PDA

View Full Version : Land promised to Israel



kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 10:49 AM
Land promised to Israel to me includes the USA. I am using this verse of scripture to define that:


Joshua 1:3-4 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.


To me this means heading west to setting of the sun, was all the land given. To me this verse includes the west. Does anyone else see it that way or is it just me?

Walls
Jul 23rd 2017, 11:43 AM
Land promised to Israel to me includes the USA. I am using this verse of scripture to define that:


Joshua 1:3-4 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.


To me this means heading west to setting of the sun, was all the land given. To me this verse includes the west. Does anyone else see it that way or is it just me?

The great sea was the Mediterranean Sea. Remember that it is a LAND with boundaries, not oceans. In Joshua 9:1 the "Great Sea" touched Lebanon, making it the Mediterranean.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 11:55 AM
The great sea was the Mediterranean Sea. Remember that it is a LAND with boundaries, not oceans. In Joshua 9:1 the "Great Sea" touched Lebanon, making it the Mediterranean.

Thanks for your input. The word ocean did not exist. The “toward the setting of the sun” being mentioned after the great sea to me takes it farther, not just up to the great sea, that is why the question. Just wanting to know if anyone else sees the western areas also being a part as I do.

CadyandZoe
Jul 23rd 2017, 12:12 PM
Thanks for your input. The word ocean did not exist. The “toward the setting of the sun” being mentioned after the great sea to me takes it farther, not just up to the great sea, that is why the question. Just wanting to know if anyone else sees the western areas also being a part as I do.The passage describes the boundaries of the land, giving topological features for each compass point. I believe "the wilderness" marks the southern border, "this Lebanon" marks the northern boarder, "the river Euphrates" marks the eastern boarder, and the "great sea" marks the western boarder. When he mentions "toward the going down of the sun" this doesn't mark a boundary, it establishes a compass point direction. If Joshua were to travel toward the going down of the sun, he would come to a coast line, and that coast line marks the western most extent of the land. Remember, the promise concerns how much land Joshua can "walk", which would end at the river Euphrates and the coast of the Mediterranean sea, as Walls points out. If Joshua were to go further west, he would need a boat and would no longer be walking.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 12:54 PM
The passage describes the boundaries of the land, giving topological features for each compass point. I believe "the wilderness" marks the southern border, "this Lebanon" marks the northern boarder, "the river Euphrates" marks the eastern boarder, and the "great sea" marks the western boarder. When he mentions "toward the going down of the sun" this doesn't mark a boundary, it establishes a compass point direction. If Joshua were to travel toward the going down of the sun, he would come to a coast line, and that coast line marks the western most extent of the land. Remember, the promise concerns how much land Joshua can "walk", which would end at the river Euphrates and the coast of the Mediterranean sea, as Walls points out. If Joshua were to go further west, he would need a boat and would no longer be walking.

This is true on the walking part...I guess I see it as God saying to go west young man go west. So do you see verses like this then only meaning areas around the defined area you mention?

Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

I guess I see scripture as being more a world thing.

jesusinmylife
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:16 PM
Thanks for your input. The word ocean did not exist.

For that matter, the USA didn't exist either. So you can't inherit what doesn't exist.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:18 PM
For that matter, the USA didn't exist either. So you can inherit what doesn't exist.

I would say yes you can inherit if your feet walk upon it. So that would include the west.

jesusinmylife
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:19 PM
I would say yes you can inherit if your feet walk upon it. So that would include the west.

Then you answered your own question. Joshua never walked on the USA.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:25 PM
For that matter, the USA didn't exist either. So you can't inherit what doesn't exist.

It was an everlasting covenant.

jesusinmylife
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:29 PM
It was an everlasting covenant.


Seeing as how it never happened, it would appear it wasn't.
Where is this everlasting covenant found? I'd be interested to see how the USA is specifically mentioned. Or other places outside of what was Israel.

BrianW
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:32 PM
kyCyd,

Think about it for a second, by your logic it would include everything before him and then all the way around to come up against his back. I'm not joking or trying to be rude with that comment- just in case anyone sees it that way.

I'm an American and I love my country. But it's not connected biblically with Israel in this way.

