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moonglow
Jul 31st 2006, 08:33 PM
Is there is anything that has to happen before the Second Coming of Christ?

thanks.


God bless

David Taylor
Jul 31st 2006, 09:20 PM
Is there is anything that has to happen before the Second Coming of Christ?

thanks.

God bless

In relation to when, the 1st Coming of Christ?

If that is your starting point, then:


The writing and completion of the NT scriptures
the death of Peter prior to John
the ministry of the gospel into all the world
the specific missionary journeys of Paul that the Lord instructed
the meeting of Peter and Cornelius
the arrival of the NT letters to their intended target churches
the destruction of Herod's temple
the salvation of uncountable myriads of Gentiles

and that is just a handful of 1st-2nd century events that were to occur before the 2nd Coming
As far as farther-termed events prior to the 2nd Coming:

again...the outgoing of the gospel to all tongues, tribes, and nations
the great apostasy and falling away from the faith
the time when the love of many will wax cold
the time of last-days scoffers denying His coming
the completion of the harvest
As far as events associated with the 2nd Coming, yet to occur:

The bodily resurrection of all who are in the graves
the gathering of Jesus' elect to Himself
the gathering the wicked to the fire
the removal of the curse upon the Earth
the end of sin upon the Earth
the end of death upon the Earth
the introduction of the New Jerusalem and the New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness
That's all I can rattle off the top of my head presently.

wpm
Jul 31st 2006, 09:28 PM
In relation to when, the 1st Coming of Christ?

If that is your starting point, then:

The writing and completion of the NT scriptures
the death of Peter prior to John
the ministry of the gospel into all the world
the specific missionary journeys of Paul that the Lord instructed
the meeting of Peter and Cornelius
the arrival of the NT letters to their intended target churches
the destruction of Herod's temple
the salvation of uncountable myriads of Gentiles

and that is just a handful of 1st-2nd century events that were to occur before the 2nd ComingAs far as farther-termed events prior to the 2nd Coming:

again...the outgoing of the gospel to all tongues, tribes, and nations
the great apostasy and falling away from the faith
the time when the love of many will wax cold
the time of last-days scoffers denying His coming
the completion of the harvestAs far as events associated with the 2nd Coming, yet to occur:

The bodily resurrection of all who are in the graves
the gathering of Jesus' elect to Himself
the gathering the wicked to the fire
the removal of the curse upon the Earth
the end of sin upon the Earth
the end of death upon the Earth
the introduction of the New Jerusalem and the New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousnessThat's all I can rattle off the top of my head presently.

Exactly, good response.

Paul

moonglow
Jul 31st 2006, 09:30 PM
that is very good, thank you. Well the pre tribbers have certain events they believe will happen before the return of Jesus...such as the beast coming, the mark, the seven year tribulation, and so forth. Since the partial preterism and amillennialism view most if not all of this as being in the past, having already happened, I am just asking if there is anything left that has to happen before His return.


In relation to when, the 1st Coming of Christ?

If that is your starting point, then:


The writing and completion of the NT scriptures
the death of Peter prior to John
the ministry of the gospel into all the world
the specific missionary journeys of Paul that the Lord instructed
the meeting of Peter and Cornelius
the arrival of the NT letters to their intended target churches
the destruction of Herod's temple
the salvation of uncountable myriads of Gentiles

and that is just a handful of 1st-2nd century events that were to occur before the 2nd Coming
As far as farther-termed events prior to the 2nd Coming:

again...the outgoing of the gospel to all tongues, tribes, and nations
the great apostasy and falling away from the faith
the time when the love of many will wax cold
the time of last-days scoffers denying His coming
the completion of the harvest

Do you mean the above has already happened or is currently happening? I don't quiet understand what you mean by 'farther-termed events'.

As far as events associated with the 2nd Coming, yet to occur:

The bodily resurrection of all who are in the graves
the gathering of Jesus' elect to Himself
the gathering the wicked to the fire
the removal of the curse upon the Earth
the end of sin upon the Earth
the end of death upon the Earth
the introduction of the New Jerusalem and the New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness
That's all I can rattle off the top of my head presently.

Now on this last list, do you see this happening at the time Jesus returns? (not excatly all at once) but for instance the rising of the living and the dead, the Great White Throne judgement and so on...?

I appericate your input. :)

God bless

ScottJohnson
Jul 31st 2006, 09:32 PM
The revealing of the "man of lawlessness"

moonglow
Jul 31st 2006, 09:33 PM
The revealing of the "man of lawlessness"

Do you mean the beast in Revelation?

ScottJohnson
Jul 31st 2006, 09:38 PM
that is very good, thank you. Well the pre tribbers have certain events they believe will happen before the return of Jesus...such as the beast coming, the mark, the seven year tribulation, and so forth. Since the partial preterism and amillennialism view most if not all of this as being in the past, having already happened, I am just asking if there is anything left that has to happen before His return.



Now on this last list, do you see this happening at the time Jesus returns? (not excatly all at once) but for instance the rising of the living and the dead, the Great White Throne judgement and so on...?

I appericate your input. :)

God bless
I don't believe that the Bible puts any time limitations on any of the events that are to preceed the second coming.

Maybe the destruction of Jerusalem.

I would assume that the events that Dave listed that I have below would be integrated with the second coming


the completion of the harvest

The bodily resurrection of all who are in the graves
the gathering of Jesus' elect to Himself
the gathering the wicked to the fire
the removal of the curse upon the Earth
the end of sin upon the Earth
the end of death upon the Earth
the introduction of the New Jerusalem and the New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness

ScottJohnson
Jul 31st 2006, 09:40 PM
Do you mean the beast in Revelation?

Actually I was referring to 2 Thes 2:3 and 8. This isn't to say that they aren't one and the same.

David Taylor
Jul 31st 2006, 09:41 PM
Now on this last list, do you see this happening at the time Jesus returns? (not excatly all at once) but for instance the rising of the living and the dead, the Great White Throne judgement and so on...?

I appericate your input. :)

God bless

I see Judgement/Resurrection Day based on when Jesus said it would occur.....

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

David Taylor
Jul 31st 2006, 09:46 PM
Do you mean the beast in Revelation?

There have always been wicked Satan-following beasts and antichrists.

There always will, until Christ appears, and casts all of them into the lake of Fire.

Will there be one final one, greater than all the rest? Perhaps so.

Revelation 19 and 2 Thess 2:8 (if referring to the same person) seems to find his demise at the 2nd Coming.

moonglow
Jul 31st 2006, 10:13 PM
Well I think the man of lawness/antichrist/beast is all one person and in the past....here is a great article on it:

http://www.caledonianfire.org/caledonianfire/docs/IIthes.htm

II Thessalonians 1:3 - 2:12
Pastor Mark Alvis

In II Thessalonians 1:3-4 (written around A.D. 50-51), the Apostle Paul tells of his pride in the believers at Thessalonica. They were standing firm for the Lord in the midst of great persecution. In verses 5-7, the Apostle assures these believers (contemporaries of Paul) that relief from their persecutors was on the way. How was this relief to come? Verse 7 declares that the Lord Jesus was about to reveal his awesome power from heaven against the persecutors of the Thessalonians. Therefore the judgment of verses 5-8, is not referring to an end of the world event - unless there are some clear indications of this from the text.

