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View Full Version : 1 John 5:16 says NOT to pray for some sinners....this confuses me.



ComeLordJesus
Dec 19th 2006, 04:50 PM
1John 5:16 says NOT to pray or interceed for people that sin unto death or unrepentant sinners.


This just seems wrong not to pray for them. What is your opinion please??

uscchica09
Dec 19th 2006, 05:18 PM
I think you have misinterpreted this verse:

1 John 5:16
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

This verse is not saying that you shouldn't pray for anyone.

These verses are telling us to pray for someone who has committed a sin that does not lead to death and God will give him life. The bolded sentence is saying that if you pray for someone whose sin leads to death that God will not give them life. It is only clarifying the fact that a prayer for a sin that leads to death will not give them life. Only a prayer for someone whose sin does not lead to death will be granted life.

ChristopherE
Dec 19th 2006, 05:22 PM
Mat 7:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#6) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Mar 6:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar006.html#11) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

It can also tie in with:

Mat 12:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat012.html#31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


2Pe 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=2&verse=20&version=kjv#20)For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Pe/2Pe002.html#21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=2&verse=22&version=kjv#22)But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I won't pretend to have it all figured out as I was recently "rended" in a big way for casting my pearls.

ChristopherE
Dec 19th 2006, 05:32 PM
I think you have misinterpreted this verse:

1 John 5:16
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

This verse is not saying that you shouldn't pray for anyone.

These verses are telling us to pray for someone who has committed a sin that does not lead to death and God will give him life. The bolded sentence is saying that if you pray for someone whose sin leads to death that God will not give them life. It is only clarifying the fact that a prayer for a sin that leads to death will not give them life. Only a prayer for someone whose sin does not lead to death will be granted life.

yes, that's what the OP was talking about. I gather the question asked was why shouldn't we even pray for the unrepentant sinner - for unrepented sin leads to death.

ComeLordJesus
Dec 19th 2006, 08:15 PM
Thanks for writing ChristopherE and Uscchica09.

Have you a suggestion how to pray for the sinner on his way to death? Like for Our Father to soften his heart, his eyes, and do something drastic to turn him back unto the Lord? How do we continue to pray for those people we love so much and God keeps giving us forgiveness and compassion about???

ChristopherE
Dec 19th 2006, 09:28 PM
Thanks for writing ChristopherE and Uscchica09.

Have you a suggestion how to pray for the sinner on his way to death? Like for Our Father to soften his heart, his eyes, and do something drastic to turn him back unto the Lord? How do we continue to pray for those people we love so much and God keeps giving us forgiveness and compassion about???

Could you ask a harder question? heh

If they are denying God, I have to say "don't". It's hard because we do have compassion, and that's great. I would say pray for yourself that God guide your actions so your life is a witness and glorifies God. However, you have to give that person over to God. If that person is going to be saved, he/she will be. In the meantime, your energies will only be wasted.

I know how hard this is, and people might think me hardened or bitter for this answer, but it's the one I think lines up with the scripture, some of which I quoted above.

Hevinly1
Dec 20th 2006, 12:03 AM
1 John 5
14And this is the confidence (the assurance, the privilege of boldness) which we have in Him: [we are sure] that if we ask anything (make any request) according to His will (in agreement with His own plan), He listens to and hears us.
15And if (since) we [positively] know that He listens to us in whatever we ask, we also know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that we have [granted us as our present possessions] the requests made of Him.
16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven]. 18We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].


I looked at it in the amplified.. It seems that we cannot pray that they be forgivin but we can pray that they repent!

Here is the commentary that I found on this chapter as well:



[B]The danger of being infected by false professors, and the dreadful punishment which shall be inflicted on them and their followers.



