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Cyberseeker
Sep 10th 2017, 10:12 PM
Regeneration of the human spirit is a cornerstone doctrine of the New Testament, taught in Jesus’ famous ‘born again’ discourse with Nicodemus. (John 3) Likewise, St. Paul explains our restoration in scriptures such as Colossians 3:9-10.

“You have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.”

Given that New Testament revelation finds its fountainhead in the Old Testament, was this experience explicitly promised by the prophets? And where in the Old Testament is the source of the doctrine of Regeneration?

Daniel567
Sep 11th 2017, 12:15 AM
And where in the Old Testament is the source of the doctrine of Regeneration?
Since the New Covenant is already stated in the Old Testament, regeneration is already mentioned there.

25 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-36-25/) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-36-26/) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-36-27/) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:25-27)

31 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Jeremiah-31-31/) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Jeremiah-31-32/) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Jeremiah-31-33/) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31: 31-33)

There are also other related Scriptures.

Noeb
Sep 11th 2017, 01:31 AM
Also, the individual (soul) is regenerated, not the spirit (from God - not human). The scripture reference (old self) is the individual (soul). The old self is body+spirit=soul, the new self is body+spirit-Spirit=soul. The old is gone and no longer exists.

randyk
Sep 11th 2017, 05:26 AM
Regeneration of the human spirit is a cornerstone doctrine of the New Testament, taught in Jesus’ famous ‘born again’ discourse with Nicodemus. (John 3) Likewise, St. Paul explains our restoration in scriptures such as Colossians 3:9-10.


Given that New Testament revelation finds its fountainhead in the Old Testament, was this experience explicitly promised by the prophets? And where in the Old Testament is the source of the doctrine of Regeneration?

What a great question! Yes, I think Jesus indicated, in his conversation with Nicodemus, that teachers in Israel should've known about regeneration. I think the whole interest in the Prophets was in discerning the difference between outward observance of the Law and an inner spiritual relationship with God. This inner "marriage" to God was to result in genuine spiritual fruit, such as love and compassion. It was the spring out of which God's own love became mercy towards us. In a nutshell, I see regeneration as a character change, a "falling in love," so to speak. This is, however, a different kind of romance. It is a complete transformation in which we exchange our carnal selves for God's virtues. It is the abandonment of autonomous living in favor of dependence upon the spiritual life of God, a new chance at the tree of life.

Walls
Sep 11th 2017, 09:06 AM
Regeneration of the human spirit is a cornerstone doctrine of the New Testament, taught in Jesus’ famous ‘born again’ discourse with Nicodemus. (John 3) Likewise, St. Paul explains our restoration in scriptures such as Colossians 3:9-10.


Given that New Testament revelation finds its fountainhead in the Old Testament, was this experience explicitly promised by the prophets? And where in the Old Testament is the source of the doctrine of Regeneration?

Adam, perfect in his construction and habits until the fall, was placed in front of the Tree of Life and commanded to eat. When a man eats anything the system which God has put in place causes that food to be assimilated by the man. It becomes organically one with the man and permeates his being. So Adam, although perfect in his humanity, needed another "birth" in which the divine life would be infused into him. This was necessary because to be a "help meet" for our Lord Jesus he needed to have the same nature - the divine nature.

The New, and additional, and heavenly, and necessary birth is found in Genesis 2.

And by the way, contrary to some peoples' belief, the new birth only applies to the SPIRIT of man (Jn.3:6). From there, it works its way into the SOUL of man, not by REBIRTH, but by TRANSFORMATION (Rom.8:29; 2nd Cor.3:18; Col.3:10). Later, the body, by this same Holy Spirit, will be resurrected (or changed if the saint is alive at Christ's coming) in the image of Christ's body to complete the full salvation of man. 1st Corinthians 15:49; "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also (in resurrection) bear the image of the heavenly."

Cyberseeker
Sep 11th 2017, 05:32 PM
25 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-36-25/) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-36-26/) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-36-27/) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:25-27)


This is indeed an impressive promise. But if we apply it to regeneration of the believer at conversion, we get a conflict with another widely held teaching. Im referring to the Christian possessing two natures - his new nature in Christ, and the adamic nature he was born with. What Ezekiel seems to be saying here, is that the 'old nature' is extracted from us at the same time as the 'new nature' is put in us. Is that what Ezekiel is saying? :hmm:

Noeb
Sep 12th 2017, 01:52 AM
I don't see a conflict, and the teaching of two natures is false. The nature of a thing is the essence of a thing.

Noeb
Sep 12th 2017, 01:54 AM
Adam, perfect in his construction and habits until the fall, was placed in front of the Tree of Life and commanded to eat.Never read that. Where might that be?



And by the way, contrary to some peoples' belief, the new birth only applies to the SPIRIT of man (Jn.3:6).Neither that verse or that passage say that.