The primary reason this passage is associated with the coming of Christ at the end of the New Covenant Age is due to the last part of verse 7. The Apostle Paul describes the judgment coming in his day as the Lord Jesus being "revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels." Cannot the Lord Jesus judge wickedness from his heavenly throne? And whenever he does, it REVEALS the power and authority he wields in both heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:18-21; Col. 1:15-16; Rev. 1:5).

In the Old Testament, God's judgments upon nations and leaders were sometimes referred to as a "coming of the Lord" (Isaiah 19:1; Micah 1:3-7). However, when God did "rend the heavens and come down" (Isaiah 64:1-3), it did not mean that people literally saw him descend out of heaven. In the same way, for our Lord Jesus to be "revealed from heaven" does not require that he be seen coming in the sky.

It should also be noted that when King Jesus judges, he uses his angels in the process. Angels are God's servants (Heb. 1:7) who execute judgement against the wicked (Isaiah 37:36) for the sake of the righteous (II Chronicles 32:20-22; Psalm 34:7). People normally do not see angels (II Kings 6:17); they are spirit-beings (Hebrews 1:14). And so when Paul speaks of Christ being "revealed from heaven in blazing fire (fire speaks of wrath) with his powerful angels" - this is biblical language of judgment and is not necessarily describing the end of the world (although this kind of judgment usually marked the end of the world for God's targeted enemies - II Thess. 1:8-10).

With this background in mind, we can now properly approach II Thessalonians 2:1-12. The "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," spotlighted in verse 1, is the same divine judgment that Paul has already discussed in chapter 1. However, in chapter 2, the Apostle Paul needed to clarify that even though this judgment was on the horizon, it had not yet begun (as rumor was claiming - verse 2).

The "day of the Lord" in verse 2, is synonymous with the "coming of our Lord" in verse 1. Both phrases speak of massive, divine judgments upon nations and leaders. There were numerous "comings of the Lord" and "days of the Lord" that transpired in Old Testament times (II Sam. 22:1, 7-10; Isaiah 13:1, 6, 17-19; Ezek. 30:1-4). The "day of the Lord" the Apostle Paul is focused upon in II Thessalonians 1 and 2, was a judgment that would bring deliverance and relief to the Christians being persecuted in Paul's day. Who were the primary persecutors of Christians in Paul's day? The biblical answer is: apostate Jews, who not only became hostile toward Christians themselves, but also stirred up ill feelings towards believers among the Romans and other Gentile peoples (Acts 14:1-2, 19; I Thess. 2:14-16).

Christ's judgment against apostate Israel would not only punish the wrong-doers, but also bring deliverance to the righteous. This is what Paul means in II Thessalonians 2:1, when he speaks of Christians being "gathered to Christ." The prophet Isaiah spoke the same way to Judah hundreds of years earlier in Isaiah 40:10-11, "See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power, and his arm rules for him . . . He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart . . . ."

Our Lord Jesus also stated this truth just before going to the cross. In Luke 21:23, he declared there would be great distress in the land of Israel. However, this very judgment upon unbelieving Israel, would cause believing Jews to "stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" (Luke 21:28). And to make sure his disciples understood that these events were not hundreds of years away, Jesus solemnly promised, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" (Luke 21:32). When Paul wrote II Thessalonians, over 20 years had elapsed on Jesus' time clock. The "day of the Lord," which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, was rapidly approaching.

As we continue our examination of II Thessalonians 2, I want to acknowledge that I am very aware that this passage is commonly quoted when "end of the world" discussions are taking place. The "man of lawlessness" Paul refers to has been identified by so many as a superhuman antichrist who appears at the end of the New Covenant Age that very few Christians in the twentieth century have studied this text without presupposing a futuristic interpretation. This is extremely unfortunate, because when context, grammar and biblical parallels are treated seriously, there is very little chance that Paul was writing about events in OUR future.

Let me again review the context of this passage. In II Thessalonians 1:3-4, Paul praised the believers at Thessalonica for standing firm in the faith, even though they were being severely persecuted. In verses 5-7a, Paul assured them that God's judgment upon their persecutors was coming shortly. This passage CANNOT be describing events thousands of years from Paul's day. After all, what kind of relief will a judgment in OUR time bring to believers who have now been dead for more than nineteen hundred years?

All through the Old Testament, God demonstrated his ability to judge evil from his heavenly throne. Read the book of Isaiah if you have forgotten. Therefore, it should not surprise us that after our Lord Jesus took his seat at the Father's right hand (Eph. 1:18-22), he too began to demonstrate his power to judge the wicked from his heavenly throne. The more dramatic the judgment, the more dramatically it REVEALS Christ's power and sovereignty (II Thess. 1:7b).

In II Thessalonians 1:8, the Apostle reassured the believers at Thessalonica that Christ's soon coming judgment would be leveled against those "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel. . . ." The pouring out of Christ's wrath was not to be indiscriminate. The righteous were not going to be wiped out along with the unrighteous (we see this principle throughout the Scripture - Gen. 6:5-8; 19:12-13; Ezek. 9:3-6).

In verse 9, Paul declared that the coming judgment against the wicked would not only destroy their earthly well-being, but also seal their eternal doom. When people die in unbelief, their destinies are forever set.

Verse 10, contains a very important phrase: "on the day he comes." Throughout biblical history, major judgments by God have been referred to as: "a day of the Lord" (Isa. 13:1-9; Ezek. 30:1-4; Joel 2:1-3), and a "coming of the Lord" (Psalm 144:5-7; II Sam. 22:7-18; Micah 1:1-3). These references demonstrate that God often used foreign armies to carry out his judgments. Was there a major judgment coming in the days of the Apostles? Yes. Our Lord Jesus alluded to it in Matthew 10:17-23; 16:27-28; 23:33-36; 24:1-34. In all of these passages Jesus promised that his judgment upon those who persecuted his followers would occur within the lifetime of the Apostles. In Matthew 23 and 24, Jesus specifically stated that apostate Israel was going to be the target of his wrath.

In II Thessalonians 2, Paul continued to address this soon coming judgment foretold by Christ. However, the Apostle needed to clear up a false rumor that the day of the Lord (time of Israel's judgment) had already begun. Why did this rumor get started in A.D. 50-51? Let me submit the following reasons: (1) Jesus told his disciples that when THEY SAW Jerusalem surrounded by armies, its desolation was near (Luke 21:20). Israel had become a part of the Roman Empire around A.D. 6. Therefore, Jesus must have been referring to Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Why? Because Rome, the strongest nation on earth at that time, would not allow the armies of any other country to destroy what belonged to her. (2) In Acts 18:1-2, we learn that Claudius (Emperor of the Roman Empire when Paul wrote II Thessalonians) had recently expelled all Jews from Rome. Secular historians tell us that this event occurred in A.D. 49. Paul wrote II Thessalonians a year or so later from the city of Corinth, where he had met Aquila and Priscilla (Jewish believers who had been expelled from Rome). It is not hard to understand why some of Paul's contemporaries may have thought that the day of the Lord had begun.