Upon all this evidence, it is but right that we believe on the name of the Son of God. Believers have eternal life in the covenant of the gospel. Then let us thankfully receive the record of Scripture. Always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that our labour is not in vain in the Lord. The Lord Christ invites us to come to him in all circumstances, with our supplications and requests, notwithstanding the sin that besets us. Our prayers must always be offered in submission to
the will of God. In some things they are speedily answered; in others they are granted in the best manner, though not as requested. We ought to pray for others, as well as for ourselves. There are sins that war against spiritual life in the soul, and the life above. We cannot pray that the sins of the impenitent and unbelieving should, while they are such, be forgiven them; or that mercy, which supposes the forgiveness of sins, should be granted to them, while they wilfully continue such. But we may pray for their repentance, for their being enriched with faith in Christ, and thereupon for all other saving mercies. We should pray for others, as well as for ourselves, beseeching the Lord to pardon and recover the fallen, as well as to relieve the tempted and afflicted. And let us be truly thankful that no sin, of which any one truly repents, is unto death. (1Jn 5:18-21)

NorK
Dec 20th 2006, 12:24 AM
1 John 5:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:16;&version=9;) "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."
_______________
Some think John was refering to a sin "leading to physical death," but the immediate and larger context of the entire letter seems to indicate that it was spiritual death that he had in mind. So what is the sin leading to spiritual death? This has been debated for centuries. From our studies in the book of Hebrews, we know that the only unpardonable sin a Christian can commit is one of willfully and deliberately turning his back on Jesus after having reached a certain level of spiritual maturity. To pray for a person who has commited that sin is a waste of time, because "it is impossible to renew [him] again to repentance" (Heb 6:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%206:6;&version=9;)). I conclude that the sin leading to death is apostasy by someone who has reached the spiritual level described in Hebrews 6:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%206:4-6;&version=9;).
______________________
(Your Best Year Yet! David S Kirkwood P. 636)

DSK
Dec 20th 2006, 12:25 AM
Below I have listed other verses found in Scripture where the Lord's instructions are to not pray for others

Jer 14:11 And Jehovah said unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.

Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me; for I will not hear thee.

Jer 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them; for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me because of their trouble.

DSK
Dec 20th 2006, 12:39 AM
1 John 5:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:16;&version=9;) "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."
_______________
Some think John was refering to a sin "leading to physical death," but the immediate and larger context of the entire letter seems to indicate that it was spiritual death that he had in mind. So what is the sin leading to spiritual death? This has been debated for centuries. From our studies in the book of Hebrews, we know that the only unpardonable sin a Christian can commit is one of willfully and deliberately turning his back on Jesus after having reached a certain level of spiritual maturity. To pray for a person who has commited that sin is a waste of time, because "it is impossible to renew [him] again to repentance" (Heb 6:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%206:6;&version=9;)). I conclude that the sin leading to death is apostasy by someone who has reached the spiritual level described in Hebrews 6:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%206:4-6;&version=9;).
______________________
(Your Best Year Yet! David S Kirkwood P. 636)

I totally agree with the comments of the above reply

Excellent

uscchica09
Dec 20th 2006, 02:58 PM
Below I have listed other verses found in Scripture where the Lord's instructions are to not pray for others

Jer 14:11 And Jehovah said unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.

Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me; for I will not hear thee.

Jer 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them; for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me because of their trouble.

This is from the OT where the punishment for sins was much harsher, because we were seperated from God. With Jesus' sacrifice we can now be forgiven of our sins.

uscchica09
Dec 20th 2006, 03:08 PM
Thanks for writing ChristopherE and Uscchica09.

Have you a suggestion how to pray for the sinner on his way to death? Like for Our Father to soften his heart, his eyes, and do something drastic to turn him back unto the Lord? How do we continue to pray for those people we love so much and God keeps giving us forgiveness and compassion about???

You should never stop praying that someone will repent of their sins. Sometimes it will be years before a person is saved and sometimes they will never come to know Christ. But, your prayers are never in vain. You will be rewarded for the compassion you have in others and the hope you place in God.

Here is some scripture that might help...

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

Ephesians 1:16-19a
16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Ephesians+1&submit=Lookup&display_option=columns&niv=yes#fen-NIV-29208f)] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints

Bing
Dec 21st 2006, 07:35 AM
This is from the OT where the punishment for sins was much harsher, because we were seperated from God. With Jesus' sacrifice we can now be forgiven of our sins.
I must pause to correct you there; AD and BC both, salvation is only through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Abraham was saved through faith just like you are, and punishment for sins has always been and will always be death. The only time when we see more or less 'severe' temporal punishments is when God is disciplining or judging, something that especially (I hesitate to say 'only') occurs when God's presence is manifestly tangible (Num 16, Acts 5, etc)

If I were to hazard a guess, I should think that John is alluding to times future, when the Lord will explicitly tell us - as He told Jeremiah - not to pray for certain people. Like the Amorites of Genesis 15:16, their iniquity will have become complete. They will have blasphemed the Holy Spirit (Matt 12), they will have seared their consciences (1 Tim 4:2), they will have reached the pinnacle of the Psalm 2 reality of rage against God. Unless God tells you somebody has reached that point (and I shudder to imagine any individual who has), I would advise you to pray for anybody you know who is lost, unrepentant, or hostile.

