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moonglow
Apr 21st 2006, 05:41 PM
Daniel lines up perfectly with the life of Jesus if anyone has ever studied this...I have some good links on it...most are quiet long though..trying to find something shorter to post:

http://mikeblume.com/treece.htm
What Is the Truth About "the Prince"
in the 70 Weeks of Daniel?

http://www.caledonianfire.org/caledonianfire/docs/daniel.htm
Daniel

http://www.historicism.com/mauro/mauroI-3.htm
DETAILS OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS

http://mikeblume.com/nogap.htm
If Daniel’s 70th Week Was Fulfilled Without a Gap,
Why is the Destruction of Jerusalem (40 years after the cross)
Inserted in the 70 Weeks?


Such a question is usually asked by folks who are not familiar with the wording of Daniel 9:24-27. The destruction of Jerusalem is not said to occur before the 70th Week of Daniel.

The reason people assume it is, is due to a misunderstanding of the following verse:

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Verse 26 mentions 62 weeks. It is understood by all familiar with Daniel 9 that a previous 7 weeks, from verse 25, are already noted, and meant to be considered as well, in reading about the time after the 62 weeks. The coming of Messiah followed the 7 + 62 weeks, or after 69 weeks.

At any rate, this verse is thought to indicate that this is simply saying that all the events listed in verse 26 must occur after the 69th week, and before the 70th week. These events include the event when Messiah would come and be cut off, or crucified, and Jerusalem would be destroyed. The error in this reasoning is that Daniel did not say that all of this would occur before the 70th Week. He simply said Messiah would come after the 7 + 62 Weeks, and then added some incidental issues about the Messiah, including His cutting off and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem.

This last one is probably the shortest of them all for those that don't have the time to read one of the longer ones. I haven't read through them all either actually.

God bless

Banzy
Apr 21st 2006, 06:59 PM
Amen.

And when you see that the 70 weeks are fulfilled, then the whole pre, mid, and post theories come crashing down. Why? Because this is their grandfather clause, a yet to be fulfilled 70th week.

All one has to do is read Isaiah 53 along with most of Hebrews and see that the 6 things listed in Daniel 9:24 have all been accomplished, mostly by Jesus's work on the Cross.

David Taylor
Apr 21st 2006, 07:13 PM
Double Amen!!




Although the popular view of the day in bookstores and TV Evangelistic circles is that the 70th week of Daniel is a future event; broke off and to be separated from the first 1-69 weeks by a gap of 2000+ years;

Does Daniel 9 explicitly teach this unnatural, unliteral Gap?
Does the OT teach this anywhere else?
Does the NT teach this either?

Or is it possible the NT teaches contrarily to this popular view; and instead; teaches that the entire set of 70 weeks were fulfilled together as one unit; by Christ at His first coming?

The most natural, clear and literal interpretation would be to expect the 70th week prophecy to be a single unit; and for the 70th week to be completed following the same precedence that the weeks 1,2,3,4...68, 69 were completed.

And, since Jesus and His first-coming and crucifixion is described as being apart of the 70 weeks prophecies; it is more logical and literal to expect that all of the 70 weeks prophecy pertained in some form of fulfillment to Jesus First Coming which occurred during that 70week period.

Let's look at Daniel 9:24-27's verses and see if they do not ALL show a literal, plain, and logical fullfillment during Jesus time; not some future speculative; clock-stopping time 2000+ years in the future...

Daniel 9:24
************************************************** ****************
1. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city"
************************************************** ****************
You got 70weeks of years; or 490 literal and consecutive years left for Messiah to Come and accomplish His goals which are explained hereafter; no mention of a clock or any gaps.



************************************************** ****************
2. "to finish the transgression"
************************************************** ****************
(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Hebrews 9:15 "That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant."

John 4:34 "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."

Romans 04:15 "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace"




************************************************** ****************
3. "to make an end of sins"
************************************************** ****************
(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

I John 3:5 "And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not"

2 Cor 5:21 "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."




************************************************** ****************
4. "to make reconciliation for iniquity"
************************************************** ****************
(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

2 Corin 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"



************************************************** ****************
5. "to bring in everlasting righteousness"
************************************************** ****************
(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Matthew 3:15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."

Romans 5:21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Hebrews 1:08 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."



************************************************** ****************
6. "to seal up the vision and prophecy"
************************************************** ****************
(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Luke 18:31 "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished."

Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Matt 26:56 "But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."




************************************************** ****************
7. "to anoint the Most Holy"
************************************************** ****************

(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Acts 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."

Acts 04:27 "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed"

Luke 04:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel"





Daniel 9:25
************************************************** ****************
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."
************************************************** ************

1. From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah's comingis 483 years (69 weeks). Ezra 7:12-26
************************************************** ****************
(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)




Daniel 9:26
************************************************** ****************
1. "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,but not for himself"
************************************************** ****************
(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Isaiah 53:7 "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."

Acts 8:32 "The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth."




************************************************** ****************
"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
************************************************** ****************

(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Jesus predicted the temple would be destroyed; both figuratively referring to His Body; and literally through the later hands of the Roman General Titus

John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Luke 21:5 "And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come(Roman General Titus), in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."




Daniel 9:27
************************************************** ****************
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"
************************************************** ****************

(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Hebrews 9:20 "Then he said, 'This blood confirms the covenant God has made with you.'"

Galatians 3:17 "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ"

Mark 14:24 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many"

Matthew 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Luke 22:20 "After supper he took another cup of wine and said, "This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you--an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you."

Romans 11:27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Hebrews 12:24 "And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel."

Hebrews 13:20 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant"






************************************************** ****************
"in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the
oblation to cease"
************************************************** ****************

(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Jesus Ministry lasted half of 7 years or 3.5 years; because John's Gospel records Him participating in 3 passovers as an adult. (John 2:13, 6:4, 11:55); showing that in the midst of the final 70th week; (verse 9:26 says He will be cut-off "AFTER" the 69th week; which necessitates Him being cut-off sometime within the 70th week. Likewise, we see that when Jesus was cut-off; the sacrifice and oblation was ceased; sin's debt was paid forevermore at that moment; in His blood!

Mark 15:37 "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."

Hebrews 10:2 "For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever..For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Hebrews 10:18 "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"

Hebrews 9:26 "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."





************************************************** ****************
"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
************************************************** ****************

(Jesus fulfilled this at Calvary circa 33 AD)

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Acts 17:26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation"








So if you want to build speculations and guesswork on what the 70 weeks prophecy means; and if you want to introduce unbiblical clocks; stopwatches; gaps; theories; etc....you are free to make that choice.

You can do that; or you can choose to take Daniel 9's 70th week in a plain, logical, literal sense; and allow the above 34 New Testament verses that show the fullfillment of Daniel chapter 9's 70 weeks to build your understanding.

I once believed the same thing you do too;
...about a prophetic clock that had stopped;
...and a 7 year/week still left to go cast 2000 years into the future

But when I tested that view against scripture;

I found this view I had been taught and is quite popular these days simply wasn't grounded from scripture; but was added into the scriptures from some external speculations.

Instead I found the fulfillment of that 70 week passage throughout the New Testament writings above that pointed to Calvary.....I realized I needed to change my view; and get rid of my old, flawed notions.

I hope the Lord can use His words above on this matter to help others who may be travelling the same path I did do the same!

moonglow
Apr 21st 2006, 08:29 PM
That was a truly excellent post David Taylor...can I have your premission to copy it for future use? I will give you credit for it as the author, of course. This is what I was looking for...the verses in the OT lining up with the verse in the NT on this that doesn't droll on forever...:lol:

I also grew up being taught about the 'gap' in the 70's weeks in church...most that believe this, believe it because they were raised with it being taught. I see how when the word 'generation' is used, everyone assumed the generation Jesus was in, EXCEPT when it comes to that verse in Matthew 24....

Matthew 24:34
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place

Instead people twist and turn it to mean something else....

Anyway that was a great post, and I truly enjoyed reading it. :)


God bless

wpm
Apr 21st 2006, 09:05 PM
Guys

Can I add an amen to your posts. The futuristic decapitation of an harmonious prophecy doesn't add up. Anyway, as has already been said, what was predicted was perfectly fulfilled at Christ's earthly ministry.

If you were directed to go to the next county and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

The unitary 70 weeks are clearly split into 3 (integral) parts.

7 = 49 yrs
62 = 434 yrs
1 = 7 yrs

Total = 490 (harmonious unitary) yrs

Paul

Kahtar
Apr 21st 2006, 09:31 PM
David Taylor,
I found your assessment quite interesting. I would like for you, if you would, to clear up a couple questions I have though, in the following verses.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First question:
Obviously there is a difference of opinion regarding the identity of 'he' in verse 27. Does that 'he' refer to the Messiah, or to the 'prince that shall come', and how do you make the distinction?
Second question:
Whoever the 'he' is, it says he confirms the covenant for one week, not part of it. If the Messiah dies in midweek, thus bringing an end to the sacrifice and oblation, then how can he confirm the covenant for one week? Or, what took place during the next 3 1/2 years after His crucifixion that can be a;considered Him confirming the covenant, and b;came to an end when the 3 1/2 years was finished?

Gw butler
Apr 21st 2006, 09:56 PM
The 70 Weeks of Daniel 9

is

70 Jubilees!!!http://www.bibleinsight.com/70/not490.gif (http://www.bibleinsight.com/daniel9.html)

The text of the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy hasbeen a treasure map and many have struggledwithout success trying to find its gems.http://www.bibleinsight.com/70/map.gifThe vital clue has been:- The Hebrew word 'weeks' in Daniel 9:24,25,26 is present in the 'masculine' form!This has generated much confusion, however the following explains theimplications of this grammatical form. (The masculine form is commonlyreferred to as representing a 'heptad'.)http://www.bibleinsight.com/70/female.gifFeminine form (normal ) - eg 70 x (single weeks)http://www.bibleinsight.com/70/weeksfem.gifhttp://www.bibleinsight.com/70/male.gifMasculine form (unusual) - eg 70 x (multiple weeks)!!!http://www.bibleinsight.com/70/weeksmas.gif

Gw butler
Apr 21st 2006, 10:13 PM
THE SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY.
A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING THE TWO COMINGS OF MESSIAH.

Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks was an an important key to understanding the first coming of Messiah. And it will also be an important key to the Second Coming of Messiah at the climax of this age.
The prophecy of the Seventy Weeks of Daniel is not really all that complicated. The timeline has two parts. The first segment is a period of 7 plus 62 weeks or 69 weeks. These are 69 heptads or "sevens" of biblical years. That 69 week timespan of 69 X 7 = 483 biblical years began with e the Edict of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah. And it terminated precisely 483 x 360 = 173,880 days later on the day of the day of first coming (http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks6.htm) of Christ to His Holy city as Messiah, the suffering servant. It was Palm Sunday.
The second segment, the 70th week, is yet to come. It will be a period of one "seven" or seven biblical years. This will terminate on the Day of the Lord (http://endtimepilgrim.org/atonement.htm). This, of course, will be the Second Coming of Christ as Messiah.
This time He will not be coming as the Suffering Servant.
He will be the Conquering King (http://endtimepilgrim.org/bozrahdeliv.htm).
It is very important for Christian believers to understand that the 70th Week of Daniel is yet future. It will be the final seven years of this age. It is a period upon which details from Daniel and details from Revelation and other scriptures can be laid out. This then gives us an accurate timeline (http://endtimepilgrim.org/chart2.htm)of end-time events. WHY WE MUST UNDERSTAND THE REALITY AND PURPOSE OF THE FUTURE 70TH WEEK.

This truth of the future 70th week of Daniel is a valuable key to the endtime. This is an extremely important piece of information for Christians to have nailed down. They should become fully persuaded in their minds about the two parts of the Seventy Week Prophecy. Seven biblical years of 360 days are yet to run. If we do our homework here and handle the Holy Scriptures faithfully it should be no problem for us to arrive at this important truth.

Kahtar
Apr 21st 2006, 10:23 PM
Okay, another question I have is this:
The Messiah was to come at the end of the 69 weeks. Is that referring to the time of His birth, or the beginning of His ministry?

moonglow
Apr 21st 2006, 10:24 PM
GW: It is very important for Christian believers to understand that the 70th Week of Daniel is yet future. It will be the final seven years of this age. It is a period upon which details from Daniel and details from Revelation and other scriptures can be laid out.

Apparently you did NOT read my first post or any of the following posts, let alone the links...we do NOT agree with the twisting of scriptures and jumping through hoops AND assumption it takes to believe your views...

Closes minds learn nothing.

Gw butler
Apr 21st 2006, 10:25 PM
One of course in til his Ministry begins and his death, the other is what is occuring now, and it ends also at his coming the second time

Gw butler
Apr 21st 2006, 10:28 PM
Closes minds learn nothing....


Yep you are right, but it depends on whose mind is closed

moonglow
Apr 21st 2006, 10:33 PM
I already studied the stuff you believe in.....was raised on it actually. Until I started studying scriptures for myself and realizing it didn't add up...

That is the problem...not doing the studying of God's word without our minds being slanted towards a certain view to start with...it causes us to see what we want to see, and ingore what doesn't fit. No scripture, or parts of it should ever be ingored. That is why I was refering too on closed minds..

Gw butler
Apr 21st 2006, 10:38 PM
And my conclusion is vastly different from most of the Church, The Bible simply dosent say many things the church believes.

Gw butler
Apr 21st 2006, 10:41 PM
I disagree with many things mainly because the Bible dosent support it. The things it dosent most christians support, so it might be a good thing, for me and most of you. All my posting does is lead to conflict


pS, one thread was even shut down because it was said I was unchristian, or something to that effect

wpm
Apr 21st 2006, 10:44 PM
David Taylor,
I found your assessment quite interesting. I would like for you, if you would, to clear up a couple questions I have though, in the following verses.


First question:
Obviously there is a difference of opinion regarding the identity of 'he' in verse 27. Does that 'he' refer to the Messiah, or to the 'prince that shall come', and how do you make the distinction?

I will try and answer this if that is ok. Firstly, “the people of the prince that shall come” is specifically speaking of a plural group of people rather than a singular man. Secondly, nowhere in Daniel 9 does it remotely suggest the insertion of 2,000-years+ time interval.

(1) It is important to note, the focus of the passage is “the people of the prince” that fight not “the prince” who is in-charge, as many futurists imagine.
(2) This company notably destroy both the “the city and the sanctuary,” not just the city as Futurists also argue.
(3) The “end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” The war described is so devastating it leaves both Jerusalem and the sanctuary completely desolate.

Q. Who are “the people of the prince that shall come”?
A. The Roman soldiers.

The term “the people of the prince that shall come” is simply stating ‘the Roman soldiers’. The reading is not remotely concentrated upon “the prince that shall come” as Futurists try and insist but rather “the people of the prince that shall come.” Daniel 9:26 is essentially stating, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and 'the Roman soldiers’ shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

Q. What has the person[s] inflicting harm in Daniel 9:26 to perform?

A. “Destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

Q. Who performed this? A “prince” or the “people of the prince”?

A. The “people of the prince.”

The prince, therefore, is not even necessarily directly involved in the assault upon the city predicted. Here is an example: ‘the troops of George Bush invaded Baghdad, like a flood, and destroyed the city’.

Firstly, George Bush is not the active player in this event or the main focus in this scenario, the American troops are.
Secondly, George Bush did not set his foot in Baghdad during the invasion; he was thousands of miles away in the US.

What this illustration shows is that the US troops are the focus of this story, not George Bush. Also, it was they that performed the said offensive by invading Baghdad like a flood and thus ‘destroyed the city'. Whilst this is going on, George Bush is safe in the Oval Office administering national affairs, and firmly in the background in the narrative.

The reference to “the people of the prince that shall come” is simply saying, Titus’ (or whatever Roman general one believes was in-charge in AD70) army (which were evidently the Roman soldiers) “shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” Whilst Titus is the prince of the people in view, it is not his part that is primary here but his army. He or no end-time anti-Christ or any other prince are the central subject-matter here, it is the Roman soldiers. The reading plainly states, “the people of the prince that shall come.” To sustain their paradigm, Futurists normally omit the important prefix “the people” from the unitary phrase and merely quote “the prince that shall come.” This can be misleading and divert us from the actual person[s] in view. Whilst they must ignore this essential prefix in order to allow their interpretation to fit, it doesn't do justice to the text.

There is only one Prince that is the focal-point in this whole passage – the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).




Second question:
Whoever the 'he' is, it says he confirms the covenant for one week, not part of it. If the Messiah dies in midweek, thus bringing an end to the sacrifice and oblation, then how can he confirm the covenant for one week? Or, what took place during the next 3 1/2 years after His crucifixion that can be a;considered Him confirming the covenant, and b;came to an end when the 3 1/2 years was finished?



Christ’s atonement terminated all sacrifices forever, thus fulfilling Daniel 9:27, which said, “And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 yrs): and in the midst of the week(3 ½ yrs)he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

It is important to firstly recognise that the word “for” does not exist in the original and is only added to affix expression. There is therefore no preposition in the text, as the futurists would try and argue. Moreover, the words “one week” do not refer to the actual duration of the covenant mentioned, but rather to the actual time when it was confirmed.

The original Hebrew for Daniel 9:27a reads:

[01396] gabar 'Shall Confirm'
[01285] bariyth 'Covenant'
[07227] rab 'with many'
[0259] echad 'one'
[07620] shabuwa 'week'

The confirmation was simply to occur within the 7 year period, rather than ‘for’ 7 years as some suggest.

This whole passage is focused upon Calvary and the irreversible affect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. The first thing we see is that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centred on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.

God Almighty, through the person of His Son. As Jesus was dying, he cried: “It is finished.”At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. No future sacrifice can or will ever finish transgression; it was completely and perfectly finished at Calvary. God was completely satisfied with this spotless once all-sufficient sacrifice of His own dear Son and thus immediately and eternally rent the veil of the temple in twain. Calvary therefore finished the imperfect sacrifices. Mark 15:37 records, “Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

Paul

DaveS
Apr 21st 2006, 10:55 PM
I don't mean to sidetrack us away from Kahtar's questions above. Please address those first. But then I have another passage that trips me up when trying to make Daniel 9 a reference to Christ...

Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

My question is, If that's Christ, then who is this...

Dan. 11:21 ¶ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person...

23 ...he shall work deceitfully:

28 ...and his heart shall be against the holy covenant;

30 ...and have indignation against the holy covenant...and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


Daniel 11:31 looks an awful lot like Daniel 9:27. I'm not sure how we can say that Dan.9 is a reference to Christ while Dan.11 is referring to some different "vile person".

Dan.9 and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

Dan.11...shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Antiochus Epiphanes not withstanding, it seems to me that Daniel 11 answers the question of the identity of "he" in 9:27, and "he" just doesn't look like Christ to me.

Btw, I really am open to thoughts on the subject. These are just mine at present.

wpm
Apr 21st 2006, 11:12 PM
I don't mean to sidetrack us away from Kahtar's questions above. Please address those first. But then I have another passage that trips me up when trying to make Daniel 9 a reference to Christ...

Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

My question is, If that's Christ, then who is this...

Dan. 11:21 ¶ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person...

23 ...he shall work deceitfully:

28 ...and his heart shall be against the holy covenant;

30 ...and have indignation against the holy covenant...and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


Daniel 11:31 looks an awful lot like Daniel 9:27. I'm not sure how we can say that Dan.9 is a reference to Christ while Dan.11 is referring to some different "vile person".

Dan.9 and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

Dan.11...shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Antiochus Epiphanes not withstanding, it seems to me that Daniel 11 answers the question of the identity of "he" in 9:27, and "he" just doesn't look like Christ to me.

Btw, I really am open to thoughts on the subject. These are just mine at present.

Daniel 9:27 says, “And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 yrs): and in the midst of the week (3 ½ yrs) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (God being satisfied with the once all-sufficient sacrifice), and for the overspreading of abominations (the idolatrous continuation of the now abolished imperfect temple sacrifices) he shall make it (the temple and its ordinances) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the temple and its ordinances).”


Hebrews 10:11-12, 26 clearly says, “And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God…there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

Whilst Paul made this important pronouncement during this 40 year probationary period and before the temple was finally made desolate, this Divine reality was already existing and will remain in place until the glorious “consummation.” The duration of this desolation lasts until the Lord’s glorious Second Advent. This reading declares, “he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation.”


Paul

Kahtar
Apr 21st 2006, 11:46 PM
I understand that the 'people of the prince' is referring to those who follow the prince. My question was, who is the prince?
Further, it is not the people of the prince who confirm the covenant for one week, it is 'he', whoever that is, and I want to know who 'he' is.

I understand that you believe the people of the prince to be the Roman soldiers, and thus the prince would of necessity be Roman.
My question was, is 'he' in verse 27 referring to the prince, or to the Messiah?
And, how do you make the distinction? In other words, if the 'he' is referring to the Messiah, how do you know that? Or if the 'he' is referring to the prince, how do you know that?

As regarding the 'one week', on the one hand it has been stated that the weeks refer to years, and that they are literally 490 years, but on the other hand, when we get to verse 27, all of a sudden we're not talking about a literal seven years of confirming the covenant, but only a suggestion that this thing takes place some time within that seven year period.
Seems to me we need to be a little more consistant.
If the Messiah only confirmed the covenant for 3 1/2 years, I would think it would have stated that, instead of 7 years, or, if the covenant was confirmed only on one day in the middle of that 7 years, I would think it would say that he would confirm the covenant in the midst of the week, just like it said he would bring an end to sacrifice in the midst.
With or without the word 'for' in there, it says the same thing. He confirmed the covenant one week.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 22nd 2006, 12:28 AM
If you follow chapter eleven, that seems to be talking more about the Seleucidae and how they oppressed the Jewish state also.

DaveS
Apr 22nd 2006, 12:48 AM
Daniel 9:27 says, “And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 yrs): and in the midst of the week (3 ½ yrs) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (God being satisfied with the once all-sufficient sacrifice), and for the overspreading of abominations (the idolatrous continuation of the now abolished imperfect temple sacrifices) he shall make it (the temple and its ordinances) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the temple and its ordinances).”


Hebrews 10:11-12, 26 clearly says, “And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God…there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

Whilst Paul made this important pronouncement during this 40 year probationary period and before the temple was finally made desolate, this Divine reality was already existing and will remain in place until the glorious “consummation.” The duration of this desolation lasts until the Lord’s glorious Second Advent. This reading declares, “he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation.”


Paul
Point taken, wpm. But that doesn't address the striking similarities of chapter 11's "vile person" with the "he" of chapter 9.

DaveS
Apr 22nd 2006, 12:57 AM
If you follow chapter eleven, that seems to be talking more about the Seleucidae and how they oppressed the Jewish state also.Sorry sp, I'm unfamiliar with the Seleucidae. Can you give me a quick thumbnail?

I just keep thinking about the "two or three witnesses" rule of interpretation and comparing scripture with scripture. If chapter 11 isn't an expansion on 9:27, that is, if the vile person of chapter 11 isn't the "he" of chapter 9, then it all seems unnecessarily confusing. The similarities between the acts of these two players (9:27 vs. 11:31) are just too striking to dismiss, imo.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 22nd 2006, 01:09 AM
Its quite possebly that the covenant was broken by the Jewish rejection of the preaching of the Apostles, as recorded in Acts. One of the thems of Luke and Acts is the Jewish rejection of Jesus, and then Of God's rejection of them and their temple........This would affect how the covenant was given, but broken by the Jewish people.

moonglow
Apr 22nd 2006, 01:30 AM
Dave S, I want to attemp to answer your question...I am not as good as some of these other poster in just putting it all together in my own words, so I tend to use others to answer like in the way of bible commentaries...:rolleyes: Eventually as I learn this more I will be able to put it all in my own words. Something I would like you to consider when you are comparing Daniel 9 with Daniel 11 on this...

Throughout the bible, especially in the OT we see allowing satan to have his way with a person or nation...when God withdraws His protection. Over and over we see the Lord draw the Jews to Him..protect them and love them only to see them turn around and get involved with a pagan nation and start woshipping idols...long list of sins as you know...so God would withdraw (usually after warning them first though in which they usually ingored him) and some mean nation would come in and destroy their city and temples and take them as slaves...and the cycle would continue on. (you would think they would learn! lol)

Anyway I would like you to look at these two passages...I realize they seem WAY of topic but I am using them to try to show you something:

1 Chronicles 21
David Takes a Census
1 Satan rose up against Israel and caused David to take a census of the Israelites. 2 David gave these orders to Joab and his commanders: "Take a census of all the people in the land--from Beersheba in the south to Dan in the north--and bring me the totals so I may know how many there are."

2 Samuel 24
David Takes a Census
1 Once again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he caused David to harm them by taking a census. "Go and count the people of Israel and Judah," the LORD told him.

Now we know God would not make David do something then punish him for it...satan had tempted David and David gave in...boasting his army instead of relying on God to take care of them...so God's became angry then...I honestly wish we could all read the orginally lanuage instead of struggling with these translations...I think something is lost in translation which caused the sentence to be phrased wrongly and adds to confusion...blah.

So what Daniel is talking about is the same event pretty much caused by TWO different things going on. Because of what happened to Christ...God withdrew His protection from the Jews and allowed its destruction. (I am probably confusing you more so just read the commentary..lol)


Dan.9 and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009

Adam Clark

Verse 26. And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

By the "prince" Titus, the son of Vespasian, is plainly intended; and "the people of that prince" are no other than the Romans, who, according to the prophecy, destroyed the sanctuary, hakkodesh, the holy place or temple, and, as a flood, swept away all, till the total destruction of that obstinate people finished the war.

Verse 27. And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate
This clause is remarkably obscure. kenaph shikkutsim meshomem, "And upon the wing of abominations causing amazement." This is a literal translation of the place; but still there is no determinate sense. A Hebrew MS., written in the thirteenth century, has preserved a very remarkable reading here, which frees the place from all embarrassment. Instead of the above reading, this valuable MS. has ubeheychal yihyey shikkuts; that is, "And in the temple (of the Lord) there shall be abomination." This makes the passage plain, and is strictly conformable to the facts themselves, for the temple was profaned; and it agrees with the prediction of our Lord, who said that the abomination that maketh desolate should stand in the holy place, Matthew 24:15, and quotes the words as spoken διαδανιηλτουφροφητου, by Daniel the prophet. That the above reading gives the true sense, there can be little doubt, because it is countenanced by the most eminent ancient versions.

The Vulgate reads, Et erit in templo abominatio, "And in the temple there shall be abomination."

The Septuagint, καιεπιτοιερονβδελυγματωνερημωσεων, "And upon the temple there shall be the abomination of desolation."

The Arabic, "And upon the sanctuary there shall be the abomination of ruin."

The above reading is celebrated by J. D. Michaelis, Epist. De Ebdom. Dan., p. 120: Vix insignius exemplum reperiri posse autumem, ostensuro in codicibus Hebraeis latere lectiones dignissimas quae eruantur, think, hardly be found, to show that various readings lie hid in Hebrew MSS., which are most worthy of being exhibited." Vid. Bib. Hebr. KENNICOTT, Dis. Gen.

I have only to add that this mode of reckoning years and periods by weeks is not solely Jewish. Macrobius, in his book on Scipio's dream, has these remarkable words: Sed a sexta usque ad septimam septimanam fit quidem diminutio, sed occulta, et quae detrimentum suum aperta defectione non prodat: ideo nonnullarum rerumpublicarum hic mos est, ut post sextam ad militiam nemo cogatur; Somn. Scip., lib. i. c. vi., in fine. "From the sixth to the seventh week, there is a diminution of strength; but it is hidden, and does not manifest itself by any outward defect. Hence it was the custom in some republics not to oblige a man to go to the wars after the sixth week, i.e., after forty-two years of age."

Having now gone through the whole of this important prophecy, and given that interpretation which the original seemed best to warrant, I shall next proceed to notice the principal various readings found in the Collections of Kennicott and De Rossi, with those from my own MSS., which the reader may collate with the words of the common printed text.

Verse 24.

Verse 25.

Verse 26.

Verse 27.

Of the whole passage Houbigant gives the following translation:-

Verse 24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and the city of thy sanctuary:

That sin may be restrained, and transgressions have an end;

That iniquity may be expiated, and an everlasting righteousness brought in;

That visions and prophecies may be sealed up, and the Holy of holies anointed.

Verse 25. Know therefore and understand:-

From the edict which shall be promulgated, to return and rebuild Jerusalem, there shall be seven weeks.

Then it shall be fully rebuilt, with anxiety, in difficult times.

Thence, to the Prince Messiah, there shall be sixty-two weeks.

Verse 26. And after sixty-two weeks the Messiah shall be slain, and have no justice.

Afterwards he shall waste the city and the sanctuary, by the prince that is to come.

And his end shall be in straits; and to the end of the war desolation is appointed.

Verse 27. And for one week he shall confirm a covenant with many;

And in the middle of the week he shall abrogate sacrifice and offering;

And in the temple there shall be the abomination of desolation,

Until the ruin which is decreed rush on after the desolation.

In this translation there are some peculiarities.

Instead of "the street shall be built again, and the wall," Daniel 9:25, he translates (with the prefix beth instead of vau in the latter word,) "it shall be fully (the city and all its walls) rebuilt with anxiety."

Instead of "but not for himself," he translates, "Nor shall justice be done him; " supposing that "justice" was originally in the verse.

Instead of "the people of the prince," Daniel 9:26, he translates "by the prince," using im as a preposition, instead of am, "the people."

Instead of "and for the overspreading," he translates "in the temple; " following the Septuagint, καιεπιτοιερον. This rendering is at least as good as ours: but see the marginal readings here, and the preceding notes.
Dan.11...shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

***********************************

Dan.11...shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.



http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=011

Adam Clark

Verse 31. And arms shall stand on his part
After Antiochus, arms, that is, the Romans, shall stand up: for arms in this prophecy every where denote military power; and standing up, the power in activity and conquering. Both Sir Isaac Newton and Bp. Newton agree, that what follows is spoken of the Romans. Hitherto Daniel has described the actions of the kings of the north and of the south, that of the kings of Syria and Egypt; but, upon the conquest of Macedon by the Romans, he has left off describing the actions of the Greeks, and begun to describe those of the Romans in Greece, who conquered Macedon, Illyricum, and Epirus, in the year of the era of Nabonassar, 580. Thirty-five years after, by the will of Attalus, they inherited all Asia westward of Mount Taurus; sixty-five years after they conquered the kingdom of Syria, and reduced it into a province; and thirty-four years after they did the same to Egypt. By all these steps the Roman arms stood up over the Greeks; and after ninety-five years more, by making war upon the Jews, they polluted the sanctuary of strength,-the temple, (so called by reason of its fortifications,) and took away the daily sacrifice and placed the abomination that maketh desolate, or of the desolator; for that this abomination was thus placed after the time of Christ, appears from Matthew 24:15.

In the sixteenth year of the Emperor Adrian, A.D. 132, they placed this abomination by building a temple to Jupiter Capitolinus, where the temple of God in Jerusalem stood; upon which the Jews, under Barchocab, rose up against the Romans. But in this war they had fifty cities demolished, nine hundred and fifty of their best towns destroyed, and eighty thousand men were slain by the sword; and in the end of the war, A.D. 136, were banished Judea on pain of death; and thenceforth the land became desolate. See Observations on Daniel, and Bp. Newton on the Prophecies.

Kahtar
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:21 AM
So if the 'he' in 27 is referring to the Messiah, and he is cut of in the middle of that last week, or seven years, what took place in the remainder of that 490 years that brings that whole prophecy to an end? The temple wasn't destroyed until AD70, 35 years afterward, so that does not fit within the 490 years. The abomination spoken of (temple to Jupiter Capitolinus) wasn't built until AD132, so that doesn't fit within the 490 years either.

Perhaps you think I am just trying to be difficult here, but I am not. I am seriously trying to understand this. If you want me or anyone else to seriously consider this, then please answer these questions.


From what I gathered from SP's post, Daniel 9 and Daniel 11 are two separate events? Can you support that any further, or is it just guesswork?

Junietta
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:42 AM
i think this moment right here ended that last week.
Acts 13:44-48
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
KJV

Kahtar
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:46 AM
You may very well be right Junietta, but do you have anything further to support that? Otherwise, it remains 'what I think'.

Junietta
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:52 AM
The covenant with the Jews was fulfilled when they rejected the gospel. So when the teaching went to the Gentiles, that was the end of that week. What else could it be?

moonglow
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:54 AM
You may very well be right Junietta, but do you have anything further to support that? Otherwise, it remains 'what I think'.

I think this creal I am eating is really good....but I can't prove it...:lol:

DaveS
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:58 AM
Moonglow, thanks for your reply. That's one of the most reasonable explanations I've heard. I mean, your thoughts, not necessarily the commetaries. Actually the commentaries you've quoted take a different view than the one you laid out (if I understood you correctly). They (the commentaries) make Daniel 9 and Daniel 11 two separate events. At least you recognize them as the same events and show how they might be seen as being accomplished by Christ on the one hand, and by Satan on the other.

I have to admit though, I'm unconvinced. Causing the sacrifice to cease in chapter 11 reads like a fully intentional part of the "vile person"s plot of evil against the holy covenant. To see it as you've described requires seeing the desecration of the temple as an unintended consequence of Satan's action; as Good winning out in spite of the vile person's campaign. As you read the passages (chapter 11 and chapter 9, both) causing the sacrifice to cease is part of an action CONTRARY to the holy covenant; in opposition to it, not in fulfillment of it.

And like Kahtar, I'm still wondering how the second 3 1/2 years fits in to finish the 70th week.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:59 AM
So if the 'he' in 27 is referring to the Messiah, and he is cut of in the middle of that last week, or seven years, what took place in the remainder of that 490 years that brings that whole prophecy to an end? The temple wasn't destroyed until AD70, 35 years afterward, so that does not fit within the 490 years. The abomination spoken of (temple to Jupiter Capitolinus) wasn't built until AD132, so that doesn't fit within the 490 years either.

Perhaps you think I am just trying to be difficult here, but I am not. I am seriously trying to understand this. If you want me or anyone else to seriously consider this, then please answer these questions.


From what I gathered from SP's post, Daniel 9 and Daniel 11 are two separate events? Can you support that any further, or is it just guesswork?

There is a long history of the break of Alexanders empire and the dealings of the Ptolemies and the Seleucidae with the Jewish state. But, I am intrigued by your statement, what would lead you to conclude the two chapters cover the same time frame. I am not dogmatic about my point, so I would be interested in hearing why you think the two are the same event? Just real curious?.........
We all carry a bag full of presuppositions into this stuff. One is the 'two witness' rule. Are you deriving that from the 'two witnesses' needed to substantiate a murder charge in the Law?

Bionic Woman
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:07 AM
Daniel's 70th Week Has Yet To Be Fullfilled By Mr Anti-Christ From Persia.

Alexander The Great's life-story appears identical to the chapters mentioned in Daniel be it his father Phillip being married to Cleopatra, etc.

http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/Balkan/Alexander.html

But Alexander The Great was born almost 300 over years before Jesus was born.....And Jesus in Mathew Chapter 24 verse 15 still mentioned that the coming Mr Anti-Christ / Abomination That Causes Desolation is mentioned in the chapters of Daniel.

Bibilical History repeats itself as Mankind are a stubborn lot whose Self-Will run riot over and over again since Babylonian Days, Tower Of Babel Days, Sodom & Gomorreah Days, Noah's Ark days.

The Construction of events of The Bible is always perfect as God's words are forever perfect and eternal.

15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvMatt.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=24&division=div1

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvDani.html

DaveS
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:19 AM
There is a long history of the break of Alexanders empire and the dealings of the Ptolemies and the Seleucidae with the Jewish state. But, I am intrigued by your statement, what would lead you to conclude the two chapters cover the same time frame. I am not dogmatic about my point, so I would be interested in hearing why you think the two are the same event? Just real curious?.........
We all carry a bag full of presuppositions into this stuff. One is the 'two witness' rule. Are you deriving that from the 'two witnesses' needed to substantiate a murder charge in the Law?
If I could speak out of turn on this last point.

2Co 13:1 ¶ This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

I don't know that the two or three witness rule as a proof concerning God's word can rightly be called a presupposition. "Here a little, there a little", I think, is a scripturally sound rule of interpretation.

moonglow
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:58 AM
Moonglow, thanks for your reply. That's one of the most reasonable explanations I've heard. I mean, your thoughts, not necessarily the commetaries. Actually the commentaries you've quoted take a different view than the one you laid out (if I understood you correctly). They (the commentaries) make Daniel 9 and Daniel 11 two separate events. At least you recognize them as the same events and show how they might be seen as being accomplished by Christ on the one hand, and by Satan on the other.

I have to admit though, I'm unconvinced. Causing the sacrifice to cease in chapter 11 reads like a fully intentional part of the "vile person"s plot of evil against the holy covenant. To see it as you've described requires seeing the desecration of the temple as an unintended consequence of Satan's action; as Good winning out in spite of the vile person's campaign. As you read the passages (chapter 11 and chapter 9, both) causing the sacrifice to cease is part of an action CONTRARY to the holy covenant; in opposition to it, not in fulfillment of it.

And like Kahtar, I'm still wondering how the second 3 1/2 years fits in to finish the 70th week.


I thought the commentaries were about the same event though..seemed like it to be...and I don't see it as an unintended consequence of satan's action...I mean, what happened when God withdraws? The sacrifices creasing was the OLD animal sacrifices though...that WAS suppose to happen as Jesus was the final sacrifice...and He laid out a new conveant anyway...His death was a fulfillment of the new convenant. That is how I see it anyway.

God bless

Kahtar
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:05 AM
There is a long history of the break of Alexanders empire and the dealings of the Ptolemies and the Seleucidae with the Jewish state. But, I am intrigued by your statement, what would lead you to conclude the two chapters cover the same time frame. I am not dogmatic about my point, so I would be interested in hearing why you think the two are the same event? Just real curious?.........
We all carry a bag full of presuppositions into this stuff. One is the 'two witness' rule. Are you deriving that from the 'two witnesses' needed to substantiate a murder charge in the Law?In chapter 11, it speaks of the many battles that take place between Ptolemy and Antiochus, but along about veres 35 the time shifts to the time of the end, and it becomes quite clear in verse 40 that it is the time of the end being spoken of.

It is my current undertanding (subject to change) that 9: is speaking of the same thing.
So far, no one has answered my questions entirely, so I don't have reason yet to change that current understanding.
And yes, I believe it is important to let scripture interpret scripture. Don't you?

moonglow
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:15 AM
In chapter 11, it speaks of the many battles that take place between Ptolemy and Antiochus, but along about veres 35 the time shifts to the time of the end, and it becomes quite clear in verse 40 that it is the time of the end being spoken of.

It is my current undertanding (subject to change) that 9: is speaking of the same thing.
So far, no one has answered my questions entirely, so I don't have reason yet to change that current understanding.
And yes, I believe it is important to let scripture interpret scripture. Don't you?

I thought wpm answered this question of yours very well, actually:


First question:
Obviously there is a difference of opinion regarding the identity of 'he' in verse 27. Does that 'he' refer to the Messiah, or to the 'prince that shall come', and how do you make the distinction?

I saw you had other questions...with so many replying though its easy to overlook a question...so can you post excatly what you feel hasn't been answered yet?

Kahtar
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:45 AM
I thought wpm answered this question of yours very well, actually:



I saw you had other questions...with so many replying though its easy to overlook a question...so can you post excatly what you feel hasn't been answered yet?Yes, he eventually answered my question about who the 'he' was, but he did not explain how he arrives at that conclusion, ie 'and how do you make the distinction?'.

My question about how the Messiah can confirm the covenant one week, yet be cut off in the middle of the same week has not been answered.

My question about what event or events take place during that last 3 1/2 years that clearly shows us the end of the 490 year period has yet to be adaquately answered. Junietta made a good attempt, and may be right, but has yet to provide anything more than guesswork. Did the event she spoke 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion? If it did, then it would be a very good candidate.

And my later question regarding whether chapter 9 and eleven are separate events has not been answered.

The point that the entire 70 weeks has been fulfilled already is central to the understanding stated at the beginning of this thread. But thus far, the last 3 and half years of it remain in a fog. Every 'signpost' happened according to the timeschedule, right down to the Messiah being cut off. I would think that the end of that 490 year period would be a little clearer to see if it has indeed already been fulfilled.

If these things can be answered clearly, with something more than supposition, then I will consider this interpretation as a good possibility.

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 08:58 AM
Yes, he eventually answered my question about who the 'he' was, but he did not explain how he arrives at that conclusion, ie 'and how do you make the distinction?'.

My question about how the Messiah can confirm the covenant one week, yet be cut off in the middle of the same week has not been answered.

My question about what event or events take place during that last 3 1/2 years that clearly shows us the end of the 490 year period has yet to be adaquately answered. Junietta made a good attempt, and may be right, but has yet to provide anything more than guesswork. Did the event she spoke 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion? If it did, then it would be a very good candidate.

And my later question regarding whether chapter 9 and eleven are separate events has not been answered.

The point that the entire 70 weeks has been fulfilled already is central to the understanding stated at the beginning of this thread. But thus far, the last 3 and half years of it remain in a fog. Every 'signpost' happened according to the timeschedule, right down to the Messiah being cut off. I would think that the end of that 490 year period would be a little clearer to see if it has indeed already been fulfilled.

If these things can be answered clearly, with something more than supposition, then I will consider this interpretation as a good possibility.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) begins with the start of Christ’s public ministry (AD 27) and sees the crucifixion half way through it (AD 30), which is the start of the clock of natural Israel’s probationary opportunity (40 yrs) to accept or reject the Messiah’s message and His once-all-sufficient atonement. The concluding 3 ½ yrs saw Israel’s wanton rejection of the once-all-sufficient atonement, the rebellious continuation of the NOW abolished order of Old Testament sacrifice (which is “the overspreading of abominations”). The Jews rebellion saw the destruction of their temple in AD 70 (which was 40 yrs later), which caused the termination of their now abolished temple sacrifices.

In the second part of the last week, the Church (Christ's earthly body) received its baptism of fire at Pentecost during this period and in obedience to Christ’s commission entered into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel to the (once darkened) nations that have NOW being open to the Gospel. This was the promised power to take the Gospel with boldness to a hostile world. The end of the last half of the week is marked by the martyrdom of Stephen and other faithful servants of God, and the significant commencement of the tribulation period. Notwithstanding, it is not what happened at the end of the 70th week that is the focal point, it is what happened in "the midst of the week" that is important – namely Calvary.

