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mel35215
May 29th 2005, 01:27 AM
What exactly does the apostle Paul mean in the phrase, "when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive...." (Eph.4:8) whom did our Lord lead captive?

journey360
May 29th 2005, 02:06 PM
What exactly does the apostle Paul mean in the phrase, "when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive...." (Eph.4:8) whom did our Lord lead captive?mel35215, Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God is referring to our ascended Messiah, who is triumphant over Satan and his host of demons. The Lord led Satan captive. (Speaking those things that are not, as though they are...in a matter of time) Jesus is distributing gifts to "His" people. It is the faithful stewardship of our gifts on earth that will determine our position of service in Christ's reign.

If you take a look at Pslams 68:18 David says the same thing. However, he is referring to when God delivered "His" people from Egypt and brought them out with treasures from the Egyptians. The gifts were used by the people of Israel to build the tabernacle where God might dwell. They were good stewards with the gifts God gave to them. They did not bury them, nor were they selfish with them. Of the gifts God gave to them, they consecrated them and gave back to God. Of the gifts God gave them, they gave back to God in the form of the tabernacle. Thereby giving of the fat thereof just like Abel did. Basically, they gave more back.

Question is, are we going to be good stewards with the gifts that God has given to us as the people of Israel were? Do we really want good positions of service in Christ's reign? Choices.

ChristopherE
May 29th 2005, 02:17 PM
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

uses psalm

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

To answer your question directly, we are prisoners of sin and death until we accept Christ. That's what I understand to be taken captive by Christ's death and ressurection. The gifts given to man is the Holy Spirit and life and righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

enarchay
Sep 25th 2007, 12:19 PM
What exactly does the apostle Paul mean in the phrase, "when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive...." (Eph.4:8) whom did our Lord lead captive?

Captivity. E.g., Satan, death, sin, etc. All that makes man captive, Christ overcame with his death and resurrection.

enarchay
Sep 25th 2007, 12:20 PM
mel35215, Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God is referring to our ascended Messiah, who is triumphant over Satan and his host of demons. The Lord led Satan captive. (Speaking those things that are not, as though they are...in a matter of time) Jesus is distributing gifts to "His" people. It is the faithful stewardship of our gifts on earth that will determine our position of service in Christ's reign.

If you take a look at Pslams 68:18 David says the same thing. However, he is referring to when God delivered "His" people from Egypt and brought them out with treasures from the Egyptians. The gifts were used by the people of Israel to build the tabernacle where God might dwell. They were good stewards with the gifts God gave to them. They did not bury them, nor were they selfish with them. Of the gifts God gave to them, they consecrated them and gave back to God. Of the gifts God gave them, they gave back to God in the form of the tabernacle. Thereby giving of the fat thereof just like Abel did. Basically, they gave more back.

Question is, are we going to be good stewards with the gifts that God has given to us as the people of Israel were? Do we really want good positions of service in Christ's reign? Choices.



Good points, especially about the gifts.

Teke
Sep 25th 2007, 02:01 PM
What exactly does the apostle Paul mean in the phrase, "when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive...." (Eph.4:8) whom did our Lord lead captive?

Hbr 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage(subject to captivity).

Resurrection He ascended and 'gave gifts' by sending the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

RogerW
Sep 25th 2007, 03:24 PM
Hbr 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage(subject to captivity).

Resurrection He ascended and 'gave gifts' by sending the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Thanks Teke, this is a good point. Does the Holy Spirit ever die? If the Holy Spirit does not die, where does He go, or what does He do when believers whom He has been sent to indwell do physically die? Does He leave believers upon physical death? Or does He continue to dwell with them in spiritual aionian zoe [life]? Does Christ withdraw, or rescind the gifts of the Holy Spirit when believers bodily die in Him?

Blessings,
RW

Teke
Sep 25th 2007, 03:57 PM
Thanks Teke, this is a good point. Does the Holy Spirit ever die? If the Holy Spirit does not die, where does He go, or what does He do when believers whom He has been sent to indwell do physically die? Does He leave believers upon physical death? Or does He continue to dwell with them in spiritual aionian zoe [life]? Does Christ withdraw, or rescind the gifts of the Holy Spirit when believers bodily die in Him?

Blessings,
RW

Well we know the spirit doesn't die as it belongs to God who can never die because He is Life.

Jesus described this,

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


And we are told,


Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.



