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MidnightWatcher
Sep 26th 2006, 01:44 AM
Hello everyone, this is my first post on this message board! So here is the question, "Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?" Growing up in a pre-trib Church I have always believe that yes, he most definitely would. Hey, it's what I've been taught, so it must be true, right? From Greenland to New Zealand, from Chile to Canada, from the eastern shores of Russia to the western mountains of Iceland and all 50 states of the good 'ol USA, all would be subjugated by him. But is this really Scriptural?

I've been doing some studying on this and from what I've been able to gather it appears that AntiChrist will not rule over the whole literal world as many if not most of us have have been taught. The whole world will not blindly follow him as a charismatic, charming yet deceptive global leader of false peace, though he would love for that to happen. But before entering a quick reply of "but the Bible says all people and nations" or "Scripture clearly states the whole earth", let's consider a few things for a moment. If that were so, then here are a couple of questions:

1. Why does he need to wage war with the saints?
2. Why does he have to force his "mark"?
3. Why is he grieved when powerful ships from the west move against him? (Daniel 11)
4. Why do others wage war against him? (Daniel 11)
5. If he rules the world, then why do seven "good shepherds" raise up against him? (Micah 5)

I believe that the hand of AntiChrist will only stretch by and large over the known world of that time, i.e, the middle eastern world and perhaps the muslim world as a whole, where he will have his greatest influence. When we read in Scripture terms such as "whole earth" or "whole world", how should we understand it? Let's consider the following examples of a figure of speech that is often found in Scripture called a synecdoche. This is a figure of speech known as a synecdoche by which a part is put for the whole, or the whole for a part. It is used repeatedly in the Bible when only a part is meant. We often use it daily by saying things such as "the whole city was there last night," or "everybody in town was there." If we meant such a statement literally we would be telling a falsehood unless it could actually be provable.

Here are some examples in Scripture:

Eze 32:4 "Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee." In this verse, we would not say that every single animal all over the world is going to be eating the bodies of the fallen. It is impossible. 99.99% of the 'beasts of the earth' will be living elsewhere.

Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Obviously, we know that the faith of Christ was not spoken throughout the whole literal world at this time.

Luk 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." There was never a time when Caesar literally taxed all of the world.

1Ki 10:24 "And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart." Another example of hyperbole to make a point. The entire literal earth did not seek after Solomon's wisdom.

Dan 4:1 "Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." Nebuchadnezzar did not rule every single people and nation in the whole literal earth.

In Daniel 7:23 he spoke of a kingdom and said that the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. It sounds like this was suppose to conquer the whole world, but this never happened. Once again we are looking at a part for a whole, or a whole for a part. Basically talking about that part of the world that surrounded the Mediterranean Sea.

When John was baptizing in Matt. 3: 5-6, we see something similar happening. We read, "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." This sounds as if every living soul in all of Judea, Jerusalem, and everyone in the region of Jordan were baptized by John. Where in reality it is a synecdoche letting us know that there was a very large number of people who were baptized by John. Judea is the whole Southern Kingdom of Israel, which at that time was Israel. We know for a fact that not everyone in Israel was baptized by John. John ended up being beheaded by his enemies, because He was hated by the Kings mistress and most of the religious leaders in Israel.

There are other examples of this, such as Acts 2:5, Romans 10:18, Col 1:23, etc.

Obviously, "all" does not always mean literally "all" when a synecdoche is used when looking at a part for a whole, or a whole for a part. Having said that, we know however that God did speak about all in the entire amount sense as long as there were not other Scriptures that revealed it in a different sense. For example: That all have sinned and fallen short; That all men can be saved; That Christ died for all. But when it comes to nations and Kings often times God gives us a clearer picture through other Scriptures to show us the difference.

When we closely research many of these portions of Scripture we begin to realize that the Antichrist will not take over the whole literal world and will not cause everyone in the whole world to take the mark of the beast. He would love to, but he will be unable to do this. The terms "all the world" and "the whole earth" and "all" must be understood in a figurative sense when used of a King of a kingdom of men. This is a figure of speech known as a synecdoche by which a part is put for the whole, or the whole for a part. It is used repeatedly in the Bible when only a part is meant. If we meant such a statement literally we would be telling a falsehood unless it could actually be provable. But the Bible does use it in this sense many times as I've showed above.

Some scriptures that convince many people that AntiChrist rules the whole literal earth are found in Rev.13:7-8, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The word "all" in these scriptures is talking about everyone that he is able to get his hands on. In reality the Antichrist will be fighting wars "in the name of peace and justice" until the time of Armageddon. In order to force everyone in the literal earth to take the "mark" or worship him, he will first have to conquer them, but he won't be able to. The AntiChrist will be fighting a war for the whole last 3.5 years of the tribulation period (See Dan 9:26b, "..unto the end of the war desolations are determined"). Since he will be fighting other nations, it will be impossible for him to be the leader of the whole literal earth. In order for him to be the leader of the world he would first have to conquer every nation and every person in the world. He will never be able to accomplish this. He will fight wars right up to the Battle of Armageddon. This also proves that he will not make every single person in the world take the mark of the Beast (in my opinion, force them to submit to Islam). He would have to first conquer their nations and the world in order to enforce it, but like so many before him, he will fail.

What do you think?

For more reading on this, please visit this website (http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/faq_antichrist.html).

KnightwithDignity
Sep 26th 2006, 02:35 AM
I look at the world around me today, and I look at the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation.

In bible prophesy, I see the world in which I am living.

Dan and Rev focus a lot of their prophesies on the 4th kingdom/empire that would rule over men until the coming of the Son of Man in power.

Rev 13 puts a major focus on the last events prior to Jesus coming. Between the first beast, and the second beast, the whole world will be made to worship the first beast, and receive the mark of the beast, in order to be able to buy or sell.

Today we are living in the days of the roll out of rfid chip technology. It has been around for a while, but with advances in computer technology, both in the computing power, and in the reduction of size, this technology is now at the point where it can be implemented reasonably cheaply.

We are witnessing the development of major changes to our main forms of ID. Our passports and drivers licenses are about to receive one of these rfid chips. And there is a major upgrade happening with the computer databases of personal information which are used in conjunction with these forms of ID.

Each state of the USA, and in other nations around the world, these databases are being upgraded individually. However, it is also noted with concern, that these individual database systems are required to be interlinked. Not only between each state with in the USA, but also internationally. This means the development of a world wide interlinkable system of personal identification of any one any where any time. Live.

Add to this picture, the roll out of these rfid chips in every nation, going onto every product that you can buy or sell.

Add to this picture, the intergration of these rfid chips into the electronic banking system, by way of having a chip in your credit card, cash card, debit card, in your cheques, and in your money.

You now have a picture of the development on a global scale, of a system of identification, banking, travel, that affects every one. This places into the governments, or any one else in postion of power, the ability at the push of a button, to prevent you from buying and selling. Until now, you could do that with credit cards and cash cards, but people could still use money to do what they liked. But today things have changed. Many people today dont get paid in cash. Its all done electronically. Most today get their money by going into a bank, or to an ATM machine, or change from a shop. And when the chip goes into the money, they can link the money to you by the chip inside it, and the chip inside the plastic that you use to get the money. These systems are already being tested.

So, when I see the scriptures talking about the power of antichrist being over the whole world, I look at the above, and I can see very clearly, yes.

DAISHI
Sep 26th 2006, 02:40 AM
I don't think he'll have the entire world, no.

MidnightWatcher
Sep 26th 2006, 02:46 AM
So, when I see the scriptures talking about the power of antichrist being over the whole world, I look at the above, and I can see very clearly, yes.

Scripture tells us that AntiChrist does not, or is unable to, control "Edom" and "Moab", which is now modern day Jordan. This is proof enough that AntiChrist does not rule the whole world.

Daniel 11:41, "He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon."

Also note that in Daniel 11:29:31 powerful ships from the west come against AntiChrist when he invades Israel, and he is grieved by this. Why? He would only be grieved by this if they are stronger than he is. He is not powerful enough to fight them (In Scripture, anyone west of Cyprus was called Chittim):

Dan 11:29-31, "At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

AntiChrist becomes indignant because he is humiliated in front of all of these other nations. Daniel said that he would have indignation against the Holy Covenant, which is acknowledging Israel's right to possess the land and be a nation. This indignation toward this covenant simply means that he regrets ever signing the treaty with Israel. Now that these western powers put him to shame, this makes him even more indignant. He begins to contact the other countries that he his previously made agreements with (mostly Islamic nations that he is given authority over), and from this point on it is war up until the end of the tribulation.

Also consider that in Micah 5:2-6 we read of seven "shephards" that come to Israel's rescue during the Tribulation.

Micah 5:2-6 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders."

These scriptures out of Micah are telling us that out of Israel would come the Messiah (Jesus). That the Assyrian (AntiChrist) would invade Israel. When this happens Jesus would raise up seven shepherds (nations) and eight principal men (the first 7 are the leaders of the seven nations, the eighth is Christ Himself perhaps?).

(Read here (http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/sevenshepherds.html) for more information).

So, if you believe that AntiChrist does in fact literally rule over the whole world, then the questions that I would have are:

A. Why is AntiChrist "grieved" when western ships move against him?
B. Why is AntiChrist engaged in wars up until the time of the end?
C. How is it that seven nations, called "good shepherds" in Micah 5:3-6, raise up against him to come to Israel's defense?
D. Why does AntiChrist only make peace "with many" and not bring peace to the whole world?

ShirleyFord
Sep 26th 2006, 04:47 AM
Scripture tells us that AntiChrist does not, or is unable to, control "Edom" and "Moab", which is now modern day Jordan. This is proof enough that AntiChrist does not rule the whole world.

Daniel 11:41, "He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon."

Also note that in Daniel 11:29:31 powerful ships from the west come against AntiChrist when he invades Israel, and he is grieved by this. Why? He would only be grieved by this if they are stronger than he is. He is not powerful enough to fight them (In Scripture, anyone west of Cyprus was called Chittim):

Dan 11:29-31, "At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

AntiChrist becomes indignant because he is humiliated in front of all of these other nations. Daniel said that he would have indignation against the Holy Covenant, which is acknowledging Israel's right to possess the land and be a nation. This indignation toward this covenant simply means that he regrets ever signing the treaty with Israel. Now that these western powers put him to shame, this makes him even more indignant. He begins to contact the other countries that he his previously made agreements with (mostly Islamic nations that he is given authority over), and from this point on it is war up until the end of the tribulation.

Welcome to the board. :)

While the prophecy you cited in Daniel 11 was in the future at the time of Daniel's prophecy, it has now been fulfilled. This is not speaking about an antichrist that would come 2500+ years later.

In the first couple of verses in Daniel 11, Daniel informs us who the different kings in the different empires are.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

Daniel 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.



Shirley

DAISHI
Sep 26th 2006, 05:04 AM
In the same way some prophecies for Christ were fulfilled long before His coming but they still had a fulfilment in Him. So how do we choose which prohecy to use?

MidnightWatcher
Sep 26th 2006, 05:09 AM
Welcome to the board. :)

While the prophecy you cited in Daniel 11 was in the future at the time of Daniel's prophecy, it has now been fulfilled. This is not speaking about an antichrist that would come 2500+ years later.

In the first couple of verses in Daniel 11, Daniel informs us who the different kings in the different empires are.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

Daniel 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

Shirley

Hi Shirley, thanks! I haven't studied to a great degree how some of the events you note have already been fulfilled yet, though they may have already been to an extent, however 11:31 speaks about the "abomination that maketh desolate" something which Jesus noted in Matthew 24:15 as happening at a future time "when the end will come" per the disciples question about the end of the age. So I still see this as a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled.

Having said that however, and even if 11:31 has already been fulfilled at 70AD for example, we still have the seven "good shepherds" of Micah 5 that come to Israel's defence when "the Assyrian" invades the land of Israel. Moreoever, AntiChrist is engaged in wars up until the time of his destruction, so it would seems to me that this Man of Sin's scope of power is limited, geographically, politically and militarily.

Question, just so that I understand the viewpoint you're coming from, are you premillennial in your position?

ShirleyFord
Sep 26th 2006, 07:25 AM
Question, just so that I understand the viewpoint you're coming from, are you premillennial in your position?


I believe that Christ returns after the millennium period (which began at Christ's ascension and ends at the loosening of Satan), according to Rev. 20:8-11.


Shirley

ross3421
Sep 26th 2006, 08:19 AM
[quote=MidnightWatcher;973347]Hello everyone, this is my first post on this message board! So here is the question, "Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?" Growing up in a pre-trib Church I have always believe that yes, he most definitely would. Hey, it's what I've been taught, so it must be true, right? From Greenland to New Zealand, from Chile to Canada, from the eastern shores of Russia to the western mountains of Iceland and all 50 states of the good 'ol USA, all would be subjugated by him. But is this really Scriptural?


He will rule over the whole earth....but what will consist of this "whole" earth. Will Russia, Iceland, Canada ect...exsist? Scripture says NO.

We see when the AC rules it will be over Babylon which lies in the midst of a desolate, barron land i.e a wilderness. Is 14 shows us that the cities of the world will be destroyed leaving only Babylon.

Isa 14:17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Re 17:3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.




1. Why does he make war with the saints?


After wiping out the enemy he will rule just as God will wipe out the emeny prior to his rule.



2. Why does he have to force his "mark"?


Where does it say he "forces" his mark upon the masses? Remember, the inhabinats believe they are in the presence of the almighty and will kill for the mark.......



3. Why is he grieved when powerful ships from the west move against him? (Daniel 11)
4. Why do others wage war against him? (Daniel 11)


This chapter perhaps is describing the battle for the kingdom whereby this little horn conquers.



5. If he rules the world, then why do seven "good shepherds" raise up against him? (Micah 5)


The seven good shepards are his godly counterpart which will destroy him. The eighth being THE head shepard Christ.



Again, if you try to interpet using your eyes you will come to the wrong conclusion. What you see today will not be seen tomorrow. Thus when the AC arises the landscape is vastly different and I believe the cities will be destroyed as Matt 24: 7 takes place and the world become a wilderness.


Mt 24:7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mark

RockLee
Sep 26th 2006, 08:12 PM
He will not rule over the whole world, but due to today's technology, the whole world will know of him in an instant. Therein lies the most frightening part of his reign - his actions will be immediately spread throughout the globe. Nobody will be unaffected on an individual level.

MattHenry
Sep 26th 2006, 08:19 PM
Even if a single future ruler is to come in the time of the end, that will be in the spirit of antichrist, we are necessarily limited by language, as to how we can apply this word to that individual.

From the related Bible verses we could say with clarity:

"This time of the end ruler will be filled with the spirit of antichrist"
or:
"This time of the end ruler will be an antichrist"

Still correct but more deceptively we could say:

"This time of the end ruler will be antichrist" (as in "in the spirit of")
This might be particularly deceptive verbally, particularly in light of the expected pre-conceived notion of the listener.

From the scripture in the original post, one option we clearly don't have is that of saying:

"This time of the end ruler will be the antichrist". This would clearly indicate that the term only applies to a single individual. So this incorrect use is patently obvious since there are billions of antichrists in the world today.

For those that believe that "The Antichrist" was a historical figure like Nero, for example, the same applies. Nero could not be "the" Antichrist, since there have been billions of antichrists, and as the verses clearly indicate, there was no shortage in John's day. There is no question, however, that Nero was an antichrist.

So why did Satan bring the concept of a single "Antichrist" into the Church/doctrine?

The answer should be obvious. Through strong delusion the Church has focused on a single, INDIVIDUAL antichrist, that either came and went in the distant past, or is yet to come. This of course blinded may Christians to the fact that there are billions of people in the world today that can be described as antichrists. If you don't believe this try asking the guy next to you in Church next Sunday "who is (or was, depending on the eschatology) the antichrist?" and see what he says.

An added bonus of Satan's victory is that he stole the truthful meaning, along with the use of the term antichrist, from the Christian vocabulary, except when nearly universally used to describe a specific individual, past or future. When was the last time you heard a Christian refer to an atheist as an antichrist? Yet your kid may regularly spend time at an antichrist's house right down your own block. When was the last time you heard a Muslim referred to as an antichrist? Yet there are 1.5 billion of them.

Satan must surely get a chuckle every time a TV show comes on about "The Antichrist" like the one I saw on the History Channel, let alone how his deception has been peddled by the Christian pop-media. How has this made the Church look to those outside of Christianity? Satan is victorious while the truth falls in the street.

Jesus beat Satan at the Cross - forever. The battle for the Chruch ever since has been over truth. Read the second chapter of Revelation and determine what all the overcoming is about.

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not based on how good he is at defending his doctrine, but on how willing he is to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
More on the specific verses:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=61971

David Taylor
Sep 26th 2006, 09:16 PM
"Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?"

He will neve rule the Christians who love Jesus and remain on the earth until the 2nd Advent faithfully waiting for Him, and faithfully continuing to share the gospel with the lost until Christ returns.

MidnightWatcher
Sep 26th 2006, 09:21 PM
So why did Satan bring the concept of a single "Antichrist" into the Church/doctrine?

The answer should be obvious. Through strong delusion the Church has focused on a single, INDIVIDUAL antichrist, that either came and went in the distant past, or is yet to come. This of course blinded may Christians to the fact that there are billions of people in the world today that can be described as antichrists. If you don't believe this try asking the guy next to you in Church next Sunday "who is (or was, depending on the eschatology) the antichrist?" and see what he says.

An added bonus of Satan's victory is that he stole the truthful meaning, along with the use of the term antichrist, from the Christian vocabulary, except when nearly universally used to describe a specific individual, past or future. When was the last time you heard a Christian refer to an atheist as an antichrist? Yet your kid may regularly spend time at an antichrist's house right down your own block. When was the last time you heard a Muslim referred to as an antichrist? Yet there are 1.5 billion of them.

Satan must surely get a chuckle every time a TV show comes on about "The Antichrist" like the one I saw on the History Channel, let alone how his deception has been peddled by the Christian pop-media. How has this made the Church look to those outside of Christianity? Satan is victorious while the truth falls in the street.

Semantics, splitting hairs, that's what I read there. I think that Scripture does acknowledge a last-days figure, called the "Man of Sin" or "Son of Perdition" or "Lawless One", even "the Assyrian". Of course, there are many "antichrists" in the world today, as there have been many in the past, and there will be more in the future I am sure. Logic dictates this already. But there is one specific AntiChrist that Scripture speaks of who is yet to be revealed. We may still see through a glass darkly, but concerning this, it is clear in my opinion.

Do you think that it is mere coincidence that Islamic "eschatology" is nearly a perfect mirror opposite of Biblical eschatology? Do you think that it is conceivable that if a figure were to appear on the world scene called "al-Mahdi" or "rightly guided one" and the whole Muslim world were to follow him, that this figure could, perhaps, be the "Man of Sin" per Scripture?

David Taylor
Sep 26th 2006, 09:21 PM
Hello everyone, this is my first post on this message board! So here is the question, "Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?"

1. Why does he need to wage war with the saints?
2. Why does he have to force his "mark"?
3. Why is he grieved when powerful ships from the west move against him? (Daniel 11)
4. Why do others wage war against him? (Daniel 11)
5. If he rules the world, then why do seven "good shepherds" raise up against him? (Micah 5)



Because Satan hates Christians who love and follow and obey Jesus.
Because people who don't belong to Jesus are selfish and follow after their own gods, idols, and wills. Try making an Athiest worship Allah....their both false beliefs...yet it would require force to make that happen.
The powerful ships of Daniel 11 sailed 2200+ years ago. They have nothing to do with our future.
Again, all false rulers who didn't follow the Lord are constantly warring against one another. The Egyptians and the Assyrians fought horrendous battles...yet both groups rejected the Lord.
Micah 5 is describing past historical events, not future events. It isn't applicable either.

MidnightWatcher
Sep 26th 2006, 09:28 PM
He will neve rule the Christians who love Jesus and remain on the earth until the 2nd Advent faithfully waiting for Him, and faithfully continuing to share the gospel with the lost until Christ returns.

I agree, for sure. I am also of the opinion that the AntiChrist will never be able to force his religious and political ideology upon the west as a whole. There may very well be massive terrorist attacks, and there will be western Muslims who will follow him, but the United States and other western nations (aside from Israel) will be the coming AntiChrist's number one enemy. Even today, many in the Islamic world call the west the enemy of Islam, especially the "great Satan" America.

America, I think, will likely be one of the "good shepherds" that comes to Israel's defense (Micah 5:2-6) when the AntiChrist invades the land of Israel (if this is referring to something yet future, which I am of the opinion that it is right now).

MattHenry
Sep 26th 2006, 09:44 PM
Semantics, splitting hairs, that's what I read there. What you read was a careful analysis as to what can and cannot be done with the term antichrist. We will not be well served to be sloppy in any regards if we are going to do a serious study of Scripture.
I think that Scripture does acknowledge a last-days figure, called the "Man of Sin" or "Son of Perdition" or "Lawless One", But we are not well served when we make presumptions and form relationships, willy-nilly, that scripture does not allow. These are separate issues. The "man of sin" (or lawlessness) is referenced one time:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So where is the temple of God ever since the Cross, and will be until Christ returns?

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We can see that the "man of sin" is another issue than antichrist altogether.

Here are all 4 verses that use the term antichrist:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


even "the Assyrian". Of course, there are many "antichrists" in the world today, as there have been many in the past, and there will be more in the future I am sure. Logic dictates this already. But there is one specific AntiChrist that Scripture speaks of Only through doctrine. If you got this from scripture show me. There can't be one when there are billions. Nobody can be "more" antichrist than anyone else. One is or one isn't.
who is yet to be revealed.The man of sin is revealed all the time. Perhaps never moreso than when you flip on our TV. There may be times that we can probably see him revealed if we look in the mirror. Did you ever judge another person? Might this qualify? There is no shortage of posters in this forum that proudly proclaim to know God's judgments on others. Would that qualify?
We may still see through a glass darkly, but concerning this, it is clear in my opinion.
We don't notice him on the TV because we are looking over some distant horizon for him rather than taking an introspective inventory.

Do you think that it is mere coincidence that Islamic "eschatology" is nearly a perfect mirror opposite of Biblical eschatology? Of course not. Satan designed it. The religion is specifically antichrist. The leopard-bear-lion beast of Revelation 13 is the Islamic seat of Iran, Iraq, and Syria/Lebanon. Same geographic location of Daniel's successive kingdom beasts of lion then bear then leopard. These were Babylon, Medo-Pursia and ancient Greece.
Do you think that it is conceivable that if a figure were to appear on the world scene called "al-Mahdi" or "rightly guided one" and the whole Muslim world were to follow him, that this figure could, perhaps, be the "Man of Sin" per Scripture?You see, because of your doctrine you don't even seem to notice that 1.5 billion Muslims DO follow a false prophet.... TODAY. Islam is the LBL beast.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Beast=kingdom.
Revelation has been steadily fulfilled throughout the Christian era.

Meet the beast:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=54712

[edit] Oh yea. PS. They mark themselves 666

http://www.66619.org/thequran.htm
http://www.66619.org/

undertheblood
Sep 26th 2006, 09:58 PM
The period in which AC rules is know as the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble, but I beleive he will reign over the old Roman Empire, Just my belief.

David Taylor
Sep 26th 2006, 10:10 PM
The period in which AC rules is know as the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble, but I beleive he will reign over the old Roman Empire, Just my belief.


So Nebachadnezzar was the AC???

That's when the period known as 'the time of Jacob's Trouble' occured and is described in Jeremiah 29-33.

Roughly 500 B.C.

MidnightWatcher
Sep 27th 2006, 05:49 AM
We will not be well served to be sloppy in any regards if we are going to do a serious study of Scripture. But we are not well served when we make presumptions and form relationships, willy-nilly, that scripture does not allow.

I agree 100%.


So where is the temple of God ever since the Cross, and will be until Christ returns?

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.I've considered this as well before, but am still leaning towards a specific literal AntiChrist who stands in a literal temple, though I am open. I understand that our bodies are temples, the body of Christ (the Church) is the temple of God, that there is a heavenly temple of God (Revelation 11), and that there could possibly be a future physical temple of God in Jerusalem. These are all holy places. So, does an AntiChrist figure within the Church claim to be God? Does a future AntiChrist actually stand in a physical temple in Jerusalem? Is AntiChrist a fallen angelic being (Satan) who stands in the heavenly temple and claims to be God? Until I am convinced otherwise I'll still adhere to a literal, physical AntiChrist and temple, not a metaphorical one. If you have a resource you'd like to share for my consideration, please feel free.


We can see that the "man of sin" is another issue than antichrist altogether.

Not necessarily. The way I see it is that the first Beast of Revelation, who is cast into the lake of fire with the False Prophet, is the AntiChrist who is worshipped. If this AntiChrist is worshipped, then he must have claimed to be God and showed himself to be God to those he has received. The one we read about in 2 Thessalonians claiming to be God is the one called the "man of sin" or "son of perdition".


Only through doctrine. If you got this from scripture show me. There can't be one when there are billions. Nobody can be "more" antichrist than anyone else. One is or one isn't.

There are many AntiChrist's, yes, however I do believe that there is one specific last-days AntiChrist that Paul tells us about. There are millions upon millions, but one in particular that is of greater concern during the time of the end.

Isaiah 10:12,20,21,24,25 "Wherefore it shall come to pass, [that] when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.... And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.... Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction."

Isaiah 30:30-31, "And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of [his] anger, and [with] the flame of a devouring fire, [with] scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, [which] smote with a rod."

Micah 5:3-6,10-11,14-15, "Therefore will he give them up, until the time [that] she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this [man] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver [us] from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.... And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots: And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:... And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities. And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."


You see, because of your doctrine you don't even seem to notice that 1.5 billion Muslims DO follow a false prophet.... TODAY. Islam is the LBL beast.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."

Yes, I agree completely, and I understand that the 'spirit of AntiChrist' already controls 1/4 of the world with respect to the beast of Islam. But, at this time, I still believe in a specific AntiChrist figure that is yet to come. His religious base and political base are already set.

Best regards, MW

KnightwithDignity
Sep 27th 2006, 10:22 AM
Rev 13 indicates that the lamblike beast will force the whole world to receive the mark of the beast, and will also cause them to worship the first beast.

Let us at this point make a distinction between the people of God and the people of the world. The Christians who are born again, are citizens of heaven. We are aliens in this world. We are strangers living in a foreign land.

So when the scripture says the second beast will cause the world to worship the first beast and receive his mark, that does not include born again christians.

In that sense it is correct to say that not every one who lives on this earth will receive the mark of the beast, or worship the first beast.

It is also important to recognise, that not every one on this earth acknowledges God. The athiests may not openly worship the first beast, at least not willingly, but because they do not worship God, they will recieve the mark of the beast, just so they can carry on with every day business, and to be able to eat.

The technology is here now for the governments of the world to be able to control the ability of their people to buy or sell. That technology is being rolled out around the world. It is being phased in over the next 5 years or so.

Dont be surprised if things change quickly in the near future. Because this new technology brings with it a lot of power. It is setting up the means for the mark of the beast to be implemented.

RFID chips are going onto every thing that you can buy or sell... they are going into your important forms of ID... and you wont be able to travel out of state or around the world with out them, and you wont be able to do business with the government with out them,... they are going into your electronic banking cards, credit cards, cash cards, debit cards, and even into your money.

Behind the scenes, the governments of each state in the USA and other nations around the world, are upgrading their databases of personal information about each of their people ... and these databases of information are all to be interlinkable.... making a world wide system of personal identification of any one any where any time... which can then be used in conjunction with the electronic banking system ... and transport systems... to prevent you from buying, selling, or travelling.

This is going to be a world wide thing alright.

MattHenry
Sep 27th 2006, 10:35 AM
I agree 100%.

I've considered this as well before, but am still leaning towards a specific literal AntiChrist who stands in a literal temple, though I am open. I understand that our bodies are temples, the body of Christ (the Church) is the temple of God, that there is a heavenly temple of God (Revelation 11), and that there could possibly be a future physical temple of God in Jerusalem. These are all holy places. So, does an AntiChrist figure within the Church claim to be God? Does a future AntiChrist actually stand in a physical temple in Jerusalem? Is AntiChrist a fallen angelic being (Satan) who stands in the heavenly temple and claims to be God? Until I am convinced otherwise I'll still adhere to a literal, physical AntiChrist and temple, not a metaphorical one. If you have a resource you'd like to share for my consideration, please feel free.



