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PeterJ
Oct 28th 2006, 01:54 PM
Is it a sin to protect yourself from danger? or to protect others?
Is sin a lie? what is a white lie? where did that term come from?

Yours Peter

willb
Oct 28th 2006, 10:09 PM
Ive said yes. Lie's are decietful and not a Christlike thing to do.

Its not as easy putting it into practice however.

susan7522
Oct 29th 2006, 04:49 AM
I voted yes! If you lie you are commiting a sin.

Yodas_Prodigy
Oct 29th 2006, 01:09 PM
Reposted elsewhere with quotes

Yodas_Prodigy
Oct 29th 2006, 01:11 PM
Is it a sin to protect yourself from danger? or to protect others?
Is sin a lie? what is a white lie? where did that term come from?

Yours Peter

Rahab committed no sin in protecting the spies. If a woman says "How do I look in this outfit?", do I tell her the truth? It depends on the woman and the circumstances. If I tell her that she looks hideous, well there you go, I may have been better off not answering.

I believe the scriptures are clear regarding bearing false witness.

Lieing is a slightly different topic.

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PeterJ
Oct 29th 2006, 04:35 PM
If we lied to save 30 people from dieing in the world world 2 would that still be a sin?

Joanna Joy
Oct 29th 2006, 06:28 PM
Is it a sin to lie?
Yes.
Always?
Yes.

Proverbs 12:19 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
Proverbs 3:3 "Do not let kindness and truth leave you."
Proverbs 8:7 "My mouth will utter truth."

Would I have lied to the Nazis about Jews hiding in my home? Yes.
Am I pleased that Rahab protected the spies? Yes.

But a lie is still a lie, and sin is still sin.

PeterJ
Oct 29th 2006, 07:07 PM
Is it a sin to lie?
Yes.
Always?
Yes.

Proverbs 12:19 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
Proverbs 3:3 "Do not let kindness and truth leave you."
Proverbs 8:7 "My mouth will utter truth."

Would I have lied to the Nazis about Jews hiding in my home? Yes.
Am I pleased that Rahab protected the spies? Yes.

But a lie is still a lie, and sin is still sin.

Thanks got any NT verses?

Butero
Oct 30th 2006, 09:56 PM
Revelation 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, AND ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Based on this scripture, I voted yes.

KennethDCollins
Oct 30th 2006, 10:44 PM
It's one of the 10 commandments, for crying out loud. How would it not be a sin?

Joanna Joy
Oct 30th 2006, 10:52 PM
Thanks got any NT verses?

1 Tim 5:10,11 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.

Song of Songs
Oct 30th 2006, 11:02 PM
It's a sin to avoid committing a smaller sin by committing a larger sin. Lying is not something that should be encouraged under normal circumstances, but it's a different matter when telling the truth would be very dangerous or harmful to another person or ourselves. It's something that takes careful discernment.

By the way, the ten commandment refers only to perjury, if I recall correctly.

Song of Songs
Oct 30th 2006, 11:05 PM
Am I pleased that Rahab protected the spies? Yes.

But a lie is still a lie, and sin is still sin.

Rahab didn't sin, as she was held as an example of faith in Hebrews and James.

KennethDCollins
Oct 30th 2006, 11:24 PM
I'm sorry, but please explain when sin stopped being sin. :confused

cheech
Oct 30th 2006, 11:28 PM
It's one of the 10 commandments, for crying out loud. How would it not be a sin?

:rofl: You took the words right outta my fingers! :lol:

But in Peter's defense, I understand his questioning when it comes to danger. Would it still be a sin to lie if in danger. Now...this is just my opinion...not biblical or anything, but I think God would be a bit more lenient on us if we were in danger (real danger now...life and death danger) and had to lie. It's most likely still a sin cuz we lied...but life and death is the only reason I feel this way.

:hmm: then again...if we lie in life and death situation, doesn't that mean we aren't putting our trust in God to see us through? :hmm:

KennethDCollins
Oct 30th 2006, 11:55 PM
:hmm: then again...if we lie in life and death situation, doesn't that mean we aren't putting our trust in God to see us through? :hmm:I think I'd have to agree with that statement. Okay, so it was actually a question, but you get my meaning.

