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irv
Jan 1st 2007, 07:42 PM
Only answer with scripture proof and let us see what the answer will be.


My scripture answer is (Eph. 4:11:12). “And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.”
From this I would say (Spiritual Gift, not a office).

judi<>><
Jan 1st 2007, 09:34 PM
From the same scripture, I would say Office..."gave" (didomi) can be defined as "appointed to an office" according to Strongs. This makes the most sense in this verse. These people are given "for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ." They are given an office within the church--apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher.

That said, I would not argue that all people who receive the gift of prophecy, evangelism, or teaching are necessarily appointed to an office in the church!

The Parson
Jan 1st 2007, 09:40 PM
Actually it is a desire that is fulfilled for the preacher as a gift from God. :D

1st Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Eph:4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

irv
Jan 1st 2007, 10:03 PM
From the same scripture, I would say Office..."gave" (didomi) can be defined as "appointed to an office" according to Strongs. This makes the most sense in this verse. These people are given "for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ." They are given an office within the church--apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher.

That said, I would not argue that all people who receive the gift of prophecy, evangelism, or teaching are necessarily appointed to an office in the church!

Giving another scripture not to give a private interpretation, I find in 1 Corinthians 12 “now concerning spiritual gifts,...” verse 1 and then from verses 8 – 11 it talks about the gifts, and prophecy is mention, so it takes a prophet to give prophecy and this is one of the thing mention in Eph 4:11. I would say according to scripture it is a spiritual gift.

As far as the comment you made "I would not argue that all people who receive the gift of ...pastor ...are necessarily appointed to an office in the church!" I fully agree with you on this statement, which makes me say that none should be appointed to an office. The only offices found in the early church was elders and decons.

judi<>><
Jan 1st 2007, 10:36 PM
:hmm: Perhaps we are dealing with a problem with "appointment?" :hmm:

irv
Jan 1st 2007, 10:49 PM
:hmm: Perhaps we are dealing with a problem with "appointment?" :hmm:

I am and elder in a local assemble of believers and when we see someone with the gift of pastor/teacher we allow that person to teach and use his gift. It is not an appointment, it is recognizing the person and the gift and then encouraging that person to use the gift for the edifying of the body. It all works according to God Word.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 2nd 2007, 05:52 AM
Irv,
i believe there's a little bit of confusion going on regarding the gifts of the spirit becoming a way to appoint a person for whatever position, to me that smacks of human interferrence of what man deems the correct way.

To me it appears certain people are appointed, no matter what. I would say if they are appointed by God, then they will automatically come with the gifts needed for that position. So i believe appointment comes first, even if through manifestation of a certain gift through the Spirit. Heh, circular reasonsing strikes again. But Yeshua said he was the alpha and the omega and that's circular too. LOL

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues.

Just my two cents.

irv
Jan 2nd 2007, 01:29 PM
Thank you Jesusinmyheart,
I like your two cents, and thank you for using scripture. Truly it is God who does the appointing.

judi<>><
Jan 2nd 2007, 02:30 PM
Just so!
Appoint: To select or designate to fill an office or a position

It has always been God who gives the gifts that can be developed by the individual (skills). God also gives the calling (desire) to the individual. God is also the one who appoints. Appointments within a denomination (or a local church--whether called an appointment or "recognizing the person and the gift and then encouraging that person to use the gift for the edifying of the body") are a response to the realization that God has already appointed this person for the office.

I still say, the five gifts mentioned in the above verse are "office gifts."

uric3
Jan 2nd 2007, 07:23 PM
I have noticed for sometime on these boards that a lot of people talk about how their pastor preaches etc... and sometimes I think some people don't know what the term pastor means. I know it might be nit picky but just wanted to take a moment to bring this out. When you study about the term a Pastor is a Bishop or Elder. All three terms talk about the same office. So to be a Pastor one must fit the qualifications of a Bishop/Elder to be one. Which are outlined in Titus 1:5-9 and 1st Tim 3:1-7.

