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Ta-An
Oct 24th 2005, 02:27 PM
Short from reading the book of Leviticus and compiling all of this.......
Where do I find all 613 laws ??

Fenris
Oct 24th 2005, 02:29 PM
They have been codified several times over the ages. Not all versions agree with one another. If you like, I can try to find you a list.

Kahtar
Oct 24th 2005, 02:31 PM
Short from reading the book of Leviticus and compiling all of this.......
Where do I find all 613 laws ??I think yo can find them on Judaism101.com.
Oops, sorry, that would be jewfaq.org

Ta-An
Oct 24th 2005, 02:37 PM
Thank you!!! :pp
I found it
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Kahtar
Oct 24th 2005, 02:45 PM
You're welcome!:lol:

Fenris
Oct 24th 2005, 02:45 PM
This is the Rambam's (Maimonides) list. The Ramban (Nachmonides) interestingly enough, does not include belief in God as being one of the 613 Mitzvos.

Kahtar
Oct 24th 2005, 02:47 PM
This is the Rambam's (Maimonides) list. The Ramban (Nachmonides) interestingly enough, does not include belief in God as being one of the 613 Mitzvos.Hmmm. That's interesting. What's the point of the 613 if you don't believe in God?

Fenris
Oct 24th 2005, 02:51 PM
Hmmm. That's interesting. What's the point of the 613 if you don't believe in God?That's his point. You're doing the 613 because you believe in God.

Kahtar
Oct 24th 2005, 02:55 PM
That's his point. You're doing the 613 because you believe in God.Ahh. I get it. :)

Ta-An
Oct 24th 2005, 03:27 PM
That's his point. You're doing the 613 because you believe in God.Ahhh.............. the law is written on your heart.... Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
So I need not do each one individually :hmm: , but because I love G_d, with all my heart and mind, I'll do what is right ....

Fenris
Oct 24th 2005, 03:30 PM
Uh, if you say so.

literaryjoe
Oct 24th 2005, 04:09 PM
Ahhh.............. the law is written on your heart.... Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
So I need not do each one individually :hmm: , but because I love G_d, with all my heart and mind, I'll do what is right ....Ah, a statement of what may be the biggest Christian fallacy in history.

"Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. So I need not do each one individually." This statement is so cock-eyed, and illogical it never ceases to awaken horror within me.

Try this one on for size. "The fulfillment of the Driver's Code is to drive safely. Therefore, I need not obey every individual command of the Driver's Code, I simply need to drive safely with all my heart and mind." As if to "drive safely with all my heart and mind" can possibly not subsist of obeying every single command of the Driver's Code!!!

PLEASE recognize the absolute insanity of your conclusion! I plead with you.

Ta-An
Oct 24th 2005, 04:25 PM
PLEASE recognize the absolute insanity of your conclusion! I plead with you.Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

So I need not do each one individually How do I destroy the seed of Amalek??
Some of these laws I can not keep!! example..."Not to sprinkle the blood of blemished cattle upon the altar" literaly..... I do not bring offers in that way....
"Not to eat bread made of new grain before the Omer of barley has been offered up on the second day of Passover " how do I know where the grain comes from...I buy it in the shop...I am not a farmer...:dunno:

Fenris
Oct 24th 2005, 04:26 PM
Ah, a statement of what may be the biggest Christian fallacy in history.

"Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. So I need not do each one individually." This statement is so cock-eyed, and illogical it never ceases to awaken horror within me.

Try this one on for size. "The fulfillment of the Driver's Code is to drive safely. Therefore, I need not obey every individual command of the Driver's Code, I simply need to drive safely with all my heart and mind." As if to "drive safely with all my heart and mind" can possibly not subsist of obeying every single command of the Driver's Code!!!

PLEASE recognize the absolute insanity of your conclusion! I plead with you.Very well said.

PastorMark
Oct 24th 2005, 06:30 PM
I suspect this isn't what ACCM was saying. Looks to me like she was saying that real, godly love motivates one to try do what is right—including keeping the law.

On top of that, please be careful to avoid name-calling or otherwise belittling of our members. If one of the 613 doesn't deal with that, it's still the rules 'round here. ;)

Ah, a statement of what may be the biggest Christian fallacy in history.

"Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. So I need not do each one individually." This statement is so cock-eyed, and illogical it never ceases to awaken horror within me.

...

PLEASE recognize the absolute insanity of your conclusion! I plead with you.

qbee
Oct 24th 2005, 06:49 PM
Ahhh.............. the law is written on your heart.... Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
So I need not do each one individually :hmm: , but because I love G_d, with all my heart and mind, I'll do what is right ....

This is correct you do not need to obey the ordinances and all 613 laws. It is impossible for a man
to fulfill these .. We now fufill the law if we obey the two commandment of Love from Christ.
Because Christ himself has already fufilled all the law and the prophets .. and gave us the laws
in which we should follow. God is concerned in how we treat our fellow man in a loving manner
in which he has also treated us through Christ ... That is What is important to God ..

WE bring Christ to the world :hug: ... NOT 613 laws :eek: to be fufilled...
God forbid ... that would negate Christs sacrifice and forgivness ..

Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:
for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :)

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt
not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if
there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this
saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. :)

Ta-An
Oct 24th 2005, 06:55 PM
I suspect this isn't what ACCM was saying. Looks to me like she was saying that real, godly love motivates one to try do what is right—including keeping the law. Thanks PastorMark, I thought I was going insane, I could not see what these guys are mad at me for......

It is our love for G_d that makes us/ motivates us to keep the law as far as possible....

If on of the 613 doesn't deal with that, it's still the rules 'round here. ;);) It actually does,,,,, but I forgive them :)

So I need not do each one individually :hmm: , but because I love G_d, with all my heart and mind, I'll do what is right LJ, can you interpret the " :hmm: " ????? I am also saying that if I can not or do not keep all 613 laws, that it does not mean that I do not love G_d.

