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Pilgrimtozion
Nov 16th 2006, 04:47 PM
I start this thread due to the fact that the Holy Laughter thread is being closed down and I am interested to hear different opinions about the concept of the Manifestations of the Spirit.

What are Biblically valid manifestations of the Spirit? Those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12? What we find in the book of Acts? What principles should we use to determine whether a manifestation is Biblical, fleshly, or demonic?

Let me know what you think?

amazzin
Nov 16th 2006, 04:59 PM
You know there are too many different positions on this that it will just end up into another "Holy Laughter" mess. One denomination will say it is a demonic and another will say it is not. Then there are those who throw jabs like "test the spiriits" and will use that in the now and ignore the fruits the individual has produced in their life. I get a kick out of those who say "well, we are told to test the spirits". If they only know what this meant it would enlighten them at thier stupidity!

Blahhhhh,....not even going to attempt this one friend,...sorry

Vickilynn
Nov 16th 2006, 06:11 PM
Shalom,

One thing that I go by is whether the "manifestation" is glorifying Jesus, bring all eyes to HIM, or is it glorifying flesh and bringing attention to the person doing it.

Another is whether it is in Scripture as a "manifestation."

Also, quoting the Scriptures to "test the spirits" is not a jab, and anyone who has a problem with that, has a problem with the Scriptures! It is a biblical foundation that we not accept everything part and parcel just because someone says the Holy Spirit says so. We are to test and we are to be wary and on guard so as not to be deceived.

If someone says we should ignore Scripture, well, that says it right there. Their advice is not from G-d.


1 John 4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Pilgrimtozion
Nov 17th 2006, 12:50 PM
Hey Vickilynn,

I believe the primary problem amazzin has with the 'testing the spirit' Scripture, is the way people use it. How easy it is to take a Scripture and throw it around! Sadly, this is what is often done - without reference to the context or true meaning of a verse. That having been said, I agree that this Scripture is valid in tackling the issue of the manifestations of the Spirit.

So you say that manifestations should be mentioned in Scripture. That triggers a very important question: which manifestations are called as such by Scripture? 1 Corinthians 12 mentions gifts, but are they therefore also manifestations? And if so, is the litmus test not rather whether they are for the common good?

Another question I have is the following: why can we not accept manifestations not mentioned by Scriptures but not contradicting anything in Scripture either? Should the Bible be treated as a handbook for acceptable manifestations?

Berean
Nov 17th 2006, 02:05 PM
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 You know that being led away, you nations were led to dumb idols.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God;
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.
1Jo 4:4 You are of God, little children, and you have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world, therefore they speak of the world, and the world hears them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

I thought the whole scripture from 1 John 4 needed to be looked at. We say "Test the spirits", but we don't say how.

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Unfortunately, we have to look at how to test the spirits, what Paul (and others) means by self-control, whether or not it is edifying to the church body, etc.

1 Cor.14 gives a detailed explanation of these things. How the gifts work, when, how, why, and to whom they are directed. And their orderliness in the body. This is scriptures most comprehensive lesson on it.

I, for one, still believe the gifts are in operation today. I see nowhere in scripture that they would stop or have stopped. Not until Jesus returns.

But, they are not being taught according to the scripture. I left a charismatic church because of this. What they were doing and taught did not match scripture, especially these scriptures. Now, I'm NOT saying all charismatic churches do this (or pentecostals) but by and large the majority seem to.

I pay close attention to Pauls admonishments about this (many other things he admonished the early church about).

Anyway, yes this could turn into another hash. But it's still worth discussing if we can keep our cools, be respectful and empathetic.

Peace, Berean

Berean
Nov 17th 2006, 02:11 PM
One of the main reasons, I believe, for these gifts, offices, manisfestations, is the reconciliation of the sinner to God.

Certain ones are for the edification of the body, but others are a sign to the unbelieving.

And that is the whole point of Jesus sacrifice and the sending of the Holy Spirit and scripture.

To reconcile all who will come to Christ.

I think that is one of the litmus tests of whether or not it is of God or not.
Does it edify the body?
And do sinners come to believe in Jesus and are saved?

Berean
Nov 17th 2006, 02:13 PM
1Co 14:20 Brothers, do not be children in your minds, but in malice be like infants, and in your minds be mature.
1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written, "By other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people, and even so they will not hear Me, says the Lord."
1Co 14:22 So that tongues are not a sign to those who believe, but to those who do not believe. But prophesying is not to those who do not believe, but to those who believe.
1Co 14:23 Therefore if the whole church has come together, and all speak in languages, and if uninstructed ones or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you rave?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or one not instructed comes, he is convicted by all, he is judged by all.
1Co 14:25 And so the secrets of his heart become revealed. And so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Seeker of truth
Nov 17th 2006, 02:24 PM
I'm going along with those who feel it's best not to call anything that may be of the Holy Spirit demonic. Being as I don't have the ability to know another persons heart I think I'll pass on judging them.

Frances
Nov 17th 2006, 04:06 PM
One thing that I go by is whether the "manifestation" is glorifying Jesus, bring all eyes to HIM, or is it glorifying flesh and bringing attention to the person doing it. .

Amen!!............................................ ...

BCF
Nov 17th 2006, 04:49 PM
Most of the problem with the gift issue is that most Christians do not believe that that have all of these gifts that are out lined in First Corinthians 12. Yes we are to test the Spirits. But as I have explained in another thread, all testing the Spirits means is to tell the diference between good and evil or the difference between God and satan or the difference between God's way of living and the worlds way or mans way of living. Whichever way you want to define testing the Spirits, what it comes down to is choosing Gods way over satans way, just like Adam and Eve had the chance to test the Spirits back in the Garden. They chose satans way. The testing of Spirits have not changed because the rules of God never change. The only thing that changes is the teachings of man.

The problem that I have about everyone just quoting 1John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." is that they forget what Paul wrote after that verse. Yes I agree this verse is true but we can't just read this verse and say that is it, we go out and test the Spirits and we can find out who is false and who is right. No, this is wrong. Why, because we don't know how to test the Spirits yet. In First John 4:2-3 Paul tells us how to test the Spirits so we can know by saying, By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

Well this is all good and well, but this explanation is not good enough either because everyone or at least almost everyone confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. There are very very few people in this world today who have at least heard the Gospel (not including those who have not heard the Gospel for those of you who want to get tenickel about it) but those who have at least heard the Gospel in some way shape or form confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the Flesh. The Bible tells me in Matthew 8:28-29, "And when he (Jesus) was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils (demons) coming out of the tombs, exceeding firce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" Here in these two verses we have Bible proof that even the devils confess and know that Jesus came in the flesh. So just because someone says that Jesus is God and that they believe that Jesus came in the flesh means nothing as far as testing the Spirits.

But then Paul goes on to give us his complete explanation on how to test the Spirits in his following verses. In First John 4:4-6 Paul writes us this,
You are of God, little children, and you have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore they speak of the world, and the world hears them.
We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. We can tell the difference between the Spirits simply be listening. What are we listening for? We are listening to who is believeing in what the world thinks God's Word is saying and what God says His Word is saying. Just like Paul said. We who are Born of the Spirit of God hears what God is saying in His Word about His Word which is all truth. He who is of the world hears what the world is saying about Gods Word and hears the world. Just like I said in the beginning of this reply. What is testing of the Spirits? telling the diference between good and evil or the difference between God and satan or the difference between God's way of living and the worlds way or mans way of living. Whichever way you want to define testing the Spirits, what it comes down to is choosing Gods way over satans way. We all know this because we all know that we are to live in this world but not be a part of this world. In other words we live here, but we don't do what they do. We are to be different.

As far as the gifts go in first Corinthians 12, I believe that we have each and everyone of them that Pauls mentions. We do not have all of them at one time. But they are all given to each and every Born Again Believer of Our Lord Jesus. I have scripture to back all of that up, and will do so in another reply and not on this one. I think I have made this one long enough. But one thing I will say is that once again we need to look at to why Paul was giving these instructions in the first place to the Church of Corinth. Pauls teaching was not about gifts here, Pauls teaching was actually about Love. These people thought all they needed was the gifts they had from being baptised and accepting Our Lord Jesus. But Paul was telling them No, there is more because you could have all of those gifts, but without Love your Gifts mean nothing to God.

Berean
Nov 17th 2006, 05:41 PM
Most of the problem with the gift issue is that most Christians do not believe that that have all of these gifts that are out lined in First Corinthians 12. Yes we are to test the Spirits. But as I have explained in another thread, all testing the Spirits means is to tell the diference between good and evil or the difference between God and satan or the difference between God's way of living and the worlds way or mans way of living. Whichever way you want to define testing the Spirits, what it comes down to is choosing Gods way over satans way, just like Adam and Eve had the chance to test the Spirits back in the Garden. They chose satans way. The testing of Spirits have not changed because the rules of God never change. The only thing that changes is the teachings of man.

I agree.


The problem that I have about everyone just quoting 1John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." is that they forget what Paul wrote after that verse. Yes I agree this verse is true but we can't just read this verse and say that is it, we go out and test the Spirits and we can find out who is false and who is right. No, this is wrong. Why, because we don't know how to test the Spirits yet. In First John 4:2-3 Paul tells us how to test the Spirits so we can know by saying, By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

Well this is all good and well, but this explanation is not good enough either because everyone or at least almost everyone confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. There are very very few people in this world today who have at least heard the Gospel (not including those who have not heard the Gospel for those of you who want to get tenickel about it) but those who have at least heard the Gospel in some way shape or form confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the Flesh. The Bible tells me in Matthew 8:28-29, "And when he (Jesus) was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils (demons) coming out of the tombs, exceeding firce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" Here in these two verses we have Bible proof that even the devils confess and know that Jesus came in the flesh. So just because someone says that Jesus is God and that they believe that Jesus came in the flesh means nothing as far as testing the Spirits.

But then Paul goes on to give us his complete explanation on how to test the Spirits in his following verses. In First John 4:4-6 Paul writes us this,
You are of God, little children, and you have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore they speak of the world, and the world hears them.
We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. We can tell the difference between the Spirits simply be listening. What are we listening for? We are listening to who is believeing in what the world thinks God's Word is saying and what God says His Word is saying. Just like Paul said. We who are Born of the Spirit of God hears what God is saying in His Word about His Word which is all truth. He who is of the world hears what the world is saying about Gods Word and hears the world. Just like I said in the beginning of this reply. What is testing of the Spirits? telling the diference between good and evil or the difference between God and satan or the difference between God's way of living and the worlds way or mans way of living. Whichever way you want to define testing the Spirits, what it comes down to is choosing Gods way over satans way. We all know this because we all know that we are to live in this world but not be a part of this world. In other words we live here, but we don't do what they do. We are to be different.
I posted most of this already except for Matthew.


As far as the gifts go in first Corinthians 12, I believe that we have each and everyone of them that Pauls mentions. We do not have all of them at one time. But they are all given to each and every Born Again Believer of Our Lord Jesus. I have scripture to back all of that up, and will do so in another reply and not on this one. I think I have made this one long enough. But one thing I will say is that once again we need to look at to why Paul was giving these instructions in the first place to the Church of Corinth. Pauls teaching was not about gifts here, Pauls teaching was actually about Love. These people thought all they needed was the gifts they had from being baptised and accepting Our Lord Jesus. But Paul was telling them No, there is more because you could have all of those gifts, but without Love your Gifts mean nothing to God.
This is true except for each of us have all of them but not all at one time.
Paul tells the Corinthians-
1Co 12:28 And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

So, no, we do not all have all the gifts.

And yes, they are worthless without love in the first place. Like I said, the gifts are to edify (this includes instruction, exhortation, rebuking and encouragement) the body and reconcile the unbelieving to Christ.

amazzin
Nov 18th 2006, 12:43 AM
Hey Vickilynn,

I believe the primary problem amazzin has with the 'testing the spirit' Scripture, is the way people use it. How easy it is to take a Scripture and throw it around! Sadly, this is what is often done - without reference to the context or true meaning of a verse. That having been said, I agree that this Scripture is valid in tackling the issue of the manifestations of the Spirit.

So you say that manifestations should be mentioned in Scripture. That triggers a very important question: which manifestations are called as such by Scripture? 1 Corinthians 12 mentions gifts, but are they therefore also manifestations? And if so, is the litmus test not rather whether they are for the common good?

Another question I have is the following: why can we not accept manifestations not mentioned by Scriptures but not contradicting anything in Scripture either? Should the Bible be treated as a handbook for acceptable manifestations?

That is exactly my point. I have seen it used so many time out of context that it has diluted the reason why it is mentioned. The other point is that we often apply this "litmus test" and forget that we are humans with faults. We disqualify everything else the individual has done that has brought fruit because at that instant the "testing the spirit" test failed.

Vickilynn
Nov 18th 2006, 01:46 AM
Hey Vickilynn,

Shalom and hey back Pilgrim!


I believe the primary problem amazzin has with the 'testing the spirit' Scripture, is the way people use it.

We should never discard the Word of G-d simply because people abuse it. The Word is the truth, regardless of how people use or misue it.


That having been said, I agree that this Scripture is valid in tackling the issue of the manifestations of the Spirit.

As do I.


So you say that manifestations should be mentioned in Scripture. That triggers a very important question: which manifestations are called as such by Scripture? 1 Corinthians 12 mentions gifts, but are they therefore also manifestations? And if so, is the litmus test not rather whether they are for the common good?

This is what it says:

1 Corinthians 12
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

I believe the key word here is "common" good. In other words, not for ourselves, but for others. I don't see how "holy laughter" and such fit that bill.


Another question I have is the following: why can we not accept manifestations not mentioned by Scriptures but not contradicting anything in Scripture either? Should the Bible be treated as a handbook for acceptable manifestations?

I do believe the Bible is the handbook for acceptable manifestations, yes.

EarlyCall
Nov 18th 2006, 02:37 AM
You know there are too many different positions on this that it will just end up into another "Holy Laughter" mess. One denomination will say it is a demonic and another will say it is not. Then there are those who throw jabs like "test the spiriits" and will use that in the now and ignore the fruits the individual has produced in their life. I get a kick out of those who say "well, we are told to test the spirits". If they only know what this meant it would enlighten them at thier stupidity!

Blahhhhh,....not even going to attempt this one friend,...sorry


Why don't you enlighten all of us "stupids".

EarlyCall
Nov 18th 2006, 03:01 AM
Shalom,

One thing that I go by is whether the "manifestation" is glorifying Jesus, bring all eyes to HIM, or is it glorifying flesh and bringing attention to the person doing it.

Another is whether it is in Scripture as a "manifestation."

Also, quoting the Scriptures to "test the spirits" is not a jab, and anyone who has a problem with that, has a problem with the Scriptures! It is a biblical foundation that we not accept everything part and parcel just because someone says the Holy Spirit says so. We are to test and we are to be wary and on guard so as not to be deceived.

If someone says we should ignore Scripture, well, that says it right there. Their advice is not from G-d.


I completely agree and you've said it well. :)

possumliving
Nov 18th 2006, 07:35 PM
I have seen many times on these threads where someone will state that "we cannot know what is truly of God or not" as if we were not given the discernment to try things to see if they be of God or not. God's Word expressly speaks of these things.

1 Cor 2:10 Yet to us God has unveiled {and} revealed them by {and} through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring {and} examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny].
1 Cor 2:11 For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Cor 2:12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize {and} comprehend {and} appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.
1 Cor 2:13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining {and} interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept {or} welcome {or} admit into his heart the gifts {and} teachings {and} revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned {and} estimated {and} appreciated.
1 Cor 2:15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern {or} appraise {or} get an insight into him].
1 Cor 2:16 For who has known {or} understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide {and} instruct Him {and} give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) {and} do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart.

So, it is plainly stated that we are given to discern the things which are of God and those that are not.

1 Cor 3:18 Let no person deceive himself. If anyone among you supposes that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool [let him discard his worldly discernment and recognize himself as dull, stupid, and foolish, without true learning and scholarship], that he may become [really] wise.
1 Cor 3:19 For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their [own] craftiness;
1 Cor 3:20 And again, The Lord knows the thoughts {and} reasonings of the [humanly] wise {and} recognizes how futile they are.

The worlds wisdom will not work.

Now there is the Milk of the Word, which it seems that many 'teachers' don't even know themselves. The Milk of the Word is that which teaches us discernment, in fact, those that go on getting into the 'meat' of the Word without fully understanding the Milk will not only choke on it but from my observation will many times fall into error.

Heb 5:12 For even though by this time you ought to be teaching others, you actually need someone to teach you over again the very first principles of God's Word. You have come to need milk, not solid food.
Heb 5:13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is obviously inexperienced {and} unskilled in the doctrine of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action), for he is a mere infant [not able to talk yet]!
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for full-grown men, for those whose senses {and} mental faculties are trained by practice to discriminate {and} distinguish between what is morally good {and} noble and what is evil {and} contrary either to divine or human law.
Heb 6:1 THEREFORE LET us go on and get past the elementary stage in the teachings {and} doctrine of Christ (the Messiah), advancing steadily toward the completeness {and} perfection that belong to spiritual maturity. Let us not again be laying the foundation of repentance {and} abandonment of dead works (dead formalism) and of the faith to God,
Heb 6:2 With teachings about purifying, the laying on of hands, the resurrection from the dead, and eternal judgment {and} punishment. [These are all matters of which you should have been fully aware long, long ago.]

But for those of you who are unsure and truly confused about whether a teacher, preacher or supposed prophet is truly of God or not, the Bible shows plainly the behavior of those that are false, even if you cannot discern between true and false doctrine yet.

There is another Jesus and I have seen it preached time and again by the apostasy.

2 Cor 11:3 But [now] I am fearful, lest that even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds may be corrupted {and} seduced from wholehearted {and} sincere {and} pure devotion to Christ.
2 Cor 11:4 For [you seem readily to endure it] if a man comes and preaches another Jesus than the One we preached, [B]or if you receive a different spirit from the [Spirit] you [once] received or a different gospel from the one you [then] received {and} welcomed; you tolerate [all that] well enough!

Now Paul determined to support himself so that those that were false would be shown for what they were. When he came to minister, rather than becoming a burden, other believers supported his work.

Those that were false focused upon how much money they could get from those that followed them. They abused those that followed them.

