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Just_a_man
Jul 28th 2017, 02:22 PM
Does your soul go to Heaven right after your body dies ?

TheDivineWatermark
Jul 28th 2017, 03:44 PM
2 Corinthians 5:1-8 speaks of being "unclothed" (that is, apart from ones body, upon death ) but nevertheless present with the Lord (that is, pertaining to believers).

The context of those verses being, we are eagerly yearning to "be clothed upon" (that is, immediately clothed upon with our glorified bodies, APART from having to die first... this is our earnest HOPE... but we are willing to die instead, if it be the Lord's will that we die before our Rapture occurs [v.4 refers to the [U]LIVING believers, at the time of our Rapture (1Cor15:53b; whereas 53a refers to "the dead in Christ")]... no one is really eagerly hoping/yearning to DIE [be "unclothed"], but we ARE eagerly yearning to be "clothed upon" [(receiving our glorified bodies) apart from having to die first])


Hope that helps. :)

Aijalon
Jul 28th 2017, 08:08 PM
Does your soul go to Heaven right after your body dies ?

Wherever Jesus is now, there your soul will be.

keck553
Jul 28th 2017, 08:31 PM
Does your soul go to Heaven right after your body dies ?

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Why wait to die?

percho
Jul 30th 2017, 10:26 PM
2 Corinthians 5:1-8 speaks of being "unclothed" (that is, apart from ones body, upon death ) but nevertheless present with the Lord (that is, pertaining to believers).

The context of those verses being, we are eagerly yearning to "be clothed upon" (that is, immediately clothed upon with our glorified bodies, APART from having to die first... this is our earnest HOPE... but we are willing to die instead, if it be the Lord's will that we die before our Rapture occurs [v.4 refers to the [U]LIVING believers, at the time of our Rapture (1Cor15:53b; whereas 53a refers to "the dead in Christ")]... no one is really eagerly hoping/yearning to DIE [be "unclothed"], but we ARE eagerly yearning to be "clothed upon" [(receiving our glorified bodies) apart from having to die first])


Hope that helps. :)

Is, "groan," in verses 2 and 4 the same, "groan," of Romans 8:23? What is being groaned for? What does verse 3 mean? Found when? When will we be clothed in our house from heaven? While dead are we still in our earthly house of tabernacle, yet it be dissolved, awaiting, the hope, the redemption of the body, the adoption?

Daniel567
Jul 31st 2017, 02:16 AM
Does your soul go to Heaven right after your body dies ?
Only if you are saved and "in Christ". The soul and spirit always remain together. Therefore Stephen said "Lord Jesus receive m spirit".

Aristarkos
Jul 31st 2017, 06:47 AM
Does your soul go to Heaven right after your body dies ?

No, when man dies, his soul dies, the general life force (spirit) goes back to God and the body decays. Even many Christians today believe the lie Satan told Eve: « Ye shall not surely die: » and think they have an immortal soul that flies to heaven to walk in the lanes of paradise and cheer before the throne. This idea is so embedded that even some Bible translations have been adapted to sustain this and if they aren't, people just read « begot » instead of « became ».

When God created Adam, it doesn't say He gave Adam a living soul, but Adam became a living soul. Being made originally to the image of God, we consist of body, soul and spirit. These three make man (1 Thes. 5:23). What Scripture understands with « soul » is quite easy to figure out with the help of a concordance.

Let's look at the 5 senses, the organs are part of the body but the senses themselves of the soul:

Deu 12:20 « When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. »

Psa 107:18 « Their soul abhorreth all manner of food; and they draw near unto the gates of death.*»

Pro 16:24 « Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones. »

There is much more to be found, but you'll get the idea. When we die our soul goes to the grave:

Job 33:22 « Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. »

Psa 30:3 « O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. »

Psa 89:48 « What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. »

Part of our believing in Christ is that in Him is aionic life:

Joh 11:25 « Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: »

Some try to read here they will not die if they believe in Christ, but that is not what it says. « shall live », i.e. will be resurrected at the promised time, at the end of the current aion.

Some use this verse:

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. »

to say that the soul lives on, but that is not what it says. The converted sinner will die believing he will be resurrected at the last day as Martha says:

Joh 11:24 « Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. »

Knowing we are going to die completely — no part of us is immortal — and believing Christ will resurrect us is admitting we need Christ to live. He who believes his immortal soul lives on rejects the redeeming of Christ because who needs a resurrection if one is immortal? Those who say that at the resurrection they will be given a body, should show where Scripture learns there are bodiless lifeforms. All creatures including the spiritual have bodies:

1Co 15:40 « There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. »

Aristarkos

percho
Jul 31st 2017, 04:19 PM
Only if you are saved and "in Christ". The soul and spirit always remain together. Therefore Stephen said "Lord Jesus receive m spirit".

Did not Jesus say the same thing? Luke 23:46 Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Where was his soul? Acts 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. πνεῦμά
Luke 23:46 πνεῦμά
Acts 2:27 ψυχήν

Trivalee
Jul 31st 2017, 04:39 PM
Wherever Jesus is now, there your soul will be.

And what happens to the spirit of the wicked at death? Where does it go?

Aijalon
Aug 1st 2017, 11:58 AM
And what happens to the spirit of the wicked at death? Where does it go?

I think that the wicked soul goes to "the pit". That may be an analogy of what the people of ancient times would have used as a waste dump. To be honest, I'm not sure. On an apologetic note though, I think it is better for us to reinforce the ideas of where a righteous soul does go, and focus on how we know it is a better place to be, rather than talk about metaphysical-death in terms analogous to physical reality. Keep it abstract.... :) Keep it metaphorical. :)

Trivalee
Aug 1st 2017, 12:21 PM
I think that the wicked soul goes to "the pit". That may be an analogy of what the people of ancient times would have used as a waste dump. To be honest, I'm not sure. On an apologetic note though, I think it is better for us to reinforce the ideas of where a righteous soul does go, and focus on how we know it is a better place to be, rather than talk about metaphysical-death in terms analogous to physical reality. Keep it abstract.... :) Keep it metaphorical. :)

Well, we have certainly confirmed that the soul/spirit of the righteous returns to God at death. I don't think it's out of place to discuss where the soul of the wicked goes to at death as well.

But thanks for trying...

Aristarkos
Aug 1st 2017, 12:22 PM
Well, we have certainly confirmed that the soul/spirit of the righteous returns to God at death. I don't think it's out of place to discuss where the soul of the wicked goes to at death as well.

But thanks for trying...

I must have missed that confirmation then, could you point me to it?

Aristarkos

percho
Aug 1st 2017, 07:16 PM
Well, we have certainly confirmed that the soul/spirit of the righteous returns to God at death. I don't think it's out of place to discuss where the soul of the wicked goes to at death as well.

But thanks for trying...

What does, soul/spirit, mean?

Trivalee
Aug 2nd 2017, 04:32 PM
What does, soul/spirit, mean?

Man is made of soul, spirit, and flesh. At death, the flesh rots away in the grave, and the soul/spirit returns to God. But to be honest, I'm not sure whether the soul is different from the spirit or whether they are the same, but used interchangeably?

percho
Aug 2nd 2017, 08:37 PM
Man is made of soul, spirit, and flesh. At death, the flesh rots away in the grave, and the soul/spirit returns to God. But to be honest, I'm not sure whether the soul is different from the spirit or whether they are the same, but used interchangeably?

Man is made from the earth. God breathed into that made from the earth the breath of lives, spirit, and what was made from the earth became, living soul. That is it began at the moment it became living to gather data through the five senses.

At death the spirit returns to God who gave it the body returns to the earth and the soul no longer gathers data. The soul is natural as is the body.

In these verses from 1 Cor 15

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The word natural there is ψυχικός psychikos and comes from the word for soul. From ψυχή (G5590)

The soul isn't spiritual but natural.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

dan p
Aug 3rd 2017, 12:48 AM
Is, "groan," in verses 2 and 4 the same, "groan," of Romans 8:23? What is being groaned for? What does verse 3 mean? Found when? When will we be clothed in our house from heaven? While dead are we still in our earthly house of tabernacle, yet it be dissolved, awaiting, the hope, the redemption of the body, the adoption?


Hi and the GROAN / STENAZO is the same Greek word in verse 4 and in the Present tense of always in CONTINUOUS ACTION our entire life or until we live !!

