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JesusPhreak27
Mar 25th 2006, 11:46 PM
A little backround to this before I begin. I have been reading the debate going on about OSAS and NOSAS for a few weeks now and earlier this week I sat down with my pastor and talked to him about it because I was concerned that the NOSAS may be right. He told me that they are not but he needed to find the book that would be easist to use to explain it to me with. Today he sat down with me and explained everything to me. So here is the answer that he came up with to explain that once you are saved you are always saved and that you can not "lose" your salvation.

The following is from the book " Systematic Theology: The Assurance of Salvation" I forgot to write down the name of the author so I appologize in advance.

"Salvation is an Irrevocable Gift

Paul emphatically states that "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable" -- (Romans 11:29)



29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.


and he also says that salvation is "the gift of God" -- (Romans 6:23 / Ephesians 2:9).



23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:23;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28077a)] Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

9not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:9)


Hence, God can never overturn salvation: He is bound by His own unconditional covenant to be faithful even if we are faithless. (2 Timothy 2:13)



13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. (2 Timothy 2:13)


Salvation is an Unconditional Promise

God's unconditional promises are unbreakable, and salvation is an unconditional promise (Romans 6:23; 11:29; Ephesians 2:9) Hebrews declares:

17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. -- (Hebrews 6:17-18)



Salvation cannot be lost by our Good Works

The fact that salvation is RECIEVED by faith does NOT mean it can be LOST by lack of faith. Recieving the gift of salvation is not dependent on a believer's CONTINUAL faith; the INITIAL act of faith is the means through which justification is applied.



11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. -- (Romans 13:11)


Thus the gift of salvation



23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:23;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28077a)] Christ Jesus our Lord -- (Romans 6:23)


is a present possession



24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. -- (John 5:24)


and God's gifts cannot be RETRACTED "



29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. -- (Romans 11:29)





So as you can see.....what Im getting at is this......SALVATION is a gift from God that we recieved the minute we took Jesus into our lives. God's gifts are NONRETRACTABLE............ THIS MEANS THAT SALVATION IS NONRETRACTABLE.

JP27

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 12:25 AM
Systematic Theology is not new to many folks nor is that teaching. If I show you one instance where God retracts a gift Scripturally... what would that do with this theory?

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 12:29 AM
Systematic Theology is not new to many folks nor is that teaching. If I show you one instance where God retracts a gift Scripturally... what would that do with this theory?Just curious...which gift?

JesusPhreak27
Mar 26th 2006, 12:41 AM
Just curious...which gift?

My thoughts exactly

JesusPhreak27
Mar 26th 2006, 12:42 AM
Systematic Theology is not new to many folks nor is that teaching. If I show you one instance where God retracts a gift Scripturally... what would that do with this theory?

Im going to go out on a limb and say your going to pull something from the Old Testament. But I am curious to see what gift you are talking about

EDIT: I never claimed it to be a new teaching either Sir. Just simply doing what everyone wants......stating my position on something and backing it up Scripturally.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 12:45 AM
Well the proof passage was Romans 11:29. What gift was Paul talking about in that passage?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 12:48 AM
Im going to go out on a limb and say your going to pull something from the Old Testament. But I am curious to see what gift you are talking about

EDIT: I never claimed it to be a new teaching either Sir. Just simply doing what everyone wants......stating my position on something and backing it up Scripturally. I did not say you were bringing a new teaching. Just stated the fact that the book has been around a bit now and the teaching in the book on this matter was nothing new. I should have clarified by saying... In those threads you spoke of... most, if not all, of these points were brought out. Not fussing... I am glad you are telling us what you believe on the matter. Just telling you about the book and teaching itself.

And you don't have to call me Sir... shoot... I am old enough already so don't remind me of that fact! ;)

JesusPhreak27
Mar 26th 2006, 12:49 AM
Let me get my kids fed and I will come back and discuss this with you..... I just read a little of it and am trying to see where you are going with this my friend (even though we disagree on this issue I have no qualms at all with you !)

God Bless

Larry

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 12:51 AM
Let me get my kids fed and I will come back and discuss this with you..... I just read a little of it and am trying to see where you are going with this my friend (even though we disagree on this issue I have no qualms at all with you !)

God Bless

Larry
Look forward to the discussion... :)

Lars777
Mar 26th 2006, 01:29 AM
Romans 11:29

For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.



In context, this is speaking about the future restoration of the Jewish nation. Paul is saying that even though the Jews had rejected God, the Lord was still going to bring His promises to the Jews to pass. This is an act of total grace on the Lord's part .

This scripture has a broader application, too. Any calling, or gift to accomplish that calling, that the Lord gives an individual is without repentance. That means, that regardless of what an individual does, God doesn't withdraw His gifts and callings. This is why some ministers who fall into sin can still see the supernatural gifts of God flow in their ministries.

That is not to say that living a life separated unto God is not important. It is very important. A person who is living in sin is going to have their faith made shipwreck through their conscience (1 Tim. 1:19). They will begin to lose effectiveness. However, as much as they can operate in faith, the gifts and callings of God that they received are still there and they will function.

Anything that you ever received from God is still there, it just needs to be activated by faith.

JesusPhreak27
Mar 26th 2006, 01:39 AM
Romans 11:29

For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.



In context, this is speaking about the future restoration of the Jewish nation. Paul is saying that even though the Jews had rejected God, the Lord was still going to bring His promises to the Jews to pass. This is an act of total grace on the Lord's part .

This scripture has a broader application, too. Any calling, or gift to accomplish that calling, that the Lord gives an individual is without repentance. That means, that regardless of what an individual does, God doesn't withdraw His gifts and callings. This is why some ministers who fall into sin can still see the supernatural gifts of God flow in their ministries.

That is not to say that living a life separated unto God is not important. It is very important. A person who is living in sin is going to have their faith made shipwreck through their conscience (1 Tim. 1:19). They will begin to lose effectiveness. However, as much as they can operate in faith, the gifts and callings of God that they received are still there and they will function.

Anything that you ever received from God is still there, it just needs to be activated by faith.

Thats my point. Once you accept Christ as your Savior you can not lose your salvation due to the covenant made by God.

JesusPhreak27
Mar 26th 2006, 01:47 AM
I just read from Romans 11:25 - 32 and I dont see what you are talking about PP
?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 02:24 AM
I just read from Romans 11:25 - 32 and I dont see what you are talking about PP
?Read Lars post above yours here and it touches on the context pretty well. The context is that throughout that chapter... the two previous chapters as well truth be known. Israel was still beloved by God and will always be beloved by God. With that God will not repent. But there is no guarantee that every human being that is Jewish is attached back into the tree. Those cut off branches are enemies for the sake of the gospel but they are still beloved by God.

Nonetheless... many are cut off because of their unbelief and disobedience.

So while the gifts and the calling are without repentance... not all will be chosen. Remember the parables of Jesus when He speaks of the wedding banquet for the kings son. How the invited guest refused to come because they all had their excuses. They were all called... but later, come banquet time... they were not chosen.

There are many such scenario's throughout the Scripture showing the same thing.

moonglow
Mar 26th 2006, 04:12 AM
So from what it sounds like you are saying is once we get salvation we also lose our freewill...and no longer have a choice in the matter of salvation?

See that is why this whole 'losing' your salvation is SO confusing and misleading to everyone! It makes it sound like losing your car keys...and I hate that! Or it makes it sound like God 'took' it from you...which isn't what we are saying at all! Its by our OWN actions we give it up...period.

Anyway I will do my little thing here, but honestly I am pretty burnt out on talking about this again. (sorry)

2 Peter 2

20 And when people escape from the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up with sin and become its slave again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the right way to live than to know it and then reject the holy commandments that were given to them.

Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- 6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.

Hebrews 10

26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people.

30 For we know the one who said,


"I will take vengeance.
I will repay those who deserve it."

He also said,


"The Lord will judge his own people."

31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Adam Clark Bible Commentary

Verse 26. For if we sin wilfully

If we deliberately, for fear of persecution or from any other motive, renounce the profession of the Gospel and the Author of that Gospel, after having received the knowledge of the truth so as to be convinced that Jesus is the promised Messiah, and that he had sprinkled our hearts from an evil conscience; for such there remaineth no sacrifice for sins; for as the Jewish sacrifices are abolished, as appears by the declaration of God himself in the fortieth Psalm, and Jesus being now the only sacrifice which God will accept, those who reject him have none other; therefore their case must be utterly without remedy.

This is the meaning of the apostle, and the case is that of a deliberate apostate-one who has utterly rejected Jesus Christ and his atonement, and renounced the whole Gospel system. It has nothing to do with backsliders in our common use of that term. A man may be overtaken in a fault, or he may deliberately go into sin, and yet neither renounce the Gospel, nor deny the Lord that bought him. His case is dreary and dangerous, but it is not hopeless; no case is hopeless but that of the deliberate apostate, who rejects the whole Gospel system, after having been saved by grace, or convinced of the truth of the Gospel. To him there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin; for there was but the ONE, Jesus, and this he has utterly rejected.

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/misconceptions.htm
10 Common Misconceptions
About A Conditional Security

Good luck on your studies...and God bless

JesusPhreak27
Mar 26th 2006, 05:30 AM
So from what it sounds like you are saying is once we get salvation we also lose our freewill...and no longer have a choice in the matter of salvation?

See that is why this whole 'losing' your salvation is SO confusing and misleading to everyone! It makes it sound like losing your car keys...and I hate that! Or it makes it sound like God 'took' it from you...which isn't what we are saying at all! Its by our OWN actions we give it up...period.



But the thing is you cant "LOSE" your salvation........as soon as you accept Him into your heart you have salvation until the day you die. Like I said earlier salvation is a gift from God and God cant take a gift back. So how can you "LOSE" your salvation when its a gift from God?

Thats the problem Im having with all this........ You guys are saying that if I turn my back on God (like I did up until 6 months ago) that He will NEVER take me back....... that is WRONG......... He is a LOVING ACCEPTING God that wants ALL His children to come back to Him.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 05:53 AM
But the thing is you cant "LOSE" your salvation........as soon as you accept Him into your heart you have salvation until the day you die. Like I said earlier salvation is a gift from God and God cant take a gift back. So how can you "LOSE" your salvation when its a gift from God?

Thats the problem Im having with all this........ You guys are saying that if I turn my back on God (like I did up until 6 months ago) that He will NEVER take me back....... that is WRONG......... He is a LOVING ACCEPTING God that wants ALL His children to come back to Him.
Who said that He wouldn't take you back?

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 05:57 AM
Who said that He wouldn't take you back?According to some nosas, the author of Hebrews:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, 6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 05:59 AM
According to some nosas, the author of Hebrews:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, 6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame

I understand that. But I am not aware of anyone on the board that is subscribing to that now. So I was wondering who was saying that other than some on the OSAS side that keeps telling us that we believe it while we keep saying no. ;)

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 06:05 AM
I understand that. But I am not aware of anyone on the board that is subscribing to that now. So I was wondering who was saying that other than some on the OSAS side that keeps telling us that we believe it while we keep saying no. ;)You might want to re-read moonglow's post on page 1...it seemed to me that she was implying just that. She highlighted that very verse.

I've seen it around as well... besides...if you think that those whom the author is speaking of are true Christians and NOT apostates (professing believers not true believers), then you must also conclude that they will not be "re-saved" because the text clearly says that.

ikester7579
Mar 26th 2006, 06:47 AM
If salvation is so secure, why judge us?

Example: If you knew you could not convict a person for their crimes. But held a trial anyway, what would be the point of the trial or the final judgement? It would be pointless. And since God's judgement only has two choices, to omit one is to omit the very reason a decision is made for a judgement in the first place.

It would be like going to a town were everyone was corrupt. And someone killed someone you knew. But because the whole town was corrupt, and knew the killer. They let him go for his crimes (sins) against the person who he sinned against.

The great white throne judgement:

Revelation 20:


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



The judgement by Christ:

Matthew 25:



31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



What is the difference between these two judgements?

The judgement the Father gives is of the dead. The word dead is mentioned 4 times. And it is never said that the living are being judged. The other difference is that the book of life is being used to judge the dead.

The Judgement of Christ is the judgement of the living. Why? Christ came to give life, so the only people He can judge are those who accepted his life giving gift. Not once is the word dead mentioned. Not once is the book of life mentioned. Which means the separation in the judgement of Christ, is the separation of those who were in the body of Christ (living).

This also why the separation in the judgement of Christ is between the sheep and the goats, and not the sinners and the sheep. And also why the judgement is a curse. Christ also used the illustration of what each person did, and did not do. Now, if works don't save you, then why were the goats condemned? For if the goats were sinners that never knew Christ, then the works mentioned could not save them, therefore could not condemn them either.

The works (conditions) mentioned are the same ones Christ directed us to do while on earth. Who did he tell? He told the brethren to do these things which made these works kingdom works. Kingdom works are only for the saved because not being saved and doing them has no meaning. Why? You cannot work your way to heaven from an unsaved position. Accepting Christ's free gift is the only way.

After you are saved, then the kingdom works Christ spoke of apply. But not until you are in the body of Christ. So if you go look up what Christ told the brethren to do, you will see it lines up where Christ judges the sheep and goats. The kingdom works mentioned that condemn the goats are the kingdom works that only apply to the saved. So upon knowing this, this should tell you who the goats are.

1) meat:


mt 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Meat does not have a due season in a meat that you eat type of deal. But when a person matures in Christ, and is ready for the meat of the word, in due season it should be given.


2) Drink:


mt 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

The drinking of the word, is to take in the milk of the word. The milk of the word is for those who are not mature enough to understand the meat of the word.

1cor 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

So the meat and the drink was the teaching of the word of God. Since the goats were condemned for not doing this, who were the goats? Sinners are not able to do this without the knowledge of God.


3) Stranger:


lk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Taking in a stranger is showing them salvation. For they are a stranger to the body of Christ. This is why we become brother and sisters in Christ. Upon doing so, we are not strangers anymore.


4) Naked:


rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

2cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Remember the parable of the talents?


5) Sick:


mt 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

How much healing goes on in the body of Christ today? How many people deny this power? And how many talk bad of those who are able to do this? Not knowing that Christ also said:

mk 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

There are many people suffering with all types of things, but because the body of Christ denies the power because some refuse to use it, the body becomes weak, and Satan prevails.


And what does the word of God say about those who deny the power spoke of above?


2tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


6) Prison:


philem 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,

philem 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.

If you can be a prisoner of Christ, you can also be a prisoner of Satan.

So are the sinners supposed to do all these things? And can they be condemned for this only, as shown in the judgement of Christ? So who are the goats? Those who were with Christ, but refuse to do kingdom works. Why? Because everything that condemned the goats was what?

1) Salvation? Nope
2) Their names not appearing in the book of life? Nope
3) Them not accepting Christ? Nope

It was the six things I mentioned above. All six of these are kingdom works.
And what happened to those who did not do them?



41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:



And what happened to those who did what Christ told them to do?


34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

46 but the righteous into life eternal.


This can't be any clearer than that.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 07:52 AM
We (Christians) will be judged according to what we did, for rewards or loss of them.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

ikester7579
Mar 26th 2006, 07:57 AM
We (Christians) will be judged according to what we did, for rewards or loss of them.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Then why is Christ throwing goats in lake of fire for not meeting up to the six things mentioned in my post above yours?
Also, why do we have to escape through flames?

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:01 AM
Matthew 25:31-46

"This is a description of the last judgment. It is as an explanation of the former parables. There is a judgment to come, in which every man shall be sentenced to a state of everlasting happiness, or misery. Christ shall come, not only in the glory of his Father, but in his own glory, as Mediator. The wicked and godly here dwell together, in the same cities, churches, families, and are not always to be known the one from the other; such are the weaknesses of saints, such the hypocrisies of sinners; and death takes both: but in that day they will be parted for ever. Jesus Christ is the great Shepherd; he will shortly distinguish between those that are his, and those that are not."

Matthew Henry’s Commentary (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=40&c=25)

ikester7579
Mar 26th 2006, 08:08 AM
Matthew 25:31-46

"This is a description of the last judgment. It is as an explanation of the former parables. There is a judgment to come, in which every man shall be sentenced to a state of everlasting happiness, or misery. Christ shall come, not only in the glory of his Father, but in his own glory, as Mediator. The wicked and godly here dwell together, in the same cities, churches, families, and are not always to be known the one from the other; such are the weaknesses of saints, such the hypocrisies of sinners; and death takes both: but in that day they will be parted for ever. Jesus Christ is the great Shepherd; he will shortly distinguish between those that are his, and those that are not."

Matthew Henry’s Commentary (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=40&c=25)

By salvation you determine this if salvation is 100% secure. But here we see people only judged by kingdom works, then cast into hell.

Can Christ lie, even in a parable? Because Christ knows the past as well as the future. His parables were of either things that have happened, or had not yet happened. For if one parable never happened, then Christ would be a liar. Being holy, rightous and perfect means you cannot lie period. And I would question anyone who says that parables give Christ the right to lie. Why, only the blood of Christ gives forgiveness. Not the mention of the word parable.

Example: When God asks you why you sinned, will the word parable save you from judgement? No more than it would keep Christ Holy, rightous, or perfect.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 09:18 AM
the goats are not true Christians, that's why they are cast into the lake of fire.
the sheep are true Christians.

ikester7579
Mar 26th 2006, 09:27 AM
the goats are not true Christians, that's why they are cast into the lake of fire.
the sheep are true Christians.

Can this be backed up with scripture?

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 10:01 AM
yeah, Jesus is the true shepherd and the SHEEP (not goats) follow his voice.

you know what I am talking about. I am honestly too tired to look up the verse.

If you do not follow his voice then you are not his (not a sheep then what are you? you are a goat)...right?

Do you know what a goat is? How it behaves?

I am going to bed.

Bandit
Mar 26th 2006, 12:11 PM
A little backround to this before I begin. I have been reading the debate going on about OSAS and NOSAS for a few weeks now and earlier this week I sat down with my pastor and talked to him about it because I was concerned that the NOSAS may be right. He told me that they are not but he needed to find the book that would be easist to use to explain it to me with. Today he sat down with me and explained everything to me. So here is the answer that he came up with to explain that once you are saved you are always saved and that you can not "lose" your salvation.

The following is from the book " Systematic Theology: The Assurance of Salvation" I forgot to write down the name of the author so I appologize in advance.

"Salvation is an Irrevocable Gift
...
Salvation is an Unconditional Promise
...
Salvation cannot be lost by our Good Works
...Thus the gift of salvation is a present possession and God's gifts cannot be RETRACTED "


So as you can see.....what Im getting at is this......SALVATION is a gift from God that we recieved the minute we took Jesus into our lives. God's gifts are NONRETRACTABLE............ THIS MEANS THAT SALVATION IS NONRETRACTABLE.

JP27



Hello JP27,

I could address the scriptures mentioned in your post, and how they might mean something different than systematic theology says, but that would probably go nowhere. Instead, I would like you to consider one little passage: the parable on the hard-hearted servant at the end of Matthew 18. It seems this servant lost something after he received it. What did he loose? Why did he loose it? What warning does Jesus give after the parable? What is the point of the parable?

I have asked these kinds of questions to OSAS advocates before, and even done so on other message boards, and even in person to OSAS pastors, and I have never gotten anyone to actually address this parable directly...not one OSAS person...ever...period! Now that is saying something.

Do yourself a favor. Put that systematic theology book down and simply read the bible itself, asking God to guide you himself. You will come a lot closer to understanding it this way. Think about it, if there is even one place where the OSAS principle is violated in scripture (like Matthew 18 for instance), then OSAS is probably not a true biblical principle. And I could actually point out may passages which violate the OSAS principle. The real question then becomes what do the scriptures really teach in respect to eternal sercuity, and how do we fit the apparently contradictory set of passages together. In another thread I am trying to get people to examine the paradigm (mind-set) they have when they approach the bible. Depending upon the mind-set they have, they will read scripture differently. I claim there is a mind-set (paradigm) in which the "eternal security" passages fit quite naturally with the "conditional passages". If we are really trying to get at biblical truth, it seems we would want to use that paradigm which minimizes scriptural conflict. I do sincerely want to help, but there is so much yelling and screaming and "proof-texting" around here that it is very hard to even hear one's self think.

May God bless you sincere effort to find truth, if indeed it is sincere.

Bandit

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 12:59 PM
You might want to re-read moonglow's post on page 1...it seemed to me that she was implying just that. She highlighted that very verse.

I've seen it around as well... besides...if you think that those whom the author is speaking of are true Christians and NOT apostates (professing believers not true believers), then you must also conclude that they will not be "re-saved" because the text clearly says that.Moonglow just posted the passage. Assuming the original poster followed the latest round of post on this topic then I figure the OP knows that Moonglow has often spoke about folks returning back to the Lord.

As to your summary of the passage... it isn't just someone who got saved and then fell away. It would take someone that has met the traits that the writer of Hebrews laid out. Someone that is very mature in Christ... mature enough that they should even be teachers. Should a person such as that fall away then that is the person that is apostate and in a heap of stinks. While I know of some that likely fit that criterea and have fallen away... most who fall away are more akin to the folks in the parable of the soils. They were there for a while but various things happened and they fell away. While they need to get saved and endure till the end... that isn't a person that is apostate in accordance with this passage in Hebrews.

2 Peter 2... the false teacher he speaks of... that would be a much greater example of an apostate.

Tom Lessing
Mar 26th 2006, 01:00 PM
Read Lars post above yours here and it touches on the context pretty well. The context is that throughout that chapter... the two previous chapters as well truth be known. Israel was still beloved by God and will always be beloved by God. With that God will not repent. But there is no guarantee that every human being that is Jewish is attached back into the tree. Those cut off branches are enemies for the sake of the gospel but they are still beloved by God.

Nonetheless... many are cut off because of their unbelief and disobedience.

So while the gifts and the calling are without repentance... not all will be chosen. Remember the parables of Jesus when He speaks of the wedding banquet for the kings son. How the invited guest refused to come because they all had their excuses. They were all called... but later, come banquet time... they were not chosen.

There are many such scenario's throughout the Scripture showing the same thing.

We've discussed the meaning of the Olive Tree on so many occasions in the past and yet the NOSAS cllaimants still persist that one must be saved to be grafted into that tree. Verse 12 of chapter 11 says very clearly that the entire Gentile world benefited from israel's lapse. Is the entire world saved? Paul simply said that some were cut of because of their unbelief. No one can infer from this that they were once saved and then lost their salvation. Was the entire nation of Israel saved? Neither does the banquet prove that a saint can lose his salvation. When man fails to respond to God's calling, does it nullify the immutability of His calling? God will never call someone and then turn around and say "I never called you." If God says His gifts and calling is irrevocable then you can be sure His gifts and His calling are irrevocable. He is not a liar.

This thread underpins my concern about the damage the doctrine of NOSAS can cause amongst the sheep. How many, like the member who started this thread, are confused by the statements the NOSAS camp make and need to go to a mature Christian for help so as not to have their faith damaged by NOSAS?

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 01:05 PM
We've discussed the meaning of the Olive Tree on so many occasions in the past and yet the NOSAS cllaimants still persist that one must be saved to be grafted into that tree. Verse 12 of chapter 11 says very clearly that the entire Gentile world benefited from israel's lapse. Is the entire world saved? Paul simply said that some were cut of because of their unbelief. No one can infer from this that they were once saved and then lost their salvation. Was the entire nation of Israel saved? Neither does the banquet prove that a saint can lose his salvation. When man fails to respond to God's calling, does it nullify the immutability of His calling? God will never call someone and then turn around and say "I never called you." If God says His gifts and calling is irrevocable then you can be sure His gifts and His calling are irrevocable. He is not a liar.

This thread underpins my concern about the damage the doctrine of NOSAS can cause amongst the sheep. How many, like the member who started this thread, are confused by the statements the NOSAS camp make and need to go to a mature Christian for help so as not to have their faith damaged by NOSAS?
I see. But isn't one of the biggest things that you have gone on about... that this passage in Romans 11 isn't a salvation issue? If that holds true for the majority of that text Tom... why then would you think that this one passage of text is?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 01:11 PM
And by the way... GOOD MORNING TOM!!! :D

I am fixing to head out... I am going to an early service this morning. So it'll be a bit before I get back in. Just figured I'd greet you proper and let you know I'm not ignoring your post when I don't respond straight-way!