Pleroo
Oct 31st 2006, 12:18 AM
I voted "no, not if it's protecting someone", based mostly on the times that this was done by people in the Bible, as well as the fact that the commandmant is not against lying in general, but specifically against bearing false witness against another person or trying to cheat someone for material gain.

I respect those who feel differently. It reminds me of the story of Corrie ten Boom. Her sister was adamantly opposed to lying to protect those they were hiding during the holocost, believing it was against God's command. She refused to lie to save herself or anyone else. The others in her family did not agree with her stance, as I recall, not even Corrie herself. But they did respect her for standing by her convictions, as do I.

Joanna Joy
Oct 31st 2006, 01:23 AM
OK, I'll go along with "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor" as not ruling out all lies, but what about:

Proverbs 12:19 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
That seems pretty clear to me.

As for Rahab, she's commended for her FAITH in Hebrews 11 - not for her honesty. God uses sinful men and women to fulfill His plans, and I've always admired Rahab's faith and courage. Even so, I believe that God could have protected the spies without Rahab's lie.

I just cannot bring myself to believe that God ever WANTS us to do something that His word says is an abomination to Him.

KennethDCollins
Oct 31st 2006, 01:26 AM
I whole-heartedly agree. Good post.

Pleroo
Oct 31st 2006, 01:43 AM
OK, I'll go along with "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor" as not ruling out all lies, but what about:

Proverbs 12:19 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
That seems pretty clear to me.

As for Rahab, she's commended for her FAITH in Hebrews 11 - not for her honesty. God uses sinful men and women to fulfill His plans, and I've always admired Rahab's faith and courage. Even so, I believe that God could have protected the spies without Rahab's lie.

I just cannot bring myself to believe that God ever WANTS us to do something that His word says is an abomination to Him.

Other translations (some of the more literal ones) have similar to this:

The lip of truth is established for ever,
And for a moment -- a tongue of falsehood.


But, regardless of how you interepret that passage, I do hear what you're saying, Joanna and I understand the difficulty of reconciling these things. For instance, Abraham, who not only lied but was blessed by God as a result. I simply feel that there is a time and place where truth ought not to be shared when it puts others in harms way. Even Jesus withheld truth from his own brothers. (John 7:8)

Many Christians who say lying is wrong wouldn't think twice about deceiving in order to throw a surprise party or pull off some other type of pleasant surprise. So, putting it in context, I don't think that lying in order to protect God's most precious gift -- life -- is wrong.

RND
Oct 31st 2006, 04:15 AM
Exodus 20:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


It is not a sin to lie to protect someone, or to prevent evil against someone. That's why the commandment doesn't say, "thou shalt not lie." It clearly says what it means and means what it says.

Psalm 15:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=15&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=9&context=context)

He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.


3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.


Psalm 94:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=94&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity


17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

always
Oct 31st 2006, 06:00 PM
Rahab committed no sin in protecting the spies. If a woman says "How do I look in this outfit?", do I tell her the truth? It depends on the woman and the circumstances. If I tell her that she looks hideous, well there you go, I may have been better off not answering.

I believe the scriptures are clear regarding bearing false witness.

Lieing is a slightly different topic.


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What Rahab did was an strategic act of faith in the Hebrew God that she had heard of.

Being a prostitute Rahab laid with soldiers, and men talk, she heard the accounts of the Hebrew God, and how HE delivered his people.

Faith comes by hearing!!!!

When these people were upon her she believing in her heart the things that she had heard, acted out in faith as only she could for her and her family to be saved.

False witnessing is the telling of an account that you did not see with your own eyes or hear with your own ears

Song of Songs
Oct 31st 2006, 10:37 PM
I'm sorry, but please explain when sin stopped being sin. :confused

It never has.

Did David sin by eating the showbread?

Joanna Joy
Oct 31st 2006, 11:59 PM
I do hear what you're saying, Joanna and I understand the difficulty of reconciling these things. For instance, Abraham, who not only lied but was blessed by God as a result. I simply feel that there is a time and place where truth ought not to be shared when it puts others in harms way. Even Jesus withheld truth from his own brothers. (John 7:8)

Many Christians who say lying is wrong wouldn't think twice about deceiving in order to throw a surprise party or pull off some other type of pleasant surprise. So, putting it in context, I don't think that lying in order to protect God's most precious gift -- life -- is wrong.

