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Bullfrog7
Jul 2nd 2017, 01:45 PM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

Noeb
Jul 2nd 2017, 04:59 PM
Heresies divide. That's what they do. God cannot be glorified by the vast majority of professed christians anyway. He is glorified when real christians, who received the Spirit, walk in holiness and unbelievers become believers as a result. That's it.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come [to you], he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.


Scripture never implies glorification via agreeing on doctrine. Religions differ and are supposed to. That's what they do. Disagreement in essentials means they are different religions. Why, or more importantly how, would God be glorified by different religions? The kingdom grew very large because of corruption. Not good. The real church is very small. Always has been, but wheat and tare grow up together making it appear large.

Jesuslovesus
Jul 2nd 2017, 05:03 PM
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


People disagree because we still only know in part-

Disagreements are supposed to happen-

The only thing is we are supposed to do this in Love and thats the real issue i see, the Love is growing cold, people divide over issues instead of loving each other because of these divisions.

Daniel567
Jul 2nd 2017, 06:00 PM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?
There are several reasons why Christians are divided:

1. The parable of the Wheat and the Tares shows us that there will always be counterfeit Christians among genuine Christians, and that these tares are sown by the enemy. That automatically shows a division in Christendom.

2. Paul tells us that there will be carnal Christians among spiritual Christians. So that further divides Christians.

3. Church history tells us that many (if not most) churches went into false doctrine and false practice almost since the inception of Christianity. That further divides Christians.

4. Heresies (false teachings) have become more and more prevalent as to approach the end of the Church Age. So today we have a tremendous amount of false teaching all around us, and some on this very forum promote false teachings.

Jude
Jul 2nd 2017, 06:23 PM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

Your opening statement gave rise to division the moment you brought in the ESV is that what this is all about?


Jude

Old man
Jul 2nd 2017, 06:31 PM
Your opening statement gave rise to division the moment you brought in the ESV is that what this is all about?


Jude

I take his comment about the ESV to be that Christians divide ever because we use different translations. It's just one more thing we divide over ... i.e. which translation is best or most correct.

Old man
Jul 2nd 2017, 06:38 PM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

My opinion is that God though probably prefers there not to be so much division still allows it to give us opportunity to exhibit purposeful, intentional, deliberate love for one another. We can have disagreements but we can still love each other. There is another level of unity besides agreeing with everyone doctrinally. It's agreeing to love each other. To consider each other as more important than ourselves (Phil 2:3-4). We can still have compassion and pray for one another regardless of our minor doctrinal differences.

Daniel567
Jul 2nd 2017, 07:44 PM
I take his comment about the ESV to be that Christians divide ever because we use different translations. It's just one more thing we divide over ... i.e. which translation is best or most correct.
Which should tell us that the multiplicity of translations is a Satanic strategy to not only divide Christians but to sow doubts, questions, and heresies pertaining to the written Word of God. I believe most here would know that I stand by the Authorized Version (KJV) without any apology.

DavidC
Jul 2nd 2017, 07:46 PM
Which should tell us that the multiplicity of translations is a Satanic strategy to not only divide Christians but to sow doubts, questions, and heresies pertaining to the written Word of God. I believe most here would know that I stand by the Authorized Version (KJV) without any apology.

It just seems the divisions among Christians goes far beyond any translations used. Some people don't even believe the Bible in any translation and start new churches based upon just that. :spin:

Old man
Jul 2nd 2017, 08:03 PM
Which should tell us that the multiplicity of translations is a Satanic strategy to not only divide Christians but to sow doubts, questions, and heresies pertaining to the written Word of God. I believe most here would know that I stand by the Authorized Version (KJV) without any apology.

I would look at it as being our own pride, arrogance and self righteous superiority that makes us divide over the different translations and not the translations themselves.

divaD
Jul 2nd 2017, 09:23 PM
and some on this very forum promote false teachings.

Just not you though, right?

Frank Lee
Jul 2nd 2017, 09:32 PM
Lust of the eyes, Lust of the flesh and the pride of life. By grace I was saved outside denominational walls and owe no allegiance to any denomination. All my devotion is to Jesus Christ. I love, or attempt to love, those inside denominations even though they try and tell me that everything that happened to me outside of their doctrinal statements is not of God. The denominations try to kill the spirit with their cold dead traditions. Jesus STILL has to go out and fetch heathens on His own. Thank the Lord.