Edit to say: From what I understand God promised everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon, everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates river, everything Israel currently has, all of what is now called Palestine (including Gaza), some of Egypt and Syria, Jordan, and parts of of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:37 PM
Seeing as how it never happened, it would appear it wasn't.
Where is this everlasting covenant found? I'd be interested to see how the USA is specifically mentioned. Or other places outside of what was Israel.

Weren't they fulfilling a promise to Abraham?

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Deuteronomy 19:8 And if the LORD thy God enlarge thy coast, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, and give thee all the land which he promised to give unto thy fathers;

Therefore the footsteps didn't just have to be Joshua to me. As I said I see things more worldly.

Kalahari
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:41 PM
Deu 34:1 Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Mount Pisgah east of Jericho, and there the LORD showed him the whole land: the territory of Gilead as far north as the town of Dan;
Deu 34:2 the entire territory of Naphtali; the territories of Ephraim and Manasseh; the territory of Judah as far west as the Mediterranean Sea;
Deu 34:3 the southern part of Judah; and the plain that reaches from Zoar to Jericho, the city of palm trees.
Deu 34:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "This is the land that I promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob I would give to their descendants. I have let you see it, but I will not let you go there."

I would say the west (USA) is not included.

jesusinmylife
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:43 PM
Weren't they fulfilling a promise to Abraham?

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Deuteronomy 19:8 And if the LORD thy God enlarge thy coast, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, and give thee all the land which he promised to give unto thy fathers;

Therefore the footsteps didn't just have to be Joshua to me. As I said I see things more worldly.

Was the covenant about inheriting the USA, or was He perhaps talking about something else?

So the question here would be, which land specifically was promised?

The main thing is to look at things in context. We can see things any way we want them. But what did the author intend, and what did the listeners understand? And more importantly, who was this covenant made to? Because Israel did inherit the known world in it's day. But it's pretty clear in Jesus time that Israel's boundaries did not include the rest of the geographical world.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:47 PM
Deu 34:1 Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Mount Pisgah east of Jericho, and there the LORD showed him the whole land: the territory of Gilead as far north as the town of Dan;
Deu 34:2 the entire territory of Naphtali; the territories of Ephraim and Manasseh; the territory of Judah as far west as the Mediterranean Sea;
Deu 34:3 the southern part of Judah; and the plain that reaches from Zoar to Jericho, the city of palm trees.
Deu 34:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "This is the land that I promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob I would give to their descendants. I have let you see it, but I will not let you go there."

I would say the west (USA) is not included.

So you don't see God ever enlarging a coast since then. Thanks for all of you inputs.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:49 PM
Was the covenant about inheriting the USA, or was He perhaps talking about something else?

So the question here would be, which land specifically was promised?

The main thing is to look at things in context. We can see things any way we want them. But what did the author intend, and what did the listeners understand? And more importantly, who was this covenant made to? Because Israel did inherit the known world in it's day. But it's pretty clear in Jesus time that Israel's boundaries did not include the rest of the geographical world.

This is true, thanks for your input

Kalahari
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:51 PM
So you don't see God ever enlarging a coast since then. Thanks for all of you inputs.

Not in giving the land to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as promised.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:53 PM
Was the covenant about inheriting the USA, or was He perhaps talking about something else?

So the question here would be, which land specifically was promised?

The main thing is to look at things in context. We can see things any way we want them. But what did the author intend, and what did the listeners understand? And more importantly, who was this covenant made to? Because Israel did inherit the known world in it's day. But it's pretty clear in Jesus time that Israel's boundaries did not include the rest of the geographical world.

To me God was saying to go west, is all I am pointing out. Also about expanding boarders mentioned... I just wanted to see if anyone else would see that. It is pretty obvious thus far that no one sees that as a possibility except for me.

BrianW
Jul 23rd 2017, 01:59 PM
We're all here to ask, learn edify and be edified. Don't hesitate to put things like this out there because it's part of what Bible Forums is for.

CadyandZoe
Jul 23rd 2017, 03:04 PM
This is true on the walking part...I guess I see it as God saying to go west young man go west. So do you see verses like this then only meaning areas around the defined area you mention?

Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

I guess I see scripture as being more a world thing.Yes. Remember, at this point Joshua's focus is on his mission to bring his people into the promised land and so we understand the book of Joshua from that perspective. Much later though, when Judah is in exile, and seemingly spread out among the other nations, the Lord Comforts his people to say that there is no place for them to go that Yahweh can not find them and save them.

Trivalee
Jul 23rd 2017, 03:48 PM
This is true on the walking part...I guess I see it as God saying to go west young man go west. So do you see verses like this then only meaning areas around the defined area you mention?

Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

I guess I see scripture as being more a world thing.

I believe that Israel duly inherited all the land promised to them as they were shared among the 12 tribes. If the West (Europe, USA) was included, then they would have failed since they did not take the west.

When God said he "will save Israel from the east country and the west country" it is obvious that the emphasis here is redemption from captivity started by Antiochus and taken to a new level by the Romans in 70 AD.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 04:09 PM
We're all here to ask, learn edify and be edified. Don't hesitate to put things like this out there because it's part of what Bible Forums is for.

Thanks Brian I appreciate that and felt fine asking.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 04:12 PM
I believe that Israel duly inherited all the land promised to them as they were shared among the 12 tribes. If the West (Europe, USA) was included, then they would have failed since they did not take the west.

When God said he "will save Israel from the east country and the west country" it is obvious that the emphasis here is redemption from captivity started by Antiochus and taken to a new level by the Romans in 70 AD.

I see what you are saying and felt that way before myself knowing all those scriptures. I don't see it as failure though, just a delay as it was for Abraham. I just see the time of taking the land as more a beginning, not an ending of them receiving the land of their inheritance. To me and the actual Hebrew word for “ toward the going down” literally means “the west”. I am sure no one has really looked at it before taking all the scriptures which I am also aware of into play. It was something brought to my attention in a study time with the Lord about. That is why I brought it up, as the verse could have not mentioned that part at all if it were to end there, yet those words are there. So it would say: unto the great sea the west, shall be your coasts.

randyk
Jul 23rd 2017, 09:02 PM
Land promised to Israel to me includes the USA. I am using this verse of scripture to define that:


Joshua 1:3-4 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.


To me this means heading west to setting of the sun, was all the land given. To me this verse includes the west. Does anyone else see it that way or is it just me?

No, the land involved a particular nation, Israel. They were to have borders to separate them from, and to distinguish them from, other nations.

randyk
Jul 23rd 2017, 09:06 PM
kyCyd,

Think about it for a second, by your logic it would include everything before him and then all the way around to come up against his back. I'm not joking or trying to be rude with that comment- just in case anyone sees it that way.

I'm an American and I love my country. But it's not connected biblically with Israel in this way.

Edit to say: From what I understand God promised everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon, everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates river, everything Israel currently has, all of what is now called Palestine (including Gaza), some of Egypt and Syria, Jordan, and parts of of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

Totally right. All you have to do is follow the biblical narrative to know what was included. The Scriptures say it was inherited, in the past. So the conquest after Egypt was what was inherited--not some future conquest of the world, or inheritance of the world.

Daniel567
Jul 23rd 2017, 09:08 PM
Land promised to Israel to me includes the USA.
Well you have absolutely no scriptural basis for that conclusion. The land of Israel (as God sees it in the future) has a very clear demarcation, with the Mediterranean Sea on one side, ad the boundaries stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates (Genesis 15).

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, [B]Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

Daniel567
Jul 23rd 2017, 09:11 PM
I believe that Israel duly inherited all the land promised to them as they were shared among the 12 tribes.
But you seem to be conveniently forgetting that Israel lost their land because of their own disobedience and rebellion, and "the times of the Gentiles" began around 600 B.C. and are not over as yet. So Israel was under the domination of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Graeco-Macedonia, Rome, and then the Muslims, and even now Muslims are occupying a large portion of Israel and claiming that the Temple Mount belongs to them.

kyCyd
Jul 23rd 2017, 09:53 PM
Well you have absolutely no scriptural basis for that conclusion. The land of Israel (as God sees it in the future) has a very clear demarcation, with the Mediterranean Sea on one side, ad the boundaries stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates (Genesis 15).

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.