Not necessarily. The way I see it is that the first Beast of Revelation, who is cast into the lake of fire with the False Prophet,That's the way I see it too, because that's what scripture says. The beast is the leopard-bear-lion kingdom beast - Islam - that is seated in Iraq, Iran and Syria and given its power by the dragon. They worship the second holy Jihad in the image of the first Jihad. The False Prophet is Mohammed.
Daniel defined beast for us. Show me where you find the definition changed.

is the AntiChrist who is worshipped.Mohammed is worshipped and his false god Al_ah through the Quran. Look at what happened with just his image as a cartoon, if you don't think he is venerated. Islam, the beast, is worshipped.
If this AntiChrist is worshipped, then he must have claimed to be God and showed himselfThey claim that Al_ah is God and thereby blaspheme His name. Al_ah was the moon god idol in Mecca.
BUT you are digressing back into the "man of sin" that sits in the temple of God.
to be God to those he has received. The one we read about in 2 Thessalonians claiming to be God is the one called the "man of sin" or "son of perdition".
You are confusing two separate things again. The man of sin, and especially son of perdition, is Satan. Who do you think it is that causes you to sin and defile your temple?

There are many AntiChrist's, yes, however I do believe that there is one specific last-days AntiChrist that Paul tells us about. There are millions upon millions, but one in particular that is of greater concern during the time of the end.

Isaiah 10:12,20,21,24,25 "Wherefore it shall come to pass, [that] when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.... And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.... Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction."

Isaiah 30:30-31, "And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of [his] anger, and [with] the flame of a devouring fire, [with] scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, [which] smote with a rod."

Micah 5:3-6,10-11,14-15, "Therefore will he give them up, until the time [that] she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this [man] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver [us] from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.... And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots: And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:... And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities. And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."



Yes, I agree completely, and I understand that the 'spirit of AntiChrist' already controls 1/4 of the world with respect to the beast of Islam. But, at this time, I still believe in a specific AntiChrist figure that is yet to come. His religious base and political base are already set.

Best regards, MWIslam has been in its seat for 1400 years.
Show me where the term beast is defined as an individual.

MattHenry
Sep 27th 2006, 11:27 AM
Additionally, regarding the man of sin who reveals himself I found the Greek word "apodeiknumi", translated as "shewing", definition to be very interesting:

shewing
New Testament Greek Definition:
584 apodeiknumi {ap-od-ike'-noo-mee}
from 575 and 1166;; v
AV - approve 1, prove 1, set forth 1, show 1; 4
1) to point away from one's self, to point out, show forth, to
expose to view, exhibit
2) to declare, to show, to prove what kind of person anyone is,
to prove by arguments, demonstrate

A few posts back I suggested that there was no shortage of folks in here that don't hesitate to make pronouncements in regard to God's judgment on others. Term seems to fit very well. At least most of these same folks were made well aware of this verse:
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Here's a couple of related threads:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=62104
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=62277

Christians that are running over the hill with a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other, looking for a boogeyman "man of sin", need perhaps to consider looking at the "man in the mirror" instead.

undertheblood
Sep 27th 2006, 02:25 PM
So Nebachadnezzar was the AC???

That's when the period known as 'the time of Jacob's Trouble' occured and is described in Jeremiah 29-33.

Roughly 500 B.C.I love you in Christ.

Frances
Sep 27th 2006, 04:53 PM
"Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?" .

Yes!

The Bible is reliable - websites that don't agree with the clear teaching of Scripture are not.

MidnightWatcher
Sep 27th 2006, 07:14 PM
Yes!

The Bible is reliable - websites that don't agree with the clear teaching of Scripture are not.

I guess you believe that "all" always means literally "all". Well, I suppose you also believe the following then:

* Nebuchadnezzar was literally the king to all people, nations and languages all over the earth. (Dan 4:1 "Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.")

* That every living soul on the face of the globe searched for Solomon to hear his wisdom. (1Ki 10:24 "And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.")

* Caesar taxed every single person on the face of the planet (Luk 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.")

* The gospel was already preached to the entire earth during Paul's time, to the aboriginals in Australia, the Indians in South and North America, and elsewhere (Rom 10:18, "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.")

I believe that these verses, as well as those referring to AntiChrist, are clear examples of synecdoche since they are all referring to a part for a whole or a whole for a part.

John146
Sep 27th 2006, 09:41 PM
That's the way I see it too, because that's what scripture says. The beast is the leopard-bear-lion kingdom beast - Islam - that is seated in Iraq, Iran and Syria and given its power by the dragon. They worship the second holy Jihad in the image of the first Jihad. The False Prophet is Mohammed.
Daniel defined beast for us. Show me where you find the definition changed.

Mohammed is worshipped and his false god Al_ah through the Quran. Look at what happened with just his image as a cartoon, if you don't think he is venerated. Islam, the beast, is worshipped. They claim that Al_ah is God and thereby blaspheme His name. Al_ah was the moon god idol in Mecca.
BUT you are digressing back into the "man of sin" that sits in the temple of God.You are confusing two separate things again. The man of sin, and especially son of perdition, is Satan. Who do you think it is that causes you to sin and defile your temple? Islam has been in its seat for 1400 years.
Show me where the term beast is defined as an individual.

Matt, you're contradicting yourself. I agree with you that the term beast refers to a kingdom as it explains in Daniel. But look at the following passage, which you seem to have forgotten:

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. - Revelation 13:11-12

This other beast is the false prophet. So, why are you changing the definition of beast in this case to a single man, Mohammed?

John146
Sep 27th 2006, 09:45 PM
Additionally, regarding the man of sin who reveals himself I found the Greek word "apodeiknumi", translated as "shewing", definition to be very interesting:

shewing
New Testament Greek Definition:
584 apodeiknumi {ap-od-ike'-noo-mee}
from 575 and 1166;; v
AV - approve 1, prove 1, set forth 1, show 1; 4
1) to point away from one's self, to point out, show forth, to
expose to view, exhibit
2) to declare, to show, to prove what kind of person anyone is,
to prove by arguments, demonstrate

A few posts back I suggested that there was no shortage of folks in here that don't hesitate to make pronouncements in regard to God's judgment on others. Term seems to fit very well. At least most of these same folks were made well aware of this verse:
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Here's a couple of related threads:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=62104
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=62277

Christians that are running over the hill with a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other, looking for a boogeyman "man of sin", need perhaps to consider looking at the "man in the mirror" instead.

Matt, to suggest that Christians are the man of sin/son of perdition/that Wicked is absolutely ridiculous. So, I guess you think that there will be Christians that "the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"?

MattHenry
Sep 28th 2006, 12:27 AM
Matt, to suggest that Christians are the man of sin/son of perdition/that Wicked is absolutely ridiculous. I obviously didn't suggest Christians are the man of sin. The man of sin - the son of perdition, is obviously Satan. I believe Christians do, however, allow the man of sin - the son of perdition - to be seated in their temple when they pretend to know God's judgments on others, for example. When they exhault themselves above God by proclaiming to know God's judments on others - against God's Holy Word - they are playing God.

When we are busy pointing our fingers at others, or looking somewhere else for the man of sin, we may sometimes miss this. Try considering the definition for "shewing" again, above.

Who do you suppose it is it that causes a Christian to defile their temple with sin? The tooth fairy?
So, I guess you think that there will be Christians that "the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"?I believe there may be perhaps more than a few folks that believe themselves to be Christians that will be consumed.

MattHenry
Sep 28th 2006, 12:33 AM
Matt, you're contradicting yourself. I agree with
you that the term beast refers to a kingdom as it explains in Daniel.
But look at the following passage, which you seem to have forgotten:
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the
earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast
before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to
worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. -
Revelation 13:11-12 This other beast is the false
prophet.The two horned beast is another kingdom/empire. Did I suggest that the second beast is an individual? Perhaps I made a mistake. Daniel defines beasts. Beast = kingdom or empire.

The Quran is the work of the false prophet Mohammed who created Islam. I am fully confident through Satanic inspiration, since it is the dragon that gives Islam his power and seat. Muslims worship the LBL Beast Isalm. They worship the Quran. They worship Al_ah. They worship Holy Jihad. The venerate the prophet Mohammed well into the point of worship as exhibited by their reaction to seeing him made into a cartoon. Is there some part of this that you don't understand?

So, why
are you changing the definition of beast in this case to a single man,
Mohammed?

MidnightWatcher
Sep 28th 2006, 01:10 AM
I didn't suggest Christians are the man of sin. They do however allow the man of sin, the son of perdition, to be seated in their temple when they pretend to know God's judgments on others, for example. When they exhault themselves above God by proclaiming to know God's judments on others - against God's Holy Word - they are playing God.

Matt, not everything in the Bible has a deeply ethereal, hidden, "read-between-the-lines" if you can type of meaning. Sometimes, yes, but often, no. I admire your attempt at employing sound hermeneutics, but the idea you're presenting is more confusing than it needs to be and is somewhat eisegetical. When I read Scripture, and it talks about a future "Man of Sin" to be revealed before the Day of the Lord who stands in the temple/holy place, who shows himself to be God, and then I read about a specific AntiChrist/Beast who forces those under the reach of his power to worship him, and his subsequent endeavors is the impetus which ushers in the Day of the Lord, it seems to me that it is talking about the same thing. The AntiChrist/Beast is the Man of Sin that Paul warned about.

Similarities between the first Beast of Revelation 13 and the Man of Sin of 2 Thessalonians 2

First Similarity
A. The first Beast receives his power, seat, and great authority from the Dragon, Revelation 13:2.
B. 2 Thess 2:9 -- "Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

Second Similarity
A. "All the world" wonders after the first Beast, Revelation 13:2.
B. 2 Thess 2:11,12 -- "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the Lie; that they all might be damned," etc.

Third Similarity
A. The first Beast is "worshipped," Revelation 13:4.
B. 2 Thess 2:4 -- "He as God sitteth in the temple of God."

Fourth Similarity
A. The first Beast has a mouth "speaking great things," Revelation 13:5.
B. 2 Thess 2:4 -- "Who...exalteth himself above all that is called God." Note also that in Revelation 13:5 it is said of the first Beast, he "has a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies." Is not this one of the chief characteristic marks of the AntiChrist?

Fifth Similiarity
A. The first Beast wages war against the saints, Revelation 13:7.
B. Thess 2:4 -- "Who opposeth...all that is called God," that is, he will seek to exterminate and obliterate everything on earth which bears God’s name.

With these points of similarity, it seems to me that the first Beast of Revelation 13 and the Man of Sin of 2 Thess 2 are one and the same person.

MattHenry
Sep 28th 2006, 11:39 AM
Matt, not everything in the Bible has a deeply ethereal, hidden, "read-between-the-lines" if you can type of meaning. Sometimes, yes, but often, no. I admire your attempt at employing sound hermeneutics, but the idea you're presenting is more confusing than it needs to be and is somewhat eisegetical. When I read Scripture, and it talks about a future "Man of Sin" to be revealed before the Day of the Lord who stands in the temple/holy place, who shows himself to be God, and then I read about a specific AntiChrist/Beast who forces those under the reach of his power to worship him, and his subsequent endeavors is the impetus which ushers in the Day of the Lord, it seems to me that it is talking about the same thing. The AntiChrist/Beast is the Man of Sin that Paul warned about.I used to believe that too. I've got 10 years worth of Jack Van Impe tapes in my garage. Then I started writing about it. Then the more questions I had, the more questions trying to answer them raised. When I looked to "the former age and their fathers" I came up entirely empty handed. I realized that the only way all these elements that you have confused together, the way I used to, can be squared with scripture, was through pure presumption. I know it's a tough thing to see from where you sit.

Do you believe that Jesus sacrifice on the Cross was really so imperfect that he has to beat Satan all over again?

Why not study the source of your doctrine a little:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=john+darby&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-500&x=wrt
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=preterism+futurism+&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-500&x=wrt

Try word studies. Type - temple - into the Blue Letter Bible search window and see what you come up with: http://blueletterbible.org/index.html
Then try antichrist
Then try beast
Then try man of sin
Then try son of perdition
Then try spirit

I have a lot of fun moving my way around scripture this way.

For Greek/English interlinear, and Strong's definitions I like this site: http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

John146
Sep 28th 2006, 06:09 PM
I obviously didn't suggest Christians are the man of sin. The man of sin - the son of perdition, is obviously Satan.

So, Satan's coming is after the working of Satan? Does that make sense? Or is the KJV version of the passage not accurate? Do you read it another way?



Who do you suppose it is it that causes a Christian to defile their temple with sin? The tooth fairy? I believe there may be perhaps more than a few folks that believe themselves to be Christians that will be consumed.

Can you explain what your point is here? Of course there will be those who think they are Christians and will find out otherwise. But they are not the temple of God. The temple of God only consists of true believers in the body of Christ in a corporate sense and the body of a believer in an individual sense. But you're talking about unbelievers being part of the temple of God. That isn't possible. But they can be among the temple of God and that is why I believe the man of sin refers to unbelievers and false teachers and false prophets that sit or dwell among or within the temple of God (Church) and lead people away from true faith in Christ.

John146
Sep 28th 2006, 07:07 PM
The two horned beast is another kingdom/empire. Did I suggest that the second beast is an individual? Perhaps I made a mistake. Daniel defines beasts. Beast = kingdom or empire.

Yes, you said the false prophet is Mohammed. But the two horned beast and the false prophet are one and the same.

MattHenry
Sep 29th 2006, 11:02 AM
So, Satan's coming is after the working of Satan? Does that make sense? Or is the KJV version of the passage not accurate? Do you read it another way?So then you believe that Judas is literally physically stuffed inside someone's temple? Who is the son of perdition? May be helpful to remember that Jesus is the son of God. I believe the man of sin / the son of perdition speaks to the way that Satan can work in a Christian's life. Surely you're not under the impression that you are exempt from Satan's temptation, or sin free.

Further I believe the word "sheweth", which indicates fingerpointing away from oneself, helps a lot with the specifics of this passage. But then this is just another product of or Christian conceit, from ego, which word I believe goes a long way toward a single word aid in our understanding here.


Can you explain what your point is here? Of course there will be those who think they are Christians and will find out otherwise. But they are not the temple of God. The temple of God only consists of true believers in the body of Christ in a corporate sense and the body of a believer in an individual sense.Perhaps as in individual when we choose, but corporate when we feel like finger pointing?
But you're talking about unbelievers being part of the temple of God. You're not gettin it. That doesn't mean that those who have been deluded into believing they are the temple of God are. Particularly when we witness them self-righteously fingerpointing.
That isn't possible. But they can be among the temple of God and that is why I believe the man of sin refers to unbelievers and false teachers and false prophets that sit or dwell among or within the temple of God (Church) and lead people away from true faith in Christ.
I believe this too but you seem to be under the impression that it is a conscious effort on the part of the perpetrator. As if a Christian can't sin and be tempted into believing he can know God's judgments, for example. Or that this sin is somehow incapable of leading some other aspiring Christian astray by encouraging him to do the same. I would suggest that this is how Satan carts of Jesus goods from the Church.

I also believe that 98% of the wolves in the flock believe themselves Christians, and perhaps more than a few are Christians. Do you really think the wolves are atheists or agnostics, spending their Sunday morning plotting to infiltrate your Church, pretending to be Christians, instead of staying in bed and reading the NY Times? I believe these verses are about introspection in stark contrast to fingerpointing in judgment.

Just as some believe they can take God's place in judgment - be God - they believe themselves to be Christians too. It wouldn't surprise me if some believe themselves to be "more Christian" and pious than the next guy, providing them with fingerpointing as some sort of entitlement.

Perhaps one of the ways to best spot a wolf in the flock would be to look for them to finger point.

John146
Sep 29th 2006, 03:37 PM
So then you believe that Judas is literally physically stuffed inside someone's temple? Who is the son of perdition? May be helpful to remember that Jesus is the son of God. I believe the man of sin / the son of perdition speaks to the way that Satan can work in a Christian's life. Surely you're not under the impression that you are exempt from Satan's temptation, or sin free.

Matt, how do those comments answer my question about your implication that Satan is the man of sin/son of perdition/that Wicked and therefore his coming is after the working of himself? Doesn't the passage differentiate between the man of sin and Satan in 2 Thess 2:9? That's what I'm getting at with my question. And, no, Matt, of course I am not exempt from Satan's tempations. But I do believe, as a child of God, I am exempt from being destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming.

MattHenry
Sep 30th 2006, 01:07 PM
Matt, how do those comments answer my question about your implication that Satan is the man of sin/son of perdition/that Wicked and therefore his coming is after the working of himself?
The man of sin is scripture's description as to how Satan works in a Christian's personal life. How he violates our temples.

Another example is when he is giving power to Islam. He is referred to as the dragon in this case, isn't he?

We need to take an introspective look for this man of sin in our lives, since God's temple is where he is to be found. Fingerpointing at others would seem to be an important aspect of this since in this fashion we take on the role of Jesus in judgment. I don't know how I can make myself more clear. Satan as the man of sin. Satan as the son of perdition. Satan as the dragon....

MidnightWatcher
Sep 30th 2006, 07:05 PM
Anyway people, let's get back to the original question. For those who believe in a future figure known as the AntiChrist, who believe that he is the "Son of Perdition", do you believe that he will be the leader of literally the whole world?

(MattHenry, thank you for sharing your view regarding the "Man of Sin" and "AntiChrist", no matter how strange and nonsensical it is to most of us. If you'd like to continue the discussion it might be better to start a new thread on the topic instead of hijack this one). :dunno:

MattHenry
Sep 30th 2006, 07:46 PM
Anyway people, let's get back to the original question. For those who believe in a future figure known as the AntiChrist, who believe that he is the "Son of Perdition", do you believe that he will be the leader of literally the whole world?

(MattHenry, thank you for sharing your view regarding the "Man of Sin" and "AntiChrist", no matter how strange and nonsensical it is to most of us. If you'd like to continue the discussion it might be better to start a new thread on the topic instead of hijack this one). :dunno:
Please excuse me. I thought the subject was antichrist. It might have even been you that first brought in the unrelated subject of the son of perdition, and the unrelated subject of the man of sin.

I'll leave you with all the verses that use the term antichrist (KJV):

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Since it is obviously oxymoronic for a Christian to be antichrist, antichrist cannot sit in the Christian's temple of God (themselves) the way the man of sin or son of perdition can.

John146
Sep 30th 2006, 07:48 PM
The man of sin is scripture's description as to how Satan works in a Christian's personal life. How he violates our temples.

Another example is when he is giving power to Islam. He is referred to as the dragon in this case, isn't he?

We need to take an introspective look for this man of sin in our lives, since God's temple is where he is to be found. Fingerpointing at others would seem to be an important aspect of this since in this fashion we take on the role of Jesus in judgment. I don't know how I can make myself more clear. Satan as the man of sin. Satan as the son of perdition. Satan as the dragon....

Again, I think you're missing that it differentiates between the man of sin/son of perdition/that Wicked and Satan in 2 Thess 2:9. The man of sin operates under the leadership of Satan. I believe the temple of God is a reference to the corporate temple of God, which is the Church, and not just to the individual temple of God, which is our bodies. When looking at it this way, we can use other Scripture to support the concept. I believe there are many men of sin and sons of perdition just as there are many antichrists. They are the deceivers, false teachers and false prophets that make their way among or within the temple of God/Church and lead people astray. I believe the falling away and the man of sin being revealed goes hand in hand. The man of sin causes the falling away by deceiving people into believing that "his" message is the truth and "he" is God rather than believing in the one true God. Here is some of the Scriptural support for this view:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. - Matthew 7:15

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - Matthew 24:24

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. - 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 (NKJV)

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. - 1 Timothy 4:1-3

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. - 2 Timothy 3:13

3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. - Galatians 2:3-5

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. - 2 Peter 2:1-2

MattHenry
Sep 30th 2006, 08:17 PM
Again, I think you're missing that it differentiates between the man of sin/son of perdition/that Wicked and Satan in 2 Thess 2:9. The man of sin operates under the leadership of Satan. I believe the temple of God is a reference to the corporate temple of God, which is the Church, We just simply disagree. Here are a couple of verses that I consider for my view:
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Clearly not about the Church.
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Clearly not about the Church.
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
Not about the Church in my eyes, particularly in view of the first two verses.


and not just to the individual temple of God, which is our bodies. When looking at it this way, we can use other Scripture to support the concept. I believe there are many men of sin and sons of perdition just as there are many antichrists. They are the deceivers, false teachers and false prophets that make their way among or within the temple of God/Church and lead people astray. I believe the falling away and the man of sin being revealed goes hand in hand. The man of sin causes the falling away by deceiving people into believing that "his" message is the truth and "he" is God rather than believing in the one true God. Here is some of the Scriptural support for this view:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. - Matthew 7:15

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - Matthew 24:24

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. - 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 (NKJV)

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. - 1 Timothy 4:1-3

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. - 2 Timothy 3:13

3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. - Galatians 2:3-5

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. - 2 Peter 2:1-2[quote=John146;981501]

MidnightWatcher
Sep 30th 2006, 09:20 PM
Please excuse me. I thought the subject was antichrist. It might have even been you that first brought in the unrelated subject of the son of perdition, and the unrelated subject of the man of sin


The question was regarding whether or not AntiChrist rules the entire literal globe and was intended for those who currently ascribe to this belief (mainly, traditional dispensational pretrib believers and even some post-trib believers). A discussion about what AntiChrist and the spirit of AntiChrist is should be relegated to another topic.

John146
Sep 30th 2006, 10:08 PM
We just simply disagree. Here are a couple of verses that I consider for my view:
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Clearly not about the Church.
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Clearly not about the Church.
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
Not about the Church in my eyes, particularly in view of the first two verses.

I believe 1 Cor 6:19 is speaking of the individual aspect of the temple of God and 1 Cor 3:16-17 is speaking of the corporate aspect. I would allow that 1 Cor 3:16-17 could speaking of the individual aspect, though. I'll have to take a closer look at the context. Anyway, you do believe that there is a corporate aspect to the temple of God as referring to the Church, don't you? It's very clear from the following passage:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. - Ephesians 2:19-22

hpm
Oct 1st 2006, 05:14 AM
Europe soon to appear as the Beast and rule over the World again.

Second Beast, False prophet ... is just the false prophet Muhammad. Why would seek you farther. You got a so called "prophet" ("looks like a lamb", but anyway "speaks as a dragon".
His religion is of brutality and violence especially upon women and relegate any other religion to an inferior status allowing for "believers" or Islam to slain them almost at will - see status of Coptes, Jews ans other Christians under Islam.

America - Babylon (precisely Los Angeles Is the big City of Babylon).

Israel of the end of time is said by Prophets to mistakenly rely on the alliance with 'Egypt' - one of the symbolic names of the big City-that-rides-the-Beast - instead of God's Justice. That mistake would eventually lead to the near destruction of Isreal - leaving only one man for seven israeli women to marry him.
This has to be linked to the utter destruction of the Great City Babylon by the Beast she once rode and mastered.

MidnightWatcher
Oct 1st 2006, 07:58 AM
Europe soon to appear as the Beast and rule over the World again.

Are you sure that Europe is the beast, or do you think that because the books you've read convinced you of this?

Download the following: Seminar by Scot A. Dryer - Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. (http://www.profoundprophecy.com/audio/liveRecordings/beitTehila2-11-06Low.wma)

Found at http://www.profoundprophecy.com/, lots of others insightful material there imho.

MattHenry
Oct 1st 2006, 02:32 PM
Are you sure that Europe is the beast, or do you think that because the books you've read convinced you of this?

Download the following: Seminar by Scot A. Dryer - Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. (http://www.profoundprophecy.com/audio/liveRecordings/beitTehila2-11-06Low.wma)

Found at http://www.profoundprophecy.com/, lots of others insightful material there imho.
I listened to the whole seminar. It helps to convince me that futurist Churches will be, at least the first, to be led to the truth. Their eyes are open wider than orthodoxy and partial preterists. I also believe this is why God is leading Jews into futurist Churches as opposed to other Churches, and why growth of futurist churches is frequently stunning. God asked Daniel to seal the book of Daniel until the "time of the end", and then guaranteed that it had been done. It is preachers like Scot, who are willing to tackle it in a fuller context, that will be shown the truth.


Scot's understanding is 90% right-on but a hair limited... for now. The truth and a fuller understanding was so close to his lips that I am convinced he will get it soon.

While he even read where the term beast is defined by Daniel, he preferred to use a definition, perhaps from Strong's which, amazingly, doesn't even include kingdom as an option. His choice was driven by doctrine, because the truth is apparent and even passed his own lips.

Here is what I get for Strong's in the drop down menu, when used in Daniel's fourth beast verse:
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

beast
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
02423 cheyva' (Aramaic) {khay-vaw'}
from 02418; TWOT - 2727b; n f
AV - beast 20; 20
1) beast, animal

That's all! Here is what I get from Daniel who is the one writing the verse: (KJV) Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Here is what I get when I look at Strong's for Greek beast in Rev 13:

the beast
New Testament Greek Definition:
2342 therion {thay-ree'-on}
diminutive from the same as 2339; TDNT - 3:133,333; n n
AV - beast 42, wild beast 3, venomous beast 1; 46
1) an animal
2) a wild animal, wild beast, beast
3) metaph. a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious
For Synonyms see entry 5846

Isn't that interesting? We can see by these two Strong's definitions that we should consider all of our sources with a grain of salt. Even though Daniel specifically defined beast, Strong's doesn't include that definition anywhere.

Second, while 1.5 billion people follow the false prophet Mohammed, Scot can't see that this is the false prophet because his futurist doctrine doesn't provide for it.

I am fully confident that preachers like Scot will have open enough hearts and Berean spirits for the truth. These Churches will experience a revival that will parallel, and outshine, all of the other revivals of the Christian era, that have been a result of a further opening of God's Holy Word.

If you listen to it again, and redefine beast and false prophet in your head, for what and who they would seem most conspicuously to be, I believe a review of Scot's study will help open the Word, to your eyes, stunningly further.
I believe the most important question for Christians to ask themselves in regard to achieving an understanding of eschatology is "what if God meant....?".

MidnightWatcher
Oct 2nd 2006, 02:27 AM
Second, while 1.5 billion people follow the false prophet Mohammed, Scot can't see that this is the false prophet because his futurist doctrine doesn't provide for it.

We all agree that Muhammed is a false prophet. However, Islamic eschatology teaches that Jesus is not the son of God, did not die on the cross, and was only a prophet. But Islam also teaches that this Islamic Jesus will physically return in the future with al-Mahdi (the rightly guided one) who will together end all wars and usher in an "era of peace". Of course, the Islamic Jesus will be a false prophet as well, and it is very conceivable that the false prophet that the Book of Revelation speaks about is this future Islamic Jesus, who will be al-Mahdi's prophet. This will not be the true Jesus of Christianity, but will be a false Jesus and therefore a future false prophet.

Revelation 19:20 has this as yet happening in the future, "Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

How can Muhammed be the false prophet of Revelation if the false prophet works signs in the presense of the beast, which are both cast into the lake of fire together? Common sense tells us that this has yet to happen, but the doctrine that you adhere to does not provide for it.

MattHenry
Oct 2nd 2006, 11:26 AM
We all agree that Muhammed is a false prophet. However, Islamic eschatology teaches that Jesus is not the son of God, did not die on the cross, and was only a prophet. But Islam also teaches that this Islamic Jesus will physically return in the future with al-Mahdi (the rightly guided one) who will together end all wars and usher in an "era of peace". Of course, the Islamic Jesus will be a false prophet as well, and it is very conceivable that the false prophet that the Book of Revelation speaks about is this future Islamic Jesus, who will be al-Mahdi's prophet. This will not be the true Jesus of Christianity, but will be a false Jesus and therefore a future false prophet.

Revelation 19:20 has this as yet happening in the future, "Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

How can Muhammed be the false prophet of Revelation if the false prophet works signs in the presense of the beast, which are both cast into the lake of fire together? Common sense tells us that this has yet to happen, but the doctrine that you adhere to does not provide for it.
Unfortunately common sense isn't the best tool with which to exegete scripture. Nor are we well served by snatching verses from here and there and explaining them individually because we quickly find that those explainations create inconsistencies.

