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PeterJ
Jul 11th 2005, 12:06 PM
Bible say's to kill,murder someone is a sin.

If God told someone saved, to kill some people, that make's it ok ?and not a sin?
Weather it save other lives or not by killing them.?

Just a question on my mind as i think God told someone in the bible to kill.
Can't remember the verse ?
If they did it's not a sin?

Yours Peter

SammeyDW
Jul 11th 2005, 12:21 PM
It is a sin to murder someone out of anger.
However it is not a sin to kill someone when defending your life / the life of someone you care for.
An example is in the OT God's people were told to kill the Philistines.
But this is ok, only because the Philistines had already made war with God's people and made it clear that if God's people can't kill them then they will destroy God's people.
So in the OT basically God was giving His people permission to use deadly force but only to defend themselves.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 12:31 PM
"If God told someone saved, to kill some people"

That should be a big red flag.

God tells people, saved and unsaved, to kill people all the time it seems. Mothers killing their children, fathers killing their wives and children, children killing brothers, sisters and parents, strangers killing strangers at the behest of others - the military if full of these types.

All of them killing because of God and country, or some little voice inside told them to.

Killing for God.
Which god I wonder?

Surely not the Living God who is God of the living.

SammeyDW
Jul 11th 2005, 12:36 PM
That is basically what I was trying to point out.
The Living God only allows you to kill if you are defending someone's life.
However the god of this world, does not make any distinction between killing and murder.

Kendon
Jul 11th 2005, 12:37 PM
A true Christian can never join the army and be a soldier on foreign soil.

Because God is the one who decides on who's to live and who's to die, not the politics of man, which are corrupted.
Leaders who claim to work for the Lord and send men to die in wars abroad are serpents if you ask me, tools of the unrightious and the viciously vile.

A true Christian can only kill if it's self-defense, or if the Lord himself ordered him to do so.

Self-defense here is not going abroad to win a war, but in personal conditions, when one is faced with immediate threats.

PeterJ
Jul 11th 2005, 12:48 PM
The thing i realy did not like, was my old pastor was saying to people in the church to join the army if God told you,or you feel you should join.

I wonder if that is right for him to say that as it would lead to killing.

Peter

SammeyDW
Jul 11th 2005, 01:19 PM
The big thing for me would be, are we defending our country or another country from invasion.
Or are we the invaders.

Frink
Jul 11th 2005, 01:55 PM
A true Christian can never join the army and be a soldier on foreign soil.

Because God is the one who decides on who's to live and who's to die, not the politics of man, which are corrupted.
Leaders who claim to work for the Lord and send men to die in wars abroad are serpents if you ask me, tools of the unrightious and the viciously vile.

A true Christian can only kill if it's self-defense, or if the Lord himself ordered him to do so.

Self-defense here is not going abroad to win a war, but in personal conditions, when one is faced with immediate threats.

Sorry that is totally not going to fly with me. So you are saying that the men who served in WW2 were not true Christians and that God was behind Hitler and that we should have just not killed any Nazi's and just let Hitler take over Europe???

I say no, God does send Christians to save people, and to fight in wars, sorry to say but what if God intended on one person killing another to save the souls of many?

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 01:58 PM
A true Christian can never join the army and be a soldier on foreign soil.

Because God is the one who decides on who's to live and who's to die, not the politics of man, which are corrupted.
Leaders who claim to work for the Lord and send men to die in wars abroad are serpents if you ask me, tools of the unrightious and the viciously vile.

A true Christian can only kill if it's self-defense, or if the Lord himself ordered him to do so.

Self-defense here is not going abroad to win a war, but in personal conditions, when one is faced with immediate threats.
That logic makes what Israel did, under the direction of God, a sin. Your logic is skewed if in fact we are truly to get our doctrine from Scripture as Paul said.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 02:00 PM
The thing i realy did not like, was my old pastor was saying to people in the church to join the army if God told you,or you feel you should join.

I wonder if that is right for him to say that as it would lead to killing.

Peter
We are not to murder. That is a far cry from a soldier going to war under command from the leaders of the country that God put into that place.... don't you think?

Magnetic
Jul 11th 2005, 02:09 PM
The Israelites didn't only just kill in defense though. They were the agressors on many occasions.

SammeyDW
Jul 11th 2005, 02:11 PM
Examples please Magnetic.

Kendon
Jul 11th 2005, 02:15 PM
Sorry that is totally not going to fly with me. So you are saying that the men who served in WW2 were not true Christians and that God was behind Hitler and that we should have just not killed any Nazi's and just let Hitler take over Europe???

God's ways are hard to understand.

For all the ills of that war and that vile creature came forth some hope and goodness.

After all, Israel as it stands today is a result from that war.

God works in mysterious ways my friend.


I say no, God does send Christians to save people, and to fight in wars, sorry to say but what if God intended on one person killing another to save the souls of many?

The emphasis being here that GOD sends Christians to save people.

Let's make something clear here.

When Bush mentions his crusade and God when going to war, is he right?
By that same token are those who claim he wages war on Islam and Allah right?

Allah, Yahweh, Jehova, they are the same God. God is to muslims, what the God of the Jews is to us.

Many men have claimed to fight the battles and the wars that the Lord wanted them to fight, and because of them, many have died, and many innocents have died as well.

Ask yourself this question, what we so gracefully call Collateral Damage, what is that in the eyes of God, and what does God think about those who cause it?

Children, women, innocent lives whisked away in the blink of an eye, souls.

EarlyCall
Jul 11th 2005, 02:18 PM
I just love it to death (pardon the pun) when someone claims that killing is wrong in the eyes of God. And yet God commanded that some die for certain crimes, that some be stoned, etc. How then does one reconcile this without understanding that killing is not necessarily murder. See dictionary for better understanding.

Then we have some that claim it is wrong to be in the armed forces. Now that's fine as a personal conviction, but don't claim God said so. You won't find that in the Bible. What you will find is God's endorsement of the government and it's right to wield the sword and punish. That sword was not wielded only to punish the criminal, but also to wage war. Of course, the war should be justified.

Now Paul, speaking in his day concerning the government, mentions the sword. Everyone then under the Roman empire's rule understood exactly what that sword stood for and all it meant. Nowhere do we see Paul condeming this, but rather we do see Paul defending it!

Now it's one thing to have a personal conviction, but don't try to make it gospel according to God when you cannot do so Biblically. And please don't use the argument love your enemies - not unless you can explain away what Paul said as I've pointed out above. To do so, don't merely claim it ain't so. Explain why what Paul said is either not so or doesn't apply. Simply claiming it doesn't won't cut it.

There is a difference between defending yourself from an attacker and not defending yourself from someone persecuting you for being a Christian. For those that cannot see this difference, follow your convictions, but don't claim it is something God says is so according to you. It simply isn't Biblical at all. When Jesus spoke to loving your enemy, He was not referring to the government. To claim He was you need to show some evidence for that - your opinion is not enough. Jesus was quite able to draw the distinction between the government and us as individuals. Since He could make this distinction, assuming He meant the government and us as individuals is an assumption not borne out by the scripture - and mere opinion does not make it so.

God did not forbid the jews from defending themselves, and in fact it was not a case of defending themselves many times when they went to war - by God's own command. Now since this practice was God approved, one would assume if it was no longer to be the case, Jesus, Paul or someone would have addressed it quite clearly as referring to the government. You simply have to be just plain dumb to not do so with such an important issue and matter as this. And we know God ain't just plain dumb.

There is not one of us that would not say to someone concerning an issue of such vital importance, why didn't you tell me, or why didn't you tell me clearly. You know how important this is. Well, God would have made it very clear. And He did, when Paul spoke about the government wielding the sword - and by God's approval. Now you don't wield a sword in order to sign welfare checks!

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 02:23 PM
The Israelites didn't only just kill in defense though. They were the agressors on many occasions.
You are right. By todays standard they certainly invaded lands. They wiped out entire tribes of nations and that is where folks fall apart here. They say things like it is sin but if that is the case then God caused Israel to sin which doctrinally falls apart because that can't be.

War is horrible but regardless of how horrible war might be... there are times it necessary. Folks say stuff like this and then another reads through Samuel and they read where David slew 200 Philistine men and cut off their foreskin just to marry the King's daughter. Was that murder... no. They were at war with the Philistine army. Gross yes, and today it is even barbaric. But regardless... there was no murder involved.

qbee
Jul 11th 2005, 02:23 PM
In the the bible there was a difference betwenn killing and murdering.
There was also a diference under the law in how one was punished.
If one murdered that too were put to death under the law if it was
in self defense they were not put to death .. as that was not considered
cold blooded murder.. A soldier is allowed under the laws of God and the
the laws of the land to defend his country .. But not allowed to commit
cold blooded murder of another person under the law of God and the laws
of the land ..


PeterJ ...

You said your pastor said to join the Army of God.
What did he say the Army of God was ??

I am in the army of God ! :) I go in to battle everyday

Kendon
Jul 11th 2005, 02:24 PM
I just love it to death (pardon the pun) when someone claims that killing is wrong in the eyes of God. And yet God commanded that some die for certain crimes, that some be stoned, etc. How then does one reconcile this without understanding that killing is not necessarily murder. See dictionary for better understanding.

If you're going to bring the details up, then do you still agree with the sentence of stoning one to death for certain crimes? Do you forbid people from eating shellfish and wearing clothes made from different materials?


Then we have some that claim it is wrong to be in the armed forces. Now that's fine as a personal conviction, but don't claim God said so. You won't find that in the Bible. What you will find is God's endorsement of the government and it's right to wield the sword and punish. That sword was not wielded only to punish the criminal, but also to wage war. Of course, the war should be justified.

Who judges?

The problem with this is simple, which side is right? As neither side ever sees itself as wrong.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 02:27 PM
Allah, Yahweh, Jehova, they are the same God. God is to muslims, what the God of the Jews is to us.It is clear by this that your understanding of Scripture is seriously deficient.



Many men have claimed to fight the battles and the wars that the Lord wanted them to fight, and because of them, many have died, and many innocents have died as well.

Ask yourself this question, what we so gracefully call Collateral Damage, what is that in the eyes of God, and what does God think about those who cause it?

Children, women, innocent lives whisked away in the blink of an eye, souls.Have you ever read the Old Testament? Remember when God instructed them to wipe out entire nations from the face of the nasty now and now? Do you in fact believe that Scripture is God's word or do you hold to the idea that is is merely man written and therefore inspired but yet polluted by man's ideaology?

EarlyCall
Jul 11th 2005, 02:28 PM
If you're going to bring the details up, then do you still agree with the sentence of stoning one to death for certain crimes? Do you forbid people from eating shellfish and wearing clothes made from different materials?



Who judges?

The problem with this is simple, which side is right? As neither side ever sees itself as wrong.

Oh kendon, please. Now stop and think about what line of reasoning you are attempting here. No, I dont' play that game. God said for certain crimes death was the punishment. Now, do you agree this is a matter and issue of absolute vital importance in the lives of mankind? I'm sure you do. So YOU show me where God said to no longer punish people with the death penalty for such crimes. Simply because you don't like it doesn't make something not so.

I do not have to prove anything. You have to prove God no longer considers it so. So you show me where God in His Word said to no longer provide the death penalty for such crimes.

Can you do that?

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 02:28 PM
In the the bible there was a difference betwenn killing and murdering.
There was also a diference under the law in how one was punished.
If one murdered that too were put to death under the law if it was
in self defense they were not put to death .. as that was not considered
cold blooded murder.. A soldier is allowed under the laws of God and the
the laws of the land to defend his country .. But not allowed to commit
cold blooded murder of another person under the law of God and the laws
of the land ..


PeterJ ...

You said your pastor said to join the Army of God.
What did he say the Army of God was ??

I am in the army of God ! :) I go in to battle everyday
He said "Army IF God told you to do so" not Army OF God! :D Drink more coffee!

qbee
Jul 11th 2005, 02:40 PM
He said "Army IF God told you to do so" not Army OF God! :D Drink more coffee!


Sorry PeteJ ...
Oh I missed the IF ...:lol: Yes Im sure God calls men to protect and defend
the innocent such as police officers, soldiers, firemen .. etc etc... God is not
going to leave us unprotected .. the laws of the land provides that for us under
Gods word .. that is the purpose for the law of the land .. and we are to live
under it and obey the law of the land .. we are under its authority ..



PP :)
yes for sure I do need more coffee ..
got some brewing ..:)

Magnetic
Jul 11th 2005, 03:39 PM
Examples please Magnetic.

Numbers:16-18 - Midianites even POW [except virgin girls, 31:14-18].
Deuteronomy 2:30-34 - Heshbon [God makes King Sihon's spirit stubborn...]
Deuteronomy 7:1-5 - Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hevites, and Jebusites [They occupied the land promised by God to the Israelites].
Joshua 6:20-21 - Jericho
Joshua 8:24-25 - Ai
Joshua 10:1-14 - The kings of the Amorites [they got word of the conquering Israelites, so went out to war with them, were defeted, ran off, and as they fled, were killed by the Israelites and large hailstones].
Joshua 10:28-40 - Makkadah to Libnah, to Lachish, to Eglon, to Hegron, to Debir]
Joshua 11:10-11, 20-23 - Hazor
Judges 1:8 - Jerusalem
Judges 1:17 - Simeonites and Zephath
Judges 1:23-25 - Bethel
Judges 11:29-39 - Ammonites [as well as Jephthah's own daughter, since she was the first thing that came out of his home].
Judges 20:48 - Their own tribe of Benjamin.
Judges 21:8-10 - Their own tribe of Mizpah [for not assembling to attack the tribe of Benjamin].
1 Samuel 6:19 - Some men of Beth Shemesh [for looking at the Ark of the Covenent].
1 Samuel 15:3-8 - Amalek

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 05:45 PM
Oh kendon, please. Now stop and think about what line of reasoning you are attempting here. No, I dont' play that game. God said for certain crimes death was the punishment. Now, do you agree this is a matter and issue of absolute vital importance in the lives of mankind? I'm sure you do. So YOU show me where God said to no longer punish people with the death penalty for such crimes. Simply because you don't like it doesn't make something not so.

I do not have to prove anything. You have to prove God no longer considers it so. So you show me where God in His Word said to no longer provide the death penalty for such crimes.

Can you do that?
John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is where God tells us to live by a higher standard. Not one of punishment and retribution, but of forgiveness and grace.

You want to say that Jesus only means this on a personal level, and it does not apply to the government and wars. I disagree. Governments are made up of individuals, and based upon those individuals' values. So it all comes back to the individual after all.

Yes, Jesus taught us how we should act as an individual. And as an individual we should always hold to those truths, even if someone, or a government, says otherwise.


If you want to accept what Paul says in his political correctness go ahead and follow Paul. I will accept what Jesus told me above all, and I will only accept what others say if it does not go against what Jesus has made so clear.


We are not judged as a group, as a club, or as a nation. We are all judged as individuals, one on one with the Lord. I do not think 'I was only following orders' is going to fly very far, because it was not the orders of the Lord that were followed, but the orders of other men.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 06:13 PM
John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is where God tells us to live by a higher standard. Not one of punishment and retribution, but of forgiveness and grace.

You want to say that Jesus only means this on a personal level, and it does not apply to the government and wars. I disagree. Governments are made up of individuals, and based upon those individuals' values. So it all comes back to the individual after all.

Yes, Jesus taught us how we should act as an individual. And as an individual we should always hold to those truths, even if someone, or a government, says otherwise.
No it doesn't just come down to the individual. Israel's rejection of Christ came back to everyone that was of that nationality regardless of their walk. However, come judgment day you are certainly correct but then enter biblical reality. If you believe that Jesus is God (no matter how you get there) then you cannot seperate what happened in the Old Testament as a nation. The Jews had those there Commandments given to them by God. It says that you cannot murder. After they played the desert dweller for their 40 year period of time and the younguns got to finally move on they sure enough went to war and God ordered it done. Mind you I would have to think that God knew perfectly the command He gave "you shall not murder" wouldn't you think the same? Nonetheless God had them move forward in battle.

If you are going to hold to that truth then you have to draw one of two conclusions.

1. Murder is wrong but war isn't necessarily murder.

2. War is in fact a sin and God ordered Israel to commit sin.

You can tap dance around this all you want I guess but Jesus did not in any way imply any such thing in regard to war.

Also folks might pay heed to what John the Baptist told the military folk.

Luke 3:14 And some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages."


Notice that John doesn't tell them to stop soldiering or never go to war. He confronts personal morality.

Then we have Jesus engaging a soldier.

Matthew 8:5 ¶And when He had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, entreating Him,
6 and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering great pain."
7 And He said to him, "I will come and heal him."
8 But the centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 "For I, too, am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, `Go!´ and he goes, and to another, `Come!´ and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this!´ and he does it."
10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled, and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
11 "And I say to you, that many shall come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven;
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
13 And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go your way; let it be done to you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very hour.


Nowhere do you read where Jesus tells the man to get out of the military. No where is he told to not fight a war. The fact that he was a soldier certainly afforded Jesus that opportunity if that was in fact something that Jesus was about doctrinally don't you think?

Then you have Cornelius.

Acts 10:22 And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you."
23 And so he invited them in and gave them lodging. ¶And on the next day he arose and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And on the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends.
25 And when it came about that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.
26 But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man."
27 And as he talked with him, he entered, and found many people assembled.
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
29 "That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. And so I ask for what reason you have sent for me."
30 And Cornelius said, "Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments,
31 and he said, `Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.
32 `Send therefore to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.´
33 "And so I sent to you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."
34 And opening his mouth, Peter said: ¶"I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him.
36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) --
37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him.
39 "And we are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And they also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
40 "God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us, who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
44 ¶While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

No where does Peter tell him, "hey bud... get thee out of the military because war is evil and sin!" Not implied in the least. Again, another wasted opportunity to set these guys straight! Or.... the absence of such command tells us that there is no such burden placed on a soldier.




If you want to accept what Paul says in his political correctness go ahead and follow Paul. I will accept what Jesus told me above all, and I will only accept what others say if it does not go against what Jesus has made so clear.That is interesting I suppose... I suppose you've been around long enough to know that I am far from Pauline only when it comes to Scripture. But the way I see this here... you are treading on some pretty thin ice.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 06:27 PM
Those arguements are just a way to justify yet more killing. Justifying it by what happened in the OT just disregards the changes Jesus implimented.

I agree that the role of the soldiers is not explicitly condemned, but implicitly I think it is from just about everything else Jesus said and did.

I am not on thin ice, but those that wish to justify killing another are on a very slippery slope.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 07:00 PM
Those arguements are just a way to justify yet more killing. Justifying it by what happened in the OT just disregards the changes Jesus implimented.

I agree that the role of the soldiers is not explicitly condemned, but implicitly I think it is from just about everything else Jesus said and did.

I am not on thin ice, but those that wish to justify killing another are on a very slippery slope.Is it not the same slope that God was on? Did God justify killing via war?

As to Jesus implementing changes... the only change that Jesus implemented was in pointing to the spirit of the law, teaching man that it wasn't simply the letter of the law we were to follow.

As Solomon in his wisdom said... wisdom is better than way. Never a question about that. But then there is a time for everything... sometimes even a time for war.

No one is justifying killing by saying that there is a time for war. God knows I wished we never had to fight them again. But we will. And if you want to go on believing that war is sin then you are calling God a sinner because God sure enough ordained it on many occassion. And you are going to be sorely dissappointed when Jesus returns because He will war as well. You can try and justify passiveness as well but that doesn't make it always the correct way. You guys are certainly on a nasty road calling it sin because man... you are calling God a sinner by doing so.