There are five terms total that I know of in the NT that is used to describe the office of an Elder. They are

Term Greek Word Define

Elder of Presbyter Presbureros An older man or senior

Overseer or Bishop Episcopos A guardian or superintendent

Sheperd or Pastor Poimen Metaphoric term (tending flocks)

Steward Oikonomo Metaphoric term (treasurer)

Eldership Presbuterion Group of older men/elders


How do we know these all refer to the same office lets looks at some passages

Acts 20:17, 28 "17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church." "28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood."

When read in context he is talking to the same group of people throughout this section 17,28 we can see he refers to them as Presbureros which if you look at the chart above is Elder or Presbyter he refers to them as Episcopos which is Overseer or Bishop and he refers to them as Poimen which is Sheperd or Pastor you could see either of these terms used depending upon which translation you are using.

Also Titus 1:5, 7 "5The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you." "7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;"

We see the same thing he refers to them as Presbureros which is
Elder of Presbyter also as Episcopos which is Overseer or Bishop and lastly he refers to them as Oikonomo which is a steward.

Lastly in 1st Peter 5:1-2 "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;"

We see him refer to them as Presbureros which once again is an Elder or Presbyter and then we see him refer to them as Poimen which is Sheperd or Pastor. All there terms are used in such a fashion to refer to the same office.

I think people fail to notice this because they don't recognize that the English terms "Elder and Presbyter come from the same Greek word "Presbureros". That the English terms "Overseer and Bishop come from the same Greek word "Episcopos". And that the English terms "Shepherd and Pastor come from the same Greek word "Poimen". Part of the confusion is that one Bible translation will consistently translation the Greek word "Presbureros" as "Elder, while another translation will render the same Greek word "Presbureros" as Presbyter. Nothing wrong with these translations, but people simply do not look closely enough to notice what is really going on between translations. And that the same office is being talked about its just a different word to describe the work of the position. Because an Elder is to over see the flock and pastor us, etc...

Greek Word 1. Presbureros, 2. Episcopos, 3. Poimen, 4.Baptizo

Basic meaning 1. Elder, 2. Overseer, 3. Shepard, 4.Immersion

Words that cause confusion 1.Presbyter, 2.Bishop 3. Pastor, 4.Baptism

So why did God use four different terms to describe one office? Simple because they all deal with what work needs to be done in that office.
Elder - indicates an older man with wisdom that can only come from age and experience.

Overseer - indicates a position of top authority, one who is in charge and makes all final decisions for the local congregation.

Shepherd - is a metaphoric term that indicates the men are to show love, care, dedication and self sacrifice for the members as sheep. The men are not literally Shepherding sheep, but are doing so in a metaphoric sense that everyone immediately understands.

Steward - indicates a man who can be trusted with great treasures. Of course the greatest of these treasures, are the souls of the local church members, over whom he is in charge. But it also indicates the fact that the men are also in charge of the churches financial assets, including church buildings and the weekly collection of money from the church on the first day of every week through freewill offerings.

So when you refer to the person who is preaching as your pastor does he fit the qualifcations of an elder or are you calling him something hes not?

Because after all I preach but I don't fit the qualifcations of an elder.

Anyway I hope this helps any commets or questions are welcome but I thought I would just bring this out since so many people on this board seem to use the term so loosely.

So all in all its a office... to answer your question...

irv
Jan 2nd 2007, 08:02 PM
Uric3,
I am very impressed with your knowledge of scripture and your answer. I fully agree with it.
When I started this discussion with the Question “According to Scripture, is paster an office or spiritual gift? I wanted to see how many really understand that the only offices in scripture is Bishops (Elder) and Deacons. The scripture does make a distinction between the two, because when you get to verse 8 of 1 Timothy 3 it says, “In like manner must the deacons.....” Comparing the two offices.
I also agree with you that some are given the gift of teaching but they do not hold the office of Elders/Deacons just because they can teach. But an Elder is apt to teach (1 Tim. 3:2).
Thank you for your input, and with your input you have shown the point I was trying to get our here. I believe you do have the gift of teaching by your answer to this post.
By the way, I use Linux also, am NOT a windows lover!