I suppose it's easy enough to do when some consider the entire book of Revelation to be about some future "some day". I guess I feel particularly blessed to understand the fulfillment of prophecy, as opposed to using it as some sort of prediction device.

MidnightWatcher
Oct 2nd 2006, 01:31 PM
Unfortunately common sense isn't the best tool with which to exegete scripture. Nor are we well served by snatching verses from here and there and explaining them individually because we quickly find that those explainations create inconsistencies.

I suppose it's easy enough to do when some consider the entire book of Revelation to be about some future "some day". I guess I feel particularly blessed to understand the fulfillment of prophecy, as opposed to using it as some sort of prediction device.

You didn't answer the question. How can Muhammed be the false prophet of Revelation if the false prophet works signs in the presense of the beast, which are both cast into the lake of fire together?


Unfortunately common sense isn't the best tool with which to exegete scripture.

So you're saying the Scripture is sometimes nonsensical and defies reason? Which verses would those be?

Joman
Oct 2nd 2006, 06:56 PM
The Antichrist, of which Nebuchanezzar is a type; will rule the whole world as Tyrant.
There aren't any contradictions to this fact in the AV Bible.

I give one example...

Concerning Nebuchanezzar,

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Some imagine that Nebuchadnezzar never was the king of kings that he was described in this verse as being. They do this because, instead of believing the testimony of Daniel, they instead lean upon their own reasonings, and conclude, for an example, that since Nebuchanezzar wasn't ever noted in history as having been the king of the Chinese, he therefore, (they conclude) wasn't the king of the whole world.

What they fail to realize is the Nebuchanezzar actually was the God ordained king of the Chinese. That he never actualized his authority over them by physical domination doesn't in any way change the fact that Nebuchanezzar was the God ordained king.
In the same way Jesus now is in authority over heaven and earth. The revealing to the natural eye of Jesus' authority is restrained due to rebellion and lack of faith. But, real nonetheless.
The authority of the Antichrist will be as real as Nebuchanezzar's was. And, any that oppose him will suffer defeat. However, notice that Nebuchanezzar usurped authority that he wasn't ordained for him to have. And, so it will be with the Antichrist at the end of days. Nebuchanezzar was lord over Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. But, he wasn't lord over their worship of God nor Daniel's. That's the rub. Christians will be required to obey the Antichrist as secular king over all the earth. But, they are required to disobey him in matters contrary to their God ordained spiritual service to God.
Jesus was born "King of the Jews" but, did everyone think it actually was so? Of course not. The unbelieving man seeks a physical manifestation on which to hang his faith. But, this isn't the God defined faith, required by God in his Bible. Faith is the substance (the ability to grasp a thing) of things not seen.

Joman.

MidnightWatcher
Oct 2nd 2006, 07:19 PM
Some imagine that Nebuchadnezzar never was the king of kings that he was described in this verse as being. They do this because, instead of believing the testimony of Daniel, they instead lean upon their own reasonings, and conclude, for an example, that since Nebuchanezzar wasn't ever noted in history as having been the king of the Chinese, he therefore, (they conclude) wasn't the king of the whole world.

What they fail to realize is the Nebuchanezzar actually was the God ordained king of the Chinese. That he never actualized his authority over them by physical domination doesn't in any way change the fact that Nebuchanezzar was the God ordained king.
In the same way Jesus now is in authority over heaven and earth. The revealing to the natural eye of Jesus' authority is restrained due to rebellion and lack of faith. But, real nonetheless.
The authority of the Antichrist will be as real as Nebuchanezzar's was. And, any that oppose him will suffer defeat. However, notice that Nebuchanezzar usurped authority that he wasn't ordained for him to have. And, so it will be with the Antichrist at the end of days. Nebuchanezzar was lord over Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. But, he wasn't lord over their worship of God nor Daniel's. That's the rub. Christians will be required to obey the Antichrist as secular king over all the earth. But, they are required to disobey him in matters contrary to their God ordained spiritual service to God

So you expect me to believe that Nebuchadnezzar was also the king of the aboriginals in Australia, and the Mayans of South America, and the native Indians of North America too? I think that notion is just plain silly imho. God gave us common sense so I think I'll use it. The descriptions of Nebuchadnezzar's hand of power is a clear example of synecdoche, and if the authority of AntiChrist will be as real as Nebuchadnezzar's was, then the western world has little to worry about in terms of AntiChrist ruling over them with an iron fist.

And another thing, I don't think that AntiChrist will be a secular king. He will claim to be God and expect worship. Clearly, he will be far from secular.

MattHenry
Oct 3rd 2006, 06:59 PM
You didn't answer the question. How can Muhammed be the false prophet of Revelation if the false prophet works signs in the presense of the beast,The beast is Islam. Mohammed was inspired by Satan. The Quran and Islam are Satanic. Islam is Satan worship. Iraq, Iran, and Syria are the seat of the LBL beast. The dragon gives it its power.
Satan is performing miracles before the beast [Islam] through their religious [Satanic] belief, only the beast [Muslims] believe the miracles come from God through the prophet Mohammed and his Quran. Look at the array of sites when you Yahoo - miracles of Islam - http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=miracles+of+islam&fr=yfp-t-500&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8

which are both cast into the lake of fire together?
Everyone is resurrected together. At that time the False Prophet Mohammed, the beast Islam/Muslims, will be cast into the lake of fire together.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The image is today's Jihad and modern day Islam, in the image of the first 152 years of Jihad slaughter of Christians and Jews. Jihad is Islamic worship.



So you're saying the Scripture is sometimes nonsensical and defies reason? Which verses would those be?No. I am saying that "common sense" or "reason" is sometimes nonsensical when used as a tool with which to exegete scripture. Best to let scripture explain scripture. You know, like beast = kingdom, particularly when we are talking leopard-bear-lion:

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The "miracles" aren't of significance to Christians because they won't fool the elect, but they are miracles to the beast. Just a couple of examples of where they see Al_ah written everywhere:
http://www.miraclesofislam.com/

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/fishallah1.jpeg

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/alaskaaurorathumb.gif

http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles/bees.jpg

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/allahcloudthumb.gif

http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles/mjz1.jpg

John146
Oct 3rd 2006, 07:51 PM
Matt, you never answered my question as to how the false prophet could be Mohammed when you and I both know that a beast in prophecy refers to a kingdom? The two-horned beast and the false prophet are one and the same.

MidnightWatcher
Oct 4th 2006, 05:12 AM
The beast is Islam. Mohammed was inspired by Satan. The Quran and Islam are Satanic. Islam is Satan worship. Iraq, Iran, and Syria are the seat of the LBL beast. The dragon gives it its power.
Satan is performing miracles before the beast [Islam] through their religious [Satanic] belief, only the beast [Muslims] believe the miracles come from God through the prophet Mohammed and his Quran. Look at the array of sites when you Yahoo - miracles of Islam - http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=miracles+of+islam&fr=yfp-t-500&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8
Everyone is resurrected together. At that time the False Prophet Mohammed, the beast Islam/Muslims, will be cast into the lake of fire together.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The image is today's Jihad and modern day Islam, in the image of the first 152 years of Jihad slaughter of Christians and Jews. Jihad is Islamic worship.
No. I am saying that "common sense" or "reason" is sometimes nonsensical when used as a tool with which to exegete scripture. Best to let scripture explain scripture. You know, like beast = kingdom, particularly when we are talking leopard-bear-lion:

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The "miracles" aren't of significance to Christians because they won't fool the elect, but they are miracles to the beast. Just a couple of examples of where they see Al_ah written everywhere:
http://www.miraclesofislam.com/

There are two beasts in Revelation 13, and I definately believe that Islam (or a coalition of Islamic nations) is the second beast, that the first beast is AntiChrist, and that the Qu'ran is the image of the beast which literally means 'The Recitation' (to recite something is to speak, and Muslims believe this to be the Word of Allah). I have also considered Muhammed as the false prophet as well, but this does not seem to be the case when considering that the false prophet and AntiChrist are both cast into the lake of fire together.

Revelation 19:20, "Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Muhammed is already dead, and I believe is already suffering the fate of hell. But the beast being captured in Rev 19:20, and with him the false prophet, does not seem to be referring to someone who is already dead and gone long ago. If the beast has yet to be captured, and if the false prophet is captured with him, and if both are cast into the lake of fire at the same time, then this beast (AntiChrist) and false prophet are yet to be revealed.

As for the false miracles you presented, I agree. And there will be other false wonders as well, such as "The miracle of al-Mahdi's return has come to pass, as was told to us in the Holy Qu'ran" and "Our military victory over the Zionist regime and the occupiers of Jerusalem was a result of the divine intervention of Allah".

MattHenry
Oct 4th 2006, 04:36 PM
Matt, you never answered my question as to how the false prophet could be Mohammed when you and I both know that a beast in prophecy refers to a kingdom? The two-horned beast and the false prophet are one and the same.
What are you trying to say, that the false prophet is a kingdom?
Or that the two horned beast kingdom is the false prophet?

The 2 horned beast being in sight of the LBL beast means the kingdoms coexist. Since the prophetic pin for Islam are the dates 688 to 1967 (then enters the "time of the end") the second beast would also have to exist during that time, and in the Holy Land, where the LBL beast is seated.

In the 10th century the Pope sent out the crusaders who took Jerusalem and ruled for a couple of hundred years. While they spoke as a lambkin (supposedly Christian), history shows that they raped, pillaged and plundered everywhere they conquered. This was the first horn. They didn't drive the Muslims out or ruin the Dome of the Rock so they were performing in sight of the LBL beast.

The second horn was the British Mandate about 7 centuries later representing Western nations. They also appeared like a lamb and ruled Jerusalem from 1917 to 1948. Western nations went on to heal the LBL beast.

The false prophet is Mohammed.

MattHenry
Oct 4th 2006, 04:45 PM
There are two beasts in Revelation 13, and I definately believe that Islam (or a coalition of Islamic nations) is the second beast, that the first beast is AntiChrist, and that the Qu'ran is the image of the beast which literally means 'The Recitation' (to recite something is to speak, and Muslims believe this to be the Word of Allah). I have also considered Muhammed as the false prophet as well, but this does not seem to be the case when considering that the false prophet and AntiChrist are both cast into the lake of fire together.
It doesn't make sense because you are resisting understanding that both beasts, the LBL and the two horned, are kingdoms. Once you see this, and I am fully confident you will, it makes perfect sense that the LBL beast which is Islam and Muslims, and the false prophet Mohammed, who will be risen with everyone else both living and dead during the final judgment/second death, will be cast into the lake of fire together.

Revelation 19:20, "Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Muhammed is already dead, and I believe is already suffering the fate of hell.I agree but he will be brought back for the final judgment/second death.
But the beast being captured in Rev 19:20, and with him the false prophet, does not seem to be referring to someone who is already dead and gone long ago. If the beast has yet to be captured, and if the false prophet is captured with him, and if both are cast into the lake of fire at the same time, then this beast (AntiChrist) and false prophet are yet to be revealed.
You have to be consistent. You believe one of the beasts is a kingdom. So you cannot pick and choose and say one is and one isn't. See prior post to John146 regarding 2 horned beast. This is why I am confident that you and the preacher who's sermon you put in here that I listened to, will get it as well. I suspect that if you and he read the False Prophet it would all fit together perfectly for you.

As for the false miracles you presented, I agree. And there will be other false wonders as well, such as "The miracle of al-Mahdi's return has come to pass, as was told to us in the Holy Qu'ran" and "Our military victory over the Zionist regime and the occupiers of Jerusalem was a result of the divine intervention of Allah".I believe the Western nations as the two horned beast put on a pretty good show in regard to fire coming down from the sky, in gulf war I especially. Remember how everyone had to have a TV anywhere they were so they could witness the spectacle? Schwartzkoffs smart bombs going down chimneys and such. Even we were impressed. Imagine how a first century prophet would have been impressed.

John146
Oct 4th 2006, 05:28 PM
What are you trying to say, that the false prophet is a kingdom?
Or that the two horned beast kingdom is the false prophet?

Yes, the two horned beast kingdom is the false prophet. In Revelation 19, it says that the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Do you think the two horned beast will somehow escape this fate? Notice the similarities between the two:

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: - Revelation 13:11-16

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. - Revelation 19:20

I underlined the text related to the two-horned beast in Revelation 13 that lines up with what is said about the false prophet in Revelation 19. If you think that a false prophet couldn't be a kingdom then perhaps you should remember that you believe the two witnesses, which are also called two prophets, are the Church.

Joman
Oct 4th 2006, 08:15 PM
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


John stood at the boundary line of the sea, upon the innumerable grains of sand.
God has decreed that the sea shall not rise above it.
John is looking out over the sea.
The “sea” represents the world without the boundaries of language, race, tribes, family or nation.

The beast in this vision (in this verse) is the Luciferian conspiracy of the red dragon which was in heaven.
In heaven the red dregon had seven heads, ten horns and ten crowns.


Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The seven heads are seven angels that conspired to overthrow the kingdom of God.
The ten horns are ten angelic forces.
Horn typically represents: army. (There are many kinds of armies)
The seven crowns represent the seven dominions (kingdoms) of the seven wicked angels.
Lucifer is himself the actual red dragon in that he is the hidden eighth angel.
The heads have the name of blasphemy (the mark of Lucifer) upon them.
It is a hidden name.
It is the true name of Lucifer by which he is correctly identified in all times and all places.
It is a name that no other creature has.
Anyone under that name is the property of Lucifer.

After having been thrown down the dragon went underground.


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The beast is now extremely motivated…


Revelation 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The red dragon will arise up and out of the nations as an entity that retains the bsic conspiratorial structure but needfully modified for interrelationship with this world.


13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

These are the obvious modifications.
The “red” is gone. Red represented the violent bloodlust of the beast.
This will be kept hidden until the red horse rides forth upon the world scene.
It is like a leopard:
Spotted:diversity of participants in the make u p of the beast. Members of it are from all parts of the world and all walks of life. Unity based upon a “cell” structure (is now intruding into the churches, corporations and schools). Each cell is part of the network (matrix) and is black (kingdom of darkness).
Quick: the fastest creature. Can strike in blitzkrieg type manner on a global scale.
Lean: Downsized for quickness. Denuded of any christianized people.
The leopard is the main body of the beast.

Feet of a bear: LARGE! The number four always relates to worldwide (global) things.
The beast will apply it’s weight to the four corners of the world. It will crush and oppress on a global scale in a brutal, indiscriminate, and heavy handed way over large areas at one time.

The mouth of a lion: BIG! Bigger than Hitler’s. Big due to the technology that will amplify his voice to the four corners of the world. PROPAGANDA. Boasting of a new way (religion) and a new world (John Lennon’s “Imagine”) excetra.

The dragon (Lucifer) gives his power, seat and authority to the beast (the NWO and the Antichrist).
Power: the ability to do as one wishes.
Seat: the throne of Satan and it’s glory.
Authority: the right to rule over all flesh via the relequishing of that lordship by Adam.


13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The “heads” of the beast are seven men, that correspond to the seven conspiratorial angels of the red dragon.
They are either of angelic descent or are men that are utter thralls of the seven angels. At some point or points they are possessed. This is because Lucifer requires the benefits of the seven conspiratorial angels for reasons of security, knowledge and commitment. (Lucifer trusts no one)
One of the heads will appear to be (as it were) mortally wounded but, not really (digital technology).
The seemingly dead head will be appear to be healed.
All “the world” (not Christians) will “wonder after the beast”.
At this point it is clear that the “beast” is becoming more specifically a particular man, who was one of the seven heads.
The “wonder” is the surprise and happiness the people of the lost world will express at the apparent good news that there is ressurection power apart from Jesus of Nazareth. It will help lead them toward a false hope that mankind can have heaven on earth without God and his Christ.


13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The worship of the “new man” the new age “superman” the “new christ” begins.
But, note that…
They worship the one who gave the beast-man power (the god of forces).
They also worship the beast-man.
They are worshipful because he is unlike any other man in his glorious appearance, wisdom, talents, successfulness excetra…excetra. He’ll get no bad press whatsoever. (Clinton will be very envious)
They are also worshipful because he is militarily dominant. (See:Habbakuk for his rise to domination via a coupe de’tat of the NOW, blitzkrieg and consolidated through sole control of all existing nuclear armaments as well a laser sattelite weapon stations)

The beast-man mind will change via the healing.


13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

He will wax more and more boastful and blasphemous.
He is allowed by God to continue for a specified limited amount of time.



13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Note here that he appears to have become possessed.
It is revealed by his desire to blaspheme God, God’s “tabernacle” and everyone else left behind in heaven.
This isn’t the voice of a mere man who hasn’t ever been to heaven and can’t have known so certainly that there is a God, a tabernacle (in heaven) and others. This person would have to have intimate knowledge of these things.



13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The permission to make overcoming war with the saints is a God given one.
His power will extend throughout all the world so as to allow the possibility of uprooting all christians from hiding so as to slay them.
This is the red horse period.
By “overcoming” is not mean’t that Christians are defeated by Satan in any eternal sense.
Rather, what is mean’t is that in this world he will do unto us as he did unto Jesus.
Our outcome will be the same as Jesus’.
For, our hope is the ressurection unto eternal life.



13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No one will escape this choice of worshipping Jesus, or the beast.
Jesus said he brought a sword and this is it.
All who worship the beast are the walking dead who are without eternal life.
Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The foundation of the world is the earth which was created when the first heaven was created which was before the six day creation week and supercedes the creation of the angels also.
In this manner the saints will realize that God foreknew all this before he ever decreed to allow the temporary existence of evil and all it’s fruit.


13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Joman.
Ps. Continued in my next post.

Joman
Oct 4th 2006, 08:20 PM
13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

This is a Jesus quote. It is inserted here for the benefit of the faithful. Without faith it is impossible to hear Jesus. It is here because it establishes that Jesus is with us and all this horror of great tribulation is in accordance with the plan of God.



13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
From the beginning of the forty and two months this is something that the Christians need to keep in mind at all times. It is related to the attitude of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who faced the furnace that was made seven times hotter. They overcame the furnace by going through it and out of it. They didn’t overcome by attempting to avoid it. However, the wisest Christians like Daniel will not be located.
The apparent injustice of the great tribulation will be very difficult to accept. But, we must accept God’s will in this matter. Nevertheless, when this occurs, a consolation is that we Christians know that they who lead us into captivity and he who slays us will in the end be taken captive and killed.
We will have to wait for justice. The souls under the altar express this great desire for justice and the arrival of the day of the vengeance of our God.


13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

This is the other beast.
He doesn’t come up out of the sea. Instead he comes up out of the earth.
The dragon, who is also named Satan, the Serpent, and the Devil is the one that was shown to have been cast out into the earth.
Therefore, this beast is Lucifer himself.
The other beast is his son.
This beast has two horns unlike the other which is a little horn.
The two horns describe the ability to catch creatures between two forces and force their compliance to the will of the beast having the two horns.
The co-tactics of merchandizing (greed:see Ezekiel 28) and Terrorism are good examples.
On one hand terror forces the terrorized to seek after security and peace.
On the otherhand mechandise forces all that want it to seek after some way to get it.
This beast shows the way to obtain both desires.
There are other dual powers also. Most important is the methodology of two horn usage.
He will appear to be lamb like. He is actually the Wolf. His appetite is for sheep (Christians). He is necessary for the establishment of a religious zeal (thirst) for spilling the blood of the righteous saints of God. This zeal for blood is not shared by many in the lost world since if offers no worldly gain. So, a religious fervor is incited and that force in conjunction with greed for worldly gain will lead to the adherents of the new religion complying with fulfilling on of Lucifer’s deepest lust. Lucifer is Draco: Dracula: the Dragon. He fulfills the prophesy against the serpent which states that Lucifer will eat mankind and like it.


13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This lamblike beast has all the power and authority of the first beast. This is because they are conspirators together. And, also because he is the actual source of the other’s power. (see Daniel)
He uses all his power to cause worship of the first beast.
This also reveals who it is since, Lucifer’s greatest lust is to be worshipped as if he were God.
He is most probably the healer of the first beast.
He is the one that guides all men to the satanic understanding of the man and man’s (the beast and beasts) place in the cosmos.



13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


He is responsible for the exercise of power to create great wonders for the purpose os deception.
He imitates Elijah for the benefit of the unbelieving Jews and lukewarm Christians.
He will perform the lying wonder based upon using space laser technology and atmospheric holography.
He will lead the astounded believers (seeing is believing for the lost) to make an image to the beast.
Image= I-mage. It is the secret occult doctrine of imagination. I-Mage-Nation (a imagined nation of imagining peoples) the doctrine is as follows…
1. I: comes first. (whatever I want)
2. Mage: magical use of ritual and words in intimate conjunction with a retained mental image within the mind.
It is this methodology that reveals how faith apart from faith in Jesus leads to false prophets, healers and other so called miracle workers who aren’t actually in the church.
The fake ressurection of the first beast is the main impetus that convinces the lost to worship the beast.
Satan in disguise as the lamb like false prophet leaves this establishing of worship to no one else.



13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


This is the great lie. It is a personal issue between God and Lucifer.
The idol will be able to do two things, speak and kill.
This is brought about by fiber optic technology and artificial intelligence software. It is my opinion that Lucifer will program the idol himself.
A day will come when the fibers (light-bearers) will be in every home worldwide. How far along the installation is will be kept secret. I know that it is far more advanced than commonly realized.
On a certain day and time all the world will be commanded to watch the show (see Nebuchanexxar:in Daniel).
Starting in Jerusalem the murder spree will commence. All who are in their homes will be seen by the idol (machine) and anyone leaving will be killed. If you’re on the house top you mustn’t go into the house. If your in the field you musn’t go back to the house. If you’re in the house you must run.away immediately. The right thing to do is observe Daniel and don’t be home when it happens. That is the advantage of wisdom. Jesus’ commands in this matter must be carefully understood and followed. Tahe fulfillment will be literal. By the way, many of you need to realize that Luke’s account of the Olivet discourse is different than Matthew’s. It is different in that the Luke account informed Jews and Christians how to behave in 70 A.D. while Matthew’s is the end of days event. Luke’s is aboout surrounding the city with Titus’s Roman army. Matthew’s is about surrounding the world (with focus on Jerusalem).


13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The mark is literal.
It is place “in” the in a irremovable way.
It is to be in the right hand because the right side equates directly to the implementing of the will and power of the head.


13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

There are three ways to use the computer mercantile system of the beast.
Two of them are the choices afforded the wise Christians whereby they can use the system and escape notice.
If you know the name (password) or the number (password) of the beast.

The reason Lucifer uses the “mark” is because it is his true name and therefore is the identifier of all he possesses before God.
The name is a number because the system uses numbers within itself and not letters. Even at this moment without any regard to occultic numerology we all have a number equalling our name. That number is used in the computer whenever we type our name in. The number is a translation of the name into the matris of the idol/mercantile system


13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

The time is short and we all need to get this understanding.

Joman.

ross3421
Oct 5th 2006, 02:14 AM
This is the other beast.
He doesn’t come up out of the sea. Instead he comes up out of the earth.
The dragon, who is also named Satan, the Serpent, and the Devil is the one that was shown to have been cast out into the earth.
Therefore, this beast is Lucifer himself.
The other beast is his son.


Amen. I have been trying to show this very thing to those on this thread for some time.....The counterfeit; father/son.

Understanding the counterfeit allows you to understand Revelation.



This beast has two horns unlike the other which is a little horn.
The two horns describe the ability to catch creatures between two forces and force their compliance to the will of the beast having the two horns.


Actually the two horns represent his origin or his counterfeit origin; the two tribes of the house of Judah. Christ is also a Lamb from Judah and thus has two horns as well.

The other 10 horns in the first beast are the remaining 10 tribes of Israel.




He will perform the lying wonder based upon using space laser technology and atmospheric holography.


He will be able to call fire from heaven, is it a certain technology perhaps. The key is understanding WHAT this fire represents and WHERE this fire lands. In the OT fire was called down from heaven and it filed the sanctuary and then the glory of the Lord was there and spoke.

Same thing here in chapter 13, the AC calls fire from heaven it fills the sanctuary and then a voice which is alive and speaks. i.e as the imgage of God has spoken in times past and will in the future Kingdom.



He will lead the astounded believers (seeing is believing for the lost) to make an image to the beast.
Image= I-mage. It is the secret occult doctrine of imagination. I-Mage-Nation (a imagined nation of imagining peoples) the doctrine is as follows…
1. I: comes first. (whatever I want)
2. Mage: magical use of ritual and words in intimate conjunction with a retained mental image within the mind.


Remeber the counterfeit. The image of the beast will be likened to the image of God. The image in which those on the earth will build is the sanctuary. See my thread which I will bumped up.




The fake ressurection of the first beast is the main impetus that convinces the lost to worship the beast.
Satan in disguise as the lamb like false prophet leaves this establishing of worship to no one else.



There is not a fake resurrection. As the head of God Christ was also wounded unto death but then again lives so too will Satan and his kingdom will have a head wounded but then will rise again in the second beast. The head wounded is the Lion which will become the lamb. Sounds familiar.



Starting in Jerusalem the murder spree will commence. All who are in their homes will be seen by the idol (machine) and anyone leaving will be killed. If you’re on the house top you mustn’t go into the house. If your in the field you musn’t go back to the house. If you’re in the house you must run.away immediately. The right thing to do is observe Daniel and don’t be home when it happens. That is the advantage of wisdom. Jesus’ commands in this matter must be carefully understood and followed. Tahe fulfillment will be literal. By the way, many of you need to realize that Luke’s account of the Olivet discourse is different than Matthew’s. It is different in that the Luke account informed Jews and Christians how to behave in 70 A.D. while Matthew’s is the end of days event. Luke’s is aboout surrounding the city with Titus’s Roman army. Matthew’s is about surrounding the world (with focus on Jerusalem).

It will be as in the time of God and his Kingdom those without the Mark will be killed and cast into the fire as Daniel parrallels. It will be a counterfeit, no machines ect....





The mark is literal.
It is place “in” the in a irremovable way.
It is to be in the right hand because the right side equates directly to the implementing of the will and power of the head.


I say the forehead equates to Israel while the right hand signifies the gentile born again believers i.e the overcomers of the church.





The name is a number because the system uses numbers within itself and not letters. Even at this moment without any regard to occultic numerology we all have a number equalling our name. That number is used in the computer whenever we type our name in. The number is a translation of the name into the matris of the idol/mercantile system


666 relates to man just as is 144.

Re 13:18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Re 21:17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.


As 144 relates to a man and a measure of the city so too does 666 as it is the measure of the sanctuary. A thread to be out shortly.

Mark.

Bick
Oct 5th 2006, 05:05 AM
Well, while it is true that many figures of speech are used in the Bible, yet language is too clear in Rev.13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." AV

Also in vs.13:16 and 17: "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads; And that no man might might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

Language is too plain that the beast, will have power over all the world.

Bick

MattHenry
Oct 5th 2006, 11:59 AM
Yes, the two horned beast kingdom is the false prophet. While we agree that the Bible defines beasts as kingdoms or empires, I believe you would be hard pressed indeed to demonstrate where the Bible defines the false prophet as a kingdom.
In Revelation 19, it says that the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Do you think the two horned beast will somehow escape this fate? Notice the similarities between the two:

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: - Revelation 13:11-16

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. - Revelation 19:20

I underlined the text related to the two-horned beast in Revelation 13 that lines up with what is said about the false prophet in Revelation 19. If you think that a false prophet couldn't be a kingdom then perhaps you should remember that you believe the two witnesses, which are also called two prophets, are the Church.
You have your beasts confused. If you notice in Rev 13, the image that 2 horns facilitates is of the first beast - the LBL. The people worship the image of the first LBL beast, not the second 2 horned beast.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. [Pope's crusades were called Christian but raped pillaged and plundered]
Rev 13:12 And he [2 horn] exerciseth all the power of the first beast [LBL - Islam] before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,[LBL - Islam] whose deadly wound was healed.[LBL mortally wounded in first Jihad in Tours France in 732]
Rev 13:13 And he [2 horn] doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, [this could be a reference to the artillery of the British Mandate - not necessarily gulf war 1]
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he [2 horn] had power to do in the sight of the beast [LBL - Islam]; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image [second Jihad, 20th century repowered Islam] to the beast,[LBL - Islam] which had the wound by a sword, and did live. [LBL mortally wounded in first Jihad in Tours France in 732]
Rev 13:15 And he [2 horn] had power to give life unto the image of the beast,[LBL - Islam - Jihad given life through Western oil purchase] that the image of the beast [LBL - Islam - Today's Islam and 2nd Jihad] should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. [Image of LBL - killed by beheading and even crucifixion - today. Islam is in nearly 100% control in the Middle East - John's whole earth]
Rev 13:16 And he [2 horned] causeth all,[caused by healing the LBL beast] both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast,[LBL beast - Islam] or the number of his [LBL beast - Islam] name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:[LBL beast]for it is the number of a man;[Mohammed] and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

http://www.66619.org/thequran.htm
http://www.66619.org/

The first beast is stated matter-of-factly as what is worshipped.
I believe that the LBL beast is seated in the same territory as Daniel's lion, bear and leopard empires which today are Iraq, Iran, and Syria
All, except Muslims, agree that Mohammed is a false prophet. It seems so absurd to me today to believe other than that he is THE false prophet as to be absurd.
A billion and a half Muslims are exactly and specifically antichrist by religion.
They built an abomination on the temple mount.
They changed times by creating their own calendar.
They blasphemed Yahweh God's name by renaming Him Al_ah.
They mark themselves 666.

