PDA

View Full Version : name it claim it



ChristsCourage
Jan 3rd 2007, 04:44 PM
What does the whole "name it, claim it" expression mean when we are talking about the bible and religion? Scripture would really help. Thanks.

Frances
Jan 3rd 2007, 05:18 PM
Some folk believe that God is rather like a Genie in a bottle - that whatever they choose to 'name and claim' God will ensure they get.

I, on the other hand, believe He is my Sovereign Lord, and though I may ask Him for something (eg a parking place on a busy street) my request is always 'providing it is His Will'.

Diggindeeper
Jan 3rd 2007, 09:11 PM
JesusMan23, you are probably wondering why hardly no one is replying to your post. Well, first of all, you need to know that this is straight out of the Word of Faith teachings, and there is much wrong about it. I'll try to explain.

You see, if we as humans were so-o-o powerful that we could just "name it and claim it", we would not need God. This takes all things out of God's hand and puts them within OUR OWN POWER. Oh, it would be nice if we could do that, but think for a moment...if ALL we need do is "name it and claim it", then long ago I would have claimed that EVERYONE is a Christian now. Obviously, that is a fantasy to think or imagine that we have the same power as God Almighty.

I would "name" every sickness, disease and imfirmity, and claim them all healed. Again, no matter how much we name and claim, people are still sick, diseased and have all kinds of infirmities!

I have even heard some who "claim" things that are not true. For example, I know a young woman who was so-o-o faithful in church and always asked for prayers for her husband to stop drinking and be saved. But then, she met a young man who told her, "Just confess that he does not drink any more. Confess it everyday until it comes to pass. What we say is what we get."

So, she did...she spent every day walking around saying, "My husband is not an alcoholic. He does not drink. He is delivered in Jesus name." She stopped asking for prayer for him at church, and she spent more and more time with her young, single, new teacher who was teaching her all these NEW things! Finally, after many months her husband showed up at church one Sunday, but she would not sit with him...she sat with her new teacher!

Her husband went to pray at the altar. But she did not acknowledge his presense there at all. She ended up ditching her husband, and married the teacher of her NEW revelations. Before long, she divorced him, too.

Yes, this is an extreme example, but a true one. You see, she was confessing a lie!

Her husband was still drinking. She stopped asking God for help and instead she imagined SHE could remedy that with her words, her "confession". JesusMan, can you see the error in this? You see, her faith was in HER WORDS!

But our faith MUST be in God, not in our words! Our faith cannot even be in "our faith"! (Some say, if you have more faith, you will be healed, or delivered, etc...but, that is faith in our faith! NOT faith in God!)

Name it and claim it teachers always quote this scripture passage, and my bet is that they told you this:

Mark 11:23-24
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.


But...they fail to teach the verse just prior to that, which says:
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. Mark 11:22

It might pay you to read what some Apologetic Researchers say about all this. You see, this board does not subscribe to Word of Faith, but we have reasons for that. For your benefit, here are a couple of research sites that you can start with.
(There are many others, but this can get you started.)

Apologetics for Christians
http://www.afcministry.com/Faith_Movement.htm (http://www.afcministry.com/Faith_Movement.htm)

Apologetics Index:
Apologetics research resources on religious cults and sects
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf)

I sure hope this helps you, JesusMan! I pray it does.

Realist1981
Jan 3rd 2007, 09:27 PM
I named and claimed a Michigan Win. It no workie though:(

VerticalReality
Jan 3rd 2007, 10:18 PM
I, personally, believe it depends on what you're naming and claiming. If it's something that is provided under God's grace through Jesus Christ, you can name and claim it in faith and you'll have it. What Jesus Christ provided through the cross is all a part of God's grace. We don't earn it. We simply accept it by faith.

Through the cross I have salvation. Through the cross I have health. Through the cross all principalities and powers are beneath my feet. Through the cross no weapon formed against me shall prosper. Through the cross He that is in me is greater than He that is in the world. Through the cross I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me.

However, I'm not going to go out and start naming and claiming stuff that is apart from God's sovereign will.

jono
Jan 4th 2007, 11:46 PM
What does the whole "name it, claim it" expression mean when we are talking about the bible and religion? Scripture would really help. Thanks.

We recently did an article on this.. as for every scripture people will give you regarding how its biblical there are others regarding the way PAUL lived that show differently...

davidshultz
Jan 5th 2007, 02:45 AM
Its not really biblical. People think they can just claim thing in GOD'S name and they ust get it. many times its selfish motives of the heart that make people do that, i find it quite annoying.

quiet dove
Jan 5th 2007, 06:42 AM
I didnt read through all the post so hope I am note quoting anyone, it is unintentional but felt for some reason hindered by it at the moment.

There is not Bible verse that truly supports "name it and claim it" teaching. Only verses that are misinterpreted and then used by people to teach "name it and claim it". Name it and claim it gives power to humans and power to the words they speak. In other words, if I say "gee you look like you are getting a cold", depending on the level a "name it and claim it"follower is at, this could really upset them because they see it as I just confessed a cold "over" them.

There is a fuzzy line between a "good outlook and trusting faith in God" and having a "positive attitude" with the NICI (name it claim it abbreviation folks) a person can begin to think they have the power to "control" not only there life but life. If you have enough faith and are living right you can have the power. After all, Jesus said,

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

This passage doesnt bestow some kind of power to "us" independent of God's will and His plan for us, His plan we should diligently seek. If we are trusting, loving, seeking His will, His plan for us, we wont be seeking to have "power" or "control", not even over our own lives, for it is no longer ourselves we should seek to please, each and every one of us belongs to Jesus. NICI makes God a puppet, to cater to our words.

This is an area I experienced so if you have a question I will do my best to answer it. This is my experience in a nut shell, sorta, LOL

In 1980 we got into a "soap selling" business. It mixed religion and business or should I say religion and success. I really didnt understand fully what I was being taught, I know that sounds stupid. I was very young, very confused and can understand how a person could get caught up in a cult. I was just having fun going places and seeing and meeting people, same with church. I did desire the truth. Not that there is any way I would credit myself with being set free from it all. The Bible says "seek and you will find" I dont believe Jesus to turn anyone away who wants the truth. My husband wised up quicker than I did. We had a family tragedy and I knew that the people involved had not "confessed" this to happen and from there, some how, by the mercy and grace of our Savior, He brought me to a more solid understanding of . . . Himself. How can I explain that, I'm not sure I can. I understood salvation, but He brought me to an understanding of my place and an understanding of His place. Not me person, Him God. But a deeper understanding of Himself.

Getting free from bad teaching is difficult. I had to buy a whole new Bible. Not because there was anything wrong with the version I had. It wasnt a "groups" Bible, it was just a Bible. It can take years to fully recover, for lack of a better word.

I dont mean to sound harsh with anyone who is misled by the NICI teaching or any other "postitive attitude" religious teaching. I met some truly wonderful people, some good people.

Offering of Praise
Jan 5th 2007, 07:00 AM
I don't think if I confess that I will be a millionaire that it's gonna happen after so much confessing, but there is great power and blessing in confessing and praying the word of God.

Someone mentioned not getting a Michigan win after confessing it. True Story. In the playoffs last year. Pittsburgh and Indy. The referee made a horrible call and Indy got set up for a game winning field goal. In front of witnesses I declared that God would not let Indy win the game and that the field goal would be missed to even out the bad call and it was.

I prayed time and again that God would give the steelers a SB win for Jerome and it happened.

Most of the name it claim it stuff I have received has come in the form of spiritual blessings and ministry opportunities.

quiet dove
Jan 5th 2007, 07:24 AM
I wanted to put this and forgot.

I do believe our words are important, but not in the way NICI teaches. There are many verses in the Bible about the tongue, and how we should and should not use it.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

These are just a few
Psalms 145:21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
Proverbs 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

the J Man
Jan 5th 2007, 07:45 AM
JesusMan23, you are probably wondering why hardly no one is replying to your post. Well, first of all, you need to know that this is straight out of the Word of Faith teachings, and there is much wrong about it. I'll try to explain.

That is not tue what you are saying. I am a WOF believer and certainly you cannot just go out and name and claim whatever you like, whenever you lie, however you like, and expect it to happen. Yes faith and believing God is important, and I do realize that important of Words(speaking negative is contrary to faith), but if you want the blessings of the Lord, if you want to walk in His fullness, you must live a holy and rightoues life, you must wait upon the Lord, blessings will come when you are ready for them, not necessarily when you want them. When it comes to health, you must take care of your body. Many people get sick because of their eating habits, because they dont take proper care of themselves. God also wants to build maturity in people. You can't just go out and expect everything to come to your doorstep. You've got to be willing to work for things if you want to get ahead in life.

There are reasons why people don't receive the blessings and favor of God. Awhile back I did a thread on why people don't receive the blessings of God You can log into at http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=46750 The reason why I did that thread, is to explain the principles behind why many are not living a blesed life. It is not because God doesn't want us to.






I have even heard some who "claim" things that are not true. For example, I know a young woman who was so-o-o faithful in church and always asked for prayers for her husband to stop drinking and be saved. But then, she met a young man who told her, "Just confess that he does not drink any more. Confess it everyday until it comes to pass. What we say is what we get."

Understand that God gave man a freewill. yes, we can pray for each other, but each has to make a willing choice to serve God and the person drinking has to choose to want to give up alcohol.




Her husband went to pray at the altar. But she did not acknowledge his presense there at all. She ended up ditching her husband, and married the teacher of her NEW revelations. Before long, she divorced him, too.

That's her own sin that got her in that mess.



Yes, this is an extreme example, but a true one. You see, she was confessing a lie!

No, actually, she wasn't walking the walk.




Her husband was still drinking.

People still need deliverance from things too. Deliverance is getting free from the powers of darkness by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is getting demons our of a person, destroying their influence on someone, it is setting the captives free from bondage whether it be physically, emotionally or spiritually. Many need deliverance from addictions. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. He seeks after whom he may devour. He uses addictions to do so. Jesus Christ is the ONe who can break the yoke, but the prson has to be willig to submit to Him and allow HIm to do that. Then it is also important to contimue serving the Lord, because Satan is always looking for a way to come back to a person and bring them back into sin.




Name it and claim it teachers always quote this scripture passage, and my bet is that they told you this:

[SIZE=2]Mark 11:23-24
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]

That just tells you that you must beleive what you are praying for and not be in doubt. That doesn't mean you can name and claim whatever you like and expect to get it. You must pray according to God's will.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 5th 2007, 08:59 AM
The NICI-camp has several varieties. Some of the are extreme, telling us we can name and claim almost anything and get it. Others, like my friend in the previous post, say we need to stick to what the Bible tells us, stick to Biblical promises.

As far as I can tell, the heart of the issue lies in these two principle: words have power and faith has power. These two ideas lead to the concept that you need to speak what God has promised you so that it will come to pass. God has promised you victory over sin, so you need to speak that victory. If you do so in faith, believing that Christ has already won the victory, you will be victorious. In itself, this is not altogether bad. I believe it is helpful to repeat the promises of God to yourself once in a while, because we humans have a terrible tendency to forget.

This is different, however, from speaking it until you experience it or see it. Proponents of the above mentioned ideas remind us that life and death is in the power of the tongue and if I only speak to the mountain, it will be removed. God spoke and it was; since we are made in God's image, God has given our words similar power. Though it is good to remind yourself of what the Bible says, receiving its promises stand apart from our speaking them or not. Faith does not rest on what we say; if faith rests on anything, it rests on the condition of our heart and what we actually do. I can speak my healing until the cows come home, but what good is that going to do me? Instead, if I have a heart that believes and trusts God, He will heal me. And if He doesn't...well, He doesn't.

We cannot speak our desires into existence. God says ask and you will receive - so it is still asking, not a technique or method of speaking it until you see it.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 5th 2007, 11:08 AM
A big problem with the NICI doctrine is the concept of how things work in the spiritual realm. NICI proponents believe words have power and that as they speak those words, they affect something in the spiritual realm. To a certain extent this is true - our words do have an impact in the spiritual realm. People often say that prayer moves the Hand that moves the world.

Yet this is precisely where the subtle but crucial difference is laid bare: our words do not mean anything outside of the power and Person of God. Our words, in and of themselves, are powerless. They only gain power once connected with the Person of God and empowered by the Spirit of God. A fundemental mistake made by NICI proponents is thinking that words have power simply because they are spoken. This is simply another form of witchcraft - changing reality by ourselves through some formula, technique, or method of our own. Only God can change reality, and we are fully dependent on Him for everything we are.

Words only have power as they are connected with faith - faith in God's promises, faith in the fact that God will hear our prayer, faith that God will honor His Word and the faith of His servant. Words alone and even words spoken in faith can never accomplish anything in and of themselves.

the J Man
Jan 5th 2007, 05:34 PM
The NICI-camp has several varieties. Some of the are extreme, telling us we can name and claim almost anything and get it. Others, like my friend in the previous post, say we need to stick to what the Bible tells us, stick to Biblical promises.

As far as I can tell, the heart of the issue lies in these two principle: words have power and faith has power.

Proverbs6:2 does say that your own words ensare you. Proverbs18:21 mention that life and death are in the power of the tongue. The word of God is telling straight out that negative words will ensare you. I see many christians speaking negative about their situations. That is not faith when you speak negative. You are not believing. Proverbs18:21 telling you that life and death are in the power of the tongue, therefore what you speak wil effect you. I used to be a very negative person and it got me nowhere.Others would tell me straigt out to stop complaining and stop thinking negative for it will get me nowhere. Even some non-believers saw the principle in thinking positive and that if you want to succeed in life,,you gotta think positive and believe you can do it. Even some non-believers would tell me that a "I can't" attitude will get you nowhere. I see many christians walk around with a "I can't" attitude.


These two ideas lead to the concept that you need to speak what God has promised you so that it will come to pass. God has promised you victory over sin, so you need to speak that victory.

Faith is an action word. What you speak from yuor mouth comes from your heart. That is what your believing inside of you. If you go out looking for a job, and you believe your goig to find one, you will speak it. If someone ask you, "so do you really thinkyour going to find a job soon?" If you beleive you will, you will have no problem answering, "of course I will." That is faith. In mark5:25-34, you read of the woman with an issue of blood. She beleived that Jesus would heal her and spoke the words, "If I could just touch the hem of His garment, I would be made whole." She spoke what she believed. If she ahd wavering faith and had doubt in her, do you think she would have went pushed her way through the crowd to touch the hem of Jesus' garment?


If you do so in faith, believing that Christ has already won the victory, you will be victorious. In itself, this is not altogether bad. I believe it is helpful to repeat the promises of God to yourself once in a while, because we humans have a terrible tendency to forget.

It's not just helpful, it's important.




We cannot speak our desires into existence. God says ask and you will receive - so it is still asking, not a technique or method of speaking it until you see it.

You prayer do have to be in line with the will of God. You cn ask the Lord to bless you that you will own an airport if that is not in His will. You cannot ask the Lord to bless you with musical talent, if He hasn't ordained you to be a musician. But Jeremiah29:11 does say that the Lod has god plans for His people. Many christians accept defeat and believe that it must be God's will for them to live like that.

Jesus says in John15:7, "If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it will be done unto you." If you are abding in the Lord, living a life of prayer seeking the Lord, you will ask according to His will for your life, and it will be done unto you. of course, you can't leave out the word "abide." Many chrsitiasn don't spend much time in prayer, they don't read and study the Word much, I also see some christians who's hearts are not after the things of God, who are wordly, who treat others badly. They cnnot expect to receive the blessings of the Lord. The Lord expects people to get their heart right with first(see 2nd Chrionicles7:14 and Proverbs1:28,29). Disoebdeince to the will of God is sin. If you want the blessings of God, live holy and righteous as His Word tells you. Some christians are doing that.

the J Man
Jan 5th 2007, 05:41 PM
A big problem with the NICI doctrine is the concept of how things work in the spiritual realm. NICI proponents believe words have power and that as they speak those words, they affect something in the spiritual realm. To a certain extent this is true - our words do have an impact in the spiritual realm. People often say that prayer moves the Hand that moves the world.

Also understand that you have a spirit enemy(see 1st Peter5:8 and Ephesians6:12). If you speak negative, yuo do give the enemy permission. Spiritual warfare is very real. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy(John10:10). he wants to hinder your blessings, he wants you to fail, he wants you to destruct. You do have to take authority over him in the name of Jesus. When Jesus sent out His disciples in matthew10:1-8, and the 70 followers in Luke10:1-19, He gave them power over the works of Satan. Why did he give them power? Because Satan has people in bondage. The powers of darkness need to be borken in poeple's lives 1st John3:8 mentions that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devl. Acts10:38 says that jesus ealed those who wer eoppressed by the devil.

Many sicknesses and diseases are demonic. In Luke13:11-13, Jesus heals a woman and cast out a demon spirit of infirmity that had her bound for 18 years. Jesus heals a blind man in Matthew12:22. He casts out a demon spirit that caused him to be blind. Some sicknesses, you need to take authority over the adversary working against you. Jesus did that, so did the apostles. In Acts5:12-16, some of the people who they got healed, were vexed with demons. There are instances where we nmeed to do that too.

Marcat1702003
Jan 5th 2007, 05:54 PM
I, personally, believe it depends on what you're naming and claiming. If it's something that is provided under God's grace through Jesus Christ, you can name and claim it in faith and you'll have it. What Jesus Christ provided through the cross is all a part of God's grace. We don't earn it. We simply accept it by faith.

Through the cross I have salvation. Through the cross I have health. Through the cross all principalities and powers are beneath my feet. Through the cross no weapon formed against me shall prosper. Through the cross He that is in me is greater than He that is in the world. Through the cross I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me.

However, I'm not going to go out and start naming and claiming stuff that is apart from God's sovereign will.

