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PeterJ
Dec 3rd 2006, 09:05 PM
Ok this has been brothering me today, i had it going though my mind.

Can a unsaved seconds,mins, going in to Hell, who never heard anything about God be saved in hell and how would they?

Unsaved that know all about God, but said no in earth would have 100% no chance right?


I was thinking Jesus took laz from Hell and wondered if the same thing would happen? cant recall the verses.
Would unsaved who never heard God go to Paradise in Hell? like the others did? and stay there?
Is paradise still there?
NT not apply to them because they heard nothing from it?

I be thankfull for verses thxs.

Yours Peter

Owen
Dec 3rd 2006, 09:11 PM
I moved this thread to World Religions because it has UR implications. Feel free to discuss it here

GodsOwnFool
Dec 3rd 2006, 10:27 PM
Peter, I've noticed that in many of your posts you continually ask if people can be saved after they die. I think Hebrews 9:27 can't say it any more plainly -- "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". After we die it is too late.

Just curious as to why you keep questioning this. :confused

Quickened
Dec 3rd 2006, 11:05 PM
i had to laugh that someone voted for every single option hahaha :lol:

I agree with Scripture and GodsOwnFool on this

PeterJ
Dec 4th 2006, 05:02 PM
Peter, I've noticed that in many of your posts you continually ask if people can be saved after they die. I think Hebrews 9:27 can't say it any more plainly -- "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". After we die it is too late.

Just curious as to why you keep questioning this. :confused


That judgement could mean something else if its there right to go to paradise or not? or to Heaven if they never heard the word?
I need verses that say otherwise.

I want to be clear in my mind and not feel doughtfull.
I dont feel your reply as clear as clear water.

Thanks Peter

chal
Dec 4th 2006, 05:56 PM
PeterJ;1069040 > Ok this has been brothering me today, i had it going though my mind.

Can a unsaved seconds,mins, going in to Hell, who never heard anything about God be saved in hell and how would they?

chal > Peter, there is no such person as the hypothetical one you describe here. No one needs to have heard anything about God to know Him. Knowledge of God is manifest in us all and are clearly seen and clearly understood.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (in them: or, to them)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (so...: or, that they may be)


Unsaved that know all about God, but said no in earth would have 100% no chance right?

chal > You have already been given scripture that explains this, so I won't re-hash it. If it's not clear to you, you should study it until it is clear, rather than just look elsewhere.


I was thinking Jesus took laz from Hell and wondered if the same thing would happen? cant recall the verses.
Would unsaved who never heard God go to Paradise in Hell? like the others did? and stay there?
Is paradise still there?
NT not apply to them because they heard nothing from it?

I be thankfull for verses thxs.

Yours Peter

chal > If you want to discuss a particular verse, it would be helpful to post at least the chapter and verse(s), that you're referring to. What you ask here is kind of vague.

PeterJ
Dec 5th 2006, 02:50 PM
Chal

If a unsaved(died) never heard the word at all would they go to paradise?

GodsOwnFool
Dec 5th 2006, 02:56 PM
Chal

If a unsaved(died) never heard the word at all would they go to paradise?


Romans 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

chal
Dec 5th 2006, 06:51 PM
Chal

If a unsaved(died) never heard the word at all would they go to paradise?

chal > The verse I posted explains that there is no such person. All are without excuse.


Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;

chal > That which may be known of God has been revealed to man. It is manifest in them.

How is it manifest in them?


for God hath shewed it unto them. (in them: or, to them)

chal > God Himself has shown it to them.


20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,

chal > How can invisible things be "seen?"

by
being understood

chal > You may explain to me about something that is beyond my line of vision and I may answer," Yes I see," meaning not that I "see," it literally, because it's beyond my line of vision, but that I understand what you mean. God Himself has explained these things. Who has He explained them to?


by the things that are made,

chal > To the things that are made. Mankind.


even his eternal power and Godhead;

chal > God Himself has revealed these things from heaven to all mankind. There is no one who has not understood them, whether they have seen them or not and whether they have heard them or not.


so that they are without excuse: (so...: or, that they may be)

chal > They are without excuse. It doesn't matter what they have seen or heard. They understand as much as they need to know to be judged by God, because He has revealed it to them from heaven and only He can decide what to do with them. Only He can judge what is in a man's heart in a perfect way.

mg23
Dec 5th 2006, 09:28 PM
I believe the point in question is whether or not a person who believes in God but has never heard of Jesus Christ will be able to choose Heaven after death.

chal
Dec 5th 2006, 09:47 PM
I believe the point in question is whether or not a person who believes in God but has never heard of Jesus Christ will be able to choose Heaven after death.

I understood the question.

I believe the answer to the question is answered in the scripture posted and explained as clearly as it could be in the post above. It doesn't matter what they have heard of. It only matters what they have understood.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

mg23
Dec 6th 2006, 06:03 AM
I understood the question.

I believe the answer to the question is answered in the scripture posted and explained as clearly as it could be in the post above. It doesn't matter what they have heard of. It only matters what they have understood.

Is God inconsistent then? Paul says in Romans 10:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved...How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."
There seems to be a contradiction of sorts in your explanation and what the Bible says. If a person understands there to be a god but does not understand that god as through the reality of Jesus Christ, then that person is not saved.

chal
Dec 6th 2006, 10:14 AM
Is God inconsistent then? Paul says in Romans 10:

There seems to be a contradiction of sorts in your explanation and what the Bible says. If a person understands there to be a god but does not understand that god as through the reality of Jesus Christ, then that person is not saved.

God is not inconsistant and I didn't say that He was. The contradiction is in your understanding of what I posted, not in my answer. You haven't comprehended what I posted, nor the scripture that clearly explains the answer to this question. You seem to have read into my post that I said something about someone being saved, outside of Christ, but the truth is, neither I nor the scripture I posted says anything of the sort. I did not say, nor did the scripture, that anyone can be saved outside of Christ, but the Bible does say that all will be responsible for rejecting Him, because we are all "without excuse." If you think there is a contradiction, perhaps you can show exactly where it is, rather than eluding to it and declaring it to be so based on your own misunderstanding. "Without excuse,' which is in the scripture and explanation that I actually posted, rather than what you seem to have thought I said, (that someone can be saved outside of Christ) to me is pretty clear, but if you think that I'm not comprehending that scripture, then maybe you can show me where the translation error is.

If you think that we are going to be saved by physically hearing the word without comprehending it and walking in it, then I understand what you're getting at, but stongly disagree.

karenoka27
Dec 6th 2006, 12:02 PM
What do you consider to be paradise? I think that is where your confusion lies. If a person goes to an in between place then it would seem that there would still be hope. However if the decision for life or death is made while alive on this earth then paradise as you know it does not exist. The Old Testament saints went to a waiting place because they could not enter heaven until Jesus Christ died for the sins of all mankind. After He rose from the dead, He gathered them and they are now in heaven seated in heavenly places. Paradise as you know it is now empty and will remain so.
Choose Christ today while you have breath in you. I'm not saying that to you personally because I hope you have, I am saying it to those alive who have not yet done so..."Today is the day of salvation!" 2 corinthians 6:2

PeterJ
Dec 6th 2006, 02:28 PM
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Chal you mean that everyone on earth hears God and gets a chance?,
that there is not one that gos to Hell not hearing the word?

Can u repost a verse for this again please or related verse :)

Paradise is still in Hell, would there be anyone unsaved in there?
Why is it there still?

Lastly babys go to Heaven no matter what bible says.

Thanks Peter

chal
Dec 6th 2006, 03:10 PM
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Chal you mean that everyone on earth hears God and gets a chance?,
that there is not one that gos to Hell not hearing the word?

Can u repost a verse for this again please or related verse :)

Paradise is still in Hell, would there be anyone unsaved in there?
Why is it there still?

Lastly babys go to Heaven no matter what bible says.

Thanks Peter

I mean that the scripture says that everyone on earth hears as in comprehends, understands, not as in hearing with their ears. What they hear (physically with thier ears) is irrelevant, not to whether they are saved or not (as it was falsely suggested that I said), but to whether they are accountable for denying God or not. The Bible clearly says that men are accountable, because God Himself has revealed it to them from heaven, IOW, He doesn't need man to reveal Himself to man. He allows us to reveal His word to men, but it is a priveledge, not something that He can't do wiothout us.

The argument that someone has not heard the Gospel from another human being and therfore cannot be held accountable for their actions, just doesn't hold any water, because God Himself has revealed it to all men from heaven as the scripture I posted says. It's not a hard to understand or tricky text. It's pretty straightforward. How many different ways can we understand "no excuse." It's also useless to try and pit one scripture against another, to make it all fit into a preconcieved idea as we often witness some trying to do. Scripture is in harmony. It's God's perfect word.

I explained as clearly as I could in post #9 and posted the scripture along with a step by step explanation of how you can answer the question you asked.

There is no one in paradice or heaven that has not comprehended enough about God to be held accountable.

You wrote;

Lastly babys go to Heaven no matter what bible says.