Paul

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:06 AM
If I could speak out of turn on this last point.

2Co 13:1 ¶ This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

I don't know that the two or three witness rule as a proof concerning God's word can rightly be called a presupposition. "Here a little, there a little", I think, is a scripturally sound rule of interpretation.

Who else could have fulfilled all this?


Daniel 9:24 predicts,“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to(1)finish the transgression, and to (2)make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to(4)bring in everlasting righteousness, and to(5)seal up the vision and prophecy, and to(6)anoint the most Holy”


The six things outlined in this reading are carefully and clearly predicted to occur within the 70 weeks, thus the saying “seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to…” For Bible students to apply this Messianic prophecy to anti-Christ is wrong and erroneous and bordering upon the blasphemous. After all, applying something to anti-Christ, which evidently relates alone to the Saviour, is grave error. All these predictions were perfectly fulfilled in the person of Christ and in His wonderful earthly ministry. He spent 3 ½ years fulfilling every expectation that the Father demanded, from His arrival on the public scene (and His heavenly vindication from the Father after He was baptised) to His atoning death and His victorious resurrection for the grave. All of these predictions have been met in one man – the man Christ Jesus. One wonders how anyone could apply these six awesome divine demands on a mere mortal.

”anoint the most Holy”

(a) Who is “the most holy”?

Luke 1:34-35 records of Jesus, “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Mark 1:23-25 says of Jesus, “And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.”

I John 2:20 says of Jesus, “ye have an unction from the Holy One”

Peter declared of Jesus on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2:27, “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Peter declared of Jesus to the unbelieving Jews, in Acts 3:14, “ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you.”

Revelation 3:7 says of Christ, “to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

In Revelation 6:10 the Lord is described in similar terms, “And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

(b) When was the most holy to be anointed?


The Lord Jesus was given the hallowed Messianic title Christ meaning the anointed One. He was indeed the holy One to come who would be anointed of the Spirit to perform and fulfil the Divine purpose of God for the redemption of mankind. The Greek word Christos (Strong’s 5547) derives from the word chrio (Strong’s 5548), meaning ‘to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate / anoint to an office or religious service’. The name Christ means the anointed one.

From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah was to be 483 years. The anointing of Messiah ushered in the commencement of His earthly ministry and saw the beginning of the 70th week. When Jesus appeared on the scene, John cried: "Behold the Lamb of God." When this time was fulfilled, those who knew this prophecy were expecting the appearance of the Messiah, that is, the Christ (Christ being the Greek form of the Hebrew word Messiah). Thus when John came baptizing, "the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ or not" (Luke 3:15). John plainly told them that he was not the Christ he was only the forerunner. The time had now come that Jesus should be “made manifest to Israel” (John 1:29 31). He was then baptized and after He had prayed: “the heaven was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased”(Luke 3:21,22).

This was Christ’s heavenly vindication on the Son of God; He had appeared to Israel right on time! Thus Jesus, in evident reference to the time prophecy of Daniel, said, “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15) and as the Messiah, the Christ, the “anointed one,” he preached the gospel. Immediately after Christ’s anointing, Luke 4:1-4 records, “Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil.”

After His forty days in the wilderness, Christ presented Himself to the nation of Israel, thus fully Daniel 9 and many other Old Testament passages, and commencing His earthly ministry; this He now did in the power of the Spirit. Luke 4:14-21 declares, “Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee:and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”

Christ’s anointing here is closely connected to the commencement of His earthly ministry. He had to be anointed of the Spirit in order to perform His earthly task, fulfil Scripture, and be an example for every believer that would follow.

Peter testified of this truth to the other Apostles in Acts 10:38, “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

The disciples prayed to Father, whilst speaking of Christ, in Acts 4:27, “For of a truth againstthy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.”

Daniel's prophecy revealed that the time period unto the Messiah would be 69 weeks (483 years). This clearly measured to the time when Jesus was baptized and anointed to begin his ministry as the Messiah, the Christ, the "Anointed One.

"finish the transgression"

Isaiah 53:5-8 predicated, “he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment : and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”

This great focal was perfectly fulfilled by Christ.

In these words we see the complete fulfilment of the heavenly transaction for sin and transgression. This was totally perfected in Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

I John 3:4-5 explains, “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know thathe (Christ) was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

Christ came to take away that awful curse that afflicted man from the Garden. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “for he(God) hath made him(Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Our sin was imputed to Christ; His righteousness was imputed to us. Christ’s perfect once all-sufficient self sacrifice secured a full, real and perfect redemption for his own, whether Old or New Testament saints. He was made a curse for us (Gal 3:13). The shedding of the blood satisfied the Father and reconciled the sinner to God, securing eternal redemption. Christ the sinless Lamb of God was made sin on the sinner’s behalf.

Christ met all the just demands of the Law by his vicarious atonement, ensuring no legal charges can justly be brought against those for whom he paid the price.

As Jesus was dying, he cried: "It is finished." At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. No future sacrifice can or will ever finish transgression; it was completely and perfectly finished at Calvary.



The once all-sufficient satisfactory sacrifice occurred through Christ at Calvary. The old system of repeated sacrifices (types) where thus terminated (in God’s economy) when God’s only begotten Son became the final sacrifice for sin. Whilst the Jews continued their divinely abolished temple sacrifices for forty more years, God did not recognize them. Such imperfect sacrifices would never again appease the wrath of Almighty God, as the death of Christ perfectly satisfied the one all-sufficient, final atoning sacrifice for sin forever.

Hebrews 9:13-15 declares, “For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this causehe is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”


The Old Testament saints received their “eternal inheritance” looking forward to the new covenant. The old could not have achieved this of it as it was only a temporal shadow and type of the real and eternal.

Ephesians 2:13-16 says, “in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.”

Colossians 2:14-15 plainly declares, speaking of Calvary, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

Moreover, Daniel 9:27 precisely predicted this eternal transaction and when this great would occur, saying, “in the midst of the week (or after 3 ½ years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”


Paul

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:10 AM
"to make an end of sins."

Jeremiah first prophesied the coming and character of the new covenant, in Jeremiah 31:31-33, saying, “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Jeremiah continues in the next verse, saying, “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more” (Jeremiah 31:34).

The writer of the Hebrews addresses this passage directly, quoting it and applying it to Christ and His atoning work at Calvary. The animal sacrifices were done away forever.

Hebrews 10:4-12 explains, “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

The old covenant with its unsatisfactory imperfect animal sacrifices have now been replaced by the new covenant with its one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. Paul outlines an important New Testament principle in 1 Corinthians 15:46, which is evident in every aspect of God’s plan and purpose with mankind, “that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”

Hebrews 7:19-22 declares, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.”

Hebrews 8:6-8 says, of Christ and His vicarious atonement, “now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry (than those exercised by the Old Testament priests with their imperfect sacrifices), by how much alsoHe is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant.” The writer of the Hebrews then quotes our opening passage in Jeremiah 31, thus demonstrating its actual fulfilment.


Hebrews 8:13 continues,“In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away” Whilst the Cross ushered in the new covenant, and the removal of the old covenant, many of the outward manifestations of the old covenant still remained. God had vowed to remove every last vestige of the old. This He did. He graciously gave them 40 years to repent (AD30-AD70).Not long after this epistle was written, the temple with its now-rejected sacrifices was finally destroyed. With the destruction of the temple, the temple sacrifices vanished forever.

Hebrews 10:10-12 significantly continues, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ‘once for all’ (or) ephapax (or ‘upon one occasion only’). And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

The Temple with all its resplendent adornments and its meticulous ceremonies and sacrifices was a beautiful physical, yet temporal, figure, shadow and type of the Lord Jesus Christ and His one all-sufficient sacrifice at the cross. Calvary wrought it all. It finished forever the earthly need for a physical Jewish temple that embodied imperfect shadow sacrifices. Hebrews 10:14-20 then affirms, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh.”

2 Corinthians 3:11-14 similarly says, “For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious… And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.”

Hebrews 10:26 says, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”
If we understand the glorious implication of what was accomplished at Calvary, we know that there was truly an end of sins made. Jesus did truly come to "save his people from their sins" (Matthew. 1:21), that’s why John the Baptist introduced Him at the commencement of the 70th week as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world"(John 1:29).

Notwithstanding, this great transaction was fully accomplished after 3½ years of ministry at Calvary, when He “put away sin by the sacrifice of himself … so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many”(Hebrews 9:26 & 28).

Mark 15:37 says, “Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God."

It was the cross-work that ended sin from a divine perspective, in relation to His elect. 1 Peter 3:18 says, “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit.”

Hebrews 7:26-27 says, “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:11-14 says, “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

Hebrews 9:24-28 continues, “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

Romans 6:9-10 says, “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.”

We can therefore testify of Calvary, "Christ died for our sins"(1 Corinthians 15:3), where He "bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (l Peter 2:24). Therefore, "He was manifested to take away our sins" (l John 3:5).
The predicted "end of sins" that we read of in Daniel was therefore fully accomplished at Calvary.

From a human experiential point of view, sin still exists in the elect, although from a heavenly perspective the one perfect all-sufficient eternal sacrifice for sin has been fully and finally made at Calvary, so that all who come unto Christ in repentance (past, present, or future) will be totally forgiven on the sole basis of Christ’s Calvary transaction. This occurred in the midst of Daniel’s final week as he accurately predicted.

The restoration of the now abolished sacrifices would be an abomination before God, and is the reason why He destroyed the last temple. The wanton rejection of the once-all-sufficient atonement with the rebellious continuation of the NOW abolished order of Old Testament sacrifice brought Israel's judgment.

The animal sacrifices were done away forever.


Paul

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:16 AM
"to make reconciliation for iniquity."

Micah 7:19 predicted of Christ: “He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.”

This Old Testament prophecy like, Daniel 9, was looking to an approaching event in which Messiah would appear to fully atone for man’s sin, to once-and-for-all destroy the power and penalty of sin. This momentous transaction was undoubtedly fully secured at the Cross in Christ’s one all-sufficient sacrifice. Hebrews 10:12-16 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God … This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them. Andtheir sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

This New Testament passage confirms that this substitutionary transaction is indeed completely and finally “finished.” Hebrews 8:12 also says, “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

God’s elect within the nation of Israel were fully reconciled to God (as we are) by the blood of Jesus. The Christ-rejecting Jew, like the Christ rejecting Jew will never be reconciled to God outside of Calvary.
The word reconciliation used here is the same word that is used so frequently in the book of Leviticus where it is rendered “to make atonement.” This, too, was part of our Lord's redemptive work. Reconciliation is clearly a present reality because of Calvary. Hebrews 2:17 says, “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

Romans 5:8-10 says, “God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

Ephesians 2:13-16 says, “in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.”

Colossians 1:20-22 says, “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight.”

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 says, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new and all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

Titus 2:13-14 says, “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

''to bring in everlasting righteousness."

Psalms 119:137-138, 142 outlines, “Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments. Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful … Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.”

The Lord is righteous and every act He does or word He speaks epitomises righteousness. He is the embodiment of righteousness. Righteousness reigns were He reigns and exercises authority. Moreover, the righteousness that we speak of that pertains to God is constantly represented as everlasting. There is no starting point to it and equally there is no end. Where God is righteousness exists, the two are inseparable. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2). In fact Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalm 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2). Therefore His righteousness is everlasting. At the incarnation, Christ chose to manifest God’s eternal righteousness to sinful through His earthly ministry and the eternal life that He offered men. In Matthew 6:33 Christ identified the kingdom with Himself, when He said, “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” Here the kingdom and Christ are viewed as one. Being part of the kingdom of God is being part of Christ. Being part of Christ means taking on His righteousness.

The great redemption chapter of Isaiah 53 had prophesied of Christ and the great eternal consequence that would emanate from Calvary for God’s elect: "my righteous servant shall make many righteous." How can futurists remotely deny that this great transaction was fulfilled 2,000 years ago at Calvary? Christ rendered many righteous through the redemptive work of the Cross. After all, He is “the Lord our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:6).

2 Corinthians 5:21 provides the answer, saying, “for he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

At Calvary our sin was imputed or transferred to Christ; upon conversion His righteousness was imputed or transferred to us! Christ’s perfect once all-sufficient self sacrifice secured a full, real and perfect redemption for his own.

As man’s representative he took upon himself the form of man, living the life that we could never live. He kept and fulfilled the law perfectly, by living a life of perfect obedience. As our guarantor he voluntarily and unconditionally bore the necessary punishment of the penitent sinner. Christ paid our penalty in full by his substitutionary atoning death, this relieving us of our guilt, and purchasing our complete redemption.

When Christ approached John (at the beginning of the final week of Daniel) for him to baptise Him, John immediately refused, to which the Master declared, “Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).

Christ has expressly fulfilled every demand that the Father made of Him in His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. A question that should be considered is: Was that righteousness secured through Christ’s death “everlasting” as predicted or temporal? 2 Corinthians 9:9 addresses our query, saying, “As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”

Here in this reading, we note the eternal nature of the righteousness that Christ brought at His first Advent. The reading confirms, as predicted in Daniel 9 of His first Advent, that the righteousness that Christ brought was assuredly “everlasting righteousness,” not temporal as some would try and argue. This is in total keeping with the eternal character of the kingdom He ushered in.

Likewise, Hebrews 1:8-9 says, “unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

Christ ushered that eternal kingdom in at the beginning of the 70th week. Jesus testified, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man ‘presseth’ (or biazetai – or suffereth violence) into it.”

The legal accomplishment of the Cross and the righteousness that was imputed to the penitent sinner was relative equally to the Old and New Testament saints. He was made a curse for us (Gal 3:13). The shedding of the blood satisfied the Father and reconciled the sinner to God, securing eternal redemption. Christ the sinless Lamb of God was made sin on the sinner’s behalf. 1 John 2:29 declares, "Everyone that doeth righteousness is born of him"

Moreover, the “everlasting righteousness” that is found in Christ has now been graciously imputed to His elect through mystical union in salvation Romans 4:20-24 declares, talking about Abraham the father of the faith, “He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.”

This righteousness which comes from God through Christ is appropriated by grace through faith. Romans 3:22 declares, “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.” The righteousness the believer has is not his own it is imputed (or put into us) of the Lord. Christ is our righteousness. Romans 5:21 says, “as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” This “imputed” righteousness is also expressly of an “eternal” nature.

I John 3:7 says, “let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” It was Calvary however that fully realised the imputation of eternal righteousness into the child of God. 1 Peter 2:24 says, “who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
Calvary was the event that ensured that God’s elect would enter into the unending rest of “everlasting righteousness.” We therefore stand boldly and solely by faith in the righteousness of Christ and His shed blood, in total and absolute spiritual liberty.

Q. Was not this righteousness that he brought in everlasting?

A. Romans 5:17-21 says, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Calvary was the specific event that brought “in everlasting righteousness” for mankind. Our sin was imputed to Christ; His righteousness was imputed to us! Christ’s perfect once all-sufficient self sacrifice secured a full, real and perfect redemption for his own, whether Old or New Testament saints. The righteousness that Christ ushered in was undoubtedly eternal or everlasting. Romans 3:24-25 declares of His elect, “Being justified freely by his gracethrough the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,through the forbearance of God.”

Calvary secured the imputation of that righteousness.

Paul

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:21 AM
"to seal up vision and prophecy"


The thought embodied within the phrase “to seal” is derived from the ancient custom of attaching a seal to a document to show that it was genuine. In Esther 8:7 we see king Ahasuerus instruct Esther to “write” to the Jews “as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring.” This was the royal stamp of confirmation. A seal is essentially a confirmation of authenticity and entitlement. This is also seen in 1 Kings 21:8 when Jezebel “wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles.” Jeremiah 32:10-11 records how Jeremiah purchased land, whereupon he testified, “I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances. So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open.” A seal therefore is essentially a confirmation.

When we view Daniel’s prophecy in this light we see that Christ’s appearance authenticated everything written of Him in the Old Testament Scriptures. His first advent was God’s eternal confirmation of salvation for mankind. Christ fulfilled everything that was written of Him in the visions and prophecies of the Old Testament. This was demonstrated on this earth right from His mother’s womb to His appearances after the resurrection. John the Baptists father Zacharias prophesied, when Mary was 3 months pregnant with Christ, “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began.”

When Christ was brought into the temple at 8 days old, Simeon testified that He was the “consolation of Israel.” John the Baptist introduced Christ in John 1:31, as “he that was to be he should be made manifest to Israel.” He was the desire of every true Israelite from the beginning. Acts 28:20 describes Him as “the hope of Israel.” He is the eternal fulfilment of the vision and prophecy.

Of course later in His ministry Christ confirmed that “the prophets and the law prophesied until John” (Matthew 11:13)


Jesus Christ is the fulfilment of the law and the realisation of every promise God made to mankind through the succession of Old Testament prophets. Right from the Garden of Eden we see Christ predicted. God tells us in Genesis 3:15, “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Throughout the New Testament we repeatedly see it confirmed that Christ was the heavenly seal of the “vision and prophecy” of God. The book of Matthew illustrates this well:

Matthew 1:22 records, “all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet.”

Matthew 2:15 says, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet.”

Matthew 2:23 declares, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets.”

Matthew 4:14 says, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.”

Matthew 8:17 says, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.”

Matthew 12:17 says, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.”

Matthew 13:35 records, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.”

Matthew 21:4 declares, “All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.”

Matthew 26:56 says, “all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

Matthew 27:35 says, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.”

Christ’s every word, deed and action was at heaven’s behest and in fulfilment of heaven’s desire.

After His resurrection, Christ spoke to the disciples at different times from the Old Testament, showing He was the eternal fulfilment. In Luke 24:21-27 Christ joined two disheartened disciples on the Emmaus road. After testifying to the risen Christ in their presence that they had trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel” Christ then began to teach them in verse 27 from the Old Testament, we learn, “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”Later in the chapter He spoke to more of the disciples, in Luke 24:44-45, saying, “And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.”

John the Baptist said in John 3:33 about Christ, “He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.” Adam Clarke’s thoughts on this passage are interesting, saying, “That is hath hereby confirmed the truth of the testimony which he has borne; as a testator sets his seal to an instrument in order to confirm it, and such instrument is considered as fully confirmed by having the testator's seal affixed to it, so I, by taking up this testimony of Christ, and proclaiming it to the Jews, have fully confirmed it, as I know it to be a truth; which knowledge I have from the immediate inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”

In a metaphorical sense a seal denotes confirmation and approval. Christ said in John 6:27, “Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” The Father placed His stamp of confirmed upon Christ throughout His life. At the beginning of His earthly ministry, the Father pronounced His heavenly vindication upon Christ, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17). Christ was heaven’s ordained authentic voice. The same seal the Father has placed upon Christ has now been placed upon the elect upon salvation. Ephesians 1:12-14 declares, “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (or our pledge in advance) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 4:30 warns us, “grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” In another metaphorical sense of sealing, Paul says of the believers at Corinth, “the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 9:2).

When Philip met Him he testified, “We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph” (John 1:45). Christ said in John 5:39, “Search the Scriptures … they are they which testify of me." After His resurrection, Luke 24:27 records Christ preaching to the two on the Road to Emmaus. It says, “beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” He again spoke to His disciples in His glorified body, saying, “all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me” (Luke 24:44).

Peter said in Acts 3:18: "Those things which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer he hath so fulfilled."

Paul explained to the Jews that he said “none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles” (Acts 26:22-23).

Paul then goes on to tell these Jews what Israel did with their king, in Acts 13:27-30, saying, “For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

Peter said, speaking of Israel’s hope, “the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the holy ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into” (1 Peter 1:7-12).

Christ "sealed" the Old Testament prophecies perfectly, meeting them in every minute detail, fulfilling what was predicted of Him in Daniel 9:24.

Paul

Kahtar
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:13 PM
For Bible students to apply this Messianic prophecy to anti-Christ is wrong and erroneous and bordering upon the blasphemous. After all, applying something to anti-Christ, which evidently relates alone to the Saviour, is grave error.I agree. I also agree that applying something the anti-christ does to Christ is equally wrong, erroneous, and bordering upon the blasphemous.
All that aside, I gather that you are not going to give any further indication of how you determine who 'he' is beyond what you've already given. Perhaps David Taylor can give a clearer answer.
I gather also that there is no actual clear-cut end of the 490 year period as none has yet been given, beyond various events that took place some time after the resurrection, leaving the end to just sort of fade away.
The apparent discrepancy in the 'comfirm the covenant one week' while being cut off in the middle of it, has been indirectly answered, so I'll drop that one.
By the way, BTM, that was a very nice assessment you provided. Good basic understanding of the scriptures.
Would you care to tackle the issue with chapter 11?

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 02:43 PM
And heres when the last week begins


After Christ presented Himself to Israel as her Messiah on Palm Sunday and was subsequently "cut off", a nearly 2,000 year gap ensued. When Christ was "cut off", the time clock was effectively stopped. Then, in May of 1948, Israel was once again back in the land. That was significant because she had to be back in the land before the prophecy to Daniel (9:24-27) could be fulfilled. God had dealt with Israel as a nation up to the time when Messiah was cut off. He does so again when He resumes the program with Israel for the 70th week, the final seven years.
The re-emerging of Israel as a nation among the nations of the world after nearly 2,000 years was essential before the 70th week could begin and before Christ could return for the second coming. Then, when Israel regained control over her ancient city, Jerusalem, in 1967, that nailed down the final preparations for the possibility of the 70th week. Why? Because the prophecy to Daniel was for "your people and your holy city" (9:24). With Israel back in the land, growing tired of the constant conflict of terrorism and Palestinian and world pressure, and looking for a real solution to peace, she is more ready now than ever before to sign a covenant with some power with the political and military resources to guarantee the peace she so desperately desires. One day, perhaps soon, she'll sign the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:15, 18. When that happens, the 70th Week will have begun.

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:01 PM
The Final WeekThe “one week” of Daniel 9:27 must be part of the “seventy weeks” (:24). We know that the sixty-nine weeks (483 years) were fulfilled at the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, so there is an outstanding “week” to account for to make up the Daniel’s Seventy Weeks (490 years).
The seventieth week begins when the Antichrist (Beast, Man of Sin) establishes a peace treaty with Israel for seven years. Either before this or because of it a new temple will be built by the Jews in Jerusalem upon Temple Mount. Both Daniel and John speak of two periods of 3½ years that make up the last seven years prior to the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth.
It is likely that at the dedication of the temple, 3½ years into Antichrist’s reign, that he will be asked to officially open the building. This may be the reason why he is able to deceive the Jews by erecting his image their. He will be “revealed” for who he really is (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The Jews will realise that this is not their Messiah, for the true Messiah would have nothing to do with idolatry. This temple will not be used for the worship of God but of Satan for the Beast will “in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” (Daniel 9:27).

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:05 PM
That have yet to be fulfilled are the fall feasts, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. They happen in the scenerio in the previous posts

moonglow
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:07 PM
I agree. I also agree that applying something the anti-christ does to Christ is equally wrong, erroneous, and bordering upon the blasphemous.
All that aside, I gather that you are not going to give any further indication of how you determine who 'he' is beyond what you've already given. Perhaps David Taylor can give a clearer answer.
I gather also that there is no actual clear-cut end of the 490 year period as none has yet been given, beyond various events that took place some time after the resurrection, leaving the end to just sort of fade away.
The apparent discrepancy in the 'comfirm the covenant one week' while being cut off in the middle of it, has been indirectly answered, so I'll drop that one.
By the way, BTM, that was a very nice assessment you provided. Good basic understanding of the scriptures.
Would you care to tackle the issue with chapter 11?


The question of who is 'he' was actually addressed in one of the links I provided on the first post...for those that still have questions on it.

http://mikeblume.com/treece.htm

What Is the Truth About "the Prince" in the 70 Weeks of Daniel?

By Michael F. Blume

I recently read an article in the Summer 2001 edition of CONNECT magazine written by an Apostolic who proposed many incorrect teachings and misrepresentation of those who believe the 70 weeks of Daniel are fulfilled. It accused us of believing there was only one prince mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 in association with the 70 weeks of Daniel. The argument was based upon an attempt to prove there must be a gap between the 69th and the 70th weeks of Daniel’s 70 weeks noted in Daniel 9:24. However, the information said to be promoted by us in this article was absolutely incorrect. Let me try to set the record straight regarding what we actually believe regarding the issue of the "prince" in Daniel 9, and also address some other concerns raised by the particular author who misrepresented our teaching.

Here is the scripture in question:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


THE REAL QUESTION CONCERNS THE IDENTITY OF "HE" IN VERSE 27

The entire issue circles around the identity of the "he" in verse 27.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: …

Who is the "he" who confirms a covenant with many for one week? Futurists, who believe that the entire 70 weeks is not yet fulfilled, contend that the "he" is the antichrist. we contend that the "he" is not the antichrist but is the Messiah the Prince, Jesus Christ. Let us prove that the "he" most certainly is Jesus Christ.

It has been argued by some Futurists that we teach the prince in verse 26 is Jesus, and that we therefore teach that Jesus destroyed the temple accord to the statement, "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." This is simply a straw man argument (an argument that attacks a belief supposedly held by another group while in reality the other group holds no such belief at all!).

Jesus is certainly the Messiah the Prince of verse 25. Nobody in Christianity argues that. The second prince noted in verse 26, "the prince that shall come," is not Jesus Christ. That is not the problem between Futurists and ourselves. The real issue is the identity of the "he" noted in the first phrase of verse 27.

THERE ARE TWO PRINCES MENTIONED IN THE DISCOURSE

In the straw man argument proposed by some futurists, the aspect of the lower case letter "p" in the word "prince" from the phrase, "prince that shall come," is a matter of supposed proof that we are incorrect. Once again, we do not believe the prince in verse 26 is Jesus. So the argument about who this prince is, is not an issue anyway! But simply for the sake of noting proper study manners, I do wish to point out that it is unwise to prove a doctrine based upon the translators’ preference of capitalization in a word! In the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, every word was comprised of capital letters! This shows some very weak study manners used by those Futurists who argue their point using such methods as pointing to what words are capitalized or not..

The prince in verse 25 is Jesus and the prince in 26 is not Jesus.

That is a fact.

That is not the question, though. The question is the identity of the "he" in verse 27.

So it is not a question of whether Jesus destroyed the temple and the city according to verse 26. The prince in verse 26, who was responsible for the temple and city destruction of 70 AD, was not Jesus! It was the Roman "prince". The Roman people came and destroyed the temple and City by 70 AD. Jesus and His people did not destroy the temple.

GRAMMAR PROVES CHRIST IS THE "HE"

Analyzing the grammar of verses 25 through 27 shows us that the "he" who confirms a covenant for seven years is Jesus Christ. The subject of the discussion is found in verse 25, and is the Messiah the Prince. Verse 25 mentions a span of time of "seven weeks" and "threescore and two weeks." Seven plus sixty-two is sixty-nine. The Messiah the Prince is on the scene after the first 69 weeks. And we read that after the "threescore and two weeks", Messiah shall be cut off. What is "after" the threescore and two weeks? It is the 70th WEEK! During the time after the 69th week, which is during the 70 th week, Messiah is cut off. And this fits perfectly with the sequence of events that occurred in the Biblical texts of the New Testament. Jesus came, and 3.5 years later was crucified, or cut off. The "week" is a week of seven years. All agree with that. And in the midst of the "week", the sacrifice and oblation ceased. God would never again accept sacrifice of blood, since Christ was the final sacrifice God would ever recognize. This refers to the crucifixion where Christ was "cut off" due to an untimely death, as opposed to death by natural old age. He was "cut off" since He was killed. And he was not cut off for Himself! He died for the salvation of humanity! Praise God!

Not only would Christ be cut off after the 69 weeks, but the people of the prince that shall come would destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple). This was fulfilled by the year 70 AD. Desolations were "determined." Jesus Christ referred to the destruction of the Temple, Himself, in Matthew 23.
Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

"Your house is left unto you desolate."

And then we come to the verse in question. After all this information is provided, we suddenly read of "he" who confirms the covenant with many for one week. Grammar demands this "he" simply cannot be the "prince that shall come" in verse 26. The subject in question is the Messiah the Prince of verse 25.

Get the sequence of events.

The Messiah comes and is cut off.

Then a certain people destroy the city and sanctuary.

And "he" confirms the covenant with many for one week. Who? "He." This "he" must be the Messiah of verse 25! It cannot be the "prince that shall come" because this reference to the "prince that shall come" is not the subject in any point of the entire writing! After noting the cutting off of the messiah, we read that a certain people come and destroy the city and temple. And a side note to this temple destruction is that this particular people belong to a "prince that shall come". The point that is stressed, though, is not this "prince that shall come". Reference to this second prince serves only as a side note, telling us who this "people" belong to and what nation they are from.

Saying that the "he" in verse 27 is some antichrist, is similar to misinterpreting the following sentence, "Steven went to the store beside the house owned by Mr. Brown, and he purchased a loaf of bread." To say that the "he" at the end of the phrase is Mr. Brown is to make the same error as do the Futurists when they say that the "he" in verse 27 is antichrist. The ‘"he" in my example of Steven going to the store is of course referring to Steven. It is not Mr. Brown. It cannot be due to the grammar I used. "Steven" is the subject. Mr. Brown is only a side note! And that is exactly the manner in which the prince that shall come is involved in the discussion. He is a side note, and only a clarifier as to the identity of the people who will destroy the city and temple. He is not the subject in any sense of the word. And to make him the grammatical "subject" of Verse 27 is to simply destroy all methods of proper grammar and the association of sentences and their grammatical "subjects" with one another in the context of the particular discussion.

The Bible says nothing about a "prince" other than Jesus who confirms a covenant with anybody for seven years.

TO "MAKE" OR "CONFIRM" A COVENANT FOR 7 YEARS

Those who argue this reasoning state that Jesus did not make a covenant with anybody for a seven year period. The text reads that he would confirm a covenant with many for seven years. To confirm a covenant is to refer to an already existent covenant! It is to support a covenant and make it sure. And Jesus most certainly did make a covenant sure! He "confirmed" the covenant.
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me

In other words, God never did ultimately desire animal sacrifice. Jesus Christ fulfilled the perfect will of God by coming as the sacrifice ultimately planned before the foundation of the world. He confirmed this covenant of God in the statement noted in Hebrews 10:5.

Jeremiah noted the covenant as follows:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And Hebrews speaks of this covenant that Jesus made sure through His death.
Hebrews 8:6-13 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

His death confirmed it by His blood.
Hebrews 9:14-20 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Jesus also said His blood confirmed the covenant.
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Above we read of Christ, the one to confirm the covenant. And we also read of the covenant itself. And the blood is said to be the element that would confirm that covenant. Jesus even said that his blood would be shed "for many" for the remission of sins. Daniel 9:27 said the covenant was confirmed "with many." What perfect fulfillment of the words of Daniel 9:27!

The great covenant prophesied to come in Jeremiah stressed the forgiveness of sins.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jesus noted that as the stress of the covenant confirmed by His blood in saying, "which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Remission of sins is the same language in Greek as saying "forgiveness of sins."

(read the rest at the link...hopefully it will answer all your questions)

God bless

Banzy
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:22 PM
Hi Kahtar,

Yea, I really don't think there is a definitive moment that someone can point to and say here's where the 70th week ended. But I would say that Acts 13:46 sums it up.

The last 3 1/2 years of the final week, the disciples preached only to the Jews. With the martyrdom of Stephen and the rejection of the gospel by the High Priest and Jewish Sanhedrin the 70th week ended.

I believe as wpm stated, the important part is in the middle of the 70th week, our wonderful Lord and Saviour died for our sins. As I stated in my original post, and as David Taylor and wpm have written out so eloquently, the 6 things listed in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. Isaiah 53 and Hebrews are great places to find these things.

moonglow
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:34 PM
And heres when the last week begins


After Christ presented Himself to Israel as her Messiah on Palm Sunday and was subsequently "cut off", a nearly 2,000 year gap ensued. When Christ was "cut off", the time clock was effectively stopped.

Where excatly is the scriptures that says the clock was stopped?


Then, in May of 1948, Israel was once again back in the land. That was significant because she had to be back in the land before the prophecy to Daniel (9:24-27) could be fulfilled. God had dealt with Israel as a nation up to the time when Messiah was cut off. He does so again when He resumes the program with Israel for the 70th week, the final seven years.

So God has to deal with Israel twice? Once wasn't enough?


The re-emerging of Israel as a nation among the nations of the world after nearly 2,000 years was essential before the 70th week could begin and before Christ could return for the second coming. Then, when Israel regained control over her ancient city, Jerusalem, in 1967, that nailed down the final preparations for the possibility of the 70th week. Why? Because the prophecy to Daniel was for "your people and your holy city" (9:24). With Israel back in the land, growing tired of the constant conflict of terrorism and Palestinian and world pressure, and looking for a real solution to peace, she is more ready now than ever before to sign a covenant with some power with the political and military resources to guarantee the peace she so desperately desires. One day, perhaps soon, she'll sign the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:15, 18. When that happens, the 70th Week will have begun.

So basically you are saying everything that already happened in the past has to be repeated all over again...the temple rebuilt, scarifices start all over again only to be stopped...supposely by the antichrist, who isn't the one that signs a covenant with them in the first place...those scriptures were about Jesus along with supporting verses to show its Him, not any antichrist.

I know people claim the temple was not totally destroyed in 70A.D. due to the Western Wall still standing which is nothing more then a retaining wall and not the temple...so they dismiss it was every destroyed...so they are looking for everything to happen all over again that happened a long, long time ago. It causes a huge amount of fear and anxiety...everyone is looking for this evil antichrist and their focus is on him, rather then on Jesus...:(


http://mikeblume.com/treece.htm
HAPHAZARD MINGLING OF DIFFFERENT ISSUES

Futurists claim that the antichrist makes a covenant with the Jews to offer sacrifices once again after almost 2,000 years of having offered no blood, by giving them a temple in which to worship God. This idea is the result of haphazard mingling of scriptures with no explicit statement saying anything to the effect of such an idea. Nowhere does the Bible state that an antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews to sacrifice animals once again in a rebuilt temple. All that we are given by Futurists is the following scriptures:
Daniel 8:9-14 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Notice that Daniel 8 says nothing about the little horn, supposed to be the coming antichrist, making a covenant with the Jews to offer sacrifices after having not been able to do so due to not having a temple for almost 2,000 years. And Daniel 8:9-14 is alleged to be linked to the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 where a "son of perdition" is said to stand in the temple of God and show himself that he is God. But nothing is said anywhere in any of these references of an antichrist making a covenant with Jews to sacrifice to God in the temple!

Futurists have shown a very weak manner of study methods by taking the story of the little horn, who would take away a daily sacrifice, and blending it with Paul’s prophecy of a son of perdition exalting himself as God in the temple. Then they tried to force Daniel 9:27 into it all. Yes there is similarity between Daniel 9:27’s reference to the causing of the sacrifice to cease with the note in Daniel 8 that says the little horn takes away the daily sacrifice. But Daniel 9:27 does not say that the cessation of the sacrifices and oblations had anything to do with breaking the covenant that was confirmed. It simply says a covenant was "confirmed," not "made," and sacrifices ceased 3.5 years later.

How Futurists arrive at a conclusion of saying the covenant is the commencement of sacrifices by the Jews in a temple is through assumption that the little horn’s removal of sacrifices, and the son of perdition’s exaltation of himself in the temple are one and the same event. They assume that the son of perdition’s self-exaltation in God’s temple is how the little horn of Daniel 8 takes away sacrifices.

I know I won't change your mind, and that is fine...to each his own on this...I just know I am watching for Jesus, not the antichrist.

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:44 PM
I agree. I also agree that applying something the anti-christ does to Christ is equally wrong, erroneous, and bordering upon the blasphemous.
All that aside, I gather that you are not going to give any further indication of how you determine who 'he' is beyond what you've already given. Perhaps David Taylor can give a clearer answer.
I gather also that there is no actual clear-cut end of the 490 year period as none has yet been given, beyond various events that took place some time after the resurrection, leaving the end to just sort of fade away.
The apparent discrepancy in the 'comfirm the covenant one week' while being cut off in the middle of it, has been indirectly answered, so I'll drop that one.
By the way, BTM, that was a very nice assessment you provided. Good basic understanding of the scriptures.
Would you care to tackle the issue with chapter 11?


I have already shown you that the starting point is identified in the OT. Moreover, there is nothing in the text to decapitate it or propel part of the 70 weeks into the unknown. Therefore, the 70 weeks are long up. Interestingly, it coincided with Christ's earthly ministry. That seals it. There can be none other application. It was perfectly fulfilled in Messiah. Who else could have fulfilled the requirements? You have yet to show how any man would have that ability. If you can't see it that is fine. All I can say is, I see it clear.

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:45 PM
Believes, but God isnt thru with Israel, and Israel is the clock all should watch. All prophecy students know the last week of Daniels prophecy is still to come. At the death of Jesus only 69 weeks were finished, the last is yet to occur. But dont believe me which I,m sure you dont, go to any and all sites that study the 70 weeks and you will find that most agree with me on the last week.

Junietta
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:53 PM
Believes, but God isnt thru with Israel, and Israel is the clock all should watch. All prophecy students know the last week of Daniels prophecy is still to come. At the death of Jesus only 69 weeks were finished, the last is yet to occur. But dont believe me which I,m sure you dont, go to any and all sites that study the 70 weeks and you will find that most agree with me on the last week.

You are right about the Jews, G W, but wrong about there being one more week to come.
Go by the Scriptures, not by who agrees or does not agree.

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 03:53 PM
All end-of-the-age prophecy revolves around:
God's chosen people (the Jews), God's Promised Land (Israel), and God's Holy City (Jerusalem); and
How the nations of the Earth treat Israel, Jerusalem, and the Jews.Many Bible prophecies have been fulfilled since 1948, e.g., the return of the Jews from nearly 1,900 years of exile (the Diaspora); the re-birth of a Jewish nation under the name "Israel," with language and religious practices intact; return to Israel of sons and daughters of Zion from around the world; and intense hatred of the Jews by all nations and peoples of the world. After the re-establishment of Israel (in 1948), God has promised to provide victory for Israel against all future assaults. Israel is under Divine protection, and all her enemies will be destroyed.
REPRESENTATIVE SCRIPTURES: Genesis 12:2-3: (2) [The LORD speaking to Abram, who would be re-named Abraham, said] "I will make unto you a great nation* and I will bless you.... (3) I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse...." *EXPLANATION: This promised great nation rose as sons of Abraham, through Jacob, and are the Jews. After Jesus, His followers-- Christians-- were grafted into God's olive tree, Israel. Only Jews and Christians are in fellowship with God. Only Jews and Christians have a right to own Jerusalem and Israel. Others who claim Israel and Jerusalem, e.g., Muslims, have a counterfeit claim. The Arabs' inheritance is to land east of Israel, i.e., the Arabian Peninsula. The Arabs' gift from God is not His covenant relationship, but His grace for salvation-- a gift available to every person in the world. Amos 9:11-15: (11) "In that day I will restore David's fallen tent [the nation of Israel], I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be; (12) so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear my name," declares the LORD, who will do these things. (13) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from the hills. (14) I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. (15) I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God. EXPLANATION: Prior to 1948, present-day Israel was a sparsely populated, poor, unproductive wasteland. Since the Jews' return in 1948, the land has become a vibrant, productive, modern, democratic country, by the grace of God and in fulfillment of His promise to the Jews. Zechariah 12:2-4, 6: (2) "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah {Israel] will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. (3) On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. (4) On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. (6) On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place." EXPLANATION: God will not permit Israel to be defeated in battle after the Jews' final return to the Promised Land (in 1948). Nations of the world will turn against Israel and hate the Jews, but they cannot-- they will not-- defeat Israel because all-powerful God will defend the Jews and defeat providentially all of the Jews' enemies! Psalm 83:2-8: (2) See how your [God's] enemies are astir, how your foes raise their heads. (3) With cunning they conspire against your people [the Jews]; they plot against those you cherish. (4) "Come," they say, "let us destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel be remembered no more." (5) With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against you-- (6) the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites, (7) Gebal, Ammon and Amalek, Philistia, with the people of Tyre. (8) Even Assyria has joined them.... EXPLANATION: This list of ancient peoples is the same list of Arab/Muslim nations now fanatically attempting to push the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea, that the nation of Israel will never exist again. Ezekiel, chapter 37: SUMMARY: The LORD gave Ezekiel a vision: He saw a valley littered with many dry bones. The LORD said He would restore the bones. They were joined together and were covered with flesh, as men and women, but they did not breathe. Then, breath came to them from the "four winds", and the assembled forms had the breath of life. The LORD said that these bones depicted the whole house of Israel. The LORD promised to bring His people back to the land of Israel. Ezekiel was then told to take two sticks of wood, writing "Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him" on one and "Ephraim's stick belonging to Joseph and all of the house of Israel associated with him" on the other. Ezekiel was told to unite the two sticks into one because they will never again be divided. Then, "David" will be King over them and they will follow God's laws. COMMENT: This important prophecy, written nearly 2,600 years ago, surely was written for our time. In A.D. 70, Roman legions defeated the Jewish people, destroyed their Temple, and either slaughtered the Jews or carried them into captivity throughout the world-- a nearly nineteen-century period known as "the Diaspora." The Jews remained dispersed until May 14, 1948, when they returned to re-establish Israel (the dry bones becoming flesh). Since 1948, the Jews have re-built Israel under one government (the two sticks joined as one), and God has promised they never again will be defeated. Jews from all parts of the world (the breath from the four winds-- the four cardinal points of the world) have come to Israel. This part of the prophecy has been fulfilled since 1948. Rule under "David" will not occur until the Millennial Kingdom, when Jesus Christ will rule the world and all nations will know and worship God (Jesus was from the House of David, through Joseph-- Matthew 1:1, 6, 16-- and was sometimes called "Son of David."). Deuteronomy 30:1-5, 7: (1) When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, (2) and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul... (3) then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. (4) Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. (5) He will bring you back to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.... (7) The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you....