Read 2 Cor 5:8 and see !!

dan p

jesusinmylife
Aug 3rd 2017, 01:33 AM
Is, "groan," in verses 2 and 4 the same, "groan," of Romans 8:23? What is being groaned for? What does verse 3 mean? Found when? When will we be clothed in our house from heaven? While dead are we still in our earthly house of tabernacle, yet it be dissolved, awaiting, the hope, the redemption of the body, the adoption?

I found these notes on Bible Gateway from the Reformation Study Bible Notes:

5:2 we groan. Sighing with frustration at the limitations of this present life, with its sin, weakness, and corruption (Rom. 8:22, 23).
5:3 naked. Without a body.
5:4 Paul longs for the resurrection body, free of the weaknesses and imperfections of this life.

what is mortal. Our present physical bodies.

swallowed up by life. The new, heavenly life to come will overtake our present existence. See “Resurrection and Glorification” at 1 Cor. 15:21.

And these notes from the ESV Study Bible Notes:

2 Cor. 5:1 The tent that is our earthly home refers to present human bodies that will die. Have refers to the future resurrection, and the building from God … eternal in the heavens refers to the resurrection body believers will receive on the last day (cf. 1 Thess. 4:13–18; Rev. 21:1–22:5). The tent analogy was quite apt since Paul made tents while living in Corinth (Acts 18:3), and the Corinthians likely sold tents to sailors or used them for housing visitors attending the Isthmian Games.

2 Cor. 5:2–4 Paul groans for the resurrection (i.e., being further clothed; cf. v. 1) in order to not be found naked or unclothed, which likely refers to the intermediate state in which believers’ spirits are with God but they do not yet enjoy their resurrected bodies.

Daniel567
Aug 3rd 2017, 04:09 AM
Where was his soul? Acts 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades
The soul and spirit are inseparable, so when Christ's soul was in Hades, so was His spirit, but for only three days and three nights -- hence "thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades".

As to commending His spirit, Jesus was voluntarily departing His body, not dying at the choice of the Romans. But the Father already knew that the spirit and soul of Christ would be in Hades before He ascended to Heaven with the saints who were also in Hades awaiting His resurrection.

Daniel567
Aug 3rd 2017, 04:14 AM
No, when man dies, his soul dies, the general life force (spirit) goes back to God and the body decays.
You will find no such thing in the New Testament. Man is spirit, soul, and body, and physical death is simply the separation of the soul and spirit from the body, NOT the annihilation of the soul or spirit. That is false doctrine (as is Soul Sleep), and it is proved by the statement that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is in Heaven and very much alive, and so are the souls and spirits of the saints.

percho
Aug 3rd 2017, 05:47 AM
The soul and spirit are inseparable, so when Christ's soul was in Hades, so was His spirit, but for only three days and three nights -- hence "thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades".

As to commending His spirit, Jesus was voluntarily departing His body, not dying at the choice of the Romans. But the Father already knew that the spirit and soul of Christ would be in Hades before He ascended to Heaven with the saints who were also in Hades awaiting His resurrection.

and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46 YLT

So when Jesus breathed forth the spirit to the hands of his Father, it took three days and three nights for the spirit to get to the Father? You don't think that the very moment he breathed forth the spirit to the Father, the spirit wasn't immediately in the hands of the Father?

Was Jesus who had been born of the virgin Mary in that very instant dead? Dead for our sins?

Where was his body at the very moment he breathed forth his spirit to the hands of his Father?

David the prophet, prophesying, of the Christ being resurrected from the dead, being raised from the dead said, "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hebrew Sheol, Greek Hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. The soul would not be left in Hades, neither would his flesh see corruption because of the resurrection, being raised from the dead.
Paul in Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

His soul was dead in Hades, awaiting resurrection.
His body was dead, in a borrowed tomb, awaiting resurrection.
His spirit, the life of him, was in the hands of the Father.

This is in contrast to David the prophet, who on the day of Pentecost, fifty days after Jesus had been raised from the dead was according to Peter speaking by the Holy Spirit: he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. And according to Acts 13:36 saw corruption: Where was the spirit which had given life to the once living soul, David and his once non corrupted body? According to the Word of God with God who had given it to David. The soul of David, fifty days after Christ had led captivity captive, was left in Sheol/Hades.

Daniel567
Aug 3rd 2017, 06:22 AM
Well, we have certainly confirmed that the soul/spirit of the righteous returns to God at death. I don't think it's out of place to discuss where the soul of the wicked goes to at death as well.

But thanks for trying...
Just one place -- Hades. Ultimate destiny -- Hell (the Lake of Fire).

Daniel567
Aug 3rd 2017, 06:28 AM
His soul was dead in Hades, awaiting resurrection.
No. Christ was busy preaching to the spirits and prison, so His soul was not "dead" as you suggest. He had already made His soul an offering for sin on the Cross, but in Hades Christ was very much alive. And His soul and spirit were inseparable. There is no Scripture that indicates that the soul and spirit are separated after death, since the spirit resides in the soul. However, because the spirit is more important spiritually than the soul, we read of the spirit going to Heaven or to God.

Trivalee
Aug 3rd 2017, 11:49 AM
Man is made from the earth. God breathed into that made from the earth the breath of lives, spirit, and what was made from the earth became, living soul. That is it began at the moment it became living to gather data through the five senses.

At death the spirit returns to God who gave it the body returns to the earth and the soul no longer gathers data. The soul is natural as is the body.

In these verses from 1 Cor 15

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The word natural there is ψυχικός psychikos and comes from the word for soul. From ψυχή (G5590)

The soul isn't spiritual but natural.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

David seems to believe otherwise.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Moreover, the "soul that sinneth shall die Ezek 18:20" refers to the second death (as in the Lake of fire) not physical death.

Trivalee
Aug 3rd 2017, 11:55 AM
The soul and spirit are inseparable, so when Christ's soul was in Hades, so was His spirit, but for only three days and three nights -- hence "thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades".

As to commending His spirit, Jesus was voluntarily departing His body, not dying at the choice of the Romans. But the Father already knew that the spirit and soul of Christ would be in Hades before He ascended to Heaven with the saints who were also in Hades awaiting His resurrection.

I have always been confused whether soul and spirit are the same or separate entities? You seem to believe they are synonymous, is that correct?

Trivalee
Aug 3rd 2017, 12:02 PM
Just one place -- Hades. Ultimate destiny -- Hell (the Lake of Fire).

But nobody goes to hell fire before the GWTJ, so presumably the wicked are presently in Hades awaiting the Second resurrection when they will be judged and subsequently cast into hell fire/lake of fire and brimstone. I suppose this is the proper sequence?

CadyandZoe
Aug 3rd 2017, 12:27 PM
You will find no such thing in the New Testament. Man is spirit, soul, and body, and physical death is simply the separation of the soul and spirit from the body, NOT the annihilation of the soul or spirit. That is false doctrine (as is Soul Sleep), and it is proved by the statement that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is in Heaven and very much alive, and so are the souls and spirits of the saints.

But Paul doesn't say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Here is what he actually says,

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

The way you have worded it makes the two things appear to be identical, that is, whensoever I happen to be absent from the body then I am at home with the Lord. But did Paul mean to equate the two? Was he saying that when we die, our souls/spirits rise to be with the Lord? I don't think so.

Many Christians, including myself, have gotten faked out by Paul's tendency to abbreviate his arguments. When he says, "we prefer to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord", our minds automatically picture a contrast between life in a body here on earth as compared to life without a body living with Jesus in his home in heaven. After all, Paul talks about being absent from the body, right? What we miss, though, is the fact that being "at home" also requires a body.

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Notice the actual comparison and contrast Paul is making: he compares our earthly tent with a building from God.

Earthly tent:
A tent is meant to be a temporary abode.
A tent can be dismantled or "torn down."
A tent is made "with hands" (implied) e.g. human reproduction
We groan in this tent and long to be clothed with our dwelling in heaven
We are mortal in this tent.