Speak out against war if you will because you just don't like it or you disagree with the why and whatnot. That's your right. But ponder that whole "it's sinful" stuff because your finger points at the God of all creation. And yeah... that is a slippery slope.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 07:15 PM
Is it not the same slope that God was on? Did God justify killing via war?

As to Jesus implementing changes... the only change that Jesus implemented was in pointing to the spirit of the law, teaching man that it wasn't simply the letter of the law we were to follow.

As Solomon in his wisdom said... wisdom is better than way. Never a question about that. But then there is a time for everything... sometimes even a time for war.

No one is justifying killing by saying that there is a time for war. God knows I wished we never had to fight them again. But we will. And if you want to go on believing that war is sin then you are calling God a sinner because God sure enough ordained it on many occassion. And you are going to be sorely dissappointed when Jesus returns because He will war as well. You can try and justify passiveness as well but that doesn't make it always the correct way. You guys are certainly on a nasty road calling it sin because man... you are calling God a sinner by doing so.

Speak out against war if you will because you just don't like it or you disagree with the why and whatnot. That's your right. But ponder that whole "it's sinful" stuff because your finger points at the God of all creation. And yeah... that is a slippery slope.
What God does and what men do are two different things. I do not call God a sinner. God has the right to do whatever He wishes, we do not. If God does something and tells us not to do that thing, then that thing is justified for God but not for us.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

God can send someone to kill another as He did in the OT. But since Jesus walked the earth, I do not know of any instance when the Lord actually appeared to tell someone to kill another. People always try and say that God is on their side, and that they are doing God's will by waging this war because so and such reasons. But in the end, it is their own blood lust or pride that is directing them, because Jesus set us on a different road that has nothing to do with violence.

PeterJ
Jul 11th 2005, 07:19 PM
Funny qbee.

Thxs for the verses all.

So it is and it;s not a sin? but in those day's they had to otherwise they lose there land and life.

Peter

Teke
Jul 11th 2005, 07:28 PM
God uses war to try mens hearts. When they left Egypt God did not want them to see war yet. He had not strengthened their hearts yet enough.

Exd 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not [through] the way of the land of the Philistines, although that [was] near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:


Jos 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people [that were] men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.


God also uses war to teach ppl and prove their hearts. Here in Judges we see Israel has settled down peacefully with the ppls of the land, and God is stirring them up again. These nations which the Lord left to prove Israel by, can be read of in Joshua 13:2-6, where Joshua is old and stricken in age and yet there is more to be done. This is where to read of the five lords mentioned below.



Jdg 3:1 Now these [are] the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, [even] as many [of Israel] as had not known all the wars of Canaan;

Jdg 3:2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof;

Jdg 3:3 [Namely], five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baalhermon unto the entering in of Hamath.

Even war has rules given by God. Rules about destroying land and ppl there. Rules about rebuilding and not letting the land waste away. Man is to have dominion over land, God gave him that dominion. War is one of the ways God builds and takes away kingdoms and nations. Such as He built Israel a nation, making them a name in the land.

mattlad22
Jul 11th 2005, 07:34 PM
do you ever wonder what would have happened if this world was operated by people of God?....wouldnt the leaders if quarreling amongst each other just bless and give to those who are persecuting or threatning them the most?


Look at the scenario between the States, N. Korea and South Korea:

now imagine this:

what if the Sates being a country of the Lord, instead of threating and trying to control take away from N. Korea..gave them things that they may need in asking for them to stop witht he nuclear build-up ext... now just imagine that N. Korea needed alot of wood or something like that..and in this quarrel of the States worrying about N. Korea just gave them some of what they needed and asked then seeking peace and lack of nuclear build-up or tension between N to S. Korea.
Now then if N. Korea after receiving a blessing from the Sates still rejected and acually attacked the States or S. Korea...and instead of either retailiating they gave even more and again just simply asked for peace or turned the other cheek..maybe gave some land or something...do you think that N. Korea would further attack anymore?...do you think they would continue to slaughter when the enemy they thought was going to attack them just sits there and does nothing but give furthermore to them?...do you think they would continue?...I dont.. i really really dont..nobody like's to war with nothing..if thiers no battle to fight whats worth fighting for?

i really do think that war is unessesary, i dont condemn soldiers for doing what thier leaders seek from them..in fact they obey God by doing what the leaders seek from them..but imagine if a country actually did what the Lord seeks of us.
I beleive God would already be with us, living literally amongst us, if we would have followed Jesus from His acension..but look at the world its full of payback and revenge, fear and threat...everyone seems to be a problem for everyone..we dont live by the Lord..and thats going to change soon enough, until then bless those who curse you and turn thy other cheek.

having unchained love for all is the most powerful weapon you can ever use, and who does thy recieve thy love? glory to God and His Son, our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Amen.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 07:54 PM
do you ever wonder what would have happened if this world was operated by people of God?....wouldnt the leaders if quarreling amongst each other just bless and give to those who are persecuting or threatning them the most?


Look at the scenario between the States, N. Korea and South Korea:

now imagine this:

what if the Sates being a country of the Lord, instead of threating and trying to control take away from N. Korea..gave them things that they may need in asking for them to stop witht he nuclear build-up ext... now just imagine that N. Korea needed alot of wood or something like that..and in this quarrel of the States worrying about N. Korea just gave them some of what they needed and asked then seeking peace and lack of nuclear build-up or tension between N to S. Korea.
Now then if N. Korea after receiving a blessing from the Sates still rejected and acually attacked the States or S. Korea...and instead of either retailiating they gave even more and again just simply asked for peace or turned the other cheek..maybe gave some land or something...do you think that N. Korea would further attack anymore?...do you think they would continue to slaughter when the enemy they thought was going to attack them just sits there and does nothing but give furthermore to them?...do you think they would continue?...I dont.. i really really dont..nobody like's to war with nothing..if thiers no battle to fight whats worth fighting for?

i really do think that war is unessesary, i dont condemn soldiers for doing what thier leaders seek from them..in fact they obey God by doing what the leaders seek from them..but imagine if a country actually did what the Lord seeks of us.
I beleive God would already be with us, living literally amongst us, if we would have followed Jesus from His acension..but look at the world its full of payback and revenge, fear and threat...everyone seems to be a problem for everyone..we dont live by the Lord..and thats going to change soon enough, until then bless those who curse you and turn thy other cheek.

having unchained love for all is the most powerful weapon you can ever use, and who does thy recieve thy love? glory to God and His Son, our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Amen.
Acting the way the Lord desires will not bring peace, however, for one simple reason.

We are not of this world. Those of this world will always seek to destroy us, no matter how many cheeks we turn.

The Bible teaches us to walk away from those that do not believe and leave them to their own devices. The only other dominating religion on the planet, Islam, teaches just the opposite.

mattlad22
Jul 11th 2005, 08:23 PM
i know.

but that doesnt mean that we should go with the flow of the world (im talking we as in nations) but we do..but why agree with the world? why agree with the worlds ways?...now you may say, we dont...but my friend we do, all i was simply saying is that if more and more and more of us lived the way Jesus actually said..instead of saying we do then allowing ourselves to live by the world..
wouldnt we hasten the coming of our Lord? now dont get me wrong, things happen because they indeed have to..its the way man has made it, God doesnt make us war with each other, man does it by nature, if we didnt then im sure we wouldnt have needed to have been givin the free gift of God through His Son.

so no acting the way the Lord said wont bring peace..but it will bring love,joy,forgiveness,mercy,truth...hey wait..that sounds pretty much like peace...now how could man bring peace..He cant..thats why Jesus came..and is...and will come again.

i know..the world hates us..wait no it doesnt..the world hates the Lord, and then since you and i not being of this world, us being of Christ, are hated.
but should that stop us from being what the Lord came and told us to be?
no indeed it shouldnt..but does it...look at the world..does it not mingle with us at the moment?...but why does it tolerate us...doesnt the world hate us..or wait maybe it doesnt exactly hate us all that much..but why..the Lord said the world hates Him..so if you understand what im saying, why does the world mingle with Christ's?...is it because we do not speak loud enough, is it because we do not hold fast to the way of the Lord?...

now in all truth, as a brother.. i want you to dig deep and tell me, if a man smites thee, or steals from thee..would you not strike back or desire to strike back?..would you turn the other cheek willingly?
if a man steals from you..would you give him more?
if you could sue...would you..would you consider it?
Those are just a few things..dig deep..i bet not all those answers if dug deep enough are what the Lord said to do....
and if they are...keep running and run harder.
and if thier not, keep running and run harder.
we have been given the Gift because of who we are, not because we earned it or because He wants a gift in return...but through that Gift we received we want to give to Him.

When you receive a gift do you feel like now you have to give something in return?

Why call religion dominant? it is weak and has no victory.
the world should not rely on religion, but love and the Gift it has received, thats why we give thanks. However in the case of Islam or any other religion, we already know its path, now what are we to do about it?..well, simply notify people of the Gift and why the world was given it.

So yes all this destruction and ext..is going to pass, we know that..but does that keep us from doing what we should want to do?..are we afraid to let God shine brighter in us because if we do that, the world will crumble beneath itself and the wrath of Satan shall come?

i do not have more time, but thank you for your time.
take care,
God bless:hug: :kiss:

lightwait
Jul 11th 2005, 08:27 PM
Bible say's to kill,murder someone is a sin.

If God told someone saved, to kill some people, that make's it ok ?and not a sin?
Weather it save other lives or not by killing them.?

Just a question on my mind as i think God told someone in the bible to kill.
Can't remember the verse ?
If they did it's not a sin?

Yours Peter 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I would like to say that the word "ye" is plural and that "we" are the temple of God and Christ is the temple of his body — Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (in your midst — Jesus is speaking to his diciples, plural)

I am convinced that "Thou shalt not kill" is correct. If we reside in the Kingdom of God and our "life" is eternal and we are to love our enemies what reason would we have to kill anyone. God is the "sword" of our excellency. (Deu 33:29) The sword that comes out of the mouth of He who rides on the white horse is the sword that kills us by giving us life — as Paul said, "I die daily." Exo 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

Read the only two chapters of Haggai. The Lord wanted His temple to be built and the people were saying "the time is not come" we have to do this and that. The LORD of hosts said "Consider your ways." In essence God said he would take care of everything if they would build the temple and that he would "shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts." And that "glory" is Christ Jesus.

Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In the Kingdom of God there is no death — Christ is "life" and he is the temple and in him we have life eternal.

We cannot have peace while we are killing each other for any reason. Killing is a worldly event, not an event that happens in the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom of God is within us. Jesus came not to condemn us but that we might have life. Vengence is mine saith the LORD.

I make the choice not to "kill". I think killing is opposed to and not allowed in the Kingdom. Anyone who kills for any reason is not a part of the Kingdom. If you think it — you have done it, says the Lord of Hosts Christ Jesus.

I know that if we are killing we are not in the Kingdom of God. I know that the Kingdom of God in "within" those who believe.

I say, make your own choice.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 08:36 PM
What God does and what men do are two different things. I do not call God a sinner. God has the right to do whatever He wishes, we do not. If God does something and tells us not to do that thing, then that thing is justified for God but not for us.Uh.... God often tells men to go to war for a variety of reason. God is the one that put the powers that be in place and God did so for a purpose. Not sure why that seems such a hard thing for folks to grasp.



Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.And earlier you were dogging Paul. Amazing how that whole pick and choose verses of our liking works... ain't it!

You forget Scripture.... God often uses nations as his hand in vengeance.



God can send someone to kill another as He did in the OT. But since Jesus walked the earth, I do not know of any instance when the Lord actually appeared to tell someone to kill another. People always try and say that God is on their side, and that they are doing God's will by waging this war because so and such reasons. But in the end, it is their own blood lust or pride that is directing them, because Jesus set us on a different road that has nothing to do with violence.Again... you underestimate God. God puts the princes in place. And why don't you know? Because it doesn't say so in the Scripture or simply because you refuse to acknowledge that some of these world leaders just might sure enough hear from God? Do you think they cannot? Are you so certain that it was only greed that motivates in all the wars since Christ? That smells of an awful lot of self-something or other... pretty bold of you to say that with such certainty. Hope you're right though because if not then you have judged a lot of folk in history as unrighteous when they just may not have been. But hey... guess you've got some kind of inside track that no one else has and know exactly what went on say little over a 100 years ago when Abraham Lincoln did what he did! And shoot... that whole war back a little over 200 years ago... we should have just turned out other cheek when old England came a calling! And then what... Those sorry, greedy leaders for involving themselves in the freeing of the Jewish people from the likes of Hitler! Why we should have just let the Jewish folk turn their other cheek and I mean afterall... war is evil!

You know... no. It's silly and as I said... you cannot condemn man for war without first condemning God. If war is sin then God sinned. If you are willing to admit that at least you are consistent. You are wrong and a lot of other things if you admit that... but at least you are consistent in what you believe. If you do not think God sinned then war is not a sin.

That being said... it certainly can be and much sin can be done during war. But then that is another topic really.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 08:39 PM
i know.

but that doesnt mean that we should go with the flow of the world (im talking we as in nations) but we do..but why agree with the world? why agree with the worlds ways?...now you may say, we dont...but my friend we do, all i was simply saying is that if more and more and more of us lived the way Jesus actually said..instead of saying we do then allowing ourselves to live by the world..
wouldnt we hasten the coming of our Lord? now dont get me wrong, things happen because they indeed have to..its the way man has made it, God doesnt make us war with each other, man does it by nature, if we didnt then im sure we wouldnt have needed to have been givin the free gift of God through His Son.

so no acting the way the Lord said wont bring peace..but it will bring love,joy,forgiveness,mercy,truth...hey wait..that sounds pretty much like peace...now how could man bring peace..He cant..thats why Jesus came..and is...and will come again.

i know..the world hates us..wait no it doesnt..the world hates the Lord, and then since you and i not being of this world, us being of Christ, are hated.
but should that stop us from being what the Lord came and told us to be?
no indeed it shouldnt..but does it...look at the world..does it not mingle with us at the moment?...but why does it tolerate us...doesnt the world hate us..or wait maybe it doesnt exactly hate us all that much..but why..the Lord said the world hates Him..so if you understand what im saying, why does the world mingle with Christ's?...is it because we do not speak loud enough, is it because we do not hold fast to the way of the Lord?...

now in all truth, as a brother.. i want you to dig deep and tell me, if a man smites thee, or steals from thee..would you not strike back or desire to strike back?..would you turn the other cheek willingly?
if a man steals from you..would you give him more?
if you could sue...would you..would you consider it?
Those are just a few things..dig deep..i bet not all those answers if dug deep enough are what the Lord said to do....
and if they are...keep running and run harder.
and if thier not, keep running and run harder.
we have been given the Gift because of who we are, not because we earned it or because He wants a gift in return...but through that Gift we received we want to give to Him.

When you receive a gift do you feel like now you have to give something in return?

Why call religion dominant? it is weak and has no victory.
the world should not rely on religion, but love and the Gift it has received, thats why we give thanks. However in the case of Islam or any other religion, we already know its path, now what are we to do about it?..well, simply notify people of the Gift and why the world was given it.

So yes all this destruction and ext..is going to pass, we know that..but does that keep us from doing what we should want to do?..are we afraid to let God shine brighter in us because if we do that, the world will crumble beneath itself and the wrath of Satan shall come?

i do not have more time, but thank you for your time.
take care,
God bless:hug: :kiss:
The Lord comes in His own time, and I mean that both literally and figuratively, and nothing we do or not do will change the timing.

If more of us lived as Jesus taught us to live the world might be a lot more pleasent in the meantime. But if not enough lived that way, it would probably be a lot worse.

We go round and round about this war issue, and you know what?
This is one instance where both sides may be more correct than incorrect, with neither being totally correct.

Without police and military those that do not believe, that have no fear of the Lord, would just bring chaos and destruction. No one saved or unsaved would be around to witness His coming.

My convictions prevent me from taking another life for any reason. We are not of this world and should not seek so hard to remain that we resort to shedding the blood of another. But I do understand those that do not have that conviction to the same degree as I. I do not consider you evil, or even a worse sinner. And I do not think the Lord will condemn you or your convictions either.

Not in this world.

Grace goes the furthest in these mid-gray areas.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 08:48 PM
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I would like to say that the word "ye" is plural and that "we" are the temple of God and Christ is the temple of his body — Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (in your midst — Jesus is speaking to his diciples, plural)

I am convinced that "Thou shalt not kill" is correct. If we reside in the Kingdom of God and our "life" is eternal and we are to love our enemies what reason would we have to kill anyone. God is the "sword" of our excellency. (Deu 33:29) The sword that comes out of the mouth of He who rides on the white horse is the sword that kills us by giving us life — as Paul said, "I die daily." Exo 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

Read the only two chapters of Haggai. The Lord wanted His temple to be built and the people were saying "the time is not come" we have to do this and that. The LORD of hosts said "Consider your ways." In essence God said he would take care of everything if they would build the temple and that he would "shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts." And that "glory" is Christ Jesus.

Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

In the Kingdom of God there is no death — Christ is "life" and he is the temple and in him we have life eternal.

We cannot have peace while we are killing each other for any reason. Killing is a worldly event, not an event that happens in the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom of God is within us. Jesus came not to condemn us but that we might have life. Vengence is mine saith the LORD.

I make the choice not to "kill". I think killing is opposed to and not allowed in the Kingdom. Anyone who kills for any reason is not a part of the Kingdom. If you think it — you have done it, says the Lord of Hosts Christ Jesus.

I know that if we are killing we are not in the Kingdom of God. I know that the Kingdom of God in "within" those who believe.

I say, make your own choice.You know... in light of our last little discussion I almost just ignored you today but I think not. You have some strange doctrine coming from your words... gotta be honest with you!

You say that if we are killing we are not in the Kingdom of God and then follow with the Kingdom of God being in those that believe. So... those believing boys over there right now in the various places our nation has sent them that have died... they are where? They in hell you think? I mean what... if they are at war and they cannot inherit the kingdom.... just say it. You think they are in hell?

Can all the religious speak man and just speak simple English and say what you want to say. I'm tired of reading through all the mush.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 09:01 PM
Uh.... God often tells men to go to war for a variety of reason. God is the one that put the powers that be in place and God did so for a purpose. Not sure why that seems such a hard thing for folks to grasp.

And earlier you were dogging Paul. Amazing how that whole pick and choose verses of our liking works... ain't it!

You forget Scripture.... God often uses nations as his hand in vengeance.

Again... you underestimate God. God puts the princes in place. And why don't you know? Because it doesn't say so in the Scripture or simply because you refuse to acknowledge that some of these world leaders just might sure enough hear from God? Do you think they cannot? Are you so certain that it was only greed that motivates in all the wars since Christ? That smells of an awful lot of self-something or other... pretty bold of you to say that with such certainty. Hope you're right though because if not then you have judged a lot of folk in history as unrighteous when they just may not have been. But hey... guess you've got some kind of inside track that no one else has and know exactly what went on say little over a 100 years ago when Abraham Lincoln did what he did! And shoot... that whole war back a little over 200 years ago... we should have just turned out other cheek when old England came a calling! And then what... Those sorry, greedy leaders for involving themselves in the freeing of the Jewish people from the likes of Hitler! Why we should have just let the Jewish folk turn their other cheek and I mean afterall... war is evil!

You know... no. It's silly and as I said... you cannot condemn man for war when war without first condemning God. If war is sin then God sinned. If you are willing to admit that at least you are consistent. You are wrong and a lot of other things if you admit that... but at least you are consistent in what you believe. If you do not think God sinned then war is not a sin.

That being said... it certainly can be and much sin can be done during war. But then that is another topic really.
If God put all the rulers in power then what right has any ruler or nation to gainsay that?