1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

We can only imagine.:pray:

Steven3
Sep 26th 2007, 11:56 AM
Out of interest:
4:8 Wherefore he saith - That is, in reference to which God saith by David, Having ascended on high, he led captivity captive - He triumphed over all his enemies, Satan, sin, and death, which had before enslaved all the world: alluding to the custom of ancient conquerors, who led those they had conquered in chains after them. And, as they also used to give donatives to the people, at their return from victory, so he gave gifts to men - Both the ordinary and extraordinary gifts of the Spirit. Psa 68:18.
And
4:7-16 Unto every believer is given some gift of grace, for their mutual help. All is given as seems best to Christ to bestow upon every one. He received for them, that he might give to them, a large measure of gifts and graces; particularly the gift of the Holy Ghost. Not a mere head knowledge, or bare acknowledging Christ to be the Son of God, but such as brings trust and obedience. There is a fulness in Christ, and a measure of that fulness given in the counsel of God to every believer; but we never come to the perfect measure till we come to heaven. God's children are growing, as long as they are in this world; and the Christian's growth tends to the glory of Christ. The more a man finds himself drawn out to improve in his station, and according to his measure, all that he has received, to the spiritual good of others, he may the more certainly believe that he has the grace of sincere love and charity rooted in his heart.

Good to find neither Wesley nor Henry giving any credence to the idea that it refers to Jesus "taking souls up to heaven" while he was "harrowing hell" for three days.

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 12:00 PM
Good to find neither Wesley nor Henry giving any credence to the idea that it refers to Jesus "taking souls up to heaven" while he was "harrowing hell" for three days.

That was the opinion I was expecting to find, the harrowing of hell one.

arliewebb
Jul 15th 2008, 04:16 AM
Why don't you think that Jesus led the souls that died in faith(waiting in a place for departed souls) out of captivity (just like the children of Isreal from Pharoh?
That is what I believe "led captivity captive" means. He certainly didn't put Satan into captivity, that won't happen until the Millinium when Satan is chained for a thousand years. Paul even says, I am a prisoner of Christ. Those like Moses, Abraham, etc. they were all waiting for Jesus to come and He did and He "descended", led all those who were God's children out of the bondage of death. We are only free in Jesus! The type of the children of Isreal out of Egypt is the same thing. Moses did not lead Pharoh out of Eygpt. He led the children of Isreal out.

My heart's Desire
Jul 15th 2008, 04:27 AM
Jesus led the souls that died in faith out of captivity just like the children of Isreal from Pharoh?
That is what I believe "led captivity captive" means.
I believe it does mean that! Just as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:40

My heart's Desire
Jul 15th 2008, 04:30 AM
And I just saw what an old thread this is that has been resurrected! :D i didn't do it!

arliewebb
Jul 15th 2008, 04:55 AM
Yes, I don't know how this happened. This was my first time with Bible Chat. That thread came up. I like your name, by the way! My Hearts Desire! I assume it is Jesus!
Glad to hear you believe the same way about "led captivity captive.:bounce:

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 15th 2008, 11:48 AM
Out of interest:
And[font=Arial]

Good to find neither Wesley nor Henry giving any credence to the idea that it refers to Jesus "taking souls up to heaven" while he was "harrowing hell" for three days.
-------------------------------------------------------

Can you give some clarity as to your position on this ? "Where are" those righteous souls that were carried into Abrahams' bosom prior to Christ's coming and resurrection today?

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 15th 2008, 12:27 PM
Why don't you think that Jesus led the souls that died in faith(waiting in a place for departed souls) out of captivity (just like the children of Isreal from Pharoh?
That is what I believe "led captivity captive" means. He certainly didn't put Satan into captivity, that won't happen until the Millinium when Satan is chained for a thousand years. Paul even says, I am a prisoner of Christ. Those like Moses, Abraham, etc. they were all waiting for Jesus to come and He did and He "descended", led all those who were God's children out of the bondage of death. We are only free in Jesus! The type of the children of Isreal out of Egypt is the same thing. Moses did not lead Pharoh out of Eygpt. He led the children of Isreal out.
-----------------------------------------------

I also agree with you.... this was prophesied in the Book of Psalms chapter 68.... when you look at the word 'led, captive' in the Hebrew and Greek.. that is an active verb.. and the Hebrews translates to 'carry away, to lead away, to lead forth, to bring forth, lead or carry away..the greek means to capture and lead away'...