You said exactly what I wanted to say. Wonderful, wonderful faith.

Diggindeeper
Jan 5th 2007, 07:38 PM
J Man...you said...
"Proverbs6:2 does say that your own words ensare you. Proverbs18:21 mention that life and death are in the power of the tongue. The word of God is telling straight out that negative words will ensare you."

Nowhere in these scriptures does it say "negative words will ensnareyou." That has been added by the name it and claim it teachers. But on the other hand, there have been some who joined this board, and checked that they were a Christian. But before very long, their own words proved they were lying, and not a Christian at all! So there are several ways our words ensnare us. But I'm telling you, no where in scripture are we told to "speak positive words."


Another man I know had a son in his late 20's, and the son came down with cancer. He go worse and worse, and we were praying for him at church. But everytime one of us would approach the Dad, and ask, "How is David?" He would reply POSITIVELY, "Oh the Lord healed him!"

And he would walk away...


That Dad was speaking all the things he had been taught by WoF teachers! He never did confess that his son was getting worse, or that the cancer was still growing, or even that he had become a bed patient.

Well, it kind of shocked many when the announcement came that David had passed away.


But it not only shocked that Dad...it put him into deep, suicidal; depression! His way of believing did not work! He took to his bed, and could not find the will to get out of it.

One other thing...this young man DID take care his body. Very health conscious!


All sickness and disease is NOT caused by US and the way we care for our body! Or even put on us by demons! Remember the one born blind, and someone asked Jesus, "Who sinned? Him or his parents?" No one caused the blindness!


We are born and live our life in a house of flesh, and things happen! Many will learn this as they begin to get a little older and a little older...But our words have no magic effect to them!


Yes, Life and death are in the power of the tongue. Yes! Our tongue can lie against people or say bad things or be hurtful or all sorts of things. But, our words are NOT magic. We do not have all-power in our mouth, no matter how holy we live. Its not about "positive" or "negative" things we say, or that we think, as the Positive Confession group teaches. Positive confessing or positive thinking or possibility thinking is nothing, because all of that takes control and power from God, and puts it in OUR ability.

But...we are but dust of the earth!



You also quoted John 15:7. Here is what you said:

"Jesus says in John15:7, "If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it will be done unto you." If you are abding in the Lord, living a life of prayer seeking the Lord, you will ask according to His will for your life, and it will be done unto you. of course, you can't leave out the word "abide." Many chrsitiasn don't spend much time in prayer, they don't read and study the Word much, I also see some christians who's hearts are not after the things of God, who are wordly, who treat others badly. They cnnot expect to receive the blessings of the Lord. The Lord expects people to get their heart right with first(see 2nd Chrionicles7:14 and Proverbs1:28,29). Disoebdeince to the will of God is sin. If you want the blessings of God, live holy and righteous as His Word tells you. Some christians are doing that."


Yes, the scripture says, "If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it will be done unto you." But the bottom line in that scripture is ask, not confess!

And one other thing...we are not told to get right first if you want blessings from God. You know, good things happen to bad people all the time! And don't you know that God send the rain for the just and the unjust...

Offering of Praise
Jan 5th 2007, 07:45 PM
We have a man in our congregation who was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. The doctors got it all and this mad has had to do chemo and radiation to kill all the cancer cells.

We prayed over him of course but having watched numerous loved ones suffer the horrors of cancer I spoke over this man that these treatments would not make him sick and that he would maintain his strength and health.

Wednesday night he came up to me and gave me a hug and told me that he has now had 17 doses of chemo and 21 radiation treatments and has not gotten sick at all and has not felt weak at all.

Words are seeds and they will reap one of two harvests, good or bad.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 5th 2007, 07:46 PM
I'd like to add my two cents:

I believe God gives us what we ask for, but it requires the obedience and stepping out in Faith.

The example that comes to mind immediately is this bit of scripture:

Mat 14:28 Peter answered him, "Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water."
Here we see the prerequisite of Peter wanting to follow only One-Yeshua, and then he asks to be commanded, so he can obey and follow the footsteps of the Master. In other words if it's not commanded by God, one cannot step out in Faith to obey and follow, as there's only One by Whom we could possibly be anabled to do such miraclous things.

Mat 14:29 He said, "Come." So Peter got out of the boat, started walking on the water, and came toward Jesus.
Mat 14:30 But when he noticed the strong wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!"

Unfortunately as we grow in our Faith we experience this all too often, and we get scared, thinking we cannot possibly do this. But we see here that the willingness to obey and follow the command out in Faith is where God enabled Peter to walk on water, until doubt set in.

Mat 14:31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Hevinly1
Jan 5th 2007, 08:35 PM
There is nothing bad about praying in Faith. We thank God that we are healed by HIS might we thank God that we get the job that HE wills. As was said the trap is how you say it and who the faith is in.

I was recently pressed into looking for a new job ... I prayed that God would lead me to the job that He had for me. I prayed the scriptures.

In my times of great need (even small need) I go to the word and pray from there.



Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Meditate on These Things


8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.
Philippian Generosity


10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at last your care for me has flourished again; though you surely did care, but you lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: 12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%204%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29450b)] who strengthens me.
14 Nevertheless you have done well that you shared in my distress. 15 Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent aid once and again for my necessities. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account. 18 Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things sent from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God. 19 And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. 20 Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen

If you note here in Phillipians 4 we are told that we can do all things THROUGH Christ Jesus for he is our rock and salvation. He is our strength and shield.

We are told that God will supply all our needs according to HIS riches and glory also THORUGH Christ Jesus. That is the key that the "name it and claim it" people miss ... NOT our will but His Will be done. We cannot tell God what is to be... We can not tell God to change anothers will. We can only pray according to the word and according to His will.

miepie
Jan 5th 2007, 08:50 PM
I am very ill. I have a disease that I can't conquer....... and not only I am praying about it, so do people all over the world. Whole churches have prayed for me...... it doesn't heal me. I believe God can heal me, but in His TIme. And it could be that His Timing is the moment I enter Heaven. That's ok with me. When I have a lot of pain, I pray and God takes it away. Sometimes He just gives me strength to bear it. Doctors can't do anything for my pain, or to stop this disease...... they do try though..... but the disease in my stage is incurable...... I do not believe in NICI, I believe that you can get things according to God's Will. If I ask for something and it is in His Plan, I will get it...... but His Will is more important than mine...... I have asked numerous times to be pregnant again, after losing my baby, and it did not happen, because God's plans were different than mine.... now I can see why, at the time I couldn't.... we do not have the overview that He has. And my disease has brought me positive things too that I would have missed, if God had healed me instantly. So His Ways are better than mine and although it is difficult sometimes, I can have peace with that....... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

HisGrace
Jan 5th 2007, 11:03 PM
The NICI-camp has several varieties. Some of the are extreme, telling us we can name and claim almost anything and get it. I have heard these guys talk and that isn't it all. I prefer to use the words "Standing on the Word " for covenant promises he makes to us through the scriptures. God made a covenant to Abraham. When God makes promises, He will never go back on his word. Abraham never saw this vow fulfilled, but it will be fulfilled some day, no matter what it takes. Abraham could have 'named and claimed" that promise, because God gave it to him.

Have you never sought God's help with something and He speaks to you through the scriptures telling you that it will be fulfilled? He has given me a covenant promise and I am standing on that scripture, knowing that it will be fulfilled some day. We have to wait for his timing, and sometimes he has to do a work in us before we are mature enough to be ready for this promise.

Maybe at such times we personally don't like calling it 'naming and claiming,' but no matter how you put it, the promise is yours. This is all part of the exercise of faith, which God demands from us.

quiet dove
Jan 6th 2007, 12:08 AM
I am very ill. I have a disease that I can't conquer....... and not only I am praying about it, so do people all over the world. Whole churches have prayed for me...... it doesn't heal me. I believe God can heal me, but in His TIme. And it could be that His Timing is the moment I enter Heaven. That's ok with me. When I have a lot of pain, I pray and God takes it away. Sometimes He just gives me strength to bear it. Doctors can't do anything for my pain, or to stop this disease...... they do try though..... but the disease in my stage is incurable...... I do not believe in NICI, I believe that you can get things according to God's Will. If I ask for something and it is in His Plan, I will get it...... but His Will is more important than mine...... I have asked numerous times to be pregnant again, after losing my baby, and it did not happen, because God's plans were different than mine.... now I can see why, at the time I couldn't.... we do not have the overview that He has. And my disease has brought me positive things too that I would have missed, if God had healed me instantly. So His Ways are better than mine and although it is difficult sometimes, I can have peace with that.......


Miepie, bless you, what faith you have.

1 Timothy 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain....8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. ...11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 6th 2007, 01:03 AM
His Grace,


Have you never sought God's help with something and He speaks to you through the scriptures telling you that it will be fulfilled? He has given me a covenant promise and I am standing on that scripture, knowing that it will be fulfilled some day. We have to wait for his timing, and sometimes he has to do a work in us before we are mature enough to be ready for this promise.

This i have had happen quite a bit lately, where He is talking to me per scripture coming to mind.

This is not the same as someone saying "God i want to have a new car, and thank you, for now i will get it, cause i have Faith"

This very scenario IMO is the type of teaching where some possibly will get disappointed and wind up leaving God and all he stands for alltogether.
We can expect God to give us everything we need, and maybe some more if He so desires.

This teaching is not healthy, neither is the teaching of "give tithes, and He will bless you and give you great wealth" With God it's not about what we can get out of Him, and so on, but rather it;s about what we can do for Him to give Him glory.
But that is another story altogether ;)

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 05:06 AM
J Man...you said...
"Proverbs6:2 does say that your own words ensare you. Proverbs18:21 mention that life and death are in the power of the tongue. The word of God is telling straight out that negative words will ensare you."

Nowhere in these scriptures does it say "negative words will ensnareyou."

So if you go around speaking negative, do you really think your going to achieve anything by doing that? If your speaking negative, that is unbelief. If you read Mark6:1-6, jesus was unable to do mighty works in Nazareth because of their unbelief. They were speaking negative. They couldn't believe that Jesus would be able to do this(vs.2,3). If they had believed, Jesus could have done some mighty workd there. It was their own words that ensared them because what their unbelief came right out of their mouth. Also, do you think that the woman with an issue of blood would have gotten healed if she spoke doubt rather than speak, "If I could just touch the hem of His garment, I will be made whole?" :hmm:


no where in scripture are we told to "speak positive words."


So what are you suggesting, to go about and speak negative? Lets say you wnet to school to take a course, you gotta believe that you can pass that course, if your going to spend your money taking it. Or lets say that your going to apply for a promotion at work. You gotta believe that you can handle the job, if your going to apply yourself for it. If your attitude was "I can't do it, I can't handle it," you wouldn't bother yourself to apply. Your attidue then, is positive. If your attitude is positive, then you can profess positive.





All sickness and disease is NOT caused by US and the way we care for our body! Or even put on us by demons! Remember the one born blind, and someone asked Jesus, "Who sinned? Him or his parents?" No one caused the blindness!


I never said that all sickness is, but you can see for yourself right in the Word, that many instances that Jesus healed people, a demon spirit was also casted out. In Matthew4:23,24, Jesus went about teaching in the synogogues, preaching the Kingdom, and healed all manner of sickness and disease. Some that were healed had different diseases, torments, some were lunatic, and were possessed with devils. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. One area of attack, is people's health. The body of Christ has authority over that in the name of Jesus, but not a whole lot of christiasn recognize that. In Luke13;11-13, Jesus first casted out the spirit of infirmity that had this woman bound for 18 years, the he laid hands on her and healed her. Many churches will pray for healing, but not so many recognize that there is an adversary that must be dealt with in some instances.


COLOR=#000080]We are born and live our life in a house of flesh, and things happen! Many will learn this as they begin to get a little older and a little older...But our words have no magic effect to them![/COLOR]


This isn't about magic, we are to trust in God, not in witchcraft.


Its not about "positive" or "negative" things we say, or that we think, as the Positive Confession group teaches.

Well if you aint speaking positive, your speaking negative because negative is the oppostie of positive.




You also quoted John 15:7. Here is what you said:

"Jesus says in John15:7, "If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it will be done unto you." If you are abding in the Lord, living a life of prayer seeking the Lord, you will ask according to His will for your life, and it will be done unto you. of course, you can't leave out the word "abide." Many chrsitiasn don't spend much time in prayer, they don't read and study the Word much, I also see some christians who's hearts are not after the things of God, who are wordly, who treat others badly. They cannot expect to receive the blessings of the Lord. The Lord expects people to get their heart right with first(see 2nd Chrionicles7:14 and Proverbs1:28,29). Disoebdeince to the will of God is sin. If you want the blessings of God, live holy and righteous as His Word tells you. Some christians are doing that."


Yes, the scripture says, "If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it will be done unto you." But the bottom line in that scripture is ask, not confess!

Okay, let's look at Job22:27,28

"Thou shall make a prayer unto Him, and He shall hear thee, and thou shall pay the vows. Thou shall decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways."

What does that scripture mean to you?




And one other thing...we are not told to get right first if you want blessings from God. You know, good things happen to bad people all the time! And don't you know that God send the rain for the just and the unjust...

Let's take a look at what the Word asays about that too

Proverbs1:28-30 "Then shall they call upon me, but I wil not answer; they shall seek Me early, but they shall not find me: for that they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would none of My counsel: they despised all me reproof."

2nd Chrociles7:14, "If My people which are called by My Name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, will forgive their sins and heal the land."

Right there we are told that if we want God to heal the land, we must humble ourselves(get right of pride and arrogance), seek the Lord(we need to spend time in prayer), and turn from our wicked ways(repent of our sins and get our heart right with God).

Psalms84:12 "No good thing will the Lord withhold from those who walk upright."

Notice the word "upright." It doesn't say, 'God will not withhold any good thing from those who call themselves a christian," or"no goo thing will God withhold from those who go to church." It says from those who walk "upright."

Matthew6:33, "seek ye first the Kingdom of God and it's righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.

Notice the word righteousness. We are to be seeking after God's Kingdom(doing the will of God, serving the Lord, having a heart fro the things of God), and also after righteousness. Righteousness is doing what is right, what is pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

John15:7, we already went through that. Jesus says "If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it will be done unto you."

If your truly abiding in the Lord, and His Words are abiding in you, you are not going to live like the devil. You are going to treat people right, you are going to be honest, rather than deal treacherously with people, you are not going to run around having an affair with your spouse, your not going to swear and cuss, your not going to be a selfish person or a greedy person, your not going to listen to music that is outright wicked or watch TV shows that are wicked, you are going to live holy as He is holy as 1st Peter1:176 tells us to do. That is if you are truly abiding in Him.

1st John3:22 "Whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight."

That scripture right there tells you straight out that if yuo want to receive from God, keep His commandments, and do what is pleasing in His sight. In other words, live righteous and holy, be a person of integrity, a perosn of Godly character. If you don't live according to the way God wants His people to live, don't expect the fullness of God, don't expect to receive His favor. It's right in the Word of God itself! God is not going to honor disobedience to His Word.

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2007, 05:38 AM
Mark 11:20-24 is a perfect example for how faith works. People have a bad impression that faith is something that should get you results in the physical the second you pray.

Mark 11 shows us a different truth. Jesus Christ said that whatever you pray believe that you receive and you will have it. That's not saying to believe that you will get it. That's saying to believe that you already got it. If you're walking by faith . . . not by sight you will understand that it doesn't matter what the physical says, the spirit man has already received. That's the faith that manifests into the physical.

If you will notice, when Jesus Christ came to the fig tree and found it barren, He cursed the fig tree and said may no man eat from you again. However, it states that it wasn't until the next morning that the disciples discovered that the tree had actually withered. That's the faith that moves mountains. It is the faith that can believe that what you have prayed for has already happened regardless of whether or not you see it in the physical.

It can be a combination of things really. Either they don't have faith for healing to begin with, so they obviously don't get healed. Or they have faith when they pray, but walking in the healing without actually seeing the results first hinders their faith. They say, well I prayed for God to heal me, and I had faith when I prayed . . . but I'm still hurting. There is still doubt in that prayer. When Jesus Christ cursed the fig tree, He didn't stand there and watch the tree until it withered. He understood that by walking in faith He didn't have to worry about that tree anymore. He knew that by faith it had to wither whether or not it happened in 10 minutes or 6 hours. It wasn't until the next morning that the prayer of faith manifested into the physical. However, during that time span Jesus Christ didn't allow the flesh or the circumstances of this world take away His faith in the fact that that tree was withered. He didn't have to see, but He still believed it.

We should approach healing the same way. Isaiah stated that by His stripes we are healed. That is both a physical healing as it says in Matthew 8, and a spiritual healing as it says in 1 Peter 2. It is something that is provided through the grace of God through the cross that Jesus Christ carried for you and me. When we pray for healing we should approach it with the faithful knowledge that in the spirit, that healing has already taken place.

We know that sickness and disease is simply not of God today. There isn't one passage of scripture that would indicate that God is still giving sickness and disease to people. If you believe something like that then you are saying that what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross was not enough. The bible tells us that Jesus Christ took on Himself our punishment. God's wrath was poured out on Jesus Christ for all who would believe. So, if you're saying that God is giving you a sickness or disease, you are saying that God is pouring out His wrath on you and what Jesus Christ did simply wasn't enough for you. That is completely against numerous passages of scriptures.

Granted, there are occasions where God can allow some things to happen, which is why we must seek Him about His will for whatever the situation may be. He allowed Paul to have a thorn in the flesh. However, it was Satan that provided that thorn. God simply gave him the pass to do it. However, there was a reason for that, and God had absolutely no problem letting Paul know what that reason was. There is no sense whatsoever in simply living with sickness and disease because the world says that it's just a part of this life you have to deal with. That's simply a carnal thought. God is not going to make you live through something just for kicks. If He has given you His reasons that is one thing. However, there are so many people out there simply suffering through sickness simply because those filled with unbelief would try to teach them that God either doesn't heal . . . or only heals once in a blue moon when He feels like it. That sort of teaching simply isn't biblical.