Later

Tom Lessing
Mar 26th 2006, 01:28 PM
I understand that. But I am not aware of anyone on the board that is subscribing to that now. So I was wondering who was saying that other than some on the OSAS side that keeps telling us that we believe it while we keep saying no. ;)

As far as I can recall one of your buddies on this board said that once you have lost your salvation . . . that's it. You're a gonner for all eternity. But you are saying, if I undrstand you correctly, that you can lose your salvation a multitude of times only to be reborn again a multitude of times.

Tom

JesusPhreak27
Mar 26th 2006, 01:36 PM
Hello JP27,

I could address the scriptures mentioned in your post, and how they might mean something different than systematic theology says, but that would probably go nowhere. Instead, I would like you to consider one little passage: the parable on the hard-hearted servant at the end of Matthew 18. It seems this servant lost something after he received it. What did he loose? Why did he loose it? What warning does Jesus give after the parable? What is the point of the parable?

I have asked these kinds of questions to OSAS advocates before, and even done so on other message boards, and even in person to OSAS pastors, and I have never gotten anyone to actually address this parable directly...not one OSAS person...ever...period! Now that is saying something.

Do yourself a favor. Put that systematic theology book down and simply read the bible itself, asking God to guide you himself. You will come a lot closer to understanding it this way. Think about it, if there is even one place where the OSAS principle is violated in scripture (like Matthew 18 for instance), then OSAS is probably not a true biblical principle. And I could actually point out may passages which violate the OSAS principle. The real question then becomes what do the scriptures really teach in respect to eternal sercuity, and how do we fit the apparently contradictory set of passages together. In another thread I am trying to get people to examine the paradigm (mind-set) they have when they approach the bible. Depending upon the mind-set they have, they will read scripture differently. I claim there is a mind-set (paradigm) in which the "eternal security" passages fit quite naturally with the "conditional passages". If we are really trying to get at biblical truth, it seems we would want to use that paradigm which minimizes scriptural conflict. I do sincerely want to help, but there is so much yelling and screaming and "proof-texting" around here that it is very hard to even hear one's self think.

May God bless you sincere effort to find truth, if indeed it is sincere.

Bandit

I will go back to my original question then......... How can you lose salvation when it is a GIFT from God and God cant take His gifts back???

Im not saying that just because you are saved taht you "automatically" get in the the Kingdom. What Im saying is that as long as in your heart (He knows EVERYTHING about you so you cant fool Him) you try to walk the same path that Jesus walked (meaning be as Christ like as possible) then our Father will remember that when the Judgement comes (Thats another discussion for a different time. When you go to Heaven / Hell...... I personally believe the decision is made directly after you die......) He knows if you are trying your hardest to be a Christian or if you are just "using" the title to sound good. BUT ONE bad act will not lose your salvation. Again.....like I said if thats true then this is all a waste of time because NONE of us are going to be with Him. He wants ALL of His children to be with Him in the Kingdom. Yes He lets the advesary do certain things to us, but as tests to see if we will turn to Him for the help we need (Psalms 121).

Lets take a look at this example.......... Man A......... Has a good life nice car, big house etc...... Goes to church every Sunday and goes to Bible Study during the week... Doesnt sin too often....... leads a pretty good life..... gives lots of money to the church.....sponsers missionaries etc then there is Man B Doesnt have as much money but still gives his family enough...... He was just recently saved and baptized.....He turned his back on God for 5 years because of what he THOUGHT God did to him by taking his father from him.......But now he goes to Church every Sunday and helps lead Youth Bible Study on Wednesdays...... gives a little bit of money each week to the church..........is even taking in a girl at his church that doesnt have a home anymore because of her parents that are worthless.... Now this man has an addiction to stuff on the computer (I shouldnt have to say what) that he has been PRAYING and PRAYING to to the Lord that he would stop looking at the stuff....... but he just cant yet.

(I use this is example because one of those two men is me ........Ill give you all a clue its not Man A) Now if Man A and Man B were to die at the same time which one would go to Heaven? The answer is BOTH......... Just because Man B has an addiction that he cant shake from his OLD life doesnt mean that he isnt as good as Man A.

Thats what I mean by salvation is guarenteed. Just because a person has an addiction they may not be able to break free of and that person turned away from God because of human stupidity (I.....I mean Man B felt that God took his father away from him to be mean at the time.... but realized later that He took his father to be home because God didnt want his father hurting anymore) does not mean taht he loses his salvation. I dont know how else to explain this to you guys.

Tom Lessing
Mar 26th 2006, 01:46 PM
I see. But isn't one of the biggest things that you have gone on about... that this passage in Romans 11 isn't a salvation issue? If that holds true for the majority of that text Tom... why then would you think that this one passage of text is?

I never said or even suggested in the very slightest that Romans 11 or even the entire epistle to the Romans is not a salvation issue. Paul himself was so grieved that he was prepared to lose his salvation (if that were possible) for his brethren's sake. I said that the Olive Tree cannot be interpreted has having any soteriological meaning or value. God included the Gentiles into the very same divine ecomomy into which Israel had been included throughout the Old Testament but then lost it because of their unblief. Within that economy God revealed Himself as the only true God whose kindness, longsuffering, compassion, love, righteousness and just judgments wanted to lead them to repentance and true faith in Him. When the majority was cut off because of their unbelief (those who never responded in true repentance and faith to God's calling) the entire Gentile world was included in His economy (Olive tree) also to lead the Gentiles to repentance and true faith in Hiim. Like the most of the Jews, the majorityof the Gentiles are also not responding in repentance and true faith to His calling an are also going to be cut off.

Tom

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 03:52 PM
yeah, Jesus is the true shepherd and the SHEEP (not goats) follow his voice.

you know what I am talking about. I am honestly too tired to look up the verse.

If you do not follow his voice then you are not his (not a sheep then what are you? you are a goat)...right?

Do you know what a goat is? How it behaves?

I am going to bed.It's John chapter 10 :)
John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:11 I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:15 Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep who are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock, one Shepherd.

John 10:26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you, 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one!
Pretty clear to me that Jesus came to save His sheep...and His sheep follow Him...they don't reject Him...they don't walk away...they don't apostasize. The ones who do apostasize are goats...because they don't follow Him.

If it pretends to be a sheep but doesn't continue on like a sheep...it's a goat. That is the key to eternal security. His sheep follow Him.

Jesus also said that He knows them...but then what about this verse?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? 23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
These are the indications of goats. They did works in His name and thought they were sheep. But they weren't because Jesus says HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Only Jesus knows who those are...not even the goats know they are goats, I believe. The sheep know they are sheep...that is clear because they follow Him...I would think the goats would only know they are goats when they stop following Him...but then, they wouldn't believe that the Scripture is referring to them now, would they? Because they wouldn't believe! Goats do not persevere...sheep do.
Matthew 18:12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them strays, does he not leave the ninety and nine and go into the mountains and seek the straying one? 13 And if it happens that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices more over it than over the ninety and nine which did not stray.
Jesus will go after the sheep that stray...this doesn't talk about Jesus going after the goats...does it?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 05:24 PM
As far as I can recall one of your buddies on this board said that once you have lost your salvation . . . that's it. You're a gonner for all eternity. But you are saying, if I undrstand you correctly, that you can lose your salvation a multitude of times only to be reborn again a multitude of times.

TomOwen believed that at one point in time... but he's since learned otherwise and has stated as such a while back in a thread where you and I discussed this very thing. Not sure that there is anyone else other than perhaps the occassional drive by poster that jumps in and then goes. I don't know of any of the regular folk around here that believe that although there may be some. They don't participate in the discussion if there are though.

ILUVLIGHT
Mar 26th 2006, 05:28 PM
Hi Peter;

Well the proof passage was Romans 11:29. What gift was Paul talking about in that passage?
The actual text says "gifts" which is plural. It's not a matter of which gift because the word "Gifts" implies them all.
I believe it's the same in the NASB as well as the KJV.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike :)

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 05:29 PM
I never said or even suggested in the very slightest that Romans 11 or even the entire epistle to the Romans is not a salvation issue. Paul himself was so grieved that he was prepared to lose his salvation (if that were possible) for his brethren's sake. I said that the Olive Tree cannot be interpreted has having any soteriological meaning or value. God included the Gentiles into the very same divine ecomomy into which Israel had been included throughout the Old Testament but then lost it because of their unblief. Within that economy God revealed Himself as the only true God whose kindness, longsuffering, compassion, love, righteousness and just judgments wanted to lead them to repentance and true faith in Him. When the majority was cut off because of their unbelief (those who never responded in true repentance and faith to God's calling) the entire Gentile world was included in His economy (Olive tree) also to lead the Gentiles to repentance and true faith in Hiim. Like the most of the Jews, the majorityof the Gentiles are also not responding in repentance and true faith to His calling an are also going to be cut off.

TomOkay so help me out here. The first part of Romans 11 is about salvation... the last part is about salvation... but that middle part when speaking of the tree... a totally different message? You do realize that part about the gifts and callings being without repentance is simply a continuation of that whole olive tree discourse... right?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 05:32 PM
Hi Peter;

The actual text says "gifts" which is plural. It's not a matter of which gift because the word "Gifts" implies them all.
I believe it's the same in the NASB as well as the KJV.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike :)Exactly. So since it isn't speaking of a single gift... and yet one can show Scripturally where a gift was in fact revoked... is it then reasonable to consider that folks are just not understanding what the passage is actually saying?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 05:37 PM
I will go back to my original question then......... How can you lose salvation when it is a GIFT from God and God cant take His gifts back???

Im not saying that just because you are saved taht you "automatically" get in the the Kingdom. What Im saying is that as long as in your heart (He knows EVERYTHING about you so you cant fool Him) you try to walk the same path that Jesus walked (meaning be as Christ like as possible) then our Father will remember that when the Judgement comes (Thats another discussion for a different time. When you go to Heaven / Hell...... I personally believe the decision is made directly after you die......) He knows if you are trying your hardest to be a Christian or if you are just "using" the title to sound good. BUT ONE bad act will not lose your salvation. Again.....like I said if thats true then this is all a waste of time because NONE of us are going to be with Him. He wants ALL of His children to be with Him in the Kingdom. Yes He lets the advesary do certain things to us, but as tests to see if we will turn to Him for the help we need (Psalms 121).

Lets take a look at this example.......... Man A......... Has a good life nice car, big house etc...... Goes to church every Sunday and goes to Bible Study during the week... Doesnt sin too often....... leads a pretty good life..... gives lots of money to the church.....sponsers missionaries etc then there is Man B Doesnt have as much money but still gives his family enough...... He was just recently saved and baptized.....He turned his back on God for 5 years because of what he THOUGHT God did to him by taking his father from him.......But now he goes to Church every Sunday and helps lead Youth Bible Study on Wednesdays...... gives a little bit of money each week to the church..........is even taking in a girl at his church that doesnt have a home anymore because of her parents that are worthless.... Now this man has an addiction to stuff on the computer (I shouldnt have to say what) that he has been PRAYING and PRAYING to to the Lord that he would stop looking at the stuff....... but he just cant yet.

(I use this is example because one of those two men is me ........Ill give you all a clue its not Man A) Now if Man A and Man B were to die at the same time which one would go to Heaven? The answer is BOTH......... Just because Man B has an addiction that he cant shake from his OLD life doesnt mean that he isnt as good as Man A.

Thats what I mean by salvation is guarenteed. Just because a person has an addiction they may not be able to break free of and that person turned away from God because of human stupidity (I.....I mean Man B felt that God took his father away from him to be mean at the time.... but realized later that He took his father to be home because God didnt want his father hurting anymore) does not mean taht he loses his salvation. I dont know how else to explain this to you guys.I am not going to respond to much of this but here is some advice that I will give you. You can stop looking at stuff on the Internet regardless of what you think. Cut it off. Reach your hand down and unplug the thing. Pack it up... put it in the car... give it away or throw it away. If you can't deal with the temptation (and that is the problem... not that you can't stop) then get the temptation from out in front of your face. And that is just simple God given prudence no matter what you believe in regard to OSAS or otherwise.

Bandit
Mar 26th 2006, 06:04 PM
I will go back to my original question then......... How can you lose salvation when it is a GIFT from God and God cant take His gifts back??? .



Hello JP27,

I am sorry, but I haven’t really been following your discussion, so I’m not exactly sure what you are getting at, though I have skimmed enough to where I think I have a pretty good idea. I believe you probably have in mind Romans 11:29 which says,

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." [Rom. 11:29]

I believe context is critically important in determining the meaning of any passage, and this one is no exception. I believe this verse is a restatement of what Paul said in Romans 9:1-5. (Please read it.) Paul in chapters 9-11 is dealing with the question of the people of Israel. Paul’s main question for this section of Romans is stated in verse 11:1&2.

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! ... God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. ..." [Rom. 11:1-2]

There are many other relevant passages I could site. Another is Zacharias’ prophesy in Luke 1:67-79, please read this one as well.

The point Paul is making is that there was a promise to the fathers of Israel - a promise to Israel corporately - that God would provide for the ultimate salvation for His people, and not only His people, but the whole world as well. A common mistake that many make is that they take this corporate promise and apply it on an individual basis. Please realize that this is a mistake. The promise and calling in question concern Israel as a whole, and not each and every individual Israelite (or each and every Christian). I don’t have the time to follow this any further at this time, but I hope this is enough for now.




Im not saying that just because you are saved taht you "automatically" get in the the Kingdom. What Im saying is that as long as in your heart (He knows EVERYTHING about you so you cant fool Him) you try to walk the same path that Jesus walked (meaning be as Christ like as possible) then our Father will remember that when the Judgement comes (Thats another discussion for a different time. When you go to Heaven / Hell...... I personally believe the decision is made directly after you die......) He knows if you are trying your hardest to be a Christian or if you are just "using" the title to sound good. BUT ONE bad act will not lose your salvation. Again.....like I said if thats true then this is all a waste of time because NONE of us are going to be with Him. He wants ALL of His children to be with Him in the Kingdom. Yes He lets the advesary do certain things to us, but as tests to see if we will turn to Him for the help we need (Psalms 121).

Lets take a look at this example.......... Man A......... Has a good life nice car, big house etc...... Goes to church every Sunday and goes to Bible Study during the week... Doesnt sin too often....... leads a pretty good life..... gives lots of money to the church.....sponsers missionaries etc then there is Man B Doesnt have as much money but still gives his family enough...... He was just recently saved and baptized.....He turned his back on God for 5 years because of what he THOUGHT God did to him by taking his father from him.......But now he goes to Church every Sunday and helps lead Youth Bible Study on Wednesdays...... gives a little bit of money each week to the church..........is even taking in a girl at his church that doesnt have a home anymore because of her parents that are worthless.... Now this man has an addiction to stuff on the computer (I shouldnt have to say what) that he has been PRAYING and PRAYING to to the Lord that he would stop looking at the stuff....... but he just cant yet.

(I use this is example because one of those two men is me ........Ill give you all a clue its not Man A) Now if Man A and Man B were to die at the same time which one would go to Heaven? The answer is BOTH......... Just because Man B has an addiction that he cant shake from his OLD life doesnt mean that he isnt as good as Man A.

Thats what I mean by salvation is guarenteed. Just because a person has an addiction they may not be able to break free of and that person turned away from God because of human stupidity (I.....I mean Man B felt that God took his father away from him to be mean at the time.... but realized later that He took his father to be home because God didnt want his father hurting anymore) does not mean taht he loses his salvation. I dont know how else to explain this to you guys.




Ok, I now have a little clearer picture of the questions involved. Remember first that God is long-suffering, willing that no one should perish (1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9), but also remember that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God (Heb. 10:31). Our task is to walk acceptably before Him (Micah 6:8). This we can do, as we walk by the leading of the Spirit (Romans 8:1,4,12-14).

No one should take his salvation lightly. Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), and let everyone who names the mane of the Lord depart from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19).

Having now quoted enough verses, let’s acknowledge that none of us ever becomes perfect in this lifetime, but we are called to choose between two paths, between two kingdoms, between two destinies. The right choice is the one that demands the most from us. We must fight the good fight. We must run as to win. Sanctification is not an option, but a commandment. Those who are the saved must walk this path. One way to look at it is like this. Your life is like a field, and the Lord has planted seed in it. There are obstructions and weeds which can choke out the seed He has planted. Part of the Holy Spirit’s role is to alert you to these obstructions and weeds. With His help, when you become saved you agree to be a party in clearing and maintaining your field. As would make sense, you begin by clearing the biggest boulders and weeds first, working down to the small stuff (which is always popping up). But let’s say you begin to neglect your field, or neglect certain kinds of weeds. As the parable of the sower says, these can grow to a point where they choke out the seed the Lord planted. (Please read all three versions of the parable of the sower - Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8.) Do not be deceived. Being saved requires a certain amount of constant vigilance. The OSAS message is a deadly one. It says that once your in, you can’t loose it, you can let your guard down. I doubt a more deceitful "Christian" doctrine has ever been devised. I do not condemn anyone, but there is One who is Judge. If you sincerely want this addiction kicked, then He is the One who can and will help you to do it. But do not be deceived. There are many who have fallen away because of such weeds. (This kind of warning is a major part of the parable of the sower.) This weed may not have yet separated you from the Lord, but be very careful. The devil is look for ways to bring each of us down. Do not let him gain a foothold in your field. Root this weed out before it takes over your field. If you make this a priority in your life, He will make it a priority in His. This weed may have deep roots, and you may have to keep after it for the rest of your life, but never turn your back on it. Do not be deceived. I will keep you lifted up in prayer. Forget what is behind; press on towards the goal.

Bandit

slightlypuzzled
Mar 26th 2006, 06:20 PM
Paul, in Ephesians two, records how God has saved Israel:

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called " Uncircumcision" by the so-called " Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;

18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,

20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

God has saved both Jews and Gentiles, and created one new body of believers for God's dwelling. In Christ, God has bought salvation to both Jews and Gentiles. If you follow the events in Acts, that is the message that the Jews had to learn.

Owen
Mar 26th 2006, 06:38 PM
Hi Peter;

The actual text says "gifts" which is plural. It's not a matter of which gift because the word "Gifts" implies them all.
I believe it's the same in the NASB as well as the KJV.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike :)

Actually, it is literally "the gifts" in the Greek, referencing some specific gifts that God had given to the Jews. "The gifts" does not dictate that every gift is unrevokable, but rather the gifts that Paul is specifically mentioning here. Since Paul is saying unbelieving Jews (enemies of the Gospel) are still loved by God and then explaining why they are still loved though they are unbelievers, the gifts does not include salvation.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 06:52 PM
It's John chapter 10 :)
John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:11 I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:15 Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep who are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock, one Shepherd.

John 10:26 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you, 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. 29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one!
Pretty clear to me that Jesus came to save His sheep...and His sheep follow Him...they don't reject Him...they don't walk away...they don't apostasize. The ones who do apostasize are goats...because they don't follow Him.

If it pretends to be a sheep but doesn't continue on like a sheep...it's a goat. That is the key to eternal security. His sheep follow Him.

Jesus also said that He knows them...but then what about this verse?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? 23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
These are the indications of goats. They did works in His name and thought they were sheep. But they weren't because Jesus says HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Only Jesus knows who those are...not even the goats know they are goats, I believe. The sheep know they are sheep...that is clear because they follow Him...I would think the goats would only know they are goats when they stop following Him...but then, they wouldn't believe that the Scripture is referring to them now, would they? Because they wouldn't believe! Goats do not persevere...sheep do.
Matthew 18:12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them strays, does he not leave the ninety and nine and go into the mountains and seek the straying one? 13 And if it happens that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices more over it than over the ninety and nine which did not stray.
Jesus will go after the sheep that stray...this doesn't talk about Jesus going after the goats...does it?

yes yes yes...that's it. John 10 :) Thank-you (you said everything I wanted to say).

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 06:59 PM
I'd like to ask people who believe NOSAS a question:

if you can lose your salvation how do you get it back?
This also applies to giving it up too (not losing but YOU giving it up. Either way you don't have salvation anymore.).

The question is how do you get it back again?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 07:02 PM
I'd like to ask people who believe NOSAS a question:

if you can lose your salvation how do you get it back?
This also applies to giving it up too (not losing but YOU giving it up. Either way you don't have salvation anymore.).

The question is how do you get it back again?
Repent and turn back to God.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 07:06 PM
Repent and turn back to God.

you would have to start at the beginning again, wouldn't you?

You've lost it...it's not there anymore. You would have to ask Jesus into your heart AGAIN, right? Isn't that how you get saved in the first place?

We aren't talking about when you do something wrong and you repent of that. We are talking about losing it, not having it anymore, so you would have to start all over again. Right? Or is there another way to get saved?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 07:15 PM
you would have to start at the beginning again, wouldn't you?

You've lost it...it's not there anymore. You would have to ask Jesus into your heart AGAIN, right? Isn't that how you get saved in the first place?

We aren't talking about when you do something wrong and you repent of that. We are talking about losing it, not having it anymore, so you would have to start all over again. Right? Or is there another way to get saved?Well what do you mean by asking Jesus "into your heart?"

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 07:19 PM
Well what do you mean by asking Jesus "into your heart?"

how did you become saved?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 07:21 PM
how did you become saved?
By repenting and turning to God. But the question still stands... what do you mean by "asking Jesus in your heart?" I ask because to some it means differently than with others. So I just needed the clarification on what you mean when saying it.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 07:28 PM
By repenting and turning to God. But the question still stands... what do you mean by "asking Jesus in your heart?" I ask because to some it means differently than with others. So I just needed the clarification on what you mean when saying it.


you are not answering the question.

Once you were a sinner, without Christ...you were lost in your sins.
HOW do you become saved? You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, and ask Him into your heart. You trust in what HE did on the cross for you. That's why he died on the cross for you. He payed for your sins. AND THAT'S WHAT SAVES YOU.

So, when someone says you can lose (or give it up...whatever way...it's still not there anymore) you would have to get it back.

How would you get it back again? Start from the beginning. And what would you be doing? Crucifying Christ all over again. Christ would have to die for your sins all over again...and again and again.

katiekristen
Mar 26th 2006, 07:32 PM
Repent and turn back to God.



have you personally at some time lost your salvation and been resaved (according to your beliefs...not mine! i believe in once saved always saved)...if so, why did you lose it? how many times can you be resaved? how bad do you have to be to lose it? or how good to keep it? if you get mad at God is this turning your back on Him? if you cuss at Him, is this bad enough to assume its turning your back on Him? I am not just tossing random questions at you, its something that needs to be thought through clearly. HOW would you know you had "walked away" from Him ENOUGH to lose it? blessings!

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 07:37 PM
you are not answering the question.Actually I did answer your question and then if you would be so kind as to go back and look... I asked you a question for clarification of what it is that you mean by a phrase you used in your question... if you cannot or will not answer that plea for clarification then how is it that you expect me to answer you?


Once you were a sinner, without Christ...you were lost in your sins.
HOW do you become saved? You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, and ask Him into your heart. You trust in what HE did on the cross for you. That's why he died on the cross for you. He payed for your sins. AND THAT'S WHAT SAVES YOU.

So, when someone says you can lose (or give it up...whatever way...it's still not there anymore) you would have to get it back.

How would you get it back again? Start from the beginning. And what would you be doing? Crucifying Christ all over again. Christ would have to die for your sins all over again...and again and again.And again... back to the same question. What do you mean by "asking Him into your heart?" We're good on the believe and repent and between those two I would add confess... but that whole into your heart thing can mean something to you that may or may not be biblical. So until you clarify what you mean... I cannot agree with that part or even disagree with it. I haven't a clue what you mean by it.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 07:46 PM
have you personally at some time lost your salvation and been resaved (according to your beliefs...not mine! i believe in once saved always saved)...if so, why did you lose it? how many times can you be resaved? how bad do you have to be to lose it? or how good to keep it? if you get mad at God is this turning your back on Him? if you cuss at Him, is this bad enough to assume its turning your back on Him? I am not just tossing random questions at you, its something that needs to be thought through clearly. HOW would you know you had "walked away" from Him ENOUGH to lose it? blessings!I would think that if you cursed God... that falls into the catagory of a bad thing don't you agree? For reference there... you might read Job.

One loses it because they harden their hearts... you can reference Hebrews for that.

As to how many times... It would be best if it is never.

