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DavidC
Apr 20th 2018, 07:40 PM
What is this verse talking about?

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Thanks.

jayne
Apr 20th 2018, 08:08 PM
Paul isn't teaching baptism for the dead.

The whole chapter of 15 is about making sure that the church at Corinth fully understood about a physical and literal bodily [new body] resurrection which apparently they did not.

In this passages he uses some arguments to support his case.

"Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”


Even false religions [they] who baptize for the dead understand that there will be a resurrection.
If there is no resurrection, then why does he put in life in grave danger every hour of every day?
If there is no resurrection - what's the point of anything? He says if there's no resurrection then just party like there's no tomorrow.

DavidC
Apr 20th 2018, 08:21 PM
Paul isn't teaching baptism for the dead.

The whole chapter of 15 is about making sure that the church at Corinth fully understood about a physical and literal bodily [new body] resurrection which apparently they did not.

In this passages he uses some arguments to support his case.

"Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”


Even false religions [they] who baptize for the dead understand that there will be a resurrection.
If there is no resurrection, then why does he put in life in grave danger every hour of every day?
If there is no resurrection - what's the point of anything? He says if there's no resurrection then just party like there's no tomorrow.



I realize baptizing the dead is not a command or something we would do, but couldn't figure out why he would put it that way. It's a weird way to explain it in my opinion.

Paul does explain it in a way that makes it sound like baptizing the dead was something people did, like it was a normal occurance. Not advocating just trying to figure out why it was explained this way.

Walls
Apr 21st 2018, 11:49 AM
What is this verse talking about?

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Thanks.

In 1st Corinthians 15 Paul combats the teaching that there is no resurrection. Unwittingly, this belief still permeates the Church. If the current Christian doctrine that when a man dies he goes to heaven is correct, then there is no need for a resurrection. So Paul gives detailed reasons for a firm belief in resurrection in this Chapter. First, let me make clear that the resurrection in the Bible is ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY about the BODY. Resurrection is NEVER used concerning the soul of man or the spirit of man. Let me give three reasons why the resurrection is so important;

Man is part of the physical universe which displays God. He is made from the earth for ruling the earth. Our Lord Jesus, the Leading Man took flesh and blood for Himself and was resurrected "flesh and bones" (Heb.2:14; Lk.24:39). If there is no resurrection then God's "image and likeness" on earth is removed.
Man is the Temple of God. His BODY is the CARRIER of God. God's desire is to dwell WITH men (as in Israel's case), but is pleased to dwell IN men (as the Church is). God's first three Homes on earth where the Tabernacle of the Wilderness and two Temples in Jerusalem. But now He is pleased to dwell in man and in John 2:21 we have a direct statement by our Lord Jesus Himself that, "... he spake of the Temple of his BODY". If there is no resurrection then God does not get His Temple. Death, His enemy, will have prevailed against the councils of the Almighty.
The Church, among other things, is that "... now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Eph.3:9-11). The Church is vitally important to "God's Eternal Purpose" and death breaks down the Church because the Church is made with our BODIES (1st Cor.6:15). That is why our Lord Jesus says in Matthew 16:18, "... I will build my church; and the gates of HADES shall not prevail against it". "Hades" is the place in the heart of the earth where the souls of dead men go at death". If these GATES are forever closed, men will stay dead and the Church will NEVER be built.

Going back to the first point, man is made for ruling the earth (Gen.1:26-28). But the sinful body is not fit for ruling. In 1st Corinthians 15:50 we learn, "... that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption". That is why God drove Adam from the Tree of Life in Genesis 3:22. He gives the reason; "... lest he put forth his hand, and take ALSO of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". The word "also" implies that Adam had not yet eaten of it, and God did not want a man in his corrupted body living forever. God already had the plan to recover man for ruling the earth when He blocked the way to the Tree of Life. He was going to let the old, corrupted and sinful body die, and then give the man a new body in resurrection (2nd Cor.5:1-4). But as for man ruling the earth, for this, God made a Covenant with Abraham. Initially the Covenant was for the Good Land of Canaan, but later, when Abraham proved his trust in God for all things, God expanded this Covenant to cover the whole earth (Rom.4:13).