Daniel567
Sep 12th 2017, 04:14 AM
What Ezekiel seems to be saying here, is that the 'old nature' is extracted from us at the same time as the 'new nature' is put in us. Is that what Ezekiel is saying? :hmm:
What the Lord was saying through Ezekiel was primarily about regeneration -- a new heart and a new spirit. What Titus calls "the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost". A supernatural work of God to convert a vile sinner into a saint.

So the issue of the old Adamic sin nature is not addressed here. Ideally every Christian should be "filled with the Spirit" which means continuously walking in the Spirit and producing the fruit of the Spirit.

But since the old Adamic sin is not immediately eradicated, we are told over and over again to crucify or mortify the flesh. So if the Christian would reject the lusts of the flesh constantly, the new heart, the new spirit, and the new creature in Christ would always be overcomers and have the victory. But that is the ideal, and not always the case.

Cyberseeker
Sep 12th 2017, 07:19 AM
So the issue of the old Adamic sin nature is not addressed here.

Can you suggest what the prophet may have had in mind by his statement, "... and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh"

Walls
Sep 12th 2017, 09:13 AM
Never read that. Where might that be?


Neither that verse or that passage say that.

I'm surprised that you you not know that what God makes is perfect especially man. After restoring the earth in six days, God found all that He did "good". But when He made man we read in Genesis 1:31; "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Isaiah 45:18 assures us that God does not make anything imperfect. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." This is confirmed in 1st Corinthians 14:33; "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." Even Satan was made perfect; "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15). The word "till" indicates a addition that came well AFTER he was created.

And John 3:6 says that the rebirth is ONLY for the human spirit. The grammar is clear, especially in context with what Nicodemus held.

Daniel567
Sep 12th 2017, 12:27 PM
Can you suggest what the prophet may have had in mind by his statement, "... and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh"
A stony heart is a hard heart, and a hard hard resists the voice of the Holy Spirit (Heb 3:7-10; Acts 7:51-53).

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Hebrews-3-8/)Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Hebrews-3-9/)When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Hebrews-3-10/)Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.


51 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-7-51/)Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-7-52/)Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-7-53/)Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

God had already deemed Israel (in general) as being resistant to the Holy Spirit. But when Israel is converted at the second coming of Christ, that resistance will be taken away and Israel will mourn and repent and be converted. They will finally submit to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Walls
Sep 12th 2017, 12:39 PM
Regeneration is ONLY by faith (Jn.1:12; 1st Jn.5:1). Regeneration in scripture means a new birth and, in regard to man, it imparts the divine nature (Jn.3:15-16, 36, 5:24). The promise to Israel of a new spirit, and new heart and the replacement of the stony heart for one of softer flesh (Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31 and 36:26) is NOT regeneration. That which is promised to Israel to enable them to keep the New Covenant of Law is a FRESH, or REPLACED spirit and heart. Israel, addressed in the Old Testament, NEVER believe until they "see", in which case faith is ended, for Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is the substance of things UNSEEN.

Noeb
Sep 12th 2017, 03:48 PM
I'm surprised that you you not know that what God makes is perfect especially man. After restoring the earth in six days, God found all that He did "good". But when He made man we read in Genesis 1:31; "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Isaiah 45:18 assures us that God does not make anything imperfect. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." This is confirmed in 1st Corinthians 14:33; "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." Even Satan was made perfect; "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15). The word "till" indicates a addition that came well AFTER he was created.

And John 3:6 says that the rebirth is ONLY for the human spirit. The grammar is clear, especially in context with what Nicodemus held.So where did you address that Adam "was placed in front of the Tree of Life and commanded to eat."?

John 3:6 says what is born of flesh is fleshly, what is born of spirit is spiritual. Like Paul saying we are not in the flesh but in the spirit. Has nothing to do with one singular aspect of our nature. John is very clear the man is born, not just a part. Was only the flesh born of flesh? Of course not.

Walls
Sep 13th 2017, 09:42 AM
So where did you address that Adam "was placed in front of the Tree of Life and commanded to eat."?

John 3:6 says what is born of flesh is fleshly, what is born of spirit is spiritual. Like Paul saying we are not in the flesh but in the spirit. Has nothing to do with one singular aspect of our nature. John is very clear the man is born, not just a part. Was only the flesh born of flesh? Of course not.

Genesis 2:9-16;
9 "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
....
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:"

Young's Literal gives it more precisely: "And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;"

John 3:6 does NOT say; "... and that which is born of the Spirit is SPIRITUAL." It reads, "... and that which is born of the Spirit is SPIRIT." The context was the WOMB (as supposed by Nicodemus), and in opposition, a birth IN THE SPIRIT. The spirit is place where the rebirth takes place. So also in the next Chapter of John. Not Mount Gerizim, Not Mount Moriah, but IN the human spirit must man worship God (4:20-24).

Deuteronomy Skaggs
Sep 26th 2017, 09:11 AM
Regeneration is ONLY by faith.......Regeneration in scripture means a new birth.......

Hi Walls (et al), do you think faith comes before regeneration/being born again, or does regeneration precede faith?

And why do you think that's so?

Thanks!

~Deut

Walls
Sep 26th 2017, 02:09 PM
Hi Walls (et al), do you think faith comes before regeneration/being born again, or does regeneration precede faith?

