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Owen
Nov 24th 2006, 09:58 PM
Whether you have participated in the discussion or not, I am interested to see if readers of these threads have ever had their mind changed somehow as a result of these threads.

OSAS - Once Saved, Always Saved (belief in eternal security)
NOSAS - Not Once Saved, Always Saved (does not believe in eternal security)

This is NOT a place to debate the topic whatsoever. It is only to discuss the question of whether the discussions change your minds or not.

slightlypuzzled
Nov 24th 2006, 10:24 PM
Well, I might have possibly began to think about perusing the idea of turning over in mind any means by whick I could, if moved by the Spirit and circumstances, be able to take a hard look at just maybe beginning to reconsider.....ummm....uhhh now I forgot the question, what was the answer?

Owen
Nov 24th 2006, 10:26 PM
Well, I might have possibly began to think about perusing the idea of turning over in mind any means by whick I could, if moved by the Spirit and circumstances, be able to take a hard look at just maybe beginning to reconsider.....ummm....uhhh now I forgot the question, what was the answer?

:lol: Sometimes thats how I feel in those threads. "What was original question that we got sidetracked from?"

Slug1
Nov 24th 2006, 10:53 PM
I'm NOSAS and have not seen any (convincing) evidence otherwise in any forum(s)

moonglow
Nov 24th 2006, 10:55 PM
I was orginally NO-OSAS but due to a discussion on here, I went to OSAS...but I have to say it was based more on a member that I greatly admired that change my mind, rather then a balanced view of scriptures...I reasoned he must be right because he was so rock solid on it...(being stubborn actually...:lol:) That was wrong of me to go by an admired member on here. I felt this person had more bibical knowledge then I, did so was seeing something I couldn't understand yet...that was wrong. I think we need to be really careful about following the scriptures and not a person, because people make mistakes.

Later, in getting involved in the discussion again, this time seeing scriptures that proved for a fact a person can reject God and His gift (not lose it as if its taken because you sin too many times like people assume that is what NO-OSAS means), I went back to the NO-OSAS and so far I have seen no scriptures that shows me God forces anyone into Heaven that has rejected Him. Of course this is different then the lost sheep discussed in the bible, the backsliden Christians...this is an ongoing event of totally refusing the gift that they once had. So I am still in that camp...and it was all due to the discussions on this board which of course, included scriptures.

My conclusions were drawn by scriptures posted only...not because I admired a certain member like before, and not due to any arguementanyone put out...just sorely on the scriptures posted and in my own studies of those scriptures.

edited...I forgot to say you didn't have a selection for changing from one to another and back again...:lol: but that is ok...too many choices and everyone would confused! lol

God bless

chal
Nov 24th 2006, 11:25 PM
Didn't see an option that fit me. Before I decided I studied both sides for about 3 years, and weighed them both against scripture independantly, rather than against each other.

NOSAS reminds me of when I was a kid and my father would tell me, "Boy, you better not give me no sass, or I'll tan your hide!":lol:

I don't like any of the dreaded acronyms, because none of them capture anything close to what I believe. For instance, I do think that it's possible to always be saved, once you are saved, just not necessarily so. Therefore NOSAS doesn't really fit. Let's see maybe we need a new one;

MOSAS (Maybe Once Saved Always Saved). The MOSASic Salvation law?

Nah! That ain't it either.

Quickened
Nov 24th 2006, 11:31 PM
I like the discussions! Helped me view things differently! People have alot of insight. Its interesting to read the both sides discuss things.

Owen
Nov 25th 2006, 05:17 AM
Didn't see an option that fit me. Before I decided I studied both sides for about 3 years, and weighed them both against scripture independantly, rather than against each other.

NOSAS reminds me of when I was a kid and my father would tell me, "Boy, you better not give me no sass, or I'll tan your hide!":lol:

I don't like any of the dreaded acronyms, because none of them capture anything close to what I believe. For instance, I do think that it's possible to always be saved, once you are saved, just not necessarily so. Therefore NOSAS doesn't really fit. Let's see maybe we need a new one;

MOSAS (Maybe Once Saved Always Saved). The MOSASic Salvation law?

Nah! That ain't it either.

Well, NOSAS (yeah, I don't love the use of acronyms, but I don't want to type it out every single time, but the irony is I just typed all this out :D ) doesn't mean that one must fall away. It is simply just stating that there is the possibility of falling away.

Now maybe you mean something different, like someone people are OSAS and others are NOSAS.

chal
Nov 25th 2006, 10:39 AM
Well, NOSAS (yeah, I don't love the use of acronyms, but I don't want to type it out every single time, but the irony is I just typed all this out :D ) doesn't mean that one must fall away. It is simply just stating that there is the possibility of falling away.

Now maybe you mean something different, like someone people are OSAS and others are NOSAS.

chal > Yeah kinda like that, but mostly I mean that acronyms are not precise enough and it's easy for others to fall into false assumtions concerning what you believe when you have one or the other on your banner, i.e., it pigeon-holes you into a cramped space that very few people actually fit, yet they are always going to be confronted with the same old circular arguments based on those generalities that the dreaded acronyms carry with them.

I just think that people should argue in a more orderly fashion and not assume that because someone doesn't agree with the acronym that they subscribe to, that this someone necessarily believes everything that is generally attributed to the other, or that standard rhetoric based on those generalities replaces an actual argument with a logical progression. It happens all the time on the board. Going around in circles and gotcha last posting techniques. I usually spend all my limirted posting time pointing out non sequiturs, because sometimes there are pages and pages of usless argument (sometimes very heated) that could have been avoided because they are not grounded in any logical premise. or they are based on false assumtions. It seems that everyone wants to argue too many points simultaneously and many valid points get buried in a pile of useless banner waving rhetoric that no one pays any attention to anyway (and I don't think that debates are the answer. I just mean a more polite and ordely discussion).

Vickilynn
Nov 25th 2006, 02:29 PM
I'm NOSAS and have not seen any (convincing) evidence otherwise in any forum(s)

Shalom,

Yup. Exactly what my Brother said.

Keemah
Nov 25th 2006, 03:17 PM
I have always been NOSAS, and always will be. There are far too many Scriptures supporting it to make it possible to change my mind.

humbled
Nov 25th 2006, 05:10 PM
I haven't been counting long, but I count 5 who always believed NOSAS and 6 that always believed OSAS .... tho the poll says 6 NOSAS and 4 OSAS.

Wierd ...

Vickilynn
Nov 25th 2006, 05:18 PM
I haven't been counting long, but I count 5 who always believed NOSAS and 6 that always believed OSAS .... tho the poll says 6 NOSAS and 4 OSAS.

Wierd ...

Shalom Brother,

Not everyone who votes posts and vice versa.

humbled
Nov 25th 2006, 05:23 PM
Shalom Brother,

Not everyone who votes posts and vice versa.It doesn't only count the ones who post, does it? I thought it counted the ones who vote. :confused

Owen
Nov 25th 2006, 05:26 PM
I haven't been counting long, but I count 5 who always believed NOSAS and 6 that always believed OSAS .... tho the poll says 6 NOSAS and 4 OSAS.

Wierd ...

slightlypuzzled earlier accidentally voted the wrong option and seemed to have changed it, though it didn't register his name with the change. And ballewjordan's vote somehow got lost in the tally. So it is in fact 6 NOSAS and 5 OSAS on the last two.

humbled
Nov 25th 2006, 05:28 PM
slightlypuzzled earlier accidentally voted the wrong option and seemed to have changed it, though it didn't register his name with the change. And ballewjordan's vote somehow got lost in the tally. So it is in fact 6 NOSAS and 5 OSAS on the last two.
LOL .. good. I thought 2nd grade wasn't paying off! :lol:

Owen
Nov 25th 2006, 05:29 PM
LOL .. good. I thought 2nd grade wasn't paying off! :lol:

What? You haven't heard about that "new math?" :lol:

ScottJohnson
Nov 25th 2006, 05:57 PM
I've always had an issue with the term, "nosas". The fact is, I've never accepted OSAS, but because of message board discussions, not necessarily here, my view has evolved somewhat.

chal
Nov 25th 2006, 06:10 PM
LOL .. good. I thought 2nd grade wasn't paying off! :lol:

Or though you were in Florida perhaps?

Vickilynn
Nov 25th 2006, 06:31 PM
It doesn't only count the ones who post, does it? I thought it counted the ones who vote. :confused

Shalom Humbled,

It counts the ones who vote. But some post and don't vote. I've done that before, simply because I forgot to vote! :o

cheech
Nov 25th 2006, 07:23 PM
I've always believed NOSAS and nothing here has really changed my mind. If anything, I've stopped reading those threads. They start out good but just end up mud slinging. Then when people start anyalyzing every single word and their other meanings...ugh :rolleyes:. I think we sometimes miss the real meaning when we start analyzing.

DSK
Nov 26th 2006, 12:21 AM
It is quite interesting to note, that due to the OSAS/NOSAS discussions, two individuals who once believed in OSAS were led to switch their view to the NOSAS side because of the discussions. On the other hand, it doesn't appear that the discussions led anyone to switch over to the OSAS camp.
This proves that such discussions with Scripture presentations and commentary can be helpful in assisting some individuals to see a gem of truth that may have previously been hidden from them, for whatever reason.

skc53
Feb 5th 2007, 03:38 PM
I voted I've always believed OSAS!

FaithfulSheep
Feb 6th 2007, 11:14 AM
I used to believe OSAS and now, through discussions which led me to read in my Bible I believe in NOSAS. That is, that you can truly be a Christian and completely choose not be a Christian any longer. Thanks to countless Christians (and a now non-Christian who posts regularly on here) for educating me and giving me the desire to read more about what God's Word has to say on this subject.

DSK
Feb 6th 2007, 11:15 AM
Update

It is quite interesting to note, that due to the OSAS/NOSAS discussions, four individuals who once believed in OSAS were led to switch their view to the NOSAS side because of the discussions on this topic.

Owen
Feb 6th 2007, 11:17 AM
Update

It is quite interesting to note, that due to the OSAS/NOSAS discussions, four individuals who once believed in OSAS were led to switch their view to the NOSAS side because of the discussions on this topic.

Indeed. Although, to be honest, we have to also consider sample sizes and possibly bias in the poll. But it is interesting nevertheless.

beachbum53
Feb 6th 2007, 02:07 PM
I voted OSAS, still studying. I don't read the discussions on here anymore on that subject.

ProjectPeter
Feb 6th 2007, 03:50 PM
And I know of several others who haven't done or seen this poll who have changed their view on this in just the last six months or so. But in keeping with fairness... I am sure there are others who have switched to both views. It happens but the point being... the discussion does impact folks belief in the matter.

karenoka27
Feb 19th 2007, 03:55 AM
I have always been a OSAS believer....I have not read anything here that has changed that. Actually I don't think I ever got involved in one of those discussions. Is anyone going to start one or is it a been there done that situation?

Mercy4Me
Feb 19th 2007, 05:47 AM
I have always been a OSAS believer....I have not read anything here that has changed that. Actually I don't think I ever got involved in one of those discussions. Is anyone going to start one or is it a been there done that situation?

I've seen several since I've been around...usually on Bible Chat, I think. All you'd have to do is run a search on one or the other terms, and I'm sure you'd find more discussion than one could read in a lifetime! :D Well, maybe a bit of exaggeration there...

Like Cheech, I've always believed NOSAS and nothing here has changed my mind, either, although I have read quite a bit and studied a lot more. I think my opinion about HOW someone could lose their salvation has evolved, but my opinion on whether or not it can be lost hasn't changed. I've enjoyed the discussions and challenge to take another look at my position, and read more Scripture on the subject, though! When the discussions stay loving and respectful, that is...

Walstib
Apr 16th 2007, 07:55 PM
Almost feeling a bit lonely in my category here..... :)

For me I had never given the subject much thought one way or the other before I got involved on message boards. I do know the continual "feeling" of never being good enough was prevalent in my walk and added to my struggles. After seeing the reasoning for OSAS posted and the scriptural backing I was convicted that it is true. Not that feelings matter much anyway but my relationship and trust have been stronger, as far as I can tell, since changing my mind. We will see what the future holds with that conviction but it gets stronger the more I study the Word.

Thanks to God that believing one way or the other will not keep us from heaven! Though I often think of the responsibility for teaching one way or the other, what repercussions there will be for those who are so forceful yet wrong. It can't be both ways. I enjoy the discussions, even all the crazy banter, as it leads me into deeper study that many things come out of. As well as learning how to better treat my spiritual family and control my emotions while discussing things. Learning about bunny trails, set up questions and strawmen. What tough love is when discuting the Word. How doctrine is built and picked apart. More growth under pressure as I see things.


Joe

hearmenow
Mar 22nd 2011, 06:42 AM
I have always been confused by the theory or fact depending on who I ask by the once saved always saved.:blush:

Well to start off with does this mean that once I am saved I can not physically or mentally do any thing to change that as in some how G_D or myself or HOLLY GHOST will not let me do any thing wrong even if I tried. Like if I tried to murder someone some force would keep me from doing it. Or is it that I can not want to do these things because having the HOLLYSPIRIT in me will not let me want such tings, Or that I can do them and my but I am forgiven and G_D knew I was going to do these wrongs and forgave me.

Secondly if I can not do something that would condemn me like denounce JESUS than haven’t I lost my free will which his father my father has given me. I mean if I am no longer aloud to choose a path which is contradictory to Christian faith than I no longer have free will. Correct.

It always seems to me when I ask this I get referred to the saved person will not denounce JESUS or kill ECT. Then I ask what if they do. Answer always seems to be well then they were not truly saved in the first place.:hmm:

That is kind of like waiting to see who is in heaven and saying see these were the people who were really saved. Wow I could predict that after the fact or say some one saved until they slide and then say no it was not the real salvation.:o

I do not mean this in any derogatory way nor to be picking on once saved always saved but rather I am truly confused and want to understand. I know this site will have some one who can explain it to me in way I can comprehend.

Thank you all but mostly thank you G_D for this help:pp

Firstfruits
Mar 22nd 2011, 01:07 PM
I have always been confused by the theory or fact depending on who I ask by the once saved always saved.:blush:

Well to start off with does this mean that once I am saved I can not physically or mentally do any thing to change that as in some how G_D or myself or HOLLY GHOST will not let me do any thing wrong even if I tried. Like if I tried to murder someone some force would keep me from doing it. Or is it that I can not want to do these things because having the HOLLYSPIRIT in me will not let me want such tings, Or that I can do them and my but I am forgiven and G_D knew I was going to do these wrongs and forgave me.

Secondly if I can not do something that would condemn me like denounce JESUS than haven’t I lost my free will which his father my father has given me. I mean if I am no longer aloud to choose a path which is contradictory to Christian faith than I no longer have free will. Correct.

It always seems to me when I ask this I get referred to the saved person will not denounce JESUS or kill ECT. Then I ask what if they do. Answer always seems to be well then they were not truly saved in the first place.:hmm:

That is kind of like waiting to see who is in heaven and saying see these were the people who were really saved. Wow I could predict that after the fact or say some one saved until they slide and then say no it was not the real salvation.:o

I do not mean this in any derogatory way nor to be picking on once saved always saved but rather I am truly confused and want to understand. I know this site will have some one who can explain it to me in way I can comprehend.

Thank you all but mostly thank you G_D for this help:pp

Have you checked the forum for threads linked to your your inquiry? There are quit a few.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2011, 01:44 AM
I have always been confused by the theory or fact depending on who I ask by the once saved always saved.:blush:

Well to start off with does this mean that once I am saved I can not physically or mentally do any thing to change that as in some how G_D or myself or HOLLY GHOST will not let me do any thing wrong even if I tried. Like if I tried to murder someone some force would keep me from doing it. Or is it that I can not want to do these things because having the HOLLYSPIRIT in me will not let me want such tings, Or that I can do them and my but I am forgiven and G_D knew I was going to do these wrongs and forgave me.

Hi Heamenow,

The doctrine of OSAS means that one one is save they cannot be lost. It is "NOT" a Biblical doctrine. The only way this doctrine even stays around is by Christians proof-texting the Scriptures to support it.



Secondly if I can not do something that would condemn me like denounce JESUS than haven’t I lost my free will which his father my father has given me. I mean if I am no longer aloud to choose a path which is contradictory to Christian faith than I no longer have free will. Correct.

You do have free will and can choose the path you take, that is why we have all of those admonitions in Scripture to, hold fast, keep the faith, strive to enter, etc.


It always seems to me when I ask this I get referred to the saved person will not denounce JESUS or kill ECT. Then I ask what if they do. Answer always seems to be well then they were not truly saved in the first place.:hmm:


That is kind of like waiting to see who is in heaven and saying see these were the people who were really saved. Wow I could predict that after the fact or say some one saved until they slide and then say no it was not the real salvation.:o

I do not mean this in any derogatory way nor to be picking on once saved always saved but rather I am truly confused and want to understand. I know this site will have some one who can explain it to me in way I can comprehend.

Thank you all but mostly thank you G_D for this help:pp



This is a logical fallacy. It is starting with the conclusion to create the premise.

What OSAS folks don't seem to realize is that if that is the case, that one who later turns away was never saved, then they cannot ever know if they are saved. Yet the apostles John says, 'these things are written that you may know that you have eternal life'. We never know what will happen tomorrow, so, if someone thinks he is a Christian today and is living what he believes is for the Lord and 5 years from now decides to have an adulterous affair and chooses the women over Christ, they say he was never saved. That would mean that 5 years earlier (Today) when he thought he was living for the Lord he wasn't (according to them). So, while they thin they are saved, according to their doctrine they are not, therefore, they cannot really ever know until they die.

Slug1
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:44 AM
If OSAS was God's truth... there would be no warnings in the Bible about falling away, there would be no scripture in the Bible about restoration and WHY repent, all repentance scripture wouldn't be needed except for that initial act of repentance, there would be no scripture in the Bible concerning the need to continue to resist satan, there would be no need for explanation about the Sword of the Spirit and Armor of God, there would be no scriptures about the need to endure, there would be no scriptures concerning any need to overcome till the end, no running the race scriptures, no need for the barren fig tree parable, no need for the scripture concerning getting removed from the vine...

OSAS doctrine IGNORES all these parts of the Bible... thus VERY, VERY, VERY far... from the truth.

Kingsdaughter
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:57 AM
There have been many threads on this topic.

Pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages....

Both sides going back and forth,back and forth,back and forth.....

If you check the forum of threads linked to your inquiry,you will find PLENTY of reading material.

just a suggestion.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 23rd 2011, 03:30 AM
I have always been confused by the theory or fact depending on who I ask by the once saved always saved.:blush:

Well to start off with does this mean that once I am saved I can not physically or mentally do any thing to change that as in some how G_D or myself or HOLLY GHOST will not let me do any thing wrong even if I tried. Like if I tried to murder someone some force would keep me from doing it. Or is it that I can not want to do these things because having the HOLLYSPIRIT in me will not let me want such tings, Or that I can do them and my but I am forgiven and G_D knew I was going to do these wrongs and forgave me.

Secondly if I can not do something that would condemn me like denounce JESUS than haven’t I lost my free will which his father my father has given me. I mean if I am no longer aloud to choose a path which is contradictory to Christian faith than I no longer have free will. Correct.

It always seems to me when I ask this I get referred to the saved person will not denounce JESUS or kill ECT. Then I ask what if they do. Answer always seems to be well then they were not truly saved in the first place.:hmm:

That is kind of like waiting to see who is in heaven and saying see these were the people who were really saved. Wow I could predict that after the fact or say some one saved until they slide and then say no it was not the real salvation.:o

I do not mean this in any derogatory way nor to be picking on once saved always saved but rather I am truly confused and want to understand. I know this site will have some one who can explain it to me in way I can comprehend.

Thank you all but mostly thank you G_D for this help:pp

I tried an experiment, we will see if it will be helpful to you.

I merged your thread into an older discussion on this topic. Please read back through from the beginning and see if any of the posts help develop the question you are asking....

Blessings,

Redeemed by Grace
Mar 23rd 2011, 03:34 AM
I have always been confused by the theory or fact depending on who I ask by the once saved always saved.:blush:

Well to start off with does this mean that once I am saved I can not physically or mentally do any thing to change that as in some how G_D or myself or HOLLY GHOST will not let me do any thing wrong even if I tried. Like if I tried to murder someone some force would keep me from doing it. Or is it that I can not want to do these things because having the HOLLYSPIRIT in me will not let me want such tings, Or that I can do them and my but I am forgiven and G_D knew I was going to do these wrongs and forgave me.

Secondly if I can not do something that would condemn me like denounce JESUS than haven’t I lost my free will which his father my father has given me. I mean if I am no longer aloud to choose a path which is contradictory to Christian faith than I no longer have free will. Correct.

It always seems to me when I ask this I get referred to the saved person will not denounce JESUS or kill ECT. Then I ask what if they do. Answer always seems to be well then they were not truly saved in the first place.:hmm:

That is kind of like waiting to see who is in heaven and saying see these were the people who were really saved. Wow I could predict that after the fact or say some one saved until they slide and then say no it was not the real salvation.:o

I do not mean this in any derogatory way nor to be picking on once saved always saved but rather I am truly confused and want to understand. I know this site will have some one who can explain it to me in way I can comprehend.

Thank you all but mostly thank you G_D for this help:pp

If you are a newbie in the faith, my advice is simply, love the Lord with all your heart, mind and being, and to love your neighbor, your enemies, your family and friends.