My brother, I think you're on really shaky ground with the part of the above statement that I underlined and bolded. Personal opinions are not above scripture and scripture doesn't have to conform to any man's opinion of it. That being said, I have never seen any scripture stating that a baby went to hell anyway, so there is no need for that kind of a knee-jerk argument.

Scripture is the standard by which we should form our oinions. Neither can we pick and choose which ones we want to accept as truth and cast aside any that don't conform to our opinions. I would reconsider that statement if I were you.

mg23
Dec 6th 2006, 03:51 PM
God is not inconsistant and I didn't say that He was. The contradiction is in your understanding of what I posted, not in my answer.
I don't think so, there is still a gap in your explanation.

You haven't comprehended what I posted, nor the scripture that clearly explains the answer to this question. You seem to have read into my post that I said something about someone being saved, outside of Christ, but the truth is, neither I nor the scripture I posted says anything of the sort. I did not say, nor did the scripture, that anyone can be saved outside of Christ, but the Bible does say that all will be responsible for rejecting Him, because we are all "without excuse."
This is where the contradiction lies. If humanity knows God a priori, but has never heard of Jesus, then how does one get to Heaven? I'm aware that God has shown us evidence and an awareness of Him, but that wasn't my point. My point was that people could have evidence of God but worship an entirely different one as a result. But, since they had never heard of Jesus Christ in their lives, can they truly choose Heaven? As I quoted in my last post, Romans says "no."

If you think that we are going to be saved by physically hearing the word without comprehending it and walking in it, then I understand what you're getting at, but stongly disagree.
I'm saying in order for us to be saved (according to the Bible), they must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. If they've never heard of Jesus though, but you say they can be saved, then there is an inconsistency.

chal
Dec 6th 2006, 06:07 PM
I don't think so, there is still a gap in your explanation.

This is where the contradiction lies. If humanity knows God a priori, but has never heard of Jesus, then how does one get to Heaven? I'm aware that God has shown us evidence and an awareness of Him, but that wasn't my point. My point was that people could have evidence of God but worship an entirely different one as a result. But, since they had never heard of Jesus Christ in their lives, can they truly choose Heaven? As I quoted in my last post, Romans says "no."

I'm saying in order for us to be saved (according to the Bible), they must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. If they've never heard of Jesus though, but you say they can be saved, then there is an inconsistency.

I didn't say what I think. I posted scripture that tells you what God thinks. What part of "no excuse," do you not understand? How many times are you going to try and spin it until you see that it will always be, "no excuse." How many times will you try to pit one scripture against another.

You keep trying to put words into my mouth, but I never said anything about anyone being saved. I posted scripture where God says that all men will be held accountable. If your comprehension in studying scripture follows a similar pattern, I can see why you don't get it and think there is some kind of loophole that can sneak someone past, " no excuse."

I want you to think about how it is possible for a perfectly just God to reveal Himself to man, to a degree that they are; "without excuse", without giving them enough knowledge and comprehension of Christ. Or is it that you think that physical hearing with no comprehesion is what saves?

mg23
Dec 6th 2006, 08:19 PM
I didn't say what I think. I posted scripture that tells you what God thinks. What part of "no excuse," do you not understand? How many times are you going to try and spin it until you see that it will always be, "no excuse." How many times will you try to pit one scripture against another.
If there are in conflict, then it is something we need to address. I'm firmly within the field that Scripture doesn't contradict or conflict within itself, which is why I'm arguing this point. You quote Scripture and leave it at that, but the job of the Christian is to understand that Scripture. If there is "no excuse" that a person should not be saved because we are "all given evidence," then I want to see this evidence in all aspects. I concede that every person is given evidence of God at birth, but my objection is whether every person is given knowledge of Jesus Christ at birth. We both know this isn't so, so I ask, is it possible that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ to enter Heaven? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, or cause some conflict, I'm asking an honest question. So far you've given no attempt at answering this.

You keep trying to put words into my mouth, but I never said anything about anyone being saved. I posted scripture where God says that all men will be held accountable. If your comprehension in studying scripture follows a similar pattern, I can see why you don't get it and think there is some kind of loophole that can sneak someone past, " no excuse."
The topic has switched gears a few posts ago with the original thread starter asking:

Chal

If a unsaved(died) never heard the word at all would they go to paradise?
This is what I'm concerned with. You attempted to answer it but you didn't address the question asked. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to understand myself. If all men are held accountable but some have not heard of Jesus Christ, are they accountable like every one else? If so, is this fair?

I want you to think about how it is possible for a perfectly just God to reveal Himself to man, to a degree that they are; "without excuse", without giving them enough knowledge and comprehension of Christ. Or is it that you think that physical hearing with no comprehesion is what saves?
You act as if this is some sort of extraordinary claim. What of people in secluded parts of the world? Believe it or not, there are people who have never heard of Jesus Christ in their lifetime.

chal
Dec 7th 2006, 12:10 AM
mg23;1072297 > If there are in conflict, then it is something we need to address.

chal > There is no conflict in the scripture I posted or the one you posted. It lines up perfectly.


I'm firmly within the field that Scripture doesn't contradict or conflict within itself, which is why I'm arguing this point.

chal > You're trying to pit one scripture against another. It won't work. The scripture says "no excuse." You keep trying to shoehorn a perspective that allows for an excuse, i.e., not physically hearing about Christ and a supposed inability for God to do what He said He did based on misunderstanding another scripture. It's clearly seen. How could God clearly reveal Himself while simultaneously leaving out a crucial aspect of His triune Godhead?


You quote Scripture and leave it at that, but the job of the Christian is to understand that Scripture.

chal > I quoted scripture and gave a step bu step explanation of how it answers the question. I'm not the one having trouble understanding "no excuse." You are trying to put some kind of spin on it, because you think that God has to conform to your understanding of Him and accomplish things in a way that your finite mind can comprehend. If he said there is no excuse, then you must align your thinking and your understanding of how other scripture aligns, to that, not vice versa.


If there is "no excuse" that a person should not be saved because we are "all given evidence," then I want to see this evidence in all aspects.

chal > Before you can understand the answer, you have to trust scripture to be infallible. Ther is no question whether there is no excuse. The scripture states that there is none. That's not up for debate. God has clearly reveakled it, but you are notr seeking His revelation. You are seeking for Him to fit into your preconcieved idea of how He should behave. The evidence is that the scripture declares that God said it and it won't go away simply because you think it has to work a particular way. You keep trying to spin my words, because you think it hinges on your concept of being saved. I didn't say anything about being saved. It doesn't hinge on your concept of being saved. It hinges on God's perfect justice. What I have presented is based on being held accountable for rejecting God based on His clear and simple declaration that is not in conflict with any other scripture, and is easy to understand unless you hold God accountable to your expectations of how He may accomplish something. He doesn't give me a step by step account explaining the procedure of how He can create something out of nothing, or make good things come out of bad things, but I know that He in fact can and does.


I concede that every person is given evidence of God at birth, but my objection is whether every person is given knowledge of Jesus Christ at birth.

chal > Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead. How do you think that God could reveal Himself from heaven to an extent that man is without excuse, without giving Him what is necessary to be held accountable? You can object all you want. God is not going to change to fit your understanding of Him and His words will stand where He placed them, regardless of how you try to spin them.


We both know this isn't so, so I ask, is it possible that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ to enter Heaven? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, or cause some conflict, I'm asking an honest question. So far you've given no attempt at answering this.

chal > There you go trying to tell me what I think again and in the same breath you tell me you're not trying to do it. That's not going to work either. Rather than put God's clear and simple declaration on trial, or try to say that you haven't been shown, try to consider it without limiting God to your narrow definittion of how he must operate.


The topic has switched gears a few posts ago with the original thread starter asking:

This is what I'm concerned with. You attempted to answer it but you didn't address the question asked.

chal > It was answered, but you didn't like the answer, because it didn't fit into your preconcieved ideas. You're trying to tell God how it must work, instead of trying to understand what He has revealed to you. You are also among all men who are without excuse. It has been revealed to you, but you're not seeking it, in faith "like a child," you're seeking it as if God has to answer to you as to how He goes about His doings.


I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to understand myself. If all men are held accountable but some have not heard of Jesus Christ, are they accountable like every one else? If so, is this fair?

chal > If you're truely not trying to put words in my mouth, then stop telling me what "we both know." So far, from what you posted, I know the exact opposite of what you're trying to present.