But doctrine prevents 98% of the Chruch from seeing this because it doesn't fit false eschatology.

John146
Oct 5th 2006, 01:11 PM
While we agree that the Bible defines beasts as kingdoms or empires, I believe you would be hard pressed indeed to demonstrate where the Bible defines the false prophet as a kingdom.

I believe I showed you clearly that the two-horned beast and the false prophet are one and the same. Again, does the two-horned beast somehow avoid getting tossed into the lake of fire? Do you not see the similarities in the description of the two-horned beast in Revelation 13 and the description of the false prophet in Revelation 19?



You have your beasts confused. If you notice in Rev 13, the image that 2 horns facilitates is of the first beast - the LBL. The people worship the image of the first LBL beast, not the second 2 horned beast.

You must have not read my post very carefully. NOWHERE did I say that people worship the image of the 2-horned beast. The 2-horned beast gets people to worship the image of the first beast.



It seems so absurd to me today to believe other than that he is THE false prophet as to be absurd.

What's absurd to me is that you cannot see that the two-horned beast is one and the same as the false prophet. Or is it just a coincidence that the description of the two-horned beast and the description of the false prophet are so similar? For example, Revelation 19 says the false prophet "wrought MIRACLES before the first beast". Revelation 13 says the two-horned beast "deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those MIRACLES which he had power to do in the sight of the beast".



But doctrine prevents 98% of the Chruch from seeing this because it doesn't fit false eschatology.


You follow the doctrine of Ellis Skolfield. How are you any different? My doctrine doesn't come from any man or church.

MattHenry
Oct 5th 2006, 02:18 PM
I believe I showed you clearly that the two-horned beast and the false prophet are one and the same. At least your view can be credited with being unique.
Again, does the two-horned beast somehow avoid getting tossed into the lake of fire? All the lost will be tossed into the lake of fire. The first beast, the LBL beast, is what gets tossed into the lake of fire with its false prophet - Mohammed.
Do you not see the similarities in the description of the two-horned beast in Revelation 13 and the description of the false prophet in Revelation 19?Even if I did any similarity would be irrelevant. I showed you what IS. They worship the first beast. That's what scripture says. Period.


You must have not read my post very carefully. NOWHERE did I say that people worship the image of the 2-horned beast. The 2-horned beast gets people to worship the image of the first beast.
Through healing the wound of the first beast - Islam - with oil purchase. And it is the people (Muslims - kingdom beast of Islam seated in Iraq, Iran and Syria) and their false prophet Mohammed that get tossed into the lake of fire.


What's absurd to me is that you cannot see that the two-horned beast is one and the same as the false prophet.Did you ever stop to wonder why it is that this understanding is so unique?
Or is it just a coincidence that the description of the two-horned beast and the description of the false prophet are so similar? For example, Revelation 19 says the false prophet "wrought MIRACLES before the first beast". Revelation 13 says the two-horned beast "deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those MIRACLES which he had power to do in the sight of the beast".
So then I guess you are suggesting that there must just be a single reference to a group of miracles anywhere in scripture.


You follow the doctrine of Ellis Skolfield. How are you any different? My doctrine doesn't come from any man or church.You have certainly made that much more than abundantly clear through your most conspicuous misunderstanding.

False prophet will never equal kingdom. Sorry, that dog simply will not hunt.

John146
Oct 5th 2006, 02:51 PM
Even if I did any similarity would be irrelevant.

It becomes irrelevant to you because it doesn't support your view.



I showed you what IS. They worship the first beast. That's what scripture says. Period.

Again, where did I say they worship anyone but the first beast? You're creating an argument out of thin air.



Did you ever stop to wonder why it is that this understanding is so unique?

It's not really all that unique, but what's wrong with having a unique view, anyway? Do you think your view isn't unique?



False prophet will never equal kingdom. Sorry, that dog simply will not hunt.

So that means that your understanding of the two witnesses, who are also called two prophets, cannot be referring to the Church, but must be referring to two people, right? ;)

MattHenry
Oct 5th 2006, 03:13 PM
It becomes irrelevant to you because it doesn't support your view.

[/b]
No, its because I don't exegete scripture through presumption. All that does is create inconsistency.

Again, where did I say they worship anyone but the first beast? You're creating an argument out of thin air.
So then the first beast and everyone who worships it is OK and not going to the lake of fire? The LBL beast that everyone worships, and its image gets a pass? It's 2 horns that goes down for the count?


It's not really all that unique, but what's wrong with having a unique view, anyway? Considering the state of eschatology in the Church today perhaps nothing, as long as it is supportable with scripture.
Do you think your view isn't unique?

So that means that your understanding of the two witnesses, who are also called two prophets, cannot be referring to the Church, but must be referring to two people, right? ;)You seem to have missed the word "false" in reference to the beast's prophet.
The Bible defines the two witnesses of Rev. as the two olive trees and two candlesticks.

Or are you suggesting that your - kingdom false prophet - is the Christian and Jewish witness?

I believe I am done spending my time this way. We simply believe differently.

John146
Oct 5th 2006, 04:13 PM
No, its because I don't exegete scripture through presumption. All that does is create inconsistency.

Neither do I.



So then the first beast and everyone who worships it is OK and not going to the lake of fire? The LBL beast that everyone worships, and its image gets a pass? It's 2 horns that goes down for the count? Considering the state of eschatology in the Church today perhaps nothing, as long as it is supportable with scripture. You seem to have missed the word "false" in reference to the beast's prophet.

The beast AND the two-horned beast/false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire. I never said otherwise.



The Bible defines the two witnesses of Rev. as the two olive trees and two candlesticks.

And two prophets.

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. - Revelation 11:10



Or are you suggesting that your - kingdom false prophet - is the Christian and Jewish witness?

No, not at all.



I believe I am done spending my time this way. We simply believe differently.

So, you don't want your view to be challenged. Fine. I will honor that. I guess your mind is made up.

MattHenry
Oct 5th 2006, 07:55 PM
Neither do I. The beast AND the two-horned beast/false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire. I never said otherwise. And two prophets. You find a plural of beasts that get thrown in the lake of fire? Sorry I don't:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Got to put the buzzer on you again there. Sorry, no plural.
Your presumptions, based on nothing much beyond the word "miracles" used twice, of the term false prophet meaning a kingdom are absurd.

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. - Revelation 11:10 No, not at all.Then why try to obfuscate by bringing up the two prophets as though they had something to do with the false prophet?

So, you don't want your view to be challenged. Fine. I will honor that. I guess your mind is made up.You have not presented a challenge. When folks stray such a long distance from the truth it becomes too difficult to even begin. Sorry.

1.5 billion Muslims follow the false prophet of my eschatology. You can challenge that but it doesn't change this matter of fact. 1.5 billion Muslims follow the false prophet Mohammed. Your view is unique to you. You admit that. Perhaps you could help me with who shares your view in some kind of cohesive format, and even what it is. Just what is your false prophet=kingdom?

If it is anything like that last link you shared you can save it. The last guy simply turns the Bible into a bunch of hooey and nothingness while spiritualizing it away. Turns each and every word into a vacuum, obfuscating to avoid the truth. He clearly came into Revelation with a doctrine that the book makes unmanagable so he had to destroy every word he approached.

Generalizing lion bear and leopard of Daniel, for example, into being just as wild animals, and then not even acknowledging that these same beasts occur twice together in scripture. All the while making a claim to explain scripture with scripture. I thought I was going to throw up.

WHAT BEAST GETS WORSHIPPED? THE FIRST BEAST OR THE SECOND BEAST?
WHICH BEAST'S IMAGE GETS WORSHIPPED, THE FIRST BEAST OR THE SECOND BEAST?

What MAN is this a reference to in your eschatology?
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:[LBL beast]for it is the number of a man;[Mohammed] and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

John146
Oct 5th 2006, 10:30 PM
You find a plural of beasts that get thrown in the lake of fire? Sorry I don't:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Got to put the buzzer on you again there. Sorry, no plural.
Your presumptions, based on nothing much beyond the word "miracles" used twice, of the term false prophet meaning a kingdom are absurd.

I appreciate your humility, Matt. :rolleyes: The "miracles" reference was just one example. I posted both passages already and highlighted the similarities between the two. I don't know what else I can do.



Then why try to obfuscate by bringing up the two prophets as though they had something to do with the false prophet?

The point of bringing that up was to show that the word prophet in the book of Revelation could refer to more than just one single person. Understand now?



You have not presented a challenge. When folks stray such a long distance from the truth it becomes too difficult to even begin. Sorry.

Again, your humility is quite inspiring. :rolleyes:



If it is anything like that last link you shared you can save it. The last guy simply turns the Bible into a bunch of hooey and nothingness while spiritualizing it away. Turns each and every word into a vacuum, obfuscating to avoid the truth. He clearly came into Revelation with a doctrine that the book makes unmanagable so he had to destroy every word he approached.

Yeah, okay. And Skolfield has a monopoly on the truth, right? Keep worshiping Skolfield, Matt, if that's what you want to do. I don't follow after one man's doctrine. Everything I believe is a result of my own study with the leading of the Holy Spirit with a few insights from others as well. I don't believe it is wise to rely so heavily on one man's doctrine as you do with Skolfield.



WHAT BEAST GETS WORSHIPPED? THE FIRST BEAST OR THE SECOND BEAST?
WHICH BEAST'S IMAGE GETS WORSHIPPED, THE FIRST BEAST OR THE SECOND BEAST?

The first, as I already said.



What MAN is this a reference to in your eschatology?
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:[LBL beast]for it is the number of a man;[Mohammed] and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

I believe it is the number of man, not just a man.

ephraim
Oct 8th 2006, 05:16 AM
Well done.I almost never reply to a post. This one though deserves a commendation for being well though out and just plain full of common sense. Keep up the good work this is the best i have read in a long time. WOEphraim

Amrav
Oct 8th 2006, 09:37 PM
Hello, Midnight watcher.

Good points

I've been doing some studying on this and from what I've been able to gather it appears that AntiChrist will not rule over the whole literal world as many if not most of us have have been taught. The whole world will not blindly follow him as a charismatic, charming yet deceptive global leader of false peace, though he would love for that to happen. But before entering a quick reply of "but the Bible says all people and nations" or "Scripture clearly states the whole earth", let's consider a few things for a moment. If that were so, then here are a couple of questions:

1. Why does he need to wage war with the saints?
2. Why does he have to force his "mark"?
3. Why is he grieved when powerful ships from the west move against him? (Daniel 11)
4. Why do others wage war against him? (Daniel 11)
5. If he rules the world, then why do seven "good shepherds" raise up against him? (Micah 5)

I believe that the hand of AntiChrist will only stretch by and large over the known world of that time, i.e, the middle eastern world and perhaps the muslim world as a whole, where he will have his greatest influence. When we read in Scripture terms such as "whole earth" or "whole world", how should we understand it? Let's consider the following examples of a figure of speech that is often found in Scripture called a synecdoche. This is a figure of speech known as a synecdoche by which a part is put for the whole, or the whole for a part. It is used repeatedly in the Bible when only a part is meant. We often use it daily by saying things such as "the whole city was there last night," or "everybody in town was there." If we meant such a statement literally we would be telling a falsehood unless it could actually be provable.

Here are some examples in Scripture:

Eze 32:4 "Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee." In this verse, we would not say that every single animal all over the world is going to be eating the bodies of the fallen. It is impossible. 99.99% of the 'beasts of the earth' will be living elsewhere.

Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Obviously, we know that the faith of Christ was not spoken throughout the whole literal world at this time.

Luk 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." There was never a time when Caesar literally taxed all of the world.

1Ki 10:24 "And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart." Another example of hyperbole to make a point. The entire literal earth did not seek after Solomon's wisdom.

Dan 4:1 "Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." Nebuchadnezzar did not rule every single people and nation in the whole literal earth.


In the first Epistle of Clement, a first century Christian, the old world is spoken of as one earth (all connected as one land mass above sea level), but the "new world" we speak of is called another earth across the great ocean, which is accurate, as we now know today. He says it is like the world he lived in, obeying the same laws of nature, which is also correct. The whole earth, therefore, meant the whole "old world", where muslims did in deed take over almost every country for a time, from Spain to China! Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and Hindus all agree that islam - which is as antichrist as it comes (the CRUCIFIED is outright blasphemed in the quran) - tread dwon the earth and made it a wasteland in more than one way.

The Roman empire and some kingdoms besides were Christian, and muslims had to battle them for their lands, to rule them. For nearly going on 1400 years now, Christians in most old world countries have been suffering second class quality of life under islamic dominancy. As if the Prophets wouldn't mention this!

Many old worlders call the American world across the great ocean, which Clement wrote of, the "West". In more than one place, an evil power is described as coming from north, south, and east, but never west, and walls are described in Prophecy protecting from north, south, and east, but not from the west! islam has never dominated any part of the Americas!

Isaiah 19 mentions that Egypt would be threatened by Israel, yet goes on to speak of a deliverer coming out of Israel to rescue Egyptians! It is not a contradiction! The government over Egypt is what Israel shall threaten. It is peopled by non-ethnic Egyptians, who are Arabic muslims. Then it says that the people of Egypt (the Christian Copts) celebrate their Rite unto GOD, setting up what is both a pillar and an Altar - the Cross. They make a vow to GOD that results in their reconciliation with Assyrian Christians, and a deliverer from Israel saves them by fulfilling the threat on the nation's government. Assyrians are now oppressed in Iraq, their rightful homeland, by muslims. The West has sent an army to deal with Iraq.

The chapter also says that Assyria will have a country of their own in that day, from which a highway will connect them to Egypt, and the two Christian bodies long split up over the Monophysite/Nestorian split, will again worship together. This deliverer from Israel is that rider on a whit horse mentioned in the seals section of the Apocalypse of John. Constantine also fulfilled that role to some degree, but the man in Isaiah 19 does so near the time Assyria gets back on its feet, and when the state of Israel is still largely the returned diaspora of Jews, as opposed to all of Isreal's tribes. It says both Judah and Israel in the passage here - just as Israel today is really the returned exiles of the former kingdom of Judah.

Many falsely say the horse on the white rider is himself antichrist - but based on nothing but their prejudice against the idea of Saints fulfilling what GOD promised through Moses, that in doing right, the People of GOD would eventually be the head, not the tail, lend to nations, not borrow, and be on top, not beneath. The rider does not take on even a single diadem to honor himself, but has the Martyr's crown. He is given dominion, and decribed as resembling things later attributed to CHRIST, minus the Divinity and acceptance of many Crowns accordingly.

While it says that three kings were uprooted to give place to the little horn, here in Isaiah 19, Egypt, Assyria, and Israel are raised up as three nations to bless all the earth, after it has suffered for so long.

I would say that not just the MIddle East suffers from islam. Europe, like the kings that give their power to the beast, is for some reason bending over in subserviance to the growing numbers of muslims in their borders. Chechnians still oppress Caucasian nations. Indonesians oppress Christians in East Timor. Tailand was just taken over by muslims. Hindus are accosted in India by muslims, and Pakistan is rife with their militance, as is much of Afghanistan still.



The word "all" in these scriptures is talking about everyone that he is able to get his hands on. In reality the Antichrist will be fighting wars "in the name of peace and justice" until the time of Armageddon. In order to force everyone in the literal earth to take the "mark" or worship him, he will first have to conquer them, but he won't be able to. The AntiChrist will be fighting a war for the whole last 3.5 years of the tribulation period (See Dan 9:26b, "..unto the end of the war desolations are determined"). Since he will be fighting other nations, it will be impossible for him to be the leader of the whole literal earth. In order for him to be the leader of the world he would first have to conquer every nation and every person in the world. He will never be able to accomplish this. He will fight wars right up to the Battle of Armageddon. This also proves that he will not make every single person in the world take the mark of the Beast (in my opinion, force them to submit to Islam). He would have to first conquer their nations and the world in order to enforce it, but like so many before him, he will fail.

What do you think?

For more reading on this, please visit this website (http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/faq_antichrist.html).
Makes a lot of sense.

Amrav
Oct 8th 2006, 10:10 PM
Scripture tells us that AntiChrist does not, or is unable to, control "Edom" and "Moab", which is now modern day Jordan. This is proof enough that AntiChrist does not rule the whole world.

Daniel 11:41, "He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon."

Could this not mean the peoples by those names? Perhaps true Edomites, Moabites, and Ammonites are absent from their homelands, enjoying the freedoms their escape afforded them in exile. Many think that there are only Arabs in their rightful homelands now, and have no idea what happened to those non-Arabic Hebrew peoples. But, regardless of where the peoples are, your point illustrates that they escaped capture nonetheless.



AntiChrist becomes indignant because he is humiliated in front of all of these other nations. Daniel said that he would have indignation against the Holy Covenant, which is acknowledging Israel's right to possess the land and be a nation. This indignation toward this covenant simply means that he regrets ever signing the treaty with Israel. Now that these western powers put him to shame, this makes him even more indignant. He begins to contact the other countries that he his previously made agreements with (mostly Islamic nations that he is given authority over), and from this point on it is war up until the end of the tribulation.

Also consider that in Micah 5:2-6 we read of seven "shephards" that come to Israel's rescue during the Tribulation.

Micah 5:2-6 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders."

These scriptures out of Micah are telling us that out of Israel would come the Messiah (Jesus). That the Assyrian (AntiChrist) would invade Israel. When this happens Jesus would raise up seven shepherds (nations) and eight principal men (the first 7 are the leaders of the seven nations, the eighth is Christ Himself perhaps?).

Here the "Assyrian", as with the "Egypt" that is threatened in Isaiah 19, is not an ethnic one, but one in political power over that country he is named for. There are in Zechariah chapter 4 mention of Seven Eyes of YAHWEH which run to and fro through the whole earth. This is linked to earlier mention of Seven Lights with Seven Channels leading to them. Since the LORD doesn't recieve enlightenment or Anointing from HIS Servants, these must be seven anointed by HIM to be HIS Eyes. In the Old world, there are various Christian Rites that have Churches all over the world. These have all suffered much under islam, and it may be that their leaders under CHRIST may one day use the Authority given them to bind and to loose on earth as in heaven a long anticipated battle plan, so that victory is won be men committed to GOD. Eight principal men could be eight rulers restored to power as Christian monarchs. As a side note, they are said to destroy Nimrod's land (including Bavel), and in connection with the Seven Eyes of the LORD Zechariah writes of Zerubbavel, whose name means "Seed of Bavel". BUt there is more to this than I have described, though, without that further description, it might just appear that I added unnescessary speculations to a more solidly laid out suggestion.

Prodigal Son
Oct 9th 2006, 04:09 PM
Matt, to suggest that Christians are the man of sin/son of perdition/that Wicked is absolutely ridiculous.
How's so? [Luke 23:21],[Mark 15:13]


So, I guess you think that there will be Christians that "the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"?
[Luke 6:46],[Matthew 7:21-22]

Prodigal Son

John146
Oct 9th 2006, 04:48 PM
How's so? [Luke 23:21],[Mark 15:13]


[Luke 6:46],[Matthew 7:21-22]

Prodigal Son

I was talking about true Christians, not people who think they are Christians but are not.

Prodigal Son
Oct 9th 2006, 05:41 PM
I was talking about true Christians, not people who think they are Christians but are not. I observe that many do not, as you have, make that distinction and consequently overlook introspection in the search to identify the antichrist.
[1 Corinthians 3:16-17]

Prodigal Son

MattHenry
Oct 10th 2006, 05:14 PM
I appreciate your humility, Matt. :rolleyes: The "miracles" reference was just one example. I posted both passages already and highlighted the similarities between the two. I don't know what else I can do.
You already did it as far as I can tell. You came into Revelation with preconceived notions that you found were unsupported and so attempt to change the book to suit. Like what you are doing with the term "the false prophet".



The point of bringing that up was to show that the word prophet in the book of Revelation could refer to more than just one single person. Understand now?
Of course not. The false prophet refers to the false prophet. "The" is a definite article. I find only 3 references in scripture and they are all in Revelation.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 16:13 kai <2532> {AND} eidon <1492> (5627) {I SAW} ek <1537> {OUT OF} tou <3588> {THE} stomatoV <4750> {MOUTH} tou <3588> {OF THE} drakontoV <1404> {DRAGON,} kai <2532> {AND} ek <1537> {OUT OF} tou <3588> {THE} stomatoV <4750> {MOUTH} tou <3588> {OF THE} qhriou <2342> {BEAST,} kai <2532> {AND} ek <1537> {OUT OF} tou <3588> {THE} stomatoV <4750> {MOUTH} tou <3588> {OF THE} yeudoprofhtou <5578> {FALSE PROPHET,} pneumata <4151> {SPIRITS} tria <5140> {THREE} akaqarta <169> {UNCLEAN} omoia <3664> {LIKE} batracoiV <944> {FROGS;}

Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 19:20 kai <2532> {AND} epiasqh <4084> (5681) {WAS TAKEN} to <3588> {THE} qhrion <2342> {BEAST,} kai <2532> {AND} meta <3326> {WITH} toutou <5127> {HIM} o <3588> {THE} yeudoprofhthV <5578> {FALSE PROPHET} o <3588> {WHO} poihsaV <4160> (5660) {WROUGHT} ta <3588> {THE} shmeia <4592> {SIGNS} enwpion <1799> {BEFORE} autou <846> {HIM,} en <1722> {BY} oiV <3739> {WHICH} eplanhsen <4105> (5656) {HE MISLED} touV <3588> {THOSE WHO} labontaV <2983> (5631) {RECEIVED} to <3588> {THE} caragma <5480> {MARK} tou <3588> {OF THE} qhriou <2342> {BEAST,} kai <2532> {AND} touV <3588> {THOSE WHO} proskunountaV <4352> (5723) {DO HOMAGE} th <3588> eikoni <1504> autou <846> {TO HIS IMAGE.} zwnteV <2198> (5723) {ALIVE} eblhqhsan <906> (5681) {WERE CAST} oi <3588> {THE} duo <1417> {TWO} eiV <1519> {INTO} thn <3588> {THE} limnhn <3041> tou <3588> {LAKE} puroV <4442> {OF FIRE} thn <3588> {WHICH} kaiomenhn <2545> (5746) {BURNS} en <1722> tw <3588> {WITH} qeiw <2303> {BRIMSTONE;}

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 20:10 kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> {THE} diaboloV <1228> {DEVIL} o <3588> {WHO} planwn <4105> (5723) {MISLEADS} autouV <846> {THEM} eblhqh <906> (5681) {WAS CAST} eiV <1519> {INTO} thn <3588> {THE} limnhn <3041> tou <3588> {LAKE} puroV <4442> {OF FIRE} kai <2532> {AND} qeiou <2303> {OF BRIMSTONE,} opou <3699> {WHERE [ARE]} to <3588> {THE} qhrion <2342> {BEAST} kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> {THE} yeudoprofhthV <5578> {FALSE PROPHET;} kai <2532> {AND} basanisqhsontai <928> (5701) {THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED} hmeraV <2250> {DAY} kai <2532> {AND} nuktoV <3571> {NIGHT} eiV <1519> {FOR} touV <3588> {THE} aiwnaV <165> {AGES} twn <3588> {OF THE} aiwnwn <165> {AGES.}





Again, your humility is quite inspiring. :rolleyes:


Yeah, okay. And Skolfield has a monopoly on the truth, right? Keep worshiping Skolfield, Matt, if that's what you want to do. I don't follow after one man's doctrine.What Skolfield teaches best is how to study scripture. Are you afraid you might learn something if you read a free book? And as I mentioned before, 1.5 billion Muslims follow the false prophet of my eschatology. They call Mohammed their prophet. They worship him and his specific antichrist religion.
Everything I believe is a result of my own studyThis became evermore apparent as of late.
with the leading of the Holy Spirit You may believe you are lead, and perhaps you are, just as all the others that regurgetate this same claim in Christian forums, including those that call the Pope the antichrist, but when you hold such a distinctly unique and unsupportable view as you recently expressed, you would also have to conclude that you are perhaps one of the only persons on earth that you have ever heard of, that the Holy Spirit has led to believe that the 2 horned beast = the false prophet, and this based solely on some similarities you find in a couple of verses.
with a few insights from others as well. I don't believe it is wise to rely so heavily on one man's doctrine as you do with Skolfield.

[/b]

The first, as I already said.



I believe it is the number of man, not just a man.

napsnsnacks
Dec 20th 2006, 06:00 AM
"Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?"

It is possible that that the rule of the antichrist may be localized in the mid east and here is my theory, note I said theory.

This theory, note I said theory, blows two other theories out of the water and that is the mark of the beast by the method of technological implant (microchips) and ultraviolet tattooing read by a laser powered UPC (Universal Product Code) scanner.

I got the population numbers here (they haven't updated the US to three hundred million so I did in my figures):

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

China population 1,313,973,713
USA population 300,000,000
Canada population 33,098,932
Russia population 142,893,540
Mexico population 107,449,525

So according to Windows calculator:

1,313,973,713
300,000,000
33,098,932
142,893,540
+ 107,449,525
_______________
1,897,415,710

And taking into account that there are 31,536,000 seconds in 1 year.
So 1,897,415,710 being the total population of ONLY 5 of the larger nations divided by 31,536,000 = 60.166657470826991374936580416023 or 60 years is close enough.

Plus I used this conversion tool

http://www.onlineconversion.com/time.htm

to convert 1,897,415,710 seconds into what that would come out to be in years and got

1,897,415,710 seconds = 60.1666575 years.

So I surmise based on these figures, ad the advent of antichrist, that even if one person per second were tagged with a microchip or if one person per second had a "mark" imprinted upon their forehead or hand it would take 60 years to give the people of China, USA, Canada, Russia, Mexico the "mark of the beast."

It is already settled that it will be a literal mark connected to commerce public and private.

Plus it is THE antichrist that has to do this, give the order and institute this system.

Plus overall he only is given a 7 year period to accomplish what he does from beginning to end and this includes...

REV 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
REV 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Plus I ONLY did 5 of the larger nations.

Plus count out the christians of these populations either by rapture or by still being here and refusing the mark (I do not argue the rapture). In subtracting them, add in the populations of the other hoard of nations I omitted and still the years come out to be staggering for this marking to be accomplished.

All in all it is safe to say that it would easily take far better than 60 years for the mark of the beast to be instituted physically even if 1 person was marked per second.

Since I am all into the interpretation of the literal mark I have reason to believe that these matters may be localized on a global scale to the peoples of the mid east.

After all that is where the antichrist will be headquartered anyway.

Comments?

ross3421
Dec 20th 2006, 01:19 PM
It is possible that that the rule of the antichrist may be localized in the mid east and here is my theory, note I said theory.



The AC will rule the "whole" world. But what will this world look like? Will it be like we know it today? Scripture says no..........It will be the whole world but localized to the mideast.

The key is to understand Babylon is in the midst of a wilderness ie a place of desolation. So prior to the AC appearence the world goes through a major transformation, understandably he will arise out of much chaos, war, pestilence as will the one he is counterfeiting.

So basically there will be a central grand city, Babylon, with it's inhabinants and those living outside around the city. Beyond that there is a wilderness to start, the picture is much like the Kingdom of God.