Study the word daily, seek His will through His word, and I trust you will grow in understanding as you ask God each day to give you more grace, wisdom and understanding.

May you only be persuaded by the truth of the gospel. Start with the Book of John and then follow up with Romans and enjoy the journey as God directs, and take it slowly and enjoy each word as you read and study.

Blessings....

Slina
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:44 AM
I've always been OSAS, and the discussions here haven't really changed that. Although, it did at least let me see that Christians could believe in the possibility of losing salvation without having it be a works-based thing, partly by seeing the difference between discussions here and arguments made by, say, Roman Catholics (who of course have a pretty works-based version of NOSAS which I've been familiar with for most of my life). So while I haven't changed views really, the debates here have certainly given me more respect for the other side.

hearmenow
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:58 AM
I tried an experiment, we will see if it will be helpful to you.

I merged your thread into an older discussion on this topic. Please read back through from the beginning and see if any of the posts help develop the question you are asking....

Blessings,

yes this is helpful thank you I tried finding posts on the subject knowing it was a popular one, but I some how missed it.

Thanks again

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2011, 07:16 AM
“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1).

“But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Tim. 5:8).

“For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs” (1 Tim. 6:10).

“O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldy and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith” (1 Tim. 6:20-21).

“…men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some” (Tim. 2:18).

“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless you faith the test?” (2 Cor. 13:5)

“…he has now reconciled you in his fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard” (Col. 1:22-23).

“…fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith” (1 Tim. 1:19-20).

notuptome
Mar 23rd 2011, 11:59 AM
“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1).

“But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Tim. 5:8).

“For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs” (1 Tim. 6:10).

“O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldy and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith” (1 Tim. 6:20-21).

“…men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some” (Tim. 2:18).

“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless you faith the test?” (2 Cor. 13:5)

“…he has now reconciled you in his fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard” (Col. 1:22-23).

“…fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith” (1 Tim. 1:19-20).
As I was reading this post something stuck out at me. Faith is spoken of in all the verses but grace is not mentioned even one time. The Apostle who wrote all the verses listed also wrote 2 Tim 1:12 where he gives a testimony that he is persuaded that God is able to keep that which he has entrusted to Him until the day of redemption.

We are saved by grace God does the saving. Faith received from hearing Gods word allows us to be saved by God. Gal 2:20... the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Perspective is important. Only God can change a heart. If we play a bigger part in our walk with Christ than Christ Himself we have the worng perspective.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amos_with_goats
Mar 23rd 2011, 12:13 PM
yes this is helpful thank you I tried finding posts on the subject knowing it was a popular one, but I some how missed it.

Thanks again

I am glad to hear it. :)

There are a few other threads that I might have chosen, but I like this one because it speaks to the essential idea of a 'discussion'... that of having our understanding changed (or refined).

It seems to me that much of the resistance to this comes from fear. If someone (mis)understands this issue as undermining their faith they will protect against it.

Here is what I know. I know that scripture does not contradict it's self. The Lord is not double minded, and the Word made Flesh can not speak against Himself.

For me, the entire OSAS / NOSAS 'argument' is invalid. We no that nothing is able to separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus from that wonderful passage that is Romans 8... AND all of the scripture posted by Looking Up is also true.

The study of scripture requires taking in the WHOLE counsel, not just the bits that please us.

I do not find the contradiction where many see it here. :hmm:


“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1).

“But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Tim. 5:8).

“For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs” (1 Tim. 6:10).

“O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldy and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith” (1 Tim. 6:20-21).

“…men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some” (Tim. 2:18).

“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless you faith the test?” (2 Cor. 13:5)

“…he has now reconciled you in his fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard” (Col. 1:22-23).

“…fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith” (1 Tim. 1:19-20).

RollTide21
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:34 PM
NOSAS reminds me of when I was a kid and my father would tell me, "Boy, you better not give me no sass, or I'll tan your hide!":lol:
NOSAS would be more like your father saying "Boy, you better not give me no sass, or I'll kick you out of the house and disown you forever."

RollTide21
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:50 PM
If OSAS was God's truth... there would be no warnings in the Bible about falling away, there would be no scripture in the Bible about restoration and WHY repent, all repentance scripture wouldn't be needed except for that initial act of repentance, there would be no scripture in the Bible concerning the need to continue to resist satan, there would be no need for explanation about the Sword of the Spirit and Armor of God, there would be no scriptures about the need to endure, there would be no scriptures concerning any need to overcome till the end, no running the race scriptures, no need for the barren fig tree parable, no need for the scripture concerning getting removed from the vine...

OSAS doctrine IGNORES all these parts of the Bible... thus VERY, VERY, VERY far... from the truth.And NOSAS cannot reconcile the COUNTLESS numbers of Christians who were saved, despaired, rebelled...sometimes for years...and were restored. They say that being restored is different from being RE-saved...which is the explanation for Hebrews 6:4-6. This presents the issue of just exactly WHEN does someone lose the Grace of God. What are the guidelines? Outright denouncement of Faith? Fine. I can go along with that, as impossible as it is to fathom for me. Weakness? Doubt? Never. I sometimes wonder if people truly understand what the Grace of God is all about.

As for my current position, I believe that God is faithful and, by his Grace, will hold those who truly love Him. He is the Great Potter and will ultimately turn weakness into glory. I can only see loss of salvation occurring in the event that someone willfully requests to be removed from that Grace.

The Mighty Sword
Mar 23rd 2011, 02:54 PM
I'm a firm believer in nosas, and I also don't believe GOD will allow sin into heaven.

keck553
Mar 23rd 2011, 03:04 PM
Revelation speaks of a falling away. Falling away from what?

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2011, 03:08 PM
As I was reading this post something stuck out at me. Faith is spoken of in all the verses but grace is not mentioned even one time. The Apostle who wrote all the verses listed also wrote 2 Tim 1:12 where he gives a testimony that he is persuaded that God is able to keep that which he has entrusted to Him until the day of redemption.

We are saved by grace God does the saving. Faith received from hearing Gods word allows us to be saved by God. Gal 2:20... the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Perspective is important. Only God can change a heart. If we play a bigger part in our walk with Christ than Christ Himself we have the worng perspective.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes because the issue is not God's ability but man's. Man's responsibility is faith, God's part is Grace. Therefore all of the verses Looking up quoted are concerned with faith, man's responsibility. The verses you quoted speak of God's ability, I don't think there is anyone on this board who doubts God's ability to save. The verse that speak of losing salvation "DO NOT" speak of God's part, grace, they speak of man's part.

You see this is the problem the OSAS crowd faces, they appeal to the verse that Speak of God's ability, yet, no one, not even the non-OSAS people doubt God's ability to save. On the other hand the OSAS Crowd ignore or tries to explain away the verse that speak of man's responsibility. So, there really is no reason to post any passages of Scripture that speak of God's ability, this is merely a smokescreen that attempts to redirect the focus of the question from man's responsibility to God's grace, which is not the issue.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:02 PM
And NOSAS cannot reconcile the COUNTLESS numbers of Christians who were saved, despaired, rebelled...sometimes for years...and were restored. .....

Unless you understand the scriptural idea of salvation.

While our salvation was secured at Calvary, it is ultimately a future event (when the Lamb's book of Life is opened).

The 'bouncing in and out' is only from our perspective...

This is why OSAS vs NOSAS is an invalid argument.

RollTide21
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:17 PM
Unless you understand the scriptural idea of salvation.

While our salvation was secured at Calvary, it is ultimately a future event (when the Lamb's book of Life is opened).

The 'bouncing in and out' is only from our perspective...

This is why OSAS vs NOSAS is an invalid argument.Can you expound on that a little bit? Thanks.

notuptome
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:26 PM
Yes because the issue is not God's ability but man's. Man's responsibility is faith, God's part is Grace. Therefore all of the verses Looking up quoted are concerned with faith, man's responsibility. The verses you quoted speak of God's ability, I don't think there is anyone on this board who doubts God's ability to save. The verse that speak of losing salvation "DO NOT" speak of God's part, grace, they speak of man's part.

You see this is the problem the OSAS crowd faces, they appeal to the verse that Speak of God's ability, yet, no one, not even the non-OSAS people doubt God's ability to save. On the other hand the OSAS Crowd ignore or tries to explain away the verse that speak of man's responsibility. So, there really is no reason to post any passages of Scripture that speak of God's ability, this is merely a smokescreen that attempts to redirect the focus of the question from man's responsibility to God's grace, which is not the issue.
Man's responsibility?? The only thing man is responsible for is to believe, to receive, to accept what Christ has done. Man can only do this through hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17 We live by the faith of Jesus Christ not by our faith. Gal 2:20 We live not by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:4

Sin no longer has any power to kill over those whom God has made alive in Christ. The blood of Christ breaks the power of sin to produce death in the soul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:30 PM
Didn't see an option that fit me. Before I decided I studied both sides for about 3 years, and weighed them both against scripture independantly, rather than against each other.

NOSAS reminds me of when I was a kid and my father would tell me, "Boy, you better not give me no sass, or I'll tan your hide!":lol:

I don't like any of the dreaded acronyms, because none of them capture anything close to what I believe. For instance, I do think that it's possible to always be saved, once you are saved, just not necessarily so. Therefore NOSAS doesn't really fit. Let's see maybe we need a new one;

MOSAS (Maybe Once Saved Always Saved). The MOSASic Salvation law?

Nah! That ain't it either.I know what you mean though. Good point.

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:36 PM
As I was reading this post something stuck out at me. Faith is spoken of in all the verses but grace is not mentioned even one time. The Apostle who wrote all the verses listed also wrote 2 Tim 1:12 where he gives a testimony that he is persuaded that God is able to keep that which he has entrusted to Him until the day of redemption.

We are saved by grace God does the saving. Faith received from hearing Gods word allows us to be saved by God. Gal 2:20... the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Perspective is important. Only God can change a heart. If we play a bigger part in our walk with Christ than Christ Himself we have the worng perspective.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHello notuptome. I guess your chosen user name speaks of your position without you saying anything, huh? I absolutely agree that without God’s grace, we’re done. In that sense, it’s certainly not up to us. But God didn’t create a bunch of robots—God has given us the ability to respond to Him in faith (without faith it is impossible to please God, Heb. 11: 6). His grace never stops—it’s always there for anyone who through faith desires to receive it. But as Scripture says, we can fall away from the faith and the truth. That’s why we are admonished to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith and to hold tightly to the faith.

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:54 PM
…We no that nothing is able to separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus from that wonderful passage that is Romans 8... AND all of the scripture posted by Looking Up is also true.

The study of scripture requires taking in the WHOLE counsel, not just the bits that please us.

I do not find the contradiction where many see it here. :hmm:Hi there! I want to point out that Rom. 8 says that nothing is able to separate us from the love of God “in Christ Jesus.” Where is this love found that cannot be separated from us? In Christ Jesus. This promise is for those who are in Christ through faith. If you fall away from the faith and deny the truth, how can you rely on those promises any longer?

Amos_with_goats
Mar 23rd 2011, 04:59 PM
Hi there! I want to point out that Rom. 8 says that nothing is able to separate us from the love of God “in Christ Jesus.” Where is this love found that cannot be separated from us? In Christ Jesus. This promise is for those who are in Christ through faith. If you fall away from the faith and deny the truth, how can you rely on those promises any longer?

Exactly, I agree. It does not argue against the verses you cited... which is what I said. :)

notuptome
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:04 PM
Hello notuptome. I guess your chosen user name speaks of your position without you saying anything, huh? I absolutely agree that without God’s grace, we’re done. In that sense, it’s certainly not up to us. But God didn’t create a bunch of robots—God has given us the ability to respond to Him in faith (without faith it is impossible to please God, Heb. 11: 6). His grace never stops—it’s always there for anyone who through faith desires to receive it. But as Scripture says, we can fall away from the faith and the truth. That’s why we are admonished to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith and to hold tightly to the faith.
As a father I did all I could to keep my children from harm. How could I expect my heavenly Father to do any less? There are no scriptures in the NT where God allows His children to perish. Hebrews states the He chastens us even scourges us but never do we see our Father allowing or causing us to perish.

Now Heb 11:6 where does the faith come from? All of Heb 11 is about hearing Gods word and obeying it. Through this righteousness was imputed to men. 2 Cor 5:21 We as believers are made the very righteousness of God in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:12 PM
Man's responsibility?? The only thing man is responsible for is to believe, to receive, to accept what Christ has done. Man can only do this through hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17 We live by the faith of Jesus Christ not by our faith. Gal 2:20 We live not by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:4

Sin no longer has any power to kill over those whom God has made alive in Christ. The blood of Christ breaks the power of sin to produce death in the soul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

See Rog, you don't allow that passages can be understood other than the way you understand them. You say man is only responsible to believe, yet Jesus says man is responsible to obey, to keep the commands, to follow him, etc.

You don't allow another use of faith except your. The faith of Jesus Christ can be understood two ways. I can be understood to mean Jesus' personal faith in something or it can be understood as the body of Christian doctrine that was delivered by Jesus Christ.Since you acknowledge that faith comes by hearing it should be obvious the faith of Jesus Christ means the body of Christian doctrine. However, your belief system does not allow for this option so you are required to hold these two positions in opposition to one another, rather than abandon the doctrines and seek to reconcile the Scriptures.

You say that sin no longer has the power to kill those who have been made alive, yet the apostle says otherwise.

Hebrews 3:7-15 ( KJV )
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Can you present Scripture stating that man is incapable of turning from God?

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:12 PM
And NOSAS cannot reconcile the COUNTLESS numbers of Christians who were saved, despaired, rebelled...sometimes for years...and were restored. They say that being restored is different from being RE-saved...which is the explanation for Hebrews 6:4-6. This presents the issue of just exactly WHEN does someone lose the Grace of God. What are the guidelines? Outright denouncement of Faith? Fine. I can go along with that, as impossible as it is to fathom for me. Weakness? Doubt? Never. I sometimes wonder if people truly understand what the Grace of God is all about.

As for my current position, I believe that God is faithful and, by his Grace, will hold those who truly love Him. He is the Great Potter and will ultimately turn weakness into glory. I can only see loss of salvation occurring in the event that someone willfully requests to be removed from that Grace.I relate to what you’re saying. My view is that God is in the saving business. God didn’t send His Son to Calvary so we could die; He did it so we could live! I truly believe God goes after us like a shepherd after a sheep or a Father after a son. The only thing that can separate us from Him is our own choice to deny His Son and thus Him.

Butch5
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:15 PM
As a father I did all I could to keep my children from harm. How could I expect my heavenly Father to do any less? There are no scriptures in the NT where God allows His children to perish. Hebrews states the He chastens us even scourges us but never do we see our Father allowing or causing us to perish.

Now Heb 11:6 where does the faith come from? All of Heb 11 is about hearing Gods word and obeying it. Through this righteousness was imputed to men. 2 Cor 5:21 We as believers are made the very righteousness of God in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You did all you could? Did you hide them away in a bunker to protect them? Did you have a medical staff at their sides continuously? Did you deny them the right to make every single decision in their lives?

Amos_with_goats
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:18 PM
Can you expound on that a little bit? Thanks.

Happily. :)

We in our temporal (Western) thinking tend to get snagged in a trap where we see all events in history as centered around our present reality.

Ideas like dispensationalism, and this argument/discussion (OSAS/NOSAS) are based in this flawed thinking.

We know that Christ is the Lamb that was slain before the foundations of the earth, He was the sacrifice at Calvary, and He became our Lord at the moment we accepted His gift of our own free will (for me, October of 1986).

However, our salvation is ultimately a (yet future) event. Once we are saved from judgment, and our name is read from the Lamb's book of life then Christ's statement that "it is finished" will be realized.

All this foolishness about stepping into and out of a 'saved' status is just that... foolishness. We live out our choices, and receive our reward.

Our view centers on our understanding, and our understanding is flawed. We try to fix salvation in our minds like it was an on and off switch... it is at once much more complicated, and more simple then we make it out to be.

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:20 PM
Exactly, I agree. It does not argue against the verses you cited... which is what I said. :):) :thumbsup: :)

RollTide21
Mar 23rd 2011, 05:32 PM
Happily. :)

We in our temporal (Western) thinking tend to get snagged in a trap where we see all events in history as centered around our present reality.

Ideas like dispensationalism, and this argument/discussion (OSAS/NOSAS) are based in this flawed thinking.

We know that Christ is the Lamb that was slain before the foundations of the earth, He was the sacrifice at Calvary, and He became our Lord at the moment we accepted His gift of our own free will (for me, October of 1986).

However, our salvation is ultimately a (yet future) event. Once we are saved from judgment, and our name is read from the Lamb's book of life then Christ's statement that "it is finished" will be realized.

All this foolishness about stepping into and out of a 'saved' status is just that... foolishness. We live out our choices, and receive our reward.

Our view centers on our understanding, and our understanding is flawed. We try to fix salvation in our minds like it was an on and off switch... it is at once much more complicated, and more simple then we make it out to be.But that still presents this scenario:

Right now, if you died, you are set to spend eternity with Christ. Since you are obviously still living, is there a chance that, when either Christ returns or you die, you will find yourself facing eternity separated from Christ?

hopefulagain
Mar 23rd 2011, 08:36 PM
Hi Owen;

Never changed me.

Bandit
Mar 23rd 2011, 10:21 PM
But that still presents this scenario:

Right now, if you died, you are set to spend eternity with Christ. Since you are obviously still living, is there a chance that, when either Christ returns or you die, you will find yourself facing eternity separated from Christ?


Perhaps Amos is thinking along these lines:

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. [Phil. 3:12-19]

and these

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air; but I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. [1 Cor. 9:24-27]

Slug1
Mar 24th 2011, 12:44 AM
I can only see loss of salvation occurring in the event that someone willfully requests to be removed from that Grace.This is my opionion but no request has to be made... a person's actions results in the final outcome. God says to endure, so if a person fails to do what will enable this enduring till the end, then... they must accept the consequence. Same with all the other warnings... if we dont' heed the warnings (our action), then the consequence of not an eternal existence with God but instead, an eternal separation from God is the result.

If we are secure... then no need for ANY of those warnings. Some so clear cut, some people can't believe the meaning. I mean, if God says... be obedient and do My will so fruit is produced and a person DON'T heed this warning and the scripture says that those who don't do this are cut off... those who want to hold onto their OSAS doctrine MUST disbelieve the truth of such scriptures.

You say that NOSAS can't reconcile countless Christians who accepted Christ (are saved) but then decided to separate themselves from this salvation through their rebellion?? What NOSAS reconciles is this... that scripture about restoration CAN be exercised. OSAS say their is NO NEED to exercise this scripture... no NEED because salvation is SECURE to a OSAS, so then... WHY is there any need in the Bible for restoration?

Well, it's for those who have rebelled and if they don't humble themselves, confess, admit their sin before God and receive forgiveness and God restores them... that acceptance of Christ means squat when the critical time of judgment happens. They can present their OSAS doctrine all they want and the Bible explains that Jesus will say... I don't know you.

For the record... maybe we have to define rebellion? I mean, if I get drunk, I have sinned. I repent and don't do it again. That is not rebellion. However, if I get drunk because my wife died and I can't take the loss and am tempted this way to return to the world for comfort and peace and I tell God, screw YOU with all the hand and arm signals and I decide to drink myself to death over the next 20 years cursing at God the whole time and punching every single Christian who says that they are praying for me... in my addiction I kill a person while robbing a liqueur store because 1) I can't afford to buy the booze and 2) I really don't give a hoot at life, my life, or anyone else's life. I then run from the cops while drunk and I only want to get drunker with the booze I stole and I get hit by a car and I get killed... will my acceptance of Jesus 25 years before this, 5 years walking in Christ, produce fruit and being used in a mighty way by God, healing people as God led, casting out demons as God led, will that 5 years in Christ... really keep me in heaven?

Now, I didn't die when I got hit. I get sent to jail for the rest of my life, I get clean, I begin to listen to that prison missionary and then... I repent, I ask for forgiveness and I not only humble myself before God but remain humble, God restores me and now I am being used by God in the prison... I know I exercised NOSAS to the fullest and reconciled all those scriptures.

I don't understand why a person would walk away from their relationship with Jesus... except to say that satan was able to devour them. Why do I say this... because this is ANOTHER warning in the Bible. Lost people have NO WORRIES about being devoured by satan, they are lost, no need to tempt them AWAY from Christ, all satan has to do is KEEP them away from Christ. A saved Christian though... has be tempted away, lured back into sin and if they don't repent and receive restoration... then THEY are those devoured and thus the warning in the Bible about the fact that satan prowls around for those he can devour. he don't have to find lost people, he's already GOT THEM. Those he loses, those he LOST to Christ... they are the ones he's seeking to devour.

AndrewBaptistFL
Mar 24th 2011, 01:02 AM
If you’ve read the various threads, I assume you’ve read my posts as well as those of us all. I have not found any evidence to support a doctrine of Eternal Security and in fact, the more I look, the more I find against such an idea. Salvation is based on the work of Christ Jesus, my Lord and my God. He’s the vine and I am one of the branches. Apart from Him I can do nothing. With Christ = Salvation, Not With Christ = No Salvation. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and the only way to the Father.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 24th 2011, 02:33 AM
But that still presents this scenario:

Right now, if you died, you are set to spend eternity with Christ. Since you are obviously still living, is there a chance that, when either Christ returns or you die, you will find yourself facing eternity separated from Christ?