In verse 2, Paul counseled the believers at Thessalonica not to become unsettled or alarmed over this rumor. Why should Israel's judgment alarm the believers at Thessalonica? It would be alarming to them because Jewish people were scattered all over the Roman Empire. If war was being declared on Israel, then Roman soldiers could have begun attacking Jews in every city (including Thessalonica). We must also remember that in A.D. 50-51, Christianity was still considered a sect of Judaism by Rome.

In verse 3, Paul's goal was to put the minds of the Thessalonians at ease by reminding them (v. 5) that the day of the Lord could not come until two dramatic events took place: (1) the rebellion (apostasy), and (2) the man of lawlessness had to be revealed. What did Paul mean by "the apostasy?" To apostatize is to fall away from the faith. This could not be referring to unbelievers who had never known the truth. We cannot rebell against what we have never had. Could the "apostasy" be referring to the Jewish people (Romans 9:4-5)? As a nation, the Jews should have embraced Christ as their Messiah. But as history testifies, they rejected Jesus and apostatized from the true faith. It is doubtful however, that Paul was referring to the Jews. I say this because the apostasy Paul had in mind in II Thessalonians 2, was a future event. Paul had already spoken of the Jewish apostasy as a past event in I Thess. 2:14-16. The apostasy in view therefore, was a falling away from the faith within the Church of Jesus Christ. This did take place, but not for another ten to fifeteen years (II Tim. 4:16; Heb. 6:4-9; I John 2:18-19; II John 7; Jude 3-4; Rev. 2:1 - 3:22 ).

(continued...we all know you like reading long post, uh...:rolleyes: )

moonglow
Jul 31st 2006, 10:14 PM
The other sign that would preceed the day of the Lord was the appearance of the man of lawlessness. How did Paul know this man was "doomed to destruction" (v. 3)? Because Daniel 9:27 says so. According to Daniel 9:25-27, the RULER (whose people would destroy the city and the sanctuary) was going to set up an "abomination that causes desolation." An "abomination" is something totally abhorrent to God. Since it was the armies of Rome that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70, it seems abundantly clear that the man of lawlessness was a Roman ruler who committed an abominable act sometime before Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

Because of verse 4 (and verses 8-12), it is being taught that a future antichrist will one day enter the sanctuary of a rebuilt Jewish temple at Jerusalem. This is not possible because of the following reasons: (1) a rebuilt stone temple at Jerusalem would not be holy to God. The Jewish temple was only a temporary provision until Christ came to offer himself as our perfect sacrifice - Heb. 9:1-10; 10:1-12. The days of a stone temple are over forever. (2) The temple alluded to in II Thess. 2:4, was present on earth even as Paul was writing - just as the man of lawlessness was present (but not yet revealed - v. 6). (3) It is highly unlikely that "the abomination" foretold by Daniel and alluded to by Paul, had anything to do with the stone temple at Jerusalem. I say this because that temple had been marked off by God for destruction as far back as Daniel 9:26; and made obsolete when Christ died on the cross (Matt. 27:50-51; Heb. 8:13). For a "man of sin" to enter an obsolete Jewish temple, which had been signaled out for destruction by God Himself, hardly seems to qualify as an "abomination."

So who was the man of lawlessness ready to be revealed in Paul's day; what was the temple the man of lawlessness was destined to take a seat in; and what was the abomination committed by the man of lawlessness?

I believe the man of lawlessness who was ready to be revealed in Paul's day was Nero Caesar. Please keep the following historical facts in mind as we consider the evidence for this claim. (1) Paul wrote II Thess. around A.D. 51. Caesar Nero came to the throne in A.D. 54. (2) According to ancient historians and church tradition, Nero put to death multitudes of Christians - including the Apostle Paul. (3) He was the sixth and final emperor of the Julio-Claudian line. These men ruled the Roman Empire during the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - an extremely significant time in history. (4) All of the Julio-Claudian emperors were deified by the Roman Senate.

Add to these facts the following biblical support for Nero as the man of lawlessness. In Dan. 7, we learn of a ruler who would emerge from the fourth kingdom of Daniel's vision (the Roman Empire). This ruler was to be given power to oppress the saints for "a time, times and half a time" (about a three and a half year period). Nero began to persecute Christians after the fire of Rome (July of A.D. 64. It undoubtedly took Nero several months to take care of the immediate crises caused by the fire and then develop his case against the Christian segment of Rome - whom he blamed for starting the fire). Nero continued to persecute Christians until the time of his death (June of A.D. 68).

The same beast (kingdom) and personage of Dan. 7:19-25, are spoken of by John in the book of Revelation. In Rev. 13:18, John gives an important clue about the identity of the beast by revealing the number of a man closely associated with this kingdom. The man's number was - 666. In ancient Hebrew, the alphabet also served as a numbering system. Each letter of the alphabet had a numerical value. Most Hebrew lexicons or books on Hebrew grammar will give these numerical values. One of the natural spin-offs of this numbering system is that everyone's name had a numerical value. For example, the name David in Hebrew equals fourteen. Matthew uses this well-known fact to emphasize that Jesus was a descendant of David (Matt. 1:17). The name of Caesar Nero in Hebrew has the numerical value of six hundred and sixty-six.

In Rev. 17:10, the seven heads of the beast (the Roman Empire) are said to represent seven kings. When John was writing the book of Revelation, five of the kings had fallen (died), one was presently ruling (the sixth king), and the seventh had not yet come. When the seventh king did come, his rule would last only a short time. Caesar Nero was the sixth emperor of the Julio-Claudian Caesars. After Nero's death, Galba fought his way to the throne, but lasted only a few months before he was killed. Let's return to II Thess. 2:4, The Apostle states in this verse that the man of lawlessness was destined to "oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God or worshiped." Paul is quoting from Dan. 11:36, which is closely connected to Dan. 7:20-21 and 25. Does Nero fit this description? He deeply offended the Romans of his day by having statues of himself placed all through the city of Rome - even in the most sacred of shrines. He obviously thought nothing of Jesus Christ and opposed Him by killing Christians for sport. Of course, all of the Julio-Claudian Caesars were touted as gods.

Objection #1: In what sense did Nero "take his seat in God's temple?" The word for temple in II Thess. 2:4, is "naos." Every other time Paul used that particular word, he was referring to believers in Christ (I Cor. 3:16-17; 6:16; II Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21). It is extremely clear in the New Testament that the Church is the temple of God on earth today. When Paul wrote II Thessalonians, the stone temple at Jerusalem had already been made obsolete by Christ's death on the cross (Matt. 27:51; Heb. 8:13-9:14). Why would Paul refer to the obsolete stone temple as God's "naos," when he clearly taught everyplace else that Christians were God's "naos?"