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:40 PM
God's chosen people (the Jews), God's Promised Land (Israel), and God's Holy City (Jerusalem);

God's chosen people are not the Jews. God's chosen people are all those (Jew and Gentile) that love Jesus and that have been chsen from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, says of the Church, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:47 PM
In Daniel


<H3>The First 69 Weeks

A very specific prediction occurs in verse 25:

9:25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."This includes a mathematical prophecy. Verse 24 states that "seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city." In Hebrew the word translated as "weeks" is pronounced "shabua" and literally means a week of years. The word shabuim would readily be understood as a seven of years in this context, much like the word decade means ten years in English.
Verse 25 then declares that Daniel should "know and Understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jurusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks weeks have been fulfilled." This verse is a precise mathematical prediction of the time of Messiah's coming! In effect, the angel Gabriel told Daniel that after sixty-nine weeks of years the Messiah would be revealed to the nation of Israel!
If a "shabuim" is a week (seven) of years, it therefore follows that 69 sevens is 483 years (69 x 7= 483 years).

The Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 (http://www.direct.ca/trinity/king.html#4) 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days.
In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days. The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)


Only 69 weeks have been fulfilled, the final week is yet to come
</H3>

slightlypuzzled
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:50 PM
Where do you get a 2,000 plus year gap?

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:54 PM
I didnt notice any Christian in the list, and these mentioned go thru the tribulation that arent on the list.


7:1 (http://bibleforums.org/) After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.cb(7,2); 7:2 (http://bibleforums.org/) I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea,cb(7,3); 7:3 (http://bibleforums.org/) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”cb(7,4); 7:4 (http://bibleforums.org/) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
cb(7,5);7:5 (http://bibleforums.org/) of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand, of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, cb(7,6);7:6 (http://bibleforums.org/) of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, cb(7,7);7:7 (http://bibleforums.org/) of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, cb(7,8);7:8 (http://bibleforums.org/) of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
cb(7,9);7:9 (http://bibleforums.org/) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.cb(7,10); 7:10 (http://bibleforums.org/) They cried with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
cb(7,11);7:11 (http://bibleforums.org/) All the angels were standing around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before his throne, and worshiped God,cb(7,12); 7:12 (http://bibleforums.org/) saying, “Amen! Blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power, and might, be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
cb(7,13);7:13 (http://bibleforums.org/) One of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?”
cb(7,14);7:14 (http://bibleforums.org/) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.cb(7,15); 7:15 (http://bibleforums.org/) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.cb(7,16); 7:16 (http://bibleforums.org/) They will never be hungry, neither thirsty any more; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat;cb(7,17); 7:17 (http://bibleforums.org/) for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 04:59 PM
After Jesus died and arose and some years after, the Jews were dispersed all thru the world for nearly 2000 years and nothing else happened til Israel returned to the land. Between that event and now is the gap. But the last week has not occured yet. You can read theories about it all over the net, some supporting the view here, but the majority dosent. And the Jews definately dont. The last week begins on the signing of a peace treaty between the Jews and the rest of the world/Arabs, Russia and so forth, all headed by the anti christ.

moonglow
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:09 PM
Believes, but God isnt thru with Israel, and Israel is the clock all should watch. All prophecy students know the last week of Daniels prophecy is still to come. At the death of Jesus only 69 weeks were finished, the last is yet to occur. But dont believe me which I,m sure you dont, go to any and all sites that study the 70 weeks and you will find that most agree with me on the last week.



Yea all the pretrib ones do. I have read them and studied it for years...mostly going by what others said, rather then actually studying the scriptures myself...I would suggest you do that. I am not saying don't take what other writers say into consideration...just be open minded enough to do some exploring outside of those that agree with your views and see how it all actually lines up with scriptures.

The pretribbers say the temple has to be rebuilt...right? Say what Jesus predicted hadn't happened yet..that it wasn't totally destroyed in 70AD because the Wailing Wall is still standing.. but if that propheties wasn't fulfilled, why does the temple have to be rebuilt to start with? Doesn't make much sense...

And they say the scarifices have to start up again in the rebuilt temple then stopped....all this already happened though...do you and them not see there have been NO animal scarifices for thousands of years now? They HAVE stopped...

And why just look for a repeat of history?

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:14 PM
And I know the Temple has to be rebuilt, The Jews today are working all the time on this very thing, and quite a few Christians are helping, All these events begin at the start, not before.

Tom Lessing
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:32 PM
Daniel lines up perfectly with the life of Jesus if anyone has ever studied this...I have some good links on it...most are quiet long though..trying to find something shorter to post:

http://mikeblume.com/treece.htm
What Is the Truth About "the Prince"
in the 70 Weeks of Daniel?

http://www.caledonianfire.org/caledonianfire/docs/daniel.htm
Daniel

http://www.historicism.com/mauro/mauroI-3.htm
DETAILS OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS

http://mikeblume.com/nogap.htm
If Daniel’s 70th Week Was Fulfilled Without a Gap,
Why is the Destruction of Jerusalem (40 years after the cross)
Inserted in the 70 Weeks?


Such a question is usually asked by folks who are not familiar with the wording of Daniel 9:24-27. The destruction of Jerusalem is not said to occur before the 70th Week of Daniel.

The reason people assume it is, is due to a misunderstanding of the following verse:

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Verse 26 mentions 62 weeks. It is understood by all familiar with Daniel 9 that a previous 7 weeks, from verse 25, are already noted, and meant to be considered as well, in reading about the time after the 62 weeks. The coming of Messiah followed the 7 + 62 weeks, or after 69 weeks.

At any rate, this verse is thought to indicate that this is simply saying that all the events listed in verse 26 must occur after the 69th week, and before the 70th week. These events include the event when Messiah would come and be cut off, or crucified, and Jerusalem would be destroyed. The error in this reasoning is that Daniel did not say that all of this would occur before the 70th Week. He simply said Messiah would come after the 7 + 62 Weeks, and then added some incidental issues about the Messiah, including His cutting off and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem.

This last one is probably the shortest of them all for those that don't have the time to read one of the longer ones. I haven't read through them all either actually.

God bless

The second "he" is identified as the prince "that shall come." Bearing in mind that Daniel’s 70 weeks are a chronological timetable of the events in God’s plan for Israel (“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city”) simple exegesis confirms that this prince shall (chronolically) come AFTER the Anointed Prince had been cut off (crucified).

The second “he” is identified as the prince of the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. We are all familiar with the history that Rome under Titus desroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD. Nowhere in the entire canon of Scripture is Jesus identified as the prince of the Roman Empire.

Jesus Himself identified the “he” with Antichrist.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). (Matthew 24: 15)
It is evident that the prince “that shall come” is also the one who shall make a covenant with many in Israel and "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” Jesus would hardly have warned them to flee if the cessation of the sacrifice was caused by His own crucifixion, as some claim.

The second “he is identified with the prince that shall make (confirm) a covenant with the many for one week (seven years).
Jesus Christ’s covenant with His people is an everlasting one and not only for one week (seven years). Jesus never has and never will make a covenant with His people which lasts a mere seven years, He promised:

Mow the Angel of the Lord (the Lord Jesus Christ, Jehjovah, before His incarnation) went up from Golgal to Bochim. And He said, I brought you up from Egypt, and have brought you to the land which I swore to give to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. (Judges 2:1)
When God says “never” He really means “never” and nothing else.

Tom

Junietta
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:32 PM
Gw
Revelation 7 The sealing of the 144,000 took place in the early church. There were thousands upon thousands of Jews that accepted the Lord then. Read my post on that.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52404 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52404)

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:41 PM
But the passage I gave is future, it hasnt occured yet. This happens just at the beginning of the tribulation

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:43 PM
accepting of the entire world to salvation occurs in the tribualtion, its where all those who are wearing white robes are mentioned at the throne. All of them come thru the tribulation

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:45 PM
In revelation


He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.cb(7,15); 7:15 (http://bibleforums.org/) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.cb(7,16); 7:16 (http://bibleforums.org/) They will never be hungry, neither thirsty any more; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat;cb(7,17); 7:17 (http://bibleforums.org/) for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Tom Lessing
Apr 22nd 2006, 05:47 PM
You are right about the Jews, G W, but wrong about there being one more week to come.
Go by the Scriptures, not by who agrees or does not agree.

Let's briefly look at Matthew 24 in which Jesus spoke about the end-times.

Note the importance of the section in parenthesis (verse 15) because it encourages the reader to consider, ponder, think through what He said. What must we consider? Well! The most obvious things to consider are all the things He said after verse 15. Let us in obedience to Him consider those things:

• The utmost necessity to make haste. (verses 16-18)

• The utmost necessity to pray that their (the Jews) flight should not be in winder or on the Sabbath. (verse 20)

WHY ARE ALL THESE THINGS SO NECESSARY? BECAUSE:—

• “. . . then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (verse 21)

• . . . unless those days are shortened the whole human race will perish. (verse 22)

• . . . for the sake of God’s Jewish remnant who will receive Jesus Christ as their Messiah during the Great Tribulation those days will be shortened by His Second Advent during the last stages of the War of Armageddon.

• . . . the afflicted and persecuted Jews and Gentiles during the great Tribulation will have to beware of false Christs, Messiahs and false prophets who are going to lead many astray through great signs and wonders.

• . . . the reason for them not to believe anyone who says “Lo, here is Christ” is because it won’t be necessary to point to Him again (like John the Baptist who said, “There is the Lamb of God”), “For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of man be . . . Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Daniel 7: 13)

• . . . He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (the remnant of Israel) from the four winds [even] from the one end of heaven to the other.

Did all things happen after Christ’s crucifixion, resurrection and ascension or even 70 years later when Titus and his Roman hordes destroyed Jerusalem and the temple? Anyone who says that the prince that shall come in Daniel 9: 27 is Jesus Christ or even Emperor Titus is way off track.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 22nd 2006, 06:26 PM
Gw
Revelation 7 The sealing of the 144,000 took place in the early church. There were thousands upon thousands of Jews that accepted the Lord then. Read my post on that.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52404 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52404)

Are you saying that the following occurred during the early church period.

The breaking open of the first seal - a man on a white horse with a bow.
The breaking open of the second seal - a man on a flaming red horse who takes away the peace from the earth.
The breaking open of the third seal - a man on a black horse with a pair of scales in his hand.
The breaking open of the forth seal - a man on an ashy pale horse whose rider is named DEATH.
The breaking open of the fifth seal - describing the souls of those who suffered martyrdom at the hand of Antichrist during the Great Tribulation under the foot of the altar in heaven.
The breaking open of the sixth seal - a great earthquake; the blackening of the sun into the likeness of a sackcloth of hair; the moon becoming like blood; the stars in the sky dropping to the earth like a fig tree shedding its unripe fruit out of season; the sky rolled up like a scroll and every mountain and hill dislodged from its place; the kings and noblemen, the wealthy and the strong, and everyone slave or free cryinging out "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne. For the great day of His wrath has come."
Have you noticed that the six seals are opened before John's vision of the 144, 000 Jewish evangelists in chapter 7 and that the seventh seal is only openened in chhapter 8? All these events could hardly have happened during the early church unless you would dare to spiritualize every event. But then you should be bold enough to explain what every single event symbolized during the early church.

I put it to you that those events are still future.

Tom

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 06:28 PM
And I know the Temple has to be rebuilt, The Jews today are working all the time on this very thing, and quite a few Christians are helping, All these events begin at the start, not before.

You are trying to built a temple that God destroyed. Christ is the only temple where the people of God satisfactorily worship . Being "in Christ" we are the temple of God.

Paul

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 06:31 PM
The second "he" is identified as the prince "that shall come." Bearing in mind that Daniel’s 70 weeks are a chronological timetable of the events in God’s plan for Israel (“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city”) simple exegesis confirms that this prince shall (chronolically) come AFTER the Anointed Prince had been cut off (crucified).

The second “he” is identified as the prince of the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. We are all familiar with the history that Rome under Titus desroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD. Nowhere in the entire canon of Scripture is Jesus identified as the prince of the Roman Empire.




Jesus Himself identified the “he” with Antichrist.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). (Matthew 24: 15)It is evident that the prince “that shall come” is also the one who shall make a covenant with many in Israel and "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” Jesus would hardly have warned them to flee if the cessation of the sacrifice was caused by His own crucifixion, as some claim.

The second “he is identified with the prince that shall make (confirm) a covenant with the many for one week (seven years).



Jesus Christ’s covenant with His people is an everlasting one and not only for one week (seven years). Jesus never has and never will make a covenant with His people which lasts a mere seven years, He promised:
Mow the Angel of the Lord (the Lord Jesus Christ, Jehjovah, before His incarnation) went up from Golgal to Bochim. And He said, I brought you up from Egypt, and have brought you to the land which I swore to give to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. (Judges 2:1)When God says “never” He really means “never” and nothing else.

Tom

Please show how anti-Christ fulfilled these 6 things?

Daniel 9:24 predicts,“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to(1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to(4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to(6) anoint the most Holy”

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 06:37 PM
What I am saying is that the Temple on the Temple mount must be rebuilt before the return. I also didnt say it was to be the final Temple. But it has to be there before the return of the Messiah for all the prophicies to happen. It has nothing to do with your salvation, it has to do with the end of days and the beginning of the tribulation. The Temple that is the one that will last forever is coming with the Messiah, and will be right here on earth, no one is going to heaven

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 06:40 PM
21:1 (http://bibleforums.org/) I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more.cb(21,2); 21:2 (http://bibleforums.org/) I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.cb(21,3); 21:3 (http://bibleforums.org/) I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.cb(21,4); 21:4 (http://bibleforums.org/) He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”

Junietta
Apr 22nd 2006, 06:53 PM
it might be a good time for some of you to read the Scenario of the Seven Seals.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52565 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52565)

Jesus Our King gives a good view of the whole period of the Kingdom of Christ

Tom Lessing
Apr 22nd 2006, 06:54 PM
Please show how anti-Christ fulfilled these 6 things?

Daniel 9:24 predicts,“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to(1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to(4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to(6) anoint the most Holy”

Paul

I never said or even implied that Antichrist is going to fufill all those events and neither does the Bible say it.

The one thing you seem to have failed to see is that his prophecy was decreed upon Daniel's people (the Jews) and Daniel's holy city Jerusalem and not the church. (Daniel 9: 24). Don't you know that the church was still unknown in the Old Testament and only a mystery?


Was transgression brought to an end with Jesus' crucifixion? Looking at "Oh what a wonderful world" it hardly seems that transgression came to an end.
Was sin sealed up and was a full measure of sin made up when Jesus died on the cross?
Was everlasting righteousness brought onto the earth when Jesus was crucified?
At His first advent Jesus came to pay for the sins of the world. He paid the ransom and made it possible for anyone who (whosoever) repents and believes the Gospel to receive eternal life. Are you sinless? Had He made an end to sin we would have been living in heavenly bliss already. This will only happen when He returns at His Second Advent.

Tom

Kahtar
Apr 22nd 2006, 07:14 PM
The question of who is 'he' was actually addressed in one of the links I provided on the first post...for those that still have questions on it.Thank you, Moonglow. That comes the closest to actually answering my question.

Yea, I really don't think there is a definitive moment that someone can point to and say here's where the 70th week ended. But I would say that Acts 13:46 sums it up.Yes, I am inclined to agree.

I have already shown you that the starting point is identified in the OT. Moreover, there is nothing in the text to decapitate it or propel part of the 70 weeks into the unknown. Therefore, the 70 weeks are long up. Interestingly, it coincided with Christ's earthly ministry. That seals it. There can be none other application. It was perfectly fulfilled in Messiah. Who else could have fulfilled the requirements? You have yet to show how any man would have that ability. If you can't see it that is fine. All I can say is, I see it clear.I am inclined to agree with you WPM. And you are correct, I have yet to show anything. Wasn't my intent. I just wanted some questions answered. Thank you for putting up with my insistance upon getting them answered.
Still hoping you'll address the chapter 11 thing, tho.

ScottJohnson
Apr 22nd 2006, 07:48 PM
Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.


Maybe the dispute shouldn't be about who the "he" is in verse 27 but rather who the "many" are. The prophecy is undoubtedly concerning the Jewish people. The "many" from where I'm standing would have to be the Jews. The covenant is ratified at the cross but confirmed by the Holy Spirt through preaching of the gospel message.

The confirmation process began at Jesus' baptism when He was anointed by the Holy Spirit. This was the beginning of the final week. From this point Jesus began spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. During the Lord's earthly ministry, the message was only preached to Jews and Samaritans. Somewhere inside of this seven year period Jesus was crucified, (cut off but not for Himself and causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease) The story continues, in the second chapter of a Acts, after spending sometime idle, the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples, and the confirmation process was up and running again. The apostles began to boldly proclaim the Gospel.

I am inclined to believe as has already been pointed out on this thread, that the gospel message only went out to the Jews for at least another three years until until Peter was instructed to go an preach to Cornelius (Acts chap 10) and his family. It was at about this same time that Paul realized that his mission was to the gentiles.

Act 13:45-49
(45) And the Jews seeing the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things being spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
(46) But speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said,It was necessary for the Word of God to be spoken first to you; but since you indeed thrust it away and judge yourselves not worthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the nations.
(47) For so the Lord has commanded us, "I have set You for a Light of nations, that You be for salvation to the end of the earth." Isa. 49:6
(48) And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(49) And the Word of the Lord was borne through all the country.

Tom Lessing
Apr 22nd 2006, 07:50 PM
it might be a good time for some of you to read the Scenario of the Seven Seals.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52565 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52565)

Jesus Our King gives a good view of the whole period of the Kingdom of Christ

To this date the Jews have been dispersed throughout the entire world. One can hardly derive from this that 12 000 Jews from every tribe had already been sent out in the past to evangelize the world. Verse 16 and 17 of chapter 6 alone demolishes the preterist view that all these events have already taken place in the past. When did the kings, noblemen, rich, free and slave cry out "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne . . . . For the great day of His wrath has come?" The breaking open of the eight seals will follow each other in close succession during the last week (seven year tribulation).

The rider on a white horse with a bow in Rev. 6:2 is not the Lord Jesus Christ but Antichrist. A bow usually goes with arrows (weaponry) but here he is depicted as a person with authority who cames to bring peace. Daniel describes this particular event as follows: "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.” (Daniel 8: 25). His initial policy will be to bring peace on the earth and he is going to succeed in bringing about a false peace but will gradually show his true colors when he is going to take away peace from the earth (second seal: verses 2 and 3). Paul also referred to the false peace in 1 Thessalonians 5: 3 "“For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” (1 Thessalonians 5: 3).

Jesus Christ appears on a white horse in Revelation 19 to destroy Antichrist and his armies poised to attack Jerusalem (". . . he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand).

Tom

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 08:19 PM
Don't you know that the church was still unknown in the Old Testament and only a mystery?

That is one of the biggest delusions that Darby invented. Futurist are wrong here. Such is highlighted by their blind refusal to accept the existence of the Church in the Old Testament despite it being found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament - Septuagint (LXX) – which Christ and the Apostles employed during the early Church. That is the exact same amount of times that it is found in the New Testament. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born.

The ‘Church’ ekklesia -1577 is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX), in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, I Chroniciles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.



Was transgression brought to an end with Jesus' crucifixion? Looking at "Oh what a wonderful world" it hardly seems that transgression came to an end.
Was sin sealed up and was a full measure of sin made up when Jesus died on the cross?
Was everlasting righteousness brought onto the earth when Jesus was crucified?
At His first advent Jesus came to pay for the sins of the world. He paid the ransom and made it possible for anyone who (whosoever) repents and believes the Gospel to receive eternal life. Are you sinless? Had He made an end to sin we would have been living in heavenly bliss already. This will only happen when He returns at His Second Advent.


That is not true. As has been shown by several writers, the penalty for sin has been paid thus abolishing the old covenant sacrificial system. The veil has been rent. The transaction is finished. God is satisfied.

Also, your closing comment is in error. Sin is rampant in your supposed future millennium. Clearly in your paradigm it it continues to abound. Take 2.

Paul

Tom Lessing
Apr 22nd 2006, 08:31 PM
Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people, and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.


Maybe the dispute shouldn't be about who the "he" is in verse 27 but rather who the "many" are. The prophecy is undoubtedly concerning the Jewish people. The "many" from where I'm standing would have to be the Jews. The covenant is ratified at the cross but confirmed by the Holy Spirt through preaching of the gospel message.

The confirmation process began at Jesus' baptism when He was anointed by the Holy Spirit. This was the beginning of the final week. From this point Jesus began spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. During the Lord's earthly ministry, the message was only preached to Jews and Samaritans. Somewhere inside of this seven year period Jesus was crucified, (cut off but not for Himself and causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease) The story continues, in the second chapter of a Acts, after spending sometime idle, the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples, and the confirmation process was up and running again. The apostles began to boldly proclaim the Gospel.

I am inclined to believe as has already been pointed out on this thread, that the gospel message only went out to the Jews for at least another three years until until Peter was instructed to go an preach to Cornelius (Acts chap 10) and his family. It was at about this same time that Paul realized that his mission was to the gentiles.

Act 13:45-49
(45) And the Jews seeing the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things being spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
(46) But speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said,It was necessary for the Word of God to be spoken first to you; but since you indeed thrust it away and judge yourselves not worthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the nations.
(47) For so the Lord has commanded us, "I have set You for a Light of nations, that You be for salvation to the end of the earth." Isa. 49:6
(48) And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(49) And the Word of the Lord was borne through all the country.

God confirmed the New Covenant with Abraham 430 years prior to the giving of the Law and Jesus Christ ratified it by shedding His blood on the cross. Do I have any proof to substantiate what I had said previously? Yes! There is and it is found in Galatians 3: 17. Lets look at it briefly.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
The word προκυρόω [prokuroo /prok•oo•ro•o] appears only once in the New Testament (Galatians 3: 17). It means to “establish beforehand” or to “confirm beforehand”. To understand the phrase “was confirmed before of God in Christ,” we need to see it from God’s perspective and not our finite or temporal human point of view. God is transcendent or to say it otherwise, God transcends His creation. It simply means that God is not part of His creation; He is not restricted or bound by time and space. Everything He says and does is already established or confirmed even though, according to our time and space bound existence, it may have already happened in the past or may still occur in the future. That is why He presented Himself to Moses and the Israelites as “I AM.” While in the past we were, in the present we are and in the future we will be, He is always “I AM.” He sees the past, present and the future simultaneously. The day when God made the New Covenant with Abraham, He confirmed (established) it in His Son knowing beforehand that He would ratify it with His own blood thousands of years later. Therefore is was not necessary for Christ to confirm the New Covenant with Israel because it had already been confirmed by His Father 430 years before the giving of the Law.

Nowhere in the entire New Testament are we told that the Holy Spirit confirmed the covenant Jesus Christ made with the Jews.

Tom

FreeInJesus
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:11 PM
In Daniel

If a "shabuim" is a week (seven) of years, it therefore follows that 69 sevens is 483 years (69 x 7= 483 years).

The Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days.
In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days. The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

Your right on a Jewish calendar, but do you feel leap years are factored in?...or Jubilee and Sabbath cycles??

A Sabbath cycle, every 7 years, which was a week of years, there was a long year. Sabbath, as well as Jubilee years were long, they had 13 months instead of the usual 12.

I see nothing in the Scriptures that says the clock stops or time is frozen between two weeks. Just something else to think about:hmm:

Tom Lessing
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:16 PM
That is one of the biggest delusions that Darby invented. Futurist are wrong here. Such is highlighted by their blind refusal to accept the existence of the Church in the Old Testament despite it being found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament - Septuagint (LXX) – which Christ and the Apostles employed during the early Church. That is the exact same amount of times that it is found in the New Testament. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born.

The ‘Church’ ekklesia -1577 is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX), in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, I Chroniciles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.



24 [Even] now I rejoice in [a]the midst of my sufferings on your behalf. And in my own person I am making up whatever is still lacking and remains to be completed [on our part] of Christ's afflictions, for the sake of His body, which is the church.
25 In it I became a minister in accordance with the divine stewardship which was entrusted to me for you [as its object and for your benefit], to make the Word of God fully known [among you]--
26 The mystery of which was hidden for ages and generations from angels and men], but is now revealed to His holy people (the saints),27 To whom God was pleased to make known how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ within and among you, the Hope of [realizing the] glory.
28 Him we preach and proclaim, warning and admonishing everyone and instructing everyone in all wisdom comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God), that we may present every person mature (full-grown, fully initiated, complete, and perfect) in Christ (the Anointed One).
29 For this I labor unto weariness], striving with all the superhuman energy which He so mightily enkindles and works within me.

The church couldn't possibly have been known or even existed in the Old Testament since the church is Christ's body, resulting from His death on the cross. Indeed, Jesus Himself (when still on earth) said it was future (Matthew 16:16-18). The unique union of Jew and Gentile (Galatians 3:28) was non-existent before Christ died and thhe Spirit descended to baptize all believers into this new body


That is not true. As has been shown by several writers, the penalty for sin has been paid thus abolishing the old covenant sacrificial system. The veil has been rent. The transaction is finished. God is satisfied.

The elimination of the old covenant sacrifical system did not eradicate sin (put and END to sin and bring in EVERLASTING righteousness). Had that been the case we would already have been saved to the uttermost and received our sinless bodies like unto His. The veil has been rent (by his blood) so that we may enter the Holy of Holies in heaven with confidence in order to receive forgiveness for our sins in this present and temporal body of ours. Had a final end of sin already been made and everlasting righteousness been established, the rent veil would have been unnecessary, simply because our new bodies like unto His will be sinless.


Also, your closing comment is in error. Sin is rampant in your supposed future millennium. Clearly in your paradigm it it continues to abound. Take 2.

Paul
When is Jesus Christ going to make an end to sin and usher in everlasting righteousness? He said that He is going to do it and therefore it must be true or is their a slight possibility that He could have been deluded when He used the words "end" and "everlasting?"

Tom

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:48 PM
He is absolutely correct, there was never the Church in the old testament, only synagogues, all Jewish/Israeli, and all believers were Israeli to begin with, and if by chance you werent you went to the Synagogue to hear the word. The Church as we know it wasnt even heard of til much later


BTW, even this is incorrect because there was only the Temple

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:52 PM
It was a Synagogue

ScottJohnson
Apr 22nd 2006, 09:52 PM
Nowhere in the entire New Testament are we told that the Holy Spirit confirmed the covenant Jesus Christ made with the Jews.

You are correct, poor choice of words on my part. Jesus did it. After His indwelling of the Holy Spirit at His baptism and after the crucifixion Jesus continued the confirmation through His disciples and followers after their indwelling by the Spirit.

I agree with your post. The covenant was established even prior to the law. The point however is that Daniel's prophecy of the seventy sevens was given in a way that beings of limited mental capacity would understand. He used a time factor.

Daniel gives no reason to believe that the 490 years would be anything other than a specific consecutive period of 490 years. Not 2,490 years, not 10,490 years. This is why I believe that the final week began at Jesus' baptism. Jesus spent His earthly ministry physically preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven exclusively to the Jews (the many). After His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension He continued to preach spiritually to the Jewish people through His Spirit endowed followers.

There is no time frame given in the NT, but I do believe that from the time of Jesus' baptism to the time that Cornelius received the Gospel message was a period of seven years. I sincerly and honestly feel that this inferrence on my part is far more logical than the insertion of a parenthetical period lasting thousands of years.

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 10:03 PM
24 [Even] now I rejoice in [a]the midst of my sufferings on your behalf. And in my own person I am making up whatever is still lacking and remains to be completed [on our part] of Christ's afflictions, for the sake of His body, which is the church.
25 In it I became a minister in accordance with the divine stewardship which was entrusted to me for you [as its object and for your benefit], to make the Word of God fully known [among you]--
26 The mystery of which was hidden for ages and generations from angels and men], but is now revealed to His holy people (the saints),27 To whom God was pleased to make known how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ within and among you, the Hope of [realizing the] glory.
28 Him we preach and proclaim, warning and admonishing everyone and instructing everyone in all wisdom comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God), that we may present every person mature (full-grown, fully initiated, complete, and perfect) in Christ (the Anointed One).
29 For this I labor unto weariness], striving with all the superhuman energy which He so mightily enkindles and works within me.





Your highlighting is in error. Paul said in Colossians 1:25-27, "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

I'm afraid you are reading to many left behind novels. :spin:

Do you reject my thoughts re the OT Greek LXX Septuagint or are you just side-stepping.?



The church couldn't possibly have been known or even existed in the Old Testament since the church is Christ's body, resulting from His death on the cross. Indeed, Jesus Himself (when still on earth) said it was future (Matthew 16:16-18). The unique union of Jew and Gentile (Galatians 3:28) was non-existent before Christ died and thhe Spirit descended to baptize all believers into this new body.


The saints throughout time have been made one. Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, “ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands (the Jews); That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

He continues, “For he (Christ) is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both (namely the Old Testament Jews and the New Testament Gentiles) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him (Christ) we both have access by one spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Here we see, in plain unambiguous language, the unitary nature of the elect of God – period. There can be no doubt that this passage describes in explicit detail the absolute oneness and complete unity of the people of God throughout all time “in Christ Jesus,” whether Old or New Testament. It shows how they all belong to the one harmonious spiritual organism – the body of Christ – “by the blood of Christ.” The figures used in this reading to symbolise the true elect Church (or congregation) throughout all ages are the body and the temple. These symbols are familiar to the New Testament student, being repeatedly used to portray the sum-total of the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

The relationship between the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints is always depicted as a unitary whole, even though these two groupings bear very unique characteristics. We must remember, they are seen at different stages of growth (in time) despite being one developing spiritual organism. They are often portrayed in a progressive growth, in the same way as the development occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly. They are the same developing entity - only taking on a changing progressive appearance. They are described in Scripture as the initial foundation which the building is built upon, or the root of a plant that the branches finally appear.

It is the expressed unity of the Old and New Testament saints that we must first consider. This reading confirms that Christ has supernaturally reconciled those that “are called uncircumcision” (namely the Gentiles) with those who are “called the circumcision” (namely the Jews) “unto God in one body by the cross.” Plainly there is only “one (mystical) body” of Christ containing those of faith, those that have been spiritually purchased through the Cross. Christ has “made both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,” through His substitutionary atonement. Such a transaction was required to free every repentant sinner belonging to Adam’s race from the awful bondage and consequences of sin. It also sealed the eternal union of the whole “household of God” (Old and New Testament), enabling Christ “to make in himself of twain one new man.” The oneness of the people of God throughout time could not be clearer.

1 Corinthians 15:12 says,“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." All men are naturally born "in Adam" and are thus destined for a Christless hell. Those that are born of God are found "in Christ" and are therefore destined to be with Him for all eternity.




The elimination of the old covenant sacrifical system did not eradicate sin (put and END to sin and bring in EVERLASTING righteousness). Had that been the case we would already have been saved to the uttermost and received our sinless bodies like unto His. The veil has been rent (by his blood) so that we may enter the Holy of Holies in heaven with confidence in order to receive forgiveness for our sins in this present and temporal body of ours. Had a final end of sin already been made and everlasting righteousness been established, the rent veil would have been unnecessary, simply because our new bodies like unto His will be sinless.


When is Jesus Christ going to make an end to sin and usher in everlasting righteousness? He said that He is going to do it and therefore it must be true or is their a slight possibility that He could have been deluded when He used the words "end" and "everlasting?"

Tom


Does sin continue or terminate at the Second Advent?

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 10:08 PM
There can be no doubt that this passage describes in explicit detail the absolute oneness and complete unity of the people of God throughout all time “in Christ Jesus>>>>


Knowing who Jesus was in the old testament, Jesus is the word and has always existed, He was also the creator and the one who spoke to Moses and all the others

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 10:15 PM
He is absolutely correct, there was never the Church in the old testament, only synagogues, all Jewish/Israeli, and all believers were Israeli to begin with, and if by chance you werent you went to the Synagogue to hear the word. The Church as we know it wasnt even heard of til much later


BTW, even this is incorrect because there was only the Temple

Really? I will give you a few.


The ‘Church’ ekklesia -1577 is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX), in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, I Chroniciles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.

KJV - Deuteronomy 4:10 says, “Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 4:10 says, “hmeran {<2250> N-ASF} hn {<3739> R-ASF} esthte {<2476> V-AAI-2P} enantion {<1726> PREP} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM} tou {<3588> T-GSM} yeou {<2316> N-GSM} umwn {<4771> P-GP} en {<1722> PREP} cwrhb {N-PRI} th {<3588> T-DSF} hmera {<2250> N-DSF} thv {<3588> T-GSF} ekklhsiav { (ekklesia-1577) N-GSF} ote {<3753> ADV} eipen {V-AAI-3S} kuriov {<2962> N-NSM} prov {<4314> PREP} me {<1473> P-AS} ekklhsiason {V-AAD-2S} prov {<4314> PREP} me {<1473> P-AS} ton {<3588> T-ASM} laon {<2992> N-ASM} kai {<2532> CONJ} akousatwsan {<191> V-AAD-3P} ta {<3588> T-APN} rhmata {N-APN} mou {<1473> P-GS} opwv {<3704> CONJ} maywsin {<3129> V-AAS-3P} fobeisyai {<5399> V-PMN} me {<1473> P-AS} pasav {<3956> A-APF} tav {<3588> T-APF} hmerav {<2250> N-APF} av {<3739> R-APF} autoi {<846> D-NPM} zwsin {<2198> V-PAI-3P} epi {<1909> PREP} thv {<3588> T-GSF} ghv {<1065> N-GSF} kai {<2532> CONJ} touv {<3588> T-APM} uiouv {<5207> N-APM} autwn {<846> D-GPM} didaxwsin {<1321> V-AAS-3P}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Deuteronomy 9:10 says, “And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 9:10 says, “kai {<2532> CONJ} edwken {<1325> V-AAI-3S} kuriov {<2962> N-NSM} emoi {<1473> P-DS} tav {<3588> T-APF} duo {<1417> N-NUI} plakav {<4109> N-APF} tav {<3588> T-APF} liyinav {<3035> A-APF} gegrammenav {<1125> V-RMPAP} en {<1722> PREP} tw {<3588> T-DSM} daktulw {<1147> N-DSM} tou {<3588> T-GSM} yeou {<2316> N-GSM} kai {<2532> CONJ} ep {<1909> PREP} autaiv {<846> D-DPF} egegrapto {<1125> V-YPI-3S} pantev {<3956> A-NPM} oi {<3588> T-NPM} logoi {<3056> N-NPM} ouv {<3739> R-APM} elalhsen {<2980> V-AAI-3S} kuriov {<2962> N-NSM} prov {<4314> PREP} umav {<4771> P-AP} en {<1722> PREP} tw {<3588> T-DSN} orei {<3735> N-DSN} hmera {<2250> N-DSF} ekklhsiav { (ekklesia-1577) N-GSF}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Deuteronomy 18:16 says, “According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 18:16 says, “kata {<2596> PREP} panta {<3956> A-APN} osa {<3745> A-APN} hthsw {<154> V-AMI-2S} para {<3844> PREP} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM} tou {<3588> T-GSM} yeou {<2316> N-GSM} sou {<4771> P-GS} en {<1722> PREP} cwrhb {N-PRI} th {<3588> T-DSF} hmera {<2250> N-DSF} thv {<3588> T-GSF} ekklhsiav { (ekklesia-1577) N-GSF} legontev {<3004> V-PAPNP} ou {<3364> ADV} prosyhsomen {<4369> V-FAI-1P} akousai {<191> V-AAN} thn {<3588> T-ASF} fwnhn {<5456> N-ASF} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM} tou {<3588> T-GSM} yeou {<2316> N-GSM} hmwn {<1473> P-GP} kai {<2532> CONJ} to {<3588> T-ASN} pur {<4442> N-ASN} to {<3588> T-ASN} mega {<3173> A-ASN} touto {<3778> D-ASN} ouk {<3364> ADV} oqomeya {<3708> V-FMI-1P} eti {<2089> ADV} oude {<3761> CONJ} mh {<3165> ADV} apoyanwmen {<599> V-AAS-1P}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Deuteronomy 23:1 says, “He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 23:1 (23:2) says, “ouk {<3364> ADV} eiseleusetai {<1525> V-FMI-3S} yladiav {N-NSM} kai {<2532> CONJ} apokekommenov {<609> V-RMPNS} eiv {<1519> PREP} ekklhsian { (ekklesia-1577) N-ASF} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Deuteronomy 23:2 says, “B*stard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 23:2 (23:3) says, “ouk {<3364> ADV} eiseleusetai {<1525> V-FMI-3S} ek {<1537> PREP} pornhv {<4204> N-GSF} eiv {<1519> PREP} ekklhsian { (ekklesia-1577) N-ASF} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Deuteronomy 23:3 says, “An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 23:3 (23:4) says, “ouk {<3364> ADV} eiseleusetai {<1525> V-FMI-3S} ammanithv {N-NSM} kai {<2532> CONJ} mwabithv {N-NSM} eiv {<1519> PREP} ekklhsian { (ekklesia-1577) N-ASF} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM} kai {<2532> CONJ} ewv {<2193> PREP} dekathv {<1182> A-GSF} geneav {<1074> N-GSF} ouk {<3364> ADV} eiseleusetai {<1525> V-FMI-3S} eiv {<1519> PREP} ekklhsian { (ekklesia-1577) N-ASF} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM} kai {<2532> CONJ} ewv {<2193> CONJ} eiv {<1519> PREP} ton {<3588> T-ASM} aiwna {<165> N-ASM}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Deuteronomy 23:8 says, “The children that are begotten of them shall enter into the congregation of the LORD in their third generation.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 23:8 (23:9) says, “uioi {<5207> N-NPM} ean {<1437> CONJ} genhywsin {<1096> V-APS-3P} autoiv {<846> D-DPM} genea {<1074> N-NSF} trith {<5154> A-NSF} eiseleusontai {<1525> V-FMI-3P} eiv {<1519> PREP} ekklhsian { (ekklesia-1577) N-ASF} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Deuteronomy 31:30 says, “And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.”

LXX - Deuteronomy 31:30 says, “kai {<2532> CONJ} elalhsen {<2980> V-AAI-3S} mwushv {N-NSM} eiv {<1519> PREP} ta {<3588> T-APN} wta {<3775> N-APN} pashv {<3956> A-GSF} ekklhsiav { (ekklesia-1577) N-GSF} israhl {<2474> N-PRI} ta {<3588> T-APN} rhmata {N-APN} thv {<3588> T-GSF} wdhv {<3592> N-GSF} tauthv {<3778> D-GSF} ewv {<2193> CONJ} eiv {<1519> PREP} telov {<5056> N-ASN}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Joshua 8:35 says, “There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.”

LXX - Joshua 8:35 (9:2f) says, “ouk {<3364> ADV} hn {<1510> V-IAI-3S} rhma {N-NSN} apo {<575> PREP} pantwn {<3956> A-GPN} wn {<3739> R-GPM} eneteilato {<1781> V-AMI-3S} mwushv {N-NSM} tw {<3588> T-DSM} ihsoi {<2424> N-PRI} o {<3739> R-ASN} ouk {<3364> ADV} anegnw {<314> V-AAI-3S} ihsouv {<2424> N-PRI} eiv {<1519> PREP} ta {<3588> T-APN} wta {<3775> N-APN} pashv {<3956> A-GSF} ekklhsiav { (ekklesia-1577) N-GSF} uiwn {<5207> N-GPM} israhl {<2474> N-PRI} toiv {<3588> T-DPM} andrasin {<435> N-DPM} kai {<2532> CONJ} taiv {<3588> T-DPF} gunaixin {<1135> N-DPF} kai {<2532> CONJ} toiv {<3588> T-DPN} paidioiv {<3813> N-DPN} kai {<2532> CONJ} toiv {<3588> T-DPM} proshlutoiv {<4339> N-DPM} toiv {<3588> T-DPM} prosporeuomenoiv {<4365> V-PMPDP} tw {<3588> T-DSM} israhl {<2474> N-PRI}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Judges 20:2 says, “And the chief of all the people, even of all the tribes of Israel, presented themselves in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand footmen that drew sword.”

LXX - Judges 20:2 says, “kai {<2532> CONJ} estayhsan {<2476> V-API-3P} kata {<2596> PREP} proswpon {<4383> N-ASN} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM} pasai {<3956> A-NPF} ai {<3588> T-NPF} fulai {<5443> N-NPF} tou {<3588> T-GSM} israhl {<2474> N-PRI} en {<1722> PREP} ekklhsia { (ekklesia-1577) N-DSF} tou {<3588> T-GSM} laou {<2992> N-GSM} tou {<3588> T-GSM} yeou {<2316> N-GSM} tetrakosiai {<5071> A-NPF} ciliadev {<5505> N-NPF} andrwn {<435> N-GPM} pezwn {A-GPM} elkontev {V-PAPNP} romfaian {N-ASF}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Judges 21:5 says, “And the children of Israel said, Who is there among all the tribes of Israel that came not up with the congregation unto the LORD? For they had made a great oath concerning him that came not up to the LORD to Mizpeh, saying, He shall surely be put to death.”

LXX - Judges 21:5 says, “kai {<2532> CONJ} eipon {V-AAI-3P} oi {<3588> T-NPM} uioi {<5207> N-NPM} israhl {<2474> N-PRI} tiv {<5100> I-NSN} ouk {<3364> ADV} anebh {<305> V-AAI-3S} en {<1722> PREP} th {<3588> T-DSF} ekklhsia { (ekklesia-1577) N-DSF} apo {<575> PREP} paswn {<3956> A-GPF} fulwn {<5443> N-GPF} israhl {<2474> N-PRI} prov {<4314> PREP} kurion {<2962> N-ASM} oti {<3754> CONJ} o {<3588> T-NSM} orkov {<3727> N-NSM} megav {<3173> A-NSM} hn {<1510> V-IAI-3S} toiv {<3588> T-DPM} ouk {<3364> ADV} anabebhkosin {<305> V-RAPDP} prov {<4314> PREP} kurion {<2962> N-ASM} eiv {<1519> PREP} masshfa {N-PRI} legontev {<3004> V-PAPNP} yanatw {<2288> N-DSM} yanatwyhsetai {<2289> V-FPI-3S}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - Judges 21:8 says, “And they said, What one is there of the tribes of Israel that came not up to Mizpeh to the LORD? And, behold, there came none to the camp from Jabeshgilead to the assembly.”

