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Armistead14
Aug 28th 2005, 05:11 AM
I believe that God exist, to clear that up. that he created all things.

However, if God didn't exist, what would be left. It got me thinking. What could possible exist, without God.

The only two things that I can think of, would be space. Even if nothing is there, nothing takes up space, even if it's empty space. Thus space, and we know it to be true, is eternal, because it never ends.

The other would be time, time as we know it, doesn't really exist, because it's endless. there was never a time, that there wasn't time, forward or backward, it's endless and eternal.

Space and time, as we know it are a part of God's Character, He's everywhere and timeless.
But if God didn't exist, what would happen of space and time. they would still have to be there.
Think about it and I will reply tomorrow.

Slug1
Aug 28th 2005, 05:20 AM
This is to much thinking for me :eek:.

slayerment
Aug 28th 2005, 05:55 AM
I think it's hard to think about these questions because God has always been therefore space and time has always been... yeah? If there was no God there would be no space or time IMO. There would be nothing.

punk
Aug 28th 2005, 06:10 AM
I believe that God exist, to clear that up. that he created all things.

However, if God didn't exist, what would be left. It got me thinking. What could possible exist, without God.

The only two things that I can think of, would be space. Even if nothing is there, nothing takes up space, even if it's empty space. Thus space, and we know it to be true, is eternal, because it never ends.

The other would be time, time as we know it, doesn't really exist, because it's endless. there was never a time, that there wasn't time, forward or backward, it's endless and eternal.

Space and time, as we know it are a part of God's Character, He's everywhere and timeless.
But if God didn't exist, what would happen of space and time. they would still have to be there.
Think about it and I will reply tomorrow.

The student of modern physics would have to contend that space and time aren't absolutes either.

In the big bang model space and time are *created* in the big bang. There is no such things as time "before" the big bang, nor was there any place to be.

qbee
Aug 28th 2005, 06:15 AM
Without God there would be no space no time there would be nothing..
nothing can exist without God.. Time is a measurement God created
for man with the sun and moon for man to perceive.. and wouldnt exist ..

There would be nothing .. space is only space if is perceived by someone.

Nothing .. means absence of anything .. including time and space ..

If you want to know absolutley nothing click here :lol:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=14362

TEITZY
Aug 28th 2005, 07:20 AM
Col 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
However if you're an atheist or evolutionist then everything was made from nothing to begin with. Not sure how that works. Faith perhaps:)

Cheers
Leigh

Keemah
Aug 28th 2005, 01:42 PM
Since God is life, if God didn't exist, we wouldn't exist either, nothing would.

FaithSeeker
Aug 28th 2005, 02:26 PM
I have a question that is sort of related to this. Before God created the heavens and the earth, where was He? Can the spirtual realm exist without some kind of physical realm?

Come to think of it here is another very perplexing question, what was God doing for all eternity before He created us?

http://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/eek2.gif

slayerment
Aug 28th 2005, 05:14 PM
A spiritual realm isn't physical and can exist w/o a physical realm. Before he created the heavens and the earth he was everywhere just as he is now.

Who's to say God didn't have other worlds with other beings w/ spirits before he created man?

cheech
Aug 28th 2005, 06:01 PM
I have a question that is sort of related to this. Before God created the heavens and the earth, where was He? Can the spirtual realm exist without some kind of physical realm?

Come to think of it here is another very perplexing question, what was God doing for all eternity before He created us? http://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/eek2.gif

I've often thought of this...so where DID God come from? Was he the ONLY living spirit before he made things? This goes along with "how far IS up?" :D

Slug1
Aug 28th 2005, 06:03 PM
I've often thought of this...so where DID God come from? Was he the ONLY living spirit before he made things? This goes along with "how far IS up?" :D

Or how long is a piece of string?

slayerment
Aug 28th 2005, 06:37 PM
It is human to think that all things have to come from something. It is also human to have a beginning and end. All things are of something else on earth, but beyond this I really don't believe it has to hold true.

Armistead14
Aug 28th 2005, 08:09 PM
When I say time exist, i'm not talking abouot time as we know it. But tiem meaning, forward or backward, time never ends.

Nothing is space. Meaning, nothing is something. Obivous these two things would have always existed.
Space and time are eternal, I guess, just like God. I was just wondering. many scientist use this arguement, that God didn't have to exist, in order for things to exist. meaning, space and time are always constant factors. Say, before God created anything, space and time were still endless.

Obvious, these are two characters of God, no time, and he is everywhere and has always been. they will argue, If God didn't exist, that space and time would still have to exist. If nothing was there, it's still there.

slayerment
Aug 29th 2005, 04:58 AM
How do you conclude that nothing is space? What if you take space away, are you still left with space?

mikebr
Aug 29th 2005, 03:39 PM
If the universe is ever expanding, what is out past the edges of space?