DSK
Dec 21st 2006, 02:21 PM
This is from the OT where the punishment for sins was much harsher, because we were seperated from God. With Jesus' sacrifice we can now be forgiven of our sins.


The main gist of my reply, was to show other examples from Scripture where the Lord specifically said not to pray for certain people. My reply didn't touch upon the topic of punishment.

ComeLordJesus
Dec 21st 2006, 07:03 PM
Like the Amorites of Genesis 15:16, their iniquity will have become complete. They will have blasphemed the Holy Spirit (Matt 12), they will have seared their consciences (1 Tim 4:2), they will have reached the pinnacle of the Psalm 2 reality of rage against God.

Wow another verse similar to the one I had a question about.:cry: I understand.

I thank you all for your responses and insights. I won't stop praying unless God does tell me NOT to do so. I can't know what God knows about other's hearts or souls.

I thank God that HE has stirred-up a conscience in a person I have been praying for years. Now maybe salvation will be accepted soon with repentance and sorrow for his sins against God.

Merry Christmas:pp

GodspromisesareYES
Dec 21st 2006, 09:34 PM
It is very important to note that the verse in question is not talking about unbeleivers- it is talking about brothers who are in a sin that is unto death. i was going to post the verses where God in other places tells ppl not to pray for certian others but it was done for me :) so heres this one since it is about beleivers not lost people.


Hbr 10:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=10&verse=26&version=kjv#26)¶For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

uscchica09
Dec 24th 2006, 05:24 AM
I must pause to correct you there; AD and BC both, salvation is only through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Abraham was saved through faith just like you are, and punishment for sins has always been and will always be death. The only time when we see more or less 'severe' temporal punishments is when God is disciplining or judging, something that especially (I hesitate to say 'only') occurs when God's presence is manifestly tangible (Num 16, Acts 5, etc)


We don't have to do anything for our forgiveness, but ask. This was not the case in the OT.

In the OT, it was specific sins that caused death. There were no second chances. Now, when we work on the Sabbath we do not have to be killed. We can ask God for forgiveness, because Jesus' death gave us life.

Bing
Dec 24th 2006, 08:44 AM
We don't have to do anything for our forgiveness, but ask. This was not the case in the OT.

In the OT, it was specific sins that caused death. There were no second chances. Now, when we work on the Sabbath we do not have to be killed. We can ask God for forgiveness, because Jesus' death gave us life.

Once more, that is not necessarily the case.

Firstly although I realise I am pulling apart semantics here, it is terribly misleading to claim that "we don't have to do anything for our forgiveness, but ask." This is not a Biblical assumption. We must repent of our sins. If we remain in them, if we remain unrepentant, we cannot expect forgiveness.

This is the same way that it has always been. Look at David: under the Law, he deserved death for his sins. He repented sincerely and his sacrifices were accepted (Ps 51:17-19) due to his repentance. These sacrifices fulfilled two roles: they were the outward manifestations of his heart, and they were a prophecy of the atonement that Christ would grant at Calvary.

There has never been a way outside of Christ to atone for sins, yet God has always forgiven those who repented. Likewise, we can today still have our sins erased through Christ and through Christ alone, should we choose to repent. I hope this clears things up for you!

SIG
Dec 24th 2006, 08:59 AM
I did a study a while back on prayer in the NT. It is almost always, if not totally, exclusively for believers.