How bad... depends on what you mean by bad I suppose. Some simply walk away because of persecutions and they couldn't deal with it. They weren't firmly rooted and they fell away. Some, like the children of Israel as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10 or Hebrews 3 and 4... they were pretty bad.

How good... it isn't about good because that too is dependent upon a persons definition. But read 2 Peter 1:1-11. There you will find the true way to biblical eternal security. Do those things and you will never stumble.

Did I get everything? I think I did!

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 07:48 PM
Actually I did answer your question and then if you would be so kind as to go back and look... I asked you a question for clarification of what it is that you mean by a phrase you used in your question... if you cannot or will not answer that plea for clarification then how is it that you expect me to answer you?

And again... back to the same question. What do you mean by "asking Him into your heart?" We're good on the believe and repent and between those two I would add confess... but that whole into your heart thing can mean something to you that may or may not be biblical. So until you clarify what you mean... I cannot agree with that part or even disagree with it. I haven't a clue what you mean by it.

it seems you are groping for any little word to avoid answering the question. *ugh*

okay...ignore the heart part (btw...asking jesus into your heart means you are trusting in Him for what he did on the cross for you. Christ is living IN you now. I thought I explained it once already...I guess I didn't put it right.

Once you were a sinner, without Christ...you were lost in your sins.
HOW do you become saved? You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, and ask Him into your heart. You trust in what HE did on the cross for you. That's why he died on the cross for you. He payed for your sins. AND THAT'S WHAT SAVES YOU.

The point is is you cannot get it back again. Why? Because you'd be crucifying Christ all over again. You are starting from the beginning.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.

slightlypuzzled
Mar 26th 2006, 07:58 PM
I'd like to ask people who believe NOSAS a question:

if you can lose your salvation how do you get it back?
This also applies to giving it up too (not losing but YOU giving it up. Either way you don't have salvation anymore.).

The question is how do you get it back again?

To me, your analogy is not what I mean at all. You do not lose it like your keys, or the tv remote. It more like a relationship that has to be restored. You don't go back and do all the 'first things' you did to establish that relationship, but you do take steps to mend whatever caused that relationship to go bad. This is where repentance comes in. You repent, confess your sins, and resume your life with God.... I John 1:8-9

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:04 PM
To me, your analogy is not what I mean at all. You do not lose it like your keys, or the tv remote. It more like a relationship that has to be restored. You don't go back and do all the 'first things' you did to establish that relationship, but you do take steps to mend whatever caused that relationship to go bad. This is where repentance comes in. You repent, confess your sins, and resume your life with God.... I John 1:8-9

...resume your life with God. You don't have to start all over again because you never lost it.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 08:08 PM
it seems you are groping for any little word to avoid answering the question. *ugh*By asking you for clarification? I have done everything but avoid answering anything you have said. If you think asking for clarification is avoiding a question then perhaps later in life you will come to understand it is a better thing to do than simply assume. I don't know you and can't recall ever discussing much with you. So I haven't a clue what you mean by that. Hence the need for clarification. It really is that simple. Had you simply explained what you meant when I first asked then I suppose we'd be elsewhere in the discussion by now.



okay...ignore the heart part (btw...asking jesus into your heart means you are trusting in Him for what he did on the cross for you. Christ is living IN you now. I thought I explained it once already...I guess I didn't put it right.I think that was answered then when I said "believe" right? If that is your definition then I have in fact already answered you.



The point is is you cannot get it back again. Why? Because you'd be crucifying Christ all over again. You are starting from the beginning.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that.And that isn't the context of that Hebrews passage.

This will be easier than typing it all up again. You can read this and if you want to reply within that thread you certainly can. It isn't that old.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=681717&postcount=55

slightlypuzzled
Mar 26th 2006, 08:11 PM
...resume your life with God. You don't have to start all over again because you never lost it.

Not at that point, but there comes a point at which you do walk away and sever the relationship.....just as in a marriage gone really bad...

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:18 PM
By asking you for clarification? I have done everything but avoid answering anything you have said. If you think asking for clarification is avoiding a question then perhaps later in life you will come to understand it is a better thing to do than simply assume. I don't know you and can't recall ever discussing much with you. So I haven't a clue what you mean by that. Hence the need for clarification. It really is that simple. Had you simply explained what you meant when I first asked then I suppose we'd be elsewhere in the discussion by now.


I think that was answered then when I said "believe" right? If that is your definition then I have in fact already answered you.

And that isn't the context of that Hebrews passage.

This will be easier than typing it all up again. You can read this and if you want to reply within that thread you certainly can. It isn't that old.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=681717&postcount=55

wow...ummm...
You are still ignoring the 'crucifying Christ all over again' part because that is exactly what you would be doing. Please show me where you answered that in your previous posts?

ikester7579
Mar 26th 2006, 08:20 PM
I'd like to ask people who believe NOSAS a question:

if you can lose your salvation how do you get it back?
This also applies to giving it up too (not losing but YOU giving it up. Either way you don't have salvation anymore.).

The question is how do you get it back again?

Before I answer this question, I have a question about an earlier post:

You used the term: "true christian" in one of your posts. What is the difference between a true Christian and a untrue Christian? Are there degrees to being saved?

For you to even imply this also makes you realize there will be a division on judgement day. Whether you want to see them as goats are not. For the only thing that makes a person stand before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged is salvation. So if Christ splits us, it means that the ones who denied Christ, mocked the Father, sinned wilfully, etc... Fell from grace, were given the right hand left hand judgement, cursed and cast into hell. Just like the word says.

--------------------
Can you come back again?

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1) Brethren=believer
2) If any of you do err from truth= erring far enough to fall from grace.

Side note: Notice it does not say "sin". It says to err from the truth. Which means to willingly turn from God while you sin. It is one thing to sin ask forgiveness, and repent to the best of your ability. It is totally different to sin wilfully. Which means you don't ask forgiveness when you sin, and you don't try to repent of it. And there are Christians who do this.

3) One convert him= the brethren has falling far enough to need conversion.

Side note: I used to be baptist, now I'm not affiliated with no church, except Christ. The baptist actually contradicted there teachings of osas by doing something as if it were needed. A known saved person can rededicate themselves. Why rededicate if things are always the same?

The last verse (20) is self explained. It means exactly what it says. And also means you can come back.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:23 PM
Before I answer this question, I have a question about an earlier post:

You used the term: "true christian" in one of your posts. What is the difference between a true Christian and a untrue Christian? Are there degrees to being saved?


Humbled already answered that question. Please go back and look.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 08:25 PM
wow...ummm...
You are still ignoring the 'crucifying Christ all over again' part because that is exactly what you would be doing. Please show me where you answered that in your previous posts?Uh... I gave you a link to a post that explains who the person is being spoken to in that passage of Hebrews. So no Brenda... I didn't ignore it.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:28 PM
Uh... I gave you a link to a post that explains who the person is being spoken to in that passage of Hebrews. So no Brenda... I didn't ignore it.

in your PREVIOUS posts before that (previous). YOU DID NOT....when you said you did in the SAME PART where you posted that link.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 08:32 PM
in your PREVIOUS posts before that (previous). YOU DID NOT....when you said you did in the SAME PART where you posted that link.
Who's on first?

I haven't a clue what you are talking about now. So you are going to have to start over I suppose. I answered the belief question. I answered the how do they question. I answered the crucified again question... so not a clue what you think I didn't answer now.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:34 PM
Uh... I gave you a link to a post that explains who the person is being spoken to in that passage of Hebrews. So no Brenda... I didn't ignore it.

in the Hebrews passage...it's not the point of WHO is being talked to. THE POINT IS that you cannot (it is IMPOSSIBLE) be brought back to repentance (which would be starting all over again) ...why? Because you'd be crucifying Christ ALL OVER AGAIN.

It is showing us that ifwe could lose our salvation, we could never get it backwithout Christ dying again on the cross.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:35 PM
Who's on first?

I haven't a clue what you are talking about now. So you are going to have to start over I suppose. I answered the belief question. I answered the how do they question. I answered the crucified again question... so not a clue what you think I didn't answer now.

arg!!! okay...we should probably stop then because we are not on the same page.

I need a hug (seriously? *L*)

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 08:41 PM
in the Hebrews passage...it's not the point of WHO is being talked to. THE POINT IS that you cannot (it is IMPOSSIBLE) be brought back to repentance (which would be starting all over again) ...why? Because you'd be crucifying Christ ALL OVER AGAIN.

It is showing us that ifwe could lose our salvation, we could never get it backwithout Christ dying again on the cross.Okay... I see now that you are simply saying this is a hypothetical thing and can't really happen and you are basing this on the word "if." Isn't clarification and an actual explanation much better than just going on about you didn't do this and that?

So let's just look on further where the writer revisits this very thing.

Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Does that passage sound like a hypothetical or a very real possibility as the writer explains clearly the result of falling into this state.

If that is a hypothetical in chapter 6... the writer is now lying in Chapter 10 because there is no hypothetical in this warning.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 08:43 PM
arg!!! okay...we should probably stop then because we are not on the same page.

I need a hug (seriously? *L*)
You're doing okay... just slow down and don't always assume that folks understand what you are trying to say. The post that you put above this that I just responded to... you did great explaining what you were saying there. When you do that then it makes discussion very easy. Hang in there... ;)

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:51 PM
Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

head knowledge. This isn't a real conversion, right?

If you go back and read everything you see He is talking about Christ sacrificing once for all (not sacrificing year after year). Isn't that (verse 26) speaking of head knowledge only and not someone who is truly saved?

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:52 PM
You're doing okay... just slow down and don't always assume that folks understand what you are trying to say. The post that you put above this that I just responded to... you did great explaining what you were saying there. When you do that then it makes discussion very easy. Hang in there... ;)


haha yep...that's me. I assumed. I apologize.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 08:56 PM
Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

head knowledge. This isn't a real conversion, right?

If you go back and read everything you see He is talking about Christ sacrificing once for all (not sacrificing year after year). Isn't that (verse 26) speaking of head knowledge only and not someone who is truly saved?

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

I gotta figure they are saved folk at some point in time.

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 08:57 PM
haha yep...that's me. I assumed. I apologize.
Blah... it happens. Don't sweat it! :)

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 08:58 PM
head knowledge...there will be those who hear and understand but do not turn to God. They refuse to accept the truth and be saved. (?)
Just because you understand it doesn't mean you are saved. What they are doing is rejecting Christ.

where is the verse that mentions demons even knowing..and they shiver?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 09:04 PM
head knowledge...there will be those who hear and understand but do not turn to God. They refuse to accept the truth and be saved. (?)
Just because you understand it doesn't mean you are saved. What they are doing is rejecting Christ.

where is the verse that mentions demons even knowing..and they shiver?
That would be in James 2 the passage you are speaking of.

But tell me... do you think that head knowledge describes one that has been Sanctified?

Here is the Greek definition of the word.

1. to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2. to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
1. consecrate things to God
2. dedicate people to God
3. to purify
1. to cleanse externally
2. to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3. to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 09:19 PM
That would be in James 2 the passage you are speaking of.

But tell me... do you think that head knowledge describes one that has been Sanctified?

Here is the Greek definition of the word.

1. to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2. to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
1. consecrate things to God
2. dedicate people to God
3. to purify
1. to cleanse externally
2. to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
3. to purify internally by renewing of the soul

no

29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
what is that speaking of?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 09:34 PM
no

29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
what is that speaking of?

Remember earlier... the writer references those under the Law?

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Now remember the context of this letter and go back to 3 and 4.

Hebrews 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, `THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART; AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS´;
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, `THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.´"
12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;
15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has thus said somewhere concerning the seventh day, "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5 and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 ¶Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.

This is the example that the writers had earlier where we see the same warnings.

They are a perfect type (Hebrews is full of what is called types and shadows) of those that trampled underfoot the grace and mercy of God who delivered them. Knowing what we know of them and how just on the testimony of a few witnesses they were put to death for ignoring the Law of Moses... how much worse will it be for one that is sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ (shown to be the perfect High Priest and the final sacrifice needed... His blood was good once and for all... earlier as well that is clearly laid out in the letter) and yet they insult the Spirit of grace by ignoring and not obeying Christ.

I know this is long so I'll let you read it and then if it doesn't make sense or you have more questions... just ask away.

Brenda_L
Mar 26th 2006, 09:39 PM
I know this is long so I'll let you read it and then if it doesn't make sense or you have more questions... just ask away.

let me get back to this (thanks for posting it). I have to start supper. I'll be back!

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 09:41 PM
I know this is long so I'll let you read it and then if it doesn't make sense or you have more questions... just ask away.

let me get back to this (thanks for posting it). I have to start supper. I'll be back!
Take your time... no problem.

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 10:10 PM
Repent and turn back to God.The problem I see with this answer, PP, is the reason they don't have their salvation is because they DON'T believe anymore (you say)...what is going to cause them to repent and turn back?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 10:16 PM
The problem I see with this answer, PP, is the reason they don't have their salvation is because they DON'T believe anymore (you say)...what is going to cause them to repent and turn back?
Realization, rememberance... a number of reasons perhaps.... insert the prodigal son parable.

slightlypuzzled
Mar 26th 2006, 10:23 PM
You could add a change of heart. Jesus told a parable about a father who told one son to do something, the son said okay; but he did not do it. The father told another son to do something, the son said no; but changed his mind and then did it. Who did the fathers will then? The one who had the change of heart....

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 10:23 PM
Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

head knowledge. This isn't a real conversion, right?

If you go back and read everything you see He is talking about Christ sacrificing once for all (not sacrificing year after year). Isn't that (verse 26) speaking of head knowledge only and not someone who is truly saved?That's exactly what I was going to say! You beat me to it :P

And here's your hug :hug:

Take it easy. You're stating a great case. Believe me..I know it can be a bit of a struggle sometimes trying to understand someone who you don't agree with...especially if you are going in with the intent of convincing them...

Just present your case with as much Scripture as you can...and let God handle the rest. It's His job to convince ... not ours. :)

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 10:24 PM
You could add a change of heart. Jesus told a parable about a father who told one son to do something, the son said okay; but he did not do it. The father told another son to do something, the son said no; but changed his mind and then did it. Who did the fathers will then? The one who had the change of heart....
You bet... that works well also!

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 10:31 PM
Realization, rememberance... a number of reasons perhaps.... insert the prodigal son parable.I believe the prodigal son, just as we would be, was humbled by the Lord .... and I believe the Lord will bring us back to Himself with the same method...If we are unfaithful He remains faithful to His promise to never let us perish. (2Tim 2:12)

humbled
Mar 26th 2006, 10:36 PM
head knowledge...there will be those who hear and understand but do not turn to God. They refuse to accept the truth and be saved. (?)
Just because you understand it doesn't mean you are saved. What they are doing is rejecting Christ.

where is the verse that mentions demons even knowing..and they shiver?
Jam 2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

You've got good recollection of verses...the Holy Spirit is using you well :) Sometimes if I can't remember where a verse is, but I know a few words, I'll do a word search and just do a bit of looking...do you have e-sword (http://e-sword.net/)?

Or just use biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/) or blb.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org/)

They all allow partial searches like that. They're my 3 main resources. God bless!

DeadManWalking
Mar 26th 2006, 10:51 PM
I would like you to consider one little passage: the parable on the hard-hearted servant at the end of Matthew 18. It seems this servant lost something after he received it. What did he loose? Why did he loose it? What warning does Jesus give after the parable? What is the point of the parable?
As much as I hate to admit it, this is one of the strongest arguments for the NOSAS crowd I've ever come across. Not enough to convince me that one can lose their salvation, but a good argument, nonetheless.

One question to anyone who wants to field it: What about those who have turn their backs on God and have returned? Are they saved? What scriptural references are there to support it, if any? And just how many times can someone repeatedly return?

Thanks!

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 11:04 PM
Jam 2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

You've got good recollection of verses...the Holy Spirit is using you well :) Sometimes if I can't remember where a verse is, but I know a few words, I'll do a word search and just do a bit of looking...do you have e-sword (http://e-sword.net/)?

Or just use biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/) or blb.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org/)

They all allow partial searches like that. They're my 3 main resources. God bless!

I suppose maybe you missed this post... so let me repeat it for you in context with that Hebrews 10 passage and you thinking the same thing.

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

I gotta figure they are saved folk at some point in time. Does untrue belief/head knowledge result in sanctification humbled?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 11:05 PM
As much as I hate to admit it, this is one of the strongest arguments for the NOSAS crowd I've ever come across. Not enough to convince me that one can lose their salvation, but a good argument, nonetheless.

One question to anyone who wants to field it: What about those who have turn their backs on God and have returned? Are they saved? What scriptural references are there to support it, if any? And just how many times can someone repeatedly return?

Thanks!
Follow the discussion on Hebrews 10 as well DeadManWalking... curious as to what you think on that.

Whispering Grace
Mar 26th 2006, 11:51 PM
Were the 10,000 current threads on N-OSAS/OSAS not enough? We needed another one? :P

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2006, 11:53 PM
Were the 10,000 current threads on N-OSAS/OSAS not enough? We needed another one? :P
Apparently not! ;)

Brenda_L
Mar 27th 2006, 01:40 AM
Remember earlier... the writer references those under the Law?

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Now remember the context of this letter and go back to 3 and 4.

Hebrews 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, `THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART; AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS´;
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, `THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.´"
12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;
15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has thus said somewhere concerning the seventh day, "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5 and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 ¶Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.

This is the example that the writers had earlier where we see the same warnings.

They are a perfect type (Hebrews is full of what is called types and shadows) of those that trampled underfoot the grace and mercy of God who delivered them. Knowing what we know of them and how just on the testimony of a few witnesses they were put to death for ignoring the Law of Moses... how much worse will it be for one that is sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ (shown to be the perfect High Priest and the final sacrifice needed... His blood was good once and for all... earlier as well that is clearly laid out in the letter) and yet they insult the Spirit of grace by ignoring and not obeying Christ.

I know this is long so I'll let you read it and then if it doesn't make sense or you have more questions... just ask away.

okay, I am back. Funny...when I left early I felt worn out. lol And Sunday is usually a big dinner with desert. I did NOT feeling like doing any of it.

But I made it.

Now about Hebrews...I kept thinking over and over again what you said and the verses you bolded. Like lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. and if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance/ firm until the end.
In the back of my mind I am thinking Apostacy and that this was written to the Christian Jews and something about going back to Judaism and leaving Christ. I remember reading it at the beginning of the bible (NIV) explaining some of it. So I decided to do a search and see what exactly Hebrews was all about.

Check this out (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/goodspeed/ch16.html) and let me know what you think. It explains pretty well what was going on at that time and why things were said to them. Like how they wanted to go back to Judaism...that Christ was the new and perfect covenant...etc. etc. So I can see why he would say things like HOLD FIRM TIL THE END and IF WE HOLD FAST or IN FALLING AWAY.
They were in danger of those very things (correct me if I am wrong).

What I am getting out of this is it doesn't mean if you sin you will lose your salvation...but you will if you completely turn away (apostacy) which you cannot repent from (impossible...you'd be crucifying Christ all over again).

There is no other way but for Christ (I've always believed this.)

Brenda_L
Mar 27th 2006, 01:42 AM
Were the 10,000 current threads on N-OSAS/OSAS not enough? We needed another one? :P

I haven't been around long enough to see all the others LOL
I think I've only come across one or two.

Brenda_L
Mar 27th 2006, 01:44 AM
That's exactly what I was going to say! You beat me to it :P

And here's your hug :hug:

Take it easy. You're stating a great case. Believe me..I know it can be a bit of a struggle sometimes trying to understand someone who you don't agree with...especially if you are going in with the intent of convincing them...

Just present your case with as much Scripture as you can...and let God handle the rest. It's His job to convince ... not ours. :)

:pp :hug: :)

I am not use to doing this!

Brenda_L
Mar 27th 2006, 01:48 AM
Jam 2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

You've got good recollection of verses...the Holy Spirit is using you well :) Sometimes if I can't remember where a verse is, but I know a few words, I'll do a word search and just do a bit of looking...do you have e-sword (http://e-sword.net/)?

Or just use biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/) or blb.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org/)

They all allow partial searches like that. They're my 3 main resources. God bless!


while we were discussing (debating?) i usually use biblegateway to look up verses, but I kept getting an error message (i've NEVER seen that before) and now my dictionary won't even work. It's weird. WHY now? :confused

I've never seen e-sword before (thanks for the link...bookmarked!). I will definately check it out. :)

Brenda_L
Mar 27th 2006, 02:00 AM
I suppose maybe you missed this post... so let me repeat it for you in context with that Hebrews 10 passage and you thinking the same thing.

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

I gotta figure they are saved folk at some point in time. Does untrue belief/head knowledge result in sanctification humbled?
see now this screams apostacy to me. Not a falling away...but a total turn around which you cannot come back from. The part where you'd be crucifying Him all over again.

I fell away for many years...but always in the back of my mind I felt God calling me back. Something bad happened in my life...and then one day I found myself literally in tears and down on my knees pleading with him to help me. I never said the sinner's prayer and asked him to be my savior again. I asked for Him to forgive me, but I didn't ask him to come into my heart and save me all over again like I had done when I was around 13 years old.
I felt like he never really left me all those years either.

I believe He will draw us back to Him if we fall away. And He will do it His way (i did NOT go through a fun time. It was TERRIBLE. But it brought me back to Him...and I still thank Him for allowing me to go through that trial.)

Whispering Grace
Mar 27th 2006, 02:10 AM
I haven't been around long enough to see all the others LOL
I think I've only come across one or two.

I was just being ornery. It's a gift of mine. :D

You are doing a great job in this thread. I have enjoyed your posts. :hug:

Whispering Grace
Mar 27th 2006, 02:12 AM
It is interesting out of the 100,000 N-OSAS/OSAS threads I have read since I have been here, I have yet to change my mind on the issue. :cool:

Brenda_L
Mar 27th 2006, 02:14 AM
I was just being ornery. It's a gift of mine. :D

You are doing a great job in this thread. I have enjoyed your posts. :hug:

If you didn't do this :P then I probably would have taken you seriously. :P
:hug:

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 02:39 AM
okay, I am back. Funny...when I left early I felt worn out. lol And Sunday is usually a big dinner with desert. I did NOT feeling like doing any of it.

But I made it.The big question here... what was for desert... :lol:



Now about Hebrews...I kept thinking over and over again what you said and the verses you bolded. Like lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. and if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance/ firm until the end.
In the back of my mind I am thinking Apostacy and that this was written to the Christian Jews and something about going back to Judaism and leaving Christ. I remember reading it at the beginning of the bible (NIV) explaining some of it. So I decided to do a search and see what exactly Hebrews was all about.

Check this out (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/goodspeed/ch16.html) and let me know what you think. It explains pretty well what was going on at that time and why things were said to them. Like how they wanted to go back to Judaism...that Christ was the new and perfect covenant...etc. etc. So I can see why he would say things like HOLD FIRM TIL THE END and IF WE HOLD FAST or IN FALLING AWAY.
They were in danger of those very things (correct me if I am wrong).They were as even Gentiles in Galatians were in danger of doing the same thing because folks were teaching them that to be saved one had to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses.

In the Hebrews letter there are those that believe it talking about going back to Judaism etc. but the text within that letter doesn't tell us that this is the case exactly. When you read the last part of chapter 5 and that first part of chapter six you see that the writer is writing them more along the lines of them simply falling into a state of complacency. They should have been teachers by now and mature, able to discern good and evil. But here they were... back on milk once again... stuck on the elemental things. They needed to move on.


What I am getting out of this is it doesn't mean if you sin you will lose your salvation...but you will if you completely turn away (apostacy) which you cannot repent from (impossible...you'd be crucifying Christ all over again).

There is no other way but for Christ (I've always believed this.)Well it is that sin that was leading them in that backward slide. It is spoken of too much in that passage. For example... chapter 3 and 4 that I posted speaks of their disobedience. Then you can look at other things like...

Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Hebrews 12:14 ¶Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

But you are right in that the writer is speaking of apostasy. That is why I was telling you before that this is not just speaking of the average Joe Schmucky that has just become a Christian and yet because he has no root he falls away. That person is certainly able to come back to the Lord, if he was ever there in the first place. He is not an apostate... he knew very little and certainly didn't fit the person as described in chapters 5 and six... one who was mature and even to the point that they should be teaching.

The person that was at that point of maturity and they slide back beyond that elemental state that the guys this writer is speaking of... this is whom this warning is too.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 02:42 AM
see now this screams apostacy to me. Not a falling away...but a total turn around which you cannot come back from. The part where you'd be crucifying Him all over again.