Thanks for your input, I said I was the only one to see this. The west has all the markers for it to me and God said he would make Abraham a great nation, that has never happened or has it?. I mean we have almost as many Jews here as there are in Israel. The land also with circumcision makes a statement about it.

I do appreciate all the responses to see what others thought about going west... Thanks all. It really isn't that big of a deal, I just remain open minded about it all, even where prophecy is concerned.

Walls
Jul 24th 2017, 11:54 AM
Just a small addendum.

The size of the Promised Land changes slightly over time. The first allusion to its size is in Genesis 13:14-15;

14 "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Now, unless Abraham was on Mount Hermon north-east of the Good Land (7,330 ft), he would not be able to "SEE" the whole Land that is later Promised. Abraham was most probably dwelling somewhere near Mamre, would have been on an elevated point, but only about 3,300 ft above sea level. But God makes the boundaries clear in Genesis 17:8 - "ALL the Land of Canaan".

Then, when Joshua took the Land it was not as big as God gave in Joshua 1:4. It was only when David conquered all foes of Israel round about that the Land stretched to the Euphrates River. Then, in the Millennium, when our Lord Jesus, seed of David, sits on the throne in Jerusalem, the Land will be the size of Ezekiel 47:15-21. What is significant here is that previously the "Salt Sea", the "Dead Sea", had been Israel's eastern border (with two tribes living on the eastern side of Jordan). But in Ezekiel 47 the Land will stretch to the "East Sea" which is the Arabian Sea or Gulf. That means that parts of Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia will be part of Israel's Kingdom in the Millennium.

Anybody with any other thoughts?

CadyandZoe
Jul 24th 2017, 12:04 PM
Just a small addendum.

The size of the Promised Land changes slightly over time. The first allusion to its size is in Genesis 13:14-15;

14 "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Now, unless Abraham was on Mount Hermon north-east of the Good Land (7,330 ft), he would not be able to "SEE" the whole Land that is later Promised. Abraham was most probably dwelling somewhere near Mamre, would have been on an elevated point, but only about 3,300 ft above sea level. But God makes the boundaries clear in Genesis 17:8 - "ALL the Land of Canaan".

Then, when Joshua took the Land it was not as big as God gave in Joshua 1:4. It was only when David conquered all foes of Israel round about that the Land stretched to the Euphrates River. Then, in the Millennium, when our Lord Jesus, seed of David, sits on the throne in Jerusalem, the Land will be the size of Ezekiel 47:15-21. What is significant here is that previously the "Salt Sea", the "Dead Sea", had been Israel's eastern border (with two tribes living on the eastern side of Jordan). But in Ezekiel 47 the Land will stretch to the "East Sea" which is the Arabian Sea or Gulf. That means that parts of Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia will be part of Israel's Kingdom in the Millennium.

Anybody with any other thoughts?

The promise in Genesis 13 is for the whole world. The promise in Genesis 15, concerns the land and a brief summary of the survey points are given there.

Walls
Jul 24th 2017, 12:38 PM
The promise in Genesis 13 is for the whole world. The promise in Genesis 15, concerns the land and a brief summary of the survey points are given there.

I doubt that the Promise of Genesis 13 is the whole world. It specifically says that it was limited to what Abraham could "SEE". Unless the Bible has made an error. And in verse 17 it is limited to where Abraham "WALKED".

The Promise of the whole world comes later when Abraham had refused the spoils of the world (after the slaughter of kings), and had offered Isaac. There he shows that he believed that the Kingdom is to be had in resurrection. Added to this, the Promise of the whole world could not pertain to Israel, seed of the flesh, as this Kingdom is ripped away from them in Matthew 21:43. Added to this, it needs Rebirth and Immersion in water to gain the Kingdom (Jn.3:3-5 - which Kingdom will fill the whole earth), and Israel refuse both. Ezekiel 47 shows the borders that pertain to; "... ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions." So also verse 21.

Trivalee
Jul 24th 2017, 01:14 PM
I see what you are saying and felt that way before myself knowing all those scriptures. I don't see it as failure though, just a delay as it was for Abraham. I just see the time of taking the land as more a beginning, not an ending of them receiving the land of their inheritance. To me and the actual Hebrew word for “ toward the going down” literally means “the west”. I am sure no one has really looked at it before taking all the scriptures which I am also aware of into play. It was something brought to my attention in a study time with the Lord about. That is why I brought it up, as the verse could have not mentioned that part at all if it were to end there, yet those words are there. So it would say: unto the great sea the west, shall be your coasts.