I was visited over the years by "visitation" groups wanting me to come to their church. Not ONE OF THEM EVER TOLD ME ABOUT THE LOVE OF GOD FOR ME. JUST JOIN OUR HOLY CLUB.

They are no different from the democrats and Republicans who think more of their corrupt party than of the real American citizens.

The denominations deny God's gifts and calling as being "not for today, of the devil, unneeded, departure from God and etc" they sit and are transfixed by their doctor of letters and ignore the pleadings of the Holy Spirit. The Lord gave me a dream about these dead religions I call the ceramic Lamb and I will post it sometime.

Thanks and praise God for evermore for coming to get me, save me, baptize me in His Holy Spirit, deliver me before the denominations made one more religious bigot and zombie from my starving soul. I will try and lead people to Jesus as I can, not to some denomination that kills the spirit.

Thank you my Lord Jesus.

glad4mercy
Jul 2nd 2017, 10:19 PM
The reason why many CHRISTIANS are divided is because they get into their own little schism and never meet, talk to, or interact with other Christians of different persuasions in non-essentials. The differences we have can actually be used positively to learn from one another. No one's theology is perfect, and we can learn much from others who differ from us (in non essentials). The problem is, most Christians want to dismiss things out of hand if it's not what they've always believed. Yet I believe that if we are growing in Grace, there will be some things we once believed that we will discard and other things that we didn't believe that we will learn to accept. It is then that we are conforming our beliefs to the Bible, and not making the Bible conform to our beliefs.

We all come to the Word to a greater or lesser degree with our presuppositions and traditions, but we need to force our presuppositions and traditions to bow before the authority of the Word. Some have not learned to do this.

Tony P
Jul 2nd 2017, 10:23 PM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

Every single person has a different level of faith. Therefore, they have a different level of understanding when it comes to scripture. This has been the case from day one. Saducees vs Pharisees. Paul vs Barnabas. etc. Some believe in a literal six day creation, others are ashamed of it. Everyone's faith is different. Thus disagreement will remain forever.

glad4mercy
Jul 2nd 2017, 11:15 PM
Every single person has a different level of faith. Therefore, they have a different level of understanding when it comes to scripture. This has been the case from day one. Saducees vs Pharisees. Paul vs Barnabas. etc. Some believe in a literal six day creation, others are ashamed of it. Everyone's faith is different. Thus disagreement will remain forever.

But we must remember that Christians can disagree without dividing. We don't all think alike in all matters, but we can still be, must be one in Christ. We can separate ourselves from heresies without becoming heretics ourselves by understanding what is essential to Christianity and what is not.

justbyfaith
Jul 2nd 2017, 11:35 PM
In answer to the title question:

Some people who say they are Christians are not Christians at all and therefore do not have the Holy Ghost. See Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23, Acts 2:38-39, Romans 8:30.

Others truly are Christians but are carnally-minded and so when something spiritual is said, they disagree because they are carnally-minded. See 1 Corintihans 1:10-13 and 3:1-3. Also 1 Corinthians 2:14 referring both to the carnal-minded Christian and the unsaved. Also see Philippians 2:1-4 for an exhortation not to divide over nonesssentials..

justbyfaith
Jul 2nd 2017, 11:42 PM
I take his comment about the ESV to be that Christians divide ever because we use different translations. It's just one more thing we divide over ... i.e. which translation is best or most correct.

You can also get a different message from singe verses and the whole of the Bible when you compare translation to translation.

Tony P
Jul 2nd 2017, 11:43 PM
In answer to the title question:

Some people who say they are Christians are not Christians at all and therefore do not have the Holy Ghost. See Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23, Acts 2:38-39, Romans 8:30.

Others truly are Christians but are carnally-minded and so when something spiritual is said, they disagree because they are carnally-minded. See 1 Corintihans 1:10-13 and 3:1-3. Also 1 Corinthians 2:14 referring both to the carnal-minded Christian and the unsaved. Also see Philippians 2:1-4 for an exhortation not to divide over nonesssentials..

Are you suggesting those Christians that do not agree with you are NOT Christians?

justbyfaith
Jul 2nd 2017, 11:49 PM
Are you suggesting those Christians that do not agree with you are NOT Christians?

No, I'm saying they might not be, or they may be carnally-minded, or maybe I am mistaken in what I am saying and they are disagreeing because they really have the truth and are trying to correct me on sometihing. Or maybe we just all have different understandings because of differing backgrounds and how we have read the Bible, and there is truth to what each of us is saying but the contrast has not been reconciled in our minds.