Our God is a God of deliverance. Our God is a God of healing. Our God is a God of victory.

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 05:57 AM
If you note here in Phillipians 4 we are told that we can do all things THROUGH Christ Jesus for he is our rock and salvation. He is our strength and shield.

In other words, we can achieve in life, we can accomplish things, we can prosper. Romans8:37 says that we are more than conquerors. We don't have to accept defeat, poverty and failure.


We are told that God will supply all our needs according to HIS riches and glory also THORUGH Christ Jesus. That is the key that the "name it and claim it" people miss ... NOT our will but His Will be done. We cannot tell God what is to be... We can not tell God to change anothers will. We can only pray according to the word and according to His will.

What do you mean by "name it claim it" people? I do believe in decreeing and declaring the blessings of God and have seen the hand of God work in my life and in other people's lives. But I don't go along with treating God like a genie in a bottle. You must ask according to His will(1st John5:14). Jeremiah29:11 says that God has good plans for our lvies and 3rd epistle of John, vs2, the apostle John says "beloved, I which above all things that thou may prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers." God does want us to succeed. He doesn't want us be down trodden to defeat. We are the head, not the tail. But God also expects us to live holy and righteous, to be set upon the things of God, to be Kingdom minded people. If someone isn't doing what God has called them to do, they cannot expect God to answer their prayers. Their disobedience to the Word of God, hinders them from getting prayers answered.

Also, another problem is, too many christians want everything now. The treat God like a microwave. God often requires us to wait uon Him. Patience is a virtue and one of the 9 fruits of the Spiritmentioned in Galatians5:22,23. Mnay get discouraged when they don't get instant break-thru's. But God is not a drive-thru God. If God always gave us everything now, we wouldn't learn to depend on Him and learn patience.

About holiness and righteousness, that is something that many don't want to hear about. They want God's favor, but they don't want to walk upright. 2nd Timothy2:19 says that everyone who nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Ephesians5:11 says to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Isaiah55:7 says "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts." Many professed christians willfully sin and live ungodly, wicked lives. There is many who are not livng the life. They cannot expect the favor of God in their lives. King David said, :search me oh Lord, and see if there is any wicked way in me." Obviously David cared about his walk with the Lord and how the Lord saw him. He didn't want evil in his heart. That is the way we are supposed to be too. King David also asked the Lord to create in him a clean heart and renew a right spirit within him(Pslam51:10). If we want God to bless us, we also need to ask the Lord to creat in us a clean heart and to renew a right spirit within us.

disiple56
Jan 6th 2007, 06:47 AM
Paul prayed three times for his "thorn in the flesh" to be removed. God did not remove it. I don't think that Paul had unrepentant sin in his life, nor do I think that he had spoken a curse upon himself. And I don't think he lacked faith.

I have always wondered why the "Name it, claim it" preachers never talk about the "other" promises in the bible. They say that all the promises in the bible are ours for the taking. Why do they only look at the ones they want and not look at all the promises.

Here are some "promises" that I have never heard these "name it, claim it" preachers mention;

"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues (Matthew 10:17)
.................................................. ..........................
"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:21-23)
.................................................. ..........................
If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. (Revelation 13:10)
.................................................. ..........................
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to sufferfor him, (Phillipians 1:29)
.................................................. ..........................
For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. (1 Peter 2:19-21)
.................................................. ..........
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. (1 Peter 4:12-13)

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 07:19 AM
disciple56, I don't ever recall any WOF preachers ever denying that we will go through persecution.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 6th 2007, 08:35 AM
In other words, we can achieve in life, we can accomplish things, we can prosper. Romans8:37 says that we are more than conquerors. We don't have to accept defeat, poverty and failure.

Dear J Man,

The point is not whether we are more than conquerors, nor is it the point whether we accept defeat and failure (poverty is a relative term. God never said I would be rich, only that I would always have enough). I agree that we need to have a positive attitude concerning the promises of God. Speaking negative things does not get us anywhere. On these points we agree.

Where I have a problem is when there is no faith present in the first place. You can go around confessing positive stuff, but if there is no faith present, your words are empty. Now, I am not saying that you should confess negative things either, though there is nothing wrong with being honest. If we lack faith, we need to go to God and ask for His faith. If we lack faith, we need to read His Word and seek His face, since only God can give us faith. When God gives us that faith, the positive confession will be the automatic result.

But speaking positive words does not produce faith. This is where the crux of the discussion lies. If you speak words in order to produce faith, you are not practicing Christianity but practicing magic. Why magic? Because magic seeks to make something happen in the spiritual realm by using a formula, technique, or method. If you speak positive words, hoping to create faith in your heart, you are simply practicing magic.

Ask God, and you will receive. Seek Him, and you will find. By all means, stand on the promises of God. Repeat them to yourself and remind yourself. But do not go around saying that you are healed or that God will provide because you want those words to create faith. That is not the way things work.

miepie
Jan 6th 2007, 10:04 AM
We know that sickness and disease is simply not of God today. There isn't one passage of scripture that would indicate that God is still giving sickness and disease to people. If you believe something like that then you are saying that what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross was not enough. The bible tells us that Jesus Christ took on Himself our punishment. God's wrath was poured out on Jesus Christ for all who would believe. So, if you're saying that God is giving you a sickness or disease, you are saying that God is pouring out His wrath on you and what Jesus Christ did simply wasn't enough for you. That is completely against numerous passages of scriptures.

I would never say that God gave me this disease..... God is not the reason I am disabled or bedridden. I am saying that God is using my disease in numerous ways. I see He is using my disease to encourage people around here and in real life. More than once I heard from people that if I could still believe with this disease, that it made it easier for them to believe too.... unfortunately the other way around happens too..... my own parents can't believe no more because they think that if I believe so faithfully and God still doesn't heal me, He probably doesn't exist...... I tell them that God does exist and that He heals me spiritually... one thing that this disease brought me is that I grew so much closer to God and so much stronger in faith.... without my disease He would still be a God at a distance..... and that makes my disease almost worth it.... through Him I found this messageboard, through this messageboard I found my husband.... all things come together if you let God lead you, even in good times. Nowadays people see God as a genie that fulfills all our wishes. He does answer me, He takes away pain sometimes or gives me strength to go through it if I ask Him or sometimes if I don't ask Him at all...... He just answers according to His Plan......
I was anointed again in August.... God was there, I could feel His Presence when the minister and elder anointed me and prayed over me..... He did not heal me.... but He gave me His Peace that passes all undrestanding, because He knew I needed that and it was in His Plan.... and I am maybe even more greatful for that than healing..... :pray:


Granted, there are occasions where God can allow some things to happen, which is why we must seek Him about His will for whatever the situation may be. He allowed Paul to have a thorn in the flesh. However, it was Satan that provided that thorn. God simply gave him the pass to do it. However, there was a reason for that, and God had absolutely no problem letting Paul know what that reason was. There is no sense whatsoever in simply living with sickness and disease because the world says that it's just a part of this life you have to deal with. That's simply a carnal thought. God is not going to make you live through something just for kicks. If He has given you His reasons that is one thing. However, there are so many people out there simply suffering through sickness simply because those filled with unbelief would try to teach them that God either doesn't heal . . . or only heals once in a blue moon when He feels like it. That sort of teaching simply isn't biblical.

Our God is a God of deliverance. Our God is a God of healing. Our God is a God of victory.
I refuse to believe that God does not heal me because He gets a kick out of that..... He is not like that at all..... He loves me and He has shown me that on many occasions..... I have had Jesus hold my feet during a test in the hospital when I was scared and I cried out to Him...... I have had Him holding my hand during another test, or saw Him in the room when something was painful to go through at the dentist..... He is there when I need Him.... He is there when I am just having fun.... He is clearly present in my life, and not to get a kick out of it.... He is there because He loves me... He gave His Own Son for me.... I think I know why He does not heal me.... I have time for him 24 hours a day.... that would change drastically if I would heal... I'd have to find a job and get busy with earthly things..... I see how He uses my disease, but then again I could be totally wrong.... but the good thing is that I do not have to know that.... He knows and that's enough for me..... :pray:
I don't believe God heals once in a blue moon either...... I think it's all in His Plan and in His Will if He heals you..... sometimes it takes decades of praying.... I prayed hard for about ten years to do something useful on my bed.... the first thing He gave me was writing a book, that although it does not fit my beliefs anymore, it did help me to grow closer to Him..... and then after a few years of praying again, He gave me my own little Ministry, that through cards and embroidery, encourages people all over the world.....

I believe that healing can be in various ways.... in my case I am not healed physically, but God is definitely healing me spiritually. And for me that's worth more than physical healing could be.... It would be wonderful to heal physically, but I know I will lose that when I die, while my spirit matures and stays with me forever..... I'd love to heal completely..... but only if it is in His Plan and not because I want it... if He does not want to do that right now, than I don't want it.... It took me years to accept this, but I have realised that a life on a bed can be worth just as much, or even more in my case, than a life out in the world can be...... as long as He is with me I am at peace with that.... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

HisGrace
Jan 6th 2007, 06:00 PM
miepie, I have often drawn great inspiraton from you and greatly admire your strong faith under unbelievable suffering. You obviously have gained confidence in God's will for your life. Joni Ericksen, the well known Christian paraplegic, went through a time of desperation, supplication and calling out to God for her healing, but she finally came to a place to where God made it clear that he wouldn't be healing her and would use in other mighty ways.

However, there are many who are missing out on God's will to heal them. There were instances where Jesus 'healed them all'. There is a couple in my city who have had a healing ministry for many years. They have found out that many do not receive their healing because of issues buried within them that they don't realize they have. This woman preacher herself had terrible migraines and back pain for many years and she never got a healing, even though she would lay hands and heal many others of the same maladies.

Finally God revealed to her that she had issues in honouring her father, who had already passed away. Her mother died when she was 13 yrs. and even though he was good man, he really was a heavy taskmaster to this young girl and her sister, in taking care of the house and expecting them to cope with adult issues. She came to the realization at this one particular moment that she had deep buried resentment towards her father, and once she let it go the physical symptons gradually disappeared. The Bible commands us to honour our father and mother, and she hadn't done that.

There are many instances in the Bible where the prophets of old laid lay claim to what God had blessed them with.

Joseph had become the ruler of Egypt and had two sons while in Egype named Ephraim and Manasseh. As his father lay dying, Joseph took his two sons to visit their grandfather, and Jacob claimed them as his own heritage and blessed them -
Genesis 48:5 “Now I am claiming as my own sons these two boys of yours, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born here in the land of Egypt before I arrived. They will be my sons, just as Reuben and Simeon are.

Regarding the sacrifices made in the Holy Tabernacle -
Lev. 24:9 The loaves of bread will belong to Aaron and his descendants, who must eat them in a sacred place, for they are most holy. It is the permanent right of the priests to claim this portion of the special gifts presented to the Lord.”

2 Cor. 10: 13 We will not boast about things done outside our area of authority. We will boast only about what has happened within the boundaries of the work God has given us, which includes our working with you.
14 We are not reaching beyond these boundaries when we claim authority over you, as if we had never visited you.

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 06:45 PM
Dear J Man,

The point is not whether we are more than conquerors, nor is it the point whether we accept defeat and failure (poverty is a relative term. God never said I would be rich, only that I would always have enough).

If your needs are provided for, then your not living in poverty. Poverty means to be in lack. If you suceeding, your not in poverty. You don't have to be wealthy, to not be in poverty. But I see many on here, who think if your not rich, your poor. I am not a millionaire, but I am prospering. I am not lacking. Therefore, I am not in poverty. I don't have to be a millionaire to not be in poverty. I did struggle in poverty before, but got out of poverty. I trusted in the Lord, and He broke the poverty trap that was against me.

Aso, why do so many christians think that poverty is God's will? Since God says that He will supply all of our needs according to His riches and glory, since His Word says that He will not withhold any good thing from those who walk upright, why do they think God would want them in lack? WHen there is poverty, people are suffering. It is awful that there is poverty in this world. Poverty is a result of human greed. If there wa sno greed, there wouldn't be all this poverty and suffering going on.

When I moved out of my parents home at 22, I struggled in poverty as I did not have a steady job. Even the work that I did have, payed low wages. I was a very good steward with my money, and was able to save up some when I did have sufficient work, but it was difficult to live the way I had lived. I lived in a little dump in a run down neighborhood.


I agree that we need to have a positive attitude concerning the promises of God. Speaking negative things does not get us anywhere. On these points we agree.








Where I have a problem is when there is no faith present in the first place. You can go around confessing positive stuff, but if there is no faith present, your words are empty. Now, I am not saying that you should confess negative things either, though there is nothing wrong with being honest. If we lack faith, we need to go to God and ask for His faith. If we lack faith, we need to read His Word and seek His face, since only God can give us faith. When God gives us that faith, the positive confession will be the automatic result.

What you said here, I totally agree with 100%

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 07:24 PM
I would never say that God gave me this disease..... God is not the reason I am disabled or bedridden.

Miepie, I am glad that you realize that it is not God gving you this disease. Now I am not trying to make assumptions about your sitation, but what do you think is the cause of this disease? How did this come about in your life?


I am saying that God is using my disease in numerous ways. I see He is using my disease to encourage people around here and in real life. More than once I heard from people that if I could still believe with this disease, that it made it easier for them to believe too.... unfortunately the other way around happens too..... my own parents can't believe no more because they think that if I believe so faithfully and God still doesn't heal me, He probably doesn't exist......

When God does heal you, others around you will not be able to deny the power of God. Just like the lame man in Acts chapter3, who was miraculously healed, he got up and started walking, no-one could deny that God is real and is able. Many in thsi world, either they don't believe that God is real, or they don't belive that Jesus is the only way, truth and life. They would even say to us, "how can you say that what you believe(christianity) is the right way when there are numerous religions?" But when jesus heales people, and it is done in the name of Jesus, no-one can deny the God is real, and that He is Jesus Christ. If the body of Christ were being healed a lot more, many ahteists, muslims, buddhists, hindu's. wiccans, new agers, and satanists, would be coming to the Lord. Many who don't believe, would believe.



I tell them that God does exist and that He heals me spiritually... one thing that this disease brought me is that I grew so much closer to God and so much stronger in faith.... without my disease He would still be a God at a distance..... and that makes my disease almost worth it.... through Him I found this messageboard, through this messageboard I found my husband.... all things come together if you let God lead you, even in good times.

God does allow us to go through things for sure. Romans8:28 says that he will work those things our for the good of those who love Him.


Nowadays people see God as a genie that fulfills all our wishes.

Many treat God like a microwave oven. They want everything now. When they don't receive instant break-thru's, they get discouraged, because they have not learned to depend on God and be patient.





I refuse to believe that God does not heal me because He gets a kick out of that.....

Some of the people on here do seem to think like that though. They think that God just likes to see us suffer. Satan is the one who comes to steal,kill and destroy, ye some christians think that is Gods will?:confused



I don't believe God heals once in a blue moon either......

But this is what many on here think. That He only heals once in a blue moon. I have literally seen people post that on here.


I think it's all in His Plan and in His Will if He heals you.....

The Word of God does say that by His stripes we are healed(Isaiah53:5 and 1st Peter2:24). Jesus did say that He came to heal the borken hearted, preach deliverance to the captives, and recovery to the sight of the blind, and set at liberty them that are bruised(Luke4:18). Not just physically, but emotioanlly and spiritually as well. God wants us to be mended in our emotions so that we can think with a sound mind(2nd Tmothy1:7).


He gave me my own little Ministry, that through cards and embroidery, encourages people all over the world.....

It's great that your serving God in ministry because many aren't doing that. Many are not doing what God has called them to do. Since you are doing what God has called you to do, this is not towards you, but many are not being blessed because of their disobedience. If they are complacent and lukewarm, they will not receive the blessings of God. But many, despite the numerous times I've tried to explain that to them, they still don't get it. They still don't understand the important of walking upright, living holy, doing what is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, if they want His favor.

quiet dove
Jan 6th 2007, 08:53 PM
It can be a combination of things really. Either they don't have faith for healing to begin with, so they obviously don't get healed. Or they have faith when they pray, but walking in the healing without actually seeing the results first hinders their faith.


My question is, do you still have your faith when you dont get healed, like Paul.

NICI equates faith with success. Success being health, wealth, a good and easy life. Of course it is never said that life will be easier but it is certainly implied. Ya get sick, get healed, money problems, confess your success and it will arrive. What if all your positive confession never results in healing or other types of blessing? Did you not have enough faith? Or is it possible that you are so faithful in your positive confession that you were to sidetracked to be faithful and completely trust in Gods ability to know and understand you better than you know and understand yourself. While you were pouring your energy into positive confession because it supposedly equates to faith that you miss the soul teaching lessons that God in His wisdom is trying to teach you, even if the teaching comes in the form of allowing hard time of one kind or another in your life?

My brothers and sisters, I have been right where you are. There is some good teaching going on here to try and open your eyes and set you free from the NICI teaching.

I agree, we shouldnt go around feeling sorry for ourselves or just being "negative" however, most negativity comes from a person who is not getting the things they WANT in life. "Life is not going their way".They dont have the job, the home, the clothes, the car, whatever...

The negativity leaves, the depression leaves, when we come to understand that trusting in God's will is faith, and to be content in the circumstances He allows or causes, which ever, He is always in control, period.