LXX - Judges 21:8 says, “kai {<2532> CONJ} eipan {V-AAI-3P} tiv {<5100> I-NSM} eiv {<1519> A-NSM} apo {<575> PREP} fulwn {<5443> N-GPF} israhl {<2474> N-PRI} ov {<3739> R-NSM} ouk {<3364> ADV} anebh {<305> V-AAI-3S} prov {<4314> PREP} kurion {<2962> N-ASM} eiv {<1519> PREP} masshfa {N-PRI} kai {<2532> CONJ} idou {<2400> INJ} ouk {<3364> ADV} hlyen {<2064> V-AAI-3S} anhr {<435> N-NSM} eiv {<1519> PREP} thn {<3588> T-ASF} parembolhn {N-ASF} apo {<575> PREP} iabiv {N-PRI} galaad {N-PRI} eiv {<1519> PREP} thn {<3588> T-ASF} ekklhsian { (ekklesia-1577) N-ASF}.”

************************************************** ***********************************

KJV - 1 Samuel 17:47 says, “And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD’S, and he will give you into our hands.”

LXX - 1 Samuel 17:47 says, “kai {<2532> CONJ} gnwsetai {<1097> V-FMI-3S} pasa {<3956> A-NSF} h {<3588> T-NSF} ekklhsia { (ekklesia-1577) N-NSF} auth {<3778> D-NSF} oti {<3754> CONJ} ouk {<3364> ADV} en {<1722> PREP} romfaia {N-DSF} kai {<2532> CONJ} dorati {N-DSN} swzei {<4982> V-PAI-3S} kuriov {<2962> N-NSM} oti {<3754> CONJ} tou {<3588> T-GSM} kuriou {<2962> N-GSM} o {<3588> T-NSM} polemov {<4171> N-NSM} kai {<2532> CONJ} paradwsei {<3860> V-FAI-3S} kuriov {<2962> N-NSM} umav {<4771> P-AP} eiv {<1519> PREP} ceirav {<5495> N-APF} hmwn {<1473> P-GP}.”

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 22nd 2006, 10:51 PM
Saying, The "church" known in the old testament was a Synagogue, and the members were called the assembly. In the Temple they were also called the same. Perhaps a few lessons in Hebrew would be to your advantage?

The old testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek, and the Bible we use today was taken from Hebrew and transliterated into other languages.

wpm
Apr 22nd 2006, 11:10 PM
Saying, The "church" known in the old testament was a Synagogue, and the members were called the assembly. In the Temple they were also called the same. Perhaps a few lessons in Hebrew would be to your advantage?

The old testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek, and the Bible we use today was taken from Hebrew and transliterated into other languages.

The Church is simply the assembly or congregation of God's people.

What is the Greek word in the NT for "Church"?


Paul

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 12:44 AM
The Church is simply the assembly or congregation of God's people.

What is the Greek word in the NT for "Church"?


Paul


wpm, you have done an excellent job on this thread...I admire your work on here greatly. :) I wish I was smart enough to explain it all so well...maybe one day I can. Meanwhile I am learning a great deal just from reading your post. thanks and keep up the good work.

In answer to your question...what is the Greek word in the NT for "Church"...

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1577

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1577 eÍkklhsiða

Definition


1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
2. the assembly of the Israelites
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
4. in a Christian sense
1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

Translated Words
KJV (118) - assembly, 3; church, 115;

NAS (114) - assembly, 3; church, 74; churches, 35; congregation, 2;

Church is excatly the same as "assembly"...

God bless

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:37 AM
Is knowing that the old testament was NOT written in Greek, when you figure that out you will begin to get it right. Til then you are posting what you have been taught. Do either of you really believe the old was written in Greek?? The entire Bible was written by Israelis, In Hebrew. Even Paul, who many say wasnt Hebrew is totally wrong. He was Jewish. So in summation, the idea that "church" was ever used in the old testament is a farce. Surely both of you know better unless you do believe Hebrew was not the language in olden times of the Tribes of Israel. Even in Jesus' time it wasnt Greek they spoke, it was either Hebrew or Aramaic, Makes little sense to think they spoke Greek. It would make more sense to say they spoke Latin


Here is the real Paul, and he is definately Jewish. "The Pharisee Saul of Tarsus" How many Gentiles have you ever heard of that was a Pharisee??? None.

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:47 AM
Is knowing that the old testament was NOT written in Greek, when you figure that out you will begin to get it right. Til then you are posting what you have been taught. Do either of you really believe the old was written in Greek?? The entire Bible was written by Israelis, In Hebrew. Even Paul, who many say wasnt Hebrew is totally wrong. He was Jewish. So in summation, the idea that "church" was ever used in the old testament is a farce. Surely both of you know better unless you do believe Hebrew was not the language in olden times of the Tribes of Israel. Even in Jesus' time it wasnt Greek they spoke, it was either Hebrew or Aramaic, Makes little sense to think they spoke Greek. It would make more sense to say they spoke Latin


Here is the real Paul, and he is definately Jewish. "The Pharisee Saul of Tarsus" How many Gentiles have you ever heard of that was a Pharisee??? None.

I think you misunderstood the question...he asked for the greek defination in the NEW testment, not the old.

Explain why the lexicon is set up like this then:

http://www.studylight.org/lex/

Old testment ...Herbrew

New testment...greek.

anyway if you disagree with that defination then please find the lanuage in the New Testment and see what the defination for church is and post it so we can all see. ..thanks.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:50 AM
And it definately isnt Greek. I highly doubt the new was either, but thats the given in the Church. Jews will disagree with it, but that makes little difference because no one believes them. And that alone is strange because they are the one God gave the Oracals to, not Greeks, or Gentiles.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:06 AM
Where in the Bible does it say the language was Greek? There were no Greeks there, Romans were. So to say the Jews spoke Greek is a reaL STRETCH. Hebrew, or Latin, or even Yiddish makes far more sense. And any good Jew will tell you the new testament is written in Beautiful Hebrew just by the way it is written, But really bad Greek. Those that have actually read it of course, and believe it or not there are some who have. The view that it was written in Greek is an intellectual view and has little or no true believer goals in it. But I will go with the common view just because there is no use in not.

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:42 AM
The Church is simply the assembly or congregation of God's people.

What is the Greek word in the NT for "Church"?


Paul


GW here is his quote...he put "NT"...NT stands for New Testment.


Even in Jesus' time it wasnt Greek they spoke, it was either Hebrew or Aramaic, Makes little sense to think they spoke Greek. It would make more sense to say they spoke Latin

Where are you getting your information from?

I did a quick search and found what lanuages the bible was written in:

Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek

http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/language/languages.htm

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/bible_languages.htm

The Prophets and the Apostles have recorded in written form a portion of the oral teaching of the Old Testament in Hebrew and Aramaic as well as the New Testament in Greek.


http://www.truthnet.org/Christianity/Apologetics/IsthebiblefromGod7/
The Bible is written in 3 languages.

The Old Testament is written in two languages; Hebrew and Aramaic. The New Testament is written in Koine[2] Greek.



Where in the Bible does it say the language was Greek?

why would the bible say what lanuage it was written in? That would be like me saying I am currently writting in english. Those that can read english can clearly see what lanuage I am using...there is no need for me to say what lanuage I am typing in.


There were no Greeks there, Romans were. So to say the Jews spoke Greek is a reaL STRETCH. Hebrew, or Latin, or even Yiddish makes far more sense. And any good Jew will tell you the new testament is written in Beautiful Hebrew just by the way it is written, But really bad Greek.

A true Jew doesn't even accept or read the New Testment...only the first five books of the OT which are written in Hebrew. But I am not talking about the OT here...only the NT anyway.

The Jews were under the rule of the Romans in the NT, the Romans didn't write the bible...they have nothing to do with the lanuage of it so I have no idea why you brought that up in the first place.

RickA
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:45 AM
Moonglow wrote:

The 70 weeks of Daniel is fulfilled and was a long time ago

It's kind of sad to see that people still get mixed up with scripture and mislead others. Even the NIV translation shows the Anitichrist will set up the abomination in the Temple. Jesus would never do such a thing.

NIV
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [i] In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

regarding the 70 weeks, If people would look at the news they would know that a "Confirmed Covenant with Many" is already in the works for seven years and we are fast approaching the last week. By the time people that think the "He" was Jesus in Dan 9:27 and they realize they were wrong, we will be standing right at the door of the last 7 years.

ScottJohnson
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:37 AM
Wikepedia, the Free Encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Language)

The common language spoken in the time of Jesus was Aramaic. However, the original text of the New Testament was most likely written in the Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in 1st-century Roman provinces, and has since been widely translated into other languages, most notably, Latin Syriac, and Coptic. (However some of the church fathers seem to imply that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or more likely Aramaic, and there is another contention that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote in Hebrew, which was translated into Greek by Luke. Neither view holds much support among contemporary scholars, who argue that the literary facets of Matthew and Hebrews suggest that they were composed directly in Greek, rather than being translated.

It is notable that many books of the New Testament, especially the gospel of Mark and the book of Revelation, are written in relatively poor Greek. They are far from the refined Attic Greek or Classical Greek found composed by the higher classes, ruling elites, and trained philosophers of the time. Relative exception to this include the gospels of Luke and John and the Acts of the Apostles, the latter probably written or redacted by the same person who wrote or redacted Luke.

A very small minority of scholars consider the Aramaic version of the New Testament to be the original and believe the Greek is a translation

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:55 AM
Where in the Bible does it say the language was Greek? There were no Greeks there, Romans were. So to say the Jews spoke Greek is a reaL STRETCH. Hebrew, or Latin, or even Yiddish makes far more sense. And any good Jew will tell you the new testament is written in Beautiful Hebrew just by the way it is written, But really bad Greek. Those that have actually read it of course, and believe it or not there are some who have. The view that it was written in Greek is an intellectual view and has little or no true believer goals in it. But I will go with the common view just because there is no use in not.

The New Testament writings were in Koine Greek, the colloquial language bequethed on them through Alexander the Great. The Jewish people interacted with many 'foreigners' and so had a rudimentary knowledge of Greek. As the church aged, it became more of a 'Gentile' thing, with many more gentiles than Jews. This became more so after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Pau wrote his letters in Greek to a largely gentile audience. The use of greek to write most of the New Testament is well established.
Now, some of the synoptic Gospels might have been writtien in Aramaic; a cousin of Hebrew. When the exiles came back from Babylon, that was the language of the people. It was the dominant language of the people in Jesus time. Aramaic targums, or paraphrases, of the Hebrew scriptures were written by several rabbis, as well as the Septuagint Greek translation of the OT. There are many studies done on the supposed composition of Aramaic gospels of Matthew. If church history is correct, Luke was originally written in Greek, and is the first of a two part history with Acts as the completion. Both were written in excellent Greek of that time. They are the most 'literate Greek' of the NT writings.
Latin, while spoken by the Roman conquerors, was never forced upon the people they conquered; they preferred to let the native language thrive. Also, the Romans were greatly entranced by the Greek language, but they seem to feel the superiority of all things Greek; so they simply left Greek as the dominat language in the Roman Empire, using Latin for legal transcriptions and notices.

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 08:41 AM
Your highlighting is in error. Paul said in Colossians 1:25-27, "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

I'm afraid you are reading to many left behind novels. :spin:

Do you reject my thoughts re the OT Greek LXX Septuagint or are you just side-stepping.?



The saints throughout time have been made one. Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, “ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands (the Jews); That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

He continues, “For he (Christ) is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both (namely the Old Testament Jews and the New Testament Gentiles) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him (Christ) we both have access by one spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Here we see, in plain unambiguous language, the unitary nature of the elect of God – period. There can be no doubt that this passage describes in explicit detail the absolute oneness and complete unity of the people of God throughout all time “in Christ Jesus,” whether Old or New Testament. It shows how they all belong to the one harmonious spiritual organism – the body of Christ – “by the blood of Christ.” The figures used in this reading to symbolise the true elect Church (or congregation) throughout all ages are the body and the temple. These symbols are familiar to the New Testament student, being repeatedly used to portray the sum-total of the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

The relationship between the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints is always depicted as a unitary whole, even though these two groupings bear very unique characteristics. We must remember, they are seen at different stages of growth (in time) despite being one developing spiritual organism. They are often portrayed in a progressive growth, in the same way as the development occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly. They are the same developing entity - only taking on a changing progressive appearance. They are described in Scripture as the initial foundation which the building is built upon, or the root of a plant that the branches finally appear.

It is the expressed unity of the Old and New Testament saints that we must first consider. This reading confirms that Christ has supernaturally reconciled those that “are called uncircumcision” (namely the Gentiles) with those who are “called the circumcision” (namely the Jews) “unto God in one body by the cross.” Plainly there is only “one (mystical) body” of Christ containing those of faith, those that have been spiritually purchased through the Cross. Christ has “made both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,” through His substitutionary atonement. Such a transaction was required to free every repentant sinner belonging to Adam’s race from the awful bondage and consequences of sin. It also sealed the eternal union of the whole “household of God” (Old and New Testament), enabling Christ “to make in himself of twain one new man.” The oneness of the people of God throughout time could not be clearer.

1 Corinthians 15:12 says,“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." All men are naturally born "in Adam" and are thus destined for a Christless hell. Those that are born of God are found "in Christ" and are therefore destined to be with Him for all eternity.




Does sin continue or terminate at the Second Advent?

Paul

One of the strangest enigmas imaginable is the phenomenon of contradiction (disagreement). In your zeal to contradict me you painstakingly confirmed what I had said in my post. You said I am in error because I highlighted “for the sake of His body, which is the church” and “The mystery of which was hidden for ages and generations from angels and men], but is now revealed to His holy people (the saints)” and yet you very boldly and vociferously confirmed that the church (“which is Christ in you, The hope of glory”) (Colossians 1:25-27) was the mystery among the Gentiles. What else is “which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” other that the body of Christ, the union of Jew and Gentile in Christ by means of His death and resurrection? The mystery of the church does not mean that God’s plan to include Gentiles in His salvation was unknown in the Old Testament. Apart from the several places in the Old Testament (among them Amos 9:11, 12) which proves that God intended from the very beginning to include the Gentiles in His plan of salvation, he also included several Gentile women in Christ’s genealogy. The mystery therefore was not that the gentiles would be saved but how they could be made “fellow-heirs” in Christ (Ephesians 3: 6).

I would venture to remind you that Jesus once said “But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” The essence of the church (body of Christ) is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” This could never have been accomplished without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Who in turn could never have been poured out on the Day of Pentecost (birth of the church) if Christ did not ascend into heaven.

Apparently you do not believe Jesus Christ’s words in Matthew 16: 16-18:

16 Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter [Greek, Petros--a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra—a huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the infernal region) shall not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].”
The word for build is “oikodomeo { oy-kod-om-eh’-o} also oikodomos { oy-kod-om’-os }” and means “to build up from the foundation,” or to “found” or to “establish.” The same word is used in Acts 4: 11 “This [Jesus] is the Stone which was despised and rejected by you, the builders, but which has become the Head of the corner [the Cornerstone]. Jesus Who is the foundation of the church (1 Corinthians 3:10-12) was laid at His death and resurrection.

Was sin terminated at His First Advent? The Presterist views the things mentioned in Daniel 9: 26, 27 as already having been fulfilled at His First Advent. Impossible!

Tom

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 12:10 PM
[quote=RickA]Moonglow wrote:


It's kind of sad to see that people still get mixed up with scripture and mislead others. Even the NIV translation shows the Anitichrist will set up the abomination in the Temple. Jesus would never do such a thing.


Its called replacement theology Rick

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 12:53 PM
Answer: Replacement Theology basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. There are really only two views, either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology), or the Church is totally different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel, the covenants, promises and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 12:58 PM
There is a powerful movement afoot called Replacement Theology
which states that the church is Israel and the promises given to
Israel were primarily for the church. This movement is
incurring the wrath of God, as it increasingly condemns the
nation of Israel as illegitimate, which is natural for folks who
believe the church has replaced Israel. Even among those who
still hold to Israel to one degree or another, there seems to be
a propensity for yanking Old Testament promises out of the Bible
-- and, I might add, out of context -- and indiscriminately
applying them to modern church situations. The tendency is to
select those promises which fit church theology (like healing,
prosperity, victory) and ignore those which do not (like
punishment for rebellion, keeping of feasts, sacrifices). To
set the record straight: the church did not yet exist when
those promises were given, and they were not given to Israel as
a "type" of the church until the church should inherit them.
The Old Testament promises were given to Israel, and they apply
to Israel.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:10 PM
In the first century AD, the church was well connected to its Jewish roots, and Jesus did not intend for it to be any other way. After all, Jesus is Jewish and the basis of His teaching is consistent with the Hebrew Scriptures. In Matthew 5:17-18 He states: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Before the First Jewish Revolt in AD 66, Christianity was basically a sect of Judaism, as were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes.
Separation between Judaism and Christianity began as a result of religious and social differences. According to David Rausch in his book, A Legacy of Hatred, there were several contributing factors: 1) the Roman intrusion into Judea, and the widespread acceptance of Christianity by the Gentiles, complicated the history of Jewish Christianity; 2) the Roman wars against the Jews not only destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem, but also resulted in Jerusalem’s relinquishing her position as a centre of Christian faith in the Roman world; and, 3) the rapid acceptance of Christianity among the Gentiles led to an early conflict between the Church and Synagogue. Paul’s missionary journeys brought the Christian faith to the Gentile world, and as their numbers grew, so did their influence, which ultimately disconnected Christianity from its Jewish roots. Many Gentile Christians interpreted the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem as a sign that God had abandoned Judaism, and that He had provided the Gentiles freedom to develop their own Christian theology in a setting free from Jerusalem’s influence. Could it be He was showing us that Temple worship was no longer necessary as His Holy Spirit now resides in us (I Cor. 6:19), not in the Holy of Holies? After the Second Jewish Revolt (AD 133-135) put down by the Roman Emperor Hadrian, theological and political power moved from Jewish Christian leaders to centres of Gentile Christian leadership such as Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch. It is important to understand this change, because it influenced the early Church Fathers to make anti-Jewish statements as Christianity began to disconnect itself from its Jewish roots. As the Church spread far and wide within the Roman Empire, and its membership grew increasingly non-Jewish, Greek and Roman thought began to creep in and completely change the orientation of Biblical interpretation through a Greek mindset, rather than a Jewish or Hebraic mindset. This would later result in many heresies, some of which the Church is still practicing today.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:32 PM
This information casts some serious doubts on several things believed and taught by the Church, Including whether the New Testament was really written in Greek to begin with, the idea that Israel has been replaced and several other things we accept as truth, but is it?????

Junietta
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:36 PM
I AM NOT A PRETERIST
I do believe what the Bible says about the 144,000 children of Israel. They were God's precious FIRSTFRUITS in the early church. Rev. 14:1-4 That does not make me a preterist.

I am not Pre-millennial I am not Post or Amillennial. There is no name for my position.

The pivotal point in the Kingdom of Christ is not being recognized for what it is

. Jesus is King now and has been for two thousand years. Very soon now He is going to shake heaven and earth to remove the works of the devil, so the Kingdom will be cleansed. Hebrews 12:25-29 That is the day of the Lord, day of wrath, vengeance. After that we will have a thousand years of freedom from the deceptions of the devil.

The coming of the Lord in the clouds will be the end of this present world. We will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:43 PM
It does make you incorrect Junietta, The 144000 are yet future,not in the past

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:48 PM
Is knowing that the old testament was NOT written in Greek, when you figure that out you will begin to get it right. Til then you are posting what you have been taught. Do either of you really believe the old was written in Greek?? The entire Bible was written by Israelis, In Hebrew. Even Paul, who many say wasnt Hebrew is totally wrong. He was Jewish. So in summation, the idea that "church" was ever used in the old testament is a farce. Surely both of you know better unless you do believe Hebrew was not the language in olden times of the Tribes of Israel. Even in Jesus' time it wasnt Greek they spoke, it was either Hebrew or Aramaic, Makes little sense to think they spoke Greek. It would make more sense to say they spoke Latin


Here is the real Paul, and he is definately Jewish. "The Pharisee Saul of Tarsus" How many Gentiles have you ever heard of that was a Pharisee??? None.

Did Christ and the Apostles preach from the Greek OT or not (yes or no)?

If the answer is yes then it is shows why the word ecclessia was used and what it means. It has always referred to the congregation of God in both Testaments.

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:50 PM
Taught from the Hebrew old testament. There was no new testament in the day of Jesus

And the old was definately NOT Greek

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 01:59 PM
Taught from the Hebrew old testament. There was no new testament in the day of Jesus

And the old was definately NOT Greek

Evidently you are unaware of a few facts. Please some proof.

http://www.geocities.com/r_grant_jones/Rick/Septuagint/splist1.htm

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:06 PM
Me that is unaware of facts

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:10 PM
Jesus made the new covenant. His death and resurrection were the starting points of that new covenant. Jesus is the new covenant, new high priest, new sacrifice for our sins.

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:13 PM
quote: RickA


It's kind of sad to see that people still get mixed up with scripture and mislead others. Even the NIV translation shows the Anitichrist will set up the abomination in the Temple. Jesus would never do such a thing.



GW butler: Its called replacement theology Rick

Nope...that is not what I am talking about.


Gw butler There is a powerful movement afoot called Replacement Theology
which states that the church is Israel and the promises given to
Israel were primarily for the church. This movement is
incurring the wrath of God, as it increasingly condemns the
nation of Israel as illegitimate, which is natural for folks who
believe the church has replaced Israel. Even among those who
still hold to Israel to one degree or another, there seems to be
a propensity for yanking Old Testament promises out of the Bible
-- and, I might add, out of context -- and indiscriminately
applying them to modern church situations. The tendency is to
select those promises which fit church theology (like healing,
prosperity, victory) and ignore those which do not (like
punishment for rebellion, keeping of feasts, sacrifices). To
set the record straight: the church did not yet exist when
those promises were given, and they were not given to Israel as
a "type" of the church until the church should inherit them.
The Old Testament promises were given to Israel, and they apply
to Israel.

No...what I am talking about is that MOST of God's promises to Israel already happened in the past....how is the replacement theory?


Gw butler For those who are not familiar with the term “Replacement Theology,” it is the heretical teaching that God, Who cannot lie and Who never changes, has arbitrarily cancelled the “everlasting covenants” that He made with Avraham, Yitzhak, and Ya`akov, and with “their descendants forever,” and has transferred those promises to the Gentile “church.” This is a lie straight from the pit of Hell that is particularly detestable to all Believers in Israel’s Messiah because it makes God a liar, and makes the Bible just another book of legends and fables.

Pretty strong words there...I don't know enough about this replacement idea to know if its heretical or not...I just suggest FIRST you understand what we are talking about before accusing us of it ....

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:16 PM
But all the other covenants will be honored, and the tribes of Israel are still and will always be Gods people, we are grafted into them. The 144,000 that June talks about are future and have not occured yet

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:18 PM
Evidently you are unaware of a few facts. Please some proof.

http://www.geocities.com/r_grant_jones/Rick/Septuagint/splist1.htm

Paul


Yes the NT is FULL of quotes from scriptures in the OT...its pretty neat I think.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:19 PM
[Pretty strong words there...I don't know enough about this replacement idea to know if its heretical or not...I just suggest FIRST you understand what we are talking about before accusing us of it ....]


Quite well moonglow, the errors come from what has been obstructed, or added to from the view the Church has, None of these errors come from the Bible. I dont condemn you for believing what you do as you are sincere about it, but it isnt Biblical and wont pass the test.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:21 PM
What you just posted moonglow, ALL of the new came from the old. Jesus quoted from the old all the time as did all the other Apostiles. The Messiahship of Jesus is from the old as well. In fact the entire Bible points directly to the Messiah, who is Jesus, from Beresheet to Revelation.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:29 PM
But, it is not Israel any longer, it is the one new man Paul talks about in Ephesians. That is what God is dealing with now. Jewish believers are made apart of that one new man as they accept the salvation given through Jesus Christ.


But all the other covenants will be honored, and the tribes of Israel are still and will always be Gods people, we are grafted into them. The 144,000 that June talks about are future and have not occured yet

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:34 PM
This I totally agree with, but he will also deal with Israel after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and God will yet again choose Israel. We are grafted in, and Israel is the root of our faith. The Bible says this is so if you forget what is commonly taught today and remember that Israel is, and always will be Gods special people.

Junietta
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:36 PM
God is going to use the people of Israel to glorify his Name

Ezekiel 36:22-24
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
KJV

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:40 PM
This I totally agree with, but he will also deal with Israel after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and God will yet again choose Israel. We are grafted in, and Israel is the root of our faith. The Bible says this is so if you forget what is commonly taught today and remember that Israel is, and always will be Gods special people.

Jesus Christ is the root of our faith. He is the one who made the new man out of two people. The new covenant of His blood is the covenant that has central place. It is that by which all will be judged. His name is the only one by which all men will be judged.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:41 PM
In order for God to be true and unchangable, he must honor all the covenants made to those like Abraham, Noah, Issac, David and all the other sages of Israel. If he dosent we are in trouble because he also wouldnt have to honor the one we have. I believe God is incapable of lieing, to us, or Israel.

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:43 PM
What you just posted moonglow, ALL of the new came from the old. Jesus quoted from the old all the time as did all the other Apostiles. The Messiahship of Jesus is from the old as well. In fact the entire Bible points directly to the Messiah, who is Jesus, from Beresheet to Revelation.

I agree that the Old Testament points to Jesus ....and of course Jesus is in the New Testament..but they aren't idential...otherwise there would be no need to have the New Testament if its a repeat word for word of the Old....but consider this....WHY is part of the bible called the "OLD" testament and the other half called the "NEW Testament?

Junietta
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:47 PM
GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH HIS PLAN TO USE THE PEOPLE OF iSRAEL

JERUSALEM WILL BE THE CHRISTIAN CAPITOL OF THE WORLD

THE JEWS WILL BE THE GREATEST OF ALL EVANGELISTS

JUST WATCH AND SEE

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:50 PM
wpm, you have done an excellent job on this thread...I admire your work on here greatly. :) I wish I was smart enough to explain it all so well...maybe one day I can. Meanwhile I am learning a great deal just from reading your post. thanks and keep up the good work.


I appreciate your comments. Thanks. I am gleaning from your posts. Keep it coming.

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:50 PM
You can look to the Church, Catholic especially, for this division. In Hebrew there are no numbered scriptures, and even the Books are different in order. All this began in the third century at the councel in that era. Constantine I believe was the major culprit then. The new testament is a verification of the old, and most of the quotes came from the old. The new, and the old were written by sages, who got the message from the word, who is Jesus/Messiah/Yeshua. In other words, Jesus was the God of the old as well as the new and that info really gets people going. heh

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:52 PM
Yes the NT is FULL of quotes from scriptures in the OT...its pretty neat I think.

Please note, they are exact quotes from Greek LXX Septuagint.

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:53 PM
wpm, you have been misled just like most of the church on this, but you are sincere about it

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:54 PM
GW

What does these Replacement Theologians you speak of think we have replaced?

(1) Natural Israel? No, natural Israel is still natural Israel. We are still Gentiles. It would be a total absurdity for the believing Church to be grafted into a carnal Christ-rejecting physical nation. The New Testament Church has not replaced physical Israel which is represented in Scripture by the fig tree. Any way, physical birth never warranted salvation in any age, so we (the true NT Church) have NOT replaced a Christ-rejecting physical seed. Surely, every sane theologian would acknowledge that the New Testament Church has in no way been “grafted into” natural Israel; this would indeed be replacement theology!!!

(2) Spiritual Israel? No, we joined them in the lineage of Abraham "by faith." We have been grafted as branches into the good olive tree – the redeemed Church throughout time. We have not replaced them; we have become part of them. The Church is the historic continuation of spiritual Israel, to the exclusion of any nationality Jew or Gentile in any age that rejects God's only provision for sin - the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Jews that reject Christ today are not God's chosen people; the Jews today that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour are God's chosen people. Along the Gentile Christians everyone that comes onto Christ in repentance belongs onto Christ. Who is excluded from coming to Christ? Those that reject salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Paul

Junietta
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:55 PM
Ezek 39:21-22
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
KJV

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:56 PM
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.


And this is also where the idea that the new is Greek, done by the same exact scholars.


Kind of messes up the view some dont it? This history about the"so called" greek new testament came from the same source. Hebrew was transliterated into Greek, not the other way round as we are taught.

Junietta
Apr 23rd 2006, 02:59 PM
FROM THAT DAY AND FORWARD

THAT DAY HAS NOT HAPPENED YET

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:01 PM
This I totally agree with, but he will also deal with Israel after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and God will yet again choose Israel. We are grafted in, and Israel is the root of our faith. The Bible says this is so if you forget what is commonly taught today and remember that Israel is, and always will be Gods special people.

No, He is dealing with Jews and Gentiles now. Stop ignoring the Jews and placing a blockage before Israelites coming to Christ now. Whether you mean to do it or not, you are rendering the Jews as second-class earthlings, unworthy of salvation now.

God does not see race, colour or creed like you, He sees sinner that need salvation and therefore Christ. Christ is the only way. Natural birthright alone (whether Jew or Gentile) means nothing. We are not saved by race, but grace.

Paul

Junietta
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:02 PM
Ezek 39:21-22
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:03 PM
If you read chapter three of Galatians, Paul points out that the promise to Abrham was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and that this promise is appropriated by faith. The Law was given simply to bind all up under sin and make the promise sure to those who take it by faith. Chapter 3 is a crucial answer to all of this, and Paul sums it up by saying:

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.


Again, Paul shows how there is only the 'one new man' that he describes in Ephesians 2.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:04 PM
Rendering the Jews as First class citizens of the reign of the Messiah, who will all be saved as it is written.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:05 PM
No, He is dealing with Jews and Gentiles now. Stop ignoring the Jews and placing a blockage before Israelites coming to Christ now. Whether you mean to do it or not, you are rendering the Jews as second-class earthlings, unworthy of salvation now.

God does not see race, colour or creed like you, He sees sinner that need salvation and therefore Christ. Christ is the only way. Natural birthright alone (whether Jew or Gentile) means nothing. We are not saved by race, but grace.

Paul

Amen. As Paul told the Galatians:

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:06 PM
Answer: Replacement Theology basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. There are really only two views, either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology), or the Church is totally different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel, the covenants, promises and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.



Is this your own writing?

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:07 PM
We,ll see, Biblically I am correct, but I am willing to wait and see if you are.

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:07 PM
Rendering the Jews as First class citizens of the reign of the Messiah, who will all be saved as it is written.

But there is only one first class citizen in heaven:

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:09 PM
Of many theologians. Quite a number in fact. I just posted it for your edification. Hard to take isnt it? But true.

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:09 PM
Rendering the Jews as First class citizens of the reign of the Messiah, who will all be saved as it is written.

You are fighting with Scripture. We need to rip out a significant part of the NT for your theology to fit.

God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:29, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). The sinner (of all nationalities) enters exclusively into communion with God through regeneration and the new birth experience.

Scripture continually tells us that there are only two types of people in this life – saved and lost, the righteous and the wicked; it doesn’t remotely outline three peoples as many futurists try to do. In fact, Paul the Apostle destroys that notion by revealing that both of these two diverse groups include Jew and Gentile alike. Therefore, biblically, everyman is either Christ’s or Satan’s in this life – no convenient man-made in-between.

Paul explains of the wicked,“Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile” (Romans 2:9).

Please note this GW!!!

And of the righteous,“glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also of the Gentile” (Romans 2:10).

Paul’s clear words in this narrative firmly nail the dispensational notion that there are three distinct peoples in this life, namely – saved, lost and natural Jews. They argue, without any scriptural support, that of these three, two are God’s – the Church and the Jews, and one is the devil’s – the wicked. However, Paul concludes, “For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law (Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (Jews) shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:11-12).

Peter outlines the same truth in Acts 10:34-36, when he witnessed with his own eyes the Gentiles receiving the Gospel of Christ, saying,“I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).” brethrenWhat he succinctly affirmed was: “God is no respecter of persons.” This is the constant theme of the New Testament. The Gospel is no longer restricted to the physical race of Israel but it has been opened up to all nations. In fact, them that fear him and walk righteously “in every nation” are now “accepted with him.” He is assuredly “Lord of all.”

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:12 PM
Are really hard to take for Christians, but it is in your Bible, and God does not lie. It messes up the traditional view real bad.



11:11 (http://bibleforums.org/) I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.cb(11,12); 11:12 (http://bibleforums.org/) Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?cb(11,13); 11:13 (http://bibleforums.org/) For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an emissary to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;cb(11,14); 11:14 (http://bibleforums.org/) if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh, and may save some of them.cb(11,15); 11:15 (http://bibleforums.org/) For if the rejection of them is the reconciling of the world, what would their acceptance be, but life from the dead?cb(11,16); 11:16 (http://bibleforums.org/) If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches.cb(11,17); 11:17 (http://bibleforums.org/) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree;cb(11,18); 11:18 (http://bibleforums.org/) don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you.cb(11,19); 11:19 (http://bibleforums.org/) You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.”cb(11,20); 11:20 (http://bibleforums.org/) True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear;cb(11,21); 11:21 (http://bibleforums.org/) for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.cb(11,22); 11:22 (http://bibleforums.org/) See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.cb(11,23); 11:23 (http://bibleforums.org/) They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.cb(11,24); 11:24 (http://bibleforums.org/) For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?cb(11,25); 11:25 (http://bibleforums.org/) For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, (http://ebible.org/bible/hnv/Romans.htm#N54) of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,cb(11,26); 11:26 (http://bibleforums.org/) and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written,

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:13 PM
Of many theologians. Quite a number in fact. I just posted it for your edification. Hard to take isnt it? But true.

If you are quoting from another website or writing, board rules ask that you give the proper references please..................and acknowledge the quote as such.....

ScottJohnson
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:15 PM
Moonglow wrote:


It's kind of sad to see that people still get mixed up with scripture and mislead others. Even the NIV translation shows the Anitichrist will set up the abomination in the Temple. Jesus would never do such a thing.

NIV
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [i] In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

regarding the 70 weeks, If people would look at the news they would know that a "Confirmed Covenant with Many" is already in the works for seven years and we are fast approaching the last week. By the time people that think the "He" was Jesus in Dan 9:27 and they realize they were wrong, we will be standing right at the door of the last 7 years.
What's really sad is how futurist ignore the demonstration of OT prophecy fulfillment in the both OT and NT as in the following posts.......
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=789666&postcount=3
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=789666&postcount=18 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=789924&postcount=18)
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=789666&postcount=39 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=790306&postcount=39)
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=789666&postcount=40 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=790308&postcount=40)
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=789666&postcount=41 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=790312&postcount=41)
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=789666&postcount=42 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=790312&postcount=42)
....and choose to verify and interpret prophecy with the morning newspaper.

That is truly sad.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:20 PM
But in future I will post the source, that is if I am allowed to remain after the many disagreements people have with me and the real truth. Heh. Believe it or not I love Gods people but I know many have and are deluded, believing doctrine that isnt Biblical

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:21 PM
Romans 11:11-26, as you quote, simply point out that as the individual jews accept Christ, they will be grafted back into the tree. If you read verses 1-10, Paul points out that this is a remnant that will be saved, and not every single Jew that ever lived. This remnant will be the saved state; and if you read the whole chapter and Ephesians 2, and Galatians three, this will also include the gentiles.

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3"Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."

4But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."

5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8just as it is written,
"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

9And David says,
"LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10"LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."

slightlypuzzled
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:23 PM
But in future I will post the source, that is if I am allowed to remain after the many disagreements people have with me and the real truth. Heh. Believe it or not I love Gods people but I know many have and are deluded, believing doctrine that isnt Biblical

Thank you.

And I believe both sides could say that about the other......:D

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:26 PM
What do you do with the last verse? 11:26 is pretty plain


Do we just ignore it? Throw it out the window? On this even I am puzzeled as to why this verse is always missed, or ignored.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 03:52 PM
Genesis 13:14-15 "YHVH said to Abraham after Lot had parted company with him: 'Look all around from where you are toward the north and the south, toward the east and the west. All the land within sight I will give to you and your descendants forever.'" Abraham was in the vicinity of the Dead Sea in Israel at the time, from where he went to Hebron.
Genesis 15:18 "That day YHVH made a Covenant with Abraham in these terms: 'To your descendants I give this Land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the Great River, the river Euphrates.'"
Genesis 17:5-8 Another Divine Promise to Abraham: "... I make you father of a multitude of nations ... I will establish My Covenant between Myself and you, and your descendants after you, generation after generation; a Covenant in perpetuity to be your God and the God of your descendants after you ... I will give to you and to your descendants after you the Land you are living in, the whole land of Canaan, to own in perpetuity, and I will be your everlasting God."
Psalms 105:8-11 "Remember His Covenant forever, His Word of Command for a thousand generations, the Pact He made with Abraham, His Oath to Isaac. He established it as a Statute for Jacob, an everlasting Covenant for Israel. I give you a Land He said: Canaan, your allotted heritage


This also seems to be quite plain

ScottJohnson
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:08 PM
What do you do with the last verse? 11:26 is pretty plain


Do we just ignore it? Throw it out the window? On this even I am puzzeled as to why this verse is always missed, or ignored.
I don't think that it's as plain as you think it is.

"Jew" was a name tagged on to the Hebrew people by the Babylonians after the exile of the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Obviously it was meant to identify the peopls of either "Judah" or "Judea". (Judea was the name given to the land mass we know today as Palestine or Israel by their liberators, the Medo-Persians)

Israel was the name given to Jacob after a night of wrestling with a spiritual entity (Gen 32:28). Hitchcock's Bible Dictionary defines the term "Israel" simply "who prevails with God".

Easton's Bible Dictionary says "Israel The name conferred on Jacob after the great prayer-struggle at Peniel, because “as a prince he had power with God and prevailed.”

It's all Israel that will be saved not all Jews. All through out the Book of Romans, Paul makes a distinction between the Jews and Israel. You see A-millers and preterist don't believe that we have replaced Israel but rather have been joined together with them in the promises that were all fulfilled in Christ. To insinuate that we have replaced Israel is using a derogatory means of mental manipulation to keep people from excepting what we believe, since the tag "replacement theology" implies anti-semitism.

Rom 11:26
(26) And so all Israel will get salvation: as it is said in the holy Writings, There will come out of Zion the One who makes free; by him wrongdoing will be taken away from Jacob:

In this passage, Paul says, "all Israel will be saved" not all Jews. He also says that some of the natural branches have been broken off while other, wild branches are grafted in. God has included gentiles in the promises that were made to the Hebrew patriarchs.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:10 PM
The scripture is plain as day, It says what it says, so how does one avoid this text? BTW, it is also said in the old. Do we only use the texts we agree with? Or do we include all of them? If we include all of them the answer is obvious


BTW, "Israel" isnt just the Jews, it includes all the twelve tribes, and you are a saint if you belong to God in the present dispensation. Actually there are thirteen tribes, 12 full tribes and two half tribes.

Junietta
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:20 PM
Didn't the two half tribes replace Dan's tribe?

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:34 PM
I have no idea what Dan did though to lose his part in the Kingdom. Perhaps he will be saved I just dont know about his destiny

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:39 PM
Whether it is so I cant verify


It is suggested that Dan is absent from the present list because the Anti-Messiah is to come from this tribe. This idea can be found in the second-century church father Irenaeus; in Jewish tradition it can be traced back to the Pseudepigraphic Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, written around 100 B.C.E., where Dan is told:

"In the last days you will depart from the Lord....For I have read in the book of Enoch the righteous that your princeis Satan." (Testament of Dan 5:4-7).

The Professor
Apr 23rd 2006, 04:55 PM
Time is consecutive......the 70th week immediately follows the 69th.


24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.



26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Strongs -


to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume; specifically to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces)




27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the cnsummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:24-27





Strongs -

(in the sense of cutting); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh)




So Messiah makes the covenant and confirms it with many for the last "week".





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~


I'm going to type 9:27 bolding words that are from the Hebrew.




27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27



Look up the pronoun "he" and see it's many variations.

ScottJohnson
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:19 PM
Well Biblically
The scripture is plain as day, It says what it says, so how does one avoid this text? BTW, it is also said in the old. Do we only use the texts we agree with? Or do we include all of them? If we include all of them the answer is obvious

"Do we only use texts we agree with?"

You tell me....... futurist theology must ignore every single passage below in order to sustain the idea that God has a two different plans one for the Jews and one for the gentile. All this is based on OT writings and a misinterpretation of the Book of Revelation. If people are to come to Christ after a so called "rapture" then it can no longer be by faith since a disappearance of millions of people would offer conclusive evidence. This means that there must be another means of salvation other than faith in Christ for those that are left behind. This concept stand in stark contrast to what the New Testament teaches us. This is why futurist theology is erroneous, because it fails to accept the fulfillment of all things in Christ Jesus.


Rom 1:16
(16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;

Rom 2:9-11
(9) trouble and pain on every soul of man that works out evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek.
(10) But glory and honor and peace will be to everyone working out good, both to the Jew first, and to the Greek.
(11) For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rom 3:29
(29) Or is He the God of Jews only, and not also of the nations? Yes, of the nations also,


Rom 10:11-13
(11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame." Isa. 28:16
(12) For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich toward all the ones calling on Him.
(13) For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:32

Mat 11:20-24
(20) Then He began to reproach the cities in which most of His powerful acts had occurred, for they did not repent.
(21) Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the powerful acts which have taken place in you had happened in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
(22) But I say to you, It shall be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon in Judgment Day than for you.
(23) And you, Capernaum, who "have been exalted to the heaven, you will be thrown down to Hades." For if the powerful acts happening in you had taken place in Sodom, it would remain until today. Isa. 14:13, 15
(24) But I say to you, It will be more bearable for the land of Sodom in Judgment Day than for you.

Luk 2:30-32
(30) because my eyes saw Your Salvation,
(31) which You prepared before the face of all the peoples;
(32) a Light for revelation to the nations, and the Glory of Your people Israel.

Act 11:18
(18) And hearing these things, they kept silent and glorified God, saying, Then God also has granted to the nations repentance unto life.

Act 13:26
(26) Men, brothers, sons of the race of Abraham, and the ones among you fearing God, to you the Word of this salvation was sent.