Building from God:
A building from God is meant to be permanent, being eternal in the heavens.
A building from God is not intended to be dismantled, and torn down.
A building from God is a house made without hands, e.g. a supernaturally generated body.
We long to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven
When we are clothed with our dwelling from heaven, what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Lacking a body:
Being naked represents lacking a body.
We don't want to be found naked.
We suffer and groan in this body, so that we will not be found naked, i.e. without a body, later.

absent from the body
Paul wants to be absent from the body
Paul doesn't want to be found naked.
Therefore, being absent from the body is not lacking a body.
To be absent from the body is to have been given a building from God.

at home with the Lord.
The topic of Paul's discourse is our "home", whether we live in a temporary tent, or a permanent building from God.
The Lord also has a "home", a permanent building from God, i.e. an immortal body.
Therefore, to be at "home" with the Lord means to have a "home" like the "home" Jesus has.

Therefore, when Paul says,

[we] prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Paul means to say,

[we] prefer rather to be absent from our temporary, mortal tent and to be with the Lord in a building from God, which is permanent and immortal. Whether we are in heaven or on earth doesn't matter as long as we are with the Lord wherever he is located and we are not found naked, i.e. lacking a body. Going bodiless up to heaven is the last thing we would want.

Brother Mark
Aug 3rd 2017, 12:53 PM
But Paul doesn't say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Here is what he actually says,

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Verse 6 clears up what Paul is saying.

2 Cor 5:6-8
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord — 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight — 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
NASB

While we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord according to verse 6. Thus, when he says we are absent from the body and home with the Lord in verse 8, he means it exactly the way PB wrote it, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord the same as to be in the body is to be absent from the Lord.

CadyandZoe
Aug 3rd 2017, 01:10 PM
Verse 6 clears up what Paul is saying.I disagree. Verse 6 does NOT clear up what Paul is saying. Verses 3 and 4 clears up what Paul is saying and disabuses the reader from the notion that being absent from the body means living without a body, which is not what he means or prefers.

we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed,

Being absent from the body doesn't mean being without a body, i.e. a bodiless soul, because while Paul prefers to be absent from the body, he does NOT prefer to be without a body, i.e. to be naked.

Brother Mark
Aug 3rd 2017, 01:14 PM
I disagree. Verse 6 does NOT clear up what Paul is saying. Verses 3 and 4 clears up what Paul is saying and disabuses the reader from the notion that being absent from the body means living without a body, which is not what he means or prefers.

we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed,

Being absent from the body doesn't mean being without a body, i.e. a bodiless soul, because while Paul prefers to be absent from the body, he does NOT prefer to be without a body, i.e. to be naked.

He is speaking of the earthly body in vs 6. And states that so long as we are in that earthly body, we are absent from the Lord. But in vs 8, to be absent from that body is to be present with the Lord. Vs 6 and vs 8 are compared and opposites to make the point very clear exactly like what PB stated.

JAG__
Aug 3rd 2017, 01:34 PM
Verse 6 clears up what Paul is saying.

2 Cor 5:6-8
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at
home in the body we are absent from the Lord — 7 for we walk by faith, not
by sight — 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent
from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
NASB

While we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord according to verse 6.
Thus, when he says we are absent from the body and home with the Lord in
verse 8, he means it exactly the way PB wrote it, to be absent from the body
is to be present with the Lord the same as to be in the body is to be absent
from the Lord.

Amen to all that, and amen to that interpretation too. Its clear and obvious
that when Paul was writing those words he believed that if he had died
in the next few moments that his "real self" (ie his spirit/soul) would have
instantly gone to be with the Lord. So:

♦ in the body is to be absent from the Lord

♦ absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

CadyandZoe
Aug 3rd 2017, 01:44 PM
He is speaking of the earthly body in vs 6. And states that so long as we are in that earthly body, we are absent from the Lord. But in vs 8, to be absent from that body is to be present with the Lord. Vs 6 and vs 8 are compared and opposites to make the point very clear exactly like what PB stated.And why ignore what verse 3 and 4 say? I don't get that.

Brother Mark
Aug 3rd 2017, 02:16 PM
And why ignore what verse 3 and 4 say? I don't get that.

I don't. Vs 1-4 don't change my theology at all. We will be clothed and with Him. Just as the thief was with Jesus in paradise, clothed.

Trivalee
Aug 3rd 2017, 09:02 PM
Amen to all that, and amen to that interpretation too. Its clear and obvious
that when Paul was writing those words he believed that if he had died
in the next few moments that his "real self" (ie his spirit/soul) would have
instantly gone to be with the Lord. So:

♦ in the body is to be absent from the Lord

♦ absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

I'm afraid I have not really researched this topic and wouldn't want to make a fool of myself, lol. That said if we are absent from the Lord while in this body (flesh), what about our indwelling Holy Spirit? Where does he fit in?

percho
Aug 4th 2017, 05:50 AM
I'm afraid I have not really researched this topic and wouldn't want to make a fool of myself, lol. That said if we are absent from the Lord while in this body (flesh), what about our indwelling Holy Spirit? Where does he fit in?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Romans 8:11
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

Christ was put to death in the flesh.
Christ was quickened by the Spirit.

When was the mortal body of Christ quickened by the spirit?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead ----- Who is the, "him." spoken of?

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him (Jesus the Christ the Son of the living God) do believe in God, (The Father) that raised him (Jesus the Son) up from the dead, and gave him (Jesus the Son) glory (And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.); that your faith and hope might be in God. ----- What was the glory that the Father glorified the Son with?

John 7:35 YLT and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

God the Father, by his Spirit, raised Jesus the Son, quickened him. giving him glory, glorified Him. - Thus - This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33 NKJV

Daniel567
Aug 4th 2017, 06:32 AM
I have always been confused whether soul and spirit are the same or separate entities? You seem to believe they are synonymous, is that correct?
In a manner of speaking. The spirit is within the soul (the person), and they are the immaterial components of men. However, only the spirits of those possessing the Holy Spirit are alive and capable of communicating with God. And from God's perspective, the spirit takes precedence over the soul.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

Trivalee
Aug 4th 2017, 09:03 PM
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Romans 8:11
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

Christ was put to death in the flesh.
Christ was quickened by the Spirit.

When was the mortal body of Christ quickened by the spirit?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead ----- Who is the, "him." spoken of?

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him (Jesus the Christ the Son of the living God) do believe in God, (The Father) that raised him (Jesus the Son) up from the dead, and gave him (Jesus the Son) glory (And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.); that your faith and hope might be in God. ----- What was the glory that the Father glorified the Son with?

John 7:35 YLT and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

God the Father, by his Spirit, raised Jesus the Son, quickened him. giving him glory, glorified Him. - Thus - This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33 NKJV

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Trivalee
Aug 4th 2017, 09:10 PM
In a manner of speaking. The spirit is within the soul (the person), and they are the immaterial components of men. However, only the spirits of those possessing the Holy Spirit are alive and capable of communicating with God. And from God's perspective, the spirit takes precedence over the soul.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

Very clear, thank you.

percho
Aug 4th 2017, 11:49 PM
In a manner of speaking. The spirit is within the soul (the person), and they are the immaterial components of men. However, only the spirits of those possessing the Holy Spirit are alive and capable of communicating with God. And from God's perspective, the spirit takes precedence over the soul.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

Lev 17:11 Darby for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.
NASB ‘For the [fn] (Literally soul) life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the [fn] (Literally soul) life that makes atonement.’

NASB Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [fn]being. Literally soul.

God did not put a soul in man. God breathed, spirit into man and man became, living soul.

JAG__
Aug 5th 2017, 12:00 AM
I'm afraid I have not really researched this topic and wouldn't want to make a fool of myself, lol. That said if we are absent from the
Lord while in this body (flesh), what about our indwelling Holy Spirit? Where does he fit in?


♦ In the body is to be absent from the Lord . . .

♦ Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord . . .

. . . means:


♦ In the body is to be absent from the Lord (in the sense of not being with Him in Heaven)

♦ Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (in the sense of the soul/spirit being with the Lord in Heaven)

In either case the Holy Spirit is always permanently with believers whether we are on the Earth or in Heaven. The Holy Spirit never
leaves us. I know of no Bible text that teaches the Holy Spirit leaves us when we enter Heaven. He may be with us there in a different
way than He is now with us here on Earth ? --- we'll have to wait till we get home to find out 'bout that, imo.

ross3421
Aug 5th 2017, 02:34 AM
There is much misunderstanding about what a soul is.


The soul is part of the body. The soul is part of the body whe re in our spirit resides. Thus body and soul goes to the grave

Trivalee
Aug 5th 2017, 04:35 PM
♦ In the body is to be absent from the Lord . . .