It's great that your serving God in ministry because many aren't doing that. Many are not doing what God has called them to do. Since you are doing what God has called you to do, this is not towards you, but many are not being blessed because of their disobedience. If they are complacent and lukewarm, they will not receive the blessings of God. But many, despite the numerous times I've tried to explain that to them, they still don't get it. They still don't understand the important of walking upright, living holy, doing what is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, if they want His favor


So miepie is being obedient, she has faith, I'm pretty sure she doent go around confessing "God wont heal me". She is confessing her faith in Him and doing her best to live according to His will. Why is she still sick then? Why are there countless others in her shoes that remain without healing?

To blame us when we dont recieve blessings puts the power in us to achieve the blessing we seek. I would agree that disobedience hinder blessing and communion with God, however, there are so many believers trying to live according to Gods will for them, disobedience is not hindering them, they strive heart, body and soul to deny the flesh. Faith governs every step they take. They have peace in God's will for them. But they are sick, broke, bad job, whatever the circumstances. So is the power of blessing in their control or Gods. Are the ones who appear to be getting the blessings better than them? Or maybe they just dont have "faith" that they are also entitled to the blessings.


Sin needs to be delt with as to not hinder our realtionship with God, that is so much more than temporal blessings. We certainly hope for and do recieve so many blessings, some to help us physically in this life and the blessing of true communion with our God, when He teaches us and we know we have heard His voice. (Not audibly-you know what I mean) I think the latter is so much more than the former and I'm sure you would agree.

miepie
Jan 6th 2007, 09:26 PM
Miepie, I am glad that you realize that it is not God gving you this disease. Now I am not trying to make assumptions about your sitation, but what do you think is the cause of this disease? How did this come about in your life?
I don't know.... I just think that disease is a part of living in this world and that Satan is the cause of it.... I know that I have always been sick in my life and that my life has changed ever since a car ran into my bike when I was 12 years old..... the kind of disease that I have has a high rate of healing if it is caught in the beginning phase..... with me they discovered it (after series of misdiagnosis and a failed surgery that made me disabled) after twenty years..... and the it was too late.... however the chances of healing were still there.... Five times the doctors saved my foot from amputation..... and then it spreaded through the rest of my body and the signs are very clear that it is entering my organs now.... the chances of that happening to someone are not high.... but yet they do happen... by wrong diagnosis, by wrong meds, therapy..... there are numerous reasons to think of why I am in this stage of the disease and why I am not healed from it. I do believe that God can heal me instantly, I just don't think it is in His Plan yet...... I think He healed me 2000 years ago on the Cross, but that I am just not able to perceive it yet..... in His Time I will perceive it...... all I know is that one day I will be healed, the only thing I don't know is when that will be.... it could be tomorrow, but it could just as well be when I enter Heaven in my perfect body..... I don't know..... what I do know is that He left His Peace with me and that peace makes it possible for me to accept this disease and try to be an example for other people to show what a difference faith makes when your body is fighting a disease..... I can't change God's Plan, I wouldn't even want to if I could, but I can try to be the best Christian I can be and follow Jesus and try to be more like Him every day and leave the rest up to God..... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

HisGrace
Jan 6th 2007, 10:06 PM
Dear J Man,

The point is not whether we are more than conquerors, nor is it the point whether we accept defeat and failure (poverty is a relative term. God never said I would be rich, only that I would always have enough). If this true, we shouldn't have to worry about where the next dollar will come from to pay our bills. If we are always worried about making ends meet, we won't have time to consetrate on giving full focus towards growing spiritually. There would be too many outside worries. We do have a pretty good health care system in Canada though.

I am very middle class, but I can't remember once about being concerned about paying a bill. Even though there were some lean years I never worried about money.

I have gotten some inheritance money through the years. With this, I was blessed to able to pay maintenance bills for house repairs. Otherwise, we would have to sell our home. By having a little extra money, it is a wonderful chance to be able to support charities and help familly members with financial needs.

I think it is a ploy of the devil to makes us feel as if we shouldn't have a little extra cash on hand, because he would love to stop the flow of helping others.

If you go on the site of these NICI believers, it boggles your mind how much they give to charities, building of hospitals, etc.

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2007, 10:16 PM
My question is, do you still have your faith when you dont get healed, like Paul.

That's impossible. I've already been healed. It happened at the cross. It's not something you have to earn by getting God to respond to your faith. It is something that God has already given, and I simply must accept it through faith. Just as I have accepted my salvation through faith, I have also accepted complete and total healing through faith. That is all a part of God's grace. The problem is, most of today's church doesn't walk by the clearest of biblical principles . . . we are called to walk by faith, not by sight. God's children see all the sickness in the world and all the people suffering from whatever disease they have and all of sudden it begins to hinder their own faith. We simply take sickness as something that is a fact of life that we must live with. Those who live by the Spirit and also walk in the Spirit do not see what the world sees.


What if all your positive confession never results in healing or other types of blessing? Did you not have enough faith? Or is it possible that you are so faithful in your positive confession that you were to sidetracked to be faithful and completely trust in Gods ability to know and understand you better than you know and understand yourself. While you were pouring your energy into positive confession because it supposedly equates to faith that you miss the soul teaching lessons that God in His wisdom is trying to teach you, even if the teaching comes in the form of allowing hard time of one kind or another in your life?

If you have to continually confess something over and over again that is already taken care of at the cross, I wouldn't consider that walking by faith. Did Jesus Christ stand at that fig tree and continually confess over and over again that it would be cursed? No. He simply spoke the word and kept on truckin'. But regardless, I'm talking about God's grace here. Do you continually have to confess your salvation? Jesus Christ provided healing through the cross just as He provided salvation.


My brothers and sisters, I have been right where you are. There is some good teaching going on here to try and open your eyes and set you free from the NICI teaching.

I don't believe in the name it claim it doctrine the way many consider it, but I disagree that there is "a lot of good teaching" going on here. People here need to check the teaching with the Word. I see a lot of people judging things by how it relates to their flesh. I see a lot of, "Well, we must simply have to deal with this sickness stuff because that's just a part of this world and a part of life." I don't agree with this at all. I'm completely confident in the work Jesus Christ did on the cross. I don't care what the world says. I don't care what the world and the carnal view as "reality". His ways are not our ways, and the things of this world are not what I live by any longer.


To blame us when we dont recieve blessings puts the power in us to achieve the blessing we seek.

Or it could be that some aren't walking in the blessings they've already been given.

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 10:50 PM
A question I have for people partaking in this thread. How many of you's are aware that some sicknesses are demonic? Not saying that they all are, but it is biblical to say that some sicknesses are. MNay are in need of deliverance. jesus casted demon spirits out of some of the people He healed, so did the apostles. If Jesus did that, then why isn't the body of Christ as a whole, doig that? How come many don't seem to recognize that? Jesus has given us power and authority over the kingdom of darkness, so why aren't many taking authority over the enemy? Poele want prayer for this problem and that problem, but do they realize that we have the reponsiblity to use that authoirty that Jesus gave us? Authority is no good unless you use it.

Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. he seeks to devour whom he may devour. He attacks people's health, he attacks their mind, he comes at them in any way possible. We need to recognize those attacks. We need to be vigialant, to be aware of how he operates. Satan has held back many in the body of Christ from receiving their blessings. sadly, many christians don't realize that they have an adversary working against them. They are actually duped into belieivng it is God's will for them to remain in that rut they are in. Satan did a lot of damage to my life. Although I was guilty myself of allowing him through my negative self pitying atttiude, Satan surely worked hard to destroy me. I did not know who I was in the Lord and I did not know how he operates. If I did, I would not have allowed myself to go down that route. I tahnk God I know my authority in Christ now though.

If we don't have on the armour of God and are not sober and vigilant against Satan, he will ensare us. We don't have to accept living in poverty. That is a lie that many are believing. That doesn't mean your going to be super rich, but you can escape the poverty trap. You can get out of that bondage. Jesus came to set the captives free and destroy the works of the devil. Poverty keeps people in bondage. Satan just loves it when people are in bondage.

miepie
Jan 6th 2007, 10:50 PM
What I don't understand from your post VR is that how I am able to receive much blessings from Christ, but apparently there is something wrong with my faith to receive blessings of healing? I completely disagree with that...... I believe that there is nothing wrong with my faith but that God is not a Genie in a bottle to solve my healthproblems instantly..... for one thing, my Ministry would collapse.... I would not be able to do that and keep a job (which I had to get then) and a life full obligations.... Now I have all the time of my life to read the Bible, to be a mod on here and to keep a Ministry going..... what if God wants that Ministry to grow and for that reason it's not in His Plan that I perceive the healing yet that He gave me on the Cross...... He has blessed my Ministry very richly and many people have been blessed through it.... what if that is more important to God than my physical healing?
And as I said before, I do receive healing from Him..... even physical..... when the painlevels are too high and I pray for that, He either takes it away or He gives me enough strength to get through it..... isn't that healing? and don't I perceive that?
But the most valuable He gives me is my spiritual healing..... that's worth more than any physical healing can ever be....... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 10:56 PM
I don't believe in the name it claim it doctrine the way many consider it

Yeah, I have to wonder where this "name-it-claim-it" temr really developed from?:confused As a WOF believer, I do believe in the supernatural power of the Lord, I do beleive in declaring the belssings of God, but it does have to be in line with His will for your life. God does want us to prosper. He doesn't want us being failures and defeated. Belieivng God for His blessings, requires patience, it requires obedience and maturity. But who really adheres to the nonsense that you can have whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want? I don't recall anyone ever saying exactly that. But that is how many on here preceive us.




Or it could be that some aren't walking in the blessings they've already been given.

Satan has robbed the people of God and many don't even know it.

the J Man
Jan 6th 2007, 11:00 PM
for one thing, my Ministry would collapse.... I would not be able to do that and keep a job (which I had to get then) and a life full obligations....

One question of curiousity, you mentioned before if God healed you, you would have to go out and work. My question is, why would you have to now go out and work if God healed you if your not in the workforce currently?

miepie
Jan 6th 2007, 11:07 PM
One question of curiousity, you mentioned before if God healed you, you would have to go out and work. My question is, why would you have to now go out and work if God healed you if your not in the workforce currently?
I am severely disabled and bedridden and get an allowance from the State. Normally you would have to go find a job if you get that allowance but because of my physical health I don't have to do that, they have put me out of that obligation..... if however, I would be healed, I would be obligated to find a job, or lose my income (which I cannot afford).....

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

quiet dove
Jan 6th 2007, 11:18 PM
That's impossible. I've already been healed. It happened at the cross. It's not something you have to earn by getting God to respond to your faith. It is something that God has already given, and I simply must accept it through faith.

We are also fogiven and we are also indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We have been made a new creature. At the cross. Saying that a person is sick because they havnt accepted healing is like saying believers sin because they havnt excepted salvation.



... It is something that God has already given, and I simply must accept it through faith. Just as I have accepted my salvation through faith, I have also accepted complete and total healing through faith. That is all a part of God's grace. The problem is, most of today's church doesn't walk by the clearest of biblical principles . . . we are called to walk by faith, not by sight.


If excepting healing is like excepting salvation, there is a lot of us going to be disappointed as we are under the impression that we have execpted God's gift of salvation, and we know in our hearts He is the Truth, but we cant excepted healing? And because of the world think we are supposed to be sick?


God's children see all the sickness in the world and all the people suffering from whatever disease they have and all of sudden it begins to hinder their own faith. We simply take sickness as something that is a fact of life that we must live with. Those who live by the Spirit and also walk in the Spirit do not see what the world sees.


If seeing sickness hinders our faith in healing, shouldnt all the sin hinder our faith in salvation? In the world sin is also a fact of life. Whether we like it or not, our physical bodies are not imune to the result of sin in the world. We suffer sickness, violence, heartbreak, but we should glorify God in all things. That is witnessing to the world, that we have a God who not only loves us but a God we trust. We should seek to glorify God in all circumstances. Getting healed and glorifying God is easy in comparison to not getting healed and glorifying Him. We will suffer trials and tribulation in this life, sick or healthy, rich or poor, we should gloryfy Him through faith and obedience.



If you have to continually confess something over and over again that is already taken care of at the cross, I wouldn't consider that walking by faith. Did Jesus Christ stand at that fig tree and continually confess over and over again that it would be cursed? No. He simply spoke the word and kept on truckin'. But regardless, I'm talking about God's grace here. Do you continually have to confess your salvation? Jesus Christ provided healing through the cross just as He provided salvation.


I never said it must be confessed over and over again, that is what NICI teaches, not me. And thats right, Jesus didint confess it over and over. He also healed people on the spot, He didnt send them off saying you will be healed when I die on the cross. I have complete faith we will live through out eternity in a resurrected perfect body. Until then we should do our best to walk in faith, seeking Gods will, content in any circumstances. Easier said than done.

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2007, 11:28 PM
What I don't understand from your post VR is that how I am able to receive much blessings from Christ, but apparently there is something wrong with my faith to receive blessings of healing? I completely disagree with that...... I believe that there is nothing wrong with my faith but that God is not a Genie in a bottle to solve my healthproblems instantly..... for one thing, my Ministry would collapse....

It's interesting you're confessing something like that. You speak with your mouth that your ministry would collapse if you were healed. So, if your healing would take you out of the will of God, why would healing be the best thing for you? I stated in my initial post that there are exceptions. I used the apostle Paul as an example. His ministry would have definitely been hindered if God would have taken that thorn from him. So, why would God take his thorn? If God felt it necessary for you to live with a "thorn", then that is His purpose.

One thing, though. I do believe that many use Paul's example as a crutch in order to justify why they aren't healed. I believe Paul's situation is very rare. Not many people are given a "thorn", IMO. I know not one Christian who has been given the revelation that Paul received. He got his "thorn" because he had been taken up to the third heaven and the abundance of revelations would have "exalted him beyond measure". I don't feel this sort of thing happens with many Christians.

I am curious, though. Why do you believe being healed would collapse your ministry? I mean you have to listen to God and do what you're called to do, but couldn't God supply the need for your ministry even if you're healed? I know many people who simply quit their jobs at the drop of a hat to go in ministry full-time because God told them to. Sure, they had reservations and concerns, but those walking by faith will do it anyway. Why? Because God has promised that He will supply all our need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So, if God calls you somewhere, He's going to make sure you have what you need. However, like I said, that is something only you can know by what the Lord gives you.

VerticalReality
Jan 6th 2007, 11:40 PM
.

We are also fogiven and we are also indwelt with the Holy Spirit. We have been made a new creature. At the cross. Saying that a person is sick because they havnt accepted healing is like saying believers sin because they havnt excepted salvation.

My spirit doesn't sin.



If excepting healing is like excepting salvation, there is a lot of us going to be disappointed as we are under the impression that we have execpted God's gift of salvation, and we know in our hearts He is the Truth, but we cant excepted healing? And because of the world think we are supposed to be sick?


No. People don't have a difficult time usually with accepting their salvation. Why? Because you can't see your salvation. Healing, on the other hand, is another story. Many people doubt their healing because they are too caught up in what they see. What happens? Oh no! Jimmy came to the office today with the flu . . . I bet you I'm gonna get it now!!! Next thing you know you have the flu. Many Christians fail to acknowledge that Jesus Christ defeated sickness just like he defeated sin. Just as sin no longer has dominion over us, sickness and disease doesn't either.


If seeing sickness hinders our faith in healing, shouldnt all the sin hinder our faith in salvation?

It does! Many Christians surround themselves with sin all the time, and it does have an effect on their faith. Why do you think the Word instructs us not to surround ourselves with that stuff all the time? Draw nigh to the Lord and He will draw nigh to you. However, draw nigh to sin and it will draw nigh to you as well. Sin definitely has a strong effect on faith.


In the world sin is also a fact of life.

Only to those who are not walking in the Spirit. Galatians 5 talks a lot about this and the works of the flesh.


Whether we like it or not, our physical bodies are not imune to the result of sin in the world.

Your spirit is. Therefore, if your flesh is crucified and you are walking in faith, the world and its sin and sickness isn't going to effect you.


We suffer sickness, violence, heartbreak, but we should glorify God in all things.

Violence and heartbreak have nothing to do with what we're talking about here. We're talking about what God provided through Jesus Christ on the cross. We're talking about God's grace. Jesus Christ conquered sin and sickness on the cross. We're talking about the principalitities and powers that are now beneath our feet if we simply accept that by faith.


Getting healed and glorifying God is easy in comparison to not getting healed and glorifying Him.

Sure it's easier, but who ever said that everything has to be hard? Did Jesus Christ suffer with sickness and disease? No, he did not. Since He now dwells in us, why are we now accepting those things? You accept them because you don't walk in the victory Jesus Christ provided.


We will suffer trials and tribulation in this life

I don't argue that.


sick or healthy

That is by your choice on many occasions.


rich or poor

Jesus Christ didn't provide millions of dollars on the cross. That has nothing to do with God's grace.


we should gloryfy Him through faith and obedience.

I agree.





I never said it must be confessed over and over again, that is what NICI teaches, not me.

I know, and this is one of the many reasons I don't agree with the NICI doctrine.


He also healed people on the spot, He didnt send them off saying you will be healed when I die on the cross.

You're now going into the realm of authority . . . not dominion. That is a completely different topic all together.

miepie
Jan 6th 2007, 11:53 PM
It's interesting you're confessing something like that. You speak with you mouth that your ministry would collapse if you were healed. So, if your healing would take you out of the will of God, why would healing be the best thing for you? I stated in my initial post that there are exceptions. I used the apostle Paul as an example. His ministry would have definitely been hindered if God would have taken that thorn from him. So, why would God take his thorn? If God felt it necessary for you to live with a "thorn", then that is His purpose.
The thing is, that I don't feel it like a "thorn". It feels like my Father knows better what is good for me than I do, and handles accordingly..... I don't receive it as a punishment at all, or something he is "withholding" from me..... I see it as an act of love and kindness, protecting me as a Father protects his child......