In the OT the Lord appeared and gave instructions as to who to go to war with and exactly how to carry it out.

Has that happened, to your knowledge, since Jesus?

Without direct intervention from the Lord, how can you be absolutely sure what God wants you to do in any particular case?

We do what we do on faith. Faith in whatever it is we believe in.
If you kill in the name of the Lord your faith in its correctness will not save you if it was not the Lord's will that you kill.

And Jesus never instructed us to kill, or even resist.

As to Paul and his writings, what I just quoted was basically a quote from Jesus. But what he said concerning obeying the laws of the land and the governmental rule was more in line with keeping the persecution and killing of Christians to a minimum, as far as I can see, and not with justifying killing through military might as it it so often used today. It was Paul conforming the church to the state, being politically correct.

And I can condemn Man for war before God, because it was a man that spilled the first blood. Man has continued throughout the ages, and to this very day.

Man has no life to give in order to take back. Life comes from God and returns to God. To say that we only sin if God sins is placing yourself at, at least, the same level as God Almighty. That is a very dangerous place to be, if you are not He.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 09:39 PM
If God put all the rulers in power then what right has any ruler or nation to gainsay that?Perhaps God told them to do just that? Again... a gander through the Old Testament and you'll see that pattern as sure as God made little green apples!


In the OT the Lord appeared and gave instructions as to who to go to war with and exactly how to carry it out.

Has that happened, to your knowledge, since Jesus?Perhaps. I wasn't there when God told them or spoke through another telling them or however. But what you cannot do is say that it hasn't happened. All you can say is that you have no knowledge of it happening.


Without direct intervention from the Lord, how can you be absolutely sure what God wants you to do in any particular case?Perhaps the war was God's direct intervention. Again... a read through the Old Testament will show you many cases of that very thing being done.


We do what we do on faith. Faith in whatever it is we believe in.
If you kill in the name of the Lord your faith in its correctness will not save you if it was not the Lord's will that you kill.And if it was the Lord's will then the problem is what? The government wields the sword for a purpose. I've wielded it before personally and will not hide my head in shame before man or God for doing what I did when I did it. Did I enjoy it? Not in the least little bit. But it needed done and I was in the place to do it at the time. My option was to hide and cover my eyes... but then I can make a case that I'd of stood guilty before God had I done such a thing.



And Jesus never instructed us to kill, or even resist. Well and good. If that is your conviction even in war then God bless you and I'd fight for your right to hold it. But as I posted earlier... Jesus had ample opportunity as did others to make this point clear with soldiers... He did not. Either He just wasn't thinking there or it wasn't an issue for a soldier. I figure He was thinking right clearly... so the other option makes a wee more sense to me.



As to Paul and his writings, what I just quoted was basically a quote from Jesus. But what he said concerning obeying the laws of the land and the governmental rule was more in line with keeping the persecution and killing of Christians to a minimum, as far as I can see, and not with justifying killing through military might as it it so often used today. It was Paul conforming the church to the state, being politically correct.I didn't bring up Paul's writings for that really but then I've no problem with the idea of submitting to the government when called but then I don't think going to war is against God unless the war unjust then there'd be no decision on my part. I'd resist and not fight.


And I can condemn Man for war before God, because it was a man that spilled the first blood. Man has continued throughout the ages, and to this very day.And when God commanded the Israelites to go to war do you condemn Him as well? If not then explain how that is going to work out in your playbook?


Man has no life to give in order to take back. Life comes from God and returns to God. To say that we only sin if God sins is placing yourself at, at least, the same level as God Almighty. That is a very dangerous place to be, if you are not He.And once again... read the Bible. Nations and war have often been the very hand of God at work.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 09:48 PM
Perhaps God told them to do just that? Again... a gander through the Old Testament and you'll see that pattern as sure as God made little green apples!

Perhaps. I wasn't there when God told them or spoke through another telling them or however. But what you cannot do is say that it hasn't happened. All you can say is that you have no knowledge of it happening.

Perhaps the war was God's direct intervention. Again... a read through the Old Testament will show you many cases of that very thing being done.

And if it was the Lord's will then the problem is what? The government wields the sword for a purpose. I've wielded it before personally and will not hide my head in shame before man or God for doing what I did when I did it. Did I enjoy it? Not in the least little bit. But it needed done and I was in the place to do it at the time. My option was to hide and cover my eyes... but then I can make a case that I'd of stood guilty before God had I done such a thing.

Well and good. If that is your conviction even in war then God bless you and I'd fight for your right to hold it. But as I posted earlier... Jesus had ample opportunity as did others to make this point clear with soldiers... He did not. Either He just wasn't thinking there or it wasn't an issue for a soldier. I figure He was thinking right clearly... so the other option makes a wee more sense to me.


I didn't bring up Paul's writings for that really but then I've no problem with the idea of submitting to the government when called but then I don't think going to war is against God unless the war unjust then there'd be no decision on my part. I'd resist and not fight.

And when God commanded the Israelites to go to war do you condemn Him as well? If not then explain how that is going to work out in your playbook?

And once again... read the Bible. Nations and war have often been the very hand of God at work.
Again and still, you persist in the OT. Jesus changed how we are to do things.

And please, do not fight in my name either. You can fight in the name of the Lord, you can fight in your own name and for your own reasons.

Don't drag me into it. I do not wish you to die or be injured on my account, nor do I want to be your justification for your killing.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 09:58 PM
Again and still, you persist in the OT. Jesus changed how we are to do things.And Jesus did not change how we do things. Jesus taught how things were always supposed to be. Folks who killed entering Israel were saved by faith just as any of us today are saved. War happens as unfortunate as it might be. God ordains it as well. You can hem and haw until your fingers bruise but the Old Testament is Scripture and if your doctrine doesn't line up there as well as the New then your doctrine is not sound.


And please, do not fight in my name either. You can fight in the name of the Lord, you can fight in your own name and for your own reasons.Be sure it is about conviction and not cowardice... that is just as damnable as other sin.


Don't drag me into it. I do not wish you to die or be injured on my account, nor do I want to be your justification for your killing.Good luck.

lightwait
Jul 11th 2005, 09:58 PM
Jesus loved me when I hated him and wanted to kill him. In Luke it says, "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Do we want soldiers to come to this country and kill our families? If the answer is "NO" then we are supposed to do likewise. Please — it is not OK for soldiers to go out and kill. Yes it happens, but it is not OK in any way, shape or form. Jesus could do us in for doing what we do but he does not. He loves us and does not kill us.

Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 10:03 PM
Jesus loved me when I hated him and wanted to kill him. In Luke it says, "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Do we want soldiers to come to this country and kill our families? If the answer is "NO" then we are supposed to do likewise. Please — it is not OK for soldiers to go out and kill. Yes it happens, but it is not OK in any way, shape or form. Jesus could do us in for doing what we do but he does not. He loves us and does not kill us.

Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.I hope for your sake that it is pretrib. What God is going to do in the last days is going to freak you out. When Jesus returns and wars with the nations... will you tell him to STOP! This is sin!

And you called it man when you said those kids over there aren't really believers because the kingdom of God ain't in them. I'll not sit here and say nothing to such nonsense. I know a couple personally over there and you are as wrong as rain is wet.

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 10:14 PM
And Jesus did not change how we do things. Jesus taught how things were always supposed to be. Folks who killed entering Israel were saved by faith just as any of us today are saved. War happens as unfortunate as it might be. God ordains it as well. You can hem and haw until your fingers bruise but the Old Testament is Scripture and if your doctrine doesn't line up there as well as the New then your doctrine is not sound.

Be sure it is about conviction and not cowardice... that is just as damnable as other sin.

Good luck.
Taught how things were always supposed to be.
But not as they had been.

You want to keep things as they had been, and not accept the teachings of how things are supposed to be.

From what I have seen, those that do not accept the newer teachings do so because they are too afraid to face the possible consequences, like death without a fight. Maybe you should be sure it is more from conviction than cowardice.

Jesus led as a lamb to the slaughter, and He expects us to follow Him where ever He leads.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 10:37 PM
Taught how things were always supposed to be.
But not as they had been.Good... now in understanding that one must also understand that God didn't change once Jesus came down here. God ordained war and God will continue to ordain war until all enemies are underfoot including death.



You want to keep things as they had been, and not accept the teachings of how things are supposed to be.I don't want to keep it that way. But it will be kept that way and it will even get worse. There is nothing "pie in the sky" about life on earth. And again... Jesus never told any of those military folk that they must get out and no longer serve. Do you think Jesus was likely smart enough to understand that soldiers often times fought? Sure he was. It isn't rocket science.


From what I have seen, those that do not accept the newer teachings do so because they are too afraid to face the possible consequences, like death without a fight. Maybe you should be sure it is more from conviction than cowardice.And this has what to do with anything? I am speaking of war where tons face death every time they stick their noggin out of the fox hole. Who's running from death? Your comment makes no sense at all.


Jesus led as a lamb to the slaughter, and He expects us to follow Him where ever He leads.Isn't it a shame that he misled those soldiers by not sharing that secret with them?

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 10:54 PM
Good... now in understanding that one must also understand that God didn't change once Jesus came down here. God ordained war and God will continue to ordain war until all enemies are underfoot including death.

I don't want to keep it that way. But it will be kept that way and it will even get worse. There is nothing "pie in the sky" about life on earth. And again... Jesus never told any of those military folk that they must get out and no longer serve. Do you think Jesus was likely smart enough to understand that soldiers often times fought? Sure he was. It isn't rocket science.

And this has what to do with anything? I am speaking of war where tons face death every time they stick their noggin out of the fox hole. Who's running from death? Your comment makes no sense at all.

Isn't it a shame that he misled those soldiers by not sharing that secret with them?
Jesus does not call for war anymore. And the only reason it will remain is because certain people keep it going. People keep it this way, not the Lord. He told us we were not supposed to be that way any more.

You just do not get it, the time for war is over.

Who is running from death? You are, and all those that take up arms are.
I do not run from death, I turn away from killing.

Those in the fox holes are facing death, but they are also running from it by killing others to maintain what they want to maintain. And they would all rather kill than be killed.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Steve M
Jul 11th 2005, 11:01 PM
Be sure it is about conviction and not cowardice... that is just as damnable as other sin.

While I abhore cowardice as much as the next man, PP, I'm not sure what scripture you'd go to on that one. It's certainly not in any of Paul's lists. Did you have a scripture in mind identifying cowardice as a sin?

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 11:26 PM
Jesus does not call for war anymore. And the only reason it will remain is because certain people keep it going. People keep it this way, not the Lord. He told us we were not supposed to be that way any more.

You just do not get it, the time for war is over.

Who is running from death? You are, and all those that take up arms are.
I do not run from death, I turn away from killing.

Those in the fox holes are facing death, but they are also running from it by killing others to maintain what they want to maintain. And they would all rather kill than be killed.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
So when you said the following... you didn't really mean it? You have me a bit confused here.


We go round and round about this war issue, and you know what?
This is one instance where both sides may be more correct than incorrect, with neither being totally correct.

Without police and military those that do not believe, that have no fear of the Lord, would just bring chaos and destruction. No one saved or unsaved would be around to witness His coming.

My convictions prevent me from taking another life for any reason. We are not of this world and should not seek so hard to remain that we resort to shedding the blood of another. But I do understand those that do not have that conviction to the same degree as I. I do not consider you evil, or even a worse sinner. And I do not think the Lord will condemn you or your convictions either.

ProjectPeter
Jul 11th 2005, 11:28 PM
While I abhore cowardice as much as the next man, PP, I'm not sure what scripture you'd go to on that one. It's certainly not in any of Paul's lists. Did you have a scripture in mind identifying cowardice as a sin?Revelation 21:7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Duane Morse
Jul 11th 2005, 11:48 PM
I meant it.

I know how it should be, and I know how it is. Most who go to war do so for honorable reasons, and are honorable people. Many are also God fearing people and God loving people. They are doing what they think is the right thing to do, and are not doing it for selfish reasons.
The Lord judges the heart, I think at least in some cases, above the actions.

But people are too bent on living 'how it is', and not enough on living 'how it should be', which is why there are so many wars. Everyone wants to keep 'how it is', and not enough want to bring reality to 'how it should be'.

If we really want war to end, then stop going to war.

Another problem is that people love this life so dearly, and all the while we are simply travelers on a road, and this is but a single rest stop. They want so much to make this life all there is, and do not really believe in what comes after, that they would rather kill to keep what they have than not kill to gain what they hope for.

And you, like I, gain conviction from the Bible. We do, however, interpret things differently. It should not mean that we do not want to be with each other in heaven, though.

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 12:33 AM
I meant it.

I know how it should be, and I know how it is. Most who go to war do so for honorable reasons, and are honorable people. Many are also God fearing people and God loving people. They are doing what they think is the right thing to do, and are not doing it for selfish reasons.
The Lord judges the heart, I think at least in some cases, above the actions.

But people are too bent on living 'how it is', and not enough on living 'how it should be', which is why there are so many wars. Everyone wants to keep 'how it is', and not enough want to bring reality to 'how it should be'.

If we really want war to end, then stop going to war.

Another problem is that people love this life so dearly, and all the while we are simply travelers on a road, and this is but a single rest stop. They want so much to make this life all there is, and do not really believe in what comes after, that they would rather kill to keep what they have than not kill to gain what they hope for.

And you, like I, gain conviction from the Bible. We do, however, interpret things differently. It should not mean that we do not want to be with each other in heaven, though.Well I figure the thing about reality is while our reality is different it is still reality. Had God not intended us to live in the nasty now and now then He'd take us on out of here. And God uses the righteous to wage war as the Old Testament lays out and again... Scripture is where we get doctrine. That is not to say all wars are just and righteous because they are not. But over the years... there have been those that were and I figure God used this nation and others to stamp out the injustice. Folks don't want to agree with that then cool... up to them. But when I start seeing folks say that the guys in uniform haven't God in them... I don't suppose I can just sit by and watch that fly by without a challenge.

As I stated... those that think war is a sin are those that think either God is a sinner or they do not believe Scripture as written in the Old Testament. There is no way around that issue period.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 12:38 AM
"As I stated... those that think war is a sin are those that think either God is a sinner or they do not believe Scripture as written in the Old Testament. There is no way around that issue period."

I do not consider God a sinner, and I do believe what is written in the OT. I also believe that the time for OT justice was in the OT time, and the time for NT grace and forgiveness is upon us.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 12:53 AM
John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is where God tells us to live by a higher standard. Not one of punishment and retribution, but of forgiveness and grace.

Well, I'm going to show you now the silliness of what you just said here. Not punishment and retribution you say? In that case, you must be all for letting all criminals go free from the prisons and not putting any others in from now on. That would consitute punishment afterall. You might want to rethink this a bit.


You want to say that Jesus only means this on a personal level, and it does not apply to the government and wars. I disagree. Governments are made up of individuals, and based upon those individuals' values. So it all comes back to the individual after all.

Well, then our government should let all the folks in prison go free and quit putting any others in from now on. You must surely agree with this as it is what you are claiming. Might want to rethink this.

Yes, Jesus taught us how we should act as an individual. And as an individual we should always hold to those truths, even if someone, or a government, says otherwise.


If you want to accept what Paul says in his political correctness go ahead and follow Paul. I will accept what Jesus told me above all, and I will only accept what others say if it does not go against what Jesus has made so clear.

You are kidding me right? Paul's political correctness? Excuse me, but the words of Jesus are no better than Paul's! Do you know why that is? You just accused God Himself of being politically correct. You might want to rethink that based on the Word of God Himself. The whole of the Bible is inspired by God Himself. All that Paul said was from God, except for one part on marriage where Paul said specifically, this is my own opinion. But even that was inspired by God indirectly. God would have told Paul not to put it in there if God didn't want it in there. You really are way off base here and sadly mistaken. But I can see this is your excuse for explaining away what Paul said about the government. So be it.

We are not judged as a group, as a club, or as a nation. We are all judged as individuals, one on one with the Lord. I do not think 'I was only following orders' is going to fly very far, because it was not the orders of the Lord that were followed, but the orders of other men.

Sorry, but you are wrong again and lacking in knowledge and understanding of God's Word. God judges not just individuals but nations and cities as well. This is even spoken of by Jesus Himself! I think you might want to rethink this as well.

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 01:38 AM
"As I stated... those that think war is a sin are those that think either God is a sinner or they do not believe Scripture as written in the Old Testament. There is no way around that issue period."

I do not consider God a sinner, and I do believe what is written in the OT. I also believe that the time for OT justice was in the OT time, and the time for NT grace and forgiveness is upon us.
But then there is a problem with that. Sin hasn't changed has it? I mean what was sin in the old is sin in the new right? It has always been God's most two important commandments... love God with all your heart, soul and mind. And love your neighbor as yourself. So nothing has changed at all in that regard. Just as thou shall not murder was sin in the days of David, it is no less or more a sin today. That hasn't changed. So if it is a sin today as you say then you cannot possibly reconcile the fact that God Himself ordained and ordered war. You are tap dancing all around it.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 01:46 AM
But then there is a problem with that. Sin hasn't changed has it? I mean what was sin in the old is sin in the new right? It has always been God's most two important commandments... love God with all your heart, soul and mind. And love your neighbor as yourself. So nothing has changed at all in that regard. Just as thou shall not murder was sin in the days of David, it is no less or more a sin today. That hasn't changed. So if it is a sin today as you say then you cannot possibly reconcile the fact that God Himself ordained and ordered war. You are tap dancing all around it.
No I'm not.
What is a sin for us may not necessarily be a sin for God.
Or, don't you agree with that either?

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 02:00 AM
No I'm not.
What is a sin for us may not necessarily be a sin for God.
Or, don't you agree with that either?
I suppose you'd have to give me an example of what it is that you are trying to say before I'd agree or disagree but in regard to the commands we are talking about here... I don't see how you could come to that conclusion unless you are saying that God is a murderer but because He is God who's counting! But I don't buy that certainly.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 02:01 AM
Did you miss my response to you Duane? I'm having ISP problems tonight and it posted twice. Should be easy to spot.

Slug1
Jul 12th 2005, 02:26 AM
I've been reading all the replies from the question put forth... Is it a sin to Kill people? I'm gonna answer this based on my job. I've been an Infantryman for the past 20 year in the US Army. I served during Desert Storm and for a year long tour during Iraqi Freedom, plus a Peace Keeping mission in Macadonia. As I see it killing and murdering are different. Granted the result is the same but to kill a person who is trying to kill me (or friends/family) or killing people that murder people, incapable to defend themselves is a justifiable kill, not murder.

People in the US are fortunate that they're aren't people driving or walking around with explosives strapped to them with the intent to murder as many people as possible. Or digging in roadside bombs with the intent to kill the "soldiers" defending the people of a country that is incapable to defend themselves.

The reason for this fortune is because of the people, law enforcement, soldiers etc. that receive the training necessary to kill the people with the sole desire to murder innocent people.

I have killed in combat, have prayed many times over this before, during, and after firefights but have never felt I was sinning. I never had an enemy soldier in my sights that didn't deserve to die because of his actions as a treat to myself or comrades. If at my home here in the free US, I was put in a situation where the lives of my family were threatend by someone intending leathal force I wouldn't hesitate to use leathal force to stop them.

Have I ever murderd anyone, NO! I have no guilt that I have sinned and have discussed this with a pastor I once knew. Many of the replies touch on what we talked about.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 02:31 AM
I saw you, EarlyCall, but I was cooking and eating dinner with the family. I'll get there is a second.


Peter, it is about the very subject we are discussing. We are not to kill each other. And if you want to narrow that to just murder, I'll ablige for this. But, God can not murder. The very definition of murder precludes it. If God can not murder then what sin has been committed? By definition, God can not sin. First of all, God makes the rules. Second, a rule that God made for men does not have to also apply to God.