This makes sense. We pray for the perseverence of the saints, so that they can fulfill the Great Comission. When others become saved, they in turn pray for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ.

liarsandmartyrs
Dec 24th 2006, 11:56 AM
I find this scripture to be quite an enigma.
On one hand we know from scripture that ALL sin leads to death because the wages of sin is death.
But on the other hand, the message of this scripture would conclude that one could see that the person sinning is refered to as a brother, usually this term is connected to the body of believers, but not always, so if a believer is sinning a sin that would lead to death we can only conclude that that sin would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This makes it even harder to understand as to we are not capable to know the hearts of man, only God has that ability, so how could we pray for the one who sin is leading to death?

But on yet another hand, we know from scripture that the prayers of a righteous man avails much. Could it be possible to intercede for a sinning brother, if that is the identification of the sinner, and God grant our intercession. Or could what is being asked here is that if we see a brother who is starting to backslide with the dangers of turning from God. I find this very hard to believe as well as i believe that once saved always saved. I do not believe that one can truely accept Jesus but then walk away from Jesus only to enter hell, knowing what he has left.

What this might be referring to is one who is not of the brethren, but brother as Jesus states in the parable of the Good Samaritan, as one who has compassion on another without regards to who they are. Brotherhood of mankind. Who might believe in Jesus but has yet to accept Him. But since this is a letter to one of the churches, then we definately know that this letter was written to a body of believers, who obviously were in need of instruction on fellowship and the way of Christian life. The secret, which is really no secret, to understanding this passage is found but a couple verses before v.14 says, "Now this is the confidence we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." So then it goes back to God knowing the hearts of men, and if we are in fellowship with God, and we are in line with Gods, will than He will guide us in every aspect of life, including who is in need of prayer and for what. Has anyone ever had God tell you, when you see someone on the street or in the store, that that person is in need of prayer? ComeLORDJesus, do not try to delve to far into a verse, many times if you drop back a couple of verses and read through a few ahead the answer will 9x's out of 10 answer the question. It can still sometimes be confusing even after you recieve an answer, but realize that you just might not be meant to understand that answer yet. God's timing and His answers sometimes are deffinately something I can not fully grasp hold of. But what can I say, His ways are not my ways, and his thoughts are not my thoughts.

I really hope that this has shed some light for you, and rally hope that I did not confuse you all the more. The deciding factor must still be God, as with everything else , though posting a qusetion here is good, always pray to God that He would reveil to you what His Word is saying.

Peace of Christ be with you.

uscchica09
Dec 24th 2006, 03:16 PM
Once more, that is not necessarily the case.

Firstly although I realise I am pulling apart semantics here, it is terribly misleading to claim that "we don't have to do anything for our forgiveness, but ask." This is not a Biblical assumption. We must repent of our sins. If we remain in them, if we remain unrepentant, we cannot expect forgiveness.

This is the same way that it has always been. Look at David: under the Law, he deserved death for his sins. He repented sincerely and his sacrifices were accepted (Ps 51:17-19) due to his repentance. These sacrifices fulfilled two roles: they were the outward manifestations of his heart, and they were a prophecy of the atonement that Christ would grant at Calvary.

There has never been a way outside of Christ to atone for sins, yet God has always forgiven those who repented. Likewise, we can today still have our sins erased through Christ and through Christ alone, should we choose to repent. I hope this clears things up for you!

You are getting into semantics and you keep thinking too far into what I'm saying. You're picking apart words and phrases that don't need to be.

I understand that you have to repent of your sins. I was speaking of the forgiveness that we now have. My point in saying all we have to do is ask, is in comparison to the sacrifices and things that had to be made in the OT.

Can we leave the semantics alone now?

ChristopherE
Dec 24th 2006, 08:15 PM
I find this scripture to be quite an enigma.
On one hand we know from scripture that ALL sin leads to death because the wages of sin is death.
But on the other hand, the message of this scripture would conclude that one could see that the person sinning is refered to as a brother, usually this term is connected to the body of believers, but not always, so if a believer is sinning a sin that would lead to death we can only conclude that that sin would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This makes it even harder to understand as to we are not capable to know the hearts of man, only God has that ability, so how could we pray for the one who sin is leading to death?

But on yet another hand, we know from scripture that the prayers of a righteous man avails much. Could it be possible to intercede for a sinning brother, if that is the identification of the sinner, and God grant our intercession. Or could what is being asked here is that if we see a brother who is starting to backslide with the dangers of turning from God. I find this very hard to believe as well as i believe that once saved always saved. I do not believe that one can truely accept Jesus but then walk away from Jesus only to enter hell, knowing what he has left.