Time is a necessity of Space. Without Space there is no time. When matter was created and given mass you had distance. Distance necessitates time. If God is everywhere, some would argue that He is not, I would say that there is no distance in Him and therefore no need for space. If He was everywhere then He was everything. A Creator can not ReCreate Himself or anything equal to Himself, thus anything that He created would be less than Him and would necessitate space and time.

punk
Aug 30th 2005, 02:33 AM
When I say time exist, i'm not talking abouot time as we know it. But tiem meaning, forward or backward, time never ends.

Nothing is space. Meaning, nothing is something. Obivous these two things would have always existed.
Space and time are eternal, I guess, just like God. I was just wondering. many scientist use this arguement, that God didn't have to exist, in order for things to exist. meaning, space and time are always constant factors. Say, before God created anything, space and time were still endless.

Obvious, these are two characters of God, no time, and he is everywhere and has always been. they will argue, If God didn't exist, that space and time would still have to exist. If nothing was there, it's still there.

Sorry, there are perfectly good physical models where time begins and ends (just as space comes into being a ceases to exist). That is to say there is a point in time that there was no point in time prior to and a point in time that there is no point in time following.

Any sort of mention of "time" but not our time and "space" but not our space has no meaning. If anything it points to weakness in our thinking power.

It certainly bakes the noodle, but hey, it worked for Einstein.

HornlessUnicorn
Nov 22nd 2007, 11:44 PM
Remember what God told Moses His name was? "I Am".
:)

Realist1981
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:27 AM
These questions remind me when I was verry little. If God created the heavens and the earth what was he doing before that? I doubt that he was idle. He probably created the angels before he created the heavens and the earth. He probably created alot of things we don't know of right now. Generally speaking, the Bible is the story of God's involvment with man. The Fall of man, redemption of man, and ressurection of man by God through his son

Anyways, I digress, to answer the OP's question if God didn't exist then space and everything within that space would'nt either

Doer
Nov 23rd 2007, 05:41 PM
These questions remind me when I was verry little. If God created the heavens and the earth what was he doing before that? I doubt that he was idle. He probably created the angels before he created the heavens and the earth. He probably created alot of things we don't know of right now. Generally speaking, the Bible is the story of God's involvment with man. The Fall of man, redemption of man, and ressurection of man by God through his son

Anyways, I digress, to answer the OP's question if God didn't exist then space and everything within that space would'nt either


Yeah thats very interesting, what was God doing before he created the heavenly realms? Its interesting, but something we can't and shouldn't try to understand.

A820djd
Nov 23rd 2007, 05:48 PM
Yeah thats very interesting, what was God doing before he created the heavenly realms? Its interesting, but something we can't and shouldn't try to understand.

For now... 15chars

dan
Nov 24th 2007, 05:57 AM
I believe that God exist, to clear that up. that he created all things.

However, if God didn't exist, what would be left. It got me thinking. What could possible exist, without God.

The only two things that I can think of, would be space. Even if nothing is there, nothing takes up space, even if it's empty space. Thus space, and we know it to be true, is eternal, because it never ends.

The other would be time, time as we know it, doesn't really exist, because it's endless. there was never a time, that there wasn't time, forward or backward, it's endless and eternal.

Space and time, as we know it are a part of God's Character, He's everywhere and timeless.
But if God didn't exist, what would happen of space and time. they would still have to be there.
Think about it and I will reply tomorrow.

...That statisticians consider the odds of one in ten to the fiftieth power too great to have a chance of ever happening, then man would never have been put together.

hootinannie
Nov 24th 2007, 08:11 AM
If the universe is ever expanding, what is out past the edges of space?

I read recently in a scientific journal in my doctor's office (can't remember the name of the mag) that scientists and astronomers are now claiming that our universe (as endless as it seems) is only one universe in a UNIVERSE of UNIVERSES....forget solar systems and galaxies...now it's one universe in a universe of universes.

Here is what I believe....God is a Creator and He never changes. If He ever WAS a Creator, He is STILL a Creator. The Bible says that on the seventh day, God rested.....it doesn't say He QUIT!!! He may have quit creating on THIS planet, but that doesn't mean He quit creating all other heavenly bodies. I believe that the reason they think the universe is still expanding is that God is still creating. I'm not going to build a doctrine around that, or dogmatically defend it. I just believe that God is still creating.

Hoot

punk
Nov 25th 2007, 12:15 AM
I read recently in a scientific journal in my doctor's office (can't remember the name of the mag) that scientists and astronomers are now claiming that our universe (as endless as it seems) is only one universe in a UNIVERSE of UNIVERSES....forget solar systems and galaxies...now it's one universe in a universe of universes.

Yes, some people are saying this.

But let's note: this truly is groundless speculation, and the majority of scientists in fields close to this will tell you it is based on not one shred of empirical evidence.

This thinking really falls out of some problems cropping up in String Theory (which also is something based on not one shred of empirical evidence).

IMHO, String Theory is bunk and this multiverse nonsense is bunk as well.

Joe King
Nov 25th 2007, 06:22 PM
God exists outside the realm of time. God is space. God is everything. I love God.

Athanasius
Dec 19th 2007, 08:09 PM
I believe that God exist, to clear that up. that he created all things.

However, if God didn't exist, what would be left. It got me thinking. What could possible exist, without God.