In the beginning of my Christian walk I was told that there are many contradictions in the Bible, by people trying to dissuade me from my newfound faith. I have found that wherever there seems to be a contradiction between verses, there is scripture to reconcile the seeming contradictions in our understanding.

God deals in paradoxes very often. Example: predestination versus free will. We can't figure out how both can be true at the same time. Nevertheless both are true accoridng to scripture.

But the other reasons I mentioned (in my previous post) are valid reasons too.

randyk
Jul 3rd 2017, 12:50 AM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

It's a good question but there are good answers. We are called to unity for the very reason that division is possible, and tempting.

1) There is a Devil. He wants to disrupt unity in the Church and anything Christ does with us.
2) Christians are at all levels of spiritual development, and in all kinds of varied conditions, in terms of testing, spiritual warfare, weakness, etc.
3) We are encouraged to be individuals in the matter of testing for truth. We cannot rely upon a brother or sister who says, "Trust me." And so, we have to do our own studies, which are subject to all of the good and bad influences.
4) There is an honest to goodness diversity in the Church, which requires a certain amount of separating and distinguishing. For example, each political government may require its own separate religious order. Different needs may require different ministries. This does not have to destroy unity among denominations and ministries. The fact that it does at times is not necessarily an indication of failure over the long run.
5) There is a necessary division in the Church between liberals and conservatives, between the heretics and the orthodox, between the immoral and the obedient.

In matters of searching out doctrinal truth there are some issues that should be easy to unite on. And that's what makes for orthodoxy, the creation of creeds. That was done in the Early Church, and much of them are valid today.

On some issues that are peripheral there is a temptation to insist on answering things that cannot immediately be answered, the temptation to get impatient, the temptation of pride on being right or on being understood.

Forums like this one are great for exposing ourselves to these kinds of processes, to determine where we stand as far as biblical orthodoxy, attitude, and spirituality. And when we fall short we can test our willingness to avail ourselves of Christ's forgiveness. ;)

bluesky22
Jul 3rd 2017, 03:18 AM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

Bullfrog,

I think your premise is slightly flawed here.

We [ as a body ] are not as divided as you assert.

Yes, we heartily debate many issues, peripheral issues mostly. [ majoring on minors ] Some may seem major, but when the dust settles, it's not.

Yes there are some unclear issues. These we discuss, not for division but for clarity, because we are curious by nature.

But the essentials, the Gospel, is very clear and universal.

Now, whether one wants to believe or not it is another matter...

There are allot of grey areas, which can be expected with a worldview so powerful and complex as this.

Forums like BF are where we drill down into these issues, the details, the "nitty gritty" if you will.

We must not confuse discussion with division.

These arenas can give the illusion of greater division than what actually is.

There is a difference between the meat and the peas.

Most here acknowledge and agree with the Real Gospel, but we love to talk about the rest.

We all wish for greater overall unity; staying focused on scripture, diligent study and prayer draws us closer to this goal.

How can the Church be not so divided ?

Staying focused on Him who brought us together, for a common and clear mission.

Jesus is aways the answer. :)

TrustGzus
Jul 3rd 2017, 11:30 AM
Different views isn't the same as division. I'm very well acquainted with a KJVO brother. I think his ideas on that subject are wrong. However, I get along with him great. We both keep the main things as the main things. We are not divided.

I'm Reformed in my theology. I'm friends with many who are not Reformed. We have different opinions on these issues. I would not call us divided. We get along great.

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2017, 11:34 AM
Different views isn't the same as division. I'm very well acquainted with a KJVO brother. I think his ideas on that subject are wrong. However, I get along with him great. We both keep the main things as the main things. We are not divided.

I'm Reformed in my theology. I'm friends with many who are not Reformed. We have different opinions on these issues. I would not call us divided. We get along great.Hooah, division is nothing but a perspective at times. Your example is perfect because while the two of us have different views of some scripture, we are not divided at all.

grams
Jul 3rd 2017, 12:50 PM
Because people do not understand this verse at all


7

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Times are now changed............ We are Gentiles who are saved, people do not seem to understand " what JESUS went to the cross for"

GOD knew the times were going bad and will continue and made it so much easier for us in this time and the times to come..........

The devil i s out there pushing more and more..... People are falling for his schemes..........