One thing, though. I do believe that many use Paul's example as a crutch in order to justify why they aren't healed. However, I believe Paul's situation is very rare. Not many people are given a "thorn", IMO. I know not one Christian who has been given the revelation that Paul received. He got his "thorn" because he had been taken up to the third heaven and the abundance of revelations would have "exalted him beyond measure". I don't feel this sort of thing happens with many Christians.
The fact that you don't feel it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen..... God may have a 1000 reasons for not healing people at a certain timeframe.... in my case I can only guess what the reasons are, but the good thing is that I don't have to know.... He knows, that is enough for me.....


I am curious, though. Why do you believe being healed would collapse your ministry? I mean you have to listen to God and do what you're called to do, but couldn't God supply the need for your ministry even if you're healed? I know many people who simply quit their jobs at the drop of a hat to go in ministry full-time because God told them to. Sure, they had reservations and concerns, but those walking by faith will do it anyway. Why? Because God has promised that He will supply all our need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. So, if God calls you somewhere, He's going to make sure you have what you need. However, like I said, that is something only you can know by what the Lord gives you.
I have no doubt that God could supply what it takes to keep my Ministry going.... He is already doing that, I could never afford what people are sending me to help me keep it going..... but beside the financial part of it, which is already hard without me getting healed, there are more obligations that I had to take part in that would take me away from my Ministry..... a lot would happen if I got healed tomorrow and they would not only be good changes.... right now I am at a safe spot in my house, but then I would have to get back in the world..... maybe I am not ready for that.... maybe God forsees that I would not function there anymore after so many years...... maybe He thinks it is best for me to stay where I am, maybe He knows I would fail and prevents me from falling into that..... I have never seen the world from a healthy perspective...... it would put my whole world upside down...... but then again, I don't have to know it.... because if God heals me tomorrow, I'll gladly accept it and see what He has planned for me..... but if He doesn't and things stay the same, I am a happy lady too...... because I know my joy is not in this world, and I am not of this world either...... I am living for the world after this one and as far as I can see, God is offering me the best perspectives for Spiritual Healing by not healing me physically..... I pray for directions and more than once God sent me to see a doctor.... yet He does not give me instructions of how to believe different so I can be healed...... I am sure He would be the first One to give those to me if that were the case...... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

VerticalReality
Jan 7th 2007, 01:43 AM
The thing is, that I don't feel it like a "thorn". It feels like my Father knows better what is good for me than I do, and handles accordingly..... I don't receive it as a punishment at all, or something he is "withholding" from me..... I see it as an act of love and kindness, protecting me as a Father protects his child......

I have no problem with that. I don't view God allowing Paul to have his "thorn" as punishment either. God wasn't pouring out His wrath on Paul. He was allowing something in Paul's life for Paul's own good. Why? Because Paul would have walked right out of God's will and into sin without that "thorn". Then Paul would have been of no good use to the Lord.


The fact that you don't feel it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen..... God may have a 1000 reasons for not healing people at a certain timeframe.... in my case I can only guess what the reasons are, but the good thing is that I don't have to know.... He knows, that is enough for me.....

I agree. However, it is my belief that those 1,000 reasons are related to us and not God. God doesn't allow sickness for nothing. Pretty much all the healings that Jesus Christ did the Word says were out of compassion. He didn't do them only to bring Himself glory. He didn't do them only to verify the gospel. It says a good portion of them were simply done out of compassion. What that says is that if at all possible, God does not want us living with sickness and disease. He has great love for us. He doesn't want us hurting if we don't have to be for some reason or another. There is always a reason, and those reasons are because of something on our own end.

I also don't know of any scriptural examples where God left someone sick in order to bring inspiration and encouragement to another person that was sick. In fact, it's just the opposite. I know many scriptures where healing brought the inspiration and encouragement to those who were sick, and that is why they sought out Jesus Christ in order to try and receive their healing.


I have no doubt that God could supply what it takes to keep my Ministry going.... He is already doing that, I could never afford what people are sending me to help me keep it going..... but beside the financial part of it, which is already hard without me getting healed, there are more obligations that I had to take part in that would take me away from my Ministry..... a lot would happen if I got healed tomorrow and they would not only be good changes.... right now I am at a safe spot in my house, but then I would have to get back in the world..... maybe I am not ready for that.... maybe God forsees that I would not function there anymore after so many years...... maybe He thinks it is best for me to stay where I am, maybe He knows I would fail and prevents me from falling into that..... I have never seen the world from a healthy perspective...... it would put my whole world upside down...... but then again, I don't have to know it.... because if God heals me tomorrow, I'll gladly accept it and see what He has planned for me..... but if He doesn't and things stay the same, I am a happy lady too...... because I know my joy is not in this world, and I am not of this world either...... I am living for the world after this one and as far as I can see, God is offering me the best perspectives for Spiritual Healing by not healing me physically..... I pray for directions and more than once God sent me to see a doctor.... yet He does not give me instructions of how to believe different so I can be healed...... I am sure He would be the first One to give those to me if that were the case...... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

I believe you've just summed up why you're not healed physically. If all that stuff would take place with you getting healed, I could see why God would see it better not to do that. I mean if you are living for Him and glorifying Him through ministry where you're at, I see no reason why He would take you out of this if it would hinder your service to Him. However, like I said, that is completely between you and Him.

Diggindeeper
Jan 7th 2007, 02:40 AM
Boy! I sure do see a lot of judgmental posts on here! I would not be so cruel as to say a person does not have enough faith to be healed, or they speak negative things and bring sickness upon themselves. Thank God, our family Physician does not see things that way!

I have a question...but first, let me say that the leadership of this board does NOT adhere to Word of Faith, and for very good reasons. Sometimes it takes a lot of Bible study to get out of that teaching. And, the majority of Christians do not adhere to that teaching. I advise anyone who is unsure to check out some Christian Apologetic sites. Just type in Word of Faith.

But we are allowed to discuss it. And that's what we are doing.

My question is this...little children are in hospitals all over the place suffering with cancer, Leukemia, and many life-threatening diseases. I don't understand why some of the WoF people can't go to them, and get them healed! These little kids are not old enough to know how to live righteously or to walk in holiness!

Now, I want it known that I have received instant healing when I was prayed for! And I only bowed my head and closed my eyes out of respect to my husband who was the only one there, praying! I did not expect instant healing...my faith had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING!

But, this was verified by my doctor! I have medical proof that suddenly, I didn't need the surgery any more, because the thing I needed it for was there...then it was NOT there. But my positive words and my amount of faith had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Are you listening?

And I have received healing at other times also. But to save space, I will not go into all that. I will say that one was according to James 5:14-15,

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But there have been other times that I had to endure much suffering, and pain, and even wondering if I would ever walk again! And terrible surgeries. But, my faith never wavered, because like Paul I learned whatever state I was in, therewith to be content! And I know what it is to endure! And let me tell you, no matter WHAT we must go through in this fleshly body, He will walk through it with us, just like he did with Shadrach, Meschah and Abeddnigo! They had their fiery furnace to go through, and I've had mine! So do other people!

But, if you look close enough, as we are walking in WHATEVER we must walk through in this life, you will see one walking there with us...and you will be compelled to say, "That other man looks like the Son of God!"

I was studying the Word of God, and walking with the Lord BEFORE some of you were even born. I remember when the Word of Faith teachings began to get popular! I was caught up in it. I know what it is. But God over time showed me through the word what the truth is! I know what it is like to receive healing, and I know what it is to endure. I wish there was a way to know, say, 20 years from now if the adherents to WoF STILL believe that way!

So, why don't some of the WoF people put legs on all that faith that others are lacking? Start with the children's hospitals!

One more thing...here is a scripture...
Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Our words are not magic. Our faith is not magic. Period.

Mark 11:22
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
(Not faith in your words...not faith in faith...but have faith in God!)

quiet dove
Jan 7th 2007, 03:50 AM
VerticalReality
My spirit doesn't sin.


And your spirit isnt sick, but we are talking about healing the physical body.



Oh no! Jimmy came to the office today with the flu . . . I bet you I'm gonna get it now!!! Next thing you know you have the flu. Many Christians fail to acknowledge that Jesus Christ defeated sickness just like he defeated sin. Just as sin no longer has dominion over us, sickness and disease doesn't either.



So what your saying is that they confessed they would get a cold and did?
That is classic NICI or Positive Confession. That is saying if they had said no I wont get a cold, they wouldnt have gotten it.

Nothing has dominion over us, including death. However, this physical body will die. One way or another.



Quiet Dove
If seeing sickness hinders our faith in healing, shouldnt all the sin hinder our faith in salvation?

and you replied

VerticalReality
It does! Many Christians surround themselves with sin all the time, and it does have an effect on their faith. Why do you think the Word instructs us not to surround ourselves with that stuff all the time? Draw nigh to the Lord and He will draw nigh to you. However, draw nigh to sin and it will draw nigh to you as well. Sin definitely has a strong effect on faith.



Notice I said "not hinder our faith in salvation".I didnt say anything about hanging out around temptation and not being effected by it.



QD
In the world sin is also a fact of life.

and you replied

VerticleReality
Only to those who are not walking in the Spirit. Galatians 5 talks a lot about this and the works of the flesh.



Unbelievers are not expected to walk in the Faith. So even if every believer lived their life in complete obedience, there would still be sin in the world. In the world sin is a fact of life.



QD
Whether we like it or not, our physical bodies are not imune to the result of sin in the world.

and you replied

VerticleReality
Your spirit is. Therefore, if your flesh is crucified and you are walking in faith, the world and its sin and sickness isn't going to effect you.



Yes, as believers our flesh is to be crucified, we are to deny our flesh and walk in the Spirit. I am to let Jesus guide my behavior. But I am still walking around in a physical body If this body was dead and no longer an issue, why does the Bible say to deny the flesh. When we become believers our flesh doesnt stop being a problem. We still must continue on a daily basis to deny it authority over us. The world and its sin and sickness do effect our physical body, and our mind.

I dont believe our spirit is immune to the pain in the world either. Have you never cried out to God, either on your own behalf or on the behalf of another. Have you not poured your soul out in prayer with pain for someone? That is the world effecting the spirit. Is crying physical just because there are tears, or is laughter physical just because we sound funny?


....Did Jesus Christ suffer with sickness and disease? No, he did not. Since He now dwells in us, why are we now accepting those things? You accept them because you don't walk in the victory Jesus Christ provided.


Lets look at what the Bible says is walking in the victory Jesus provided and what walking in the Spirit means as opposed to the flesh as non-believers.


This is what a person does walking in the flesh
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And this is what a person does walking in the Spirit
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Sickness is not mentioned in either description.

VerticalReality
Jan 7th 2007, 04:43 AM
Boy! I sure do see a lot of judgmental posts on here! I would not be so cruel as to say a person does not have enough faith to be healed, or they speak negative things and bring sickness upon themselves. Thank God, our family Physician does not see things that way!

Who's being judgemental? If you're talking about me, I was simply agreeing with miepie on the things she was saying about herself. How is that judgemental? I also find these sort of comments to be worse than those teaching that healing is not in God's will. You try to make those walking by faith feel ashamed for attempting to teach those same concepts to others. Nobody is trying to judge others here, so those sort of comments are completely unnecessary. I see people trying to help others. Was Jesus Christ judging the disciples when He talked to them about faith? Those sort of comments about judging are absurd. That's also not to mention that every single Christian walking the face of this earth is going to have problems with faith at some point in their walk. That is simply a fact. We are spiritual beings walking in earthen vessels, and doubt has a tendency to creep into the equation. That's just the way it is. If Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, and the rest had bouts with faith on occasion . . . every Christian today can expect the same thing as well. That shouldn't prevent us from teaching on those topics.


I have a question...but first, let me say that the leadership of this board does NOT adhere to Word of Faith, and for very good reasons. Sometimes it takes a lot of Bible study to get out of that teaching. And, the majority of Christians do not adhere to that teaching. I advise anyone who is unsure to check out some Christian Apologetic sites. Just type in Word of Faith.

I know that J Man believes in the WoF movement. However, I do not . . . so I hope you aren't including me in that category.


My question is this...little children are in hospitals all over the place suffering with cancer, Leukemia, and many life-threatening diseases. I don't understand why some of the WoF people can't go to them, and get them healed! These little kids are not old enough to know how to live righteously or to walk in holiness!

Because Jesus Christ stated that He does nothing that He doesn't see His Father doing first. It is the same way for us. We operate according to God's sovereign will. Even Jesus Christ didn't walk around healing every single person He came into contact with. Why? Because the circumstances in those people sometimes prevented it. Whether it be because of unbelief, sin, unforgiveness, or whatever else. However, this is getting off of what I was talking about, but maybe you aren't addressing me. I was speaking on dominion . . . not authority. I was talking about what has been taken care of for us under God's grace. Authority is a different topic all together.


Now, I want it known that I have received instant healing when I was prayed for! And I only bowed my head and closed my eyes out of respect to my husband who was the only one there, praying! I did not expect instant healing...my faith had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING!

Somebody's faith had something to do with it. It doesn't have to be yours. The centurion stood in for his servant. The father stood in for his son in Mark 9. However, again you are talking about authority . . . not dominion. Someone was given authority in that situation.


But, this was verified by my doctor! I have medical proof that suddenly, I didn't need the surgery any more, because the thing I needed it for was there...then it was NOT there. But my positive words and my amount of faith had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Are you listening?

Praise the Lord! Again, though, it doesn't have to have anything to do with your faith in that situation. However, somebody's faith was present.



I was studying the Word of God, and walking with the Lord BEFORE some of you were even born. I remember when the Word of Faith teachings began to get popular! I was caught up in it. I know what it is. But God over time showed me through the word what the truth is! I know what it is like to receive healing, and I know what it is to endure. I wish there was a way to know, say, 20 years from now if the adherents to WoF STILL believe that way!

So, why don't some of the WoF people put legs on all that faith that others are lacking? Start with the children's hospitals!


I, personally, don't believe in the word of faith doctrine. I can't speak for others here.



One more thing...here is a scripture...
Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Our words are not magic. Our faith is not magic. Period.


Nobody here has called our faith magic.



Mark 11:22
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
(Not faith in your words...not faith in faith...but have faith in God!)


Believing Ephesians 2:8-9 is having faith in God. It is by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God . . . not of works lest anyone should boast.

It is by God's grace you have been saved. Salvation is through the cross. The Word also instructs us that healing is through the cross as well. It's not something that Jesus Christ has to do continually. It is something that was provided once and for all. That is all a part of God's grace. It is His free gift towards us. We only need to accept it by faith.

VerticalReality
Jan 7th 2007, 05:05 AM
And your spirit isnt sick, but we are talking about healing the physical body.

Exactly! So, if my flesh is crucified and I'm walking according to the spirit, sickness has no victory in me. It's when we get caught up in the flesh that we succumb to the sicknesses of this world. How do we get caught up in the flesh? By not walking in faith. And let me tell you, if you don't believe Jesus Christ provided healing on the cross and it is covered under God's grace . . . that is the very definition of not walking by faith.



So what your saying is that they confessed they would get a cold and did?
That is classic NICI or Positive Confession. That is saying if they had said no I wont get a cold, they wouldnt have gotten it.


I'm not stating that it is related to what they confessed with their mouth . . . although I do believe that we can many times speak things into existence. I'm saying that you can see their faith and their state of mind by the words they speak. If you are worried about something of this world bringing you down . . . you aren't walking by faith. You are walking by the carnal mind.



Nothing has dominion over us, including death. However, this physical body will die. One way or another.


Nowhere in the Word does it state that Jesus Christ conquered our appointed time to die on the cross. That really does not relate to what we're speaking of here.


Notice I said "not hinder our faith in salvation".I didnt say anything about hanging out around temptation and not being effected by it.

You're going to have to clarify your point here.


Unbelievers are not expected to walk in the Faith. So even if every believer lived their life in complete obedience, there would still be sin in the world. In the world sin is a fact of life.

What does the sin of others have to do with your Christian walk? My walk with God is not bothered by another person's faith or lack thereof . . . it is effected by my own. I'm not seeing where you're coming from here.


Yes, as believers our flesh is to be crucified, we are to deny our flesh and walk in the Spirit. I am to let Jesus guide my behavior. But I am still walking around in a physical body If this body was dead and no longer an issue, why does the Bible say to deny the flesh. When we become believers our flesh doesnt stop being a problem. We still must continue on a daily basis to deny it authority over us. The world and its sin and sickness do effect our physical body, and our mind.

The only way sin and sickness effects your physical body is if you haven't crucified it. How can a dead body get sick? You get sick because your flesh is overriding the spirit.


I dont believe our spirit is immune to the pain in the world either. Have you never cried out to God, either on your own behalf or on the behalf of another. Have you not poured your soul out in prayer with pain for someone? That is the world effecting the spirit. Is crying physical just because there are tears, or is laughter physical just because we sound funny?

Our spirit is seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus. Our spirit is doing just fine.



Sickness is not mentioned in either description.


What is listed there is also not all that is included in what the flesh brings either. Notice in verse 21 it states "and such like". That means there are other things that are included when you are walking in the flesh.

You don't think faith is an issue when dealing with sickness? James 5:14-16 says otherwise. Those verses state that the sick person is in need of saving. Why? Because that sick person is caught up in bondage to the world and of the flesh. It says that the prayer of faith will save him. It indicates that this person is walking in something they shouldn't be. It also indicates that other fleshly things are involved as well, which is why it later goes on to say that if they've committed any sins they will be forgiven them. Sickness is a direct result of a lack of faith in some area. That is simply what the Word says. Nowhere in the Word does it say that sickness is just something that's a part of this life even for the born again believer, and it's something you're just going to have to deal with. If God promised those in the Old Testament health if they remained under His covenant, what more does He want to do for those who have given their hearts to His Son Jesus Christ?

the J Man
Jan 7th 2007, 06:18 AM
My question is this...little children are in hospitals all over the place suffering with cancer, Leukemia, and many life-threatening diseases. I don't understand why some of the WoF people can't go to them, and get them healed! These little kids are not old enough to know how to live righteously or to walk in holiness!