Objection #2: How can it be said that Nero took his seat in the Church - if the Church is what Paul was referring to by "naos"? To take a seat, is to take a position of authority. In Matt. 23:1-3, our Lord Jesus said the teachers of the law and the Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat" (there was no literal chair involved). Jesus goes on to explain that these men had gained positions of authority under the Mosaic system. Because the people Jesus was speaking to lived under that system, they had a responsibility to obey these leaders (but not follow their sin). In a similar sense, Nero ascended to the throne of Rome a few years after Paul wrote II Thessalonians. Most, if not all, of the Church in Paul's day was within the Roman Empire. Therefore, according to Romans 13:1-2, it can accurately be said that Nero gained a "seat of authority" that was to be recognized and submitted to by Christians as long as Nero's laws did not violate God's Law (Acts 4:19). When Nero used his God-given authority to punish good and reward evil, it was an abomination in God's sight (Prov. 16:12; 17:15)

Nero also "took a seat" in God's temple because some professing Christians tried to justify bowing to Caesar (Pergamum was the major center in Asia for Caesar-worship - Rev. 2:12-16). Particularly among these people, Nero gained a seat of power. Look now at verses 6-7,

"And now you know what is holding him back (the lawless one was present on earth when Paul wrote this letter in A.D. 51), so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."

Who was the one holding back the "man of lawlessness" and the "power of lawlessness?" According to Dan. 12:1, Michael is the angelic prince whose job was to protect Daniel's people. According to the context of Dan. 12:1, "Daniel's people" could refer to the entire nation of Israel or to just the believing Jews of Israel (those whose names are found written in the book). This verse speaks of a time of great national distress and deliverance for the righteous. Nero was given power over the saints for a short time (Dan. 7:25), but his greatest havoc was wrecked upon the nation of unbelieving Israel. It was when Nero was emperor, that Israel rebelled against Rome. This resulted in the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (Dan. 9:26). It seems that Michael's protective care over the nation of Israel was to be withdrawn and transferred to God's new "chosen people" and "holy nation" (I Peter 2:9-10). After the restrainer was taken out of the way, Nero was free to unleash all his wickedness. God used the evil in Nero's heart to judge unbelieving Israel. However, because of what Nero did to God's saints, his doomed was sealed (Dan. 9:27; 11:45).

The manner in which Paul describes Nero's destruction has caused many Bible students to "futurize" (a new word which should soon be appearing in dictionaries everywhere) II Thess. 2:1-12. Listen to verse 8, "And then (after Michael's restraining force was withdrawn) the lawless one (Nero) will be revealed (Nero took the throne in A.D. 54, but did not show his true colors until about A.D. 62), whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." Why do Christians today insist that Jesus will only deal with tyrants when he bodily returns to the earth at the end of the New Covenant Age? Our Lord Jesus has already been given all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). Surely the ascended Lord Jesus is able to judge wicked people in the same way God the Father judged the wicked in Old Testament times. Listen to how David describes God's judgment upon his enemy Saul in II Sam. 22:7-16,

"In my distress I called to the LORD . . . From his temple he heard my voice . . . He parted the heavens and came down . . . Out of the brightness of his presence bolts of lightning blazed forth . . . He shot arrows and scattered the enemies . . . at the blast of breath from his nostrils."

In I Chron. 10:4, we learn that Saul died by falling on his sword (suicide). In I Chron. 10:14, we are told that the "LORD put him to death." David described it as the LORD coming down and destroying his enemies with a blast of breath from his nostrils. Why could not God the Son take care of the man of lawlessness in Paul's day, the same way God the Father took care of king Saul?

The Apostle Paul closes this section by informing the believers at Thessalonica,

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing" (II Thess. 2:9-10a).

When the restrainer (Michael) was taken out of the way (about ten years after Paul wrote this letter), Satan came rushing in with all his forces of darkness. Nero went berserk and the unbelieving nation of Israel became demon infested - just as Jesus foretold in Matt. 12:43-45. Josephus testifies that many false teachers arose at this time.

Admittedly, this has been a very brief look at II Thessalonians 1 and 2. But I hope you have seen that when context, grammar and biblical parallels are treated seriously, there is little chance that Paul was describing something in our future. What difference does this make? After all, cannot maniacs like Nero come on the scene today? Of course they can. The difference however, is that we no longer need to believe that a maniac like Nero MUST come on the scene. Add to this small bit of relief, the fact that most of the other devastating prophecies in the New Testament are closely tied to II Thessalonians 2. When we realize this, then a whole horizon of dark clouds are removed from our future. This allows Christians to once again see the sun (Son) and be optimistic about what the Gospel will accomplish in the days ahead.

This is so good I am going to put it on my other thread on this fourm!

God bless

slightlypuzzled
Aug 1st 2006, 10:02 PM
John in his Epistles talks about the antichrists. They were already teaching that the Christ had not come in the flesh, and denying a major tenet of the Christian faith. Jesus warned about False Messiahs and Christs. There was always oppossition to Christ, at times it was worse than others were. The oppossition came from without as well as from within.

roadrunner570
Aug 1st 2006, 10:11 PM
I was reading something today saying that 1 John mentions antichrists..as in plural, but Revelation only refers to the Beast and 666, and the Bible never actually puts the two together....but that though history there have been and will be many anti or false Christs.

moonglow
Aug 2nd 2006, 12:03 AM
I was reading something today saying that 1 John mentions antichrists..as in plural, but Revelation only refers to the Beast and 666, and the Bible never actually puts the two together....but that though history there have been and will be many anti or false Christs.

Yes that is why its really incorrect to say antichrist as in refering to the beast of Revelation...but its the most well know phrase. I had a link once that listed all the people throughout history that claimed to be God or Jesus and some even both!! Like that guy in China...Moonie...he thinks he is both God and Jesus...:rolleyes:

slightlypuzzled
Aug 2nd 2006, 01:13 AM
The Reverand Sun Myung Moon of South Korea. He claims to be the savior of earth, and is famous for his huge multiple wedding ceremonies he hold on the Korean New Year. He usually hand picks the marriages and they are to ensure the birth of new converts. Neat way to ensure his movement grows, huh?......;)

Me4Him
Aug 2nd 2006, 01:38 AM
I was reading something today saying that 1 John mentions antichrists..as in plural, but Revelation only refers to the Beast and 666, and the Bible never actually puts the two together....but that though history there have been and will be many anti or false Christs.

There's many "sons of God", but only "ONE" "Son of God"

and likewise, there many "Sons of predition" (AC), but only "ONE", "Son of predition", the One Jesus ID.

ScottJohnson
Aug 2nd 2006, 01:39 AM
....and there will be false christs and false prophets.