♦ Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord . . .

. . . means:


♦ In the body is to be absent from the Lord (in the sense of not being with Him in Heaven)

♦ Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (in the sense of the soul/spirit being with the Lord in Heaven)

In either case the Holy Spirit is always permanently with believers whether we are on the Earth or in Heaven. The Holy Spirit never
leaves us. I know of no Bible text that teaches the Holy Spirit leaves us when we enter Heaven. He may be with us there in a different
way than He is now with us here on Earth ? --- we'll have to wait till we get home to find out 'bout that, imo.

But can we really say we are with the Lord when we are yet to receive our spiritual bodies? I accept that our spirits go to God at death, but there's no interaction until our spirits merge with our spiritual body, isn't it?

JAG__
Aug 5th 2017, 08:21 PM
`
But can we really say we are with the Lord when we are yet to receive our spiritual bodies?

I accept that our spirits go to God at death, but there's no interaction until our spirits merge
with our spiritual body, isn't it?
`


Here is my solution to your question/issue.

When you die, what will be your actual experience? Here are your choices:

(1) You will be immediately conscious with the Lord as a bodiless soul/spirit.

(2) You will experience Soul Sleep (or if your prefer deadness) while you wait for the
Resurrection and you will not be conscious until you experience the Resurrection and
receive your glorified body.


If you pick (1) then Your next conscious moment is going to be with the Lord.

If you pick (2) then Your next conscious moment is going to be with the Lord.

Take your pick.

You can flip a coin if you want to and you will get the identical same experienced results,
because either way Your next conscious moment is going to be with the Lord.

Just for argument's sake, lets say you are correct and that (2) "soul sleep" is the correct view.

And furthermore lets project that its going to be 25,000 years from the time you die until the
Resurrection where you get your new glorified body.

Or if you want to, you can make it 10,000,000 years that you have to wait until you
experience the Resurrection and get your glorified body.

It doesn't matter how short or how long you project the time to be --- that statement bolded
red is always going to be precisely true, namely Your next conscious moment is going to
be with the Lord.


____________



To use your word "interaction" in association with my word "conscious", we can say the following
with absolute certainty:

Your next conscious moment of interaction will be with the Lord whether you pick (1) or (2).

Does knowing that make you feel better? :)


`

Daniel567
Aug 5th 2017, 09:03 PM
I'm afraid I have not really researched this topic and wouldn't want to make a fool of myself, lol. That said if we are absent from the Lord while in this body (flesh), what about our indwelling Holy Spirit? Where does he fit in?
Trivalee,
It is really not that complicated. Christ lives within every believer (in Spirit) and that does not change. However when Paul talks about being present with the Lord, he is talking about the Christian being in Heaven, where Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father.

When Stephen said, *Lord Jesus, receive my spirit* he was looking at Christ standing at the right hand of the Father. So the standing up of Christ for Stephen could be deemed a welcome with the Lord standing to receive him. The very next moment, Stephen died and his body was taken for burial by the other disciples. But where were his soul and spirit (Q) The answer should be obvious.

Trivalee
Aug 6th 2017, 07:49 PM
But can we really say we are with the Lord when we are yet to receive our spiritual bodies? I accept that our spirits go to God at death, but there's no interaction until our spirits merge with our spiritual body, isn't it?

Can't say I have any reason to dispute your point. If anything, it agrees with my earlier asserting that there's no interaction between the spirit and Jesus until it receives the spiritual body.

Trivalee
Aug 6th 2017, 07:59 PM
Here is my solution to your question/issue.

When you die, what will be your actual experience? Here are your choices:

(1) You will be immediately conscious with the Lord as a bodiless soul/spirit.

(2) You will experience Soul Sleep (or if your prefer deadness) while you wait for the
Resurrection and you will not be conscious until you experience the Resurrection and
receive your glorified body.


If you pick (1) then Your next conscious moment is going to be with the Lord.

If you pick (2) then Your next conscious moment is going to be with the Lord.

Take your pick.

You can flip a coin if you want to and you will get the identical same experienced results,
because either way Your next conscious moment is going to be with the Lord.

Just for argument's sake, lets say you are correct and that (2) "soul sleep" is the correct view.

And furthermore lets project that its going to be 25,000 years from the time you die until the
Resurrection where you get your new glorified body.

Or if you want to, you can make it 10,000,000 years that you have to wait until you
experience the Resurrection and get your glorified body.

It doesn't matter how short or how long you project the time to be --- that statement bolded
red is always going to be precisely true, namely Your next conscious moment is going to
be with the Lord.


____________



To use your word "interaction" in association with my word "conscious", we can say the following
with absolute certainty:

Your next conscious moment of interaction will be with the Lord whether you pick (1) or (2).

Does knowing that make you feel better? :)


`

Can't say I have any reason to dispute your point. If anything, it agrees with my earlier asserting that there's no interaction between the spirit and Jesus until it receives the spiritual body.

Trivalee
Aug 6th 2017, 08:07 PM
Trivalee,
It is really not that complicated. Christ lives within every believer (in Spirit) and that does not change. However when Paul talks about being present with the Lord, he is talking about the Christian being in Heaven, where Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father.

When Stephen said, *Lord Jesus, receive my spirit* he was looking at Christ standing at the right hand of the Father. So the standing up of Christ for Stephen could be deemed a welcome with the Lord standing to receive him. The very next moment, Stephen died and his body was taken for burial by the other disciples. But where were his soul and spirit (Q) The answer should be obvious.

I've just had this conversation with JAG__

While Stephen's spirit went to God, there is no evidence that it interacts with the Lord until it receives spiritual body at the resurrection, is there?

Daniel567
Aug 6th 2017, 08:18 PM
While Stephen's spirit went to God, there is no evidence that it interacts with the Lord until it receives spiritual body at the resurrection, is there?
What exactly do you think the saints do in Heaven OTHER THAN interact with the Lord? No one is sleeping in Heaven, but all are worshiping and communing in Heaven.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10).

Trivalee
Aug 6th 2017, 09:16 PM
What exactly do you think the saints do in Heaven OTHER THAN interact with the Lord? No one is sleeping in Heaven, but all are worshiping and communing in Heaven.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10).

I don't think that assumption is correct. Being under the altar to me suggests a place of waiting....until they are not only avenged but most importantly, receive their spiritual bodies.

JAG__
Aug 6th 2017, 11:28 PM
Can't say I have any reason to dispute your point. If anything, it agrees with my earlier asserting
that there's no interaction between the spirit and Jesus until it receives the spiritual body.

My main point is that it doesn't make any difference either way, with regard to
what you actually experience, because your next conscious moment is going to be
with the Lord whether you choose (1) or (2)

(1) You will be immediately conscious with the Lord as a bodiless soul/spirit.

(2) You will experience Soul Sleep (or if your prefer deadness) while you wait for the
Resurrection and you will not be conscious until you experience the Resurrection and
receive your glorified body.

_________


By the way, regarding (1) up there:
How do you know that God does not give temporary bodies to Christians who die
so they can interact during the Intermediate State, while they are waiting for their
permanent glorified bodies?

Our present bodies are made from dirt. So how hard would it be for God to get up
some dirt? How hard do you think it would be for God to obtain a few trillion tons of
dirt? How much dirt do you think is laying around on the trillions of planets within
the Universe? God spoke the Universe into existence. It'd be no problem whatsoever
for Him to speak a few million tons of dirt into existence and then provide us with
temporary bodies to be used during the Intermediate State. And if not dirt, then
something else could be used to make us temporary bodies.

That would be very easy for Him to do and that would not violate any of His laws
or principles and moreover it is a reasonable suggestion because why would God
want His children to "waste precious learning interaction time" by laying
unconscious for thousands of years during the Intermediate State?

What purpose would laying unconscious for thousands of years serve?
Obviously no good learning purpose at all.

To just "lay there unconscious" and "not interacting" would be a huge waste
of precious time when they could interacting and learning valuable lessons.

Why would God allow that kind of waste? Waste of valuable precious learning time?

Sure that's speculation, but its reasonable speculation and it makes more sense
than the notion that God allows His saints to lay unconscious for thousands and
thousands of years doing absolutely NOTHING of value while valuable learning
and valuable interaction time is being thereby wasted. Do you think such a
huge waste of that which is valuable, is characteristic of God as He is
revealed in the Bible?