I believe that CadyandZoe had already explained that the "west" does not mean west as in Europe because the Jews would have had to use boats to cross the seas and that is not walking, per God's instructions. I wonder why that explanation, which is logically sound in my opinion, isn't satisfactory? Why the insistence in making it what you want it to be, ignoring the fact that what you want it to be, isn't plausible?

kyCyd
Jul 24th 2017, 02:59 PM
I believe that CadyandZoe had already explained that the "west" does not mean west as in Europe because the Jews would have had to use boats to cross the seas and that is not walking, per God's instructions. I wonder why that explanation, which is logically sound in my opinion, isn't satisfactory? Why the insistence in making it what you want it to be, ignoring the fact that what you want it to be, isn't plausible?

I never said I didn't believe all the scripture posted, I do believe them. I also believe what I was shown as far as going west, and wonder if that is also how the ancient Hebrew understood it. Via boats or not... they definitely had ships in those days. Why would you care if I interpret the Hebrew meaning of the words. Why would it bother you that I believe it how it is interpreted?

I am reading a book online right now and it started off talking about the Los Lunas stone found in New Mexico that is from about 1000 BC inscribed in ancient Hebrew from the time of King Solomon, with the ten commandments and the name of God on it in ancient Hebrew. Evidence that the tribes were here? I just always find these things interesting. God did say there is no new thing under the sun. We tend to have this cave man mentality regarding ancient times. Yet in scripture stones were markers for things for the tribes. Look how far we have come in just 200 years.

It is just more reason to me to keep an open mind regarding a lot of things. There was a blindness prophecied for sure which we are in. They keep learning more and more even with DNA... how the Y chromosome passes virtually unchanged from father to son. That makes sence to me. I am sure in time they will unlock even more mysteries.

kyCyd
Jul 24th 2017, 03:38 PM
Just a small addendum.

The size of the Promised Land changes slightly over time. The first allusion to its size is in Genesis 13:14-15;

14 "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Now, unless Abraham was on Mount Hermon north-east of the Good Land (7,330 ft), he would not be able to "SEE" the whole Land that is later Promised. Abraham was most probably dwelling somewhere near Mamre, would have been on an elevated point, but only about 3,300 ft above sea level. But God makes the boundaries clear in Genesis 17:8 - "ALL the Land of Canaan".

Then, when Joshua took the Land it was not as big as God gave in Joshua 1:4. It was only when David conquered all foes of Israel round about that the Land stretched to the Euphrates River. Then, in the Millennium, when our Lord Jesus, seed of David, sits on the throne in Jerusalem, the Land will be the size of Ezekiel 47:15-21. What is significant here is that previously the "Salt Sea", the "Dead Sea", had been Israel's eastern border (with two tribes living on the eastern side of Jordan). But in Ezekiel 47 the Land will stretch to the "East Sea" which is the Arabian Sea or Gulf. That means that parts of Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia will be part of Israel's Kingdom in the Millennium.

Anybody with any other thoughts?

That is true for Abraham, but aren't we looking to more the promise to Jacob I mean it would be to Jacob we are looking at? I found it interesting that the west was mentioned first. This was to Jacob:

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

keck553
Jul 24th 2017, 06:41 PM
Since the earth isn't flat, the horizon defines the boundary from a particular standpoint.

Walls
Jul 24th 2017, 10:07 PM
That is true for Abraham, but aren't we looking to more the promise to Jacob I mean it would be to Jacob we are looking at? I found it interesting that the west was mentioned first. This was to Jacob:

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Yes. But this verse in Genesis 28:14 is answered in Galatians 3:14-16. He was talking of Jesus Christ bringing blessing on the Gentiles. Jesus Christ BORN of the Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35). And so the whole earth is given to Abraham's seed (Rom.4:13), but not those born of the womb like Nicodemus thought. It is given to those born of the Spirit (Jn.3:3-6). The Lord pointedly said that in Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28 that;

"Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

The Lord introduces John Baptist, "greatest prophet ever but BORN TO A WOMAN" as being LOWER than the "Least" born by the Holy Spirit, for one cannot ENTER the Kingdom without rebirth by the Holy Spirit in John 3:3-5. Thus, there are TWO CLASSES of Abraham's seed.