Gal 2:15-16
(15) We, Jews by nature, and not sinners of the nations,
(16) knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law). Psa. 123:2

Gal 3:28
(28) There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is no slave nor freeman, there is no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:11-17
(11) Because of this, remember that you, the nations, were then in the flesh (those having been called Uncircumcision by those having been called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands)
(12) that at that time you were without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
(13) But now, in Christ Jesus you who then were afar off, came to be near by the blood of Christ.
(14) For He is our peace, He making us both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition,
(15) in His flesh causing to cease the enmity, the Law of the commandments in decrees, that He might in Himself create the two into one new man, making peace,
(16) and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, slaying the enmity in Himself.
(17) And coming, He proclaimed "peace to you, the ones afar off, and to the ones near." Isa. 57:19

Col 3:10-11
(10) and having put on the new, having been renewed in full knowledge according to the image of the One creating him,
(11) where there is no Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave or freeman, but Christ is all things and in all.

1Pe 4:17
(17) Because the time has come to begin the judgment from the house of God; and if firstly from us, what will be the end of the ones disobeying the gospel of God?


BTW, "Israel" isnt just the Jews, it includes all the twelve tribes, and you are a saint if you belong to God in the present dispensation. Actually there are thirteen tribes, 12 full tribes and two half tribes.

Rom 9:6-8
(6) Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel,
(7) nor because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you." Gen. 21:12
(8) That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed.

Verse 7; "In Isaac a Seed shal be called to you." means Christ. That means that those that are in Christ Jesus are Israel, regardless of ethnicity.


Ephraim and Mannesah were both sons of Joseph.

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:22 PM
Answer: Replacement Theology basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. There are really only two views, either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology), or the Church is totally different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel, the covenants, promises and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.



Sadly anti-Semitism is the fastest growing evils of our world today and it is even more heartbreaking to see how many gentile Christians believe the lie that God has taken away the Kingdom from them and given it to the church. Replacement theology — one of the more subtle forms of anti-Semitism and the concept that the church has replaced Israel and that all her spiritual gifts, benefits and privileges have been transferred to the “New Israel” (church) because the nation of Israel had irrevocably lost all by virtue of her rebellion and rejection of Christ — has been going around for many centuries. The most common view amongst Catholics and the majority of Protestants is that God has completely rescinded His covenants with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob relating specifically to the nation of Israel and has taken His promised Kingdom away from her to give it to the church. St. Augustine’s work, “The City of God,” promoting the opinion that the Millennium Kingdom was inaugurated on earth when the church was instituted in the New Testament after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ and the subsequent outpouring of His Holy Spirit, contributed a great deal to instill Replacement Theology in the minds of gentile Christians to this very day.

St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans, the longest he wrote, is a monumental and very compassionate critique on the gentile Christians’ increasing animosity toward the Jewish Christians in Rome. Anti-Semitism and “Replacement Theology” began to rear its ugly head when the Emperor Claudius decreed that all the Jews be banished from Rome (Acts 18: 2). This atrocious step prompted the Gentile Christians to reach the conclusion that God had turned His back on Israel never to restore them as a nation and to their original relationship with Him as He had done so many times in the past. When Emperor Nero overturned Claudius’ decree and invited the Jews back to Rome because of the benefits the city could reap from their brilliant economic expertise, the Gentile Christians refused to allow them back in their fellowship. Sadly, even to this day Jewish Christians stand aloof of Gentile Christians because of their erroneous interpretation of God’s promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Paul’s main purpose was to nip the boastful and inordinate pride of the Gentile Christians in the bud and to vindicate God’s eternal promises to His peculiar people with regard to their inheritance of His Millennial Kingdom on earth. The allegorical or spiritualized method of the a-millennial interpretation of the 1000 years of peace on earth was the natural outflow of replacement theology because it was the only way of incorporating a 1000 years into a much longer period (more than 2000 years) since the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

We must always bear in mind that a promise of God is a prophecy fulfilled the moment it is given even though it may take thousands of years before it is actually fulfilled. Had this not been true Almighty God would have been guilty of His own indictment of false prophets in Deuteronomy 18: 22, “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” Numbers 23 : 19 teaches very clearly that God is not a man that He should lie and He always brings to fruition His promises. Therefore, we can be sure that God will fulfill all His promises with regard to His people. How is He going to do it? Although it is not and never will be God’s will that the Gentile nations hate and treat the Jews with contempt, (believe it or not, some Gentile Christians believe the very opposite), He is going to use the world-wide anti-Semitism and hatred of the Jews to draw the nations to the valley of Jehosaphat where He is going to judge them with His sword of righteousness. Listen to what he says in Isaiah 45:

”For I, the Lord your God, hold your right hand; I, Who say to you, Fear not, I will help you! Fear not, you worm of Jacob, you men of Israel! I will help you, says the Lord; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. Behold, I will make you to be a new, sharp, threshing instrument having teeth; you shall thresh the mountains and beat them small, and shall make the hills as chaff. You shall winnow them and the wind shall carry them away, and the tempest or whirlwind shall scatter them. And you shall rejoice in the Lord, you shall glory in the Holy One of Israel.”

God commands us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122: 6) So let’s do it with compassion and great passion. Jesus wept over Jerusalem. What do we do?

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:29 PM
"Do we only use texts we agree with?"

You tell me....... futurist theology must ignore every single passage below in order to sustain the idea that God has a two different plans one for the Jews and one for the gentile. All this is based on OT writings and a misinterpretation of the Book of Revelation. If people are to come to Christ after a so called "rapture" then it can no longer be by faith since a disappearance of millions of people would offer conclusive evidence. This means that there must be another means of salvation other than faith in Christ for those that are left behind. This concept stand in stark contrast to what the New Testament teaches us. This is why futurist theology is erroneous, because it fails to accept the fulfillment of all things in Christ Jesus.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that there must be another means of salvation other than faith in Christ for those who are left behind after the Rapture? Surely you must have read Revelation 7:14 recently.

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:36 PM
Time is consecutive......the 70th week immediately follows the 69th.


24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.



26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Strongs -


to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume; specifically to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces)




27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the cnsummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:24-27





Strongs -

(in the sense of cutting); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh)




So Messiah makes the covenant and confirms it with many for the last "week".





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~


I'm going to type 9:27 bolding words that are from the Hebrew.




27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27



Look up the pronoun "he" and see it's many variations.


Since when is Jesus' covenant with the Jews only temporal? (one week = seven years). What dit He mean when He said:

The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you. (Judges 2:1)
Surely the God who created everything, including the languages of the nations, knows perfectly well what "never" means. Or should we look for another interpratation which says that "never" is equal to 1 week (seven years)?

Tom

ScottJohnson
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:43 PM
How did you arrive at the conclusion that there must be another means of salvation other than faith in Christ for those who are left behind after the Rapture? Surely you must have read Revelation 7:14 recently.


Tom

Nope, it comes right out of the dispensational handbook. God has seperate plans for Jews and gentiles.

Just like I wrote it out in my previous post.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:44 PM
The Bible does not support many of their beliefs, yet it is rampant in the Church, Plus most get irate when advised that the Bible says something different than what they support. It mystifies me no end. Personally I have been kicked off several forums because of what I say. One in particular dosent even believe like the normal Christian does, omitting satan as real, calling him a myth, and even denying Jesus is who the Bible says he is, not here of course, but there is one floating around on the net. To be honest there are some really strange religions and beliefs out in the world. All calling themselves Christian, but denying their roots and what the future of Israel really is.

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:49 PM
That anyone that professes that the Church has replaced Israel is in replacement theology, but getting them to understand this basic fact is next to impossible

The Professor
Apr 23rd 2006, 05:57 PM
Since when is Jesus' covenant with the Jews only temporal? (one week = seven years). What dit He mean when He said:

Surely the God who created everything, including the languages of the nations, knows perfectly well what "never" means. Or should we look for another interpratation which says that "never" is equal to 1 week (seven years)?

Tom

Well, Christ confirms His covenant with many for one week - the passage never says he stops confirming His covenant.

And since He was cut off (that is, since He made covenant with us - Jew and Gentile alike) He has been confirming it. People are still getting saved.

Do a close word study - it is because of abominations committed by His people that desolation comes.

Study the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, etc. - and study the time period before these events.

The church celebrated unity and then went on a killing spree, all in the name of God of course, then she decided to apply torture as coercion to obedience, then she splintered into so many different denominations that they can barely be counted.

So this looks like abomination to me. Seems to have cause desolation.

But Christ is still confirming His covenant. Praise Him.

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 06:37 PM
The Bible does not support many of their beliefs, yet it is rampant in the Church, Plus most get irate when advised that the Bible says something different than what they support. It mystifies me no end. Personally I have been kicked off several forums because of what I say. One in particular dosent even believe like the normal Christian does, omitting satan as real, calling him a myth, and even denying Jesus is who the Bible says he is, not here of course, but there is one floating around on the net. To be honest there are some really strange religions and beliefs out in the world. All calling themselves Christian, but denying their roots and what the future of Israel really is.


If our view isn't supported by the bible then how come we are posting scriptures to prove it?


Gw butler That anyone that professes that the Church has replaced Israel is in replacement theology, but getting them to understand this basic fact is next to impossible

So people that believe in the replace idea don't know it? And that is how there got to be so many websites on it? Folks writing about this stuff but don't know what they are writing...even though they title it replacement theory?

GW you are being insulting now. If you disgree with this view that is fine! You are given that choice of course....

No one is making you read or post on this thread...there are plently of others threads on here that agree with your views that you would probably enjoy posting on...I don't understand why you are staying on here if just to argue with us anyway.

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 06:38 PM
Well, Christ confirms His covenant with many for one week - the passage never says he stops confirming His covenant.

And since He was cut off (that is, since He made covenant with us - Jew and Gentile alike) He has been confirming it. People are still getting saved.

Do a close word study - it is because of abominations committed by His people that desolation comes.

Study the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, etc. - and study the time period before these events.

The church celebrated unity and then went on a killing spree, all in the name of God of course, then she decided to apply torture as coercion to obedience, then she splintered into so many different denominations that they can barely be counted.

So this looks like abomination to me. Seems to have cause desolation.

But Christ is still confirming His covenant. Praise Him.


Professor, surely you ought to know what the difference is between one week (seven years) and everlasting? However, if a-millennialists can extend a 1000 years to more than 2000 years, I suppose they can extend one week (seven years) to everlasting.

The abomination of desolation has nothing to do with the abominable inquisitions of the Roman Church. Jesus referred to it in Matthew 24: 15 as something standing in the Holy Place of the rebuilt Tribulation temple.

Tom

The Professor
Apr 23rd 2006, 06:44 PM
Professor, surely you ought to know what the difference is between one week (seven years) and everlasting? However, if a-millennialists can extend a 1000 years to more than 2000 years, I suppose they can extend one week (seven years) to everlasting.

Tom

Tom, a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years. And then there is the little season.

One week is not being extended to everlasting, it is being placed into proper perspective.

It began at Christ being cut off and ends at the culmination of time. When He returns to reign forever.

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 07:40 PM
Nope, it comes right out of the dispensational handbook. God has seperate plans for Jews and gentiles.

Just like I wrote it out in my previous post.

Does separate plans mean that He has a separate agenda of salvation for the Jew and the gentile? No! not at all. God's plan for the Jews pertain mostly to their restoration to their own land at Jesus Christ's Second Advent. Tell me, the fact that the Jews' eyes are presently blinded to the Gospel for the sake of the Gentiles, is that not part of God's separate plan for the Jew and the gentile?

For if their rejection and exclusion from the benefiits of salvation were overruled for the reconciliation of the world to God, what will their acceptance and admission mean? It will be nothing short of life from the dead! (Romans 11:15)
Have you noticed the words ""exclusion from the benefits of salvation?"

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 07:56 PM
Tom, a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years. And then there is the little season.

One week is not being extended to everlasting, it is being placed into proper perspective.

It began at Christ being cut off and ends at the culmination of time. When He returns to reign forever.

For God and Him alone a thousand years is as a day. For you and I and the rest of humankind a day is a day and a thousand years are a thousand years. When God speaks to man, He addresses him in literal terms and even when He uses allegrories and symbols He uses them to illustrate literal things and events so that our finite minds can understand them.

Wouldn't you say that because the first 480 years of the 490 years God has decreed upon Daniel's people and their holy city was fulfilled literally that the last week (seven years) will also be fulfilled literally? Why would God allow only a portion of the 490 years to be fulfilled literally and then decide to extend a week (seven years) to an allegorical period of an indefinite time?

Tom

Gw butler
Apr 23rd 2006, 07:59 PM
No one is making you read or post on this thread...there are plently of others threads on here that agree with your views that you would probably enjoy posting on...I don't understand why you are staying on here if just to argue with us anyway.??????>>>>>>>>>>


Argueing with you moonglow, There really isnt an arguement. The Bible simply dosent support the idea that the Church replaced Israel, so the basic arguement is coming from your direction, and is a doctrine. If you wish me to leave or be gotten rid of you need to complain to a mod I expect. I have been kicked off other forums for this, so nothing surprises me anymore.

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 08:37 PM
No one is making you read or post on this thread...there are plently of others threads on here that agree with your views that you would probably enjoy posting on...I don't understand why you are staying on here if just to argue with us anyway.??????>>>>>>>>>>


Argueing with you moonglow, There really isnt an arguement. The Bible simply dosent support the idea that the Church replaced Israel, so the basic arguement is coming from your direction, and is a doctrine. If you wish me to leave or be gotten rid of you need to complain to a mod I expect. I have been kicked off other forums for this, so nothing surprises me anymore.


I will just put you on ingore because I am sick of the taunting and the replies that make little sense. You say that our views are not biblical yet we ARE posting scriptures to back them up...if they weren't bibical we couldn't do that, could we.

I don't care if you actually post scriptures to debate...but most of your replies are taunts and false accusations.

That is not even nice.

moonglow
Apr 23rd 2006, 08:39 PM
I see no anti-Semitism on here....if some of you do, then you are reading things that are not there. I am sure its against the board rules away...so if you see that happening on any post, be sure and report it.

The Professor
Apr 23rd 2006, 08:45 PM
For God and Him alone a thousand years is as a day. For you and I and the rest of humankind a day is a day and a thousand years are a thousand years. When God speaks to man, He addresses him in literal terms and even when He uses allegrories and symbols He uses them to illustrate literal things and events so that our finite minds can understand them.

Wouldn't you say that because the first 480 years of the 490 years God has decreed upon Daniel's people and their holy city was fulfilled literally that the last week (seven years) will also be fulfilled literally? Why would God allow only a portion of the 490 years to be fulfilled literally and then decide to extend a week (seven years) to an allegorical period of an indefinite time?

Tom


Why? Because we can't know the day or the hour Tom.

But we can know when it is near by the signs of the times.

The Professor
Apr 23rd 2006, 08:48 PM
No one is making you read or post on this thread...there are plently of others threads on here that agree with your views that you would probably enjoy posting on...I don't understand why you are staying on here if just to argue with us anyway.??????>>>>>>>>>>


Argueing with you moonglow, There really isnt an arguement. The Bible simply dosent support the idea that the Church replaced Israel, so the basic arguement is coming from your direction, and is a doctrine. If you wish me to leave or be gotten rid of you need to complain to a mod I expect. I have been kicked off other forums for this, so nothing surprises me anymore.


I am in agreement that the church did not replace Israel, but rather we gentiles are grafted into the natural branch.

Read Romans whoever thinks the church replaces Israel.......we are simply grafted in by Christ, a Jew.

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 08:49 PM
Why? Because we can't know the day or the hour Tom.

But we can know when it is near by the signs of the times.

Exactly! But we should take care how we read (understand) the signs and interpret one of the most important prophecies in Scripture - the 490 years that God decreed upon Daniel's people (the Jews) and their holy city.

Tom

The Professor
Apr 23rd 2006, 08:56 PM
Exactly! But we should take care how we read (understand) the signs and interpret one of the most important prophecies in Scripture - the 490 years that God decreed upon Daniel's people (the Jews) and their holy city.

Tom


Time doesn't have gaps Tom. One week follows another. The last 2000 years since the Messiah was cut off has existed. No gaps.

So we are in the final week because time is comsecutive.

Daniel is all about history, and history doesn't stop at Rome and it doesn't stop with the Diodochi, nor does history stop with 70 AD.

Tom Lessing
Apr 23rd 2006, 09:28 PM
Time doesn't have gaps Tom. One week follows another. The last 2000 years since the Messiah was cut off has existed. No gaps.

So we are in the final week because time is comsecutive.

Daniel is all about history, and history doesn't stop at Rome and it doesn't stop with the Diodochi, nor does history stop with 70 AD.

All the proponents of the Pre-, Mid-, and Postribulation Rapture agree that the 69 weeks in Daniel’s prophecy have already been fulfilled to the very letter. Therefore, there is no argument to be made against a literal fulfillment of the last week of the 70 week cycle. Pretribulaionists, as opposed to the Postribulationist’s view that the 7th week immediately followed the 69th, believe that there is a gap between the two periods and consequently that the 7th week still lies in the future. Has it already been fulfilled or is it a future event still to be fulfilled?

Is there enough evidence from Scripture that such a chronologically defined sequence of events such as the 70 weeks in Daniel could be interrupted indefinitely? If human judgment were to decide the question whether the final period of the cycle together with the divine promised blessings be forever abrogated and lost because the Jews “killed the Prince of Life” (Acts 3; 15), a ready answer may have been forthwith very easily. The question however remains – is there a precedent for this to be found in the mystical chronology of Israel’s history?

According to 1 Kings 6: 1 Solomon built the temple in the 480th year after Israel’s redemption from slavery in Egypt. Chronologists have rejected it as forgery and a blunder and even Scripture seems to dismiss it as an error. In his sermon at Pisidian Antioch (Acts 13: 18-21) Paul elaborated on the chronology of the history of his nation: 40 years in the wilderness; 450 years under the judges, and 40 years of the reign of Saul, making a total of 530 years. Add to this the 40 years of David’s reign and the first 3 years of Solomon’s then a total of 573 years is reached which leaves a gap of 93 years amiss in the chronology of these events. Can this apparent inconsistency be reconciled?

Following the history of Israel in the Book of Judges it becomes clear that their national existence as Jehovah’s peculiar people was in temporal abeyance for several periods. This happened in times of their punishment for their idolatry when they were “sold into the hands of their enemies.” They became slaves of the King of Mesopotamia for 8 years, to the King of Maob for 18 years, to the King of Canaan for 20 years, to the Midianites for 7 years, and finally to the Philistines for 40 years. The sum of 8 + 18 +20 + 7 + 40 = 93 which, when deducted from the 573, leaves a total of 480 years. Can there be any doubt that the 480 years of the Book of Kings from the Exodus to the temple is a mystic era formed by eliminating every period during which the people were cast off or kept on hold by God? If God had temporarily cast off His people in the past only to reinstate them again, could He not presently be doing the same thing? Indeed, Paul who wrote his epistle to the Romans primarily to correct the developing anti-Semitism and seeds of “replacement theology” in the Church of Rome following the banishment of Jews from that city by the Emperor Claudius (Acts 18: 2), asks “. . . has God totally rejected and disowned His people?” to which he himself answers, “Never!” (Romans 11: 1). He continues to add a note of warning, “Do not boast over the branches and pride yourself at their expense. If you do boast and feel superior, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root [that supports] you.” . . . “And even those others [the fallen branches], Jews] if they do not persist in [clinging] to their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” . . . “Lest you be self-opinionated – wise in your own conceits – I do not want you to miss the hidden truth and mystery (the mystery of the Jews being kept on hold during an intermediary period): a hardening (insensibility) has (temporarily) befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles had come in, And so all Israel (the remaining remnant at His Second Coming) will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” (Romans 11: 18, 23, 25, 26; Isaiah 59: 20, 21). These passages from Scripture declare unequivocally that God has not transferred His promises with regards to the Jews’ final inheritance of the land of Israel and Jerusalem to the church. God has not written off His people and is going to fulfill every promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This will all come to pass during the 7th week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy which still lies in the future.

Could the 7th week have been fulfilled in the past as the Posttribulationists prefer to believe? Did the 69 and last 7 weeks run in immediate succession without a gap in between? Such a scenario is highly unlikely. Daniel leaves no room for doubt when he says that exactly 69 weeks of years (483 years) expired between the going forth of the command to build Jerusalem until the coming of the anointed One (Daniel 9: 25) (referring of course to the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey - Matthew 21: 1-11) and a mere four days later He was cut off (crucified) but not for Himself. From the day He was crucified in 32 AD, 38 years expired before the temple and the sanctuary was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD. Had the destruction occurred within the seven years immediately following the fulfillment of the 69 weeks one would have to concede that the 7th week did indeed follow the 69 weeks of years without any gap, but then all the other events Daniel mentions to be fulfilled within the gamut of the 7th week would have to be ignored completely. In verse 24 Daniel unequivocally says that 70 weeks of years or 490 years would expire before a final end will be made to his peoples’ transgressions, before the full measure of their sin will be sealed up, before they will finally be purged and complete reconciliation be made for their sins and before everlasting righteousness will be ushered in at the inauguration of Christ’s 1000 year reign of peace on earth. Has this all been accomplished during the seven years immediately following the fulfillment of the 69 weeks? The short answer is a resounding, no! In fact, judgment fell upon Daniel’s people in stead of reconciliation; animosity rather than love for the Messiah became more ferocious as the experience of His disciples clearly show. Would Jesus have wept under His remorseful words, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate:” (Luke 13: 34, 25) if all the aforementioned blessings had been fulfilled in the seven years directly after the 69 weeks of years? As Sir Robert Anderson so eloquently says in his book “The Coming Prince,” . . . We may conclude, then, that when wicked hands set up the cross on Calvary, and God pronounced the dreaded "Lo-ammi" (Romans 9:25, 26; cf. Hosea 1:9, 10) upon His people, the course of the prophetic era ceased to run. Nor will it flow on again till the autonomy of Judah is restored; and, with obvious propriety, that is held to date from the moment their readmission into the family of nations is recognized by treaty. It will, therefore, be here assumed that the former portion of the prophetic era has run its course, but that the events of the last seven years have still to be accomplished.”

The seven year period of Tribulation will run in strict sequential order without a gap or a break. Several pointedly obvious truths in prophecy prove this very fact. We know from Daniel 9: 27; 11: 31; 12: 11 and Matthew 24: 15 that Antichrist is going to break the covenant of peace which he will have made with Israel at the beginning of the seven year period of Tribulation. This will occur precisely in the middle of the seven year period of Tribulation or after the first 3 ½ years of considerable peace and safety he secured for Israel in his covenant with the Jewish nation. During that time, as Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24, Antichrist will sit as God in the Holy of Holies of the newly built temple and the Jews will be forced to flee (Matthew 24: 16-22). The following 3 ½ years will be a time the world has never before experienced and never will again experience – the Great Tribulation.

Now! If the first 3 ½ years transpired during the time when Jesus walked the earth and the next 3 ½ years will only occur when Jesus returns to reign, then we are living in the intermediary or halfway time between the two 3 ½ years. But this is impossible! I haven’t heard of any Jews making a covenant with Antichrist as of yet. Neither have I heard of any Jews fleeing to the mountains. They are entangled in a life and death situation at the moment, but they are still firmly settled in Israel with Jerusalem as their eternal capitol. They definitely haven’t fled yet. Where is the newly built temple where Antichrist, who hasn’t even revealed himself to this day, will sit as God in the holiest of holies? To accommodate this view – a gap between the first and the second 3 ½ years – the adherents to this view must of necessity spiritualize the present gap of more than 2000 years since Jesus’ ascent into heaven. Therefore they say, that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and that the church has replaced them. In addition, they say that the temple will not be a newly built visible structure but is every individual Christian and the church collectively. For this to be true, the Antichrist cannot be a literal person but also a spiritualized entity who sits in the church as a whole. Although most of the churches today are following the spirit of Antichrist, he cannot and will never gain a foothold in the lives of all true believers because it is written, “We know [absolutely] that any one born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him – Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil – and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (1 John 5: 18).

Another very important thing to note is Jesus’ declaration in Matthew 24: 22 which reads as follows, “And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones – the Jews and gentiles who remain faithful during the terrible days of persecution) those days will be shortened.” We know from several places in Scripture, one of which I have already quoted, that Antichrist is going to vent his terrible anger and vengeance against all mankind in the middle of the seven year period of Tribulation which is going to last for another 3 ½ years before his final defeat when Jesus returns. Now, if you look at verse 15 where Antichrist’s appalling sacrilege of the Holiest of Holies is described, you will see that it is followed in verse 16 by the word “then.” That word clearly indicates that it follows the previous occurrence in strict chronological and immediate order without any gap. Once again, if there was a gap between the first and second 3 ½ years of the seven year period of Tribulation then we have been living in that time for the last 2000 years. Does that sound like a shortening of the terrible time of tribulation because no man will be able to endure and survive? I therefore contend that the first and second 3 ½ years will follow without any gap. Thus the seven year tribulation is a future event which you, I and all the other believers will not experience.

Another very important thing to note is that God "will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart." (Zechariah 10: 12-14). Has this happened in the past or to this date? No! because it is a future event that is going to happen at the end of the Great Tribulation (70th week) during Christ's Second Advent to judge the nations of the earth.

The question has been asked many time “Why should anyone extend this seventy week period. Why should anyone make it longer than seventy weeks. Why should the final week be split in two, making it longer than a week? These questions are valid ones and I think the answer must be sought in the magnanimous character of God. King David extols with great joy God’s character when He says in Psalm 103, “The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy and loving-kindness. He will not always chide or be contending, neither will he keep His anger for ever or hold a grudge. He has not dealt with us after our sins, nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great are His mercy and loving-kindness toward those who reverently and worshipfully fear Him.” Now! read this together with 2 Peter 3: 9 and you will understand why He is still deferring His Son’s return and the ushering in of His Kingdom on earth, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” God is not extending the seventy-week period or making it any longer. He has put the Jewish nation on hold as far as His promises to them through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are concerned, because He has extended His grace and loving-kindness to all the gentile nations as well. Paul describes God’s interim period (the last 2000 years of His grace and loving-kindness and long-suffering) in Romans 11: 8-12 “According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?” The “fullness” Paul mentions here is the time when God is going to fully reinstate Israel in their land during the Millennial age of Christ on earth. God will never rescind His promises to His peculiar people the Jews. If He were to do that He would have been a liar and a cheat who no one can trust. Indeed, He is great in mercy and loving-kindness and longsuffering toward all mankind, so much so that He was prepared to set His chosen people aside for a while so that others (the gentiles) may benefit from His merciful grace.

Tom

The Professor
Apr 23rd 2006, 10:19 PM
All the proponents of the Pre-, Mid-, and Postribulation Rapture agree that the 69 weeks in Daniel’s prophecy have already been fulfilled to the very letter. Therefore, there is no argument to be made against a literal fulfillment of the last week of the 70 week cycle. Pretribulaionists, as opposed to the Postribulationist’s view that the 7th week immediately followed the 69th, believe that there is a gap between the two periods and consequently that the 7th week still lies in the future. Has it already been fulfilled or is it a future event still to be fulfilled?

Is there enough evidence from Scripture that such a chronologically defined sequence of events such as the 70 weeks in Daniel could be interrupted indefinitely? If human judgment were to decide the question whether the final period of the cycle together with the divine promised blessings be forever abrogated and lost because the Jews “killed the Prince of Life” (Acts 3; 15), a ready answer may have been forthwith very easily. The question however remains – is there a precedent for this to be found in the mystical chronology of Israel’s history?

According to 1 Kings 6: 1 Solomon built the temple in the 480th year after Israel’s redemption from slavery in Egypt. Chronologists have rejected it as forgery and a blunder and even Scripture seems to dismiss it as an error. In his sermon at Pisidian Antioch (Acts 13: 18-21) Paul elaborated on the chronology of the history of his nation: 40 years in the wilderness; 450 years under the judges, and 40 years of the reign of Saul, making a total of 530 years. Add to this the 40 years of David’s reign and the first 3 years of Solomon’s then a total of 573 years is reached which leaves a gap of 93 years amiss in the chronology of these events. Can this apparent inconsistency be reconciled?

Following the history of Israel in the Book of Judges it becomes clear that their national existence as Jehovah’s peculiar people was in temporal abeyance for several periods. This happened in times of their punishment for their idolatry when they were “sold into the hands of their enemies.” They became slaves of the King of Mesopotamia for 8 years, to the King of Maob for 18 years, to the King of Canaan for 20 years, to the Midianites for 7 years, and finally to the Philistines for 40 years. The sum of 8 + 18 +20 + 7 + 40 = 93 which, when deducted from the 573, leaves a total of 480 years. Can there be any doubt that the 480 years of the Book of Kings from the Exodus to the temple is a mystic era formed by eliminating every period during which the people were cast off or kept on hold by God? If God had temporarily cast off His people in the past only to reinstate them again, could He not presently be doing the same thing? Indeed, Paul who wrote his epistle to the Romans primarily to correct the developing anti-Semitism and seeds of “replacement theology” in the Church of Rome following the banishment of Jews from that city by the Emperor Claudius (Acts 18: 2), asks “. . . has God totally rejected and disowned His people?” to which he himself answers, “Never!” (Romans 11: 1). He continues to add a note of warning, “Do not boast over the branches and pride yourself at their expense. If you do boast and feel superior, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root [that supports] you.” . . . “And even those others [the fallen branches], Jews] if they do not persist in [clinging] to their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” . . . “Lest you be self-opinionated – wise in your own conceits – I do not want you to miss the hidden truth and mystery (the mystery of the Jews being kept on hold during an intermediary period): a hardening (insensibility) has (temporarily) befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the Gentiles had come in, And so all Israel (the remaining remnant at His Second Coming) will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” (Romans 11: 18, 23, 25, 26; Isaiah 59: 20, 21). These passages from Scripture declare unequivocally that God has not transferred His promises with regards to the Jews’ final inheritance of the land of Israel and Jerusalem to the church. God has not written off His people and is going to fulfill every promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This will all come to pass during the 7th week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy which still lies in the future.

Could the 7th week have been fulfilled in the past as the Posttribulationists prefer to believe? Did the 69 and last 7 weeks run in immediate succession without a gap in between? Such a scenario is highly unlikely. Daniel leaves no room for doubt when he says that exactly 69 weeks of years (483 years) expired between the going forth of the command to build Jerusalem until the coming of the anointed One (Daniel 9: 25) (referring of course to the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey - Matthew 21: 1-11) and a mere four days later He was cut off (crucified) but not for Himself. From the day He was crucified in 32 AD, 38 years expired before the temple and the sanctuary was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD. Had the destruction occurred within the seven years immediately following the fulfillment of the 69 weeks one would have to concede that the 7th week did indeed follow the 69 weeks of years without any gap, but then all the other events Daniel mentions to be fulfilled within the gamut of the 7th week would have to be ignored completely. In verse 24 Daniel unequivocally says that 70 weeks of years or 490 years would expire before a final end will be made to his peoples’ transgressions, before the full measure of their sin will be sealed up, before they will finally be purged and complete reconciliation be made for their sins and before everlasting righteousness will be ushered in at the inauguration of Christ’s 1000 year reign of peace on earth. Has this all been accomplished during the seven years immediately following the fulfillment of the 69 weeks? The short answer is a resounding, no! In fact, judgment fell upon Daniel’s people in stead of reconciliation; animosity rather than love for the Messiah became more ferocious as the experience of His disciples clearly show. Would Jesus have wept under His remorseful words, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate:” (Luke 13: 34, 25) if all the aforementioned blessings had been fulfilled in the seven years directly after the 69 weeks of years? As Sir Robert Anderson so eloquently says in his book “The Coming Prince,” . . . We may conclude, then, that when wicked hands set up the cross on Calvary, and God pronounced the dreaded "Lo-ammi" (Romans 9:25, 26; cf. Hosea 1:9, 10) upon His people, the course of the prophetic era ceased to run. Nor will it flow on again till the autonomy of Judah is restored; and, with obvious propriety, that is held to date from the moment their readmission into the family of nations is recognized by treaty. It will, therefore, be here assumed that the former portion of the prophetic era has run its course, but that the events of the last seven years have still to be accomplished.”

The seven year period of Tribulation will run in strict sequential order without a gap or a break. Several pointedly obvious truths in prophecy prove this very fact. We know from Daniel 9: 27; 11: 31; 12: 11 and Matthew 24: 15 that Antichrist is going to break the covenant of peace which he will have made with Israel at the beginning of the seven year period of Tribulation. This will occur precisely in the middle of the seven year period of Tribulation or after the first 3 ½ years of considerable peace and safety he secured for Israel in his covenant with the Jewish nation. During that time, as Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24, Antichrist will sit as God in the Holy of Holies of the newly built temple and the Jews will be forced to flee (Matthew 24: 16-22). The following 3 ½ years will be a time the world has never before experienced and never will again experience – the Great Tribulation.

Now! If the first 3 ½ years transpired during the time when Jesus walked the earth and the next 3 ½ years will only occur when Jesus returns to reign, then we are living in the intermediary or halfway time between the two 3 ½ years. But this is impossible! I haven’t heard of any Jews making a covenant with Antichrist as of yet. Neither have I heard of any Jews fleeing to the mountains. They are entangled in a life and death situation at the moment, but they are still firmly settled in Israel with Jerusalem as their eternal capitol. They definitely haven’t fled yet. Where is the newly built temple where Antichrist, who hasn’t even revealed himself to this day, will sit as God in the holiest of holies? To accommodate this view – a gap between the first and the second 3 ½ years – the adherents to this view must of necessity spiritualize the present gap of more than 2000 years since Jesus’ ascent into heaven. Therefore they say, that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and that the church has replaced them. In addition, they say that the temple will not be a newly built visible structure but is every individual Christian and the church collectively. For this to be true, the Antichrist cannot be a literal person but also a spiritualized entity who sits in the church as a whole. Although most of the churches today are following the spirit of Antichrist, he cannot and will never gain a foothold in the lives of all true believers because it is written, “We know [absolutely] that any one born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him – Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil – and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (1 John 5: 18).

Another very important thing to note is Jesus’ declaration in Matthew 24: 22 which reads as follows, “And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones – the Jews and gentiles who remain faithful during the terrible days of persecution) those days will be shortened.” We know from several places in Scripture, one of which I have already quoted, that Antichrist is going to vent his terrible anger and vengeance against all mankind in the middle of the seven year period of Tribulation which is going to last for another 3 ½ years before his final defeat when Jesus returns. Now, if you look at verse 15 where Antichrist’s appalling sacrilege of the Holiest of Holies is described, you will see that it is followed in verse 16 by the word “then.” That word clearly indicates that it follows the previous occurrence in strict chronological and immediate order without any gap. Once again, if there was a gap between the first and second 3 ½ years of the seven year period of Tribulation then we have been living in that time for the last 2000 years. Does that sound like a shortening of the terrible time of tribulation because no man will be able to endure and survive? I therefore contend that the first and second 3 ½ years will follow without any gap. Thus the seven year tribulation is a future event which you, I and all the other believers will not experience.

Another very important thing to note is that God "will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart." (Zechariah 10: 12-14). Has this happened in the past or to this date? No! because it is a future event that is going to happen at the end of the Great Tribulation (70th week) during Christ's Second Advent to judge the nations of the earth.

The question has been asked many time “Why should anyone extend this seventy week period. Why should anyone make it longer than seventy weeks. Why should the final week be split in two, making it longer than a week? These questions are valid ones and I think the answer must be sought in the magnanimous character of God. King David extols with great joy God’s character when He says in Psalm 103, “The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy and loving-kindness. He will not always chide or be contending, neither will he keep His anger for ever or hold a grudge. He has not dealt with us after our sins, nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great are His mercy and loving-kindness toward those who reverently and worshipfully fear Him.” Now! read this together with 2 Peter 3: 9 and you will understand why He is still deferring His Son’s return and the ushering in of His Kingdom on earth, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” God is not extending the seventy-week period or making it any longer. He has put the Jewish nation on hold as far as His promises to them through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are concerned, because He has extended His grace and loving-kindness to all the gentile nations as well. Paul describes God’s interim period (the last 2000 years of His grace and loving-kindness and long-suffering) in Romans 11: 8-12 “According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?” The “fullness” Paul mentions here is the time when God is going to fully reinstate Israel in their land during the Millennial age of Christ on earth. God will never rescind His promises to His peculiar people the Jews. If He were to do that He would have been a liar and a cheat who no one can trust. Indeed, He is great in mercy and loving-kindness and longsuffering toward all mankind, so much so that He was prepared to set His chosen people aside for a while so that others (the gentiles) may benefit from His merciful grace.

Tom


Tom, let the scripture speak.


It says that a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years.

We know without doubt that 69 weeks have definitely been fulfilled at Christ. It doesn't take paragraphs of words to understand that time is consecutive and that the final week is not going to occur on your time schedule because no man knows the day or the hour.

And I'll say again, history (even Jewish history) didn't end at 70 AD. Most turn of the century (20th) scholars based their exegesis on the fact that Israel didn't exist.

But now we know better. Their history didn't end at 70 AD. They are a nation again.


That piece is a jumble. It does not make anything clear. Too many words, not enough Word.

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 10:35 PM
Tom


Replacement theology — one of the more subtle forms of anti-Semitism

“Replacement Theology” is a moot term that Dispies have invented in order to slander those that believe God has only ever had one elect people. I know of no Bible student (that believes there is one fold / one body throughout time) that believes we have replaced physical Israel. Dispensationalists invented the phrase “Replacement Theology” as an intended slur against those that believe God's chosen people are those alone that possess the spirit of Christ (Old Testament and New Testament). Dispies created this bogus term in a desperate attempt to misrepresent and undermine the growing rejection of Dispensationalism. Some more extreme elements within Premillennialism have even accused those who believe that the NewTestamentChurch is the sole continuation of the Israel of Israel in the Old Testament as being Anti-Semitic. Notwithstanding, the Bible teaches that Jew and Gentile alike who trust Christ are completely equal in Christ Jesus today being part of the one unitary trans-national body. The saints in the New Testament are therefore harmoniously connected to the saints in the Old Testament. The term "Replacement Theology" is plainly a misnomer.

"In Adam" all men are equally sinners; “Jew and Gentile” alike share the same awful sentence. Regardless of what race a man belongs to, where he was geographically born, how privileged his upbringing, or whether his birth-date was pre or post Calvary, he is still a vile sinner in need of redemption. The Bible says that we are all “by nature the children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). It is this corrupt nature that ultimately separates man from God. The Bible says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12). Everyone since Adam has inherited his sinful nature. We “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Race therefore cannot therefore be advanced in any way as a means of justification before God – even if it is a (supposed) law-keeping Jew.

Faith is the key that opens the door for salvation to the Jew and Gentile in this New Testament economy. Faith is the key that opened (past tense) the door of salvation to the Jew and Gentile in the Old Testament economy. Salvation for the Jew in this age (the only age before the new heavens and a new earth) must therefore come in this age by grace through faith "in Christ" alone.


Sadly anti-Semitism is the fastest growing evils of our world today and it is even more heartbreaking to see how many gentile Christians believe the lie that God has taken away the Kingdom from them and given it to the church.

Your view of anti-Semitism is coloured by Darby, not Scripture. Amils believe the Bible not falible man. Jesus said in Matthew 21:42-43, “Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you,The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."


St. Augustine’s work,

No, Scriptures work.


“The City of God,” promoting the opinion that the Millennium Kingdom was inaugurated on earth when the church was instituted in the New Testament after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ and the subsequent outpouring of His Holy Spirit, contributed a great deal to instill Replacement Theology in the minds of gentile Christians to this very day.

The kingdom is here now spiritually now, all that are under the kingship of Christ are in it (both Jew and Gentile), all that reject Christ are outside it (both Jew and Gentile).

The allegorical or spiritualized method of the a-millennial interpretation of the 1000 years of peace on earth was the natural outflow of replacement theology because it was the only way of incorporating a 1000 years into a much longer period (more than 2000 years) since the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

Sorry Tom. In case you haven't read it, born again believers are already in the kingdom.
Colossians 1:12-14 tells us that God “hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

Paul

wpm
Apr 23rd 2006, 10:41 PM
Professor, surely you ought to know what the difference is between one week (seven years) and everlasting? However, if a-millennialists can extend a 1000 years to more than 2000 years, I suppose they can extend one week (seven years) to everlasting.

The abomination of desolation has nothing to do with the abominable inquisitions of the Roman Church. Jesus referred to it in Matthew 24: 15 as something standing in the Holy Place of the rebuilt Tribulation temple.

Tom

Hmm. I think this is strange coming from someone that believes that the last 7 ys stretch our 2,000+ yrs.

Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular Divine truths or ideas; one thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figuresto impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents.In fact, English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as "a very large number" or "a great number or amount." This use is very common in our daily language.

Paul

ScottJohnson
Apr 24th 2006, 12:03 AM
Tom



“Replacement Theology” is a moot term that Dispies have invented in order to slander those that believe God has only ever had one elect people. I know of no Bible student (that believes there is one fold / one body throughout time) that believes we have replaced physical Israel. Dispensationalists invented the phrase “Replacement Theology” as an intended slur against those that believe God's chosen people are those alone that possess the spirit of Christ (Old Testament and New Testament). Dispies created this bogus term in a desperate attempt to misrepresent and undermine the growing rejection of Dispensationalism. Some more extreme elements within Premillennialism have even accused those who believe that the NewTestamentChurch is the sole continuation of the Israel of Israel in the Old Testament as being Anti-Semitic. Notwithstanding, the Bible teaches that Jew and Gentile alike who trust Christ are completely equal in Christ Jesus today being part of the one unitary trans-national body. The saints in the New Testament are therefore harmoniously connected to the saints in the Old Testament. The term "Replacement Theology" is plainly a misnomer.

"In Adam" all men are equally sinners; “Jew and Gentile” alike share the same awful sentence. Regardless of what race a man belongs to, where he was geographically born, how privileged his upbringing, or whether his birth-date was pre or post Calvary, he is still a vile sinner in need of redemption. The Bible says that we are all “by nature the children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). It is this corrupt nature that ultimately separates man from God. The Bible says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12). Everyone since Adam has inherited his sinful nature. We “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Race therefore cannot therefore be advanced in any way as a means of justification before God – even if it is a (supposed) law-keeping Jew.