Me4Him
Aug 2nd 2006, 01:41 AM
The Reverand Sun Myung Moon of South Korea. He claims to be the savior of earth, and is famous for his huge multiple wedding ceremonies he hold on the Korean New Year. He usually hand picks the marriages and they are to ensure the birth of new converts. Neat way to ensure his movement grows, huh?......;)

Are ya sure it's "movement growth" or "Offering growth" he's interested in "increasing"???:spin: ;)

DurbanDude
Apr 22nd 2007, 10:27 PM
Moonglow says:

The same beast (kingdom) and personage of Dan. 7:19-25, are spoken of by John in the book of Revelation. In Rev. 13:18, John gives an important clue about the identity of the beast by revealing the number of a man closely associated with this kingdom. The man's number was - 666. In ancient Hebrew, the alphabet also served as a numbering system. Each letter of the alphabet had a numerical value. Most Hebrew lexicons or books on Hebrew grammar will give these numerical values. One of the natural spin-offs of this numbering system is that everyone's name had a numerical value. For example, the name David in Hebrew equals fourteen. Matthew uses this well-known fact to emphasize that Jesus was a descendant of David (Matt. 1:17). The name of Caesar Nero in Hebrew has the numerical value of six hundred and sixty-six.

Moonglow -- according to the above Nero is the beast? Rev 17 v11 says the beast is the eigth king not the sixth king as you describe. I was fascinated with the fact that Nero was the sixth ever Roman emperor , and revelation could have been written at the time of Nero. However the eigth emperor would therefore be the beast which is nonsensical because this was OTHO who was really insignificant.

DurbanDude
Apr 22nd 2007, 11:30 PM
Rather than seeing the 8 consecutive powers of Rev 17:10,11 as 8 caesars , the correct translation should be 'sovereign powers' , which can be translated as kingdoms/countries rather than kings. Better to compare the symbolism to identical symbolism of heads on an animal in Daniel 7:6. These heads represent the Greek empire , and its subsequent division into 4 kingdoms , the heads are therefore likely to be 8 consecutive empires or kingdoms , 5 that existed before Rome , Rome itself , and then 2 empires to follow. One of these empires has had a fatal wound (by a sword- Rev 13:3) , and the final empire would be a country that existed before Revelation was written , and yet had ceased to exist at that time , and would rise again to the astonishment of the world (Rev 17:8) .

Further confirmation that this beast is a country and not a person is in Daniel 7:17 .

I believe the 7 heads of the beast of Rev to be :

Egypt
Assyria
Babylon
Persia
greece
Rome
Holy Roman Empire (received a fatal blow by the sword of the word -through the reformation started by Martin Luther many countries fell out of Roman control)

The beast who is the 8th empire is an empire set up by 7th empire (holy Rome) . The antichrist who unites all religions (Catholic powered religious unity) and the ten political regions of earth (horns) will come to power in Israel (Thessalonians 2:4) and will die while defending Israel from reports to the North (the army from the far north of Israel) . Israel is a country that has reappeared during the twentieth century to the amazement of earth , Israel once was , now is not (if revelation was written at the more likely date of 95 a.d.) and yet will come (its re-establishment in 1948).

There are 3 phases of Roman control leading to Rome's complete dominance of earth as prophesied in Daniel 2 and daniel 7, firstly the Roman empire , then the Holy Roman Empire , and then Rome sets up the antichrist in Israel.

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 26th 2007, 04:28 AM
Great Post!!!!!

BeOfGoodCourage
Apr 26th 2007, 12:59 PM
Well done.

Some want to give the power of healing and resurrection to Satan (living again from a mortal head wound), but this won't do. God alone has power over death and we see that demonstrated in His Son. If Satan has the same power then the whole idea that Christ was raised from the dead by the Father would be in question because we could not be sure that it was not Satan who preformed this act for his deceptive purposes.

Tallen
Apr 26th 2007, 01:25 PM
Is there is anything that has to happen before the Second Coming of Christ?

Speaking from an Amillennial point of view, because Amillennialism, Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Praeterism (Preterism), are absolutely incompatable views, the answer is yes there are many things that must happen before the Day of the Lord (Second Coming).

Steve M
Apr 26th 2007, 02:29 PM
Speaking from an Amillennial point of view, because Amillennialism, Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Praeterism (Preterism), are absolutely incompatable views, the answer is yes there are many things that must happen before the Day of the Lord (Second Coming).
That may be so, but I'm working on my Unified Field Theory to allow myself to a be Preterist Amillenial Premillenial Postmillenial fururist historicist Calvinist Armenian Catholic Baptist Church of Christ Methodist.

Just you wait.

Romulus
Apr 26th 2007, 02:42 PM
Moonglow says:

The same beast (kingdom) and personage of Dan. 7:19-25, are spoken of by John in the book of Revelation. In Rev. 13:18, John gives an important clue about the identity of the beast by revealing the number of a man closely associated with this kingdom. The man's number was - 666. In ancient Hebrew, the alphabet also served as a numbering system. Each letter of the alphabet had a numerical value. Most Hebrew lexicons or books on Hebrew grammar will give these numerical values. One of the natural spin-offs of this numbering system is that everyone's name had a numerical value. For example, the name David in Hebrew equals fourteen. Matthew uses this well-known fact to emphasize that Jesus was a descendant of David (Matt. 1:17). The name of Caesar Nero in Hebrew has the numerical value of six hundred and sixty-six.

Moonglow -- according to the above Nero is the beast? Rev 17 v11 says the beast is the eigth king not the sixth king as you describe. I was fascinated with the fact that Nero was the sixth ever Roman emperor , and revelation could have been written at the time of Nero. However the eigth emperor would therefore be the beast which is nonsensical because this was OTHO who was really insignificant.

The beast referenced here is the Roman Empire in general and Nero specifically. Nero is specifically mentioned in Revelation 13

Revelation 13


17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

The scripture you referenced is below:

Revelation 17

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Nero is mentioned as currently reigning as the 6th king. Galba came after him and reigned only a few months. The beast is referencing Rome in general so when it speaks of the beast who is an eighth king it does not seem to point to one in direct succession, meaning it is not Ortho. Notice how the scriputure before it says he belongs to the seven. Many have tried to imply that this is a future king 2000+ years later. It is easier to undertand in it's historical context. After Nero's suicide Rome was thrown into chaos, with civil wars and empire unrest. With the death of Nero, the Julian dunasty had ended. Rome was given a mortal wound so to speak and was in danger of falling. Then came Vespasian, a roman general in the flavian family. He ascended to the throne and the Roman unrest ended. In Rome's eyes, the empire was revived. Rome's power was resurrected. It seems better in it's historical context to see Vespasian as the eighth king. He was the one who ordered his son Prince Titus to subdo Jerusalem and eventually destroyed it in 70 A.D.

DurbanDude
Apr 26th 2007, 04:34 PM
Revelation 17

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Nero is mentioned as currently reigning as the 6th king. Galba came after him and reigned only a few months. The beast is referencing Rome in general so when it speaks of the beast who is an eighth king it does not seem to point to one in direct succession, meaning it is not Ortho. Notice how the scriputure before it says he belongs to the seven. Many have tried to imply that this is a future king 2000+ years later. It is easier to undertand in it's historical context. After Nero's suicide Rome was thrown into chaos, with civil wars and empire unrest. With the death of Nero, the Julian dunasty had ended. Rome was given a mortal wound so to speak and was in danger of falling. Then came Vespasian, a roman general in the flavian family. He ascended to the throne and the Roman unrest ended. In Rome's eyes, the empire was revived. Rome's power was resurrected. It seems better in it's historical context to see Vespasian as the eighth king. He was the one who ordered his son Prince Titus to subdo Jerusalem and eventually destroyed it in 70 A.D.