Those born of the womb, the flesh, who inherit Canaan
Those born of the Holy Spirit, who inherit the whole world.

Take the Twelve Apostles for instance. They are born seed of Abraham via the flesh. This made them eligible to be inserted into the Land of Canaan in the Millennium. But they BELIEVE and become born of the Holy Spirit. Now they not only inserted into the Land of Canaan, BUT THEY RULE the Twelve Tribes in the Millennium (Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30). David too. From the history of Israel we learn he is a Jew. But from the Psalms we see him write extensively of the Messiah. To write that, he had to BELIEVE in Messiah (looking forward like Job and Moses). Thus, when our Lord returns, David is resurrected as both Jew AND Christian. He is not only inserted into Canaan as seed of Isaac according to the flesh, but through FAITH he is RULER of all Israel as Christ's second in command (Jer.30:9).

kyCyd
Jul 25th 2017, 10:47 AM
Yes. But this verse in Genesis 28:14 is answered in Galatians 3:14-16. He was talking of Jesus Christ bringing blessing on the Gentiles. Jesus Christ BORN of the Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35). And so the whole earth is given to Abraham's seed (Rom.4:13), but not those born of the womb like Nicodemus thought. It is given to those born of the Spirit (Jn.3:3-6). The Lord pointedly said that in Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28 that;

"Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

The Lord introduces John Baptist, "greatest prophet ever but BORN TO A WOMAN" as being LOWER than the "Least" born by the Holy Spirit, for one cannot ENTER the Kingdom without rebirth by the Holy Spirit in John 3:3-5. Thus, there are TWO CLASSES of Abraham's seed.

Those born of the womb, the flesh, who inherit Canaan
Those born of the Holy Spirit, who inherit the whole world.

Take the Twelve Apostles for instance. They are born seed of Abraham via the flesh. This made them eligible to be inserted into the Land of Canaan in the Millennium. But they BELIEVE and become born of the Holy Spirit. Now they not only inserted into the Land of Canaan, BUT THEY RULE the Twelve Tribes in the Millennium (Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30). David too. From the history of Israel we learn he is a Jew. But from the Psalms we see him write extensively of the Messiah. To write that, he had to BELIEVE in Messiah (looking forward like Job and Moses). Thus, when our Lord returns, David is resurrected as both Jew AND Christian. He is not only inserted into Canaan as seed of Isaac according to the flesh, but through FAITH he is RULER of all Israel as Christ's second in command (Jer.30:9).

I understand what you are saying, but that really wasn't my question. I wasn't talking spiritual at all. In the OP I just really wanted to know if any would interpret that verse as I did, and see it as saying to head west toward the going down of the sun. Most felt that only that tiny bit of land was what was given in the whole earth. Whereas for me I saw it as heading also west. I see it as greater than that as the multitude of the seed that was also promised. It does define the area to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

As I look at that land today, to me it is filled with Abraham seed, but that of Ishmael. Is that how you see it today? To me it is not occupied by sons of Jacob.

randyk
Jul 25th 2017, 03:56 PM
Just a small addendum.

The size of the Promised Land changes slightly over time. The first allusion to its size is in Genesis 13:14-15;

14 "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Now, unless Abraham was on Mount Hermon north-east of the Good Land (7,330 ft), he would not be able to "SEE" the whole Land that is later Promised. Abraham was most probably dwelling somewhere near Mamre, would have been on an elevated point, but only about 3,300 ft above sea level. But God makes the boundaries clear in Genesis 17:8 - "ALL the Land of Canaan".

Then, when Joshua took the Land it was not as big as God gave in Joshua 1:4. It was only when David conquered all foes of Israel round about that the Land stretched to the Euphrates River. Then, in the Millennium, when our Lord Jesus, seed of David, sits on the throne in Jerusalem, the Land will be the size of Ezekiel 47:15-21. What is significant here is that previously the "Salt Sea", the "Dead Sea", had been Israel's eastern border (with two tribes living on the eastern side of Jordan). But in Ezekiel 47 the Land will stretch to the "East Sea" which is the Arabian Sea or Gulf. That means that parts of Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia will be part of Israel's Kingdom in the Millennium.