If you want to argue the fact, take it up with God. With me, it is just a fact.
The rule maker is not necessarily bound by the rules he imposes on His creation. Especially if said rule maker is also the prosecution, defense, judge, jury and executioner all in one, as is the Almighty.
And another point is that our deaths are already ordained, that sin thing you know. So if the executioner carries out the sentance in His own time and way, who is anyone to say it is wrong?

Our lives are the Lord's for the taking, in any way He sees fit. We have been bought, we do not own ourselves. And we own no other either, because there is but one owner, Jesus. As such, our lives are His for the taking, but others lives are not ours for the taking.

That is how it can apply to us, but not to God; How killing is a sin for us, but not for God.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 02:40 AM
I've been reading all the replies from the question put forth... Is it a sin to Kill people? I'm gonna answer this based on my job. I've been an Infantryman for the past 20 year in the US Army. I served during Desert Storm and for a year long tour during Iraqi Freedom, plus a Peace Keeping mission in Macadonia. As I see it killing and murdering are different. Granted the result is the same but to kill a person who is trying to kill me (or friends/family) or killing people that murder people, incapable to defend themselves is a justifiable kill, not murder.

People in the US are fortunate that they're aren't people driving or walking around with explosives strapped to them with the intent to murder as many people as possible. Or digging in roadside bombs with the intent to kill the "soldiers" defending the people of a country that is incapable to defend themselves.

The reason for this fortune is because of the people, law enforcement, soldiers etc. that receive the training necessary to kill the people with the sole desire to murder innocent people.

I have killed in combat, have prayed many times over this before, during, and after firefights but have never felt I was sinning. I never had an enemy soldier in my sights that didn't deserve to die because of his actions as a treat to myself or comrades. If at my home here in the free US, I was put in a situation where the lives of my family were threatend by someone intending leathal force I wouldn't hesitate to use leathal force to stop them.

Have I ever murderd anyone, NO! I have no guilt that I have sinned and have discussed this with a pastor I once knew. Many of the replies touch on what we talked about.
And do you also feel that when your enemy has you in his sights that you and your friends also deserve death because of your actions as a threat to him or his comrades?
And usually, it is in their backyard, not ours.

Slug1
Jul 12th 2005, 02:46 AM
And do you also feel that when your enemy has you in his sights that you and your friends also deserve death because of your actions as a threat to him or his comrades?
And usually, it is in their backyard, not ours.

I have reflected on this, especially when I was on the receiving end of incoming bullets. I then felt blessed that I could calmly see who was shooting at me and place him in my sights and not miss when I shot back. One less murdering insurgent, who knows how many people would now live because his ability to kill innocent people or other soldiers was now ended.

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 02:56 AM
Peter, it is about the very subject we are discussing. We are not to kill each other. And if you want to narrow that to just murder, I'll ablige for this. But, God can not murder. The very definition of murder precludes it. If God can not murder then what sin has been committed? By definition, God can not sin. First of all, God makes the rules. Second, a rule that God made for men does not have to also apply to God.So then the reason God cannot sin is because no rule applies to God? Interesting but I dare say that one would have to completely redefine the word holy to draw such a conclusion as that. Especially seeing how we are to be holy as God is holy. The reason that it is narrowed down to murder is because that is sure enough what it means.

ratsach -- pronounced: {raw-tsakh'}
a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder: -- put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).

That is your Hebrew word for kill in the commandment. Jesus makes that clear as well. When asked by the rich young ruler... Jesus uses the word murder.

phoneuo -- pronounced: {fon-yoo'-o}
from 5406; to be a murderer (of): -- kill, do murder, slay.
See Greek No. 5406 <G5406>

So the use of murder is the appropriate use and that doesn't mean kill. If it merely covered "kill" as in any old way then once again you cannot reconcile the fact that God ordered the Israelites to sure enough kill a lot of folks. You can only then conclude that God told those folks to sin. Has nothing to do with God not killing which we know He did that too... but has to do with God telling man to sin and of course we know according to Scripture He doesn't tempt man. So there is many problems with your stand.

If you want to argue the fact, take it up with God. With me, it is just a fact.
The rule maker is not necessarily bound by the rules he imposes on His creation. Especially if said rule maker is also the prosecution, defense, judge, jury and executioner all in one, as is the Almighty.
And another point is that our deaths are already ordained, that sin thing you know. So if the executioner carries out the sentance in His own time and way, who is anyone to say it is wrong?

Our lives are the Lord's for the taking, in any way He sees fit. We have been bought, we do not own ourselves. And we own no other either, because there is but one owner, Jesus. As such, our lives are His for the taking, but others lives are not ours for the taking.

As to the whole God not abiding by the rules He sets... nah. One of the greatest sins Jesus spoke about was hypocricy and you would be painting God as the greatest of all hypocrites. Again I say you are treading on some mighty slippery footing.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 02:56 AM
I've been reading all the replies from the question put forth... Is it a sin to Kill people? I'm gonna answer this based on my job. I've been an Infantryman for the past 20 year in the US Army. I served during Desert Storm and for a year long tour during Iraqi Freedom, plus a Peace Keeping mission in Macadonia. As I see it killing and murdering are different. Granted the result is the same but to kill a person who is trying to kill me (or friends/family) or killing people that murder people, incapable to defend themselves is a justifiable kill, not murder.

People in the US are fortunate that they're aren't people driving or walking around with explosives strapped to them with the intent to murder as many people as possible. Or digging in roadside bombs with the intent to kill the "soldiers" defending the people of a country that is incapable to defend themselves.

The reason for this fortune is because of the people, law enforcement, soldiers etc. that receive the training necessary to kill the people with the sole desire to murder innocent people.

I have killed in combat, have prayed many times over this before, during, and after firefights but have never felt I was sinning. I never had an enemy soldier in my sights that didn't deserve to die because of his actions as a treat to myself or comrades. If at my home here in the free US, I was put in a situation where the lives of my family were threatend by someone intending leathal force I wouldn't hesitate to use leathal force to stop them.

Have I ever murderd anyone, NO! I have no guilt that I have sinned and have discussed this with a pastor I once knew. Many of the replies touch on what we talked about.

I want to say thank you so very much. I appreciate all you have given in service to our counrty and that means every one of us. Don't mind Duane, I think he is confused. How sad that he cannot even be so kind as to thank you.

You are most surely not guilty of sin nor have you committed murder. You are quite right in your assesment of the situation. You did right by us all and I thank you so much.

May God bless you and keep you. :)

Slug1
Jul 12th 2005, 03:00 AM
I want to say thank you so very much. I appreciate all you have given in service to our counrty and that means every one of us. Don't mind Duane, I think he is confused. How sad that he cannot even be so kind as to thank you.

You are most surely not guilty of sin nor have you committed murder. You are quite right in your assesment of the situation. You did right by us all and I thank you so much.

May God bless you and keep you. :)

Your very welcome. The last 20 years has been very fulfilling for me...:)

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 03:04 AM
And do you also feel that when your enemy has you in his sights that you and your friends also deserve death because of your actions as a threat to him or his comrades?
And usually, it is in their backyard, not ours.

Sheez Duane. You thick-headed or what? Guess why the terrorists had him in their sights and not you and your family? Sheez show a little gratefulness. Use your imagination if that is what it takes for you to get it.

You likely would not be here today nor your family if in WWII our soldiers had not taken the fight to hitler and tojo. Know why? Because your parents likely would have died - right here at home under the bayonets of germany's and japan's finest! Can you grasp that concept at all? Or you going to argue that wouldn't have happened? Yea, Switzerland would have rescued us I'm sure.

You know what Duane? It is one thing to have an opinion and another to be dense about a matter. The terrorists are trying their very best to bring it right here in your very own backyard. We are going there to prvent that and this is how you say thank you?

Ignorance is bliss they claim, and I suppose it is until the bullet breaks through the skull and shines the light of truth into ones understanding - if only for the briefest of moments!

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 03:09 AM
Sorry, but you are wrong again and lacking in knowledge and understanding of God's Word. God judges not just individuals but nations and cities as well. This is even spoken of by Jesus Himself! I think you might want to rethink this as well.
Nations are judged as nations and cities as cities, but it may not be a blanket judgement.
In the end, at the white throne judgement, it will not be nations, it will only be
lonely.

Free all the hard criminals? That's a thought...

I know as well as you that the practicalities of the situation are not the best. But we should, in my opinion, try to follow what Jesus taught to the best of our abilities, and that includes turning the other cheek and returning good for evil. So I do not think Christians should put themselves in a position of likely having to kill someone, or do anything else that puts them in a likelyhood of sinning.

Who knows how many are hard criminals simply for a lack of love and compassion in their lives? Love and compassion are supposed to be some of our trademarks as Christians.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 03:23 AM
Sheez Duane. You thick-headed or what? Guess why the terrorists had him in their sights and not you and your family? Sheez show a little gratefulness. Use your imagination if that is what it takes for you to get it.

You likely would not be here today nor your family if in WWII our soldiers had not taken the fight to hitler and tojo. Know why? Because your parents likely would have died - right here at home under the bayonets of germany's and japan's finest! Can you grasp that concept at all? Or you going to argue that wouldn't have happened? Yea, Switzerland would have rescued us I'm sure.

You know what Duane? It is one thing to have an opinion and another to be dense about a matter. The terrorists are trying their very best to bring it right here in your very own backyard. We are going there to prvent that and this is how you say thank you?

Ignorance is bliss they claim, and I suppose it is until the bullet breaks through the skull and shines the light of truth into ones understanding - if only for the briefest of moments!
I said before you are not fighting for me or mine, I have nothing to thank you for. I did not request you to kill on my behalf, nor do I want you, or anyone else, to.
Got it?

My dad was at Pearl when the attack took place. He missed being strafed in his sleep by about a half second in the first seconds of the attack. Is there a difference?
No.

Yes, the terrorists are trying to bring it to my door. And when they get here we will probably die. So what? There are worse things than simple death, which is nothing, really.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 03:27 AM
Nations are judged as nations and cities as cities, but it may not be a blanket judgement.
In the end, at the white throne judgement, it will not be nations, it will only be
lonely.

Free all the hard criminals? That's a thought...

I know as well as you that the practicalities of the situation are not the best. But we should, in my opinion, try to follow what Jesus taught to the best of our abilities, and that includes turning the other cheek and returning good for evil. So I do not think Christians should put themselves in a position of likely having to kill someone, or do anything else that puts them in a likelyhood of sinning.

Who knows how many are hard criminals simply for a lack of love and compassion in their lives? Love and compassion are supposed to be some of our trademarks as Christians.

Duane, I'm ok with you not wanting to pick up arms if you feel it against your conscience. Hojnest I am. But don't preach it like it is gospel truth from God Himself. It ain't so. It ain't Biblical at all.

I see you did admit the problem with your thoughts on no punishment. I'm glad. Thank you.

I agree with you that we should try to follow Jesus' command to love our enemy as best we can. But again, this has nothing to do with war.


Ok, well, it seems we've been round this mountain a few times now and the terrain is looking awfully familiar. I appreciate you responding.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 03:29 AM
I said before you are not fighting for me or mine, I have nothing to thank you for. I did not request you to kill on my behalf, nor do I want you, or anyone else, to.
Got it?

My dad was at Pearl when the attack took place. He missed being strafed in his sleep by about a half second in the first seconds of the attack. Is there a difference?
No.

Yes, the terrorists are trying to bring it to my door. And when they get here we will probably die. So what? There are worse things than simple death, which is nothing, really.

Well, Duane, I tell you what then... When the terrorists get here - call a preacher. Me, I'm calling a soldier. Want me to bury you and your family for you or just leave you lay there looking all peaceful like?

How sad. So be it.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 03:30 AM
Duane, I'm ok with you not wanting to pick up arms if you feel it against your conscience. Hojnest I am. But don't preach it like it is gospel truth from God Himself. It ain't so. It ain't Biblical at all.

I see you did admit the problem with your thoughts on no punishment. I'm glad. Thank you.

I agree with you that we should try to follow Jesus' command to love our enemy as best we can. But again, this has nothing to do with war.


Ok, well, it seems we've been round this mountain a few times now and the terrain is looking awfully familiar. I appreciate you responding.
This is one we can not agree fully on, I'm afraid. Sorry you do not see it as Biblical, because I certainly do.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 03:33 AM
Well, Duane, I tell you what then... When the terrorists get here - call a preacher. Me, I'm calling a soldier. Want me to bury you and your family for you or just leave you lay there looking all peaceful like?

How sad. So be it.
I don need no stinkin preacher

I have the Lord. He will protect, or take, as He wishes. I trust in Him, not soldiers, not knives and guns, not in my own strength.

Just the Lord.

As for the burial, it does not really matter to me. The body will resurrect just as well, in or out of the ground.

Slug1
Jul 12th 2005, 03:35 AM
Well, Duane, I tell you what then... When the terrorists get here - call a preacher. Me, I'm calling a soldier. Want me to bury you and your family for you or just leave you lay there looking all peaceful like?

How sad. So be it.

Or worse, watch family or friends get blown up by a terrorist with a bomb, and have not done anything to prevent it.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 03:38 AM
I don need no stinkin preacher

I have the Lord. He will protect, or take, as He wishes. I trust in Him, not soldiers, not knives and guns, not in my own strength.

Just the Lord.

As for the burial, it does not really matter to me. The body will resurrect just as well, in or out of the ground.

Don't get upset Duane. I was making a point. I wouldn't want any harm to come to you and yours just cause we disagree. Ok?

You know, sometimes God expects us to do for ourselves. I guess this isn't what you consider one of those times. I do. We disagree. And that's ok too.

But LOL on the "I don't need no stinkin preacher". Sorry, that struck me funny.:rofl:

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 03:46 AM
Or worse, watch family or friends get blown up by a terrorist with a bomb, and have not done anything to prevent it.

You are so very right. What then would one holding such pasifist views do when in knowledge of a terrorist act about to take place? Would they consider ratting the terrorists out and prevent the killing of innocents? Or would they think doing so woul dnot be in the spirit of loving your enemy and let the terrorists go through with their deed? Afterall, ratting out a terrorists is hardly showing them how much you lkove them wehn you knwo doing so is likely to get them killed! How is that showing your enemy love? But then again, what about loving those that are not your enemy and saving their lives by ratting out the terrorists?

Ah the dilemas we face when we are not clear on what God wants from us. Perhaps then the answer lies in doing nothing and pretending to be innocent and without blame for the deaths of innocents. Still seems like quite the dilema to me. But then I'm not plagued with such dilemas. I'd rat 'em out and enjoy it too. Maybe I'm just nasty and don't realize it. :D

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 03:49 AM
Don't get upset Duane. I was making a point. I wouldn't want any harm to come to you and yours just cause we disagree. Ok?

You know, sometimes God expects us to do for ourselves. I guess this isn't what you consider one of those times. I do. We disagree. And that's ok too.

But LOL on the "I don't need no stinkin preacher". Sorry, that struck me funny.:rofl:
I could not make jokes if I were upset. And I'm not upset.

I agree that God expects us to do for ourselves, sometimes if not most of the time. But the realm of life and death is God's domain exclusively. That is why such a simple statement such as 'thou shalt not kill' should not be so dissected.



7523 ratsach { raw-tsakh’}




a primitive root; TWOT - 2208; v



AV - slayer 16, murderer 14, kill 5, murder 3, slain 3, manslayer 2, killing 1, slayer + 310 1, slayeth 1, death 1; 47



GK - 8357 { jx'r;


1) to murder, slay, kill

1a) (Qal) to murder, slay

1a1) premeditated

1a2) accidental

1a3) as avenger

1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)

1b) (Niphal) to be slain

1c) (Piel)

1c1) to murder, assassinate

1c2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

1d) (Pual) to be killed

Quite a lot is covered by that one word. Murder, yes. But also accidental killing, killing for vengeance, just plain 'kill' also. I can not, in good conscience, omit the others to justify the killing of another.

lightwait
Jul 12th 2005, 03:49 AM
I don need no stinkin preacher

I have the Lord. He will protect, or take, as He wishes. I trust in Him, not soldiers, not knives and guns, not in my own strength.

Just the Lord.Duane,

I am with you all the way. God consistantly says kill with the sword. God also says that He is the "sword" of our (of Israel) excellency. We are to kill the enemy with the sword that comes out of the mouth of Jesus — the true word of God.

There is no death in the kingdom and the kingdom is in our midst.

Killing for any reason is a sin. We are not to condemn the world we are to bring light into the world. We are to Love our enemies.

Those who profess that war is OK in some or any circumstances are far from the truth. We can kill every man, worman and child with the two edged sword. We can kill them by giving them life.

I admire who you are.

Slug1
Jul 12th 2005, 03:53 AM
You are so very right. What then would one holding such pasifist views do when in knowledge of a terrorist act about to take place?

I would consider my death defending Duane (an innocent) against a terrorist, an honorable way to go. I just ask for a smile at least if his pride won't allow him to Thank me.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 03:53 AM
Duane,

I am with you all the way. God consistantly says kill with the sword. God also says that He is the "sword" of our (of Israel) excellency. We are to kill the enemy with the sword that comes out of the mouth of Jesus — the true word of God.

There is no death in the kingdom and the kingdom is in our midst.

Killing for any reason is a sin. We are not to condemn the world we are to bring light into the world. We are to Love our enemies.

Those who profess that war is OK in some or any circumstances are far from the truth. We can kill every man, worman and child with the two edged sword. We can kill them by giving them life.

I admire who you are.
Admire the One who taught me.

If He had not done so, I would probably be out using the terroists for target practice. And when I am mad, I do not miss.

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 03:57 AM
Duane,

I am with you all the way. God consistantly says kill with the sword. God also says that He is the "sword" of our (of Israel) excellency. We are to kill the enemy with the sword that comes out of the mouth of Jesus — the true word of God.

There is no death in the kingdom and the kingdom is in our midst.

Killing for any reason is a sin. We are not to condemn the world we are to bring light into the world. We are to Love our enemies.

Those who profess that war is OK in some or any circumstances are far from the truth. We can kill every man, worman and child with the two edged sword. We can kill them by giving them life.

I admire who you are.
Is war going to be okay when Jesus wages it?

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 04:01 AM
I would consider my death defending Duane (an innocent) against a terrorist, an honorable way to go. I just ask for a smile at least if his pride won't allow him to Thank me.
If you saved me at the cost of your own life, I too would consider it honorable and I would thank you when we met in heaven.

If you killed another to save my life, I do not think I would want to see you again.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 04:03 AM
Is war going to be okay when Jesus wages it?
Yes, and I explained why a couple posts ago. But even then, we will not be doing the killing.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 04:13 AM
slug1,


Fortunately, most in this country are not like Duane. Most of us are so very grateful to you and all the others such as you. You mentioned that the past twenty years have been good to you. I am glad for this and glad you are safe. But you know, the past twenty years have been pretty good for me and my family too. I thank God for that and I have you to thank for that as well.

And never doubt that there are always many of us that will always be ready to support you and thank you. And I'm just an out of shape 48 year old civilian, but I can handle a gun, and if it came down to it here in our own land, I'd be right there beside you if you'd have me! And I wouldn't be alone either - you can bet on that.

Note: I'm no hero nor some brave guy, but I'd be there. :)

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 04:28 AM
If you saved me at the cost of your own life, I too would consider it honorable and I would thank you when we met in heaven.

If you killed another to save my life, I do not think I would want to see you again.Will you be dissappointed were you to have to spend eternity as a roommate to King David who killed 200 Philistines and cut off their foreskin simply for a wife?