You act as if this is some sort of extraordinary claim. What of people in secluded parts of the world? Believe it or not, there are people who have never heard of Jesus Christ in their lifetime.

chal > I can't possibly imagine why you think I'm acting as if "this is some sort of extraordinary claim." I find it rather typical. It's based on trying to hold God accountable to our understanding of Him. You have the cart before the horse. Try fitting your understanding into His word, based on faith and trust in His infinite wisdom and love, rather than trying to fit His word into your understanding based on your limited understanding. He is not going to change His perspective to fit your understanding. You and I are the one's who have to change our persopective to line up with His word.

mg23
Dec 7th 2006, 01:21 AM
Before I reply, I'd like to mention that you're taking a great amount of what I said out of context. I'm asking the question, you're insinuating my beliefs. You have yet to give me an answer, and that is what I find most saddening. I'm not trying to stomp on the Bible, or cause any form of debate. I'm asking a question that you can't seem to wrap your mind around. I'm sorry, but there is no better way to put it. Please, before you reply again, stop, think, and understand my statement:

If all men can testify to the presence of God, and thus making them "without excuse," to what extent is this presence known? I introduced the fact that there are people on this planet who have not heard of Jesus Christ, and as the Bible says, 'confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and you shall be saved.' So, if there are people on this planet who have not heard of Jesus Christ (which we can clearly see, otherwise there would be no reason for missionaries or the Great Commission), then what happens when those people die? Is it fair that they choose Hell by not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord when they never realized there was a choice to begin with? Is this consistent with a loving God? As I said earlier, these are my questions, and I wish you to thoroughly examine them and truly reply. As far as I know, there is not a Bible verse that directly answers this question, which is why I resort to reason and question.

You're trying to pit one scripture against another. It won't work. The scripture says "no excuse." You keep trying to shoehorn a perspective that allows for an excuse, i.e., not physically hearing about Christ and a supposed inability for God to do what He said He did based on misunderstanding another scripture.
Actually, I fully believe God shows that He exists, but it is my question as to whether or not people understand the Trinity at birth and without explanation that I am asking. Obviously if a person simply believes in "God" but does not recognize the Christian God, there is a sort of inconsistency there. For instance, what if I chose not to believe in the Christian God as opposed to another one? Would I be justified because others must be?

It's clearly seen. How could God clearly reveal Himself while simultaneously leaving out a crucial aspect of His triune Godhead?
Because the Trinity is not an a priori object. We accept the Trinity when we accept that Jesus was God and that Christianity is true. Therefore, belief in the Trinity must come through reason alone, as a non-Christian would not believe the Trinity if he was not a Christian already.

I quoted scripture and gave a step bu step explanation of how it answers the question. I'm not the one having trouble understanding "no excuse." You are trying to put some kind of spin on it, because you think that God has to conform to your understanding of Him and accomplish things in a way that your finite mind can comprehend. If he said there is no excuse, then you must align your thinking and your understanding of how other scripture aligns, to that, not vice versa.
I'm saddened that you believe that, as a Christian, I would attempt to deliberately defile the Bible in such a way. I am merely raising a question that I don't find an easy answer to in Scripture, and then using reason to deduce the answer. Please don't view my questions as some attack on the Bible's credibility, as I find such notions more of an ad hominem on my faith then a point that should be made in this thread. If my question is legitimate (which I believe it is), then it matters not how you consider my character and faith. The question should be answered based on the thought and truth that it asks, not the questioner's credibility.

Before you can understand the answer, you have to trust scripture to be infallible. Ther is no question whether there is no excuse. The scripture states that there is none.
It states that there is no excuse for those who believe that God does not exist. It does not say that there is no excuse for those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is an added interpretation, and out of the bounds of the statement.

That's not up for debate. God has clearly reveakled it, but you are notr seeking His revelation. You are seeking for Him to fit into your preconcieved idea of how He should behave.
Please don't assume such ideas. You are allowing your perception of my statements and intentions cloud your reason. I am seeking His revelation, but I am doing so through reason and understanding of the Scriptures.

The evidence is that the scripture declares that God said it and it won't go away simply because you think it has to work a particular way. You keep trying to spin my words, because you think it hinges on your concept of being saved. I didn't say anything about being saved.
Don't try to avoid the subject. The topic and question are in regards to whether or not a person can not be saved through Jesus Christ and still go to Heaven. More specifically, if that person has never heard of Jesus Christ, whether or not they are judged differently or the same as every one else. If it is the same, whether or not that is fair and reflective of the God we see in the Scriptures. There is no spin here, you are simply creating one.

It doesn't hinge on your concept of being saved. It hinges on God's perfect justice. What I have presented is based on being held accountable for rejecting God based on His clear and simple declaration that is not in conflict with any other scripture, and is easy to understand unless you hold God accountable to your expectations of how He may accomplish something.
God's perfect justice is what is being called into question. I have no doubt that God is perfectly just, and I have no doubt there is no error in the Scriptures. However, simply pointing at the verse stating that men are "without excuse" can not suffice in this sense. It is simply illogical when the intrepretation you've presented is in conflict with how we recognize our salvation. Is God just in not allowing people into Heaven when they have not heard of His Son? This is a valid question, stop believing otherwise.

He doesn't give me a step by step account explaining the procedure of how He can create something out of nothing, or make good things come out of bad things, but I know that He in fact can and does.
Such matters are not in direct conflict with Scripture either.

Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead. How do you think that God could reveal Himself from heaven to an extent that man is without excuse, without giving Him what is necessary to be held accountable? You can object all you want. God is not going to change to fit your understanding of Him and His words will stand where He placed them, regardless of how you try to spin them.
You're right, He's not going to change, which is why I don't question His authority in this matter but question yours. I believe you are extrapolating well beyond the meaning of the verse.

It was answered, but you didn't like the answer, because it didn't fit into your preconcieved ideas.
Correction: it was not a logical answer. Please don't reply with some quip about logic either. If you are in the camp of believers that regards logic as a threat to understanding Scripture and God, then I am unable to continue this conversation on the grounds that you will never understand.

You're trying to tell God how it must work, instead of trying to understand what He has revealed to you. You are also among all men who are without excuse. It has been revealed to you, but you're not seeking it, in faith "like a child," you're seeking it as if God has to answer to you as to how He goes about His doings.
Why are you so quick to judge my faith here? Am I not truly seeking by asking the question? Where have I committed an act against God?

If you're truely not trying to put words in my mouth, then stop telling me what "we both know." So far, from what you posted, I know the exact opposite of what you're trying to present.
Incorrect. Here, let me ask you a more straight-forward question: would you agree that there are people on this planet who have not heard of Jesus Christ (meaning, the person Jesus Christ is absent from all thought, and thus has never been understood or reasoned into the mind)?

karenoka27
Dec 7th 2006, 03:25 AM
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Romans 1:20

the only hope we have that all babies do go to heaven is found in:
" But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
2 Samuel 12:23

I don't know of any other verse speaking of a baby going to heaven.

chal
Dec 7th 2006, 11:35 AM
mg23;1072593 > Before I reply, I'd like to mention that you're taking a great amount of what I said out of context. I'm asking the question, you're insinuating my beliefs. You have yet to give me an answer, and that is what I find most saddening. I'm not trying to stomp on the Bible, or cause any form of debate. I'm asking a question that you can't seem to wrap your mind around. I'm sorry, but there is no better way to put it. Please, before you reply again, stop, think, and understand my statement:

chal > Your beliefs are obvious from your questions and your refusal to take God's word as final. You keep trying to say that there is a loophole to "no excuse."


If all men can testify to the presence of God, and thus making them "without excuse," to what extent is this presence known?

chal > To the extent that a perfectly just being can hold them accountable for thier actions.


I introduced the fact that there are people on this planet who have not heard of Jesus Christ, and as the Bible says, 'confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and you shall be saved.'

chal > Which has absolutely nothing to do with the question. The question has nothing to do with people "on earth."


So, if there are people on this planet who have not heard of Jesus Christ (which we can clearly see, otherwise there would be no reason for missionaries or the Great Commission), then what happens when those people die?

chal > The same thing that happens to everyone else. The things of God have been revealed to them, not necessarily by nmissionaries, but from heaven;


Matthew 1125 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him .

chal > In the scripture above, who is the one who does the revealing?

A.) Missionaries
B.) The Son.


Is it fair that they choose Hell by not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord when they never realized there was a choice to begin with?

chal > If God gave any man what was fair, that man would burn in hell for eternity, because the wages of sin is death and every man has sinned and is without excuse, unless God forgives him. Fortunatly God loves us and forgives us, if we repent.


Is this consistent with a loving God?

chal > To deserve to burn in hell for eternity and instead recieve a place in His kingdom. Yes, it is very consistant with a very loving God.


As I said earlier, these are my questions, and I wish you to thoroughly examine them and truly reply.

chal > Your questions are cookie cutter questions, that everyone who aproaches God from the perspective that there is a possibility for Him to be wrong, or a flaw to be found in scripture uses as a matter of couse. They don't require a great deal of thought.


As far as I know, there is not a Bible verse that directly answers this question, which is why I resort to reason and question.

chal > Sure there is. I have presented them. Just because you don't undcerstand them and insist that God answer you in your imperfect way, instead of trying to understand what He has already answered in His perfect way, deosn't mean that you haven't been given an answer..


Actually, I fully believe God shows that He exists, but it is my question as to whether or not people understand the Trinity at birth and without explanation that I am asking.

chal > I showed you the scripture that states directly; "that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (in them: or, to them)"

chal > What part of "that which may be known of God," is escaping you?