Anybody with any other thoughts?

I've had lots of thoughts about this, but no definitive answers. I do think that Israel is to be enclosed, for the foreseeable future, by boundaries distinguishing them from other nations. I do not think Israel will be significantly expanded beyond their own ethnic population. What they will be in the Millennium is anybody's guess, as far as I know?

The emphasis in the NT is more on the unity among the variety of ethnic groups who are Christian. This doesn't alter the fact there are separate nations. It just emphasizes the fact that we are a collective, and as such, "inherit the world."

I don't, therefore, believe Israel as a nation inherits the world for its own specific nation. Rather, we all collectively inherit the earth, including all nations dedicated to Christianity. We don't see much of that anymore, but it has existed in history and may very well exist in the Millennium. I'm speaking of Christian nations, regardless of how Christian each and every individual in a nation is. When nations dedicate themselves to Christianity they are considered "holy" by God. And becoming generally a participant in the Church they do participate in the collective inheritance of the world.

God seems to have been interested, for whatever reason, in a distinction of many nations. This may be His interest in diversity, and this may be to prevent the consolidation of power in the hands of a few who could lead the whole astray.

Whatever the reason God promised Abraham *nations*--plural. And so each nation should have defensible boundaries, enclosing a land area that can be self-sufficient for its people--energy sources, food sources, water sources, and trade sources. There should be enough natural resources for industrial and commercial development. These are common sense issues. But it is plain that with respect to Israel there is little common sense in the Arab world. They simply want the Jewish State to perish!

Walls
Jul 26th 2017, 12:52 PM
I understand what you are saying, but that really wasn't my question. I wasn't talking spiritual at all. In the OP I just really wanted to know if any would interpret that verse as I did, and see it as saying to head west toward the going down of the sun. Most felt that only that tiny bit of land was what was given in the whole earth. Whereas for me I saw it as heading also west. I see it as greater than that as the multitude of the seed that was also promised. It does define the area to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

As I look at that land today, to me it is filled with Abraham seed, but that of Ishmael. Is that how you see it today? To me it is not occupied by sons of Jacob.

OK. I see. You are correct to certain degree. Before writing further. the reason that the seed o Isaac are everywhere is due to their not keeping the Law and turning to the idols of the heathen. That the seed of Isaac (or Jacob if you will) is dispersed over the whole earth is a chastisement. Deuteronomy 28:15-64 threatens;

15 "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
......
63 "And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone."

Israel are not strewed all over the earth because their Land is that big. They are dispersed among all nations because the broke the Covenant of Sinai.

As to Ishmael's seed, they are the Arabs and they are not widespread. Syria are Syrians and not seed of Ishmael. Iran are Persians and not seed of Ishmael. Egyptians are not Ishmaelites. Ishmael's seed make up Kuwait, some of Irak, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Emirates and Oman. They all have relatively small populations and do not occupy the Good Land. That is occupied by the sons of Canaan, one of Noah's grandsons, and the Philistines (Palastinians), sons of Cush (Genesis 10:14). Remember too that Ishmael, although he is not the son of Promise, had God's blessing, unlike the Canaanites who had His curse.

One last point that might help to clear things up. The Promises by the Prophets are that Israel will GATHERED FROM ALL NATIONS back to their Land. If the Land God gave to Abraham's earthly seed was more than this, then they would not be GATHERED OUT OF THEM (Deut.30:3, etc.)

Walls
Jul 26th 2017, 01:08 PM
I've had lots of thoughts about this, but no definitive answers. I do think that Israel is to be enclosed, for the foreseeable future, by boundaries distinguishing them from other nations. I do not think Israel will be significantly expanded beyond their own ethnic population. What they will be in the Millennium is anybody's guess, as far as I know?

The emphasis in the NT is more on the unity among the variety of ethnic groups who are Christian. This doesn't alter the fact there are separate nations. It just emphasizes the fact that we are a collective, and as such, "inherit the world."