Perhaps Amos is thinking along these lines:

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. [Phil. 3:12-19]

and these

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air; but I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. [1 Cor. 9:24-27]

It is a really really great question.

The answer lies in the entire counsel of scripture. I see (and am attempting to share) the error in the argument that would express the answer in the OSAS context.

I know this sounds complicated, but really it is simple... take every scripture used to 'argue' one side against the other and there is the truth of the matter.

To express the answer as men like (in terms of mens doctrine) you seem to wind up with mostly error.... for instance;

OSAS = live like you want, as long as you say a prayer once you are fireproof.

NOSAS = live in fear, and strive to comply with whatever portions of the Word you can in an effort to 'make it'.

Neither position is right... the answer is much more simple (and complicated). Both of the positions people 'settle for' and then fall in line with (can) induce error...

If you follow these discussions, as long as they go, there will be certain scriptures people try to cite as though they oppose each other... there is no opposition in the Word... only in our understanding.

Slug1
Mar 24th 2011, 02:38 AM
NOSAS = live in fear, and strive to comply with whatever portions of the Word you can in an effort to 'make it'.I never understood NOSAS as this... I understand NOSAS to be in alignment with scripture.

Not living in "fear" and striving... simply being obedient to God and the Bible explains "how" and through Jesus, led by the Holy Spirit, that "how" is accomplished. If we are NOT accomplishing this... the Bible not only tells us the "how" but also warns us about not doing and what will happen. If we aren't obedient, then the Bible informs us "what" to do to return to being able to do the "how".

If OSAS was true... then the Bible wouldn't need that "what" to do for restoration at all. If security is true and final... no need for restoration, obedience, etc.

Amos_with_goats
Mar 24th 2011, 03:01 AM
I never understood NOSAS as this... I understand NOSAS to be in alignment with scripture.

Not living in "fear" and striving... simply being obedient to God and the Bible explains "how" and through Jesus, led by the Holy Spirit, that "how" is accomplished. If we are NOT accomplishing this... the Bible not only tells us the "how" but also warns us about not doing and what will happen. If we aren't obedient, then the Bible informs us "what" to do to return to being able to do the "how".

If OSAS was true... then the Bible wouldn't need that "what" to do for restoration at all. If security is true and final... no need for restoration, obedience, etc.

I believe that, and Slug, I read your posts over many of these threads to be consistent with my own understanding. It is the way the argument is framed that is false... not the adherents to one side or the other. My simple expression of the positions is intended to boil down what is wrong/seen as wrong on either side.

I abide in Christ. I am thankful for His Grace which makes that possible.

I will have my name read on the last day BECAUSE of that grace, I stand on it.

I still have free will, and may well choose to go astray... but for grace. None of the scriptures on either side are in error.... the Truth is to NOT REJECT any of them, but accept the grace to walk in the counsel of scripture....

I don't know if this is helping or hurting the discussion, but I can go on praising the Lord while talking about this for a very long time. :)

Slug1
Mar 24th 2011, 03:05 AM
I don't know if this is helping or hurting the discussion, but I can go on praising the Lord while talking about this for a very long time. :)Hooah... I'll just praise with ya and sing that latest song I posted in the other thread... Jesus is Coming Soon!!

LankyLee
Mar 24th 2011, 04:12 AM
I'm NOSAS and have not seen any (convincing) evidence otherwise in any forum(s)

try the Bible. :)

RollTide21
Mar 24th 2011, 01:38 PM
I believe that, and Slug, I read your posts over many of these threads to be consistent with my own understanding. It is the way the argument is framed that is false... not the adherents to one side or the other. My simple expression of the positions is intended to boil down what is wrong/seen as wrong on either side.

I abide in Christ. I am thankful for His Grace which makes that possible.

I will have my name read on the last day BECAUSE of that grace, I stand on it.

I still have free will, and may well choose to go astray... but for grace. None of the scriptures on either side are in error.... the Truth is to NOT REJECT any of them, but accept the grace to walk in the counsel of scripture....

I don't know if this is helping or hurting the discussion, but I can go on praising the Lord while talking about this for a very long time. :)I THINK I understand what you are saying. Nevertheless, I am with you completely in your bottom line. I abide in the Holy Spirit and Walk in the righteousness granted to me by His Grace. This particular discussion provokes neither conviction or encouragement. I just enjoy talking about the Lord. LOL.

BroRog
Mar 24th 2011, 04:27 PM
I THINK I understand what you are saying. Nevertheless, I am with you completely in your bottom line. I abide in the Holy Spirit and Walk in the righteousness granted to me by His Grace. This particular discussion provokes neither conviction or encouragement. I just enjoy talking about the Lord. LOL.

The idea that God is intimately involved in our salvation is an encouragement the Apostles offer.

percho
Mar 24th 2011, 05:29 PM
I believe this is what God is doing:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Now that statement has been made known as a mystery unto the called according to his purpose. These are the ones we are classifying as OSAS or NOSAS. These are the ones spoken of in Acts 15:14 as being called out as a people for God's name. Is their salvation complete presently (have been saved) or will it be when verse 16 takes place "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:" , that their salvation is complete (shall be saved as in Rom. 5:10) that OSAS would apply, allowing verse 17 to take place, "That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." Notice they seek after the Lord and those upon whom his name is called, there by over time bringing about Eph. 1:10 quoted above.

notuptome
Mar 24th 2011, 06:38 PM
Rom 8:16 the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

1 John 5:13 these thing have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that ye may know that ye have eternal life.

All we await is glorification with our Christ. We wait to receive our glorified eternal bodies. We are saved today and we are in process of sanctification until we are glorifed together with Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Kingsdaughter
Mar 24th 2011, 06:38 PM
It is a really really great question.

The answer lies in the entire counsel of scripture. I see (and am attempting to share) the error in the argument that would express the answer in the OSAS context.

I know this sounds complicated, but really it is simple... take every scripture used to 'argue' one side against the other and there is the truth of the matter.

To express the answer as men like (in terms of mens doctrine) you seem to wind up with mostly error.... for instance;

OSAS = live like you want, as long as you say a prayer once you are fireproof.

NOSAS = live in fear, and strive to comply with whatever portions of the Word you can in an effort to 'make it'.

Neither position is right... the answer is much more simple (and complicated). Both of the positions people 'settle for' and then fall in line with (can) induce error...

If you follow these discussions, as long as they go, there will be certain scriptures people try to cite as though they oppose each other... there is no opposition in the Word... only in our understanding.

I think I understand what you are saying Amos. After reading through the many threads on this topic, I realize that I am not NOSAS and I am not OSAS. Because I am neither, I am free and open to learn whatever the Holy Spirit wants to teach me in His word, without my mind being pre-programmed because I am on one side or the other(NOSAS/OSAS). I don't even like those acronyms, they're terrible.

The Holy Spirit has taught me that His word is WHOLE and I am not to reject any part of it.

RollTide21
Mar 24th 2011, 07:07 PM
The idea that God is intimately involved in our salvation is an encouragement the Apostles offer.Right. But...that is something that I've understood prior to these conversations on this board. I was basically saying that the debate on this subject didn't provide me with an extraordinary insight one way or the other.

I will say this about this forum, in general, since I am relatively new: I have grown in the knowledge of Scripture exponentially since becoming involved. I think it's been healthy for me to just get on here and dive into matters of the Faith. It's fun.

Slug1
Mar 24th 2011, 11:08 PM
try the Bible. :)You'll notice I wrote that back in 2006, back then I really did have a Bible :P and back then NOSAS is supported. Since then the Bible has continued to support NOSAS and if you read through the tread, you'll understand why scripture supports NOSAS.

keck553
Mar 24th 2011, 11:48 PM
I think everyone should work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

hearmenow
Mar 25th 2011, 05:32 AM
ACTS 5:1-11

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things


Would this not be an example of some one turning back on G_D and them loosing salvation?

If so would people DIE literally or just spiritually when the loose salvation?

Is this not also an example of G_D letting his children perish?

Also would not Judas be an example of G_D letting his children perish? Assuming we are all G_D’s children not just the saved.

Again I am just trying to understand and learn definitely not trying to correct or contradict anyone.

TEITZY
Mar 25th 2011, 11:00 AM
Would this not be an example of some one turning back on G_D and them loosing salvation?

If so would people DIE literally or just spiritually when the loose salvation?

Is this not also an example of G_D letting his children perish?

Also would not Judas be an example of G_D letting his children perish? Assuming we are all G_D’s children not just the saved.

Again I am just trying to understand and learn definitely not trying to correct or contradict anyone.


Peter said (1 Pet 4:17) judgment begins at the "house of God" (that's talking about believers). Paul said many of the believers at Corinth had died because of abuses at the Lord's Supper. Look at what he says in verse 32 specifically:

1 Cor 11:30-32 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

John while addressing believers says that there is a "sin leading to death" (1 John 5:16). 1 Cor 5:4-5 is likely another reference to a believer suffering physical death as a judgment for gross sin.

In these passages it's clear that believers are suffering PHYSICAL death due to disobedience to their Lord. There is no suggestion that they lost their salvation or were damned to hell and 1 Cor 11:32 states specifically that believers (even those the Lord choses to remove though physical death) will "not be condemned with the world".

As to the question of Judas, it is clear that he was NEVER saved to begin with and hence his title "son of perdition". Jesus said in John 13: 10-11:

“He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

Judas was never "clean" or saved like the other disciples.

Cheers
Leigh

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 01:09 AM
I think everyone should work out their salvation with fear and trembling.Oh, there is so much I'd like to say concerning this scripture.

I've always wondered, does "work out" divide and support scripturally with terms like... "run the race", "endure", "overcome"?? When reading this scripture (Philippians 2:12) and we read in context... we can add, "obedience" as well.

Or does "work out" mean... accept Christ then sit down at that starting line, Jesus is doing the run for us, enduring for us, and overcome for us and all we do is, "wait"?? If so, where does "fear" and "trembling" apply?

IMINXTC
Mar 26th 2011, 01:16 AM
In reference to the OP:

If anything, the endless debates, and in many cases, excellent scriptural discussions on the matter have served to strengthen my personal assurance of salvation and the security of all true believers.

LankyLee
Mar 26th 2011, 03:07 PM
Oh, there is so much I'd like to say concerning this scripture.

I've always wondered, does "work out" divide and support scripturally with terms like... "run the race", "endure", "overcome"?? When reading this scripture (Philippians 2:12) and we read in context... we can add, "obedience" as well.

Or does "work out" mean... accept Christ then sit down at that starting line, Jesus is doing the run for us, enduring for us, and overcome for us and all we do is, "wait"?? If so, where does "fear" and "trembling" apply?

Do you have a life? What I mean by this is we all have to go out to our jobs, be around our extended family members, go grocery shopping, be around our saved and un-saved friends. By being around them I mean also to interact with them. This is where our fruit of the Spirit will show or not show.

Fruit of the Spirit: Galatians 5:22-23
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Long-Suffering
5. Gentleness
6. Goodness
7. Faith
8. Meekness
9. Temperance
.....against such there is no law.

So you see as you live your life lead by the Spirit you will produce these in your life. As you produce this fruit, your life will be transformed into the likeness of Jesus Christ, and then yes you will be "doing" things different than before. The way you interact with the cash register at the store will be different.....etc., etc.
If you look at the list again you will notice all of these come from with in,....from the heart.
The fruit of the Spirit and what "some" call works are not the same thing.

and the proof, that Proves that statement is true is this: there are many who do many, many, many, great works but display very little fruit in their lives.
Yet these are usually the ones who point the finger at others to show how wrong the others are...ie the pharisees, the self righteous, the holier than thou.

We will be known by our fruit (look at the list again) not our works.
...although the fruit in our lives will change the way you go about your "daily life", led by the spirit.

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 03:14 PM
Do you have a life? What I mean by this is we all have to go out to our jobs, be around our extended family members, go grocery shopping, be around our saved and un-saved friends. By being around them I mean also to interact with them. This is where our fruit of the Spirit will show or not show.

Fruit of the Spirit: Galatians 5:22-23
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Long-Suffering
5. Gentleness
6. Goodness
7. Faith
8. Meekness
9. Temperance
.....against such there is no law.

So you see as you live your life lead by the Spirit you will produce these in your life. As you produce this fruit, your life will be transformed into his likeness, and then yes you will be "doing" things different than before. The way you interact with the cash register at the store will be different.....etc., etc.
If you look at the list again you will notice all of these come from with in,....from the heart.
The fruit of the Spirit and what "some" call works are not the same thing.

and the proof, that Proves that statement is true is this: there are many who do many, many, many, great works but display very little fruit in their lives.
Yet these are usually the ones who point the finger at others to show how wrong the others are...ie the pharisees, the self righteous, the holier than thou.

We will be known by our fruit (look at the list again) not our works.
...although the fruit in our lives will change the way you go about your "daily life", led by the spirit.I understand all you are saying... but the topic isn't fruit of the Spirit... it's OSAS vs NOSAS.

If the topic was God doing His work through us... fruit production, than the approach you are using, I'd also be aligned with. However, that is not the topic.

Believe me, we all have a life and in obedience our lives are given to God and in surrender, God is able to express Himself and shine His light through us the way He wants and if this means in Power of His might... so be it.

Since the topic isn't about this and is about OSAS and NOSAS lets bring it back to the discussion... when we STOP being obedient and God CAN'T do His work through us and can't shine His light through us and we STOP all work of God in our lives and we begin to work against God who was ONCE working in a mighty way through us but because of our willful rebellion due to whatever circumstance that upset us and is devouring us, we walked away and reject God ... WHAT THEN?

What then, especially if we die in this state of having fallen away from the walk we once shared in Christ and are in a state of rebellion and rejection???

Please, let's remain on topic.

LankyLee
Mar 26th 2011, 03:29 PM
I guess I always get the ones who believe if they don't see you "doing things", or you watch a show on TV they wouldn't watch, or you let a curse word slip out, that Jesus is going to say "I never knew you" to those.
And by those I mean born-again Christians.

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 03:35 PM
I guess I always get the ones who believe if they don't see you "doing things", or you watch a show on TV they wouldn't watch, or you let a curse word slip out, that Jesus is going to say "I never knew you" to those.
And by those I mean born-again Christians.Hooah... this is why the scriptures talk about repentance, forgiveness, restoration and warnings about running, enduring, overcoming and NOT being devoured. No need for any of this for followers of the OSAS doctrine.

LankyLee
Mar 26th 2011, 04:14 PM
Hooah... this is why the scriptures talk about repentance, forgiveness, restoration and warnings about running, enduring, overcoming and NOT being devoured. No need for any of this for followers of the OSAS doctrine.

aaah now I see it, as a beliver in the OSAS (me) doctrine you assume that I put no merit in repentance, forgiveness, restoration and warnings about running, enduring, overcoming, and NOT being devoured. But I assure you your assumptions are wrong and are probably wrong on many others who believe in OSAS.
We just don't believe you have to be re-restored after every sin, but we do believe you need to be forgiven of any un covered sin in your life. Repentance comes at conversion but also after un-covered sin is not dealt with and you continue in it for a while you turn from it and put it under the Blood.
repentance- yes
forgivness- yes
continue on in the race- yes
You don't need to get re-saved do you?....and re-Baptised also? ...please answer these two.
Grace is a gift from God that I did not earn and can not maintain with out his continual Grace. I can not boast.

for you to say no need for any of this to those who believe in OSAS, to me means, you feel you can work out your salvation.

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 04:43 PM
You don't need to get re-saved do you?....and re-Baptised also? ...please answer these two. NO, you don't nor does any "saved" Christian!!! That is the point. OSASers use the line... Born-Again-Again?? Re-Baptized? We've seen this allot on these boards. "How many times can a person be born-again?" The answer is ONCE. After that, it's about restoration when a Christian has fallen back into sin and walked separated from God for a time and God is rejected, if the work He will do through them is rejected, is they speak against God, curse at God and demand from God and until He answers, they want nothing to do with Him.

Any in the above situation can humble themselves, surrender their sinful selves back to God, repent, seek forgiveness and God will restore them... He is with full mercy and His love is boundless. We just have to do this because scripture is full of warnings TO DO this.

Scripture covers about restoration and if there is a NEED for God to put the fact that we NEED restoration, then we have to ask... WHY?

With the OSAS doctrine... there is NO WHY!! So then we can ask why, No Why... because once you are saved, it's always. No need to be restored, no need to run, no need to endure, no need to allow God to produce fruit through you for His glory, no need to HAVE overcome. It's done and finished with acceptance of Jesus and then just wait for the reward!

Then why did God waste His time informing us about restoration?

When you address this, you will see how the OSAS doctrine is false. If OSAS doctrine was not false, then there would be no reason for restoration, warnings that we can be devoured, to run, to endure, and in the end, HAVE overcome.

LankyLee
Mar 26th 2011, 05:21 PM
NO, you don't nor does any "saved" Christian!!! That is the point. OSASers use the line... Born-Again-Again?? Re-Baptized? We've seen this allot on these boards. "How many times can a person be born-again?" The answer is ONCE. After that, it's about restoration when a Christian has fallen back into sin and walked separated from God for a time and God is rejected, if the work He will do through them is rejected, is they speak against God, curse at God and demand from God and until He answers, they want nothing to do with Him.

Any in the above situation can humble themselves, surrender their sinful selves back to God, repent, seek forgiveness and God will restore them... He is with full mercy and His love is boundless. We just have to do this because scripture is full of warnings TO DO this.

Scripture covers about restoration and if there is a NEED for God to put the fact that we NEED restoration, then we have to ask... WHY?

With the OSAS doctrine... there is NO WHY!! So then we can ask why, No Why... because once you are saved, it's always. No need to be restored, no need to run, no need to endure, no need to allow God to produce fruit through you for His glory, no need to HAVE overcome. It's done and finished with acceptance of Jesus and then just wait for the reward!

Then why did God waste His time informing us about restoration?

When you address this, you will see how the OSAS doctrine is false. If OSAS doctrine was not false, then there would be no reason for restoration, warnings that we can be devoured, to run, to endure, and in the end, HAVE overcome.

the word restoration is not even in the Bible, but if it were, it would I guess mean to restore back to it's once original or better condition.
the word restore is in the Bible (four times in the New Testament), as in:

Gal 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
....which would help my case. would it not.

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 05:53 PM
....which would help my case. would it not.Explain then concerning the doctrine of OSAS and then let's see...

LankyLee
Mar 26th 2011, 06:28 PM
this man needed to be re-stored back to his former self of walking in the Spirit, for he was over-taken in a fault. He is a Christian who needs, yes Restoration. is he not? If he we not a Christian to begin with he would need Jesus, that fact that he needed to be restored means he was a Christian, if he were not you and me would not be able to re-store him, only God.
So this Christian brother has fallen in some sin. How can we re-store him? if he is lost we can not (but we would go about getting him saved). But if he is just in need of repair we can, by talking to him about it, praying with him, and helping him get back on track. So he is not in need of salvation, but yes restoration.
A saved Christian who needs a repair job.
not a lost person who never was saved.

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 07:10 PM
this man needed to be re-stored back to his former self of walking in the Spirit, for he was over-taken in a fault. He is a Christian who needs, yes Restoration. is he not? If he we not a Christian to begin with he would need Jesus, that fact that he needed to be restored means he was a Christian, if he were not you and me would not be able to re-store him, only God.
So this Christian brother has fallen in some sin. How can we re-store him? if he is lost we can not (but we would go about getting him saved). But if he is just in need of repair we can, by talking to him about it, praying with him, and helping him get back on track. So he is not in need of salvation, but yes restoration.
A saved Christian who needs a repair job.
not a lost person who never was saved.OK... if this person is saved as you admitted based on the scripture... why the effort (by you) to do all you just said to do... if they are saved? Why the effort to help them with a need to be "re-stored" if their salvation is secure?

They're already saved... should your efforts be directed toward those "not" saved? Or be distracted by those saved but walking away from Christ? OSAS... there is no harm in walking away from God and a need to be "re-stored"... correct??

If you don't do what you said to do or, the big OR they reject the help to set them straight and a saved person dies in this rebellion... what then, when they stand before Jesus?

notuptome
Mar 26th 2011, 07:45 PM
OK... if this person is saved as you admitted based on the scripture... why the effort (by you) to do all you just said to do... if they are saved? Why the effort to help them with a need to be "re-stored" if their salvation is secure?

They're already saved... should your efforts be directed toward those "not" saved? Or be distracted by those saved but walking away from Christ? OSAS... there is no harm in walking away from God and a need to be "re-stored"... correct??

If you don't do what you said to do or, the big OR they reject the help to set them straight and a saved person dies in this rebellion... what then, when they stand before Jesus?
Well if he was a Christian and lost his salvation there can be no restoration. Heb 6:4-6 The little truth that the working to keep their salvation crowd seems to forget.

The Christian must give account before Jesus of what he/she has done since salvation. The works not the Christian are put through the fire and the works that are burned perish but the Christian still enters into eternal life glorified with Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 07:49 PM
Well if he was a Christian and lost his salvation there can be no restoration. Heb 6:4-6 The little truth that the working to keep their salvation crowd seems to forget.

The Christian must give account before Jesus of what he/she has done since salvation. The works not the Christian are put through the fire and the works that are burned perish but the Christian still enters into eternal life glorified with Christ.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHeb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

So why this warning Roger? What does this all mean in relation to the difference between OSAS doctrine and NOSAS doctrine?? Why even be inspired to write this for all time, if salvation is secure?