DavidC
Jul 3rd 2017, 05:56 PM
Different views isn't the same as division. I'm very well acquainted with a KJVO brother. I think his ideas on that subject are wrong. However, I get along with him great. We both keep the main things as the main things. We are not divided.

I'm Reformed in my theology. I'm friends with many who are not Reformed. We have different opinions on these issues. I would not call us divided. We get along great.

Hi TrustGzus,

I was reading this thread earlier and thought - how can the Body of Christ be divided? Can it? if it were, then it would fall.

Then I read your post, sort of a confirmation. :)

jaybird
Jul 3rd 2017, 07:21 PM
Constantine made an interesting comment on this around 320 AD. as much as i dont care for him i happen to agree with his words

"why does this new religion place so much emphasis on theology and breaks itself into splinters due to its theological differences when it was evidently intended by the founder as found in the four gospels to improve the moral life of man, to increase his spiritual insight and advance the cause of universal brotherhood without consideration for various sectarian differences. "

glad4mercy
Jul 3rd 2017, 08:30 PM
Different views isn't the same as division. I'm very well acquainted with a KJVO brother. I think his ideas on that subject are wrong. However, I get along with him great. We both keep the main things as the main things. We are not divided.

I'm Reformed in my theology. I'm friends with many who are not Reformed. We have different opinions on these issues. I would not call us divided. We get along great.

I think differences of opinion in theology (as long as we keep what is essential) can mutually sharpen us. Usually the truth lies in the midst of us, for we are all looking at it from different perspectives, and our experiences and preconceptions may lead us to extremes. At least, until we look at the other aspects of a doctrine. Biblical doctrine is multi-faceted. I think we disagree because in a sense the various parties are looking at different facets of the same gem.

There are tensions in the Bible, places where one truth seems to contradict another. But there is actually no contradiction. There is only healthy tension. It is healthy, because it exists because the truth is not one dimensional, and not as "boxed in" as we all try to make it.

justbyfaith
Jul 4th 2017, 02:00 AM
I think differences of opinion in theology (as long as we keep what is essential) can mutually sharpen us. Usually the truth lies in the midst of us, for we are all looking at it from different perspectives, and our experiences and preconceptions may lead us to extremes. At least, until we look at the other aspects of a doctrine. Biblical doctrine is multi-faceted. I think we disagree because in a sense the various parties are looking at different facets of the same gem.

There are tensions in the Bible, places where one truth seems to contradict another. But there is actually no contradiction. There is only healthy tension. It is healthy, because it exists because the truth is not one dimensional, and not as "boxed in" as we all try to make it.

Excelent point!

chad
Jul 4th 2017, 06:30 AM
Division can occur if there is false teachers and prophets. The NT writes to beware of:

Those who cause divisions through teachings that are contray to what the apostles taught (NIV - Rom 16:17, 2 Thes 3:6, titus 1:11, Heb 13:9)



Some people are in error because they do not know the scripture, nor the power of God.

Error (NIV - Mt 22:29, Mk 12:24, Rom 1:27)

Teachings that are mere human rules (NIV - Mt 15:9; Mk 7:7)

Wrong teachings (NIV - Rev 2:14; Rev 2:20; Rev 2:24)



Sometimes there is division due to false Messiahs, apostles, prophets, believers.

False Messiah’s, prophets (NIV - Mt 7:15; Mt 24:24; Mk 13:22, Acts 13:6,)

False Apostles (NIV- 2 Cor 11:13)

False believers (NIV - 2 Cor 11:26; Gal 2:4)







Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

TrustGzus
Jul 19th 2017, 12:55 PM
It's the Bible's fault. One would think that if the Bible really is God's word, then it would have been much easier to understand by his followers. There would be no need to find the right interpretation for certain verses. There would be a broad consensus, like in science, about certain claims. But the mere fact that most people (and christians in particular) can't even agree with each other about what their "holy" book really means, is proof enough that the Bible is not God's genuine word. If it ever was, then it has been malformed and edited to death by the catholic church, so that the book we have today is just a shadow of it's original scriptures.

Typhoon, the Catholic Church has done nothing to the Bible. The New Testament has over 20,000 hand copied manuscripts in different languages for scholars to cross reference. For the Catholic Church to "malform" the Bible, they'd have to get all those copies.

It would be like you trying to edit yesterday's Chicago Tribune. Unless you can get a hold of all the copies distributed to all the customers and modify them all, you could not really modify the Trinune. Others would always have unmodified copies.