Faith is the key that opens the door for salvation to the Jew and Gentile in this New Testament economy. Faith is the key that opened (past tense) the door of salvation to the Jew and Gentile in the Old Testament economy. Salvation for the Jew in this age (the only age before the new heavens and a new earth) must therefore come in this age by grace through faith "in Christ" alone.



Your view of anti-Semitism is coloured by Darby, not Scripture. Amils believe the Bible not falible man. Jesus said in Matthew 21:42-43, “Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you,The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."



No, Scriptures work.



The kingdom is here now spiritually now, all that are under the kingship of Christ are in it (both Jew and Gentile), all that reject Christ are outside it (both Jew and Gentile).

The allegorical or spiritualized method of the a-millennial interpretation of the 1000 years of peace on earth was the natural outflow of replacement theology because it was the only way of incorporating a 1000 years into a much longer period (more than 2000 years) since the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

Sorry Tom. In case you haven't read it, born again believers are already in the kingdom.
Colossians 1:12-14 tells us that God “hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

Paul


Paul, this is an outstanding post.

Obviously the case of Daniel's 70 weeks was satisfied within the first six pages of this thread by you, David and Moonglow. Apparently when all else fails resort to propaganda tactics such as labeling disenters to the pre-mill doctrine as "replacement theologist" and then equating that term with anti-semitism. Real Christ-like action.

When I was in the pre-mill camp, I chose just to simply study the proof that the preterist gave. This is why I'm now in that camp. The only thing that I see that can blind a person to the scriptural proof that has been laid out on this thread that supports the complete fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy is pride. Either that or a bizarre and inate need to argue just for the sake of arguing.

anyway, thanks for all that you've done on this board. I'm learning a lot. :thumbsup:

ScottJohnson
Apr 24th 2006, 02:10 AM
Does separate plans mean that He has a separate agenda of salvation for the Jew and the gentile? No! not at all. God's plan for the Jews pertain mostly to their restoration to their own land at Jesus Christ's Second Advent.

Is there anything in the New Testament that corroborates this? As I see it, the second advent will usher in the eternal state. If God for what ever reason is obligated to restore land to the Jewish people, then can't we say that this happened in 1948?


Tell me, the fact that the Jews' eyes are presently blinded to the Gospel for the sake of the Gentiles, is that not part of God's separate plan for the Jew and the gentile?

It seems to me that the Jew's eyes are partially blinded to the Gospel is because Jesus didn't fit the mold that had been created for Him at His first advent. You can add to that pride, power lust, greed. All these played a factor in the ways and whys of the first century Jewish heirarchy leading the masses astray.

I'm not the one that claims there are seperate plans for Jews and gentiles, and whether you view it this way or not, I don't know. I can't compensate for your personal variations on Darby's theology. I do know, generically speaking of course, dispensational futurist do believe that. This is why the seventieth week of Daniel must still be in our future. The "parenthetical" period. This is the so called "great tribulation". This is the reason for the pre-trib or mid trib rapture, so as to remove the church from the planet so God can resume dealing with the Jews. Somehow bringing all of them to salvation.

I personally don't buy any of this, I feel that it's unbiblical and absurd. But it apparently makes sense to the majority of "Christians" in the world today.

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 08:42 AM
Is there anything in the New Testament that corroborates this? As I see it, the second advent will usher in the eternal state. If God for what ever reason is obligated to restore land to the Jewish people, then can't we say that this happened in 1948?



It seems to me that the Jew's eyes are partially blinded to the Gospel is because Jesus didn't fit the mold that had been created for Him at His first advent. You can add to that pride, power lust, greed. All these played a factor in the ways and whys of the first century Jewish heirarchy leading the masses astray.

I'm not the one that claims there are seperate plans for Jews and gentiles, and whether you view it this way or not, I don't know. I can't compensate for your personal variations on Darby's theology. I do know, generically speaking of course, dispensational futurist do believe that. This is why the seventieth week of Daniel must still be in our future. The "parenthetical" period. This is the so called "great tribulation". This is the reason for the pre-trib or mid trib rapture, so as to remove the church from the planet so God can resume dealing with the Jews. Somehow bringing all of them to salvation.

I personally don't buy any of this, I feel that it's unbiblical and absurd. But it apparently makes sense to the majority of "Christians" in the world today.

You have stated your position very boldly and manfully. Are you saying that God's promises to the Jews are absurd, unreliable and untrustworthy and are you prepared to repeat your words when you appear before the judgment seat of God one day?

Tom

CFJ
Apr 24th 2006, 09:00 AM
GW

What does these Replacement Theologians you speak of think we have replaced?

(1) Natural Israel? No, natural Israel is still natural Israel. We are still Gentiles. It would be a total absurdity for the believing Church to be grafted into a carnal Christ-rejecting physical nation. The New Testament Church has not replaced physical Israel which is represented in Scripture by the fig tree. Any way, physical birth never warranted salvation in any age, so we (the true NT Church) have NOT replaced a Christ-rejecting physical seed. Surely, every sane theologian would acknowledge that the New Testament Church has in no way been “grafted into” natural Israel; this would indeed be replacement theology!!!

(2) Spiritual Israel? No, we joined them in the lineage of Abraham "by faith." We have been grafted as branches into the good olive tree – the redeemed Church throughout time. We have not replaced them; we have become part of them. The Church is the historic continuation of spiritual Israel, to the exclusion of any nationality Jew or Gentile in any age that rejects God's only provision for sin - the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Jews that reject Christ today are not God's chosen people; the Jews today that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour are God's chosen people. Along the Gentile Christians everyone that comes onto Christ in repentance belongs onto Christ. Who is excluded from coming to Christ? Those that reject salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Paul

Amen Paul! The fulfillment of the OT and NT must be seen as bringing one message for mankind together as one. When reasoning from the Scriptures, your vase (fulfilment) must be full to ensure that your argument holds to the truth. To fulfill is to make completely full... Thayers defenition...

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4134
Citing in TDNT: 6:286, 867

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 09:17 AM
Amen Paul! The fulfillment of the OT and NT must be seen as bringing one message for mankind together as one. When reasoning from the Scriptures, your vase (fulfilment) must be full to ensure that your argument holds to the truth. To fulfill is to make completely full... Thayers defenition...

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4134
Citing in TDNT: 6:286, 867


You are barking up the wrong tree. Replacement Theology says that all the promises God gave to Israel have been transferred to the church. In other words the promise that the whole land of Canaan was given to His people as an everlasting possession is now spiritually the possession of the church (Genesis 17:8; 48:1). Dead wrong!

Tom

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 10:02 AM
You are barking up the wrong tree. Replacement Theology says that all the promises God gave to Israel have been transferred to the church. In other words the promise that the whole land of Canaan was given to His people as an everlasting possession is now spiritually the possession of the church (Genesis 17:8; 48:1). Dead wrong!

Tom

They may do. I have never met such people. Who on this board argues this? It is a moot term intended to demonise the biblical truth that the Church has been grafted into the Israel of God. They are the true chosen people (consisting of both Jew and Gentile. Race means nothing to God, it is all of grace.

Galatians 5:2-6 says, “If ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit (or advantage) you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

profit = opheleo: from the same as NT:5622; to be useful, i.e. to benefit: - advantage, better, prevail, profit.

Here we see in plain language how our natural birthright (whether it is Jewish or Gentile) means nothing in the eyes of a thrice-holy God. We learn, as in numerous passages throughout Scripture, that “neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision.” It is a delusion to think that God in practice would contradict His Word make circumcision advantageous or honourable. It is rather saving faith that is required, salvation being now open to all nations.

Paul

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 10:15 AM
Tom



“Replacement Theology” is a moot term that Dispies have invented in order to slander those that believe God has only ever had one elect people. I know of no Bible student (that believes there is one fold / one body throughout time) that believes we have replaced physical Israel. Dispensationalists invented the phrase “Replacement Theology” as an intended slur against those that believe God's chosen people are those alone that possess the spirit of Christ (Old Testament and New Testament). Dispies created this bogus term in a desperate attempt to misrepresent and undermine the growing rejection of Dispensationalism. Some more extreme elements within Premillennialism have even accused those who believe that the NewTestamentChurch is the sole continuation of the Israel of Israel in the Old Testament as being Anti-Semitic. Notwithstanding, the Bible teaches that Jew and Gentile alike who trust Christ are completely equal in Christ Jesus today being part of the one unitary trans-national body. The saints in the New Testament are therefore harmoniously connected to the saints in the Old Testament. The term "Replacement Theology" is plainly a misnomer.
“Replacement Theology” is a moot term that Dispies have invented in order to slander those that believe God has only ever had one elect people???” Apparently you know very little about recent church history. Ignorance often drives one to unfounded accusations. Please do not resort to those kinds of naïve tactics when you are that ill-informed about church history and God’s promises with regard to His peculiar people, the Jews.

In America alone in recent times the Jews have been downtrodden in a jungle of prejudice. Ironically it is not unbelievers who are doing the abominable persecution but the worst offenders are Protestant and Catholic conservatives. That is so disgusting, to say the least, that one can understand why the Jews find Christianity so offensive and repulsive. A multitude of stereotyped falsehoods have been hurled in a fit of hatred from the pulpits and printed in Sunday School quarterlies generation after generation. Aren’t true (please note “true”) Christians supposed to present the Jews with the Gospel of Jesus Christ? . . . and yet the following disgusting instruction to Sunday School teachers appeared in the literature of major denominations.

Do not use the expression “the wicked soldiers who were ill-treating Jesus” without taking care that the children do not identify “to be a soldier” with “to be wicked.”. . . One should not speak of “wicked soldiers,” but of “wicked Jews.” In the Passion narrative the soldiers should be treated simply doing what they were ordered to do.
In another Sunday School quarterly the following abominable and poisonous hatred was spewed out against the Jews.

The Jews turned their backs on God, they refused His Son, and they worshiped pagan gods. And they have been sorely punished for centuries as a result . . . . They are not really wanted anywhere (“Christian teaching and Anti-Semitism: Semitinizing Religious Texts,” by James Brown, Commentary, Dec. 1975, pp. 494-501).
It seems that American church people, especially conservative Protestants, have a very long way to go in dispelling anti Jewish prejudices.
And now, as we speak and write, the Americans under President Bush who calls himself a Christian are perpetrating one of the worst kinds of anti-Semitism imaginable – the dividing of God’s land in a program called “Roadmap to Peace.” What does God say about all these architects of peace?

I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. (Joel 3:2)
Have you noticed that God did not say “I will enter into judgment against them concerning my church (Jews and Gentiles united in Christ)? He said “I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel.” Why would He do that? . . . Because they have scattered His people amongst the nations and divided (parted) His land.

The following excerpt appears in Dave Hunt’s new book “Judgment Day” pages 223 – 224.

My wife, Ruth, and I, together with our four children, ages eight to fifteen, were driving through Egypt at that time in our VW minibus, as eyewitnesses to Arab intentions. Early in June, on an Egyptian freighter from Alexandria to Beirut (at that time the “jewel of the Mediterranean,” comparable to any European city), I sat in the lounge with wild-eyed, cheering Arabs around me, watching on TV the military buildup under Nasser and listening as he vowed repeatedly that Israel would be destroyed. We saw the confident exhilaration with which the Arab world was intoxicated, momentarily united behind Nasser in this common goal, certain that the time had come at last to exterminate the Jews. We were driving through Syria into Jordan when the Lord graciously redirected us north to Turkey. We crossed that border safely just before war broke out. Instead of waiting passively until the enemies surrounding and threatening her decided in their time and way to begin the attack, Israel had no choice but to make a preemptive strike in self-defense. As friends should do, Israel told the U.S. of its plans and was promptly betrayed to the Arabs. The destruction of the Egyptian and Syrian air forces on the ground and the humiliating defeat of the Arab armies in what became known as the “Six-Day War” is history. It was just another fulfillment of inerrant biblical prophecy: “In that day will I make the governors of Judah like…a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about…and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again . . .” On June 8, the morning of the fourth day of the war, the USS Liberty, a floating electronics vacuum, arrived off the Sinai coast. It began to sweep Israel, sucking in every Israeli military communication and relaying it all to the British Secret Service’s giant electronic listening post on Cyprus, which had the capability of filtering, decoding, and analyzing the mass of electronics the Liberty was accumulating. This was then transmitted to the Arab armed forces, giving complete maps of every Israeli military movement in advance. With that help, the Arabs might have been able to use their overwhelming numerical superiority to turn the tide of the war. At least casualties on both sides would have been much larger. The CIA had already been leaking secret Israeli information to the Jordanians, but what the Liberty was doing was carrying the diplomatic game too far. Israel had no choice except to sink this American ship, which she did forthwith. Of course, the media was filled with criticism for this heartless attack. No one believed Israel’s excuse that the Liberty had been mistaken for a hostile Egyptian ship. Neither the U.S. nor Israel cared to tell the truth, so the criticism persists to this day. Abba Eban, Israeli foreign minister, came the closest to telling the story, if one reads between the lines. He was in New York at the United Nations attempting to arrange a cease-fire. Although the Egyptians, in the months before the war, had gone on record repeatedly that they were going to attack Israel and would exterminate all the Israelis, they now self-righteously demanded that Israeli forces withdraw first. But when the Liberty was sunk, Eban reports that the Egyptian ambassador to the UN, El-Kony, was reduced to tears, having received a message from Cairo “to get a cease-fire as soon as possible.” This is not the only time the Americans have betrayed Israel, their only true ally in the Middle East. After all, unlike the Soviets in the days when they were the chief sponsors of the Arabs, the U.S. tries to play both sides.
As in the days of Hitler neither the Catholic Church nor the Protestants spoke out against this atrocity. Why? Because they believe that they have replaced Israel and that this was just another one of God’s righteous judgments on an accursed people who deserve to be eliminated from the face of the earth. And you say “Replacement Theology” is a moot term that Dispies have invented in order to slander those that believe God has only ever had one elect people.” Strange observation . . . strange indeed.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 10:25 AM
They may do. I have never met such people. Who on this board argues this? It is a moot term intended to demonise the biblical truth that the Church has been grafted into the Israel of God. They are the true chosen people (consisting of both Jew and Gentile. Race means nothing to God, it is all of grace.

Galatians 5:2-6 says, “If ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit (or advantage) you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

profit = opheleo: from the same as NT:5622; to be useful, i.e. to benefit: - advantage, better, prevail, profit.

Here we see in plain language how our natural birthright (whether it is Jewish or Gentile) means nothing in the eyes of a thrice-holy God. We learn, as in numerous passages throughout Scripture, that “neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision.” It is a delusion to think that God in practice would contradict His Word make circumcision advantageous or honourable. It is rather saving faith that is required, salvation being now open to all nations.

Paul


You keep on trying to evangelize the already evangelized. There is no need for you to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ to me or any other Christian on the board. What you fail to see is that God is going to restore His peculiar people (chosen people) to their own land and fulfill every promise He made to them as His people.

You never met such people on this board???

Tom

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 10:43 AM
You keep on trying to evangelize the already evangelized. There is no need for you to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ to me or any other Christian on the board. What you fail to see is that God is going to restore His peculiar people (chosen people) to their own land and fulfill every promise He made to them as His people.

You never met such people on this board???

Tom

Are you telling me that people that reject Christ are God's chosen people today?

Paul

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 10:45 AM
They may do. I have never met such people. Who on this board argues this? It is a moot term intended to demonise the biblical truth that the Church has been grafted into the Israel of God. They are the true chosen people (consisting of both Jew and Gentile. Race means nothing to God, it is all of grace.


Ezekiel 20:39-44 (KJV)
39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God has no regard for race??? He is going to change a sinful and rebellious race into a holy race FOR THE SAKE OF HIS NAME.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 10:55 AM
Are you telling me that people that reject Christ are God's chosen people today?

Paul

Come on wpm. Get your head into gear. Chosen in the Bible is never unto salvation but unto service and blessing. How many times do I have to tell you that before you believe it? Israel was chosen to bless the entire world through their Jewish Messiah and His Word. I am not saying that the entire Jewish race (past, present and future) are going to be saved and neither will the entire Gentile world. Only a substantial few Jews in comparison to the larger number of Gentiles will be saved. Nevertheless, God still has a plan for the unbelieving Jews of today. Read Ezekiel 20:39-44 again and take special cognizance of the phrase "for my name's sake."

Tom

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 11:09 AM
Ezekiel 20:39-44 (KJV)
39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God has no regard for race??? He is going to change a sinful and rebellious race into a holy race FOR THE SAKE OF HIS NAME.

Tom

Only if they bow the knee to Christ. By doing so they join the Church of Jesus Christ - the only organism God has on this earth to manifest His glory. All are grafted in on the same basis (namely sinners saved by grace) and all enjoy the same piviledges (that are expressly spiritual). Those outside of the redeemed Church (both Jew and Gentile) are of their father the devil and are destined for hell.

Paul

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 11:11 AM
Come on wpm. Get your head into gear. Chosen in the Bible is never unto salvation but unto service and blessing. How many times do I have to tell you that before you believe it? Israel was chosen to bless the entire world through their Jewish Messiah and His Word. I am not saying that the entire Jewish race (past, present and future) are going to be saved and neither will the entire Gentile world. Only a substantial few Jews in comparison to the larger number of Gentiles will be saved. Nevertheless, God still has a plan for the unbelieving Jews of today. Read Ezekiel 20:39-44 again and take special cognizance of the phrase "for my name's sake."

Tom

God has a plan for those (Jew and Gentile) that will repent in this age - the only age of salvation.

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 24th 2006, 12:14 PM
Are going to be surprised, or disappointed wpm, when the Master of the universe does exactly what he says he will do. I would bet its disappointed because Israel will yet be chosen and saved from their sins. Just like the Bible states

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 01:18 PM
Only if they bow the knee to Christ. By doing so they join the Church of Jesus Christ - the only organism God has on this earth to manifest His glory. All are grafted in on the same basis (namely sinners saved by grace) and all enjoy the same piviledges (that are expressly spiritual). Those outside of the redeemed Church (both Jew and Gentile) are of their father the devil and are destined for hell.

Paul

Who said they (corporate Israel) are not going to bow their knee to Jesus Christ? I can't understand why you want to evangelize the already evangelized. Every Christian knows that only those who are in Christ are saved. Although they are presently still in unbelief, God is not finished with His people the Jews. Tell me, what does the word "fulness" mean in Romans 11;12

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 01:27 PM
God has a plan for those (Jew and Gentile) that will repent in this age - the only age of salvation.

Paul

Perhaps you should read Romans 11 again prayerfully and note carefully that there is a time of fulness for the Gentiles and a time of fulness for the Jews. Corporate Israel's eyes are still blinded to the Gospel of Jesus Christ for your, mine and that of the entire Gentile world's sake. However, when the fulness of the Gentiles have come in God is going to remove the spiritual callouses that are prersently blinding their eyes. Paul's salvation is a type of corporate Israel's salvation. But then again, you would only pooh pooh such a possibility.

Tom

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 01:46 PM
Every Christian knows that only those who are in Christ are saved. Although they are presently still in unbelief, God is not finished with His people the Jews.


Those that reject Christ are not God's chosen people today - despite what you imagine. That is lie from hell. They are off their father the devil. The Gentiles that do likewise are the same. You are wrong to call Christ-rejecters "His people."


Perhaps you should read Romans 11 again prayerfully and note carefully that there is a time of fulness for the Gentiles and a time of fulness for the Jews. Corporate Israel's eyes are still blinded to the Gospel of Jesus Christ for your, mine and that of the entire Gentile world's sake. However, when the fulness of the Gentiles have come in God is going to remove the spiritual callouses that are prersently blinding their eyes. Paul's salvation is a type of corporate Israel's salvation. But then again, you would only pooh pooh such a possibility.

When Christ came unto the physical nation of Israel at His first advent, John 1:11 records, “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”In fact, not only did they reject Him, they cruelly nailed Him to a tree. Since the cross the natural Jew has largely rebelled against God’s gracious provision for sin, Jesus Christ. Despite this rebellion however, Scripture seems to suggest that a “part” (or a portion) of natural Jews will continue to come into union with Christ during the time when the Gospel is drawing in the Gentiles. Consequently, they have not all been blinded. Romans 11:25 declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in (or, of) part is happened to Israel,achris hou (or) while wherein the fulness (or full amount) of the Gentiles be come in.”

The Greek rendered “until” in the King James Version is actually two words in the original achris hou. The word hou is left un-interpreted in the AV, and interprets as “wherein” in our language. It is difficult to know why the translators left it out, but it seems proper to interpret it in such an important passage. Whilst the lone word achris can be translated “until” (as it is in the King James Version) it may also equally be translated “while.” The truth is it doesn’t particularly matter which of the two meanings one prefers sincecoupled with the connecting word hou both give us the same general meaning.Translating this word hou (as we should) seems to place a different sense on the whole verse. That’s why “while wherein” seems to better reflect what the writer was trying to say. Romans 11:25 is therefore simply teaching that during the whole intra-Advent period an ongoing amount of Jews will continue to be grafted in to the Israel of God (the one and only good olive tree). Manifestly, they are not all blinded; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn't restricted to a mass repentance by the whole nation at the end (prior to the Lord's Coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). We contend this reading makes no such definite suggestion along that line.

Dispensationalists interpret Romans 11:25 as if the engrafting must occur after the in-coming of the Gentiles, however, the original doesn't say that. It declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness inpart is happened toIsrael,achris hou(or)while wherein (or, while) the fulnessof the Gentiles be come in.” The same sense is found in Luke 21:24 (a passage that Dispensationalists wrongly present as a proof-text for their beliefs), which says, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, achris hou (or) while wherein (or, while) the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Like Romans 11:25, this passage depicts two concurrent happening – the treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles while the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Despite what our Dispensationalist brethren might imagine, this is still ongoing. Whilst Modern Israel has got a small part of land in Palestine, they occupy it in blatant disbelief. They remain opposed to the glorious Gospel of Christ as much as they did 2,000 years ago. In fact, there were more true believers back then. Israel can in no way be said to be fulfilling to plan of God. Anyway, the time of the Gentiles is still active and will be until the Lord’s return.

Whilst one cannot dismiss the possibility of interpreting achris houas ‘until wherein’, it doesn’t seem to best cover what is being expressed in Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24. Unfortunately, one’s view of the meaning of these two words may indeed be coloured by one’s theological position. Notwithstanding, there are two parallel events seen in Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24, part of the Israeli nationals will be graciously drawn into the Church as the Gentiles are grafted in. Galatians 3:16, 18-19 says, “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds (plural), as of many; but as of one (single), and to thy seed, which is Christ … For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, achris hou (or) while wherein the seed should come to whom the promise was made;and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”

There is plainly one seed (Jew and Gentile), not two. There is one children of promise (Jew and Gentile), not two. The spiritual seed of Abraham is found solely today within the Church of Jesus Christ. It is they alone that are “blessed” and are now part of the eternal “promises made.” Significantly, natural Israel, which is after the flesh, is still overwhelmingly Christ-rejecting and therefore still outside of grace and of hope, and sadly bound as a people for a Christless hell. Only those Jews who have placed their faith in Christ can enter into salvation and into the spiritual lineage of their natural father Abraham. This occurs during the same period that the Gentiles enter. A close look at the original text of Romans 11:25, Luke 21:24 and Galatians 3:16 seems to rule out the idea being proposed by Futurists. Scripture repeatedly makes clear, Jew and Gentile will be brought into the body of Christ together up until the Coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium / Satan's little season. Premils fall into a Dispensational trap when they divorce Jew and Gentile in this New Testament age. Paul the Apostle insists they are now one in Christ.

Paul

John146
Apr 24th 2006, 02:04 PM
But there is only one first class citizen in heaven:

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Also:

12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:12-13 (NIV)

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 05:50 PM
Those that reject Christ are not God's chosen people today - despite what you imagine. That is lie from hell. They are off their father the devil. The Gentiles that do likewise are the same. You are wrong to call Christ-rejecters "His people."



We have the choice of either accepting and believing these anti-Semitic theories or the immutable promises of God. God promised that Israel shall not cease as a nation forever.

Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day and the fixed order of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, Who stirs up the sea's roaring billows or stills the waves when they roar—the Lord of hosts is His name: If these ordinances [of fixed order] depart from before Me, says the Lord, then the posterity of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me throughout the ages. (Jeremiah 31:35-36)

Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens belong to the Lord your God, the earth also, with all that is in it and on it. Yet the Lord had a delight in loving your fathers, and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. (Deut. 10:14-15)
How can it be from hell when God Himself said that He has chosen Israel? Note very carefully the distinction God makes between the physical descendants of the patriarchs and all the other peoples (nations). Therefore, one cannot say that he is referring to the patriarchs’ spiritual descendants from all nations, tongues and tribes. He is unequivocally referring only to the physical descendants of the patriarchs as His chosen people and clearly says that He has chosen them as His people above all the other nations. To do what? To be a nation separated unto Himself so that He may reveal Himself to the other nations as the only true God and to provide a lost world with their Jewish Messiah. But what about their idolatry, rebellion, and failures? Doesn’t that annul God’s promises to them? The majority may have been cut off but a small minority or remnant has remained in tact throughout the ages. Has the full remnant already come in? No! for Paul says that all Israel shall be saved when the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has been accomplished. To say that the word “until” actually means “while the Gentiles are being gathered in” is rather forced and untenable for the simple reason that Paul also says that the fullness of Israel’s salvation will be such a great blessing to the gentiles that it would be nothing short of a corpse being raised from the dead. Has this already happened or is it presently in the process of happening while the Gentiles are still being gathered in? Hardly, because the Jews are presently still being despised by the entire Gentile world.

Consider also the following Scriptures which proves that Israel is still undeniably God’s chosen people.

For by what shall it be known that I and Your people have found favor in Your sight? Is it not in Your going with us so that we are distinguished, I and Your people, from all the other people upon the face of the earth? (Exodus 33:16)
But I have said to you, You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey. I am the Lord your God, Who has separated you from the peoples . . . And you shall be holy to Me; for I the Lord am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine. (Leviticus 20: 24, 26).

Tom

Gw butler
Apr 24th 2006, 06:04 PM
As to what will occur with Israel. They belong to God and will always be his choice. This fact dosent detract from our salvation. We are saved thru grace, but so are the Israelis and always have been. The Israelis know sacrificies didnt save them, only grace did that. This is where many miss the message

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 06:11 PM
When Christ came unto the physical nation of Israel at His first advent, John 1:11 records, “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”In fact, not only did they reject Him, they cruelly nailed Him to a tree. Since the cross the natural Jew has largely rebelled against God’s gracious provision for sin, Jesus Christ. Despite this rebellion however, Scripture seems to suggest that a “part” (or a portion) of natural Jews will continue to come into union with Christ during the time when the Gospel is drawing in the Gentiles. Consequently, they have not all been blinded. Romans 11:25 declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in (or, of) part is happened to Israel,achris hou (or) while wherein the fulness (or full amount) of the Gentiles be come in.”

The Greek rendered “until” in the King James Version is actually two words in the original achris hou. The word hou is left un-interpreted in the AV, and interprets as “wherein” in our language. It is difficult to know why the translators left it out, but it seems proper to interpret it in such an important passage. Whilst the lone word achris can be translated “until” (as it is in the King James Version) it may also equally be translated “while.” The truth is it doesn’t particularly matter which of the two meanings one prefers sincecoupled with the connecting word hou both give us the same general meaning.Translating this word hou (as we should) seems to place a different sense on the whole verse. That’s why “while wherein” seems to better reflect what the writer was trying to say. Romans 11:25 is therefore simply teaching that during the whole intra-Advent period an ongoing amount of Jews will continue to be grafted in to the Israel of God (the one and only good olive tree). Manifestly, they are not all blinded; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn't restricted to a mass repentance by the whole nation at the end (prior to the Lord's Coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). We contend this reading makes no such definite suggestion along that line.

Dispensationalists interpret Romans 11:25 as if the engrafting must occur after the in-coming of the Gentiles, however, the original doesn't say that. It declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness inpart is happened toIsrael,achris hou(or)while wherein (or, while) the fulnessof the Gentiles be come in.” The same sense is found in Luke 21:24 (a passage that Dispensationalists wrongly present as a proof-text for their beliefs), which says, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, achris hou (or) while wherein (or, while) the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Like Romans 11:25, this passage depicts two concurrent happening – the treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles while the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Despite what our Dispensationalist brethren might imagine, this is still ongoing. Whilst Modern Israel has got a small part of land in Palestine, they occupy it in blatant disbelief. They remain opposed to the glorious Gospel of Christ as much as they did 2,000 years ago. In fact, there were more true believers back then. Israel can in no way be said to be fulfilling to plan of God. Anyway, the time of the Gentiles is still active and will be until the Lord’s return.

Whilst one cannot dismiss the possibility of interpreting achris houas ‘until wherein’, it doesn’t seem to best cover what is being expressed in Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24. Unfortunately, one’s view of the meaning of these two words may indeed be coloured by one’s theological position. Notwithstanding, there are two parallel events seen in Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24, part of the Israeli nationals will be graciously drawn into the Church as the Gentiles are grafted in. Galatians 3:16, 18-19 says, “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds (plural), as of many; but as of one (single), and to thy seed, which is Christ … For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, achris hou (or) while wherein the seed should come to whom the promise was made;and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”

There is plainly one seed (Jew and Gentile), not two. There is one children of promise (Jew and Gentile), not two. The spiritual seed of Abraham is found solely today within the Church of Jesus Christ. It is they alone that are “blessed” and are now part of the eternal “promises made.” Significantly, natural Israel, which is after the flesh, is still overwhelmingly Christ-rejecting and therefore still outside of grace and of hope, and sadly bound as a people for a Christless hell. Only those Jews who have placed their faith in Christ can enter into salvation and into the spiritual lineage of their natural father Abraham. This occurs during the same period that the Gentiles enter. A close look at the original text of Romans 11:25, Luke 21:24 and Galatians 3:16 seems to rule out the idea being proposed by Futurists. Scripture repeatedly makes clear, Jew and Gentile will be brought into the body of Christ together up until the Coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium / Satan's little season. Premils fall into a Dispensational trap when they divorce Jew and Gentile in this New Testament age. Paul the Apostle insists they are now one in Christ.

Paul

Would you mind telling me whether the following prophecies have already be fulfilled?


THE BURDEN or oracle (the thing to be lifted up) of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus says the Lord, Who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him: Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup or bowl of reeling to all the peoples round about, and in the siege against Jerusalem will there also be a siege against and upon Judah. And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples; all who lift it or burden themselves with it shall be sorely wounded. And all the nations of the earth shall come and gather together against it. In that day, says the Lord, I will smite every horse [of the armies that contend against Jerusalem] with terror and panic and his rider with madness; and I will open My eyes and regard with favor the house of Judah and will smite every horse of the opposing nations with blindness. And the chiefs of Judah shall say in their hearts, The inhabitants of Jerusalem are our strength in the Lord of hosts, their God. In that day will I make the chiefs of Judah like a big, blazing pot among [sticks of] wood and like a flaming torch among sheaves [of grain], and they shall devour all the peoples round about, on the right hand and on the left; and they of Jerusalem shall yet again dwell and sit securely in their own place, in Jerusalem. And the Lord shall save and give victory to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not be magnified and exalted above Judah. In that day will the Lord guard and defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and he who is [spiritually] feeble and stumbles among them in that day [of persecution] shall become [strong and noble] like David; and the house of David [shall maintain its supremacy] like God, like the Angel of the Lord Who is before them. And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of [the city of] Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddo [over beloved King Josiah]. And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the [kingly] family of the house of David apart and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan [David's son] apart and their wives apart; The [priestly] family of the house of Levi apart and their wives apart; the family of Shimei [grandson of Levi] apart and their wives apart; All the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves [each with an overwhelming individual sorrow over having blindly rejected their unrecognized Messiah]. (Zechariah 12: 1-14)

THE HAND of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. And He caused me to pass round about among them, and behold, there were very many [human bones] in the open valley or plain, and behold, they were very dry. And He said to me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, You know! Again He said to me, Prophesy to these bones and say to them, O you dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath and spirit to enter you, and you shall live; And I will lay sinews upon you and bring up flesh upon you and cover you with skin, and I will put breath and spirit in you, and you [dry bones] shall live; and you shall know, understand, and realize that I am the Lord [the Sovereign Ruler, Who calls forth loyalty and obedient service]. So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a [thundering] noise and behold, a shaking and trembling and a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked and behold, there were sinews upon [the bones] and flesh came upon them and skin covered them over, but there was no breath or spirit in them. Then said He to me, Prophesy to the breath and spirit, son of man, and say to the breath and spirit, Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath and spirit, and breathe upon these slain that they may live. So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath and spirit came into [the bones], and they lived and stood up upon their feet, an exceedingly great host. Then He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried up and our hope is lost; we are completely cut off. Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you to the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord [your Sovereign Ruler], when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, O My people. And I shall put My Spirit in you and you shall live, and I shall place you in your own land. Then you shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord have spoken it and performed it, says the Lord. The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, Son of man, take a stick and write on it, For Judah and the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel his companions; And join them together into one stick that they may become one in your hand. And when your people say to you, Will you not show us what you mean by these? Say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph--which is in the hand of Ephraim--and the tribes of Israel his associates, and will join with it the stick of Judah and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. When the sticks on which you write shall be in your hand before their eyes, Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations to which they have gone, and will [a]gather them from every side and bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, neither be divided into two kingdoms any more. They shall not defile themselves any more with their idols and their detestable things or with any of their transgressions, but I will save them out of all their dwelling places and from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them. So shall they be My people, and I will be their God. And David My Servant shall be King over them, and they all shall have one Shepherd. They shall also walk in My ordinances and heed My statutes and do them. They shall dwell in the land in which your fathers dwelt, that I gave to My servant Jacob, and they shall dwell there, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My Servant David shall be their Prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, and I will give blessings to them and multiply them and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. My tabernacle or dwelling place also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [B]Then the nations shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord do set apart and consecrate Israel for holy use, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forevermore.

Tom

David Taylor
Apr 24th 2006, 06:40 PM
You are barking up the wrong tree. Replacement Theology says that all the promises God gave to Israel have been transferred to the church. In other words the promise that the whole land of Canaan was given to His people as an everlasting possession is now spiritually the possession of the church (Genesis 17:8; 48:1). Dead wrong!

Tom

If it is dead wrong, then why do you Tom, keep preaching it?

Noone else on this forum, with the exception of another dispensationalist (GW Butler) is teaching what you teach above.

Galatians makes it clear that Christ is the recipient to the promises given to Abraham. Christ is the seed, not national Isreal who reject Christ.

The everlasting possession is Christ Himself.

He alone is everlasting.....not a chunk of land national Israel has never even managed to hold for even 500 years...how is that remotely everlasting?

You yourself, while you don't realize it, admit loud and clear that the land itself, cannot be, an everlasting possession. (because they haven't held it entirely throughout time)

Again, to find the fulfillment of the 'everlasting posession' you have to find someone who is everlasting.

Christ.



And Christ gives freely, His everlasting posession to anyone (Jew or Gentile) as they come to accept and follow Him!

Again, noone is replaced. Those who follow Christ receive the everlasting posession.
Those who reject Christ get damnation.

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 06:50 PM
If it is dead wrong, then why do you Tom, keep preaching it?

Noone else on this forum, with the exception of another dispensationalist (GW Butler) is teaching what you teach above.

Galatians makes it clear that Christ is the recipient to the promises given to Abraham. Christ is the seed, not national Isreal who reject Christ.

The everlasting possession is Christ Himself.

He alone is everlasting.....not a chunk of land national Israel has never even managed to hold for even 500 years...how is that remotely everlasting?

You yourself, while you don't realize it, admit loud and clear that the land itself, cannot be, an everlasting possession. (because they haven't held it entirely throughout time)

Again, to find the fulfillment of the 'everlasting posession' you have to find someone who is everlasting.

Christ.



And Christ gives freely, His everlasting posession to anyone (Jew or Gentile) as they come to accept and follow Him!

Again, noone is replaced. Those who follow Christ receive the everlasting posession.
Those who reject Christ get damnation.


Perhaps you would like to respond to my post #199 and present me with some solid exegeses of those portions in Scripture I quoted. And please don't tell me that they should be spiritualized.

Tom

7Trumpets
Apr 24th 2006, 06:53 PM
The Meaning of Israel
Jacob was originally a deceitful man who went to great lengths to steal Esau’s blessing. Of course the plan was by his mother but he was not forced to comply and he went along willingly and lied to his father. Forced to flee for his deceit, he spent 20 years working for Laban his relative and was himself deceived ten times (Gen 31:7, 41).

On his way home he heard of Esau coming with 400 heavily armed men and filled with sorrow for his trickery of twenty years before (for which he had already repented), he eventually struggled with Christ and overcame. The reason why he overcame and was not struck dead was because of his true repentance. Thus his name was changed to Israel:

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed… And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Gen 32:28, 30

Israel means overcomer; prince with God and he will rule as God

Many years later, Hosea had reason to comment on this struggle with God. This is how the prophet reviewed it:

The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us Hosea 12:2-4

What we must note is that Jacob is the deceiver, Israel is the overcomer. That is the key point!! Notice what Jesus said to His new disciple:

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! John 1:47

A true Israelite is one in whom there is no guile or deceit (and that is the story of the 144,000). Thus not every person who claims to be from the bloodline of Jacob can actually claim to be a true Israelite. This is what Jesus said to the murdering Jews:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

They were called children of the devil!! Recall what the first gospel sermon was:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:15

Without controversy the seed of the woman is Christ, for only He can defeat the devil, and this was fulfilled at Calvary (Colossians 2:14, 14; Hebrews 2:14, 15)

There will always be two groups – the seed of the woman and the seed of the devil. Obviously, this is not biological but spiritual, since all descended from Eve. Thus although there are biologically important themes like the bloodline of Jesus, the true importance of the Bible is in the spiritual. Jesus [“O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?...”(Matt 12:34); “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matt 23:33)], and even John the Baptist called the Pharisees children of Satan.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7

It is therefore against the Bible to declare that all BIOLOGICAL Israel will be saved.

Thus to recap so far, if any of the children of Jacob are ungodly, they are children of Satan, but if they have confessed their sins and given up deceit and guile, they are true Israelites who have overcome. That is what Paul was writing when he said:

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:26

Notice again that Jacob is the guilty party (ungodly) and Israel is the righteous (saved by the grace of God after confession). This all Israel shall be saved does NOT apply to the nation of Israel, therefore, but to true believers in Christ. This is corroborated by the other passage:

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom 10:12, 13

There we see that all Israel is synonymous with whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord, just as Jacob did in his time of trouble. In reality, there is no difference between Jew and others in Christ. There are several other New Testament texts to prove that.

The person who dwells on Old Testament promises and ignores New Testament realities have failed to see (especiallyif you are a Christian) that ALL Scripture have their end in Christ. If the Scriptures do not point to Christ, if they do not exalt Him and His sacrifice; the gospel is diminished by false theories about Israel and a rather foolish view to looking toward another temple, animal sacrifices, an antichrist in Jerusalem and so on.

Let the New and Old Testament harmonise - they are the Two Witnesses (not men). All Scriptures teach about Christ!

Stay tuned for part 2 to see how Jesus (a Jew) replaced Israel.

moonglow
Apr 24th 2006, 07:19 PM
Wonderful post 7Trumpets...very well done...not only using the bible to prove what the bible says...:lol: but other scriptures to back it all up...good study there!

I would love to see you debate those that say Christ is not even in the OT...:lol:

If you don't mind I am going to copy your post and save it...I know I will want to refer to it sometime and won't beable to find it again in this very long thread..


God bless

7Trumpets
Apr 24th 2006, 07:19 PM
The nation of Israel prefigured Christ and when and where they failed, Christ came and succeeded so, “He has done all things well.” Mark 7:37 In the first instance, He became Israel. When God sent Moses to Pharaoh, this is how He referred to Israel:

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.” Exodus 4:22

Now this text explicitly referred to the children of Israel who were in bondage in Egypt. So the question must be posed, “What does this have to do with Christ?” We continue further and see what God said to Hosea: “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.” Hosea 11:1 (This is the same Hosea who commented on the struggle of Jacob with Christ and overcoming)

This is in direct reference to when God took Israel out of Egypt. Now when we turn to the New Testament we see that Herod wanted to kill the Baby Jesus and His parents were warned to flee to Egypt. Matthew says this is in fulfillment of the prophecy.

“And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:15

If we followed the life of Jesus we see more examples. Baptism, temptation, overcoming and many more.

Israel was baptized when crossing through the Red Sea, then spent forty years in the wilderness:

“ Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food” 1 Corinthians 10:1-3
So the LORD's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was gone. Numbers 32:13

Jesus was baptized in the Jordan and then spent forty days and nights in the wilderness

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Matt 3:16, 17; and immediately afterwards
“Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” Matt 4:1-3

The key point to note is that the Son as Jesus is called, pertains to Him replacing Israel as the Son of God, and just as the descendants of Jacob were called God’s firstborn in Exodus, now Christ is called the firstborn on earth.

All Israel will be saved, is now more easily understood. As a writer mentioned, Paul, in his letter to the Ephesians explained it beautifully.

Ephesians 2:11-22
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Notice a few key points.

Gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.
Now Gentiles are brought near by the blood of Christ (the gospel)
Christ has made ONE of Gentiles and Jews
Thus Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners (those who maintan a distinction, spiritually, are troublemakers)
The new temple of God is the Christian church (Jews and Gentiles)
Christ is the chief cornerstone
God dwells in our hearts through His Spirit

Dispensationalism is a big lie and serves to create tension between Jews and Christians. Tom Lessing has a noble objective to protect the Jews, and I support him in that, and I do not put any more blame on the Jews than on myself for the death of Christ.

If I was not responsible for Christ's death, then He did not die for my sins, so I am responsible. Nevertheless, to exalt the Jews who for the most part reject Jesus is very demonic. There will be no special consideration given to any individual than what God is doing now. Even now His Holy Spirit is pleading with the hearts of all to accept Jesus. Jesus is the only way to salvation, and those who willingly and knowingly reject Jesus will be lost. Further, there is no second chance at the advent.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2 Thess 1:6-9

The mystery of iniquity does work indeed. But the antichrist, who was known from the Reformation, along with all those wo believe the lie will all be destroyed. What a waste! To think Christ died for all and some throw away their eternal destinies with Christ because they believe not the gospel but hold on to lies spread by the Counter Reformation started by Ribera, and spread by Irving, Darby, Schofield, La Haye, Lindsay and others.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Those who do not accept Christ will be destroyed at His coming - in flaming fire. This is also described as the harvest of the grapes.