And why do you think that's so?

Thanks!

~Deut

I understand the faith comes first. Here are some unambiguous statements of scripture. Some of them do not pertain to receiving eternal life, but they show all begins with faith.

John 1:12; "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
John 3:15; "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:36; "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
John 5:24; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:40; "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:47; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."
John 7:39; "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
Acts 10:43; "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Acts 16:31; "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Romans 4:24; "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."
Romans 10:9; "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Ephesians 1:19; "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,"
1st Timothy 1:16; "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."
Hebrews 10:39; "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
1st John 5:13; "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

You ask why? I hope not to sound simple, but my answer is "the Bible tells me so".

Deuteronomy Skaggs
Sep 27th 2017, 05:28 AM
I understand the faith comes first. Here are some unambiguous statements of scripture. Some of them do not pertain to receiving eternal life, but they show all begins with faith.

You ask why? I hope not to sound simple, but my answer is "the Bible tells me so".

Hi Walls, thanks for getting back to me so quickly :) You answered my "why do you believe what you do" question with Scripture, and that's exactly what I was hoping for actually :thumbsup: However, after looking over the verses you gave us, while they certainly point to the Biblical fact that "whosoever believes will have everlasting life", my problem with faith preceding regeneration still exists because of what verses like these teach us:


John 3
3 ....unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

These two verses paint a pretty descriptive but bleak picture of men and women who are outside of Christ. They don't know Him, nor can they see or understand Him or His Kingdom, so much so that the things of God are not only unacceptable to them, it all seems like nothing but foolishness to them (because the things of God must be "spiritually" appraised to be understood and accepted).

My question is, how can such a person ever come to faith? Faith in what/who? This is why I have come to the conclusion that God causes us to be regenerated/born again BEFORE we come to faith, that our being born again is a big part of what makes coming to faith possible for us.

Thanks!

~Deut

Walls
Sep 27th 2017, 08:32 AM
Hi Walls, thanks for getting back to me so quickly :) You answered my "why do you believe what you do" question with Scripture, and that's exactly what I was hoping for actually :thumbsup: However, after looking over the verses you gave us, while they certainly point to the Biblical fact that "whosoever believes will have everlasting life", my problem with faith preceding regeneration still exists because of what verses like these teach us:



These two verse paint a pretty descriptive but bleak picture of men and women who are outside of Christ. They don't know Him, nor can they see or understand Him or His Kingdom, so much so that the things of God are not only unacceptable to them, it all seems like nothing but foolishness to them (because the things of God must be "spiritually" appraised to be understood and accepted).

My question is, how can such a person ever come to faith? Faith in what/who? This is why I have come to the conclusion that God causes us to be regenerated/born again BEFORE we come to faith, that our being born again is a big part of what makes coming to faith possible for us.

Thanks!

~Deut

My understanding is similar in part. Man's condition does not allow him to make any kind of move toward God. He is at "enmity" with God (Rom.8:7). But God has "foreknowledge" (Act.2:23; 1st Pet.1:2). He knows ahead what every man would do with power extended to him*. And this foreknowledge is the basis for extending to certain men the "gift" of faith. So Ephesians 2:8 makes clear that, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." The grammar is clear. The "faith" is designated a "gift". This is confirmed by Hebrews 12:2a; "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; ... ." Romans 12:3 too; "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

* It is not that God is arbitrary in giving. An example should suffice. The United States Air Force needs pilots. They do a selection. These selections have been brought down to a fine art over the decades. This selection is to determine whether (1) the man or woman has the capabilities, and (2) the man or woman will know and appreciate it when they are given power over a $100 million dollar aircraft and the lives of others. That is, the aspirant might have the capabilities, but he/she has no sense of responsibility toward men and machines. Though he/she has the capabilities, the Air Force will refuse such a person pilot training in the "foreknowledge" that they will eventually kill themselves, others, and cause loss to the US Military.

Aristarkos
Sep 27th 2017, 10:14 AM
My understanding is similar in part. Man's condition does not allow him to make any kind of move toward God.

[...]



That of course is counteracted by another part of Romans:

Rom. 1:18 — 21 « For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. »

That we can and should do, believe in the God Creator. What man cannot do is believe in Christ without being first regenerated by God:

1 Cor. 12:3 « Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. »

When we talk about regeneration we should distinguish between two things:

1. The national regeneration of Israel.
2. Individual regeneration.

The Lord Jesus refers to #1 mostly since He was a « minister of circumcision confirming the promises unto the fathers » Rom. 15:8. This is the clearest in Mat. 19:28 « ... in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory ». When you read the gospels, it must strike the reader the Lord and the 12 never asked for believing in the Christ to those who were not regenerated and only than we can say what Peter said in Mat. 16:16, 17 « ... Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God ... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. »

Most Israelite already believed in Jehovah, the God Creator but needed to be regenerated to be able to believe in Christ. The whole of Israel should have turned to God when they saw the miracles the Lord did and accept Him as Messiah. These were the wonders and miracles of the aion to come Heb. 6:5, when Israel will take up its task to become the Kingdom of priests, Exo. 19:6; 1 Pet. 2:9, teaching all the nations Mat. 28:19.