Obviously if a person simply believes in "God" but does not recognize the Christian God, there is a sort of inconsistency there.

chal > There is no other God, so that is irrelevant.


For instance, what if I chose not to believe in the Christian God as opposed to another one? Would I be justified because others must be?

chal > There are no other true Gods. If you choose to believe a lie above the truth, then you who are without excuse will be held accountable.


Because the Trinity is not an a priori object.

chal > It has nothing to do with all of that. It has to do with "no one being with an excuse." Not "everyone except someone who has "blah blah blah" (insert the same old tired rhetoric here).

A priori \A` pri*o"ri\ [L. a (ab) + prior former.]
1. (Logic) Characterizing that kind of reasoning which
deduces consequences from definitions formed, or
principles assumed, or which infers effects from causes
previously known; deductive or deductively. The reverse of
a posteriori.
[1913 Webster]

chal > Instead of asking a question and then covering your ears and telling me what you (and sometimes what "we") think is true, why not listen and try to follow a logical progression that is laid out in scripture. It doesn't matter what you or I think, feel etc. God defines what is right and what is fair. We have to align to that, not vice versa as you seem to be trying to do.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

chal > Christ has always been God. He isn't some guy who showed up in the New Testament and got added on to the Godhead to complete the trinity. He has always and forever been a part of the Godhead.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (in them: or, to them)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (so...: or, that they may be)
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

chal > The scripture doesn't say, "When they knew partly about God, but still had a loohole because they had never known about Christ.

I Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned.

I Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

chal > You can't hold God to earthly principles and man's concept of knowledge. You have to compare spiritual things with spiritual things. Spiritual things will always be in stark contrast to man's wisdom.


We accept the Trinity when we accept that Jesus was God and that Christianity is true.

chal > Then you have to explain away this scripture. It says that it was clearly seen from the creation.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,


Therefore, belief in the Trinity must come through reason alone, as a non-Christian would not believe the Trinity if he was not a Christian already.

chal > So then how do you explain that men are without excuse and yet they are simultaneously in possesion of an excuse?


I'm saddened that you believe that, as a Christian, I would attempt to deliberately defile the Bible in such a way.

chal > I'm saddened that you are approaching it this way.


I am merely raising a question that I don't find an easy answer to in Scripture, and then using reason to deduce the answer.

chal > That explains a lot. Reason alone will get you nowhere.


Please don't view my questions as some attack on the Bible's credibility, as I find such notions more of an ad hominem on my faith then a point that should be made in this thread.

chal > I view them the way you present them. You say you are only asking questions, but yiu are in fact presenting your personal ideas as fact without supportiung them with scripture. You assertion of ad hominem would perhaps hold some water if I had not explained in detail every point I made and why I made it. As it is however, I have not gone to the man, but to the argument. Therefore, no ad hominem is present.


If my question is legitimate (which I believe it is), then it matters not how you consider my character and faith. The question should be answered based on the thought and truth that it asks, not the questioner's credibility.

chal > What I presented was relevant to the questions asked. You are making non sequiturs based on your preconcieved notions.


It states that there is no excuse for those who believe that God does not exist. It does not say that there is no excuse for those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is an added interpretation, and out of the bounds of the statement.


chal > I haven't added any interpretation that is out of bounds to the statement.I have not implied that the scripture says anything but what it actually says.


For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; You seem to be divorcing a member of the Godhead from the scripture.



Please don't assume such ideas. You are allowing your perception of my statements and intentions cloud your reason. I am seeking His revelation, but I am doing so through reason and understanding of the Scriptures.

chal > Can you show me where my reason is clouded, or is this empty ad hominem?


Don't try to avoid the subject. The topic and question are in regards to whether or not a person can not be saved through Jesus Christ and still go to Heaven.

chal > It's you who are avoiding the subject. Youi keep trying to spin the scripture to include your pety theory and then say that you are only asking a question.


More specifically, if that person has never heard of Jesus Christ, whether or not they are judged differently or the same as every one else. If it is the same, whether or not that is fair and reflective of the God we see in the Scriptures. There is no spin here, you are simply creating one.

chal > Nice try. That's quite a spin I must admit. Spin it and then blame the one who sees it as the cause. The only problem is that I exposed where the spin is.


God's perfect justice is what is being called into question.

chal > Your understanding of God's perfect justice is being called into question.


I have no doubt that God is perfectly just, and I have no doubt there is no error in the Scriptures. However, simply pointing at the verse stating that men are "without excuse" can not suffice in this sense.

chal > I think that if that's all you have seen in what I posted, then your comprehesion has missed a large portion of it.


It is simply illogical when the intrepretation you've presented is in conflict with how we recognize our salvation. Is God just in not allowing people into Heaven when they have not heard of His Son? This is a valid question, stop believing otherwise.

chal > You have no idea what I believe, what I think or even what I said so far, so demanding that I stop believeing something that you fabricated is pointless



Such matters are not in direct conflict with Scripture either.

You're right, He's not going to change, which is why I don't question His authority in this matter but question yours. I believe you are extrapolating well beyond the meaning of the verse.

chal > I find it amusing that you accuse me of ad hominem, when I have explaine where and why I made any assertions concerning your posts and yet you accuse me of something without being able to show ehre I have done so.


Correction: it was not a logical answer. Please don't reply with some quip about logic either. If you are in the camp of believers that regards logic as a threat to understanding Scripture and God, then I am unable to continue this conversation on the grounds that you will never understand.

chal > I guess the alone portion of the "logic alone," statement has escaped you.


Why are you so quick to judge my faith here? Am I not truly seeking by asking the question? Where have I committed an act against God?

chal > Well, first of all I haven't judged your faith. I have only judged what yoiu presented in the post.


Incorrect. Here, let me ask you a more straight-forward question: would you agree that there are people on this planet who have not heard of Jesus Christ (meaning, the person Jesus Christ is absent from all thought, and thus has never been understood or reasoned into the mind)?

chal > It doesn't matter what I think. This is not something that can be answered outside of scripture. You keep trying to change the subject. It is not concerned with people on this planet, but people who are already dead. All of these people are included in "without excuse." It has not gone away because you have attempted to spin it again.

PeterJ
Dec 7th 2006, 05:49 PM
I mean that the scripture says that everyone on earth hears as in comprehends, understands, not as in hearing with their ears. What they hear (physically with thier ears) is irrelevant, not to whether they are saved or not (as it was falsely suggested that I said), but to whether they are accountable for denying God or not. The Bible clearly says that men are accountable, because God Himself has revealed it to them from heaven, IOW, He doesn't need man to reveal Himself to man. He allows us to reveal His word to men, but it is a priveledge, not something that He can't do wiothout us.

The argument that someone has not heard the Gospel from another human being and therfore cannot be held accountable for their actions, just doesn't hold any water, because God Himself has revealed it to all men from heaven as the scripture I posted says. It's not a hard to understand or tricky text. It's pretty straightforward. How many different ways can we understand "no excuse." It's also useless to try and pit one scripture against another, to make it all fit into a preconcieved idea as we often witness some trying to do. Scripture is in harmony. It's God's perfect word.

I explained as clearly as I could in post #9 and posted the scripture along with a step by step explanation of how you can answer the question you asked.

There is no one in paradice or heaven that has not comprehended enough about God to be held accountable.

You wrote;


My brother, I think you're on really shaky ground with the part of the above statement that I underlined and bolded. Personal opinions are not above scripture and scripture doesn't have to conform to any man's opinion of it. That being said, I have never seen any scripture stating that a baby went to hell anyway, so there is no need for that kind of a knee-jerk argument.

Scripture is the standard by which we should form our oinions. Neither can we pick and choose which ones we want to accept as truth and cast aside any that don't conform to our opinions. I would reconsider that statement if I were you.

Thxs you say bible says that all men acountable, that includes woman right?
i wrote-

====Lastly babys go to Heaven no matter what bible says===

So sorry but i wrote that without thinking right, yes i agree thats not good to say that, i dont normaly talk like that, or go agaist the bible.

What i meat then is Lastly babys go to Heaven no matter what. Bible says young are acountable to a certain age.
Once again sorry about:hug:

chal
Dec 7th 2006, 06:33 PM
Thxs you say bible says that all men acountable, that includes woman right?
i wrote-

====Lastly babys go to Heaven no matter what bible says===

So sorry but i wrote that without thinking right, yes i agree thats not good to say that, i dont normaly talk like that, or go agaist the bible.

What I meat then is Lastly babys go to Heaven no matter what. Bible says young are acountable to a certain age.
Once again sorry about:hug:

Yes it means mankind, not just males. Literally it says "the things created." The scripture shows that God reveals to mankind everything they need to know to be held accountable should they reject Him. It doesn't matter whether we can understand the mechanics of how He accomplishes it. It still stands because scripture declares it. There are no exceptions listed. There are no loopholes for someone to get around it. God is not going to let anyone slip through the cracks of justice in the way that mankind's laws sometimes allow to happen. Mankind's justice often lets people who are known to be guilty walk away free, due to some technicality in the finer points of the law, or let an innocent person fail to recieve justice for that same reason. We have to trust Him as a child trusts his father, not analyze His fairness as a lawyer trying to get someone He has declared to be accountable to get around His word on some fabricated technicality.