The fault is not with the Bible. The fault is with us.

randyk
Jul 20th 2017, 05:18 PM
It's the Bible's fault. One would think that if the Bible really is God's word, then it would have been much easier to understand by his followers. There would be no need to find the right interpretation for certain verses. There would be a broad consensus, like in science, about certain claims. But the mere fact that most people (and christians in particular) can't even agree with each other about what their "holy" book really means, is proof enough that the Bible is not God's genuine word. If it ever was, then it has been malformed and edited to death by the catholic church, so that the book we have today is just a shadow of it's original scriptures.

Non-Christians do not have a full understanding of the Scriptures. That's because part of the essential understanding comes experientially through faith in Christ. If you don't experience Christ's nature you won't see anything but darkness and division. If you see any good at all you will extol human virtues above the virtues of God Himself.

randyk
Jul 20th 2017, 05:22 PM
Typhoon, the Catholic Church has done nothing to the Bible. The New Testament has over 20,000 hand copied manuscripts in different languages for scholars to cross reference. For the Catholic Church to "malform" the Bible, they'd have to get all those copies.

It would be like you trying to edit yesterday's Chicago Tribune. Unless you can get a hold of all the copies distributed to all the customers and modify them all, you could not really modify the Trinune. Others would always have unmodified copies.

The fault is not with the Bible. The fault is with us.

Well, his point goes beyond that. He implies that Christians have no answer to all of the division. However, the no. 1 basis of Christian unity is our common experience of Christ as the divine Son of God, who has imparted his nature to us through the Holy Spirit. Rejecting that all that is seen is division, not understanding the difference between those who experience and follow Christ and those who don't.

Undoubtedly, true Christians have nevertheless fought one another. And so, the Bible is realistic and appeals to Christians to not give in to their lower nature. The reality of a "lower nature" in all of mankind does not militate against Christianity. It is just part of the "realism" that Christianity is!

But beyond this the poster ignores the Christian creeds, which do attempt to formulate basic theology upon which many churches throughout the ages have agreed on.

grams
Jul 20th 2017, 05:35 PM
Because people do not understand these verse at all


7

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Times are now changed............ We are Gentiles who are saved, people do not seem to understand " what JESUS went to the cross for"

GOD knew the times were going bad and will continue and made it so much easier for us in this time and the times to come..........

The devil i s out there pushing more and more..... People are falling for his schemes..........


There was a time before Jesus went to the Cross and things were way different ! "its in the bible"

But now "after JESUS went to the Cross for our sind"] Things did change GOD made this possible ........

And there is going to be "In ages to come" And if you think things are bad now................. Its going to be really bad........ !!!!!!!!!!!

The bible explains it , and some do not get it !

Things have changed so much since I was a little girl , I am 82 now............ Sooooooooo I can imagine the future !

So please try and help the lost ! When ever you can............ !

dan p
Jul 20th 2017, 09:29 PM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?


Hi ans I believe that the most common one is " What is for Israel " and " What isd for the Body of Christ " !!

danp

randyk
Jul 21st 2017, 12:34 AM
Hi ans I believe that the most common one is " What is for Israel " and " What isd for the Body of Christ " !!

danp

Well, maybe God intended that to be a "loaded question?" In the process of discovering what belongs to Israel and what belongs to the New Covenant Church maybe the key to life will be discovered? I'm a half glass full kind of person! ;)

dan p
Jul 21st 2017, 05:46 PM
Well, maybe God intended that to be a "loaded question?" In the process of discovering what belongs to Israel and what belongs to the New Covenant Church maybe the key to life will be discovered? I'm a half glass full kind of person! ;)


Hi and I believe that 2 Cor 3:13-16 shows that Israel was set aside , EVEN during Paul's ministry !!

dan p

Daniel567
Jul 21st 2017, 06:03 PM
Hi and I believe that 2 Cor 3:13-16 shows that Israel was set aside , EVEN during Paul's ministry !!
But at the same time Paul indicates that the setting aside of Israel is TEMPORARY -- until the fulness of the Gentiles has come into the Church. After that God will resume His dealings with Israel through Christ at His Second Coming. Please note carefully (Romans 11:25-28):

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

dan p
Jul 21st 2017, 06:31 PM
But at the same time Paul indicates that the setting aside of Israel is TEMPORARY -- until the fulness of the Gentiles has come into the Church. After that God will resume His dealings with Israel through Christ at His Second Coming. Please note carefully (Romans 11:25-28):

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.