Since non regenerated cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ, it should be obvious preaching Christ to those is pointless and we should do as Paul and teach the God Creator Acts 17:23, 24. When they accept that, God will regenerate them and then they can believe in Christ when He's preached. This is still a matter of choice as is believing in the God Creator.

So believe always comes before regeneration, it's the object of believe that shifts.

Aristarkos

Walls
Sep 27th 2017, 12:11 PM
That of course is counteracted by another part of Romans:

Rom. 1:18 — 21 « For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. »

That we can and should do, believe in the God Creator. What man cannot do is believe in Christ without being first regenerated by God:



I would think that this text rather supports my theory. Men know there is a God via the creation, but STILL turn the creature into idols. It is NOT that they did not have the truth. It is that they "HOLD the truth in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS". Romans Chapter 7 confirms this. Even men under Law cannot do them EVEN WHEN THEY WANT TO! F


1 Cor. 12:3 « Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. »

This too supports my theory. A man must be acted upon by the Holy Spirit before he can admit Jesus. This verse does not indicated the Holy Spirit INSIDE a man, but OUTSIDE, like Balaam. HE was a heathen prophet before the Holy Spirit spoke through Him, and he remained a heathen prophet afterwards. So also his ass. It was the Lord that gave him power to speak (Nu.22:28). Afterwards he was still an unregenerate ass.


When we talk about regeneration we should distinguish between two things:

1. The national regeneration of Israel.

This term or concept NEVER appears in the whole Bible. Israel are universally in "UNbelief". Of course, they believe when they see "Him whom they pierced" descend from the clouds, but then faith in OVER. Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is the substance of things UNSEEN. When Israel SEE Jesus, there is no faith in action. Faith IS NOT the substance of things SEEN. Regeneration can only come by faith. See my first posting for all the evidence.


2. Individual regeneration.

The Lord Jesus refers to #1 mostly since He was a « minister of circumcision confirming the promises unto the fathers » Rom. 15:8. This is the clearest in Mat. 19:28 « ... in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory ». When you read the gospels, it must strike the reader the Lord and the 12 never asked for believing in the Christ to those who were not regenerated and only than we can say what Peter said in Mat. 16:16, 17 « ... Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God ... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. »

Three things here.

Matthew 19:28 refers to the earth in the Millennial Kingdom. It is released from its bondage and even the deserts will bloom (Rom.8). There is NO regeneration for men after Christ Comes, for a man can only be born to God by FAITH (Jn.1:12). And, as shown above, faith vanishes when there is SIGHT (Heb.11:1).
The disciples were mostly in unbelief during Christ's ministry. They needed "signs" to believe (Jn.2:11, 22). But even after our Lord was risen they still did not believe Him (Jn.20:25). How then could they preach FAITH? But after they received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 they adjured other men to believe.
Matthew 16:16-17 does not address faith. It addresses a REVELATION from God to REVEAL to Peter Who Jesus was. It proves my theory, and the mound of scriptures I gave in my first posting, that a man cannot BELIEVE unless acted upon by God. This action is NOT regeneration. It is REVELATION.


Most Israelite already believed in Jehovah, the God Creator but needed to be regenerated to be able to believe in Christ. The whole of Israel should have turned to God when they saw the miracles the Lord did and accept Him as Messiah. These were the wonders and miracles of the aion to come Heb. 6:5, when Israel will take up its task to become the Kingdom of priests, Exo. 19:6; 1 Pet. 2:9, teaching all the nations Mat. 28:19.

Since non regenerated cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ, it should be obvious preaching Christ to those is pointless and we should do as Paul and teach the God Creator Acts 17:23, 24. When they accept that, God will regenerate them and then they can believe in Christ when He's preached. This is still a matter of choice as is believing in the God Creator.

So believe always comes before regeneration, it's the object of believe that shifts.

Aristarkos

I'm sorry but I could not follow your argument here. Please forgive me. But what I did understand is what I have made bold. You agree with me! I quote you; "So believe always comes BEFORE regeneration".

But now I have a request. Take the verses I posted in my first posting (#17) and show why they do not say what they say. They certainly do not say that faith comes from eternal life!

CadyandZoe
Sep 27th 2017, 12:44 PM
This is indeed an impressive promise. But if we apply it to regeneration of the believer at conversion, we get a conflict with another widely held teaching. Im referring to the Christian possessing two natures - his new nature in Christ, and the adamic nature he was born with. What Ezekiel seems to be saying here, is that the 'old nature' is extracted from us at the same time as the 'new nature' is put in us. Is that what Ezekiel is saying? :hmm:

The idea that we have two natures is not a Biblical idea, and frankly it's absurd on the face of it. What Ezekiel has described is a change in a person's nature. Likewise, the new creature in Christ is a changed person, not two natures in one person.