Do you think they would allow christians to come in to the hospitals and preach and teach the Word of God, then pray for people's healings and deliverance? We live in a society that wants to shut the dorr on God for everything. They don't want you talking about God in schools, they don't want God being mentioned amongst government employees, they don't want christians evamgelizeing on the streets, they don't want people who work in department stores saying "Merry Christmas" durig holday season, christians have often had to stand up for themselves just to have the right to openly be a christian at school.

If you were to go into the hospital and do that, you'd be thrown out very quickly. What you are allowed to do, is pray individually for the visitor that your there to see, but that's it.

Also, God wants the glory. If you just went to a public place and started layig hands on people, getting people healed, even though you did that in the name of Jesus, the media would be all over you. You would be getting all the praise and glory. The focus and attention would be on you. Even when you tried to explain to them that this was Jesus, stories would be published in newspapers twisting the facts around about how you are some superhealer. In Acts chapter3 , when Peter got the lame man healed, peter said "In the name of Jesus Christ of nazareth, rise up and walk." Peter did not perform the miracle healing, the Lord did. Peter was just a vessel doing the work of the Lord. But guess who people were crediting for that healing? Peter explaied to the poeple in vs12, "You men of Iseal, why marvel at this? Or why look so earnestly at us, as though by our own power or holiness we made this man to walk?" Then he goes on in vs13, to explain that this is the Lord's power that got the man healed. Ya see, with all the media coverage in this day and age, you the vesel that God used would be getting the glory that belongs to God. It would be very difficult for you to try and explain to the people who's power got the people healed.

In Matthew4:23,24, when Jesus got many healed and demons casted out of people, notice that before He got the people healed, He preached and teached the Word of God. Think there is a reason for that? he didn't just wak up and start healing people. he wwanted them to be taught the Word of God first. Even when you go to church service where they have annointed people getting people healed and delivered, they do that after the service, after the Word has been taught. If you go to a banny Hinn crusade, Benny teaches the Word to people. Many don't realize thast though. They only recognize how he is in the healing ministry. He teaches a lot about deliverance and about holiness.

About the need to teach the Word first, that explains a reason why we can't just go to the hospitals since they wouldn't allow us to teach the Word of God there since they don't want God being mentioned in facilities.





But there have been other times that I had to endure much suffering, and pain, and even wondering if I would ever walk again! And terrible surgeries. But, my faith never wavered, because like Paul I learned whatever state I was in, therewith to be content! And I know what it is to endure! And let me tell you, no matter WHAT we must go through in this fleshly body, He will walk through it with us, just like he did with Shadrach, Meschah and Abeddnigo! They had their fiery furnace to go through, and I've had mine! So do other people!

No-one said that we won't go through the fire at times. But Shadrach, meschach and Abeddnego, came out of the fire as well. They did not stay there. Job was afflicted by Satan, but Job did not remain that way the rest of hislife. He got healed and restored all that Satan caused him to lose.

I know a woman who is confined to a wheel chair. She is beliieving God for healing. She has been making progress. Before she could not walk at all. Now she is able to get up out of the wheel chair some and walk around a little. But she is not able to get rid of the wheel chair yet and is not yet totally healed. Ya see, many times, God's healing is gradual. It is a process. If He always healed instantly, people would depend on Him as much. If God was a drive-thru God, people wouldn't aprreciate Him as much. It keeps us praying and it keeps us in an upright walk with God.

I know an associate pastor that was in the hospital and should have died. He was in bad shape. But the Lord brought him out of it. He was in there a couple of weeks. I went and prayed with him, the prayers that he received from people worked for God answers the prayers of the righteous, but it wasn't instant. God allowed him to endure it for a couple weeks. He had a real testimony though when he got out of the hospital.

Many of you's have such a misunderstanding of WOF, that you think we just expect everything to be instant. You seem to think of us as people who treat God as a genie in a bottle because we do believe in the important of faith and faith is an action word. You need to speak faith. We do believe in declaring the blessings of God, claiming what belongs to us. We don't believe in just name whatever you want, whenever you want it, however you want it. Some of you's don't seem to even realize that we are christians. Some think we are in a cult. We ar enot a cult, we ar epeople who believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as saviour. We are saved by His grace, without Him, we are lost, He paid the price of our sins on the cross, that if whosoever believes in Him, shall never perish but have everlasting life(John3:16). There is no salvation other than through Christ(Acts4:12 and John14:6).


But, if you look close enough, as we are walking in WHATEVER we must walk through in this life, you will see one walking there with us...and you will be compelled to say, "That other man looks like the Son of God!"

It took real faith for the 3 Shadrach, Meschach and Abendego to go through that fire, it takes real faith to hang on and trust that God is right there with us in the midst of it all, when going through adverse circumstances. But ya see, that is when you need. faith. Not when everything is going a-okay for you, but when your going through rough times.




So, why don't some of the WoF people put legs on all that faith that others are lacking? Start with the children's hospitals!

Ya know, miracles happen regulalry in Africa, Asia, and Latin America, so the question is, why isn't these things happening in America? Why are we not seeing the power of God in America or in Europe? If it happens a lot in these other coutries, why isn't it happening in countries that have had things economically good? I personally believe because people have gotten so out of the will of God, their hearts are not set upon the things of God like they should be. In countries where people don't have it so good, they have to depend on God. Here, people have become to think they can live self sufficiently.

I have seen some miracles in church. But the people there are submitted to God. They are dedicated to doing His will. They are not complacent and lukewarm. They are not so filled with the world that you cannot tell them apart from the world itself. Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel to the wrld, to go out and heal the sick, cleanse the leper, cast out devils(mark16:15-18). But if yuor not committed to God, it is not going to happen. If your complacent and lukewarm, don't expect the power of God to operate in your life. Jesus commnded the disciples to heal the sick, to cleanse the leper, cast out devils, and raise the dead. They were willing to do what jesus assigned them to do. Same thing with the 70 followers in Luke10:1-19. They were comitted to serving the Lord. They were not lukewarm and complacent.




Our words are not magic. Our faith is not magic. Period.

No-one ever said it was. We do not depend on witchcraft, but on the Holy Spiirt.

quiet dove
Jan 7th 2007, 06:28 AM
QD
And your spirit isnt sick, but we are talking about healing the physical body.
VR
Exactly! So, if my flesh is crucified and I'm walking according to the spirit, sickness has no victory in me. It's when we get caught up in the flesh that we succumb to the sicknesses of this world. How do we get caught up in the flesh? By not walking in faith. And let me tell you, if you don't believe Jesus Christ provided healing on the cross and it is covered under God's grace . . . that is the very definition of not walking by faith.



That isnt exactly it. the flesh is crucified and walking in the spirit doesnt make the physical body imune to the world. Even if a person never gets sick, when you get older and older, the physical body is eventually going to fall apart with some problem or another, which is sickness. Our physical bodies were not meant to go on and on. It will deteriorate and die, one way or another. Late in someones ninties or when they are days old and anywhere inbetween. People with illness, deformities, injuries, live victoriously in Christ everyday.



QD
Nothing has dominion over us, including death. However, this physical body will die. One way or another.
VR
Nowhere in the Word does it state that Jesus Christ conquered our appointed time to die on the cross. That really does not relate to what we're speaking of here.



The Bible says
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Our appointed time to die on a cross? Jesus died, on a cross, for us. And paid in full for our sins.

I dont know what you mean if you are equating our physical death to our "appointed time to die on the cross".



QD
Notice I said "not hinder our faith in salvation".I didnt say anything about hanging out around temptation and not being effected by it.
VR
You're going to have to clarify your point here.



I was responding to this


VR
It does! Many Christians surround themselves with sin all the time, and it does have an effect on their faith. Why do you think the Word instructs us not to surround ourselves with that stuff all the time? Draw nigh to the Lord and He will draw nigh to you. However, draw nigh to sin and it will draw nigh to you as well. Sin definitely has a strong effect on faith.



If seeing sickness in the world makes a believer think they should except sickness in their life, seeing sin in the world would make us think we should except sin in our lives. And no believer thinks its ok to have sin in their life.

Faith in our salvation is an entirely different thing than associating ourselves in situations we know we shouldnt be in. "resist the devil and he will flee". I am not saying draw nigh to sin, I am saying that seeing sin in the world does not make a believer loose faith in their salvation.



You don't think faith is an issue when dealing with sickness? James 5:14-16 says otherwise. Those verses state that the sick person is in need of saving. Why? Because that sick person is caught up in bondage to the world and of the flesh. It says that the prayer of faith will save him. It indicates that this person is walking in something they shouldn't be. It also indicates that other fleshly things are involved as well, which is why it later goes on the say that if they've committed any sins they will be forgiven them. Sickness is a direct result of a lack of faith in some area. That is simply what the Word says. Nowhere in the Word does it say that sickness is just something that's a part of this life even for the born again believer, and it's something you're just going to have to deal with. If God promised those in the Old Testament health if they remained under His covenant, what more does He want to do for those who have given their hearts to His Son Jesus Christ?


John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Faith, along with healing are listed as gifts, Does this mean God hasnt given every believer the gift of faith so we are suffering with sickness. He hasnt given every believer the rest of the gifts listed.

Jesus in John 9:1 or James equated sickness with sin, and sin would mean they were not living a victorious life. So living in the flesh isnt the only cause of sin. james 5:15...And if he has sinned...

Gods dealing with Israel is a lot of times conditional, blessing for obedience, hardship for disobedience. I fully believe we will at some point be held accountable for our actions, so dont get me wrong. But conditions were not a part of the Everlasting Covenant through Christ.

The Bible says Abraham believed God
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We must believe God, then faith grows, and it is a gift.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I would agree that sin can be a root cause of illness, but not the only one. But even in these verses, it is a matter of honest self examination before God and confession of sin by the one who is sick. Also the person offering the prayer should be walking righteously before God. It doesnt say the prayer of a man of strong faith it says the prayer of a righteous man. Though a righteous man would probably have faith.

CML
Jan 7th 2007, 08:46 AM
Mieke, darling......you are such an amazing woman of faith. You already know I feel that way about you already, but as I've been sitting here read through your posts.... so many great posts....posts after posts where you have testified of the power of God to deliver you THROUGH your circumstances, to say that you have blessed me would be a vast understatement.

So many people here are blessed by you, inspired by you, comforted by the God you serve, and you do serve Him well.

I have no doubt there will come a day when you will hear those words you so long to hear: "well done, My good and faithful servant!" and yes, you will dance before Him. :hug:

Until then you serve Him as He has called you to do, and you keep testifying of His grace, His love and His faithfulness....and I am sooooooo glad you have not allowed yourself to be hurt by false teachings. I have known people who have been hurt terribly by these teachings.

You have shown a lot of courage by coming into this thread because the potential for harm to your dear heart was so very high...but thank God He has strengthened your faith so much. And speaking of your faith, I must say....I marvel at your faith. Your faith is beautiful to behold! I'm so glad you aren't allowing the enemy to whisper in your ear that your faith is somehow lacking....because clearly you have a very strong, deep, and steadfast faith in Almighty God.

I pray God will continue to guard your heart as you walk the road ahead.

Love you,
Michelle

CML
Jan 7th 2007, 08:58 AM
Some of the people on here do seem to think like that though. They think that God just likes to see us suffer. Satan is the one who comes to steal,kill and destroy, ye some christians think that is Gods will?:confused
J Man, its one thing to say that "God does not always heal us when we ask Him; sometimes He has a plan and a purpose for our suffering" but quite another to say "God likes to see us suffer". No, sir, you are wrong, there isn't anyone here who would say or think such a thing! :eek:

CML
Jan 7th 2007, 09:47 AM
God knows how to protect those who are His.

It is my prayer that anyone "out there" reading through this thread, who may be confused about WF, would receive an extra blessing of spiritual discernment from the Lord; that the Holy Spirit would carefully lead them to the truth about this matter.

I wanted to share how some friends of mine were hurt severely by this false doctrine.

In the early '80s (I had not yet met them at that time), my friends, a young, newly married couple at that time, had the pleasure of welcoming their first baby into the world, a boy.

He was beautiful, but it was discovered that he was sickly and required a blood transfusion. It was still so early, and the medical profession was barely just beginning to learn about HIV and AIDS. No one realized that the terrible HIV virus, which would later be come to be known as the manifestation of AIDS, could be transmitted through blood transfusions.

Little newborn James received a blood transfusion, and tragicly, with it he also received the AIDS-causing HIV virus.

As the world was learning about HIV and AIDS, so were my Christian friends learning about it, and to their horror, finding out that James had acquired it in the hospital just after birth.

Imagine their devastating pain! Their precious baby boy was sick with a mysterious illness!

And imagine the utter despair they felt when they turned to other Christians for prayer, support, and love, and what they received instead was additional pain....pain caused by being told that they did not have enough faith for their little baby to be healed.

James grew from toddlerhood into a boy and was a boy of tremendous faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He loved God. He did not complain about his sickness, nor did he question God about it. It was his strong faith which in turn helped his parents deal with their sorrow (supposed to be the parents helping the child; but James helped his parents :). He touched many lives during his years on earth, and then, when it was his time, the Lord welcomed James into eternity.

His parents eventually got over their deep hurt caused by this false teaching, but before they did, it lingered for some time. There was no one there who told them "no, those teachings are false, THIS is what the Bible has to say". Like I said at the beginning of this post, God does know how to protect His own...and He does. Sadly, this couple I know went through this heartache having been taught this doctrine. It doesn't have to be that way with everyone, though. Many people are speaking out against it.

They are just one of soooooooo many similar stories. It is a shame, it truly is.

Michelle

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/whatwordfaith.html



http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar63.htm

miepie
Jan 7th 2007, 10:35 AM
Mieke, darling......you are such an amazing woman of faith. You already know I feel that way about you already, but as I've been sitting here read through your posts.... so many great posts....posts after posts where you have testified of the power of God to deliver you THROUGH your circumstances, to say that you have blessed me would be a vast understatement.

So many people here are blessed by you, inspired by you, comforted by the God you serve, and you do serve Him well.

I have no doubt there will come a day when you will hear those words you so long to hear: "well done, My good and faithful servant!" and yes, you will dance before Him. :hug:

Until then you serve Him as He has called you to do, and you keep testifying of His grace, His love and His faithfulness....and I am sooooooo glad you have not allowed yourself to be hurt by false teachings. I have known people who have been hurt terribly by these teachings.

You have shown a lot of courage by coming into this thread because the potential for harm to your dear heart was so very high...but thank God He has strengthened your faith so much. And speaking of your faith, I must say....I marvel at your faith. Your faith is beautiful to behold! I'm so glad you aren't allowing the enemy to whisper in your ear that your faith is somehow lacking....because clearly you have a very strong, deep, and steadfast faith in Almighty God.

I pray God will continue to guard your heart as you walk the road ahead.

Love you,
Michelle
Thanks Michelle... :hug:

I dared to go into this discussion because I know my faith is strong enough to do so.... but I know that there are people on this board that should stay as far as possible from this discussion, just because they could lose their faith over it......

What I don't understand is that someone can state there is something between healing asnd you if you are not healed.... whether it is is living to the flesh or sin, or even not enough faith..... Everyone that knows me knows that I would give up everything I own for God..... I have followed God on numerous occassions just because He said that I should go a certain way and even though I had no clue where I was going.... I just trusted Him and went His Way....

One example of that is that years ago I had so much pain that I was looking for a different doctor.... I was busy arranging at all... asking permission on my insurance and seeing how I could get there..... and just when I thought I got everything rolling, God said No!....... I was so sure that this doctor was the solution and it took some struggle but I just could't go ahead with it.... my flesh wanted to but God didn't and I couldn't get myself to disobey Him.... so I did not go..... two years later God did allow me to go to that doctor... I was in a complete different situation in life and now with a man that did support me in everything and although the doc can't cure me, she has made my life a lot better in a few ways.... not complete healing, but partly...... the disease I have is incurable in my stage.....
What is clear here is that God sometimes says: Not yet........ and that it is not in His Plan yet to heal you (partially in my case).... in my case finally my prayers were answered to do something useful for God with my sick body and I got healed sufficiently to perform that task. I have no doubt that if God wanted me to do something else, He would heal me accordingly......

I have done everything in the Bible to get healed..... I have been prayed over by thousands in the world (whole churches have prayed over me in my country and the USA), I have been anointed several times, elders prayed over me by laying their hands upon me...... and I have felt God's Presence during those anointments... I have literally felt God's Hand anoint me after the Minister touched me and those anointments have given me so much strength to fight this disease again... and the last anointment in August has given me His Peace that passes all understanding..... but none of them gave me healing in any way......

Right now God has led me away from synthetic morfine and I followed Him again..... where others take weeks to get off it, I managed to do it in 4 days! And I did not even feel that bad..... stopping these meds led to more pain and has shown that the dystrophy is further in the body than we knew.... the morfine masqued that, so apparently God wanted to show me that.... I have no clue where this road leads... but I don't have to know, because God knows..... Right now I am on a special diet for people with my disease.... it's not that great of a diet..... no fun at all.... but God wants me to do that, so I do it..... how much more obedience do I need to show? I am reading the Bible from cover to cover, I am doing Biblestudies on the board and with my husband (who is a Bibleteacher and an elder, and also has laid his hands on me and prayed over me numerous times by the way), and I am working here most of the day (my Ministry is temporarily non-active because I have my arm in a cast) and try to encourage people and pray for the people who need it...... what more do I need to do to receive healing? I do know that if I pray God does take my pains away, or gives me strength to bear it, when I am in a hospital for a difficult treatment I feel He is with me.... He either holds my Hand, my feet (depending on the test), He shows Himself to me or just makes me feel His Presence.... so it's not like He does not answer me.....