Offering of Praise
Jan 3rd 2007, 08:28 PM
God calls all to live for and serve Him but he calls specific people to do specific things based on the abilities He blessed that person with. A lot of people want to be Pastors whom God did not call to be a pastor. It is a calling and it is a gift of the Spirit all in one. God equiped me to be a Pastor, but also called me and anointed me to the same.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 3rd 2007, 08:48 PM
God calls all to live for and serve Him but he calls specific people to do specific things based on the abilities He blessed that person with. A lot of people want to be Pastors whom God did not call to be a pastor.

I returned to this thread to post just that same thought: that not all that are pastors, bishops, or whatever have been so appointed by God.

I would dare say that some have "appointed" themselves....

I think i'll go look at appointed, chosen and such words, to see what the difference is.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 3rd 2007, 09:07 PM
Mar 3:14 He appointed 4160 [5656]twelve, that they might be with him, and that he might send them out to preach,
Mar 3:15 and to have authority to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:
NASB

The KJV uses "ordained" in this verse.

This verse uses:
G4160
ποιέω
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

Luk 6:13 And when day came, he called4377 his disciples and chose1586 [5671] twelve of them, whom he also named apostles:

While this one uses:

G4377
προσφωνέω
prosphōneō
pros-fo-neh'-o
From G4314 and G5455; to sound towards, that is, address, exclaim, summon: - call unto, speak (un-) to.


G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
ek-leg'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen.

Which reminds me of the verse of:

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Is this speaking of anyone, or those appointed also ?

We see that Yeshua called his disciples, but chose only the 12 he picked, i believe the text infers there were more than 12 to chose from, or esle the word "chose" would not have been there.

Also, are any called good enough to receive a teaching from ?

Just pondering some points.

irv
Jan 6th 2007, 02:35 PM
Uric3,

I know I said I agreed with your post, but after taking a very close look at it and studying the scripture, I have to say I am going to recant my earlier remarks on agreeing with you. First, I think something must be clear, a Pastor is not the same as a Elder/Bishop. It says in 1 Timothy 3:1 “...if a man desires the office of a Bishop...” (By the way I believe we agree that Elder and Bishop are the same because it is used interchangeable in Titus 1: 5 and 7. Verse 5 uses elders and 7 bishop and was talking about the same office. Elder [Greek presbuteros] and bishop [Greek episkopos = overseer] designate the same office). Now this is an office just like in 1 Timothy deacons are an office also.


I agree with you on your terms of the Greek words as defined, but the application is wrong. First the functions of Elders/Bishops have nothing to do with the gift of pastoring. Oh yes, there duties entail pastoring, shepherding or tending the flock, but one can do this without the gift of pastor.


Now looking at the gift of pastor/teacher as found in Ephesians 4:11, the Holy Spirit is seen as enduing the members of the body of Christ with spiritual gifts, or enablements for a varied service; here certain Spirit-endued men, i.e. apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are themselves the gifts whom the glorified Christ bestows upon His body the Church. In 1 Corinthians, the gifts are spiritual enablements for specific service; in Ephesians, the gifts are men who have such enablements. There's where the difference come in.


Now an Elder/Bishop is Apt to teach, but this does not mean he has the gift, and this hold true with pastoring. Now I believe that a father is to pastor his family. If he has children he is to tend the flock so to speak. I believe the church as a whole has error on this point. The gift of pastor teacher is not an office.


I would like to mention; have you notice that in the New Testament when ever Paul went on a missionary journey they always call the elders together in the churches not the pastor.