:help: :giveup:

Fenris
Oct 24th 2005, 08:12 PM
God doesn't expect us to fulfill the 613 perfectly. He does, however, expect us to try. So we believe.

literaryjoe
Oct 24th 2005, 10:24 PM
Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
How do I destroy the seed of Amalek??
Some of these laws I can not keep!! example..."Not to sprinkle the blood of blemished cattle upon the altar" literaly..... I do not bring offers in that way....
"Not to eat bread made of new grain before the Omer of barley has been offered up on the second day of Passover " how do I know where the grain comes from...I buy it in the shop...I am not a farmer...:dunno:If you are not at a stoplight, of course the law regarding stopping at a red light does not currently apply. If you are driving down the highway, of course, the law regarding turning right on red or not doing so does not apply. If you're in Indiana, the law says you can turn right on a red, unless there is a sign specifically prohibiting it. In other states, the law does not allow turning right on red. (Sorry I'm not familiar with South African traffic laws to make this more applicable)

Similarly, not ever having encountered an Amalekite the command doesn't apply. Not being presently applicable does not equate to not being in force.

literaryjoe
Oct 24th 2005, 10:29 PM
I suspect this isn't what ACCM was saying. Looks to me like she was saying that real, godly love motivates one to try do what is right—including keeping the law.

On top of that, please be careful to avoid name-calling or otherwise belittling of our members. If one of the 613 doesn't deal with that, it's still the rules 'round here. ;)Strongly worded language does not necessarily equate to belittling language and I think ACCM knows I would not belittle her. On the other hand, I do want to "shock" her into re-thinking what she had expressed.

literaryjoe
Oct 24th 2005, 10:30 PM
This is correct you do not need to obey the ordinances and all 613 laws. It is impossible for a man
to fulfill these .. We now fufill the law if we obey the two commandment of Love from Christ.
Because Christ himself has already fufilled all the law and the prophets .. and gave us the laws
in which we should follow. God is concerned in how we treat our fellow man in a loving manner
in which he has also treated us through Christ ... That is What is important to God ..

WE bring Christ to the world :hug: ... NOT 613 laws :eek: to be fufilled...
God forbid ... that would negate Christs sacrifice and forgivness ..

Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:
for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. :)

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt
not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if
there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this
saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. :) I just showed clearly that this does not make logical sense, why do you persist in repeating it? If you're going to re-assert this, at least engage my argument in an effort to show why you hold to the above anyway.

literaryjoe
Oct 24th 2005, 10:35 PM
Thanks PastorMark, I thought I was going insane, I could not see what these guys are mad at me for......I'm upset by someone who understands SO much clinging to a personally justifying illogical premise.


It is our love for G_d that makes us/ motivates us to keep the law as far as possible....Agreed, of course there is no end to the "as far as possible...

;) It actually does,,,,, but I forgive them :) no need for forgiveness existed, but I appreciate that had it been there you would have exhibited a forgiving spirit...in keeping with the Law.

LJ, can you interpret the " :hmm: " ????? I am also saying that if I can not or do not keep all 613 laws, that it does not mean that I do not love G_d. I can, but I also interpret the "also". Did God say, "if you love me you keep most of my commandments" or "as many of my commands as are practical or convenient or not culturally unacceptable"?

:help: :giveup:Don't give up; reconsider.

Clouds & Spikes
Oct 24th 2005, 11:21 PM
LJ,

This may be an uneducated question (i try), but why don't you still sacrifice animals to atone for sins if you still feel that we are under all of these restrictions?

Is it because there is no temple to do so? If that is the case, why hasn't one been built?


I'm really curious about this, LJ. I was taught the same as ACCM and your response has definitely intrigued me :).

Brandon

qbee
Oct 25th 2005, 02:16 AM
I just showed clearly that this does not make logical sense, why do you persist in repeating it? If you're going to re-assert this, at least engage my argument in an effort why you hold to the above anyway.

I hold to the scripture I posted because I am a Christian ..
Not a NON-Christian Jew like fenris who agrees with your interpretation .. :hmm:
Because he is a Jew and still under the law ..

I am a gentile and a Christian and I am no longer in bondage to the
613 Mosaic laws of the old testimate .. I am now under Christ
he fulfilled ALL the laws and the prophets .. I am under his authority
and fulfill the law by obeying his commandments. I am no longer judged
by what I eat or what day I worship or where I worship .. I am to love
my fellowman and bring them to Christ through the gospel.. We in no
way bring any man to or under the 613 laws or the Mosaic or levitacal laws.
We bring them to Christ .. to worship in spirit and in truth ..
Not by obeying impossible laws that needed animal sacrifices to atone
for breaking them ...

The law was a teacher and a strick teacher to show us it was impossible to
follow .. Christ saved us from having this heavy burden to carry ... He carried it
for us .. Now we do his work ..Which is not keeping 613 laws ... No way ..
we would have no time to do the work of Christ and show his love to mankind ..
We would be to busy trying to save our own hides by obeying 613 laws ...

We do not teach others they are required to obey these laws ..
It is not a requirement for Christians to have to do so or even know what
they are .. There is NO purpose under Christ in doing so ... He called his
church to a different ministry and purpose .. Than what the Jews were
chosen for .... We are No longer Jew or gentiles .. We are now Christian
Under Christ ... called for a different purpose than the Jews ...
This is Gods New covenent .. To mankind ... New wine .. NOT old ..
If you put new wine into the old casks it will turn sour and burst ..

It was a requirement of the Jews before Christ came to offer a new covenant
It is in no way required of the gentiles or any Christians for that matter and only
those who are not free in Christ to obey his teachings try to put and keep us under
these laws instead of the Authority of Christ .. who fufilled the law ..

literaryjoe
Oct 25th 2005, 03:20 AM
LJ,

This may be an uneducated question (i try), but why don't you still sacrifice animals to atone for sins if you still feel that we are under all of these restrictions?

Is it because there is no temple to do so? If that is the case, why hasn't one been built?

I'm really curious about this, LJ. I was taught the same as ACCM and your response has definitely intrigued me :).

BrandonIt goes back to my analogy of the stoplight. If you're not at a stoplight, the law regarding stoplight behavior isn't applicable even though the law hasn't been done away with.

There is no Temple, there is no priesthood, and even if we knew who the correct priests are there is no way to make them ritually pure (we're missing the ashes of the red heifer, for example). Therefore, since God said not to make sacrifices under any other conditions nor at any other place than "where He caused His name to dwell" (the Tabernacle or Temple) it would be a violation of the Law to make sacrifices today.