But Paul, stated:

2 Cor 11:9 And when I was with you and ran short financially, I did not burden any [of you], for what I lacked was abundantly made up by the brethren who came from Macedonia. So I kept myself from being burdensome to you in any way, and will continue to keep [myself from being so].
2 Cor 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this my boast [of independence] shall not be debarred (silenced or checked) in the regions of Achaia (most of Greece).
2 Cor 11:11 And why? Because I do not love you [do not have a preference for you, wish you well, and regard your welfare]? God perceives {and} knows that I do!
2 Cor 11:12 But what I do, I will continue to do, [for I am determined to maintain this independence] in order to cut off the claim of those who would like [to find an occasion and incentive] to claim that in their boasted [mission] they work on the same terms that we do.
2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ (the Messiah).
2 Cor 11:14 And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light;
2 Cor 11:15 So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. their end will correspond with their deeds.


2 Cor 11:18 [For] since many boast of worldly things {and} according to the flesh, I will glory (boast) also.
2 Cor 11:19 For you readily {and} gladly bear with the foolish, since you are so smart {and} wise yourselves!
2 Cor 11:20 For you endure it if a man assumes control of your souls {and} makes slaves of you, or devours [your substance, spends your money] {and} preys upon you, or deceives {and} takes advantage of you, or is arrogant {and} puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

Mark 12:40 Who devour widows' houses and to cover it up make long prayers. They will receive the heavier [sentence of] condemnation.

Here, they were taking the money of widows and the hypocrites that they were, they acted all pious afterward.

2 Tim 3:1 BUT UNDERSTAND this, that in the last days will come (set in) perilous times of great stress {and} trouble [hard to deal with and hard to bear].
2 Tim 3:2 For people will be lovers of self {and} [utterly] self-centered, lovers of money {and} aroused by an inordinate [greedy] desire for wealth, proud {and} arrogant {and} contemptuous boasters. They will be abusive (blasphemous, scoffing), disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy {and} profane.
2 Tim 3:3 [They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate {and} loose in morals {and} conduct, uncontrolled {and} fierce, haters of good.
2 Tim 3:4 [They will be] treacherous [betrayers], rash, [and] inflated with self-conceit. [They will be] lovers of sensual pleasures {and} vain amusements more than {and} rather than lovers of God.
2 Tim 3:5 For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny {and} reject {and} are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].
2 Tim 3:6 For among them are those who worm their way into homes and captivate silly {and} weak-natured {and} spiritually dwarfed women, loaded down with [the burden of their] sins [and easily] swayed {and} led away by various evil desires {and} seductive impulses.
2 Tim 3:7 [These weak women will listen to anybody who will teach them]; they are forever inquiring {and} getting information, but are never able to arrive at a recognition {and} knowledge of the Truth.
2 Tim 3:8 Now just as Jannes and Jambres were hostile to {and} resisted Moses, so these men also are hostile to {and} oppose the Truth. They have depraved {and} distorted minds, and are reprobate {and} counterfeit {and} to be rejected as far as the faith is concerned.

Today we have those in ministry that are hostile to the Truth. If you catch such a one in error and confront them with the Truth in love, they will turn on you and devour you.

If you do not submit to them, and they are very demanding and dominating in the way they treat those beneath them (those in their churches), you will see the true spirit there. IT is not love. IT is not servanthood which we are required to be.

Matt 24:48 But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, My master is delayed {and} is going to be gone a long time,
Matt 24:49 [B]And begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken,
Matt 24:50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware,
Matt 24:51 And will punish him [cut him up by scourging] and put him with the pretenders (hypocrites); there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

If because of nothing else, you see this kind of behavior from a minister, don't listen to his teaching. There are cults today that love to abuse their members. Love bombing, manmade enforcements to keep you submitted to their authority and then they turn around and berate you and make fun of you if you don't completely swallow what they tell you.

That is how you discern, not based upon the 'manifestations' but upon the direction that the person's ministry takes.

Manifestations can be counterfeited. Don't look at the signs, look at the doctrines and the way they treat those that are in their churches. Cults have tongues, cults have laying on of hands, cults produce lying wonders.

BCF
Nov 19th 2006, 04:38 AM
I was once asked, what for gifts do you believe that God blessed you with when you got saved? I replied all of them, why do you ask. They responded by saying well how can you say that, the Bible does not teach that. I have been saved for over fifty years now and have never read that anyone except Jesus has all the gifts. So I asked them what is the greatest gift of them all? They responded, why the gift of Love from Our Lord. I then said, well then my friend, how can you say that you did not receive all the gifts.

You see my friends, when we got saved we received the greatest gift that God could give us. That was the gift of Love. If you or I say that we do not have all the gifts that Our Lord has for us, well then we did not receive the greatest gift of them all. Jesus told Phillip in John 14:13-15, "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If you Love me, keep my commandments." Well this is simple enough for us to understand. If I am reading what Jesus is telling Phillip here correctely, all we need to do in order for Jesus to do anything that we ask Him to do in His name, is Love Him, and keep His commandments. Okay, well Love Him we can do. :hmm: Can't we. :hmm: At least I think we can. :hmm: Yeah, Yeah, what am I thinking here, we are all loving Christians, sure we can. :hmm: Well we will come back to this, let's move on. The other thing that is required in order for Jesus to do anything that we ask in His name, is keep His commandments. Well I'm sure that we all have done that, since we have been saved, at least tried to, I mean none of us are perfect but that is where Gods Grace comes into play, right. Nobody can keep the Ten Commandments, and besides I don't believe that God expects us to be perfect either, that's why He sent Jesus, right. Well yeah, But I find a scripture in John 13:34-35 where Jesus says this, "A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, If ye have love one to another."

Now wait a minute here. something don't seem right. If the greatest gift that God could ever give us is His Love through Our Lord Jesus, and through that gift we would receive all the gifts as long as we ask for them. Why would we teach that we do not have all the gifts at our disposal? Well simply because we don't believe that Jesus will do what He says that He will do. And if we don't believe Him, then there is something wrong with Our Love walk. Now before everyone starts throwing all the darts at me for that last response, let me just remind you that I did not say that, Jesus did. I just wrote it to you.

Manifestation means to manifest something, and manifest means to reveal or show something plainly. So when we are talking about the manifestations of the Spirt, we are talking about the Holy Spirit (or God or Jesus) showing Himself through us plainly. We can find the proof of this from what Jesus tells Phillip in John 14:16-21, "And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter (meaning Holy Spirit) that he may abide (meaning live) with you forever. Even the Spirit of truth (meaning discernment of Spirits, what is truth and what is false) whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (meaning the Spirit of Truth) not, neither knoweth him (meaning Spirit of Truth): but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless (meaning orphens): I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day (meaning the day of pentecost or the day when someone receives the Holy Spirit) ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments (meaning Love for another) and keepeth them, he (meaning them) it is that loveth me: and he (meaning them) that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him (meaning them), and will manifest (meaning reveal) myself to him (meaning them)".

Now if we do not have all the gifts through the Love of Our Lord, well then everything that Jesus told Phillip is not correct. Here Jesus told Phillip that He would pray to the Father for the Holy Spirit to be sent down to us as our comforter. Well since it is the Holy Spirit which holds all of the gifts in the first place, how does anyone explain that we do not have all the gifts? There is no one who could perform any of the gifts that God has for us without the Holy Spirit. Unless of course you are the anti-christ, then I don't put nothing past you. But I am sure that this is not the case. The gifts of the Spirit contrary to belief and church doctrine is something that is received the moment that you receive Our Lord Jesus Christ into your Heart, and start Loving Him with all of your Heart, and believing His Word over the Worlds. This is just what Jesus told Phillip in the verses above. This junk about that everyone receives Jesus differently and gets saved differently and lives in the Spirit differently and feels the Spirit differently is nothing but a bunch of hog wash. God is Love. Jesus died on a Cross because He Loves us. Jesus got beaten half to death because He Loves us. God sent His Son to take this beaten so that we would not have to because He Loves us. God would rather have it that we all go to heaven and not any of us perish into hell because he Loves us. God should not need to send a truck load of angels singing the Hallelujah chorus to us in order for us to understand that when we get saved the first thing that we experance is HIS ALMIGHTY LOVE. That is the first thing that should change in our heart, thinking, the way we act, the way we talk, everything. Why? Because we have our Lord living inside of us and HE IS NOTHING BUT LOVE. We should be on fire for His love and wanting to show it to a lost world. But instead what do we do. We tell people that they don't have all the gifts. This makes no sense.

In Acts 2:14-21, Peter gives an explaination to what had happened at Pentecost to the eleven who were sitting there wondering why everyone was acting so strange. Here the writer Luke tells the account like this, "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the thirdhour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servents and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath: blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Now everyone knows what happened on the day of Pentecost, the people were filled with the Holy Spirit. And when the were filled with the Holy Spirit, they started to speak in tongues. Well if you ask me they must have been doing more then just speaking in tongues because the people who were there watching what was going on who were also fillied with the Holy Spirit at the same time because the scripture says "but Peter standing up with the eleven", and we all know that Jesus had twelve disciples, so I would say that the eleven were the disciples of Jesus minis Peter because Peter would have made twelve. We also know that the disciples of Jesus were indeed filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost also, yet they thought that these people were all drunk. So if the eleven thought that these people who were filled with the Holy Spirit were drunk, that tells me that there was more then just speaking of tongues going on that day. No where in scripture do you find that on the day of Pentecost any of the disciples spoke in tongues. All anyone has ever done was assumed they did. Now the scripture does say that it is one of the gifts and that it is evidence of the Holy Spirit, this is all true. But it is only for Gods purpose and Glory, and only God decides when we need to be speaking in tongues. Not us. I don't care what anyone else says, that's what the scripture says. Jesus said that He will reveal His Spirit to us. Not that we will make Him reveal His Spirit to us. Anyway, moving right along.

Everyone knows the story of Peter walking on water. How do you think Peter was able to do this. Because of the Love that Peter had in his heart for Jesus. Matthew tells the account like this in Chapter 14:25-29, "And in the forth watch of the nightJesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, it is a Spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer, it is I; be not afraid. And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me to come unto thee on the water. And he said Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus." Now Peter could not walk on that water because he had the gift of working miracles that day. No. The reason that Peter could walk on the water that day was because Peter believed that if that was really Jesus out there on the water, Peter could walk on the water also. Why, because Peter believed what Jesus taught him thats why. So when Jesus said come, Peter went and walked on the water. As soon as Peter took his thoughts and his eyes off of Jesus, his Faith left and so did his gift to walk on the water, and he started to sink. How do we know that is true? Because Jesus tells Peter just that in verse 31 after stretching His hand out and catching Peter, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? Now Peter did not need to be filled with the Spirit in order to walk on the water because he had the Spirit right there. All Peter had to do was believe what Jesus said, then just do it. Jesus took care of the rest. Now Peter had the gift of working miracles that day, and he also had the gift of wisdom, and the gift of knowledge, and the gift of Faith and the gift of discernment of Spirits all at the same time. But some of us don't think that this is possible.

Like I said, the gifts of the Spirit are for every single Born Again Believer, all we need to do is believe that we have them. If we can do that, well then God can use those gifts through us for His Glory. If we keep teaching that we cannot receive all the gifts through the Love of Jesus Christ, well then my friends we have just limited Our Lord with what he can do with us. Lets' face it, this world is messed up and it's not going to get any better anytime soon. If we keep telling people that they don't have all the gifts (not for us to use, but for God to use) we are never going to make a difference in this world.

If anyone of you look at those gifts that are listed in First Corinthians 12, you will come to find out that you use most of those gift each and everyday. Everyday we use the gift of wisdom. Everyday we use the gift of knowledge. Everyday we use the gift of Faith. Everyday we use the gift of prophecy (which I like to look at that gift as explaining Gods word to others). Everyday we use the gift of discerning of Spirits (because we are always trying to fugure out what is right and wrong because the enemy is always attacking us). Everyday we use the gift of healing (because we always run into someone who is hurting in some kind of way) Everyday you are speaking in tongues if you are sharing the Gospel with someone who does not know Christ, because to them you are speaking another language. And everyday you are being a interpreter of the scripture which is a different language to those who are among the lost. So you see my friends, each and everyday because of the Love that manifest out of you for Our Lord, Jesus through the Holy Spirit is able to use each and everyone of these gifts in you and I each and everyday. So why would you say that you don't have these gifts, if you have the greatest give of them all living inside of you. Which is Our Lords Gift Of Love

Berean
Nov 19th 2006, 08:41 AM
BCF,

I guess we don't all (believers) have all the gifts because it doesn't say specifically we do or don't. And the only scripture that would indicate we don't is this-

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

Now a straight forward reading suggests that we don't. But we ARE to desire the greater of these gifts. I would imagine that we CAN have more than one. But it is still at the Holy Spirits desire and discretion as to who gets what, when, how and why.

I don't like your statement about "Well simply because we don't believe that Jesus will do what He says that He will do. And if we don't believe Him, then there is something wrong with Our Love walk. Now before everyone starts throwing all the darts at me for that last response, let me just remind you that I did not say that, Jesus did. I just wrote it to you."

What exactly did Jesus say? Love is not necessarily inclusive of the gifts. It is by itself the greatest of the gifts. I do not have to have all the others at all. But only love would suffice. And love is about attitude, behaviour, action, words. Of course I am referring to 1cor. 13's description of what love is. And don't forget 1 Cor. 12's last sentence-
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.
And Jesus said this-
"Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Of course He said more about love but I think this gets the point across.
And the fruits are it's manifestations. If the Spirit chooses to do more through you? Hallelujah!!!! And if He wants to manifest all the gifts in one person He can certainly do that as well. He is not limited and I will not limit Him and I am not limiting Him. If I am limiting Him it is because of disobedience and sin, not because of belief. So, then, I am saying, it is not my belief that limits Him but my disobedience and sin.

Actually your post was long, confusing and hard to follow. So, yes, I did zero in on certain things you said.

And I ABSOLUTELY believe Jesus will do what He said He will do.

Peace, Berean

Vickilynn
Nov 19th 2006, 04:53 PM
BCF,

I guess we don't all (believers) have all the gifts because it doesn't say specifically we do or don't. And the only scripture that would indicate we don't is this-

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

Now a straight forward reading suggests that we don't. But we ARE to desire the greater of these gifts. I would imagine that we CAN have more than one. But it is still at the Holy Spirits desire and discretion as to who gets what, when, how and why.

I don't like your statement about "Well simply because we don't believe that Jesus will do what He says that He will do. And if we don't believe Him, then there is something wrong with Our Love walk. Now before everyone starts throwing all the darts at me for that last response, let me just remind you that I did not say that, Jesus did. I just wrote it to you."

What exactly did Jesus say? Love is not necessarily inclusive of the gifts. It is by itself the greatest of the gifts. I do not have to have all the others at all. But only love would suffice. And love is about attitude, behaviour, action, words. Of course I am referring to 1cor. 13's description of what love is. And don't forget 1 Cor. 12's last sentence-
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.
And Jesus said this-
"Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Of course He said more about love but I think this gets the point across.
And the fruits are it's manifestations. If the Spirit chooses to do more through you? Hallelujah!!!! And if He wants to manifest all the gifts in one person He can certainly do that as well. He is not limited and I will not limit Him and I am not limiting Him. If I am limiting Him it is because of disobedience and sin, not because of belief. So, then, I am saying, it is not my belief that limits Him but my disobedience and sin.

Actually your post was long, confusing and hard to follow. So, yes, I did zero in on certain things you said.

And I ABSOLUTELY believe Jesus will do what He said He will do.

Peace, Berean


Shalom Berean,
Excellent post!!

BCF
Nov 19th 2006, 07:07 PM
Yes you are correct, my post was very long. Confusing I can't say, but I must take you word for it and apoligize for that. Now hard to follow I can agree with due to the length of it, but this is what happens when believers are not using there gifts correctly. Believer's when explaining something need to make real long and drawn out explanations in order to dot all the I'ssss and cross all T'ssssss. But you have been able to respond with questions that maybe you don't believe are questions but they are. I trust the Spirit in me will now use these questions to show you what you are missing in scripture. This will be done in steps so that we don't have long and drawn out post.

Most seem to hold this position as you quoted here mostly for the same reason.

I guess we don't all (believers) have all the gifts because it doesn't say specifically we do or don't. And the only scripture that would indicate we don't is this-

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

You know my friends, what you wrote as to why most believers think this way reminds me of another thing that happened in scripture, which was the fall of man. Back in the Garden if we remember in Genesis 3:3-4, we have the temptation of man. Here in Genesis 3 we have the account of satan talking to Eve and trying to get her to eat from the tree, and we have Eve telling satan that she should not because God said so. Well picking it up here in Genesis 3:3, we have the writer Moses telling us this, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." I believe that we can all agree that in this verse that God was not talking about a physical death from there physical bodies. I beleive that we all know that God was talking about them dieing Spiritually from Him. In saying that, let's move on to what Moses writes in Genesis 3:4, "And the serpent (satan) said unto the women (Eve) Ye shall not surely die:" Here in verse four satan took what God said would happen to Adam and Eve from a Spiritual stand point, and switched it as to meaning physical. We know that because of what Moses writes in the following verse of Genesis 3:5, "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." With satan saying that there eyes would be opened and not their hearts, he took what God was saying from spiritual to physical. Remember my friends Our Lord is concerned about Our Spiritual Lives, not Our Physical Lives.

Now what does this have to do with what we are talking about. If you ask me it is the same thing, just questions. All God told Adam and Eve was that if they ate from the tree they would die. God did not specifically say to Adam and Eve how they would die, just that they would die. I guess God thought that they would Love Him enough to know that He meant from Him, which is Spiritual, I don't know. Well the same thing goes with this. You say that "I guess we don't all (believers) have all the gifts because it doesn't say specifically we do or don't. And the only scripture that would indicate we don't is this-

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way." is playing right into the enemies hand, because he does not want you to know that you have what is available for every single believer in Our Lord Jesus, through His Love for us, and Our Love for Him.