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 07:55 PM
The Christian must give account before Jesus of what he/she has done since salvation. The works not the Christian are put through the fire and the works that are burned perish but the Christian still enters into eternal life glorified with Christ.This doesn't align with scripture such as John 15:2.

What is getting taken away isn't a person's works... what is getting taken away is the person because they DON'T work.

That said... let's not turn this to a fruit topic. The point is... to be on the branch, on must be saved and they can be taken off... thus salvation isn't secure.

notuptome
Mar 26th 2011, 08:02 PM
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

So why this warning Roger? What does this all mean in relation to the difference between OSAS doctrine and NOSAS doctrine??
The writer is posing an impossibility to make a point. What the writer is saying is that you cannot lose your salvation because if you could it would then be impossible to be restored as a second salvation would shame Christ.

Those who espouse NOSAS never really believe for a second that they will be the ones to actually lose their salvation. Paul said in Galatians that you would need to be bewitched to fall for such a thing. Having begun in the Spirit to suggest that you are now completed in the flesh is impossible.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 26th 2011, 08:10 PM
This doesn't align with scripture such as John 15:2.

What is getting taken away isn't a person's works... what is getting taken away is the person because they DON'T work.

That said... let's not turn this to a fruit topic. The point is... to be on the branch, on must be saved and they can be taken off... thus salvation isn't secure.
We been over this a number of times. You simply have an incorrect understanding of what Jesus is teaching to His Jewish brethren.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 08:31 PM
We been over this a number of times. You simply have an incorrect understanding of what Jesus is teaching to His Jewish brethren.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

:lol: OK dude... got'cha! When the scripture don't suit your doctrine... then it's a Gentile/Jew line from ya again.

Slug1
Mar 26th 2011, 08:33 PM
The writer is posing an impossibility to make a point. What the writer is saying is that you cannot lose your salvation because if you could it would then be impossible to be restored as a second salvation would shame Christ.
Can this statement be divided (or supported) with other scriptures?

OH... the scripture you're suddenly using for your point isn't for us... it's for the Jews and they're turning away from Jesus and returning to their "Law".

Anyway... unless of course, it supports your doctrine, then the Gentile/Jew line you always use... doesn't apply. You know... since this Hebrews scripture if it meant what you say it means, supported you. Then, the fact it's about Jew's, don't matter.

But the other scriptures, which are clear cut but don't support your doctrine... can't matter because it's a Gentile/Jew thing.. right?

Kinda like saying that Timothy was a pastor on one hand because it suited you and the next day, Timothy wasn't a pastor on the other hand because it didn't suit you??

steelcurtain76
Mar 26th 2011, 08:43 PM
I've never believed in OSAS. It's just plain unscriptural.

Butch5
Mar 26th 2011, 09:28 PM
The writer is posing an impossibility to make a point. What the writer is saying is that you cannot lose your salvation because if you could it would then be impossible to be restored as a second salvation would shame Christ.

Those who espouse NOSAS never really believe for a second that they will be the ones to actually lose their salvation. Paul said in Galatians that you would need to be bewitched to fall for such a thing. Having begun in the Spirit to suggest that you are now completed in the flesh is impossible.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

You've got that all out of context my friend. In Galatians Paul was speaking of the Mosaic Law, which is the same issue that he is dealing with in Hebrews. If they return to the Mosaic Law, there remains no other salvation for them. By returning to the Mosaic Law they would have shamed Christ, thus there is no more salvation. Paul is warning them that if they do return to the Mosaic Law they cannot return to Christ. He is not presenting and impossibility, there would be no need. If they couldn't lose their salvation there is no point in telling them if they could lose they couldn't get it back. What use is that.

notuptome
Mar 28th 2011, 01:07 PM
You've got that all out of context my friend. In Galatians Paul was speaking of the Mosaic Law, which is the same issue that he is dealing with in Hebrews. If they return to the Mosaic Law, there remains no other salvation for them. By returning to the Mosaic Law they would have shamed Christ, thus there is no more salvation. Paul is warning them that if they do return to the Mosaic Law they cannot return to Christ. He is not presenting and impossibility, there would be no need. If they couldn't lose their salvation there is no point in telling them if they could lose they couldn't get it back. What use is that.
It is one of three major interpretations of this passage. First is that it is teaching that Jewish people who professed to be believers in Christ but who stopped short of true faith in Christ after advancing to the threshold of salvation. Unable or unwilling to let go of the old beliefs. Second which is the one I have espoused is that it is hypothetical kind of like pigs flying. Posed to be so rediculous that no one could seriously question it. Third is it is a warning to some believers who had fallen into sin to such an extent as to shame Christ. These being disapproved would certainly lose their reward at the judgment seat of Christ.

It may be possible that Paul wrote Hebrews but it is not certain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 28th 2011, 01:15 PM
:lol: OK dude... got'cha! When the scripture don't suit your doctrine... then it's a Gentile/Jew line from ya again.
You cannot understand what is being taught if you do not understand who the audience was. It is not wise to build doctrine on scripture you do not adequately understand.

When you look at John 15 what is the difference between the "True Vine" and the "vine"? Is it important to distinguish between the two?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Mar 28th 2011, 01:22 PM
Can this statement be divided (or supported) with other scriptures?

OH... the scripture you're suddenly using for your point isn't for us... it's for the Jews and they're turning away from Jesus and returning to their "Law".

Anyway... unless of course, it supports your doctrine, then the Gentile/Jew line you always use... doesn't apply. You know... since this Hebrews scripture if it meant what you say it means, supported you. Then, the fact it's about Jew's, don't matter.

But the other scriptures, which are clear cut but don't support your doctrine... can't matter because it's a Gentile/Jew thing.. right?

Kinda like saying that Timothy was a pastor on one hand because it suited you and the next day, Timothy wasn't a pastor on the other hand because it didn't suit you??
I'll give you some simple verses on eternal security.
John 3:15-15, 36 & 10:27-30
Rom 8:35, 37-39
Eph 1:12-14 & 4:30
Phil 1:6
Heb 10:12-14
1 Pet 1:3-5

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 28th 2011, 02:43 PM
The writer is posing an impossibility to make a point. What the writer is saying is that you cannot lose your salvation because if you could it would then be impossible to be restored as a second salvation would shame Christ.

Let's look at this scripture again:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I was reading through all this last night and I was also reading through the study notes on the page concerning Hebrews 6:4-8. Verse 6 is the key as I understand because by the "action" of having ONCE walked with Christ as we understand is established in verses 4-5... NOW the action of "rejection" of Christ (after once walking with Him) has a result as we read in verse 6. Here are the notes for this v6:


Fallen away involves a sustained, committed rejection of Christ and a departure from the Christian community. To restore them again to repentance means to bring them once again to repent of their sins. This wording alone does not specify whether the earlier repentance was merely outward (cf. Luke 17:4), or whether it was genuine, heartfelt repentance that accompanied true saving faith (see note of Heb 6:4-8). The author is speaking in terms of what can be known from observing a person's behavior. Crucifying once again graphically portrays rejection of Jesus. Holding... up to contempt (Gk. paradeigmatizo) conveys the idea of a public, shameful display. The warning of vv. 4-8 is substantial: such a falling away treats God's own Son with such serious rejection that it is as if the person wanted again to put Christ on a cross; after such a departure there can be no return (through see note on v4).

I didn't agree with your interpretation and these notes help express why. You say a person cannot loose their salvation because then it would be impossible for them to repent. The scriptures meaning is about a person loosing their salvation because their rejection of Christ after once walking with Christ is so complete... their action of rejection is as if keeping Jesus crucified and they NEVER repent of their sinful rejection, they never humble themselves before God due to their hardened hearts.


You cannot understand what is being taught if you do not understand who the audience was. It is not wise to build doctrine on scripture you do not adequately understand.

When you look at John 15 what is the difference between the "True Vine" and the "vine"? Is it important to distinguish between the two?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I think you should be more clear... seems in all the many posts you are meaning, we have to agree with your understanding of the doctrine you follow... correct? I mean, you have used scriptures in support of your doctrine even though the "audience" of those scriptures were the Jews. Yet, when the scriptures DON'T support your doctrine, then you use lines once again that the audience of those scriptures aren't us (Gentiles) and thus have no meaning, or the meaning is wrong if we apply such scriptures to ourselves as Gentiles.

Roger... I've said it before... this is like a wave in an ocean. You even proved this in the other thread when you used Timothy in a position as a pastor because a few scriptures supported you. But then once we pointed out otherwise, suddenly you stated that Timothy wasn't a pastor. Thus the evidence of being like a wave on an ocean and as was pointed out... what DO YOU believe? Did you toss out scriptures that once was used to support your doctrine and your believe in that doctrine and then once you HAD TO either face the truth... instead you changed and now disregard the scriptures and Timothy goes from pastor to not a pastor?

Anyway... difference between the "True Vine" and the vine... is that in accordance to Roger's meaning or in accordance with God's meaning? v1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.



I'll give you some simple verses on eternal security.

John 3:15-15, 36 & 10:27-30
Rom 8:35, 37-39
Eph 1:12-14 & 4:30
Phil 1:6
Heb 10:12-14
1 Pet 1:3-5

For the cause of Christ
RogerMixed audience for these scriptures... wouldn't you honestly say?

LankyLee
Mar 28th 2011, 10:18 PM
Fall away is: fall back to the law, or fall to another gospel, or just tell you that this Christian thing is not for them. NOT a Christian brother who has committed some sin.
Remember the "footprints in the sand" story?
Fruit is not works.
Works are not fruit.

notuptome
Mar 28th 2011, 11:35 PM
Let's look at this scripture again:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I was reading through all this last night and I was also reading through the study notes on the page concerning Hebrews 6:4-8. Verse 6 is the key as I understand because by the "action" of having ONCE walked with Christ as we understand is established in verses 4-5... NOW the action of "rejection" of Christ (after once walking with Him) has a result as we read in verse 6. Here are the notes for this v6:
I didn't agree with your interpretation and these notes help express why. You say a person cannot loose their salvation because then it would be impossible for them to repent. The scriptures meaning is about a person loosing their salvation because their rejection of Christ after once walking with Christ is so complete... their action of rejection is as if keeping Jesus crucified and they NEVER repent of their sinful rejection, they never humble themselves before God due to their hardened hearts.
We should indeed look at the scripture. I don't know who authored the notes but they are of no real help. Impossible means unable to be performed. To be once enlightened is interesting. Once enlightened is once for all or what would be like uttermost enlightened. See it in 7:25 Now once enlightened and tasted the good word of God would indicate real genuine salvation. Then we get to vs 6 If they shall fall away. Well it was just stated that it is not possible for those who have been genuinely saved to fall away so this must refer to those who had not experienced genuine salvation. There really is no other viable option. Because if genuine believers were to fall away and then renew themselves to repentance it would be a shame to Christ. John makes it clear in his epistle that Christians sin and can be restored. 1 John 1:8-10 & 2:1-2

There is nothing in the passage about the degree of falling away. If these are apostate then they were not saved in the first place. They may have a detailed head knowledge of the teaching of Christ but they do not posess a heart knowledge. These at some point are so hardened to the gospel that God hardens their heart and they cannot come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Jesus said in John 3:19 that these turned away from the light and would not come to the light.

I think you should be more clear... seems in all the many posts you are meaning, we have to agree with your understanding of the doctrine you follow... correct? I mean, you have used scriptures in support of your doctrine even though the "audience" of those scriptures were the Jews. Yet, when the scriptures DON'T support your doctrine, then you use lines once again that the audience of those scriptures aren't us (Gentiles) and thus have no meaning, or the meaning is wrong if we apply such scriptures to ourselves as Gentiles.
Is your purpose to impune my character? It is not my doctrine it is biblical doctrine. I cannot help that the "many words of testimony" that are so dear to you I do not esteem to be of equal value to the word of God.

Roger... I've said it before... this is like a wave in an ocean. You even proved this in the other thread when you used Timothy in a position as a pastor because a few scriptures supported you. But then once we pointed out otherwise, suddenly you stated that Timothy wasn't a pastor. Thus the evidence of being like a wave on an ocean and as was pointed out... what DO YOU believe? Did you toss out scriptures that once was used to support your doctrine and your believe in that doctrine and then once you HAD TO either face the truth... instead you changed and now disregard the scriptures and Timothy goes from pastor to not a pastor?
Well I will not engage in personal attacks. Not that I am not tempted but it would not edify. If you wish to make a biblical argument make it. You opinion is not part of scripture. Even my opinion is not part of scripture.

Anyway... difference between the "True Vine" and the vine... is that in accordance to Roger's meaning or in accordance with God's meaning? v1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Good because Israel is also refered to as a vine in Isa 5:1-7 Israel is in contrast to Christ Who is the true vine. Jesus states in vs 6 that if a man is not saved he is cast forth as a branch and men gather them to be burned. A dead branch is cast forth while those who are saved are living branches and produce the expected fruit.

Mixed audience for these scriptures... wouldn't you honestly say?
More likely it shows that the message was declared with consistency to all audiences. Multiple speakers to multiple audiences makes a very strong argument that we are to get this message. You had a thread on things being repeated for emphasis didn't you?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Butch5
Mar 29th 2011, 12:20 PM
Fall away is: fall back to the law, or fall to another gospel, or just tell you that this Christian thing is not for them. NOT a Christian brother who has committed some sin.
Remember the "footprints in the sand" story?
Fruit is not works.
Works are not fruit.

What exactly then is fruit?

Slug1
Mar 29th 2011, 03:13 PM
Fruit is not works.
Works are not fruit.I will say that James set it straight in chapter 2 just what faith, works, and ultimately.... fruit is. For more about fruit... John 15 is a great place for understanding of God's meaning. We ARE to do works but this is not to find favor with God, to secure anything in Christ... fruit is the production that God DOES THROUGH US.

We all just need to understand that once we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, not only will He work IN US to make change and renew our minds/change our heart but He will also continue to do His Father's work... THROUGH us! This is fruit and it can only be produced as we obediently serve Him and do what He want's us to do. When we do what WE WANT to do for God... we are producing OUR fruit (dead fruit) and this does not glorify God at all. We are also limited to our limitations in doing this selfish work in the Kingdom of God. I say selfish because while we do what WE WANT to do, God CAN'T do what He wants to do through us... thus our selfishnes. All we need to do is surrender to God, be a servant and allow Him to do what He wants us to do.

Then the fruit is of God, He is glorified.

Anyway... I do agree that falling away back into the Law is a form of falling away but not the only way to fall away. Going back to the world, the sex, drugs, alcohol, money etc... nothing to do with the Law and following the Law, but still... a Christian who has a bad situation in their life and satan overcomes them and they blame God for not helping them and they turn away from their faith in God, reject God and rebel against God until their death... they fell away from God. They were devoured by satan... thus the clear warning in the Bible about how satan is prowling around looking for those he can devour.

I'm not talking about someone who just came to Christ either... this stuff happens in the Body of Christ. People serving God for several years in mighty and even miraculous ways and then a tragic event happens and they deal with it in the flesh and not through Christ on a spiritual level. Dealing with this in the flesh weakens a person and satan continues to strike because the person is not utilizing means that God has provided... they fall, turn away from God and go back to the world.

If we couldn't be devoured... no need to warn us of this fact. We also would not need a means to combat satan so he can't devour us... there would be no need for understanding of what the Armor of God is, the Sword of the Spirit is and the purpose and power of Intercession prayer compounded in authority through fasting as Jesus would lead us to work/fight spiritually against satan. We wouldn't need ANY OF this if salvation is secure and we could not be devoured by satan.

LankyLee
Mar 29th 2011, 05:25 PM
What exactly then is fruit?

Galations 5:22-23: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Slug1
Mar 29th 2011, 08:26 PM
Galations 5:22-23: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.Amen... this is the "fruit" of the Holy Spirit as God works inside of us. Once that work has reached a point that God can begin to do HIS WORK through us... then fruitful produce is achieved by God, through servants... for His glory.

Fruit has a few flavors.

Once Jesus has done major change in us (renewed mind/changed heart) and the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in us (what you posted)... then He will do His work in the world around us and to the people around us when He uses us in mighty and miraculous ways. Then we are pruned so God can do MORE work through us to the world and people around us... all the while, He is glorifying Himself though us.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2011, 09:25 PM
Amen... this is the "fruit" of the Holy Spirit as God works inside of us. Once that work has reached a point that God can begin to do HIS WORK through us... then fruitful produce is achieved by God, through servants... for His glory.

Fruit has a few flavors.

Once Jesus has done major change in us (renewed mind/changed heart) and the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in us (what you posted)... then He will do His work in the world around us and to the people around us when He uses us in mighty and miraculous ways. Then we are pruned so God can do MORE work through us to the world and people around us... all the while, He is glorifying Himself though us.
Gal 5:22-23 describes the fruit. What you have described is not fruit but works. Men can do works apart from the Holy Spirit even miracles but only God can produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a man.

Demons speak in tongues and demons worship God but they do not do this by the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 29th 2011, 09:27 PM
Gal 5:22-23 describes the fruit. What you have described is not fruit but works. Men can do works apart from the Holy Spirit even miracles but only God can produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a man.

Demons speak in tongues and demons worship God but they do not do this by the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWe know this Roger... thank you for continuing to point this out. You are a master of reminding us. Thanks dude!

What God does THROUGH us is fruit also... but you ALWAYS twist this up. For whatever the reason, there is no reasoning with you and any work that God does through a person, you say that they are WORKING for there salvation to twist up the meaning of scripture.

God does HIS WORK through us... this produces fruit!!


Demons speak in tongues and demons worship God but they do not do this by the Holy Spirit.

Due to my experience in deliverance ministry... I've heard demons do this actually. One did the worshiping in Latin too (not tongues), cept it was to satan since a person in the ministry speaks Latin themselves and informed us of what was being spoken.

Butch5
Mar 29th 2011, 09:34 PM
Galations 5:22-23: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Aren't they things you do?

notuptome
Mar 29th 2011, 09:42 PM
We know this Roger... thank you for continuing to point this out. You are a master of reminding us. Thanks dude!

What God does THROUGH us is fruit also... but you ALWAYS twist this up.

Due to my experience in deliverance ministry... I've heard demons do this actually. One did the worshiping in Latin too (not tongues), cept it was to satan since a person in the ministry speaks Latin themselves and informed us of what was being spoken.
Eph 2:10 explains works. You always want to combine things that are similar but need to remain distinct from one another. Fruit of the Holy Spirit is wrought in the heart and is a witness of His presence and our salvation. This fruit is not something we do but we are. Works we do because Christ created us, in the act of saving us and making us new creatures, to do them especially for us to be witnesses of the new birth we experience in Christ.

I'm not twisting but straightening out or combing out the kinks.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 29th 2011, 09:51 PM
Eph 2:10 explains works. You always want to combine things that are similar but need to remain distinct from one another. Fruit of the Holy Spirit is wrought in the heart and is a witness of His presence and our salvation. This fruit is not something we do but we are. Works we do because Christ created us, in the act of saving us and making us new creatures, to do them especially for us to be witnesses of the new birth we experience in Christ.

I'm not twisting but straightening out or combing out the kinks.

For the cause of Christ
RogerYes... I understand all this. Now... what God does with the FAITH we have... these works that HE DOES through us so that the faith we have isn't dead. God is able to do these works through us by our faith, by our obedience, by our service.

Even Jesus did works of His Father while He was flesh... we do the same today and Jesus tells us that the work done through us, will be greater.

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-26679c)] anything in My name, I will do it.

These are the "works" that God will do THROUGH US... we don't do them... GOD DOES them through us.

Since you mentioned scripture: Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Hooah... now we just need to step out in faith and trust in God to do those prepared works through us so the fruit is produced and the world and people around us are touched by God working those good works as He is glorified.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2011, 10:23 PM
Yes... I understand all this. Now... what God does with the FAITH we have... these works that HE DOES through us so that the faith we have isn't dead. God is able to do these works through us by our faith, by our obedience, by our service.
If we received our faith from hearing Gods word how could it be dead? It is not our anything it is all Him. All you can do is yield yourself to Christ.

Even Jesus did works of His Father while He was flesh... we do the same today and Jesus tells us that the work done through us, will be greater.
Did Jesus work by faith or by first hand knowledge? Thomas saw and believed but Jesus said blessed are those who having not seen believe.

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-26679c)] anything in My name, I will do it.

These are the "works" that God will do THROUGH US... we don't do them... GOD DOES them through us.

Since you mentioned scripture: Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Hooah... now we just need to step out in faith and trust in God to do those prepared works through us so the fruit is produced and the world and people around us are touched by God working those good works as He is glorified.
The work you can do is be a witness of the saving grace of God. A lot of what Jesus did you cannot do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 29th 2011, 10:27 PM
If we received our faith from hearing Gods word how could it be dead? It is not our anything it is all Him. All you can do is yield yourself to Christ. Hooah


Did Jesus work by faith or by first hand knowledge? Thomas saw and believed but Jesus said blessed are those who having not seen believe.Hooah


The work you can do is be a witness of the saving grace of God. A lot of what Jesus did you cannot do.
Hooah

All you said doesn't change the fact that our faith without works... is dead. Scripture is crystal clear on this.

Remember that thread I started about scripture driving a point home by repeating a fact over and over... this fact is one of them. You can twist this any way you want but God is clear. I'll just pull out the points, all the rest of the scripture in context explains it and makes it clear:

James 2:14-26 v14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

v17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

v20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

v26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

notuptome
Mar 29th 2011, 10:38 PM
Hooah

Hooah

Hooah

All you said doesn't change the fact that our faith without works... is dead. Scripture is crystal clear on this.