The OT is full of examples of people who lied but were later blessed...we serve a loving God who forgives sin. I can think of no example of someone being blessed BECAUSE they lied, though. Can you clarify what you meant when you said Abraham was blessed by God as a result of his lie(s)?

Also, I don't believe that John 7:8 works in this discussion. While it's true that Jesus didn't share all of His knowledge, He didn't deceive or purposely mislead - He gave as much information as they were capable of handling. Nowhere does the Bible say that you must blurt out everything you know in order to be truthful. On the contrary, we're encouraged to keep our own counsel about most things.

I think what some in this thread are basically saying is, "The end justifies the means." I don't find anything in Scripture that supports that mindset. I serve a loving, forgiving God, and I believe He is willing to forgive my lies and to bless me despite my mistakes. I just don't believe that He ever says, "OK, my child, those lies didn't count because you meant well when you told them."

KennethDCollins
Nov 1st 2006, 12:15 AM
Psalm 5:6
You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.


Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Pleroo
Nov 1st 2006, 12:48 AM
The OT is full of examples of people who lied but were later blessed...we serve a loving God who forgives sin. I can think of no example of someone being blessed BECAUSE they lied, though. Can you clarify what you meant when you said Abraham was blessed by God as a result of his lie(s)?



10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you." 14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.


I suppose you could say that this was not a direct blessing from God, but He is in control and the result of Abram's half-truth deception was material blessing.


Also, I don't believe that John 7:8 works in this discussion. While it's true that Jesus didn't share all of His knowledge, He didn't deceive or purposely mislead - He gave as much information as they were capable of handling. Nowhere does the Bible say that you must blurt out everything you know in order to be truthful. On the contrary, we're encouraged to keep our own counsel about most things.

Jesus specifically told his brothers that He was not going. And then He went. You can call it "keeping His own counsel", but I believe it does have bearing on the conversation here.




I think what some in this thread are basically saying is, "The end justifies the means." I don't find anything in Scripture that supports that mindset. I serve a loving, forgiving God, and I believe He is willing to forgive my lies and to bless me despite my mistakes. I just don't believe that He ever says, "OK, my child, those lies didn't count because you meant well when you told them."

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but since you're addressing me, I guess I'm the one who you believe is saying the end justifies the means. So, no, you'd be wrong. What I'm saying is that I believe the Bible makes it clear that the commandment of God speaks against deceiving others for the purpose of evil. Since saving someone's life from evil people is not an evil purpose I don't believe the commandment speaks against it.

It's sort of like Jesus talking to the Pharisees (and no, I'm not calling you Pharisaical ;), I'm just using this as an example) when they were upset with Him for healing on the Sabbath: Luke 6:9 Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?"


As I said, I respect your conviction in this matter though I disagree with it.

Yodas_Prodigy
Nov 1st 2006, 03:03 AM
I'm sorry, but please explain when sin stopped being sin. :confused

Why is it so hard to separate the protection of humans from being murdered as compared to a real lie that hurts someone in some way eventually?

This is the absurdity of people who do not rightly divide the Word of Truth.

I wonder if some of you really think Christ literally became sin in as described in 2 Corinthians 5:21... or was he a sin offering?

Yodas_Prodigy
Nov 1st 2006, 03:10 AM
Would I have lied to the Nazis about Jews hiding in my home? Yes.
Am I pleased that Rahab protected the spies? Yes.

But a lie is still a lie, and sin is still sin.

So you would be willing to add more sins for the Lord to Pay for on the cross? That is what you are saying...

Suppose we lived in a sinless society (before the fall) and Satan came to kill 30 people. Your one lie to Satan was meant to protect those 30 people and save them. But, in turn, you just nailed the Lord to the Cross.

This shows the absurdity of such a position.

Joanna Joy
Nov 1st 2006, 03:16 AM
Pleroo, thanks for your throrough response! :)

10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you." 14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.