CadyandZoe
Sep 27th 2017, 12:58 PM
I understand the faith comes first. Here are some unambiguous statements of scripture. Some of them do not pertain to receiving eternal life, but they show all begins with faith.

John 1:12; "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
John 3:15; "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:36; "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
John 5:24; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:40; "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:47; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."
John 7:39; "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
Acts 10:43; "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Acts 16:31; "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Romans 4:24; "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."
Romans 10:9; "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Ephesians 1:19; "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,"
1st Timothy 1:16; "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."
Hebrews 10:39; "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
1st John 5:13; "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

You ask why? I hope not to sound simple, but my answer is "the Bible tells me so".

None of these verses speak to the issue of whether regeneration comes before faith.

For instance, let's take the following verse.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

We see nothing here about regeneration or the new birth. This verse merely indicates an association between faith and immortality. The association is not made explicit; the connection between faith and eternal life is left unexpressed. All we know from this verse is that the two ideas are connected somehow and that eternal life accompanies faith.

This does not contradict Deut's observations concerning what the Bible says about the precedence of regeneration. Since this verse and Jesus statement in chapter 3 come from the same Gospel, then John could have easily said, "a person can not see the kingdom of God unless he is born again and having been born again and believed the gospel, he shall not perish, but have eternal life." I don't think this conflation violates the intent of John's gospel.

redleghunter
Sep 27th 2017, 01:02 PM
Acts 10:43 is the real 'clincher' in your list. Thanks for posting the list BTW.

God Bless

Walls
Sep 27th 2017, 09:43 PM
None of these verses speak to the issue of whether regeneration comes before faith.



I would hope not. If you read my text carefully you will see that it is reversed. Faith causes regeneration (Jn.1:12-13).


For instance, let's take the following verse.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

We see nothing here about regeneration or the new birth. This verse merely indicates an association between faith and immortality. The association is not made explicit; the connection between faith and eternal life is left unexpressed. All we know from this verse is that the two ideas are connected somehow and that eternal life accompanies faith.

My esteemed brother (sister), you have missed the point of the whole Bible. The meaning of regenerate is given as;
regenerate

1.
(of a living organism) grow (new tissue) after loss or damage.
"the lizard has to find the wherewithal to regenerate its tail"
(of an organ or tissue) grow again.
"once destroyed, brain cells do not regenerate"

2.
bring new and more vigorous life to (an area, industry, institution, etc.); revive,

Your meaning, when connected to immortality, is "everlasting life". But "Eternal Life" is the nature and intrinsic essence of God. When the Great White Throne is ushered in, the "rest of the dead stand" in resurrection. They cannot die again (Lk.20:36; Heb.9:27). That is, they have immortality. But they do not have Eternal Life. Those who are regenerated by a rebirth possess the Divine Life and the Divine Nature. Verse 13 of John 1 says; "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." According to Genesis 1:11-12 everything that has seed within itself will produce exactly like itself. To be born of God is to have His (Eternal) LIFE. We are (re)GENERATED by Holy Spirit.

And 2nd Peter 1:3-4 teaches us;

3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life* and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

* The same Greek word "zoe" used for every mention of "Eternal LIFE". It is opposed to "Psuché" (the life of the soul) and "Bios" (the life of the body).

Cyberseeker
Sep 28th 2017, 06:41 AM
The idea that we have two natures is not a Biblical idea, and frankly it's absurd on the face of it. What Ezekiel has described is a change in a person's nature. Likewise, the new creature in Christ is a changed person, not two natures in one person.

It is rather absurd isnt it? Yet, its surprising how many believe we have 2 natures. When the NIV first came out it translated 'the flesh' as 'the old nature', and that was unhelpful too.

Aristarkos
Sep 28th 2017, 08:07 AM
I understand the faith comes first. Here are some unambiguous statements of scripture. Some of them do not pertain to receiving eternal life, but they show all begins with faith.

John 1:12; "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
John 3:15; "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:36; "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
John 5:24; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:40; "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:47; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."
John 7:39; "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
Acts 10:43; "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Acts 16:31; "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Romans 4:24; "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."
Romans 10:9; "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Ephesians 1:19; "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,"
1st Timothy 1:16; "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."
Hebrews 10:39; "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
1st John 5:13; "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

You ask why? I hope not to sound simple, but my answer is "the Bible tells me so".

I'm not sure why you want me to respond to this, you talk here about faith in Christ, the Son of God and that is not the first step on the road of salvation, because to believe that, the connection between our spirit and God's spirit has to be restored first. This is called regeneration or rebirth or born from above. In this we are passive as in natural birth (hence the parallel) and is a reaction from God in our faith in the Creator God.

I responded to your other post because you said this as the opening sentence:


My understanding is similar in part. Man's condition does not allow him to make any kind of move toward God.

That is not correct as I explained in post #20 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/272261-Is-the-Promise-of-Regeneration-Enunciated-in-the-Old-Testament?p=3408263#post3408263)

Aristarkos

Walls
Sep 28th 2017, 08:17 AM
It is rather absurd isnt it? Yet, its surprising how many believe we have 2 natures. When the NIV first came out it translated 'the flesh' as 'the old nature', and that was unhelpful too.