CFJ
Apr 24th 2006, 07:42 PM
You are barking up the wrong tree. Replacement Theology says that all the promises God gave to Israel have been transferred to the church. In other words the promise that the whole land of Canaan was given to His people as an everlasting possession is now spiritually the possession of the church (Genesis 17:8; 48:1). Dead wrong!

Tom

Tom, seems to me that if someone throws the accusation "antisemitic", some might go as far as recant even Jesus, Who is the whole purpose and reason for the Good News. After all, the same ones, or types should I say, who hate replacement theology, also hates Jesus when it is/was confessed He replaced Moses in biblical authority... just a thought that comes to mind when I think of it. :hmm:

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 07:48 PM
The Meaning of Israel
Jacob was originally a deceitful man who went to great lengths to steal Esau’s blessing. Of course the plan was by his mother but he was not forced to comply and he went along willingly and lied to his father. Forced to flee for his deceit, he spent 20 years working for Laban his relative and was himself deceived ten times (Gen 31:7, 41).

On his way home he heard of Esau coming with 400 heavily armed men and filled with sorrow for his trickery of twenty years before (for which he had already repented), he eventually struggled with Christ and overcame. The reason why he overcame and was not struck dead was because of his true repentance. Thus his name was changed to Israel:

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed… And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Gen 32:28, 30

Israel means overcomer; prince with God and he will rule as God

Many years later, Hosea had reason to comment on this struggle with God. This is how the prophet reviewed it:

The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us Hosea 12:2-4

What we must note is that Jacob is the deceiver, Israel is the overcomer. That is the key point!! Notice what Jesus said to His new disciple:

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! John 1:47

A true Israelite is one in whom there is no guile or deceit (and that is the story of the 144,000). Thus not every person who claims to be from the bloodline of Jacob can actually claim to be a true Israelite. This is what Jesus said to the murdering Jews:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

They were called children of the devil!! Recall what the first gospel sermon was:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:15

Without controversy the seed of the woman is Christ, for only He can defeat the devil, and this was fulfilled at Calvary (Colossians 2:14, 14; Hebrews 2:14, 15)

There will always be two groups – the seed of the woman and the seed of the devil. Obviously, this is not biological but spiritual, since all descended from Eve. Thus although there are biologically important themes like the bloodline of Jesus, the true importance of the Bible is in the spiritual. Jesus [“O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?...”(Matt 12:34); “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matt 23:33)], and even John the Baptist called the Pharisees children of Satan.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7

It is therefore against the Bible to declare that all BIOLOGICAL Israel will be saved.

Thus to recap so far, if any of the children of Jacob are ungodly, they are children of Satan, but if they have confessed their sins and given up deceit and guile, they are true Israelites who have overcome. That is what Paul was writing when he said:

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:26

Notice again that Jacob is the guilty party (ungodly) and Israel is the righteous (saved by the grace of God after confession). This all Israel shall be saved does NOT apply to the nation of Israel, therefore, but to true believers in Christ. This is corroborated by the other passage:

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom 10:12, 13

There we see that all Israel is synonymous with whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord, just as Jacob did in his time of trouble. In reality, there is no difference between Jew and others in Christ. There are several other New Testament texts to prove that.

The person who dwells on Old Testament promises and ignores New Testament realities have failed to see (especiallyif you are a Christian) that ALL Scripture have their end in Christ. If the Scriptures do not point to Christ, if they do not exalt Him and His sacrifice; the gospel is diminished by false theories about Israel and a rather foolish view to looking toward another temple, animal sacrifices, an antichrist in Jerusalem and so on.

Let the New and Old Testament harmonise - they are the Two Witnesses (not men). All Scriptures teach about Christ!

Stay tuned for part 2 to see how Jesus (a Jew) replaced Israel.
New testament realities will remain concealed and obscure to those who misinterpret Old testament promises. To say that every promise in the Old Testament has already been fulfilled in Christ and that there is nothing more to look for in the future is rather naïve. How, for instance did the following find its end in Christ’s First Advent?

The inhabitants of Jerusalem are our strength in the Lord of hosts, their God. In that day will I make the chiefs of Judah like a big, blazing pot among [sticks of] wood and like a flaming torch among sheaves [of grain], and they shall devour all the peoples round about, on the right hand and on the left; and they of Jerusalem shall yet again dwell and sit securely in their own place, in Jerusalem. And the Lord shall save and give victory to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not be magnified and exalted above Judah. In that day will the Lord guard and defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and he who is [spiritually] feeble and stumbles among them in that day [of persecution] shall become [strong and noble] like David; and the house of David [shall maintain its supremacy] like God, like the Angel of the Lord Who is before them. And it shall be in that day that I will make it My aim to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of [the city of] Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddo [over beloved King Josiah]. And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the [kingly] family of the house of David apart and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan [David's son] apart and their wives apart; The [priestly] family of the house of Levi apart and their wives apart; the family of Shimei [grandson of Levi] apart and their wives apart; All the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves [each with an overwhelming individual sorrow over having blindly rejected their unrecognized Messiah]. (Zechariah 12: 1-14)

And I shall put My Spirit in you and you shall live, and I shall place you in your own land. Then you shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord have spoken it and performed it, says the Lord. The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, Son of man, take a stick and write on it, For Judah and the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel his companions; And join them together into one stick that they may become one in your hand. And when your people say to you, Will you not show us what you mean by these? Say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph--which is in the hand of Ephraim--and the tribes of Israel his associates, and will join with it the stick of Judah and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. When the sticks on which you write shall be in your hand before their eyes, Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations to which they have gone, and will [a]gather them from every side and bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, neither be divided into two kingdoms any more. They shall not defile themselves any more with their idols and their detestable things or with any of their transgressions, but I will save them out of all their dwelling places and from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them. So shall they be My people, and I will be their God. And David My Servant shall be King over them, and they all shall have one Shepherd. They shall also walk in My ordinances and heed My statutes and do them. They shall dwell in the land in which your fathers dwelt, that I gave to My servant Jacob, and they shall dwell there, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My Servant David shall be their Prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, and I will give blessings to them and multiply them and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. My tabernacle or dwelling place also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Then the nations shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord do set apart and consecrate Israel for holy use, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forevermore.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 07:50 PM
Tom, seems to me that if someone throws the accusation "antisemitic", some might go as far as recant even Jesus, Who is the whole purpose and reason for the Good News. After all, the same ones, or types should I say, who hate replacement theology, also hates Jesus when it is/was confessed He replaced Moses in biblical authority... just a thought that comes to mind when I think of it. :hmm:

Excuse my ignorance, but I really do not know what you arer driving at.

Tom

KnightwithDignity
Apr 24th 2006, 08:06 PM
We who are Gentiles that receive salvation through Jesus Christ our Saviour are called by Paul, a chosen generation, a peculiar people, a holy nation.

This is the same description given to the Jews.

We are the wild olive branch that is grafted onto the tree. We are counted as being of the decendants of Abraham.

That means that we are therefore, Spiritual Israel.


For the Jews the picture that is painted is this, although they are the decendants of Abraham, if they do not accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then they are likened to the true branch that is torn from the tree. Only as they accept Jesus will they be grafted back on. This means that they are in the same position as the gentiles. Without Christ ... they are separated from God ... and not part of the tree... and need salvation inorder to be grafted on to the tree.

For the Jews that accept Christ, they are the remnant, they are the inheriters of the promises given to Abraham, but then as Gentiles who have received salvation, we also have a part, for there is no distinction between greek or jew or gentile.. we are all as one in the eyes of God.

The church is therefore is the remnant of Israel ... for the first believers ... were all Jews. It was not for about 3 years or more that the Gentiles first came into the church.

CFJ
Apr 24th 2006, 08:16 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but I really do not know what you arer driving at.

Tom

Tom,

Do you have a problem with antisemitic sentiments just as we all know we should have with anyone who's reasoning against Christ, or in other words, is anyone who is against Christ for you or against you?

David Taylor
Apr 24th 2006, 08:17 PM
New testament realities will remain concealed and obscure to those who misinterpret Old testament promises. To say that every promise in the Old Testament has already been fulfilled in Christ and that there is nothing more to look for in the future is rather naïve. How, for instance did the following find its end in Christ’s First Advent?

(Zechariah 12: 1-14)
I haven't seen one person make a post on this forum that tried, quoting Tom Lessing: "To say that every promise in the Old Testament has already been fulfilled in Christ and that there is nothing more to look for in the future"

That viewpoint is called, 'Full-Preterism' (sometimes called Hyper-Preterism or Hymenean-Preterism).

Full-Preterism is something that everyone I have seen posting on this board in the last several months would deny and agree is a false heresay.

From the posts I have read, everyone who has posted on this forum in the last several months believes there are many things yet future, that have not yet been fulfilled.

Such as:
1) The Glorious Appearing of our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ
2) The restitution of all things
3) The resurrection of the Just and the UnJust
4) The gathering of Jesus' Elect to Himself
5) The time when the corruptible inherits incorruption, and mortal inherits immortality
6) The time when we shall be like Him, and see Him face to face
7) The time the wicked are severed from among the just
8) the time when The Creation is freed from the bondage of corruption
9) the time when sin and death are ended
10) the time when all are judged, and those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life inherit the eternal kingdom and those whose reject Christ and are not found in the Lamb's book of Life are cast into the furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are alot of things yet-to-be fulfilled.

It's just that many of the OT prophecies that Dispensationalism and Premillennialism have adopted as future events are not so; and have been fulfilled already.



New testament realities will remain concealed and obscure to those who misinterpret Old testament promises. To say that every promise in the Old Testament has already been fulfilled in Christ and that there is nothing more to look for in the future is rather naïve. How, for instance did the following find its end in Christ’s First Advent?
Wow...I can't believe what I am hearing with this statement, because it is in complete and direct conflict and disagreement with the statement below from Jesus Himself.

Which side shall we choose? Tom's or Jesus'?

Luke 24:25 "Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.

And He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then He opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."



The Zechariah 12 passage for one, has been fulfilled.
Not by my words.
Not by my opinions.
Not be my commentary.

But rather, by the simple teaching of the NT writers, inspired of God to explain and make clearly understood many of the types, shadows, and unclear prophecies of the O.T.

Who better than the NT writers, under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to explain the OT scriptures to us, so that we can understand them.....just like Jesus Himself did directly to the 11 disciples?




Old Testament Prophecy

Zechariah 12:2-10 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces*1, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it*2. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah*3, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood*4, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God*5, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications*6: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced*7, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son*8, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn*9."




New Testament Fulfillment
*1: Matthew 21:42 "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them."


*2: Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."


*3: Luke 7:16 "And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about. "


*4: John 7:48 "Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed."


*5: Mark 14:58 "I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands." Acts 15:14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. "


*6: Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy"


*7: John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. "


*8: Luke 23:28 "But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? "


*9: Matthew 1:25 "she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem"

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 08:41 PM
The nation of Israel prefigured Christ and when and where they failed, Christ came and succeeded so, “He has done all things well.” Mark 7:37 In the first instance, He became Israel. When God sent Moses to Pharaoh, this is how He referred to Israel:

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.” Exodus 4:22
So Moses was sent to Egypt to lead Jesus Christ out of Egypt?

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Why do you think Paul said the following in Romans 9: 4

the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Paul would never have written that to Israel belongs the sonship if Jesus had become Israel. If Jesus Christ had become Israel then Scriptures such as Romans 9: 6 and 11: 26 should be rendered as follows:

For they are not all Jesus Christ, that are of Jesus Christ

and so all Jesus Christ shall be saved

Now this text explicitly referred to the children of Israel who were in bondage in Egypt. So the question must be posed, “What does this have to do with Christ?” We continue further and see what God said to Hosea: “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.” Hosea 11:1 (This is the same Hosea who commented on the struggle of Jacob with Christ and overcoming)

This is in direct reference to when God took Israel out of Egypt. Now when we turn to the New Testament we see that Herod wanted to kill the Baby Jesus and His parents were warned to flee to Egypt. Matthew says this is in fulfillment of the prophecy.

“And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:15

Matthew simply viewed Jesus Christ’s calling out of Egypt as Messiah being profoundly identified with the nation of Israel. It certainly does not mean that Jesus Christ became Israel. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown interprets Matthew 2: 15 thus

15. And was there until the death of Herod--which took place not very long after this of a horrible disease; the details of which will be found in JOSEPHUS [Antiquities, 17.6.1,5,7,8] that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying-- (Ho 11:1). Out of Egypt have I called my son--Our Evangelist here quotes directly from the Hebrew, warily departing from the Septuagint, which renders the words, "From Egypt have I recalled his children," meaning Israel's children. The prophet is reminding his people how dear Israel was to God in the days of his youth; how Moses was bidden to say to Pharaoh, "Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, My first-born; and I say unto thee, Let My son go, that he may serve Me; and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy first-born" (Ex 4:22, 23); how, when Pharaoh refused, God having slain all his first-born, "called His own son out of Egypt," by a stroke of high-handed power and love. Viewing the words in this light, even if our Evangelist had not applied them to the recall from Egypt of God's own beloved, Only-begotten Son, the application would have been irresistibly made by all who have learnt to pierce beneath the surface to the deeper relations which Christ bears to His people, and both to God; and who are accustomed to trace the analogy of God's treatment of each respectively.
They too regard it merely as an indication how deeply Jesus Christ identified with Israel (“deeper relations which Christ bears to His people”) and does not even suggest in the slightest that Jesus Christ became Israel.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 08:44 PM
Tom,

Do you have a problem with antisemitic sentiments just as we all know we should have with anyone who's reasoning against Christ, or in other words, is anyone who is against Christ for you or against you?

Anyone who believes that the church has replaced Israel and that all the promises made to her have already been fulfilled in the church are indeed reasoning against Christ and His immutable promises.

Tom

David Taylor
Apr 24th 2006, 08:51 PM
Anyone who believes that the church has replaced Israel and that all the promises made to her have already been fulfilled in the church are indeed reasoning against Christ and His immutable promises.
Tom
But you Tom and GW Butler are the only two people posting on this discussion board (over the last couple weeks) who are saying the church has replaced Israel.

GW Butler said earlier today, he was going to stop posting on this board.

If you Tom, will now stop saying that the church has replaced Israel, (since you're now the only one doing it) then there will be noone left on this board who is saying that.


"For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " Romans 10:12




"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. " Galatians 3:28




"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. " Colossians 3:11

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 09:05 PM
Tom

There are only two types of people in this world - saved or lost, not three as you are trying to suggest.

You are siding with and defending people that hate Jesus (and are therefore of the devil) and condemning your brethren here that love Jesus and are washed in His precious blood. Whether you realise it or not, Israel is all your focus instead of Christ. What we are trying to tell you is that Christ is everything. He is the fulfilment of every Abrahamic and Davidic promise.

God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:29, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). The sinner (of all nationalities) enters exclusively into communion with God through regeneration and the new birth experience.

Scripture continually tells us that there are only two types of people in this life – saved and lost, the righteous and the wicked; it doesn’t remotely outline three peoples as many futurists try to do. In fact, Paul the Apostle destroys that notion by revealing that both of these two diverse groups include Jew and Gentile alike. Therefore, biblically, everyman is either Christ’s or Satan’s in this life – no convenient man-made in-between.

Please read the following:

The Bible says of the wicked,“Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile” (Romans 2:9).

And of the righteous,“glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also of the Gentile” (Romans 2:10).

Paul’s clear words in this narrative firmly nail the dispensational notion that there are three distinct peoples in this life, namely – saved, lost and natural Jews. They argue, without any scriptural support, that of these three, two are God’s – the Church and the Jews, and one is the devil’s – the wicked. However, Paul concludes, “For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law (Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (Jews) shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:11-12).

This is the constant theme of the New Testament. The Gospel is no longer restricted to the physical race of Israel but it has been opened up to all nations. In fact, them that fear him and walk righteously “in every nation” are now “accepted with him.” He is assuredly “Lord of all.”

Galatians 5:2-6 says, “If ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit (or advantage) you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

The only “all Israel” that is depicted as being saved, and therefore true, are those believers (Jew and Gentile) that have trusted in Christ’s shed blood on Calvary and therefore belong to “the good olive tree.” They have put their faith in God’s only answer to man’s awful plight. This is the only promised seed in God’s eyes. Spiritual Israel is not restricted to natural Israelites; Romans 9:6 expresses that in clear unambiguous language, saying, “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” What we learn here is, there is more to this spiritual title (Israel) than simply physical birthright. Paul then expands, saying, “Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.” He further reinforces his point (as if to eliminate any uncertainty in the reader’s mind), saying, “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.” In short, he says, natural citizenship means nothing when it comes to belonging to the real Israel. It is rather “the children of the promise are counted for the seed” – which we have seen in Galatians 4:28-29 is a group that includes the Gentiles.

Paul

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 09:07 PM
[I][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Blue]*8: Luke 23:28 "But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? "

You have used this verse in one of your previous posts to prove that it is a fulfilment of Zechariah 12. Have you noticed Jesus words "Weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children?" Although it was very noble and pious of them to weep for Jesus who was on His way to the cross, their sorrow was misdirected. Jesus gently corrected their misdirected sorrow by advising them to rather weep over their own sins and that of their children which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and their temple in 70 AD. Zechariah 12 describes Jesus Christ's Second Advent when the remnant of Israel will indeed mourn and weep over their sins. Then and only then will Israel realize and acknowledge that He was pierced for their sins.

Tom

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 09:23 PM
So Moses was sent to Egypt to lead Jesus Christ out of Egypt?
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.Why do you think Paul said the following in Romans 9: 4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.Paul would never have written that to Israel belongs the sonship if Jesus had become Israel. If Jesus Christ had become Israel then Scriptures such as Romans 9: 6 and 11: 26 should be rendered as follows:
For they are not all Jesus Christ, that are of Jesus Christ
and so all Jesus Christ shall be saved

Matthew simply viewed Jesus Christ’s calling out of Egypt as Messiah being profoundly identified with the nation of Israel. It certainly does not mean that Jesus Christ became Israel. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown interprets Matthew 2: 15 thus
15. And was there until the death of Herod--which took place not very long after this of a horrible disease; the details of which will be found in JOSEPHUS [Antiquities, 17.6.1,5,7,8] that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying-- (Ho 11:1). Out of Egypt have I called my son--Our Evangelist here quotes directly from the Hebrew, warily departing from the Septuagint, which renders the words, "From Egypt have I recalled his children," meaning Israel's children. The prophet is reminding his people how dear Israel was to God in the days of his youth; how Moses was bidden to say to Pharaoh, "Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, My first-born; and I say unto thee, Let My son go, that he may serve Me; and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy first-born" (Ex 4:22, 23); how, when Pharaoh refused, God having slain all his first-born, "called His own son out of Egypt," by a stroke of high-handed power and love. Viewing the words in this light, even if our Evangelist had not applied them to the recall from Egypt of God's own beloved, Only-begotten Son, the application would have been irresistibly made by all who have learnt to pierce beneath the surface to the deeper relations which Christ bears to His people, and both to God; and who are accustomed to trace the analogy of God's treatment of each respectively.They too regard it merely as an indication how deeply Jesus Christ identified with Israel (“deeper relations which Christ bears to His people”) and does not even suggest in the slightest that Jesus Christ became Israel.

Tom

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown believed what we are saying on this board. True Israel is the redeemed Church. There is nothing they are saying that disagrees with this.

For example Galatians 6:16 says, "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

Now you deny that we the Church have been grafted into the Israel of God (good olive tree). Here is what Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown say:

"As many - contrasting with the "as many," Galatians 6:12. rule [canon] - a straight rule, to detect crookedness; the rule of faith.
Peace - from God (Ephesians 2:14-17; 6:23), the effect.
Mercy (Romans 15:9) - the cause.
Israel of God - not the Israel after the flesh (1 Corinthians 10:18), among whom those teachers wish to enroll you, but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:9,29; Philippians 3:3). The "and" may imply that as the former clause, "as many," etc., refers to Gentile believers, so "the Israel of God" to Jewish believers. But "and" may be explanatory: even."

Paul

David Taylor
Apr 24th 2006, 09:27 PM
You have used this verse in one of your previous posts to prove that it is a fulfilment of Zechariah 12. Have you noticed Jesus words "Weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children?" Although it was very noble and pious of them to weep for Jesus who was on His way to the cross, their sorrow was misdirected. Jesus gently corrected their misdirected sorrow by advising them to rather weep over their own sins and that of their children which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and their temple in 70 AD. Zechariah 12 describes Jesus Christ's Second Advent when the remnant of Israel will indeed mourn and weep over their sins. Then and only then will Israel realize and acknowledge that He was pierced for their sins.

Tom
Nope...That scenerio is a biblical impossibility, because it would institute salvation by sight, and not by faith.

II Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"

Romans 3:23 "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ"

Romans 9:31 "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith"

II Corinthians 1:24 "for by faith ye stand."

Habakkuk 2:4 "the just shall live by his faith."

Galatians 3:11 "The just shall live by faith. "

Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. "

Galatians 5:5 "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

Ephesians 3:17 "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith"

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith"

Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."





Today is the day of salvation for all men. Do not put off tomorrow, while a day is yet today.

Salvation is as free and open today to the Israeli as it is to the Argentine or Japanese.

God says Come now, any who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give thee rest!

"the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely."

That's truth from the scriptures Tom, for the Jew and the Gentile!!!!

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 09:28 PM
Tom

There are only two types of people in this world - saved or lost, not three as you are trying to suggest.

You are siding with and defending people that hate Jesus (and are therefore of the devil) and condemning your brethren here that love Jesus and are washed in His precious blood. Whether you realise it or not, Israel is all your focus instead of Christ. What we are trying to tell you is that Christ is everything. He is the fulfilment of every Abrahamic and Davidic promise.
I doubt whether you realize it but you are starting to talk a lot of nonsense. Tell me, did Paul wrongfully defend people that hate Jesus (and are therefore of the devil) when he said:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh
Are you prepared to go to hell in stead of the majority of Israel if it were possible to save some of them? I doubt it. Paul was prepared to do so. He did not look upon them as a bunch of Christ-killers whom he reluctantly defended. He wept, as did Jesus when He cried out in agony

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Have you ever wept over Jerusalem and Israel? I doubt it. Rather ask God to give you a heart of compassion for Israel and begin to weep over their persistent rejection of Christ. God commands us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Have you ever prayed for her peace? I doubt it.

I am not defending Israel. I am defending God’s honor and his promises to Israel which you seem to despise.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 09:35 PM
Nope...That scenerio is a biblical impossibility, because it would institute salvation by sight, and not by faith.

II Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"

Romans 3:23 "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ"

Romans 9:31 "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith"

II Corinthians 1:24 "for by faith ye stand."

Habakkuk 2:4 "the just shall live by his faith."

Galatians 3:11 "The just shall live by faith. "

Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. "

Galatians 5:5 "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

Ephesians 3:17 "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith"

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith"

Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."





They will see Him whom they have pierced. Didn't Thomas begin to believe when He saw His pierced side?

You too are trying to evangelize the evangelized.

Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that our faith will be turned into sight when He returns?

Tom

David Taylor
Apr 24th 2006, 09:38 PM
A lost soul in danger of hell-fire is no more less precious based on it's green-card.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Jesus said,
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. " John 6:37

Pray for all lost souls....don't be a bigot, and don't be racist or a respector of persons.

Gw butler
Apr 24th 2006, 09:41 PM
David said, Thats what he wants, and Like I said I am just waiting for the axe to fall, so he will most likely get his wish. Truth is, He is an instigator who prods people into saying things. He is wrong, about several things, but is steeped in his doctrine. Oh well, I dont need the problem and I will stop posting whether I get booted or not. Should make him extremely happy. Heh

7Trumpets
Apr 24th 2006, 09:41 PM
Wonderful post 7Trumpets...very well done...not only using the bible to prove what the bible says...:lol: but other scriptures to back it all up...good study there!

I would love to see you debate those that say Christ is not even in the OT...:lol:

If you don't mind I am going to copy your post and save it...I know I will want to refer to it sometime and won't beable to find it again in this very long thread..


God bless
Thank you very much, Moonglow! Please feel free to use whatever I write and you agree with (from time-to-time I may write what you do not agree with ;). ).

It is also very easy to prove Christ was in the Old Testament - so easy it does not need a debate. And I will use this opportunity to partially (not quite there yet) address Tom Lessing and the Zechariah 12 passage.

The Scriptures (Old Testament) were all teaching about Christ.
The rulers of the day were all scholars (like many on this forum) who studied Scripture seriously to find the true meaning and way to eternal life. Unfortunately, sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong. The biggest mistake was to overlook Jesus. Thus He had to correct them:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

Here Jesus very plainly taught the the Scriptures testified of Him (remember the TWO WITNESSES?)
Maintain a Christ-Centred Focus is the message to the disciples too.

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning me." ' Luke 24:44

The central theme of the entire Bible is Jesus Christ - God The Son. Every single book! Jesus as Creator, Sustainer, Promise, Redeemer and Future. Jesus as Father and Friend. The entire Bible helps you to know Him, how He operates, what is expected of Him, what is expected of us.

In maintaining Christ as the focus, you will see the glorious, amazing, unexplainable Love of Jesus pouring through the pages. Abundant mercy, pity, tenderness, righteousness, and wonders of wonders! the great desire of Jesus to pull us through. All that is holding is back is our own free will; contaminated by sin, it is self-destructive, but Jesus has made it so easy for us, only if we would listen.

Israel after the flesh failed, Jesus succeeded. Let me give you a few texts to show Jesus in the Old Testament.
Genesis 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:1&version=9) Jesus as Creator (with the Father and Holy Spirit). For proof read John 1:1-3, 10; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2, 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-3,%2010;%20Eph%203:9;%20Col%201:16;%20Heb%201:2,%2 010;&version=9;)
Genesis 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:15%20;&version=9;)- the first gospel sermon. Fulfilled in Col 2:14, 15; Heb 2:14; 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col%202:14,%2015;%20Heb%202:14,%2015%20;&version=9;).

Now I want to focus on the gospel, but first show that Christ led Moses and the children of Israel out of Egypt. This is titled

Christ the Lawgiver

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us. Isaiah 33:22.

Now consider Christ in another character, yet not another. It is one that naturally results from His position as Creator, for the One who creates must certainly have authority to guide and control. We read in John 5:22, 23 the words of Christ, that:

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” John 5:22, 23

As Christ is the manifestation of the Father in creation, so is He the manifestation of the Father in giving and executing the law. A few texts of Scripture will suffice to prove this.

In Numbers 21:4-6 we have the partial record of an incident that took place while the children of Israel were in the wilderness. Let us read it.

“Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread." So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.” Numbers 21:4-6


The people spoke against God and against Moses, saying, Why have you brought us up into the wilderness? They found fault with their Leader. This is why they were destroyed by serpents. Now read the words of the apostle Paul concerning this same event:

“nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents.” 1 Cor 10:9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Cor.+10:9&x=16&y=6).

What does this prove? That the Leader against whom they were murmuring was Christ. This is further proved by the fact that when Moses cast in his lot with Israel, refusing to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, he esteemed “the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.” Heb. 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%2011:26;&version=9;). Read also 1 Cor. 10:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%2010:4;&version=9;), where Paul says that the fathers “all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.” So, then, Christ was the Leader of Israel from Egypt.

The third chapter of Hebrews makes clear this same fact. Here we are told to consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful in all His house, not as a servant, but as a Son over His own house. Heb 3:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%203:1-6;&version=9;). Then we are told that we are His house if we hold fast our confidence to the end. Therefore we are exhorted by the Holy Spirit to hear His voice and not to harden our hearts, as the fathers did in the wilderness.

“For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?” Now with whom was He [Christ] angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?” Heb 3:14-17.

Here again Christ is set forth as the Leader and Commander of Israel in their forty years’ sojourn in the wilderness.

The same thing is shown in Josh. 5:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Josh%205:13-15;&version=9;), where we are told that the man whom Joshua saw by Jericho, having a sword drawn in his hand, in response to Joshua’s question, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?” said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” Indeed, no one will be found to dispute that Christ was the real Leader of Israel, although invisible.

Moses, the visible leader of Israel, “endured as seeing Him who is invisible.” Heb 11:27. It was Christ who commissioned Moses to go and deliver His people. Now read Exo 20:1-3:

“And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Exo 20:1-3

Who spoke these words? The One who brought them from Egypt. And who was the Leader of Israel from Egypt? It was Christ. Then who spoke the law from Mt. Sinai? It was Christ, the brightness of the Father’s glory and the express image of His Person, who is the manifestation of God to man. It was the Creator of all created things and the One to whom all judgment has been committed.

This point may be proved in another way. When the Lord comes, it will be “with a shout” (1 Thess. 4:16), which will pierce the tombs and arouse the dead (John 5:28, 29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:28,%2029;&version=9;)).

“The LORD will roar from on high, and utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise will come to the ends of the earth--for the LORD has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the LORD.” Jer. 25:30, 31

Comparing this with Rev. 19:11-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%2019:11-21;&version=9;), where Christ as the Leader of the armies of heaven, the Word of God, King of kings, and Lord of lords, goes forth to tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God, destroying all the wicked, we find that it is Christ who roars from His habitation against all the inhabitants of the earth, when He has His controversy with the nations. Joel adds another point, when he says, “The LORD also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake.” Joel 3:16.

From these texts, to which others might be added, we learn that in connection with the coming of the Lord to deliver His people, He speaks with a voice that shakes the earth and the heavens – “the earth shall reel to and from like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut” (Isa. 24:20), and “the heavens will pass away with a great noise” (2 Peter 3:10). Now read Heb. 12:25, 26:

“See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Heb. 12:25, 26

The time when the Voice speaking on earth shook the earth was when the law was spoken from Sinai (Ex. 19:18-20; Heb. 12:18-20 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ex.+19:18-20;+Heb.+12:18-+20&x=14&y=4)), an event that for awfulness has never had a parallel and never will have until the Lord comes with all the angels of heaven to save His people. But note: The same voice that then shook the earth will, in the coming time, shake not only earth, but heaven also, and we have seen that it is the voice of Christ that will sound with such volume as to shake heaven and earth when He has His controversy with the nations. Therefore it is demonstrated that it was the voice of Christ that was heard from Sinai, proclaiming the Ten Commandments. This is no more than would naturally be concluded from what we have learned concerning Christ as Creator. That is why He said He is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:27, 28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%202:27,%2028;&version=9;)). Indeed, the fact that Christ is a part of the Godhead, possessing all the attributes of Divinity, being the equal of the Father in all respects, as Creator and Lawgiver, is the only force there is in the atonement. It is this alone which makes redemption a possibility.

The focus therefore on Israel after the flesh is a distortion of the gospel, and in the next post I will elaborate more with Christ and Abraham.

Maintan a Christ-Centred Focus!!

ScottJohnson
Apr 24th 2006, 09:47 PM
You have stated your position very boldly and manfully. Are you saying that God's promises to the Jews are absurd, unreliable and untrustworthy and are you prepared to repeat your words when you appear before the judgment seat of God one day?

Tom

No, I'm not saying anything at all like what you're falsely acusing me of. I'm saying that anyone that devises a means of salvation other than faith in Christ is unbiblical and absurd. And dispensationalism has devised such a means.

Masterful job of word twisting. :thumbsup:


Anyone who believes that the church has replaced Israel and that all the promises made to her have already been fulfilled in the church are indeed reasoning against Christ and His immutable promises.

Christ Jesus, Tom, all promises have been fulfilled in Christ. Not the church, but Jesus the Christ. No one thinks that the church replaced Israel. But rather the gentiles or the nations, have been included into the promise that Jesus came and fulfilled. You know full well that's what's been said to you over and over, yet for whatever reason you choose to ignore this and argue for no other reason than the sake of arguing.

I am sincerly sorry that your faith won't allow you to believe that Jesus was capable of doing what He said He would do.

Mat 5:17
Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.

Tom Lessing
Apr 24th 2006, 09:58 PM
Thank you very much, Moonglow! Please feel free to use whatever I write and you agree with (from time-to-time I may write what you do not agree with ;). ).

It is also very easy to prove Christ was in the Old Testament - so easy it does not need a debate. And I will use this opportunity to partially (not quite there yet) address Tom Lessing and the Zechariah 12 passage.

The Scriptures (Old Testament) were all teaching about Christ.
The rulers of the day were all scholars (like many on this forum) who studied Scripture seriously to find the true meaning and way to eternal life. Unfortunately, sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong. The biggest mistake was to overlook Jesus. Thus He had to correct them:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

Here Jesus very plainly taught the the Scriptures testified of Him (remember the TWO WITNESSES?)
Maintain a Christ-Centred Focus is the message to the disciples too.

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning me." ' Luke 24:44

The central theme of the entire Bible is Jesus Christ - God The Son. Every single book! Jesus as Creator, Sustainer, Promise, Redeemer and Future. Jesus as Father and Friend. The entire Bible helps you to know Him, how He operates, what is expected of Him, what is expected of us.

In maintaining Christ as the focus, you will see the glorious, amazing, unexplainable Love of Jesus pouring through the pages. Abundant mercy, pity, tenderness, righteousness, and wonders of wonders! the great desire of Jesus to pull us through. All that is holding is back is our own free will; contaminated by sin, it is self-destructive, but Jesus has made it so easy for us, only if we would listen.

Israel after the flesh failed, Jesus succeeded. Let me give you a few texts to show Jesus in the Old Testament.
Genesis 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:1&version=9) Jesus as Creator (with the Father and Holy Spirit). For proof read John 1:1-3, 10; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2, 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-3,%2010;%20Eph%203:9;%20Col%201:16;%20Heb%201:2,%2 010;&version=9;)
Genesis 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:15%20;&version=9;)- the first gospel sermon. Fulfilled in Col 2:14, 15; Heb 2:14; 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col%202:14,%2015;%20Heb%202:14,%2015%20;&version=9;).

Now I want to focus on the gospel, but first show that Christ led Moses and the children of Israel out of Egypt. This is titled

Christ the Lawgiver

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us. Isaiah 33:22.

Now consider Christ in another character, yet not another. It is one that naturally results from His position as Creator, for the One who creates must certainly have authority to guide and control. We read in John 5:22, 23 the words of Christ, that:

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” John 5:22, 23

As Christ is the manifestation of the Father in creation, so is He the manifestation of the Father in giving and executing the law. A few texts of Scripture will suffice to prove this.

In Numbers 21:4-6 we have the partial record of an incident that took place while the children of Israel were in the wilderness. Let us read it.

“Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread." So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.” Numbers 21:4-6


The people spoke against God and against Moses, saying, Why have you brought us up into the wilderness? They found fault with their Leader. This is why they were destroyed by serpents. Now read the words of the apostle Paul concerning this same event:

“nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents.” 1 Cor 10:9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Cor.+10:9&x=16&y=6).

What does this prove? That the Leader against whom they were murmuring was Christ. This is further proved by the fact that when Moses cast in his lot with Israel, refusing to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, he esteemed “the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.” Heb. 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%2011:26;&version=9;). Read also 1 Cor. 10:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%2010:4;&version=9;), where Paul says that the fathers “all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.” So, then, Christ was the Leader of Israel from Egypt.

The third chapter of Hebrews makes clear this same fact. Here we are told to consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful in all His house, not as a servant, but as a Son over His own house. Heb 3:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%203:1-6;&version=9;). Then we are told that we are His house if we hold fast our confidence to the end. Therefore we are exhorted by the Holy Spirit to hear His voice and not to harden our hearts, as the fathers did in the wilderness.

“For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?” Now with whom was He [Christ] angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?” Heb 3:14-17.

Here again Christ is set forth as the Leader and Commander of Israel in their forty years’ sojourn in the wilderness.

The same thing is shown in Josh. 5:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Josh%205:13-15;&version=9;), where we are told that the man whom Joshua saw by Jericho, having a sword drawn in his hand, in response to Joshua’s question, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?” said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” Indeed, no one will be found to dispute that Christ was the real Leader of Israel, although invisible.

Moses, the visible leader of Israel, “endured as seeing Him who is invisible.” Heb 11:27. It was Christ who commissioned Moses to go and deliver His people. Now read Exo 20:1-3:

“And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Exo 20:1-3

Who spoke these words? The One who brought them from Egypt. And who was the Leader of Israel from Egypt? It was Christ. Then who spoke the law from Mt. Sinai? It was Christ, the brightness of the Father’s glory and the express image of His Person, who is the manifestation of God to man. It was the Creator of all created things and the One to whom all judgment has been committed.

This point may be proved in another way. When the Lord comes, it will be “with a shout” (1 Thess. 4:16), which will pierce the tombs and arouse the dead (John 5:28, 29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:28,%2029;&version=9;)).

“The LORD will roar from on high, and utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise will come to the ends of the earth--for the LORD has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the LORD.” Jer. 25:30, 31

Comparing this with Rev. 19:11-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%2019:11-21;&version=9;), where Christ as the Leader of the armies of heaven, the Word of God, King of kings, and Lord of lords, goes forth to tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God, destroying all the wicked, we find that it is Christ who roars from His habitation against all the inhabitants of the earth, when He has His controversy with the nations. Joel adds another point, when he says, “The LORD also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake.” Joel 3:16.

From these texts, to which others might be added, we learn that in connection with the coming of the Lord to deliver His people, He speaks with a voice that shakes the earth and the heavens – “the earth shall reel to and from like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut” (Isa. 24:20), and “the heavens will pass away with a great noise” (2 Peter 3:10). Now read Heb. 12:25, 26:

“See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Heb. 12:25, 26

The time when the Voice speaking on earth shook the earth was when the law was spoken from Sinai (Ex. 19:18-20; Heb. 12:18-20 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Ex.+19:18-20;+Heb.+12:18-+20&x=14&y=4)), an event that for awfulness has never had a parallel and never will have until the Lord comes with all the angels of heaven to save His people. But note: The same voice that then shook the earth will, in the coming time, shake not only earth, but heaven also, and we have seen that it is the voice of Christ that will sound with such volume as to shake heaven and earth when He has His controversy with the nations. Therefore it is demonstrated that it was the voice of Christ that was heard from Sinai, proclaiming the Ten Commandments. This is no more than would naturally be concluded from what we have learned concerning Christ as Creator. That is why He said He is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:27, 28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%202:27,%2028;&version=9;)). Indeed, the fact that Christ is a part of the Godhead, possessing all the attributes of Divinity, being the equal of the Father in all respects, as Creator and Lawgiver, is the only force there is in the atonement. It is this alone which makes redemption a possibility.

The focus therefore on Israel after the flesh is a distortion of the gospel, and in the next post I will elaborate more with Christ and Abraham.

Maintan a Christ-Centred Focus!!


To maintain a Christ-Centered Focus you also need to believe every word (and every promise) He has spoken with regard to His people the Jews. To say that Jesus has become Israel is a gross distortion of Scripture. You didn't say a single thing about Zechariah 12.

Tom

wpm
Apr 24th 2006, 10:10 PM
I doubt whether you realize it but you are starting to talk a lot of nonsense.

You are fighting with Scripture. You are making a people that reject God's only provision for sin God's chosen people.

Jesus said, in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”


I am not defending Israel. I am defending God’s honor and his promises to Israel which you seem to despise.

No you are defending Darby's writings.

Paul

moonglow
Apr 24th 2006, 10:29 PM
...but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

People seem to be missing that part of the verse for some reason...

I do not see God forcing Himself on those that reject Him, regardless of who they are. They rejected Jesus (most but not all)...its not God pulling back on any promises...they did....all who reject Him.

7Trumpets
Apr 25th 2006, 12:43 AM
This piece shows that all the Old Testament people knew about the gospel; it was the gospel of Christ; there is only one gospel and that all are saved by the grace of God through faith in the Redeemer - the Lamb of God.

To focus on the children of Jacob as if they have some inherent quality is a way-out and deadly distraction that leads to most of the current problems in the Middle East. Modern dispensationalists are like the crusaders. They stir up the wrath of Islam and lead to hatred of Christians making the gospel harder to preach to a group of people who dearly need the gospel.

If they would just teach that Islams, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and all others have an equal need for the grace of God; that they have equal access to God's love and provisions, there would be less tension and more disciples of Christ.

The Everlasting Gospel
Revelation 14:6-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014:6-12&version=9) shows three angels flying in the midst of heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach to the entire world. Only one church identifies this message as their core mission, and has been preaching these messages for a while, but they are to be preached more fully.

The great three fold message of Revelation 14 is designed especially to prepare a people for the coming of Jesus. It reveals God's plans for His people and we SHOULD know that the purpose of the great three-fold message is to present the truths which will prepare the people who will meet Jesus in peace when He comes. God does not want to destroy anyone (2 Peter 3:9; 1 Timothy 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:9;%201%20Timothy%202:4;&version=9;)), but that all should come to repentance and be saved.

Recently, I came across a curious phrase that has held my attention and fascination since. “Hanging upon the cross Christ was the gospel.” Hanging upon the cross Christ was the gospel: This so curious, so profound, so significant a statement, that I have decided to revisit the three angels’ message (Rev 14:6-12) as a gospel message, rather than a prophecy message. It is the everlasting gospel.

The name everlasting implies it has existed from all time, and will continue to exist throughout all eternity. Let us examine the word gospel.

Q. What is the gospel?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16, 17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:17, 18

Notice the gospel is the power of God to save all who believe. [We already know we need to be saved, and that we cannot save ourselves. 1 Cor 1:17, 18] expands this statement to include the cross. Notice that the gospel is the power of God to save, and the preaching of the cross is the power of God to save, so the gospel is the preaching of the cross and it is the power to save ALL.

Q. To whom must the gospel be preached, according to the angels? Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people Revelation 14:6

Answer: All the world, and this is the same thing said by Jesus in Matt 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

Q. How can the gospel be everlasting if it was Jesus on the cross 2,000 years ago?

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Galatians 3:8
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

Answer: The gospel is everlasting, for here we learn that it was preached even to Abraham - the father of the nation of Israel (himself not a Jew nor Israelite). Note that since the gospel is glad tidings or good news, then Abraham was glad when he SAW it. The gospel was preached to Abraham not in just words,but in a manner that he could SEE it.