When i was looking into this , it did excite me that Nero was the 6th emperor, and Rev could have been written at that time , it fitted in too well. And yes , Vespasian would then fit in well with the eighth king , as far as being a significant king who ordered the destruction of Jerusalem. Also in Vespasian's favour as our beast is the fact that strangely enough he was crowned in Israel , albeit Caesaria , not Jerusalem. But my logic could not accept the fact that the first 6 emperors were consecutive yet Vespasian is the 10th emperor , not the eighth. Also I dont accept the argument that the beast comes on the temple figuratively by having authority over the temple (God's church at that time). My gut feel (holy spirit?) is that those verses are not figurative , we must expect an actual person to be set up on the temple , but I admit this is a subjective argument.

The 8 consecutive empires theory also fits in very well to these scriptures , better than the 8 non-consecutive emperors theory , and in addition the more common dating of
revelation is 95 AD which is the date of the twelth emperor and not Nero , the sixth emperor.

So i do hear your logic , but on the balance of logic prefer to stick with my theories .

DurbanDude
Apr 26th 2007, 04:43 PM
That may be so, but I'm working on my Unified Field Theory to allow myself to a be Preterist Amillenial Premillenial Postmillenial fururist historicist Calvinist Armenian Catholic Baptist Church of Christ Methodist.

Just you wait.


Sounds good , except I got there first :lol:

Tallen
Apr 26th 2007, 05:12 PM
That may be so, but I'm working on my Unified Field Theory to allow myself to a be Preterist Amillenial Premillenial Postmillenial fururist historicist Calvinist Armenian Catholic Baptist Church of Christ Methodist.

Just you wait.

Kind of like a Christian satanist or a Christian antichrist, point of view?

The myth within modern Christianity is that Christian sectarianism is some how evil, but in fact it is necessary. For instance, the Baptist and the Calvinist will hold the essentials of the faith in common and differ within non-essential doctrine. Because the difference is in the non-essentials, the differences are not essential. It is only when pride is fostered within "parties" that follow the traditions of men and make them essential doctrine, that division and strife occur. If you will let your heart not be offended when you encounter sectarianism within the Christian church, then there be no need for your "unified" theory.

Even the Apostles were sectarian.

DurbanDude
Apr 26th 2007, 11:44 PM
If you will let your heart not be offended when you encounter sectarianism within the Christian church, then there be no need for your "unified" theory.

Even the Apostles were sectarian.

lol I know you mean well but Steve was joking :spin:

RogerW
Apr 27th 2007, 01:56 PM
Well I think the man of lawness/antichrist/beast is all one person and in the past....here is a great article on it:

http://www.caledonianfire.org/caledonianfire/docs/IIthes.htm

II Thessalonians 1:3 - 2:12
Pastor Mark Alvis

In II Thessalonians 1:3-4 (written around A.D. 50-51), the Apostle Paul tells of his pride in the believers at Thessalonica. They were standing firm for the Lord in the midst of great persecution. In verses 5-7, the Apostle assures these believers (contemporaries of Paul) that relief from their persecutors was on the way. How was this relief to come? Verse 7 declares that the Lord Jesus was about to reveal his awesome power from heaven against the persecutors of the Thessalonians. Therefore the judgment of verses 5-8, is not referring to an end of the world event - unless there are some clear indications of this from the text.

The primary reason this passage is associated with the coming of Christ at the end of the New Covenant Age is due to the last part of verse 7. The Apostle Paul describes the judgment coming in his day as the Lord Jesus being "revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels." Cannot the Lord Jesus judge wickedness from his heavenly throne? And whenever he does, it REVEALS the power and authority he wields in both heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:18-21; Col. 1:15-16; Rev. 1:5).

In the Old Testament, God's judgments upon nations and leaders were sometimes referred to as a "coming of the Lord" (Isaiah 19:1; Micah 1:3-7). However, when God did "rend the heavens and come down" (Isaiah 64:1-3), it did not mean that people literally saw him descend out of heaven. In the same way, for our Lord Jesus to be "revealed from heaven" does not require that he be seen coming in the sky.

It should also be noted that when King Jesus judges, he uses his angels in the process. Angels are God's servants (Heb. 1:7) who execute judgement against the wicked (Isaiah 37:36) for the sake of the righteous (II Chronicles 32:20-22; Psalm 34:7). People normally do not see angels (II Kings 6:17); they are spirit-beings (Hebrews 1:14). And so when Paul speaks of Christ being "revealed from heaven in blazing fire (fire speaks of wrath) with his powerful angels" - this is biblical language of judgment and is not necessarily describing the end of the world (although this kind of judgment usually marked the end of the world for God's targeted enemies - II Thess. 1:8-10).

With this background in mind, we can now properly approach II Thessalonians 2:1-12. The "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," spotlighted in verse 1, is the same divine judgment that Paul has already discussed in chapter 1. However, in chapter 2, the Apostle Paul needed to clarify that even though this judgment was on the horizon, it had not yet begun (as rumor was claiming - verse 2).

The "day of the Lord" in verse 2, is synonymous with the "coming of our Lord" in verse 1. Both phrases speak of massive, divine judgments upon nations and leaders. There were numerous "comings of the Lord" and "days of the Lord" that transpired in Old Testament times (II Sam. 22:1, 7-10; Isaiah 13:1, 6, 17-19; Ezek. 30:1-4). The "day of the Lord" the Apostle Paul is focused upon in II Thessalonians 1 and 2, was a judgment that would bring deliverance and relief to the Christians being persecuted in Paul's day. Who were the primary persecutors of Christians in Paul's day? The biblical answer is: apostate Jews, who not only became hostile toward Christians themselves, but also stirred up ill feelings towards believers among the Romans and other Gentile peoples (Acts 14:1-2, 19; I Thess. 2:14-16).

Christ's judgment against apostate Israel would not only punish the wrong-doers, but also bring deliverance to the righteous. This is what Paul means in II Thessalonians 2:1, when he speaks of Christians being "gathered to Christ." The prophet Isaiah spoke the same way to Judah hundreds of years earlier in Isaiah 40:10-11, "See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power, and his arm rules for him . . . He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart . . . ."

Our Lord Jesus also stated this truth just before going to the cross. In Luke 21:23, he declared there would be great distress in the land of Israel. However, this very judgment upon unbelieving Israel, would cause believing Jews to "stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" (Luke 21:28). And to make sure his disciples understood that these events were not hundreds of years away, Jesus solemnly promised, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" (Luke 21:32). When Paul wrote II Thessalonians, over 20 years had elapsed on Jesus' time clock. The "day of the Lord," which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, was rapidly approaching.