You said at the end of your post you preach but don't fit the qualifications of an elder. Have you ever thought, and from the looks of your post, I would say you have the gift of pastor/teacher but you do not qualify as an elder. This fits my argument on this subject.


It goes like this: Christ is the head of his body (His church), the elders are the governing office, and the gifted men are the edifiers of the body. Very simple, but it work.


Thank for hearing me out.
Irv

irv
Jan 7th 2007, 01:15 PM
Imaginary things should not be called Christian doctrine, Christian practice, or Christian ideology.

There is no such thing as an "office" of pastorship because it is not spoken of in Scripture. The concept of "office" is a human contrivance. A person is either a pastor, or he is not.

Jelena.
I agree with you on your statement "There is no such thing as an office 'of pastorship...'", but disagree that the concept of 'office' is a human contrivance. Look in 1 Tim 3:1 and it speaks of 'office' of a Bishop. The word office is in scripture. and the last part of your statement is true. Either you have the gift of pastor or you don't. There are many self appointed pastors in the church today.

MeHere
Jan 7th 2007, 07:02 PM
Imaginary things should not be called Christian doctrine, Christian practice, or Christian ideology.

There is no such thing as an "office" of pastorship because it is not spoken of in Scripture. The concept of "office" is a human contrivance. A person is either a pastor, or he is not.

Jelena.

Yes its a spiritual work. And there are those who are identified with being responsible to feed the flock of God, over which the Holy Ghost has made them overseers. (Acts 20).

Interestingly, in Acts 20, the Ephesian elders are mentioned in the plural.

For some reason, much of Protestantism has carried over the one-man ministerhood practised by Roman Catholicism, whereas in the New Testament the emphasis is on plurality within a congregation.

uric3
Jan 9th 2007, 04:01 PM
I could be wrong but I beg to differ... the term pastor refers to the office of an elder. Here is why

Acts 20 reinforces a doctrine about terminology used with regard to the pastoral ministry. In verse 17, the men who are called together are referred to as "elders." The Greek word there is "presbuturos." In verse 28, Paul refers to these same men as "overseers." That Greek word is "episkopos." It literally means "overseer" or "superintendent" and was used in the first century as a designation for the leader of secular projects as well. It is used 7 times in the New Testament and is translated "bishop" in the other 6 occurrences. That means that these very same "elders" are also referred to as "bishops" in the same address by Paul. There is no distinction in scripture between "elders" and "bishops" with regard to their position in the church.

I don't think we have any disputes there... I think we agree that both the term elder and bishop are the same office.

One more technical clarification is in order here. Verse 28 also contains the Greek verb, "poimaino," translated "feed" here. The definition of this word is "to tend a flock as a shepherd." It just so happens that the noun form of this word, "poimaine" is translated "shepherd" in every scriptural occurrence except one, Ephesians 4:11, where it is translated "pastor."

Now when we look at this this is the same context here in verse 28 of Acts 28 and the term poimaino is used which is translated shepard when he is refering to the elders. That is the same term found in Eph 4:11 which was used to refer to the elders in Acts 20:28

I think one can teach and not be able to pastor... I can "feed" the flock with Gods word but I don't feel I can tend to them as a shepherd due to fact I don't have faithful kid(s) (yet). I just have one son and hes 3 months old a little to young for me to meet that qualification yet... also 1st Tim 3:4 says Children so I don't have more than one yet... so I fall short there as well... maybe when I am older lord willing I'll be blessed with being an elder or deacon...

I think being able to teach and being able to pastor is two different things... because as mentioned before the term poimaino is translated every time as a shephard save that one time... and I feel that because one can teach doesn't mean he can shephard the flock.