I know that the way I am now, with my sick disabled body, God can use me in ways that He would lose when I would get healed..... I got all day long just to work for Him and people get encouragement out of the fact that even though God does not heal me, I am still strong in faith.....
I am not saying that is the reason why He does not heal me.... again I believe He has healed me, I am just not in the right point of time in His Plan to perceive it.... one day I know I will be healed but I don't know whether I will still roll around on this world when that happens...... I am out of the real world for so long now, that maybe God thinks that I would not fit in there anymore........

And I know I am not perfect.... it's not easy to be this sick.... I confess my sins and I try to take up my cross and carry it..... I have come from a long way to be able to do this.... but I am trying to be obedient as much as possible.... no matter whether I like it what He tells me to do..... He has helped me the last few weeks to put my funeralarrangements on paper (so it will be a Praise service to Him)..... He doesn't do that for no reason.... I am hoping to stay around here for a while but I am ready to go if it is His Will.......

I would love to be healed.... but the only way I want it is if that is what God wants for me..... no compromises there..... I have lost a child, I have lost my dreams I had when I was healthier, I can't even travel farther than half an hour out of town, 9 out of 10 days I don't see more than the room I am in, or the hospital.... I can't visit my family out of town, I can't even make it to visit my friend 10 minutes away from me..... there are so many things I cannot do.... we have problems in more areas than my health, and my husband has problems with his health too..... but God gives him the power to take care of me.... we are depending on a lot of people to do things for us....
but through it all my faith grew and I got stronger along the way..... my flesh got weak and still gets weaker but my Spirit grows above it all and is blossomming through it all.... God is building my Spirit strong so I can take that with me when I go Home..... God has healed me Spiritually in many ways and has given me a husband who taught me how to apply the Bible to our lives, I am hungry for the Word again and studying the Bible because He is showing me that is important....... it has been a hard road..... and the road will get even rockier the way I am going.... but that's ok but I know my Father is with me and Jesus is carrying me through it all and the Holy Spirit is leading me the right way...... if that is not enough faith or healing, then so be it..... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

ProjectPeter
Jan 7th 2007, 04:25 PM
Do you think they would allow christians to come in to the hospitals and preach and teach the Word of God, then pray for people's healings and deliverance? We live in a society that wants to shut the dorr on God for everything. They don't want you talking about God in schools, they don't want God being mentioned amongst government employees, they don't want christians evamgelizeing on the streets, they don't want people who work in department stores saying "Merry Christmas" durig holday season, christians have often had to stand up for themselves just to have the right to openly be a christian at school.

f you were to go into the hospital and do that, you'd be thrown out very quickly. What you are allowed to do, is pray individually for the visitor that your there to see, but that's it. Well for the sake of intellectual honesty here... those are fairly recent laws. Ten years ago and beyond you could go into most any hospital and visit whomever you wanted save some of the critical care units and the like which were germ controlled environments. They didn't stop that from happening because a bunch of preachers were emptying the hospital of sick folk either.

Talking about God in schools and all that... other topics that have nothing to do with this one so I won't comment.



Also, God wants the glory. If you just went to a public place and started layig hands on people, getting people healed, even though you did that in the name of Jesus, the media would be all over you. You would be getting all the praise and glory. The focus and attention would be on you. Even when you tried to explain to them that this was Jesus, stories would be published in newspapers twisting the facts around about how you are some superhealer. In Acts chapter3 , when Peter got the lame man healed, peter said "In the name of Jesus Christ of nazareth, rise up and walk." Peter did not perform the miracle healing, the Lord did. Peter was just a vessel doing the work of the Lord. But guess who people were crediting for that healing? Peter explaied to the poeple in vs12, "You men of Iseal, why marvel at this? Or why look so earnestly at us, as though by our own power or holiness we made this man to walk?" Then he goes on in vs13, to explain that this is the Lord's power that got the man healed. Ya see, with all the media coverage in this day and age, you the vesel that God used would be getting the glory that belongs to God. It would be very difficult for you to try and explain to the people who's power got the people healed.

In Matthew4:23,24, when Jesus got many healed and demons casted out of people, notice that before He got the people healed, He preached and teached the Word of God. Think there is a reason for that? he didn't just wak up and start healing people. he wwanted them to be taught the Word of God first. Even when you go to church service where they have annointed people getting people healed and delivered, they do that after the service, after the Word has been taught. If you go to a banny Hinn crusade, Benny teaches the Word to people. Many don't realize thast though. They only recognize how he is in the healing ministry. He teaches a lot about deliverance and about holiness.

About the need to teach the Word first, that explains a reason why we can't just go to the hospitals since they wouldn't allow us to teach the Word of God there since they don't want God being mentioned in facilities.

No-one said that we won't go through the fire at times. But Shadrach, meschach and Abeddnego, came out of the fire as well. They did not stay there. Job was afflicted by Satan, but Job did not remain that way the rest of hislife. He got healed and restored all that Satan caused him to lose.

I know a woman who is confined to a wheel chair. She is beliieving God for healing. She has been making progress. Before she could not walk at all. Now she is able to get up out of the wheel chair some and walk around a little. But she is not able to get rid of the wheel chair yet and is not yet totally healed. Ya see, many times, God's healing is gradual. It is a process. If He always healed instantly, people would depend on Him as much. If God was a drive-thru God, people wouldn't aprreciate Him as much. It keeps us praying and it keeps us in an upright walk with God.

I know an associate pastor that was in the hospital and should have died. He was in bad shape. But the Lord brought him out of it. He was in there a couple of weeks. I went and prayed with him, the prayers that he received from people worked for God answers the prayers of the righteous, but it wasn't instant. God allowed him to endure it for a couple weeks. He had a real testimony though when he got out of the hospital.

Many of you's have such a misunderstanding of WOF, that you think we just expect everything to be instant. You seem to think of us as people who treat God as a genie in a bottle because we do believe in the important of faith and faith is an action word. You need to speak faith. We do believe in declaring the blessings of God, claiming what belongs to us. We don't believe in just name whatever you want, whenever you want it, however you want it. Some of you's don't seem to even realize that we are christians. Some think we are in a cult. We ar enot a cult, we ar epeople who believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as saviour. We are saved by His grace, without Him, we are lost, He paid the price of our sins on the cross, that if whosoever believes in Him, shall never perish but have everlasting life(John3:16). There is no salvation other than through Christ(Acts4:12 and John14:6).

It took real faith for the 3 Shadrach, Meschach and Abendego to go through that fire, it takes real faith to hang on and trust that God is right there with us in the midst of it all, when going through adverse circumstances. But ya see, that is when you need. faith. Not when everything is going a-okay for you, but when your going through rough times.





Ya know, miracles happen regulalry in Africa, Asia, and Latin America, so the question is, why isn't these things happening in America? Why are we not seeing the power of God in America or in Europe? If it happens a lot in these other coutries, why isn't it happening in countries that have had things economically good? I personally believe because people have gotten so out of the will of God, their hearts are not set upon the things of God like they should be. In countries where people don't have it so good, they have to depend on God. Here, people have become to think they can live self sufficiently.

I have seen some miracles in church. But the people there are submitted to God. They are dedicated to doing His will. They are not complacent and lukewarm. They are not so filled with the world that you cannot tell them apart from the world itself. Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel to the wrld, to go out and heal the sick, cleanse the leper, cast out devils(mark16:15-18). But if yuor not committed to God, it is not going to happen. If your complacent and lukewarm, don't expect the power of God to operate in your life. Jesus commnded the disciples to heal the sick, to cleanse the leper, cast out devils, and raise the dead. They were willing to do what jesus assigned them to do. Same thing with the 70 followers in Luke10:1-19. They were comitted to serving the Lord. They were not lukewarm and complacent.





No-one ever said it was. We do not depend on witchcraft, but on the Holy Spiirt.Let me show you the difference Jman between today's WOF movement and the three young Hebrew men that you mention a couple of times and their going through the fire.

Daniel 3:13 ¶Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.
14 Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up?
15 "Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe, and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you will not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"
16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.
17 "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
18 "But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

What you see highlighted there in red... todays WOF movement does not allow for such as that. BUT EVEN IF HE DOESN'T. That would be seen by most as a negative confession and had they been burned by that fire instead you would hear that taught as the reason why they did. So while there are certainly issues that many are slack on regarding faith... there is also a whole lot of bad stuff coming out of the WOF movement. That would be one simple sample of such.

quiet dove
Jan 7th 2007, 10:05 PM
It is my prayer that anyone "out there" reading through this thread, who may be confused about WF, would receive an extra blessing of spiritual discernment from the Lord; that the Holy Spirit would carefully lead them to the truth about this matter.



:amen:

The object of our desire should be Jesus. The danger with the teachings that do hold to salvation through Christ teaching bad doctrine is that because they do hold with the true Gospel, they are believers, but the teaching has gone from Christ as the desire, to the faith as the desire of their hearts. And what that faith can do for us. Of course, faith in itself, is not bad, its a gift.

Once again, the devil has sidetracked people, and he is an artist at using the scriptures to sidetrack and mislead. With the NICI and WOF the priority is taken from the spritual growth we should experience and taken to the physical. And then teaches that our spiritual health is reflected by our physical health. And that just isnt so. Our spiritual health is reflected in our relationship with Christ. Living victoriously in Christ doesnt have anything to do with whether we are sick or healthy.

I would also like to say, we need to be patient with those who are mislead, speak the truth with love and compasion, be patient. After delusion takes hold it is very difficult to see around and most likely impossible with out guidence from the Holy Spirit. It takes realizing to matter what they confess or how positive it is, even if they have health and/or wealth, their lives are still lacking that something they were looking for in the first place. But that is a big bite of reality and it is hard to swallow.

But the problem isnt totally those who are mislead. If our churches were stronger, and the believers were living before God as we should. There would be more elders and people to do the praying. More righteouns men and women to pray a prayer of faith. We are not where we should be as believers, that I agree with, and the only way these false teachings took hold in the churches is due to a lack of solid leadership. Its easy to lead the sheep astray when the sheperds are so easily mislead. Not just leaders but all of us who have stumbled in our walk and let the unbelievers and young christians down.

And I am also guilty, may God forgive me for having let down so many people all the times I was scared and not standing for the One I trust.

James 5:16 Confess your faults (your own faults, not everyone elses)one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous (one who believes God)man availeth much.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 7th 2007, 10:44 PM
Once again, the devil has sidetracked people, and he is an artist at using the scriptures to sidetrack and mislead.


You know, I was just thinking about this yesterday. I know I am stating the obvious, but it is startling to see how many times in the Bible Satan uses Scripture to mislead Christians! It almost seems like Satan prefers to use the Bible to mislead Christians. Just look at Eve in the garden of Eden, the Pharisees in the gospels, Jesus in the desert.

Interesting. And like you say, it makes it all the more important to stay close to Jesus, develop an intimate relationship with Him, know the Word, and above all, keep Jesus at the center of focus in every aspect. It's all about Jesus and seeing Him glorified - not about our prosperity, our health, our goodness. Though those things are good in and of themselves, they should not become the focus of our heart. Jesus and Him glorified should be our goal and focus. Everything else becomes an idol when it becomes our focus.

*Madeline*
Jan 7th 2007, 10:51 PM
Let me show you the difference Jman between today's WOF movement and the three young Hebrew men that you mention a couple of times and their going through the fire.

Daniel 3:17,18 "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
18 "But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

What you see highlighted there in red... todays WOF movement does not allow for such as that. BUT EVEN IF HE DOESN'T. That would be seen by most as a negative confession and had they been burned by that fire instead you would hear that taught as the reason why they did. So while there are certainly issues that many are slack on regarding faith... there is also a whole lot of bad stuff coming out of the WOF movement. That would be one simple sample of such.

That is an excellent verse PP!:) It was not because of lack of faith that all three of them said 'But if not', but rather they had recognized that sometimes it is the will of God for his servants to die serving the Lord. They also realized the total sovereignty of God, and He alone chooses their fate. Some people put more power in their prayers than they do in God. *sigh*

Love,
Madeline

VerticalReality
Jan 7th 2007, 10:57 PM
I could go through all these responses and counter with actual scripture, but there really isn't much of a point in it. Miepie, I enjoyed the conversation with you, and I will keep you in my prayers. You may not agree, and I can accept that. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these issues in a respectable tone without including the digs that others felt necessary to throw in there. The conversation was going well initially. It would have been nice if it would have remained that way. However, when people make some of the comments that were made, you can tell that this thread is only going to continue in a very unproductive direction. It's best to just bow out now.

We could have simply discussed scripture, but this sort of topic tends to push people towards anger and defensiveness. I'm honest enough to know that my faith isn't always going to be there as it should be in some areas. That's a part of this Christian walk. God expected the same, which is why you see it all throughout scripture. However, Christians these days are so confident that they have this thing all figured out and their faith is never shaken, and they walk in absolute faith for any and everything. That's a thought that is completely contrary to scripture. If the apostles, who walked with Jesus Christ and saw all the miracles, had problems with faith from time to time, who are we to believe that we will not? I've never understood why some Christians feel they are so beyond that fact.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 8th 2007, 12:13 AM
I am a firm believer in the power of God and the importance of the words we say. I will say, however, that the only area in which the Father tells us to test Him, is in the tithe. We should not be under the impression that we can test Him or our faith in anything else. I thought PP quoted a great verse 'But even if He doesn't'! That speaks volumes into this discussion. I have another that I feel is appropriate.

Luke 22:41-44
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

I believe Jesus shows us by example that what is most important is that God's will be done in our lives, not our own will that we name and claim. You see that God supplied an angel to strengthen Him through what needed to be done. Also, see that the power of prayer was more important than Jesus expecting His own will to be done. All that being said, we should be aware of all of God's promises and live our life expecting His best but not requiring Him to jump through any hoops to satisfy our will.

God Bless!

HisGrace
Jan 8th 2007, 12:50 AM
Daniel 3:18 "But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."
After Jesus' ascension He sent his Holy Spirit so, through prayer and supplication, we should be able to discern whether Jesus wants us to be healed. Joni Ericksen and miepie have obviously come to that reality. However, how many times through the Holy Spirit's promptings are we told that He will actually heal us, and we dismiss it as a wrong notion we made up in our own minds, or don't stand on the Word for scriptures that God reveals to us through His Spirit.

We should be able to learn through discernment if God really wants to heal us.

the J Man
Jan 8th 2007, 01:35 AM
Let me show you the difference Jman between today's WOF movement and the three young Hebrew men that you mention a couple of times and their going through the fire.

There is no difference. WOF churches don't deny that persecution will come to believers. They realize very well that persecution will come upon those who live Godly.


Daniel 3:13 ¶Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.
14 Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up?
15 "Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe, and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you will not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"
16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.
17 "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
18 "But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

What you see highlighted there in red... todays WOF movement does not allow for such as that. BUT EVEN IF HE DOESN'T.

You absolutely wrong about that one.


there is also a whole lot of bad stuff coming out of the WOF movement.

I have seen numerous good things come out of WOF churches.

ProjectPeter
Jan 8th 2007, 05:26 AM
I am a firm believer in the power of God and the importance of the words we say. I will say, however, that the only area in which the Father tells us to test Him, is in the tithe. We should not be under the impression that we can test Him or our faith in anything else. I thought PP quoted a great verse 'But even if He doesn't'! That speaks volumes into this discussion. I have another that I feel is appropriate.

Luke 22:41-44
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

I believe Jesus shows us by example that what is most important is that God's will be done in our lives, not our own will that we name and claim. You see that God supplied an angel to strengthen Him through what needed to be done. Also, see that the power of prayer was more important than Jesus expecting His own will to be done. All that being said, we should be aware of all of God's promises and live our life expecting His best but not requiring Him to jump through any hoops to satisfy our will.

God Bless!
Another passage that comes to mind.

James 4:13 ¶Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit."
14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15 Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that."
16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.

Folks that understand that really do have much understanding. While certainly it is perfectly fine and a good thing to have a positive attitude... that positive attitude doesn't effect God's will for a person. If God wants you to do this or that and instead your positive attitude has you doing something else... you might gain material wealth for a while... but in the end it won't profit you a thing.

Hard work and drive and determination can take a person in the US very far. But if it was a godly principle then it would work in Russia, the Ukraine, Africa, etc. etc. While that hard worker might not starve to death and he can eke out enough food to keep the family alive... there are many nations where that is the best their hard work can do because of oppression by their governments and tribal leaders and war lords etc. They are far from prosperous by anyone's standard of prosperity.

Unfortunately... it is easy for folks living in the Western world to grasp some of this and run with it and for a variety of reasons. Not such an easy sell though in a lot of other nations.

ProjectPeter
Jan 8th 2007, 05:28 AM
There is no difference. WOF churches don't deny that persecution will come to believers. They realize very well that persecution will come upon those who live Godly. Define persecution?

the J Man
Jan 8th 2007, 06:39 AM
Define persecution?

Persecution means to suffer injury, affliction or harrassment because of belief of what one stands for. Persecution is when Satan uses people to rise up against you to try and tear your down, to destroy you, to stop you from dojng what God has called you to do. Persecution can be physical or verbal. Satan will come at you in whatever way he feels he has a shot at stopping you from doing what God calls for you to do. People being jailed, beaten, dying a martys death, or even verbal insults, people turning against you, being accused, is persecution. Satan will use whomever he can to do that to you. Persecution comes when you are standing for righteousness, when you speak the truth without compromise. Not only many in the world, but even some within the church will rise up against you when you persuade people to holiness and repentance.