I see what you mean about the babies. It was just a poor choice of phrasing and sounded like you were discounting scripture as secondary to that opinion. I see now that's not what you meant, so I'll retract what I said concerning that.

mg23
Dec 7th 2006, 09:24 PM
It doesn't matter what I think. This is not something that can be answered outside of scripture. You keep trying to change the subject. It is not concerned with people on this planet, but people who are already dead. All of these people are included in "without excuse." It has not gone away because you have attempted to spin it again.
Most of what you said can be summed up in the above post. Or at least, the part that I find relevant. Thankfully, you raised a decent counterpoint to the one I have made, found in the rest of Romans chapter 1. I investigated this further though, and I must say I was surprised at the results. Please view this (http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-RomansChapterOne.html) article in its entirety. I am pleasantly surprised to find a logical and consistent answer as it portrays to the Bible, and that my questioning was not in vain.

Please do read the article.

chal
Dec 7th 2006, 11:32 PM
Most of what you said can be summed up in the above post. Or at least, the part that I find relevant. Thankfully, you raised a decent counterpoint to the one I have made, found in the rest of Romans chapter 1. I investigated this further though, and I must say I was surprised at the results. Please view this (http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-RomansChapterOne.html) article in its entirety. I am pleasantly surprised to find a logical and consistent answer as it portrays to the Bible, and that my questioning was not in vain.

Please do read the article.

I'm glad you found what you were looking for and support for what you believe to be true. I really mean this, although I still disageee with you. I'm going to leave this alone after this post, before it gets heated. I believe you misunderstood some of my posts and took them as personal attacks, so if they came off that way, I apologize. I didn't mean them that way. I still think you have misunderstood most of what I said, due to trying to fit it into a certain lens you are viewing it from. That said, I am not going to mince words here either, but you'll have your chance to respond with the last word (as far as our contribution to the thread goes).

If you look hard enough, there is always someone out there that will agree with almost any perspective you present. I guess that whole spiel you posted the link to would make sense if there were actually anyone who used that scripture to justify God sending innocent people to hell, based on a technicality, but I think that mythological person is actually just a necessary strawman to fuel that argument. I'm not really into that kind of theolological weight lifting. I like going straight to the truth. I don't think God has buried His truth as far as most people seem to think, or encoded it in some complicated maze.

That article you posted is full of red herrings as far as how it relates to what I posted. I didn't post on this thread as an answer to why the person who has never heard the gospel will burn in hell or anything about being saved or unsaved. I showed that God is capable of keeping any kind of injustice from happening, using scripture.

I figured the part of the question that concerned being about a certain person in a certain circumstance was irrelevant if there is a scripture addressed to the accountability of all men. I figured that person would have to be included and fit into that category of "all men." I figured that what may be known of God was not a partial knowledge that would leave out a crucial part. But now I find out that if you spin it enough, throw a couple of red herrings into the ring and when they get thrown out, just keep throwing them back in, eventually you can make it say anything you want it to.

You read a non sequitur into what I posted. You think I have to address how God will save the guy that never physically heard the gospel. I don't think that is relevant. The only hearing of the Gospel that is necessary, is comprehending it, not physically hearing it and I believe that God is capable of accompishing that whether or not you or I can explain how He does it, because He said He has revealed it from heaven. He revealed "what may be known about God," not partial information. This does not negate the great commission or any other directive of God. Scripture does not work against scripture.

I'm not the strawman in that article either. Neither I or the scripture I posted said anything about God sending people to hell or being unsaved or not hearing the gospel. It's about the accountablility of all people, not the damnation of anyone. Accountability is a good thing. It helps to save people from being in bondage to their sins. If you want to go through so much struggle to avoid it, then I guess you will, but I'm going to treasure it, just as God presented it. It's the school of hard knocks for sure, but well worth the little bumps that save us from the big ones.

One side of this debate (the cold hearted strawman) always seems to want to send people to hell and the other (the defender of the poor innocent guy in a remote region, or the deaf man who has never physically heard the Gospel, or the guy who had his headphones on way too long and missed it) wants to save them from it, but, nobody wants anyone to be held accountable for thier actions. When I post scripture that clearly shows that all men are accountable, I get lumped ito the "send them to hell strawman group," which is strange, because I never mentioned hell or being unsaved and neither did the scripture I posted.

Well, that's it. I think it's best for me to bow out now.

PeterJ
Dec 8th 2006, 04:53 PM
Yes it means mankind, not just males. Literally it says "the things created." The scripture shows that God reveals to mankind everything they need to know to be held accountable should they reject Him. It doesn't matter whether we can understand the mechanics of how He accomplishes it. It still stands because scripture declares it. There are no exceptions listed. There are no loopholes for someone to get around it. God is not going to let anyone slip through the cracks of justice in the way that mankind's laws sometimes allow to happen. Mankind's justice often lets people who are known to be guilty walk away free, due to some technicality in the finer points of the law, or let an innocent person fail to recieve justice for that same reason. We have to trust Him as a child trusts his father, not analyze His fairness as a lawyer trying to get someone He has declared to be accountable to get around His word on some fabricated technicality.

I see what you mean about the babies. It was just a poor choice of phrasing and sounded like you were discounting scripture as secondary to that opinion. I see now that's not what you meant, so I'll retract what I said concerning that.

God's law is perfect campare to humans ways where they fail.

*Madeline*
Dec 8th 2006, 08:26 PM
Hi PeterJ!:)


Ok this has been brothering me today, i had it going though my mind.

Can a unsaved seconds,mins, going in to Hell, who never heard anything about God be saved in hell and how would they?

Unsaved that know all about God, but said no in earth would have 100% no chance right?


I was thinking Jesus took laz from Hell and wondered if the same thing would happen? cant recall the verses.
Would unsaved who never heard God go to Paradise in Hell? like the others did? and stay there?
Is paradise still there?
NT not apply to them because they heard nothing from it?

I be thankfull for verses thxs.

Yours Peter

Jesus took Lazarus from Abrahams Bosom if you're referring to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk. 16). Lazarus and the rich man both went to sheol (abode of the dead), but the rich man ended up in the torment section of sheol commonly known as Gehenna. The fact that there is a greeat gulf fixed between the two compartments (paradise/gehenna) shows that there is no escape from hell or any second chances. Those who have never heard the Gospel will be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13), since they have the law written in their hearts as God gave them a conscience (Rom. 2:13-15). Hope this helps!:hug:

Love,
Madeline

Illumined
Jan 2nd 2007, 06:05 AM
If it were possible to choose heaven after death......hell would be empty

GothicAngel
Jan 9th 2007, 07:29 PM
If it were possible to choose heaven after death......hell would be empty
Good point.... after seeing hell and experiencing it, who wouldnt?

mg23
Jan 10th 2007, 03:48 AM
If it were possible to choose heaven after death......hell would be empty
I think you're missing the point of Hell. Hell, just like Heaven, is itself a choice. I'm sure there may be some people who would repent, but I doubt that the number of souls would be any kind of a majority. The reason Hell is present in this world is because it is the natural reaction to the existence of a Heaven and the presence of free will. Heaven is a place of eternal worship of God, where people who have chosen freely to accept this fate go. Hell is a place of eternal worship of the self. More specifically, Hell is for those people who would hate to worship God, and thus choose themselves, or what have you, to worship. If we think about this even deeper, it's quite evident what kind of world this would be; imagine a world of complete anarchy in every regard, with the complete absence of God, and you get an idea of what Hell must be like.

solja
Jan 17th 2007, 05:04 AM
Saved in Hell???
What a lot of hoo-harr, get a grip people !:rofl:

Joseph Antley
Jan 23rd 2007, 12:00 AM
Why did Jesus go and preach to the spirits in "prison"? Just to rub it in that they were damned?

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient" (1 Peter 3:18-20).

CFJ
Jan 25th 2007, 11:52 AM
Why did Jesus go and preach to the spirits in "prison"? Just to rub it in that they were damned?

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient" (1 Peter 3:18-20).

Hi

Jesus only preached to the people that died in the flood... just read a little further... >>> By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:19-20)

Joseph Antley
Jan 26th 2007, 04:34 AM
Hi

Jesus only preached to the people that died in the flood... just read a little further... >>> By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:19-20)
So only the people who died in the flood can be saved while in hell? What makes them so special?

CFJ
Jan 26th 2007, 07:03 AM
So only the people who died in the flood can be saved while in hell? What makes them so special?