Remember that thread I started about scripture driving a point home by repeating a fact over and over... this fact is one of them. You can twist this any way you want but God is clear. I'll just pull out the points, all the rest of the scripture in context explains it and makes it clear:

James 2:14-26 v14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

v17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

v20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

v26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
As long as we are careful not to make works produce faith. He who works alot may not be more faithful than a man whose works are seen only by the Lord. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and not by doing works.

A missions board who feeds and clothes the poor but fails to tell how to obtain eternal life does good works before men but becomes useless to God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 29th 2011, 10:44 PM
As long as we are careful not to make works produce faith. He who works alot may not be more faithful than a man whose works are seen only by the Lord. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and not by doing works.

A missions board who feeds and clothes the poor but fails to tell how to obtain eternal life does good works before men but becomes useless to God.

For the cause of Christ
RogerHooah !

I've never said that works produces faith. Those who do the work of God according to His will leads God to then prune us, so we can do greater works. Our faith and trust in God is strengthened (not produced) but the point of the work God does through us is to produce fruit that GLORIFIES Him.

mattlad22
Mar 29th 2011, 10:50 PM
so.

Faith and works= you believe whole heartly in the Lord which in doing so you follow the Word, so by following the Word, you do the works asked and by doing the works asked in the Word you produce fruit, what is fruit for God?
another servant.
cycle repeats itself.
fruit is made and more fruit is made and more fruit is made and then when the harvest comes, its all collected up.

But if your a servant and you dont do any works (so you know Jesus is Christ but you dont follow the Word) so you produce no fruit...are you really a servant?

Am i on track?

notuptome
Mar 29th 2011, 11:20 PM
Hooah !

I've never said that works produces faith. Those who do the work of God according to His will leads God to then prune us, so we can do greater works. Our faith and trust in God is strengthened (not produced) but the point of the work God does through us is to produce fruit that GLORIFIES Him.
I thought that the Holy Spirit produced the fruit in the heart back in Galatians? Did works replace the Holy Spirit?

Heb 12:11 Chastening produces fruit.

I just don't understand your fruit thing. I don't see works as a fruit of the Holy Spirit. I don't see works as producing fruit that the Holy Spirit produces. Works are works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 29th 2011, 11:44 PM
I thought that the Holy Spirit produced the fruit in the heart back in Galatians? Did works replace the Holy Spirit?

Heb 12:11 Chastening produces fruit.

I just don't understand your fruit thing. I don't see works as a fruit of the Holy Spirit. I don't see works as producing fruit that the Holy Spirit produces. Works are works.

For the cause of Christ
RogerI understand what ya said... however, I don't understand how with all the scriptures presented or at least mentioned (ie. John 15)... you state and ask what you do.

I really don't Roger. Even Jesus said that He does His Father's work... we are to do this also. Not the same as He did... greater things. Jesus stated this and it's very point blank and clean in scripture.

notuptome
Mar 30th 2011, 12:05 AM
I understand what ya said... however, I don't understand how with all the scriptures presented or at least mentioned (ie. John 15)... you state and ask what you do.

I really don't Roger. Even Jesus said that He does His Father's work... we are to do this also. Not the same as He did... greater things. Jesus stated this and it's very point blank and clean in scripture.
It's not really all that difficult. Ours is greater because we have never seen God face to face. Christ was with the Father. We see only through the eye of faith. The miracles that Jesus did you cannot do nor can you do greater miracles. You cannot see into the heart of a man and know his thoughts. You cannot know if a mans profession of faith is genuine. You can only trust Gods word and live accordingly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Mar 30th 2011, 12:09 AM
It's not really all that difficult. Ours is greater because we have never seen God face to face. Christ was with the Father. We see only through the eye of faith. The miracles that Jesus did you cannot do nor can you do greater miracles. You cannot see into the heart of a man and know his thoughts. You cannot know if a mans profession of faith is genuine. You can only trust Gods word and live accordingly.

For the cause of Christ
RogerJesus didn't say we'd do greater miracles, only greater works :P

Why do you seem to always associate "works" with miracles? :lol:

hearmenow
Mar 31st 2011, 06:43 AM
King James Version Matthew 12
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


This is one reason this subject means a lot to me. I was baptised as a baby in Catholic religion and then again in late twenties in name of Jesus Christ at Penicostal church. Since then I have been down some very bad roads I.E. Satanism Islam Witcin ect. I know I have had to Blasphemy so am I now doomed?

Also I was talking to a friend she is helping me a lot and she asked me if I had been down Romans road and I had to ask her what that was and she took me down Romans road.

Since I have Blasphemy the Holy Spirt and had never done Romans road do I need rebaptised? Was I ever saved? Do I need to be resaved? Is it too late because blasphemy of Holy Ghost not forgiven?

This is all realy Confusing to me I have already been told I can not be a Christian because I am thinking of leaving wife, But wouldn't that go against OSAS I mean make mistake and can not be Christian?

I hope some one can help I do want to find my way to the LORD.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2011, 12:45 PM
King James Version Matthew 12
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


This is one reason this subject means a lot to me. I was baptised as a baby in Catholic religion and then again in late twenties in name of Jesus Christ at Penicostal church. Since then I have been down some very bad roads I.E. Satanism Islam Witcin ect. I know I have had to Blasphemy so am I now doomed?

Also I was talking to a friend she is helping me a lot and she asked me if I had been down Romans road and I had to ask her what that was and she took me down Romans road.

Since I have Blasphemy the Holy Spirt and had never done Romans road do I need rebaptised? Was I ever saved? Do I need to be resaved? Is it too late because blasphemy of Holy Ghost not forgiven?

This is all realy Confusing to me I have already been told I can not be a Christian because I am thinking of leaving wife, But wouldn't that go against OSAS I mean make mistake and can not be Christian?

I hope some one can help I do want to find my way to the LORD.Define blasphemy and/or if you want, describe your acts that you feel were blasphemous.

The Bible is very specific about what is and what isn't the UNforgivable sin. You ask, "Is it too late because blasphemy of the Holy Ghost not forgiven?" No, that sin is not but the thing is... not many understand just what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit really is.

Here's it is in a nutshell... the point being, the Holy Spirit MUST manifest and do a miracle and then you must willfully blame the miracle as an act of satan thus giving satan the glory of God's miracle. You must say the source of the miracle is not God but satan when it's is TRULY the Holy Spirit of God. Basically God is manifesting in a miraculous way and you credit it as an act of satan.

Practicing witchcraft, denying Christ, calling Christ all sorts of names and using any and all hand and arm signals to make your words have more meaning... all meaningless the moment a person repents and seeks Christ as their Savior.

Mt 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

There are the scriptures... go to Matthew 12 and read all the context. Jesus removed a demon from a man and this healed the man who was physically afflicted by that demon. This is a miracle of God, the Holy Spirit empowering Jesus the exact same way that we are empowered today to remove demons from people and they are healed of the affliction that demon was doing. Any miracle Jesus did, any miracle the Apostles did, any miracle that ANY disciple did... all of them had the exact same Holy Spirit that all in the Body of Christ have today.

So what happened? The Pharisee's "heard" of this miracle and blamed the source of Jesus miraculous healing to satan... they gave credit to and thus the glory of that miracle to satan. They committed blasphemy and they didn't even SEE IT... all they did was hear about the miracle and basically said... (paraphrase) NOPE, not God, satan gave Jesus the empowerment to do that miracle.

So, a person must do that to have done the UNforgivable form of blasphemy to NEVER be forgiven.

LankyLee
Mar 31st 2011, 08:53 PM
King James Version Matthew 12
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


This is one reason this subject means a lot to me. I was baptised as a baby in Catholic religion and then again in late twenties in name of Jesus Christ at Penicostal church. Since then I have been down some very bad roads I.E. Satanism Islam Witcin ect. I know I have had to Blasphemy so am I now doomed?

Also I was talking to a friend she is helping me a lot and she asked me if I had been down Romans road and I had to ask her what that was and she took me down Romans road.

Since I have Blasphemy the Holy Spirt and had never done Romans road do I need rebaptised? Was I ever saved? Do I need to be resaved? Is it too late because blasphemy of Holy Ghost not forgiven?

This is all realy Confusing to me I have already been told I can not be a Christian because I am thinking of leaving wife, But wouldn't that go against OSAS I mean make mistake and can not be Christian?

I hope some one can help I do want to find my way to the LORD.

The fact that you are concerned about it right now means you have not "crossed the line" God brought you back for a reason and the fact you have a repentant heart means you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit where you cannot be saved. I would renounce all you have done in the name of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that is convicting you of this sin will fill your heart once again. If you had crossed the line you would not be feeling the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart. Which you do.
Pray now for forgiveness and you will feel the weight of it drop off of you as God, who loves you, showers you with his love. Pray from the heart and don't worry if you don't know exactly what to say, God knows your heart, and is holding out his hand. Just reach for it.

RollTide21
Mar 31st 2011, 09:40 PM
OK... if this person is saved as you admitted based on the scripture... why the effort (by you) to do all you just said to do... if they are saved? Why the effort to help them with a need to be "re-stored" if their salvation is secure?

They're already saved... should your efforts be directed toward those "not" saved? Or be distracted by those saved but walking away from Christ? OSAS... there is no harm in walking away from God and a need to be "re-stored"... correct??

If you don't do what you said to do or, the big OR they reject the help to set them straight and a saved person dies in this rebellion... what then, when they stand before Jesus?A person can't be saved...and be indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God...and it not be important to be right with God. They just can't NOT have that motivation. We can put it out of our minds, but, eventually, God is going to get us if we have truly accepted Him and are falling victim to weakness. That's important to note: WEAKNESS. That is what a true Christian living with sin is experiencing: weakness. This is because the Holy Spirit provides us with the motivation to be pleasing to God, but, sometimes, we are too weak in the flesh.

These questions about what, under OSAS, is the point of restoration, if it doesn't matter for salvation, are completely discounting the Holy Spirit. God doesn't allow those who have submitted to Him to be OK in sin. He convicts, chastises and, with Grace, restores us. Our motivation is always to be restored because the Holy Spirit is within us guiding our conscience.

Slug1
Mar 31st 2011, 09:51 PM
A person can't be saved...and be indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God...and it not be important to be right with God. They just can't NOT have that motivation. We can put it out of our minds, but, eventually, God is going to get us if we have truly accepted Him and are falling victim to weakness. That's important to note: WEAKNESS. That is what a true Christian living with sin is experiencing: weakness. This is because the Holy Spirit provides us with the motivation to be pleasing to God, but, sometimes, we are too weak in the flesh. Yes, I lived this for many years... despite my salvation I wandered away and desired my sin instead. Should I have died duing this falling away, I firmly believe the falling would have ended in a lake of fire.


These questions about what, under OSAS, is the point of restoration, if it doesn't matter for salvation, are completely discounting the Holy Spirit. God doesn't allow those who have submitted to Him to be OK in sin. He convicts, chastises and, with Grace, restores us. Our motivation is always to be restored because the Holy Spirit is within us guiding our conscience.Agreed... but not all listen to the Holy Spirit. So we have it in black and white to read as well.

-SEEKING-
Mar 31st 2011, 09:54 PM
Have once saved always saved threads ever lead you to change your mind?

Not really. But discussions with other Christians have.

RollTide21
Mar 31st 2011, 10:01 PM
Yes, I lived this for many years... despite my salvation I wandered away and desired my sin instead. Should I have died duing this falling away, I firmly believe the falling would have ended in a lake of fire.If the Holy Spirit was convicting you during that time to be restored, how could Christ have said "I don't know you" at judgement? He DID know you. He was pleading with you to come back home...and you did, praise God. By His Grace, He brought you back. And guess what? Now you have that testimony of that Grace to others. Man...your falling away wasn't a willful thumbing of the nose at Christ. If you were truly saved, what you did was out of weakness and/or confusion. You didn't know how to trust Him. It happens to us. We're all a bunch of Peters until God steps in and MAKES us what we are.


Agreed... but not all listen to the Holy Spirit. So we have it in black and white to read as well. Those who know the Holy Spirit intimately enough to surrender their very lives to Him will eventually listen to Him. God doesn't just let us go. You are living proof!!!

notuptome
Mar 31st 2011, 10:01 PM
Yes, I lived this for many years... despite my salvation I wandered away and desired my sin instead. Should I have died duing this falling away, I firmly believe the falling would have ended in a lake of fire.
You have an incorrect understanding of salvation. Heb 6:4-6 precludes any possibility of restoration if a saved person could lose his/her salvation. How could anyone have peace with that awful possibility hanging over their heads? That would be no better than the person who thinks he/she can do enough good to be accepted by God. Never certain they have attained sufficient works to compensate for their sins.

Agreed... but not all listen to the Holy Spirit. So we have it in black and white to read as well.
Jesus said My sheep hear My voice so if they ain't hearing perhaps they are not sheep but goats. I do think only God knows with certainity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

IMINXTC
Mar 31st 2011, 10:03 PM
So pertinent. If one could lose his/her salvation, how does one get it back?

notuptome
Mar 31st 2011, 10:42 PM
So pertinent. If one could lose his/her salvation, how does one get it back?
Hebrews 6:6 would indicate it cannot be done. Which is why it cannot be lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

IMINXTC
Mar 31st 2011, 11:47 PM
So, the letter addresses the differences between true and false salvation? They who fall away, having once been saved, have no hope of salvation (ever)?

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition: but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Heb 10:39

If that initial act of faith is not a true one we will draw back to perdition. The Hebrew, as an example, was in danger of turning from the cross, back to the law which could not save him.

So, either one believed unto salvation or one didn't.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 03:06 AM
You have an incorrect understanding of salvation. Heb 6:4-6 precludes any possibility of restoration if a saved person could lose his/her salvation. How could anyone have peace with that awful possibility hanging over their heads? That would be no better than the person who thinks he/she can do enough good to be accepted by God. Never certain they have attained sufficient works to compensate for their sins. Well, multiple theologists who were selected to write up those notes about that scripture(s) have a different interpretation. You don't agree for your reasons... I only can respect your opinion, I don't have to agree with it.


Jesus said My sheep hear My voice so if they ain't hearing perhaps they are not sheep but goats. I do think only God knows with certainity.
Hearing and listening are WAY two different things.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 03:11 AM
If the Holy Spirit was convicting you during that time to be restored, how could Christ have said "I don't know you" at judgement? He DID know you. He was pleading with you to come back home...and you did, praise God. By His Grace, He brought you back. And guess what? Now you have that testimony of that Grace to others. Man...your falling away wasn't a willful thumbing of the nose at Christ. If you were truly saved, what you did was out of weakness and/or confusion. You didn't know how to trust Him. It happens to us. We're all a bunch of Peters until God steps in and MAKES us what we are. Then explain to me how God don't remember past sins once we are forgiven?


Those who know the Holy Spirit intimately enough to surrender their very lives to Him will eventually listen to Him. God doesn't just let us go. You are living proof!!!Of His grace and mercy. There is nothing in the Bible that says God will not take us back... if He wouldn't take us back then there would be no need for repentance and restoration. I humbled myself, I repented and admitted I walked away and enjoyed my time away from Him when I was back in the world, I asked for forgiveness and I was forgiven and He has been guiding me ever since. I am used in ways that bust me down most times and there is nothing I can do BUT praise and worship Him.

If I didn't humble myself AFTER I fell away, surrendered myself back into His hand, confessed the fact I fell away and enjoyed that sin, repented of it, sought forgiveness and received it... if I had died in that fallen state, then... like I said, I'd of kept on falling right into fire in the end.

hearmenow
Apr 1st 2011, 07:25 AM
I am totaly different on this whole subject I need a catagory of not yet sure and trying to figure it out. However this thread is helping a lot.

LankyLee
Apr 1st 2011, 10:19 AM
Then explain to me how God don't remember past sins once we are forgiven?

Of His grace and mercy. There is nothing in the Bible that says God will not take us back... if He wouldn't take us back then there would be no need for repentance and restoration. I humbled myself, I repented and admitted I walked away and enjoyed my time away from Him when I was back in the world, I asked for forgiveness and I was forgiven and He has been guiding me ever since. I am used in ways that bust me down most times and there is nothing I can do BUT praise and worship Him.

If I didn't humble myself AFTER I fell away, surrendered myself back into His hand, confessed the fact I fell away and enjoyed that sin, repented of it, sought forgiveness and received it... if I had died in that fallen state, then... like I said, I'd of kept on falling right into fire in the end.

You Sir are teaching a falsehood and need to check your Ego at the door.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 12:53 PM
So, the letter addresses the differences between true and false salvation? They who fall away, having once been saved, have no hope of salvation (ever)?
The writer has framed his argument in the context of an impossibility. He is saying it is impossible in the first place to be saved and lose it. However if we speculate that it could be done then it stands to reason that once lost it can never be regained. The element of those who had knowledge of the gospel but did not take it into their heart choosing to cling to the old law and its sacrifices is certainly present in the passage as well as the whole book of Hebrews.


"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition: but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Heb 10:39

If that initial act of faith is not a true one we will draw back to perdition. The Hebrew, as an example, was in danger of turning from the cross, back to the law which could not save him.

So, either one believed unto salvation or one didn't.
Yes and aparently some were right at the brink and turned back. Jesus in John 3:19 gives the reason they turned back and were lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 01:12 PM
Well, multiple theologists who were selected to write up those notes about that scripture(s) have a different interpretation. You don't agree for your reasons... I only can respect your opinion, I don't have to agree with it.
Well you can easily find someone to write a book to support just about any doctrine these days. Paul said it would be so. 2 Tim 4:3-4 Paul also said we are to rightly divide the word of God that we be not ashamed. 2 Tim 2:15 We are to have the Holy Spirit teach us.

Hearing and listening are WAY two different things.
To men perhaps yet when Jesus says it the meaning is specific and certain. Where in scripture do we find an example of a person getting saved, losing it and getting resaved? Tons of false professors and the prodigal son is a good example of restoration but he was never not his fathers son. Where are you hanging you hat? Where do your "theologists" hang their hat on this point?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 01:29 PM
Well you can easily find someone to write a book to support just about any doctrine these days. Paul said it would be so. 2 Tim 4:3-4 Paul also said we are to rightly divide the word of God that we be not ashamed. 2 Tim 2:15 We are to have the Holy Spirit teach us.

To men perhaps yet when Jesus says it the meaning is specific and certain. Where in scripture do we find an example of a person getting saved, losing it and getting resaved? Tons of false professors and the prodigal son is a good example of restoration but he was never not his fathers son. Where are you hanging you hat? Where do your "theologists" hang their hat on this point?

For the cause of Christ
RogerWe can play this game all day Roger... where in scripture do we have an example of any disciple of God NOT being able to do God's will in any miraculous way?

You'll defend your doctrine to the death yet not anywhere in the Bible is there an example of a disciple moved by God to do a miracle and they can't do it according to the doctrine you follow.

Out there in the world, there are Christians doing miracles and also out there in the world are Christians being devoured by the enemy and falling away from God. So despite your interpretation... what you say CAN'T happen, IS happening.

You just turn a blind eye to this because your doctrine has your eyes only on... IT.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 01:35 PM
You Sir are teaching a falsehood and need to check your Ego at the door.I had to surrender ego about 5 years ago when I began to humble myself to God... my ego was an element within me that kept me in sin and my ego was what also helped enabled the enemy to have his way with me as I was being devoured and once I surrendered that ego to God, He was able to begin to pull me out of satan's mouth. With that ego, I did it my way and FAILED.

I'll also say this... in my experience of being so open and honest and transparent of my struggles with sin and how through God, He has led me to overcome and be healed of sin... this seems to offend alot of people in the Body of Christ.

Give testimony of God doing a miracle... some Christians are offended. Explain how God pulled me from the lions mouth... some Christians are offended.

When my ego was in full effect back then... I WAS OFFENDED when other Christians gave testimony of the way God led them out of the lions mouth, of when God was doing miracles in their lives or using them to do miracles in the lives of others. I was the one accusing THEM of being prideful, false, and full of their own ego. That was about 5+ years ago, so it was not to long ago I was in these threads accusing others back then.

Once I humbled myself to God... this was also just ONE of the sins He clearly pointed out to me that I had to repent of.

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 02:03 PM
Then explain to me how God don't remember past sins once we are forgiven?Not sure what you mean.


Of His grace and mercy. There is nothing in the Bible that says God will not take us back... if He wouldn't take us back then there would be no need for repentance and restoration. I humbled myself, I repented and admitted I walked away and enjoyed my time away from Him when I was back in the world, I asked for forgiveness and I was forgiven and He has been guiding me ever since. I am used in ways that bust me down most times and there is nothing I can do BUT praise and worship Him.Why did you come back to Him?

If I didn't humble myself AFTER I fell away, surrendered myself back into His hand, confessed the fact I fell away and enjoyed that sin, repented of it, sought forgiveness and received it... if I had died in that fallen state, then... like I said, I'd of kept on falling right into fire in the end.Why did you come back to Him?

The problem with both of these statements is that you insist that it was all YOU who did this. How can you praise God for His Grace and Mercy if it was all up to you to buckle down and "get it right"? We fall because of our own fleshly weakness. We don't overcome our own weaknesses when we are restored. We are restored through the Holy Spirit by the Grace of the One who saved us in the first place.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 02:13 PM
Not sure what you mean.