Thats just my feelings on the matter, sorry it took some time for me to reply... but anyway let me know what you think.

irv
Jan 9th 2007, 04:39 PM
Uric3

Uric3
I could be wrong but I beg to differ... the term pastor refers to the office of an elder.
The problem I have with believing a pastor is an elder is the fact that a pastor is a gift, where an elder is an office which requires qualification and is not listed in the gifts given to the church. That is not to say that an elder could not have the gift of pastor. I am just saying they are not the same thing as found in the scripture.
The problem believing a pastor and elder are the same brings in the factor that we appoint pastors by qualification and the one with the gift is now overlooked. We end up with those holding the [office], and remember I don't believe it is an office, by those who do not have the gift of pastor. (Self-appointed not gifted men and women in a places they don't belong). Also remember that the word elders is plural, we should have more than one elder in office. It is not the one gifted with pastor that is governing the church but a board of elders.

irv
Sep 11th 2008, 05:33 PM
I know this is a older post I started some time ago, but I just finished a book on this subject:
Pagan Christianity
By Frank Viola & George Barna
Tyndale House

I didn't agree with everything in the book, but the author made some very good points. I thought I would just past this info on to those who might be interested.
Irv

IPet2_9
Sep 11th 2008, 06:14 PM
I think pastor can be both an office and a gift. Just as music can be both an office and a gift--one can be gifted at music but have no outlet. One can be a music minister and sing off-key.

irv
Sep 11th 2008, 06:29 PM
I think pastor can be both an office and a gift. Just as music can be both an office and a gift--one can be gifted at music but have no outlet. One can be a music minister and sing off-key.
From a human stand-point you are right with your statement, but not from a scriptural stand-point.
I still hold to the fact that pastor is not referred to as an office in scripture. It is a gift. Some who hold the office of Ender could have the gift of pastor/teacher, but that still does not make it an office.

Sold Out
Sep 11th 2008, 10:48 PM
Something else that should be pointed out is that there are gifts FOR the church and gifts TO the church. In Ephesians, we see the four gifts that God gave TO the church:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph 4:11

A calling to full-time ministry (in the capacity of pastor/preacher) is one of these gifts. By the same token, a person who is called can possess any number of gifts. Our pastor's main gift is teaching, then shepherding. My son is called into full-time ministry, and his main gift is evangelism, then faith. So there are a lot of variables concerning the office of pastor and how it relates to spiritual gifts.

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Romans 11:29

irv
Sep 11th 2008, 11:17 PM
Something else that should be pointed out is that there are gifts FOR the church and gifts TO the church. In Ephesians, we see the four gifts that God gave TO the church:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph 4:11

A calling to full-time ministry (in the capacity of pastor/preacher) is one of these gifts. By the same token, a person who is called can possess any number of gifts. Our pastor's main gift is teaching, then shepherding. My son is called into full-time ministry, and his main gift is evangelism, then faith. So there are a lot of variables concerning the office of pastor and how it relates to spiritual gifts.

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Romans 11:29
Just a little food for thought! If any one was qualified to hold the office of pastor it would have been Paul, but he was just a tent maker with the gift of apostle. The office of pastor is man made not God ordained. A pastor/teacher is a gift.

jamesand57
Sep 12th 2008, 01:28 AM
Just a little food for thought! If any one was qualified to hold the office of pastor it would have been Paul, but he was just a tent maker with the gift of apostle. The office of pastor is man made not God ordained. A pastor/teacher is a gift.


Just a side note, the Word Office never appears in the New Testament, its thrown in by translators to clarify, though it also interjects a interpretation into the text.

irv
Sep 12th 2008, 12:57 PM
Just a side note, the Word Office never appears in the New Testament, its thrown in by translators to clarify, though it also interjects a interpretation into the text.
In 1 Timothy 3:1 it reads “This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.”
Looking at the original Greek word “episkophs” from where we get our translation “Office” it could be translated “Supervision” also. This implies “Office” or implies someone in charge, or someone who needs to make decisions. To me office is a good translation. But the only office in the NT was Bishop (Elder) or Deacons. Back to my statement, there is no office of pastor found in scripture.
Maybe I should add the word "Office" does appear 21 times in the NT, but I didn't look up all the Greek just this one.