What this might be referring to is one who is not of the brethren, but brother as Jesus states in the parable of the Good Samaritan, as one who has compassion on another without regards to who they are. Brotherhood of mankind. Who might believe in Jesus but has yet to accept Him. But since this is a letter to one of the churches, then we definately know that this letter was written to a body of believers, who obviously were in need of instruction on fellowship and the way of Christian life. The secret, which is really no secret, to understanding this passage is found but a couple verses before v.14 says, "Now this is the confidence we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." So then it goes back to God knowing the hearts of men, and if we are in fellowship with God, and we are in line with Gods, will than He will guide us in every aspect of life, including who is in need of prayer and for what.


I'm trying to grasp all your thoughts but I don't think it needs to be all that complicated. I think John was saying if you see a brother in sin, pray for them. As an interjection, he clarified he was not meaning to say pray for those sinning unto death. Yes, all sin is unto death, except that it be forgiven. So, if you have someone in the church sinning and denying the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of those sins, John does not say pray for that. Why? He knows God won't hear it - it will not be according to God's will (that's a good verse to focus on too). He wasn't saying if you see a brother sinning unto death at that point - he was saying if you see the sin unto death. Even in John's time there were wolves in sheep's clothing in the churches.

I think it's as simple as that but let me know if you see it otherwise.

ChristopherE
Dec 24th 2006, 11:44 PM
I did a study a while back on prayer in the NT. It is almost always, if not totally, exclusively for believers.

This makes sense. We pray for the perseverence of the saints, so that they can fulfill the Great Comission. When others become saved, they in turn pray for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ.

So what do we make of this?:

Mat 5:44 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=44&version=kjv#44)But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I'm not even sure where it fits in with my stance in this thread.

SIG
Dec 24th 2006, 11:48 PM
Rightly noticed ! This is one of the very few mentions in the NT of praying for the unsaved....

liarsandmartyrs
Dec 25th 2006, 12:18 AM
Christopher,
I guess I just got a little to winded. My point was that some of the scripture is a complete mystery to us, someitmes God reveals those to us and sometimes He does not for awhile. And that it is easy to see how we can come up with many different translations of a sripture, but the the end all result must be revelation from the Holy Spirit.
Sorry for the confusion

ikester7579
Dec 25th 2006, 11:46 AM
1John 5:16 says NOT to pray or interceed for people that sin unto death or unrepentant sinners.


This just seems wrong not to pray for them. What is your opinion please??

I have not read through this thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating what someone else might have already said.

The reason we do not pray for all sinners is because some sinners do not want God, nor are they even looking for God. So what good would it do to pray for them? God does not force Himself upon those who do not wish to know him. This is why salvation is a gift. It is given to those who wish to recieve it. Would it be a gift if it were forced upon us?

Also, God does not want us to waste time praying for those who could care less, and are unreachable by choice. So we could be wasting time praying for one person, when another is open minded to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

It's like the creation vs evolution debate. Neither side will convert unless by choice they are willing to do so.

calidog
Dec 25th 2006, 01:03 PM
1John 5:16 says NOT to pray or interceed for people that sin unto death or unrepentant sinners.


This just seems wrong not to pray for them. What is your opinion please??

After reading these and some historical commentaries, I conclude "we don't know."

But I am confident the Spirit would reveal it to oneself when the situation arises.

uscchica09
Dec 28th 2006, 04:21 AM
I have not read through this thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating what someone else might have already said.

The reason we do not pray for all sinners is because some sinners do not want God, nor are they even looking for God. So what good would it do to pray for them? God does not force Himself upon those who do not wish to know him. This is why salvation is a gift. It is given to those who wish to recieve it. Would it be a gift if it were forced upon us?

Also, God does not want us to waste time praying for those who could care less, and are unreachable by choice. So we could be wasting time praying for one person, when another is open minded to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

It's like the creation vs evolution debate. Neither side will convert unless by choice they are willing to do so.

We should always pray for someone's eyes to be opened to the Holy Spririt. If every Christian followed your philosophy, then we would be a selfish bunch.