As we continue our examination of II Thessalonians 2, I want to acknowledge that I am very aware that this passage is commonly quoted when "end of the world" discussions are taking place. The "man of lawlessness" Paul refers to has been identified by so many as a superhuman antichrist who appears at the end of the New Covenant Age that very few Christians in the twentieth century have studied this text without presupposing a futuristic interpretation. This is extremely unfortunate, because when context, grammar and biblical parallels are treated seriously, there is very little chance that Paul was writing about events in OUR future.

Let me again review the context of this passage. In II Thessalonians 1:3-4, Paul praised the believers at Thessalonica for standing firm in the faith, even though they were being severely persecuted. In verses 5-7a, Paul assured them that God's judgment upon their persecutors was coming shortly. This passage CANNOT be describing events thousands of years from Paul's day. After all, what kind of relief will a judgment in OUR time bring to believers who have now been dead for more than nineteen hundred years?

All through the Old Testament, God demonstrated his ability to judge evil from his heavenly throne. Read the book of Isaiah if you have forgotten. Therefore, it should not surprise us that after our Lord Jesus took his seat at the Father's right hand (Eph. 1:18-22), he too began to demonstrate his power to judge the wicked from his heavenly throne. The more dramatic the judgment, the more dramatically it REVEALS Christ's power and sovereignty (II Thess. 1:7b).

In II Thessalonians 1:8, the Apostle reassured the believers at Thessalonica that Christ's soon coming judgment would be leveled against those "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel. . . ." The pouring out of Christ's wrath was not to be indiscriminate. The righteous were not going to be wiped out along with the unrighteous (we see this principle throughout the Scripture - Gen. 6:5-8; 19:12-13; Ezek. 9:3-6).

In verse 9, Paul declared that the coming judgment against the wicked would not only destroy their earthly well-being, but also seal their eternal doom. When people die in unbelief, their destinies are forever set.

Verse 10, contains a very important phrase: "on the day he comes." Throughout biblical history, major judgments by God have been referred to as: "a day of the Lord" (Isa. 13:1-9; Ezek. 30:1-4; Joel 2:1-3), and a "coming of the Lord" (Psalm 144:5-7; II Sam. 22:7-18; Micah 1:1-3). These references demonstrate that God often used foreign armies to carry out his judgments. Was there a major judgment coming in the days of the Apostles? Yes. Our Lord Jesus alluded to it in Matthew 10:17-23; 16:27-28; 23:33-36; 24:1-34. In all of these passages Jesus promised that his judgment upon those who persecuted his followers would occur within the lifetime of the Apostles. In Matthew 23 and 24, Jesus specifically stated that apostate Israel was going to be the target of his wrath.

In II Thessalonians 2, Paul continued to address this soon coming judgment foretold by Christ. However, the Apostle needed to clear up a false rumor that the day of the Lord (time of Israel's judgment) had already begun. Why did this rumor get started in A.D. 50-51? Let me submit the following reasons: (1) Jesus told his disciples that when THEY SAW Jerusalem surrounded by armies, its desolation was near (Luke 21:20). Israel had become a part of the Roman Empire around A.D. 6. Therefore, Jesus must have been referring to Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Why? Because Rome, the strongest nation on earth at that time, would not allow the armies of any other country to destroy what belonged to her. (2) In Acts 18:1-2, we learn that Claudius (Emperor of the Roman Empire when Paul wrote II Thessalonians) had recently expelled all Jews from Rome. Secular historians tell us that this event occurred in A.D. 49. Paul wrote II Thessalonians a year or so later from the city of Corinth, where he had met Aquila and Priscilla (Jewish believers who had been expelled from Rome). It is not hard to understand why some of Paul's contemporaries may have thought that the day of the Lord had begun.

In verse 2, Paul counseled the believers at Thessalonica not to become unsettled or alarmed over this rumor. Why should Israel's judgment alarm the believers at Thessalonica? It would be alarming to them because Jewish people were scattered all over the Roman Empire. If war was being declared on Israel, then Roman soldiers could have begun attacking Jews in every city (including Thessalonica). We must also remember that in A.D. 50-51, Christianity was still considered a sect of Judaism by Rome.

In verse 3, Paul's goal was to put the minds of the Thessalonians at ease by reminding them (v. 5) that the day of the Lord could not come until two dramatic events took place: (1) the rebellion (apostasy), and (2) the man of lawlessness had to be revealed. What did Paul mean by "the apostasy?" To apostatize is to fall away from the faith. This could not be referring to unbelievers who had never known the truth. We cannot rebell against what we have never had. Could the "apostasy" be referring to the Jewish people (Romans 9:4-5)? As a nation, the Jews should have embraced Christ as their Messiah. But as history testifies, they rejected Jesus and apostatized from the true faith. It is doubtful however, that Paul was referring to the Jews. I say this because the apostasy Paul had in mind in II Thessalonians 2, was a future event. Paul had already spoken of the Jewish apostasy as a past event in I Thess. 2:14-16. The apostasy in view therefore, was a falling away from the faith within the Church of Jesus Christ. This did take place, but not for another ten to fifeteen years (II Tim. 4:16; Heb. 6:4-9; I John 2:18-19; II John 7; Jude 3-4; Rev. 2:1 - 3:22 ).

(continued...we all know you like reading long post, uh...:rolleyes: )

When God describes His judgment upon nations in Isaiah 19 and Micah 1 He NEVER says that He will literally descend out of heaven. Coming on a cloud is symbolism for enveloping them in great darkness. God describes VIVIDLY through whom He will bring His judgments, and it is NOT described as a separation through the heavenly hosts of the believers from unbelievers as we find in His Judgment in the fullness of time. God sets Egyptians against one another, brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city and kingdom against kingdom. Then God describes the ultimate judgment as being given over into the hand of a cruel lord, and a fierce king who will rule over them.

Isa 19:2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.
Isa 19:4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

Again in Micah God describes vividly how He comes down, and in what manner He pours out His judgment against the house of Israel. And again we find His judgment limited to the house of Israel, not to all the earth as in His coming in the fullness of time. This prophesy in Micah fully describes the final destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, but it does NOT describe how the Lord will return with His messengers in the fullness of time to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth, and utterly burn away all evil from the earth in His final outpouring of wrath against the ungodly.

Mic 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
Mic 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
Mic 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
Mic 1:5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?
Mic 1:6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof.
Mic 1:7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot.

In Thessalonians we find not only is the Lord Jesus coming but His coming is “revealed” from heaven (He appears bodily for all to see) and He comes with His mighty messengers. His coming here is also to take vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. That would include all the unbelieving nations of the world, and is not limited to unbelieving Jews. We read these are punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. Everlasting destruction is eternal, never ending destruction, did this happen in AD 70? Were all unbelievers eternally punished when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70? The passage also speaks of a specific day, not at all like the destruction in AD 70 which began and ended over many months.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Sometimes Scripture defines revelation of Jesus Christ as knowledge of Him as we find in Rev 1:1 where Christ is revealed (made known) to John to show him things which will shortly come to pass. To know that Christ’s Second Coming is physical and visible as well as a mental revelation of Him, Scripture speaks of His appearing as well as His revelation from heaven.


Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

RW

to be continued

RogerW
Apr 27th 2007, 01:59 PM
I believe the falling away is defecting from the truth, or defecting from the true God (apostasy). It is not saying it is those who know the truth, or the elect, but those who fall away are revealed (made known) as the man of sin, the son of perdition, who come after the working of Satan will all power and signs and lying wonders.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Apostasy is described in Scripture as departing the living God and serving other unknown gods.

De 13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Paul was very concerned this could happen because of the great persecution the church in Thessalonica was facing. Persecution tends to offend many, and causes some to betray and hate their own brothers/sisters in Christ.

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

These apostates come from having a worldly spirit.

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Because they never really belonged to Christ.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Paul was concerned because he knew that apostates could never be restored.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Paul tells us of the falling away (apostasy) to caution us against becoming apostates.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.


Paul warns that this falling away or apostasy will abound throughout the latter days. The latter days began at the cross and end in the fullness of time. The latter days are not limited to only the first century church.

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

RW

Steve M
Apr 27th 2007, 02:50 PM
Kind of like a Christian satanist or a Christian antichrist, point of view?

The myth within modern Christianity is that Christian sectarianism is some how evil, but in fact it is necessary. For instance, the Baptist and the Calvinist will hold the essentials of the faith in common and differ within non-essential doctrine. Because the difference is in the non-essentials, the differences are not essential. It is only when pride is fostered within "parties" that follow the traditions of men and make them essential doctrine, that division and strife occur. If you will let your heart not be offended when you encounter sectarianism within the Christian church, then there be no need for your "unified" theory.

Even the Apostles were sectarian.

Perhaps you must know where I've been to see what I mean. Or perhaps you must know that the Unified field theory is the holy grail of physics, and is completely unattainable. Einstein died still seeking it, and physicists today are still after it.

Also, I grew up in a denomination famous for claiming not to be a denomination and telling other sects they were going to hell.

...

Also, I find your comments about the Apostles being sectarian more than a bit confusing. When I speak of sects and moving in different directions usually somebody brings up Paul and Barnabas; but as far as I can tell, Barnabas wasn't an Apostle. I see great unity among the Apostles.

But that's a topic for a seperate thread.


lol I know you mean well but Steve was joking :spin:

RogerW
Apr 27th 2007, 03:38 PM
The other sign that would preceed the day of the Lord was the appearance of the man of lawlessness. How did Paul know this man was "doomed to destruction" (v. 3)? Because Daniel 9:27 says so. According to Daniel 9:25-27, the RULER (whose people would destroy the city and the sanctuary) was going to set up an "abomination that causes desolation." An "abomination" is something totally abhorrent to God. Since it was the armies of Rome that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70, it seems abundantly clear that the man of lawlessness was a Roman ruler who committed an abominable act sometime before Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

Because of verse 4 (and verses 8-12), it is being taught that a future antichrist will one day enter the sanctuary of a rebuilt Jewish temple at Jerusalem. This is not possible because of the following reasons: (1) a rebuilt stone temple at Jerusalem would not be holy to God. The Jewish temple was only a temporary provision until Christ came to offer himself as our perfect sacrifice - Heb. 9:1-10; 10:1-12. The days of a stone temple are over forever. (2) The temple alluded to in II Thess. 2:4, was present on earth even as Paul was writing - just as the man of lawlessness was present (but not yet revealed - v. 6). (3) It is highly unlikely that "the abomination" foretold by Daniel and alluded to by Paul, had anything to do with the stone temple at Jerusalem. I say this because that temple had been marked off by God for destruction as far back as Daniel 9:26; and made obsolete when Christ died on the cross (Matt. 27:50-51; Heb. 8:13). For a "man of sin" to enter an obsolete Jewish temple, which had been signaled out for destruction by God Himself, hardly seems to qualify as an "abomination."

So who was the man of lawlessness ready to be revealed in Paul's day; what was the temple the man of lawlessness was destined to take a seat in; and what was the abomination committed by the man of lawlessness?

I believe the man of lawlessness who was ready to be revealed in Paul's day was Nero Caesar. Please keep the following historical facts in mind as we consider the evidence for this claim. (1) Paul wrote II Thess. around A.D. 51. Caesar Nero came to the throne in A.D. 54. (2) According to ancient historians and church tradition, Nero put to death multitudes of Christians - including the Apostle Paul. (3) He was the sixth and final emperor of the Julio-Claudian line. These men ruled the Roman Empire during the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - an extremely significant time in history. (4) All of the Julio-Claudian emperors were deified by the Roman Senate.

Add to these facts the following biblical support for Nero as the man of lawlessness. In Dan. 7, we learn of a ruler who would emerge from the fourth kingdom of Daniel's vision (the Roman Empire). This ruler was to be given power to oppress the saints for "a time, times and half a time" (about a three and a half year period). Nero began to persecute Christians after the fire of Rome (July of A.D. 64. It undoubtedly took Nero several months to take care of the immediate crises caused by the fire and then develop his case against the Christian segment of Rome - whom he blamed for starting the fire). Nero continued to persecute Christians until the time of his death (June of A.D. 68).

The same beast (kingdom) and personage of Dan. 7:19-25, are spoken of by John in the book of Revelation. In Rev. 13:18, John gives an important clue about the identity of the beast by revealing the number of a man closely associated with this kingdom. The man's number was - 666. In ancient Hebrew, the alphabet also served as a numbering system. Each letter of the alphabet had a numerical value. Most Hebrew lexicons or books on Hebrew grammar will give these numerical values. One of the natural spin-offs of this numbering system is that everyone's name had a numerical value. For example, the name David in Hebrew equals fourteen. Matthew uses this well-known fact to emphasize that Jesus was a descendant of David (Matt. 1:17). The name of Caesar Nero in Hebrew has the numerical value of six hundred and sixty-six.
God bless

Anything highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The man of sin exalted himself above God in the temple of God showing himself to be God. Notice in Luke 16 it is not a single man but “they which justify themselves before men.”

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Had this verse in Rev been properly translated we would not be having this part of the discussion. This number (666) is not referring to “A” specific man, it refers to the number of “mankind.” So this reference is telling us that this beast will come from among mankind or human beings. The proper translation would be, “Here is wisdom, Let him who has a mind calculate (understand) the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six.”

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

The beast refers to antichrists or anyone opposed to Christ. In this sense, John says were already in his time many antichrists, many having the spirit of an antichrist; unbelievers, heretics, and persecutors. Antichrist denotes an organized body of humans, perpetuated from age to age, opposed to Christ, and which He will destroy.

The Greek word translated “of a man” comes from 444 anthropos;
1) a human being, whether male or female
a) generically, to include all human individuals
b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1) of animals and plants
2) of from God and Christ
3) of the angels
c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin
d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman

Compare:

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man (444) shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men (444).

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (444), who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man (444), and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

RW