By the way, while it may technically be an uneducated question, it is most certainly not a bad one. First, It shows thinking and secondly, I get it all the time--though normally as a challenge instead of as in a legitimate question like you asked. Keep asking questions.

literaryjoe
Oct 25th 2005, 03:22 AM
I hold to the scripture I posted because I am a Christian ..
Not a NON-Christian Jew like fenris who agrees with your interpretation .. :hmm:
Because he is a Jew and still under the law ..

I am a gentile and a Christian and I am no longer in bondage to the
613 Mosaic laws of the old testimate .. I am now under Christ
he fulfilled ALL the laws and the prophets .. I am under his authority
and fulfill the law by obeying his commandments. I am no longer judged
by what I eat or what day I worship or where I worship .. I am to love
my fellowman and bring them to Christ through the gospel.. We in no
way bring any man to or under the 613 laws or the Mosaic or levitacal laws.
We bring them to Christ .. to worship in spirit and in truth ..
Not by obeying impossible laws that needed animal sacrifices to atone
for breaking them ...

The law was a teacher and a strick teacher to show us it was impossible to
follow .. Christ saved us from having this heavy burden to carry ... He carried it
for us .. Now we do his work ..Which is not keeping 613 laws ... No way ..
we would have no time to do the work of Christ and show his love to mankind ..
We would be to busy trying to save our own hides by obeying 613 laws ...

We do not teach others they are required to obey these laws ..
It is not a requirement for Christians to have to do so or even know what
they are .. There is NO purpose under Christ in doing so ... He called his
church to a different ministry and purpose .. Than what the Jews were
chosen for .... We are No longer Jew or gentiles .. We are now Christian
Under Christ ... called for a different purpose than the Jews ...
This is Gods New covenent .. To mankind ... New wine .. NOT old ..
If you put new wine into the old casks it will turn sour and burst ..

It was a requirement of the Jews before Christ came to offer a new covenant
It is in no way required of the gentiles or any Christians for that matter and only
those who are not free in Christ to obey his teachings try to put and keep us under
these laws instead of the Authority of Christ .. who fufilled the law ..If I were to carefully and gently but thoroughly point out why the post above can't possibly be true, would you take my response to heart and truly consider it? Or are you pretty much set that you've got it down?

Ta-An
Oct 25th 2005, 07:21 AM
LJ, because I want to be a safe driver,,,or however you have put it.... I'll stop at the STOP sign, I'll not exceed the speed limit, I'll yield at the yield sign, I'll give right of way to those who need it..... all those things.....

Yes, I understand, I can only stop if the traffic light indeed is red, and drive at the speed I want to within the speed limit....

My concern was, how do I stop at a traffic light if there is none....
How do I yield, if see no sign.... do you get at what I am at??? :hmm:
how can I follow the law if it is not applicable to me, as stated above..... I am actulally saying thew same as you, I can just not bend/apply my words/language the same as you ;)

qbee
Oct 25th 2005, 07:48 AM
If I were to carefully and gently but thoroughly point out why the post above can't possibly be true, would you take my response to heart and truly consider it? Or are you pretty much set that you've got it down?


No I am not set that I got it all down completly .. :blush: blush .. I just have a hard time trusting what you are trying to teach ..

But as far as not being under the mosiac laws or levitical laws. I feel I have it right .. I do believe we are to obey the 2
which incorporates all Ten commanments and more .. But they must be applied and obeyed with love, grace and
mercy ..If we dont act out of love they mean nothing and do not accomplish Gods purpose in Christ .. Now we know
what is right and wrong .. We find conviction of that through Gods word and the Holy spirit .. We are convicted in our
hearts when we do wrong ... If these laws are going to place me under the bondage of guilt or fear again because
it is impossible for me to obey them ... I dont even want to know what they are .. I want to follow and do the work of
Christ without being in bondage to laws that have already fufilled thier purpose .. They are no longer Necessary ..
What purpose do they fufill under Christ .. They do NOT accomplish anything .. and no longer have a pupose ..

They once did serve a purpose and were for a good reason .. but that pupose has been fufilled. When Christ came
to us .. We do not serve Christ or our fellow man by obeying them .. Only the Jews continue to try and obey them all
and they still cant do it.. so for what purpose do they serve ... The law is to judge unbelievers not those who take
refuge in Christ and become part of his chrurch ... His Church fufills and has a different purpose under God than what
the Jews had before Christ. Christ tried to tell them this ... they did not want any part of this NEW church or covenant.
So they are still bound to follow these laws. NOT Christ ..

I do not fully understand your posts and feel like you are trying to bring Christians all under these laws again ..
instead of grace and mercy from God through Christ. I have a hard time because I have never heard this taught.

Only by the Jewish faiths ... NOT Christians ..

Most Christians do NOT even know what these laws are as it is not part of the plan of salvation and
what we are taught to do under Christs authority.. Just like the gentiles Paul converted .. And scripture plainly
shows Paul and Peter no longer require any of them to placed under Jewish laws. Just refrain from eating
strangled meat and meat for sacrifices to idols I believe. He also didnt require they be curcumsised.. He certainly
didnt teach it was necessary to be under the mosiac or old laws as we are no longer judged under them.

I believe all Gods laws were all righteous and Good and had a purpose ..
But NOW that pupose has been fufiiled when Christ entered the picture ..
God now has another pupose for man through Christ and these laws are
no longer necessary to carry out this purpose ... they are obsolete for
those in Christ ...

I will listen :hug: .. but first please tell me what church or denomination or faith teaches and believes this..
so I know it is a part of the protestant Christian faith and not some other faith ... Your posts confuse me ..
and I do not trust them ... As I have never heard any Christian church teach or put anyone under these laws.
Do they post and teach all of them in church so no one misses one .. I just dont get what you are teaching ..:confused
But I am willing to listen if you can tell me who teaches this so I can trust or at least be open to what you are saying.

I am really having a hard time understanding what you are teaching .. Sorry .. not trying to be difficult
it is just so very hard for me to comrehend this .. It is not what I have been taught ..

Christinme
Oct 25th 2005, 08:48 AM
What was one of the major things God did to set the Jews apart from the rest of the nations? He gave them the 613 Mitzvos. These were for the Jews, not for the Gentiles. They were the responsibility of the Jew.