As far as these verses go that you keep quoting. My friend like I told you before, Paul was talking to a church who was using there gifts for the wrong purpose. All he was doing was asking them a bunch of question. They were all going into churchs and during nothing but making a mess of things. If everybody in your church used the same gift of teaching at the same time, what would you accomplish for God? Nothing. If everyone in your church went in and used the gift of speaking in tongues at the same time, what would you accomplish for God? Nothing. If everyone went in to your church and used there gift of healing all at the same time what would you be accomplishing for God? Nothing. But if you all went into your church at the same time and used the gift of Love at the same time, you can all accomplish everything that God has asked you to accomplish and more, all at the same time. But that does not take away the fact of whether or not you have all the Gifts of the Spirit. Because with the greatest Gift of them all, you do have all the Gifts already working for you.

Vickilynn
Nov 19th 2006, 08:32 PM
Shalom BCF,

The Scriptures plainly say that not everyone has EVERY gift, but all gifts are given by the Holy Spirit. We are not all the same parts of the Body, but different and together with our different gifts, we make up the Body.

Let's look at the entire chapter in context, it makes it very, very clear that individual gifts are given to different ones in the Body and we all do not have the SAME gifts.


1 Corithinans 12

1Now concerning[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=47#fen-ESV-28616a)] spiritual gifts, brothers,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=47#fen-ESV-28616c)] I do not want you to be uninformed. 2You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

4 [B]Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healingby the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
One Body with Many Members

12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=47#fen-ESV-28628d)] or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts,[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=47#fen-ESV-28635e)] yet one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

27Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

And I will show you a still more excellent way.

BCF
Nov 19th 2006, 09:23 PM
Hi Vickilynn

Okay, lets take verse 1st Corinthians 12:8 here for example. 1st Corinthians 12:8 says, (and I will use your translation here) "To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit." This morning I am assuming you want to Church and heard a sermon from you Pastor. In looking at this verse from the stand point of what you are claiming, not everyone in your church was able to understand the message that your Pastor gave this morning because not everyone in your church has the gift of wisdom. The only ones who understood your Pastors message this morning where those (whoever they are) who have the gift of wisdom, and not everyone in your church is able to have this according to your position.

But now on the other hand those with the gift of knowledge according to your interpertation here, could explain what was being said by your Pastor, because they have knowledge to do so. But the only problem is those with the wisdom would not understand because they have no knowledge to figure out what they are saying. Because only those with the Gift of knowledge can understand knowledge, they can't understand wisdom. So those who have the gift of wisdom and not knowledge could not be blessed by your Pastors sermon because your Pastor cannot please both, he can only please one. So one group went home without anything today.

Now I ask you, how confusing is that. This makes no sense at all. My friend God has us all as believers in the middle of a war with the enemy, and I am sure that he will not let us go into battle being only half prepared.

Like I said before, Paul wrote this the way he did because of the miss use of the Gifts that was being done. He needed to do a teaching which continued into Chapter 13. Paul needed to start somewhere and somehow. If God gives us something He gives us all of it, not just some of it. We exercise these gifts without even knowing that we do it half the time, that how much Our Lord Loves Us. Our Lord is using us in ways that we can't even begin to think of or even believe, and He is doing it through these wonderful Gifts that Paul talks about here in 1st Corinthians 12. And my friend, God is doing it through every single believer there is. The sad thing is we let the enemy destroy the work that God did through us with these Gifts, as fast as God did the work through us with these Gifts. And we do it by listening to man made doctrines rather then what Jesus said

Vickilynn
Nov 19th 2006, 09:30 PM
Hi Vickilynn

Okay, lets take verse 1st Corinthians 12:8 here for example. 1st Corinthians 12:8 says, (and I will use your translation here) "To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit." This morning I am assuming you want to Church and heard a sermon from you Pastor. In looking at this verse from the stand point of what you are claiming, not everyone in your church was able to understand the message that your Pastor gave this morning because not everyone in your church has the gift of wisdom. The only ones who understood your Pastors message this morning where those (whoever they are) who have the gift of wisdom, and not everyone in your church is able to have this according to your position.

Shalom BCF,
Actually, I go to church on Saturday nights.
And no, that's not what the Scripture says and not what I'm saying.

We all have intellect that is physical. And we are regenerated by the Spirit to have spiritual ears to hear the Holy Spirit, but THIS is the "gift of wisdom." That is a separate gift and it is on TOP of physical wisdom and spiritual ears.


Now I ask you, how confusing is that. This makes no sense at all.

It's very confusing and it makes no sense because it's NOT what the Scripture says, it is something you are coming up with that differs from the Scriptures.


The sad thing is we let the enemy destroy the work that God did through us with these Gifts, as fast as God did the work through us with these Gifts. And we do it by listening to man made doctrines rather then what Jesus said

BCF,
I am quoting you Scripture after Scripture that says you are misinterpreting the gifts.

The Holy Spirit gives gifts to some in one area and to others He gives another gift. It is plain and literal from the Word. You cannot disregard it and say something else.

That is man-doctrine. I prefer to follow the Scriptures and what they say literally.

The enemy is not stronger than G-d, please remember that.

BCF
Nov 19th 2006, 09:57 PM
Vickilynn,

Let me ask you something here,

Do you think that I am meaning that in a physical sense we all have these gifts? Because if you do, you my friend are sadly mistaken. I do not believe that anyone of us can have these gifts in the physical, only in the Spiritual. I thought that I made myself clear on that, but maybe I did not.
As far as to how I believe the scripture. My friend I believe the scripture more then I believe our local newspaper that I read. At least my Bible won't lie to me. My news paper will. If you don't believe me you are more then welcome to ask my wife. She will tell you, I always say if the Bible said it,God said it and there is no changing it, end of story.

Why do you think I don't go to a church, but that's another thread. We will stick to this one.

Vickilynn
Nov 19th 2006, 10:22 PM
Vickilynn,

Let me ask you something here,

Do you think that I am meaning that in a physical sense we all have these gifts?

Shalom BCF,

No, of course not, the Bible calls these SPIRITUAL gifts.

Let me ask you something...
why do you ask me something and then post as if you already know the answer? :lol:


Why do you think I don't go to a church, but that's another thread. We will stick to this one.

Ummm, where did you get such an idea? Please show me where I ever said anything like that.

Berean
Nov 19th 2006, 11:08 PM
But you have been able to respond with questions that maybe you don't believe are questions but they are. I trust the Spirit in me will now use these questions to show you what you are missing in scripture. This will be done in steps so that we don't have long and drawn out post.
My questions are ended with a question mark. Be they rhetorical or not. I did not respond with questions that maybe I don't believe are questions but they are. What I said is what I said (or rather wrote).


I trust the Spirit in me will now use these questions to show you what you are missing in scripture.
Uh huh.


Now what does this have to do with what we are talking about. If you ask me it is the same thing, just questions. All God told Adam and Eve was that if they ate from the tree they would die. God did not specifically say to Adam and Eve how they would die, just that they would die. I guess God thought that they would Love Him enough to know that He meant from Him, which is Spiritual, I don't know. Well the same thing goes with this.
Really. How is it the same? God says through His apostle Paul that (and thank you Vickylynn for bringing up the other scripture)-
Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 You know that being led away, you nations were led to dumb idols.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.

1Co 12:28 And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? (No) Are all prophets? (No) Are all teachers? (No) Are all workers of power? (No)
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? (No) Do all speak languages? (No) Do all interpret? (No)
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

The subject is clear. It is concerning spiritual gifts. Not physical gifts or talents or abilities. Spiritual gifts only that go beyond our physical gifts, talents, and abilities.

And then they are enumerated. What exactly did I miss? That because it doesn't say one way or the other we all have all the gifts all the time?

It is most definitely implied.

You know what? I stand corrected. It most definitely is indicated we do not all have all the gifts all the time. What is written is what is written. By God Almighty Himself.

I will agree to disagree with you. But that Christ is preached and sinners are saved is above all. I care not one whit if I ever prophecy or speak in a language I don't know. But now whether I am loving that is most important. Because they will know we are Christians by our love.


Peace, Berean

BCF
Nov 19th 2006, 11:14 PM
Hi Vickilynn,
Quote:
Why do you think I don't go to a church, but that's another thread. We will stick to this one.

Ummm, where did you get such an idea? Please show me where I ever said anything like that.

You didn't, my meds for my headaches must be working in reverse and I slipped a gear:rofl: :rofl: I'm sorry. After I read that I even questioned that myself and had no answer, so go figure. Anyway.

Your question as to why did I post something as if I already know the answer came from what you said to me in your post. What you said was,

"We all have intellect that is physical. And we are regenerated by the Spirit to have spiritual ears to hear the Holy Spirit, but THIS is the "gift of wisdom." That is a separate gift and it is on TOP of physical wisdom and spiritual ears."

After reading that I was not sure if you thought that I was thinking that we had all of these gifts in our physical intellect which I do not believe. I do know and believe that being Born Again means being Born From Above which could only be Spiritual. It is a Spiritual happening that occurs and is shown through our physical being. All guided and directed by the Holy Spirit of course. Which is the why I am saying God makes Himself known through our physical being with these gifts. But God can't do this if we don't think that we have them all. If we say to our minds that we cannot heal someone, we will believe it. If we say that we don't have all the gifts, we will believe that also. Well if we say that we do not believe that we have all the gifts for God to use on us, well then how will God be able to do so? We with our carnal minds will not let him, and God's Sprit will not be in strife with flesh. God will not force man to do anything. God wants us to choose. It was that way in the Garden with Adam and Eve, and it is that way now. God does not change His ways of doing things just because man gets better ways to reword His word.

I gave you the example of Eve in the garden which you have not mentioned for some reason in your quotes or disagreements. This is no different then what we are talking about here. The only difference is, in the garden the enemy was dealing with an apple. With this he is dealing with what could hurt him in the last days. Gods Army.

BCF
Nov 19th 2006, 11:22 PM
My questions are ended with a question mark. Be they rhetorical or not. I did not respond with questions that maybe I don't believe are questions but they are. What I said is what I said (or rather wrote).


Uh huh.


Really. How is it the same? God says through His apostle Paul that (and thank you Vickylynn for bringing up the other scripture)-
Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 You know that being led away, you nations were led to dumb idols.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.

1Co 12:28 And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? (No) Are all prophets? (No) Are all teachers? (No) Are all workers of power? (No)
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? (No) Do all speak languages? (No) Do all interpret? (No)
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

The subject is clear. It is concerning spiritual gifts. Not physical gifts or talents or abilities. Spiritual gifts only that go beyond our physical gifts, talents, and abilities.

And then they are enumerated. What exactly did I miss? That because it doesn't say one way or the other we all have all the gifts all the time?

It is most definitely implied.

You know what? I stand corrected. It most definitely is indicated we do not all have all the gifts all the time. What is written is what is written. By God Almighty Himself.

I will agree to disagree with you. But that Christ is preached and sinners are saved is above all. I care not one whit if I ever prophecy or speak in a language I don't know. But now whether I am loving that is most important. Because they will know we are Christians by our love.


Peace, Berean


Sorry to have upset you my friend, I really did not mean to in any way.

I would like to ask you though where and when did I ever say to you that these gifts in 1st Corinthians 12 were concerning physical gifts or talents or abilities? I have never said such a thing. I have always said that these gifts were from a Spiritual sense.

Vickilynn
Nov 19th 2006, 11:35 PM
You didn't, my meds for my headaches must be working in reverse and I slipped a gear:rofl: :rofl: I'm sorry. After I read that I even questioned that myself and had no answer, so go figure. Anyway.

Shalom BCF!

LOL! No worries! I have chemo-brain, so we're about even! :lol:


After reading that I was not sure if you thought that I was thinking that we had all of these gifts in our physical intellect which I do not believe.

No, I knew we were talking about Spiritual gifts, but you were referring to those things not gifted, as if understanding my pastor's sermon was the gifts of wisdom. It is not. The gift of wisdom is on TOP of and supercedes any physical talent or intelligence. You were using physical manifestations instead of Spiritual ones.



But God can't do this if we don't think that we have them all.
Are you saying WE control G-d?
Brother, the Scriptures say that these gifts are from the Holy Spirit and to whom HE wills. It is not up to us, it is up to Him.

1Corinthians 12:11 But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.

I reject the notion that G-d "cannot" do anything. G-d is G-d and He is all-powerful. To even suggest that He is hindered by what we think is totally against Scripture, which is our authority.


If we say to our minds that we cannot heal someone, we will believe it.
We cannot. Only G-d can. And if He gives us the gift of healing, the healing comes from HIM, not us. Only through us, can someone be healed, not by us. Big difference. We can do nothing in ourselves.



If we say that we don't have all the gifts, we will believe that also.
BCF, I'm sorry, this sounds like "positive thinking", mind over matter" etc.

I'm showing you the Scriptures say clearly that we do not EACH have ALL the gifts. It has nothing to do with believing or telling my mind something. It is in the written Word of G-d and that is the truth, whether I believe it or not (but I do believe it, BTW).

On the Adam and Eve, well, I'll have to go back and read what you wrote - I forgot! :lol:

Berean
Nov 19th 2006, 11:46 PM
BCF,

Because you used scripture from Genesis to try and describe an implication that because it didn't say specifically whether they died spiritually or physically and we can use this same implication to say that all have all the gifts all the time.

Now, I'm not sure why I seperated the two except perhaps to make it clear to others less understanding of these scriptures aware that they are spiritual.

And you haven't upset me at all. I am simply saying that we will perhaps have to agree to disagree is all. Since it doesn't seem that we will (at least in this thread) be able to completely agree on all points of this subject. And that what is written is written by God Almighty Himself. But that I'm sure we could agree on this-

But that Christ is preached and sinners are saved is above all. I care not one whit if I ever prophecy or speak in a language I don't know. But now whether I am loving that is most important. Because they will know we are Christians by our love.

In other words-I think, given what you have posted, that this would be in line when we can't agree on non-essentials. And our fellowship will remain unbroken regardless.

Not upset. ;)

And I was trying to be respectful of your time in Christ. It is much longer than mine. Even though we may disagree here does not mean I can't learn other things from you. I am not a young woman (although I was young when I came to Christ, in my late twenties) but God through scripture has told us to be respectful of our elders. Doesn't say we can't disagree with you but that we MUST be respectful. I hope I was not disrespectful. Plain spoken, yes. Disrespectful, no. If I was I apologize. Here, maybe this says it better what I mean-

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you.
Phi 3:16 Yet, as to what we have already attained, let us walk in the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

If we think differently God will reveal it to one of us. In the meantime let us walk or live up to what we have already attained in Christ so that our fellowship in Him remain unbroken.

Peace, Berean

CML
Nov 20th 2006, 12:52 AM
But for those of you who are unsure and truly confused about whether a teacher, preacher or supposed prophet is truly of God or not, the Bible shows plainly the behavior of those that are false, even if you cannot discern between true and false doctrine yet.




2 Cor 11:3 But [now] I am fearful, lest that even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds may be corrupted {and} seduced from wholehearted {and} sincere {and} pure devotion to Christ.
2 Cor 11:4 For [you seem readily to endure it] if a man comes and preaches another Jesus than the One we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the [Spirit] you [once] received or a different gospel from the one you [then] received {and} welcomed; you tolerate [all that] well enough!

Now Paul determined to support himself so that those that were false would be shown for what they were. When he came to minister, rather than becoming a burden, other believers supported his work.

Those that were false focused upon how much money they could get from those that followed them. They abused those that followed them.

But Paul, stated:

2 Cor 11:9 And when I was with you and ran short financially, I did not burden any [of you], for what I lacked was abundantly made up by the brethren who came from Macedonia. So I kept myself from being burdensome to you in any way, and will continue to keep [myself from being so].
2 Cor 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this my boast [of independence] shall not be debarred (silenced or checked) in the regions of Achaia (most of Greece).
2 Cor 11:11 And why? Because I do not love you [do not have a preference for you, wish you well, and regard your welfare]? God perceives {and} knows that I do!
2 Cor 11:12 But what I do, I will continue to do, [for I am determined to maintain this independence] in order to cut off the claim of those who would like [to find an occasion and incentive] to claim that in their boasted [mission] they work on the same terms that we do.
2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ (the Messiah).
2 Cor 11:14 And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light;
2 Cor 11:15 So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. their end will correspond with their deeds.


2 Cor 11:18 [For] since many boast of worldly things {and} according to the flesh, I will glory (boast) also.
2 Cor 11:19 For you readily {and} gladly bear with the foolish, since you are so smart {and} wise yourselves!
2 Cor 11:20 For you endure it if a man assumes control of your souls {and} makes slaves of you, or devours [your substance, spends your money] {and} preys upon you, or deceives {and} takes advantage of you, or is arrogant {and} puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

Mark 12:40 Who devour widows' houses and to cover it up make long prayers. They will receive the heavier [sentence of] condemnation.

Here, they were taking the money of widows and the hypocrites that they were, they acted all pious afterward.

2 Tim 3:1 BUT UNDERSTAND this, that in the last days will come (set in) perilous times of great stress {and} trouble [hard to deal with and hard to bear].
2 Tim 3:2 For people will be lovers of self {and} [U]self-centered, lovers of money {and} aroused by an inordinate [greedy] desire for wealth, proud {and} arrogant {and} contemptuous boasters. They will be abusive (blasphemous, scoffing), disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy {and} profane.
2 Tim 3:3 [They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate {and} loose in morals {and} conduct, uncontrolled {and} fierce, haters of good.
2 Tim 3:4 [They will be] treacherous [betrayers], rash, [and] inflated with self-conceit. [They will be] lovers of sensual pleasures {and} vain amusements more than {and} rather than lovers of God.
2 Tim 3:5 For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny {and} reject {and} are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].
2 Tim 3:6 For among them are those who worm their way into homes and captivate silly {and} weak-natured {and} spiritually dwarfed women, loaded down with [the burden of their] sins [and easily] swayed {and} led away by various evil desires {and} seductive impulses.
2 Tim 3:7 [These weak women will listen to anybody who will teach them]; they are forever inquiring {and} getting information, but are never able to arrive at a recognition {and} knowledge of the Truth.
2 Tim 3:8 Now just as Jannes and Jambres were hostile to {and} resisted Moses, so these men also are hostile to {and} oppose the Truth. They have depraved {and} distorted minds, and are reprobate {and} counterfeit {and} to be rejected as far as the faith is concerned.

Today we have those in ministry that are hostile to the Truth. If you catch such a one in error and confront them with the Truth in love, they will turn on you and devour you.

If you do not submit to them, and they are very demanding and dominating in the way they treat those beneath them (those in their churches), you will see the true spirit there. IT is not love. IT is not servanthood which we are required to be.