___________

~ ~ and even if we don't get temporary bodies ~ ~
How would you like to have to take the Bible and compellingly demonstrate
that souls without bodies cannot interact with the Lord and with each other?

Give me a Bible verse that actually says that. :)

I don't need your inference from a verse. Your inference is not the same as the
verse actually saying that souls without bodies cannot be conscious and
cannot interact with the Lord and with other folks in Heaven.

If you don't like the speculation that we might get temporary bodies, then
scrap that idea, and tell me why God cannot or will not make it possible for
bodiless souls to interact with the Lord Jesus and other Christians in
Heaven during the Intermediate State, while we wait for our new
glorified bodies.

__________


As I read the 2 Corinthians 5: 6-8 passage, where Paul says absent from
the body is to be present with the Lord --- I have to believe that Paul
believed that when he died he would immediately be with the Lord
and be conscious and be interacting with Him.

I do NOT get the impression that what Paul was really saying in
2 Corinthians 5 is that he believed this:

"Well, when I die I am going to have to lay unconscious all during
the Intermediate State until I finally one day, and only God knows
how many thousands of years that will be, before I finally get to
be conscious and to be interacting with the Lord."

Is that what you think Paul meant by "absent from the body present
with the Lord."?

By the way, :) on your lights, Paul has been laying there unconscious
now for over 2000 years. Right?

__________


And what about Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration? Were they
unconscious? Were they interacting with the Lord Jesus? The Bible
says they were "talking with Jesus." How do you explain those two
dead people up there talking with the Lord?

`

CadyandZoe
Aug 7th 2017, 01:14 AM
I don't think that assumption is correct. Being under the altar to me suggests a place of waiting....until they are not only avenged but most importantly, receive their spiritual bodies.

It's metaphorical anyway. There aren't literally souls under the alter right? It's like when Paul says the blood of Abel cries out from the ground. These are powerful, profound truths, spoken using symbolic language. Or am I wrong?

Daniel567
Aug 7th 2017, 02:21 AM
It's metaphorical anyway. There aren't literally souls under the alter right? It's like when Paul says the blood of Abel cries out from the ground. These are powerful, profound truths, spoken using symbolic language. Or am I wrong?
Well you are dead wrong. Metaphorical people do not cry out to God. And this totally demolishes the idea that the saints do not interact with God in Heaven.

Christians need to be able to discern things which are purely metaphorical and those which are not. Even the blood of Abel cried out to God in that it was a stark reminder of innocent blood having been shed and demanding justice.

Daniel567
Aug 7th 2017, 02:23 AM
I don't think that assumption is correct. Being under the altar to me suggests a place of waiting....until they are not only avenged but most importantly, receive their spiritual bodies.
You have missed the point and gone off on a tangent. You said there was no interaction of the saints in Heaven with God. Scripture proved you wrong, but you did not acknowledge that. The issue of spiritual bodies and resurrection bodies is immaterial.

CadyandZoe
Aug 7th 2017, 11:51 AM
Well you are dead wrong. Metaphorical people do not cry out to God.Yes, they do. They cry out to God metaphorically.


And this totally demolishes the idea that the saints do not interact with God in Heaven.Follow the evidence.


Christians need to be able to discern things which are purely metaphorical and those which are not. Even the blood of Abel cried out to God in that it was a stark reminder of innocent blood having been shed and demanding justice.And when have you ever heard blood cry out?

Look, I believe there is a reason why the metaphor has the souls crying out from under the alter. We are invited to ask why the alter? What does the alter represent? And why not above, on, or to the side of the alter? Why beneath?

Trivalee
Aug 8th 2017, 05:18 PM
It's metaphorical anyway. There aren't literally souls under the alter right? It's like when Paul says the blood of Abel cries out from the ground. These are powerful, profound truths, spoken using symbolic language. Or am I wrong?

The truth is that it's all a guessing game. Nobody knows the truth for sure. So yes, you might be right or wrong :)

Trivalee
Aug 8th 2017, 05:33 PM
My main point is that it doesn't make any difference either way, with regard to
what you actually experience, because your next conscious moment is going to be
with the Lord whether you choose (1) or (2)

(1) You will be immediately conscious with the Lord as a bodiless soul/spirit.

(2) You will experience Soul Sleep (or if your prefer deadness) while you wait for the
Resurrection and you will not be conscious until you experience the Resurrection and
receive your glorified body.

_________


By the way, regarding (1) up there:
How do you know that God does not give temporary bodies to Christians who die
so they can interact during the Intermediate State, while they are waiting for their
permanent glorified bodies?

Our present bodies are made from dirt. So how hard would it be for God to get up
some dirt? How hard do you think it would be for God to obtain a few trillion tons of
dirt? How much dirt do you think is laying around on the trillions of planets within
the Universe? God spoke the Universe into existence. It'd be no problem whatsoever
for Him to speak a few million tons of dirt into existence and then provide us with
temporary bodies to be used during the Intermediate State. And if not dirt, then
something else could be used to make us temporary bodies.

That would be very easy for Him to do and that would not violate any of His laws
or principles and moreover it is a reasonable suggestion because why would God
want His children to "waste precious learning interaction time" by laying
unconscious for thousands of years during the Intermediate State?

What purpose would laying unconscious for thousands of years serve?
Obviously no good learning purpose at all.

To just "lay there unconscious" and "not interacting" would be a huge waste
of precious time when they could interacting and learning valuable lessons.

Why would God allow that kind of waste? Waste of valuable precious learning time?

Sure that's speculation, but its reasonable speculation and it makes more sense
than the notion that God allows His saints to lay unconscious for thousands and
thousands of years doing absolutely NOTHING of value while valuable learning
and valuable interaction time is being thereby wasted. Do you think such a
huge waste of that which is valuable, is characteristic of God as He is
revealed in the Bible?

___________

~ ~ and even if we don't get temporary bodies ~ ~
How would you like to have to take the Bible and compellingly demonstrate
that souls without bodies cannot interact with the Lord and with each other?

Give me a Bible verse that actually says that. :)

I don't need your inference from a verse. Your inference is not the same as the
verse actually saying that souls without bodies cannot be conscious and
cannot interact with the Lord and with other folks in Heaven.

If you don't like the speculation that we might get temporary bodies, then
scrap that idea, and tell me why God cannot or will not make it possible for
bodiless souls to interact with the Lord Jesus and other Christians in
Heaven during the Intermediate State, while we wait for our new
glorified bodies.

__________


As I read the 2 Corinthians 5: 6-8 passage, where Paul says absent from
the body is to be present with the Lord --- I have to believe that Paul
believed that when he died he would immediately be with the Lord
and be conscious and be interacting with Him.

I do NOT get the impression that what Paul was really saying in
2 Corinthians 5 is that he believed this:

"Well, when I die I am going to have to lay unconscious all during
the Intermediate State until I finally one day, and only God knows
how many thousands of years that will be, before I finally get to
be conscious and to be interacting with the Lord."

Is that what you think Paul meant by "absent from the body present
with the Lord."?

By the way, :) on your lights, Paul has been laying there unconscious
now for over 2000 years. Right?

__________


And what about Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration? Were they
unconscious? Were they interacting with the Lord Jesus? The Bible
says they were "talking with Jesus." How do you explain those two
dead people up there talking with the Lord?

So long as the scriptures didn't tell us, as much as your views above are plausible, they remain no more than conjecture. God is beyond time. A thousand years before Him is like a day and vice versa. So I wouldn't worry my head about how long the dead have to wait until they receive their spiritual bodies.

I believe that Moses and Elijah were specifically quickened for the purpose of the transfiguration. They would have returned to their former state to await the resurrection after seen to be interacting with Jesus.

Trivalee
Aug 8th 2017, 06:02 PM
You have missed the point and gone off on a tangent. You said there was no interaction of the saints in Heaven with God. Scripture proved you wrong, but you did not acknowledge that. The issue of spiritual bodies and resurrection bodies is immaterial.

On the contrary, my points are relative and not an attempt to digress. Before you claim to have all the answers, ever wondered why the souls are under the altar? The angels that worship and interact daily with the Triune God are not contained under the altar, are they?