Deuteronomy 6:1-3 Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you"a land flowing with milk and honey."

There are some Christians who say that these 613 Mitzvos now apply to all Christians, whether they are Jew or Gentile. It has been my experience that in these days 99.99% of the time it is Gentile Christians and not Christians who were Jews who say this. I would like to make note that Paul said there was no Jews or Gentiles (actually he said Greeks) in Christ, Paul didn't say now everyone Jew and Gentile (Greek) are now Jews in Christ.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is that most of the people who support such a position also strongly hold to the position that the Church and Israel are separate. Now think about that if they are separate, then why would the Church take that (the 613 Mitzvos) which was given to the Jews so as to separate them for God's purposes? Just doesn't make sense.

And literaryjoe, I don't think your position is that the Church and Israel are separate, I think your position is more that the Church, that is the true Church, is a continuation of the true Israel, in which the 613 Mitzvos are still applicable, correct me if I'm wrong. Whether it is your position or not, I don't agree with this position either.

literaryjoe
Oct 25th 2005, 09:52 AM
LJ, because I want to be a safe driver,,,or however you have put it.... I'll stop at the STOP sign, I'll not exceed the speed limit, I'll yield at the yield sign, I'll give right of way to those who need it..... all those things.....

Yes, I understand, I can only stop if the traffic light indeed is red, and drive at the speed I want to within the speed limit....

My concern was, how do I stop at a traffic light if there is none....
How do I yield, if see no sign.... do you get at what I am at??? :hmm:
how can I follow the law if it is not applicable to me, as stated above..... I am actulally saying thew same as you, I can just not bend/apply my words/language the same as you ;)I don't get what your communicating yet. Help me understand what you're saying.

You can't (or at least won't) follow the laws if you believe they're not applicable to you. And that is what I'm trying to say. If we assume that all we need concern ourselves with is the 2 Biggies (love God, love your neighbor) but the rest of the specifics don't apply--we won't keep the 2 biggies successfully.

This works both ways...If I keep the big 2, then I am keeping the 613. Conversely, if I keep any of the 613, in that moment I am also keeping the big 2. Since this is true, whether you work from the large collection to the small summary or from the summary to the compilation of specifics--it is impossible to separate the 613 specifics from the 2 summary statements.

If there is no stop sign, you need not stop. Actually to stop when there is no sign would be a violation, right?

When does the driving code condemn you? Only when you've violated it right? Let's say you violate it many times in your life, whether intentionally or unintentionally doesn't matter, the driving code still testifies that you broke its commandments, which means that you did not drive safely.

Now let's say that the judge declares you innocent--he knows you broke the driving code, but he declares you innocent for life no matter what. Now you still have to come into the court and your case has to be heard, but at the end of the day, you plea "guilty", and the judge declares, "I know, but I declare you "not guilty", and I will pay your fine."

Just because he declared and declares you not guilty does not mean that you are free to stop obeying the driving code. Determing how to understand and apply the code is a separate matter all together. The main issue is that even after having been given a state of "no comdemnation", you are still "under" the driving code, but not "under" it's accusation or penalties.

I hope that made sense, if it doesn't than I'm really misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

If you don't want to re-explain, that's fine, I understand, but if you care to try again, I am certainly interested in understanding you accurately.

literaryjoe
Oct 25th 2005, 10:22 AM
No I am not set that I got it all down completly .. :blush: blush .. I just have a hard time trusting what you are trying to teach ..I can certainly understand that--it is radically different than what the great majority of us have been taught since childhood--including myself.


But as far as not being under the mosiac laws or levitical laws. I feel I have it right .. I do believe we are to obey the 2 which incorporates all Ten commanments and more .. But they must be applied and obeyed with love, grace and mercy ..If we dont act out of love they mean nothing and do not accomplish Gods purpose in Christ .. Now we know what is right and wrong .. We find conviction of that through Gods word and the Holy spirit .. We are convicted in our hearts when we do wrong ... If these laws are going to place me under the bondage of guilt or fear again because it is impossible for me to obey them ... I dont even want to know what they are. [\quote]

Up to this point I am totally in agreement with you.

[quote]I want to follow and do the work of Christ without being in bondage to laws that have already fufilled thier purpose .. They are no longer Necessary ..What purpose do they fufill under Christ .. They do NOT accomplish anything .. and no longer have a purpose ..
Now you start making me really nervous. We are to be slaves to righteousness--Paul tells us this clearly. The laws do still have a purpose--but because we have been justified by grace through faith in the work of Messiah, the purpose which applies to us is different than the purpose which applies to the ungodly. They are still very necessary--they explain how to love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. God didn't just leave us hanging out here in the wind, licking our finger and trying to figure out which way the Spirit is prompting us today, or even if it is the Spirit or just some human inclination. No, He is a kind father--he said, these are my instructions, by keeping them you will experience/find abundant life (here and now--He all ready gave us eternal life)

They once did serve a purpose and were for a good reason .. but that pupose has been fufilled. When Christ came to us .. We do not serve Christ or our fellow man by obeying them .. Only the Jews continue to try and obey them all and they still cant do it.. so for what purpose do they serve ... The law is to judge unbelievers not those who take
refuge in Christ and become part of his chrurch ... His Church fufills and has a different purpose under God than what
the Jews had before Christ. Christ tried to tell them this ... they did not want any part of this NEW church or covenant.
So they are still bound to follow these laws. NOT Christ ..I don't think Scripture indicates that there is a different purpose for the Jews than there is for the Church. In fact, God uses the names interchangeably. Congregation, assembly, church, my people--they are all used synonymously.

I don't understand all the inner workings of this. It seems like we believers will also be judged, but apparently Jesus will stand up and say something like, "Yes, it is true he/she did break Your commandments, but I paid the penalty and they have been set free." So the law is the eternal standard which will be used to judge all of us, believer and unbeliever, but we, having been buried and risen with Christ are no longer under condemnation. We've been declared "not guilty".

I do not fully understand your posts and feel like you are trying to bring Christians all under these laws again ..
instead of grace and mercy from God through Christ. I have a hard time because I have never heard this taught.

Only by the Jewish faiths ... NOT Christians ..