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 04:35 AM
Will you be dissappointed were you to have to spend eternity as a roommate to King David who killed 200 Philistines and cut off their foreskin simply for a wife?
I would be dissapointed to have a roommate in heaven, no matter who it was.
This is heaven you are talking about, right?

But yeah, if he is still that way I would be bummed out to the max, dude.

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 04:38 AM
I would be dissapointed to have a roommate in heaven, no matter who it was.
This is heaven you are talking about, right?

But yeah, if he is still that way I would be bummed out to the max, dude.

Ok, I do have to say, I like your sense of humor alot. I can't help that even if we disagree about this. :rofl:

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 04:43 AM
Ok, I do have to say, I like your sense of humor alot. I can't help that even if we disagree about this. :rofl:
What can I say?
I'm English.

Braver
Jul 12th 2005, 05:38 AM
For man, it is wrong to take another's life, because man's life belongs to God only, and only Him may rightfully take it. In some cases, God does delegate this right to His agents, whether it be men or angels, with the express divine command to take certain people's lives. It is in this light that we must view the Israelites' aggression towards the Canaanites: Divine retribution for their hardened heart and sins for four hundred years, much like God later sent the Babylonians and Assyrians to vanquish the apostate Israel.

Now, men may wage war to rightfully defend homeland and lives, but even so, the act of killing itself is still sin. God gave David victories over his enemies, but even then God forbade David from building the Temple for Him because David is still stained with blood and murder even though those victories were given to him from God.

So killing is always wrong, no matter how justified or righteous the reason is (of course, I do not mean to say that in events that justified killing for self defense, or defend the country, one should not kill, but one is forced to it out of extreme necessity, with humble and continually repentant heart). But our Creator and Maker knows and understands, and is ever willing to forgive and love us back to His Grace.

Duane Morse
Jul 12th 2005, 06:03 AM
that was so well put, Braver.

Toolman
Jul 12th 2005, 01:41 PM
Here is a reminder of the board rules:


Be gracious to other posters When someone disagrees with you, by all means discuss it; but be slow to anger, and rather be eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend or hurt another. If we are &quot;earnestly contending for the faith&quot; it would be unrealistic not to be misunderstood or even ridiculed at times. But how we respond is the true test of character.

No name calling It is rude and uncalled for and also unscriptural. Name calling of another member will get your post removed.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated This board has an edit button enabled. Once you have posted read what you wrote. If you think it could in any way offend, go back and edit it. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with any potentially offensive material. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. Flaming, putting other's down etc all fall into this category. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or U2U.

Posts inferring people are dense, stupid, daft, etc. will not be allowed. They are neither productive, edifying nor within board rules.

Continued breaking of those rules will result in the thread being locked and posting privileges put on hold.

Please conduct your speech in a Christian like manner. Address the issue and not the person.

Thanks for your cooperation.

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 01:53 PM
For man, it is wrong to take another's life, because man's life belongs to God only, and only Him may rightfully take it. In some cases, God does delegate this right to His agents, whether it be men or angels, with the express divine command to take certain people's lives. It is in this light that we must view the Israelites' aggression towards the Canaanites: Divine retribution for their hardened heart and sins for four hundred years, much like God later sent the Babylonians and Assyrians to vanquish the apostate Israel.

Now, men may wage war to rightfully defend homeland and lives, but even so, the act of killing itself is still sin. God gave David victories over his enemies, but even then God forbade David from building the Temple for Him because David is still stained with blood and murder even though those victories were given to him from God.

So killing is always wrong, no matter how justified or righteous the reason is (of course, I do not mean to say that in events that justified killing for self defense, or defend the country, one should not kill, but one is forced to it out of extreme necessity, with humble and continually repentant heart). But our Creator and Maker knows and understands, and is ever willing to forgive and love us back to His Grace.
Yes... but then no where do we see that God ever stopped showing grace and love towards David for any of his military might. He was a violent man and therefore he couldn't build the temple because of that violence. But the only time David was ever accused by God for murder was when he did the plotting to cover up his sin with Bathsheba.

We say things like killing is always wrong no matter how justified.... but again going back to a main point about saying this. God commanded folks to kill other folk at times. If God commands this then how in the world does a person say it was wrong? Do you honestly believe that God is going to command you to do wrong?

Magnetic
Jul 12th 2005, 03:15 PM
We say things like killing is always wrong no matter how justified.... but again going back to a main point about saying this. God commanded folks to kill other folk at times. If God commands this then how in the world does a person say it was wrong? Do you honestly believe that God is going to command you to do wrong?

The problem is, people who see this [God commanding folks to kill other folks] do see it as wrong. I see it all the time on other forums. The list of cities that were conquered were many, mostly due to them worshipping other gods, or occupying the track of land the Israelites were on, while they made their way to 'the promised land'. To many of people, they don't see this as justified, on the contrary, they see it as religious intolerance/bigotry. That's their words. Tell you what, it's hard to apologetize [is that a word? :confused ] them in favor of the Bible. To say "God can do whatever He wants, who are we to question Him", for them, holds no meaning but only demonstrates that humanistic morality is more palletable than Biblical morality.

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 03:42 PM
The problem is, people who see this [God commanding folks to kill other folks] do see it as wrong. I see it all the time on other forums. The list of cities that were conquered were many, mostly due to them worshipping other gods, or occupying the track of land the Israelites were on, while they made their way to 'the promised land'. To many of people, they don't see this as justified, on the contrary, they see it as religious intolerance/bigotry. That's their words. Tell you what, it's hard to apologetize [is that a word? :confused ] them in favor of the Bible. To say "God can do whatever He wants, who are we to question Him", for them, holds no meaning but only demonstrates that humanistic morality is more palletable than Biblical morality.I know they do. To those perishing the only smell they can smell is death. Not sure how to say it other than to say it simply... it happens. Not everyone is going to accept it. Our function in life is simply to tell them the truth of the gospel. We can plant and water and even toss a little poop around to help the soil some. But growth belongs to God.

Magnetic
Jul 12th 2005, 03:57 PM
I've heard some people say that it could be that the Israelites gave the glory to God for acts they did themselves. In other words, if they were victorious in battle, they were living in God's acceptance, so God must have condoned the military action. Later, when God sent plagues upon the Israelites, or caused their defeat/slavery at the hands of another army, it was because they were doing things that were contrary to God, thus why God allowed them the defeat. Hence, if we were victorious, God was with us. If we were defeated, God was against us.

I've also heard that the God of the OT isn't the same as the God of the NT. Don't ask me how they would think that, but I've heard it. :rolleyes:

Anyway, this is a pretty interesting topic. I'm surprised I didn't start it. :rofl:

perlo
Jul 12th 2005, 07:23 PM
I haven't read the whole thread; so I may be repeating things, The Word says;..'Yesterday, today, forever jesus is the same'... and 'Behold I am God I change not' and it says 'Saul has killed His thousands, David has killed his tens of thousands'; and it says David 'was a man after Gods own heart'. Ypu can bet your bottom bippy that eternal death is not nice just as all killing is not. But it will be.

The bible says, my paraphrase,... Let Me introduce you T Nebie my servant. Killing in war or for defence has always been allowed. What isn't is killing to get gain or rid of some hinderance to your own agenda. There is a distinction between killing and murder. If you cant see it, you will end up like the Minnonites etc who depend on someone else's backbone. They were driven out of Europe. That doesnt mean I dont think their lifestyle is bad it is not bad. But youy cant live an ideal life ibn a world that is not ideal.

I have posted before that 'there is no glory in the gore of war'. There is not. But there is still 'a time for war'. If you cant handle it, take it up with God. It is His Word. Still we who know the absolute stupidity of war also know one thing more. We know God's heart on the treatment of man by man. The Mennonites have the better life, but they live in the wrong world. Would I have given my life for them? You bet.

I dont object to the topic or the ideal. I object to self righteousness and arrogant piety that would allow the enslavement of the world. Search and see; even at his zeneth; the devil controls only a quarter of the earth. Ol' slewfoot doesn't ever get it all. His objective might be the whole world but the blind are still the blind. He falls into a ditch of his own making, and that ditch is in Israel. (Former U.S. Marine)
;)

perlo
Jul 12th 2005, 07:36 PM
One more thing; The Jews believed like some on this board that God would protect them. They, at one time wouldn't fight on the sabbath. They were in the temple grounds worshipping. The Romans harvested them like wheat.Killed tens of thousands. God thought it so un-important that He didnt include it in Holy writ. Check your history. The rest of us will keep your family safe. Some of you remind me of the priest or preacher in the origional 'War of the Worlds'. There isnt much complimentary I can say other than he ment well.;)

Slug1
Jul 12th 2005, 07:39 PM
The bible says, my paraphrase,... Let Me introduce you T Nebie my servant. Killing in war or for defence has always been allowed. What isn't is killing to get gain or rid of some hinderance to your own agenda. There is a distinction between killing and murder. If you cant see it, you will end up like the Minnonites etc who depend on someone else's backbone. They were driven out of Europe. That doesnt mean I dont think their lifestyle is bad it is not bad. But youy cant live an ideal life ibn a world that is not ideal.

Can you relay the passage you just paraphrased, I'd like to read this. I like your post. In a heart beat I'd put down my rifle if only the forces against all the good in this world would allow me to. So in the mean time someone has to keep the wolf away from our doorsteps. ;)

EarlyCall
Jul 12th 2005, 07:53 PM
Well, I guess when Jesus commented about the soldiers faith, very higly He commended him for it, Jesus forgot to tell the guy - you must get out of the army. Well, of course Jesus couldn't be expected to think of that minor point - He was too busy with other things.

And then of course Peter's run in with a soldier and his forgetting to tell him he was wrong in being in the army was understandable too. God just can't be expected to address these soldiers directly about such a vital issue as this. That is expecting just way too much from God. Afterall, He probably couldn't find the right words.

Too little actual hard evidence fom God's Word to support a pacifist view and too much hard evidence to argue against it rationally, reasonably and with decent logic.

It boils down to personal opinion only, nevermind it flies in the face of God's Word itself. But some force themselves to believe contrary to the Word of God in order to fit their own belief system and I suppose somehow manage to rasie themselves above it all. God however involved Himself very much in the killing of men. This leaves someone with the only option of somehow excusing God for what they consider a sin for man. Weak, but used.

God has always been very much into dealing with the realities of this world. His higher standards do not decide against war. Abraham went to rescue Lot with armed men. You don't take arms if you do not plan to use them if required. God not once reprimanded Abraham for this. I suppose then we have to conclude God forgot to mention it. Claiming this act by Abraham fell under the OT and not the NT is stretching beyond reason. You either giure God was able to express Himself back then or He wasn't. You either figure He forgot to correct Abraham or He didn't. We can find many more such examples. Were there principles involved? Without a doubt. But we do not see these rescinded by God in the NT. What we do see is Paul speaking to the issue of the government wielding the sword. The sword is not a defensive weapon - it is an offensive weapon. Paul, as we know, spoke in terms clearly understood by those under Roman rule. This and Jesus' own failure, which is what you have to claim it was, to mention to the centurian, get out of the army, is ample proof enough that God does not disapprove of the governments use of force with it's military.

Again, to claim otherwise is simply not Biblical but requires one to stretch, twist and manipulate God's Word to suit their own feelings and opinions. But one's feelings and opinions do not make the Word of God. Nor do they make reality in this world as is evidenced all around constantly.

So fine if you want to claim it is your feeling, your opinion, your preference, but to claim it is God's Word is simply ignoring the obvious. So don't claim we that find God to say contrary to you are sinning. Well, go ahead, but who cares really. Fortunately, you are in the minority. Thank God for that.

perlo
Jul 12th 2005, 08:49 PM
Hello Slug 1

Look at Jeremiah 27:6, after that Jer 21:1-7. Nebie didnt come down to make friends.;)

Slug1
Jul 12th 2005, 09:04 PM
Hello Slug 1

Look at Jeremiah 27:6, after that Jer 21:1-7. Nebie didnt come down to make friends.;)

Hey Thanks allot!

ProjectPeter
Jul 12th 2005, 09:52 PM
I've heard some people say that it could be that the Israelites gave the glory to God for acts they did themselves. In other words, if they were victorious in battle, they were living in God's acceptance, so God must have condoned the military action. Later, when God sent plagues upon the Israelites, or caused their defeat/slavery at the hands of another army, it was because they were doing things that were contrary to God, thus why God allowed them the defeat. Hence, if we were victorious, God was with us. If we were defeated, God was against us.

I've also heard that the God of the OT isn't the same as the God of the NT. Don't ask me how they would think that, but I've heard it. :rolleyes:

Anyway, this is a pretty interesting topic. I'm surprised I didn't start it. :rofl:
Oh people say tons of stuff and much of it a marvel. I suppose it is likely that people have been saying stuff like this for thousands of years... we just have different ways of communicating and arguing about it now! :D

lightwait
Jul 12th 2005, 11:24 PM
Who mugged Mother Teresa?

No one?

Why not?

qbee
Jul 13th 2005, 11:34 AM
The Lord will give us protection and and power over our enemies.
Now and forever it has always been that way . . .

The church doesnt go to war.. The government does in our behalf.
Through the laws of the land ... God gives them the power to Smite
and punish the law breakers and the enemy. and we are subjects under
the law of the land ..

In the NEW TESTAMENT .... :) It is written quite clear so there can be no
misunderstanding or mis-interpretation of its meaning. It is God who exacts
his wrath through the rulers or government .. They need not be christian for
God to do this.. The rulers in Pauls time were not christian when he wrote
this .. God gives them the power to Smite and punish the law breakers the
wicked and the enemy. We are to be in subjection to them under the law
of the land .. We can serve ... to aid in keeping the laws of the land ..

"for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God,
a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. "


Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:
and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.
Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good,
and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which
is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister
of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers,
attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due;
custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.



Psalms 41

1 <To the chief music-maker. A Psalm. Of David.>
Happy is the man who gives thought to the poor; the Lord will be his saviour in the time of trouble.

2 The Lord will keep him safe, and give him life; the Lord will let him be a blessing on the earth,
and will not give him into the hand of his haters.

3 The Lord will be his support on his bed of pain: by you will all his grief be turned to strength.

4 I said, Lord, have mercy on me; make my soul well, because my faith is in you.

5 My haters say evil against me, When will he be dead, and his name come to an end?

6 If one comes to see me, deceit is in his heart; he keeps a store of evil, which he makes public in every place.

7 All my haters are talking secretly together against me; they are designing my downfall.

8 They say, He has an evil disease, which will not let him go: and now that he is down he will not get up again.

9 Even my dearest friend, in whom I had faith, who took bread with me, is turned against me.

10 But you, O Lord, have mercy on me, lifting me up, so that I may give them their punishment.

11 By this I see that you have pleasure in me, because my hater does not overcome me.

12 And as for me, you are my support in my righteousness, giving me a place before your face for ever.

13 May the Lord God of Israel be praised, through eternal days and for ever. So be it. So be it.
.
.
.

EarlyCall
Jul 13th 2005, 01:13 PM
Thank you qbee for taking the time and effort to pull it all together like this, with a very clear and precise commentary on the matter.

Excellent. :)

Clearly you've set the matter to rest with God's Word itself here. One can deny the truth here only by ignoring this.

Very well done!

unknown_parishioner
Jul 13th 2005, 11:54 PM
Exodus 20:13 'Thou shalt not murder.'

The word murder here is "ratsach", meaning: properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder

In the New Testament: "He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder..." Matthew 19:18

Murder here is "phoneuo", meaning: to be a murderer, do murder, slay.

In contrast: In Joshua 10:26, we see the Lord, through the hand of Joshua, executed 5 enemy kings. The word execute here is 'muwth', meaning: causatively, to kill; notice the Lord did not tell them to go murder, but to kill the enemy.

One may draw the conclustion that in some circumstances one may kill, but we are not to murder, an act which is malicious in intent to kill an innocent, often illustrated as dismemberment or being dashing to pieces in the act.

A good example is: A nation under God's law has the right to kill, in fact if they did more of that, there would be a whole lot less murders. Also, a police officer in a just situation has the right to kill, but not the right to murder. We can kill to defend our families from intruders, but, not to murder as was done to our Lord.

So, this is the ultimate example: Jesus was not killed, He was murdered.

lightwait
Jul 14th 2005, 02:56 AM
I have been wondering about this stuff:

Why didn't Jesus kill those who were going to kill him? Why didn't Steven kill them before they stoned him? Why did the disciples continue to preach the Gospel while others wanted to kill them? Why did Jesus say, you heard it said an eye for an eye but I tell you do not resist evil — I say to you, love your enemies? Why in context of the Old Testament did God tell the Israelites that "He" is the sword of their excellency and to kill their enemies with the sword? Why does it say in Exodus to let the LORD fight for them (the Israelites) and for them to hold their peace? Do you think Israel could have gotten it wrong? They got so much stuff wrong. We want a king, they would say. God would say, "I will be your king." No, they would say, those other guys have a king, we want a king. OK, God would say but this is what is going to happen to you if you want a king other than me. We want a King. And then they would fall. But, God would never leave them nor would He forsake them.

Do you think that maybe Jesus is saying, let's give the world life? And by so doing we can kill death? Do you think that Jesus is saying that if we give the world life that those who reject life will in time fall to the wayside but those who choose life and die before the last trumpet blows will return with him? Do you think Jesus is saying while all this is happening there will be wars and rumors of wars? And do you think Jesus is saying that He will kill the enemy with the sword that is coming out of his mouth and that sword is the word of God? And that those words can give every person the ability to choose to live forever? — thereby killing those who believe and repent of their sin by giving them life? Do you think Jesus is giving us the choice to slay the wicked, or, like he did to us, to give the wicked life? Why didn't Jesus kill all of us who were wicked?

Why do you think God said the following?:

Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

lightwait
Jul 14th 2005, 02:59 AM
Who mugged Mother Teresa?

No one?

Why not?
Can no one answer this question?

Duane Morse
Jul 14th 2005, 03:04 AM
Can no one answer this question?
Because she had a big gun and was not afraid to use it?

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2005, 03:42 AM
Because she had a big gun and was not afraid to use it?
Probably no one answered because it was a pretty goofy question. Perhaps no one mugged her because she had NOTHING. The woman died with two outfits (nun-issue) a wooden cross, a pair of shoes and a very old and worn out Bible. That was all of her possessions. Mugging MT would have been like mugging the neighbors cat. You would come out of it with absolutely nothing.

So maybe you can just come up with perhaps a little bit of a better example eh?

Duane Morse
Jul 14th 2005, 04:17 AM
Probably no one answered because it was a pretty goofy question. Perhaps no one mugged her because she had NOTHING. The woman died with two outfits (nun-issue) a wooden cross, a pair of shoes and a very old and worn out Bible. That was all of her possessions. Mugging MT would have been like mugging the neighbors cat. You would come out of it with absolutely nothing.

So maybe you can just come up with perhaps a little bit of a better example eh?
Oh, please! I was kidding. But with the bloodlust going around in here I figured it would suit them just fine.

She devoted her life to Christ, she had very few personal possessions, and she would not hurt anyone. Why would anyone want to mug her?

And at any rate, with the places she was working in,I am sure she had a little protection from the Lord from time to time.