There will be no need for computer chips ect..... I doubt there will even be this technology at this time as will be the case in God's kingdom. The people remaining in each kingdom will be able to buy and sell because they are remaining as those who have opposed are done away. The "buying and selling" which will occur is not with currency ect... but a "barter" system whereas those you live outside the kingdom will sell (barter) there goods for others. The kicker is that for those which live inside the kingdom (those apart from the remnant of Israel, the church) it will not cost us a dime as we have this reward.



Mark

jesuslover1968
Dec 20th 2006, 05:40 PM
All in all it is safe to say that it would easily take far better than 60 years for the mark of the beast to be instituted physically even if 1 person was marked per second.


The biggest problem that I see with your calculations is that it seems you're going by one person per second, and for that reasoning, you are probably correct. What I believe you did not take into account is that there will probably be more than one marking center for each country, in fact, there will probably be thousands. Think of it in terms like this...you go into Wal-mart and stand in line with your grocery shopping and you have say...120 items in your basket. You probably have to wait in line for a few minutes, but when you get to the counter, your basket is emptied and tallied in less than 10 to 15 minutes. As well as the fact that there are multiple lines in each store. The system you are speaking of will be even quicker than that. With thousands of these type marking centers, the process would be far quicker than you calculate. We also have to take into account what Rev. says about the mark...
REVELATIONS 13:13-18

13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

According to scripture, all denotes all, not just those in the Middle east. I believe if that were the case, then the specific places where this would take place would have been mentioned. As the final battle that ensues takes place with all nations involved, that leaves little doubt that the system of the anti-Christ will be a world-wide endeavor. God Bless.

napsnsnacks
Dec 20th 2006, 09:17 PM
The biggest problem that I see with your calculations is that it seems you're going by one person per second, and for that reasoning, you are probably correct. What I believe you did not take into account is that there will probably be more than one marking center for each country, in fact, there will probably be thousands. Think of it in terms like this...you go into Wal-mart and stand in line with your grocery shopping and you have say...120 items in your basket. You probably have to wait in line for a few minutes, but when you get to the counter, your basket is emptied and tallied in less than 10 to 15 minutes. As well as the fact that there are multiple lines in each store. The system you are speaking of will be even quicker than that. With thousands of these type marking centers, the process would be far quicker than you calculate.

These calculations are easily adapted to not just 1 person per second but to 2, 3, 4 to infinity or until one gets to negative numbers or an amout of people being marked in one second that would plausibly fit in between the two 3 1/2 years spans of antichrist's rule because he institutes this I believe at the end of the first 3 1/2 years.

Bear in mind I only mention 5 of the higher nations.

So far there are 228 countries and "areas" of the world resulting in approximately 6,570,210,473 people and growing.

http://www.unfpa.org/6billion/

So, you have a calculator and you can do research and in my previous post is the data needed so that you can substantiate your claim that it is possible that this will be a world wide thing and that antichrist has time to do this within not 7 years, but only a fraction of that.

When I proposed my theory, I offered as fodder for anyone who is interested, I backed it up with facts and figures for discussion.

You discount my theory on your word alone, an assumption.

Please do the math and demonstrate that what you say is possible because your rebuttal is welcome of course but you need to substaniate your position. Just casually disregarding my theory by blowing it off isn't sufficient to discredit it.

I have no need to do this further research because I'm not objecting to my theory so this is your responsibility.

jesuslover1968
Dec 20th 2006, 10:22 PM
These calculations are easily adapted to not just 1 person per second but to 2, 3, 4 to infinity or until one gets to negative numbers or an amout of people being marked in one second that would plausibly fit in between the two 3 1/2 years spans of antichrist's rule because he institutes this I believe at the end of the first 3 1/2 years.

Bear in mind I only mention 5 of the higher nations.

So far there are 228 countries and "areas" of the world resulting in approximately 6,570,210,473 people and growing.

http://www.unfpa.org/6billion/

So, you have a calculator and you can do research and in my previous post is the data needed so that you can substantiate your claim that it is possible that this will be a world wide thing and that antichrist has time to do this within not 7 years, but only a fraction of that.

When I proposed my theory, I offered as fodder for anyone who is interested, I backed it up with facts and figures for discussion.

You discount my theory on your word alone, an assumption.

Please do the math and demonstrate that what you say is possible because your rebuttal is welcome of course but you need to substaniate your position. Just casually disregarding my theory by blowing it off isn't sufficient to discredit it.

I have no need to do this further research because I'm not objecting to my theory so this is your responsibility.

haha. Wow...apparently you feel offended at my post. It was not intended to offend at all. Just to make it plain that it could happen.
And as my answer, I used scripture to substantiate what I was saying, and I do not feel that anything more is needed. The Word of God is the beginning, middle and final authority on substantiating anything. :) God Bless.

napsnsnacks
Dec 20th 2006, 11:22 PM
haha. Wow...apparently you feel offended at my post. It was not intended to offend at all. Just to make it plain that it could happen.
And as my answer, I used scripture to substantiate what I was saying, and I do not feel that anything more is needed. The Word of God is the beginning, middle and final authority on substantiating anything. :) God Bless.

I wasn't offended. Didn't mean it to sound that way. My apologies.

I agree God says it will happen but one must also allow and accomodate time for this things to come to pass.

God is not going to speed up time or reverse time or make time stand still since your position could only mean that.

You are putting a gallon of water in a pint bottle and that doesn't even work with God because He can do that yes, but won't and has no reason to. He could also wipe out evil in the blink of an eye but He doesn't and don't and won't.

So you taking the proper assumption that God, if He wanted to, could cram all of this labeling of the peoples of the earth by the antichrist with the mark of the beast onto the applicable peoples of the earth in comparison to what would be the blink of an eye not only defies the laws of physics but also common sense.

Once God set time in our temporal world in motion He hasn't changed it for prophecy or without prophecy.

There also other tantamount material things that antichrist is assigned to do that cannot be crammed into 7 years without "magic" so to speak.

Example: Do you know what it takes to become the ruler of the world in three ways collectively such as politically, religiously and financially?

Do you think that this situation appears prefabricated all the sudden like magic at the rapture?

Rapture or no rapture how many years or decades will believers be all to aware of antichrists presence person and work before the church disappears or the church goes through the tribulation?

The antichrist will be a man in a material world subject to time and the time required to accomplish such tasks.

If the antichrist is not in power at the day of the rapture and already well know by believers, how many years or decades will it take after the rapture and after the catostrophic effects that the rapture will have on the world for antichrist who will be subject to a material world and time to work his way up to be world ruler?

Is there a huge time gap between the rapture and antichrists day of becoming world ruler?

Given the traditional teaching that the rapture is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation how many years or decades did believers know of antichrists person and work for him to assume world power on the day of the rapture?

Time is a rule and the time needed to achieve certain things is also a rule that cannot be ignored.

jesuslover1968
Dec 21st 2006, 01:10 AM
I wasn't offended. Didn't mean it to sound that way. My apologies.
No apology needed. :hug:



I agree God says it will happen but one must also allow and accomodate time for this things to come to pass.

I agree. I just think they are already being put in place.


God is not going to speed up time or reverse time or make time stand still since your position could only mean that.


not necessarily. as I stated above, I think things are already in motion.



You are putting a gallon of water in a pint bottle and that doesn't even work with God because He can do that yes, but won't and has no reason to. He could also wipe out evil in the blink of an eye but He doesn't and don't and won't.

I don't think I am. I think I am just measuring the amount before I fill the bottle and not filling the bottle with too much or too little. :)


So you taking the proper assumption that God, if He wanted to, could cram all of this labeling of the peoples of the earth by the antichrist with the mark of the beast onto the applicable peoples of the earth in comparison to what would be the blink of an eye not only defies the laws of physics but also common sense.

I disagree. I think it will be done much quicker and in an apparently different way than you think. I think as I said above that the system is already in the works and it won't take as long.




Once God set time in our temporal world in motion He hasn't changed it for prophecy or without prophecy.


Just once that I know of. :)



There also other tantamount material things that antichrist is assigned to do that cannot be crammed into 7 years without "magic" so to speak.

Example: Do you know what it takes to become the ruler of the world in three ways collectively such as politically, religiously and financially?

Do you think that this situation appears prefabricated all the sudden like magic at the rapture?

Rapture or no rapture how many years or decades will believers be all to aware of antichrists presence person and work before the church disappears or the church goes through the tribulation?


I think you are not taking into consideration that it is a possibility that the anti-Christ is already alive and climbing his way up the ladder on the way to his destination. If you will look around, you can see that there really isn't much left to take over religiously, politically, nor monetarily that cannot be done in a pretty quick way.



The antichrist will be a man in a material world subject to time and the time required to accomplish such tasks.

I agree.


If the antichrist is not in power at the day of the rapture and already well know by believers, how many years or decades will it take after the rapture and after the catostrophic effects that the rapture will have on the world for antichrist who will be subject to a material world and time to work his way up to be world ruler?

I think I covered this already. :)


Is there a huge time gap between the rapture and antichrists day of becoming world ruler?

I don't think there will be.

Given the traditional teaching that the rapture is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation how many years or decades did believers know of antichrists person and work for him to assume world power on the day of the rapture?

I don't think he will. I think he will rise up because of the rapture and will be able to takeover in a world that is torn apart emotionally and financially.


Time is a rule and the time needed to achieve certain things is also a rule that cannot be ignored.

That is true. But we also have to be realistic. As I stated above, I believe he is already well on his way, and if not, when the time comes, he will already be in a position to take over and implement almost immediately after the rapture. :hug:
God Bless.

napsnsnacks
Dec 21st 2006, 06:44 AM
Just once that I know of. :) :hug:
God Bless.


I have always been interested in a cosmic explanation of that but there isn't one. In the mean time, right at the time in history that that happened, the event was recorded in different cultures around to world of this happening so it has to do with space and was global.

third hero
Dec 29th 2006, 12:12 PM
There is one fallacy that must be brouht up, if it has not already. Daniel 10-11 referrs to the third beast, which is one, and split in four. It doesn't go into detail about the fourth beast, and the prototype of the antichrist was mentioned by a large extent in Daniel 11. THis is not the same as the Beast in Revelation 13.

1. The little horn in Daniel refers to one of the Grecian generals who would take over a certain kingdom, and like Daniel had fortold, the little horn ended up taking over the part that housed Jerusalem.

2. Revelation is clear, all those whose names are not written in the book of life will take the mark, bow to the beast, and will marvel at him, saying who can make war with him, for he will be invincible, being unable to be slain.

3. The little horn in Daniel 11 does not control the entire world.

4. The beast will control the entire world, and will draw the kingdoms from the East to Megiddo to fight against the Returning King, (that;s Jesus for those who do not know).

5. The little horns meets his end, and no one could help him. And like clockwork, Antocchius Epiphanes met his end, and no one helped him.

6. THe Beast is thrown alive into the lake of Fire.

Daniel 10-12 has been fulfilled during the Hellenistic Wars, which the Maccabees won. The War against the Beast has not happened yet.

ross3421
Dec 30th 2006, 02:34 PM
[quote=third hero;1094865]There is one fallacy that must be brouht up, if it has not already. Daniel 10-11 referrs to the third beast, which is one, and split in four.

Da. 10:11 ??



1. The little horn in Daniel refers to one of the Grecian generals who would take over a certain kingdom,

The Grecian generals did not make war with the saints......

Da 7:21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Did a Grecian general do this? Note the 3.5 years.......

Da 7:25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Did a Grecian general cast some of the host (of heaven) to the ground?

Da 8:10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Was a daily sacrifice done away? Was his sanctuary cast down?

Da 8:11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Th,

Your wrong as wrong can be....... the little horn in Dan. IS the second beast of Rev. 13.

Mark.

third hero
Dec 30th 2006, 10:58 PM
I suggest you read up on the hellenistic wars, and the plight of the Maccabees. The Maccabees had to fight against not only the greeks, but also the hellenistic Jews, who betrayed God and their brothers to hold to the "freedoms" that the Greek mythology gave them. The Little horn was indeed Antocchius Epiphanes.

I am not going to cast judgment yet; maybe you have not heard of Simon and Judas Maccabeus. Read up on Antochius Epiphanes, and the Maccabee brothers, and the war between the four nations that were once one, and see what I am talking about.

Revelation is clear, those who's names are not written in the book of life will worship the beast, his false prophet, and take the mark. This includes the entire world. Daniel chapters 10 and 11 go into detail about Alexander the great, which is the third beast in the dream that Nebachadnezzar had, how he would divide the kingdom, and the infighting between the four kingdoms until Antocchius Epiphanes steps into the world stage. Antocchius is what we call the precursor to the real Beast, who will indeed rule the entire world.

napsnsnacks
Dec 31st 2006, 04:17 PM
I suggest you read up on the hellenistic wars, and the plight of the Maccabees. The Maccabees had to fight against not only the greeks, but also the hellenistic Jews, who betrayed God and their brothers to hold to the "freedoms" that the Greek mythology gave them. The Little horn was indeed Antocchius Epiphanes.

I am not going to cast judgment yet; maybe you have not heard of Simon and Judas Maccabeus. Read up on Antochius Epiphanes, and the Maccabee brothers, and the war between the four nations that were once one, and see what I am talking about.

Revelation is clear, those who's names are not written in the book of life will worship the beast, his false prophet, and take the mark. This includes the entire world. Daniel chapters 10 and 11 go into detail about Alexander the great, which is the third beast in the dream that Nebachadnezzar had, how he would divide the kingdom, and the infighting between the four kingdoms until Antocchius Epiphanes steps into the world stage. Antocchius is what we call the precursor to the real Beast, who will indeed rule the entire world.

I was always told from youth and always believed that prophecy is or was written the way that it is, lots of imagery/cryptic because back then they had no way to describe what they were seeing in these various future time lines so they did the best they could with what little understanding and knowledge they had back then.

Even back then (as a child) the question arose, actually I asked it, that they never did or couldn't answer was, "Since they full well knew what leaders were and what governments were and could easily pen such a thing as they clearly did so in a million other places in the Bible for governmental leaders and governments and those who live in nations quite fluently without all the extravagant padding and mysteriousness that is found in prophecy, why refer to leaders as horns on beasts and and to the masses of people as seas, on and on and on?"

They had the knowledge and gammatical tools available to relate exactly what they saw in their visions in no uncertain terms so why all the indirectness when I can write in the same fashion about next weeks agenda but there would not be a living soul that would understand what I was saying.

It would be reasonable to talk the way they do if they were referring to things and machines that they had no concept or understanding of such as helicopters, submarines launching missles, fireballs in the sky from airborn nuclear blasts, soldiers with built in armor plating, stingers and other physical anomalies, strange creatures, a "weird" tattooed styled economic system, and a host of other things.

Take Daniel for instance. He had no problem in being forthright in point blank speech and understanding about a ruler he was all to familiar with Nebuchadnezzar or with his understanding and relation to time.

DAN 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

So why in prophecy would a leader be referred to as a horn and time as a season?

There must have been something preventing the prophets from using forthright speech in relating the things of prophecy as it would pertain to leaders and government and the peoples. One of those things could be they saw things they knew nothing of and had to inprovise.

Otherwise there still is the outstanding issue of why would they talk they way they do.

third hero
Jan 1st 2007, 12:44 AM
It is possible that that the rule of the antichrist may be localized in the mid east and here is my theory, note I said theory.

This theory, note I said theory, blows two other theories out of the water and that is the mark of the beast by the method of technological implant (microchips) and ultraviolet tattooing read by a laser powered UPC (Universal Product Code) scanner.

I got the population numbers here (they haven't updated the US to three hundred million so I did in my figures):

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

China population 1,313,973,713
USA population 300,000,000
Canada population 33,098,932
Russia population 142,893,540
Mexico population 107,449,525

So according to Windows calculator:

1,313,973,713
300,000,000
33,098,932
142,893,540
+ 107,449,525
_______________
1,897,415,710

And taking into account that there are 31,536,000 seconds in 1 year.
So 1,897,415,710 being the total population of ONLY 5 of the larger nations divided by 31,536,000 = 60.166657470826991374936580416023 or 60 years is close enough.

Plus I used this conversion tool

http://www.onlineconversion.com/time.htm

to convert 1,897,415,710 seconds into what that would come out to be in years and got

1,897,415,710 seconds = 60.1666575 years.

So I surmise based on these figures, ad the advent of antichrist, that even if one person per second were tagged with a microchip or if one person per second had a "mark" imprinted upon their forehead or hand it would take 60 years to give the people of China, USA, Canada, Russia, Mexico the "mark of the beast."

It is already settled that it will be a literal mark connected to commerce public and private.

Plus it is THE antichrist that has to do this, give the order and institute this system.

Plus overall he only is given a 7 year period to accomplish what he does from beginning to end and this includes...

REV 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
REV 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Plus I ONLY did 5 of the larger nations.

Plus count out the christians of these populations either by rapture or by still being here and refusing the mark (I do not argue the rapture). In subtracting them, add in the populations of the other hoard of nations I omitted and still the years come out to be staggering for this marking to be accomplished.

All in all it is safe to say that it would easily take far better than 60 years for the mark of the beast to be instituted physically even if 1 person was marked per second.

Since I am all into the interpretation of the literal mark I have reason to believe that these matters may be localized on a global scale to the peoples of the mid east.

After all that is where the antichrist will be headquartered anyway.

Comments?

This theory would blow the microchip and upc codes, if there is only one place implanting the mark. However, if there are over 20,000 centers in any particular area implanting the mark, then the time it ould take would greatly diminish. In other words, the beast will be able to subjugate the entire world in a short period of time.

third hero
Jan 1st 2007, 12:49 AM
I was always told from youth and always believed that prophecy is or was written the way that it is, lots of imagery/cryptic because back then they had no way to describe what they were seeing in these various future time lines so they did the best they could with what little understanding and knowledge they had back then.

Even back then (as a child) the question arose, actually I asked it, that they never did or couldn't answer was, "Since they full well knew what leaders were and what governments were and could easily pen such a thing as they clearly did so in a million other places in the Bible for governmental leaders and governments and those who live in nations quite fluently without all the extravagant padding and mysteriousness that is found in prophecy, why refer to leaders as horns on beasts and and to the masses of people as seas, on and on and on?"

They had the knowledge and gammatical tools available to relate exactly what they saw in their visions in no uncertain terms so why all the indirectness when I can write in the same fashion about next weeks agenda but there would not be a living soul that would understand what I was saying.

It would be reasonable to talk the way they do if they were referring to things and machines that they had no concept or understanding of such as helicopters, submarines launching missles, fireballs in the sky from airborn nuclear blasts, soldiers with built in armor plating, stingers and other physical anomalies, strange creatures, a "weird" tattooed styled economic system, and a host of other things.

Take Daniel for instance. He had no problem in being forthright in point blank speech and understanding about a ruler he was all to familiar with Nebuchadnezzar or with his understanding and relation to time.

DAN 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

So why in prophecy would a leader be referred to as a horn and time as a season?

There must have been something preventing the prophets from using forthright speech in relating the things of prophecy as it would pertain to leaders and government and the peoples. One of those things could be they saw things they knew nothing of and had to inprovise.

Otherwise there still is the outstanding issue of why would they talk they way they do.

There are things, like you said, are encrypted, but the incryptions are usually the same, and they tend to be used in almost every prophecy. A horn in any prophecy refers to a man with strength. A horn and a bow are usually used to represent strength. Even when Israel was not under captivity, the term "horn" was used.

When one sees a great multitude of people, one could get the impression that you are looking into the sea. So great were the numbers of people in their dreams and visions that the only thing that could possibly describe the sher numers isthe term sea.

Keep on reading and seeking understanding in God's prophecies. Ask of the Lord for understanding, and listen for His answer. Because you are a CHristian, seeking to follow Christ's commands, you fall under the promise that Jesus Christ Himself said in John 14:15-21. The Lord will lead you to all truth, as long as you listen to His Spirit.

napsnsnacks
Jan 1st 2007, 03:57 AM
This theory would blow the microchip and upc codes, if there is only one place implanting the mark. However, if there are over 20,000 centers in any particular area implanting the mark, then the time it ould take would greatly diminish. In other words, the beast will be able to subjugate the entire world in a short period of time.

How short? Please do the math and demonstrate. "Short period of time" isn't acceptable, is an assumption. I offered facts and figures. If you can't show that antichrist can accomplish this within a certain time frame then it is conjecture.

I related earlier in the thread:

These calculations are easily adapted to not just 1 person per second but to 2, 3, 4 to infinity or until one gets to negative numbers or an amout of people being marked in one second that would plausibly fit in between the two 3 1/2 years spans of antichrist's rule because he institutes this I believe at the end of the first 3 1/2 years.

Bear in mind I only mention 5 of the higher nations.

So far there are 228 countries and "areas" of the world resulting in approximately 6,570,210,473 people and growing.

http://www.unfpa.org/6billion/

So, you have a calculator and you can do research and in my previous post is the data needed so that you can substantiate your claim that it is possible that this will be a world wide thing and that antichrist has time to do this within not 7 years, but only a FRACTION of that.

Not to mention that this system or its infrastructure to even get started is not in place yet.

napsnsnacks
Jan 1st 2007, 04:22 AM
............Just like it is asking me to have blind faith in your assumptions that antichrist can do things of a physical nature that requie considerable amounts of physical time, in comparison, crammed into a few days without oneshred of proof except your "word."

Please don't take me for a fool or address me as if I was a naive child. I have been studying the Bible and prophecy all my life and my understanding of it allows me to prognosticate world current events that will come to pass with near 100% accuracy. People fear me for that and it is a lonely task that I go about with these ignorant and narrow minded people who say they are christians and students of the Bible accusing me of witchcraft and being in cahoots with the Devil in the exact same way that was done to Jesus.

You must understand that there is no rule that a person asks a question out of ignorance or that a person bring up a topic or issue because they desire to learn and you do err in assuming that a person does so out of ignorance because it is only a platform to seize the opportunity to belittle another.

Just the opposite, it is one of the traits of the learned but few recognize that because they trust in and have blind faith in anything that their "spiritual leaders" speak when my personal experience with such heads if so called spiritual institutions are blind guides and fools getting bloody rich on a massive group of victims who do not have the slightest idea what is going on as long as they are told what they want to hear and can buy Gods favor with money into the preachers hand they just eat up that lifestyle.

third hero
Jan 1st 2007, 01:30 PM
well, if you take your figures and figure into them that more than one person a second can recieve the mark if there are many conversion centers around the world, a critical error if I should say so, then maybe I will not treat you as a child. Most prophetic students know what the terms horn and seas mean, and that is just the basics.

Until you show me what experienced prophecy students have shown, then I wil label you as you are, a newbie. Now instead of coping an attitude, maybe you can learn sometyhing in meekness. After all, that is what all of us Christians are suppose to do, right? You asked a question, and I answered it, not that anyone in here could not, but then you speak in such a way with me? I have been studying prophecy for at least 9 years, and I may not be an expert, I am very knowledgable. Please keep that in mind the next time you decide to get lippy with me.

I do not handle disrespect very well.

napsnsnacks
Jan 1st 2007, 04:06 PM
well, if you take your figures and figure into them that more than one person a second can recieve the mark if there are many conversion centers around the world, a critical error if I should say so, then maybe I will not treat you as a child. Most prophetic students know what the terms horn and seas mean, and that is just the basics.

Until you show me what experienced prophecy students have shown, then I wil label you as you are, a newbie. Now instead of coping an attitude, maybe you can learn sometyhing in meekness. After all, that is what all of us Christians are suppose to do, right? You asked a question, and I answered it, not that anyone in here could not, but then you speak in such a way with me? I have been studying prophecy for at least 9 years, and I may not be an expert, I am very knowledgable. Please keep that in mind the next time you decide to get lippy with me.

I do not handle disrespect very well.

You are stuck at a certain point. You disagree with me but you cannot substantiate your disagreement. In that event you expect me to take your word for it.

I demonstrated that these things cannot be done in the time alloted. You deny my factual findings outright but you do not have anything to offer in you refutation that demonstrates that I am wrong except your word like, "I disagree," or "You're wrong."

A worthy student of Bible prophecy surely has more substance than that? It must be because wherever I go I must have my proof on the table and I have back up what I say (surely no one is going to take my word for it) so if it applies to me it also applies to you unless you want me to dismiss the facts and trust you.

That is not proof of anything except that you disagree.

I am only interested in the truth so if it can be demonstrated by anyone large or small that this theory of mine is unfounded I will be happy to dismiss it and I will not dismiss it on no more of a debate than, "Uh, you're wrong."

ScottJohnson
Jan 1st 2007, 04:43 PM
Discussions like this can be carried out without making a judgment call on someone else's level of prophetic understanding

Mograce2U
Jan 1st 2007, 05:21 PM
Looks like we have dueling prophets in here... ;)

napsnsnacks
Jan 1st 2007, 07:53 PM
We tend to take things for granted that we should not.

What we see going on in our minds concerning future events is OK but that is the same thing as getting up and visualizing today’s agenda and then here it comes late afternoon and are exhausted are half finished with what we intended to do this morning.

In our minds we had an image off all these places we are supposed to be and an image of the things that we will be doing, minus all the details in between images.

We had jammed a days worth of activities into a few seconds of thought, all the while we had the world by the tail.

This is what I on many occasions have seen going on with, and have had to stop and think about, this same process going on with prophecy.

One of the contributors to that was my study of all the different times in our history that it was the end of the world and Armageddon and antichrist and the beast and the false prophet all flying left and right but here we still are.

This left me with once conclusion, obviously they were wrong in assuming and preaching that it was the end of the world during the Civil War, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea and now Iraq and Afghanistan just like they are now preaching the end of the world tomorrow when little to nothing is in place to herald antichrists exposure much less the nations of the world in a position to gleefully disposing of their self rule to accommodate him or the nations having a systemic economic infrastructure to support the mark of the beast. Many times I readily see fear and paranoia fueling a lot of this.

I had to figure why they were wrong. It wasn't because they were liars. It wasn't because prophecy is a lie. It is because they were jamming a gallon of water in a one quart container and it got away from them in every instance because they did not allow enough container just like we do not stop to think to allow enough time just like they did not allow enough time.

We see all these things that are going to be as related in scripture but we don't allow a documented timeline. The images just fly by minus all the details.

Antichrist is going to do this, that, and that, and the other, and yet still another so we see am image of each one of these "things" but do not stop to think of what physical things that must be accomplished for that image to come to reality.

As the scriptures relates: We have an image of antichrist being world leader. We have an image of people milling around buying and selling with a mark on their foreheads/hand. We have an image of the temple being rebuilt. We have an image of antichrist standing in the temple proclaiming that he is God.

But we don't stop to think exactly what must come to pass in this world, physical things in our reality, that requires time to make these things possible.

To dismiss this is to leave it to happen the way Genie did things on I Dream of Genie or Samantha on Bewitched.

Genie and Samantha had no need to consider a physical timeline for anything because, poof, there it is, shopping is done, clean house, dinner on the table.

Prophecy has never come to pass this way nor will it. Prophecy may be way out there but it is still prophecy given to come to pass in a material world without the likes of "magic."

The book of Revelation was written approximately 7,000 years ago but we go about the business as if it will all happen tomorrow when there are not enough minutes in tomorrow to allow for it.

We have been taught these things by people who also inherited it from their predecessors, who did not step back and say, "Hey, wait a minute. It seems to be a monumental enough task just in becoming mayor, county commissioner or governor so let me for a minute put myself in antichrists shoes and desire to be one world leader. Wow."
Continued...

napsnsnacks
Jan 1st 2007, 09:07 PM
Time and events go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.
Time is a constant, events take time.

The scenario surrounding such things as prophecy has variables and tangents such as yes rapture or no rapture. I don't argue the rapture because it works out the same for me either way so I'm just like, "Hey, whatever floats your boat it's irrelevant to me." It is a denominational argument is all it is and has nothing to do with salvation.

First, yes rapture and the idea of prophecy being wrapped around the rapture:

Ok, Christ just came back a minute ago, all the graves broke open and the dead in Christ were resurrected and we all were taken out of here.

Now put yourself into the position of one left behind. Obviously with so many people vanishing into thin air there would be world wide chaos. More chaos in the more Christian inclined nations. Less chaos in the less Christian inclined nations.