Most Christians do NOT even know what these laws are as it is not part of the plan of salvation and
what we are taught to do under Christs authority.. Just like the gentiles Paul converted .. And scripture plainly
shows Paul and Peter no longer require any of them to placed under Jewish laws. Just refrain from eating
strangled meat and meat for sacrifices to idols I believe. He also didnt require they be curcumsised.. He certainly
didnt teach it was necessary to be under the mosiac or old laws as we are no longer judged under them.That's the same reaction I had the first time I ran into people talking like I now talk. Feel like that as long as you like, and don't feel bad about it. I eventually began digging into things deeper, because as wacky as I thought those people were, they said a couple things that I just couldn't deny--so I had to get to the bottom of this.

I am passionate about restoring to Christians the full measure of grace and mercy that God has made available to them. I'm angry that such a large portion of our God-given heritage has been effectively stolen from us. I'm grief-stricken at the effects the lack of a moral compass and guidebook for life have had on Christian people. So, yes, I am trying to help Christians understand that God gave His people heart-felt, gracious instructions that He knew would be in our best interest, because He is our loving Father, and that what He freed us from was the condemnation of not being able to abide by those instructions perfectly, and even from the eternal consequences of rebelling against those instructions purposefully (before we believed).


I believe all Gods laws were all righteous and Good and had a purpose ..
But NOW that pupose has been fufiiled when Christ entered the picture ..
God now has another pupose for man through Christ and these laws are
no longer necessary to carry out this purpose ... they are obsolete for
those in Christ ...

I will listen :hug: .. but first please tell me what church or denomination or faith teaches and believes this..
so I know it is a part of the protestant Christian faith and not some other faith ... Your posts confuse me ..
and I do not trust them ... As I have never heard any Christian church teach or put anyone under these laws.
Do they post and teach all of them in church so no one misses one .. I just dont get what you are teaching ..:confused
But I am willing to listen if you can tell me who teaches this so I can trust or at least be open to what you are saying.

I am really having a hard time understanding what you are teaching .. Sorry .. not trying to be difficult
it is just so very hard for me to comrehend this .. It is not what I have been taught ..It is not the teaching or understanding of any one Protestant denomination. It is not posted for all to see, because every one of us has a copy or more than one at home--our Bibles.

I know Lutheran, Evangelical Free, Baptist, non-denominational, Anglican, Episcopalian, Church of God, Pentecostals, Methodists, Brethren and Bible Church Christians who believe these things the way I do. In fact, I probably know more, but it rarely occurs to me to find out what denomination they came from.

As for who teaches these things, I can give you specific churches, or specific bible teachers or specific books. I'm not sure what you're looking for. Am I part of a majority among Evangelical, Protestant believers? No, however, it is one of the fastest growing mini-movements in Evangelical Christianity (as George Barna would call it).

I could list historical Protestant believers who believe the way I do, from the Reformation period, from the days of Colonial America, but more appropriate may be recent trends.

I'm not sure what to say, I don't want to dump a truck load on you. I'm going to let this go for now and you ask me specific questions if and when you feel like it. You can PM me or ask on the forum, it doesn't matter to me.

I apologize for making you uncomfortable. I can become strident in the passionate defense of what I consider the truth. It is always helpful to be reminded that I thought and felt the same way as you only a few short years ago, and that God never gave me a deadline for when "you must have these things sorted out by midnight on October _____."

literaryjoe
Oct 25th 2005, 10:34 AM
What was one of the major things God did to set the Jews apart from the rest of the nations? He gave them the 613 Mitzvos. These were for the Jews, not for the Gentiles. They were the responsibility of the Jew.

Deuteronomy 6:1-3 Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you"a land flowing with milk and honey."

There are some Christians who say that these 613 Mitzvos now apply to all Christians, whether they are Jew or Gentile. It has been my experience that in these days 99.99% of the time it is Gentile Christians and not Christians who were Jews who say this. I would like to make note that Paul said there was no Jews or Gentiles (actually he said Greeks) in Christ, Paul didn't say now everyone Jew and Gentile (Greek) are now Jews in Christ.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is that most of the people who support such a position also strongly hold to the position that the Church and Israel are separate. Now think about that if they are separate, then why would the Church take that (the 613 Mitzvos) which was given to the Jews so as to separate them for God's purposes? Just doesn't make sense.

And literaryjoe, I don't think your position is that the Church and Israel are separate, I think your position is more that the Church, that is the true Church, is a continuation of the true Israel, in which the 613 Mitzvos are still applicable, correct me if I'm wrong. Whether it is your position or not, I don't agree with this position either.God gave His laws to the congregation of Israel, which was a mixed multitude of Hebrews and Gentiles. He made it abundantly clear, by repeating it over and over again, that there was one law for the Jew and for the Gentile. His laws applied to both.

There are proportionately as many Jews who believe God still wants believers to keep the Torah as there are Gentiles.

Actually, most who hold this position, like me, believe that Israel and the Church are one and the same thing. There are some who believe Israel and the Church are separate, but still somehow appropriate the Torah for the Church, but they are by far the exception rather than the rule.

The fact that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ is a very good point. We are one people, the people of God. Paul specifically calls us the Israel of God, pointing out that not all who are descended from Jacob are "Israel" in that sense, but it is those who believe who are the sons of Abraham.

God adopted the Jews as His chosen, covenant people, and then He adopted us into that family. We have all received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Christinme
Oct 25th 2005, 11:07 AM
God gave His laws to the congregation of Israel, which was a mixed multitude of Hebrews and Gentiles.Let's start with this, so God brought a mixed multitude of Hebrews and Gentiles out of Egypt into the wilderness and gave this mixed multitude the 613 Mitzvox?

and this:


God adopted the Jews as His chosen, covenant people, and then He adopted us into that family. We have all received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, Abba, Father.So when did God adopt the Jews as His chosen, covenant people? And when did He adopt us into that family?

PastorMark
Oct 25th 2005, 12:34 PM
Strongly worded language does not necessarily equate to belittling language and I think ACCM knows I would not belittle her. On the other hand, I do want to "shock" her into re-thinking what she had expressed.This is a public message board. What you are certain is clear to ACCM may or may not be. Calling her post "cock-eyed, and illogical," that it "awaken[s] horror" in you, and is "absolute insanity" may be construed by others here as an attack. Could be to her too. But that's not really the point. Please tone it down and pray the Holy Spirit to get to her (if need be) instead of the shock value.