Matt 24:48 But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, My master is delayed {and} is going to be gone a long time,
Matt 24:49 [B]And begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken,
Matt 24:50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware,
Matt 24:51 And will punish him [cut him up by scourging] and put him with the pretenders (hypocrites); there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

If because of nothing else, you see this kind of behavior from a minister, don't listen to his teaching. There are cults today that love to abuse their members. Love bombing, manmade enforcements to keep you submitted to their authority and then they turn around and berate you and make fun of you if you don't completely swallow what they tell you.

That is how you discern, not based upon the 'manifestations' but upon the direction that the person's ministry takes.

Manifestations can be counterfeited. Don't look at the signs, look at the doctrines and the way they treat those that are in their churches. Cults have tongues, cults have laying on of hands, cults produce lying wonders.


Great post, PossumLiving, God has used it to bless my heart, answering many recent prayers. :hug:

We see so much of this today, and the scriptures speak directly to it. Its sad to me that so many people don't seem to pay much attention to what God has said in His word.

I'd recommend people tie in the book of Jude along with the other scriptures you quoted when they study...(I was just reading it this afternoon).

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 01:54 AM
BCF,

Because you used scripture from Genesis to try and describe an implication that because it didn't say specifically whether they died spiritually or physically and we can use this same implication to say that all have all the gifts all the time.

Now, I'm not sure why I seperated the two except perhaps to make it clear to others less understanding of these scriptures aware that they are spiritual.

And you haven't upset me at all. I am simply saying that we will perhaps have to agree to disagree is all. Since it doesn't seem that we will (at least in this thread) be able to completely agree on all points of this subject. And that what is written is written by God Almighty Himself. But that I'm sure we could agree on this-

But that Christ is preached and sinners are saved is above all. I care not one whit if I ever prophecy or speak in a language I don't know. But now whether I am loving that is most important. Because they will know we are Christians by our love.

In other words-I think, given what you have posted, that this would be in line when we can't agree on non-essentials. And our fellowship will remain unbroken regardless.

Not upset. ;)

And I was trying to be respectful of your time in Christ. It is much longer than mine. Even though we may disagree here does not mean I can't learn other things from you. I am not a young woman (although I was young when I came to Christ, in my late twenties) but God through scripture has told us to be respectful of our elders. Doesn't say we can't disagree with you but that we MUST be respectful. I hope I was not disrespectful. Plain spoken, yes. Disrespectful, no. If I was I apologize. Here, maybe this says it better what I mean-

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you.
Phi 3:16 Yet, as to what we have already attained, let us walk in the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

If we think differently God will reveal it to one of us. In the meantime let us walk or live up to what we have already attained in Christ so that our fellowship in Him remain unbroken.

Peace, Berean

I'm glad to see that I have not upset you, I thought I had. I really do not intend to do so with anyone.

As far as disrespecting me goes, you have no need to worry about that. I do not do what I do for Our Lord for respect for me, I do what I do for Our Lord out of respect and Love for Him. Disagreements are fine with me. I believe that there will be disagreements about Our Lords Word from Now until Our Lord makes His return simply because there is not one of us who can say they are correct with the scripture. Only God can, because God wrote it as far as I am concerned.

My desire is to learn as much about the scripture as I can, and in return also share what I do know with as many as I can. We all veiw scripture differently and I believe that if God would have it His way, He would rather have it that we all veiw it the same. This may or may not ever happen because with God who knows. But at least by sharing all the different views if we can somehow get just one person who would just happen to look at one of these threads who needs to be touched by the Holy Spirit, God can do His work with them, and God can be Glorified.:)

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 02:43 AM
Hi Vickilynn

Are you saying WE control G-d?
Brother, the Scriptures say that these gifts are from the Holy Spirit and to whom HE wills. It is not up to us, it is up to Him.

No, I am not saying that we control God. Nobody controls God but God.
Yes I agree, these gifts as well as all gifts are from the Holy Spirit. And who is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is God. I think that we can agree with that.
Yes I agree, it is not up to us, it is up to God.

If we say to our minds that we cannot heal someone, we will believe it.

We cannot. Only G-d can. And if He gives us the gift of healing, the healing comes from HIM, not us. Only through us, can someone be healed, not by us. Big difference. We can do nothing in ourselves.

You are right in a sense here. The gift of healing does only come from God
as all gifts do, and yes the healing comes from God not us, just as wisdom comes from God and not us, and knowledge comes from God not us. But in order for God to use the gift of healing through us, or wisdom or knowledge or any other gift for that matter, we need to believe that we have it first. If we don't believe that we have it, it can't be done. We believe it throught the gift of Faith. For example, I'm sure you know the story of the centurion who came to Jesus asking for Jesus to heal his servent who was sick. You can find it in Matthew 8:5-13. I will not write everything down word for word that went on during this time so my post is not so long. But in this account the centurion comes up to Jesus and asks him to heal his servent. Jesus tells him that he would come to his house and do so. The centurion tells Jesus No, don't come to my house for I am not worthy to have you come to my house. But just speak the word only and my servent will be healed. Jesus is response tells the people that were following Him at the time that he has not found such great faith no not one in all Israel. Jesus then goes on to tell them that many shall come from the east and the west, and sit down in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then Jesus turns to the centurion and says Go your way: and as you have believed so be it done unto you.

It is for scripture like this that I say what I say to you about the gifts my friend. If we do not believe that we have all of these gifts, like the centurion believed that he did because Jesus said so. How is the Holy Spirit who is God going to be able to use somone who does not believe God can use them in the way he wants to.


Quote:
If we say that we don't have all the gifts, we will believe that also.

BCF, I'm sorry, this sounds like "positive thinking", mind over matter" etc.

Yes you are right, this is positive thinking or mind over matter, however you would like to say it. But this is just what we need to do if we are going to present or bodies as living sacrfice and be transformed by renewing our minds into the perfect will of God.

Vickilynn
Nov 20th 2006, 03:24 AM
Shalom BCF!



No, I am not saying that we control God. Nobody controls God but God.

Yes I agree, these gifts as well as all gifts are from the Holy Spirit. And who is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is God. I think that we can agree with that. Yes I agree, it is not up to us, it is up to God.
Yes, we agree on this.



You are right in a sense here. The gift of healing does only come from God
as all gifts do, and yes the healing comes from God not us, just as wisdom comes from God and not us, and knowledge comes from God not us. But in order for God to use the gift of healing through us, or wisdom or knowledge or any other gift for that matter, we need to believe that we have it first. If we don't believe that we have it, it can't be done.
No, I don't agree here. That again, puts the control on US, not G-d.
I believe we should seek G-d and ask HIM what gifts we have and walk in it. We do not all have ALL the gifts, that is plain according to the Scriptures. It says that the Holy Spirit gives them as He desires, not as I desire, and not as I "believe."

I can "believe" that I have the gift of healing all day long, but if it is not the gift given to me by the Holy Spirit, I can't make it MY gift by believing. You see what I'm saying here? You are saying WE have the control, and not G-d and I disagree. That is not what the Scriptures say.


We believe it throught the gift of Faith.
The GIFT of faith is additional. Not everyone has the gift of faith, though everyone has some faith.


Yes you are right, this is positive thinking or mind over matter, however you would like to say it. But this is just what we need to do if we are going to present or bodies as living sacrfice and be transformed by renewing our minds into the perfect will of God.
No BCF, positive thinking and mind over matter are contrary to the Word of G-d and contrary to the faith and trust we have in HIM. I do not accept this doctrine as something G-d says in His Word.

Again, for the last time (since I believe we have exhausted this topic), the Scriptures are very clear what G-d says about the gifts - that not everyone will get ALL of them, we will get what the Holy Spirit chooses to give us.

To say anything other, is to add to the Scripture something that isn't from G-d, it's man-made.

So, with that, I bid you peace.

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 03:43 AM
Okay my friend, I'll bid you peace on this issue also.

But I will leave you with something that I always think about and wonder whenever I am in disagreement with someone over something. One day the one true Judge will ask one of us why we did what we did, and one of us will need to answer for it.

Please do not take this the wrong way because it very well could be me who needs to answer for what I believe. But we both can't be right. God's word is Gods word and that is just the way it is. There is nothing that we can do about it.

Peace be with you my friend and God Bless.

Seeker of truth
Nov 20th 2006, 01:55 PM
Again, for the last time (since I believe we have exhausted this topic), the Scriptures are very clear what G-d says about the gifts - that not everyone will get ALL of them, we will get what the Holy Spirit chooses to give us.

This is correct. Not everyone will be given the gift of tongues. Not everyone will be given the gift of interpretation. Not everyone will be given the gift of healing, etc. We will be given only the gifts the Holy Spirit chooses to give us.

Some people may have many gifts, some may have few. It doesn't mean we won't be saved. Our Salvation doesn't depend on which gifts we are given.

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 03:12 PM
Seeker of truth and All my friends,

If anyone can backup with scripture (other then 1st Corinthians 12:1-30) to support what you are believing like I have with you all in my posts to support what I believe (see post #17,20,33) when we except Jesus as Lord. I am going to need to continue to stay with the scripture and what it truely teaches.

Now, I'm not saying that I am believeing corectly, as a matter of fact, I am humbling myself down and asking for your help. Because you see my friends I have such a passion for my Lords children, and take my Lords words and the duties that My Lord has instructed all of us who claim to Love Him so seriously and personal. That if I am wrong, and seeing something wrong, I am leading people astry and straight to the pit of hell with my teaching. And this my friends is not right with Our Lord. I have become at that time a false teacher according to Our Lords Word, and this is not exceptable to my Spirit. So please I beg of you, teach me with something more then one chapter of verses so I can learn what I don't know. If I am not teaching correctly according to scripture and Our Lord, Not man and this World. Because I could care less about what man thinks.

Nine years ago, while I was lieing in a hospitel bed, six hous after having major brain sergery listening to a doctor tell me that I would never be able to walk again or drive a car again or play catch with my son again or even get to go to the bathroom by myself ever again. I look at that doctor and told him he has one of two choices. One he could take the cat out of me so I could go to the bathroom or I would do it for him. He told me that would not be a wise thing to do. I told him this is not a multiple choice question, so does not have a multiple chioce answer, and I started to get up out of bed. And he said WAIT, WAIT, YOU CAN'T DO THAT DAVE, YOU WILL HURT YOURSELF!!!! I told him I need to go to the bathroom and I gave you a option, you gave me a answer, so now I am giving you mine. So the doctor took my cath out and I walked to the bathroom and have been walking and playing catch with my son and driving a car and going to the bathroom myself ever since.

Now, I did not have the gift of anything at that time, so I was told and thought. But when I came home two days later I found out different, through the Words of Our Lord. You see my frinds I sit here and write to you all with a part of my brain missing. When I had my accident, the metal that what through my head distroyed a peice of it in the front which controls my thoughts and mood swings. Which is why I am disabled, because I cannot handle alot of stress. Everything that I do each and everyday from waking up in the morning, to going to bed at night, is all do to the fact that I believe the scripture and promises of what Jesus taught in His Word. This is why I beg you all to show me where I am wrong, because not only am I responsable for others, I am also responsable for myself. Please, If you are teaching me correctly. Show something that Jesus says to support what you believe. Like I have you. I have no problem humbling down to my Lord, and telling Him that I have been doing Him wrong for nine years.:cry:

always
Nov 20th 2006, 03:36 PM
When it comes to gifts from God, the most important (person on earth) in that equation is self, surprisingly enough, you personally have to deal with the gift that is to be stirred up in you.

In this spiritual realm we all will have our critics, and it is at that time we must make a decision to either serve man or God.

We "test the spirits by the word of God" we must glorify him in whatever we do.


1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God


What individuals think is not important, this is,

Owen
Nov 20th 2006, 03:53 PM
I start this thread due to the fact that the Holy Laughter thread is being closed down and I am interested to hear different opinions about the concept of the Manifestations of the Spirit.

What are Biblically valid manifestations of the Spirit? Those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12? What we find in the book of Acts? What principles should we use to determine whether a manifestation is Biblical, fleshly, or demonic?

Let me know what you think?

One thing that is obvious is that anything that is contrary to the nature of the Spirit-led life is not a manifestation of the Spirit.

But more importantly, is the gift for edification? The gifts are given to edify the body, not to simply be a show. There is no edification, for instance, with people making animal noises. I would question what is edifying about being "slain in the Spirit." All the gifts that are explicitly mention are to serve a purpose for the church.

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 04:31 PM
When it comes to gifts from God, the most important (person on earth) in that equation is self, surprisingly enough, you personally have to deal with the gift that is to be stirred up in you.

In this spiritual realm we all will have our critics, and it is at that time we must make a decision to either serve man or God.

We "test the spirits by the word of God" we must glorify him in whatever we do.


1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God


What individuals think is not important, this is,


Hi Always,

Just one thing if I may

What you say is right concerning the scripture. But as I posted and explained before (I think in my first post on this thread) even satans little ding bats (demons) know that Jesus walked this earth in the flesh, and in the last days I'm sure will have no problem saying so. Just like they had no problem identifying Jesus in Matthew 8:28-29.

This my friend is what started this discussion on gifts, which I have been imformed that for nine years now have been false teaching. Which I have no problem humbling down to Our Lord and begging forgivness for leading His children astry along with myself, and those who have since past on. I want something out of my Lords Word telling me so that is going to back up what was supporting what was being told to me, other then one Chapter. I've given lots of scripture and promises from our Lord in my post, and have been told I was not reading scripture right. I need to be reading scripture right. Brfore in these last days, Our Lord and His scripture is all we have. And if we are not reading it right, we will all perish. God is not playing games, and neither is the enemy. They are both playing for keeps. This is why Jesus came and shed His blood to pave a way for us. Because God knew without it, we would all burn.

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 04:39 PM
One thing that is obvious is that anything that is contrary to the nature of the Spirit-led life is not a manifestation of the Spirit.

But more importantly, is the gift for edification? The gifts are given to edify the body, not to simply be a show. There is no edification, for instance, with people making animal noises. I would question what is edifying about being "slain in the Spirit." All the gifts that are explicitly mention are to serve a purpose for the church.


No, if I am reading your post right (and I may not be) but the gifts that are mentioned are not to serve a purpose to the church. All gifts are to Glorify Our Lord, and are to be used that way. It has nothing to do with the church.

Owen
Nov 20th 2006, 04:44 PM
No, if I am reading your post right (and I may not be) but the gifts that are mentioned are not to serve a purpose to the church. All gifts are to Glorify Our Lord, and are to be used that way. It has nothing to do with the church.

1 Corinthians 12:7:

But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Berean
Nov 20th 2006, 05:05 PM
BCF,

The only point, basically, in which we have disagreed is that all have all the gifts all the time.

And there may have been (may be presently) that do have all the gifts all the time but they are likely apostles.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4 For even as we have many members in one body, and all members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we the many are one body in Christ, and each one members of one another.
Rom 12:6 Then having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, if prophecy, according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 or ministry, in the ministry; or he who teaches, in the teaching;
Rom 12:8 or he who exhorts, in the encouragement; or he who shares, in simplicity; or he who takes the lead, in diligence; or he who shows mercy, in cheerfulness.
Rom 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy, shrinking from evil, cleaving to good;
Rom 12:10 in brotherly love to one another, loving fervently, having led one another in honor.
Rom 12:11 As to diligence, not slothful, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 rejoicing in hope, patient in affliction, steadfastly continuing in prayer,
Rom 12:13 distributing to the needs of the saints, pursuing hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with rejoicing ones, and weep with weeping ones;
Rom 12:16 minding the same thing toward one another, not minding high things, but yielding to the lowly. Do not be wise within yourselves.
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it is possible, as far as is in you, being in peace with all men.
Rom 12:19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Rom 12:20 Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with different kinds of miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

These are all I could find besides 1 Cor's that talk directly about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And about love.

I will not try to give them interpretation but let you draw your own conclusions.

If you would like to PM me that would be fine. I don't want to distress you any further. I will be away from my computer for a while, possibly till this afternoon.

Peace, Berean

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 09:24 PM
1 Corinthians 12:7:

Quote:
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.


Hello Owen,

Yes the manifestation of the Spirit is for the common good of man, but for what? To see the Glory of God.

Like I have explained before. Manifestation of the Spirit simple means to reveal God. When God allows anyone of us to use anyone of the gifts at any point in time that He chooses to, to reveal Himself through us and His Awesome Power, and Love for His children. God does so for His own Glory, not the Churches. The common good that is done, is for man to draw closer to God from it.

Owen
Nov 20th 2006, 09:29 PM
1 Corinthians 12:7:

Quote:
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.


Hello Owen,

Yes the manifestation of the Spirit is for the common good of man, but for what? To see the Glory of God.

Like I have explained before. Manifestation of the Spirit simple means to reveal God.

Actually, it means an exhibition of the Holy Spirit. The exhibition is something that comes from the Holy Spirit. It is not the exhibition of the Holy Spirit itself, per se.


When God allows anyone of us to use anyone of the gifts at any point in time that He chooses to, to reveal Himself through us and His Awesome Power, and Love for His children. God does so for His own Glory, not the Churches. The common good that is done, is for man to draw closer to God from it.

I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you to a degree. I think 1 Corintihans 12 and Ephesians 4 show that the gifts and callings God gives are in order to build up the body. And in that manner, to bring glory to God, but it brings glory to God by building up the church.

ProjectPeter
Nov 20th 2006, 10:21 PM
BCF... may I ask... where have you learned this from? I am curious because I think what I am reading from you really is far afield from what the Scripture makes very clear. And I am wondering if there is someone specifically teaching it this way that you have learned from.

BCF
Nov 20th 2006, 10:57 PM
BCF... may I ask... where have you learned this from? I am curious because I think what I am reading from you really is far afield from what the Scripture makes very clear. And I am wondering if there is someone specifically teaching it this way that you have learned from.


I have learned it from the Bible. As far as who has taught it goes. Jesus Himself taught in the Gospels. Ther has been no one else that I can think of who has taught me this, but then again I could be wrong. I have heard many many teachings on different things over my lifetime. But I have never as I recall heard of any thing being taught the way I know now or should I say,as I have learned by reading Gods Word as I know now. God has revealed a lot to me through my fatal accident. Something just happens to someone that I can't put into Words when you are lieing on a bed, not knowing if you are going to wakeup or not because a doctor tells you that he can't promise you that you will come out of your surgery alive, just before they put you to sleep.