Why did you come back to Him?
Why did you come back to Him?

The problem with both of these statements is that you insist that it was all YOU who did this. How can you praise God for His Grace and Mercy if it was all up to you to buckle down and "get it right"? We fall because of our own fleshly weakness. We don't overcome our own weaknesses when we are restored. We are restored through the Holy Spirit by the Grace of the One who saved us in the first place.Yes... I've said this multiple times.

As for the Why?

I was wrong in turning away from God and the fall began and wouldn't end. Till I turned back to face Him and surrendered myself back into his hand.

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 02:14 PM
Yes... I've said this multiple times.

As for the Why?

I was wrong in turning away from God and the fall began and wouldn't end. Till I turned back to face Him and surrendered myself back into his hand.What I mean is...what caused you to ultimately decide to return to Christ? What was your motivation?

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 02:16 PM
What I mean is...what caused you to ultimately decide to return to Christ? What was your motivation?As simple as this is to say... I was wrong and I was tired of my error. I knew it would lead to my final death due to my rebellion against God and I simply surrendered back. I was having my eyes opened to doctrine of man and how this was being used by satan as well. I can thank some members and one specifically, of this board for that, back in 05.

I missed Christ in my life... I knew He was calling me back but the voice of the world was much louder and the world satisfied my flesh.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 02:26 PM
As simple as this is to say... I was wrong and I was tired of my error. I knew it would lead to my final death due to my rebellion against God and I simply surrendered back.

I missed Christ in my life... I knew He was calling me back but the voice of the world was much louder and the world satisfied my flesh.

I'll be straight up also... I was hearing Christ, even felt the conviction upon me by the Holy Spirit but I wasn't listening, only hearing. I was listening to satan.

I also had this doctrine up my sleeve way back then that covered me and this was one of the vehicles that satan used to get me to listen to him and for me not to worry about my turning back into the world and fall away from God. You see, this OSAS doctrine told me I had nothing to fear from this rebellion, I was saved and that was ALL THAT MATTERED. I was still in God's hand and I could do this worldly living and satisfying of my flesh and I'd still live eternally with God when I died. Even if I died in this present rebellion.

I knew I was wrong, I even know the doctrine was wrong but like I said, I was hearing but not LISTENING to God. I was only listening to satan and doctrines of man. My ego back then enabled me to defend the OSAS doctrine even when I knew deep in my heart... the part that was trying to listen to God but I ignored Him... only heard Him but didn't want to listen... I'd rather hold to doctrine and not God's truth.

Anyway... I've lived it, experienced it and now I testify of all that God has done in my life and what He's doing now in my life or to others through my life and me. Some don't like it, I sure didn't back then when people testified to me. I felt, offended... now I know why I felt offended and so, I understand why others feel their offense of testimony I give of God's work in my life and their offense has no effect on me. Just like my offense had no effect on those who were testifying to me way back then.

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 03:52 PM
As simple as this is to say... I was wrong and I was tired of my error. I knew it would lead to my final death due to my rebellion against God and I simply surrendered back. I was having my eyes opened to doctrine of man and how this was being used by satan as well. I can thank some members and one specifically, of this board for that, back in 05.

I missed Christ in my life... I knew He was calling me back but the voice of the world was much louder and the world satisfied my flesh.The world certainly satisfied the flesh, but it couldn't satisfy your Spirit, which was bound with Christ through HIS Spirit. That's why you came back.

And...you can thank the One who saved you for what happened in 05. Without Him, the advice you received from people in 2005 would have been hollow and meaningless. But...it wasn't...because God spoke to you by His Spirit and used a fellow Believer to do so.

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 04:07 PM
I'll be straight up also... I was hearing Christ, even felt the conviction upon me by the Holy Spirit but I wasn't listening, only hearing. I was listening to satan.I understand.


I also had this doctrine up my sleeve way back then that covered me and this was one of the vehicles that satan used to get me to listen to him and for me not to worry about my turning back into the world and fall away from God. You see, this OSAS doctrine told me I had nothing to fear from this rebellion, I was saved and that was ALL THAT MATTERED. I was still in God's hand and I could do this worldly living and satisfying of my flesh and I'd still live eternally with God when I died. Even if I died in this present rebellion.That's called weakness. The Holy Spirit wouldn't let you fall in weakness and that is why He brought you back. Honestly, was the choice so difficult when it happened? You mentioned you were tired and weary of running from Him. I know just what you mean. Ultimately, the Spirit showed me that His Love and Favor is worth much more than worldly living.
I knew I was wrong, I even know the doctrine was wrong but like I said, I was hearing but not LISTENING to God. I was only listening to satan and doctrines of man. My ego back then enabled me to defend the OSAS doctrine even when I knew deep in my heart... the part that was trying to listen to God but I ignored Him... only heard Him but didn't want to listen... I'd rather hold to doctrine and not God's truth.God isn't interested in our doctrines. He's interested in us walking in righteousness by His Spirit...which ALWAYS makes our doctrine correct. He let you flounder in rebellion, learn your lesson that the way you were living is fraught with uncertainty and restlessness, and then, ultimately convicted you to the point where you turned back to Him. He did the same for me. Our testimonies are very similar. The difference is that I see God as loving me back and you see Him threatening you back.


Anyway... I've lived it, experienced it and now I testify of all that God has done in my life and what He's doing now in my life or to others through my life and me. Some don't like it, I sure didn't back then when people testified to me. I felt, offended... now I know why I felt offended and so, I understand why others feel their offense of testimony I give of God's work in my life and their offense has no effect on me. Just like my offense had no effect on those who were testifying to me way back then.What is it about your testimony that is offensive to people? Grace and restoration are offensive?

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 04:26 PM
The writer [in Heb. 6:4] is posing an impossibility to make a point. What the writer is saying is that you cannot lose your salvation because if you could it would then be impossible to be restored as a second salvation would shame Christ.


Hello Roger,

I do not believe the writer is posing an impossibility... And neither is the writer claiming that restoration of salvation is impossible.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 04:49 PM
We should indeed look at the scripture. ... Then we get to vs 6 If they shall fall away. ...

There is no "if" in the original text. There is nothing hypothetical here.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 04:53 PM
Eph 2:10 explains works. ... fruit is not something we do but we are. ...

What!? :o Where does this teaching come from?

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 04:56 PM
So pertinent. If one could lose his/her salvation, how does one get it back?

By doing what one did in the first place.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 04:59 PM
We can play this game all day Roger... where in scripture do we have an example of any disciple of God NOT being able to do God's will in any miraculous way?

You'll defend your doctrine to the death yet not anywhere in the Bible is there an example of a disciple moved by God to do a miracle and they can't do it according to the doctrine you follow.

Out there in the world, there are Christians doing miracles and also out there in the world are Christians being devoured by the enemy and falling away from God. So despite your interpretation... what you say CAN'T happen, IS happening.

You just turn a blind eye to this because your doctrine has your eyes only on... IT.
Let's try to stay on topic. If you wish to slay strawmen we can do so in the appropriate thread but this ain't it.

Where do you find in scripture a person getting saved more than one time? Surely something this central to Christianity would be confirmed n scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 05:01 PM
Then explain to me how God don't remember past sins once we are forgiven?

Of His grace and mercy. There is nothing in the Bible that says God will not take us back... if He wouldn't take us back then there would be no need for repentance and restoration. I humbled myself, I repented and admitted I walked away and enjoyed my time away from Him when I was back in the world, I asked for forgiveness and I was forgiven and He has been guiding me ever since. I am used in ways that bust me down most times and there is nothing I can do BUT praise and worship Him.

If I didn't humble myself AFTER I fell away, surrendered myself back into His hand, confessed the fact I fell away and enjoyed that sin, repented of it, sought forgiveness and received it... if I had died in that fallen state, then... like I said, I'd of kept on falling right into fire in the end.


You Sir are teaching a falsehood and need to check your Ego at the door.

Let's be careful and not accuse others of that of which we ourselves might be guilty.

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 05:07 PM
What!? :o Where does this teaching come from?22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

These are characteristics that result in works, not works themselves.

I assume that is what he is referencing.

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 05:14 PM
Let's be careful and not accuse others of that of which we ourselves might be guilty.That quote sounded a bit out of line, but I don't THINK he meant it to sound the way he did.

I assumed he meant "check your ego" to mean that Slug1 was giving himself credit for things that LankyLee believed God was responsible for. Not that he needed to reign in his ego for all of us.

Not sure I would have put it quite that way and I could be wrong, but, to me, it just seemed like a wrongly stated point.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 05:18 PM
Hello Roger,

I do not believe the writer is posing an impossibility... And neither is the writer claiming that restoration of salvation is impossible.
Well I'm not going to take your word for it. Perhaps you can demonstrate from scripture where someone was saved more than one time. I mean Heb 6:6 is very clear that to renew oneself to salvation would shame Christ seeing it would be a recrucifying the Lord. Now I cannot see how you would wish to shame Christ.

John in his epistle speaks of Christians sinning and needing restoration but never from the standpoint of being lost and requiring a second salvation. John addresses us a little children which is an endearing term and he never scolds us a lost but in fellowship with the Father and Jesus Christ His Son. 1 John 1:3-4, 9-10, 2:1-2

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 05:24 PM
Let's try to stay on topic. If you wish to slay strawmen we can do so in the appropriate thread but this ain't it.

Where do you find in scripture a person getting saved more than one time? Surely something this central to Christianity would be confirmed n scripture.


My little children, for whom I labor in birth again, until Christ is formed in you. [Gal. 4:19]

Paul is trying to "rebirth" some of them because they fell away.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 05:26 PM
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

These are characteristics that result in works, not works themselves.

I assume that is what he is referencing.

This does not say we are fruit! This is speaking about how we behave (what we do).

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 05:28 PM
What!? :o Where does this teaching come from?
We do works Eph 2:10 because we are Christs workmanship created to do them.

Fruits of the Spirit we do not do but the Holy Spirit does them in us. Gal 5:22-23 These attributes are created in us by God's Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 05:29 PM
That quote sounded a bit out of line, but I don't THINK he meant it to sound the way he did.

I assumed he meant "check your ego" to mean that Slug1 was giving himself credit for things that LankyLee believed God was responsible for. Not that he needed to reign in his ego for all of us.

Not sure I would have put it quite that way and I could be wrong, but, to me, it just seemed like a wrongly stated point.

Ok, it may be that I did not understand the intent (but the wording was at least suspect, as you say).

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 05:41 PM
We do works Eph 2:10 because we are Christs workmanship created to do them.

Fruits of the Spirit we do not do but the Holy Spirit does them in us. Gal 5:22-23 These attributes are created in us by God's Holy Spirit.


Roger, I agree that we are "created for good works which God prepared that we should walk in" [Eph. 2:10], but this does not mean that the walk is automatic, nor does it mean that we have no willful part in this walk. And if we do not produce fruit, whose fault is that? I would suggest that it is our fault because we did not walk the walk which God set before us.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 06:25 PM
My little children, for whom I labor in birth again, until Christ is formed in you. [Gal. 4:19]

Paul is trying to "rebirth" some of them because they fell away.
Not according to the context. Paul is speaking not of salvation but of returning to the bondage of serving the law. This is only the fifth time in the book of Galatians he brings this up and deals with it. The new birth in Christ is nowhere in sight in this passage. vs 21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law"? ...vs 31 ...So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. Brethren does not refer to unsaved people. Bondwoman is the law and free speaks of Gods grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 06:35 PM
There is no "if" in the original text. There is nothing hypothetical here.
Well lets see if we think this through where does it take us? So the if doesn't belong in there, so now all fall away and to renew themselves is to crucify Christ afresh and put Him to open shame. So no one is saved and all perish. Stellar biblical scholarship simply stellar. Why didn't I see that before? If what the word of God says contradicts what you want it to say just change a word of two. Really?

The idea of recrucifying Christ seems to come from the rcc. They still have Christ hanging on the cross and the mass is essentially a recrucifixion of Christ. Christ bore the shame of the cross one time. Christ was burried and rose victorious over the tomb on the third day. No more shame for Christ is more than victor now. Christ is glorified and seated at the right hand of the Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 06:41 PM
My little children, for whom I labor in birth again, until Christ is formed in you. [Gal. 4:19]

Paul is trying to "rebirth" some of them because they fell away.


Not according to the context. Paul is speaking not of salvation but of returning to the bondage of serving the law. This is only the fifth time in the book of Galatians he brings this up and deals with it. The new birth in Christ is nowhere in sight in this passage. vs 21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law"? ...vs 31 ...So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. Brethren does not refer to unsaved people. Bondwoman is the law and free speaks of Gods grace.


I think the context begs to differ.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [Gal. 5:4]

I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [Gal. 5:2]

Paul is saying (according to context) that if one returns to being a follower of the law, that Christ will not profit them in any way. (And let's agree that salvation is the greatest profit possible.) You are missing Paul's point here (unless you are claiming that salvation is by some other means).

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 06:42 PM
Roger, I agree that we are "created for good works which God prepared that we should walk in" [Eph. 2:10], but this does not mean that the walk is automatic, nor does it mean that we have no willful part in this walk. And if we do not produce fruit, whose fault is that? I would suggest that it is our fault because we did not walk the walk which God set before us.
The Holy Spirit produces fruit not the will of man. The works we do we do by the strength of the Holy Spirit not of our own. The works on saint does may be evident and the works another does may be known only to God. How can you see into the heart and judge? We have got to stop measuring everything by what someone else is doing and look toward Christ that we may do as He leads us to do.

When we can love one another as Christ loved us we will have done more than the law can contain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 06:47 PM
Well lets see if we think this through where does it take us? So the if doesn't belong in there,

The word "if " is simply not in the original texts. You can think all you want, but all your thinking cannot justify what the original text does not contain.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 06:53 PM
The Holy Spirit produces fruit not the will of man.

The totality of scripture points to this fruit (the good behavor of righteous men and their results) as being a cooperative effort between God and righteous men. Calvinism desperately denies that man has any such role. All I can say is that we were "created for good works which God prepared that we should walk in". God predetermined a path that some determined to walk.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 06:57 PM
I think the context begs to differ.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [Gal. 5:4]

I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [Gal. 5:2]

Paul is saying (according to context) that if one returns to being a follower of the law, that Christ will not profit them in any way. (And let's agree that salvation is the greatest profit possible.) You are missing Paul's point here (unless you are claiming that salvation is by some other means).
I think this still eludes you. Grace is the liberty that makes us free. 5:1 Going back to the circumcision is not profitable for justification. If you are going to the law for justification you must do all of the law not just the parts you like. So vs 4 if you trust the law then you deny Christ and grace truely this is not what they were taught. For through the Spirit we wait for the hope that faith in Christ produces.

Paul is not teaching that these were lost only that they could not grow through the law. Growth comes through the Spirit. Back to 3:3 Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit are ye now made perfect in the law?

The law cannot give life. 6:1 Brethren ye who are Spiritual restore him who is overtaken in a fault. Not to be saved again but to be restored to fellowship with Christ and continue growing in truth and righteousness. 6:10 Do good especially to them who are of the household of faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 07:04 PM
The totality of scripture points to this fruit (the good behavor of righteous men and their results) as being a cooperative effort between God and righteous men. Calvinism desperately denies that man has any such role. All I can say is that we were "created for good works which God prepared that we should walk in". God predetermined a path that some determined to walk.
The first fruit of the Spirit is love. How is love a work that man can do?

Herein is love not that we loved God but the He loved us and sent His Son to be the propititation for our sins. 1 John 4:10

If we produce fruit in the form of witnessing to lost souls and seeing them saved who does the saving? Us or God? Does the clay tell the potter how it shall be formed? Our cooperation is to yield and not resist God working in our lives. Gal 2:20 I live never the less Christ liveth in me. He is worthy of the glory not me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 07:07 PM
This does not say we are fruit! This is speaking about how we behave (what we do).Nobody said that we ARE fruit. notuptome said that Fruit is who we are...meaning the characteristics of the Holy Spirit that are reflective of one who lives by the Holy Spirit. It's in how we behave, think, act...everything. Joy and Peace aren't factors in "how we behave".

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 07:17 PM
I think this still eludes you. ...
Paul is not teaching that these were lost only that they could not grow through the law.

So then, you would disagree with Paul when he says that Christ would profit them nothing (for you are saying that such persons as those who turn back from Christ would still have their salvation in Christ, which would mean that they still possess the greatest profit of all from Christ)? So, in other words, you are saying that a person may be saved apart from following Christ! I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say at this point, other than it appears you are trying to preserve calvinist doctrine at the expense of a need for following Christ.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 07:22 PM
Nobody said that we ARE fruit. notuptome said that Fruit is who we are...meaning the characteristics of the Holy Spirit that are reflective of one who lives by the Holy Spirit. It's in how we behave, think, act...everything. Joy and Peace aren't factors in "how we behave".

Please read the following. Unless Roger misspoke, he is saying that we are the fruit.


... This fruit is not something we do but we are.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 07:27 PM
The first fruit of the Spirit is love. How is love a work that man can do?
...

“If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” [Mark 9:23]

Do you believe in the Son of Man?

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 07:27 PM
Please read the following. Unless Roger misspoke, he is saying that we are the fruit.I think you just misunderstood what he meant by "This fruit is not something we do but we are..." By "we are", he meant our attributes.

You know what, though. I've done enough speaking for other people in this thread. Pretty soon I'm going to get one wrong and feel like an idiot, so he can answer this...

:lol:

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 07:32 PM
Nobody said that we ARE fruit. notuptome said that Fruit is who we are...meaning the characteristics of the Holy Spirit that are reflective of one who lives by the Holy Spirit. It's in how we behave, think, act...everything. Joy and Peace aren't factors in "how we behave".

"For every tree is known by its own fruit." [Luke. 6:44]

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 07:45 PM
I think you just misunderstood what he meant by "This fruit is not something we do but we are..." By "we are", he meant our attributes.

You know what, though. I've done enough speaking for other people in this thread. Pretty soon I'm going to get one wrong and feel like an idiot, so he can answer this...

:lol:

Yes, it is possible that I misunderstood, but we would have to allow Roger to clairify for himself. And I have been wrong before; that is a part of the world we live in.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 08:02 PM
So then, you would disagree with Paul when he says that Christ would profit them nothing (for you are saying that such persons as those who turn back from Christ would still have their salvation in Christ, which would mean that they still possess the greatest profit of all from Christ)? So, in other words, you are saying that a person may be saved apart from following Christ! I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say at this point, other than it appears you are trying to preserve calvinist doctrine at the expense of a need for following Christ.
There is nothing here to suggest that they turned back from believeing only from walking in grace. We are not saved by following but by believeing. Grace through faith not works. Eph 2:8-9

Can someone be saved and return to the rcc to worship ordinances and superstitions? Yes they can. They will not grow and know the rich truths and blessings God has in mind for them but they remain saved. Being religious does not make you saved but it does not undo the salvation of those who have trusted Christ for salvation but then been subverted into legalism. It does rob them of the joy and liberty that they are entitled to in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 08:21 PM
"For every tree is known by its own fruit." [Luke. 6:44]Right.

43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

I think our differences are trivial when it comes to this particular part of this discussion. Is the fruit mentioned in Luke 6 the same fruit as being discussed in Galatians? I think so. "Fruit" is the result of the Holy Spirit leading our lives. It's how we think and the force behind what we do.

Love - We love God and others through God's love.
Joy - We have foundational joy.
Peace - We have the peace that passes all understanding (Phil 4:7)
Forbearance - We don't hold grudges and we are quick to forgive others
Kindness - We treat others as we would like to be treated
Faithfulness - We are faithful to follow God in all that we do
Gentleness - We are gentle with others. We are not harsh and unloving. We are considerate.
Self-control - We do not give ourselves over to lusts or tempations of the flesh.

All of these fruits are characteristics that PRODUCE actions. It seems that you feel as if the fruit is the RESULT of having these characteristics, but it seems to me that the fruit is the makeup of our character in Christ. Again...I think these differences are minimal in specifically describing Fruit.

Where it gets dicey is when we attribute the Fruits of the Sprit to ourselves. It's not called the Fruits of Mankind. It's the Fruits of the Spirit. We cannot be righteous but through the Spirit.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 08:30 PM
There is nothing here to suggest that they turned back from believeing only from walking in grace. We are not saved by following but by believeing.

I suggest that what you are promoting is what is called a 'cheap grace' gospel. Such a gospel is not true to the teachings of Jesus. Show me where Jesus taught that a person could live anyway they wanted and still get into heaven. Even Paul was very clear in passages such as 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21, and Eph. 5:5-7: those who practice unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God, regardless what anyone may say to the contrary.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 08:36 PM
"For every tree is known by its own fruit." [Luke. 6:44]


Right.

43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

I think our differences are trivial when it comes to this particular part of this discussion. Is the fruit mentioned in Luke 6 the same fruit as being discussed in Galatians? I think so. "Fruit" is the result of the Holy Spirit leading our lives. It's how we think and the force behind what we do.

Love - We love God and others through God's love.
Joy - We have foundational joy.
Peace - We have the peace that passes all understanding (Phil 4:7)
Forbearance - We don't hold grudges and we are quick to forgive others
Kindness - We treat others as we would like to be treated
Faithfulness - We are faithful to follow God in all that we do
Gentleness - We are gentle with others. We are not harsh and unloving. We are considerate.
Self-control - We do not give ourselves over to lusts or tempations of the flesh.