But this Covenant made with Abraham, although a Covenant of Promise, and although God alone passed through the divided offerings (Gen.15), He still gives man ONE thing to do for his side of the agreement. He, the man, is to be circumcised. Now, circumcision was good enough for Israel and the Land of Canaan and for Male heirs, but when God expanded the Covenant to the whole earth, He declared the Body to be unfit for this job and required that the whole body be killed, or cut off. But God needs us alive for various reasons, so He instituted a replacement for circumcision that would keep the idea of the flesh being cut off, but would encompass the whole body. So He changed circumcision of the foreskin (which was a "sign" - Rom.4:11), to FULL IMMERSION IN WATER - Baptism - a new and expanded "sign". In Colossians 2:10-12 we learn;


10 "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."


verse 10 gives the context - "all principality and power" - that is, the ruling or the Kingdom
verse 11 says that for this ruling we must be circumcised as per the Covenant with Abraham
verse 11 says that this circumcision is new - it is "made WITHOUT hands"
verse 11 says that it is "the circumcision OF Christ". Now Christ's WHOLE BODY was cut off on the cross. And we must now enter that circumcision (which, of course, was a "sign")
verse 12 says that this "sign" is now a "sign" of the whole body being IMMERSED in the death waters - Baptism

Now we can see that if a man wants to have eternal life and be a son of God, he must BELIEVE and be born-again (Jn.1:12-13, 3:3). But this rebirth will only allow a man to SEE the Kingdom (Jn.3:3). That is, he will be resurrected when Christ comes to earth to set up His Kingdom and watch it happen. But if he wants ENTER the Kingdom as a co-king with Christ, he must ALSO be Baptized (Jn.3:5). If he wants to ENTER the Kingdom he must fulfill his part of the Covenant of Abraham and be "cut off", not in circumcision anymore, but in the symbolic cutting off of the whole body under water. To be "fully saved", a man must do three things. (1) He must BELIEVE and have his sins removed. (2) He must BELIEVE and be born again. (3) He must be made a ruler of this earth. God wanted, in Genesis 1:26-28 (1) men like Him, and (2) men ruling. So if a man BELIEVES he gets to be a son of God, have eternal life and has his sins removed. But if he wants to be ruler in Christ's Kingdom, he must do all of these PLUS enter Abraham's Covenant. And the WAY into Abraham's Covenant is, for the Church, BAPTISM.

But many Christians do not understand this, and/or a just rebels. They refuse Baptism. What will become of them? Well, they will be resurrected with the rest of the Christians, but they will not be appointed kings over the earth. So, in Corinth, where all manner of problems beset the Church, one of them was that Christians had refused Baptism AND THEY DIED IN THIS CONDITION OF REBELLION. Their families and friends later learned of Baptism and suddenly realized that their relation, friend or loved-one, had died without being Baptized and would of course be raised with them but would be found unworthy of being a co-king with Christ. So they did a kind of "PROXY" Baptism. They thought that they could get Baptized for someone else.

So Paul uses this example to stress that many believed in resurrection so much so that will attempt to put things right before the resurrection. But the question then is, "does Paul identify with such a practice of 'proxy' Baptism"? The answer is of course NO! How do we know that? We know that Paul did not agree with proxy Baptism because he uses the word "THEY". In EIGHT verses in 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 Paul uses the the pronoun "we", meaning he identifies with the rest of the Church at Corinth. But when Paul wants to make a CONTRAST, he uses the word "THEY". Paul uses the example of THEM who try to Baptize for their loved ones to show that even the most erroneous Christians still believe in the resurrection. So, this verse, even in its negativity, shows that all Christians believe firmly in the Coming resurrection.

Hope this helps.

randyk
Apr 21st 2018, 03:35 PM
What is this verse talking about?

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Thanks.

I've heard that this was a common occurrence back in Paul's day. Certainly, Christians were engaging in baptism on behalf of Jesus. However, if all of these were dead, for whom people were being baptized, what was the purpose? If Jesus himself was dead, and remained dead, then why get baptized on his behalf?