I fell away for many years...but always in the back of my mind I felt God calling me back. Something bad happened in my life...and then one day I found myself literally in tears and down on my knees pleading with him to help me. I never said the sinner's prayer and asked him to be my savior again. I asked for Him to forgive me, but I didn't ask him to come into my heart and save me all over again like I had done when I was around 13 years old.
I felt like he never really left me all those years either.

I believe He will draw us back to Him if we fall away. And He will do it His way (i did NOT go through a fun time. It was TERRIBLE. But it brought me back to Him...and I still thank Him for allowing me to go through that trial.)I don't disagree with you. And your testimony could be like many other testimonies out there... myself included. I think the drawing is there for most folks. That doesn't mean I think you were saved... nor do I think I was during that period. But no... I don't think the drawing stopped. That is simply what the Holy Spirit does to everyone. He convicts the world of sin. We had enough knowledge where that conviction was very real during that period of rebellion.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 02:44 AM
It is interesting out of the 100,000 N-OSAS/OSAS threads I have read since I have been here, I have yet to change my mind on the issue. :cool:
That's because you're just as hardheaded as me and simply on the wrong side of the issue... :P

ILUVLIGHT
Mar 27th 2006, 03:05 AM
Hi Peter;

Exactly. So since it isn't speaking of a single gift... and yet one can show Scripturally where a gift was in fact revoked... is it then reasonable to consider that folks are just not understanding what the passage is actually saying?
But you haven't shown me any such thing.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 03:09 AM
Hi Peter;

But you haven't shown me any such thing.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike
You didn't ask and haven't much participated in the discussion eh? But keep reading. Ignore any typo's too as hard as that might be for you.

excubitor
Mar 27th 2006, 03:17 AM
I have been brought up in the protestant tradition but in my private Bible studies I can see that the reformation got this OSAS doctrine, along with many others abysmally wrong. They corrected teachings of the Catholic church which just did not need to be corrected in order to make a greater delineation between the two faiths.

Calvin tried to put the doctrines into a logical human system with his systematic theology where everything sort of lines up. Of course therefore it is quite wrong in parts. John Wesley did a great job of trying to patch up the errors and bring some balance back into theology. From him the Methodist tradition sprang. Sadly this Methodist branch of Christianity is not doing too well, particularly in Australia where the Methodist church got swallowed up in the monstrosity of the Uniting Church. The fact that those Methodists agreed to it is a testimony to the typical careless neglectful state of Christianity today.

Unfortunately if you go to a pastor and ask his advice he is going to preach OSAS because that is the party line of the doctrine of the church.
Even if his own personal convictions support NOSAS he will still be forced to give the party line. Sadly most protestant flavours of Christianity follow the Calvinist tradition so your pastors are more likely than not going to teach you OSAS.

What does your Bible say though?
Firstly, leading statements are made that Romans 6:23; 11:29; Ephesians 2:9 are unretractable promises. In fact they do not say any such thing.
Romans 6:23 and Ephesians 2:8 says that Eternal life is a gift. This does not in any way say that the gift cannot be taken back. If a father gives his son a bike which he neglects, leaving it out in the rain, knocking over old ladies with, will he not confiscate it? I grew up believing that

Romans 11:29 says that God in no way regrets giving his gifts to his children and always ensures that a remnant of his people can receive them even though many of his children a cut off the branch. How can Phreaky conclude that this is an irretractable gift when in the scriptures preceding it describe the branches being cut off the vine if they did not believe?
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Notice this threat is directed to the Christians in the Roman church. How then could we possibly conclude that there is no possibility that we could be cut off the vine. In this passage God is saying that God did not spare the natural branches (bloodline Jews) and because of their belief they were broken off the vine. Paul is warning the Gentile Christians who God had grafted into the vine that the very same thing could happen to them. This is in direct opposition to OSAS teaching which says that a Christian can never be separated from the vine.

The following scripture which Phreaky quoted in no way indicates that these promises are made to those who reject Christ.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by [3] an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

In fact this entire passage is directed to show the assurance of God’s promises to those who persist in the faith
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Implication being that the slothful who do not patiently continue through faith to follow the example of the persistant saints will not inherit the promises.

The passage says that those Christians who do not bring forth fruit which should accompany salvation are rejected even though Paul is convinced that this is not the case with the Hebrews who have shown forth fruits of good works and labours of love.
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation (works and labours of love vs. 10), though we thus speak.

In fact the passage deliberately says that those who fall away from the faith cannot be restored to salvation
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Isn’t it typical that the very scriptures which OSAS proponents advance to support their case, in fact clearly refute their arguments when read in the complete context of the passage. Of course this will require us to simply believe the words which we read and throw out a lot of the doctrinal baggage we carry around courtesy of the systematic theology of Calvin. Anyone with honesty in their heart needs to wipe their preconceptions clean as I have done and work from the ground up, working only from the scriptures. Put aside all your commentaries. Stay off the internet and sit down with your KJV with prayerful honesty before the Lord and these important questions will come to be plain in your mind.

However if you stay immersed in the swill of doctrinal confusion which stains Christendom then you will be led into a false sense of security which may lead to your destruction.

theWord
Mar 27th 2006, 06:20 AM
Was doing some reading on these particular scriptures in the book of Hebrews, I agree with the following:

Fall away means "to fall away utterly" according to Lenski. Dr. Kent says that "fall way" can "hardly refer to sins committed through weakness, for which Scripture gives many examples of restoration in both Old Testament and New Testament...Hence the normal understanding of these descriptive terms in the light of the author's own usage elsewhere in the epistle, is of those who are regenerated and then repudiate Christ and forsake Him." These are true, real, possessing, genuine, and 100% Christians. They fell utterly from the saving grace of God. This is not a mere loss of rewards, or personal piety. This fall was not caused by some weakness of the flesh or an adulterous afair. This sin was the rejection of Christ and all that was accomplished on the cross of Calvary.

Clearly speaking of an apostate. Not a backslider. If your struggling with some sin and with your walk, does not mean you have lost your salvation and are hopeless. When you fall down you turn to God and get back up. Solomon said a just man falls 7 times, and rises again (Proverbs 24:16).

ikester7579
Mar 27th 2006, 06:31 AM
Humbled already answered that question. Please go back and look.

Humble is on my ignore list. Which is an option in your control panel that makes their posts inviso to the member who chooses it.

humbled
Mar 27th 2006, 06:35 AM
Humble is on my ignore list. Which is an option in your control panel that makes their posts inviso to the member who chooses it.Too bad you decided to insult and throw around accusations that I'm not a Christian then refuse to apologize, but rather put me on ignore, eh?

Wish I knew what I did that was reason to be ignored...you were the one who was the aggressor!

Diggindeeper
Mar 27th 2006, 08:04 AM
I will address this mainly to Jesus phreak, who started this thread. I, too, have discussed this with MY Pastor, a man who really studies, really digs deep into the Word, but whom I differ in regards to OSAS. I have told him there is simply too many "ifs" in the Bible to believe OSAS. For example:

John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

John 12:26, "If any man serve me, let him follow me"

John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

John 15:6, "If a man abide NOT in me,he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into a fire, and they are burned."

Well, I could go on and on. But what I want to point out is that although my Pastor and I don't agree on this, it does not mean that we don't have appreciation for each other. My pastor knows where my husband and I stand, but seems to still have the utmost respect for us. Also, after having numerous talks about this issue, he has changed some of his viewpoint! He used to say, "Once a person is saved, he will go to heaven whether he wants to or not." But he has apologized from the pulpit about that! He is beginning to see that a person can become apostate to the point of turning his back on Jesus Christ.

And I have a question. Even tho', lets say, something really bad happens, like he is in a car wreck that turns him into a vegetable, and he is not ABLE to decide to come back to Christ. And to make matters worse, lets say he was with a person with whom he was in an adulterous affair when the wreck happened. Even worse, the Holy Spirit had been dealing with him, convicting him of his sin, and pleading for him to come back to the Lord, but he never did. Now he can't.

Can anyone show scripture that says he is still saved? Even tho' he was WILLFULLY sinning, feeling convicted, but choosing to continue the affair while turning away from God? Saying without words, "I choose my sinful life over and above Jesus Christ. Maybe SOME DAY I will come back and walk with the Lord, but not at this time." What if he was KILLED in the wreck?

No, there are just too many "ifs" in the Bible! According to John 3:19-21, that man loved darkness better than light, and that IS THE condemnation.
We will not go to heaven whether we want to or not. And, the blame could not be laid on Jesus for allowing us to "lose" our salvation. Some people willingly choose NOT to continue on with the Lord. They love darkness better than light.

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 11:21 AM
Humble is on my ignore list. Which is an option in your control panel that makes their posts inviso to the member who chooses it.

How niice and Christ-like of Christians to ignore other Christians. Does NOSAS teach you that?

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 01:36 PM
A member has the right and the option of using the ignore function if that is what they choose to do. If a person passes off a post for their own answer and that happens to be a post from someone on a block... they can only tell the person. Granted, PM would likely be a better plan but there is no call for bashing a person for putting someone on ignore. So everyone can stop that stuff right now and talk about the subject.

humbled
Mar 27th 2006, 01:37 PM
And I have a question. Even tho', lets say, something really bad happens, like he is in a car wreck that turns him into a vegetable, and he is not ABLE to decide to come back to Christ. And to make matters worse, lets say he was with a person with whom he was in an adulterous affair when the wreck happened. Even worse, the Holy Spirit had been dealing with him, convicting him of his sin, and pleading for him to come back to the Lord, but he never did. Now he can't.

Can anyone show scripture that says he is still saved? Even tho' he was WILLFULLY sinning, feeling convicted, but choosing to continue the affair while turning away from God? Saying without words, "I choose my sinful life over and above Jesus Christ. Maybe SOME DAY I will come back and walk with the Lord, but not at this time." What if he was KILLED in the wreck?

No, there are just too many "ifs" in the Bible! According to John 3:19-21, that man loved darkness better than light, and that IS THE condemnation.
We will not go to heaven whether we want to or not. And, the blame could not be laid on Jesus for allowing us to "lose" our salvation. Some people willingly choose NOT to continue on with the Lord. They love darkness better than light.Hi there :)

I believe too many people are starting off from the wrong point of view... we don't choose Christ. HE chooses US.
Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

1 Chronicles 16:13 O seed of Israel His servant,Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!

Isaiah 49:7 Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and its Holy One,To the despised One,To the One abhorred by the nation,To the Servant of rulers," Kings will see and arise,Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."

Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth;Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Colossians 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning

2 Timothy 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Therefore...if God chooses us in the first place, then we are going to be KEPT by Him who chose us. The few times where God is commanding us to choose him...(Josh 24:15 for instance) are imperative. And an imperative command is not shown to us as something we CAN do, but something we OUGHT to do. Man is by nature unwilling to choose God because he loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

The verse you referred to..John 3:18...speaks of their condemnation,
John 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
Look at what it says...he who believes is NOT condemned...but he who does not believe is condemned ALREADY. That they don't believe shows their state of condemnation, I believe. They are not chosen by God.

I am sure you will show a few passages where God tells us to choose...or tells us to believe... and I challenge you to look here (http://blb.org) and find out if they are in the imperative tense...a command. And understand that a command from God is a Law....and then look here...
Romans 3:19-20 But we know that whatever things the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law; so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be under judgment before God, (20) because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.
Why would every mouth be stopped? Because man is unwilling...nay, incapable... of obeying God's Law well enough. The Law shows man his weakness so that he cries out to God for mercy just as the publican in Luke 18. If the Lord has chosen someone, they will come because the Holy Spirit changes their heart and gives them a new heart (Ezek 11:19).

Remember this passage as well...

John 6:36-44 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe. (37) All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out. (38) For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
(41) Then the Jews murmured about Him, because He said, I am the bread which came down from Heaven. (42) And they said, Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How now does this One say, I have come down from Heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said to them, Do not murmur with one another. (44) No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Anyone who comes has been drawn by the Father...and they show they have been drawn by withstanding to the end...by enduring. If they do not endure, it shows they were never chosen in the first place, but were likely "playing religion". It shows they never had a changed heart to begin with.

Remember...you can only be born again ONCE. There isn't a passage that will tell you to be born again...again.

Apostasy shows that person never had a truly saving faith.

God bless

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 01:48 PM
Hi there :)

I believe too many people are starting off from the wrong point of view... we don't choose Christ. HE chooses US.
Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

1 Chronicles 16:13 O seed of Israel His servant,Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!

Isaiah 49:7 Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and its Holy One,To the despised One,To the One abhorred by the nation,To the Servant of rulers," Kings will see and arise,Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."

Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth;Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Colossians 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning

2 Timothy 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Therefore...if God chooses us in the first place, then we are going to be KEPT by Him who chose us. The few times where God is commanding us to choose him...(Josh 24:15 for instance) are imperative. And an imperative command is not shown to us as something we CAN do, but something we OUGHT to do. Man is by nature unwilling to choose God because he loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

The verse you referred to..John 3:18...speaks of their condemnation,
John 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
Look at what it says...he who believes is NOT condemned...but he who does not believe is condemned ALREADY. That they don't believe shows their state of condemnation, I believe. They are not chosen by God.

I am sure you will show a few passages where God tells us to choose...or tells us to believe... and I challenge you to look here (http://blb.org) and find out if they are in the imperative tense...a command. And understand that a command from God is a Law....and then look here...
Romans 3:19-20 But we know that whatever things the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law; so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be under judgment before God, (20) because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.
Why would every mouth be stopped? Because man is unwilling...nay, incapable... of obeying God's Law well enough. The Law shows man his weakness so that he cries out to God for mercy just as the publican in Luke 18. If the Lord has chosen someone, they will come because the Holy Spirit changes their heart and gives them a new heart (Ezek 11:19).

Remember this passage as well...

John 6:36-44 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe. (37) All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out. (38) For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
(41) Then the Jews murmured about Him, because He said, I am the bread which came down from Heaven. (42) And they said, Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How now does this One say, I have come down from Heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said to them, Do not murmur with one another. (44) No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Anyone who comes has been drawn by the Father...and they show they have been drawn by withstanding to the end...by enduring. If they do not endure, it shows they were never chosen in the first place, but were likely "playing religion". It shows they never had a changed heart to begin with.

Remember...you can only be born again ONCE. There isn't a passage that will tell you to be born again...again.

Apostasy shows that person never had a truly saving faith.

God bless

Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


So help me understand how you view that passage. You probably just missed it the last couple of times I posted and asked. Are you saying that someone without saving faith can still be sanctified?

humbled
Mar 27th 2006, 01:51 PM
Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


So help me understand how you view that passage. You probably just missed it the last couple of times I posted and asked. Are you saying that someone without saving faith can still be sanctified?I saw it...but life kinda took control last night :rolleyes: .. you know. (and I just plain forgot about it this morning :P)

I've started something, and I'll try to finish it up today if I have the time :)

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 01:57 PM
I saw it...but life kinda took control last night :rolleyes: .. you know. (and I just plain forgot about it this morning :P)

I've started something, and I'll try to finish it up today if I have the time :)
Cool... life happens sure enough!!! Look forward to seeing how you try to pull this one off! :lol:

pnewton
Mar 27th 2006, 02:22 PM
It is interesting out of the 100,000 N-OSAS/OSAS threads I have read since I have been here, I have yet to change my mind on the issue. :cool:I wonder if anyone has. More to the point, I wonder why we feel so compelled to try to change each others minds.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 02:27 PM
There have been folks that have changed their minds on this issue. Some have made that public and some choose not to make it public. Now.. if you are doing this looking for a headcount... good luck! :D Those changes can be slow going sure enough!

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 02:30 PM
I wonder if anyone has. More to the point, I wonder why we feel so compelled to try to change each others minds.
Because there are those that really do teach God's grace as license. And when you talk to them about that and that security issue is brought up... out comes the POTS folk and whatever other version of OSAS is out there. Tis the nature of the beast I suppose.

chal
Mar 27th 2006, 02:59 PM
I wonder if anyone has. More to the point, I wonder why we feel so compelled to try to change each others minds.
I don't see it as trying to change minds, but trying to present a clear scriptural reason, from a different perspective. Some (on both sides of the issue) may be in it for a power trip, but not everyone is. Some (again, on both sides of the issue) are trying to save thier brothers and sisters from error. If we approach it in that fashion, as I have seen some do and some not do, we can only benefit from the discussion. If we don't some moderator is stuck with the task of cleaning up a mess of virtual blood.

This particular topic (*.sas) comes up so often, it sounds like an echo sometimes. I'm starting to think a more appropriate acronym would be SOSO (Same Old Same Old).

katiekristen
Mar 27th 2006, 03:10 PM
I would think that if you cursed God... that falls into the catagory of a bad thing don't you agree? For reference there... you might read Job.

One loses it because they harden their hearts... you can reference Hebrews for that.

As to how many times... It would be best if it is never.

How bad... depends on what you mean by bad I suppose. Some simply walk away because of persecutions and they couldn't deal with it. They weren't firmly rooted and they fell away. Some, like the children of Israel as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10 or Hebrews 3 and 4... they were pretty bad.

How good... it isn't about good because that too is dependent upon a persons definition. But read 2 Peter 1:1-11. There you will find the true way to biblical eternal security. Do those things and you will never stumble.

Did I get everything? I think I did!

with respect, you covered it all but answered nothing. how bad do you have to be to lose it? we'd have to be very specific here to be sure of our salvation. it has to be by grace or none of us would ever make it!

slightlypuzzled
Mar 27th 2006, 03:12 PM
While not having changed my mind, I have learned a lot, especially how the other side views life in the Spirit. But, that 'other side' is also composed of my brothers and sisters in Christ. So, I must remember to treat all with love, and not lose myself in the argument. ;)

slightlypuzzled
Mar 27th 2006, 03:18 PM
with respect, you covered it all but answered nothing. how bad do you have to be to lose it? we'd have to be very specific here to be sure of our salvation. it has to be by grace or none of us would ever make it!

Why do we have to be specific? If you are actively trying to grow and seeking the Kingdom of God, you have nothing to worry about. If you are not, and are actively doing what you know is wrong.....the answer should be obvious to all. If you are concerned enough to ask and seek God's answer on this, then you are not lost.

Owen
Mar 27th 2006, 03:42 PM
Why do we have to be specific? If you are actively trying to grow and seeking the Kingdom of God, you have nothing to worry about. If you are not, and are actively doing what you know is wrong.....the answer should be obvious to all. If you are concerned enough to ask and seek God's answer on this, then you are not lost.

Amen SP :)

It is like asking how many times you can insult a patient person before he gets mad and then saying you have no certainty whether he will get mad at you or not because you don't know the exact amount. One can be assured that he won't get mad if you don't insult, but if you do, then apologize, ask for forgiveness, and promise to try to not to do it again, and he won't get mad because he will see you are not trying to be insulting to him.

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 05:08 PM
I will address this mainly to Jesus phreak, who started this thread. I, too, have discussed this with MY Pastor, a man who really studies, really digs deep into the Word, but whom I differ in regards to OSAS. I have told him there is simply too many "ifs" in the Bible to believe OSAS. For example:

John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

John 12:26, "If any man serve me, let him follow me"

John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

John 15:6, "If a man abide NOT in me,he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into a fire, and they are burned."

Well, I could go on and on. But what I want to point out is that although my Pastor and I don't agree on this, it does not mean that we don't have appreciation for each other. My pastor knows where my husband and I stand, but seems to still have the utmost respect for us. Also, after having numerous talks about this issue, he has changed some of his viewpoint! He used to say, "Once a person is saved, he will go to heaven whether he wants to or not." But he has apologized from the pulpit about that! He is beginning to see that a person can become apostate to the point of turning his back on Jesus Christ.

And I have a question. Even tho', lets say, something really bad happens, like he is in a car wreck that turns him into a vegetable, and he is not ABLE to decide to come back to Christ. And to make matters worse, lets say he was with a person with whom he was in an adulterous affair when the wreck happened. Even worse, the Holy Spirit had been dealing with him, convicting him of his sin, and pleading for him to come back to the Lord, but he never did. Now he can't.

Can anyone show scripture that says he is still saved? Even tho' he was WILLFULLY sinning, feeling convicted, but choosing to continue the affair while turning away from God? Saying without words, "I choose my sinful life over and above Jesus Christ. Maybe SOME DAY I will come back and walk with the Lord, but not at this time." What if he was KILLED in the wreck?

No, there are just too many "ifs" in the Bible! According to John 3:19-21, that man loved darkness better than light, and that IS THE condemnation.
We will not go to heaven whether we want to or not. And, the blame could not be laid on Jesus for allowing us to "lose" our salvation. Some people willingly choose NOT to continue on with the Lord. They love darkness better than light.

NOSAS adherents seem to thrive on hypothetical cases to prove their view points. What if a disobedient child or wife who refuses to submit to the authority God has given her saved husband should suddenly die in a car wreck and become vegetables for the rest of their lives? To make things worse the Holy Spirit who has consistently been dealing with them to return to Christ and to abide in Him tries very hard to convince them to confess AND abandon their sinful rebellion. Oh! but wait a minute . . . Disobedience isn't as bad as living in an adulterous affair with someone else. Is adultery any worse than disobedience? How does God view disobedience?

Samuel said, Has the Lord as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim (household good luck images). Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you from being king. (1 Samuel 15:22-23).
There seems to be no difference whatsoever between a person who turns his back on Christ and begins to bow down before idols to worship them and a disobedient child, wife or husband. A single sin of disobedience is very much like witchcraft and stubbornness is just as bad as bowing down to Buddha, Krishna, or any other idol. Saul tried to offer something to God which He said needed to be put to death. Many Christians are continually doing the very same thing when they try to please God by doing everything in their own power to remain saved and to appease God in trying to convince Him not to take His gift of salvation back. Instead of relying completely on Him they rely on their own efforts to remain faithful to Him. Instead of putting to death their own fleshly (soulish) self-reliance they keep it alive hoping to remain faithful until the end. Imagine the uproar if we were to tell women they were into witchcraft whenever they refuse to submit to their saved husbands. What if they were killed in a vehicle accident and turned into vegetables? Will they make it to heaven? Have they lost their salvation? Can anyone provide some Scripture that establishes without any doubt that they are still saved? What is worse -adultery or disobedience (akin to witchcraft and idolatry)?

Hypothetical examples such as these makes one wonder whether the NOSAS adherents really know what salvation is all about and whether they know what it means to be a Christian. I get the idea that they are daily living in fear of losing their salvation. It is not fear that should motivate Christians to live a life holy/separated unto the Lord but the mercies of God should encourage us to make a decisive dedication of our bodies to Christ (Romans 12: 1). I have asked the following questions on several occasions in the past and to this date not a single NOSAS adherent has ventured to answer me. So let me ask you those very same questions and see whether you are prepared to answer them.

Would you deliberately WANT to lose your salvation?
Would you deliberately WANT to renounce Jesus Christ, turn your back on Him and decide never to follow him again?
Should your answer be "yes" do you think you would deliberately renounce Christ because you have never really been saved?
Should your answer be "no" why do you think other truly saved saints of God would deliberately WANT to renounce Jesus Christ, turn their backs on Him and never follow Him again?
Do you see yourself as someone who may lose his salvation or do you see only other saints as candidates for losing their salvation?
How many times can a saint lose his salvation and how many times can he be saved after the loss of his salvation or is it tickets for the one who once loses his salvation?


Tom

pnewton
Mar 27th 2006, 05:09 PM
I don't see it as trying to change minds, but trying to present a clear scriptural reason, from a different perspective. Some (on both sides of the issue) may be in it for a power trip, but not everyone is. Thank you for the reminder. Unfortunately my experience apart from this board has not been very pleasant when it comes to this topic.

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 06:15 PM
Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


So help me understand how you view that passage. You probably just missed it the last couple of times I posted and asked. Are you saying that someone without saving faith can still be sanctified?

I doubt whether you really want to understand this passage of Scripture and all the others which you've used so profusely to prove your view. These passages and many others have already been explained in full in many other threads on this board and still you persist in using them to substantiate your view of the loss of salvation. What I cannot understand is that the NOSAS camp suggests that Scripture contradicts itself. Despite the many promises in Scripture that God has already given eternal life to those who believe in His Son and that no one will ever be able to remove or wrench them out of His hands, NOSAS carries on regardless, propagating their view that a saint can lose his/her salvation.