China being the largest but least Christian of the largest nations obviously would have the upper hand on the world scene since their civilization would remain largely intact. America? Hopelessly down the tubes. You should not be offended at me saying that because what do you care? You won't be here right? Your need for a country will be solved so leave the unbelievers to their misery.

Anyway here you are looking at the world around you and knowing that all the nations are going on the move to seize the opportunity to further their national agendas such as acquiring real estate and expanding borders and acquiring resources. Yeah, war, and lot's of it.

Ask yourself, "Who is doing this?" The answer is the status quo of each of those nations are going about their agendas that is who is doing it. Where's antichrist?

Wasn't the day of the rapture to be the day the 7 year tribulation begins? OK then where is he?

Something is wrong with this picture isn't there? Uh hu. What?

A myriad of things were not in place for antichrist to be one world ruler at the time of the rapture that's what so even if Christ returned right this minute to retrieve the church and to get the dead in Christ it cannot be the beginning of the 7 year tribulation with antichrist at the top of the heap on that day because there is no current person who could fill those shoes and antichrists requirements in this day right here right now. There is no infrastructure to even be close for a one world economy. There is no system in place that could even begin to mark 6 billion+ people of the world with the mark of the beast in the next 3 1/2 years. Worse, there is no possibility of a one world religion being in place suddenly on this day.

If Christ came back right now, nothing is in place to mark the beginning of the 7 years so something is amiss with our preconception that the rapture begins the 7 years.

This proposal in itself is indicative that if the rapture be a matter of fact and happened right here right now as is possible as related in scripture, THERE WOULD BE IN PROPHECY AN UNDETERTIMED AND UNREVEALED DURATION OF TIME between the rapture and the day antichrist became one world ruler. Just like the time space between the old and new testaments but you really wouldn't recognize those hundreds of years by just turning the page would you?

To achieve being one world ruler and head of a one world religion and instigator of a one world economy could take how long to do that in light of the worldwide chaos and war resulting from the rapture? It would be hard enough achieving this without all the war and chaos. To achieve it during or after the chaos would require the antichrist to rise out of the ashes of the chaos after the smoke cleared.

But look at what we have done. We jammed all this into the day of the rapture when there isn't anything going on in the here and now to support this. We believe that Christ can come back for the church right now and we believe that in light of the fact that the criteria of the 7 years that are required by prophecy isn't intact today.

So there will be no beginning the 7 year tribulation today if Christ comes back today. There would only be worldwide chaos and war into the undetermined future.

Continued...

napsnsnacks
Jan 1st 2007, 10:43 PM
All these aspects of prophecy are contained within time. Not outside of time such as God exists in such a non corporeal realm where there is no linear existence. Prophecy is hard coded to take place in time not out of time.

Take Daniel for instance. Look at all that is entailed in the material world for the 69 weeks. Leaders, the masses of people, nations, all that. This happened in real time as it took time for these leaders and masses of people and nations to accomplish over time to meet the dictates of prophecy. It just didn't "happen." Why would Revelation, Daniel's 70th week, be any different? It wouldn't. Where in Daniel did any of these things just pop out of nowhere and appeared apart from the time needed to accomplish such things? Nowhere. Given the continuity of prophecy and scripture we also must conclude that antichrist has much work to do on the world scene to accomplish prophecy just like time was the rule in the 69 weeks otherwise we are proposing time shifts.

Either way we go we must account for this and if we don't we make the same mistakes as our predecessors as they did theirs.

This is the only way that I could accept the pre-trib position is if there is attached to that, as I demonstrated that with the pre-trib period, there must be an unrevealed amount of time between the day of the rapture and antichrist attaining world leadership.

OK, now the premise of rapture and the antichrist where these share a timeline with he "church."

As I already demonstrated that there is no current infrastructure to support a one world government/religion/economic system headed by antichrist if today marked the beginning of the 7 year tribulation in the event that Christ came back today.

So here we are just going through life and slowly see our nation and the world deteriorating around our ears as we go about our Christian business.
We see the world changing, our nation changing, the church institution changing, everything being slooooowly modified to become generic so to speak to fit into a larger package.

We see the laws and constitutions of the nations slooooowly being altered or outright voided to fall into line with one intended source of law emanating from a certain source.

We see things going on that we cannot explain, things going on that are reshaping our world on a very large scale and whatever it is resides in the shadows, unseen, in private, wielding massive power across the globe without being center stage, a "shadow" government of sorts already possessing global influence to bring things to bear on its own interests.

We see and hear of war everywhere. Mass riots. Leaders dying. Leaders being killed. Insurrections. Governments being overthrown. Governments being replaced. Governments being taken over. Governments being rebuilt.

Governments being dissolved. Economies failing. New economies rising. A dozen or more wars brewing. An insidious presence everywhere that attacks without warning and dies or again vanishes into thin air. Global unrest. Something is behind ALL of this but remains just out of sight and reach meanwhile the whole conflagration appears to be going on inependent of other things. All these things are clearly going in a certain DIRECTION as it all smacks of an agenda but are sourced in SOMETHING or SOMEONE that cannot be readily identified but non the less it exists.

The only explanation for this is that behind the scenes somewhere in this world, cloaked in secrecy, money and power sits the antichrist right here right now. Creating the ashes for him to "rise" from to play himself off as the one who saves the world when he himself did this to the world to suit his own ends.

It gets worse and worse and worse until it is WW3. One person as of yet unknown begins to stick out like a sore thumb in all this. He appears to have influence and power that would have required decades if not a hundred years to possess.

We readily discern who he is as the nations have functionally collapsed, the church is still walking the earth, antichrist.

Christ comes back in the rapture at this time as the church existed and went through this horrible time and became to know who he was and what is going on.

Still the day of the rapture marking the beginning of the 7 years (the day antichrists makes this peace) would cause even more chaos than already exists so even still there would be a time period between the rapture and the beginning of the 7 years even though we did live through much of his activities already and knew who he was and what was going on as the church and antichrist coexisted on earth.

So in either instance the rapture wouldn't mark the beginning of the 7 years but in either scenario there is an unknown span of time between the rapture and the beginning of the 7 years with one scenario of the church not knowing who he is before the rapture and the second scenario we knew full well knew who he was as the world was collapsing around our ears.

continued...

MattHenry
Jan 2nd 2007, 01:12 PM
Re literal vs figurative mark: http://www.ellisskolfield.com/mark-of-the-beast-june-2006.shtml

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 06:47 PM
napsnacks,
I am basically refuting your statement in saying that the AC, whom I call the beast, can not rule the entire world and cause all to recieve the mark. There are some things you did not take into account.

1. If a center is put in every city under the influence of the beast, the number that you quoted would be magnified by the number of places doing the conversions.

Ex. New York City has about 11 million people in it. If one person has taken the mark a second, then it would take only 127 days to implant the mark on everyone in there. That's lesds than one year.

Now factor this into your equation.

No one in their right minds, having all of the power and authority of a government is going to limit the conversion centers to one spot. Now take the figure that I used to figure out how many days it would take to convert a city the size of NYC, and divide that by 10 centers, and you'll notice something, the time it takes for conversion decreases from almost a half of a year to about a few days. 13 to be exact.

Now, imagine that every city would use 10 centers in order to convert 1 person a second, and you will see that it doe not take long at all to administer the mark of the beast, especially since these conversion centers would be working at the same time.

Now there is another thing that you are not factoring into the equation.

2. Not everyone under the system of the beast will recieve the mark, only those old enough to buy or sell products. I believe that although it is possible for a child to recieve the mark, I am willing to bet that the little children will not recieve the mark. I could be wrong, but in my other point, I am not.

Christians and Jews will vehemently refuse to take the mark. This drops the number of those who take the mark considerably.

So to say that the Beast will not be able to administer the mark based on calculations that do not factor multiples is to be in error. Not to insult or anything, but I would be aware of that if I were you. Do not underestimate the enemy. For many of us stumbled after assuming that the enemy can not get to us to fall. Just ask Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and others like myself who took the grace of God for granted and fell on our faces.

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 07:09 PM
We tend to take things for granted that we should not.

What we see going on in our minds concerning future events is OK but that is the same thing as getting up and visualizing today’s agenda and then here it comes late afternoon and are exhausted are half finished with what we intended to do this morning.

In our minds we had an image off all these places we are supposed to be and an image of the things that we will be doing, minus all the details in between images.

We had jammed a days worth of activities into a few seconds of thought, all the while we had the world by the tail.

This is what I on many occasions have seen going on with, and have had to stop and think about, this same process going on with prophecy.

One of the contributors to that was my study of all the different times in our history that it was the end of the world and Armageddon and antichrist and the beast and the false prophet all flying left and right but here we still are.

This left me with once conclusion, obviously they were wrong in assuming and preaching that it was the end of the world during the Civil War, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea and now Iraq and Afghanistan just like they are now preaching the end of the world tomorrow when little to nothing is in place to herald antichrists exposure much less the nations of the world in a position to gleefully disposing of their self rule to accommodate him or the nations having a systemic economic infrastructure to support the mark of the beast. Many times I readily see fear and paranoia fueling a lot of this.

I had to figure why they were wrong. It wasn't because they were liars. It wasn't because prophecy is a lie. It is because they were jamming a gallon of water in a one quart container and it got away from them in every instance because they did not allow enough container just like we do not stop to think to allow enough time just like they did not allow enough time.

We see all these things that are going to be as related in scripture but we don't allow a documented timeline. The images just fly by minus all the details.

Antichrist is going to do this, that, and that, and the other, and yet still another so we see am image of each one of these "things" but do not stop to think of what physical things that must be accomplished for that image to come to reality.

As the scriptures relates: We have an image of antichrist being world leader. We have an image of people milling around buying and selling with a mark on their foreheads/hand. We have an image of the temple being rebuilt. We have an image of antichrist standing in the temple proclaiming that he is God.

But we don't stop to think exactly what must come to pass in this world, physical things in our reality, that requires time to make these things possible.

To dismiss this is to leave it to happen the way Genie did things on I Dream of Genie or Samantha on Bewitched.

Genie and Samantha had no need to consider a physical timeline for anything because, poof, there it is, shopping is done, clean house, dinner on the table.

Prophecy has never come to pass this way nor will it. Prophecy may be way out there but it is still prophecy given to come to pass in a material world without the likes of "magic."

The book of Revelation was written approximately 7,000 years ago but we go about the business as if it will all happen tomorrow when there are not enough minutes in tomorrow to allow for it.

We have been taught these things by people who also inherited it from their predecessors, who did not step back and say, "Hey, wait a minute. It seems to be a monumental enough task just in becoming mayor, county commissioner or governor so let me for a minute put myself in antichrists shoes and desire to be one world leader. Wow."
Continued...

First off, revelation is not 7000 years old. Try 1900. Second, the reson why prophecies do not come to pass the way people think they are to happen is not because the prophecies are wrong. The interpretations of those prophecies are wrong.

You see, there are plenty of "prophets" in the world today, relying on everything under the sun in order to prove that what they think is prophetic is true, when in all reality it is not. In the case of the civil war, WWI, WWII, and ...operation desert storm... (sorry, but I have not heard anyone talk about Iraq being the end of the world), these people lacked the true understanding of the scriptures, like many do today.

For example, in Matthew 24, the prophecies that Christ mentioned are suppose to happen in a set order, like it is suppose to in Revelation. Some of the signs we will not be able to see, and others we will. But all of them must happen in a specific order.

Does anyone find it funny that Christ is not on this Earth yet? Even though there were planty of wars and other things that could cause many to think that He is coming, and yet He is not here yet? The answer is amazingly simple, the signs have not fallen in order, well, not yet anyway. For generations, people hafve tried to chronicle a series of events that would lead up to the return of the Lord, but things have been missing.

For example. The bluebonnet plague, which wiped out half of Europe, caused many to believe that the Lord is coming back, but He didn't. why? Bacause Israel was not a sovereign nation yet, for the Israelites were still in captivity. Moreover, there was no rumor of a war that could wipe out all humanity, only a plague. This does not fit the order that Christ established in Matthew 24 or in Revelation 6-20. There are many examples of this very same thing, and yet no one until recently noticed this.

Now, we are on the threshhold of experiencing something that no other generation has experienced before. The Cold War was the rumor of a war that could wipe out humanity. Since the end of the cold war, real wars have erupted in many places around the world, and continue to this day. (In case no one noticed, Ethiopia has declared war against the Islamic militants in Somalia Dec 24, 2006) The number of earthquakes and plagues and famines hasve increased in the last 30 years. And more and more, the nations that were Christian based are now rebelling, preferring the dogma of secularism rather than maintaining their Christian roots. Look at any "documentary" on the History Channel or Nation Geographic Channel to see that there is a push to eliminate Christ from everything, and the world is taking the bait. The love of most is growing ever so cold, as families are split over miniscule things, and major things as well. Nothing is sacred. Even churches are abandoning the sound Gospel in favor of their own sick desires. No one can deny that wickedness has not only increased as of late, but it is being normalized as well. If this is not the end times, it sure appears to mirror everything Christ said would happen before His coming.

Now, with that said, I venture to say this. If the temple is not rebuilt, if there is not a war that wipes out 1/3 of mankind, if two prophets do not appear and inflict plagues on the world from Jerusalem, then the end is not yet. Paul states that Christ will not return unless the apostasy happens first and the man of sin is revealed, and according to both Christ ans Paul, the man of sin will proclaim himself to be God, standing in the Holy Place becoming the abomination that causes desolation. The Holy place can only be found in the Temple at Jerusalem. If the temple is not rebuilt, then the man of sin can not be revealed. This is the proper approach to looking at prophecy.

Many look to prophecy to confirm their faith, where the purpose of prophecy is to warn of a certain series of events, and how we are to stand against them. Without prophecies like the first advent and the cutting off of the Messiah, we would not know that Christ Jeus is indeed the Messiah. When the prophecy comes true, then that should confirm the faith that we have, not the opposite.

MattHenry
Jan 2nd 2007, 07:23 PM
napsnacks, I am basically refuting your statement in saying that the AC, whom I call the beast, Why would you consider a beast as being other than a kingdom or empire?
Especially the leopard, bear, lion or 4th terrible beasts?
Daniel defined the term beast for us:
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Dan/Dan007.html#23

DiscoJack
Jan 2nd 2007, 07:24 PM
TH, I agree with you that Revelation is not 7000 years old, but I have not heard of the The bluebonnet plague. Would you enlighten us?

MattHenry
Jan 2nd 2007, 07:34 PM
First off, revelation is not 7000 years old. Try 1900. Second, the reson why prophecies do not come to pass the way people think they are to happen is not because the prophecies are wrong. The interpretations of those prophecies are wrong.
................

Many look to prophecy to confirm their faith, where the purpose of prophecy is to warn of a certain series of events, and how we are to stand against them. Without prophecies like the first advent and the cutting off of the Messiah, we would not know that Christ Jeus is indeed the Messiah. When the prophecy comes true, then that should confirm the faith that we have, not the opposite.
Well done. I am with you and Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry on this.

The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Isaac Newton

Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe. - Matthew Henry

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 07:48 PM
TH, I agree with you that Revelation is not 7000 years old, but I have not heard of the The bluebonnet plague. Would you enlighten us?

I may have misspelled it, but is was called "the Black Death". This happened right before the Reformation started, and many attributed this plagues as the catalyst for the Reformation, since priests were not spared from this plague.

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 07:54 PM
Well done. I am with you and Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry on this.

The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Isaac Newton

Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe. - Matthew Henry

WOW! I knew that Isaac Newton was intellegent, but the fact that he recognized that makes him a Genius! lol.

Seriously, if one was to ask one question, why aren't the children of God one as Christ prayed for us to be; when one searches for the answer, it is the same thing that casts contempt on prophecy. INterpretations of men. Jesus, when He first started preaching the Gospel, He spend most of the time refuting interpretations of men back then, and sadly, nothing has really changed. Jesus's message has never changed; it is the vain imaginings of men that cause so much confusion.

This is yet another reason why those who want to cling to darkness proclaim that Christianity is a bunch of lies, because they fell for the winds of doctrine that are flying around nowadays.

ScottJohnson
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:00 PM
Are you talking about the Bubonic plague?

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:02 PM
All these aspects of prophecy are contained within time. Not outside of time such as God exists in such a non corporeal realm where there is no linear existence. Prophecy is hard coded to take place in time not out of time.

Take Daniel for instance. Look at all that is entailed in the material world for the 69 weeks. Leaders, the masses of people, nations, all that. This happened in real time as it took time for these leaders and masses of people and nations to accomplish over time to meet the dictates of prophecy. It just didn't "happen." Why would Revelation, Daniel's 70th week, be any different? It wouldn't. Where in Daniel did any of these things just pop out of nowhere and appeared apart from the time needed to accomplish such things? Nowhere. Given the continuity of prophecy and scripture we also must conclude that antichrist has much work to do on the world scene to accomplish prophecy just like time was the rule in the 69 weeks otherwise we are proposing time shifts.

Either way we go we must account for this and if we don't we make the same mistakes as our predecessors as they did theirs.

This is the only way that I could accept the pre-trib position is if there is attached to that, as I demonstrated that with the pre-trib period, there must be an unrevealed amount of time between the day of the rapture and antichrist attaining world leadership.

OK, now the premise of rapture and the antichrist where these share a timeline with he "church."

As I already demonstrated that there is no current infrastructure to support a one world government/religion/economic system headed by antichrist if today marked the beginning of the 7 year tribulation in the event that Christ came back today.

So here we are just going through life and slowly see our nation and the world deteriorating around our ears as we go about our Christian business.
We see the world changing, our nation changing, the church institution changing, everything being slooooowly modified to become generic so to speak to fit into a larger package.

We see the laws and constitutions of the nations slooooowly being altered or outright voided to fall into line with one intended source of law emanating from a certain source.

We see things going on that we cannot explain, things going on that are reshaping our world on a very large scale and whatever it is resides in the shadows, unseen, in private, wielding massive power across the globe without being center stage, a "shadow" government of sorts already possessing global influence to bring things to bear on its own interests.

We see and hear of war everywhere. Mass riots. Leaders dying. Leaders being killed. Insurrections. Governments being overthrown. Governments being replaced. Governments being taken over. Governments being rebuilt.

Governments being dissolved. Economies failing. New economies rising. A dozen or more wars brewing. An insidious presence everywhere that attacks without warning and dies or again vanishes into thin air. Global unrest. Something is behind ALL of this but remains just out of sight and reach meanwhile the whole conflagration appears to be going on inependent of other things. All these things are clearly going in a certain DIRECTION as it all smacks of an agenda but are sourced in SOMETHING or SOMEONE that cannot be readily identified but non the less it exists.

The only explanation for this is that behind the scenes somewhere in this world, cloaked in secrecy, money and power sits the antichrist right here right now. Creating the ashes for him to "rise" from to play himself off as the one who saves the world when he himself did this to the world to suit his own ends.

It gets worse and worse and worse until it is WW3. One person as of yet unknown begins to stick out like a sore thumb in all this. He appears to have influence and power that would have required decades if not a hundred years to possess.

We readily discern who he is as the nations have functionally collapsed, the church is still walking the earth, antichrist.

Christ comes back in the rapture at this time as the church existed and went through this horrible time and became to know who he was and what is going on.

Still the day of the rapture marking the beginning of the 7 years (the day antichrists makes this peace) would cause even more chaos than already exists so even still there would be a time period between the rapture and the beginning of the 7 years even though we did live through much of his activities already and knew who he was and what was going on as the church and antichrist coexisted on earth.

So in either instance the rapture wouldn't mark the beginning of the 7 years but in either scenario there is an unknown span of time between the rapture and the beginning of the 7 years with one scenario of the church not knowing who he is before the rapture and the second scenario we knew full well knew who he was as the world was collapsing around our ears.

continued...

Napsnack,
There are a bunch of questions that pre-trib rapture does not even hope to answer. For example, where did this 7 year period come from? Form what I have read, the Great tribulation lasts only 3 and 1/2 years.

There are lots and lots of doctrines out there expounded by many many people, and the truth is out there. However, not many are actually looking forthe truth, but rather, they look to what makes sense to them, all the while ignoring what are glaring contradictions in their doctrine. Their doctrine comes into comflit with what the Bible says concerning many topics, including the end times.

This is why God has put in place a failsafe. The Holy Spirit is that failsafe. In today's world, where the truth is hidden under a bowl, God's Spirit seeks out those who want to learn the truth. Everyone who bows their knees to Christ are open to receive not only the Holy Spirit, but also His teaching as well. This is not taught much, but it is the basic truth that separates all lies from it.

What I ask those like yourself who seem to be confused on things such as prophecies, ask of the Lord, and wait for His answer. He will teach you all truth, like He said He will. (John 14:15-21). I would say more, but I think it's better foranyone seeking the truth to go to God first, and let Him show you the way.

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:03 PM
Are you talking about the Bubonic plague?

So, that's how it's spelled:rofl: . Thanks

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:04 PM
Why would you consider a beast as being other than a kingdom or empire?
Especially the leopard, bear, lion or 4th terrible beasts?
Daniel defined the term beast for us:
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Dan/Dan007.html#23


My answer for calling the man of sin a beast? Read Revelation 13, and notice that the beast there are not nations, they are men.

MattHenry
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:04 PM
bubonic plague We knew what you meant. http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=bubonic+plague&fr=yfp-t-439&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

MattHenry
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:12 PM
My answer for calling the man of sin a beast? Read Revelation 13, and notice that the beast there are not nations, they are men.
I offered you the Biblical definition of beast and you respond that I should "notice" something that is contrary to scripture.

Virtually all sound Bible scholars recognize that the lion, bear and leopard of Daniel were the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Pursia and Greece (4th terrible being the Roman empire).

Then in Revelation 13 we find that instead of successive kingdoms they have become a composite leopard-bear-lion beast=kingdom. The same geographical region of the successive ancient kingdoms mentioned above are today occupied by Iraq, Iran, and Syria - the LBL beast.
Rev 13:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=13&verse=2&version=kjv#2)And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

They are presented as a composite because although they are separate kingdoms they are united by the false prophet Mohammed as well as the spirit of antichrist - to the man.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=61971 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=61971)


This helps us to understand that Islam is central to eschatology.

In regard to your "man of sin", which you seem to want to use to support your view, where does he sit? http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Th/2Th002.html#3

third hero
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:33 PM
I offered you the Biblical definition of beast and you respond that I should "notice" something that is contrary to scripture.

Virtually all sound Bible scholars recognize that the lion, bear and leopard of Daniel were the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Pursia and Greece (4th terrible being the Roman empire).

Then in Revelation 13 we find that instead of successive kingdoms they have become a composite leopard-bear-lion beast=kingdom. The same geographical region of the successive ancient kingdoms mentioned above are today occupied by Iraq, Iran, and Syria - the LBL beast.
They are presented as a composite because although they are separate kingdoms they are united by the false prophet Mohammed as well as the spirit of antichrist - to the man.

This is how we can understand that Islam is central to eschatology.

In regard to your "man of sin", which you seem to want to use to support your view, where does he sit?

Now hold on a sec. I am not denying what you have stated. You beased your evidence on Daniel. That's fine and good. Now hear me out.

Revelation 17:7-11

And the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, andof the beast that carrieth her, which hath seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and now is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go to perdition: and they that dwell on earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was once, now is not, and yet is.
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. Seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And they are also seven kings: five have fallen, one is, and the other is not come yet; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, is the eighth, and is one of the seven, which goeth into perdition.

Note the differences between Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and 17. Daniel clearly talks about four superpowers, or nations. Revelations talks speifically about a person. Did anyone ever hear of a nation that rose out of a bottomless pit? No. Nations do not go into the sheol, or the abyss. People do, wicked people.

Notice something else. The beast has a dual meaning. the seven heads symbolize seven mountains in which the woman sits, but they also represent kings. If the Beast in Revelation meant to say kingdoms, the angel would have said, "kingdoms" instead of "kings". Verse 12 goes on to say that the ten horns represent tens kings who do not have a kingdom, who will gain one for one hour, for the purpose of handing it's authority over to the beast.

Also, in Revelation 13, the beast speaks. Does anyone know of any nation that speaks for itself? Since when does the earth talk? No, it is not a nation that speaks, but a person who rules that nation. The beast from the abyss, which coincidently is the same as the one that is prophesied about in revelation 17, speaks blasphemies against Our Lord, and declares war against the saints. This clearly refers to a person, and not to a nation.

Moreover, the dream that Nebachadnezzar had, and the vision that John witnessed are not the same. What has one meaning in one book does not hold the same meaning in another book. You should know that! Daniel was written about 600 years before Revelation, and so terms definitions change with time. I do not try to connect Daniel to Revelation, other than the seventy weeks passage. That is all in the book that I have found that is related, other than the fourth beast in Neba's dream.

MattHenry
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:46 PM
Daniel was written about 600 years before Revelation, and so terms definitions change with time.Not unless the Lord says they do.
I do not try to connect Daniel to Revelation,.I found it necessary to procure the definition of beast.
other than the seventy weeks passage.I understand your doctrine. Believed it myself for a good long time. Did you know it was not to be found in the Church prior to John Darby penning the doctrine in the late 1800s?
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=54531 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=54531)

That is all in the book that I have found that is related, other than the fourth beast in Neba's dream.That might be because you haven't understood the mathematics that unite the two books. Look at the following thread and try to conclude that this is a mathematical accident, that perfectly unites Daniel and Revelation, and places Islam in the center of end time prophecy:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=60044

napsnsnacks
Jan 3rd 2007, 06:40 AM
Induction centers and cities full of them are irrelevant.

I did not say that this was a literal impossibility. Of course it can be done. You demonstrating that it can be done doesn't have any value because I know it can be done before I first ever proposed the theory.

My point was to propose that it cannot be done under current doctrinal conditions.

Note something: I stated in no uncertain terms not that it couldn't be done but that there is NOT ENOUGH TIME with the current interpretation that the rapture begins the 7 year tribulation for several reasons.

If the rapture begins the 7 years:

1> If Christ came back right now marking the start of the 7 years, there is NO infrastructure in place here and now either economic or political or religious to support a platform for antichrist to be world ruler from TODAY because the rapture supposedly under current doctrinal circumstances dictates that the rapture begins the 7 years and scriptures relate that antichrist is in power on that day.

2> If Christ came back right now marking the start of the 7 years it would be world wide chaos and not all the sudden on the TV screen of those left behind "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." and the rule of antichrist would require planning organization if not the outright collusion of the nations to abdicate their sovereignty and the dissolving of the nations as we know them for the masses of people to accept him because at the start of this chaos the higher nations of the world and the lower nations are going to seize the opportunity to grab what they can and would be laughing at, "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." There is no telling how long it will take that "steam" to be depleted so that antichrist comes on the scene and organizes things as he will rise up out of world wide ruin.

If the rapture marks the beginning of the 7 years and antichrist is in power on that day then we will be as the church for who knows what undetermined amount of time living through hell on earth, WW3, because at the beginning of the 7 years antichrist is already in power at the rapture, we full well knew who he was and what was going on, there is war (he current war does not fit the criteria either) and makes a peace deal that he breaks 3 1/2 years later.

Between the rapture and the rapture marking the beginning of the 7 years and at the beginning of the 7 years antichrist makes a peace deal as world ruler, and the chaos ensuing from the rapture and the nations of the world being independent at the rapture and not under antichrist as one world government at that exact same time is all proposing a physically impossible doctrine to happen in a day.

I also outlined how it could be possible if you just review what I posted earlier. It's all there and I do so hate repeating myself. Problem is that Christians are taught from childhood that they and their little worlds are preserved and antichrist can't touch them or make trouble for them or take their homes or revoke their legal rights or throw them in prison or roam the countryside hunting them to cut their heads off or take their money or take their children and as such they oppose any explanation of prophecy that may infringe on their comforts of life such as we are all happy campers then we disappear and then here is for the "evil doers," "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." and all the "suffering" is for the "bad people".

This is a delusion. I know, I was taught it and eventually I sat down and examined it and realized that there is not enough time for believers to be sitting pretty with the money and comforts and the freedom and antichrist to be world ruler at the same time or for that matter even in the same day which is why it is commonly rejected that believers could be stripped of everything they know and possess and hold dear including homes and their money their families and children BEFORE THE 7 YEARS EVER STARTS.

