviving the holocaust was in God's plan all along so He could reach her.....finally - through Jesus. The mercy and longsuffering of God for just one soul is humbling. People wept during her testimony. It was an amazing testimony and I believe the glory given to God that day will be emblazoned as a treasure in heaven forever.

But this Messianic Jew is different from the Hebrew Roots movement. He grew up embedded in orthodox Judaism along with an entire community so he knows the traditions and the letter as no gentile can. Few Gentiles grew up chanting and memorizing the five books of Moses word for word and living out the way of the Torah. This is truly a man who can understand what Paul went through regarding the Law of Moses and what the Gospel of Jesus brings to the table. His preaching, his doctrine and his teachings never come out of his soul without the embedded Gospel. His missions have brought real Jews to the real Jesus, from Israel to Russia he has brought many Jews to Christ.

Hebrew Roots may claim part of their practice is to attract Jews, but seriously they have no clue that playing Jew is not authentic. None of them grew up in the traditions of Judaism, the nuances, the way a soul surrounds itself with all the traditions, the communal unity and the embedded practices of worshipping God via the Torah of Moses where applicable.

If these authentic Jews who have come out of Judaism into the New Covenant align with Christian doctrine, how much more should we respect that? We have among us Paul's, we have among us real people who have left Hinduism, Islam and other false religions who have testimonies that are unique compared to the usual agnostic coming to Christ testimony.

These and my own experience have imprinted on me a sense of discernment when I hear faulty doctrines and legalism being preached. I admit I respond somewhat strongly to these doctrines of works, but I know from working out my own salvation these doctrines can really hinder a person from hearing the Spirit lead them.

Jesus is calling for all those imprisoned to come out into the light. But just like Lazarus, He isn't going to come into anyone's cave. They need to hear His Voice and come out. And be free. In Him. Legalism and allowing oneself to be subjected to legalism is one of the most confining prison a soul can be ensnared by.

And that is a huge issue in Western Society, and I've seen legalism in many forms and even in traditional Christian congregations (not naming names). But it is a problem and Hebrew Roots only adds to it.



The complications arise when we hear our own voice, walk our own path or attempt to follow the letter over Hearing His Voice.

May we all be blessed by hearing his voice.

Thanks Keck.

Athanasius
Jun 13th 2017, 05:11 PM
That's by choice. There's no reason why it may not be made an "off" day if they so choose.

There's plenty of reasons, like preparing for Sunday. I hate to break it to you, but pastors don't typically choose their schedules, and they don't 'keep the Sabbath' if we're restricting it to Saturday, or for some reason, Sunday. The could take Monday off, until someone calls, or shows up at the door, or dies, or has some kind of crisis. And the same for Tuesday - Friday. So, if we're going to accuse anyone of breaking the Sabbath and not following the Law, let us start with our pastors.

Or acknowledge the ridiculousness of our positions.

Daniel567
Jun 13th 2017, 05:15 PM
I agree. Jesus said what he meant. But what he meant isn't what you think he meant for the reasons I already laid out. Jesus did NOT say, "Be ye perfect", which is English. What Jesus actually said was

ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι

Lit. therefore be you mature
The glaring flaw in your argument is that you omitted the last part of that verse. So let's go back to what Christ actually said: Be ye therefore perfect, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT.

So this is not merely about sinners being mature as God is mature, but sinners being as perfect as God the Father. The concept of "maturity" being applied to God would be laughable, that is why your argument is laughable.

God has always been God, and He has always been PERFECTLY GOD (which includes absolute moral perfection. God is Light, and in Him is NO DARKNESS at all). So what Jesus is telling us is that we must be as perfect as God the Father. Which is an impossibility without justification by grace through faith. When God justifies the sinner, He not only forgives his sins but He declares that the sinner is righteous -- as righteous as Christ. How can that be possible unless the perfect righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED to him? And unless this righteousness is ours as a gift, we cannot possible enter Heaven.

Slug1
Jun 13th 2017, 05:42 PM
That's by choice. There's no reason why it may not be made an "off" day if they so choose.Since this is a response that can be taken concerning my post #32... I will take this opportunity.

Testimony time: When I was in college, during a class titled "Pastoral Leadership" we were assigned 5 books for the class. Four that were necessary for the class (tests, papers, discussions, etc). But the other one was given as not mandatory for the class, but expressed as one for us to read and apply into our personal life. The teacher even expressed that he understands that of the 4 books, most of the reading will be to just find the answers, or material needed to simply pass tests and complete requirements for discussions and weekly reading papers.

But... of that one book, he encouraged us to read the book in it's entirety as it will not be referenced in any discussion questions/papers and will not be involved in any tests. But as leaders in the Body, will be a resource to help/encourage us to be better leaders.

In a concise statement as I can possible type out and give the book justice is: In the effort to have a "personal" relationship with God and in effort in the working out of our OWN salvation, leaders in church must determine a "sabbath" day to be with God. No distractions, no schedules, no counseling, no putting out fires, no shopping, no internet, no family (yes, apart from loved ones when diving into God)... point made? This is a day where a leader in a church GETS away from their life, away from the church and ALL the lives involved there and DIVES into ONLY God.