Moses and Elijah were specifically quickened for the purpose of the transfiguration. I hope you don't believe they retained the immortal bodies they had when they were on the mount with Jesus? The reason I mention this is to remind you that God causes some things to happen e.g. (the souls under the altar asking for vengeance) for some specific reasons. It doesn't mean those things occur daily.

Daniel567
Aug 8th 2017, 06:17 PM
On the contrary, my points are relative and not an attempt to digress. Before you claim to have all the answers, ever wondered why the souls are under the altar? The angels that worship and interact daily with the Triune God are not contained under the altar, are they?

Moses and Elijah were specifically quickened for the purpose of the transfiguration. I hope you don't believe they retained the immortal bodies they had when they were on the mount with Jesus? The reason I mention this is to remind you that God causes some things to happen e.g. (the souls under the altar asking for vengeance) for some specific reasons. It doesn't mean those things occur daily.
Let us stay on point. Do the souls of departed saints interact with God in Heaven? ABSOLUTELY. End of discussion.

JAG__
Aug 8th 2017, 09:24 PM
So long as the scriptures didn't tell us, as much as your views above are plausible,
they remain no more than conjecture. God is beyond time. A thousand years before
Him is like a day and vice versa. So I wouldn't worry my head about how long the
dead have to wait until they receive their spiritual bodies.

Thanks for the reply, Trivalee,

♦ And thanks for reading my post and considering it.

♦ Isn't it true that your position is also conjecture? You do not have
a specific text that specifically states your view. Instead you draw
inferences from certain texts.

inference

: a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning

And your inferences, like mine, are highly subjective and strongly
laced with your biases. You, like me, are biased in favor of your
chosen position.

Therefore your, "As long as the Scripture didn't tell us" fully applies to your
held position too. Yes?



I believe that Moses and Elijah were specifically quickened for the purpose of the
transfiguration. They would have returned to their former state to await the
resurrection after seen to be interacting with Jesus.

Talk about conjecture! :) What do you call that? I'd call that pure undiluted
conjecture. There isn't a shred of Biblical evidence that even suggests that
Moses and Elijah were supernaturally brought back to life for the purpose
of participating in the Transfiguration, and then supernaturally returned to
to the dead to await the Resurrection. You invented that out of pure blue
sky. And why did you do that? Answer: Because you NEED that conjecture
in order to keep holding your chosen position.

All that up there is just friendly argumentation between me and you. We're
just sharing our thoughts with each other on this issue. I feel certain we
agree on all the truly important Christian doctrines.

Long live Christendom.

God Bless.

percho
Aug 9th 2017, 05:15 AM
Let us stay on point. Do the souls of departed saints interact with God in Heaven? ABSOLUTELY. End of discussion.

And white robes were given unto every one of them (souls) ; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Interact? OK!

Trivalee
Aug 10th 2017, 05:59 PM
Talk about conjecture! :) What do you call that? I'd call that pure undiluted
conjecture. There isn't a shred of Biblical evidence that even suggests that
Moses and Elijah were supernaturally brought back to life for the purpose
of participating in the Transfiguration, and then supernaturally returned to
to the dead to await the Resurrection. You invented that out of pure blue
sky. And why did you do that? Answer: Because you NEED that conjecture
in order to keep holding your chosen position.

All that up there is just friendly argumentation between me and you. We're
just sharing our thoughts with each other on this issue. I feel certain we
agree on all the truly important Christian doctrines.

Long live Christendom.

God Bless.

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

Reading the account of the Transfiguration above, is there anything that leads you to believe that what the disciples saw was a *vision*? If it was a vision, then it didn't happen literally and Moses and Elijah couldn't have been quickened. On the other hand, if it was literal, how do you explain the presence of the two OT prophets?

Trivalee
Aug 10th 2017, 06:01 PM
And white robes were given unto every one of them (souls) ; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Interact? OK!

"Interact? OK!"

I'm not sure whether you're arguing for or against?
'

CadyandZoe
Aug 10th 2017, 06:21 PM
And white robes were given unto every one of them (souls) ; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Interact? OK!

Here is my interaction for what it is worth. The human body is God's gift to human beings, which has sensory organs that enable human beings to make contact with the created order. One might understand what it would be like to not have a body if we postulate an aggregate composite of all the various privations of our senses together into one. Blindness, for example, is the privation of the eyes, optic nerves, or other brain trauma. Deafness is a privation of the ears, or ear drum, or inner ear nerve endings or other brain trauma. And there are privations of the other senses also: lack of smell, lack of taste and lack of touch. Thus, our composite body in which we have taken away every quality or attribute normally present and essential for making contact with the world suffers from complete sensory deprivation.

Do you really think a soul outside the body would be anything other than blind, deaf, not able to taste, not able to sense touch, not able to smell? No way to know if it is morning or evening; no way to hear the encouraging word of a friend; no way to feel the sun on the face; no way to smell a green field of grass at the dawn of a new day. No way to taste the bitter herbs of a disappointed life.

percho
Aug 10th 2017, 08:50 PM
"Interact? OK!"

I'm not sure whether you're arguing for or against?
'

Looks like they were interacting in dreaming to me. Rest yet for a little season.

For you.

percho
Aug 10th 2017, 09:05 PM
Here is my interaction for what it is worth. The human body is God's gift to human beings, which has sensory organs that enable human beings to make contact with the created order. One might understand what it would be like to not have a body if we postulate an aggregate composite of all the various privations of our senses together into one. Blindness, for example, is the privation of the eyes, optic nerves, or other brain trauma. Deafness is a privation of the ears, or ear drum, or inner ear nerve endings or other brain trauma. And there are privations of the other senses also: lack of smell, lack of taste and lack of touch. Thus, our composite body in which we have taken away every quality or attribute normally present and essential for making contact with the world suffers from complete sensory deprivation.

Do you really think a soul outside the body would be anything other than blind, deaf, not able to taste, not able to sense touch, not able to smell? No way to know if it is morning or evening; no way to hear the encouraging word of a friend; no way to feel the sun on the face; no way to smell a green field of grass at the dawn of a new day. No way to taste the bitter herbs of a disappointed life.

I agree with you. The soul, outside a body, weather it be an earthly house of tabernacle or a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens would be naked and at rest.

And you will be with the Lord, when your soul is clothed with your house from heaven.

1 Cor 15 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Those that sleep and those awake. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thes 4 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: <and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Because that preceding took place we shall ever be with the Lord.

JAG__
Aug 10th 2017, 10:31 PM
Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother,
and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and
his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be
here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and
one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and
behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in
whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore
afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus
only.

Reading the account of the Transfiguration above, is there anything that
leads you to believe that what the disciples saw was a *vision*? If it
was a vision, then it didn't happen literally and Moses and Elijah couldn't
have been quickened. On the other hand, if it was literal, how do you
explain the presence of the two OT prophets?

Here is a question to answer: If it was a vision, did Moses and Elijah
actually talk with the Lord Jesus? Yes? or No?

You can't say No, because the Bible says that Moses and Elijah
talked with the Lord Jesus.

So you gotta say Yes, then you have the same problem, namely
people who died, now up talking and interacting with the Lord
Jesus and with each other --- Moses could hear and understand
Elijah and vise-versa.

Also there is nothing in the passage to cause me to think that these
events were a vision. Therefore . . .

I interpret the event as literally occurring.

My view is that the Lord Jesus was actually (ie literally) transfigured
in front of Peter, James, and John.

And that his face did actually shine as the sun, and his raiment was actually
as white as the light.

Then I take literally the appearance of Moses and Elijah in bodily form talking
with the Lord Jesus.

The way I explain the presence of the two Old Testament prophets is "absent
from the body, present with the Lord." This means that when Moses died
(and when Elijah went to Heaven) that they were conscious and interacting
with the people/angels there in Heaven.

Here is the specific answer to your question:
This also means they either had:

(1) temporary Intermediate-State bodies to be used all during the Intermediate State
(the Intermediate State is the time between Death and the Resurrection).

or

(2) they were given bodies to the used just for the few minutes involved in
the Transfiguration.

But either way they both, previously dead, were now conscious and
interacting with Jesus and each other.

___________


To recap an earlier post:
The idea that a soul/spirit cannot be conscious and interact without a body
is NOT an established fact. Its speculation. Its also based on subjective
inferences from certain Bible verses -- and it may or may not be true.

Also . .