The only two things that I can think of, would be space. Even if nothing is there, nothing takes up space, even if it's empty space. Thus space, and we know it to be true, is eternal, because it never ends.

The other would be time, time as we know it, doesn't really exist, because it's endless. there was never a time, that there wasn't time, forward or backward, it's endless and eternal.

Space and time, as we know it are a part of God's Character, He's everywhere and timeless.
But if God didn't exist, what would happen of space and time. they would still have to be there.
Think about it and I will reply tomorrow.

Time however, is fairly arbitrary.
It isn't a constant (changes with velocity and gravity wells, such as black holes). There are two ways to measure time: entropy and cesium. Currently, cesium (atomic clocks) is the preferred method, though compared to entropic calculations isn't as accurate.

Without God there would be huge hurdles to scientific thought.
1) There would be no constant, absolute laws, through time and 'evolution' something (eventually everything) would change.
2) There would either be an infinite universe, preexistent material (Big Bang) or a 'first cause' which couldn't be explained.

If God wasn't there, He simply would not be there. Whatever 'space' he takes up would be outside our space time continuum. Since God was effectively the 'First Cause', He would be outside and unaffected by that which he 'caused'.

If God didn't exist, everything is meaningless. Life's purpose and value come only from that value we assign it.

Life is realistic terms is without hope, not that hope would actually exist.



Yes, some people are saying this.

But let's note: this truly is groundless speculation, and the majority of scientists in fields close to this will tell you it is based on not one shred of empirical evidence.

This thinking really falls out of some problems cropping up in String Theory (which also is something based on not one shred of empirical evidence).

IMHO, String Theory is bunk and this multiverse nonsense is bunk as well.

Among the more 'out there' scientific groups, there is a claim that a theory of everything has already been developed and has been in existence for over thirty years. So why haven't we heard of it, what's the problem? Well, they realized it would necessitate the existence of (a) God.

Multiverse theory isn't so much tied to M or super string theory as it is to quantum mechanics. It's severe speculation, but it isn't completely groundless.

A multiverse of possibilities is an unsettling concept. The biggest being that there isn't one you.

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 19th 2007, 08:29 PM
We don't really understand "nothing". To us, nothing is merely a void- the absence of anything else. The nothing that would exist without God is absolutely beyond our reason. While it's fun to try and grapple with the concept, it is inevitably entirely fruitless.

Athanasius
Dec 19th 2007, 08:33 PM
We don't really understand "nothing". To us, nothing is merely a void- the absence of anything else. The nothing that would exist without God is absolutely beyond our reason. While it's fun to try and grapple with the concept, it is inevitably entirely fruitless.

Completely, it's like the word 'chance'. We can't comprehend a nothing, all we're familiar with are somethings. I agree with you, however.

punk
Dec 19th 2007, 09:45 PM
Among the more 'out there' scientific groups, there is a claim that a theory of everything has already been developed and has been in existence for over thirty years. So why haven't we heard of it, what's the problem? Well, they realized it would necessitate the existence of (a) God.

What "theory of everything" are you referring to?


Multiverse theory isn't so much tied to M or super string theory as it is to quantum mechanics. It's severe speculation, but it isn't completely groundless.

You are confusing the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics with the "multiverse" theory which really is something from string theory (look up "cosmic landscape").

Athanasius
Dec 19th 2007, 10:01 PM
What "theory of everything" are you referring to?

Don't recall the name.



You are confusing the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics with the "multiverse" theory which really is something from string theory (look up "cosmic landscape").

You're correct, I confused the terms.

Semi-tortured
Dec 19th 2007, 10:38 PM
Well, if time was created as a result of the universe beginning, then it's possible that since God exists outside of time, that he is already enjoying eternity with us.

We are already there as far as God is concerned because there is no time to God. In fact, we've always been there? :confused

:eek: :giveup:

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 19th 2007, 10:48 PM
Well, if time was created as a result of the universe beginning, then it's possible that since God exists outside of time, that he is already enjoying eternity with us.

We are already there as far as God is concerned because there is no time to God. In fact, we've always been there? :confused

:eek: :giveup:

That's an interesting one. I've been thinking about time recently, and while God exists outside of time, He likewise exists within it. But what about heaven? If there's no time of any kind in heaven, we're there, and we must always have been there- you can't 'arrive' somewhere without time. So were we therefore all there from the beginning, before the creation? And can Jesus ever have 'left'? It truly is mind boggling. I can't wait to find out how it works :D

Athanasius
Dec 19th 2007, 10:49 PM
Well, if time was created as a result of the universe beginning, then it's possible that since God exists outside of time, that he is already enjoying eternity with us.

We are already there as far as God is concerned because there is no time to God. In fact, we've always been there? :confused

:eek: :giveup:

Likewise, every point in 'time' (in our linear history) would be happening all the time. . .

ProjectPeter
Dec 22nd 2007, 07:03 PM
Speaking of time... since this thread is way old and some of the folks (original poster) are no longer part of the board... let's call this one closed. :)