Jesus is doing something.. carry away or leading away something or somebody... that is captive... Obviously He triumphed over Death Hell and the Grave.. He sets captives free translating them from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.. leading them out of that darkness into light.... setting the captives free..


but as a part of this verse notice what happens first... He ascended on High... which means He ascended after His resurrection...and along with that leading captivity captive. If you dig into the word translation.. He leads somebody out or carries them away according to the Hebrew or Greek... as He ascends... into Heaven.. to offer up His Own Blood to the Father .. as His Heavenly Priesthood which is Eternal commanded Him to do.. perfect obedience. Sprinkling the mercy seat with His Own blood.. allowing those who were in Abraham's bosom to enter the Third Heaven or Paradise where Jesus is now and those who go to sleep or die physically in Him go immediately. We no longer go into Abrahams bosom as Paul talks about a man who was 'caught up' into the 3rd Heaven and was told not to speak of those thingshe saw or heard...... He was 'caught up' not going down into Abraham's bosom.... you see the contrasts there before and after the crucifixtion and resurrection of the Lord Jesus the Christ.. and How He has now entered the Holy of Holies once and for all.... the Eternal One offering up His Own blood and thus making a way for captivity to be led captive as He ascended........

RJ Mac
Jul 15th 2008, 01:31 PM
He led captivity captive - to the Jew the grave was a prison, a place where
the souls of all men went, Hades, but the righteous desired to go to be with
God in heaven. Jesus shows us what Hades is like in Lk.16: with the story
of the rich man and Lazarus.

When Jesus died He went to the heart of the earth and spent 3 days with
the righteous in Abraham's bosom. Teaching them He was the one whom
they read about in the OT, the Messiah who came to establish His kingdom. And
the gates of Hades would not overpower His assembly (church) Mt.16:18
Then He was resurrected, spent time on earth, then ascended on high taking
His blood into heaven Heb.9:11-14; and Abraham's bosom Eph.4:8;

The righteous had to wait in Hades because their sins had not been forgiven
by the blood, they were not perfect Heb.11:39,40; But now when He
ascended Jesus took those in the prison of Hades, the righteous in Abraham's
bosom to heaven, the way was open, through His flesh, the veil had been
torn open, Heb.10:19-22; And we see the spirits of righteous men made
perfect in heaven, Heb.12:22-24 along with the church of the firstborn.

Now when a Christian dies He does not go to Hades but enters the
heavenly throne room, as we see in 2Cor.12:1-4; Jesus led the righteous
of the OT into heaven and He sent gifts of the Spirit to those on earth.

It makes no sense to take Satan, his demons, and death into heaven.
When Jesus cast out demons they left His presence, fearing He was to
send them into the Abyss. Satan is not now a captive held in heaven,
his demons are in the abyss Jude 6 and death has not yet been destroyed. Rev.20:14;

I believe we go to heaven when we die because Jesus made the way
possible by dying for our sins and the sins of the whole world, so even
the OT righteous are in heaven today. He is not a God of the dead but
a God of the living.

RJ

My heart's Desire
Jul 16th 2008, 03:04 AM
-----------------------------------------------

I also agree with you.... this was prophesied in the Book of Psalms chapter 68.... when you look at the word 'led, captive' in the Hebrew and Greek.. that is an active verb.. and the Hebrews translates to 'carry away, to lead away, to lead forth, to bring forth, lead or carry away..the greek means to capture and lead away'...

Jesus is doing something.. carry away or leading away something or somebody... that is captive... Obviously He triumphed over Death Hell and the Grave.. He sets captives free translating them from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.. leading them out of that darkness into light.... setting the captives free..


but as a part of this verse notice what happens first... He ascended on High... which means He ascended after His resurrection...and along with that leading captivity captive. If you dig into the word translation.. He leads somebody out or carries them away according to the Hebrew or Greek... as He ascends... into Heaven.. to offer up His Own Blood to the Father .. as His Heavenly Priesthood which is Eternal commanded Him to do.. perfect obedience. Sprinkling the mercy seat with His Own blood.. allowing those who were in Abraham's bosom to enter the Third Heaven or Paradise where Jesus is now and those who go to sleep or die physically in Him go immediately. We no longer go into Abrahams bosom as Paul talks about a man who was 'caught up' into the 3rd Heaven and was told not to speak of those thingshe saw or heard...... He was 'caught up' not going down into Abraham's bosom.... you see the contrasts there before and after the crucifixtion and resurrection of the Lord Jesus the Christ.. and How He has now entered the Holy of Holies once and for all.... the Eternal One offering up His Own blood and thus making a way for captivity to be led captive as He ascended........
Not only that if we remember the story of the rich and poor man we know that it is paradise and that the poor man was at Abraham's bosom so not only did the Lord Jesus take the poor man He also took Abraham too.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2008, 10:12 PM
Not only that if we remember the story of the rich and poor man we know that it is paradise and that the poor man was at Abraham's bosom so not only did the Lord Jesus take the poor man He also took Abraham too.


I agree with you 100 percent.....