Ta-An
Oct 25th 2005, 01:37 PM
and I think ACCM knows I would not belittle her. :hug:
On the other hand, I do want to "shock" her into re-thinking what she had expressed. you shocked me allright....:eek: right into a different blood group :eek:



This works both ways...If I keep the big 2, then I am keeping the 613. Conversely, if I keep any of the 613, in that moment I am also keeping the big 2. Since this is true, whether you work from the large collection to the small summary or from the summary to the compilation of specifics--it is impossible to separate the 613 specifics from the 2 summary statements.okay ...I understand....
:thumbsup: :pp

Clouds & Spikes
Oct 25th 2005, 04:27 PM
It goes back to my analogy of the stoplight. If you're not at a stoplight, the law regarding stoplight behavior isn't applicable even though the law hasn't been done away with.

There is no Temple, there is no priesthood, and even if we knew who the correct priests are there is no way to make them ritually pure (we're missing the ashes of the red heifer, for example). Therefore, since God said not to make sacrifices under any other conditions nor at any other place than "where He caused His name to dwell" (the Tabernacle or Temple) it would be a violation of the Law to make sacrifices today.

By the way, while it may technically be an uneducated question, it is most certainly not a bad one. First, It shows thinking and secondly, I get it all the time--though normally as a challenge instead of as in a legitimate question like you asked. Keep asking questions.

Thanks. I had my suspicions that this was the case, but I am not as familiar with the OT as I should be.

Brandon

literaryjoe
Oct 25th 2005, 10:23 PM
Let's start with this, so God brought a mixed multitude of Hebrews and Gentiles out of Egypt into the wilderness and gave this mixed multitude the 613 Mitzvot?That is correct.
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very much livestock, both flocks and herds. Exodus 12:37-38 (ESV)
All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." Exodus 12:47-49 (ESV)
For more on this search for the use of "stranger", "foreigner", "alien" or "sojourner" in Exodus through Joshua.

Consider also some specific examples; here's a couple: Moses was married to a Midianite and an Ethiopian woman. Caleb was the son of a Kenizzite (which I believe is a tribe of Edom) Num 32:12, and yet is portrayed as representing the tribe of Judah (Num 13:6). See also Joshua 14:14.

Christinme
Oct 25th 2005, 10:45 PM
That is correct.
For more on this search for the use of "stranger", "foreigner", "alien" or "sojourner" in Exodus through Joshua.

Consider also some specific examples; here's a couple: Moses was married to a Midianite and an Ethiopian woman. Caleb was the son of a Kenizzite (which I believe is a tribe of Edom) Num 32:12, and yet is portrayed as representing the tribe of Judah (Num 13:6). See also Joshua 14:14.I was aware of Moses' wife, but I had not really ever noticed Exodus 12:38 and I find that very interesting.

So how about the other part of my post ...

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 25th 2005, 11:40 PM
ACCM,
Literaryjoe
i'm really glad this thread came about, it's definetly refreshing and thought provoking, and i understand it right just as i thought ;)

This is unfortunately a thread i feel many will misunderstand.

I had suspected reading the old laws that they were created to make sure people lived in love and peace next to one another. So by observing the two Jesus said were the greatest commandments one would automatically do what's in the old law aside from those that are now not possible to followl cause of the regulations. On the other hand if one lived with all their heart and mind by the old law, he would also be fulfilling the two greatest commandments Jesus mentioned.

literaryjoe
Oct 26th 2005, 12:02 AM
I was aware of Moses' wife, but I had not really ever noticed Exodus 12:38 and I find that very interesting.

So how about the other part of my post ...:grin: one thing at a time! I'm about to sit down to dinner with my family...

Ta-An
Oct 26th 2005, 08:57 AM
Look what I found!!!
The modern translation of the Torah that you will find here on Jewish.com was published by JPS in 1985*. Rabbis and Jewish leaders consider the JPS translation to be one of the best, if not the best translation available today. http://jewish.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=3

Ex 12:49There shall be one law for the citizen and for the stranger who dwells among you.

Banzy
Nov 23rd 2005, 11:57 PM
I would like to bring this thread back up.

qbee, I think you are on the right path.

As Christians, we do not follow the law, nor do we have to try to. Following the law does not make God happy, nor does it fulfill us, or make us righteous.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not become entangled again with a yoke of bondage." Gal. 5:1 Trying to keep the law, as many as we can or whatever, is a yoke of bondage.

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse..." Gal. 3:10 I am not under the curse, but in Christ.

The only thing we live by as Christians is: "The just shall live by faith." Period. This is what separates us from any other religion or idea in the world. I cannot do those things to make me holy, but Someone did. Therefore, I have faith in Him and it is accounted to me as righteousness.

"...having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments..." Eph. 2:15 Why resurrect something He has abolished?

"Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations..." Col. 2:20 Those who are Christians have died with Him, and now you don't have to live by the regulations of the law, nor try to.

He did it, He finished it, that is all you have to believe. "The just shall live by faith." It doesn't say the "just shall live by trying to fulfill the law."

Ta-An
Nov 24th 2005, 05:35 PM
He did it, He finished it, that is all you have to believe. "The just shall live by faith." It doesn't say the "just shall live by trying to fulfill the law." How do you explain living by faith to someone?? :hmm:

Banzy
Nov 24th 2005, 10:03 PM
Hi ACCM. What part of SA do you live in? I believe somewhere in the intro's I mentioned to someone that I was in Durban for six weeks. You stated something about the differences between Cape Town and Durban, what did you mean?

Anyway, to the subject matter of this thread.

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." Gal 2:20

Living by faith is simple. He came and did what I could not do, and therefore I have faith in Him. I don't have to follow any laws or rules, I just follow Him. I hear from Him and walk out what He has called me to do. That is faith.

Jesusinmyheart
Nov 24th 2005, 10:28 PM
I don't have to follow any laws or rules, I just follow Him. I hear from Him and walk out what He has called me to do. That is faith.
How do you follow Jesus, what exactly do you do ?
Do you follow any commandments Jesus gave ? How do you show your Love to Jesus ?