But thanks for asking:)

ProjectPeter
Nov 21st 2006, 02:41 AM
I have learned it from the Bible. As far as who has taught it goes. Jesus Himself taught in the Gospels. Ther has been no one else that I can think of who has taught me this, but then again I could be wrong. I have heard many many teachings on different things over my lifetime. But I have never as I recall heard of any thing being taught the way I know now or should I say,as I have learned by reading Gods Word as I know now. God has revealed a lot to me through my fatal accident. Something just happens to someone that I can't put into Words when you are lieing on a bed, not knowing if you are going to wakeup or not because a doctor tells you that he can't promise you that you will come out of your surgery alive, just before they put you to sleep.

But thanks for asking:)
Then may I ask why it is that you are ignoring a pretty clear biblical fact about the gifts being for the body of Christ? I suppose I don't understand why one would just ignore something so clearly laid out... and it is really clear.

EarlyCall
Nov 21st 2006, 02:55 AM
A person will only receive all the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives if the Holy Spirit chooses to give that person all the gifts. 1st Corinthians is crystal clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given as the Holy Spirit sees fit to give them. This is not arguable without ignoring the absolute clarity of scripture, and that would be dishonest.

If we claim that we can have all the gifts if we ask for them in Jesus' name, then we have an apparent contradiction and we declare, whether through implication or directly that the Holy Spirit in fact does not always choose what gifts to give a person and is overridden by our requests! That simply cannot be so. What then is the answer to this seeming dilema? We would be asking amiss if we asked Jesus for all the gifts. In fact, we need not ask for any gift. God is quite capable and the plans for a man are God's. This is evidenced by the fact that the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts according to His will and not our own.

And then of course Paul goes on to explain that we all make up the different parts of the body of Christ and not that we all make up all parts of the body of Christ. The difference is significant and noteworthy.

amazzin
Nov 21st 2006, 04:33 AM
It is clear to me that Paul in 1 Cor. 12, that the manifestations of the SDpirit is given to each one for the profit of ALL (vs 7). The purpose of these gifts is ministry and not acquisition or demonstration.

Also, Paul doesn't suggest that the gifts are the poccession of the individual or to be ranked in terms of their importance. The function of the gifts is like the individual position of people in the body of Christ. Each person has a place and each person is resourced with the HS in such a way to benefit the whole body.

BCF
Nov 21st 2006, 05:00 AM
Then may I ask why it is that you are ignoring a pretty clear biblical fact about the gifts being for the body of Christ? I suppose I don't understand why one would just ignore something so clearly laid out... and it is really clear.

I'm not ignoring anything, and I am reading it pretty clear. I don't know, maybe I am just making it to simple to believe. First let me tell you that I agree that the gifts are for the body of Christ. But who is the body of Christ? We as followers of Our Lord Jesus Christ are, according to the scripture. In First John 3:1-2, I read scripture that says this, "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons (children) of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew not him. Beloved, now are we the sons (children) of God, and it doth not yet appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I don't know what this scripture tells you, but it tells me that when I accepted Our Lord Jesus as My Lord, I became a child of Gods. Now according to scripture if I am a child of Gods, I am also an heir of God through Christ. I find the proof of that in Galatians4:6-7, And because ye are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servent, but a son; and if a son, then an heir opf God through Christ. Now Jesus tells me that he will not ever leave me nor will he ever forsake me. This is a promise because I do not believe that Jesus would ever lie to me. Well if I am a child of God, and because of this God has sent the Spirit of His Son Jesus into my heart, and Jesus promises me that he would never leave me nor would he ever forske me, and we all agree that the Holy Spirit (who is God or Jesus because they are one in the same) controls the gifts of the Spirit. How can we as Born again believers not receive all the gifts of the Spirit, when the gifts of the Spirit are living inside of Our Hearts, as promised by Our Lord?

In Matthew17:20, Jesus gives the illustration of Faith to His disciples by telling them that if they had faith as a grain of mustard seed, they could tell a mountain to move from one spot to another spot and the mountain would move. I do not believe (and I also don't believe that you believe) that Jesus was talking about a actual mountain. What I believe Jesus was talking about was a problem. Whether the problem was in in marriage, church, money, sickness, pain, whatever. You fill in with whatever you want. If we read the gifts one at a time and ask ourselves simple questions, we will find that we do have all of them and do use them.

Example:
Wisdom- How many times did you use good wisdom today?
Knowledge- How many times did you use good judgement today?
Faith- How many time did you use your faith today?
Healing- did you help someone who was feeling low or down today. Did you make them smile.

And so forth and so on. God is not looking for is to do outragious things to impress people with. All God wants us to do is show the Love that He has in side of us all, and through that Love we show all the gifts of the Spirit.
Why must we make this so hard, when it is so simple.

ProjectPeter
Nov 21st 2006, 08:50 AM
Simple is great. As long as it is simply correct.

BCF
Nov 21st 2006, 12:26 PM
Simple is great. As long as it is simply correct.

Welll then my friend. You show me what is not corrrect about the scripture that I just wrote to you. That was written by Our Lord and taught by Our Lord, in His Holy Word, By His Own Son Jesus. My friend I am not reading nothing that is not there. This is plain and simple. We just make it hard.:)

Pilgrimtozion
Nov 21st 2006, 01:30 PM
BCF,

One of the great problems in the church today is that we have many people who draw logical conclusions from a number of Scriptures, string them together, and then conclude that they have a Biblical thought. This is, however, not necessarily the case. What I see you doing is something similar: you take a number of Scriptures, link them together in a logical way, and draw your conclusion. You are, IMHO, using falacious hermeneutics.

The Spirit gives the gifts to whomever He desires, which is clearly laid out in 1 Corinthians 12. If you read 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul zooms in on two specific gifts, you see that these gifts are not natural things, such as wisdom, knowledge, faith, and healing in the sense that you use them. There is no indication in the whole counsel of Scripture that would point to this. In fact, there is overwhelming evidence that these gifts are supernatural gifts where it is clearly seen that the Holy Spirit is at work - manifestations of the Spirit for the common good. One need only look at what the New testament shows us about healing to realize that, though emotional healing is wonderful, this is not likely the way Paul meant this gift in this Scripture.

We need to be diligent to stay close to the Bible without making it say what we want to say by simply quoting Scripture without regard for Biblical principles and the whole counsel of Scripture.

BCF
Nov 21st 2006, 04:27 PM
BCF,

One of the great problems in the church today is that we have many people who draw logical conclusions from a number of Scriptures, string them together, and then conclude that they have a Biblical thought. This is, however, not necessarily the case. What I see you doing is something similar: you take a number of Scriptures, link them together in a logical way, and draw your conclusion. You are, IMHO, using falacious hermeneutics.

The Spirit gives the gifts to whomever He desires, which is clearly laid out in 1 Corinthians 12. If you read 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul zooms in on two specific gifts, you see that these gifts are not natural things, such as wisdom, knowledge, faith, and healing in the sense that you use them. There is no indication in the whole counsel of Scripture that would point to this. In fact, there is overwhelming evidence that these gifts are supernatural gifts where it is clearly seen that the Holy Spirit is at work - manifestations of the Spirit for the common good. One need only look at what the New testament shows us about healing to realize that, though emotional healing is wonderful, this is not likely the way Paul meant this gift in this Scripture.

We need to be diligent to stay close to the Bible without making it say what we want to say by simply quoting Scripture without regard for Biblical principles and the whole counsel of Scripture.

My friend, yes I agree with you that there are many many people in the church and out of the church who will take scripture and string them together to come up whith there own conclusions. But those people who do that for the most part will not have anything else but those scriptures that they quoted. Why? Because they were either taught that on that day, or they happened to read it during there daily Bible study, and used the referances in there Bible to find the other scripture. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with doing that, because that is a way to learn, but that way could be abused also and I believe alot of times it is.

But when we look at the Bible at a whole and why God gave it in the first place, we see a different purpose. The Bible was given to us by Our Lord for what reason? 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 says that, "All the scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works." When I instruct my son or correct my son from right and wrong, I do not do it because I hate him. No my friend, I do it because I Love Him. In Luke12:22-34, I read about a teaching by Our Lord on how to Seek the Kingdom of God. Jesus starts out by sayin in verse 22, " Therefore I say unto you, Take, no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, wha ye shall put on. (23) The Life is more then meat (food) and the body is more then raiment (clothes)". What I believe Jesus is saying here is do not be so concerned about what you have in this life. Because there is more to life in this life, that the things that you have. Then Jesus goes on to tell about how the ravens don't sow nor do they reap, and neither have a barn to store food in. Yet God feeds them. How much more are you then the fowls of the air. Then Jesus says, and which of you by worrying can add to his standing one lengeth of measure? If you are not able to do that which is least, why are you concerned about the rest. Then He goes on to explain about the lilies of the field and how they grow. How they sin not and toil not. Then Jesus say's that even Solomon in all of his glory was never clothed like one of these lilies. Then Jesus says in verse 28, "If God so clothed the grass, which is today in the field, and tommrrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he cloth you. O ye of little faith?"
Then Jesus says in verses 30&31, "For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that you have need of all of these things. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things will be added unto you." Then Jesus says in verse 34, "For where your treasure is, there will be your heart."

Now my friend, when we read 2 Timothy 3:16, and scripture like Jesus teaches here and through the Gospel, it is not hard to fugure out that this Word from God that we read was given to us by Ou Lord because He Loves Us So Much. Now one may say that you did not need to go through all of that just to say that the Word of God was given to us because He Loves us. Well yes I did. You see my friend from what you wrote back to me, you are assuming that I am linking scripture together to make them sound like what I want them to be. Well here are two different accounts that I have taken out of the Bible to show Gods Love for us as to why God gave us the scripture. By diong this I not only showed that, but I also supported what I have been saying all along on the gifts of the Spirit, while also supporting what I have written to our friend PP in my post to him last night. If Jesus is living in our hearts, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit because Jesus is God because they are one in the same, and Jesus being the Holy Spirit controls all the gifts. How do we not have them all to use?

Sorry for the long post in advance and I hope you can follow it. But I would like to leave you with one thouhgt which we read in James 1:5-7.

"But if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave in the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord."

Here my friend is another scripture from Our Lord that supports what I have been saying all through this thread. Again, why must we make something which God made so simple, so very hard?:(

ProjectPeter
Nov 21st 2006, 05:23 PM
Welll then my friend. You show me what is not corrrect about the scripture that I just wrote to you. That was written by Our Lord and taught by Our Lord, in His Holy Word, By His Own Son Jesus. My friend I am not reading nothing that is not there. This is plain and simple. We just make it hard.:)
What I think you are doing is mixing up the fruit of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. Owen laid it out rather well for you and I suppose I don't see a need to just do the same thing again. I was just curious as to if you heard this teaching from someone or if it was just something you put together yourself.

BCF
Nov 21st 2006, 07:56 PM
What I think you are doing is mixing up the fruit of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. Owen laid it out rather well for you and I suppose I don't see a need to just do the same thing again. I was just curious as to if you heard this teaching from someone or if it was just something you put together yourself.

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you on two of your accounts and for these reasons.

1. There is no eveidence that I see in anything that I have posted on this thread that would make someone think that I was mixing up the gifts of the Spirit with the fruits of the Spirit. Although I must say that without the Holy Spirit (Jesus) living inside of us we would not have either one. I must say that I have confidence in my brother's and sisters who have been responding back to me on this thread that if I would have been doing what you say, someone would have picked that up by now. I have written way to much on this thread for someone not to. Now you could disagree with that if you like. But due to the responses that I have gotten back by other, I cannot say that. As far as I could see on any reply back to me from anyone, everyone knew that I was refering to the gifts of the Spirit.

2. As to brother Owen's reply, all he did was change a word to try and support what he was saying. This my friend would have done nothing but caused a debet on the issue and I have no interest in debeting Our Lords Word. I said that manifestation of the Spirit simple means to reveal God (or the Holy Spirit) he says that manifestation of the Spirit means an exhibition of the Holy Spirit. Whether you say reveal or you say exhibition makes no difference, they both mean to show something. That's like saying that a apple crumb pie is not a apple pie. No matter how you look at it, it's still a apple pie. Then he wants to take me to Ephesians 4 to try and support his point. His point being that "All the gifts that are explicitly mention are to serve a purpose for the church." I disagreed with this by responding, "All gifts are to Glorify Our Lord, and are to be used that way. It has nothing to do with the church." So then he replies, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."
Which I do not disagree with because the are for the common good of man, but for what? For the Glory of God. Then he replies back and changes a word which means the same thing to try and support what he is saying, except he adds Ephesians 4. Well this my friend does not hold water either because as I have showed you through scripture in my post to you last night. We are the body of Christ. God builts His church through us. If we are the sons of God and heirs to Chrst through the Holy Spirit, then we are the Body Of Christ, not the Church. We makeup the Church.

As far as if I had heard this teaching from someone or if I was putting it together myself, I think I answered that for you already. No.

All I am doing is reading what God wrote in His Word for us to read and live by. That's all. Is that not what you mean when you say "Go and Serve Your King". At least that's what I thought it meant. But maybe I am not reading it right. But I think I am.:)

But thank you for responding and discussing. I Love discussing Gods Word.
I guess you are done with this no according to your last post. So it's been great, and God Bless.

ProjectPeter
Nov 21st 2006, 10:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you on two of your accounts and for these reasons.

1. There is no eveidence that I see in anything that I have posted on this thread that would make someone think that I was mixing up the gifts of the Spirit with the fruits of the Spirit. Although I must say that without the Holy Spirit (Jesus) living inside of us we would not have either one. I must say that I have confidence in my brother's and sisters who have been responding back to me on this thread that if I would have been doing what you say, someone would have picked that up by now. I have written way to much on this thread for someone not to. Now you could disagree with that if you like. But due to the responses that I have gotten back by other, I cannot say that. As far as I could see on any reply back to me from anyone, everyone knew that I was refering to the gifts of the Spirit.

2. As to brother Owen's reply, all he did was change a word to try and support what he was saying. This my friend would have done nothing but caused a debet on the issue and I have no interest in debeting Our Lords Word. I said that manifestation of the Spirit simple means to reveal God (or the Holy Spirit) he says that manifestation of the Spirit means an exhibition of the Holy Spirit. Whether you say reveal or you say exhibition makes no difference, they both mean to show something. That's like saying that a apple crumb pie is not a apple pie. No matter how you look at it, it's still a apple pie. Then he wants to take me to Ephesians 4 to try and support his point. His point being that "All the gifts that are explicitly mention are to serve a purpose for the church." I disagreed with this by responding, "All gifts are to Glorify Our Lord, and are to be used that way. It has nothing to do with the church." So then he replies, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."
Which I do not disagree with because the are for the common good of man, but for what? For the Glory of God. Then he replies back and changes a word which means the same thing to try and support what he is saying, except he adds Ephesians 4. Well this my friend does not hold water either because as I have showed you through scripture in my post to you last night. We are the body of Christ. God builts His church through us. If we are the sons of God and heirs to Chrst through the Holy Spirit, then we are the Body Of Christ, not the Church. We makeup the Church.

As far as if I had heard this teaching from someone or if I was putting it together myself, I think I answered that for you already. No.

All I am doing is reading what God wrote in His Word for us to read and live by. That's all. Is that not what you mean when you say "Go and Serve Your King". At least that's what I thought it meant. But maybe I am not reading it right. But I think I am.:)

But thank you for responding and discussing. I Love discussing Gods Word.
I guess you are done with this no according to your last post. So it's been great, and God Bless.
Would you actually listen if I told you?

BCF
Nov 21st 2006, 11:21 PM
Would you actually listen if I told you?

If it came from scripture, just as I have been doing with you. Yes I would.
I may have questions because I may not understand something, but yes I would listen.

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2006, 12:04 AM
If it came from scripture, just as I have been doing with you. Yes I would.
I may have questions because I may not understand something, but yes I would listen.
I will begin on that as soon as I can and I'll go back to some of your post and then we can discuss it. :)

BCF
Nov 22nd 2006, 12:27 AM
I will begin on that as soon as I can and I'll go back to some of your post and then we can discuss it. :)


Okay :cool: sounds great. Looking forward to it.:)

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2006, 12:29 AM
Most of the problem with the gift issue is that most Christians do not believe that that have all of these gifts that are out lined in First Corinthians 12. Yes we are to test the Spirits. But as I have explained in another thread, all testing the Spirits means is to tell the diference between good and evil or the difference between God and satan or the difference between God's way of living and the worlds way or mans way of living. Whichever way you want to define testing the Spirits, what it comes down to is choosing Gods way over satans way, just like Adam and Eve had the chance to test the Spirits back in the Garden. They chose satans way. The testing of Spirits have not changed because the rules of God never change. The only thing that changes is the teachings of man.

The problem that I have about everyone just quoting 1John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." is that they forget what Paul wrote after that verse. Yes I agree this verse is true but we can't just read this verse and say that is it, we go out and test the Spirits and we can find out who is false and who is right. No, this is wrong. Why, because we don't know how to test the Spirits yet. In First John 4:2-3 Paul tells us how to test the Spirits so we can know by saying, [COLOR=blue]By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

As far as the gifts go in first Corinthians 12, I believe that we have each and everyone of them that Pauls mentions. We do not have all of them at one time. But they are all given to each and every Born Again Believer of Our Lord Jesus. I have scripture to back all of that up, and will do so in another reply and not on this one. I think I have made this one long enough. But one thing I will say is that once again we need to look at to why Paul was giving these instructions in the first place to the Church of Corinth. Pauls teaching was not about gifts here, Pauls teaching was actually about Love. These people thought all they needed was the gifts they had from being baptised and accepting Our Lord Jesus. But Paul was telling them No, there is more because you could have all of those gifts, but without Love your Gifts mean nothing to God.Okay... here you are talking about folks having "all" of the gifts of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 ¶Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12 ¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now there are many members, but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
23 and those members of the body, which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness,
24 whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
25 that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. ¶And I show you a still more excellent way.


Paul is making it very clear here that the Spirit doles out the gifts as needed to various members in the body. Using the body analogy Paul says in summary... you have a mouth, ears, eyes, nose, hands, feet, etc. Each member of the body functions together as one body.