EarlyCall
Jul 14th 2005, 04:49 AM
I have been wondering about this stuff:

Why didn't Jesus kill those who were going to kill him? Why didn't Steven kill them before they stoned him? Why did the disciples continue to preach the Gospel while others wanted to kill them? Why did Jesus say, you heard it said an eye for an eye but I tell you do not resist evil — I say to you, love your enemies? Why in context of the Old Testament did God tell the Israelites that "He" is the sword of their excellency and to kill their enemies with the sword? Why does it say in Exodus to let the LORD fight for them (the Israelites) and for them to hold their peace? Do you think Israel could have gotten it wrong? They got so much stuff wrong. We want a king, they would say. God would say, "I will be your king." No, they would say, those other guys have a king, we want a king. OK, God would say but this is what is going to happen to you if you want a king other than me. We want a King. And then they would fall. But, God would never leave them nor would He forsake them.

Do you think that maybe Jesus is saying, let's give the world life? And by so doing we can kill death? Do you think that Jesus is saying that if we give the world life that those who reject life will in time fall to the wayside but those who choose life and die before the last trumpet blows will return with him? Do you think Jesus is saying while all this is happening there will be wars and rumors of wars? And do you think Jesus is saying that He will kill the enemy with the sword that is coming out of his mouth and that sword is the word of God? And that those words can give every person the ability to choose to live forever? — thereby killing those who believe and repent of their sin by giving them life? Do you think Jesus is giving us the choice to slay the wicked, or, like he did to us, to give the wicked life? Why didn't Jesus kill all of us who were wicked?

Why do you think God said the following?:

Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

The answer lies in not defending ourselves against persecution for Christ's sake. Defending oneself from someone trying to ahrm us when it has nothing to do with Christ is a different matter altogether. The government putting someone to death for a crime befitting death is serving justice. Not doing it is not true justice. The government sending troops off to war, a just war, there is no sin in the government for this nor in the soldier.

If you want to claim otherwise and ignore the scripture qbee posted, that is your option, but it doesn't make it so. If you cannot see the difference, maybe that is why you hold to the current position you take. And that's ok too. Nothng wrong with that at all. Doesn't make it so according to God.

Using Jesus as an example is being a bit disingenuous I think though. It is because Jesus wasn't here but for one reason. He came to die on that cross. So stop it He could have any time He wanted and He said so too, but He didn't. So He is not a good example to use - asking why He didn't kil those that were going to kill Him. Know what I mean?

Duane Morse
Jul 14th 2005, 05:40 AM
The answer lies in not defending ourselves against persecution for Christ's sake. Defending oneself from someone trying to ahrm us when it has nothing to do with Christ is a different matter altogether. The government putting someone to death for a crime befitting death is serving justice. Not doing it is not true justice. The government sending troops off to war, a just war, there is no sin in the government for this nor in the soldier.

If you want to claim otherwise and ignore the scripture qbee posted, that is your option, but it doesn't make it so. If you cannot see the difference, maybe that is why you hold to the current position you take. And that's ok too. Nothng wrong with that at all. Doesn't make it so according to God.

Using Jesus as an example is being a bit disingenuous I think though. It is because Jesus wasn't here but for one reason. He came to die on that cross. So stop it He could have any time He wanted and He said so too, but He didn't. So He is not a good example to use - asking why He didn't kil those that were going to kill Him. Know what I mean?
On the other hand,
We fight against powers and principalities, not flesh and blood. Jesus understood this better than any of us. That may be one reason why He told us not to follow the old eye for an eye rule. Eye for an eye simply fights flesh and blood, but not the powers and principalities behind the evil.

Jesus did not only come to be hung on a cross. He came to give us the Good News of the Gospel. He came to change how we did things.

When He says to return good for evil, just who was He talking to if not each of us individually? It is only the individual that can make changes.

Someone trying to harm us always has to do with Christ. Because if it were not for Satan no one would try to harm anyone. It all gets back to the basics of good vs. evil. Any evil perpetrated has to do with Christ. So if we do not perpetuate evil in return, in any case, we are doing so for the sake of Christ and the gospel.

You mention a 'just' war. Do you think that every war the U.S. has been involved in is a just war? U.S.A., right or wrong but always just? Hmmm...

This so-called 'War on Terror' is carried into whichever country the U.S. has issues with. It is not just aimed at the perps of 9-11, but at any group or country that does not do as the U.S. wishes.

No one is allowed WMD's unless they are allied with the U.S., but the U.S. can have whatever they want, do whatever research they want, with impunity.
Hypocrisy is rampant in this country.

Kill 'em all should be the slogan for both the U.S. and several here on this forum. Kill 'em and then we will have peace. Death and destruction to bring about peace. It'll never work.

You can not fight fire with fire without generating more fire. Dowsing fire with water, now that is a solution. And that is the solution that Jesus tried to teach while He was here.
Return love for hate, good for evil, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, treat everyone, friends and enemy alike, as a brother and neighbor.

So many here are so concerned with keeping the worldly things that they fail to realize that they are losing their soul in the process.

As far as what Qbee wrote, I see nothing from Jesus at all.
And in Psalms, it is the Lord we look to for protection.
"...I may give them their punishment" does not necessarily mean to take vengeance yourself, or to kill anyone for any reason.

In fact, let's go right back to Paul in Romans. And in fact, the chapter preceeding what Qbee quoted.



Chapter 12





1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 9Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; 11Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; 12Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 13Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. 14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


"...so that I may give them their punishment". Well, returning good for evil gives them their punishment, and we do not have to resort to evil ourselves in the process. It heaps coals of fire on their head.

Of course, that will not be enough for the blood thirsty. They want vengeance and blood now! They give no regard to what is written - Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I see no renewing of mind from people that have blood lust in their hearts.
That is simply the earthly mind at work, and not the work of the Holy Spirit.

lightwait
Jul 14th 2005, 01:23 PM
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

A person walks into a bank, pulls the pin out of a hand grenade and yells, "Everyone down on the floor and on your faces, we are going to have peace in this place." There is peace. Is it the same peace that happens in the last part of the Revelation?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

My choice is to take part in the "tree of life". I am not very good at it, but, I am learning that when we give (or turn someones eyes toward) Jesus, we give life.

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2005, 01:49 PM
Oh, please! I was kidding. But with the bloodlust going around in here I figured it would suit them just fine.

She devoted her life to Christ, she had very few personal possessions, and she would not hurt anyone. Why would anyone want to mug her?

And at any rate, with the places she was working in,I am sure she had a little protection from the Lord from time to time.Bloodlust? See that right there shows that you have a bit of bitterness in your heart and refuse to pay any attention to what folks have been saying in the thread. That is a gross misrepresentation of what folks have said in this thread and you sure enough know that but didn't stop you from writing it. That's a pretty sad thing truth be known. One doesn't suffer from bloodlust simply because they do not think that killing in a war is sinful or wrong. But hey... knock yourself out because you will answer for that sort of thing one day.

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2005, 02:13 PM
Of course, that will not be enough for the blood thirsty. They want vengeance and blood now! They give no regard to what is written - Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I see no renewing of mind from people that have blood lust in their hearts.
That is simply the earthly mind at work, and not the work of the Holy Spirit.And again you ignore the fact that God uses nations and has throughout the past to bring about His vengeance. And you ignore the fact that love your neighbor as yourself was just as much God's way of doing things back when He sent the Israelites into battle. You ignore the fact that although David was a man of war and one who slew many men in battle... He was a man after God's own heart and the fact that David was responsible for the death of many men... never was He known as anything other than a man after God's own heart. David was told by God to repent of many things in his life... war was not one of them.

You seem to ignore the fact that the reason Saul was stripped of the Spirit of God and his kingship because he did not completely slay a people as he was instructed to do all the way down to even their livestock. All of these things you seem to just ignore while defining it as bloodlust. Yet God did not label it as such but labeled it as a command.

I understand your conviction and it is your conviction and that's cool. But don't let your conviction cause you to sin. Your misrepresentation of what folks have said by labeling it bloodlust and the like is just that. That is not the truth of what has been said.

I have killed in duty. I am not proud that I had to kill in duty. In my past, not only was I in the military but I was also a cop. It is not fun and I did not feel good about the killing. But neither did I feel horribly bad either. We were part of rescuing a country and we were part of protecting other people. I did not do any of the things that I did because I just wanted to go out and kill some folk that day. I did not look back in time and feel the need to celebrate the day that I took man's life. I do not look back and savor the fond memory of the day men died. I hope that I would never be put in that situation again. I hope that no man is ever put in that situation again. But then I know today in Iraq that people will die.

The type of people that they are killing in Iraq are the type of people that yesterday tossed a bomb into the midst of children standing around G.I.'s that were tossing out candy to kids. 17 children were killed in the blast with many more wounded. Among the dead was a 4 day old baby and her mom was critically wounded with her other child. Kids laughing and excited as were the G.I.'s who took a moment away from the horror of that war and showed an act of kindness. Yeah think about that bloodlustful G.I. standing on the back of that Hummer tossing out that candy to those happy kids as the bomb parts ripped through his body killing him. You call him bloodlustful as his blood poured out of his body mingling with all those dead children. Hey... he didn't have the chance to turn the other cheek because of the crappy way this enemy works. And these people that are called the enemy are good people right? I mean we just invaded their land and we just flexed out might and bulled our way in for giggles or oil or whatever else the accusations are today.

I mean hey... Scotland Yard may as well just stop trying to keep a repeat of last week from happening! I mean you know... what's a couple of subway and bus bombings! It killed less than a hundred people so in the grand scheme of things... that ain't so bad. Instead they should just turn that other cheek and say... we will show love to our enemy!

But then the part that gets left out of the mix... what love are you showing those who are getting blown apart or losing body parts from these type people?

When Jesus speaks he is speaking to you and me and every one person who will hear. I forgive my brother when he sins against me. I can even forgive an enemy when he sins against me and shoot... it is often enough done. But as a nation... God did not shy away from establishing a national army with his chosen people and that is for a reason. War can be an act of love even though people will die. It shows love towards the people in this country. It shows love towards the people in Iraq. It shows love to the next group of kids that are getting candy when one day there are no more bombers left to blow them apart. And before you start going on about how that ain't love... stop yourself short of that logic. It is exactly the way God has shown love throughout history and God hasn't changed.

lightwait
Jul 14th 2005, 05:18 PM
1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

I believe David's acts of repentance from war and all the terrible things he did are what gave him the keys to the Kingdom and gave us some of the greatest lessons God could have given through David.

EarlyCall
Jul 14th 2005, 06:37 PM
1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

I believe David's acts of repentance from war and all the terrible things he did are what gave him the keys to the Kingdom and gave us some of the greatest lessons God could have given through David.

I'm afraid I don't see anything in that scripture to show David repenting of anything. It isn't there. I see no condemnation from God either. It simply isn't there.

What is there is a simple statement by David of his intentions and God's reason for not allowing him.

Let's look at what you are implying by your claims. You are implying that God condemns a man for obeying Him. Is that Biblical? You do imply this. God as we well know, commanded David to wage war against the enemies of Israel. Now here you are trying to claim that David is repenting of it. Of what? Of obeying God. You also imply that God is finding fault with David here - condemning David. For what? For doing what God commanded him to do. Is that Biblical?

I'm afraid that not only do the scriptures you quoted not say what you claim they say, but further you have made through implication some claims that are simply very far off the mark Biblically.

God does not ever once, not ever, request from us repentence for obeying Him.

Duane Morse
Jul 14th 2005, 06:41 PM
I call it bloodlust because that is how the attitudes shown here strike my soul.

All the arguements I have encountered have nothing to do with the words of Jesus. I have been told that His words carry no more weight than those of anyone else in the Bible. All the justification for the killing you all are bent on comes from the OT and a few writings of Paul.
Jesus changed how He expects us to respond to violence and evil, but no one seems to care what Jesus said, as long as they find an excuse to kill another.
Self defense, defense of property and land, defense of country and others.
All of these are somehow exempt from the words of Jesus, just because it was done that way in the OT, or because Jesus did not admonish the soldiers, or because Paul says certain things.

Tell me, all of you that justify your desire to kill, when do you turn the other cheek?
When do you return good for evil?
When do you go the extra mile with your enemy?
When do you love your wenemy?
When do you bless those that curse you?

If you will not do it in any of the above situations, then when is the right time? What are the right circumstances?

You all consider your life more importand than that of your enemy, because your enemy does things in a dispicable way, and they do not believe in Jesus and such. Jesus made no distinction, nor did He list conditions or exemptions.
He said - Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And He went on to say much more, but never to say that there are conditions in which we may disregard these words. Certainly not for self defense. In fact, He said that if you would save your own life you would lose it in the end.

I don't know about most of you, but the words of the Son of God carries all the weight. ALL of it. Everything else should expound on His words, not contradict them or add conditions that Jesus did not.

EarlyCall
Jul 14th 2005, 06:47 PM
We've been over this many times now Duane - right? The only thing I will add is this: I've had plenty of opportunities in my lifetime to turn the other cheek, to show love when none was deserved or called for, to go the extra mile. Haven't you? I'm betting most every one of us have if we've lived any time at on this sin-sick world where such opportunites make there way to us often.

What you consider me and some others to be ignoring, we in turn consider you to be ignoring much as well. It seems even enough.

I'm afraid at this point, you and I are just going to have to choose our weapons, count off 30 paces, turn and well, if we choose swords, we'll need to walk back most of that 30 paces.

How do feel about water pistols? :D

Duane Morse
Jul 14th 2005, 06:58 PM
We've been over this many times now Duane - right? The only thing I will add is this: I've had plenty of opportunities in my lifetime to turn the other cheek, to show love when none was deserved or called for, to go the extra mile. Haven't you? I'm betting most every one of us have if we've lived any time at on this sin-sick world where such opportunites make there way to us often.

What you consider me and some others to be ignoring, we in turn consider you to be ignoring much as well. It seems even enough.

I'm afraid at this point, you and I are just going to have to choose our weapons, count off 30 paces, turn and well, if we choose swords, we'll need to walk back most of that 30 paces.

How do feel about water pistols? :D
And again with, we can not agree so we fight to determine who is right?
Might makes right?
Guns, swords, but never just the pure Word of God?

EarlyCall
Jul 14th 2005, 07:17 PM
And again with, we can not agree so we fight to determine who is right?
Might makes right?
Guns, swords, but never just the pure Word of God?

No, I don't think we fight to determine who is right. I think it is much simpler than that. I think right now we fight to protect ourselves.

Don't like the idea of water pistols? We already did 30 paces with the Bible! :)

You say and make some good points Duane, I just can't bring myself to beleive the way you do on this issue.

Duane Morse
Jul 14th 2005, 07:25 PM
No, I don't think we fight to determine who is right. I think it is much simpler than that. I think right now we fight to protect ourselves.

Don't like the idea of water pistols? We already did 30 paces with the Bible! :)

You say and make some good points Duane, I just can't bring myself to beleive the way you do on this issue.
I know, and I am sad for that fact.

You know, challenging me to a dual may not be the smartest thing. I am very accurate with firearms. My favorite was a worked over Colt .45. I could manage a 5" spread at 50 yards in a standing position.

But if you really want to try water pistols, and you know, I unually win those water pistol games where you shoot through the clowns mouth to blow up the balloon, I'll ablige.

Water pistols at 5 paces. When can you get to Denver?

EarlyCall
Jul 14th 2005, 07:35 PM
I know, and I am sad for that fact.

You know, challenging me to a dual may not be the smartest thing. I am very accurate with firearms. My favorite was a worked over Colt .45. I could manage a 5" spread at 50 yards in a standing position.

But if you really want to try water pistols, and you know, I unually win those water pistol games where you shoot through the clowns mouth to blow up the balloon, I'll ablige.

Water pistols at 5 paces. When can you get to Denver?

Sheez Duane. That's some serious marksmanship. I'm impressed - honest. Now I know what I have to shoot for (pun intended). I'm shooting once a week now since February. Mostly a .22, but have shot most of the others, though I'd like to say I've shot a .50 cal, but no opportunity yet. Ever shoot one of those?

I want to change my weapon.:D

Duane Morse
Jul 14th 2005, 07:56 PM
Sheez Duane. That's some serious marksmanship. I'm impressed - honest. Now I know what I have to shoot for (pun intended). I'm shooting once a week now since February. Mostly a .22, but have shot most of the others, though I'd like to say I've shot a .50 cal, but no opportunity yet. Ever shoot one of those?

I want to change my weapon.:D
Nope.
357 Mag, 9mm, .22 rifles, Colt .45 were about it.

And it helps if you make your own ammo. Much more accurate than store bought.
And you can tailor the loads for conditions.

Armistead14
Jul 15th 2005, 04:04 AM
A true Christian can never join the army and be a soldier on foreign soil.

Because God is the one who decides on who's to live and who's to die, not the politics of man, which are corrupted.
Leaders who claim to work for the Lord and send men to die in wars abroad are serpents if you ask me, tools of the unrightious and the viciously vile.

A true Christian can only kill if it's self-defense, or if the Lord himself ordered him to do so.

Self-defense here is not going abroad to win a war, but in personal conditions, when one is faced with immediate threats.

God sent many of his armies in the OT to other lands, with instructions to kill all women, children and every living thing. You can find this throughout the OT.

Armistead14
Jul 15th 2005, 04:10 AM
Oh kendon, please. Now stop and think about what line of reasoning you are attempting here. No, I dont' play that game. God said for certain crimes death was the punishment. Now, do you agree this is a matter and issue of absolute vital importance in the lives of mankind? I'm sure you do. So YOU show me where God said to no longer punish people with the death penalty for such crimes. Simply because you don't like it doesn't make something not so.

I do not have to prove anything. You have to prove God no longer considers it so. So you show me where God in His Word said to no longer provide the death penalty for such crimes.

Can you do that?

It went as far, that God's law even stated that if two men were fighting and the woman came to her husbands defense, she could not hit the man trying to kill her husband in the privates. If she did, her hand was to be cut off. I have to admit, reading many of those OT laws towards women were something.

Armistead14
Jul 15th 2005, 04:26 AM
And Jesus did not change how we do things. Jesus taught how things were always supposed to be. Folks who killed entering Israel were saved by faith just as any of us today are saved. War happens as unfortunate as it might be. God ordains it as well. You can hem and haw until your fingers bruise but the Old Testament is Scripture and if your doctrine doesn't line up there as well as the New then your doctrine is not sound.

Be sure it is about conviction and not cowardice... that is just as damnable as other sin.

Good luck.

As in war, who will command that final war, where the blood will run as high as the horses chest. Jesus wil fight that war and destroy all of those that come against him. It will be the bloodiest war ever fought. God will bring more judgement, killing millions, than war ever has. God does fight and condone war for his reasons. " Evil can only prosper when good men lie down." In many of these nations that we fight for, we were invited to protect them. Anyone that says we should ahve set world war one and two out are just nuts. It may be that God doesn't want evil nations to rule. It may be that he wants the gospel to spread. Certainly Hitler would have changed that. God condoned war for certain reasons. Christ gave us instuctions for our personal use. If a man entered my house to kill my family, would I get my gun or my bible. I would get my gun. God put in every man self preservation.

lightwait
Jul 15th 2005, 12:50 PM
I cannot agree with any of you who espouse war or killing for any reason — even if someone is in my house to kill my wife and family. God defines himself as the sword of our excellency, therefore, we put on the armor of God. The real war "was" in the heavens, in our hearts and minds, until Jesus brought a group together and taught that they could live forever if they paid no attention to the things of the earth. Jesus went to the cross and let himself be killed for that very reason. The return of Jesus after his death on the cross into our hearts and minds, and his very life in us, is proof that he, and we who believe, have the power to become sons of God and will live forever. Why then would we protect our physical fleshly lives when we can put on the armor of God and transform the earthly and worldly practice of war and killing and death into a teaching of a spiritual war and the battles we have that will ultimately, when we overcome, lead to life forever.

When we teach our families to know Christ Jesus and they believe, then their whole purpose will be to spread the words (who are the very life) of Jesus to the warring world of man.