The author is not speaking about the ordinary sins most saints may fall into at some stage of their lives but the deliberate defection from the faith. He had in mind the Old Testament teaching about the sins of presumption which was not covered by the sacrificial provisions of the Mosaic Law (Numbers 15:29-31). It is obvious that when and if a saint apostasizes from the faith he cannot make any appeal to the complete efficacy of Christ's sacrifice for sins. Therefore there is "no sacrifice for sins left" for such an apostate. He who renounces the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice for sins cannot expect to be protected from God's retributive judgment by raging fire. However, is the fire mentioned here the fire of hell? In many passages in the Old Testament God's anger and wrath are often likened to a burning fire.

Isaiah 9:18-19

For wickedness burns like a fire; it devours the briers and thorns, and it kindles in the thickets of the forest; they roll upward in a column of smoke.
Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts the land is darkened and burned up, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother.
Isaiah 10:17

And the Light of Israel shall become a fire and His Holy One a flame, and it will burn and devour [the Assyrian's] thorns and briers in one day.
Even the author of the epistle to the Hebrews uses the intense metaphor of God's wrath by admitting that "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). Fire is also used in 1 Corinthians 3:15 as a means of righteous retribution (judgment).

But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.
There is nothing in the text to suggest that the author was speaking of the fire of hell.

Tom

JesusPhreak27
Mar 27th 2006, 06:58 PM
ProjectPeter Said: I would think that if you cursed God... that falls into the catagory of a bad thing don't you agree? For reference there... you might read Job.

One loses it because they harden their hearts... you can reference Hebrews for that.

As to how many times... It would be best if it is never.

How bad... depends on what you mean by bad I suppose. Some simply walk away because of persecutions and they couldn't deal with it. They weren't firmly rooted and they fell away. Some, like the children of Israel as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10 or Hebrews 3 and 4... they were pretty bad.

How good... it isn't about good because that too is dependent upon a persons definition. But read 2 Peter 1:1-11. There you will find the true way to biblical eternal security. Do those things and you will never stumble.

Did I get everything? I think I did!


Now I have a question about the above bolded statement. Just recently while my wife was in the hospital, one night I hit my breaking point, I was worried about her and my kids were sared and well being kids......so they were getting my nerves and I swear as soon as I walked in the door I hit my knees and cursed at God telling Him to do whatever it was He was going to do because I just couldnt handle it anymore. I told Him if He wanted to punish someone why was it my wife when she has been a faithful serveant her whole life and not me since I was the one that turned my back on Him. I threw my Bible at the wall and had some choice words for God because I was SO frustrated with what was going on.

Now does that mean that I am in danger of losing my salvation?

ikester7579
Mar 27th 2006, 07:21 PM
How niice and Christ-like of Christians to ignore other Christians. Does NOSAS teach you that?

Tom

Is there a problem trying to avoid a fight that someone is persistent in doing, by making every debate personal? I could just let it go on until we both ended up in the cooler, and what would that prove? Nothing.

By the way, what business is it of yours? Is bullying something osas taught you?

Note to mod: As long as personally designed responses stay up, that have nothing to do with the thread subject, and I have to respond to them. They will get out of control. Personal responses that go beyond trying to get someone to see truth. But to attack another member, when someone is trying to avoid it (ignore them), actually does the opposite.

So what's the point in trying? And why the option to ignore when someone is still allowed to insult you behind your back? I did it so the fighting would stop.

mikebr
Mar 27th 2006, 07:23 PM
Now I have a question about the above bolded statement. Just recently while my wife was in the hospital, one night I hit my breaking point, I was worried about her and my kids were sared and well being kids......so they were getting my nerves and I swear as soon as I walked in the door I hit my knees and cursed at God telling Him to do whatever it was He was going to do because I just couldnt handle it anymore. I told Him if He wanted to punish someone why was it my wife when she has been a faithful serveant her whole life and not me since I was the one that turned my back on Him. I threw my Bible at the wall and had some choice words for God because I was SO frustrated with what was going on.

Now does that mean that I am in danger of losing my salvation?

Sounds like you were being honest to me. Reckon God will punish you for being honest? :hmm:


I've been thinking about this all weekend and I've come to the following conclusion.

Nosasers-are either afraid or prideful. Fear and pride are the basis for all religions. The trust in their ability to stay saved-Pride or they are afraid that Christ's ability to keep them saved is unlikely.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 07:37 PM
with respect, you covered it all but answered nothing. how bad do you have to be to lose it? we'd have to be very specific here to be sure of our salvation. it has to be by grace or none of us would ever make it!Well if you want to be specific then stop sinning and do as you ought. No counter needed.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 07:50 PM
NOSAS adherents seem to thrive on hypothetical cases to prove their view points. And you know Tom... there have been plenty of Scripture posted from NOSAS folk in this thread. So I surely do hope you can do much better than this eh?

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 08:01 PM
And you know Tom... there have been plenty of Scripture posted from NOSAS folk in this thread. So I surely do hope you can do much better than this eh?

Posting Scripture is one thing and fairly easy to do. Correct exegeses of Scripture is quite another thing which requires an in depth study of the word so that we may interpret Scripture with Scripture. By the way I merely answered Diggendeeper's hypothetical example with just another hypothetical example. Care to comment on 1 Samuel 15?

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 08:02 PM
I doubt whether you really want to understand this passage of Scripture and all the others which you've used so profusely to prove your view. These passages and many others have already been explained in full in many other threads on this board and still you persist in using them to substantiate your view of the loss of salvation.Dang Tom... and I just responded to the post where your accusation was that us NOSAS folk like to use a lot of hypothetical stuff. Now we get ragged for using Scripture... cool!


What I cannot understand is that the NOSAS camp suggests that Scripture contradicts itself. Despite the many promises in Scripture that God has already given eternal life to those who believe in His Son and that no one will ever be able to remove or wrench them out of His hands, NOSAS carries on regardless, propagating their view that a saint can lose his/her salvation.And there is Scripture that shows one can... so I suppose us NOSAS folks would say you are suggesting that the Scripture contradicts itself! So I suppose that don't go anywhere either!


The author is not speaking about the ordinary sins most saints may fall into at some stage of their lives but the deliberate defection from the faith. He had in mind the Old Testament teaching about the sins of presumption which was not covered by the sacrificial provisions of the Mosaic Law (Numbers 15:29-31). It is obvious that when and if a saint apostasizes from the faith he cannot make any appeal to the complete efficacy of Christ's sacrifice for sins. Therefore there is "no sacrifice for sins left" for such an apostate. He who renounces the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice for sins cannot expect to be protected from God's retributive judgment by raging fire. However, is the fire mentioned here the fire of hell? In many passages in the Old Testament God's anger and wrath are often likened to a burning fire.

Isaiah 9:18-19
For wickedness burns like a fire; it devours the briers and thorns, and it kindles in the thickets of the forest; they roll upward in a column of smoke.
Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts the land is darkened and burned up, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother.Isaiah 10:17
And the Light of Israel shall become a fire and His Holy One a flame, and it will burn and devour [the Assyrian's] thorns and briers in one day.Even the author of the epistle to the Hebrews uses the intense metaphor of God's wrath by admitting that "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). Fire is also used in 1 Corinthians 3:15 as a means of righteous retribution (judgment).
But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.There is nothing in the text to suggest that the author was speaking of the fire of hell.

TomAnd that right there... is reading your doctrine into Scripture. That last verse should put it to rest for those who can understand Scripture without falling into the same trap.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

The ones shrink back to destruction.... those with faith to the preservation of the soul.

It is speaking of hell and speaking of it clearly unless of course you can find one of them there passages that speak of eternity with the Lord as destruction... I wish you luck on that though.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 08:05 PM
Now I have a question about the above bolded statement. Just recently while my wife was in the hospital, one night I hit my breaking point, I was worried about her and my kids were sared and well being kids......so they were getting my nerves and I swear as soon as I walked in the door I hit my knees and cursed at God telling Him to do whatever it was He was going to do because I just couldnt handle it anymore. I told Him if He wanted to punish someone why was it my wife when she has been a faithful serveant her whole life and not me since I was the one that turned my back on Him. I threw my Bible at the wall and had some choice words for God because I was SO frustrated with what was going on.

Now does that mean that I am in danger of losing my salvation?It sure enough wasn't a very smart thing to do... you do know who God is right?

So it is my hope that you confessed that sin and repented. If not... let me go on a limb here and highly recommend you do so.

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 08:07 PM
Is there a problem trying to avoid a fight that someone is persistent in doing, by making every debate personal? I could just let it go on until we both ended up in the cooler, and what would that prove? Nothing.

By the way, what business is it of yours? Is bullying something osas taught you?

Note to mod: As long as personally designed responses stay up, that have nothing to do with the thread subject, and I have to respond to them. They will get out of control. Personal responses that go beyond trying to get someone to see truth. But to attack another member, when someone is trying to avoid it (ignore them), actually does the opposite.

So what's the point in trying? And why the option to ignore when someone is still allowed to insult you behind your back? I did it so the fighting would stop.

Pipedown Ikester. I merely asked a question which you haven't answered. However, I still think it is wrong to ignore fellow-Christians just because they do not agree with you. Why would you want to ignore anyone when you are so sure that you have the truth and nothing but the truth packaged in your head. Ignoring others will not benefit them at all, especially when they need to hear the truth.

Tom

Owen
Mar 27th 2006, 08:13 PM
Pipedown Ikester. I merely asked a question which you haven't answered. However, I still think it is wrong to ignore fellow-Christians just because they do not agree with you. Why would you want to ignore anyone when you are so sure that you have the truth and nothing but the truth packaged in your head. Ignoring others will not benefit them at all, especially when they need to hear the truth.

Let me just take up ikester's defense and say the reason I have put people on ignore is because they are down right offensive and insulting towards me. It isn't a matter of truth but it is a matter of not putting up with constant insults. Getting rid of temptation.

I figure that is why ikester is doing it to.

If someone called your phone constantly insulting you, the next time you saw it was him calling, would you pick it up? I wouldn't.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 08:14 PM
Sounds like you were being honest to me. Reckon God will punish you for being honest? :hmm:If your heart is in cursing God then yes... He will.



I've been thinking about this all weekend and I've come to the following conclusion.

Nosasers-are either afraid or prideful. Fear and pride are the basis for all religions. The trust in their ability to stay saved-Pride or they are afraid that Christ's ability to keep them saved is unlikely.That's nice. Not judgmental either and the grace just emanated through the words. So would you like me to say that was well said Mike?

hydrathhu
Mar 27th 2006, 08:18 PM
I praise God for his gift of salvation he has given me.
:pp:pray:



The Holy Bible states:bible:

ROMANOS 11
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

It is not mine to maintain but his to give, and is it impossible to return.:thumbsup:


The Holy Bible states:bible:

SALMOS 37:24
24 "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord UPHOLDETH HIM WITH HIS HAND."

The Lord will hold me when I fail, when I turn on him.:cool:


The Holy Bible states:bible:

HEBREOS 13:5

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


The Lord will NEVER leave me or forsake me, even if I leave him and forsake him.:eek:

God is faithful even when I believe not.:blushsad:

The Holy Bible states:bible:

2 TIMOTEO 2:13
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


Christ is the unmovable foundation of my salvation.:thumbsup:

The Holy Bible states:bible:

1 CORINTIOS 3:11

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Even though I move back and forth Christ remains my solid base.:blushhap:


Praise God!!

:bounce:

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 08:27 PM
Dang Tom... and I just responded to the post where your accusation was that us NOSAS folk like to use a lot of hypothetical stuff. Now we get ragged for using Scripture... cool!

And there is Scripture that shows one can... so I suppose us NOSAS folks would say you are suggesting that the Scripture contradicts itself! So I suppose that don't go anywhere either!

And that right there... is reading your doctrine into Scripture. That last verse should put it to rest for those who can understand Scripture without falling into the same trap.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

The ones shrink back to destruction.... those with faith to the preservation of the soul.

It is speaking of hell and speaking of it clearly unless of course you can find one of them there passages that speak of eternity with the Lord as destruction... I wish you luck on that though.

The Greek word "apoleia" can either mean temporal or eternal ruin. In the context of the author's rendering of God's retributive fire of wrath and anger, it must be seen as temporal ruin and not the ruin or destruction of the eternal fire of hell. Furthermore, "soul" should be seen here in the context of the Hebraic sense of the person's life and not his eternal soul. Therefore it must be rendered in the sense that faith preserves those who do not shrink from the faith from the calamities that befall those who do shrink from the faith. Your rendering of the text contradicts other passages in Scripture that prove a saint cannot lose his salvation.

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 08:35 PM
Posting Scripture is one thing and fairly easy to do. Correct exegeses of Scripture is quite another thing which requires an in depth study of the word so that we may interpret Scripture with Scripture. By the way I merely answered Diggendeeper's hypothetical example with just another hypothetical example. Care to comment on 1 Samuel 15?

TomBut then Tom you didn't address the what... five actual passages that Diggendeeper had in the post? If you did then I sure enough missed it.

And as to my responding to the Samuel passage... you already know well what I think about being any sort of being disobedient and your example sure enough doesn't apply to me.

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 08:37 PM
Let me just take up ikester's defense and say the reason I have put people on ignore is because they are down right offensive and insulting towards me. It isn't a matter of truth but it is a matter of not putting up with constant insults. Getting rid of temptation.

I figure that is why ikester is doing it to.

If someone called your phone constantly insulting you, the next time you saw it was him calling, would you pick it up? I wouldn't.

Is asking the question "Is it Christlike when a saint ignores someone" being insulting or should we see it as an encouragment to be Christlike? Did Jesus, Paul, Peter or any of the other disciples ignore others when they were insulted, persecuted, downtrodden, hated, mistreated, spat on and ignored? Unfortunaterly I don't have one of the new fancy phones where you can see who is calling and I am obliged to answer it anyway. :rofl:

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 08:38 PM
The Greek word "apoleia" can either mean temporal or eternal ruin. In the context of the author's rendering of God's retributive fire of wrath and anger, it must be seen as temporal ruin and not the ruin or destruction of the eternal fire of hell. Furthermore, "soul" should be seen here in the context of the Hebraic sense of the person's life and not his eternal soul. Therefore it must be rendered in the sense that faith preserves those who do not shrink from the faith from the calamities that befall those who do shrink from the faith. Your rendering of the text contradicts other passages in Scripture that prove a saint cannot lose his salvation.

TomYou can Greek it to death... many folks do. But folks can read it for what it says and those that refuse to try and excuse it away will see it for what it actually says Tom. As to my understanding contradicting other Scripture... nah. Nice try though! ;)

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 08:39 PM
But then Tom you didn't address the what... five actual passages that Diggendeeper had in the post? If you did then I sure enough missed it.

And as to my responding to the Samuel passage... you already know well what I think about being any sort of being disobedient and your example sure enough doesn't apply to me.
I think I responded to everyone now... if I missed a post though holler and I'll find it and reply! Now I think I am caught up in the thread finally!

humbled
Mar 27th 2006, 08:45 PM
Here's your reply, Ken...hope you like it :)

I suppose maybe you missed this post... so let me repeat it for you in context with that Hebrews 10 passage and you thinking the same thing.

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

I gotta figure they are saved folk at some point in time. Does untrue belief/head knowledge result in sanctification humbled? I don't know how you read it...but it seems to me that the author is referring to the Son of God being sanctified. Read John 17:19...

John 17:19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.

So I believe the accent should be convenant in that verse. It is showing that it is the Son who was sanctified by the covenant, and not the Hebrew that was sanctified by the blood.

Sanctification is simply being set apart to or for something. And the obvious 'something' that one is being set apart for is the covenant...not salvation. So the question "Sanctified to what?" is answered in this very verse. And there is no real mention of salvation in this context, but rather the new covenant.

Anyone who tramples the Son of God underfoot (curses His name) just isn't saved. It goes against everything Scripture teaches.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

I would imagine that no one can curse Jesus who has the Holy Spirit. But that's just me...and Paul.... and God :)

humbled
Mar 27th 2006, 08:46 PM
I think I responded to everyone now... if I missed a post though holler and I'll find it and reply! Now I think I am caught up in the thread finally!Hah!!! Then I post right after this! :lol: Pretty good timing, eh?

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 08:55 PM
But then Tom you didn't address the what... five actual passages that Diggendeeper had in the post? If you did then I sure enough missed it.

And as to my responding to the Samuel passage... you already know well what I think about being any sort of being disobedient and your example sure enough doesn't apply to me.

Peter, I have addressed those passages so many times in the past that I have given up hope that it will ever find a way into the minds of certain members.

Well I'm very pleased to hear that Samuel's passage doesn't apply to you. I have been disobedient many times but it has taught me that I cannot rely on myself to remain 100% obedient to God. It only brought me closer to God after I had repented with much tears and sorrow. I didn't lose my salvation because of my disobedience. I lost my sweet fellowship with God, David prayed: "restore unto me the joy of your salvation." He did not say "restore unto me your salvation," but "the JOY of your salvation." :pp :bounce:

Tom

katiekristen
Mar 27th 2006, 08:55 PM
Why do we have to be specific? If you are actively trying to grow and seeking the Kingdom of God, you have nothing to worry about. If you are not, and are actively doing what you know is wrong.....the answer should be obvious to all. If you are concerned enough to ask and seek God's answer on this, then you are not lost.

you have to be specific if salvation is by what you DO. how actively do you have to be seeking His kingdom? is a drink occasionally ok? must i attend church a specific number of days? whoops! i missed one too many, i am outta the kingdom. if i sin all week yet go to church sunday and sincerely ask Him if i'm lost, am I? if you believe you have to attain a certain level of righteousness to keep it, you must be SPECIFIC where the cut off point is when you have gone too far and lost it.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 08:55 PM
Here's your reply, Ken...hope you like it :)
I don't know how you read it...but it seems to me that the author is referring to the Son of God being sanctified. Read John 17:19...

John 17:19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.

So I believe the accent should be convenant in that verse. It is showing that it is the Son who was sanctified by the covenant, and not the Hebrew that was sanctified by the blood.

Sanctification is simply being set apart to or for something. And the obvious 'something' that one is being set apart for is the covenant...not salvation. So the question "Sanctified to what?" is answered in this very verse. And there is no real mention of salvation in this context, but rather the new covenant.

Anyone who tramples the Son of God underfoot (curses His name) just isn't saved. It goes against everything Scripture teaches.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

I would imagine that no one can curse Jesus who has the Holy Spirit. But that's just me...and Paul.... and God :)Here's that passage again.

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

That clearly isn't talking about Jesus eh? You might try that one again. The same "he" who tramples is the same "he" who regards as unclean and the same "he" who was sanctified by that blood "he" regards as unclean.
And that "he" in that passage has insulted the Spirit of grace.

katiekristen
Mar 27th 2006, 08:57 PM
you have to be specific if salvation is by what you DO. how actively do you have to be seeking His kingdom? is a drink occasionally ok? must i attend church a specific number of days? whoops! i missed one too many, i am outta the kingdom. if i sin all week yet go to church sunday and sincerely ask Him if i'm lost, am I? if you believe you have to attain a certain level of righteousness to keep it, you must be SPECIFIC where the cut off point is when you have gone too far and lost it.


suppose you are a sincere Christian who slips up and looks at porn. have you lost salvation? or do you have to look at it 3 times a week to be bad enough to be tossed out? consider the many christians who get addicted to porn and deeply desire change, but cant. are they lost? if you go to church but are bored by it (as i have been at times in my life) are you SINCERE enough or SEEKING enough to maintain it? "for by GRACE are you saved"!!!! to Him alone be the glory for my salvation.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 09:02 PM
Peter, I have addressed those passages so many times in the past that I have given up hope that it will ever find a way into the minds of certain members. Ditto I am sure.




Well I'm very pleased to hear that Samuel's passage doesn't apply to you. I have been disobedient many times but it has taught me that I cannot rely on myself to remain 100% obedient to God. It only brought me closer to God after I had repented with much tears and sorrow. I didn't lose my salvation because of my disobedience. I lost my sweet fellowship with God, David prayed: "restore unto me the joy of your salvation." He did not say "restore unto me your salvation," but "the JOY of your salvation." :pp :bounce:

TomLet me set this straight so there be no misunderstanding. I am sure you didn't intend to imply that I didn't think the passage applies to me since that isn't what I said at all. My comment was that your example of folks going on about obedience and disobedience and whatnot did not apply to me.

Just trying to keep it real Tom.

humbled
Mar 27th 2006, 09:03 PM
Here's that passage again.

Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

That clearly isn't talking about Jesus eh? You might try that one again. The same "he" who tramples is the same "he" who regards as unclean and the same "he" who was sanctified by that blood "he" regards as unclean.
And that "he" in that passage has insulted the Spirit of grace.You see black, where I see white.

Your interpretation disregards the very verse I gave you...just to name one.

How can a man who has the Holy Spirit in him trample the Son of God underfoot in light of 1Cor12:3? Apparently the Holy Spirit leaves him first, eh?

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 09:05 PM
you have to be specific if salvation is by what you DO. how actively do you have to be seeking His kingdom? is a drink occasionally ok? must i attend church a specific number of days? whoops! i missed one too many, i am outta the kingdom. if i sin all week yet go to church sunday and sincerely ask Him if i'm lost, am I? if you believe you have to attain a certain level of righteousness to keep it, you must be SPECIFIC where the cut off point is when you have gone too far and lost it. Is a drink now and again okay... sure. Being a drunkard... not okay.

Attend church a specific number of days.... just don't forsake the assembling of the saints.

Whispering Grace
Mar 27th 2006, 09:05 PM
*....wakes up from nap, rubs eyes, looks around....*

Well? Have we reached a consensus yet? :hmm:










:lol:


PP....do you think God has a problem with me fiercely clinging to Him like a helpless little baby?

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 09:09 PM
Ditto I am sure.

Let me set this straight so there be no misunderstanding. I am sure you didn't intend to imply that I didn't think the passage applies to me since that isn't what I said at all. My comment was that your example of folks going on about obedience and disobedience and whatnot did not apply to me.

Just trying to keep it real Tom.

Let's keep it real and let me ask you again . . . any comments on Samuel 15?

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 09:10 PM
You see black, where I see white.And that can quickly become nothing more than an excuse. What I see is plain simple Scripture. That is in no way speaking of Jesus.




Your interpretation disregards the very verse I gave you...just to name one.No it doesn't humbled. The passage you quoted has absolutely nothing at all to do with the Hebrews passage. You simple concordanced sanctified and saw something you thought you could work with. But context doesn't at all allow for your interpretation of that... not even close really.


How can a man who has the Holy Spirit in him trample the Son of God underfoot in light of 1Cor12:3? Apparently the Holy Spirit leaves him first, eh?He insulted Him. That person is not speaking by the Spirit of God. He's apostate... why would he?

Tom Lessing
Mar 27th 2006, 09:10 PM
You can Greek it to death... many folks do. But folks can read it for what it says and those that refuse to try and excuse it away will see it for what it actually says Tom. As to my understanding contradicting other Scripture... nah. Nice try though! ;)

You can do better than that, Peter. Try again. I asked you once whether Solomon was saved or not. You didn't answer me because apparently it would put you in a very tight spot. And yet you can say with absolute certainty that those saints whom the author of Hebrews describe lost their salvation?

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 09:13 PM
*....wakes up from nap, rubs eyes, looks around....*

Well? Have we reached a consensus yet? :hmm:
:lol:


PP....do you think God has a problem with me fiercely clinging to Him like a helpless little baby?Not at all since I know what you are meaning. But that being said... God doesn't want you staying a baby in doctrine and understanding. He wants you to mature and expects that of you. Hence the passages in Hebrews 5 and 6 with warning attached. And then that whole progression thing in humbled's favorite passage... 2 Peter 1: 1-11.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 09:18 PM
Let's keep it real and let me ask you again . . . any comments on Samuel 15?

TomWhy and what do you want me to respond to? What did that passage have to do with anything in this discussion other than your misrepresentation of what NOSAS folks believe? You know what I think of obedience Tom... obey the Lord... Your eternal destiny depends on it.

pnewton
Mar 27th 2006, 09:21 PM
*....wakes up from nap, rubs eyes, looks around....*

Well? Have we reached a consensus yet? Yes, to serve pizza next get together. I don't think we need any sharp utensils around.