If every member had all of the gifts listed then each member would be a whole body all their own. That would make this whole passage goofy at best. Paul makes it clear here that members have different functions as the Spirit gives the various gifts. Not all are prophets. Not all work miracles. Not all speak with tongues etc.

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2006, 12:36 AM
I was once asked, what for gifts do you believe that God blessed you with when you got saved? I replied all of them, why do you ask. They responded by saying well how can you say that, the Bible does not teach that. I have been saved for over fifty years now and have never read that anyone except Jesus has all the gifts. So I asked them what is the greatest gift of them all? They responded, why the gift of Love from Our Lord. I then said, well then my friend, how can you say that you did not receive all the gifts.

You see my friends, when we got saved we received the greatest gift that God could give us. That was the gift of Love. If you or I say that we do not have all the gifts that Our Lord has for us, well then we did not receive the greatest gift of them all. Jesus told Phillip in John 14:13-15, "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If you Love me, keep my commandments." Well this is simple enough for us to understand. If I am reading what Jesus is telling Phillip here correctely, all we need to do in order for Jesus to do anything that we ask Him to do in His name, is Love Him, and keep His commandments. Okay, well Love Him we can do. :hmm: Can't we. :hmm: At least I think we can. :hmm: Yeah, Yeah, what am I thinking here, we are all loving Christians, sure we can. :hmm: Well we will come back to this, let's move on. The other thing that is required in order for Jesus to do anything that we ask in His name, is keep His commandments. Well I'm sure that we all have done that, since we have been saved, at least tried to, I mean none of us are perfect but that is where Gods Grace comes into play, right. Nobody can keep the Ten Commandments, and besides I don't believe that God expects us to be perfect either, that's why He sent Jesus, right. Well yeah, But I find a scripture in John 13:34-35 where Jesus says this, "A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, If ye have love one to another."

Now wait a minute here. something don't seem right. If the greatest gift that God could ever give us is His Love through Our Lord Jesus, and through that gift we would receive all the gifts as long as we ask for them. Why would we teach that we do not have all the gifts at our disposal? Well simply because we don't believe that Jesus will do what He says that He will do. And if we don't believe Him, then there is something wrong with Our Love walk. Now before everyone starts throwing all the darts at me for that last response, let me just remind you that I did not say that, Jesus did. I just wrote it to you.

Manifestation means to manifest something, and manifest means to reveal or show something plainly. So when we are talking about the manifestations of the Spirt, we are talking about the Holy Spirit (or God or Jesus) showing Himself through us plainly. We can find the proof of this from what Jesus tells Phillip in John 14:16-21, "And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter (meaning Holy Spirit) that he may abide (meaning live) with you forever. Even the Spirit of truth (meaning discernment of Spirits, what is truth and what is false) whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (meaning the Spirit of Truth) not, neither knoweth him (meaning Spirit of Truth): but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless (meaning orphens): I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day (meaning the day of pentecost or the day when someone receives the Holy Spirit) ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments (meaning Love for another) and keepeth them, he (meaning them) it is that loveth me: and he (meaning them) that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him (meaning them), and will manifest (meaning reveal) myself to him (meaning them)".

Now if we do not have all the gifts through the Love of Our Lord, well then everything that Jesus told Phillip is not correct. Here Jesus told Phillip that He would pray to the Father for the Holy Spirit to be sent down to us as our comforter. Well since it is the Holy Spirit which holds all of the gifts in the first place, how does anyone explain that we do not have all the gifts? There is no one who could perform any of the gifts that God has for us without the Holy Spirit. Unless of course you are the anti-christ, then I don't put nothing past you. But I am sure that this is not the case. The gifts of the Spirit contrary to belief and church doctrine is something that is received the moment that you receive Our Lord Jesus Christ into your Heart, and start Loving Him with all of your Heart, and believing His Word over the Worlds. This is just what Jesus told Phillip in the verses above. This junk about that everyone receives Jesus differently and gets saved differently and lives in the Spirit differently and feels the Spirit differently is nothing but a bunch of hog wash. God is Love. Jesus died on a Cross because He Loves us. Jesus got beaten half to death because He Loves us. God sent His Son to take this beaten so that we would not have to because He Loves us. God would rather have it that we all go to heaven and not any of us perish into hell because he Loves us. God should not need to send a truck load of angels singing the Hallelujah chorus to us in order for us to understand that when we get saved the first thing that we experance is HIS ALMIGHTY LOVE. That is the first thing that should change in our heart, thinking, the way we act, the way we talk, everything. Why? Because we have our Lord living inside of us and HE IS NOTHING BUT LOVE. We should be on fire for His love and wanting to show it to a lost world. But instead what do we do. We tell people that they don't have all the gifts. This makes no sense.

In Acts 2:14-21, Peter gives an explaination to what had happened at Pentecost to the eleven who were sitting there wondering why everyone was acting so strange. Here the writer Luke tells the account like this, "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the thirdhour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servents and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath: blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Now everyone knows what happened on the day of Pentecost, the people were filled with the Holy Spirit. And when the were filled with the Holy Spirit, they started to speak in tongues. Well if you ask me they must have been doing more then just speaking in tongues because the people who were there watching what was going on who were also fillied with the Holy Spirit at the same time because the scripture says "but Peter standing up with the eleven", and we all know that Jesus had twelve disciples, so I would say that the eleven were the disciples of Jesus minis Peter because Peter would have made twelve. We also know that the disciples of Jesus were indeed filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost also, yet they thought that these people were all drunk. So if the eleven thought that these people who were filled with the Holy Spirit were drunk, that tells me that there was more then just speaking of tongues going on that day. No where in scripture do you find that on the day of Pentecost any of the disciples spoke in tongues. All anyone has ever done was assumed they did. Now the scripture does say that it is one of the gifts and that it is evidence of the Holy Spirit, this is all true. But it is only for Gods purpose and Glory, and only God decides when we need to be speaking in tongues. Not us. I don't care what anyone else says, that's what the scripture says. Jesus said that He will reveal His Spirit to us. Not that we will make Him reveal His Spirit to us. Anyway, moving right along.

Everyone knows the story of Peter walking on water. How do you think Peter was able to do this. Because of the Love that Peter had in his heart for Jesus. Matthew tells the account like this in Chapter 14:25-29, "And in the forth watch of the nightJesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, it is a Spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer, it is I; be not afraid. And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me to come unto thee on the water. And he said Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus." Now Peter could not walk on that water because he had the gift of working miracles that day. No. The reason that Peter could walk on the water that day was because Peter believed that if that was really Jesus out there on the water, Peter could walk on the water also. Why, because Peter believed what Jesus taught him thats why. So when Jesus said come, Peter went and walked on the water. As soon as Peter took his thoughts and his eyes off of Jesus, his Faith left and so did his gift to walk on the water, and he started to sink. How do we know that is true? Because Jesus tells Peter just that in verse 31 after stretching His hand out and catching Peter, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? Now Peter did not need to be filled with the Spirit in order to walk on the water because he had the Spirit right there. All Peter had to do was believe what Jesus said, then just do it. Jesus took care of the rest. Now Peter had the gift of working miracles that day, and he also had the gift of wisdom, and the gift of knowledge, and the gift of Faith and the gift of discernment of Spirits all at the same time. But some of us don't think that this is possible.

Like I said, the gifts of the Spirit are for every single Born Again Believer, all we need to do is believe that we have them. If we can do that, well then God can use those gifts through us for His Glory. If we keep teaching that we cannot receive all the gifts through the Love of Jesus Christ, well then my friends we have just limited Our Lord with what he can do with us. Lets' face it, this world is messed up and it's not going to get any better anytime soon. If we keep telling people that they don't have all the gifts (not for us to use, but for God to use) we are never going to make a difference in this world.

If anyone of you look at those gifts that are listed in First Corinthians 12, you will come to find out that you use most of those gift each and everyday. Everyday we use the gift of wisdom. Everyday we use the gift of knowledge. Everyday we use the gift of Faith. Everyday we use the gift of prophecy (which I like to look at that gift as explaining Gods word to others). Everyday we use the gift of discerning of Spirits (because we are always trying to fugure out what is right and wrong because the enemy is always attacking us). Everyday we use the gift of healing (because we always run into someone who is hurting in some kind of way) Everyday you are speaking in tongues if you are sharing the Gospel with someone who does not know Christ, because to them you are speaking another language. And everyday you are being a interpreter of the scripture which is a different language to those who are among the lost. So you see my friends, each and everyday because of the Love that manifest out of you for Our Lord, Jesus through the Holy Spirit is able to use each and everyone of these gifts in you and I each and everyday. So why would you say that you don't have these gifts, if you have the greatest give of them all living inside of you. Which is Our Lords Gift Of Love I will put this one on the back burner because in all honesty... I don't even know where to begin.

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2006, 01:35 AM
I guess we don't all (believers) have all the gifts because it doesn't say specifically we do or don't. And the only scripture that would indicate we don't is this-

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

You know my friends, what you wrote as to why most believers think this way reminds me of another thing that happened in scripture, which was the fall of man. Back in the Garden if we remember in Genesis 3:3-4, we have the temptation of man. Here in Genesis 3 we have the account of satan talking to Eve and trying to get her to eat from the tree, and we have Eve telling satan that she should not because God said so. Well picking it up here in Genesis 3:3, we have the writer Moses telling us this, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." I believe that we can all agree that in this verse that God was not talking about a physical death from there physical bodies. I beleive that we all know that God was talking about them dieing Spiritually from Him. In saying that, let's move on to what Moses writes in Genesis 3:4, "And the serpent (satan) said unto the women (Eve) Ye shall not surely die:" Here in verse four satan took what God said would happen to Adam and Eve from a Spiritual stand point, and switched it as to meaning physical. We know that because of what Moses writes in the following verse of Genesis 3:5, "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." With satan saying that there eyes would be opened and not their hearts, he took what God was saying from spiritual to physical. Remember my friends Our Lord is concerned about Our Spiritual Lives, not Our Physical Lives.

Now what does this have to do with what we are talking about. If you ask me it is the same thing, just questions. All God told Adam and Eve was that if they ate from the tree they would die. God did not specifically say to Adam and Eve how they would die, just that they would die. I guess God thought that they would Love Him enough to know that He meant from Him, which is Spiritual, I don't know. Well the same thing goes with this. You say that "I guess we don't all (believers) have all the gifts because it doesn't say specifically we do or don't. And the only scripture that would indicate we don't is this-

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way." is playing right into the enemies hand, because he does not want you to know that you have what is available for every single believer in Our Lord Jesus, through His Love for us, and Our Love for Him.

As far as these verses go that you keep quoting. My friend like I told you before, Paul was talking to a church who was using there gifts for the wrong purpose. All he was doing was asking them a bunch of question. They were all going into churchs and during nothing but making a mess of things. If everybody in your church used the same gift of teaching at the same time, what would you accomplish for God? Nothing. If everyone in your church went in and used the gift of speaking in tongues at the same time, what would you accomplish for God? Nothing. If everyone went in to your church and used there gift of healing all at the same time what would you be accomplishing for God? Nothing. But if you all went into your church at the same time and used the gift of Love at the same time, you can all accomplish everything that God has asked you to accomplish and more, all at the same time. But that does not take away the fact of whether or not you have all the Gifts of the Spirit. Because with the greatest Gift of them all, you do have all the Gifts already working for you.
Look... when you put that entire chapter together and read the part about the various members with the various functions and told clearly that to some the gift of ____ and to some the gift of _______ then the clear answer to those questions is NO. Not all are apostles. NO. Not all are teachers, prophets, speak in tongues.... etc.

To read that otherwise is to try and take something out of Genesis 3 and apply what happened there to hear. BCF.. if you come up with this stuff on your own then please hear me out. You need to regroup. There is a reason why your post are confusing folks. Your teaching is confusing. You are all over the place and you apply passages to this issue that have nothing at all to do with the issue. I have read these post and read them and it's just not good friend. I tried to think of an easy way to say it... but there just isn't much else to say other than what I have.

BCF
Nov 22nd 2006, 02:31 PM
Okay... here you are talking about folks having "all" of the gifts of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 ¶Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12 ¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now there are many members, but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
23 and those members of the body, which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness,
24 whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
25 that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. ¶And I show you a still more excellent way.


Paul is making it very clear here that the Spirit doles out the gifts as needed to various members in the body. Using the body analogy Paul says in summary... you have a mouth, ears, eyes, nose, hands, feet, etc. Each member of the body functions together as one body.

If every member had all of the gifts listed then each member would be a whole body all their own. That would make this whole passage goofy at best. Paul makes it clear here that members have different functions as the Spirit gives the various gifts. Not all are prophets. Not all work miracles. Not all speak with tongues etc.

Let me say first that I do not (and I only underlined that to make myself very clear, not because I am upset or anything, so please don't mis red my underlining:) ) disagree at all with what Paul is saying with anything in 1st Corinthians 12.

What I do disagree with and don't believe is mans (or the worlds) interpretation of it. Why? Because it don't lineup with scripture. Not what Paul is teaching, because what Paul is teaching does lineup with scripture. But what man (or the world) is teaching does not lineup with scripture.

Now, I may be wrong here this is why I am asking and listening. I said I may have questions if I did not understand something, well here is my first two question?

1. Who is Paul calling the body here in verse 12, Christ or the Church?

2. Who is Paul saying that we are all baptized into here in verse 13,
Christ or the Church?

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2006, 07:37 PM
Let me say first that I do not (and I only underlined that to make myself very clear, not because I am upset or anything, so please don't mis red my underlining:) ) disagree at all with what Paul is saying with anything in 1st Corinthians 12.

What I do disagree with and don't believe is mans (or the worlds) interpretation of it. Why? Because it don't lineup with scripture. Not what Paul is teaching, because what Paul is teaching does lineup with scripture. But what man (or the world) is teaching does not lineup with scripture.

Now, I may be wrong here this is why I am asking and listening. I said I may have questions if I did not understand something, well here is my first two question?

1. Who is Paul calling the body here in verse 12, Christ or the Church?

2. Who is Paul saying that we are all baptized into here in verse 13,
Christ or the Church?
The Church as a whole BCF. Hence my bolding what he said "to some he gave" and then next gift... "to some he gave". His use of the body as an example. The ear has a job to hear. It cannot smell because it hasn't that gift. The nose has a function to smell. It cannot hear because that isn't his function. If all the body could do is hear but not smell... then it is a weakly functioning body. Using another analogy... if someone yelled fire then the body could do what was necessary. But if there was no one that yelled fire and it needed the function of smell... or sight... or touch... the hearing only body is going to burn up because that body wasn't fully equipped to function as a whole and working body.



The misinterpretation is coming from your side of this BCF.

BCF
Nov 22nd 2006, 08:03 PM
The Church as a whole BCF. Hence my bolding what he said "to some he gave" and then next gift... "to some he gave". His use of the body as an example. The ear has a job to hear. It cannot smell because it hasn't that gift. The nose has a function to smell. It cannot hear because that isn't his function. If all the body could do is hear but not smell... then it is a weakly functioning body. Using another analogy... if someone yelled fire then the body could do what was necessary. But if there was no one that yelled fire and it needed the function of smell... or sight... or touch... the hearing only body is going to burn up because that body wasn't fully equipped to function as a whole and working body.



The misinterpretation is coming from your side of this BCF.

Okay, so let me see if I understand what you are saying Paul is saying here.

In verse 12 Paul is saying that the Chruch is the body of Christ. Correct.:)

And in verse 13 Paul is saying that we are then baptized into the Church.

Correct.:)

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2006, 09:21 PM
Okay, so let me see if I understand what you are saying Paul is saying here.

In verse 12 Paul is saying that the Chruch is the body of Christ. Correct.:)

And in verse 13 Paul is saying that we are then baptized into the Church.

Correct.:)
Uh... no. But since you are just trying to be cute and really have no desire to listen... I'll just stop now and you can continue on your merry way.

BCF
Nov 22nd 2006, 09:53 PM
Uh... no. But since you are just trying to be cute and really have no desire to listen... I'll just stop now and you can continue on your merry way.

No my friend, I'm not trying to be cute, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. That's all. I asked you two questions, you gave me an answer of the Church as a whole. So that tells me that your answer is the Church to my questions. I'm not trying to be cute, just trying to follow what you said.

ProjectPeter
Nov 22nd 2006, 10:14 PM
No my friend, I'm not trying to be cute, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. That's all. I asked you two questions, you gave me an answer of the Church as a whole. So that tells me that your answer is the Church to my questions. I'm not trying to be cute, just trying to follow what you said.In those passages... what is the context?


1 Corinthians 12:12 ¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

For by ONE SPIRIT we are baptized into one body (CHRIST) and that body consist of many members. Understand now?

Paul ends his discourse on the gifts and their proper use in the 14th chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:26 ¶What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
29 And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, let the first keep silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 ¶Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
37 ¶If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39 ¶Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner.

BCF
Nov 22nd 2006, 11:11 PM
In those passages... what is the context?


1 Corinthians 12:12 ¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

For by ONE SPIRIT we are baptized into one body (CHRIST) and that body consist of many members. Understand now?

Yes, thank you very much. That is what I thought Paul was talking about. I thought that Paul was saying that Christ was the body and that we all were baptized into the body of Christ. That is all I wanted to know. I just wanted to make sure that I was not miss reading something there, that's all. Now I can go on and continue reading from there starting with verse fourteen and your bold print and Pauls illustrations. Thanks again. I will get back to you.:)

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2006, 12:01 AM
In those passages... what is the context?


1 Corinthians 12:12 ¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

For by ONE SPIRIT we are baptized into one body (CHRIST) and that body consist of many members. Understand now?

Yes, thank you very much. That is what I thought Paul was talking about. I thought that Paul was saying that Christ was the body and that we all were baptized into the body of Christ. That is all I wanted to know. I just wanted to make sure that I was not miss reading something there, that's all. Now I can go on and continue reading from there starting with verse fourteen and your bold print and Pauls illustrations. Thanks again. I will get back to you.:)
Keep that in mind.... he is using the various body parts as a point. Each body part working together... to edify the whole body. But each body part having a seperate but necessary function which causes the body to work as a whole! If one of the parts is suffering... the whole body suffers as a result. In other words... if one of these gifts is missing and not functioning properly as it should... then the whole body is missing this gift which means that the as a whole... the entire body will suffer as a result.