I am astounded to know that so few embrace this principle of life.

perlo
Jul 15th 2005, 06:26 PM
Hi lightwait:

I became a christian in July '54; 41 years ago. Being around a while doesnt necessarily correspond to wisdom, insight, or understanding; for me, you or anyone. Idealism is great in an ideal world. I wish this were an ideal world; but it is not. As far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes it is still the violent who take it by force. In the natural it is still men like me that protect people like you. Otherwise it would be a Mennonite experience in the U.S. and you would be chased out of here like they were out of Europe. It doesnt mean that I dont respect or care for people who believe the way you do, sombody has to remind the world; but you wouldnt be here if it were not for people like me.;)

BickBenedict
Jul 15th 2005, 06:27 PM
Hi lightwait:

I became a christian in July '54; 41 years ago. Being around a while doesnt necessarily correspond to wisdom, insight, or understanding; for me, you or anyone. Idealism is great in an ideal world. I wish this were an ideal world; but it is not. As far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes it is still the violent who take it by force. In the natural it is still men like me that protect people like you. Otherwise it would be a Mennonite experience in the U.S. and you would be chased out of here like they were out of Europe. It doesnt mean that I dont respect or care for people who believe the way I do, sombody has to remind the world; but you wouldnt be here if it were not for people like me.;)

FIFTY-ONE years ago. :o

perlo
Jul 15th 2005, 06:31 PM
;) Thanks Bick: I needed that.:blush:

roadrunner570
Jul 15th 2005, 06:33 PM
I cannot agree with any of you who espouse war or killing for any reason — even if someone is in my house to kill my wife and family. God defines himself as the sword of our excellency, therefore, we put on the armor of God. The real war "was" in the heavens, in our hearts and minds, until Jesus brought a group together and taught that they could live forever if they paid no attention to the things of the earth. Jesus went to the cross and let himself be killed for that very reason. The return of Jesus after his death on the cross into our hearts and minds, and his very life in us, is proof that he, and we who believe, have the power to become sons of God and will live forever. Why then would we protect our physical fleshly lives when we can put on the armor of God and transform the earthly and worldly practice of war and killing and death into a teaching of a spiritual war and the battles we have that will ultimately, when we overcome, lead to life forever.

When we teach our families to know Christ Jesus and they believe, then their whole purpose will be to spread the words (who are the very life) of Jesus to the warring world of man.

I am astounded to know that so few embrace this principle of life.

Problem is..many men had to fight and kill so that we can live in a country where we can believe and practice this way. The Anabaptists came to the US from Europe so they could be free of persecution, but they did not believe in taking up arms, but they had no problem enjoying the freedoms that had been provided by those who took up arms. Kind of a conundrum:hmm:

EarlyCall
Jul 15th 2005, 06:39 PM
I cannot agree with any of you who espouse war or killing for any reason — even if someone is in my house to kill my wife and family. God defines himself as the sword of our excellency, therefore, we put on the armor of God. The real war "was" in the heavens, in our hearts and minds, until Jesus brought a group together and taught that they could live forever if they paid no attention to the things of the earth. Jesus went to the cross and let himself be killed for that very reason. The return of Jesus after his death on the cross into our hearts and minds, and his very life in us, is proof that he, and we who believe, have the power to become sons of God and will live forever. Why then would we protect our physical fleshly lives when we can put on the armor of God and transform the earthly and worldly practice of war and killing and death into a teaching of a spiritual war and the battles we have that will ultimately, when we overcome, lead to life forever.

When we teach our families to know Christ Jesus and they believe, then their whole purpose will be to spread the words (who are the very life) of Jesus to the warring world of man.

I am astounded to know that so few embrace this principle of life.

I'm astounded by how some can take this point of view! Especially when they cannot offer solid evidence from God's own Word to validate their point of view, but rather only opinion. Whatever.

I see though that you did not respond to my correction of you trying to make more of scripture than was there. Prior page when you spoke about David repenting of killing the enemies of Isarel, nevermind God commanded him to do so. Is there a reason you didn't reply? You may have missed my reply to that post.

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 07:49 PM
I cannot agree with any of you who espouse war or killing for any reason — even if someone is in my house to kill my wife and family. God defines himself as the sword of our excellency, therefore, we put on the armor of God. The real war "was" in the heavens, in our hearts and minds, until Jesus brought a group together and taught that they could live forever if they paid no attention to the things of the earth. Jesus went to the cross and let himself be killed for that very reason. The return of Jesus after his death on the cross into our hearts and minds, and his very life in us, is proof that he, and we who believe, have the power to become sons of God and will live forever. Why then would we protect our physical fleshly lives when we can put on the armor of God and transform the earthly and worldly practice of war and killing and death into a teaching of a spiritual war and the battles we have that will ultimately, when we overcome, lead to life forever.

When we teach our families to know Christ Jesus and they believe, then their whole purpose will be to spread the words (who are the very life) of Jesus to the warring world of man.

I am astounded to know that so few embrace this principle of life.
"As far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes it is still the violent who take it by force."

Yes...
And it looks as though that will not change because so far most in this discussion can not bring themselves to the point of living by the ideal words of Jesus for fear of their own lives and the lives of their loved ones or property.

The scriptural support of Jesus' own words have no weight when it comes to such matters, it seems.

No, no, Jesus can not mean what He says except in the most superficial cases, but never if it comes down to my own life, heaven forbid, or the lives of a loved one, gasp, fellow countryman, personal property or personal sensibilities.

Can't live an ideal life in an other than ideal world?
WDJD? Just that.
And said, Come, follow Me.

Toolman
Jul 15th 2005, 07:58 PM
"As far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes it is still the violent who take it by force."

Yes...
And it looks as though that will not change because so far most in this discussion can not bring themselves to the point of living by the ideal words of Jesus for fear of their own lives and the lives of their loved ones or property.

The scriptural support of Jesus' own words have no weight when it comes to such matters, it seems.

No, no, Jesus can not mean what He says except in the most superficial cases, but never if it comes down to my own life, heaven forbid, or the lives of a loved one, gasp, fellow countryman, personal property or personal sensibilities.

Can't live an ideal life in an other than ideal world?
WDJD? Just that.
And said, Come, follow Me.

Duane,

If that is the ideal and Jesus' words are not to be taken "superficially" then may I ask why you have not taken your wife and children over to Iraq and placed yourselves in between the bullets and the targets.

Isn't laying your life down for another the ideal? Unless that is viewed superficically.

I hear alot of talk but don't see alot of laying down of physical life, if that is how you read the scriptures.

I have no problem with a pacifist stance but when you condemn those who protect their families then I think you have stepped beyond what Christ intended.

roadrunner570
Jul 15th 2005, 08:02 PM
I agree with Toolman...we have many Mennonites areound here, who most of are pacifists, including my professor. Talking to him, he did not believe in doing any kind of harm to any person under any circumstance, but he said he would not condemn anyone who felt called to serve in the military either.

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 08:05 PM
Duane,

If that is the ideal and Jesus' words are not to be taken "superficially" then may I ask why you have not taken your wife and children over to Iraq and placed yourselves in between the bullets and the targets.

Isn't laying your life down for another the ideal? Unless that is viewed superficically.

I hear alot of talk but don't see alot of laying down of physical life, if that is how you read the scriptures.

I have no problem with a pacifist stance but when you condemn those who protect their families then I think you have stepped beyond what Christ intended.
It is one part of the ideal, yes. And if confronted with such a situation I hope and pray I can rise to the occasion.

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 08:07 PM
I agree with Toolman...we have many Mennonites areound here, who most of are pacifists, including my professor. Talking to him, he did not believe in doing any kind of harm to any person under any circumstance, but he said he would not condemn anyone who felt called to serve in the military either.
I am not condemning anyone.

Toolman
Jul 15th 2005, 08:17 PM
It is one part of the ideal, yes. And if confronted with such a situation I hope and pray I can rise to the occasion.

It seems to me that the ideal is not to wait to be confronted with a situation but to actively seek to physically lay down your life for another.

If we are going to hyper-literally apply what Jesus said then shouldn't you take all that you have, sell it and give it to the poor? That includes your home, cars, clothes, etc, quit your job and be a bullet-shield for persons in Iraq. Isn't that, by your ideal, WJWD?

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I believe your view is off balance. I don't totally disagree with you but I think both sides of this argument are out of whack. I think if a man comes into my home to rape and torture my children that God would hold me in judgement for sit passively by, when He has equipped me to protect my children.

Toolman
Jul 15th 2005, 08:19 PM
I am not condemning anyone.

I find this condemning:


so far most in this discussion can not bring themselves to the point of living by the ideal words of Jesus for fear of their own lives and the lives of their loved ones or property.

con·demn - To express strong disapproval of
To pronounce judgment against
To lend credence to or provide evidence for an adverse judgment against:

I think your interpretation of the ideal words of Jesus is incorrect and unbalanced.

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 08:23 PM
It seems to me that the ideal is not to wait to be confronted with a situation but to actively seek to physically lay down your life for another.

If we are going to hyper-literally apply what Jesus said then shouldn't you take all that you have, sell it and give it to the poor? That includes your home, cars, clothes, etc, quit your job and be a bullet-shield for persons in Iraq. Isn't that, by your ideal, WJWD?

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I believe your view is off balance. I don't totally disagree with you but I think both sides of this argument are out of whack. I think if a man comes into my home to rape and torture my children that God would hold me in judgement for sit passively by, when He has equipped me to protect my children.
At what point do you think my view balances? With your personal possessions, with your own life, that of your loved ones, that of a neighbor, that of a stranger, that going to war for 'God and country'?

Where is the cut off? Or is it always ok to kill if you perceive evil?

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 08:26 PM
I find this condemning:



con·demn - To express strong disapproval of
To pronounce judgment against
To lend credence to or provide evidence for an adverse judgment against:

I think your interpretation of the ideal words of Jesus is incorrect and unbalanced.
Point taken.
So I guess we are all condemning each other.

Toolman
Jul 15th 2005, 08:31 PM
At what point do you think my view balances? With your personal possessions, with your own life, that of your loved ones, that of a neighbor, that of a stranger, that going to war for 'God and country'?

Where is the cut off? Or is it always ok to kill if you perceive evil?

If you are asking where you view is out of balance in regards to the ideals you believe it puts forth:

1) You are currently holding onto your personal possessions and your life and the life of your loved ones, instead of actively selling all you have, giving it all to the poor, and putting you and your families lives on the line to save others.

If you are asking where you view is out of balance in regards to scripture, then that is a more lengthy discussion, which comes down alot to interpretation. I am willing to go there but it might still end the same place we are currently at.

What I was speaking mostly to is I see a HUGE inconsistency in what you are proclaiming and speaking of the ideals that Christ taught. If you interpret His sayings that literally, then #1 above should be your immediate response.

EarlyCall
Jul 15th 2005, 08:37 PM
If I understand you correctly then Duane, if some man came into your home and raped your wife, then murdered her and your children, you would turn the other cheek? Please spare this about laying down your life. Big deal. So you let the guy kill you and then do as he wants with your family. Yea, I'll bet God smiles on that. I'm sure that doesn't fall under not providing fro your family and being worse than the heathen. Nah, I'm sure that doesn't apply at all.


Can I have your address. Seems like all I have to do to rob you is come in, tell you to shut up and turn the other cheek, which would include not calling the cops on me, durring or afterward. I mean afterall, if you call the cops on me, I don't find that very forgiving on your part. Anything to lead you to believe Jesus called the cops on anyone? If He didn't, surely you wouldn't either. You are fond of pointing out what would Jesus do. Plus, I would of course expect you to go the extra mile and help me load up my truck with your posessions. Once that is done, I expect your cloak as well, which is symbolic I'm sure you will admit, therefore, I'll sit aorund while your wife makes me something good to eat and you run to the bank and withdrawl all your money for me.

What was your address again? I think we've got a good plan here. Should help me out since I'm unemployed and you can do a good thing - you know, the Christ-like thing.

Just how far-fetched is my scenario anyway? I dont' think any at all according to what you've been espousing here in this thread. What you've been preaching.

Better send me your address via PM so everyone doesn't show up at the same time. And be fair, I got first dibbs cause I called it first. Yes, that is selfish, but you just rise above that and let God deal with me about it.

So what do you think? We got a plan here or what?

BickBenedict
Jul 15th 2005, 08:39 PM
If I understand you correctly then Duane, if some man came into your home and raped your wife, then murdered her and your children, you would turn the other cheek? Please spare this about laying down your life. Big deal. So you let the guy kill you and then do as he wants with your family. Yea, I'll bet God smiles on that. I'm sure that doesn't fall under not providing fro your family and being worse than the heathen. Nah, I'm sure that doesn't apply at all.


Can I have your address. Seems like all I have to do to rob you is come in, tell you to shut up and turn the other cheek, which would include not calling the cops on me, durring or afterward. I mean afterall, if you call the cops on me, I don't find that very forgiving on your part. Anything to lead you to believe Jesus called the cops on anyone? If He didn't, surely you wouldn't either. You are fond of pointing out what would Jesus do. Plus, I would of course expect you to go the extra mile and help me load up my truck with your posessions. Once that is done, I expect your cloak as well, which is symbolic I'm sure you will admit, therefore, I'll sit aorund while your wife makes me something good to eat and you run to the bank and withdrawl all your money for me.

What was your address again? I think we've got a good plan here. Should help me out since I'm unemployed and you can do a good thing - you know, the Christ-like thing.

Just how far-fetched is my scenario anyway? I dont' think any at all according to what you've been espousing here in this thread. What you've been preaching.

Better send me your address via PM so everyone doesn't show up at the same time. And be fair, I got first dibbs cause I called it first. Yes, that is selfish, but you just rise above that and let God deal with me about it.

So what do you think? We got a plan here or what?

:o :eek: ...wow...that's pretty blunt but I do get what you're getting at. ;)

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 09:03 PM
If you are asking where you view is out of balance in regards to the ideals you believe it puts forth:

1) You are currently holding onto your personal possessions and your life and the life of your loved ones, instead of actively selling all you have, giving it all to the poor, and putting you and your families lives on the line to save others.

If you are asking where you view is out of balance in regards to scripture, then that is a more lengthy discussion, which comes down alot to interpretation. I am willing to go there but it might still end the same place we are currently at.

What I was speaking mostly to is I see a HUGE inconsistency in what you are proclaiming and speaking of the ideals that Christ taught. If you interpret His sayings that literally, then #1 above should be your immediate response.
It was actually asking you where you draw the line with killing another.
And yes, I might be more in line if I did those things.

EarlyCall
Jul 15th 2005, 09:04 PM
:o :eek: ...wow...that's pretty blunt but I do get what you're getting at. ;)

Yes, I'm afraid it is very blunt. But isn't that what is being claimed here? It sure sounds like it to me. We have to live in the real world. The real world is very blunt. Terribly and frightening blunt. So if we are going to claim things, then they need to be claimed in the light under which such things actually do occur, otherwise they are nothing more than words.

And of course I would never do such a thing. And of course the scenario is one I hope never happens. I wish it never happened in the world at all, but it does - all the time.

So what I'm trying to get at here is this: the absolute bottom line. It's ugly - that bottom line.

EarlyCall
Jul 15th 2005, 09:08 PM
Duane. Thanks for the email with your address. I don't need it. You're ok duane. :)


I actually wish you hadn't sent it to me. Now if someone does rob your place, you'll look to me first! Not too worry, I couldn't afford the gas to your place. :D

You know, I'm not surprised you sent it aftwerall. And no, I promise not to give it to anyone nor wil I even remember it.

However, if I ever get out that way, I would actually like to meet you in person cause you strike me as a super person. Can I help it if you got it worng! :rofl:

EarlyCall
Jul 15th 2005, 09:12 PM
No Duane, but really, you have high ideals and their are worthy ideals, and I completely understand why you hold to them. But I don't belive that we are to stand idly by, unless we are being persecuted for Christ's sake. I think any self-defense there is not right.


But I honestly think, and I could be wrong, but if your family was in danger, you'd do all you could to stop it. And I believe God would honor that. I know you claim you wouldn't, but I think it's one of those things that until we are in it, we only know what we think we would or wouldn't do. Like civilians claiming how brave they would be in a fire fight.

Well, anyway, I hope you never ever have to be in a situation where you even have to make such a choice.

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 09:14 PM
Duane. Thanks for the email with your address. I don't need it. You're ok duane. :)


I actually wish you hadn't sent it to me. Now if someone does rob your place, you'll look to me first! Not too worry, I couldn't afford the gas to your place. :D

You know, I'm not surprised you sent it aftwerall. And no, I promise not to give it to anyone nor wil I even remember it.

However, if I ever get out that way, I would actually like to meet you in person cause you strike me as a super person. Can I help it if you got it worng! :rofl:
It would be fun to meet, maybe someday the Lord will arrange it.

I know we do not see I to I on this, and never will. The bottom line is ugly unfortunately, and this is a world of catch-22. Damned if you do and damned if you don't - unless you have faith in Christ and in the way He is leading you personally.

We all walk a slightly different path on that narrow road.

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 09:17 PM
No Duane, but really, you have high ideals and their are worthy ideals, and I completely understand why you hold to them. But I don't belive that we are to stand idly by, unless we are being persecuted for Christ's sake. I think any self-defense there is not right.


But I honestly think, and I could be wrong, but if your family was in danger, you'd do all you could to stop it. And I believe God would honor that. I know you claim you wouldn't, but I think it's one of those things that until we are in it, we only know what we think we would or wouldn't do. Like civilians claiming how brave they would be in a fire fight.

Well, anyway, I hope you never ever have to be in a situation where you even have to make such a choice.
I would try to protect them, but not to the point of killing someone.
And my first line of defense would be the Word of God. Who knows? Maybe the perp would repent and be saved if I tried to show the love of Christ more than a love for violence. Returning love for hate might work.

EarlyCall
Jul 15th 2005, 09:24 PM
I would try to protect them, but not to the point of killing someone.
And my first line of defense would be the Word of God. Who knows? Maybe the perp would repent and be saved if I tried to show the love of Christ more than a love for violence. Returning love for hate might work.

Ok, then I misunderstood you. You would protect them. Ok, I can see doing it but not to the point of killing someone - if that's possible and it very often is possible to be sure. Ok, then I am very glad to hear that. But if they have a weapon, your only choice may be that gun. But like I sid, I sure hope you never face that choice.

And yea, it would be great to meet you somday.

Duane Morse
Jul 15th 2005, 09:39 PM
Ok, then I misunderstood you. You would protect them. Ok, I can see doing it but not to the point of killing someone - if that's possible and it very often is possible to be sure. Ok, then I am very glad to hear that. But if they have a weapon, your only choice may be that gun. But like I sid, I sure hope you never face that choice.

And yea, it would be great to meet you somday.
I hope none of us have to face something like that.
But, look at what happened to Abraham and Issac, he was ready to sacrifice his own son, and by his own hand.

That would be even harder. How many of us could have done the same thing?

Toolman
Jul 16th 2005, 12:47 AM
I would try to protect them, but not to the point of killing someone.
And my first line of defense would be the Word of God. Who knows? Maybe the perp would repent and be saved if I tried to show the love of Christ more than a love for violence. Returning love for hate might work.

But wouldn't protecting them be resisting evil?

Duane Morse
Jul 16th 2005, 01:07 AM
But wouldn't protecting them be resisting evil?
"And my first line of defense would be the Word of God."

Is that resisting evil also? If it is, well...

This thread is about if it is alright to kill, right? Or, did I miss something along the way.

Toolman
Jul 16th 2005, 01:21 AM
"And my first line of defense would be the Word of God."

No, I got that. It was the lines of defense after the first that I was questioning.