All of these fruits are characteristics that PRODUCE actions. It seems that you feel as if the fruit is the RESULT of having these characteristics, but it seems to me that the fruit is the makeup of our character in Christ. Again...I think these differences are minimal in specifically describing Fruit.

Where it gets dicey is when we attribute the Fruits of the Sprit to ourselves. It's not called the Fruits of Mankind. It's the Fruits of the Spirit. We cannot be righteous but through the Spirit.

I agree with you, RollTide21, with the understanding that we are commanded to abide in the vine (John 15) so that these things will be produced by and through us. So, in the end, we are responsible for their production as is God Himself. God does not produce these through those who are unwilling to yield to Him. Just as it is His desire to produce such through us, it must be our desire to have them produced in us.

RollTide21
Apr 1st 2011, 08:42 PM
I agree with you, RollTide21, with the understanding that we are commanded to abide in the vine (John 15) so that these things will be produced by and through us. So, in the end, we are responsible for their production as is God Himself. God does not produce these through those who are unwilling to yield to Him. Just as it is His desire to produce such through us, it must be our desire to have them produced in us.I think I am with you, here. We must submit ourselves to Him in order for Him to guide us. However, I would say that, once we surrender to the Spirit, the righteousness that is produced in us is all from Him.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 08:43 PM
The word "if " is simply not in the original texts. You can think all you want, but all your thinking cannot justify what the original text does not contain.
Well you cannot take if out just because it does not suit you. It is not italicised in my bible so there is no reason to believe that it was supplied and its removal certainly does not contribute to the context.

Do you have an original scroll from nineteen hundred or so years ago? Frankly your argument lacks any credibility. Kai is in the AV.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 08:51 PM
Please read the following. Unless Roger misspoke, he is saying that we are the fruit.
We are Christians. We are Christians because of what Christ has done not through our own efforts. In that sense we are fruit produced by the Holy Spirit. We manifest this fruit and it is singular not plural in contrast to works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 08:59 PM
Well you cannot take if out just because it does not suit you. It is not italicised in my bible so there is no reason to believe that it was

You evidently have no knowledge of the Greek texts. If you choose to believe that whatever is printed in one of the English versions was in the original Greek texts, then that is your choice, but excuse me for not following you down that path of ignorance. Such a view is very naive and beyond belief. There is no serious discussion to be had here.

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 09:01 PM
I think I am with you, here. We must submit ourselves to Him in order for Him to guide us. However, I would say that, once we surrender to the Spirit, the righteousness that is produced in us is all from Him.

I would still say it is a cooperative effort; thus explaining the warnings to abide and persevere. If it was all of God then such warnings would not be needed.

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 09:03 PM
“If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” [Mark 9:23]

Do you believe in the Son of Man?
I believe context is useful when quoting the word of God.

I believe like Peter that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God. Mat 16:16 How about you?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bandit
Apr 1st 2011, 09:05 PM
We are Christians. We are Christians because of what Christ has done not through our own efforts.

So the following of Christ, or the repentance over sin, are not activities which one must choose to do?

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 09:13 PM
You evidently have no knowledge of the Greek texts. If you choose to believe that whatever is printed in one of the English versions was in the original Greek texts, then that is your choice, but excuse me for not following you down that path of ignorance. Such a view is very naive and beyond belief. There is no serious discussion to be had here.
Just a little arrogant eh?

I have given my reasons why I think it is correctly translated how about you? I should think it an unwise practice to build doctrine without substancial supporting evidence.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 1st 2011, 09:19 PM
So the following of Christ, or the repentance over sin, are not activities which one must choose to do?
Sure but you cannot make salvation contingent upon them. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Since repentance is part of believeing as in a complete change in how one views Christ and His righteousness in opposition to our self righteousness it may be seen as in faith.

We cannot follow Christ until we have been born again so I expect this to follow in a natural progression.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 10:21 PM
Let's try to stay on topic. If you wish to slay strawmen we can do so in the appropriate thread but this ain't it.

Where do you find in scripture a person getting saved more than one time? Surely something this central to Christianity would be confirmed n scripture.

For the cause of Christ
RogerThere isn't any Roger, this has been made clear. Instead we have scripture about humbling before God, repentance.

Again... as has been made clear in these many discussions, no such thing as being born-again AGAIN. Instead, we are to repent.

If there was no need to repent after salvation, then there would be no scripture about it. Only repent FOR salvation and be done... then wait.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 10:23 PM
I assumed he meant "check your ego" to mean that Slug1 was giving himself credit for things that LankyLee believed God was responsible for. Not that he needed to reign in his ego for all of us. Explaining what God has done for me (testifying) is a result of ego?

It was ego (an element) that caused me to turn away from God. Once I humbled myself, surrendered and faced God... then restoration began. Giving up "myself" to God despite my ego/pride (actually) was when God was able to begin His work and I have been testifying of this ever since. Crucifying oneself is not easy whe flesh is in the way and to tell you the truth... is ALWAYS in the way.

Some don't like it... they toss words like "ego" at the work that God has done in my life and I am so AUDIBLE about what He's done.

You've read much of what I've been able to say due to God's work in my life, the testimony He's given me due to His work and miracles in my life.

Accusation that this is "ego"... it don't work. God still did the work and He's still DOING work in my life and if someone don't like that, don't want to listen to me say miracles happen today, Gifts of the Holy Spirit are exercised in the Body of Christ today... then wouldn't it be easier for them to just remain quiet and just allow God to be glorified instead of trying to drag what is testified through their opinion and say things like "Check your ego" at the door???

LankyLee
Apr 1st 2011, 11:00 PM
Explaining what God has done for me (testifying) is a result of ego?

It was ego (an element) that caused me to turn away from God. Once I humbled myself, surrendered and faced God... then restoration began. Giving up "myself" to God despite my ego/pride (actually) was when God was able to begin His work and I have been testifying of this ever since. Crucifying oneself is not easy whe flesh is in the way and to tell you the truth... is ALWAYS in the way.

Some don't like it... they toss words like "ego" at the work that God has done in my life and I am so AUDIBLE about what He's done.

You've read much of what I've been able to say due to God's work in my life, the testimony He's given me due to His work and miracles in my life.

Accusation that this is "ego"... it don't work. God still did the work and He's still DOING work in my life and if someone don't like that, don't want to listen to me say miracles happen today, Gifts of the Holy Spirit are exercised in the Body of Christ today... then wouldn't it be easier for them to just remain quiet and just allow God to be glorified instead of trying to drag what is testified through their opinion and say things like "Check your ego" at the door???

I'm glad God has done mighty things in your life, and also understand why you would want to testify of it daily.
BUT, when what God has done for you turns into a "doctrine of works" to become richeous, you are missing the mark.
I am not saying to stop doing good things daily and out-work us all in your walk, ......or that I will not do a thing for God because I'm saved and don't feel I need to.
What I am saying is you seem to attach a ongoing check list to your salvation:
1. If I continue to do good I will maintain my salvation.
2. If I fall into sin I will lose my salvation.
3. I must tell other Christians whose fruit I do not see they will burn.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 11:06 PM
1. If I continue to do good I will maintain my salvation.I have never expressed this.


2. If I fall into sin I will lose my salvation.Falling into sin and walking away from God wanting nothing to do with Him anymore are two different things. We all stumble and fall and don't get up for a period of time sometimes. It's when a person don't ever get back up and keep falling away and they never turned back to God in surrender, confessed, repented... it really would be great to repent FOR salvation and just wait.

Such a person walking away from God... scripture is clear that God will cut them away from the vine if he can't use them through their obedience.


3. I must tell other Christians whose fruit I do not see they will burn.I have never expressed this either.

LankyLee
Apr 1st 2011, 11:12 PM
I have never expressed this.
Falling into sin and walking away from God wanting nothing to do with Him anymore are two different things. We all stumble and fall and don't get up for a period of time sometimes. It's when a person don't ever get back up and keep falling away and they never turned back to God in surrender, confessed, repented... it really would be great to repent FOR salvation and just wait.

Such a person walking away from God... scripture is clear that God will cut them away from the vine if he can't use them through their obedience.

I have never expressed this either.

I guess I'm guilty of perception on your beliefs.
sorry I bunched you in with others I have on going discussions with.

Slug1
Apr 1st 2011, 11:38 PM
I guess I'm guilty of perception on your beliefs.
sorry I bunched you in with others I have on going discussions with.Hooah!

I received a word from God concerning perception and how a painted picture covers the truth.

Now... let's move forward!! :pp

Bandit
Apr 2nd 2011, 02:01 AM
Just a little arrogant eh?

I have given my reasons why I think it is correctly translated how about you? I should think it an unwise practice to build doctrine without substancial supporting evidence.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Well you cannot take if out just because it does not suit you. It is not italicised in my bible so there is no reason to believe that it was supplied and its removal certainly does not contribute to the context.

Do you have an original scroll from nineteen hundred or so years ago? Frankly your argument lacks any credibility. Kai is in the AV.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, I am disappointed with your lack of scholarship. Kai means "and"; it does not mean "if". The AV (King James Version) mistranslated Hebrews 6:4. Any decent Greek/English interlinear would point that out. Hebrews 6:4 should begin something like"and then fall away..." There is absolutely no textual support for the AV (KJV) insertion of "if" at the beginning of Heb. 6:4. I would suggest that you look into this.

Bandit
Apr 2nd 2011, 02:07 AM
So the following of Christ, or the repentance over sin, are not activities which one must choose to do?


Sure but you cannot make salvation contingent upon them. ...

Peter seems to speak otherwise (and I think he is not alone in this):

“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..." [Acts 3:19]

Bandit
Apr 2nd 2011, 02:12 AM
...
What I am saying is you seem to attach a ongoing check list to your salvation:
1. If I continue to do good I will maintain my salvation.
2. If I fall into sin I will lose my salvation.
3. I must tell other Christians whose fruit I do not see they will burn.

Well, I don't know if I agree with that checklist (or the way parts of it are worded), but perhaps there really is a "checklist" of sorts. Perhaps we can get into this tomorrow when I have more time.

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2011, 12:30 PM
There isn't any Roger, this has been made clear. Instead we have scripture about humbling before God, repentance.
If it is so clear why continue to promote the idea?

Again... as has been made clear in these many discussions, no such thing as being born-again AGAIN. Instead, we are to repent.
Yet you claim to have done this very thing. A number of posts back you claimed to have gone astray and if you had died you would have been lost. So where is the mistake? Either you did not fall away and lose you salvation or you were out of fellowship and restoration was possible but you were never in danger of eternal condemnation.

If there was no need to repent after salvation, then there would be no scripture about it. Only repent FOR salvation and be done... then wait.
I have not said that there is no need of repentance only clarified that repentance is produced by the Holy Spirit and not the will of man. How much humility is there in taking credit for what only God can do?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2011, 12:37 PM
I suggest that what you are promoting is what is called a 'cheap grace' gospel. Such a gospel is not true to the teachings of Jesus. Show me where Jesus taught that a person could live anyway they wanted and still get into heaven. Even Paul was very clear in passages such as 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21, and Eph. 5:5-7: those who practice unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God, regardless what anyone may say to the contrary.
Well that is a slanderous accusation against the grace of God. Salvation is based wholly on the grace of God not the works of man. Nothing cheap about the price Christ paid for our salvation. To take for yourself the credit that belongs to Christ well that is not a road I will travel.

We are made the righteousness of God in Christ. Can God be unrighteous? 2 Cor 5:21 What did Paul say in Gal 2:20? He was living by the faith of Jesus Christ. Attribute the virtue where it belongs. Christ not man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2011, 12:48 PM
Yet you claim to have done this very thing. A number of posts back you claimed to have gone astray and if you had died you would have been lost. So where is the mistake? Either you did not fall away and lose you salvation or you were out of fellowship and restoration was possible but you were never in danger of eternal condemnation. Well, I see that you truly don't read what people are really experiencing out there in the world as they fall away from God and by their testimony, show hos God restores them... has nothing to do with re-born, or born-again again, or anything like that. You say I was never in danger of eternal condemnation... and when I finally listened to the Holy Spirit's conviction, I was heading to EXACTLY that... condemnation based on my willful walking away from God.

The doctrine you follow is all about condemnation. Seems that based on the underlined part, we all have a free ticket to heaven just by accepting Christ... yet the Bible talks about all that has been posted. You ignore all that scripture simply because it's not a part of the doctrine you choose to follow. Good day Roger...

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2011, 12:50 PM
You evidently have no knowledge of the Greek texts. If you choose to believe that whatever is printed in one of the English versions was in the original Greek texts, then that is your choice, but excuse me for not following you down that path of ignorance. Such a view is very naive and beyond belief. There is no serious discussion to be had here.
Kai a primary particle having copulative and sometimes cumulative force, a conjuctive. 8173 times as and. 514 times also. 108 times even. 43 times both. 20 times then. 18 times so. 13 times likewise. 350 times not translated. 31 times misc. Kai... and, also, even, indeed, but.

How is this helpful? The Jews argue for centuries over a single letter in the scriptures. If one is going to teach loss of salvation then one must be prepared to accept that it is a one way street meaning that there is no going back. Now scripture especially 1 John teaches restoration of believers not to salvation but to fellowship with the Lord. The writer in Hebrews does preferance his remarks with this is not laying again the principals but it is moving toward maturity. Some are simply not ready to move into this knowledge needing to stay with the milk a little longer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2011, 01:04 PM
Peter seems to speak otherwise (and I think he is not alone in this):

“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..." [Acts 3:19]
Read the verse in context and do not take a fragment to propose something that is not there. Peter is not speaking to the repentance involved in the new birth experience but the OT repentance that John the Baptist preached concerning Christ. The times of refreshing relates to Israel and not the NT church. Repentance is a changing of what one believes. The Jews were not looking for a suffering Saviour but for a conquering King. Only after this mindset was change could they perceive Christ as Messiah and Saviour sent from the Father. Gentiles do not have this hurdle to surmount. But I digress. The Holy Spirit must produce repentance in the heart not the will of man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2011, 01:18 PM
Well, I see that you truly don't read what people are really experiencing out there in the world as they fall away from God and by their testimony, show hos God restores them... has nothing to do with re-born, or born-again again, or anything like that. You say I was never in danger of eternal condemnation... and when I finally listened to the Holy Spirit's conviction, I was heading to EXACTLY that... condemnation based on my willful walking away from God.
Experience that does not line up with Gods word is not Godly experience. Testimony that contradicts Gods word is not Godly testimony. We test based on Gods word not the feelings we experience. Experience does not over rule Gods word.

The doctrine you follow is all about condemnation. Seems that based on the underlined part, we all have a free ticket to heaven just by accepting Christ... yet the Bible talks about all that has been posted. You ignore all that scripture simply because it's not a part of the doctrine you choose to follow. Good day Roger...
The gift of God is eternal life. Not free for Christ Who bore our sins on the cross but we cannot earn salvation. Will you base your doctrine on Gods word or experiences?

I ignore experiences that do not line up with Gods word. To accuse me of ignoring Gods word is disgraceful. Like the Lord said to Saul "is it not hard for you to kick against the goads?" Acts 9:5

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Apr 2nd 2011, 02:44 PM
Experience that does not line up with Gods word is not Godly experience. Testimony that contradicts Gods word is not Godly testimony. We test based on Gods word not the feelings we experience. Experience does not over rule Gods word.

The gift of God is eternal life. Not free for Christ Who bore our sins on the cross but we cannot earn salvation. Will you base your doctrine on Gods word or experiences?

I ignore experiences that do not line up with Gods word. To accuse me of ignoring Gods word is disgraceful. Like the Lord said to Saul "is it not hard for you to kick against the goads?" Acts 9:5

For the cause of Christ
RogerWell Roger... I've testified of God's miracles as well and you've blown all them off due to not aligning with the doctrine you follow. Look around the board, many other testimonies of the Holy Spirit manifesting in and through the lives of some on this board. Are they all wrong too because this don't align with the doctrine you follow?

You should study the meaning of the Acts 9:5 scripture and what it means exactly. It's a metaphor about rebellion toward God. So if the meaning you are implying is about rebellion toward the doctrine you follow... YOU BET.

God has warned us about falling away and has given scripture examples of those who proclaim having done His work and He still cast them into the fire. We have parables to help us understand as well. The parable of the Barren FigTree and the parable of The Sower as two right off the top of my head. Jesus tells us that those useless on the vine (must be saved to be on the vine), can be removed. It's either/or... stay on and be pruned for more work that God can do through you or be cut off. There is no in between. The Holy Spirit is not only active today but manifests all the gifts today and God still does miracles today.

Yet all this is counter to the scriptures allowed in the doctrine you follow so any and all testimonies that are about falling away and how God restored and/or miracles... run counter to the doctrine you follow and ... you say is not Biblical.

Well, what is of God and what is of the doctrine you follow are way two different things.

I was once bound by the doctrine(s) I followed... I know the direction in which they were taking me... didn't back then due to the blindness caused by being bound, but now free and eyes open and not blinded anymore... I'm sorry Roger but you can say it is counter to the Bible. The reality is they are counter to the doctrine you follow... not the Bible.

notuptome
Apr 2nd 2011, 07:22 PM
Well Roger... I've testified of God's miracles as well and you've blown all them off due to not aligning with the doctrine you follow. Look around the board, many other testimonies of the Holy Spirit manifesting in and through the lives of some on this board. Are they all wrong too because this don't align with the doctrine you follow?

You should study the meaning of the Acts 9:5 scripture and what it means exactly. It's a metaphor about rebellion toward God. So if the meaning you are implying is about rebellion toward the doctrine you follow... YOU BET.

God has warned us about falling away and has given scripture examples of those who proclaim having done His work and He still cast them into the fire. We have parables to help us understand as well. The parable of the Barren FigTree and the parable of The Sower as two right off the top of my head. Jesus tells us that those useless on the vine (must be saved to be on the vine), can be removed. It's either/or... stay on and be pruned for more work that God can do through you or be cut off. There is no in between. The Holy Spirit is not only active today but manifests all the gifts today and God still does miracles today.

Yet all this is counter to the scriptures allowed in the doctrine you follow so any and all testimonies that are about falling away and how God restored and/or miracles... run counter to the doctrine you follow and ... you say is not Biblical.

Well, what is of God and what is of the doctrine you follow are way two different things.

I was once bound by the doctrine(s) I followed... I know the direction in which they were taking me... didn't back then due to the blindness caused by being bound, but now free and eyes open and not blinded anymore... I'm sorry Roger but you can say it is counter to the Bible. The reality is they are counter to the doctrine you follow... not the Bible.
I have a simple rule: if God said it then believe it. Everything else is subject to verification.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RollTide21
May 25th 2011, 04:16 PM
Well, I see that you truly don't read what people are really experiencing out there in the world as they fall away from God and by their testimony, show hos God restores them... has nothing to do with re-born, or born-again again, or anything like that. You say I was never in danger of eternal condemnation... and when I finally listened to the Holy Spirit's conviction, I was heading to EXACTLY that... condemnation based on my willful walking away from God.

The doctrine you follow is all about condemnation. Seems that based on the underlined part, we all have a free ticket to heaven just by accepting Christ... yet the Bible talks about all that has been posted. You ignore all that scripture simply because it's not a part of the doctrine you choose to follow. Good day Roger...But you said that, if you had died during your "falling away", it would have resulted in damnation. If you came back to Him, you weren't lost.


Yes, I lived this for many years... despite my salvation I wandered away and desired my sin instead. Should I have died duing this falling away, I firmly believe the falling would have ended in a lake of fire.

Michael Snow
May 25th 2011, 05:49 PM
"Have once saved always saved threads ever lead you to change your mind?"

My answer would be misleading. I once assumed that OSAS was correct but it was reading the Bible that changed my mind.

For those who actually want a faithful biblical study of the subject, see Kept By the Power of God by the noted NT scholar, I. Howard Marshall. [out of print but should be able to get through a library or check used books online]

Perhaps the most misleading thing in such discussions is to assume that there are only two positions. The OSAS slogan is a modern distortion of the biblical doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. See my quotes of Calvin in the thread, "Once Saved Always Saved (Osas) Is It Supported By God's Holy Word? Pt. 1"

shepherdsword
May 25th 2011, 05:51 PM
My answer would be misleading. I once assumed that OSAS was correct but it was reading the Bible that changed my mind.

that's me too,I was taught OSAS by man and NOSAS by God

I know that sounds patronizing to the other position but that's how it happened for me

Diggindeeper
May 25th 2011, 07:16 PM
This thread is so old, I wonder if anyone has changed their view since this poll was first posted?

People do change their views once they come to more understanding of the whole of scripture. This happens over time and this is an OLD thread.

Slug1
May 27th 2011, 02:10 AM
But you said that, if you had died during your "falling away", it would have resulted in damnation. If you came back to Him, you weren't lost.I said, "heading" to being lost. I didn't die, if I had... I'd been judged in a state of having "fallen" away. I was falling and death is when you hit the end of that fall. Anytime before that "end" we can turn back to God, repent, be forgiven and restored.

mailmandan
Jul 11th 2011, 05:56 PM
that's me too,I was taught OSAS by man and NOSAS by God

I know that sounds patronizing to the other position but that's how it happened for me

I was taught NOSAS by man and OSAS by God. I never believed in OSAS until I actually became saved.

mailmandan
Jul 11th 2011, 06:03 PM
I said, "heading" to being lost. I didn't die, if I had... I'd been judged in a state of having "fallen" away. I was falling and death is when you hit the end of that fall. Anytime before that "end" we can turn back to God, repent, be forgiven and restored.