Think about it. Such people are in for a big wake up call with this world on a global scale going down the tubes before our very eyes and with this mindset they will also curse God for abandoning them as they would undoubtedly perceive it that way when our corner of the world comes crashing down because as is this thought process does not lead anywhere else.

This is the way they want it by being unperturbed and they disappear and then for those left behind, "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it."

Believing such things does not mean they are not Christians or do not possess salvation. It just means that they are under the impression of things that simply cannot be part of reality but a self comforting concept.

napsnsnacks
Jan 3rd 2007, 07:49 AM
The reference to the age of Revelation was obviously a typo. Good grief.

Naphal
Jan 3rd 2007, 08:02 AM
the seven heads symbolize seven mountains in which the woman sits, but they also represent kings.

No, Rev 17 says there are ten kings not seven and the horns represent kings not the mountains. It is understood in prophetic writings that mountains are nations or great powers.


Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.





If the Beast in Revelation meant to say kingdoms, the angel would have said, "kingdoms" instead of "kings". Verse 12 goes on to say that the ten horns represent tens kings who do not have a kingdom, who will gain one for one hour, for the purpose of handing it's authority over to the beast.



That's also incorrect. You are leaving out the "as yet"

"which have received no kingdom as yet"

The kings have kingdoms prior to the arrival of the beast of Rev 13, its just that at the writing by John they had no kingdoms yet...they weren't even born yet.


Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Here we see that the ten kings give their kingdoms (kingdom singular per each king) to the beast. In return they are allowed to remain kings united under the beast and its ruler the second beast called the false prophet in Rev and called the Antichrist by John in his other writings.


Also, in Revelation 13, the beast speaks. Does anyone know of any nation that speaks for itself?


Go to www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) and look up the word "personification"

third hero
Jan 3rd 2007, 12:03 PM
Induction centers and cities full of them are irrelevant.

I did not say that this was a literal impossibility. Of course it can be done. You demonstrating that it can be done doesn't have any value because I know it can be done before I first ever proposed the theory.

My point was to propose that it cannot be done under current doctrinal conditions.

Note something: I stated in no uncertain terms not that it couldn't be done but that there is NOT ENOUGH TIME with the current interpretation that the rapture begins the 7 year tribulation for several reasons.

If the rapture begins the 7 years:

1> If Christ came back right now marking the start of the 7 years, there is NO infrastructure in place here and now either economic or political or religious to support a platform for antichrist to be world ruler from TODAY because the rapture supposedly under current doctrinal circumstances dictates that the rapture begins the 7 years and scriptures relate that antichrist is in power on that day.

2> If Christ came back right now marking the start of the 7 years it would be world wide chaos and not all the sudden on the TV screen of those left behind "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." and the rule of antichrist would require planning organization if not the outright collusion of the nations to abdicate their sovereignty and the dissolving of the nations as we know them for the masses of people to accept him because at the start of this chaos the higher nations of the world and the lower nations are going to seize the opportunity to grab what they can and would be laughing at, "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." There is no telling how long it will take that "steam" to be depleted so that antichrist comes on the scene and organizes things as he will rise up out of world wide ruin.

If the rapture marks the beginning of the 7 years and antichrist is in power on that day then we will be as the church for who knows what undetermined amount of time living through hell on earth, WW3, because at the beginning of the 7 years antichrist is already in power at the rapture, we full well knew who he was and what was going on, there is war (he current war does not fit the criteria either) and makes a peace deal that he breaks 3 1/2 years later.

Between the rapture and the rapture marking the beginning of the 7 years and at the beginning of the 7 years antichrist makes a peace deal as world ruler, and the chaos ensuing from the rapture and the nations of the world being independent at the rapture and not under antichrist as one world government at that exact same time is all proposing a physically impossible doctrine to happen in a day.

I also outlined how it could be possible if you just review what I posted earlier. It's all there and I do so hate repeating myself. Problem is that Christians are taught from childhood that they and their little worlds are preserved and antichrist can't touch them or make trouble for them or take their homes or revoke their legal rights or throw them in prison or roam the countryside hunting them to cut their heads off or take their money or take their children and as such they oppose any explanation of prophecy that may infringe on their comforts of life such as we are all happy campers then we disappear and then here is for the "evil doers," "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." and all the "suffering" is for the "bad people".

This is a delusion. I know, I was taught it and eventually I sat down and examined it and realized that there is not enough time for believers to be sitting pretty with the money and comforts and the freedom and antichrist to be world ruler at the same time or for that matter even in the same day which is why it is commonly rejected that believers could be stripped of everything they know and possess and hold dear including homes and their money their families and children BEFORE THE 7 YEARS EVER STARTS.

Think about it. Such people are in for a big wake up call with this world on a global scale going down the tubes before our very eyes and with this mindset they will also curse God for abandoning them as they would undoubtedly perceive it that way when our corner of the world comes crashing down because as is this thought process does not lead anywhere else.

This is the way they want it by being unperturbed and they disappear and then for those left behind, "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it."

Believing such things does not mean they are not Christians or do not possess salvation. It just means that they are under the impression of things that simply cannot be part of reality but a self comforting concept.

I undrestand now. I'm sorry, but I have what is called SDADD, (Self-Diagnosed Attention Depicit Disorder). Translation, that was an incredible amount of reading and I didn't have the time to read and think about your thesis. Even you have to admit, that was a lot of info to have to swallow in one dose.

What you are saying , I totally agree with, and this self comfort disturbs me. I do not think that the pretribbers are not Christians. I believe that they, unlike the Amils, are the MOST vulnerable to the deceptions of the enemy. Here's my point.

1. We are taught that the "big bad guy" will be unleashing hell on earth for 7 years. During this time, we'll be eating pie in the sky.

...but....

2. The big bad guy shows up, and the rapture does not take place.

Those who stake their lives on the idea that Christ would take them to heaven before the advent of the evil one will begin to think that they are lost. I mean, since the beast, (whom you guys insist I not call him that), is on earth, then Christ must have returned, and the pretribbers will believe that they missed it.

So then what?

The answer to that question, the possible choices these people make, trouble me. Many of them could lose heart, thinking that they are lost anyway, and so taking the mark of the Beast, fulfilling their greatest fear.

Others could fight against the beast, and yet will not survive because they may not stick together like the rest of us do. So they become part of those who lose their heads for the testimony of the Lord.

And others still could take the mark, thinking that Christ is not real, and Christianity is a fraud.

Two of these three possibilities are the reason why I think that the pre-trib doctrine is so dangerous. IT teaches us to believe that we will not have to sufffer for the sake of the Lord; that we will not have to pay the price like the original disciples did. Jesus himself said that in this world we will have trouble, but to take heart. If we are not above our Master, than whatever He had to endure, we will as well in carrying out His commands; namely persecution and death. Christianity is not for te squeemish, I found out.

jesuslover1968
Jan 3rd 2007, 05:15 PM
Induction centers and cities full of them are irrelevant.

I did not say that this was a literal impossibility. Of course it can be done. You demonstrating that it can be done doesn't have any value because I know it can be done before I first ever proposed the theory.

My point was to propose that it cannot be done under current doctrinal conditions.

Note something: I stated in no uncertain terms not that it couldn't be done but that there is NOT ENOUGH TIME with the current interpretation that the rapture begins the 7 year tribulation for several reasons.

If the rapture begins the 7 years:

1> If Christ came back right now marking the start of the 7 years, there is NO infrastructure in place here and now either economic or political or religious to support a platform for antichrist to be world ruler from TODAY because the rapture supposedly under current doctrinal circumstances dictates that the rapture begins the 7 years and scriptures relate that antichrist is in power on that day.

2> If Christ came back right now marking the start of the 7 years it would be world wide chaos and not all the sudden on the TV screen of those left behind "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." and the rule of antichrist would require planning organization if not the outright collusion of the nations to abdicate their sovereignty and the dissolving of the nations as we know them for the masses of people to accept him because at the start of this chaos the higher nations of the world and the lower nations are going to seize the opportunity to grab what they can and would be laughing at, "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." There is no telling how long it will take that "steam" to be depleted so that antichrist comes on the scene and organizes things as he will rise up out of world wide ruin.

If the rapture marks the beginning of the 7 years and antichrist is in power on that day then we will be as the church for who knows what undetermined amount of time living through hell on earth, WW3, because at the beginning of the 7 years antichrist is already in power at the rapture, we full well knew who he was and what was going on, there is war (he current war does not fit the criteria either) and makes a peace deal that he breaks 3 1/2 years later.

Between the rapture and the rapture marking the beginning of the 7 years and at the beginning of the 7 years antichrist makes a peace deal as world ruler, and the chaos ensuing from the rapture and the nations of the world being independent at the rapture and not under antichrist as one world government at that exact same time is all proposing a physically impossible doctrine to happen in a day.

I also outlined how it could be possible if you just review what I posted earlier. It's all there and I do so hate repeating myself. Problem is that Christians are taught from childhood that they and their little worlds are preserved and antichrist can't touch them or make trouble for them or take their homes or revoke their legal rights or throw them in prison or roam the countryside hunting them to cut their heads off or take their money or take their children and as such they oppose any explanation of prophecy that may infringe on their comforts of life such as we are all happy campers then we disappear and then here is for the "evil doers," "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it." and all the "suffering" is for the "bad people".

This is a delusion. I know, I was taught it and eventually I sat down and examined it and realized that there is not enough time for believers to be sitting pretty with the money and comforts and the freedom and antichrist to be world ruler at the same time or for that matter even in the same day which is why it is commonly rejected that believers could be stripped of everything they know and possess and hold dear including homes and their money their families and children BEFORE THE 7 YEARS EVER STARTS.

Think about it. Such people are in for a big wake up call with this world on a global scale going down the tubes before our very eyes and with this mindset they will also curse God for abandoning them as they would undoubtedly perceive it that way when our corner of the world comes crashing down because as is this thought process does not lead anywhere else.

This is the way they want it by being unperturbed and they disappear and then for those left behind, "Hey everybody I'm your new world ruler and this is the way we are going to do it."

Believing such things does not mean they are not Christians or do not possess salvation. It just means that they are under the impression of things that simply cannot be part of reality but a self comforting concept.

I disagree. The world systems are already being put in place. It would not be that difficult at all. So basically what you are saying is that there is no rapture because you don't think it could all be in place in time to carry out the prophecies? I would disagree on the basis that the Bible says it will happen and no matter whether our logic denies it, what God says, goes. God Bless.

jesuslover1968
Jan 3rd 2007, 05:18 PM
What you are saying , I totally agree with, and this self comfort disturbs me. I do not think that the pretribbers are not Christians. I believe that they, unlike the Amils, are the MOST vulnerable to the deceptions of the enemy. Here's my point.


I disagree. The pre-mill know there will be a big ole bad guy cause the Bible tells us. Even if left to go through the trib, we would still recognize him as the anti-Christ. Amill., on the other hand would not because they either do not believe there will be one, or they think he has already been and gone. So I do not see your point in saying that pre-mill is the most vulnerable. What view do you hold exactly because as you change from one thing to another it is quite hard to pin down. God Bless.

napsnsnacks
Jan 3rd 2007, 10:04 PM
I disagree. The world systems are already being put in place. It would not be that difficult at all. So basically what you are saying is that there is no rapture because you don't think it could all be in place in time to carry out the prophecies? I would disagree on the basis that the Bible says it will happen and no matter whether our logic denies it, what God says, goes. God Bless.

"The world systems are already being put in place."

That is the glitch in this whole thing if you just stop to recognize it.
"already being put in place." is not IN PLACE. That is the crux of the matter.

"already being put in place." does not satisfy the antichrist being in power to make peace in a world war marking the beginning of the 7 years. In order for this to occur, these things MUST BE in place or you admit that there is an unspecified period of time between the rapture and the beginning of the 7 years.

According to the current status quo the rapture and antichrist being in power as world leader at the time of the rapture must be simultaneous in order for the doctrine of the day of the rapture marking the first day of the 7 years to be fluent.

Any other proposition dictates that there will be a period of time between the rapture and the antichrist assuming world power or if antichrist is in power at the time of the rature the church lived in hell on earth BEFORE THE 7 YEARS EVER STARTED because they were living it real time as the antichrist arose from the ashes of the dissolved nations to become world leader at the day of the rapture.

Those are the only two options because the criteria is not met in this world yet, on this very day that Christ could come back and at the same time antichrist is world leader under the current scenario. Had you studied out what I wrote.

I never said there was no rapture.

I stated that there is an unrevealed time space either before or after the rapture to come to power to be simultaneous with the anticrist being world leader on the day of the rapture.

This does not deny the rapture, it ratifies it, just allow for the antichrist to be world ruler on the day of the raptue if the rapture in its current understanding is to mark the beginning of the 7 years.

This unrevealed time space can be before or after the rapture.

These are the images that you are missing.

jesuslover1968
Jan 3rd 2007, 10:43 PM
"The world systems are already being put in place."

That is the glitch in this whole thing if you just stop to recognize it.
"already being put in place." is not IN PLACE. That is the crux of the matter.

"already being put in place." does not satisfy the antichrist being in power to make peace in a world war marking the beginning of the 7 years. In order for this to occur, these things MUST BE in place or you admit that there is an unspecified period of time between the rapture and the beginning of the 7 years.

According to the current status quo the rapture and antichrist being in power as world leader at the time of the rapture must be simultaneous in order for the doctrine of the day of the rapture marking the first day of the 7 years to be fluent.

Any other proposition dictates that there will be a period of time between the rapture and the antichrist assuming world power or if antichrist is in power at the time of the rature the church lived in hell on earth BEFORE THE 7 YEARS EVER STARTED because they were living it real time as the antichrist arose from the ashes of the dissolved nations to become world leader at the day of the rapture.

Those are the only two options because the criteria is not met in this world yet, on this very day that Christ could come back and at the same time antichrist is world leader under the current scenario. Had you studied out what I wrote.

I never said there was no rapture.

I stated that there is an unrevealed time space either before or after the rapture to come to power to be simultaneous with the anticrist being world leader on the day of the rapture.

This does not deny the rapture, it ratifies it, just allow for the antichrist to be world ruler on the day of the raptue if the rapture in its current understanding is to mark the beginning of the 7 years.

This unrevealed time space can be before or after the rapture.

These are the images that you are missing.

ok, I'll start from your first assumption. I have never said that there won't be a period of time in between the rapture of the Church and the triibulation. Notwithstanding I wouldn't even wager a guess at how long, but I assume there WILL be one. I wouldn't think that he would be in power at the time of the rapture, but am not saying that he will not be on the public scene, we just won't know who he is for sure. God Bless.

napsnsnacks
Jan 4th 2007, 12:02 AM
ok, I'll start from your first assumption. I have never said that there won't be a period of time in between the rapture of the Church and the triibulation. Notwithstanding I wouldn't even wager a guess at how long, but I assume there WILL be one. I wouldn't think that he would be in power at the time of the rapture, but am not saying that he will not be on the public scene, we just won't know who he is for sure. God Bless.

I would not venture to say how long of a time period that the believers go through hell on earth before the beginning of the 7 years which is marked by the rapture or how long of a time period it would take for antichrist to rise from world ruin in the event that believers did not know who he was at the time of rapture for him to access a lobal platform for his rule to even be world ruler to make peace and start the 7 years.

I am not trying to identify the antichrist (against forum rules) though my reserach of old money, old power, old influence, an "entity" that has always been there compared to other wealthy and powerful families and rulers and thier families that come and go I got a good line on where antichrists lair is as oriented to a human line of a family.

So he is either materially one of these people that is out of sight and never ages or he just possesses them one at a time in sucession and uses them.

napsnsnacks
Jan 4th 2007, 04:19 AM
If antichrist is going to have a power base, the first and most powerful of the economic, political and religious bases to be built by him first would be which?

Out of the three, large or small, would weild the most power? The economic, political or religious?

There have been endless powerful religious figures but that wasn't enough for him to subdue the world was it? No. There is a litany of them and these types still exist too.

There has been a litany of powerful political rulers since time began, many in total domination but still that was not enough to maintain the status quo was it? No.

Regardless of the nature of the society, anywhere, anytime in history regardless of whether it was secular or religious or a free for all mish mash, what was the underlying theme common to every single one of them and without that single commonality they all came to ruin and faded away.
Yes, an economy. Money. Currency. Cash, gold, jewels, trading skins for food, ground corn for baskets, it's all the same. He who has the most of these things or controls most of these things holds all the cards. They make the rules, even from behind the scenes.

Power. He who would agree with such is made. He who disagrees is broken. That is power, financial power. It is the only power that has ever really existed in human relations.

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." - Mayer Amschel Rothschild, 1790

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." - President James A. Garfield (1831-1881)

"Money plays the largest part in determining the course of history" - Karl Marx (Communist Manifesto)

So here goes the antichrist about his business all the way back to God only knows when. Being smart enough he knows that money is where it's at so still he had his agenda and would repeatedly play the masses through history (antichrists footprints tread all over human history but his objective was never achieved) over and over through history for politics but he couldn't with that become boss of all.

All these politics came to naught. So over and over he did the religious bit also and that all came to ruin. Still he knew money was where it was at. Trouble was that money, gold and all that was in too few hands so whenever the religion and politics failed here come their neighbors to gobble it up in a war then antichrist had to go over there and start all ovr again then here was antichrist standing off to the side scheming this out. Frustrated, he knew how to do this but the tools just were not there (he is stuck with material time and material goods just like everybody else because it is our world he is dealing with) so he killed time corupting the world with wars while millions poured into hell.

He needed a situation where finances were systemic among the nations with him at the head of the system. He could not do this as an accountant of a nation or possessing the accountant of a nation.

The world grew, he when about it over and over but was thwarted because he was stuck with working with nations individually and that only meant that these nations did not get along or whatever and plan after plan failed.

Only after the worlds population became so great that they were stuck where they are and were not "mobile" and were hardcore established then he had something solid to work with regardless of who came or went in politics or religion because the money would always be there, mounds of gold and jewels always there in one or the others hands. Things were solid regardless of which religion or politic held sway.

Once there was enough people and enough nations, enough to play one against another he then decided that he was going to give up his toy career as a national accountant for the enjoyment of the slaughter and go private.

He saw his target and acquired it which was easy since the only emotion that he found there was greed.

So if you are going to back track down the antichrist, looking to political leaders to accuse is a long proven fallacy because none of them ever foot the bill then or now; the same goes for accusing religious leaders because they don't cut the mustard either.

Besides, antichrist being wise, would never expose himself as political and or religious leader until it was TOO LATE and to his advantage.

Money first, that's where the power rests. Once the globe sits financially in his hand where he can make or break nations at will then we can talk turkey. Once that is in his hand, as it is now, then he can dictate law and later when the nations become under a uniform form of law then he dictate religion.

He is just getting warmed up because is already in financial control and already dictating law and those "officials" of the nations who play along are dupes.

napsnsnacks
Jan 4th 2007, 10:18 AM
[quote=MidnightWatcher;973347]Hello everyone, this is my first post on this message board! So here is the question, "Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?" Growing up in a pre-trib Church I have always believe that yes, he most definitely would. [quote]

So has the topic been any good for you or are you just doing what every body else is doing and sitting back and checking it all out? If so that's OK.

I am sure that you did not expect your post to receive such an in depth and diverse conversation that it has gotten.

In the event that you find all this "way out there" I must apologize since I was the one who took it "way out there" and then the conversation just went ftom there to go even more way out there.

Best thing to do is pray. Upon you bed, in secret in your closet, whatever, youre on the right track either way.

third hero
Jan 4th 2007, 10:32 AM
If antichrist is going to have a power base, the first and most powerful of the economic, political and religious bases to be built by him first would be which?

Out of the three, large or small, would weild the most power? The economic, political or religious?

There have been endless powerful religious figures but that wasn't enough for him to subdue the world was it? No. There is a litany of them and these types still exist too.

There has been a litany of powerful political rulers since time began, many in total domination but still that was not enough to maintain the status quo was it? No.

Regardless of the nature of the society, anywhere, anytime in history regardless of whether it was secular or religious or a free for all mish mash, what was the underlying theme common to every single one of them and without that single commonality they all came to ruin and faded away.
Yes, an economy. Money. Currency. Cash, gold, jewels, trading skins for food, ground corn for baskets, it's all the same. He who has the most of these things or controls most of these things holds all the cards. They make the rules, even from behind the scenes.

Power. He who would agree with such is made. He who disagrees is broken. That is power, financial power. It is the only power that has ever really existed in human relations.

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." - Mayer Amschel Rothschild, 1790

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." - President James A. Garfield (1831-1881)

"Money plays the largest part in determining the course of history" - Karl Marx (Communist Manifesto)

So here goes the antichrist about his business all the way back to God only knows when. Being smart enough he knows that money is where it's at so still he had his agenda and would repeatedly play the masses through history (antichrists footprints tread all over human history but his objective was never achieved) over and over through history for politics but he couldn't with that become boss of all.

All these politics came to naught. So over and over he did the religious bit also and that all came to ruin. Still he knew money was where it was at. Trouble was that money, gold and all that was in too few hands so whenever the religion and politics failed here come their neighbors to gobble it up in a war then antichrist had to go over there and start all ovr again then here was antichrist standing off to the side scheming this out. Frustrated, he knew how to do this but the tools just were not there (he is stuck with material time and material goods just like everybody else because it is our world he is dealing with) so he killed time corupting the world with wars while millions poured into hell.

He needed a situation where finances were systemic among the nations with him at the head of the system. He could not do this as an accountant of a nation or possessing the accountant of a nation.

The world grew, he when about it over and over but was thwarted because he was stuck with working with nations individually and that only meant that these nations did not get along or whatever and plan after plan failed.

Only after the worlds population became so great that they were stuck where they are and were not "mobile" and were hardcore established then he had something solid to work with regardless of who came or went in politics or religion because the money would always be there, mounds of gold and jewels always there in one or the others hands. Things were solid regardless of which religion or politic held sway.

Once there was enough people and enough nations, enough to play one against another he then decided that he was going to give up his toy career as a national accountant for the enjoyment of the slaughter and go private.

He saw his target and acquired it which was easy since the only emotion that he found there was greed.

So if you are going to back track down the antichrist, looking to political leaders to accuse is a long proven fallacy because none of them ever foot the bill then or now; the same goes for accusing religious leaders because they don't cut the mustard either.

Besides, antichrist being wise, would never expose himself as political and or religious leader until it was TOO LATE and to his advantage.

Money first, that's where the power rests. Once the globe sits financially in his hand where he can make or break nations at will then we can talk turkey. Once that is in his hand, as it is now, then he can dictate law and later when the nations become under a uniform form of law then he dictate religion.

He is just getting warmed up because is already in financial control and already dictating law and those "officials" of the nations who play along are dupes.

I may have underestimated you. Napsnacks, I would like to learn a little more from you, concerning the possible route of the advent of the beast, (yeah, I know, but I don't care. You know who I am talking about, because I refuse to call him THE antichrist, forthere are many of them, but one of him.) Feel free to contact me via email, even the email on this forum.

brother coolbreeze
Jan 8th 2007, 10:16 PM
Midnightwatcher,

You are absolutely correct.

The antichrist will not rule the whole world.

One must be careful when interpreting the word all. There are over 20 words in the Greek and over 20 words in Hebrew for the word all.
There are also dozens of examples in scripture where the word all is used where it never means the entirety of the whole.

The coming antichrist's rule will be limited to his ten nation "Islamic kingdom". Possibly the alliance mentioned in Psalm 83. This kingdom will develop from the events...and coming events that are taking place in the Middle East.

God bless,
BC

napsnsnacks
Jan 9th 2007, 12:34 AM
Midnightwatcher,

You are absolutely correct.

The antichrist will not rule the whole world.

One must be careful when interpreting the word all. There are over 20 words in the Greek and over 20 words in Hebrew for the word all.
There are also dozens of examples in scripture where the word all is used where it never means the entirety of the whole.

The coming antichrist's rule will be limited to his ten nation "Islamic kingdom". Possibly the alliance mentioned in Psalm 83. This kingdom will develop from the events...and coming events that are taking place in the Middle East.

God bless,
BC


Is there a missing twelveth prince?

GEN 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Steve777
Jan 11th 2008, 12:52 PM
"In reality the Antichrist will be fighting wars "in the name of peace and justice" until the time of Armageddon ... The AntiChrist will be fighting a war for the whole last 3.5 years of the tribulation period (See Dan 9:26b, "..unto the end of the war desolations are determined")."

Quoting from the first post ... me thinks this description sounds pecularly like the "coalition of the willing" led by the ever galant Bush regime crusading in the name of truth, justice & corporate profit!!

Antichrist is literally "in place or instead of the anointing" ... there is only one dominant philosophy/ideology in the world today that claims to be able to manifest the "kingdom of God" without Christ at the helm ... That philosophy is Talmudic Judaism and it's militant offspring Political Zionism.

The scripture tells us that He who has not the Son has not the Father also ... such a one is antichrist.

The US Congress is dictated to by antichrist Zionist lobby groups thus American foreign policy is held captive to antichrist NOW!! ... not some ever on the horizon future.

May God open the eyes of Christian America

Amen

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2008, 01:17 PM
Hello everyone, this is my first post on this message board! So here is the question, "Will the AntiChrist rule over the whole literal earth?" Growing up in a pre-trib Church I have always believe that yes, he most definitely would. Hey, it's what I've been taught, so it must be true, right? From Greenland to New Zealand, from Chile to Canada, from the eastern shores of Russia to the western mountains of Iceland and all 50 states of the good 'ol USA, all would be subjugated by him. But is this really Scriptural?

I've been doing some studying on this and from what I've been able to gather it appears that AntiChrist will not rule over the whole literal world as many if not most of us have have been taught. The whole world will not blindly follow him as a charismatic, charming yet deceptive global leader of false peace, though he would love for that to happen. But before entering a quick reply of "but the Bible says all people and nations" or "Scripture clearly states the whole earth", let's consider a few things for a moment. If that were so, then here are a couple of questions:

1. Why does he need to wage war with the saints?
2. Why does he have to force his "mark"?
3. Why is he grieved when powerful ships from the west move against him? (Daniel 11)
4. Why do others wage war against him? (Daniel 11)
5. If he rules the world, then why do seven "good shepherds" raise up against him? (Micah 5)

I believe that the hand of AntiChrist will only stretch by and large over the known world of that time, i.e, the middle eastern world and perhaps the muslim world as a whole, where he will have his greatest influence. When we read in Scripture terms such as "whole earth" or "whole world", how should we understand it? Let's consider the following examples of a figure of speech that is often found in Scripture called a synecdoche. This is a figure of speech known as a synecdoche by which a part is put for the whole, or the whole for a part. It is used repeatedly in the Bible when only a part is meant. We often use it daily by saying things such as "the whole city was there last night," or "everybody in town was there." If we meant such a statement literally we would be telling a falsehood unless it could actually be provable.

Here are some examples in Scripture:

Eze 32:4 "Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee." In this verse, we would not say that every single animal all over the world is going to be eating the bodies of the fallen. It is impossible. 99.99% of the 'beasts of the earth' will be living elsewhere.

Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Obviously, we know that the faith of Christ was not spoken throughout the whole literal world at this time.

Luk 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." There was never a time when Caesar literally taxed all of the world.

1Ki 10:24 "And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart." Another example of hyperbole to make a point. The entire literal earth did not seek after Solomon's wisdom.

Dan 4:1 "Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." Nebuchadnezzar did not rule every single people and nation in the whole literal earth.

In Daniel 7:23 he spoke of a kingdom and said that the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. It sounds like this was suppose to conquer the whole world, but this never happened. Once again we are looking at a part for a whole, or a whole for a part. Basically talking about that part of the world that surrounded the Mediterranean Sea.

When John was baptizing in Matt. 3: 5-6, we see something similar happening. We read, "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." This sounds as if every living soul in all of Judea, Jerusalem, and everyone in the region of Jordan were baptized by John. Where in reality it is a synecdoche letting us know that there was a very large number of people who were baptized by John. Judea is the whole Southern Kingdom of Israel, which at that time was Israel. We know for a fact that not everyone in Israel was baptized by John. John ended up being beheaded by his enemies, because He was hated by the Kings mistress and most of the religious leaders in Israel.

There are other examples of this, such as Acts 2:5, Romans 10:18, Col 1:23, etc.