Then he mentions as well and I need to bring it out because it is important... the ones with the less seemly parts... they are given much honor. Even more so than the more visible parts. An example that I tell folks often. While I might stand out as a position of authority and folks might think you are more visible part and one worthy of great honor... what I do amounts to nothing without folks that aren't seen who lift me up in prayer every day. I couldn't do what I do without that. You won't see those people because they do what they do behind the scenes so to speak. But their work is times more important than mine because with them holding up my arms... I'd tire and the rod would come down.

Hopefully all that made sense. If not then I'll try again!

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2006, 12:01 AM
In those passages... what is the context?


1 Corinthians 12:12 ¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

For by ONE SPIRIT we are baptized into one body (CHRIST) and that body consist of many members. Understand now?

Yes, thank you very much. That is what I thought Paul was talking about. I thought that Paul was saying that Christ was the body and that we all were baptized into the body of Christ. That is all I wanted to know. I just wanted to make sure that I was not miss reading something there, that's all. Now I can go on and continue reading from there starting with verse fourteen and your bold print and Pauls illustrations. Thanks again. I will get back to you.:)
Keep that in mind.... he is using the various body parts as a point. Each body part working together... to edify the whole body. But each body part having a seperate but necessary function which causes the body to work as a whole! If one of the parts is suffering... the whole body suffers as a result. In other words... if one of these gifts is missing and not functioning properly as it should... then the whole body is missing this gift which means that the as a whole... the entire body will suffer as a result.

Then he mentions as well and I need to bring it out because it is important... the ones with the less seemly parts... they are given much honor. Even more so than the more visible parts. An example that I tell folks often. While I might stand out as a position of authority and folks might think you are more visible part and one worthy of great honor... what I do amounts to nothing without folks that aren't seen who lift me up in prayer every day. I couldn't do what I do without that. You won't see those people because they do what they do behind the scenes so to speak. But their work is times more important than mine because with them holding up my arms... I'd tire and the rod would come down.

Hopefully all that made sense. If not then I'll try again!

BCF
Nov 23rd 2006, 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1058945#post1058945)
In those passages... what is the context?


1 Corinthians 12:12 ¶For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

For by ONE SPIRIT we are baptized into one body (CHRIST) and that body consist of many members. Understand now?

Yes, thank you very much. That is what I thought Paul was talking about. I thought that Paul was saying that Christ was the body and that we all were baptized into the body of Christ. That is all I wanted to know. I just wanted to make sure that I was not miss reading something there, that's all. Now I can go on and continue reading from there starting with verse fourteen and your bold print and Pauls illustrations. Thanks again. I will get back to you.:)


Okay, now you really got me confused. What you are telling me is what I have been saying all along. Here you are saying,

"Keep that in mind.... he is using the various body parts as a point. Each body part working together... to edify the whole body. But each body part having a seperate but necessary function which causes the body to work as a whole! If one of the parts is suffering... the whole body suffers as a result. In other words... if one of these gifts is missing and not functioning properly as it should... then the whole body is missing this gift which means that the as a whole... the entire body will suffer as a result."

Now we just agreed that Paul was talking about Christ in verses 12&13 when he was talking about the Body, and when Paul was saying that we all were baptized into the Body. Now here you are saying that Paul is "using the various body parts as a point" which I do understand. I also understand "each body part having a seperate but necessary function which causes the body to work as a whole! If one of the parts is suffering... the whole body suffers as a result." But what I don't understand is what you say next. Because what you say next is what I have been saying all along, and you have been disagreeing with me on. The next thing that you say is this, "In other words... if one of these gifts is missing and not functioning properly as it should... then the whole body is missing this gift which means that the as a whole... the entire body will suffer as a result." This my friend makes no sense as to what you claim.
That we do not all receive the gifts. If we did not receive all the gifts for as to use when we got baptized into the body of Christ who is the one who controls these gifts. Well then none of us even you my friend would be functioning right, and not only my body in Christ but also your body in Christ would suffer. Since Christ is the Body.

Or am I miss reading something that you wrote.

Just asking

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2006, 01:30 AM
I am not talking my body or your single body. I am talking the body as a whole. Remember that the body has many different members. Try it this way.

I am the eye. You are the nose. Pilgrim is the ear. Owen is the hand. Amazzin is the foot. Early Call is the mouth. Etc. Each part (you, me, Owen, Amazzin, EarlyCall) has a different gift and function in the body. If Owen is not using his gift properly, even though he is just one hand... all of us suffer. If I am not using my gift properly... then all of the body suffers.

This passage doesn't tell us that all of the body parts can do all of the gifts. If it did then the analogy of the body isn't a good one. For the eye truly wouldn;t need the hand and the hand truly wouldn't need the ear and the ear truly wouldn't need the nose etc. Each and every member would be full functioning and in no need of the other members.

Does that help?

BCF
Nov 23rd 2006, 04:39 AM
I am not talking my body or your single body. I am talking the body as a whole. Remember that the body has many different members. Try it this way.

I am the eye. You are the nose. Pilgrim is the ear. Owen is the hand. Amazzin is the foot. Early Call is the mouth. Etc. Each part (you, me, Owen, Amazzin, EarlyCall) has a different gift and function in the body. If Owen is not using his gift properly, even though he is just one hand... all of us suffer. If I am not using my gift properly... then all of the body suffers.

This passage doesn't tell us that all of the body parts can do all of the gifts. If it did then the analogy of the body isn't a good one. For the eye truly wouldn;t need the hand and the hand truly wouldn't need the ear and the ear truly wouldn't need the nose etc. Each and every member would be full functioning and in no need of the other members.

Does that help?

Okay, I think understand what Paul was saying as to the body having many different members. 15.If the foot shall say, because I am not a hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? In other words, if a foot would say that it is not a hand, does that mean that it is not part of the body. And the answer would be No. It is still part of the Body. Is this correct. If so I understand what Paul was saying as to the different members, and this would take me to verse 17.

But as to what you are saying, I cannot find in the Bible. Because Paul was using members of our own body. In your illustration you are using different members for the body. May I ask why? The reason I ask is because these are different people making up one whole body. And it would not need to be people you could have said anything instead of those names, but the fact remains you added something to the equation here. Paul is talking about one body baptized in Christ individually. Paul is not talking about one body baptized in Christ as a group. I say this because in verse 18-26 Paul says, "But now hath God set the members everyone of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him. And if they were all one member, where would the body be? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more weak, are necessary. And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and ouir unpresentable parts have more abundant modesty. For our presentable parts have no need: but God has composed the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no division in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And if one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."

Now it would seem to me if God put the members together the way that he wanted, all the members of the body would listen. Like the eye not being able to say to the hand, I don't need you. And like the head saying to the feet, I don't need you. Why, because God composed the body together, and so there can't be no division.

Now with what you are saying does not match up with this. What you are saying is that so and so is an eye, and thus and thus is a hand, and you are this, and I am that, this all makes up a group of something, where what Paul is saying just makes up one whole person in Christ.

Pilgrimtozion
Nov 23rd 2006, 10:43 AM
Okay, I think understand what Paul was saying as to the body having many different members. 15.If the foot shall say, because I am not a hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? In other words, if a foot would say that it is not a hand, does that mean that it is not part of the body. And the answer would be No. It is still part of the Body. Is this correct. If so I understand what Paul was saying as to the different members, and this would take me to verse 17.

But as to what you are saying, I cannot find in the Bible. Because Paul was using members of our own body. In your illustration you are using different members for the body. May I ask why? The reason I ask is because these are different people making up one whole body. And it would not need to be people you could have said anything instead of those names, but the fact remains you added something to the equation here. Paul is talking about one body baptized in Christ individually. Paul is not talking about one body baptized in Christ as a group. I say this because in verse 18-26 Paul says, "But now hath God set the members everyone of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him. And if they were all one member, where would the body be? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more weak, are necessary. And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and ouir unpresentable parts have more abundant modesty. For our presentable parts have no need: but God has composed the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no division in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And if one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."

Now it would seem to me if God put the members together the way that he wanted, all the members of the body would listen. Like the eye not being able to say to the hand, I don't need you. And like the head saying to the feet, I don't need you. Why, because God composed the body together, and so there can't be no division.

Now with what you are saying does not match up with this. What you are saying is that so and so is an eye, and thus and thus is a hand, and you are this, and I am that, this all makes up a group of something, where what Paul is saying just makes up one whole person in Christ.



But BCF, why would it be one or the other? We are a unity, just as our body is one. At the same time we are individually members of that body, as Peter has pointed out quite clearly. So there is unity in diversity, or diversity in unity - however you prefer it. I truly do not see the problem with what Peter is trying to explain. Doesn't the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 clearly explain that one has one gift and another has another gift - but as a body, we have all the gifts (or at least should if we operate as we should)?

BCF
Nov 23rd 2006, 06:19 PM
But BCF, why would it be one or the other? We are a unity, just as our body is one. At the same time we are individually members of that body, as Peter has pointed out quite clearly. So there is unity in diversity, or diversity in unity - however you prefer it. I truly do not see the problem with what Peter is trying to explain. Doesn't the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 clearly explain that one has one gift and another has another gift - but as a body, we have all the gifts (or at least should if we operate as we should)?

Yes I agree, we are a unit. When we are together. But when we are not together we are not a unit. My friend we are not always together, so we are not always a unit. We function out of our individual unit, more then we function out of our unit together. This is what Paul was telling the Corinths. That is why I asked our friend PP who Paul was calling the body in verses 12&13, and our friend thought that I was being cute when he gave me his answer of the church. I was not being cute, I was putting his answer into words, which made no sense at all. It would have been different if Paul would have been talking about the Church as the Body in verses 12&13 but he was not. Paul was talking about the Born Again Believer as the Body of Chist in vers 12, and the Born Again Believer as being Baptized into the Body of Christ in verse 13. Then Paul goes on to give his examples of a single body, and concludes in verse 27 by saying, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually. From verse 14 through 27 Paul never goes into a unit. He is always talking about one individual body (not unit) and how that one individual body has many members working together to make one whole individual Body in Christ. To say that he is not is changing what Paul wrote back in verses 12&13.

Yes as a unit we are powerful because we are together and there is no man on earth or devil in hell that could stop us. Why? Because of all the gifts that are present at the time. As a unit, we have no weakness. But as individuals we are not as strong. Why? Because some of the gifts that we have are not as strong as others. But as Paul says in verse 24, For our presentable parts have no need, but God has composed the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. In other words, the gifts which are not as strong in us, God has given more attention to that part.

My friends, Jesus said that He gives us Power to tread on the head of the serpent. Let me ask you all something. If we do not have all the gifts that Paul outlines here in 1st Corinthians 12, how are we going to use this Power that Jesus gave us when we are not out as a unit, but we are out as a individuals? For example, I live in Pennsylvania, Pilgrimtozion you live All over the place (where ever that is), ProjectPeter is in Minnesota, EarlyCall is in Ohio, amazzin in North America, Vickilynn Mountains of North Carolina, always Texas, Owen Starkville Mississippi, Berean Arizona. Now all together as one unit we are Powerful, and the forces of evil cannot go against us according to scripture. But now lets say that here in Pennsylvania, the forces of evil all of a sudden come against me as a individual, where is my unit going to be to help me fight the forces that are here? Will I be able to call anyone of you on the phone and have you here in an instant? No, I won't. And we don't have to use me, use yourelf for example if you want, it really don't matter.

You see my friends, as Paul was explaining in 1st Corinthians 12, as an individual we also have the same power as we do as a unit. Way? Because we have all the gifts to use as a individual, just the same as we do as a unit. But if we go around believing that we do not have all of these gifts, we my friends have no power as a individual. And as Paul said in verse 27, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually.:)

ProjectPeter
Nov 23rd 2006, 10:53 PM
Yes I agree, we are a unit. When we are together. But when we are not together we are not a unit. My friend we are not always together, so we are not always a unit. We function out of our individual unit, more then we function out of our unit together. This is what Paul was telling the Corinths. That is why I asked our friend PP who Paul was calling the body in verses 12&13, and our friend thought that I was being cute when he gave me his answer of the church. I was not being cute, I was putting his answer into words, which made no sense at all. It would have been different if Paul would have been talking about the Church as the Body in verses 12&13 but he was not. Paul was talking about the Born Again Believer as the Body of Chist in vers 12, and the Born Again Believer as being Baptized into the Body of Christ in verse 13. Then Paul goes on to give his examples of a single body, and concludes in verse 27 by saying, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually. From verse 14 through 27 Paul never goes into a unit. He is always talking about one individual body (not unit) and how that one individual body has many members working together to make one whole individual Body in Christ. To say that he is not is changing what Paul wrote back in verses 12&13.

Yes as a unit we are powerful because we are together and there is no man on earth or devil in hell that could stop us. Why? Because of all the gifts that are present at the time. As a unit, we have no weakness. But as individuals we are not as strong. Why? Because some of the gifts that we have are not as strong as others. But as Paul says in verse 24, For our presentable parts have no need, but God has composed the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. In other words, the gifts which are not as strong in us, God has given more attention to that part.

My friends, Jesus said that He gives us Power to tread on the head of the serpent. Let me ask you all something. If we do not have all the gifts that Paul outlines here in 1st Corinthians 12, how are we going to use this Power that Jesus gave us when we are not out as a unit, but we are out as a individuals? For example, I live in Pennsylvania, Pilgrimtozion you live All over the place (where ever that is), ProjectPeter is in Minnesota, EarlyCall is in Ohio, amazzin in North America, Vickilynn Mountains of North Carolina, always Texas, Owen Starkville Mississippi, Berean Arizona. Now all together as one unit we are Powerful, and the forces of evil cannot go against us according to scripture. But now lets say that here in Pennsylvania, the forces of evil all of a sudden come against me as a individual, where is my unit going to be to help me fight the forces that are here? Will I be able to call anyone of you on the phone and have you here in an instant? No, I won't. And we don't have to use me, use yourelf for example if you want, it really don't matter.

You see my friends, as Paul was explaining in 1st Corinthians 12, as an individual we also have the same power as we do as a unit. Way? Because we have all the gifts to use as a individual, just the same as we do as a unit. But if we go around believing that we do not have all of these gifts, we my friends have no power as a individual. And as Paul said in verse 27, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually.:)
As Owen said earlier... we'll just have to disagree on this one.

BCF
Nov 23rd 2006, 11:02 PM
That's okay, but it is not me that you are disagreeing with. I did nothing more then write down the words from scripture, the why they are put. It's not me that you are disagreeing with. It's what Paul said, and that my friend I can't do nothing about. Only God can.:)

Owen
Nov 24th 2006, 12:38 AM
That's okay, but it is not me that you are disagreeing with. I did nothing more then write down the words from scripture, the why they are put. It's not me that you are disagreeing with. It's what Paul said, and that my friend I can't do nothing about. Only God can.:)

And PP and I disagree Paul is saying what you think he is saying. Thats implicit in what Ken said and explicit in what I said.

BCF
Nov 24th 2006, 01:35 AM
And PP and I disagree Paul is saying what you think he is saying. Thats implicit in what Ken said and explicit in what I said.

I already knew that. But since you thought the need to go ahead and tell me for some reason. Thank you.:)

Pilgrimtozion
Nov 24th 2006, 09:15 AM
Yes I agree, we are a unit. When we are together. But when we are not together we are not a unit. My friend we are not always together, so we are not always a unit. We function out of our individual unit, more then we function out of our unit together. This is what Paul was telling the Corinths. That is why I asked our friend PP who Paul was calling the body in verses 12&13, and our friend thought that I was being cute when he gave me his answer of the church. I was not being cute, I was putting his answer into words, which made no sense at all. It would have been different if Paul would have been talking about the Church as the Body in verses 12&13 but he was not. Paul was talking about the Born Again Believer as the Body of Chist in vers 12, and the Born Again Believer as being Baptized into the Body of Christ in verse 13. Then Paul goes on to give his examples of a single body, and concludes in verse 27 by saying, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually. From verse 14 through 27 Paul never goes into a unit. He is always talking about one individual body (not unit) and how that one individual body has many members working together to make one whole individual Body in Christ. To say that he is not is changing what Paul wrote back in verses 12&13.

Yes as a unit we are powerful because we are together and there is no man on earth or devil in hell that could stop us. Why? Because of all the gifts that are present at the time. As a unit, we have no weakness. But as individuals we are not as strong. Why? Because some of the gifts that we have are not as strong as others. But as Paul says in verse 24, For our presentable parts have no need, but God has composed the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. In other words, the gifts which are not as strong in us, God has given more attention to that part.

My friends, Jesus said that He gives us Power to tread on the head of the serpent. Let me ask you all something. If we do not have all the gifts that Paul outlines here in 1st Corinthians 12, how are we going to use this Power that Jesus gave us when we are not out as a unit, but we are out as a individuals? For example, I live in Pennsylvania, Pilgrimtozion you live All over the place (where ever that is), ProjectPeter is in Minnesota, EarlyCall is in Ohio, amazzin in North America, Vickilynn Mountains of North Carolina, always Texas, Owen Starkville Mississippi, Berean Arizona. Now all together as one unit we are Powerful, and the forces of evil cannot go against us according to scripture. But now lets say that here in Pennsylvania, the forces of evil all of a sudden come against me as a individual, where is my unit going to be to help me fight the forces that are here? Will I be able to call anyone of you on the phone and have you here in an instant? No, I won't. And we don't have to use me, use yourelf for example if you want, it really don't matter.

You see my friends, as Paul was explaining in 1st Corinthians 12, as an individual we also have the same power as we do as a unit. Way? Because we have all the gifts to use as a individual, just the same as we do as a unit. But if we go around believing that we do not have all of these gifts, we my friends have no power as a individual. And as Paul said in verse 27, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually.:)

The question is what Paul meant when he was talking about the Church. You seem to imply that if we are not together, we are not a unit. The Church, however, is an invisible unit that is such whether we gather together or not. In every circumstance and every situation, the Church is still the Church and as such the Body of Christ. I am only a part of that and at all times a part of that. I still think you are misinterpreting the Scripture. But like PP said, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree... :)

Pilgrimtozion
Nov 24th 2006, 09:17 AM
Yes I agree, we are a unit. When we are together. But when we are not together we are not a unit. My friend we are not always together, so we are not always a unit. We function out of our individual unit, more then we function out of our unit together. This is what Paul was telling the Corinths. That is why I asked our friend PP who Paul was calling the body in verses 12&13, and our friend thought that I was being cute when he gave me his answer of the church. I was not being cute, I was putting his answer into words, which made no sense at all. It would have been different if Paul would have been talking about the Church as the Body in verses 12&13 but he was not. Paul was talking about the Born Again Believer as the Body of Chist in vers 12, and the Born Again Believer as being Baptized into the Body of Christ in verse 13. Then Paul goes on to give his examples of a single body, and concludes in verse 27 by saying, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually. From verse 14 through 27 Paul never goes into a unit. He is always talking about one individual body (not unit) and how that one individual body has many members working together to make one whole individual Body in Christ. To say that he is not is changing what Paul wrote back in verses 12&13.