I found it interesting that the term "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a "falling away." (see Matthew 26:31-35) Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation, but it did involve a temporary period of backsliding. So what is the end of that fall? For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Butch5
Jul 12th 2011, 01:24 AM
I was taught NOSAS by man and OSAS by God. I never believed in OSAS until I actually became saved.

Dan, you weren't taught OSAS by God, He doesn't say anything counter to His written word.

shepherdsword
Jul 12th 2011, 01:31 AM
Dan, you weren't taught OSAS by God, He doesn't say anything counter to His written word.

Exactly as I had the exact opposite experience..taught OSAS by man and taught NOSAS by God.

Diggindeeper
Jul 12th 2011, 04:31 AM
Exactly as I had the exact opposite experience..taught OSAS by man and taught NOSAS by God.

Me too..........

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 04:55 AM
Exactly as I had the exact opposite experience..taught OSAS by man and taught NOSAS by God.Me too! Specially when God began to point out all the warnings in the Bible and was clear that they aren't there... to be ignored.

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 04:59 AM
I found it interesting that the term "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a "falling away." (see Matthew 26:31-35) Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation, but it did involve a temporary period of backsliding. So what is the end of that fall? For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)Hmmmm, since you pull up a verse from Proverbs... did Saul get anointed BY God only to eventually turn wicked to the point of suicide? How does that fit in with your message? Since he was anointed by God through a prophet, should this have stopped him from being so disobedient that it led to death by suicide?

BroRog
Jul 12th 2011, 06:26 AM
Exactly as I had the exact opposite experience..taught OSAS by man and taught NOSAS by God.Well, both OSAS and NOSAS are wrong.

mailmandan
Jul 12th 2011, 11:16 AM
Dan, you weren't taught OSAS by God, He doesn't say anything counter to His written word.

That's your opinion. I was taught NOSAS in the Roman Catholic church that I grew up in along with works salvation. Those who trust in works for salvation will automatically believe NOSAS. What exactly are you trusting in for salvation? Are you trusting in Christ alone for salvation or are you also trusting in works that you accomplish to help save you?

mailmandan
Jul 12th 2011, 11:37 AM
Exactly as I had the exact opposite experience..taught OSAS by man and taught NOSAS by God.

So now that you believe NOSAS do you worry about losing your salvation? Do you think that one day you will wake up and decide to quit believing the gospel or decide to start living like the devil? I've been saved for many years and never once entertained that thought. I refuse to be insecure about my salvation in Christ because I am not insecure about Him. Those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30). No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 John 3:9). I know that I believe and I know that I have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God! You'll just have to ride that roller coaster of insecurity without me my friend, but I am very happy to hear that you are trusting in Christ alone for salvation. That is the most important thing. More important than believing in OSAS or NOSAS.

mailmandan
Jul 12th 2011, 11:53 AM
Me too! Specially when God began to point out all the warnings in the Bible and was clear that they aren't there... to be ignored.

Which warning says that a really "saved" person can really "lose their salvation?" Are these verses to be ignored? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (unto the day of redemption - Ephesians 4:30) Ephesians 1:14 - who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30). Just to name a few. That is good enough for me. I'm secure about my salvation in Christ, but you can remain insecure if you like.

shepherdsword
Jul 12th 2011, 11:59 AM
Which warning says that a really "saved" person can really "lose their salvation?" Are these verses to be ignored? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (unto the day of redemption - Ephesians 4:30) Ephesians 1:14 - who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30). Just to name a few. That is good enough for me. I'm secure about my salvation in Christ, but you can remain insecure if you like.

The "earnest" of our inheritance is "arrabon" in Greek. It means a down payment that can be forfeited if the conditions of the agreement have not been met.

<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. In the Sept., Gen. 38:17,18,20. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring.

mailmandan
Jul 12th 2011, 12:14 PM
Hmmmm, since you pull up a verse from Proverbs... did Saul get anointed BY God only to eventually turn wicked to the point of suicide? How does that fit in with your message? Since he was anointed by God through a prophet, should this have stopped him from being so disobedient that it led to death by suicide?

Why was Saul anointed as king to begin with? Was this God's idea in the first place or the Israelites? Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve disciples, but that did not stop him from betraying Jesus and killing himself, yet Judas was never saved to begin with (John 6:64). Saul failing as king does not change the message of Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

mailmandan
Jul 12th 2011, 12:16 PM
The "earnest" of our inheritance is "arrabon" in Greek. It means a down payment that can be forfeited if the conditions of the agreement have not been met.

<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. In the Sept., Gen. 38:17,18,20. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring.

We already discussed this.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

[<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. In the Sept., Gen. 38:17,18,20. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring."

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 03:47 PM
Why was Saul anointed as king to begin with? Was this God's idea in the first place or the Israelites? Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve disciples, but that did not stop him from betraying Jesus and killing himself, yet Judas was never saved to begin with (John 6:64). Saul failing as king does not change the message of Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.MMmmm, so a wicked person from the get-go can be used by God for a short time... got it.

Is it because of God they fall away or because of their own actions and choices? Or did God set them up to be used and then discarded?

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 04:17 PM
Which warning says that a really "saved" person can really "lose their salvation?" Are these verses to be ignored? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (unto the day of redemption - Ephesians 4:30) Ephesians 1:14 - who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30). Just to name a few. That is good enough for me. I'm secure about my salvation in Christ, but you can remain insecure if you like.

Well, one must balance the warnings with such scriptures, not counter scriptures with the warnings and most of all, ignore the warnings. They are there in the Bible clear as day along with all the scriptures like you are posting. So we can't ignore any of them, we have to balance then and divide them together to seek God's truth. The warnings are there and they are directed at people who have begun a relationship with God, through Jesus... WHY are they in the Bible, if the warnings don't mean anything to those in Christ?

I'm secure in my relationship in Christ as well but I know, due to the warnings in the Bible that I must endure to the end and THEN be saved. Salvation is a gift given to us by God when we accept Jesus, this gift is opened in the end.

All those who believe in Christ "shall or will be saved", all those who endure to the end, ARE saved.

notuptome
Jul 12th 2011, 04:31 PM
Well, one must balance the warnings with such scriptures, not counter scriptures with the warnings and most of all, ignore the warnings. They are there in the Bible clear as day along with all the scriptures like you are posting. So we can't ignore any of them, we have to balance then and divide them together to seek God's truth. The warnings are there and they are directed at people who have begun a relationship with God, through Jesus... WHY are they in the Bible, if the warnings don't mean anything to those in Christ?

I'm secure in my relationship in Christ as well but I know, due to the warnings in the Bible that I must endure to the end and THEN be saved. Salvation is a gift given to us by God when we accept Jesus, this gift is opened in the end.

All those who believe in Christ "shall or will be saved", all those who endure to the end, ARE saved.
You are going from bad to worse in your doctrine. You are as saved today as you were yesterday and will be tomorrow. Jesus Christ does not change and the salvation we receive by grace does not change.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 04:50 PM
You are going from bad to worse in your doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
RogerYou are welcome to your opinion Roger. Through Christ I'll run the race and endure as scripture informs and warns us all... ok?

Why do you feel that God has taken the time to voice all those warnings, to all in the Body of Christ if salvation is secure? Why all those warnings then?

fewarechosen
Jul 12th 2011, 04:55 PM
we all get to die and find out.

i have a feeling people in both camps will be suprised.

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 04:59 PM
we all get to die and find out.

i have a feeling people in both camps will be suprised.Yeah... imagine the surprise. Warnings are to be heeded, "now".

notuptome
Jul 12th 2011, 05:18 PM
You are welcome to your opinion Roger. Through Christ I'll run the race and endure as scripture informs and warns us all... ok?

Why do you feel that God has taken the time to voice all those warnings, to all in the Body of Christ if salvation is secure? Why all those warnings then?
Why did Christ die on Calvary? Why was it necessary for God to shed the blood of His Only Begotten Son? Why do you draw back from the finished work of Christ to depend upon your own strength? It has been explained to you many times and in many ways that we work for the sake of our testimony not to preserve our eternal salvation. It seems that you grossly over estimate your ability at the expense of the only One who was ever able. Salvation is not a race it is a gift. Gifts are not earned but the laurels in a race are earned. Salvation is a present possession received and evidenced by the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit Who abides with us forever.

Why all the warnings of teachers of false doctrines in the end times? Why will folks heap to themselves teachers with itching ears?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 05:36 PM
Why did Christ die on Calvary? Why was it necessary for God to shed the blood of His Only Begotten Son? Why do you draw back from the finished work of Christ to depend upon your own strength? It has been explained to you many times and in many ways that we work for the sake of our testimony not to preserve our eternal salvation. It seems that you grossly over estimate your ability at the expense of the only One who was ever able. Salvation is not a race it is a gift. Gifts are not earned but the laurels in a race are earned. Salvation is a present possession received and evidenced by the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit Who abides with us forever.

Why all the warnings of teachers of false doctrines in the end times? Why will folks heap to themselves teachers with itching ears?

For the cause of Christ
RogerI asked... why are all the warnings in the Bible for those in the Body of Christ. Yes, we are warned "about" false teachers/doctrines... I didn't ask you about that and about the end times. I'm asking, why does God warn us about the race (why even refer to the relationship as a race), about a need to repent even after accepting Christ, why a need to endure, why are we told about restoration, why a need to have faith that is alive and not dead, why do we read about falling away if we can't fall away? Why can those on the vine be cut off? Why can the world cause a person in Christ to endure no more or cause a fruitful person in Christ to become unfruitful?

These are the warnings we read ALONG with the warnings about teachers/doctrines during the end times.

Let's focus on the warnings that are raised in discussion and not twist it to something else... OK?



Why do you draw back from the finished work of Christ to depend upon your own strength? My own strength? It's only through Christ will I endure. Those who endured no more gave in to their own strength and the world overcame "them" and they lost what was given to then through Christ. Scripture warns us that only those who endure to the end "are" saved and that is only possible... through a continued relationship in Christ.

BroRog
Jul 12th 2011, 06:57 PM
The "earnest" of our inheritance is "arrabon" in Greek. It means a down payment that can be forfeited if the conditions of the agreement have not been met.

<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. In the Sept., Gen. 38:17,18,20. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring.Let's read the citation carefully. Notice that the citation begins with the word "originally", suggesting that later it came to have other connotations. Then it talks about "general usage", which refers to how the every-day person used the word. Finally, the citation notes how the New Testament author's used the word, which is different than how the word was used "originally." Let's not deposit the original meaning into the NT, when the NT intends the word to have another meaning, lest we forfeit the truth that the Apostles wanted us to learn.

I would argue that the NT concept of the "earnest" is more akin to the Hebrew concept of the "first fruits" and indeed, Paul refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the "first fruits" in Romans 8:23. In this view, the part represents the whole. In the OT law, the first fruits of the harvest were offered to God in recognition, I believe, that the entire harvest belongs to God. The first part of the harvest represents the entire harvest. Likewise, when God gives a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this is the part of salvation that represents the whole of salvation. And the point Paul makes in Romans 8 is that once God has given a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God will not fail to give the rest to that person. In other words, we will not ever see anyone who had received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who failed to be saved in the end.

BroRog
Jul 12th 2011, 07:03 PM
Why can the world cause a person in Christ to endure no more or cause a fruitful person in Christ to become unfruitful?The NT is clear that, indeed, the world can NOT cause a person in Christ to endure no more. It is precisely those in Christ who do endure. And those in Christ will never become unfruitful.

Slug1
Jul 12th 2011, 07:52 PM
The NT is clear that, indeed, the world can NOT cause a person in Christ to endure no more. It is precisely those in Christ who do endure. And those in Christ will never become unfruitful.Then why does Jesus explain to us that those in Him and being fruitful from the vine are pruned, yet those who become unfruitful are taken off the vine? That we need to abide in Him and if we don't, will be cast out, withered and in the end, burned?

BroRog
Jul 12th 2011, 08:09 PM
Then why does Jesus explain to us that those in Him and being fruitful from the vine are pruned, yet those who become unfruitful are taken off the vine? That we need to abide in Him and if we don't, will be cast out, withered and in the end, burned?I'm sorry. It depends on what you mean by "in Christ", because Jesus means something different than Paul means by "in Christ." If you were thinking of Jesus' metaphor of the vine, then yes, a person in Christ can fail to endure. But if you were thinking of Paul's word in Romans where he talks about those "in Christ", then yes, a person "in Christ" will always endure.

In other words, we need to be careful when we talk about those "in Christ" because the phrase "in Christ" refers to two different things. You weren't necessarily wrong; rather I was misreading what you said. Sorry again for the confusion.

shepherdsword
Jul 12th 2011, 10:26 PM
Let's read the citation carefully. Notice that the citation begins with the word "originally", suggesting that later it came to have other connotations. Then it talks about "general usage", which refers to how the every-day person used the word. Finally, the citation notes how the New Testament author's used the word, which is different than how the word was used "originally." Let's not deposit the original meaning into the NT, when the NT intends the word to have another meaning, lest we forfeit the truth that the Apostles wanted us to learn.

I would argue that the NT concept of the "earnest" is more akin to the Hebrew concept of the "first fruits" and indeed, Paul refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the "first fruits" in Romans 8:23. In this view, the part represents the whole. In the OT law, the first fruits of the harvest were offered to God in recognition, I believe, that the entire harvest belongs to God. The first part of the harvest represents the entire harvest. Likewise, when God gives a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this is the part of salvation that represents the whole of salvation. And the point Paul makes in Romans 8 is that once God has given a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God will not fail to give the rest to that person. In other words, we will not ever see anyone who had received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who failed to be saved in the end.

The meaning of a word doesn't change just because it is used in scripture. It held this meaning all through attic literature. Even in modern usage it has evolved into "the engagement ring" Such modern usage for a token of pledge that must be given back if the ceremony isn't preformed proves that it's meaning hasn't changed.I challenge anyone to bring forth a piece of classic Greek literature that uses it any other way. Even Vine,who was an adherent to OSAS admits the original meaning of the word. It's ironic that his mention of how it's derivative is used in modern Greek disputes the change in meaning.
Who keeps the engagement ring if the wedding is called off? Reassigning a Hebrew definition to the word is a far stretch as well.

notuptome
Jul 12th 2011, 11:12 PM
I asked... why are all the warnings in the Bible for those in the Body of Christ. Yes, we are warned "about" false teachers/doctrines... I didn't ask you about that and about the end times. I'm asking, why does God warn us about the race (why even refer to the relationship as a race), about a need to repent even after accepting Christ, why a need to endure, why are we told about restoration, why a need to have faith that is alive and not dead, why do we read about falling away if we can't fall away? Why can those on the vine be cut off? Why can the world cause a person in Christ to endure no more or cause a fruitful person in Christ to become unfruitful?
You continue to persist in following unsound doctrine. Jesus never taught that believers would be cut off the vine. Only those who are not saved are cut off and gathered to be burned. Your doctrine is forcing your interpretation not the other way around. The scripture never indicates that salvation is like a race rather that our service to our Lord after salvation is like a race which we run for His glory. When you correct the twists in your doctrine you see that salvation is never at risk based on our actions but is secure because of the actions of Christ. Read the warnings as pertaining to service and not to salvation. Whomever has taught you these false doctrines will surely be ashamed before the Lord.

These are the warnings we read ALONG with the warnings about teachers/doctrines during the end times.

Let's focus on the warnings that are raised in discussion and not twist it to something else... OK?
We are living in the end times the times preceding the rapture of the church and the great tribulation so we had best pay attention. Now when you twist I must untwist so that others may see the truth.

My own strength? It's only through Christ will I endure. Those who endured no more gave in to their own strength and the world overcame "them" and they lost what was given to then through Christ. Scripture warns us that only those who endure to the end "are" saved and that is only possible... through a continued relationship in Christ.
Jesus said that He lost no one except the son of perdition. Are you saying Jesus did not tell the truth? The Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus to abide with us forever.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that ye may know ye have eternal life. John was not trusting his endurance, his works or his holiness but his belief in Christ to save him for all of eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BroRog
Jul 13th 2011, 01:22 AM
The meaning of a word doesn't change just because it is used in scripture. It held this meaning all through attic literature. Even in modern usage it has evolved into "the engagement ring" Such modern usage for a token of pledge that must be given back if the ceremony isn't preformed proves that it's meaning hasn't changed.I challenge anyone to bring forth a piece of classic Greek literature that uses it any other way. Even Vine,who was an adherent to OSAS admits the original meaning of the word. It's ironic that his mention of how it's derivative is used in modern Greek disputes the change in meaning.
Who keeps the engagement ring if the wedding is called off? Reassigning a Hebrew definition to the word is a far stretch as well.First off, we must acknowledge that the meaning of a word is not what the dictionary says it means; it's what the user intends it to mean. Second, I can't believe that you could not read the dictionary citation that you, yourself presented in which it speaks about the "original" meaning verses the NT meaning. Finally, it is only natural to assume that, even though the authors spoke and wrote in the Greek language, being Hebrew people would think like Hebrews and have a Hebrew perspective.

Slug1
Jul 13th 2011, 02:53 AM
You continue to persist in following unsound doctrine. Jesus never taught that believers would be cut off the vine. Only those who are not saved are cut off and gathered to be burned.

Then you need to post this scripture and break it down word by word if need be. What you say and what the scripture says are two different things.

If you can begin by explaining how "unsaved" people are IN Christ and thus on the vine... if you can begin there, OK?

mailmandan
Jul 13th 2011, 12:00 PM
MMmmm, so a wicked person from the get-go can be used by God for a short time... got it.

Is it because of God they fall away or because of their own actions and choices? Or did God set them up to be used and then discarded?

Saul fell away because of his own choice. God can use whoever He wants to accomplish whatever He wants. God used the king of Assyria to punish His disobedient people. According to this prophecy, after God had accomplished His purposes through this ruthless aggressor, He would punish him. The Lord also used Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, in punishing Israel for her sins. I'm not saying this is exactly what happened with Saul, but realize that it was Israel that wanted a king in the first place.

In 1 Samuel 8:4-8 we read: Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, "Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations." But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." So Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day--with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also. hhmmm...

So in Proverbs 24:16, once again we read: for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity. Did you get that?

mailmandan
Jul 13th 2011, 12:08 PM
Let's read the citation carefully. Notice that the citation begins with the word "originally", suggesting that later it came to have other connotations. Then it talks about "general usage", which refers to how the every-day person used the word. Finally, the citation notes how the New Testament author's used the word, which is different than how the word was used "originally." Let's not deposit the original meaning into the NT, when the NT intends the word to have another meaning, lest we forfeit the truth that the Apostles wanted us to learn.

I would argue that the NT concept of the "earnest" is more akin to the Hebrew concept of the "first fruits" and indeed, Paul refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the "first fruits" in Romans 8:23. In this view, the part represents the whole. In the OT law, the first fruits of the harvest were offered to God in recognition, I believe, that the entire harvest belongs to God. The first part of the harvest represents the entire harvest. Likewise, when God gives a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this is the part of salvation that represents the whole of salvation. And the point Paul makes in Romans 8 is that once God has given a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God will not fail to give the rest to that person. In other words, we will not ever see anyone who had received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who failed to be saved in the end.

"Earnest money" deposited by man can be forfeited if the purchase was not completed. The Holy Spirit is God's Divine pledge, guaranteeing what is to come. There is a difference. God purchased us. God does not forfeit this purchase. I noticed that you said: Likewise, when God gives a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this is the part of salvation that represents the whole of salvation. And the point Paul makes in Romans 8 is that once God has given a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God will not fail to give the rest to that person. In other words, we will not ever see anyone who had received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who failed to be saved in the end.

Amen! Those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30).

Ephesians 1:14 - The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

BroRog
Jul 13th 2011, 04:00 PM
"Earnest money" deposited by man can be forfeited if the purchase was not completed. The Holy Spirit is God's Divine pledge, guaranteeing what is to come. There is a difference. God purchased us. God does not forfeit this purchase. I noticed that you said: Likewise, when God gives a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this is the part of salvation that represents the whole of salvation. And the point Paul makes in Romans 8 is that once God has given a person the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God will not fail to give the rest to that person. In other words, we will not ever see anyone who had received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who failed to be saved in the end.

Amen! Those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30).

Ephesians 1:14 - The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!That's right. Even if Paul were using the Greek connotation of the "earnest money", the promise is God's promise, not our promise. If a default should occur (heaven forbid) the default would be God's not ours.

Slug1
Jul 13th 2011, 04:40 PM
Saul fell away because of his own choice. God can use whoever He wants to accomplish whatever He wants. God used the king of Assyria to punish His disobedient people. According to this prophecy, after God had accomplished His purposes through this ruthless aggressor, He would punish him. The Lord also used Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, in punishing Israel for her sins. I'm not saying this is exactly what happened with Saul, but realize that it was Israel that wanted a king in the first place.

In 1 Samuel 8:4-8 we read: Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, "Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations." But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." So Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day--with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also. hhmmm...

So in Proverbs 24:16, once again we read: for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity. Did you get that?I'm fully aware of all this scripture and the fact that God will remove His divine protection (favor if you will) from the nation of Israel and then all of the sudden, another nation has dominion over Israel until they get their heart right, repent and humble themselves before God. A point in this is UNTIL they repent and humble themselves... they are free for other nations of the world to overcome them.

These people of God... they will continue to be overcome by the world and in this case, other nations... until they repent and humble themselves before God, seeking forgiveness. Interesting.