PS - Is the passage in question First or Second Samuel 15?

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 09:22 PM
You can do better than that, Peter. Try again. I asked you once whether Solomon was saved or not. You didn't answer me because apparently it would put you in a very tight spot. And yet you can say with absolute certainty that those saints whom the author of Hebrews describe lost their salvation?

TomAnd that isn't the truth Tom. I most certainly answered you.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=751179&postcount=291

I don't know because it doesn't say for certain. If you can show me a passage that states with certainty that Solomon is in heaven then I will no doubt say Solomon is in heaven. If you can't... then I won't say it for certain. The record that we have of him paints him in a bad spot. But there is nothing that tells me what he did before he died and had Solomon repented and turned back to God then he would be just as much okay as his dad is. If he didn't... then Solomon is likely rubbing elbows with the rich man. But all in all... that's God's call. Certainly not mine.

ILUVLIGHT
Mar 27th 2006, 09:23 PM
Hi Peter;

Not at all since I know what you are meaning. But that being said... God doesn't want you staying a baby in doctrine and understanding. He wants you to mature and expects that of you. Hence the passages in Hebrews 5 and 6 with warning attached. And then that whole progression thing in humbled's favorite passage... 2 Peter 1: 1-11.
Do we disregard all the opposing scripture for what is writen in Hebrews. What about the majority of Scriptures that support the OSAS position. You do know that the reason so many disagree with your position is because scripture doesn't support loosing our Salvation once we have it.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 09:25 PM
Hi Peter;

Do we disregard all the opposing scripture for what is writen in Hebrews. What about the majority of Scriptures that support the OSAS position. You do know that the reason so many disagree with your position is because scripture doesn't support loosing our Salvation once we have it.
In The Light Of Christ;
MikeDo you believe that Hebrews is just as much Scripture as Romans?

JesusPhreak27
Mar 27th 2006, 10:01 PM
It sure enough wasn't a very smart thing to do... you do know who God is right?

So it is my hope that you confessed that sin and repented. If not... let me go on a limb here and highly recommend you do so.

But doesnt He say to put all your worries before Him? Also why was it okay for Job to let his frustations go?????

BTW Yes I did wake up the next morning and appologize

Whispering Grace
Mar 27th 2006, 10:07 PM
Not at all since I know what you are meaning. But that being said... God doesn't want you staying a baby in doctrine and understanding. He wants you to mature and expects that of you. Hence the passages in Hebrews 5 and 6 with warning attached. And then that whole progression thing in humbled's favorite passage... 2 Peter 1: 1-11.

PP.....when we stand before God one day, are we going to be judged by our own attained righteousness or by Christ's imputed righteousness?

pnewton
Mar 27th 2006, 10:20 PM
PP.....when we stand before God one day, are we going to be judged by our own attained righteousness or by Christ's imputed righteousness? We can know what the Judge will say. He told us:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

ProjectPeter
Mar 27th 2006, 10:26 PM
But doesnt He say to put all your worries before Him? Also why was it okay for Job to let his frustations go?????

BTW Yes I did wake up the next morning and appologizeJob never cursed God. From your post you said that is what you did. That ain't putting your worries before Him... that's cursing God. A vast difference.

As to apologizing... that's good and all. But repent which means you ain't doing it again because it is sinful and outright wrong and you are changing your mind that thought it alright to do. It isn't.

Owen
Mar 27th 2006, 10:34 PM
PP.....when we stand before God one day, are we going to be judged by our own attained righteousness or by Christ's imputed righteousness?

Where does the Bible ever state that Christ's righteousness is imputed to our account?

BTW the answer your question is seen in Romans 2:5-8:

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

That is how God will judge us.

Whispering Grace
Mar 27th 2006, 11:39 PM
Where does the Bible ever state that Christ's righteousness is imputed to our account?



Um......what?

*....frantically gathers the scattered pieces of blown mind and tries to stick them back together....*

Owen
Mar 27th 2006, 11:43 PM
Um......what?

*....frantically gathers the scattered pieces of blown mind and tries to stick them back together....*

You wrote:

PP.....when we stand before God one day, are we going to be judged by our own attained righteousness or by Christ's imputed righteousness?

And I am asking. Where does the Bible ever state that Christ's own righteousness is creditted to us as our own righteousness? Also to add, where does the Bible ever say we are to be judged by Christ's imputed righteousness?

JesusPhreak27
Mar 27th 2006, 11:44 PM
Job never cursed God. From your post you said that is what you did. That ain't putting your worries before Him... that's cursing God. A vast difference.

As to apologizing... that's good and all. But repent which means you ain't doing it again because it is sinful and outright wrong and you are changing your mind that thought it alright to do. It isn't.

NO NO NO!!!! LOL I said that I cursed AT God...... Oh man...... LOL No....I know that that is something you CANT do (curse Him....LOL) Sorry for the confusion......

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 12:20 AM
You wrote:


And I am asking. Where does the Bible ever state that Christ's own righteousness is creditted to us as our own righteousness?

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Philippians 3:9

Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9

Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

Owen
Mar 28th 2006, 12:24 AM
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Philippians 3:9

Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9

Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

Which of those verses state that CHRIST'S righteousness is creditted to our account? I could just as likewise say through Christ's righteousness, we were given a new righteous nature.

In other words I am looking for a verse that says "Christ's righteousness is imputed to you" or something to that effect.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 12:37 AM
Which of those verses state that CHRIST'S righteousness is creditted to our account? I could just as likewise say through Christ's righteousness, we were given a new righteous nature.

In other words I am looking for a verse that says "Christ's righteousness is imputed to you" or something to that effect.

I don't see how I could make it any clearer.

Can you please share the Gospel with me, Owen? Pretend you are out evangelizing on the streets and you come upon me and I seem open to hearing about Christ. What would you tell me?

Owen
Mar 28th 2006, 12:50 AM
I don't see how I could make it any clearer.

Can you please share the Gospel with me, Owen? Pretend you are out evangelizing on the streets and you come upon me and I seem open to hearing about Christ. What would you tell me?

I don't know if I would present it this was in evangelizing because it gets theological, but Christ died to free you from living in sin so that you may live righteously through the new nature that Christ bought for you.

But irregardless. You asked PP a question that was slanted in a way that if he didn't answer Christ's imputed righteousness, it would look wrong. I am simply asking you to show where one can make an actual judgement that Christ's righteousness is creditted to our account. It is a phrase used a lot but never backed up in Scripture when said. If one wishes to make a statement dogmatically, one better be ready to show it clearly when called to account for it, especially when used to argue against something else being discussed from Scripture.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 01:01 AM
I don't know if I would present it this was in evangelizing because it gets theological, but Christ died to free you from living in sin so that you may live righteously through the new nature that Christ bought for you.

Christ didn't buy me a new "nature". He bought me. Period.


But irregardless. You asked PP a question that was slanted in a way that if he didn't answer Christ's imputed righteousness, it would look wrong. I am simply asking you to show where one can make an actual judgement that Christ's righteousness is creditted to our account. It is a phrase used a lot but never backed up in Scripture when said. If one wishes to make a statement dogmatically, one better be ready to show it clearly when called to account for it, especially when used to argue against something else being discussed from Scripture.

I think you are reading way too much into my intentions in asking PP that question. I'm not here to be shifty and try to scheme in discussions to "trick" people if that is what you are implying. It was an honest question.

Owen
Mar 28th 2006, 01:11 AM
Christ didn't buy me a new "nature". He bought me. Period.

And I never stated that he didn't buy us, did I? But He buys us from freeing us from sin. I was firmly talking about the gospel and salvation.

But that still doens't matter. You failed to actually back up that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, which is the point. Not what I believe but the very basis of the question.


I think you are reading way too much into my intentions in asking PP that question. I'm not here to be shifty and try to scheme in discussions to "trick" people if that is what you are implying. It was an honest question.

So you mean to say "our own attained righteousness" next to "Christ's righteousness" isn't slanted, considering we constantly hear "we have nothing to do with our salvation" and consdiering you don't believe NOSAS? It may have been honest, but its one of the few times in these discussions a question was asked simply for the sake of asking.

hydrathhu
Mar 28th 2006, 01:17 AM
Owen


I am simply asking you to show where one can make an actual judgement that Christ's righteousness is creditted to our account. It is a phrase used a lot but never backed up in Scripture when said. If one wishes to make a statement dogmatically, one better be ready to show it clearly when called to account for it, especially when used to argue against something else being discussed from Scripture.


There is with great joy as I share scriptures that show the righteousness of Christ is called on our behalf.
:pp

Thru Christs work, we have peace with the judgement of God:saint:


The Holy bible States:bible:


1 JUAN 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


We have a advocate Christ, who is righteous with God with Gods own righteousness..
It is his righteousness that gives us credit with God.
:amen:






The Holy bible States:bible:

2 CORINTIOS 5:21
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Thru Christ we have the Righteousness of God.:thumbsup:



The Holy bible States:bible:

ROMANOS 3: 22-24

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


The righteousness of God is in Christians thru Christ.:blushhap:

ALL have sinned, the saved and unsaved. :blushsad:

Only the Christians are justified to God, thru Christ.:thumbsup:

:bounce:

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 01:20 AM
And I never stated that he didn't buy us, did I? But He buys us from freeing us from sin. I was firmly talking about the gospel and salvation.

But that still doens't matter. You failed to actually back up that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, which is the point. Not what I believe but the very basis of the question.



So you mean to say "our own attained righteousness" next to "Christ's righteousness" isn't slanted, considering we constantly hear "we have nothing to do with our salvation" and consdiering you don't believe NOSAS? It may have been honest, but its one of the few times in these discussions a question was asked simply for the sake of asking.

Owen, I'm sorry, but I can't engage you anymore in these discussions. At this point, my desire to obey and glorify the Lord is greater than my desire to defend myself.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 01:23 AM
PP.....when we stand before God one day, are we going to be judged by our own attained righteousness or by Christ's imputed righteousness?WG... I read backwards here and saw the later post already and would pretty much go where Owen has gone with this. Naturally it is the righteousness of Christ but it is going to be one of those things where we speak the same language but mean something different.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 01:35 AM
NO NO NO!!!! LOL I said that I cursed AT God...... Oh man...... LOL No....I know that that is something you CANT do (curse Him....LOL) Sorry for the confusion......Well that's different in a sense... but still not the brightest move one could make. So I would still offer that same advice.

katiekristen
Mar 28th 2006, 03:59 AM
Is a drink now and again okay... sure. Being a drunkard... not okay.

Attend church a specific number of days.... just don't forsake the assembling of the saints.

how can you ever be SURE you are saved if you have to be good? you dont know if you are good enough. and in fact, you are not, neither am i. it has to be by grace. "the just shall live by faith"!!!

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 04:09 AM
how can you ever be SURE you are saved if you have to be good? you dont know if you are good enough. and in fact, you are not, neither am i. it has to be by grace. "the just shall live by faith"!!!

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

WesleyanDude
Mar 28th 2006, 04:43 AM
1 JUAN 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

We have a advocate Christ, who is righteous with God with Gods own righteousness..
It is his righteousness that gives us credit with God.

2 CORINTIOS 5:21
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thru Christ we have the Righteousness of God.
Look at the “we might be made” That is not imputed righteousness but IMPARTED righteousness. This is what OWEN is pointing out. You are proving his point. God made us righteous, not, he only looks through his rose colored glasses and sees us as righteous when we are really sinful. God just does not change his opinion of us because of Jesus, he acts upon us and “cleanses us from all unrighteousness” if you would finish the thought of I John 1:9

humbled
Mar 28th 2006, 05:20 AM
how can you ever be SURE you are saved if you have to be good? you dont know if you are good enough. and in fact, you are not, neither am i. it has to be by grace. "the just shall live by faith"!!!2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.I thought that you would only know you are saved if you believe? Isn't that what you were telling us that Hebrews says? I'm confused...Which is it? Do we apostasize ourselves from a lack of belief? Or is it a lack of doing things?

Is the only way we can have assurance by doing certain things written down in the Bible? What if we're struggling with certain sins? How long can someone struggle with sin before they should doubt their salvation?

The requirement for salvation...Scripturally speaking...is belief. Nothing more...nothing less. Believe and you will be saved. That is the common element.

I want everyone who is being burdened with doubt by what has been going on in the last several threads to look at these verses:

John 20:30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:31 They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

And the indication that you are truly saved...

2 Thess 1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
5 This is a plain indication (evidence) of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

If you believe that Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of righteousness, died to be a propitiation (appease the wrath of God), and calls you into His kingdom, you are saved. This belief, being genuine, will produce good works of righteousness...not for any type of gain, but for evidence of a good tree that bears good fruit. God bless His children reading this. Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." The elect will not be misled. Praise God.

Tom Lessing
Mar 28th 2006, 06:48 AM
I don't know if I would present it this was in evangelizing because it gets theological, but Christ died to free you from living in sin so that you may live righteously through the new nature that Christ bought for you.

But irregardless. You asked PP a question that was slanted in a way that if he didn't answer Christ's imputed righteousness, it would look wrong. I am simply asking you to show where one can make an actual judgement that Christ's righteousness is creditted to our account. It is a phrase used a lot but never backed up in Scripture when said. If one wishes to make a statement dogmatically, one better be ready to show it clearly when called to account for it, especially when used to argue against something else being discussed from Scripture.

Could you please explain for us what the following means.
ROMANS 4:1-9

1 IF so, what shall we say about Abraham, our forefather humanly speaking--[what did he] find out? [How does this affect his position, and what was gained by him?]

2 For if Abraham was justified established as just by acquittal from guilt) by good works [that he did, then] he has grounds for boasting. But not before God!

3 For what does the Scripture say? [B]Abraham believed in (trusted in) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living and right standing with God).(A)

4 Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him).

5 But to one who, not working , trusts (believes fully) in Him Who justifies the ungodly, [B]his faith is credited to him as righteousness (the standing acceptable to God).

6 Thus David congratulates the man and pronounces a blessing on him to whom God credits righteousness apart from the works he does:

7 Blessed and happy and [c]to be envied are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered up and completely buried.

8 Blessed and happy and [d]to be envied is the person of whose sin the Lord will take no account nor reckon it against him.(B)

9 Is this blessing (happiness) then meant only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

AND also the following:
1 CORINTHIANS 1:30

30 But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, [B]Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin]


Tom

WesleyanDude
Mar 28th 2006, 06:59 AM
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Humbled, I know you did not post this for this purpose, but to just point out this verse that gets misunderstood as pre-appointed people for eternal life, is not in this text.

Acts 13:48
Greek - “and believed; as many as were “tetagménoi = set” to eternal life” This is not a predestination from God, as some might want to impose this on this passage, but it simply means that the people who heard the message believed because they were “set” or “had mind set” “disposed toward” had a mind set for eternal life.

I would amplify this text this way. “The gentiles who had their minds set (their thoughts were arranged, they were focused) on eternal life heard the message and were glad and believed”.

These Gentiles were converts to Judaism and were seeking eternal life and were ripe and ready for harvest.

WesleyanDude
Mar 28th 2006, 07:34 AM
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in (trusted in) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living and right standing with God).

Rom 4
2 …CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
9 …FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
11 … that righteousness might be credited to them.

I do not see this as a credit to an account like we think of as a bank. The object of the credit is not an account but Abraham himself. Not some ambiguous account in Abraham’s name. He “Abraham” and “them” those who believe are the objects who received (imparted) “righteousness” because of faith. In other words this is not some declaration from God or some attitude change, but an impartation from God to Abraham. This then gives us the power from God to say NO to sin and YES to God.

(Right living and right standing with God) this is incomplete compared to scripture. We are to live right, stand right but we are also MADE RIGHT. We are a new creation.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 08:46 AM
WG... I read backwards here and saw the later post already and would pretty much go where Owen has gone with this. Naturally it is the righteousness of Christ but it is going to be one of those things where we speak the same language but mean something different.

PP....hear me out for a second, please.

I don't know why, but suddenly the whole of your beliefs has clicked with me. I don't know how I have read all of these threads and not even seen it until now, but perhaps I was blinded a bit by my own deeply held beliefs.

It has always been my understanding that we share and preach the same Gospel. You think we choose God, I believe God chooses us. But that we are saved through faith in Christ alone.......in His perfect, sinless, righteous life (the life we cannot live) and in His sacrifice on the Cross (that satisfied God's wrath so that we could be forgiven).

You claim that we aren't "earning" anything.....that we are simply being obedient to God. But you also say that if we don't meet a certain standard of holiness that at some point we will lose our salvation.

And now I am reading that when we stand before God in judgment that we will be judged on our actions (even if you believe God gives us the raw materials, we WILL be judged on what we do with those raw materials).

In essence, we are all judged on our works. I will be judged no differently than the heathen. The heathen can't live righteously without Christ, so he is already condemened. Whereas a Christian has been given the means to live righteously by Christ, but we will still stand before God on our own merit based on what we did with these Christ-given raw materials.

Basically, Christ bought us the means to earn our salvation. Salvation through God is still works based, but with faith, God gives us the means for those works for which we will one day be judged.

And that ^^^^ goes against everything I stand for, everything I believe, everything that I know faith in Christ to be. It is, to put it simply, a different Gospel.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 09:00 AM
Romans 4

20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,
24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 09:23 AM
Jude 1:24-25

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

pnewton
Mar 28th 2006, 01:25 PM
Naturally it is the righteousness of Christ but it is going to be one of those things where we speak the same language but mean something different.I think using terms differently is a common problem between denominations. "Righteousness" is a classic example, as is "works". This problem and debate extended back to the time of James, and I think his perspective can help us. If someone says the are Christian (have faith, are saved, etc.), and there is no translation of that status into action, then such a claim makes no sense. It is like the employee who claims to be dedicated to his job, yet never does any work at all. He is fired for lack of dedication to his job, because his actions have shown his employer that he is a slack-jaw.

James responded to this incongruity by challenging all to look at his life. He would show his faith by his works (life-style evangelization). Likewise Abraham had faith that was manifested in action in the willingess to offer his son, believing God would raise him from the dead. Had he said, " I believe God, but will not do as He has commanded," then his lack of works would have resulted from an absence of faith.

I think we often bat this topic around as if faith and works had no relation to each other. Faith without works are dead. Works without faith are empty.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 01:29 PM
I think we often bat this topic around as if faith and works had no relation to each other. Faith without works are dead. Works without faith are empty.

Hi Pnewton. :)

You get absolutely no argument from me on the above. Faith without works is dead faith. I could not agree more.

The sticking issue here is what role works play in our actual salvation.

humbled
Mar 28th 2006, 01:37 PM
Humbled, I know you did not post this for this purpose, but to just point out this verse that gets misunderstood as pre-appointed people for eternal life, is not in this text.

Acts 13:48
Greek - “and believed; as many as were “tetagménoi = set” to eternal life” This is not a predestination from God, as some might want to impose this on this passage, but it simply means that the people who heard the message believed because they were “set” or “had mind set” “disposed toward” had a mind set for eternal life.

I would amplify this text this way. “The gentiles who had their minds set (their thoughts were arranged, they were focused) on eternal life heard the message and were glad and believed”.

These Gentiles were converts to Judaism and were seeking eternal life and were ripe and ready for harvest. :)

You're right...that isn't the point I was making...but since you bring it up ;)

The word is actually tas'-so.

G5021
tas'-so

Strong's Definition:
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

Thayer Definition:
1) to put in order, to station
1a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
1a1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one
1b) to appoint, ordain, order
1b1) to appoint on one’s own responsibility or authority
1b2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1143552169-9094.html#48

The tense (which is the key) is a perfect (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1143552262-6169.html), passive (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1143552273-5135.html), participle (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1143552299-3354.html). (click each word)
The perfect tense is something completed in the past.
The passive is inactive on part of the receiver (the boy was HIT by the ball - where the word hit is passive)
The participle is simply a 'verbal noun'.

This tells me ... and correct me if I've misunderstood this ... that the ordaining is something that was completed in the past due to no action taken by the person being ordained (he was, in effect, hit by the ordaining).

And as with anything, the context is critical as well. The context suggests that it is concerning salvation. And we know from Ephesians 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%201:5;&version=49;) and Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%208:29;&version=49;) that the Lord predestinates some. So while the immediate context may not say that the Lord predestinates those whom He will save, the application is most certainly reasonable in light of Scripture references in other places.

humbled
Mar 28th 2006, 01:49 PM
Rom 4
2 …CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
9 …FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
11 … that righteousness might be credited to them.

I do not see this as a credit to an account like we think of as a bank. The object of the credit is not an account but Abraham himself. Not some ambiguous account in Abraham’s name. He “Abraham” and “them” those who believe are the objects who received (imparted) “righteousness” because of faith. In other words this is not some declaration from God or some attitude change, but an impartation from God to Abraham. This then gives us the power from God to say NO to sin and YES to God.

(Right living and right standing with God) this is incomplete compared to scripture. We are to live right, stand right but we are also MADE RIGHT. We are a new creation.
I have a problem with this word...impart. As the definition doesn't show the true relationship as to what is actually happening here. It actually takes away the power of what Christ did on the Cross, IMO, since it puts actual responsibility upon the receiver to "live up to" something, and takes away from Christ's accomplishment.
Main Entry: im·part http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?impart01.wav=impart%27%29)
Pronunciation: im-'pärt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle French & Latin; Middle French impartir, from Latin impartire, from in- + partire to divide, part
1 : to give, convey, or grant from or as if from a store <her experience imparted authority to her words> <the flavor imparted by herbs>
2 : to communicate the knowledge of : DISCLOSE (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/disclose) <imparted my scheme to no one>
To impute, on the other hand, actually has the word credit in it, and the actual definition of what happened on the Cross:
Main Entry: im·pute http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?impute01.wav=impute%27%29)
Pronunciation: im-'pyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): im·put·ed; im·put·ing
Etymology: Middle English inputen, from Latin imputare, from in- + putare to consider
1 : to lay the responsibility or blame for often falsely or unjustly - (this actually happened to Jesus)
2 : to credit (we are credited) to a person (not his "account") or a cause : ATTRIBUTE (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/attribute) <our vices as well as our virtues have been imputed to bodily derangement -- B. N. Cardozo>
According to your definition (impartation), what does that say about someone who does not perform good works? Do they lose salvation for not performing them? Or are good works an automatic thing as a result of this impartation?

I'd like to know what your take is on this :)

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 03:50 PM
I thought that you would only know you are saved if you believe? Isn't that what you were telling us that Hebrews says? I'm confused...Which is it? Do we apostasize ourselves from a lack of belief? Or is it a lack of doing things?I honestly haven't a clue if you really read my post or not humbled. I've written many times unbelief in the various Hebrew post as well as disobedience. I've also made it clear that I think you guys are dead wrong on trying to count everthing as works of the Law as well. So doing stuff... not sure how it is that you think a person has biblical faith and yet does nothing. I know folks like to think there are no rules in this race and as long as you are pronounced in it... you've automatically won... but there is nothing such portrayed in the Scripture.

Yes... we are saved by faith. A present always, active, doing, faith in Christ Jesus. No... nothing we can do will get us into heaven that isn't done by that very faith. I can go to church and give everything I have to the poor... but without Christ... I am nothing and weeping and gnashing of teeth will simply be my lot in life.


Is the only way we can have assurance by doing certain things written down in the Bible? What if we're struggling with certain sins? How long can someone struggle with sin before they should doubt their salvation?There is not a struggle with sin that cannot be put down if one is walking in the authority and the power of the Spirit of God. Not one sin. I hear this stuff and I often wonder if folks even know what Christ has done for us. Too many people stuck in Romans 7 and so much so that they can't get beyond that and move into Romans 8.


The requirement for salvation...Scripturally speaking...is belief. Nothing more...nothing less. Believe and you will be saved. That is the common element.And even you say that this faith must work if it is a true faith... right?


I want everyone who is being burdened with doubt by what has been going on in the last several threads to look at these verses:

John 20:30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:31 They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

And the indication that you are truly saved...

2 Thess 1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
5 This is a plain indication (evidence) of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

If you believe that Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of righteousness, died to be a propitiation (appease the wrath of God), and calls you into His kingdom, you are saved. This belief, being genuine, will produce good works of righteousness...not for any type of gain, but for evidence of a good tree that bears good fruit. God bless His children reading this. Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." The elect will not be misled. Praise God.Well let me add a couple of passages to your list there Humbled.