The idea that God's people who die, are given temporary bodies to use
during the Intermediate State (while they wait for the Resurrection
to get their permanent glorified bodies) makes sense to me, even
though I will freely admit that its pure speculation and may not
be true.

_________


But most importantly I ask this:

With regard to what God's people actually experience, what difference
does it make one way or the other on these two choices?

(1) After you die, you soul sleep [you are dead] until the Resurrection
and are not conscious and cannot interact with anyone in Heaven


(2) After you die, you are bodiless, yet you are supernaturally made
conscious and given the ability to interact with the people/angels in
Heaven.

It doesn't make any difference, with regard to what you actually
experience, whether you choose (1) or (2) -- [B]because your
next conscious moment is going to be with the Lord Jesus
and all the saints of glory.

Daniel567
Aug 11th 2017, 12:26 AM
Do you really think a soul outside the body would be anything other than blind, deaf, not able to taste, not able to sense touch, not able to smell? No way to know if it is morning or evening; no way to hear the encouraging word of a friend; no way to feel the sun on the face; no way to smell a green field of grass at the dawn of a new day. No way to taste the bitter herbs of a disappointed life.
This is a good example of A PURELY HUMANISTIC RESPONSE.

As a matter of fact, the soul is the "real you" and when it gets to Heaven, it is the real you who is alive and well in Heaven (provided you have been redeemed by God's grace and are "in Christ").

It would appear that Christian souls do receive some kind of a heavenly body even before they have been resurrected, or perhaps this is in fact speaking about the resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1-9). It matters not.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Brother Mark
Aug 11th 2017, 12:52 AM
Do you really think a soul outside the body would be anything other than blind, deaf, not able to taste, not able to sense touch, not able to smell? No way to know if it is morning or evening; no way to hear the encouraging word of a friend; no way to feel the sun on the face; no way to smell a green field of grass at the dawn of a new day. No way to taste the bitter herbs of a disappointed life.

What about our spiritual eyes, and ears, etc.?

What about God the Father who is a Spirit? Are you suggesting that God the Father is housed in a body too?

God is spirit.

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NASB

And God has a soul.

Lev 26:11 'Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.
NASB

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen;
My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
NASB

Isa 42:1

42 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
NASB

God also speaks of His soul in many verses in Jeremiah. Jer 5:9, 5:29, 6:8, 9:9, 32:41

Zach. 11:8 is another.

percho
Aug 11th 2017, 12:33 PM
This is a good example of A PURELY HUMANISTIC RESPONSE.

As a matter of fact, the soul is the "real you" and when it gets to Heaven, it is the real you who is alive and well in Heaven (provided you have been redeemed by God's grace and are "in Christ").

It would appear that Christian souls do receive some kind of a heavenly body even before they have been resurrected, or perhaps this is in fact speaking about the resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1-9). It matters not.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.



Would you say that this: but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
means the exact same thing as this: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. ?????

Death is swallowed up in victory = mortality might be swallowed up of life?????

When? For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: When? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

CadyandZoe
Aug 11th 2017, 01:17 PM
This is a good example of A PURELY HUMANISTIC RESPONSE. Okay, maybe. But before I consider your rebuke, perhaps you would be so kind as to give me YOUR definition of "humanistic" and how my post fit that definition.


It would appear that Christian souls do receive some kind of a heavenly body even before they have been resurrected . . .Here we must be careful to avoid taking away with one hand what we gave with the other hand. In other words, to suppose that God supplies some kind of heavenly body before resurrection, is to render resurrection unnecessary. Now, I'm very certain you didn't mean to say this and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but your statement has a logical conclusion that perhaps you didn't intend. In fact, Paul talks about our resurrected body as a "heavenly body" in 1Corinthians 15.

The following passage describes the heavenly body you propose.

1Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.


Here Paul compares and contrasts our perishable body with our future imperishable body. He uses sets of paired words in his description such as:

Dishonor:glory
Weekness:power
Natural:Spiritual
Living soul:Life giving spirit
Earthly:Heavenly

Also, he tells his readers when this transformation will take place.

1Corinthians 15:
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

In other words, Jesus followers are resurrected and clothed with their heavenly body at the last trumpet.

CadyandZoe
Aug 11th 2017, 01:21 PM
Would you say that this: but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
means the exact same thing as this: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. ?????

Death is swallowed up in victory = mortality might be swallowed up of life?????

When? For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: When? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Sorry, I didn't see your post before I posted mine. :) Thanks.

CadyandZoe
Aug 11th 2017, 01:32 PM
What about our spiritual eyes, and ears, etc.?

What about God the Father who is a Spirit? Are you suggesting that God the Father is housed in a body too?

God is spirit.

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NASB

And God has a soul.

Lev 26:11 'Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.
NASB

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen;
My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
NASB

Isa 42:1

42 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
NASB

God also speaks of His soul in many verses in Jeremiah. Jer 5:9, 5:29, 6:8, 9:9, 32:41

Zach. 11:8 is another.

I don't know how to respond to your post exactly but your post seems focused on the nature of God; my post was focused on the nature of man. I'm trying to explore the supposition that as a soul, a man doesn't need a body to make contact with the world and I can't make sense of that given what I know about bodies and how they serve us. And though a person might have inner "eyes", which give him or her wisdom and insight and discernment, inner eyes don't allow a father to see his lovely little girl in her new Easter dress, or see his son make a touchdown. I'm just sayin' . . .

JAG__
Aug 11th 2017, 02:03 PM
to suppose that God supplies some kind of heavenly body before resurrection,
is to render resurrection unnecessary

If God does supply some kind of temporary body to be used only
during the Intermediate State, it does not logically follow that the Resurrection is
rendered unnecessary --- because the speculative claim is that the temporary
body is not made from the same substance as the new glorified body that we
will get at the Resurrection.

Of course all this, your position and mine too, is speculation and based upon
inference and none of it rests upon the solid foundation of clear Biblical
statements that are compelling when they speak.

inference

: a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning

You can see here at THIS LINK (https://www.bing.com/search?q=inference+definition&form=EDNTHT&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnipt=4&refig=156cc1b2c06547218afa0d1752293eb8&sp=1&qs=HS&pq=inference+defi&sc=8-14&cvid=156cc1b2c06547218afa0d1752293eb8&cc=US&setlang=en-US) that the synonyms for the word "inference"
are conjecture, speculation, guess, presumption, assumption, etc. This means
that all of our held-positions on this issue is packed and saturated with our
subjective biases and strong prejudices.

The truth is the Bible the Word of God, is not compelling clear on this
issue and we are therefore left to speculate on it based mostly on what
we have decided that we want to believe --- so we interpret all the Biblical
texts in light of what we have already decided we want to believe on this
subject. That's just human nature to do that. I don't like the notion that
we lay in the ground dead unconscious for what could be tens of thousands
of years (or much longer) before the Resurrection --- I do NOT like that
notion, therefore I interpret Paul's "absent from the body, present with the
Lord" to be a repudiation of the idea that we lay in the ground dead and
unconscious for what could be hundreds of thousands of years (nobody
knows when the Lord is going to return in spite of what they may say
about that --- the truth is they do not know, so it could be 900,000
years before the Lord returns and before the Resurrection. I don't
like the idea of laying in the ground dead unconscious for perhaps
900,000 years. That possibility does not bother some people, so they
gravitate to your position.

The truth is we're all speculating here.

Only God knows for certain, not you and me, which one of these
are true.


(1) After you die, you soul sleep [you are dead] until the Resurrection
and are not conscious and cannot interact with anyone in Heaven


(2) After you die, you are bodiless, yet you are supernaturally made
conscious and given the ability to interact with the people/angels in
Heaven.


(3) After you die, you are given a non-glorified temporary body to use
and you are conscious and can interact with people/angels in Heaven.


I personally choose to believe either (2) or (3), but as I keep saying,
with regard to what we all will actually experience, its does not make
any difference whether you choose (1), (2), or (3) --- because either
one of the 3 [B]means that our next conscious moment is going
to be with the Lord.