Obviously, "all" does not always mean literally "all" when a synecdoche is used when looking at a part for a whole, or a whole for a part. Having said that, we know however that God did speak about all in the entire amount sense as long as there were not other Scriptures that revealed it in a different sense. For example: That all have sinned and fallen short; That all men can be saved; That Christ died for all. But when it comes to nations and Kings often times God gives us a clearer picture through other Scriptures to show us the difference.

When we closely research many of these portions of Scripture we begin to realize that the Antichrist will not take over the whole literal world and will not cause everyone in the whole world to take the mark of the beast. He would love to, but he will be unable to do this. The terms "all the world" and "the whole earth" and "all" must be understood in a figurative sense when used of a King of a kingdom of men. This is a figure of speech known as a synecdoche by which a part is put for the whole, or the whole for a part. It is used repeatedly in the Bible when only a part is meant. If we meant such a statement literally we would be telling a falsehood unless it could actually be provable. But the Bible does use it in this sense many times as I've showed above.

Some scriptures that convince many people that AntiChrist rules the whole literal earth are found in Rev.13:7-8, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The word "all" in these scriptures is talking about everyone that he is able to get his hands on. In reality the Antichrist will be fighting wars "in the name of peace and justice" until the time of Armageddon. In order to force everyone in the literal earth to take the "mark" or worship him, he will first have to conquer them, but he won't be able to. The AntiChrist will be fighting a war for the whole last 3.5 years of the tribulation period (See Dan 9:26b, "..unto the end of the war desolations are determined"). Since he will be fighting other nations, it will be impossible for him to be the leader of the whole literal earth. In order for him to be the leader of the world he would first have to conquer every nation and every person in the world. He will never be able to accomplish this. He will fight wars right up to the Battle of Armageddon. This also proves that he will not make every single person in the world take the mark of the Beast (in my opinion, force them to submit to Islam). He would have to first conquer their nations and the world in order to enforce it, but like so many before him, he will fail.

What do you think?

For more reading on this, please visit this website (http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/faq_antichrist.html).

According to the following the answer is yes.

King James Version Revelation 13

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Firstfruits

thunderbyrd
Jan 11th 2008, 03:22 PM
how can he rule over all, how can he cause all to worship him? it's already been done once: the Beatles. how many of us where alive when they played on the ed sullivan show in feb 1964? didn't you see the world change in the wake of that? they conquered western civilization in approximately 20 mintues of broadcast time.

he will conquer the world through charisma - by presenting a plan so reasonable and sensible (reasonable and sensible if you don't know and beleive the Bible, that is) that any thinking, caring person will want to be a part of it. that's how he will conquer the whole world.

thunderbyrd
Jan 11th 2008, 03:24 PM
"I just don’t get how someone from Europe can have control over the USA"

;)

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2008, 04:26 PM
how can he rule over all, how can he cause all to worship him? it's already been done once: the Beatles. how many of us where alive when they played on the ed sullivan show in feb 1964? didn't you see the world change in the wake of that? they conquered western civilization in approximately 20 mintues of broadcast time.

he will conquer the world through charisma - by presenting a plan so reasonable and sensible (reasonable and sensible if you don't know and beleive the Bible, that is) that any thinking, caring person will want to be a part of it. that's how he will conquer the whole world.

Christ has revealed to John that the following will happen;

Rev 13:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This will be world wide or else you could go to another country/land to escape.

thunderbyrd
Jan 11th 2008, 06:29 PM
Christ has revealed to John that the following will happen;

Rev 13:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This will be world wide or else you could go to another country/land to escape.

i totally agree with you, Firstfruits. my point is that he will gain the whole world's co-operation through charm, through seduction, more than by force. you catch more flies with sugar than with a flyswatter...

ross3421
Jan 11th 2008, 07:01 PM
This will be world wide or else you could go to another country/land to escape.


Ask yourself what will "world wide" look like at this point?

Re 17:3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Re 17:15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


It is apparent that Baylon sits in the midst of desolation and is the city of the world. A world in which the population is centrally located around it.

Now look at what occurs prior to the man of sin standing up in the holy place which would make our current world a wilderness.

Mt 24:7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


So when we speak of the AC controlling the "whole world" is correct but a world whereby the population is around this city at the onset. There will not be US, France, Australia ect...


Mark

Jude1:21
Jan 11th 2008, 07:20 PM
I look at the world around me today, and I look at the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation.

In bible prophesy, I see the world in which I am living.

Dan and Rev focus a lot of their prophesies on the 4th kingdom/empire that would rule over men until the coming of the Son of Man in power.

Rev 13 puts a major focus on the last events prior to Jesus coming. Between the first beast, and the second beast, the whole world will be made to worship the first beast, and receive the mark of the beast, in order to be able to buy or sell.

Today we are living in the days of the roll out of rfid chip technology. It has been around for a while, but with advances in computer technology, both in the computing power, and in the reduction of size, this technology is now at the point where it can be implemented reasonably cheaply.

We are witnessing the development of major changes to our main forms of ID. Our passports and drivers licenses are about to receive one of these rfid chips. And there is a major upgrade happening with the computer databases of personal information which are used in conjunction with these forms of ID.

Each state of the USA, and in other nations around the world, these databases are being upgraded individually. However, it is also noted with concern, that these individual database systems are required to be interlinked. Not only between each state with in the USA, but also internationally. This means the development of a world wide interlinkable system of personal identification of any one any where any time. Live.

Add to this picture, the roll out of these rfid chips in every nation, going onto every product that you can buy or sell.

Add to this picture, the intergration of these rfid chips into the electronic banking system, by way of having a chip in your credit card, cash card, debit card, in your cheques, and in your money.

You now have a picture of the development on a global scale, of a system of identification, banking, travel, that affects every one. This places into the governments, or any one else in postion of power, the ability at the push of a button, to prevent you from buying and selling. Until now, you could do that with credit cards and cash cards, but people could still use money to do what they liked. But today things have changed. Many people today dont get paid in cash. Its all done electronically. Most today get their money by going into a bank, or to an ATM machine, or change from a shop. And when the chip goes into the money, they can link the money to you by the chip inside it, and the chip inside the plastic that you use to get the money. These systems are already being tested.

So, when I see the scriptures talking about the power of antichrist being over the whole world, I look at the above, and I can see very clearly, yes.

:agree: I believe that all will be compelled to take the mark of the beast the verichip.
There will be many believers in Christ who will be decieved and take the mark.
Those who were not raptured but do not take the mark and keep the faith will be martyred but will take their place in the lambs book of life.

My heart's Desire
Jan 12th 2008, 04:47 AM
My opinion is that his influence and control will be over those worldwide who accept him as god. I believe his main area of concern and operation will be in the Middle East though. We have to remember that he will not be alone at first but a false religion will also surround him.

napsnsnacks
Jan 12th 2008, 10:12 PM
For whatever it's worth...

I was reading some news and if that news was correct (a variety of trusted sources) Congress has denied funding for the national ID card and denied funding for the chips that are or were supposed to be in those cards.

So if the news is correct that scare that we are all going to get marked was a paranoid hoax and has passed.

The result of this is that to compensate for the no go national ID card, all states must conform to a uniform and consistent format of citizen identification and it does not include the chip.

Firstfruits
Jan 13th 2008, 12:07 PM
For whatever it's worth...

I was reading some news and if that news was correct (a variety of trusted sources) Congress has denied funding for the national ID card and denied funding for the chips that are or were supposed to be in those cards.

So if the news is correct that scare that we are all going to get marked was a paranoid hoax and has passed.

The result of this is that to compensate for the no go national ID card, all states must conform to a uniform and consistent format of citizen identification and it does not include the chip.

We do not know what this mark will be but it will belong to the beast, and unless we have that mark, or worship the beast and his image at that time we shall be killed.

napsnsnacks
Jan 13th 2008, 11:53 PM
We do not know what this mark will be but it will belong to the beast, and unless we have that mark, or worship the beast and his image at that time we shall be killed.

My post addresses what it won't be and it won't be (until further legal notice) a federal ID card with a computer chip in it and it won't be a state ID with a computer chip in it.

The worst that it will have is a magnetic strip on it. The "digital" drivers license lends to digital/chip fears is nothing more than a digital picture and hologram of your photo taken by an electronic camera instead of a traditional camera and film.

If having a magnetic strip on a plastic card is the mark of the beast, well, we all got that back in the 70's, lol, if a digital camera photo of us is the mark of the beast, then, we're all doomed, lol.

Here is the chain of events to the best of my knowledge though I could be wrong or missed one:

(1) I suspect the federal id card was more greed than antichrist anyway and in my opinion was the result of these chip makers hiring lobbyists to put pressure on our government so that they can cash in on about 277 million ID holding Americans. 277x(chip cost)=big scheme.

(as always someone or some group latched onto this legislation a long time ago to get people onto their religious end of the world bandwagon resulting in fear and lots of money flooding in to the doomsayers)

(2) The cost to the fed was enormous and failed then a consistent and uniform format it became.

(3) Congress denied funding for it. (twice I think)

(4) Then it was reduced to being a consistent and uniform format of state ID and in that it was a federal mandate to the states.

(5) The states objected because a federal mandate must be funded by the fed and the fed is sadly short on that. (still being debated)

(6) The fed is demanding the new format in a physically impossible time span both for the states to implement it and at the current rate of ID/license issuance/expiration/renewal (my current ID is valid 6 years).

(7) This time span demand essentially voids the right to what one paid for and regardless of expiration date they must all be voided by you going back to the state early and paying a second time for a new ID.

(8) If we don't pay extra then the state has to eat the costs (literally billions) of replacing all our ID's. Or to meet the time demands the fed has to fund this mandate.

(9) Funding and the impossibly short amount of time demand that it must come to pass has killed this issue and is still in court or where ever.

Again, as with everything else: (as always someone or some group latched onto this legislation a long time ago to get people onto their religious end of the world bandwagon resulting in fear and lots of money flooding in to the doomsayers)

(10) More than a few states have outright rejected the feds demands and have no plans to comply.

(notice that all the doomsayers are NOT packing up and moving to these states to save themselves from what they say is the mark of the beast, LOL, hypocrites, and is proof even they don't believe their own machinations. The only beast involved in this is these hypocrites lies/manipulation and fear tactics. They cash in, theres no end of the world or mark of the beast, the whole issue fades away then they blow it on cars and mansions)

If it cannot be brought to pass to get computer chips into ID's on a state/national level.......

Imagine the impending failure of doing this on an international level.......

Imagine the impending failure of actually getting all humans implanted in some form with a computer chip.....

Imagine the disillusionment and depression of all those who gave ear to the end of the world doomsayers.

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2008, 09:15 AM
My post addresses what it won't be and it won't be (until further legal notice) a federal ID card with a computer chip in it and it won't be a state ID with a computer chip in it.

The worst that it will have is a magnetic strip on it. The "digital" drivers license lends to digital/chip fears is nothing more than a digital picture and hologram of your photo taken by an electronic camera instead of a traditional camera and film.

If having a magnetic strip on a plastic card is the mark of the beast, well, we all got that back in the 70's, lol, if a digital camera photo of us is the mark of the beast, then, we're all doomed, lol.

Here is the chain of events to the best of my knowledge though I could be wrong or missed one:

(1) I suspect the federal id card was more greed than antichrist anyway and in my opinion was the result of these chip makers hiring lobbyists to put pressure on our government so that they can cash in on about 277 million ID holding Americans. 277x(chip cost)=big scheme.

(as always someone or some group latched onto this legislation a long time ago to get people onto their religious end of the world bandwagon resulting in fear and lots of money flooding in to the doomsayers)

(2) The cost to the fed was enormous and failed then a consistent and uniform format it became.

(3) Congress denied funding for it. (twice I think)

(4) Then it was reduced to being a consistent and uniform format of state ID and in that it was a federal mandate to the states.

(5) The states objected because a federal mandate must be funded by the fed and the fed is sadly short on that. (still being debated)

(6) The fed is demanding the new format in a physically impossible time span both for the states to implement it and at the current rate of ID/license issuance/expiration/renewal (my current ID is valid 6 years).

(7) This time span demand essentially voids the right to what one paid for and regardless of expiration date they must all be voided by you going back to the state early and paying a second time for a new ID.

(8) If we don't pay extra then the state has to eat the costs (literally billions) of replacing all our ID's. Or to meet the time demands the fed has to fund this mandate.

(9) Funding and the impossibly short amount of time demand that it must come to pass has killed this issue and is still in court or where ever.

Again, as with everything else: (as always someone or some group latched onto this legislation a long time ago to get people onto their religious end of the world bandwagon resulting in fear and lots of money flooding in to the doomsayers)

(10) More than a few states have outright rejected the feds demands and have no plans to comply.

(notice that all the doomsayers are NOT packing up and moving to these states to save themselves from what they say is the mark of the beast, LOL, hypocrites, and is proof even they don't believe their own machinations. The only beast involved in this is these hypocrites lies/manipulation and fear tactics. They cash in, theres no end of the world or mark of the beast, the whole issue fades away then they blow it on cars and mansions)

If it cannot be brought to pass to get computer chips into ID's on a state/national level.......

Imagine the impending failure of doing this on an international level.......

Imagine the impending failure of actually getting all humans implanted in some form with a computer chip.....

Imagine the disillusionment and depression of all those who gave ear to the end of the world doomsayers.

How does this apply to the following?

Rev 13:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Remember this is what Christ has revealed to John that will happen.

napsnsnacks
Jan 14th 2008, 10:06 PM
How does this apply to the following?

Rev 13:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Remember this is what Christ has revealed to John that will happen.



It doesn't apply, which was the whole point. Someone needs to latch onto something else for another end of the world scare and to pump up paranoia about the mark of the beast since once again, as has always been a failure so far on 100% of thousands of such prognostications, it came to nothing.

It seems the church is a sucker for punishment.

These things should be examples to Christians everywhere that religious propaganda is just as much alive as political.

quiet dove
Jan 15th 2008, 02:02 AM
It doesn't apply, which was the whole point. Someone needs to latch onto something else for another end of the world scare and to pump up paranoia about the mark of the beast since once again, as has always been a failure so far on 100% of thousands of such prognostications, it came to nothing.

It seems the church is a sucker for punishment.

These things should be examples to Christians everywhere that religious propaganda is just as much alive as political.

The different scares through history have given some the ammo they need to profit, no doubt. But the mark of the beast will come, one way or another, and sensible watching for Christ, which would be sensible watching of and for the things prophecied isnt propaganda. That there will be a mark of the beast is not propaganda though some may try to use it as such.

ross3421
Jan 15th 2008, 03:44 AM
Someone needs to latch onto something else for another end of the world scare

This is your world scare which leads to the Mark. Also note that there is another world scare which will lead to the Mark of God.

Mt 24:7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Leads to the AC

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

---------------------------------

Mt 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Leads to the real C

Mt 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


So what we have is Satan creating an end of the world scenario likened unto God's wrath, plaques ect..... priming the folks to believe Christ is returning.


Mark

Firstfruits
Jan 15th 2008, 10:44 AM
It doesn't apply, which was the whole point. Someone needs to latch onto something else for another end of the world scare and to pump up paranoia about the mark of the beast since once again, as has always been a failure so far on 100% of thousands of such prognostications, it came to nothing.

It seems the church is a sucker for punishment.

These things should be examples to Christians everywhere that religious propaganda is just as much alive as political.

With the understanding that this is what Christ revealed to John, is Christ therefore the author of propagation?

napsnsnacks
Jan 15th 2008, 12:10 PM
Well, note that I never did deny the mark of the beast or its eventual showing.

napsnsnacks
Jan 15th 2008, 02:33 PM
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23401099-details/The+world+will+end+in+2060%2C+according+to+Newton/article.do


"This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail." (Sir Isaac Newton)

RJ Mac
Jan 15th 2008, 04:59 PM
Will the anti-Christ literally rule the whole world?

1Jn.2:18 ...you have heard that the anti-Christ is coming, even now many anti-Christs have come by which we know this is the last hour.

I don't put stock into the fact that there will be one anti-Christ. In fact it is a mindset when you think about it, which almost fits the mark of the beast. Ask anyone, do you believe in Christ - No! They have the mark, which is not so much a mark as it is not having the Holy Spirit. Rev.7:1-4 Christians have the mark on their foreheads, not a physical mark - but when God sees us, He sees us covered in the blood of Christ, clothed in Christ, with the Holy Spirit indwelling our temple. Bad example would be today if you do not posses a credit card you are marked by all financial institutions, they know you by your credit record, it you don't have credit, your a zero in their eyes, your marked, but blessed because your not being swallowed up by debt.

Will the anti-Christ rule the world, the spirit of anti-Christ will rule the world yes, if it doesn't already. People worship money more than God. Canada I know is no longer considered a Christian nation because to qualify 20% of the population have to be regular fellowshippers, those who find the need to fellowship on a regular basis, 1Jn.1:6-8 Canadian stats are like 18%. I heard the other day the USA has slipped under 20%. Now this might not mean much to many, but to me it means unbelievers (anti-Christs) are rampant, so it will be easy to keep God out of the schools and out of the gov't institutions. To me this is the spirit of the anti-Christ ruling our nations.

But this is nothing to fear, for it is inevitable is it not?
Lk.18:8 Nevertheless when the Son of Man comes will He find faith on the earth.
There is nothing to fear because even when satan gathers his forces Rev.20:7-10 before he can touch Christians, fire comes down and takes them away.

Only fear we should have is - Ecc.12:13 Fear God and keep His commandments for this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.

We're not called to save the world - were called to - Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine, continue in them, for in so doing you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

RJ Mac

Jude1:21
Jan 16th 2008, 07:10 PM
He will neve rule the Christians who love Jesus and remain on the earth until the 2nd Advent faithfully waiting for Him, and faithfully continuing to share the gospel with the lost until Christ returns.

I believe that many Christians will be deceived in the end days as prophesied in the scriptures and take the mark of the beast.
There will be new believers in Christ,those who do not know the scriptures well and those with some or no faith will be deceived by the teaching of false doctrine.
We are seeing that today with the apostasy in various churches,the condoning of sexual immorality,the acceptance of abortion and the worshiping of idols ie the DollarBill
I agree that those through all this who keep faithful to Him through all this and share True doctrine with others will be saved.
Many will be persecuted and many killed in His name

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 05:02 PM
I believe that many Christians will be deceived in the end days as prophesied in the scriptures and take the mark of the beast.
There will be new believers in Christ,those who do not know the scriptures well and those with some or no faith will be deceived by the teaching of false doctrine.
We are seeing that today with the apostasy in various churches,the condoning of sexual immorality,the acceptance of abortion and the worshiping of idols ie the DollarBill
I agree that those through all this who keep faithful to Him through all this and share True doctrine with others will be saved.
Many will be persecuted and many killed in His name

With regards to the mark of the beast or worshiping the beast there will be only two choices, live or die.

napsnsnacks
Jan 27th 2008, 11:09 AM
With regards to the mark of the beast or worshiping the beast there will be only two choices, live or die.

Live or die?

If the mark is figurative couldn't this be that a confession of Christ will get you killed and a confession to honor and worship the beast means you live?

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2008, 11:26 AM
Live or die?

If the mark is figurative couldn't this be that a confession of Christ will get you killed and a confession to honor and worship the beast means you live?

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Mt 24:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And then shall many be offended, And shall betray one another, And shall hate one another.

Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

napsnsnacks
Jan 29th 2008, 01:43 PM
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Mt 24:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And then shall many be offended, And shall betray one another, And shall hate one another.

Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Notice something...

Whether the mark of the beast is literal or figurative, both render the same identical results.

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2008, 01:47 PM
Notice something...

Whether the mark of the beast is literal or figurative, both render the same identical results.

That is agreed, thanks.

2Witnesses
Feb 1st 2008, 07:52 AM
I do not think he rules the whole world. 'All' does not always mean all. It was said of Nebu,,, that he ruled every kingdom under heaven. So I think it will be regional. But his influence will be great. Remember, there are some kingdoms which come against him, Daniel 11.

2Witness

Firstfruits
Feb 1st 2008, 09:23 AM
I do not think he rules the whole world. 'All' does not always mean all. It was said of Nebu,,, that he ruled every kingdom under heaven. So I think it will be regional. But his influence will be great. Remember, there are some kingdoms which come against him, Daniel 11.

2Witness

With the understanding that God pours out his wrath upon the beast and his kingdom, would that mean that as long as we are not in the kingdom of the beast we shal not have to fear Gods wrath?

How would you explain this scripture, knowing that not everyone will be in the book of life?

Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Would this not then have to be the whole world?

napsnsnacks
Feb 1st 2008, 02:19 PM
I do not think he rules the whole world. 'All' does not always mean all. It was said of Nebu,,, that he ruled every kingdom under heaven. So I think it will be regional. But his influence will be great. Remember, there are some kingdoms which come against him, Daniel 11.

2Witness

So true.

You can't be one world ruler when other nations are coming after you because those nations apparently have leaders and armies, and, because as global ruler you would have disposed of that threat already and those leaders by some method would have been disposed of and the armies would have been absorbed into your agenda and other nations and other armies wouldn't exist.

Firstfruits
Feb 1st 2008, 02:54 PM
So true.

You can't be one world ruler when other nations are coming after you because those nations apparently have leaders and armies, and, because as global ruler you would have disposed of that threat already and those leaders by some method would have been disposed of and the armies would have been absorbed into your agenda and other nations and other armies wouldn't exist.

So regarding the following, are you saying that Gods wrath will not affect all the earth because of worship of the beast?

Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

napsnsnacks
Feb 1st 2008, 11:22 PM
So regarding the following, are you saying that Gods wrath will not affect all the earth because of worship of the beast?

Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Of course it will effect all the earth.

Look at what is said in the judgments and woes and what have you to the earth as a whole and what will happen to those who worship the beast.

In my statement that you quoted I only made light of the issue that nations and armies are going to war on antichrist so in effect if he was one world global ruler these other nations and armies would not even be there would they? At some point these things would have been subverted or absorbed into his rulership and his military as a one world leader.

We also must consider that antichrist could have a government kind of like the US where the president is boss but the states are ruled by governors as other countries have similar forms of government hierarchy.

Also we must consider that these nations (races of people in this context of nations) and armies that war on antichrist could be his own rulers/generals, after he becomes global ruler, in an attempted coup.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2008, 09:28 AM
Of course it will effect all the earth.

Look at what is said in the judgments and woes and what have you to the earth as a whole and what will happen to those who worship the beast.

In my statement that you quoted I only made light of the issue that nations and armies are going to war on antichrist so in effect if he was one world global ruler these other nations and armies would not even be there would they? At some point these things would have been subverted or absorbed into his rulership and his military as a one world leader.

We also must consider that antichrist could have a government kind of like the US where the president is boss but the states are ruled by governors as other countries have similar forms of government hierarchy.

Also we must consider that these nations (races of people in this context of nations) and armies that war on antichrist could be his own rulers/generals, after he becomes global ruler, in an attempted coup.

According to the following, only those that worship the beast and his image and receive his mark shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, so if Gods wrath will affect the whole world, then The rule of the beast must be world wide in order for God to pour out his wrath on the whole earth.

Rev 14:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

napsnsnacks
Feb 4th 2008, 11:59 AM
According to the following, only those that worship the beast and his image and receive his mark shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, so if Gods wrath will affect the whole world, then The rule of the beast must be world wide in order for God to pour out his wrath on the whole earth.

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

"because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication"

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Eternal punishment in the lake of fire, which is the second death? A reference to the hereafter?

"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,"

Those also suffer eternal punishment in the lake of fire, which is the second death, whom are the ones who got the mark of the beast?

A reference to the hereafter?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2008, 01:28 PM
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

"because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication"

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Eternal punishment in the lake of fire, which is the second death? A reference to the hereafter?

"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,"

Those also suffer eternal punishment in the lake of fire, which is the second death, whom are the ones who got the mark of the beast?

A reference to the hereafter?

whom are the ones who got the mark of the beast?

Those that are here during the reign of the beast/antichrist. The beast/antichrist that implements the mark will be here when Christ returns.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Unless Christ has already come, then the kingdom of the beast is yet to be established, as it will not be destroyed until Christs return.

napsnsnacks
Feb 4th 2008, 08:40 PM
whom are the ones who got the mark of the beast?

Those that are here during the reign of the beast/antichrist. The beast/antichrist that implements the mark will be here when Christ returns.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Unless Christ has already come, then the kingdom of the beast is yet to be established, as it will not be destroyed until Christs return.


The reference is the dispensation of these people in the afterlife, not a reference that New York is Babylon and that the US is headquarters for antichrist.

These scriptures you reference clearly attain to and clearly speak of their punishment in the after life compared to any interpretation of this now that any particular city on earth, especially New York is "Babylon."

Remove the references to the hereafter in these verses and it might work but that's chopping up the bible..

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2008, 12:14 PM
The reference is the dispensation of these people in the afterlife, not a reference that New York is Babylon and that the US is headquarters for antichrist.

These scriptures you reference clearly attain to and clearly speak of their punishment in the after life compared to any interpretation of this now that any particular city on earth, especially New York is "Babylon."

Remove the references to the hereafter in these verses and it might work but that's chopping up the bible..

Hello Napsnacks,

Who was this for?

Roelof
Feb 10th 2008, 04:08 AM
I believe that the final Antichrist will literally rule over the whole world.

Satan is the god of darkness (2 Corinthians 4:3); the god of this world(2 Corinthians 4:4)
Satan wants to put himself in the place of God, he wants the people to worship him (Revelation 13:3)
Satan’s strategy for the people to worship him, is to gain control over the people of the world. (Colossians 1:13)

The final Antichrist will have total political, religious and economic power over the world. (Rev 13:4,8,17)
After the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:15-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-58) of the Church of the New Born, Satan could control the economy and politics of the world, if he could control the following 7 regions:
· EUROPEAN UNION,
· COMMONWEALTH OF INDEPENDENT STATES (CIS)
· ASSOCIATION OF SOUTHEAST ASIANS NATIONS (ASEAN) + 3
· AUSTRALASIA
· NORTH AMERICA: USA & CANADA
· SOUTH AMERICA
· AFRICAN UNION

If One World Religion is in place just after the Rapture, Satan will also control the religion of the world. My view point that we are already heading towards an One World Religion.

Firstfruits
Feb 10th 2008, 11:49 AM
I believe that the final Antichrist will literally rule over the whole world.

Satan is the god of darkness (2 Corinthians 4:3); the god of this world(2 Corinthians 4:4)
Satan wants to put himself in the place of God, he wants the people to worship him (Revelation 13:3)
Satan’s strategy for the people to worship him, is to gain control over the people of the world. (Colossians 1:13)

The final Antichrist will have total political, religious and economic power over the world. (Rev 13:4,8,17)
After the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:15-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-58) of the Church of the New Born, Satan could control the economy and politics of the world, if he could control the following 7 regions:
· EUROPEAN UNION,
· COMMONWEALTH OF INDEPENDENT STATES (CIS)
· ASSOCIATION OF SOUTHEAST ASIANS NATIONS (ASEAN) + 3
· AUSTRALASIA
· NORTH AMERICA: USA & CANADA
· SOUTH AMERICA
· AFRICAN UNION

If One World Religion is in place just after the Rapture, Satan will also control the religion of the world. My view point that we are already heading towards an One World Religion.

May I ask how you get the rapture/return of Christ before the beast has reigned over the saints and overcome them ie killed them?

Plus the fact that when Christ returns the beasts kingdom is destroyed.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

eamourn21
Nov 21st 2014, 05:07 PM
THANK YOU. I too have found that much of what I was raised to believe is not even based on actual text of the scriptures, but instead is thinking that emerged from seminary schools. God Bless You. I am glad to see that there are others like me who are seeking truth, plain and simple, with no hidden agenda!
God Bless, Lizzie

Catsmeow
Nov 21st 2014, 08:45 PM
What an AWESOME THREAD! :spin:


My question (to those fine minds who will read over this again) is: has anything changed since then? Have further studies revealed different facts, or has further knowledge been obtained?

AWESOME! :hug:

dan
Nov 26th 2014, 02:24 PM
I don't think he'll have the entire world, no.

I agree.

There is mentioned in the Bible a place that the "Children of God" will gather to get away from the rule of the beast.

It will also be the place that the beast will send some of his soldiers to "make war with" the people of God.

The United States Of America.

Scuba
Dec 17th 2014, 05:33 PM
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