Your response to Athanasius:


That's by choice. There's no reason why it may not be made an "off" day if they so choose.

For the author, this (choice) day was Thursday every week. He even turned his cell phone and the church cell phone off :eek:

We are part of the New Covenant with God. Do we follow the "letter" of the Law (Saturday), the letter of standard denominational tradition (Sunday)... or the "Spirit" of God and settle into a day where we fall into God's lap and this day, call it... "our Sabbath day?"

General question, not directed at you... when we set aside "a" day to call or be our time with God and ONLY God, can this be considered "annulling" the Fourth Commandment if it's not on Saturday or Sunday?

CadyandZoe
Jun 13th 2017, 08:16 PM
The glaring flaw in your argument is that you omitted the last part of that verse. So let's go back to what Christ actually said: Be ye therefore perfect, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT.

So this is not merely about sinners being mature as God is mature, but sinners being as perfect as God the Father. The concept of "maturity" being applied to God would be laughable, that is why your argument is laughable.First, I don't accept your premise that a mature God is laughable since Jesus mentions that God has a mature love, or more accurately a "telos" love. But just in case we don't know what a "telos" love is like, Jesus offers examples for us to follow. Your view does not pay attention to the passage in which it is found, as you go wondering off into a pious description of God's perfection and our depravity. This remains a prime example of eisegesis, reading stuff into a text, which isn't as bad as missing the actual point of what was said.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So that you may be sons of your father who is in heaven:
In the New Testament, the term "sons" is sometimes used as a shorthand name for "those who have dedicated themselves to live according to the doctrines of the teacher." [Acts 19:14] Additionally, the term "sons" is used to indicate the qualities of a person. [Mark 3:17] In any case, if a person wants to be a "son of the father" whether man or woman, that person has dedicated to learning from the father and dedicated to emulating the father as much as possible. A son of the father echos or imitates the father in whatever he or she sees the father doing. And so Jesus is saying, anyone who is a son of the father will do as the father does: loves enemies and wishes well for those who persecute. For instance, Jesus says, by the will of the father the sun rises on both the evil and the good, and the rains fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Since you have focused on verse 48, dumping a bunch of pious theology into it, your view totally misses the point. Jesus is not saying that we can't do what the father does. On the contrary, as sons of the father we are expected to do as the father does, namely, love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Why? Because that is what Jesus did and that is what the Father does. While it is hard and very challenging to love your enemies from a jail cell, while your enemy is putting your friends to death, it isn't impossible. Jesus did it; and he expects us to do it. But if we assign our duty to the realm of the impossible before we begin, we will never try.

mjmselim
Jun 14th 2017, 02:58 AM
The complications arise when we hear our own voice, walk our own path or attempt to follow the letter over Hearing His Voice.

Testimony is appreciated and touching to the heart and conscience. Again, thanks for sharing this with us.

mjmselim
Jun 14th 2017, 03:23 AM
ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι Lit. therefore be you mature

The Greek word teleioi comes from the word "telos:mature", which does NOT mean "absolute perfection" as you suppose. Far from it. A tree is "telos" when, after being planted in the ground as a seedling, it grows from a seedling into a fully grown plant. Before the tree becomes "telos" it continues to grow taller, adding new branches and the girdle getting wider. At some point, the tree reaches it's telos. It might not stop growing, but at some point it is considered a mature tree. The same goes for a child.
Another word related to "telos:mature" is "plaroma:complete" since they share some of the same meaning. Here again, "plaroma" isn't unique or special to God. When Jesus says "be perfect" he either means "be mature" or "be complete", which is always within human possibility for those who care.

In line with the thread, I offer that teleioi (be perfect, complete, mature, full-grown) first occurs here in the New Testament. as you give, it comes from telos (end, maturity, perfection, completion, finality, outcome, etc); it first occurs in Mat. 10.22, then 13:39,40,49; which only means end, the end, the final end. The basic meaning is simple enough, and how it is hermeneutically applied, say to trees and kids, and especially to God is important as to our position in doctrine. Daniel567, argues rightly as to God's perfection, but what that perfection entails is why we search Scripture diligently. The nature of perfection as viewed in holiness is far different than what is viewed in righteousness or knowledge or wisdom, or any other category. Anyway just keeping up with everyone.
I say nothing on the Pleroma.

mjmselim
Jun 14th 2017, 03:38 AM
Since this is a response that can be taken concerning my post #32... I will take this opportunity.
Testimony time:
General question, not directed at you... when we set aside "a" day to call or be our time with God and ONLY God, can this be considered "annulling" the Fourth Commandment if it's not on Saturday or Sunday?

Thanks; excellent.
Romans 14:2-6: 2 One man hath faith to eat all things: but he that is weak eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth set at nought him that eateth not; and let not him that eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of Another? to his own Lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that eateth, eateth unto the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, unto the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.[/B]