This concept will cause you problems. In Romans Chapter 7, Paul, a seasoned Christian and zealous for God, discovers that he is unable to keep the Law of God even though he wants to. There, he establishes TWO things;

Sin dwells IN him and NO good thing dwells in his flesh (v.17-18)
His body is a body of death with a Law of sin and death (v.23-24)

But then he says that there is ANOTHER Law, which enable him to overcome this Law of sin, that is "the Law of Life in Christ Jesus", which is to be found in the spirit of man (8:1-6). Later, Paul tells us in Galatians 5:17; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

I'm sure that I do not have to write any more. One can immediately see the dilemma and problems that the doctrine of a SINGLE nature in a Christian causes.

Walls
Sep 28th 2017, 08:19 AM
I'm not sure why you want me to respond to this, you talk here about faith in Christ, the Son of God and that is not the first step on the road of salvation, because to believe that, the connection between our spirit and God's spirit has to be restored first. This is called regeneration or rebirth or born from above. In this we are passive as in natural birth (hence the parallel) and is a reaction from God in our faith in the Creator God.

I responded to your other post because you said this as the opening sentence:



That is not correct as I explained in post #20 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/272261-Is-the-Promise-of-Regeneration-Enunciated-in-the-Old-Testament?p=3408263#post3408263)

Aristarkos

Good. Why don't we leave it at that and let these scriptures speak for themselves?

Aristarkos
Sep 28th 2017, 09:01 AM
Good. Why don't we leave it at that and let these scriptures speak for themselves?

Scripture — explained in detail by Paul — speaks of three spheres of blessing:

1. Child of God (Regenerated, sins are covered)
2. Son of God (Justified by faith, sins are forgiven, dead to sin, blessed with Abraham)
3. Adult man (Full reconciliation (apokatallassoo), dead to sins and trespasses, blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ)

You cannot apply what is said to group 3 for example to group 2 or 1. Faith, or believing, is what determines where you are on the road of salvation. Paul speaks not only to these three groups but also distinguishes between Jew and Gentile. Although in Christ there is no difference, while still living in the flesh there is. Circumcision is just one example of those differences. Not only that, Paul also worked in different dispensations, we should take that into account as well.

So when we read Paul's letters we have to pay close attention to who he is speaking to make sure we have a Scriptural believe and honor God.

Aristarkos

Walls
Sep 28th 2017, 12:22 PM
Scripture — explained in detail by Paul — speaks of three spheres of blessing:

1. Child of God (Regenerated, sins are covered)
2. Son of God (Justified by faith, sins are forgiven, dead to sin, blessed with Abraham)
3. Adult man (Full reconciliation (apokatallassoo), dead to sins and trespasses, blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ)

You cannot apply what is said to group 3 for example to group 2 or 1. Faith, or believing, is what determines where you are on the road of salvation. Paul speaks not only to these three groups but also distinguishes between Jew and Gentile. Although in Christ there is no difference, while still living in the flesh there is. Circumcision is just one example of those differences. Not only that, Paul also worked in different dispensations, we should take that into account as well.

So when we read Paul's letters we have to pay close attention to who he is speaking to make sure we have a Scriptural believe and honor God.

Aristarkos

OK. But what has this to do with the list of verses in my posting #17 (which we now discuss) that clearly show rebirth, and Eternal Life, are issues of faith, and not the other way around?

CadyandZoe
Sep 28th 2017, 12:31 PM
This concept will cause you problems. In Romans Chapter 7, Paul, a seasoned Christian and zealous for God, discovers that he is unable to keep the Law of God even though he wants to. There, he establishes TWO things;

Sin dwells IN him and NO good thing dwells in his flesh (v.17-18)
His body is a body of death with a Law of sin and death (v.23-24)

But then he says that there is ANOTHER Law, which enable him to overcome this Law of sin, that is "the Law of Life in Christ Jesus", which is to be found in the spirit of man (8:1-6). Later, Paul tells us in Galatians 5:17; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

I'm sure that I do not have to write any more. One can immediately see the dilemma and problems that the doctrine of a SINGLE nature in a Christian causes.

Paul is not describing two natures. He is describing his current nature. What you think is two natures, is actual a single complex nature.

CadyandZoe
Sep 28th 2017, 12:36 PM
I would hope not. If you read my text carefully you will see that it is reversed. Faith causes regeneration (Jn.1:12-13). I know that. And you are mistaken about it, as Duet pointed out. And while modern English dictionaries have a particular definition of regeneration, this is not the Biblical definition. To understand and ascertain the Biblical definition of a word, one must examine the passages where the word is used to see what the Biblical author meant by it.

percho
Sep 28th 2017, 01:25 PM
I know that. And you are mistaken about it, as Duet pointed out. And while modern English dictionaries have a particular definition of regeneration, this is not the Biblical definition. To understand and ascertain the Biblical definition of a word, one must examine the passages where the word is used to see what the Biblical author meant by it.