They were the only people on this earth, that have died without a law. The Old Testament is the old way in which the law worked... and the New Testament is the new way in which the law works. There is a huge misunderstanding about the covenant of God, we share in exactly the same covenant as the Israelites, the difference is the way in which the law works. The law is now in your heart... people in the flood were given the oppurtunity by Jesus only, to open their hearts to the law that leads to Christ, a law that have been the guardian for Old Testament people, but not for them (people in the flood)... >>> Before Christ came, Moses' laws served as our guardian. Christ came so that we could receive God's approval by faith.
(Gal 3:24)

Tell me Joseph, what do you read in this passage, 1Pe 3:19-20... what is your understanding?

Joseph Antley
Jan 27th 2007, 08:27 PM
They were the only people on this earth, that have died without a law.

Those who died in the flood were not the only ones who have died without the Law. Millions of Asians, Africans, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans, and Europeans have been born since the time of Moses and died without any knowledge of Judaism, the Bible, the Law, or Christianity. Not to mention all those lived in between the Flood and the life of Moses. Just because they were alive at the same time someone in a certain part of the world had the Law, why are they damned the people at the flood aren't, even though the whole reason the Flood even happened is because the people were so wicked (Genesis 6:5-7).

Also, were those who died in the Flood in Hell and then saved from it? Or were they in a completely different "prison" that wasn't Hell or Heaven and then taken to heaven?

When I read the passage in 1 Peter, I read of Jesus visiting people in "Prison" that were dead, and that he preached to those who "were sometimes disobedient", but apparently had no knowledge of the Gospel, and therefore could be still be given the knowledge and saved.

CFJ
Jan 28th 2007, 08:22 AM
Those who died in the flood were not the only ones who have died without the Law. Millions of Asians, Africans, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans, and Europeans have been born since the time of Moses and died without any knowledge of Judaism, the Bible, the Law, or Christianity. Not to mention all those lived in between the Flood and the life of Moses. Just because they were alive at the same time someone in a certain part of the world had the Law, why are they damned the people at the flood aren't, even though the whole reason the Flood even happened is because the people were so wicked (Genesis 6:5-7).

Joseph,

The law only exist since Moses..., how were people guided before this event, this is the point? God was and is using Israel to bless others... through Israel the law of Moses was always there for Old Testament people. After Christ every single human being do have a law! >>> God does not play favorites. Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them. People who merely listen to laws from God don't have God's approval. Rather, people who do what those laws demand will have God's approval. For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God. They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another. This happens as they face the day when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge people's secret thoughts. He will use the Good News that I am spreading to make that judgment.
(Rom 2:11-16 GW)



Also, were those who died in the Flood in Hell and then saved from it? Or were they in a completely different "prison" that wasn't Hell or Heaven and then taken to heaven?

Hell was never meant for human beings..., it was meant for satan and his angels. At this very moment it can only be a "prison" for those waiting for the final consumation regarding hell itself... when satan will be thrown in hell forever... with all who worshipped him thereafter.


When I read the passage in 1 Peter, I read of Jesus visiting people in "Prison" that were dead, and that he preached to those who "were sometimes disobedient", but apparently had no knowledge of the Gospel, and therefore could be still be given the knowledge and saved.

Why do you think that passage is refering us to the days of Noah?

Joseph Antley
Jan 28th 2007, 08:15 PM
Joseph,

The law only exist since Moses..., how were people guided before this event, this is the point? God was and is using Israel to bless others... through Israel the law of Moses was always there for Old Testament people. After Christ every single human being do have a law! >>> God does not play favorites. Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them. People who merely listen to laws from God don't have God's approval. Rather, people who do what those laws demand will have God's approval. For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God. They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another. This happens as they face the day when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge people's secret thoughts. He will use the Good News that I am spreading to make that judgment.
(Rom 2:11-16 GW)

That doesn't really relate to what I said, which was that it is not just to damn people who have never heard the Law just because the Law was revealed to Moses. So Moses and the Israelites had it. That doesn't mean indigenous African tribes had it. Are they damned just because some Jews thousands of miles away had prophets that God revealed things to and they didn't?


Hell was never meant for human beings..., it was meant for satan and his angels. At this very moment it can only be a "prison" for those waiting for the final consumation regarding hell itself... when satan will be thrown in hell forever... with all who worshipped him thereafter.

I don't understand exactly what you're saying. Dead people confined to hell are still awaiting it, or are they suffering now?


Why do you think that passage is refering us to the days of Noah?

By which also [Jesus] went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20)

I do not believe it is only referring to those who lived in the days of Noah. I believe it refers to all those who died without the Law.

Christian Holzman
Jan 30th 2007, 12:44 AM
There is no scripture that deals with wether or wether not one can recieve salvation after death in this physical world.

Joseph Antley
Jan 30th 2007, 12:50 AM
There is no scripture that deals with wether or wether not one can recieve salvation after death in this physical world.
Arguably the passage about Jesus preaching to the spirits in Prison would support it.

But you're right, there is no clear reference.

CFJ
Jan 30th 2007, 07:11 AM
There is no scripture that deals with wether or wether not one can recieve salvation after death in this physical world.

I agree... though (1 Peter 3:19-20) is with regards to this discussion the only possibility of that being the case, but it is mere speculation whether they have been saved. However, there is some kind of logic to it when looking from a "law" point of view and my own believe is that they've been given an unique opportunity.

DrRoi
Apr 29th 2008, 05:35 PM
Rom2:14

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Naphal
May 16th 2008, 03:07 AM
By which also [Jesus] went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20)

I do not believe it is only referring to those who lived in the days of Noah. I believe it refers to all those who died without the Law.

I like this translation a bit more:

1Pe 3:19 In it he also went to proclaim his victory to the spirits kept in prison.
1Pe 3:20 They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people-eight in all-were saved by water.


These that died in the time of Noah are merely an example of the type who were in hell and were preached to. This is the only example in scripture of the dead being able to hear the gospel, which means to give them a chance to accept it and repent of their sins. Christ's power to forgive sins does not end at death. Not all who repent are serious and mean it from their hearts so no, hell won't be empty just because Christ can forgive dead men of their sins.

David Taylor
May 16th 2008, 07:38 PM
I like this translation a bit more:

1Pe 3:19 In it he also went to proclaim his victory to the spirits kept in prison.
1Pe 3:20 They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people-eight in all-were saved by water.


These that died in the time of Noah are merely an example of the type who were in hell and were preached to. This is the only example in scripture of the dead being able to hear the gospel, which means to give them a chance to accept it and repent of their sins.


Not sure who taught you that Naphal, but that's not the case.

No dead people hear the gospel after their death, and are given another chance beyond this life to repent of their sins.

The time for repentence is during life, not after it has been complete.

Luke 16:27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They (the living) have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"






Christ's power to forgive sins does not end at death.

Christ's power doesn't ever end, for He has all power.
However, the opportunity of salvation is for the living, during their lives, not after their death.

Salvation is of the living.






Not all who repent are serious and mean it from their hearts so no, hell won't be empty just because Christ can forgive dead men of their sins.

Christ doesn't forgive dead men. Forgiveness and repentence, is only of this life.

I Corinthians 15:18 "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ"

Joyfilled
May 18th 2008, 03:19 AM
Ok this has been brothering me today, i had it going though my mind.

Can a unsaved seconds,mins, going in to Hell, who never heard anything about God be saved in hell and how would they?

Unsaved that know all about God, but said no in earth would have 100% no chance right?


I was thinking Jesus took laz from Hell and wondered if the same thing would happen? cant recall the verses.
Would unsaved who never heard God go to Paradise in Hell? like the others did? and stay there?
Is paradise still there?
NT not apply to them because they heard nothing from it?

I be thankfull for verses thxs.

Yours Peter

Nope. Matthew 10:33 Revelation 20:10, and many, many other verses in the bible that talk about eternal punishment. The only way to heaven is to accept Christ on earth by receving His indwelling Holy Spirit as Jesus tells us in Matthew 10:33, John 17:3, and John 14:6.

Brother Mark
May 20th 2008, 11:31 AM
I like this translation a bit more:

1Pe 3:19 In it he also went to proclaim his victory to the spirits kept in prison.
1Pe 3:20 They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people-eight in all-were saved by water.


These that died in the time of Noah are merely an example of the type who were in hell and were preached to. This is the only example in scripture of the dead being able to hear the gospel, which means to give them a chance to accept it and repent of their sins. Christ's power to forgive sins does not end at death. Not all who repent are serious and mean it from their hearts so no, hell won't be empty just because Christ can forgive dead men of their sins.

He preached to them. He preached to them what could have been! He showed them how Noah was saved and how he came to save folks in the same way. That he was the Ark. Then he left them there and took all those in paradise to heaven. He declared to those kept in prison His victory. Oh the anguish they must have felt at their refusal to repent during Noah's preaching.

Then we know from other passages that God took the enemy and paraded him as captive. His victory was complete. He led the captives in paradise to heaven. Those in hell, remained in hell with the knowledge of Jesus as the Ark. The Ark.... the wrath of God fell on the earth. And for those in the Ark, the wrath fell on the Ark and they were spared. For those outside the Ark, they felt the full brunt of God's wrath.