This thread is about if it is alright to kill, right? Or, did I miss something along the way.

Well, the logic being used to not kill was an interpretation of Jesus' teachings regarding resisting evil, turning the other cheek, loving enemies, etc. that did not allow for a defense. So, while you may stop at killing them, wouldn't the conclusion of your interpretation also restrict the defending of oneself against evil?

If one is called not to be concerned with life or well-being and to not resist evil (not only killing but any resistance) then once again I see a watering down of what one holds to and an interpretation that is contradictory to the interpretation that one holds to.

Duane Morse
Jul 16th 2005, 01:27 AM
No, I got that. It was the lines of defense after the first that I was questioning.



Well, the logic being used to not kill was an interpretation of Jesus' teachings regarding resisting evil, turning the other cheek, loving enemies, etc. that did not allow for a defense. So, while you may stop at killing them, wouldn't the conclusion of your interpretation also restrict the defending of oneself against evil?

If one is called not to be concerned with life or well-being and to not resist evil (not only killing but any resistance) then once again I see a watering down of what one holds to and an interpretation that is contradictory to the interpretation that one holds to.
I am not sure there is a line of defense past that one in a strict interpretation of His words. I may not be strong enought to let that be my last line of defense, but I would try.


Does that answer you?

Toolman
Jul 16th 2005, 01:57 AM
I am not sure there is a line of defense past that one in a strict interpretation of His words. I may not be strong enought to let that be my last line of defense, but I would try.


Does that answer you?

Sure. I wasn't really seeking an answer but just observing the logical conclusion of the interpretation you are applying.

EarlyCall
Jul 16th 2005, 06:19 AM
Well, I've been thinking about this a bit more tonight.


I think we can safely say that Jesus was and is one with God. Now Jesus claimed He spoke what God wanted Him to sepak. He did as God wanted Him to do.

Your argument Duane, and some others is based on the words of Jesus. Myself and others have brought up the OT times and pointed to examples to argue against your position.

Well, let's drop the OT then and move on to the NT and see if God changed at all concerning this matter of killing.

King Harod when praised as a god by the people did not give the glory to God, and God struck him down, then he was eaten by worms, and then he died. He did not die and was then eaten by worms - it was the other horrible way around.

Then we have God striking down and killing both Annanias and Saphira for lying.

So apparently God had not given up His ways of killing people when it pleased Him.

So, in the OT we see God not only killing people but commanding others to do the same and for different reasons. Goliath, war and death penalty to name a few. In the NT we see God stiking down someone for failing to give God the glory and then two other for lying. I guess if God had changed His ways concerning these matters, then He sure did send come confusing signals in the NT - don't you think so too! Be honest! I mean, isn't there a contradiction then here between what you claim Jesus was espousing and what God was doing? It seems to me there is.

Armistead14
Jul 16th 2005, 06:49 AM
It's hard to understand why God endorses so much killing, but it obvious is there. I can't find the answer why. Sometimes the God of the OT and Jesus seem like two different beings.

Duane Morse
Jul 16th 2005, 07:14 AM
It's hard to understand why God endorses so much killing, but it obvious is there. I can't find the answer why. Sometimes the God of the OT and Jesus seem like two different beings.
Because of the hardness of their hearts...

EarlyCall
Jul 16th 2005, 07:28 AM
Because of the hardness of their hearts...

Yes, but you are not explaining the contrast between Jesus' teachings and your claim of non-violence and God's killing of people. Jesus claimed there was no contrast between Himself and God, and yet with your claims, there most certainly is. Unless you want to claim that God is saying we cannot do it because it is wrong but He can because it is right.

I would suggest a defense against my own argument here. God struck them down for what they did, the three I mentioned, but we could not have done so rightly. I'll admit that. There is no capital offense against not giving glory to God or lying.

But I mentioned and qbee posted the scripture where Paul spoke to the matter of the government concerning punishment of the guilty, but you discounted that as well. The point here is that you base this all on the premise that things changed somehow between the OT and the NT. I'm claiming they did not as evidenced by what I mentioned above. God did not change nor did His commands to the government.

Clearly Jesus was showing us a way to live our personal lives within society as opposed to the harsh unbending rules they were following. In other words, the intent of the law rather than the strict letter of the law interpretation. I think so anyway. You know - love rather than hate.


Oh well, this dead horse has been beaten beyond recognition.

One question I do have to ask though. What is justice if punishment is not given befitting the crime?

Duane Morse
Jul 16th 2005, 07:34 AM
I understand why those that justify killing in the name of 'good and evil' are doing so. But, like I just mentioned, it is because of the hardness of your heart. You who will kill, and I am sorry for saying this, but it is in your heart. It is because of your heardness of heart that you even consider killing an option.


We are not of this world, and you really do not understand the world we are from. I do. The Lord has shown me. In that world, there is no killing, there is no death, there is only growth and happiness.

But, in this world we seem to be required to do things that contradict the pureness.

I can not kill another human being. My death or the death of one of my family are of far less importamce than recieveing death for the sake of even the possibility that they will repent of their evil because of my actions, or as you guys put it, my inaction, for the sake of the gospel.

I have hi standards which the Lord put into my heart. It is the way it should be, maybe not the way it is, but the way it should be.
We need to live for how it should be, not merely how it is.

You guys do not understand death as I do. It is nothing, Nothing at all. We are with the Lord after death. We work here for the good of the Gospel. We die here for the good of the Gospel. We do everything for the good of the Gospel. Why is death so fearfull to you? Is it beacuse you do not really believe as deeply as you should?

EarlyCall
Jul 16th 2005, 07:37 AM
That';s fine Duane you hold to these standards. But I beleive God requires us to execute justice and defend those unable to defend themselves.

But you didn't answer my question. Is it justice to not punish the guilty in a manner befitting the crime?

Duane Morse
Jul 16th 2005, 08:11 AM
Yes, but you are not explaining the contrast between Jesus' teachings and your claim of non-violence and God's killing of people. Jesus claimed there was no contrast between Himself and God, and yet with your claims, there most certainly is. Unless you want to claim that God is saying we cannot do it because it is wrong but He can because it is right.

I would suggest a defense against my own argument here. God struck them down for what they did, the three I mentioned, but we could not have done so rightly. I'll admit that. There is no capital offense against not giving glory to God or lying.

But I mentioned and qbee posted the scripture where Paul spoke to the matter of the government concerning punishment of the guilty, but you discounted that as well. The point here is that you base this all on the premise that things changed somehow between the OT and the NT. I'm claiming they did not as evidenced by what I mentioned above. God did not change nor did His commands to the government.

Clearly Jesus was showing us a way to live our personal lives within society as opposed to the harsh unbending rules they were following. In other words, the intent of the law rather than the strict letter of the law interpretation. I think so anyway. You know - love rather than hate.


Oh well, this dead horse has been beaten beyond recognition.

One question I do have to ask though. What is justice if punishment is not given befitting the crime?
Things did change between the OT and the New. Why can't you see that?
We are in a different world, and I really do not think any of you realize what that truly means.

We are about to go to yet a different world. And none of you really realizes what that means, except that you think everything will be just peachy keen.
Ain't so by a long shot.
We have a long way to go yet.

What do you think the intent of Jesus' words were? To justify more and more killing? He said not to return an eye for an eye, but love for hate.

You want the contrast, well, there it is.

That is how it was done in the old world, this is how it should be done in this world.

EarlyCall
Jul 16th 2005, 01:30 PM
Well, now see there... I don't see how you don't get it! Oh no! Just had a thought... what if we're both wrong?


At the very least we'd have to start a new thread!:D

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2005, 02:23 PM
I call it bloodlust because that is how the attitudes shown here strike my soul.Then something is amiss in your soul.



All the arguements I have encountered have nothing to do with the words of Jesus. I have been told that His words carry no more weight than those of anyone else in the Bible. All the justification for the killing you all are bent on comes from the OT and a few writings of Paul.Uh... they call that Scripture. And what I have showed has not in anyway been inconsistent with Scripture which means it hasn't been inconsistent with the words of Jesus.



Jesus changed how He expects us to respond to violence and evil, but no one seems to care what Jesus said, as long as they find an excuse to kill another.
Self defense, defense of property and land, defense of country and others.
All of these are somehow exempt from the words of Jesus, just because it was done that way in the OT, or because Jesus did not admonish the soldiers, or because Paul says certain things.You are wrong. Jesus did not change the law that we are to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and equally important we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. That has never changed in either testament period has it?



Tell me, all of you that justify your desire to kill, when do you turn the other cheek?I'll not answer the silly little questions you put out because of your continued gross misrepresentation as you put in your little words like "justify your DESIRE to kill junk." What you are doing now is obviously intentional Duane and that sets you in a place called sin. I have repeatedly explained that there is no desire at all. Zero. God knows I wished it never happened. Said that many a time in this thread but that doesn't stop you from tossing out these little digs every time you can. It is dishonesty pure and simple at this point so there is no need to continue the dialogue with you.

EarlyCall
Jul 16th 2005, 04:22 PM
In the article linked to in a thread titled, "Some interesting onfo on porn addiction", the lady in the article, interestingly enough, speaks to these ideals concerning the words of Jesus that you so often refer to Duane. I think what she has said follows what I said a few posts back, but she said it far better and with some historical evidence to back it up - rather than merely your opinion or my own.

I know you won't buy it, but I find it makes perfect sense and does have the backing of the times and customs of that time. I tend to find that carries more weight than someone's opinion oftentimes.

PeterJ
Jul 17th 2005, 08:15 PM
So most of you seem to argee that killing people is wrong.

When Bush mentions his crusade and God when going to war, is he right?
Bush and the allies are murderous as they are murderers taking lives away by pulling the triggers when they open there mouths.

With all these wars going around the world,does God think it's ok?
make war which kills millions over the decades.

What mankind is doing is repeating the past wars of the history,that's all they do these leaders are responsible for these death's of innocent people in the process.

If they just all did nothing in the first place,would not God do something,
Surely God would protect israel if it was attack.

A lot of tension has happen cause of the US and allies with israel.
In the bible did other lands come in and help isreal?
it would seem unfair if the did not get help.
God can protect isreal and will from any nuke attack's.
What is the right thing to do?

Are they being helped cause the jews don't want Jesus back yet in there lives? or what happen cause of the WW 1 and WW2?
Did not the allies help them?

am confused what is right here?

Now it would be diffent if God told Bush to attack these lands iraq etc then it would be ok right? hmm

But we don't know this or do we?

Maybe the allies and Us think they ok but it's making them look like the bad guys to the world more so if they go and attack other places again.


God does not need army's fighting for peace which still never realy brings peace,God can stop all this if and when he want's to and we know one day he will.

All it does is make's thing's worst in the future that bring in more wars.

So these leader's had better repent for the order's they given to kill. saved or unsaved they won't enter Heaven cause they are sinning going against
the bible. yes?
(unless they repent)

US is a great place with great people and it's a shame people over the world hate it,cause of the action's of the leaders, in the past it was loved not hate.

I hope they get a new leader and the same goes with UK leader mr brair who is wrong to.

They are not hero's the real hero's in the US and other people around the world are those saved christain's,pastors who spread the word of are lord Jesus Christ in the US and all over the world they have done so much and have been killed for spreading the word.

Now just think about this what if the big pastors in the world carryed a gun to protect themselfs when they are telling of Jesus and shoot there attackers,how bad would that look on them? very bad and could be seen as evil,no they don't do this.

Paster so and so how did you do in your trip?

Well i saved 10 people and killed 10 people.

How does that sound like? if every pastor did this?
would it save more or less people?

The attacker's would see the gun as a greater threat to them and there's a higher % chance of them killing them.
Christains also get threaten to leave or else or just get away.

There are some tough places in the world where people have not heard of Jesus,but the word does reach there.


(Do you think you be more lucky cause you have the power to kill also.)

Look at Dr who in the 80s a90s he never used a gun or carryed 1 for good reasons he lived so long.

These leaders who say they are saved are doing this carrying a gun and fireing it,people hear they are christain's and hate what they do, it give's me a hard time when i talk to the unsaved of the Gospel.

Do you see what iam talking about now of there incorrections. how bad and evil the world can precived them, you see the diffent's btw the leaders and the pastors.

That was what Jesus taught us in MAT in the bible, not to kill someone so that would be 1 less person they would kill, when you help someone get saved to live forever that is more inportant than human life, are purpose on earth is to spread the word not to kill.

But people have freewill.

If more people was saved less people would die.

The bible teaches not to fight fire with fire,if you kill,murder start a war,thing's will get worst and more people will die on each side.

The bible say's to Love our enemies, how can you love them if you kill them?

Yours Peter

ProjectPeter
Jul 17th 2005, 09:17 PM
So most of you seem to argee that killing people is wrong.

When Bush mentions his crusade and God when going to war, is he right?
Bush and the allies are murderous as they are murderers taking lives away by pulling the triggers when they open there mouths.

With all these wars going around the world,does God think it's ok?
make war which kills millions over the decades.

What mankind is doing is repeating the past wars of the history,that's all they do these leaders are responsible for these death's of innocent people in the process.

If they just all did nothing in the first place,would not God do something,
Surely God would protect israel if it was attack.

A lot of tension has happen cause of the US and allies with israel.
In the bible did other lands come in and help isreal?
it would seem unfair if the did not get help.
God can protect isreal and will from any nuke attack's.
What is the right thing to do?

Are they being helped cause the jews don't want Jesus back yet in there lives? or what happen cause of the WW 1 and WW2?
Did not the allies help them?

am confused what is right here?

Now it would be diffent if God told Bush to attack these lands iraq etc then it would be ok right? hmm

But we don't know this or do we?

Maybe the allies and Us think they ok but it's making them look like the bad guys to the world more so if they go and attack other places again.


God does not need army's fighting for peace which still never realy brings peace,God can stop all this if and when he want's to and we know one day he will.

All it does is make's thing's worst in the future that bring in more wars.

So these leader's had better repent for the order's they given to kill. saved or unsaved they won't enter Heaven cause they are sinning going against
the bible. yes?
(unless they repent)

US is a great place with great people and it's a shame people over the world hate it,cause of the action's of the leaders, in the past it was loved not hate.

I hope they get a new leader and the same goes with UK leader mr brair who is wrong to.

They are not hero's the real hero's in the US and other people around the world are those saved christain's,pastors who spread the word of are lord Jesus Christ in the US and all over the world they have done so much and have been killed for spreading the word.

Now just think about this what if the big pastors in the world carryed a gun to protect themselfs when they are telling of Jesus and shoot there attackers,how bad would that look on them? very bad and could be seen as evil,no they don't do this.

Paster so and so how did you do in your trip?

Well i saved 10 people and killed 10 people.

How does that sound like? if every pastor did this?
would it save more or less people?

The attacker's would see the gun as a greater threat to them and there's a higher % chance of them killing them.
Christains also get threaten to leave or else or just get away.

There are some tough places in the world where people have not heard of Jesus,but the word does reach there.


(Do you think you be more lucky cause you have the power to kill also.)

Look at Dr who in the 80s a90s he never used a gun or carryed 1 for good reasons he lived so long.

These leaders who say they are saved are doing this carrying a gun and fireing it,people hear they are christain's and hate what they do, it give's me a hard time when i talk to the unsaved of the Gospel.

Do you see what iam talking about now of there incorrections. how bad and evil the world can precived them, you see the diffent's btw the leaders and the pastors.

That was what Jesus taught us in MAT in the bible, not to kill someone so that would be 1 less person they would kill, when you help someone get saved to live forever that is more inportant than human life, are purpose on earth is to spread the word not to kill.

But people have freewill.

If more people was saved less people would die.

The bible teaches not to fight fire with fire,if you kill,murder start a war,thing's will get worst and more people will die on each side.

The bible say's to Love our enemies, how can you love them if you kill them?

Yours Peter
I guess what is confusing to me Peter is that you say you are confused and then you ask questions and right after that you give us your opinion as to why it is sinful and wrong. What I see is that you really aren't asking questions for answers but simply stating your opinion. If that isn't what you are doing then you've sure enough got me confused.

PeterJ
Jul 17th 2005, 09:40 PM
Sorry i ment i was confuse about what or not they should of done with isreal.
Confused just with that part :)

Peter

Steven3
Sep 12th 2007, 08:52 AM
Hi Peter :)
Bible say's to kill, murder someone is a sin.

If God told someone saved, to kill some people, that make's it ok ?and not a sin?
Whether it saves other lives or not by killing them.?

Just a question on my mind as i think God told someone in the bible to kill.
Can't remember the verse ?
If they did it's not a sin?

Yours Peter

If you're a Jew, it's okay.

If you're a Christian then it's not. (Matt 5:39, 26:52, John 18:36)

The OT and NT have different standards on violence. The Law allows killing, but grace does not.
God bless
Steven

RedBird777
Sep 13th 2007, 02:45 AM
This is an interesting thread, but I can not read the whole thing. I will still, however, give my opinion.

the sixth commandment says "Thou shalt not murder." It doesn't say kill, but murder.

Now God has used nations to destroy other nations (including the men, women, and children). He also demanded that people be put to death. That is killing, but not murdering.

Murdering would be going out of one's way to take the life of someone else. It may be out of malicious intent, or just because one is mentally unstable.

There are times when one can kill another human without it being a sin. If someone assails another person, and the victim kills the assailant in the struggle, then it is ok. It will definitely make the victim feel horrible because they just took the life of another, but they did what they had to do to keep their life.
Even though Jesus told people to turn the other cheek, I don't think he meant to take a bullet to the chest if someone comes after you with a gun.

BM5
Sep 13th 2007, 02:54 AM
Bible say's to kill,murder someone is a sin.

If God told someone saved, to kill some people, that make's it ok ?and not a sin?
Weather it save other lives or not by killing them.?

Just a question on my mind as i think God told someone in the bible to kill.
Can't remember the verse ?
If they did it's not a sin?

Yours Peter



Did you ever consider the idea that the Commandment should read, " Thou shalt not kill UNJUSTLY ?

Allowing of course God's Law to determine the justice of it all.

Steven3
Sep 13th 2007, 10:35 AM
Hi everyone :)
Again, a lot of these posts are failing to appreciate that the Jews were under Law not Grace, of course they could kill, God even commanded Joshua to kill women and children. But we aren't Jews, we aren't under the OT or the Law any more.


Hi RedBird777 :)
Even though Jesus told people to turn the other cheek, I don't think he meant to take a bullet to the chest if someone comes after you with a gun.

I was mugged once - jumped from the back by two guys with a stick, I was knocked to the ground but got in a good kick at one of them before the second blow fell, and let off a roar that woke the street. Then sprang back up and ran like Carl Lewis.

The point is however that it wasn't so much "me" as adrenalin and basic instinct that got me out of that.

Most of the scenarios Christ is talking about in the Gospels aren't like that, they're when you have time to think.

It takes thought and planning to take revenge, it takes thought and planning to buy and license a gun to keep in a locked box in the bedside table, It takes thought and planning to answer the draft or enlist and go fight at Gettysburg / The Somme / D-Day Landings / Vietnam / Iraq, etc.

Those kind of situations are when Christians have time to decide whether to follow John 18:36 and the other non-violence verses or not.
God bless
Steven

AlainaJ
Sep 13th 2007, 03:01 PM
Luke.22 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4739174)

[36] Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
[38] And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
[49] When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

[52] Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?Jesus is telling His disciples- hey, you might have to defend your self- get a sword.:)

Steven3
Sep 13th 2007, 03:39 PM
Hi Alaina :)
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Tell me, how are two swords enough for twelve men? :)


Jesus is telling His disciples- hey, you might have to defend your self- get a sword.:)No, I don't think so:

Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

God bless
S.