Yes as a unit we are powerful because we are together and there is no man on earth or devil in hell that could stop us. Why? Because of all the gifts that are present at the time. As a unit, we have no weakness. But as individuals we are not as strong. Why? Because some of the gifts that we have are not as strong as others. But as Paul says in verse 24, For our presentable parts have no need, but God has composed the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. In other words, the gifts which are not as strong in us, God has given more attention to that part.

My friends, Jesus said that He gives us Power to tread on the head of the serpent. Let me ask you all something. If we do not have all the gifts that Paul outlines here in 1st Corinthians 12, how are we going to use this Power that Jesus gave us when we are not out as a unit, but we are out as a individuals? For example, I live in Pennsylvania, Pilgrimtozion you live All over the place (where ever that is), ProjectPeter is in Minnesota, EarlyCall is in Ohio, amazzin in North America, Vickilynn Mountains of North Carolina, always Texas, Owen Starkville Mississippi, Berean Arizona. Now all together as one unit we are Powerful, and the forces of evil cannot go against us according to scripture. But now lets say that here in Pennsylvania, the forces of evil all of a sudden come against me as a individual, where is my unit going to be to help me fight the forces that are here? Will I be able to call anyone of you on the phone and have you here in an instant? No, I won't. And we don't have to use me, use yourelf for example if you want, it really don't matter.

You see my friends, as Paul was explaining in 1st Corinthians 12, as an individual we also have the same power as we do as a unit. Way? Because we have all the gifts to use as a individual, just the same as we do as a unit. But if we go around believing that we do not have all of these gifts, we my friends have no power as a individual. And as Paul said in verse 27, Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually.:)

Your words spark another question: are not the gifts for the common good and the uplifting of others? How then does having all the gifts become important in defending ourselves against the onslaught of the enemy? This makes little sense to me...

BCF
Nov 24th 2006, 01:52 PM
Your words spark another question: are not the gifts for the common good and the uplifting of others? How then does having all the gifts become important in defending ourselves against the onslaught of the enemy? This makes little sense to me...

This is a very good question my friend, but without refering to scripture it is hard for me to give an answer. I have been told that my refering to scripture to show something is very confusing, so I wil try this way.

Yes I agree, the gifts are used for the common good and uplifting of others or man. Can you tell me who are the others?

1. Are the others Born Again Believers who already know who God is and his Power and Love for them.

2. Are the others those who do not know Our Lords Love and Power that he has.


How then does having all the gifts become important in defending ourselves against the onslaught of the enemy?

What would God rather have?

1. That we all should perish into outerdarkness?

2. That we all would go to heaven?

I'll let you look for the scripture to these answers, that way I will not confuse anyone by writing it myself.

Pilgrimtozion
Nov 24th 2006, 02:01 PM
This is a very good question my friend, but without refering to scripture it is hard for me to give an answer. I have been told that my refering to scripture to show something is very confusing, so I wil try this way.

Yes I agree, the gifts are used for the common good and uplifting of others or man. Can you tell me who are the others?

1. Are the others Born Again Believers who already know who God is and his Power and Love for them.

2. Are the others those who do not know Our Lords Love and Power that he has.


How then does having all the gifts become important in defending ourselves against the onslaught of the enemy?

What would God rather have?

1. That we all should perish into outerdarkness?

2. That we all would go to heaven?

I'll let you look for the scripture to these answers, that way I will not confuse anyone by writing it myself.

BCF, just to understand your way of interpreting Scripture, can you outline your methods of hermeneutics for me? You lose me completely in the way you mix logic and Scripture in together...

possumliving
Nov 29th 2006, 09:36 AM
Great post, PossumLiving, God has used it to bless my heart, answering many recent prayers. :hug:

We see so much of this today, and the scriptures speak directly to it. Its sad to me that so many people don't seem to pay much attention to what God has said in His word.

I'd recommend people tie in the book of Jude along with the other scriptures you quoted when they study...(I was just reading it this afternoon).

:hug: Back at ya!

blbcHelvsme
Dec 1st 2006, 08:04 AM
Sometimes you have to decern whether or not it's of God.

BCF
Dec 2nd 2006, 12:47 AM
Sometimes you have to decern whether or not it's of God.

This what you say is true. I believe that the enemy knows the scripture better then we do.

But in order for what you are saying to be true, we would all need to have the gift of decernment as Born Again Believers in order to decern whether or not something is from God or not. Don't you think that would be correct? Or am I just thinking nonsence here.

BCF
Dec 14th 2006, 04:25 PM
BCF, just to understand your way of interpreting Scripture, can you outline your methods of hermeneutics for me? You lose me completely in the way you mix logic and Scripture in together...

Pilgrimtozion,

Sorry to have taken so long to respond back to you, but I had a few things to take care of on our farm. Anyway, I guess what you are asking me here is that you do not understand my questions to you. I'm not sure if that is right or not, but that is what I get from your reply. So I will try to break it down for you.

You asked me, "Your words spark another question: are not the gifts for the common good and the uplifting of others?" I in return agreed with what you said by saying, "Yes I agree, the gifts are used for the common good and uplifting of others or man. Can you tell me who are the others?"
In other words what I am asking you from your question is Who Are The Others.

1. Are the others Born Again Believers who already know who God is and his Power and Love for them? OR

2.Are the others those who do not know Our Lords Love and Power that he has?

These are two question that I am asking you based off of your correct answer that all the gifts are for the common good and uplifting of others.

Now can you answer the question of Who Are The Others? This is the first part of my questions broken down for you.

The next question came from your same reply. In this same reply you asked me this question, "How then does having all the gifts become important in defending ourselves against the onslaught of the enemy?"
My answer to your question was this "What would God rather have?"
Then I gave you two answers to choose from,

1. That we all should perish into outerdarkness.

2. That we all would go to heaven.

Then I told you that I would let you look for the scripture for these answers so that I do not confuse anyone. How you do not understand what I am talking about is beyond me. These are very simple question that even a ten year old understands. I know this because I put it to the test by asking a ten year old the same questions while I was walking our horse around in circles for all this time and they answered me. I do not understand how this ten year old would understand what I was asking, but you don't. That really makes no sense.

So if you would answer these questions and I in return will continue with what I had started with you on this topic.

Also if you want me to understand things that you write, use words that are simple to understand, not words that are not even in the dictionary. You do not need to try to impress me with your intellgence because it means nothing. The only thing that means anything is your Love walk for Our Lord shining through you towards others. Without it no matter how much you know or what you can do means nothing, because in the eyes of Our Lord you are nothing but a clanging cymbal.

Pilgrimtozion
Dec 14th 2006, 04:53 PM
Pilgrimtozion,

Sorry to have taken so long to respond back to you, but I had a few things to take care of on our farm. Anyway, I guess what you are asking me here is that you do not understand my questions to you. I'm not sure if that is right or not, but that is what I get from your reply. So I will try to break it down for you.

You asked me, "Your words spark another question: are not the gifts for the common good and the uplifting of others?" I in return agreed with what you said by saying, "Yes I agree, the gifts are used for the common good and uplifting of others or man. Can you tell me who are the others?"
In other words what I am asking you from your question is Who Are The Others.

1. Are the others Born Again Believers who already know who God is and his Power and Love for them? OR

2.Are the others those who do not know Our Lords Love and Power that he has?

These are two question that I am asking you based off of your correct answer that all the gifts are for the common good and uplifting of others.

Now can you answer the question of Who Are The Others? This is the first part of my questions broken down for you.

The next question came from your same reply. In this same reply you asked me this question, "How then does having all the gifts become important in defending ourselves against the onslaught of the enemy?"
My answer to your question was this "What would God rather have?"
Then I gave you two answers to choose from,

1. That we all should perish into outerdarkness.

2. That we all would go to heaven.

Then I told you that I would let you look for the scripture for these answers so that I do not confuse anyone. How you do not understand what I am talking about is beyond me. These are very simple question that even a ten year old understands. I know this because I put it to the test by asking a ten year old the same questions while I was walking our horse around in circles for all this time and they answered me. I do not understand how this ten year old would understand what I was asking, but you don't. That really makes no sense.

So if you would answer these questions and I in return will continue with what I had started with you on this topic.

Also if you want me to understand things that you write, use words that are simple to understand, not words that are not even in the dictionary. You do not need to try to impress me with your intellgence because it means nothing. The only thing that means anything is your Love walk for Our Lord shining through you towards others. Without it no matter how much you know or what you can do means nothing, because in the eyes of Our Lord you are nothing but a clanging cymbal.

Thanks for your response.

My problem is not so much with your questions. I understand the questions and their correct answers. I also understand their implications and where you are going with it. And that sparked my question to outline your methods of hermeneutics. Because like I said, your way of mixing Scripture and logic just does not make sense to me at all.

BCF
Dec 14th 2006, 05:00 PM
Thanks for your response.

My problem is not so much with your questions. I understand the questions and their correct answers. I also understand their implications and where you are going with it. And that sparked my question to outline your methods of hermeneutics. Because like I said, your way of mixing Scripture and logic just does not make sense to me at all.

Well then please define this word hermeneutics for me, so that I can answer what ever it is you want to know. Simply because this word is not in the dictionary and because it is not I do not understand what you want me to answer you.

As far as my logic with scripture goes, I just read what it says and say I believe it as what it says. Maybe that will help you understand my logic with scripture. I beleve Jesus calls if FAITH.

Baerly
Jul 13th 2007, 11:29 PM
I start this thread due to the fact that the Holy Laughter thread is being closed down and I am interested to hear different opinions about the concept of the Manifestations of the Spirit.

What are Biblically valid manifestations of the Spirit? Those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12? What we find in the book of Acts? What principles should we use to determine whether a manifestation is Biblical, fleshly, or demonic?

Let me know what you think?

Hi,it amazes me what people have tried to make out of the Holy Spirit baptism first given to the apostles by the Lord (Luke 24:49) (Acts 1:5,8 ; 2:1-4).

The bible tells us the only way this power could be passed on to others was by or through the laying on of the apostles hands (Act 6:6 ; 8:18). All the apostles died somewhere around the end of the first century. To be an apostle the person had to be personally called by the Lord himself. Jesus is no longer with us on earth,so we need not look for any apostles today.

Now,to have the gifts (we read about in the first century) today (Heb.2:3,4) (Mark 16:17-20) (1Cor.2:4),we would have to disregard the scriptures which teach us that the only way to pass on these gifts to other people was by the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 6:6) ; 8:18).

Since there is no way around these words of God,we must conclude that all spiritual gifts spoken of in (1Cor.12) ceased around the first century some time (1Cor.13:8-13). And the reason would be because the apostles died around that time. They (the apostles) were the only ones who could pass on the gifts according to (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18).

Not only that but the miracles were to confirm the word of God (Heb.2:3,4). They had no completed word of God then,so to prove the person was actually speaking the word of God and was actually sent by God the person preaching would do miracles which proved he was sent by God (John 20:30,31). Remember (John 3:2)? Nichodemus said no man can do these things except God be with him.

My point is this,if anyone can do miracles today,come forward and raise the dead,walk on water,or drink some deadly thing which would kill the ordinary person and prove you have the gifts.

In (Acts 13:6-12) we read about Elymas who opposed the word of God. The apostle Paul struck Elymas blind.Why do we not see any men of God striking people blind today? The reason is because miracles ceased in or around the first century. It is that simple.

I think the very fact that no one is on tv today proving they can do miracles tells us alot. I am confident that the things being portrayed as the gifts of God today,are not. Instead some are rolling on the floor and laughing and telling us it is the power of God.That is not the power of God I read about in the bible.

Baerly

Baerly
Jul 13th 2007, 11:48 PM
This is a very good question my friend, but without refering to scripture it is hard for me to give an answer. I have been told that my refering to scripture to show something is very confusing, so I wil try this way.

Yes I agree, the gifts are used for the common good and uplifting of others or man. Can you tell me who are the others?

1. Are the others Born Again Believers who already know who God is and his Power and Love for them.

2. Are the others those who do not know Our Lords Love and Power that he has.


How then does having all the gifts become important in defending ourselves against the onslaught of the enemy?

What would God rather have?

1. That we all should perish into outerdarkness?

2. That we all would go to heaven?

I'll let you look for the scripture to these answers, that way I will not confuse anyone by writing it myself.

Hi, Tongues were not for the believer,rather they were (in the first century) for the unbeliever according to (1Cor.14:22).

WE do not have access to the miracles (gifts) today (1Cor.13:8-13).

in love Baerly

VerticalReality
Jul 15th 2007, 03:55 AM
Hi,it amazes me what people have tried to make out of the Holy Spirit baptism first given to the apostles by the Lord (Luke 24:49) (Acts 1:5,8 ; 2:1-4).

The bible tells us the only way this power could be passed on to others was by or through the laying on of the apostles hands (Act 6:6 ; 8:18). All the apostles died somewhere around the end of the first century. To be an apostle the person had to be personally called by the Lord himself. Jesus is no longer with us on earth,so we need not look for any apostles today.

Now,to have the gifts (we read about in the first century) today (Heb.2:3,4) (Mark 16:17-20) (1Cor.2:4),we would have to disregard the scriptures which teach us that the only way to pass on these gifts to other people was by the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 6:6) ; 8:18).

Since there is no way around these words of God,we must conclude that all spiritual gifts spoken of in (1Cor.12) ceased around the first century some time (1Cor.13:8-13). And the reason would be because the apostles died around that time. They (the apostles) were the only ones who could pass on the gifts according to (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18).

Not only that but the miracles were to confirm the word of God (Heb.2:3,4). They had no completed word of God then,so to prove the person was actually speaking the word of God and was actually sent by God the person preaching would do miracles which proved he was sent by God (John 20:30,31). Remember (John 3:2)? Nichodemus said no man can do these things except God be with him.

My point is this,if anyone can do miracles today,come forward and raise the dead,walk on water,or drink some deadly thing which would kill the ordinary person and prove you have the gifts.

In (Acts 13:6-12) we read about Elymas who opposed the word of God. The apostle Paul struck Elymas blind.Why do we not see any men of God striking people blind today? The reason is because miracles ceased in or around the first century. It is that simple.

I think the very fact that no one is on tv today proving they can do miracles tells us alot. I am confident that the things being portrayed as the gifts of God today,are not. Instead some are rolling on the floor and laughing and telling us it is the power of God.That is not the power of God I read about in the bible.

Baerly

The Word does not say that the only way the power could pass to another was through the laying on of hands by the apostles. You're just assuming such since it just so happened to be apostles laying on hands in those passages. However, nowhere in those passages does it state that being an apostle is a requirement and it cannot happen unless an apostle is the one doing it.

I mean really . . . what do you expect? They (the apostles) were the foundation of the early church! Who else were these people supposed to receive from? There was nobody else. If they didn't get it from the apostles, they didn't have anyone else to go to. However, that also does not mean that once the apostles died that this was no longer available and it passed away with them. To say so is simply adding a lot of assumption to the Word of God.

VerticalReality
Jul 15th 2007, 03:56 AM
WE do not have access to the miracles (gifts) today (1Cor.13:8-13).



Sure we do. Seen it many times before, and I'm sure I'll see it many times in the future. Perhaps it's just your experience that tells you otherwise. There's an abundance of people on this forum that would speak contrary to your experience.

godsgirl
Jul 17th 2007, 10:46 AM
Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit-He said it was the promise of the Father. Peter said that the promise is, and I quote, "for you, for your children, and for all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". And that my friends, includes me.

The baptism in the Spirit is for all who will accept. When it happens, we receive the ability to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enables us to speak-that's what happened in scripture=you will find that in each and every case evidence is given of the baptism-tongues are there-and we, at least, many of us---are people of the Book.

DAISHI
Jul 20th 2007, 11:50 AM
WE do not have access to the miracles (gifts) today (1Cor.13:8-13).



If you think that which is perfect means the Bible, then sure. But otherwise I don't see this as a argument against miracles at all.

godsgirl
Jul 21st 2007, 10:46 AM
If you think that which is perfect means the Bible, then sure. But otherwise I don't see this as a argument against miracles at all.


We still see "through a glass darkly" and we still do not "know as we are known"-so that does absolutly not mean the "Bible".

justsurfing
Jul 23rd 2007, 12:57 AM
I start this thread due to the fact that the Holy Laughter thread is being closed down and I am interested to hear different opinions about the concept of the Manifestations of the Spirit.

What are Biblically valid manifestations of the Spirit? Those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12? What we find in the book of Acts? What principles should we use to determine whether a manifestation is Biblical, fleshly, or demonic?

Let me know what you think?

I just know that the Holy Spirit inside of me fills me with joy.

And when something is said or done that is hurtful... joy rises within me by the Holy Spirit.

I laugh a great deal and am very happy.

I believe that the laughter I laugh is because of the joy of the Lord within me... and I would say it is of the Spirit of the Lord and a good fruit of joy that keeps me from being wounded or hurt and keeps my soul healthy in love.

I, for one, then must say that I believe in "holy laughter".

Love in Christ,

js

godsgirl
Jul 23rd 2007, 12:01 PM
I just know that the Holy Spirit inside of me fills me with joy.

And when something is said or done that is hurtful... joy rises within me by the Holy Spirit.

I laugh a great deal and am very happy.

I believe that the laughter I laugh is because of the joy of the Lord within me... and I would say it is of the Spirit of the Lord and a good fruit of joy that keeps me from being wounded or hurt and keeps my soul healthy in love.

I, for one, then must say that I believe in "holy laughter".

Love in Christ,

js

The Joy of the Lord is your strength.