Athanasius
May 20th 2008, 05:20 PM
No amount of Sophism is going to see the 'free' in Hell brought to salvation.

Naphal
May 20th 2008, 09:56 PM
He preached to them. He preached to them what could have been!

That's not the proper use of the gospel. One does not use the "good news" to torment the lost. It is used to teach about Christ and save. Besides it is written that they were preached the gospel so that they could "live according to God in the spirit" which greatly differs from what you believe it was preached for.

Brother Mark
May 20th 2008, 10:09 PM
That's not the proper use of the gospel. One does not use the "good news" to torment the lost. It is used to teach about Christ and save. Besides it is written that they were preached the gospel so that they could "live according to God in the spirit" which greatly differs from what you believe it was preached for.

It's not there Naphal. No matter how bad you want it to be, it's just not there. Those made alive according to the Spirit are not those that are dead and in hell. He preached to them about how he died and was made alive in the Spirit and perhaps, how we are as well. For them, the second death awaits. But just to be clear for others that might read, we can see the phrase "alive in the spirit" is descriptive of Christ and NOT those in prison.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NASB

He preached to them Noah. And they have no hope of repentance. Only judgment awaits and knowing what might have been is part of that judgment.

Brother Mark
May 20th 2008, 10:39 PM
1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

A most excellent verse! I was dead and then Christ was preached to me and now I live. For those in hell, no hope.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 12:13 AM
Context is everything.

1 Peter 4:1-6

4 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousals, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 And in all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excess of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
NASB

Vs 3 and 4 are about those that walk in sin and are dead in spirit. That's why the gospel gets preached to them, in hopes that they might repent. But if they don't God will judge both the living and the dead. That's what the lake of fire is all about. Those that choose death, will be thrown in the lake of fire to suffer for all eternity.

Firstfruits
May 23rd 2008, 12:56 PM
There is an acceptable time for God to hear us and we can be saved. If we are dead it is too late.

2 Cor 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Ps 115:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=115&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

If the dead cannot praise God can they therefore repent?

BibleGirl02
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:33 PM
I voted "I think no." even though I know that the answer is no. I didn't vote that I have any verses though because at the time I didn't. However, I did come up with one verse.

Heb 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Ekeak
Jun 19th 2008, 04:03 AM
Fallen angels can't go back into heaven, and sinners must go to hell. I can't win, so normal people can't either.

David Taylor
Jul 1st 2008, 08:20 PM
Fallen angels can't go back into heaven, and sinners must go to hell. I can't win, so normal people can't either.


But you can win.

I Corinthians 15:57 "thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Philippians 3:8 "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

And you, a sinner, don't have to go to hell.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I Timothy 6:10 "they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life"

ShirleyFord
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:57 AM
Matthew 10

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 8:32
Sep 12th 2011, 01:08 PM
Ok this has been brothering me today, i had it going though my mind.

Can a unsaved seconds,mins, going in to Hell, who never heard anything about God be saved in hell and how would they?

Unsaved that know all about God, but said no in earth would have 100% no chance right?


I was thinking Jesus took laz from Hell and wondered if the same thing would happen? cant recall the verses.
Would unsaved who never heard God go to Paradise in Hell? like the others did? and stay there?
Is paradise still there?
NT not apply to them because they heard nothing from it?

I be thankfull for verses thxs.

Yours Peter

The short of it is...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Who are the rest of the dead...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What books? All 66 of 'em. Notice these people are not judged from the book, singular, th book of life, they are judged from the books. The books of the Bible, same opportunity we have, they just have never had it yet...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

People in China 4000 yrs ago never heard that name, but they will.

Time frame...

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

episkopos
Sep 12th 2011, 01:49 PM
Ok this has been brothering me today, i had it going though my mind.

Can a unsaved seconds,mins, going in to Hell, who never heard anything about God be saved in hell and how would they?

Unsaved that know all about God, but said no in earth would have 100% no chance right?


I was thinking Jesus took laz from Hell and wondered if the same thing would happen? cant recall the verses.
Would unsaved who never heard God go to Paradise in Hell? like the others did? and stay there?
Is paradise still there?
NT not apply to them because they heard nothing from it?

I be thankfull for verses thxs.

Yours Peter

Can an unsaved person be saved after death?

Well first we are all unsaved until God saves us. And yes God can have mercy on whom He wills. First comes life...THEN judgment. So none of us is saved in this life strictly speaking. The jury is still out.

episkopos
Sep 12th 2011, 01:51 PM
Not sure who taught you that Naphal, but that's not the case.

No dead people hear the gospel after their death, and are given another chance beyond this life to repent of their sins.

The time for repentence is during life, not after it has been complete.

Luke 16:27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They (the living) have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"





Christ's power doesn't ever end, for He has all power.
However, the opportunity of salvation is for the living, during their lives, not after their death.

Salvation is of the living.






Christ doesn't forgive dead men. Forgiveness and repentence, is only of this life.

I Corinthians 15:18 "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ"

Yet God is God of the living. All are alive before Him....that is until they are judged.

episkopos
Sep 12th 2011, 01:57 PM
Think of life as a training camp. We all go through various trials and tribulations. We all fail at various points. No one runs a perfect course.

Now the temptation is to compare ourselves with others. Most will look down on those who seem to be doing less well than themselves. They call these the "unsaved". But this is the human tendency of survival. We will step on others in order to survive. Christendom does this as well.

But the way of God is opposite.

Only at the very end will we ALL be judged. Many who seem to be last in the tests will actually be first. Many who claim to be saved, sanctified and glorified (especialy them) will actually be last.

Fear the Lord and depart from the wickedness of man's reasonings.

MaryFreeman
Sep 12th 2011, 11:35 PM
I know I am jumping in this pool way late.... However I do not believe that people anywhere are unaware of God in some capacity.... Therefore at the Great White Throne judgment they will be without excuse and be thrown with hell and the grave in the lake of fire.... Here is why:

Rom 1:18-24 AMP
(18) For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.
(19) For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
(20) For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification], [Ps. 19: 1-4.]
(21) Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
(22) Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
(23) And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
(24) Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],

So no.... An unbeliever has no excuse for unbelief and therefore cannot have a second chance after death.... Just my :2cents:

LookingUp
Sep 13th 2011, 12:35 AM
I'm a little confused about this poll. If a person dies and "goes to hell" (i.e. waiting for the final judgment to be cast into the Lake of Fire), how is it at all possible for this dead person to live a life reflecting the faith, humility, mercy, and repentance that reveals one is on the path toward light and life and not on the path toward darkness and death when they're already dead? If they died while on the path that leads to darkness and death, how can that path end up with light and life?

Brendon Ward
Sep 13th 2011, 03:14 AM
Death and Hades are turned into hell at the judgement. This brings up the whole issue of "the intermediate period" - but basically, Lazarus didn't go to hell, he went to Hades from whence he was raised.

As far as I am aware, once you die, you cease to be part of a time/space world and enter the eternal/invisible reality. So it's not like you are waiting out the years until the resurrection before you get to go to your final destination. The logical order seems to be "death >>> judgment >>> final destination" without what we would understand as a time delay. It's a bit hazy I know, but I think the illustrations we are given from the story of Lazarus and the rich man are just that, illustrations.

Having said all that, the principle of a chasm between "hell" and "Abraham's bosom" is not one that can be crossed - so once judgement is issued and destination arrived, there is no court of appeal or quashing of God's judgment.

Brendon Ward
Sep 13th 2011, 03:18 AM
I believe the point in question is whether or not a person who believes in God but has never heard of Jesus Christ will be able to choose Heaven after death.

It is not possible to believe in God (the true and living God who reveals Himself in creation and in the pages of Scripture) without having heard of Jesus Christ - they must go hand in hand. The God of the Bible is also the God who reveals Himself through the Lord Jesus Christ. You see, whoever has the Son, has life. Whoever does not have the Son, does not have life. And no-one comes to the Father (God) except through Him (Jesus) - by faith, having heard.

percho
Sep 14th 2011, 02:11 AM
Let's say in 1400 AD there was an Inca name Wombat who died.

I assume in all probability he died in Adam.

Poor soul!

mikebr
Sep 14th 2011, 02:18 AM
Let's say in 1400 AD there was an Inca name Wombat who died.

I assume in all probability he died in Adam.

Poor soul!

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. :hmm:

and



He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. and hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-for before the law was given, sin was in the world. but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed may trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5

LookingUp
Sep 14th 2011, 02:21 AM
Let's say in 1400 AD there was an Inca name Wombat who died.

I assume in all probability he died in Adam.

Poor soul!How do you know?

percho
Sep 14th 2011, 04:45 AM
How do you know?

How do I know what?

percho
Sep 14th 2011, 05:31 AM
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. :hmm:

and



Romans 5


I agree with your post.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I do not believe the judgement takes place until they are made alive in Christ. This would be the first time Wombat will ever have heard of Jesus the Christ. The first time he will know of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and the seed of Abraham the Christ the Son of God.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

Shoot, that might include Wombat.