I suppose you could say that this was not a direct blessing from God, but He is in control and the result of Abram's half-truth deception was material blessing.Ok, I thought that probably was the passage you were referring to, but I have never considered the gifts from Pharoh blessings from God because they weren't freely given by God - they were given by Pharoh in payment for Abraham's wife. (Something allowed by God because He's given us free will, rather than something given by God because He chose to please/reward Abraham.) However, as you say, God was in full control of the situation and He allowed Abraham to accept (and keep) the gifts.


Jesus specifically told his brothers that He was not going. And then He went. You can call it "keeping His own counsel", but I believe it does have bearing on the conversation here. Maybe I'm splitting hairs.
7:8,9 You go to the Feast. I am not yet going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come." Having said this He stayed in Galilee. He went later and in 'secret', rather than in the public manner His brothers were urging. To me there's a difference between "not yet" and "I'm not going."


Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but since you're addressing me, I guess I'm the one who you believe is saying the end justifies the means. So, no, you'd be wrong. What I'm saying is that I believe the Bible makes it clear that the commandment of God speaks against deceiving others for the purpose of evil. Since saving someone's life from evil people is not an evil purpose I don't believe the commandment speaks against it. Actually I meant everyone who voted 'No -not if it's protecting others,long as its not a crime' :)

I agree with you, the COMMANDMENT speaks of deceiving others for the purpose of evil. If the topic of this thread was, "Does the 9th commandment say it's a sin to lie?" I'd be with you 100%. However, I'm still responding to the original poll question "Is it a sin to lie?" My vote is based on all Biblical references to lying and liars, not just the 10 commandments.

Joanna Joy
Nov 1st 2006, 03:31 AM
So you would be willing to add more sins for the Lord to Pay for on the cross? That is what you are saying...

Suppose we lived in a sinless society (before the fall) and Satan came to kill 30 people. Your one lie to Satan was meant to protect those 30 people and save them. But, in turn, you just nailed the Lord to the Cross.

This shows the absurdity of such a position.

If I lived in a sinless society (before the fall) there would be no death.

KennethDCollins
Nov 1st 2006, 03:36 AM
Okay, did people not see this verse???

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Joanna Joy
Nov 1st 2006, 11:32 AM
When I said there were no instances of God blessing people BECAUSE of their lies, I was wrong. I forgot about the Hebrew midwives.
Exodus 1:15-22 15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?" 19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive." 20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

I believe God blessed them because they 'feared Him' and refused to kill the babies, not because of their lies - but the Scripture clearly shows that they lied to Pharoh and God blessed them with families of their own.

PeterJ
Nov 1st 2006, 04:07 PM
Okay, did people not see this verse???

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Thats the OT, OT does not apply anymore only NT to us?
That book was writen for the people who lived in that gen not this gen?

PeterJ
Nov 1st 2006, 04:08 PM
Do we have to confess to Jesus and repent if we lie? even if its small like to hide a birthday party from someone as a surprize, its not evil.

KennethDCollins
Nov 2nd 2006, 05:00 AM
Thats the OT, OT does not apply anymore only NT to us?
That book was writen for the people who lived in that gen not this gen?I hope you don't honestly believe that as that was the most... I'm not going to even go there. If you don't like the OT, how about the NT? Does that apply?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

PeterJ
Nov 2nd 2006, 02:45 PM
I hope you don't honestly believe that as that was the most... I'm not going to even go there. If you don't like the OT, how about the NT? Does that apply?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

What i mean we are not under the OT law anymore,but NT which also covers laws lies etc if that makes sence :)

KennethDCollins
Nov 2nd 2006, 02:52 PM
I think you have a misunderstanding of scripture, so please allow me to help. "The Law" refers to the Levitical Law of Moses, the first 5 books of the OT. It does not refer to the OT as a whole, not by any stretch of the imagination. Not being under the law means that we no longer have to sacrifice as the final sacrifice was made for us. It means that we are no longer under the legalism of the early laws, but are judged instead by our heart. Psalms, Proverbs, and all the other books are still valid to our life today.

PeterJ
Nov 2nd 2006, 02:54 PM
Thxs Kenneth both books are kinda sim.

always
Nov 2nd 2006, 04:26 PM
1Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Kathe
Aug 5th 2007, 11:35 AM
Yes but I would probably do it to save someone (like Rahab) or something like that.

Kathe