Ta-An
Nov 25th 2005, 07:44 AM
Hi ACCM. What part of SA do you live in? I believe somewhere in the intro's I mentioned to someone that I was in Durban for six weeks. You stated something about the differences between Cape Town and Durban, what did you mean? I live in Gauteng province Johannesburg area.
Durban is on the east coast, Indian ocean side thus warm water where CapeTown is on the West coast side where the cold Atlantic ocean is. Durban therefor has a humid atmosphere and very green, where CT is dry with large white sandy beaches....


Anyway, to the subject matter of this thread...........
Living by faith is simple. He came and did what I could not do, and therefore I have faith in Him. I don't have to follow any laws or rules, I just follow Him. I hear from Him and walk out what He has called me to do. That is faith. I know what faith is,,,, how do you live by faith, what is your lifestyle living by faith?? :hmm:

BHS
Nov 25th 2005, 09:52 PM
I am passionate about restoring to Christians the full measure of grace and mercy that God has made available to them. I'm angry that such a large portion of our God-given heritage has been effectively stolen from us. I'm grief-stricken at the effects the lack of a moral compass and guidebook for life have had on Christian people. So, yes, I am trying to help Christians understand that God gave His people heart-felt, gracious instructions that He knew would be in our best interest, because He is our loving Father, and that what He freed us from was the condemnation of not being able to abide by those instructions perfectly, and even from the eternal consequences of rebelling against those instructions purposefully (before we believed).

To which I add a hearty AMEN! I pray that we, as a people of God, see that He, too, is grief-stricken.

Blessings,

BHS

Banzy
Nov 25th 2005, 10:51 PM
How do you follow Jesus, what exactly do you do ?
Do you follow any commandments Jesus gave ? How do you show your Love to Jesus ?

Jesusinmyheart, that monkey is pretty cool, hehe. Of course Jesus said that "if you love me you will keep my commandments." And of course love keeps those commandments. I show my love to Him by believing in Him and resting in Him. The more I think about it, the less I really know how to explain it.

ACCM: I flew out of Jo-Burg coming back here to the states so I didn't get to see any of it either. When I go back I definitely want to visit Jo-burg and Cape Town. You asked what my lifestyle was living by faith. Not sure how to explain it, but I don't subject myself to any regulations. I really love Colossians 2. Paul does a very good job in explaining it, he can do a much better job than I can. Study that chapter, that's how I live. I hope this helps.

Christinme
Nov 26th 2005, 09:12 AM
I know what faith is,,,, how do you live by faith, what is your lifestyle living by faith?? :hmm:I would like to address the question of how I live by faith. When I was young I spent a lot of time alone, however I did not "feel" alone. There was a presence that I "felt" and that presence and I communed. I pretty much had no contact with religion growing up, my family didn't really talk about God, but I did have an understanding that God existed. It was my understanding that this presence that I communed with was God. When I was 23 I read the gospels of the NT for the first time. That evening I read through them all (the gospels), a few times and it was like a revelation. What was written is what was "communicated" to me when I was younger by the presence that I had understood to have been God. It was then that I realized that it was the Holy Spirit that had been guiding me and teaching me what Jesus was teaching. It was then that I realized who Jesus Christ is. And He is alive.

So for me to live by faith is for me to continue to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To live by faith is to trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For me to live by faith is to trust in what God has communicated through the Holy Spirit and scripture. Scripture confirms for me that which the Holy Spirit communicates. I don't live for "this world", I live for the world to come. I have very little concern for material things. I make decisions based on spiritual matters not material matters. For example, I worked for a company once where I was managing a government funded project. This project was a cost plus project, meaning we were to be paid as profit a certain percentage of the overall cost of the project. The more it cost, the more profit the company would make. It became quite obvious that the company was attempting to drive the cost up and wanted me to participate in this, which I could not do. When I informed them that I could not do this I was quickly fired. It is the only time I have been fired. I could have sued them, I did not. I could have collected unemployment, I did not. I trusted God to lead me to where I was to go next. So for me to live by faith is for me to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and trust. And yes I use scripture to confirm the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Now it is my understanding through the Holy Spirit and scripture that some of the "613 laws" are not relevant now. It is my conviction through the Holy Spirit and scripture, that God doesn't care whether my husband has a beard or not. So for me living by faith is not centered around trying to follow the "613 laws", but following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, using scripture to confirm the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

literaryjoe
Nov 27th 2005, 05:02 AM
Banzy,

Has it ever occurred to you that even loving God is one of His commandments? Certainly you constrain yourself by that regulation, do you not?

literaryjoe
Nov 27th 2005, 05:08 AM
Christinme,

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to read Psalm 119 every day for a month and pray the verses as you go along. Having accomplished your mission report back to those interested what the Holy Spirit revealed to you.

This message will not self-destruct. <cue Mission Impossible theme in background>

Christinme
Nov 27th 2005, 08:31 AM
Christinme,

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to read Psalm 119 every day for a month and pray the verses as you go along. Having accomplished your mission report back to those interested what the Holy Spirit revealed to you.

This message will not self-destruct. <cue Mission Impossible theme in background>literaryjoe,

I really love the Psalms, actually after having read the Gospels I spent the next few years mostly in the Old Testament. So I would be more than happy to accept this mission. I would prefer to report daily. If this is all right and ACCM agrees maybe a thread can be set up in which I can post my daily reports, I would request that the thread consist of my daily reports alone and not be open for debate and/or comment. If there is a problem with that I can send them by PM to you alone and/or anyone else interested. What is the Bible translation that you want me to use? Oh, by the way have you ever noticed my signature below?

Ta-An
Nov 27th 2005, 02:49 PM
literaryjoe,

If this is all right and ACCM agrees maybe a thread can be set up in which I can post my daily reports, I would request that the thread consist of my daily reports alone and not be open for debate and/or comment. Okay, lets see.... :hmm:
1)I can lock that thread, and when you see me online ask to unlock it so you can make a post, and when done I can relock it...
2) We aks pple not to post in there.............. and if they do we delete it...
3) ??? Go for it , Open your thread on Ps119 :idea:

literaryjoe
Nov 28th 2005, 12:53 AM
literaryjoe,

I really love the Psalms, actually after having read the Gospels I spent the next few years mostly in the Old Testament. So I would be more than happy to accept this mission. I would prefer to report daily. If this is all right and ACCM agrees maybe a thread can be set up in which I can post my daily reports, I would request that the thread consist of my daily reports alone and not be open for debate and/or comment. If there is a problem with that I can send them by PM to you alone and/or anyone else interested. What is the Bible translation that you want me to use? Oh, by the way have you ever noticed my signature below?Sounds good to me. I look forward to reading your comments.