Acts 26:19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

Romans 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.
15 ¶What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are many, many, more such as that. If you need to see them then let me know.

hydrathhu
Mar 28th 2006, 04:04 PM
WesleyanDude

Thank you for your answer.

The Holy Bible states:bible:

2 CORINTIOS 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

WesleyanDude Stated:


Look at the “we might be made” That is not imputed righteousness but IMPARTED righteousness. This is what OWEN is pointing out. You are proving his point. God made us righteous, not, he only looks through his rose colored glasses and sees us as righteous when we are really sinful.

There was negative and positive imputation that occured there.
Imputation is the correct term for it means.
:note:
"The act of imputing or ascribing; attribution." In a LEGAL manner.
It is a legal term, and when dealing with the judgement of God, legal terms are with in context.

Believers gain the attribute of righteousness, thru their belief on Christ..

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf:sad:

Negative imputation is;
Our sins are imputed to Christ, he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins.

that we might become the righteousness of God in Him:saint:

Positive imputation is;
Christs Righteousness is imputed to those who believe. We are credited with the righteousness of Christ.

God thru imputation made Christ to be sin, just as much as he made us righteous.

Christ had to be made sin for God to judge him.

Christ was made sin thru imputation.:note:

We are made righteous in the same manner.

The Holy Bible states:bible:

1 CORINTIOS 1:30-31 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-- that is,
our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."



God just does not change his opinion of us because of Jesus, he acts upon us and “cleanses us from all unrighteousness” if you would finish the thought of I John 1:9

Believers constantly sin, 1 John 1:9 is to the believer what John 3:16 is to then non-believers.:blushsad:

It is a way for the believers who have sinned to cast the sins away and return to fellowship.:D


When man had no hope god provided a way for salvation, and beyond!!
:bounce:

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 04:15 PM
PP....hear me out for a second, please.

I don't know why, but suddenly the whole of your beliefs has clicked with me. I don't know how I have read all of these threads and not even seen it until now, but perhaps I was blinded a bit by my own deeply held beliefs.

It has always been my understanding that we share and preach the same Gospel. You think we choose God, I believe God chooses us. But that we are saved through faith in Christ alone.......in His perfect, sinless, righteous life (the life we cannot live) and in His sacrifice on the Cross (that satisfied God's wrath so that we could be forgiven).

You claim that we aren't "earning" anything.....that we are simply being obedient to God. But you also say that if we don't meet a certain standard of holiness that at some point we will lose our salvation.

And now I am reading that when we stand before God in judgment that we will be judged on our actions (even if you believe God gives us the raw materials, we WILL be judged on what we do with those raw materials).

In essence, we are all judged on our works. I will be judged no differently than the heathen. The heathen can't live righteously without Christ, so he is already condemened. Whereas a Christian has been given the means to live righteously by Christ, but we will still stand before God on our own merit based on what we did with these Christ-given raw materials.

Basically, Christ bought us the means to earn our salvation. Salvation through God is still works based, but with faith, God gives us the means for those works for which we will one day be judged.

And that ^^^^ goes against everything I stand for, everything I believe, everything that I know faith in Christ to be. It is, to put it simply, a different Gospel.Let me simply say WG... if you think my gospel is "a different" Gospel then rest assured there are two options here. You only think you have finally understood it or you really are so steeped in your own doctrine that you truly haven't much a clue what the Bible says.

You have uttered some nasty words in saying I preach a "different gospel" and the implication naturally brings that Galatains passage to mind and you knew it when you posted those words as well as highlighting the printed words. Tell me WG... what do you think the gospel message is? One that just says believe and that's it? No obedience required... just believe and go to a good old Reformed Church and when you cack out one day then you are in like flint? I challenge you to find me one of the mainstream Reformed teachers that even remotely teach anything even close to that?

I've said it before... I have heard many a Reformed teacher teach on obedience and shoot... those messages are messages that I would teach word for word. The only difference is that you believe it an automatic thing and if a person has no desire to obey or they live like hell after they are "saved" then that person was a false convert and never saved anyway. But you judge that based on that fact. And you best be careful with your words because I know you have said that very thing. When you get beyond that place where your doctrine is blinding you... then you might actually get that one day. Ask the free grace/ultra-grace folk. They see it as clearly as if looking though a window. You go through the back door to that doctrine and I simply go through the front.

Show me one passage where it says the disobedient will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say the obedient do. Show me one passage where someone practicing sin will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say they don't.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 04:26 PM
I think using terms differently is a common problem between denominations. "Righteousness" is a classic example, as is "works". This problem and debate extended back to the time of James, and I think his perspective can help us. If someone says the are Christian (have faith, are saved, etc.), and there is no translation of that status into action, then such a claim makes no sense. It is like the employee who claims to be dedicated to his job, yet never does any work at all. He is fired for lack of dedication to his job, because his actions have shown his employer that he is a slack-jaw.

James responded to this incongruity by challenging all to look at his life. He would show his faith by his works (life-style evangelization). Likewise Abraham had faith that was manifested in action in the willingess to offer his son, believing God would raise him from the dead. Had he said, " I believe God, but will not do as He has commanded," then his lack of works would have resulted from an absence of faith.

I think we often bat this topic around as if faith and works had no relation to each other. Faith without works are dead. Works without faith are empty.That is exactly right.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 04:42 PM
Let me simply say WG... if you think my gospel is "a different" Gospel then rest assured there are two options here. You only think you have finally understood it or you really are so steeped in your own doctrine that you truly haven't much a clue what the Bible says.

You have uttered some nasty words in saying I preach a "different gospel" and the implication naturally brings that Galatains passage to mind and you knew it when you posted those words as well as highlighting the printed words. Tell me WG... what do you think the gospel message is? One that just says believe and that's it? No obedience required... just believe and go to a good old Reformed Church and when you cack out one day then you are in like flint? I challenge you to find me one of the mainstream Reformed teachers that even remotely teach anything even close to that?

I've said it before... I have heard many a Reformed teacher teach on obedience and shoot... those messages are messages that I would teach word for word. The only difference is that you believe it an automatic thing and if a person has no desire to obey or they live like hell after they are "saved" then that person was a false convert and never saved anyway. But you judge that based on that fact. And you best be careful with your words because I know you have said that very thing. When you get beyond that place where your doctrine is blinding you... then you might actually get that one day. Ask the free grace/ultra-grace folk. They see it as clearly as if looking though a window. You go through the back door to that doctrine and I simply go through the front.

Show me one passage where it says the disobedient will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say the obedient do. Show me one passage where someone practicing sin will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say they don't.

PP....if you believe I am misunderstanding, then please go through my post and correct what I have wrong. I have laid out what I have taken from some recent posts, and if I am wrong, then I would appreciate you correcting me.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 04:49 PM
PP....if you believe I am misunderstanding, then please go through my post and correct what I have wrong. I have laid out what I have taken from some recent posts, and if I am wrong, then I would appreciate you correcting me.
No WG. You judged me as preaching a different gospel and you are implying that I should be cursed. You show me where I am wrong. I asked you two very simple questions to begin this venture. Show me those passages.

hydrathhu
Mar 28th 2006, 04:54 PM
ProjectPeter


Show me one passage where it says the disobedient will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say the obedient do. Show me one passage where someone practicing sin will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say they don't.

There is understanding that I wish to share.:idea:

I see no passages where NOT practicing sin will have one inherit the kingdom of God.

:dunno:

The Jewish religious leaders of Christs day was very sinless, they followed the law to the letter..
They was still not righteouss like Christ.

:eek:


If we sin God is STILL with us
If we disobey God is STILL with us

The Holy Bible states:bible:

HEBREOS 13:5

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

God will never leave us.:blushhap:
That means even if we are in sin, God will still be with us.:thumbsup:


Inheriting the kingdom is after salvation.

:hmm:


The Holy Bible states:bible:

JUAN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth,no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again

JUAN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


The Holy Bible states:bible:

EFESIOS 1:18
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,


To SEE the kingdom, to ENTER the kingdom.
You must have salvation.

To INHERIT the kigdom, you must have more than just salvation.

Inherit is a reward.:2cents:

Salvation is a gift:pray:

We can enter heaven by the salvation that is in Christ, and we can have reward in heaven by the following of Christs commands.
:bounce:

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 05:00 PM
ProjectPeter

There is understanding that I wish to share.:idea:

I see no passages where NOT practicing sin will have one inherit the kingdom of God.

:dunno:

The Jewish religious leaders of Christs day was very sinless, they followed the law to the letter..
They was still not righteouss like Christ.They were not sinless and I really haven't a clue how you came to that conclusion. Please show me how it is that you have Scripturally come to this understanding?


If we sin God is STILL with us
If we disobey God is STILL with us

The Holy Bible states:bible:

HEBREOS 13:5

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

God will never leave us.:blushhap:
That means even if we are in sin, God will still be with us.:thumbsup:You get that from Hebrews 13:5?

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 05:02 PM
No WG. You judged me as preaching a different gospel and you are implying that I should be cursed. You show me where I am wrong. I asked you two very simple questions to begin this venture. Show me those passages.

I never implied you should be cursed, PP. I am implying that there is some sort of breakdown somewhere.

Perhaps the problem is that I get mixed messages. If you believe that we will one day stand before God on Judgment Day and be judged for our works as a matter of salvation, then we disagree. And that is what I take from Owen's posts. And you always seem to agree wholeheartedly with him, so I assumed you believed the same.

I read a bit of Owen's journal and from what I read, it seems he believes in justification by faith and works. Do you believe the same? Despite my faith and trust in Christ for my salvation, do you believe I will stand before God one day and be judged for my works as a means of entering heaven?

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 05:10 PM
I never implied you should be cursed, PP. I am implying that there is some sort of breakdown somewhere.

Perhaps the problem is that I get mixed messages. If you believe that we will one day stand before God on Judgment Day and be judged for our works as a matter of salvation, then we disagree. And that is what I take from Owen's posts. And you always seem to agree wholeheartedly with him, so I assumed you believed the same.

I read a bit of Owen's journal and from what I read, it seems he believes in justification by faith and works. Do you believe the same? Despite my faith and trust in Christ for my salvation, do you believe I will stand before God one day and be judged for my works as a means of entering heaven?
WG... you indented the print on that "different gospel" comment. You know the two times that this phrase is used in the Scripture and you know well what it implies. So be it intentional or otherwise... that is what you implied.

As to what I believe... I've been more than clear. I am not Owen and I am not speaking about Owen's post right now. I am speaking of what you said to me.

You say you want to understand what I am saying then let's see how much truth there is to that. Begin by answering those questions that I asked you.

Show me one passage where it says the disobedient will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say the obedient do. Show me one passage where someone practicing sin will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say they don't.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 05:24 PM
Show me one passage where it says the disobedient will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say the obedient do.

I can show you a passage that says that God will go after one who has strayed from Him:

Matthew 18:
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.


Show me one passage where someone practicing sin will inherit the kingdom of God? You know I can show you passages that say they don't.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 05:27 PM
I never implied you should be cursed, PP. I am implying that there is some sort of breakdown somewhere.

Perhaps the problem is that I get mixed messages. If you believe that we will one day stand before God on Judgment Day and be judged for our works as a matter of salvation, then we disagree. And that is what I take from Owen's posts. And you always seem to agree wholeheartedly with him, so I assumed you believed the same.

I read a bit of Owen's journal and from what I read, it seems he believes in justification by faith and works. Do you believe the same? Despite my faith and trust in Christ for my salvation, do you believe I will stand before God one day and be judged by my works as a means of entering heaven?


Now please answer my question, PP (bolded).

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 05:29 PM
I can show you a passage that says that God will go after one who has strayed from Him:

Matthew 18:
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.



1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.And that's it? You are willing to tell someone that it is okay for them to be disobedient because when they are... God's going to come and get you? You are willing to say that they can sin and still inherit the kingdom of God based on that 1 John passage?

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 05:31 PM
And that's it? You are willing to tell someone that it is okay for them to be disobedient because when they are... God's going to come and get you? You are willing to say that they can sin and still inherit the kingdom of God based on that 1 John passage?

You told me to show you one passage, PP. :hmm:

BadDog
Mar 28th 2006, 05:40 PM
I do not want to get into this thread. But I will point out that DIKAIOW "to justify" means "to declare to be righteous and genuinely treat as such." By such God is not saying that I see so-and-so as guilty, but I'm going to pretend he is innocent. It is also not God saying that we deserve to die, but he will have mercy on us and just ignore that sin. Sin must be punished. It has to be paid for or else God would not be a just Judge. And it doesn't mean that we were made righteous in a physical sense of the word obviously since we all sin still - every last one of us. (I don't waste my time with those who say they no longer sin! :P )

It is a legal term. God rightly declares us to be righteous. And we are - because our sins have been paid for. It is similar to the expression "not guilty" proclaimed by judges today. So in a sense God is simply saying "paid in full." I have heard it described as meaning "just-as-if-I'd-never-sinned." Well, that doesn't quite work either. It's as if we did sin and deserve death, but someone else paid that penalty. But even more than that has been done in our behalf.

The OSAS adherrant says that since all of the sins of all time by all of mankind were paid for on the cross, trusting in Christ and accepting His free gift means that we will never be punished for any of our sins since it depends not upon us but upon what Christ did in our place. That's why I try to never say that Christ died "for me" but that he died "in my place." If He died for me, then it may be necessary, but not sufficient.

Of course, we are made righteous, as WD said, but that is because of what Christ did 100%, and not based on anything at all that I have done:

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
("to be" not there in the Greek, but applied for readability. However, "become" is there.)

It is based on this verse that most base their concept of imputed righteousness. Impute simply means "to lay the responsibility or blame for something on someone or to give the credit to someone." So by this theologians mean that God looks at our account and gives credit to us for what Christ actually did. And not only has the penalty for our sins been paid on that red side of the ledger, but to our account - to our ledger - Christ has placed His righteousness on the black side as well...

Romans 4:4, 5 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares righteous the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness.

My faith in Christ is credited to my account as righteousness. This is spoken about Abraham in the OT even. (Genesis 15:6) The ledger idea comes from the word translated as "credited," "reckoned" or "accounted." (logizomai) The only way that we could become the righteousness of God is if every one of our sins were covered by the blood of Christ, not just those up until when we trusted in Him, as some believe.

BD

Quickened
Mar 28th 2006, 05:48 PM
And that's it? You are willing to tell someone that it is okay for them to be disobedient because when they are... God's going to come and get you? You are willing to say that they can sin and still inherit the kingdom of God based on that 1 John passage?

I think that is the problem with this whole debate. We will always be sinful but when someone reads an NOSAS argument they stumble because it comes across like salvation can be lost.

It seems that NOSAS have a problem with OSAS because they see the flaw that just because we come to know Christ that we are forever saved regardless of our actions.

I think it comes down to neither OSAS or NOSAS. But rather to perseverence. The argument could be made about true and false converts. If one is truly in Christ they will persevere regardless of stumbling. If they stumble they seek forgiveness and turn from that sin and run to seek after God.

As where some people may dismiss their actions saying "Christ died for my sins" yet continuously sin the same sin with NO conviction to make them change. The Holy Spirit brings that conviction. The Holy Spirit dwells within God's adoptees.

One could look for the fruits of the spirit spoken of in galatians...


16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. .

By walking with the Lord, lusts of the flesh are not fulfilled.


17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This verse shows how opposite they are.


18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

When you come to know Christ you are led by the Spirit. That is when you are not under law. So if one is still fulfilling works on the flesh you arent led by the Spirit and ARE under the law. (Nonbelievers)

So it comes down to if you are a true or false convert (IMO)

This arguement and/or debate is an impossible one otherwise.

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 05:54 PM
I think that is the problem with this whole debate. We will always be sinful but when someone reads an NOSAS argument they stumble because it comes across like salvation can be lost.

It seems that NOSAS have a problem with OSAS because they see the flaw that just because we come to know Christ that we are forever saved regardless of our actions.

I think it comes down to neither OSAS or NOSAS. But rather to perseverence. The argument could be made about true and false converts. If one is truly in Christ they will persevere regardless of stumbling. If they stumble they seek forgiveness and turn from that sin and run to seek after God.

As where some people may dismiss their actions saying "Christ died for my sins" yet continuously sin the same sin with NO conviction to make them change. The Holy Spirit brings that conviction. The Holy Spirit dwells within God's adoptees.

One could look for the fruits of the spirit spoken of in galatians...

.

By walking with the Lord, lusts of the flesh are not fulfilled.



This verse shows how opposite they are.



When you come to know Christ you are led by the Spirit. That is when you are not under law. So if one is still fulfilling works on the flesh you arent led by the Spirit and ARE under the law. (Nonbelievers)

So it comes down to if you are a true or false convert (IMO)

This arguement and/or debate is an impossible one otherwise.

Amen!!!!



.

BadDog
Mar 28th 2006, 06:08 PM
Peter,


And that's it? You are willing to tell someone that it is okay for them to be disobedient because when they are... God's going to come and get you? You are willing to say that they can sin and still inherit the kingdom of God based on that 1 John passage?

What is being said is NOT that it's "OK" for them to be disobedient! What is said is that there are consequences, but not to include loss of salvation. You're putting words in their mouths expressing it that way that were neither implied nor intended. And inheritance is affected.

BD

Tom Lessing
Mar 28th 2006, 06:13 PM
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

You have often quoted 2 Peter 2:1-11 in defense of the opinion that a saint can lose his/her salvation if he should fail to comply with the spiritual virtues mentioned in this passage. Peter is not discussing the possible loss of salvation but is drawing a comparison between the carnal and the spiritual Christian. Carnality has it's roots in the wrong impression that the saint himself should pursue the virtues mentioned here through much effort and exertion. Failure to progress in the seven areas is the result of a lack of knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ and not because of a failure to persevere. These spiritual virtues follow naturally when a saint grows in grace and in the knowledge and understanding of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18) . Believers who do not progress spiritually and constantly need to be fed milk instead of solid spiritual food are ineffective and unproductive in their knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. They know the Lord in salvation but lack a much needed knowledge of the spiritual growth through our risen Lord at the right hand of God. They know Him as the suffering and vicarious sacrificial Lamb of God but very little of the triumphant High Priest now seated at the right hand of God in heaven. They live their lives from here below trying to pursue the seven spiritual virtues on the staircase of their own efforts in stead of living their lives from on high where they are already seated with Christ at the right hand of God.

Paul's prime purpose in life was to know Christ better and better each day of his life.

[For my determined purpose is] that I many know Him – that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Hom, perceiving and recognizing and understanding [the wonders of His Person] more strongly and more clearly. And that I in the same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [which it exerts over believers]; and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death . . . (Philippians 3:10)
Carnal Christians are satisfied with themselves and their status quo with the result that they become blind and nearsighted. They suffer from spiritual myopia and have forgotten how God had cleansed them from their sins prior to their conversion. In other words, their spiritual myopia leads them back into doing the very sins of which they had been cleansed prior to their conversion. They talk like the world, look like the world, dress like the world and do all kinds of things the world just loves to do. Their nearsightedness causes them to stumble, get up again only to stumble again. Instead of being more than conquerors and gaining a surpassing victory through Him that loved us Romans 8:37), they continually fall prey to the temptations of their own flesh, the world and Satan. Have they lost their salvation. No! but they will forfeit all the glorious rewards that are due to God's children who are overcomes of the flesh, the world and Satan.

What is the calling with which God has called all those whom He has cleansed with His own blood? It is to be like our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in heaven.

[Live as children of obedience [to God]; do not conform yourselves to the evil desires [that governed you] in your former ignorance [when you did not know the requirements of the Gospel]. But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living. Fir it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy.
In verse 10 Peter exhorts us to practice (do) the seven spiritual virtues he mentions so that we may not stumble. The “do” cannot be divorced from the knowledge and understanding each saint ought to have of our Lord Jesus Christ. This knowledge is the driving force (energizing factor) that motivates and encourages his saints to practice these virtues in the light of the privileges they already have in our Lord Who is seated at the right hand of God. Those who have no knowledge or understanding of the glorious position and privileges they have in Christ at the right hand of God tend to look inward to themselves and venture to achieve those privileges in their own strength. The result is that they stumble frequently, grow weary, faint-hearted and discouraged and eventually give them over to their former sins, forgetting that God has already cleansed them of those sins. Our calling is to know God – not only Him crucified – but also the power of His resurrection life that invigorates (dynamites) us into a life of victory and living in the true knowledge of all those spiritual virtues so that we may not stumble.

Sadly NOSAS teaches those who stumble that they have lost their salvation instead of teaching them about the glorious position and privileges all saints already have in Christ Jesus and in this knowledge how to overcome self, the world and Satan.

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 06:16 PM
Now please answer my question, PP (bolded).James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 06:19 PM
You told me to show you one passage, PP. :hmm:And neither of those passages say that the disobedient nor those who practice sin will inherit the kingdom of God eh?

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 06:22 PM
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

PP....can you please give me a yes or no answer? I've noticed that when someone asks you a point blank question like that, you will quote some Scripture with no explanation....and you know good and well that we disagree on what Scripture says 99.999998% of the time.

If you do not believe that we will stand before God and be judged by our works as a means of entering heaven, then we are arguing over nothing. If you do believe that we will stand before God, despite our faith and trust in Christ, and be judged by our works as a means of entering heaven, then we've got some bigger fish to fry here.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 06:30 PM
I think that is the problem with this whole debate. We will always be sinful but when someone reads an NOSAS argument they stumble because it comes across like salvation can be lost.

It seems that NOSAS have a problem with OSAS because they see the flaw that just because we come to know Christ that we are forever saved regardless of our actions.

I think it comes down to neither OSAS or NOSAS. But rather to perseverence. The argument could be made about true and false converts. If one is truly in Christ they will persevere regardless of stumbling. If they stumble they seek forgiveness and turn from that sin and run to seek after God.

As where some people may dismiss their actions saying "Christ died for my sins" yet continuously sin the same sin with NO conviction to make them change. The Holy Spirit brings that conviction. The Holy Spirit dwells within God's adoptees.

One could look for the fruits of the spirit spoken of in galatians...

.

By walking with the Lord, lusts of the flesh are not fulfilled.



This verse shows how opposite they are.



When you come to know Christ you are led by the Spirit. That is when you are not under law. So if one is still fulfilling works on the flesh you arent led by the Spirit and ARE under the law. (Nonbelievers)

So it comes down to if you are a true or false convert (IMO)

This arguement and/or debate is an impossible one otherwise.And I've said it many times... I can certainly live with the POTS teaching although I still think it error in a few points. But what we would agree on... the person that lives like those in the world, no matter their claim of Christian, that person isn't saved now and needs be.

Where we would disagree with in doctrine is simply whether or not that person could have truly been saved at some point in their life. I say that's possible (not always but possible as I agree that many have falsely converted) and POTS folk say it never happened. But in the end we agree they need saved.

As to it always being a "false convert" I've shown a particular passage in Hebrews 10 that shows where one who was sanctified by the blood of Christ could possibly wind up in apostasy. The two responses that I have received so far was from Tom who said yes but they wouldn't go to hell and then from Humbled who said that this wasn't talking about the same person but was speaking of Christ sanctifying Himself. While Tom was correct in his understanding that it was a saved person falling into apostasy... he is incorrect in assuming that destruction doesn't mean eternal destruction. And Humbled... I have no clue how he came to the conclusion he did. That is so far from context that I am really amazed it can't be seen.

And notice that I have asked several folks this and they just ain't responding. That would be because it clearly says that a person that was sanctified fell into apostasy. So folks have to deal with that passage or simply write it off as not applicable. I can't do that.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 06:38 PM
Peter,



What is being said is NOT that it's "OK" for them to be disobedient! What is said is that there are consequences, but not to include loss of salvation. You're putting words in their mouths expressing it that way that were neither implied nor intended. And inheritance is affected.

BD
Follow the discussion with WG and you will see clearly that we were speaking of salvation and my question to her was in line with that discussion.

So I am not putting words in other folks mouths. They know well that I am talking about "salvation". Hence the use of words such as inherit the kingdom of God and hence the very title of the thread eh?

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 06:44 PM
Luke 18:
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This discussion always brings these verses to mind.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 06:55 PM
You have often quoted 2 Peter 2:1-11 in defense of the opinion that a saint can lose his/her salvation if he should fail to comply with the spiritual virtues mentioned in this passage.Actually Tom it would be better said that I present this passage as true eternal security according to Scripture. Perhaps that is being a bit technical but I think it appropriate here.