I don't, therefore, believe Israel as a nation inherits the world for its own specific nation. Rather, we all collectively inherit the earth, including all nations dedicated to Christianity. We don't see much of that anymore, but it has existed in history and may very well exist in the Millennium. I'm speaking of Christian nations, regardless of how Christian each and every individual in a nation is. When nations dedicate themselves to Christianity they are considered "holy" by God. And becoming generally a participant in the Church they do participate in the collective inheritance of the world.

God seems to have been interested, for whatever reason, in a distinction of many nations. This may be His interest in diversity, and this may be to prevent the consolidation of power in the hands of a few who could lead the whole astray.

Whatever the reason God promised Abraham *nations*--plural. And so each nation should have defensible boundaries, enclosing a land area that can be self-sufficient for its people--energy sources, food sources, water sources, and trade sources. There should be enough natural resources for industrial and commercial development. These are common sense issues. But it is plain that with respect to Israel there is little common sense in the Arab world. They simply want the Jewish State to perish!

I agree with much you have said here. I just don't find any "Christian nations" in either Testament. That they are sovereign nations with unique languages, customs and boundaries, is a given. This was a direct work of God at Babel. And these borders are set according to Israel (Deut.32:7-8). The Church is taken OUT OF the nations including the nation of Israel (Eph.2:15). The "Twain" in that verse is (1) the nation of Israel, and (2) the nations. The New Man that is made OUT OF these TWO is a new and heavenly creature - as diverse from the nations as night is from day. Even the great US of A, whose forefathers were Puritans and who tried to establish a nation based on Biblical principle, is a heathen country run by men who are servants of Satan. Don't confuse the Christian speak with the obelisks of Washington.

kyCyd
Jul 26th 2017, 03:53 PM
OK. I see. You are correct to certain degree. Before writing further. the reason that the seed o Isaac are everywhere is due to their not keeping the Law and turning to the idols of the heathen. That the seed of Isaac (or Jacob if you will) is dispersed over the whole earth is a chastisement. Deuteronomy 28:15-64 threatens;

15 "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
......
63 "And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone."

Israel are not strewed all over the earth because their Land is that big. They are dispersed among all nations because the broke the Covenant of Sinai.

As to Ishmael's seed, they are the Arabs and they are not widespread. Syria are Syrians and not seed of Ishmael. Iran are Persians and not seed of Ishmael. Egyptians are not Ishmaelites. Ishmael's seed make up Kuwait, some of Irak, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Emirates and Oman. They all have relatively small populations and do not occupy the Good Land. That is occupied by the sons of Canaan, one of Noah's grandsons, and the Philistines (Palastinians), sons of Cush (Genesis 10:14). Remember too that Ishmael, although he is not the son of Promise, had God's blessing, unlike the Canaanites who had His curse.

One last point that might help to clear things up. The Promises by the Prophets are that Israel will GATHERED FROM ALL NATIONS back to their Land. If the Land God gave to Abraham's earthly seed was more than this, then they would not be GATHERED OUT OF THEM (Deut.30:3, etc.)

Thanks for your take on who is in the land today. I try figuring it out as all those areas over there are all of circumcision, which was the covenant promise to Abraham. So going by that all those areas would be sons of Abraham. I realize Abraham had lots of sons, and am sure circumcised them all.

I also ran into this scripture and it sure seems fitting when looking at the Jewish people.

Deuteronomy 4:26-27 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

I realize too there are many sons of Abraham and that there was also Easu in the mix where those promises were too, but this was to Jacob. That is why I am wondering if the sons are already there in the land then. Judging that from a circumcised perspective and Israel you would have to say yes.

Tony P
Jul 26th 2017, 08:10 PM
Land promised to Israel to me includes the USA. I am using this verse of scripture to define that:


Joshua 1:3-4 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.


To me this means heading west to setting of the sun, was all the land given. To me this verse includes the west. Does anyone else see it that way or is it just me?

The concept of the globe is a modern one. The sunset in Israel is over the Mediterranean sea.

kyCyd
Jul 27th 2017, 12:13 PM
The concept of the globe is a modern one. The sunset in Israel is over the Mediterranean sea.

I did not realize it was a modern concept. At least then I am not the only one hahaha