I have noticed your signature; depending on my mood, I find it either slightly ironic or it gives me hope. It was, in fact, your signature which triggered my Mission Impossible-influenced post.

As to version, your preference suits me. Although, now that I think about it two things occur to me: 1) if you're accustomed to reading it in one version, you might try a different one, or 2) if you're really going to do this for a month, then you might consider a different version every day or every week--might spice things up a bit more and perhaps shed a different perspective or emphasis on the same verses--anything to prevent blowing by what will become VERY familiar words.

*Edit* P.S. Let me know what the thread is, so I can follow along--I'm strapped for time lately, so I haven't been browsing the forums much.

BHS
Nov 28th 2005, 01:07 AM
I think in all these discussions we miss the heart of God, Who simply wants faith coupled with obedience. Those who think the Torah is still relevant are accused of judging others. No, we would only like others to know the blessings of following His commandments – whether it is the Sabbath, keeping Biblical kosher, etc.

We do not fearfully study the so-called 613 commandments of Torah to keep them, but follow a loving God Who gave us instructions that would benefit our lives. We realize that our obedience does not put us in right standing– it is by grace we are saved. But since God graciously gave us a manual for living, why not follow it?

Blessings,

BHS

Christinme
Nov 28th 2005, 11:45 AM
Those who think the Torah is still relevant are accused of judging others. No, we would only like others to know the blessings of following His commandments – whether it is the Sabbath, keeping Biblical kosher, etc.You have judged that others have accused you of judging others, which I think you rightly judge there, because that is in fact what I am doing. I have said this before, if you or lj were to say how blessed you are for keeping the Sabbath according to the instruction given at Sinai or keeping kosher according to the instruction given by God through Moses, you wouldn't hear a word from me. But there is an implication in the way you express yourself and the way lj does and some others. To say "we would only like others to know the blessings of following His commandments" directly implies that they don't know the blessings BECAUSE they aren't following His commandments. So you have made judgments, I've made judgments, the question comes down to who is rightly judging and who is not, or have we all judged wrongly.

I have already expressed that it is my understanding that the instruction given at Sinai is a shadow. So the written Sabbath instruction is but a shadow of His commandment, the eating instructions are but a shadow of His commandment. It is my understanding that the Sabbath day is a shadow of His commandment that we are to come to Christ and rest in Him EVERYDAY. We are to EVERYDAY rest from doing our works and do the works of God. So to teach to do this one day a week is preparation for teaching to do this EVERYDAY. Concerning the dietary instructions, I see these also as a shadow. There is a lot there. For now I'll just leave it at that learning to control what goes into the mouth is preparation for learning to control what comes out of the mouth.

Anyways I am going to refrain from further comment in threads concerning the law for the next month and concentrate on the mission lj has suggested.

BHS
Nov 28th 2005, 01:02 PM
Christinme,

I posted this duplicate post from another thread because the "law" seems to be to some as only a list of rules. Judging others was mentioned in the other thread. In your reply, you also indicate that is also your thought --


But there is an implication in the way you express yourself and the way lj does and some others. To say "we would only like others to know the blessings of following His commandments" directly implies that they don't know the blessings BECAUSE they aren't following His commandments. So you have made judgments, I've made judgments, the question comes down to who is rightly judging and who is not, or have we all judged wrongly.

I mention the blessing, because the Scripture says those who obey the Lord will be blessed. It is the Spirit that leads us into truth and obedience.

Blessings,

BHS

Banzy
Nov 29th 2005, 11:26 PM
I think in all these discussions we miss the heart of God, Who simply wants faith coupled with obedience. Those who think the Torah is still relevant are accused of judging others. No, we would only like others to know the blessings of following His commandments – whether it is the Sabbath, keeping Biblical kosher, etc.

We do not fearfully study the so-called 613 commandments of Torah to keep them, but follow a loving God Who gave us instructions that would benefit our lives. We realize that our obedience does not put us in right standing– it is by grace we are saved. But since God graciously gave us a manual for living, why not follow it?

Blessings,

BHS

The "heart of God" is to follow His Son. What exactly are the "blessings of following His commandments", I'd really like to know. And also, our "manual for living" is Jesus Christ, The Word of God. He was the Pattern Son.

BHS
Nov 30th 2005, 03:29 AM
The "heart of God" is to follow His Son. What exactly are the "blessings of following His commandments", I'd really like to know. And also, our "manual for living" is Jesus Christ, The Word of God. He was the Pattern Son.

Exactly! Y'shua was the Living Word {Torah}. Banzy, His blessings are mentioned throughout Scripture -- Psalm 103 is just one instance.

Blessings to you,

BHS

Christinme
Dec 2nd 2005, 04:53 AM
Let me know what the thread is, so I can follow along--I'm strapped for time lately, so I haven't been browsing the forums much.This is the thread:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=44056

literaryjoe
Dec 14th 2008, 07:35 AM
Gracious!!! I was just re-reading this thread and realized (after 3 years) that I completely misunderstood ACCM's words from the get go. She was saying the same thing I was trying to say, and I was entirely out of line in the language I used to address a woman whom I respect and admire (from what little is possible to know of someone from a forum).

Please accept my deepest apologies Ta-An:pray: I was disrespectful and rude, and to make matters worse, was no where close to justified.

quiet dove
Dec 14th 2008, 05:00 PM
Hi literaryjoe, I am going to leave for post for ACCM, but I am going to close the thread since it is a thread from 2005.
:)

Ta-An
Dec 15th 2008, 12:54 PM
Gracious!!! I was just re-reading this thread and realized (after 3 years) that I completely misunderstood ACCM's words from the get go. She was saying the same thing I was trying to say, and I was entirely out of line in the language I used to address a woman whom I respect and admire (from what little is possible to know of someone from a forum).

Please accept my deepest apologies, TA-An :pray: I was disrespectful and rude, and to make matters worse, was no where close to justified.:kiss: .