CadyandZoe
Aug 11th 2017, 02:52 PM
If God does supply some kind of temporary body to be used only
during the Intermediate State, it does not logically follow that the Resurrection is
rendered unnecessary --- because the speculative claim is that the temporary
body is not made from the same substance as the new glorified body that we
will get at the Resurrection.Okay, but first, let's be clear that I have not speculated. I have not proposed a solution or a "fix" in order to maintain the idea that people who die are taken to be with the Lord. I don't need to speculate and my view doesn't need a "fix". Paul says that both the living and the dead in Christ are resurrected together at the last trump to be with the Lord. This leaves no room for a "temporary" or "intermediate state." To postulate an intermediate state where people exist in temporary bodies is to suggest that at the rapture, those dead in Christ must return to earth, find their bodies, (if they can) and rise in them. But in my view this yo-yo event is an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to support mistaken notion that the soul is eternal and needs to park somewhere while waiting for the resurrection.

Brother Mark
Aug 11th 2017, 03:27 PM
I don't know how to respond to your post exactly but your post seems focused on the nature of God; my post was focused on the nature of man. I'm trying to explore the supposition that as a soul, a man doesn't need a body to make contact with the world and I can't make sense of that given what I know about bodies and how they serve us. And though a person might have inner "eyes", which give him or her wisdom and insight and discernment, inner eyes don't allow a father to see his lovely little girl in her new Easter dress, or see his son make a touchdown. I'm just sayin' . . .

Does God the Father interact with the world? Does He see the world? In the same way, we will be able to as well.

Brother Mark
Aug 11th 2017, 03:31 PM
Okay, but first, let's be clear that I have not speculated. I have not proposed a solution or a "fix" in order to maintain the idea that people who die are taken to be with the Lord. I don't need to speculate and my view doesn't need a "fix". Paul says that both the living and the dead in Christ are resurrected together at the last trump to be with the Lord. This leaves no room for a "temporary" or "intermediate state." To postulate an intermediate state where people exist in temporary bodies is to suggest that at the rapture, those dead in Christ must return to earth, find their bodies, (if they can) and rise in them. But in my view this yo-yo event is an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to support mistaken notion that the soul is eternal and needs to park somewhere while waiting for the resurrection.

IMO, your view does need a fix and you endeavor to do it. You change the meaning of the word translated paradise to mean an earthly garden/grave when Jesus used it, even though Paul used the same exact word to describe the 3rd heaven. You speculate that a soul cannot see the world and interact with it without a body.

The rich man and Lazarus were awake in the grave, one in paradise the other in hell. One has to get around that to believe in soul sleep.

There's plenty of room for man to be awake immediately after death in the scriptures, IMO.

CadyandZoe
Aug 11th 2017, 04:11 PM
Does God the Father interact with the world? Does He see the world? In the same way, we will be able to as well.

Jesus draws an analogy between our existence after the resurrection with that of angels, but even here, the circumstance is post-resurrection, not an intermediate state.

CadyandZoe
Aug 11th 2017, 04:50 PM
IMO, your view does need a fix and you endeavor to do it. You change the meaning of the word translated paradise to mean an earthly garden/grave when Jesus used it, even though Paul used the same exact word to describe the 3rd heaven. To be fair, the word Paradise was first used to indicate the royal parks of Persia. Some refer to the Garden of Eden as "Paradise", which is not a mythical place or heaven, but a real place where Adam and Eve lived for a time. And eventually, yes, the word was associated with "heaven".

Now, my argument is NOT that Paradise can't refer to heaven. That is not my argument. Rather, my argument is that in the context, it makes more sense to understand Jesus' to say that the thief will join him in the place where he would be buried, i.e. in a garden. Why is this significant? Well, for one, this is irony. Jesus is preparing the thief to expect the unexpected. The thief expects one consequence or outcome at the end of the day, while Jesus expects a different consequence or outcome at the end of the day. The crucifixion is happening in the opposite way than the thief expects.

The crowds don't expect Jesus to be taken alive off the cross, because the crowds, for the most part, don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. The response coming from the crowds were nothing but mocking and abusive language. But the thief was a believer, just as Peter is, and didn't expect that God would allow his son to be killed.

Matthew 16:
21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Was Peter wrong? Not exactly. I think Peter understood that in general, and according to the scriptures, God protects his servants. Even Satan himself quoted the OT passage where it says that God would not allow him to stub his toe on a stone. But Peter himself might have become a stumbling stone, had Jesus not understood God's interests. Peter couldn't imagine and it never crossed his mind that God would allow his messiah to fall into the hands of evil men to suffer and die. But Jesus and the Father both knew the plan concerning his role as intercessor and savior and that Jesus himself would offer his own blood to save his followers.

But Peter was well-schooled in the scriptures; committed to keeping the law; and taught by Jesus himself. What can be said about the knowledge, and education of a thief? Who knows, but it is certain that the thief believed that Jesus was the messiah and that he would come into his kingdom. I doubt, however, that the thief understood or knew that Jesus was going to rise from the dead. Not even Jesus' closest disciples or the twelve understood this. So what did the thief mean when he said, "remember me when you come into your kingdom?"

Like Peter, it never entered the mind of the thief that God would allow the messiah to die on a cross. No body knew that, which is why Paul calls it a mystery. And the thief had no clue that God was going to raise Jesus from the dead, just as the disciples continued to be skeptical, even after Jesus told them directly and flat out that he was going to be put on a cross and die. So, as we seek to understand this event, we will go off course if we don't bear in mind that the thief, let alone the disciples and his family had no idea what was about to happen. All they could do is stand there and hope for some kind of miracle.

So Jesus says, "Look, you might be in my kingdom some day, but today you will be buried in the same place I am buried." The fact that he calls it "Paradise" is part of the irony.

grams
Aug 11th 2017, 06:21 PM
1st. Ths.


13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


14


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

JAG__
Aug 11th 2017, 07:10 PM
Okay, but first, let's be clear that I have not speculated. I have not proposed a solution or a "fix" in
order to maintain the idea that people who die are taken to be with the Lord. I don't need to speculate
and my view doesn't need a "fix". Paul says that both the living and the dead in Christ are resurrected
together at the last trump to be with the Lord. This leaves no room for a "temporary" or "intermediate
state." To postulate an intermediate state where people exist in temporary bodies is to suggest that at
the rapture, those dead in Christ must return to earth, find their bodies, (if they can) and rise in them.
But in my view this yo-yo event is an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to support mistaken
notion that the soul is eternal and needs to park somewhere while waiting for the resurrection.

Miscellaneous Points:

♦ Usually most everybody makes the claim that they do not speculate. And they then follow that up
by claiming argumentative victory and declaring that their position has risen above speculation.
That's exactly what you are doing here. But that's okay, human nature is what it is.

♦ You ignored a large number of the points in my posts up-thread, but that's okay too. I have
had my say and you have had your say, and readers can, if they want to, decide which view
they like the best.

♦ And you misrepresent my view. I don't hold what you suggest I hold (in your quote up there),
eg. I never said that the human soul is eternal.

♦ Your view is based upon your inference from a verse from Paul's writings. And your inference,
like all inferences, are laced with subjectivity and biases and interpretative prejudices in favor of
your chosen viewpoint. Just as are mine.

♦ I interpret Paul's "absent from the body, present with the Lord" to mean that Paul believed that
upon death we immediately go to be with the Lord.

♦ The temporary bodies thingy is, as I have said many times, pure speculation.

♦ I hold the position that when Paul said, "absent from the body, present with the Lord" that he
did NOT mean that he would lay unconscious-dead for "only God knows how many
mega-millenniums" before he was again conscious and interacting with other people. This is
certainly a reasonable position to hold and it is held by millions of Bible believing Christians.
So we disagree on a theological point! --- sounds to me like the Internet is humming along
as usual ;-)

JAG__
Aug 11th 2017, 11:13 PM
`
Here is another possible support for my view:

Back to the Transfiguration juxtaposed with the teaching of the Lord Jesus in
Matthew 22:32, namely that God is not "the God of the dead, but of the living".

Although Moses had died and Elijah had been taken up to heaven centuries before,
they now live in the presence of the Son of God. They were in fact there at
The Transfiguration quite alive and quite conscious and interacting with the
Lord Jesus.


"But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not
the God of the dead but of the living.”
Matthew 22:31-32

Its reasonable to interpret Matthew 22:31-32 as the Lord Jesus saying that
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive now in Heaven (just as, obviously, Moses
and Elijah were.)

I admit there are other ways to look at Matthew 22:31-32, but my suggested
interpretation is reasonable and not at all far-fetched.