An interesting statement.

A, "word," used only twice in the word of God. What does it mean where used? Does it have the same meaning in both places? Have we properly or improperly applied the same meaning to passages we assume are speaking of that, "word" yet it being not used?

Aristarkos
Sep 28th 2017, 02:15 PM
OK. But what has this to do with the list of verses in my posting #17 (which we now discuss) that clearly show rebirth, and Eternal Life, are issues of faith, and not the other way around?

Being regenerated does not give one eternal (aionic) life, it just opens the door to faith in Christ and that gives eternal (aionic) life. Both the child of God (who believes Jesus is the Christ) and the son of God (who is justified by being in Christ Jesus) have eternal life. But are they the same? No, the first belong to the earthly sphere (hence Israel when the finally turn to the Lord and are regenerated nationally with the start of the Kingdom) and the second to the heavenly sphere where they will be equal to the angels.

That is the normal road of salvation — through Israel. Now in the current dispensation, we as individuals can walk the road of salvation all the way to the end by grace. So regeneration is not our goal — it shouldn't anyway — but a means to progress to sonship and even to the position of the adult man. And that is the real issue of faith. Your list in post #17 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/272261-Is-the-Promise-of-Regeneration-Enunciated-in-the-Old-Testament?p=3408181#post3408181) mixes these thing up. In John 1:12 for instance the Greek doesn't read son (huios) but child (teknon). Acts 10:43 talks about the remission of sins which is what is part of being a child of God. The national regeneration of Israel is mentioned in the prophets for example:

Isa 44:3 « ... I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: »

Joe 2:28 « And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: »

This is said about Israel, not gentiles see v. 27:

« And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. »

The heavenly sphere has been known through O.T. times, Abraham being the most known example, but stays more on the background. The heavenly sphere belongs to the Kingdom of God, the earthly sphere to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Regeneration is about Israel as a nation, accepting finally their position when they accept the Messiah in His second coming. Applying this undiscriminated unto individual gentile believers is therefore wrong.
Yes it is a necessary step to be regenerated by God, but that is only the beginning in the current dispensation, not the end.

Aristarkos

CadyandZoe
Sep 28th 2017, 03:02 PM
An interesting statement.

A, "word," used only twice in the word of God. What does it mean where used? Does it have the same meaning in both places? Have we properly or improperly applied the same meaning to passages we assume are speaking of that, "word" yet it being not used?All good questions. I will investigate further. I am taking my cues from Titus 3:5, where Paul associates regeneration with a renewal performed by the Holy Spirit. But perhaps I need to reexamine this issue. Anything else come to mind?

randyk
Sep 28th 2017, 03:08 PM
Both faith and regeneration can be viewed as preliminary to eternal life because they are acts initiated in the direction of Christ, who is the one who actually saves us from eternal death. All the saints in the OT era had faith without eternal salvation initially. And throughout the OT era men of faith learned that there is a spiritual life that must transcend our carnal, independent nature. We must rely upon our spiritual nature in order to ultimately achieve eternal life.

Jesus' point was, I think, that if we are to achieve eternal life we must know about regeneration. We must know about and believe in the spiritual life that is to transcend our independent carnal life.

When we do choose to live by our call to spiritual living we choose to be directed by Christ. He is the source of eternal life. In choosing him we obtain eternal life. Those in the OT era who chose the spiritual life were actually choosing Christ. Here in the NT era those who choose spiritual living are choosing Christ as well. So our choice to live a spiritual life, rejecting the carnal, independent life, obtain eternal life because they are accepting Christ.

Walls
Sep 28th 2017, 04:22 PM
Being regenerated does not give one eternal (aionic) life, it just opens the door to faith in Christ and that gives eternal (aionic) life. Both the child of God (who believes Jesus is the Christ) and the son of God (who is justified by being in Christ Jesus) have eternal life. But are they the same? No, the first belong to the earthly sphere (hence Israel when the finally turn to the Lord and are regenerated nationally with the start of the Kingdom) and the second to the heavenly sphere where they will be equal to the angels.

That is the normal road of salvation — through Israel. Now in the current dispensation, we as individuals can walk the road of salvation all the way to the end by grace. So regeneration is not our goal — it shouldn't anyway — but a means to progress to sonship and even to the position of the adult man. And that is the real issue of faith. Your list in post #17 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/272261-Is-the-Promise-of-Regeneration-Enunciated-in-the-Old-Testament?p=3408181#post3408181) mixes these thing up. In John 1:12 for instance the Greek doesn't read son (huios) but child (teknon). Acts 10:43 talks about the remission of sins which is what is part of being a child of God. The national regeneration of Israel is mentioned in the prophets for example:

Isa 44:3 « ... I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: »

Joe 2:28 « And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: »

This is said about Israel, not gentiles see v. 27:

« And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. »

The heavenly sphere has been known through O.T. times, Abraham being the most known example, but stays more on the background. The heavenly sphere belongs to the Kingdom of God, the earthly sphere to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Regeneration is about Israel as a nation, accepting finally their position when they accept the Messiah in His second coming. Applying this undiscriminated unto individual gentile believers is therefore wrong.
Yes it is a necessary step to be regenerated by God, but that is only the beginning in the current dispensation, not the end.