Q. What did Abraham see? What did Abraham hear? What promise was given to Abraham?

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16.
“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son” Hebrews 11:17;
“And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.” Genesis 22:2.
“And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.” Genesis 22:7, 8.

Answer: These passages thus confirm that the gospel was preached to Abraham and it was that the earth will be saved through his seed who was Christ. And since the gospel is Christ hanging on the cross, then Abraham saw the crucifixion. We know this is true for the Lord said to Abraham to take his only son and sacrifice him, and so God gave His only Son as a sacrifice to save all the world.

So much for those who teach that God saved by the law in the Old Testament, and by grace in the New Testament. Just a teaching to get rid of the law.

Read Genesis 22 and see the whole drama, and you will see that Abraham prophesied about the Lamb.

Hanging upon the cross Christ was the gospel.

Q. Did Adam and Eve know about this gospel?

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Genesis 3:15.
“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8.

Answer: Most certainly! When they sinned, the gospel was preached to them too and every woman thereafter hoped to be the woman from whom the Seed would come. In fact, Revelation 13:8 describes Jesus as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Thus from the foundation of the world there has been the everlasting gospel being preached to every generation that would listen.

Q. How many gospels have been preached since then?

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19

Answer: Galatians 1:6-9 teach emphatically that there has only been one gospel, and any one that teaches another will be accursed. The gospel appears in Revelation 14:6-12 and Rev 22:19 warns that anyone who teaches otherwise will be eternally lost. Woe to those therefore, who teach another gospel.

What does all this mean? It means that the giddy, distracting focus on Israel is all wrong. The focus should be on Jesus hanging on the cross. That is the gospel since it was preached in Eden and Adam and Eve were clothed in skins prepared by God since their fig leaves could not work. These skins were taken from slain lambs, symbolising Jesus, for lambs and other animals had no cleansing and saving power.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Heb 10:4

Furthermore, the covering of Adam and Eve by God was a symbol of Christ covering them in His righteousness

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. Isa 61:10

Our covering with fig leaves (our works) account to nothing. These are like filthy rags. Just as how leaves wither and fade, so to do these pretensious coverings fade.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isa 64:6

Therefore we have only ONE conclusion. The gospel was preached to Adam and Eve; it was preached to Enoch (Heb 11:5; Jude 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%2011:5;%20Jude%201:14;&version=9;)) who had that faith in Christ and even prophesied about His second Advent. It was preached to Abraham and all the promises given to the entire line of faithful find their fulfillment in Christ.

For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 2 Cor 1:20
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16

Read these carefully. For even when you think they should apply to the biological seed of Jacob, the true fulfillment is in Christ. Our challenge is to use this basis to explain BOTH Old and New Testament in light of the clear teachings presented here.

Some passages of Scripture are not as clear, and we should not resort to the Old Testament alone, neither to the New Testament alone, but to both and search the Scriptures carefully.

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. Deu 19:15
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Matt 18:16
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Cor 13:1

Both testify of Christ; the Holy Spirit, who inspired the Bible writes testifies of Christ; the Apostles testified of Christ and that is where our eyes, heart, mind and soul should be. NOT ISRAEL OF THE MIDDLE EAST!

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26

Gw butler
Apr 25th 2006, 01:01 AM
Get people to understand


I know I aint supposed to post, but
I wanted to show you wpm what is really going to happen, from the book of Micah, and I will cease after this, may God bless you with understanding.


4:1 (http://bibleforums.org/) But in the latter days,
it will happen that the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established on the top of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills; and peoples will stream to it. cb(4,2);4:2 (http://bibleforums.org/) Many nations will go and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion will go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem; cb(4,3);4:3 (http://bibleforums.org/) and he will judge between many peoples, and will decide concerning strong nations afar off. They will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war any more. cb(4,4);4:4 (http://bibleforums.org/) But they will sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and no one will make them afraid: For the mouth of the LORD of Hosts has spoken.cb(4,5); 4:5 (http://bibleforums.org/) Indeed all the nations may walk in the name of their gods; but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever and ever. cb(4,6);4:6 (http://bibleforums.org/) “In that day,” says the LORD, “I will assemble that which is lame, and I will gather that which is driven away, and that which I have afflicted; cb(4,7);4:7 (http://bibleforums.org/) and I will make that which was lame a remnant, and that which was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD will reign over them on Mount Zion from then on, even forever.”


Ezekiel 37 v 21-28
Verse 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Verse 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
Verse 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Verse 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Verse 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince forever.
Verse 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Verse 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Verse 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


Long ago God also promised, "The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety" (Jeremiah 23:5-6, NRSV).
The restoration of all of the tribes of Israel as one nation under the reign of the Messiah is foretold over and over again in the writings of the prophets.
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again"'" (Ezekiel 37:21-22).
"Now therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city [Jerusalem] of which you say, 'It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence': 'Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. They shall be My people, and I will be their God; then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever . . .'" (Jeremiah 32:36-39).
Since Christ will establish Jerusalem as His capital, the first people to experience the effects of His rule will be the restored kingdom of Israel. As their King, He will immediately establish a close working relationship with them. "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst . . . Indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary

CFJ
Apr 25th 2006, 08:48 AM
Come on wpm. Get your head into gear. Chosen in the Bible is never unto salvation but unto service and blessing.

C'mon Tom, really??? What is the sense of being chosen, when salvation is not part of it? The problem is not with your statement, because there is some truth in that statement, but with the word, never! Scripture tells a different story... "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 1:4 KJV). Who are the chosen ones in this passage and why should "we" be holy and without blame before Him in love?

Tom Lessing
Apr 25th 2006, 09:11 AM
C'mon Tom, really??? What is the sense of being chosen, when salvation is not part of it? The problem is not with your statement, because there is some truth in that statement, but with the word, never! Scripture tells a different story... "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Eph 1:4 KJV). Who are the chosen ones in this passage and why should "we" be holy and without blame before Him in love?

You know very well that I abhor the doctrine of predestination unto salvation and predestination unto everlasting perdition as well as the outlandish notion that man has no free-will of his own. It not only dishonors God but misrepresents Him as the God Who said He IS love. Your understandiing of Ephesians 1:4 is obviously clouded by your prejudiced and preconditioned belief that God saves only an elect few (of which you seem to be one) and damns the rest to eternal destruction, even to the extent that you have changed "world" in John 3:16 to "elect." There are several places in the Old Testament where God says He has chosen Israel (unto service and blessing) for His Name's sake, but I do not expect you to understand that.

Tom

wpm
Apr 25th 2006, 09:32 AM
You know very well that I abhor the doctrine of predestination unto salvation and predestination unto everlasting perdition as well as the outlandish notion that man has no free-will of his own. It not only dishonors God but misrepresents Him as the God Who said He IS love. Your understandiing of Ephesians 1:4 is obviously clouded by your prejudiced and preconditioned belief that God saves only an elect few (of which you seem to be one) and damns the rest to eternal destruction, even to the extent that you have changed "world" in John 3:16 to "elect." There are several places in the Old Testament where God says He has chosen Israel (unto service and blessing) for His Name's sake, but I do not expect you to understand that.

Tom

Your big issue seems to constantly be with scriptural terminologies rather than the various posters on this board . Please read and simply believe. Stop trying to fight with Scripture.

Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

Romans 8:29-30 says, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

Take your issue up with the Holy Spirit - He put these there.

Finally, man does have a free will - to sin. He does not have a free will to come to God.


Jesus said in John 6:44, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Paul

Tom Lessing
Apr 25th 2006, 11:01 AM
Your big issue seems to constantly be with scriptural terminologies rather than the various posters on this board . Please read and simply believe. Stop trying to fight with Scripture.

Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

Romans 8:29-30 says, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

Take your issue up with the Holy Spirit - He put these there.

Finally, man does have a free will - to sin. He does not have a free will to come to God.


Jesus said in John 6:44, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Paul



Don't you and CFJ find it rather strange that Calvinists defend God's sovereignty tooth and nail when it comes to the election of a Gentile, when God irresistibly saves him without him having to believe (because faith is supposedly a "work" and works cannot save), but vociferously defy God’s sovereignty in His choice of Israel as His peculiar people? Isn’t that called double standards?

You will agree that all of Scripture MUST agree with all of Scripture which means that the slightest contradiction will cause one to doubt the validity and inerrancy of Scripture. Let’s for arguments sake take John 3: 16 which clearly says “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” and Revelation 22: 17 which says “whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” For Ephesians 1: 3, 6 and 11, John 8:29, 30 and John 6: 44 to harmonize completely with John 3: 16 and Revelation 22:17 those passages would have to mean something totally different from what you propose and intend it to mean. Tragically, Calvinists have distorted the meaning of “whosoever’ and “world” so that it may fit into their mold of foreknowledge, election, predestination and salvation with the result that they defy and reject the Holy Spirit’s intended meaning of those verses. Could it be that the Holy Spirit had no inkling or clue what “whosoever” and “world” means and that the world needed a man like Calvin to explain its “true” meaning?

Whys is it so difficult for you and CFJ to understand the simplest meaning of Ephesians 1:3.6 and 11, Romans 8:29, 30 and John 6: 44?

God in His awesome omniscience knew before the foundation of the earth who, when convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment, would willingly respond to His Gospel, believe and take the Water of Life freely.
On the basis of that FOREKNOWLEDGE (OMNISCIENCE) He predestined and elected those particular persons to special blessing — i.e. to be conformed to the image of His Son, to live in obedience before Him and to be holy and without blame before Him in love.
Therefore the object of election and predestination is not salvation but conformity to the image of His Son.
The word “kai” (also) clearly separates predestination from salvation (in its “call,” “justification,” and “glorification”). “Predestination simply means that God has predetermined that those who respond affirmatively to His call, will be justified and furthermore will be glorified.” (Herschel H. Hobbs, Fundamentals of our Faith, pp. 94-99)

Can you and CFJ honestly and with a clear conscience say that your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3, 6 and 11, Romans 8: 29, 30 and John 6: 44 do not clash with John 3:16 and Revelation 22: 17 and many other similar verses in Scripture? By the way I advise you not to quote only one verse while the explanation thereof may be found in another verse. In John 12: 32 Jesus said “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” To use your own words “Stop trying to fight with Scripture,” I would like to add “pay your respects to and honor God’s perfectly harmonized Word.”

Tom

Gw butler
Apr 25th 2006, 11:46 AM
So til I do I am gonna post and say whats true. Those like wpm, David and others fail to see what happens to Israel because they think they, or their church system is Israel. Another thing that keeps popping up is this Darby fellow. Darby dosent and dont have a clue. He says the Rapture will occur, but there is no such word in the entire Bible. Its nothing more than Doctrine accepted by nearly everyone, Doctrine that is in error. Those who are saved will be in the kingdom, but if there is a rapture it will be when the two witness are told to come up, which means that Christians will have to go thru the first three and one half years of the trib just like everyone else. Israel, to the horror of Christians who dont understand the Bible are Gods people, that he will choose again and save them from their sins. Gods plan isnt mans plan, and this disturbs them no end. The fact that Israel will be saved goes against all they are taught, but it is what the Bible says all over the old, and one place in the new that is denied. I may not be liked herein, but from what I keep reading neither is the word of God. In order to believe God, you must believe what he has said, if you dont you dont really know whats coming. You make doctrinal guesses, guesses that arent Biblically sound. You also cant pick and choose the texts you like. And therein lies the real problem.

CFJ
Apr 25th 2006, 12:17 PM
Finally, man does have a free will - to sin. He does not have a free will to come to God.



Exactly my believe, but I don't want to get deeper into that subject right now, lets rather focus on the subject of this thread. :)

wpm
Apr 25th 2006, 12:44 PM
Don't you and CFJ find it rather strange that Calvinists defend God's sovereignty tooth and nail when it comes to the election of a Gentile, when God irresistibly saves him without him having to believe (because faith is supposedly a "work" and works cannot save), but vociferously defy God’s sovereignty in His choice of Israel as His peculiar people? Isn’t that called double standards?

You will agree that all of Scripture MUST agree with all of Scripture which means that the slightest contradiction will cause one to doubt the validity and inerrancy of Scripture. Let’s for arguments sake take John 3: 16 which clearly says “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” and Revelation 22: 17 which says “whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” For Ephesians 1: 3, 6 and 11, John 8:29, 30 and John 6: 44 to harmonize completely with John 3: 16 and Revelation 22:17 those passages would have to mean something totally different from what you propose and intend it to mean. Tragically, Calvinists have distorted the meaning of “whosoever’ and “world” so that it may fit into their mold of foreknowledge, election, predestination and salvation with the result that they defy and reject the Holy Spirit’s intended meaning of those verses. Could it be that the Holy Spirit had no inkling or clue what “whosoever” and “world” means and that the world needed a man like Calvin to explain its “true” meaning?

Whys is it so difficult for you and CFJ to understand the simplest meaning of Ephesians 1:3.6 and 11, Romans 8:29, 30 and John 6: 44?

God in His awesome omniscience knew before the foundation of the earth who, when convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment, would willingly respond to His Gospel, believe and take the Water of Life freely.
On the basis of that FOREKNOWLEDGE (OMNISCIENCE) He predestined and elected those particular persons to special blessing — i.e. to be conformed to the image of His Son, to live in obedience before Him and to be holy and without blame before Him in love.
Therefore the object of election and predestination is not salvation but conformity to the image of His Son.
The word “kai” (also) clearly separates predestination from salvation (in its “call,” “justification,” and “glorification”). “Predestination simply means that God has predetermined that those who respond affirmatively to His call, will be justified and furthermore will be glorified.” (Herschel H. Hobbs, Fundamentals of our Faith, pp. 94-99)Can you and CFJ honestly and with a clear conscience say that your interpretation of Ephesians 1:3, 6 and 11, Romans 8: 29, 30 and John 6: 44 do not clash with John 3:16 and Revelation 22: 17 and many other similar verses in Scripture? By the way I advise you not to quote only one verse while the explanation thereof may be found in another verse. In John 12: 32 Jesus said “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” To use your own words “Stop trying to fight with Scripture,” I would like to add “pay your respects to and honor God’s perfectly harmonized Word.”

Tom

You can give me what ever title you wish. I just simply accept what Christ defines a chosen vessel to be, not how you wrongly define one. Moreover, the title I wear is sinner saved by grace.

You are actually inventing a second chosen people today outside of those that are included in the passages I quote. You invent a second (or probably they are your first) chosen people - who don't need to come by way of the Cross. They can reject Christ and still be God's chosen people. That is in clear violation to Scripture.

Peter declared onto the unbelieving Jews in Acts 4:10-12, “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Christ is the only way of gaining favour with God.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks,“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 5:10-12 “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

II John 1:9-10 says, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction.

Paul

Gw butler
Apr 25th 2006, 12:54 PM
Was ordaned that Israel would not recognise who Jesus was and is. By this occuring you have the chance for salvation, which was the real mission of the Messiah to begin with. You are adopted, but Israel will be saved, why? Because your God tells you so in the Bible. When all the Gentiles that will be saved have come in Israel will be saved. To deny this Biblical fact is to deny the word of God.

Tom Lessing
Apr 25th 2006, 12:56 PM
Exactly my believe, but I don't want to get deeper into that subject right now, lets rather focus on the subject of this thread. :)

So what you are in effect saying is that Revelation 22: 17 is a load of nonsense.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 25th 2006, 01:04 PM
Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction.

So be it and I agree, but God is not finished with His chosen people the Jews.

Tom

CFJ
Apr 25th 2006, 01:15 PM
So what you are in effect saying is that Revelation 22: 17 is a load of nonsense.

Tom

Nonsense must be defined... if God is working through you, then Revelation 22:17 will make you believe that all the glory should be God's, but if you choose yourself out of your own selfish free-will, it will make you believe that you can also claim a little piece of the glory, a religion of works..., but lets rather not use this thread to discuss free-will. You are open to start a new thread. :)

Tom Lessing
Apr 25th 2006, 01:18 PM
This piece shows that all the Old Testament people knew about the gospel; it was the gospel of Christ; there is only one gospel and that all are saved by the grace of God through faith in the Redeemer - the Lamb of God.

To focus on the children of Jacob as if they have some inherent quality is a way-out and deadly distraction that leads to most of the current problems in the Middle East. Modern dispensationalists are like the crusaders. They stir up the wrath of Islam and lead to hatred of Christians making the gospel harder to preach to a group of people who dearly need the gospel.

Watch your sharp tongue! You are saying things that are way off limits with Scripture for which you will have to give an account to God one day.

To focus on the children of Jacob as if they have some inherent quality is a way-out and deadly distraction . . .

You are either willfully blind or you have been blinded to the truth because you willfully reject the truth. No one ever said or even implied that the children of Jacob have some kind of inherent quality that makes them any better than anyone else. You, like all the others, have consistently and conveniently ignored Old Testament prophecies which deal with the children of Jacob. Was God lying when He said?:

For My name's sake I defer My anger, and for the sake of My praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried and chosen you in the furnace of affliction. For My own sake, for My own sake, I do it [I refrain and do not utterly destroy you]; for why should I permit My name to be polluted and profaned [which it would be if the Lord completely destroyed His chosen people]? And I will not give My glory to another [by permitting the worshipers of idols to triumph over you]. Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called [ones]: I am He; I am the First, I also am the Last. Yes, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together [to execute My decrees]. (Isaiah 48:9-15)
Now try to focus on God’s words and not your own bland interpretation of the present problems in the Middle East. Have you noticed that the words “for my Name’s sake” appear no less that three times and “for the sake of My praise” (which conveys the same sentiment) appears once in this section? Do you know what that means? Probably not, but let me enlighten you, if I may. God has not rejected His chosen people (the children of Jacob) because His honor and glory is at stake and He will not allow His Name to be polluted or profaned by anyone . . . not by you or any other self-proclaimed prophet who believes that God has already fulfilled all His promises to His chosen, the children of Jacob.

Have you noticed the words, “I have tried and chosen you in the furnace of affliction?” Despite the fact that the children of Jacob are presently in unbelief in their own country and in furnace of affliction, mainly because of their willful rejection of Christ, God still calls them His chosen. In the next Scripture God promises that a time will come when the entire house of Israel will worship and serve Him on His holy mount in Jerusalem . . . once again “for His Name’s sake.”

As for you, O house of Israel, thus says the Lord God: Go, serve every one of you his idols, now and hereafter, if you will not listen to Me! But you shall not profane My holy name any more with your sacrificial gifts and your idols! For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel, says the Lord God, there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me. There will I [graciously] accept them, and there will I require your offerings and the firstfruits and the choicest of your contributions, with all your sacred things. I will accept you [graciously] as a pleasant odor when I lead you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries in which you have been scattered, and I will manifest My holiness among you in the sight of the nations [who will seek Me because of My power displayed in you]. And you shall know, understand, and realize that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country which I lifted up My hand and swore to give to your fathers. And there you shall [earnestly] remember your ways and all your doings with which you have defiled yourselves, and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for all your evil deeds which you have done. And you shall know, understand, and realize that I am the Lord, when I deal with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel, says the Lord God. (Ezekiel 20:39-44)
Not once did God say He chose the house of Jacob because they were intrinsically valued above all the other nations. It is for His sake and His sake alone that God sovereignly chose them.


. . . that leads to most of the current problems in the Middle East.

This is another of your bold statements that need to be scrutinized in the light of God’s word. To say that the focus on the children of Jacob has caused all the current problems in the Middle East is not only pathetic but glaringly exposes your ignorance of Bible prophecy. God said:

Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. (Zechariah 12: 2, 3)
Notice the words “I will make.” Does that make God a Dispensationalist, bearing in mind that He Himself is making the Middle East a cup of trembling?


Modern dispensationalists are like the crusaders.

Calling someone a Fascist, Communist, bigot and similar words have become a masterful way of discrediting someone without really addressing the issues at hand. That’s just plain bad manners. Calling anyone “like a Crusader” borders on “crimen injuria” and once again I would like to warn you to watch your sharp tongue. How odd of you to liken Dispensationalists who are the real champions of God’s cause in Israel’s future to the Crusaders while they (the Crusaders) massacred, murdered, butchered and hacked to death many Jews under the banner of Christianity. You are in effect saying that Dispensationalists aren’t Christians but charlatans who act like the Crusaders.


They stir up the wrath of Islam and lead to hatred of Christians making the gospel harder to preach to a group of people who dearly need the gospel.

What utter nonsense. Are you really so naïve as to think that a doctrine is stirring up the wrath of Islam? Hatred of the Jews is the one and only motive behind Islam’s objective to exterminate the Jews from the face of the earth. Their hatred has lasted more than thirteen hundred years, long before Dispensationalism came into existence. The UN and EU have continually condemned Israel for defending herself against those who want to exterminate her from the face of the earth. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that the hatred of the Jews ended with Hitler (already in hell for more than sixty years and an eternity still awaits him). It is escalating and the disturbing thing about it all is that evangelical Christians are boarding this train of hatred in a more subtle but very dangerous way. They use the Gospel to refute and deny God’s immutable promises to them. I find it very distasteful that you should blandly and wrongfully accuse Dispensationlists of being like the Crusaders and then sanctimoniously and piously present the everlasting Gospel.

Tom

Tom Lessing
Apr 25th 2006, 01:45 PM
Nonsense must be defined... if God is working through you, then Revelation 22:17 will make you believe that all the glory should be God's, but if you choose yourself out of your own selfish free-will, it will make you believe that you can also claim a little piece of the glory, a religion of works..., but lets rather not use this thread to discuss free-will. You are open to start a new thread. :)

CFJ, the simple question you need to answer is, who is the "whosoever" and what does "will" mean in Revelation 22:17 I am not taking the glory away from God and neither am I promoting a works religion. In fact, I am glorifying God who gave you, myself and every human being on this planet a free-will to either choose or to reject Christ because we were made in the image of God. To make man a automaton with no will of his own is more dishonoring to God and does not glorify Him.

Tom

CFJ
Apr 25th 2006, 02:15 PM
CFJ, the simple question you need to answer is, who is the "whosoever" and what does "will" mean in Revelation 22:17 I am not taking the glory away from God and neither am I promoting a works religion. In fact, I am glorifying God who gave you, myself and every human being on this planet a free-will to either choose or to reject Christ because we were made in the image of God. To make man a automaton with no will of his own is more dishonoring to God and does not glorify Him.

Tom

Tom,

I'm just a simple fallible human being, it is possible that I'm just not able to see the truth you claim, but reality have learn me the following. In simple terms I've learned that my will and my own actions was always destructive, however, when the self dies and there was spontaneous reactions or even inspired actions, I've been able to see God's will in that most of the time. For me, it seems to be that if I truly focus on Jesus, then my mind forget about the self-will. "..., and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come." (1Ti 4:7-8 KJV) Godliness comes natural if you are trained therein...


I cannot find free-will within myself that's able to do the things free-willers claim... I just can't, and that is the honest truth from my point of view. Tom, lets focus on the topic of this thread please... :pray: :)

John146
Apr 25th 2006, 02:20 PM
CFJ, the simple question you need to answer is, who is the "whosoever" and what does "will" mean in Revelation 22:17 I am not taking the glory away from God and neither am I promoting a works religion. In fact, I am glorifying God who gave you, myself and every human being on this planet a free-will to either choose or to reject Christ because we were made in the image of God. To make man a automaton with no will of his own is more dishonoring to God and does not glorify Him.

Tom

I agree with this. God calls all people to Himself but most do not answer the call.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Everyone has the free will to choose who they will serve:

14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:14-15

We have the free will to accept God's offer of salvation through Jesus Christ as He is standing at the door of our hearts:

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. - Matthew 7:7-8 (NIV)

7Trumpets
Apr 25th 2006, 04:20 PM
Tom,

You fail to see that Israel in the Old Testament was chosen for a SPECIFIC purpose, and once that purpose is accomplished, and once Israel rejected God, then by their FREE WILL (which you and I agree on, but that should be in another thread) God has to use another medium.

For My Name's Sake
You are right, Tom, God chose Israel for His name's sake. He also chose Paul for His name's sake (Acts 9:16); the Apostles were hated for His name's sake (Luke 21:17) and the church of Ephesus laboured for His name's sake (Rev 2:3).

Now Paul and the Apostles were of Israel so no big deal, but the Church at Ephesus?

The Call
Galatians tells us clearly that when God called Abraham (out of Ur of the Chaldees - Babylon) it was to BLESS THE WHOLE EARTH THROUGH CHRIST! Abraham's call was not to bless a single nation. Nevertheless, in order to preserve the royal line through Abraham, Israel had to be protected.

God "Remembers"

And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. Exo 2:24

After being held as slaves in Egypt, God remembers His covenant with the fathers and visited and delivered His people - Israel His firstborn - His one-of-a-kind.

Now what was the charge laid on them:

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exo 19:5, 6

As you clearly see, the children of Israel were chosen to be a

pecuilar people
kingdom of priests
holy nation

Why? For His name's sake. And what is His name?

And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exo 34:4-7

The name of the Lord is His character or glory. All this is in response to the calf orship; the breaking of the Ten Commandments and Moses asking God to show Him His glory.

And he [Moses] said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. Exo 33:18, 19

This is too deep a lesson to go into, but the long and short of it is that it goes back to the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:15) and the promise (covenant) made to Adam and Eve about the seed of the woman. This was the same covenant made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and this was the same covenant being renewed with the children of Israel.

What is different is that at each renewal, MORE DETAIL IS BEING REVEALED!

Nevertheless, Tom, what you must realise, is that God's name, His glory, His character is seen in NONE ELSE BUT CHRIST.

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him Exo 23:20, 21
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

No Other King

Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. Deu 17:15

Part of the covenant with Israel was that no king but one of their own. Thus from Saul, then David and his seed was the royal line preserved. When Jesus, the true King of Israel appeared, they rejected Him.

But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. John 19:15

This, Tom, you must ponder very carefully, for this is the rejection of the covenant. God did not reject Israel, Israel rejected God; God did not replace true Israel; for Jesus is true Israel. Jesus is Prince with God; Jesus is overcomer; Jesus will reign with God.

Jesus is the Saviour of the world, according to the covenant of mercy and grace first made with Adam and Eve, and when the Jews would have none of it, the Christian church (started by Jews) continued with the programme.

I am not anti-semitic, for Jesus and the first New Testament church was Jewish, and also I am no better than any single individual in this earth. But the Scripture says Jesus came to establish the new covenant (which is no different from the old except by the promises and the place itwas written).

The church of the New Testament took over where Israel after the flesh failed.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet 2:9, 10

Notice

peculiar people
chosen generation
royal priesthood
holy nation

Do you see Sinai here again? Can you understand the BIG picture? Do you see that the church is "now the people of God"

Why do we call the people of Israel this now? It is a clear violation of Scripture!

Gw butler
Apr 25th 2006, 04:27 PM
The chosen people of God? Biblically thats exactly who they are, not Gentiles, nor Christians for that matter. All Gentile Christians are adopted into Israel, not the other way round.

David Taylor
Apr 25th 2006, 05:06 PM
That's what they are? The chosen people of God? Biblically thats exactly who they are, not Gentiles, nor Christians for that matter.

John 8:37 "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with My Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. "

I John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"

II John 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God"

I John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father"

I John 5:10 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Gw butler
Apr 25th 2006, 05:47 PM
Job quoting scripture David, problem is you only quote those that agree with your view, omiting those that say who and what Israels future really is. Plus you never reply to scripture that flat out disputes what you say. What is it? are you afraid God really means what he says? Or dosent? If you believe he means it, Israel becomes a much different picture than the one you have in your minds eye. Problem is, it kind of makes a mess out of most Church doctrine dont it? Could that be your major problem? Truth is, the Churchs view about Israel, their fate and that of the Church is in error. Bottom line, and I know thats hard to take isnt it? Why I have no idea if one really believes in the Master of the universe and what his word really says.

Tom Lessing
Apr 25th 2006, 06:22 PM
Tom,

You fail to see that Israel in the Old Testament was chosen for a SPECIFIC purpose, and once that purpose is accomplished, and once Israel rejected God, then by their FREE WILL (which you and I agree on, but that should be in another thread) God has to use another medium.

For My Name's Sake
You are right, Tom, God chose Israel for His name's sake. He also chose Paul for His name's sake (Acts 9:16); the Apostles were hated for His name's sake (Luke 21:17) and the church of Ephesus laboured for His name's sake (Rev 2:3).

Now Paul and the Apostles were of Israel so no big deal, but the Church at Ephesus?

The Call
Galatians tells us clearly that when God called Abraham (out of Ur of the Chaldees - Babylon) it was to BLESS THE WHOLE EARTH THROUGH CHRIST! Abraham's call was not to bless a single nation. Nevertheless, in order to preserve the royal line through Abraham, Israel had to be protected.

God "Remembers"

And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. Exo 2:24

After being held as slaves in Egypt, God remembers His covenant with the fathers and visited and delivered His people - Israel His firstborn - His one-of-a-kind.

Now what was the charge laid on them:

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exo 19:5, 6

As you clearly see, the children of Israel were chosen to be a

pecuilar people
kingdom of priests
holy nation

Why? For His name's sake. And what is His name?

And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exo 34:4-7

The name of the Lord is His character or glory. All this is in response to the calf orship; the breaking of the Ten Commandments and Moses asking God to show Him His glory.

And he [Moses] said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. Exo 33:18, 19

This is too deep a lesson to go into, but the long and short of it is that it goes back to the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:15) and the promise (covenant) made to Adam and Eve about the seed of the woman. This was the same covenant made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and this was the same covenant being renewed with the children of Israel.

What is different is that at each renewal, MORE DETAIL IS BEING REVEALED!

Nevertheless, Tom, what you must realise, is that God's name, His glory, His character is seen in NONE ELSE BUT CHRIST.

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him Exo 23:20, 21
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

No Other King

Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. Deu 17:15

Part of the covenant with Israel was that no king but one of their own. Thus from Saul, then David and his seed was the royal line preserved. When Jesus, the true King of Israel appeared, they rejected Him.

But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. John 19:15

This, Tom, you must ponder very carefully, for this is the rejection of the covenant. God did not reject Israel, Israel rejected God; God did not replace true Israel; for Jesus is true Israel. Jesus is Prince with God; Jesus is overcomer; Jesus will reign with God.

Jesus is the Saviour of the world, according to the covenant of mercy and grace first made with Adam and Eve, and when the Jews would have none of it, the Christian church (started by Jews) continued with the programme.

I am not anti-semitic, for Jesus and the first New Testament church was Jewish, and also I am no better than any single individual in this earth. But the Scripture says Jesus came to establish the new covenant (which is no different from the old except by the promises and the place itwas written).

The church of the New Testament took over where Israel after the flesh failed.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet 2:9, 10

Notice

peculiar people
chosen generation
royal priesthood
holy nation

Do you see Sinai here again? Can you understand the BIG picture? Do you see that the church is "now the people of God"

Why do we call the people of Israel this now? It is a clear violation of Scripture!

You have an uncanny aptitude to avoid the Scriptures I quoted and not to comment on them specifically. You then jump from one Scripture to another, weaving them together so as to divert the attention from the Old Testament prophecies I quoted.

You say it is a clear violation of Scripture to call the children of Jacob “Israel.” God doesn’t seem to agree with you for His promises to them are irrevocable and immutable.

We must bear in mind that a promise of God is a prophecy fulfilled the moment it is given even though it may take thousands of years before it is actually fulfilled. Had this not been true Almighty God would have been guilty of His own indictment of false prophets in Deuteronomy 18: 22, “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” Numbers 23 : 19 teaches very clearly that God is not a man that He should lie and He always brings to fruition His promises. Therefore, we can be sure that God will fulfill all His promises with regard to His people. How is He going to do it? Although it is not and never will be God’s will that the Gentile nations hate and treat the Jews with contempt, (believe it or not, some Gentile Christians believe the very opposite), He is going to use the world-wide anti-Semitism and hatred of the Jews to draw the nations to the valley of Jehosaphat where He is going to judge them with His sword of righteousness. Listen to what he says in Isaiah 45:

”For I, the Lord your God, hold your right hand; I, Who say to you, Fear not, I will help you! Fear not, you worm of Jacob, you men of Israel! I will help you, says the Lord; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. Behold, I will make you to be a new, sharp, threshing instrument having teeth; you shall thresh the mountains and beat them small, and shall make the hills as chaff. You shall winnow them and the wind shall carry them away, and the tempest or whirlwind shall scatter them. And you shall rejoice in the Lord, you shall glory in the Holy One of Israel.”

Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations to which they have gone, and will [a]gather them from every side and bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, neither be divided into two kingdoms any more. They shall not defile themselves any more with their idols and their detestable things or with any of their transgressions, but I will save them out of all their dwelling places and from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them. So shall they be My people, and I will be their God. And David My Servant shall be King over them, and they all shall have one Shepherd. They shall also walk in My ordinances and heed My statutes and do them. They shall dwell in the land in which your fathers dwelt, that I gave to My servant Jacob, and they shall dwell there, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My Servant David shall be their Prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, and I will give blessings to them and multiply them and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. My tabernacle or dwelling place also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Then the nations shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord do set apart and consecrate Israel for holy use, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forevermore.
Joel 3; 2 says:

“I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.”

God is assuredly going to do what He said He will with regard to His people, the children of Jacob, whether you or anyone else on this board believes it or not . . . and with that I close my case.

Tom

7Trumpets
Apr 26th 2006, 01:14 AM
Dear Tom,

I will refer you to the post I made in identifying Israel.

An important principle in the Bible is that a name implies CHARACTER. Before there was Israel, there was Jacob.

Jacob was a heel, a heel catcher, a supplanter, a deceiver, etc. After he overcame his sinful ways by confessing them amid sorrow for his sins, he struggled with God and was named Israel.

All sinners are symbolically Jacob, needing to be Israel to be saved. Although the stories in the Old Testament are real, they are written primarily not as history to be continued, but as spiritual lessons for us.

Proof: 1 Corinthians 10

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Here we see that Paul briefly reviewed the history of the Exodus and stated quite clearly that these were written for examples to us.

The example of LITERAL Israel leaving Egypt to travel to the promised Land is the SPIRITUAL example of us leaving sin and travelling to the New Jerusalem.

So must we not murmur
So must we not lust
So must we not tempt Christ
So must we not be idolatrous
So must we not fornicate
and so on

You cannot go back to promises that were made in the Old Testament (because they appear unfulfilled) and apply them to LITERAL Israel. All things were written for OUR examples. We must learn from their experience and not make the same blunders.

Israel is an overcomer and the promises apply to those who overcome their sins:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 1 John 2:13
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 1 John 2:14
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:4
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Rev 2:17
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Rev 2:26
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:5
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Rev 3:12
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:7


Study these and you see they apply to Israel – Old and New. Just a few selections and comments


(1) Israel had tribulation. From the slavery in Egypt, going through the plagues, to attack by the Amalekites and more.

Israel got to know the Father as He took them through the wilderness (he who knows the Son knows the Father)

(6) Israel of the New Testament does not overcome if they reject Jesus as the Son of God

(10) Israel did not always have power over the nations. They were destroyed by Assyria and Babylon and ruled by Persia, Greece and Rome. Now the overcomers will have power over all nations when we reign with Christ

(12) The temple is no longer to be in Israel, but the overcomers become the temple of God. Yet many dispensationalists are looking for another temple in Israel. It just will not happen!!

(13) No kingdom and no throne to Israel of the flesh if they do not overcome. Yet you expect another kingdom.

(14) The overcomers inherit all things. This is what you are applying to the Israel of the flesh, but they have to be spiritual Israel – Israel of God to inherit.

You want to apply some old promises to Israel when that phase has passed. You repeatedly ignore the New Testament and its definition of Israel.
You fail to recognise that Israel is by definition an overcomer, chosen by God for a specific purpose
You fail to recognise that the sole purpose of Israel, in being given the promises, the covenant, the law, etc was to TESTIFY OF God' character and DELIVER the promised Seed who is Christ
You do not understand that God's name is in Jesus and so when He does things for His name's sake it was to let Jesus come into the world as promised.
You overlook the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan and waste a lot of energy with a people who will be saved if and when they accept Jesus just like everybody else (like Paul, John, Peter, James, Titus, Jude, Luke, etc). Such a people cannot be saved by any other means, especially if they reject the clear testimonies and proofs that Jesus is the Messiah.
You have been held captive by the teachings of Ribera, Irving, Darby, Schofield, La Haye, Jenkins and Lindsay, and ignore the teachings of Paul and Jesus.
Pray for the Israelis, but let go of any special treatment for them. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father; no one goes to heaven except by Jesus, from Adam to to last person.
The sooner the Jews know this the better for them.

Tom Lessing
Apr 26th 2006, 07:26 AM
Dear Tom,

I will refer you to the post I made in identifying Israel.

An important principle in the Bible is that a name implies CHARACTER. Before there was Israel, there was Jacob.

Jacob was a heel, a heel catcher, a supplanter, a deceiver, etc. After he overcame his sinful ways by confessing them amid sorrow for his sins, he struggled with God and was named Israel.

All sinners are symbolically Jacob, needing to be Israel to be saved. Although the stories in the Old Testament are real, they are written primarily not as history to be continued, but as spiritual lessons for us.

Proof: 1 Corinthians 10

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Here we see that Paul briefly reviewed the history of the Exodus and stated quite clearly that these were written for examples to us.

The example of LITERAL Israel leaving Egypt to travel to the promised Land is the SPIRITUAL example of us leaving sin and travelling to the New Jerusalem.

So must we not murmur
So must we not lust
So must we not tempt Christ
So must we not be idolatrous
So must we not fornicate
and so on

You cannot go back to promises that were made in the Old Testament (because they appear unfulfilled) and apply them to LITERAL Israel. All things were written for OUR examples. We must learn from their experience and not make the same blunders.

Israel is an overcomer and the promises apply to those who overcome their sins:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 1 John 2:13
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 1 John 2:14
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:4
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Rev 2:17
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Rev 2:26
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:5
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Rev 3:12
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:7


Study these and you see they apply to Israel – Old and New. Just a few selections and comments


(1) Israel had tribulation. From the slavery in Egypt, going through the plagues, to attack by the Amalekites and more.

Israel got to know the Father as He took them through the wilderness (he who knows the Son knows the Father)

(6) Israel of the New Testament does not overcome if they reject Jesus as the Son of God

(10) Israel did not always have power over the nations. They were destroyed by Assyria and Babylon and ruled by Persia, Greece and Rome. Now the overcomers will have power over all nations when we reign with Christ

(12) The temple is no longer to be in Israel, but the overcomers become the temple of God. Yet many dispensationalists are looking for another temple in Israel. It just will not happen!!

(13) No kingdom and no throne to Israel of the flesh if they do not overcome. Yet you expect another kingdom.

(14) The overcomers inherit all things. This is what you are applying to the Israel of the flesh, but they have to be spiritual Israel – Israel of God to inherit.

You want to apply some old promises to Israel when that phase has passed. You repeatedly ignore the New Testament and its definition of Israel.
You fail to recognise that Israel is by definition an overcomer, chosen by God for a specific purpose
You fail to recognise that the sole purpose of Israel, in being given the promises, the covenant, the law, etc was to TESTIFY OF God' character and DELIVER the promised Seed who is Christ
You do not understand that God's name is in Jesus and so when He does things for His name's sake it was to let Jesus come into the world as promised.
You overlook the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan and waste a lot of energy with a people who will be saved if and when they accept Jesus just like everybody else (like Paul, John, Peter, James, Titus, Jude, Luke, etc). Such a people cannot be saved by any other means, especially if they reject the clear testimonies and proofs that Jesus is the Messiah.
You have been held captive by the teachings of Ribera, Irving, Darby, Schofield, La Haye, Jenkins and Lindsay, and ignore the teachings of Paul and Jesus.
Pray for the Israelis, but let go of any special treatment for them. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father; no one goes to heaven except by Jesus, from Adam to to last person.
The sooner the Jews know this the better for them.


You are stretching the meaning of the word "example" too far. It simply means that we should take heed not to fall into the same sins they had in the Old Testament because God will not allow anyone to go unpunished who are guilty of the same sins. it does not mean that Jesus or the saved Gentiles have literally become the New Israel.

I am ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ and Paul? Aren't you doing just that? Once again you are ignoring to comment on the Old testament prophecies I quoted for you

JESUS CHRIST SAID: And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
He was not referring to the New Covenant but the covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their physical descendants in Genesis 17: 8

And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
If you are one of the New Israel, when are you going to move to "all the land of Canaan" to possess it as an everlasting possession. Oh! I know you will spiritualize it so that it may fit your doctrine, but that is and has always been untenable.

PAUL SAID: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Eliasa? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. . . . For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
This has not happened yet and will only reach its fulfillment when Jesus Christ returns at His Second Advent. To say that this has already been fulfilled in the church (the New Israel) is nothing short of twisting God's Word and making a mockery of all His promises to His people, the children of Jacob.

I am not advocating another plan of salvation for the Jews and neither am I disregarding Jesus Christ as the only Way, the only Truth and the only Way. With Paul I too say"

For God hath concluded them (Jew and Gentile alike) all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Consider the following:

Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the peoples be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no savior. I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God. Yea, since the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who can hinder it?
Israel as God's chosen servant is a frequent theme in the second major division of the Book of Isaiah. Also consider the following:

For Jehovah will not forsake his people for his great name’s sake, because it hath pleased Jehovah to make you a people unto himself.

For Jehovah will not cast off his people, Neither will he forsake his inheritance.

Thus saith Jehovah: If my covenant of day and night stand not, if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; then will I also cast away the seed of Jacob, and of David my servant, so that I will not take of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and will have mercy on them.

By the by I have not read a single book by Ribera, Irving, Darby, Schofield, La Haye, and Jenkins. I read one of Lindsay's book many years ago but I did not understand it at that time.


Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel, who I have chosen: Thus saith Jehovah that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob my servant; and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: and they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses. One shall say, I am Jehovah’s; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto Jehovah, and surname himself by the name of Israel. Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? and ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any.

If God is able to break His promises to physical Israel, He can break His promises to spiritual Israel (the church) as well.

Tom