The point is, how do you know who has the potential to recieve Christ and who doesn't? You don't, unless the Lord tells you. You should pray for whoever God has layed on your heart. If you see someone who is totally unwilling to listen, then you should definetly pray for the Holy Spirit to open their heart and mind. No where does the Bible tell us to give up on the lost(those that haven't committed blasphemy).

Look at Saul/Paul. He was a perfect example of a person totally unwilling to listen to Christianity. In fact, he ordered the killing of several Christians! However, God was able to turn him around. Not praying for someone and seeing them as a "lost cause" is limiting God and not a Christian attitude.

Here is some scripture I posted earlier...

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.


Ephesians 1:16-19a
16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Ephesians+1&submit=Lookup&display_option=columns&niv=yes#fen-NIV-29208f)] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints.

God wants all men to be saved and so should we. I don't see a "lost cause" attitude in these scriptures.

ComeLordJesus
Aug 28th 2007, 06:59 AM
:)I've reread these posts and really love the responses.

We are so blessed to have this message board to share the word with.

I have had peace about that scripture.

The closer I get to the Lord the more I know HE loves us more than our languages can express. We or I don't really have a clue about HIS greatness being LOVE HIMSELF. My mind just wants to explode trying to figure it out.....HIS love ....HE is just complex and enormous....but yet down to earth in some ways.

I am so glad we all know HIM.:pp

sorry I rambled on:rolleyes:

RogerW
Aug 28th 2007, 03:51 PM
1John 5:16 says NOT to pray or interceed for people that sin unto death or unrepentant sinners.


This just seems wrong not to pray for them. What is your opinion please??

1Jo 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting and He will be giving life to him; to those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that. 17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death.
Unless we understand what the sin unto death is, how can we know not to pray regarding this particular sin?

I am firmly convinced that not one of whom the Lord has eternally saved can every be lost. None who have received so great a salvation can fall away, and become eternally lost. It is necessary therefore to understand that Heb 6 is not saying believers can fall away from saving grace, but rather giving believers assurance that they will never be lost. This is why we read in Heb 6:9 “But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.”

And Heb 10:16,17 tells us that those whom the Lord makes a covenant with, He puts His laws in their hearts and minds, and their sins and iniquities are remembered no more. So clearly Heb 10:26 cannot be telling us that Christians who willfully sin can become lost, nor do we lack understanding that those born again will not continue in willful sin. What Heb 10:26 is speaking of are those, like the Jews who have received the Word of God, and understand Who Christ is, and what He came to accomplish, but these have not faith mixed with the gospel of salvation to enable them to turn away from their sin and be saved. These are those who trample the blood of Christ under foot, and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.

Neither does Heb 6 nor 10 teach of sin we are instructed not to pray for.

What specific sin is John referring to? The only sin that Christ says will never be forgiven in this life or eternal life to come is that of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What is this sin of blasphemy? It’s not just any blasphemy because even Paul committed blasphemy against Christ, but tells us it was forgiven him because he had done this in ignorance and unbelief (1Ti 1:13). The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the sin the Pharisee’s committed knowingly, and with the intention of trying to prove that Christ came not in the power of God, but in the power of the devil. The Pharisee’s knew that Christ had come from God, and that no one could work the miracles they had seen Him do unless God be with Him. Remember too that the Pharisee's were the teachers of the Jews, they searched the oracles of God daily, and understood the prophetic Word to come.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Knowing that Christ was sent from God the Pharisee’s, out of jealousy wanted people to believe the power Christ displayed through His many miracles done among them, were done through the power of the ruler of darkness. In doing this they hoped to discredit Christ, and turn the people back to the law, and follow them.

Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

This is the sin that John is saying we ought never to pray for. When we see those who know the power of God, and willfully tell others that this power is not of the Holy Spirit, then we understand they have committed a sin of blasphemy against the HS and this will not be forgiven them in this life or the life to come. No Christian will ever, could ever commit this willful sin against the Lord. Who in our day could or has committed this horrid sin, that we should not pray for them?

Blessings,
RW

Sold Out
Aug 28th 2007, 06:08 PM
1John 5:16 says NOT to pray or interceed for people that sin unto death or unrepentant sinners.


This just seems wrong not to pray for them. What is your opinion please??

We shouldn't pray for people who have quite obviously crossed the line of God's Mercy.