Aristarkos

OK. Thanks for the answer. We are so far apart that I doubt that further discussion will solve the issue. God bless.

percho
Sep 29th 2017, 04:49 AM
All good questions. I will investigate further. I am taking my cues from Titus 3:5, where Paul associates regeneration with a renewal performed by the Holy Spirit. But perhaps I need to reexamine this issue. Anything else come to mind?

I might ask relative to Titus, What does regeneration allow washing of, what is washed away? And what would the cleansing agent be?

Consider this verse. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

Is regeneration seen in that verse? Washing? What is washed away? What is the agent?

Would that be what would save someone?

What allowed the Holy Spirit to be poured out upon all flesh?

“This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33

John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

What about? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18

Washing of regeneration?

Once again, twice is the word used.

CadyandZoe
Sep 29th 2017, 12:27 PM
I might ask relative to Titus, What does regeneration allow washing of, what is washed away? And what would the cleansing agent be?

Consider this verse. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

Is regeneration seen in that verse? Washing? What is washed away? What is the agent?

Would that be what would save someone?

What allowed the Holy Spirit to be poured out upon all flesh?

“This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33

John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

What about? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18

Washing of regeneration?

Once again, twice is the word used.

It helps to remind ourselves that there are two main aspects or effects of sin: 1) the inevitable punishment for sin, and 2) the inevitable transgression. The death of Jesus on the cross solves our first problem with sin: the inevitable punishment. For those who identify with what the cross represents, i.e. I deserve to be condemned to death for my sins, God is willing to forgive that person and set him or her free from punishment.

Not only this, but God's grace goes much further. Not only does God forgive our sins, he ultimately removes the inevitability that we will sin in the future. In order to accomplish this, God performs a miracle in the "inward man", internally in our inner being, which effects both our behavior and our disposition.

Having come to a firm understanding of sin and how it impacts both our future destiny and our current life experience, we examine Titus 3:5 to see which aspect is the subject of Paul's discourse.

In chapter 3 of Titus Paul exhorts Titus to remind the church that regeneration and renewal imply a profound change in behavior. We were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, and enslaved to lust, but now we are ready for every good deed. We are to abandon unprofitable behaviors and avoid foolish controversies and be careful to engage in good deeds and everything that is profitable to men. Here then, in this context, the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit deals with the second aspect of sin: the inevitability of transgression. Having been regenerated and while the Holy Spirit continues the renewal process, the one whom God is saving is free to abandon foolishness and disobedience in order to engage in good deeds. Given his argument, we understand that regeneration and renewal touches the inwardness of the individual to such a profound degree, one is struck by the extreme and firmly established change that overtakes the child of God as he or she moves from the foolish, disobedient, and enslaved individual toward the wise, obedient, and free individual.

percho
Sep 29th 2017, 05:59 PM
It helps to remind ourselves that there are two main aspects or effects of sin: 1) the inevitable punishment for sin, and 2) the inevitable transgression. The death of Jesus on the cross solves our first problem with sin: the inevitable punishment. For those who identify with what the cross represents, i.e. I deserve to be condemned to death for my sins, God is willing to forgive that person and set him or her free from punishment.

Not only this, but God's grace goes much further. Not only does God forgive our sins, he ultimately removes the inevitability that we will sin in the future. In order to accomplish this, God performs a miracle in the "inward man", internally in our inner being, which effects both our behavior and our disposition.

Having come to a firm understanding of sin and how it impacts both our future destiny and our current life experience, we examine Titus 3:5 to see which aspect is the subject of Paul's discourse.

In chapter 3 of Titus Paul exhorts Titus to remind the church that regeneration and renewal imply a profound change in behavior. We were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, and enslaved to lust, but now we are ready for every good deed. We are to abandon unprofitable behaviors and avoid foolish controversies and be careful to engage in good deeds and everything that is profitable to men. Here then, in this context, the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit deals with the second aspect of sin: the inevitability of transgression. Having been regenerated and while the Holy Spirit continues the renewal process, the one whom God is saving is free to abandon foolishness and disobedience in order to engage in good deeds. Given his argument, we understand that regeneration and renewal touches the inwardness of the individual to such a profound degree, one is struck by the extreme and firmly established change that overtakes the child of God as he or she moves from the foolish, disobedient, and enslaved individual toward the wise, obedient, and free individual.

A question for you and all who read this post.

Titus 3:6 KJV Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

What made that, in bold, possible relative to the following statement made by Jesus? Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7 KJV

What all is inclusive in the, "if I go not away," making it possible for the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to be shed on us? Is what is stated in Acts 2:32,33 relative to, "If I go not away"?

John 14:16 KJV And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Is there a path for the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, From the Father through the Son unto us?

What is it the earnest of?

I believe, regeneration. See Matt 19:28 properly punctuated: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The second time it is used.