Peter is not discussing the possible loss of salvation but is drawing a comparison between the carnal and the spiritual Christian. Carnality has it's roots in the wrong impression that the saint himself should pursue the virtues mentioned here through much effort and exertion. Failure to progress in the seven areas is the result of a lack of knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ and not because of a failure to persevere. These spiritual virtues follow naturally when a saint grows in grace and in the knowledge and understanding of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18) .
Well that all sounds well and good Tom but where you run into problems with the text... Peter tells them to add to their faith virtue and to add to virtue knowledge and add to knowledge.... He in no way implies that this is automatically added to you. Quite the contrary actually.



Believers who do not progress spiritually and constantly need to be fed milk instead of solid spiritual food are ineffective and unproductive in their knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. They know the Lord in salvation but lack a much needed knowledge of the spiritual growth through our risen Lord at the right hand of God. They know Him as the suffering and vicarious sacrificial Lamb of God but very little of the triumphant High Priest now seated at the right hand of God in heaven. They live their lives from here below trying to pursue the seven spiritual virtues on the staircase of their own efforts in stead of living their lives from on high where they are already seated with Christ at the right hand of God.And you forgot... their call and election is not sure.


Paul's prime purpose in life was to know Christ better and better each day of his life.
[For my determined purpose is] that I many know Him – that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Hom, perceiving and recognizing and understanding [the wonders of His Person] more strongly and more clearly. And that I in the same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [which it exerts over believers]; and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death . . . (Philippians 3:10)Carnal Christians are satisfied with themselves and their status quo with the result that they become blind and nearsighted. They suffer from spiritual myopia and have forgotten how God had cleansed them from their sins prior to their conversion. In other words, their spiritual myopia leads them back into doing the very sins of which they had been cleansed prior to their conversion. They talk like the world, look like the world, dress like the world and do all kinds of things the world just loves to do. Their nearsightedness causes them to stumble, get up again only to stumble again. Instead of being more than conquerors and gaining a surpassing victory through Him that loved us Romans 8:37), they continually fall prey to the temptations of their own flesh, the world and Satan. Have they lost their salvation. No! but they will forfeit all the glorious rewards that are due to God's children who are overcomes of the flesh, the world and Satan. Yes and Peter speaks of folks like that in that second chapter.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."


What is the calling with which God has called all those whom He has cleansed with His own blood? It is to be like our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in heaven.
[Live as children of obedience [to God]; do not conform yourselves to the evil desires [that governed you] in your former ignorance [when you did not know the requirements of the Gospel]. But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living. Fir it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy.In verse 10 Peter exhorts us to practice (do) the seven spiritual virtues he mentions so that we may not stumble. The “do” cannot be divorced from the knowledge and understanding each saint ought to have of our Lord Jesus Christ. This knowledge is the driving force (energizing factor) that motivates and encourages his saints to practice these virtues in the light of the privileges they already have in our Lord Who is seated at the right hand of God. Those who have no knowledge or understanding of the glorious position and privileges they have in Christ at the right hand of God tend to look inward to themselves and venture to achieve those privileges in their own strength. The result is that they stumble frequently, grow weary, faint-hearted and discouraged and eventually give them over to their former sins, forgetting that God has already cleansed them of those sins. Our calling is to know God – not only Him crucified – but also the power of His resurrection life that invigorates (dynamites) us into a life of victory and living in the true knowledge of all those spiritual virtues so that we may not stumble.

Sadly NOSAS teaches those who stumble that they have lost their salvation instead of teaching them about the glorious position and privileges all saints already have in Christ Jesus and in this knowledge how to overcome self, the world and Satan.

Tom1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

And the one that is a child of the devil is the one described. So I suppose if you figure children of the devil are going to be saved on the day of judgment then I suppose I can understand where you are coming from although I think you're as wrong as rain is wet.

Tom Lessing
Mar 28th 2006, 06:58 PM
I do not want to get into this thread. But I will point out that DIKAIOW "to justify" means "to declare to be righteous and genuinely treat as such." By such God is not saying that I see so-and-so as guilty, but I'm going to pretend he is innocent. It is also not God saying that we deserve to die, but he will have mercy on us and just ignore that sin. Sin must be punished. It has to be paid for or else God would not be a just Judge. And it doesn't mean that we were made righteous in a physical sense of the word obviously since we all sin still - every last one of us. (I don't waste my time with those who say they no longer sin! :P )

It is a legal term. God rightly declares us to be righteous. And we are - because our sins have been paid for. It is similar to the expression "not guilty" proclaimed by judges today. So in a sense God is simply saying "paid in full." I have heard it described as meaning "just-as-if-I'd-never-sinned." Well, that doesn't quite work either. It's as if we did sin and deserve death, but someone else paid that penalty. But even more than that has been done in our behalf.

The OSAS adherrant says that since all of the sins of all time by all of mankind were paid for on the cross, trusting in Christ and accepting His free gift means that we will never be punished for any of our sins since it depends not upon us but upon what Christ did in our place. That's why I try to never say that Christ died "for me" but that he died "in my place." If He died for me, then it may be necessary, but not sufficient.

Of course, we are made righteous, as WD said, but that is because of what Christ did 100%, and not based on anything at all that I have done:

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
("to be" not there in the Greek, but applied for readability. However, "become" is there.)

It is based on this verse that most base their concept of imputed righteousness. Impute simply means "to lay the responsibility or blame for something on someone or to give the credit to someone." So by this theologians mean that God looks at our account and gives credit to us for what Christ actually did. And not only has the penalty for our sins been paid on that red side of the ledger, but to our account - to our ledger - Christ has placed His righteousness on the black side as well...

Romans 4:4, 5 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares righteous the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness.

My faith in Christ is credited to my account as righteousness. This is spoken about Abraham in the OT even. (Genesis 15:6) The ledger idea comes from the word translated as "credited," "reckoned" or "accounted." (logizomai) The only way that we could become the righteousness of God is if every one of our sins were covered by the blood of Christ, not just those up until when we trusted in Him, as some believe.

BD

Amen and Amen!!

Tom

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 07:02 PM
PP....can you please give me a yes or no answer? I've noticed that when someone asks you a point blank question like that, you will quote some Scripture with no explanation....and you know good and well that we disagree on what Scripture says 99.999998% of the time.

If you do not believe that we will stand before God and be judged by our works as a means of entering heaven, then we are arguing over nothing. If you do believe that we will stand before God, despite our faith and trust in Christ, and be judged by our works as a means of entering heaven, then we've got some bigger fish to fry here.Works of the Law we will not be judged by in regard to salvation. I've stated that often and as loud if not louder than many people on this board. But if we practice sin... we will be judged by that. And Paul makes that clear as day and that is in accordance with the gospel that Paul preached.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Tell me what righteous man practices such things as Paul list in this passage as well as the many other passages in the various letters? I know you don't believe opposite of that and am really miffed as to why you fight it so much. Do you think that Paul is implying that those that believe can live such as this and the righteousness of Christ has them covered? Christ didn't die so that we can continue in these things... he did so that we could be free from them.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 07:05 PM
Luke 18:
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This discussion always brings these verses to mind.That is the point of that parable WG. This is not who I am nor is this what I preach.

Anyway... I think I got everyone. If I missed a post folks holler. I had to do some catching up just in time to run a quick errand... so I shall return shortly!

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 07:23 PM
But if we practice sin... we will be judged by that. And Paul makes that clear as day and that is in accordance with the gospel that Paul preached.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Tell me what righteous man practices such things as Paul list in this passage as well as the many other passages in the various letters? I know you don't believe opposite of that and am really miffed as to why you fight it so much. Do you think that Paul is implying that those that believe can live such as this and the righteousness of Christ has them covered? Christ didn't die so that we can continue in these things... he did so that we could be free from them.

LIke I said before, PP....I do not believe that Christ died for us so we can wallow in our sin. I believe fully that upon our conversion that God grants us a heart that seeks Him and a heart that truly desires not to sin.

But PP....I DO sin. A lot. Granted, I do not struggle with issues like homosexuality and the like (thank God), but I will admit fully and without apology that I struggle with sin, even as I trust Christ with everything that I am, and even as I love God with such a passion that the thought of Him brings tears to my eyes.

So where does that lead me, PP? You want to know where I believe it leads me? Right into the arms of my Saviour.

Diggindeeper
Mar 28th 2006, 07:24 PM
There is a post in the Christian Answers section of this board that we all need to see. This guy is asking, "How do i tell a close friend that I am no longer a Christian?"

Okay. He once was. But now, he says he no longer believes. He has "announced" this to his Christian parents, but not to this other person because he hasn't seen the person, and is wondering how to gently break the news, since that person is a devout Christian.

So, my question is: How can anyone say this person will still go to Heaven? He was once saved, but now has turned his back on Christ and Christianity! This, friends, is a prime example of how we can lose our salvation. We can lay down our faith and walk away, saying, "I no longer believe this!"

Comments welcome.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 07:25 PM
So, my question is: How can anyone say this person will still go to Heaven? He was once saved, but now has turned his back on Christ and Christianity! This, friends, is a prime example of how we can lose our salvation. We can lay down our faith and walk away, saying, "I no longer believe this!"

Comments welcome.

I would say he had a false conversion and was never saved to begin with.

mikebr
Mar 28th 2006, 07:30 PM
There is a post in the Christian Answers section of this board that we all need to see. This guy is asking, "How do i tell a close friend that I am no longer a Christian?"

Okay. He once was. But now, he says he no longer believes. He has "announced" this to his Christian parents, but not to this other person because he hasn't seen the person, and is wondering how to gently break the news, since that person is a devout Christian.

So, my question is: How can anyone say this person will still go to Heaven? He was once saved, but now has turned his back on Christ and Christianity! This, friends, is a prime example of how we can lose our salvation. We can lay down our faith and walk away, saying, "I no longer believe this!"

Comments welcome.

How do you know that he hasn't turned his back on a false christianity. Who knows what he has been taught that christianity is. I've turned my back on many things that I have been taught. But that doesn't mean that I have turned my back on Christ. Why don't we go ask Him exactly what he's turned his back on before we kick open the gates of hell and push him in.

Seems to me you have found a poster child to fit your theology. Have you prayed for this person?

Pleroo
Mar 28th 2006, 07:32 PM
There is a post in the Christian Answers section of this board that we all need to see. This guy is asking, "How do i tell a close friend that I am no longer a Christian?"

Okay. He once was. But now, he says he no longer believes. He has "announced" this to his Christian parents, but not to this other person because he hasn't seen the person, and is wondering how to gently break the news, since that person is a devout Christian.

So, my question is: How can anyone say this person will still go to Heaven? He was once saved, but now has turned his back on Christ and Christianity! This, friends, is a prime example of how we can lose our salvation. We can lay down our faith and walk away, saying, "I no longer believe this!"

Comments welcome.

Well, having been there done that myself, I'd say it's not necessarily true that this person isn't/wasn't a Christian. He could very well be going through a faith crisis. He's trying to turn his back on his Savior, but that does not mean the Savior has turned His back on him.

mikebr
Mar 28th 2006, 07:39 PM
Well, having been there done that myself, I'd say it's not necessarily true that this person isn't/wasn't a Christian. He could very well be going through a faith crisis. He's trying to turn his back on his Savior, but that does not mean the Savior has turned His back on him.

Hayyyyymen!:pp:pp:pp

Quickened
Mar 28th 2006, 08:12 PM
And I've said it many times... I can certainly live with the POTS teaching although I still think it error in a few points. But what we would agree on... the person that lives like those in the world, no matter their claim of Christian, that person isn't saved now and needs be.

I agree with this and I think there is Scripture to back this up. Its (to what i see) a choice of living in the flesh and/or living in the spirit but because the two are at war with each other that it is impossable to be of the spirit while living in the flesh (Gal 5:17)


Where we would disagree with in doctrine is simply whether or not that person could have truly been saved at some point in their life. I say that's possible (not always but possible as I agree that many have falsely converted) and POTS folk say it never happened. But in the end we agree they need saved.

I've only heard the term POTS within the last week or two and i need to further research. I need to say that because i am not entirely sure where they stand. I was merely stating in my pervious post what i was getting out of it on my own. Just looking at it and compairing it to what it says and what people are saying.

I do agree that someone could have been saved at some point in their life (as you stated) because that is how you become an apostate. So perhaps that opens up a third option.... saved, never saved and apostate.


As to it always being a "false convert" I've shown a particular passage in Hebrews 10 that shows where one who was sanctified by the blood of Christ could possibly wind up in apostasy. The two responses that I have received so far was from Tom who said yes but they wouldn't go to hell and then from Humbled who said that this wasn't talking about the same person but was speaking of Christ sanctifying Himself. While Tom was correct in his understanding that it was a saved person falling into apostasy... he is incorrect in assuming that destruction doesn't mean eternal destruction. And Humbled... I have no clue how he came to the conclusion he did. That is so far from context that I am really amazed it can't be seen.

I do agree with one becoming apostate. Thats how we will get the great falling away.


And notice that I have asked several folks this and they just ain't responding. That would be because it clearly says that a person that was sanctified fell into apostasy. So folks have to deal with that passage or simply write it off as not applicable. I can't do that.

Neither can i. I think it needs to be openmindedly addressed as it appears in the word of God. It needs to be addressed and further discussed to an increase of the knowledge and context of Gods word and how it affects us today.

What i would like to add is how (IMO) dangerous OSAS is. It makes salvation a big cuddley blanket that wraps us up and comforts us regardless as to our spiritual state and our walk with God (disobidence, etc). Thats where it may seem POTS (which i know nothing of) could be relavant to the discussion.

BadDog
Mar 28th 2006, 08:16 PM
Well, having been there done that myself, I'd say it's not necessarily true that this person isn't/wasn't a Christian. He could very well be going through a faith crisis. He's trying to turn his back on his Savior, but that does not mean the Savior has turned His back on him.

Well, though what WG posted may well be true, we should not assume that. I agree with Pleroo above. Hebrews speaks about some Jewish believers who were thinking of doing the same thing.

BD

Quickened
Mar 28th 2006, 08:16 PM
There is a post in the Christian Answers section of this board that we all need to see. This guy is asking, "How do i tell a close friend that I am no longer a Christian?"

Okay. He once was. But now, he says he no longer believes. He has "announced" this to his Christian parents, but not to this other person because he hasn't seen the person, and is wondering how to gently break the news, since that person is a devout Christian.

So, my question is: How can anyone say this person will still go to Heaven? He was once saved, but now has turned his back on Christ and Christianity! This, friends, is a prime example of how we can lose our salvation. We can lay down our faith and walk away, saying, "I no longer believe this!"

Comments welcome.

From my very limited understanding and knowledge this seems like a perfect example of apostacy to me. Having once receieved the knowledge and then turning away.

But then if he was a true convert how exactly do you openly turn away from something so beautiful? Once we come to the understanding of Christ and Salvation how could one turn their back on it? God is so alive and so is His Word.

So perhaps that person was never a true convert in the beginning.

I read that thread and will openly admit (at the time of my reading it) there was a lack of information for me to give a (what in my opinion would be) a correct answer or something near to that

humbled
Mar 28th 2006, 08:21 PM
From my very limited understanding and knowledge this seems like a perfect example of apostacy to me. Having once receieved the knowledge and then turning away.

But then if he was a true convert how exactly do you openly turn away from something so beautiful? Once we come to the understanding of Christ and Salvation how could one turn their back on it? God is so alive and so is His Word.

So perhaps that person was never a true convert in the beginning.

I read that thread and will openly admit (at the time of my reading it) there was a lack of information for me to give a (what in my opinion would be) a correct answer or something near to thatThat is the question tho, isn't it?

All who are converted have been enlightened....but are all who have been enlightened, converted? I don't think so...

pnewton
Mar 28th 2006, 08:25 PM
That is exactly right.and yet to the same post:
Hi Pnewton. :)

You get absolutely no argument from me on the above. Faith without works is dead faith. I could not agree more.

The sticking issue here is what role works play in our actual salvation.See, WG. You and Peter do not disagree all 99.9999% of the time. :D

If you want to know my understanding of this sticking point is that works of Grace (that is that one does out of love for God and faith in God) must accompany our faith, or we do not have faith. At least the willingness to act in accordance to our belief must be inherent in that belief. Thus, I would say that they play no direct role in salvation. The complete absence of any action that reflects our faith in Christ, however, is a strong indication that what we do not have faith. We do not "think" by faith, we walk by faith.

BadDog
Mar 28th 2006, 08:30 PM
I think the question here is if apostacy is possible for true believers. Among those who hold to OSAS, you'll find those on both sides here, and even some Non-OSAS who say that apostacy can't happen. (Rare) But I don't think that really fits this thread. It needs its own thread.

BD

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 08:45 PM
What i would like to add is how (IMO) dangerous OSAS is. It makes salvation a big cuddley blanket that wraps us up and comforts us regardless as to our spiritual state and our walk with God (disobidence, etc).

And to counter that, I believe N-OSAS can be just as dangerous...encouraging fear, doubt, and uncertainty where there should be none.

humbled
Mar 28th 2006, 08:46 PM
See, WG. You and Peter do not disagree all 99.9999% of the time. :D

That must have been the .0001% :rofl:

Tom Lessing
Mar 28th 2006, 08:48 PM
Actually Tom it would be better said that I present this passage as true eternal security according to Scripture. Perhaps that is being a bit technical but I think it appropriate here.

Well that all sounds well and good Tom but where you run into problems with the text... Peter tells them to add to their faith virtue and to add to virtue knowledge and add to knowledge.... He in no way implies that this is automatically added to you. Quite the contrary actually.

I never said those virtues are added to a saint automatically. Perhaps it would help if you read my post again.


And you forgot... their call and election is not sure.

The word “sure” is used in the sense of a warranty on a property. The godly life and behavior of a saint (the property of God) is the warranty that he has already been cleansed of all his past sins. To make the call and election sure does not mean to establish it or to set it up. It simply means to underscore, ratify, strengthen or to make it steadfast. God has already established the calling and election of a saint when He cleansed him with His blood. Salvation (the already divinely established surety) is not dependent on spiritual growth.


Yes and Peter speaks of folks like that in that second chapter.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The “they” in this passage does not refer to those who are IN the way of righteousness but to those who have KNOWN the way of righteousness. Mane people have heard the Gospel, understood it and even escaped the defilements of the world by molding their lives according to the moral teachings of the Word of God but have never come to the point of being saved. They are good “Christians” who go to church regularly and even partake of Holy Communion regularly but have never come to a true knowledge of salvation. Instead of responding in faith to the knowledge they have received about Jesus Christ which would completely liberate them from the defilement of their own sins and the world, they reject that knowledge. It is to them, the hearers of the Gospel who gain an insight into the Person and work of Jesus Christ but fail to respond to Him in faith, that Peter says it would be better for them if they had never heard the Gospel. What is the holy command? “Repent and believe the Gospel.”


1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

And the one that is a child of the devil is the one described. So I suppose if you figure children of the devil are going to be saved on the day of judgment then I suppose I can understand where you are coming from although I think you're as wrong as rain is wet.

Any sin, no matter how minute or small, makes a person (saved or unsaved) a participator in the works of the devil. Sin cannot be anything else but Satanic. What does the apostle John say in 1 John 1: 8?

If we say we have no sin – refusing to admit that we are sinners – we delude and lead ourselves astray, AND THE TRUTH [which the Gospel represents] IS NOT IN US
How should we reconcile the the two seemingly opposite ideas. First he says we are liars if we say we have no sin and then he says anyone who sins is of the devil. John is using a stark contrast to emphasize the point that the new regenerate nature of a saint, in whom God's seed dwells, is a perfectly new creation and cannot sin. Why do you think Paul said, “Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me . . . Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (Romans 7: 17 and 20) . Was he excusing himself from the things he did not want to do? No! he was affirming the truth that God's seed (own nature) which dwelt in His innermost being (spirit) does not and cannot sin. Nonetheless, the sin (note carefully, not “sins”) principle that abides in everyone of us needs to be put to death (destroyed) by the daily work of Christ's cross in our lives. The point Paul and Peter made was that the child of God who is sinless at the very core of his being (where the seed of God dwells) can never “manifest” through sin as can a child of the devil. An unsaved person can manifest (display) his true nation through sin; a child of God cannot. Whenever a child of God sins he invariably conceals his true identity as a child of God; he does not manifest it.

Am I giving license to sin and encouraging my brethren to sin because their innermost being where God dwells cannot sin? No! I'm encouraging my brethren to put to death the vestiges of sin in their sinful nature as Paul himself exhorted us to do. Remember, ProjectPeter, even the slightest mistrust in Jesus and what He has accomplished on the cross and promised to accomplish for us in the future when He returns, is sin and of the devil.

Tom

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 08:48 PM
That must have been the .0001% :rofl:

I believe in miracles. :P

pnewton
Mar 28th 2006, 09:08 PM
And to counter that, I believe N-OSAS can be just as dangerous...encouraging fear, doubt, and uncertainty where there should be none.I agree, even though I do not believe OSAS. However, I will add the one caveat that if "fear" is the used in the sense of "fear of the Lord", then it is a healthy emotion. When that fear causes us to doubt the faithfulness of God, or think that we have to be good enough (as if that were possible), then we have forgotten the mercy of God.

I know that OSAS can be used as a license for sin, but I think this to be a small minority that use religion more presumptiously than experience genuine conversion.

Diggindeeper
Mar 28th 2006, 09:09 PM
Mikebr, yes I have prayed for the guy who no longer wants to be a Christian...although he made it plain that he does not want or believe in prayer and is searching for something else that might work as a replacement--like a positive attitude or ???

Quickened
Mar 28th 2006, 09:10 PM
And to counter that, I believe N-OSAS can be just as dangerous...encouraging fear, doubt, and uncertainty where there should be none.

I will agree that it is damaging to the walk of a believer. Doubt and uncertainty should never exsist in our Christian walk as it slows spiritual growth.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 09:16 PM
I would say he had a false conversion and was never saved to begin with.You base that on what?

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 09:23 PM
I agree with this and I think there is Scripture to back this up. Its (to what i see) a choice of living in the flesh and/or living in the spirit but because the two are at war with each other that it is impossable to be of the spirit while living in the flesh (Gal 5:17)



I've only heard the term POTS within the last week or two and i need to further research. I need to say that because i am not entirely sure where they stand. I was merely stating in my pervious post what i was getting out of it on my own. Just looking at it and compairing it to what it says and what people are saying.

I do agree that someone could have been saved at some point in their life (as you stated) because that is how you become an apostate. So perhaps that opens up a third option.... saved, never saved and apostate.



I do agree with one becoming apostate. Thats how we will get the great falling away.



Neither can i. I think it needs to be openmindedly addressed as it appears in the word of God. It needs to be addressed and further discussed to an increase of the knowledge and context of Gods word and how it affects us today.

What i would like to add is how (IMO) dangerous OSAS is. It makes salvation a big cuddley blanket that wraps us up and comforts us regardless as to our spiritual state and our walk with God (disobidence, etc). Thats where it may seem POTS (which i know nothing of) could be relavant to the discussion.And let me restate it here too... There are problems with teachings in the NOSAS camp as well. There are many that teach this that heap such condemnation on others that they do cause them to live a life of extreme fear and uncertainty. That can be equally dangerous because a ditch is a ditch... no matter which side of the path it might lie on.

ProjectPeter
Mar 28th 2006, 09:26 PM
And to counter that, I believe N-OSAS can be just as dangerous...encouraging fear, doubt, and uncertainty where there should be none.I agree with that.

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 09:27 PM
You base that on what?

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

pnewton
Mar 28th 2006, 09:29 PM
And let me restate it here too... There are problems with teachings in the NOSAS camp as well. There are many that teach this that heap such condemnation on others that they do cause them to live a life of extreme fear and uncertainty. See, there are all sort of things we agree on. I think it is a postive help to any discussion to recognize the pitfalls that exist in taking things to extreme, and illogical, conclusions. At least we do not make strawmen of each others postitions.

pnewton
Mar 28th 2006, 09:32 PM
BTW- A great deal off topic, but, I thought as much as I have posted on this particular topic this would be an apt place for my post:
#1000!:bounce:

Whispering Grace
Mar 28th 2006, 09:33 PM
Hey cool......a huge congrats on the Big 1000, PNewton!!! :pp :pp