Lucky soul.

Aren't we all?

LookingUp
Sep 14th 2011, 06:21 AM
How do you know?How do you know "Wombat the Inca in 1400 AD" is a poor soul?

mikebr
Sep 14th 2011, 11:39 AM
I agree with your post.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I do not believe the judgement takes place until they are made alive in Christ. This would be the first time Wombat will ever have heard of Jesus the Christ. The first time he will know of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and the seed of Abraham the Christ the Son of God.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

Shoot, that might include Wombat.

Lucky soul.

Aren't we all?

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

I realize that this doesn't really mean all things???????????????????

It looks like to me He makes the peace not us.

John 8:32
Sep 14th 2011, 01:55 PM
So no.... An unbeliever has no excuse for unbelief and therefore cannot have a second chance after death.... Just my :2cents:

When did the Chinese 4000 years ago have their chance?

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Not talking about a second chance, some have never had their first chance. But, what is God is so merciful He would give someone 10 chances, would that anger you?

episkopos
Sep 14th 2011, 06:55 PM
Where does it say...For God so loved the church that he gave his only Son for her?

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Tim. 4:10

LookingUp
Sep 14th 2011, 06:57 PM
When did the Chinese 4000 years ago have their chance?

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Not talking about a second chance, some have never had their first chance. But, what is God is so merciful He would give someone 10 chances, would that anger you?This doesn't mean you have to know his name to be saved. The phrase "the name" or "in the name of" means that he is the one with the authority. Jesus the Christ is the Judge. All men have had their chance. "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus" (Rom. 2:14-16). "...because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" (Rom. 1:19).

mikebr
Sep 15th 2011, 01:12 AM
So no.... An unbeliever has no excuse for unbelief and therefore cannot have a second chance after death.... Just my

So are you suggesting that salvation is by chance. If they cannot have a 2nd chance then it must mean that the first time was simply by chance? Do you really believe that.

mikebr
Sep 15th 2011, 01:59 AM
Some of us believe that God is almighty and can do
everything; and that he is all-wise and may do everything;
but that he is all-love and will do everything—there we draw
back. As I see it, this ignorance is the greatest of all
hindrances to God’s lovers.
-Julian of Norwich

Noonzie
Sep 15th 2011, 06:21 PM
Some of us believe that God is almighty and can do
everything; and that he is all-wise and may do everything;
but that he is all-love and will do everything—there we draw
back. As I see it, this ignorance is the greatest of all
hindrances to God’s lovers.

-Julian of Norwich

What is this quote about? Is this supposed to be an answer to whether or not those in hell will be given salvation?
If so, the ignorance is in the quote.

John 8:32
Sep 15th 2011, 08:14 PM
This doesn't mean you have to know his name to be saved. The phrase "the name" or "in the name of" means that he is the one with the authority. Jesus the Christ is the Judge. All men have had their chance. "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus" (Rom. 2:14-16). "...because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" (Rom. 1:19).

Glad you ain't the judge, there are people who have lived who have never known anything about salvation or the purpose of man, mentally challenged comes to mind. Burn 'em all, it'll teach 'em a lesson.

mikebr
Sep 15th 2011, 08:58 PM
What is this quote about? Is this supposed to be an answer to whether or not those in hell will be given salvation?
If so, the ignorance is in the quote.

You could at least explain why you think the quote is ignorant?

LookingUp
Sep 15th 2011, 11:53 PM
Glad you ain't the judge, there are people who have lived who have never known anything about salvation or the purpose of man, mentally challenged comes to mind. Burn 'em all, it'll teach 'em a lesson.You have misunderstood this passage and you have misunderstood me. The salvation of a man doesn't depend on head knowledge at all.

mikebr
Sep 16th 2011, 11:47 AM
You have misunderstood this passage and you have misunderstood me. The salvation of a man doesn't depend on head knowledge at all.

What exactly does it depend on?

LookingUp
Sep 16th 2011, 06:47 PM
What exactly does it depend on?I'd venture to guess that some of the smartest men who've ever lived, even some who've known Scripture inside and out, lacked the faith and humility that leads to eternal life. On the other hand, I'd venture to guess that some of the most simple men who've ever lived, even some who've never laid eyes on a Bible, possessed the faith and humility that leads to eternal life. A head full of knowledge isn't the key to salvation.

mikebr
Sep 16th 2011, 07:14 PM
I'd venture to guess that some of the smartest men who've ever lived, even some who've known Scripture inside and out, lacked the faith and humility that leads to eternal life. On the other hand, I'd venture to guess that some of the most simple men who've ever lived, even some who've never laid eyes on a Bible, possessed the faith and humility that leads to eternal life. A head full of knowledge isn't the key to salvation.

We agree but you still didn't tell me what it does depend on.

LookingUp
Sep 16th 2011, 07:57 PM
We agree but you still didn't tell me what it does depend on.Christ, the son of the living God.

mikebr
Sep 16th 2011, 11:00 PM
Christ, the son of the living God.

Now I get it..............and now we agree on two things! Salvation is always based on the actions of the one doing the saving.

percho
Sep 17th 2011, 05:05 AM
Now I get it..............and now we agree on two things! Salvation is always based on the actions of the one doing the saving.

Thank God or none no not one would be saved.

txchvs
Sep 17th 2011, 05:29 AM
You only go to hell if your a child of perdition, it's the opposite of being born again and it's an irreversible condition. When Jesus rebukes the Scribes and Pharisees he calls them children of their father the devil, this is an important indictment. Did you ever notice that no one in the Bible talks about hell except for Jesus? There is a reason for that, no one else knew anything about it and guess what, no one else can tell a child of perdition from a child of the Living God. Not really.

Here is what Paul said on a related issue:

But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) (Romans 10:6)

Here are the words from Moses Paul is elaborating on:

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" (Deuteronomy 30:12)

Now here's my point, the question is wrong. Bear in mind, I'm not even worried what you think the answer is. The reason being that the Word is in your heart and in your mouth, God's revelation is sufficient to you. You should not be asking the question, even in your heart.

Don't take that as a rebuke, I mean no such thing. Just think about it, only God can know the secret inclinations of the heart. God's revelation shines before all, the true light that gives light to everyone who comes into the world and John says it. The question is whether someone who has not heard to Gospel can be rescued from hell and the answer is that the question is wrong. God's glory is reflected in the things that are made so that all men are without excuse (Romans 1:18-20), whether they have had the full revelation of Christ or not. No one goes to hell unless they curse the light and flee to the darkness and when they do, there is no repentance because the basis of repentance has been abandoned forever.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mikebr
Sep 17th 2011, 02:04 PM
You only go to hell if your a child of perdition, it's the opposite of being born again and it's an irreversible condition. When Jesus rebukes the Scribes and Pharisees he calls them children of their father the devil, this is an important indictment. Did you ever notice that no one in the Bible talks about hell except for Jesus? There is a reason for that, no one else knew anything about it and guess what, no one else can tell a child of perdition from a child of the Living God. Not really.

Here is what Paul said on a related issue:

But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) (Romans 10:6)

Here are the words from Moses Paul is elaborating on:

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" (Deuteronomy 30:12)

Now here's my point, the question is wrong. Bear in mind, I'm not even worried what you think the answer is. The reason being that the Word is in your heart and in your mouth, God's revelation is sufficient to you. You should not be asking the question, even in your heart.

Don't take that as a rebuke, I mean no such thing. Just think about it, only God can know the secret inclinations of the heart. God's revelation shines before all, the true light that gives light to everyone who comes into the world and John says it. The question is whether someone who has not heard to Gospel can be rescued from hell and the answer is that the question is wrong. God's glory is reflected in the things that are made so that all men are without excuse (Romans 1:18-20), whether they have had the full revelation of Christ or not. No one goes to hell unless they curse the light and flee to the darkness and when they do, there is no repentance because the basis of repentance has been abandoned forever.

Grace and peace,
Mark
What does any of this have to do with the Crucifixion of Christ. What did He accomplish on the cross if God is simply going to judge our hearts? I would really like for someone to answer this question. Is the story of the Prodigal simply one that is suggesting that the Father knew His son's heart? Or is it one that suggest that the Father accepts the son regardless of the condition of his heart. He came home because he was hungry and he was willing to be a servant. That was the condition of his heart.

percho
Sep 17th 2011, 08:26 PM
What does any of this have to do with the Crucifixion of Christ. What did He accomplish on the cross if God is simply going to judge our hearts? I would really like for someone to answer this question. Is the story of the Prodigal simply one that is suggesting that the Father knew His son's heart? Or is it one that suggest that the Father accepts the son regardless of the condition of his heart. He came home because he was hungry and he was willing to be a servant. That was the condition of his heart.

And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find [them]: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then [was it] better with me than now.

mikebr
Sep 17th 2011, 08:28 PM
And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find [them]: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then [was it] better with me than now.

Not following you.What does this have to do with what Jesus accomplished on the Cross?