Hi and you are right on !!

dan p

EarlyCall
Jul 22nd 2017, 09:56 AM
Christians disagree on virtually everything ranging from Bible translations, evangelism methodology, eschatology, ecclesiology, the work of the holy spirit, and the list goes on and on. Why cant we agree on the essentials of the faith? Is God glorified by the mass amount of division? Some groups add to the division and divide over petty differences. Take a visit to online Baptist and quote from the ESV and see what happens to you as an example. This may be an extreme example but these extreme examples are what fills the minds of unbelievers. How can we the church not be so divided?

I'd ask first if the list of things people can agree on, concerning anything in life is very long? Doesn't matter if it regards the bible or otherwise. So why then would we expect Christians to agree on the bible? Do people, Christian or otherwise agree on politics? Even concerning science, history and so on? No. Why then would it be different concerning the bible?

Does God get glory with all this division? God has declared He will get glory regardless of all things. God works that out and we need not worry about it. Our part is to obey Him and He will take care of the rest.

I want to know the deeper questions and the answers if possible, though I suspect such answers are reserved for our death.

The greatest single leap in knowledge and understanding comes to each and every person not in this lifetime but rather at their moment of death. Or so I think and we could debate that too. :)

What is the greater question here as I see it? There may be more than one, such as who can be saved when so many claim this or that and disagree on so many things?

Who on this board will not admit there are many, many wise Christians out there who surely seem to be men and women of God, truly so, and yet you disagree with them on this or that matter? Explain then how you know better than they? Explain your confidence level? Explain all such things to me if you think you can.

This I find frightening for I wonder how many will end up in hell having believed they knew, they were right when all along they were wrong!

I've heard a minister say, this simple little prayer of asking Jesus into your heart, to forgive your sins, you claiming to believe He is who He says is is, and then going off and living as you did, living like the world... In fact you are NOT saved and are still on your way to hell!

Is this minister wrong? If you think otherwise, if you disagree, you better hope you are right because you may be staking your eternal destiny on it. Certainly millions are.

I'm far less concerned about divisions and disagreements because God knew they would be. I'm much, much more concerned with somehow being right with God when I know so little, understand so little and have so little wisdom. Can God save one so small, so insignificant and so unable to save himself, so unable to rise above all the confusion, all the discord, all the disagreement?

My confidence is not in me and what I think I know, what I think I understand and the wisdom I think I have. If my confidence is in me, and this I must ever guard against, then I am lost. I suspect that if we do not find some way, each of us individually to be so close to God, so constantly led by and walking with the Holy Spirit, we may find in the end we knew too much of no value.

randyk
Jul 23rd 2017, 04:53 AM
Hi and I believe that 2 Cor 3:13-16 shows that Israel was set aside , EVEN during Paul's ministry !!

dan p

2 Cor 3.13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Well yes. Those in Judaism, who have "reinvented" the Law, are still in bondage to their carnal nature, because in rejecting Christ they have now turned away from the living word of God, which no longer demands obedience to the Law, but instead obedience to the resurrected Christ. After Christ was raised from the dead, after having been rejected by Israel, the Law ceased to be in operation for the Jewish People.

Their marriage contract, between God and themselves, was suspended. A new covenant became necessary. And Christ made that new contract to be no longer based on the Law, but on his own spirituality apart from the Law.

Jesus was never under the Law, being a sinless man. And so he offered his own sinless spirituality to those who were willing to obey him, free of charge. His own merit became their merit, since he was willing to give this spirituality to them for all time, having forgiven their sins.

So if Israel rejects Christ's spirituality and commandments then of course they are no longer acting as God's People and cannot be considered to be God's People. But they are still a promised nation, and if they come to Christ they will be restored--not just as individuals, but also as a nation. That last point is extremely important, because God promised Abraham a *nation,* and not just a remnant of individuals within a nation.

Daniel567
Jul 23rd 2017, 05:01 AM
But they are still a promised nation, and if they come to Christ they will be restored--not just as individuals, but also as a nation. That last point is extremely important, because God promised Abraham a *nation,* and not just a remnant of individuals within a nation.
And I trust you are aware that this will be fulfilled after the Second Coming of Christ. Replacement Theology has no foundation in Scripture.

randyk
Jul 23rd 2017, 05:16 AM
And I trust you are aware that this will be fulfilled after the Second Coming of Christ. Replacement Theology has no foundation in Scripture.

Bingo! I couldn't agree more! :)