Now I go to a WOF type church that believes in the supernatural power of God and in operating in the gifts of the Spirit, and we certainly recognize that persecution will come against those who live Godly as the bible says. Jesus said it Himself that we would encounter hatred because of our stance for Him. In this liberal day and age, all you have to do is declare that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and that without Him your lost, and you will be maliciously persecuted. The insults and that will be hurled at you for doing so. Anyone standing for Christ will have to face ridicule and mockery and it will even get worse in this nation.

ProjectPeter
Jan 8th 2007, 02:48 PM
So in keeping with the topic... an example.

I speak out against a teacher of the WOF teacher who is teaching folks instead of paying half a bill and working things out with say he Power Company... they teach that if the person doesn't have the entire amount then that money isn't for the bill but is instead "seed money" and they should put it in the offering plate... instead I say that is bad teaching. What they should do is contact the power company and make arrangements with them and pay half the bill now and the other half the next time they get a check.

Or another example.

I speak against a WOF teacher that proclaims a curse on folks that oppose their doctrine... is that persecuting them? Because here is a fact... they think it is. Do you subscribe to that too since I am speaking of prominent WOF teachers?

cheech
Jan 8th 2007, 05:17 PM
To be honest, I have never heard of the term "name it and claim it". I must live out in the cave next to moonglow (another thread joke :lol:) :hmm:. I have read through many but not all of the posts and thought I'd add in my 2 pennies.

I am a huge believer in faith. There are many many verses in the bible regarding faith and believing we will receive what we ask for. Although I believe all of those verses, I like this one the best:


1 John 5:13-15
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

I like this one the best because it states "if we ask anything according to his will". The other verses tend to leave the meaning open ended...in other words...that you may receive anything you want. I've read the phrase "genie in a bottle" used here. I suppose that is correct in the way many may see it. When we pray, be it for ourselves or others, we must not pray selfishly. When someone truly is need and prays for help, God hears them and knows what they need before they ask for it. But, how we see God answering our prayers and how HE answers them can be two different things.

I'd like to address the faith and healing the sick issue discussed. Yes, I believe God truly can heal the sick with faith. With that said, does that mean those who have tremendous faith but are still ill don't have enough faith? Not in the least! Every single difficulty and problem is used for God's glory and God will use every situation. Maybe God healed that person in a different way...spiritually...by giving them strength to get through their illness. Maybe by healing them spiritually although they are still ill, it is bringing strength and comfort to others in the same situation. It is still a healing, just not the healing we are looking for. It still gorifies God.

I also believe mentality can have an enormous effect on our difficulties. How many times have we read reports from doctors and research that how a persons mentality going into a surgery can make all the difference in the world on their recovery. Many who are spiritual and go into a surgery with a positive attitude seem to heal quicker than those going in worried and scared.

We have a friend back in KS (I've told this before but warrants telling it again) who had breast cancer several years ago. She got through it. Then a couple years ago her cancer came back and she had to go through chemo. She refused to think negative thoughts and would not allow anyone to speak negatively about her condition. If someone tried to she would cut them off. She left her condition in God's hands, praying daily as would others. She then began having headaches and they found that she had a good size tumor on her brain. Still, she would not thing negatively although we knew she was scared. On one of our last bible studies before moving, we laid hands on her and prayed for God to bring healing to her. She was due to go and discuss possible operation to remove the tumor. A couple weeks after we moved, I emailed her to find out what the doctor found. Amazingly enough, she reported that she went back and they did another scan to decide where they were going to operate...and found NO tumor. They were amazed! Her headaches had eased as well. Her cancer is also in remission and she is doing well now.

Here you see where an amazing healing took place. God showed his glory in that respect. He also shows his glory in healing others spiritually although they may still be ill. It's a healing none the less although it's not a physical healing as what many look for when speaking about "healing".

When I pray for things, i do not pray specifically anymore...sure I may say "God this is what I want" but I end with "God it doesn't matter what I want but please give what I need according to YOUR will". I've told the story of getting our home many times. I never prayed to get our home...I only told God what we were looking for and requested he find a home for us where HE wanted us to live and according to our needs. Do you know we found a home, one I passed up the first time, and it turned out to be everything we actually asked for.

Pray for needs (not wants) according to God's will. If it's good for us and what he feels we need, he will supply it. If it doesn't benefit us, he won't. It depends on what he feels is necessary for us.

the J Man
Jan 8th 2007, 05:41 PM
So in keeping with the topic... an example.

I speak out against a teacher of the WOF teacher who is teaching folks instead of paying half a bill and working things out with say he Power Company... they teach that if the person doesn't have the entire amount then that money isn't for the bill but is instead "seed money" and they should put it in the offering plate... instead I say that is bad teaching. What they should do is contact the power company and make arrangements with them and pay half the bill now and the other half the next time they get a check.

I agree with that. When it comes to giving, give as the Lord leads you. Not what how man tells you to give. Use common sense and pay that bill off. Be a good steward with money and keep yourself out of debt. But not all WOF teachers would say to do that. In a world where there is a love for money, you will always find people who will do such stuff. Just like in the corpoate world, there are crook always looking for ways to manipulate people and cheat people, we live in a crooked world. That is why we need to use wisdom. When it comes to christianity, we need to know what the Word says and go by what the Word says. At the church I go to, they would never try and pressue you into giving. You give as the Lord leads you to give. They are not out for people's money, they are out to do the will of the Lord.


Or another example.

I speak against a WOF teacher that proclaims a curse on folks that oppose their doctrine... is that persecuting them? Because here is a fact... they think it is. Do you subscribe to that too since I am speaking of prominent WOF teachers?

I have never heard anyone say that but we are not to go by the doctrine of man, but that of the Word of God. So if anyone says "their doctrine," I would ask them, "how is it your doctrine when we are to live by the Word of God?"

God expects christians to live by the Word and in obedience to Him. But this has nothing to do with WOF or nonWOF, this is simply living by the Word. It seems like this WOF and nonWOF has become a major division in the church. The truth is, if your not living by the WOrd, regardless of whether you are WOF or nonWOF, you are going to hinder your own blessings. I already provided scripture on that, which tells you if your not living the life, if your heart is not right with God, your not going to live a blessed life. But that is something that many don't want to hear although it is the truth.

ProjectPeter
Jan 9th 2007, 06:18 PM
I agree with that. When it comes to giving, give as the Lord leads you. Not what how man tells you to give. Use common sense and pay that bill off. Be a good steward with money and keep yourself out of debt. But not all WOF teachers would say to do that. In a world where there is a love for money, you will always find people who will do such stuff. Just like in the corpoate world, there are crook always looking for ways to manipulate people and cheat people, we live in a crooked world. That is why we need to use wisdom. When it comes to christianity, we need to know what the Word says and go by what the Word says. At the church I go to, they would never try and pressue you into giving. You give as the Lord leads you to give. They are not out for people's money, they are out to do the will of the Lord. The list is long of those who have said this and things saying the same thing. Hence the reason I used the example and this is from the leadership of the Word of Faith movement examples: Creflo Dollar, Copeland, Hagin (both Jr and Sr when he was alive) etc.


I have never heard anyone say that but we are not to go by the doctrine of man, but that of the Word of God. So if anyone says "their doctrine," I would ask them, "how is it your doctrine when we are to live by the Word of God?" I used it as an example because you mentioned Benny Hinn earlier and he said this so many times that it actually drew national media attention. Others have said it as well including the folks listed above. And they sure enough have said it and said it often enough to let one know that is what they believe. It isn't a hard thing to research out either and you can likely even find the direct comments of these men on this matter since most everything today is recorded and put on the web somewhere.



God expects christians to live by the Word and in obedience to Him. But this has nothing to do with WOF or nonWOF, this is simply living by the Word. It seems like this WOF and nonWOF has become a major division in the church. The truth is, if your not living by the WOrd, regardless of whether you are WOF or nonWOF, you are going to hinder your own blessings. I already provided scripture on that, which tells you if your not living the life, if your heart is not right with God, your not going to live a blessed life. But that is something that many don't want to hear although it is the truth.No one I don't think is arguing that one needs to live a life of obedience Jman. Nor is anyone arguing that one must have faith. But once again... the WOF doctrine doesn't draw that distinct a line. It goes way beyond that point and I would be hard pressed to believe that one can't understand the difference between having faith and being obedience to the various teachings such as seed offerings, reaping and sowing, 100, 1000, infinity fold receiving etc. etc. Those type teachings go well beyond simply being obedient and having faith and those type messages ARE the core of the Word of Faith doctrine.

miepie
Jan 9th 2007, 06:28 PM
Benny Hinn is actually coming to the Netherlands with his healing service...... Besides that I am not going to survive such a trip in one piece, I don't believe that God needs Benny Hinn to heal me..... if it is in His Will that I will be healed, He will do it without all the show and reach out to me in my Home..... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 9th 2007, 06:48 PM
Benny Hinn is actually coming to the Netherlands with his healing service...... Besides that I am not going to survive such a trip in one piece, I don't believe that God needs Benny Hinn to heal me..... if it is in His Will that I will be healed, He will do it without all the show and reach out to me in my Home..... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

Miepie, where is he coming exactly and when (waar en wanneer)?

miepie
Jan 9th 2007, 07:12 PM
He comes to the Netherlands on August 31 and September 1 in Ahoy in Rotterdam for 3 healings....... :hmm:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

VerticalReality
Jan 9th 2007, 07:48 PM
Benny Hinn is actually coming to the Netherlands with his healing service...... Besides that I am not going to survive such a trip in one piece, I don't believe that God needs Benny Hinn to heal me..... if it is in His Will that I will be healed, He will do it without all the show and reach out to me in my Home..... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

Just curious, miepie . . . but do you believe that the Holy Spirit gives the gift of healing through those of His church?

miepie
Jan 9th 2007, 08:27 PM
I believe that I can be healed just as easily by laying hands on me by the minister of my church or by Charles, who is an elder of the church in America. In all those cases it did not happen.... so I have no hope that it will happen by Benny Hinn, who is representing something that I don't believe in. Even if he would offer to do it in my house, far away from the town he is going to have his healings, I would refuse it. I have had offers for healers that are Dutch, but have turned that down too, first of all because of the journey and secondly because I believe that God can use anyone who believes in Him. If people do get healed in those services it is because it was in Gods Plan to heal them at that particular time. In my plan it's not time for healing yet..... maybe it won't be time for that before I go Home..... it's not up to me to decide that and I have made my peace with God about it.

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

VerticalReality
Jan 9th 2007, 08:52 PM
I believe that I can be healed just as easily by laying hands on me by the minister of my church or by Charles, who is an elder of the church in America. In all those cases it did not happen.... so I have no hope that it will happen by Benny Hinn, who is representing something that I don't believe in. Even if he would offer to do it in my house, far away from the town he is going to have his healings, I would refuse it. I have had offers for healers that are Dutch, but have turned that down too, first of all because of the journey and secondly because I believe that God can use anyone who believes in Him. If people do get healed in those services it is because it was in Gods Plan to heal them at that particular time. In my plan it's not time for healing yet..... maybe it won't be time for that before I go Home..... it's not up to me to decide that and I have made my peace with God about it.

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

I don't know much of anything about Benny Hinn, so I can't really comment there. I don't know him, and I don't watch his television show. I was just wondering if you believe that the Holy Spirit gives some in the body of Christ the gift of healing as is stated in 1 Corinthians 12:9. I'm just curious as to what you believe on this topic. Some believe the gifts aren't available. Some believe they are. Some believe you can operate in them all. Some believe you can only operate in one. Then there are others who believe you can have more than one but not them all. There's a wide variety of beliefs out there, and I was just curious what it is you believe concerning the gifts of the Spirit and the gift of healing in particular.

watchinginawe
Jan 9th 2007, 09:53 PM
I was just wondering if you believe that the Holy Spirit gives some in the body of Christ the gift of healing as is stated in 1 Corinthians 12:9. I'm just curious as to what you believe on this topic.:hmm: vr, if healing is provided for each and every one of us at the cross like salvation is, then why would we need the gift of healing in the body of Christ? If we say for those that have not the faith to be healed, can we not then expect that some might have the gift of salvation, for those who do not have faith to be saved? Something to think about.

I was listening to Brother Creflo (I respect him, even though I believe he is in error) this morning and heard him list off the things we have authority and thus victory over. Serpents, scorpions, the enemy in any form, health, prosperity, whatever, and then last on the list was death. Now, that got me to thinking. He preached good on how the grave doesn't have that sting any more, and how death doesn't have that victory any more. And he is right! However, the victory over death for me most likely will occur by going through the grave and physical death in this body. The victory is already given, the death is still ahead of me. We approach death in faith that the power of that physical death is conquered.

So it occurred to me that this is pretty much how I view the other areas of authority that Jesus has given us. I can rest assured that Jesus has already been victorious but I might have to go through those things to be victorious. The circumstances, be it health, persecution, wealth, etc. have no sting anymore, the victory is assured. I thought of miekie and how Jesus has given her a victory over her situation that is just as real as if she were to get up and carry her bed. To face the battles that we are given victory over requires a strong faith in my opinion.

God Bless!

HisGrace
Jan 9th 2007, 10:24 PM
However, the victory over death for me most likely will occur by going through the grave and physical death in this body. The victory is already given, the death is still ahead of me. We approach death in faith that the power of that physical death is conquered. Victory over death means we have conquered the power of death - eternal damnation. Adam's fallen world introduced death, but Jesus defeated its penalty at the cross.

Many have the gift of healing -

1 Cor. 12:7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge. 9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing.

10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.

VerticalReality
Jan 9th 2007, 11:16 PM
:hmm: vr, if healing is provided for each and every one of us at the cross like salvation is, then why would we need the gift of healing in the body of Christ? If we say for those that have not the faith to be healed, can we not then expect that some might have the gift of salvation, for those who do not have faith to be saved? Something to think about.
God Bless!

Healing is provided for us at the cross. Why? Because Jesus Christ defeated sin, sickness and disease. However, not everything that needs healing is from sin, sickness and disease. Say little Jimmy, for example, goes and breaks his arm. Well, that broken arm isn't necessarily an attack from the enemy. It's an injury that simply occurred because we live in wordly bodies that can be injured. An injury doesn't necessarily relate to sin, sickness or disease. Jesus Christ gave us victory over the opression of the enemy. Therefore, anything of the enemy we have victory over if we walk in faith. The gift of healing is also not only for the body of Christ. This gift can be used outside the body of Christ as the Spirit wills.

I believe sickness and disease is of the enemy, and I believe we have been given victory over it.

watchinginawe
Jan 9th 2007, 11:54 PM
Healing is provided for us at the cross. Why? Because Jesus Christ defeated sin, sickness and disease. However, not everything that needs healing is from sin, sickness and disease. Say little Jimmy, for example, goes and breaks his arm. Well, that broken arm isn't necessarily an attack from the enemy. It's an injury that simply occurred because we live in wordly bodies that can be injured. An injury doesn't necessarily relate to sin, sickness or disease. Jesus Christ gave us victory over the opression of the enemy. Therefore, anything of the enemy we have victory over if we walk in faith. The gift of healing is also not only for the body of Christ. This gift can be used outside the body of Christ as the Spirit wills.

I believe sickness and disease is of the enemy, and I believe we have been given victory over it.Where is death from? Have we been given victory over it? Will we die a physical death (if the Lord tarries) even though we have victory over it?

I believe in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit and have seen them manifested. We also read in scripture about the operation of the gift of healing being used to heal sickness and disease (and even in the case of accidents also). So the gift of healing isn't given just for instances of sickness or diseases that aren't of the enemy (accidents and such).

God Bless!

VerticalReality
Jan 10th 2007, 12:13 AM
Where is death from? Have we been given victory over it? Will we die a physical death (if the Lord tarries) even though we have victory over it?

We have victory over death, yes. Will this flesh die . . . yes. It should be of natural causes, however. It is possible to simply get old and die. There is nothing that says you have to die of cancer, pneumonia, or the flu.


I believe in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit and have seen them manifested.

As have I.


We also read in scripture about the operation of the gift of healing being used to heal sickness and disease (and even in the case of accidents also). So the gift of healing isn't given just for instances of sickness or diseases that aren't of the enemy (accidents and such).

I disagree. I believe the healing of sickness and disease for those in the body of Christ is more along the lines illustrated in James 5:14-16. The gift of healing is not what is in operation in James 5:14-16. I believe it is simply the prayer of faith that is saving a person from bondage, and the Lord is raising them up through what He did on the cross. That is why you have the instruction to call for the elders of the church. Going by your view here, you're saying that every elder should have the gift of healing in operation because it is instructing the sick to call them. No . . . what is going on here is that the elders are viewed as those who are more advanced in the faith than the rest of the church. It is the faith in what the Lord has provided that is saving this person from their sickness.

Another thing is this . . . if healing of sickness and disease has not been won at the cross, and it's not God's will to heal all those who are sick, why would the Holy Spirit inspire James to instruct all who are sick to have the elders anoint them with oil and pray the prayer of faith? Is the Holy Spirit instructing them to simply roll the dice and pray for the sick just in case it is God's will for them to be healed? I highly doubt that. We are instructed to do that because those who are sick are caught up in bondage that they aren't supposed to be caught up in.

watchinginawe
Jan 10th 2007, 12:42 AM
I am wondering if you are just answering contrary as a conditioned response. :lol: Look at this:
We also read in scripture about the operation of the gift of healing being used to heal sickness and disease (and even in the case of accidents also). So the gift of healing isn't given just for instances of sickness or diseases that aren't of the enemy (accidents and such). And you respond "I disagree. "?

So, you are saying that the gift of healing is only for instances of accidents? That there is no scripture to indicate that the gift of healing was used to cure sickness and diseases?

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Jan 10th 2007, 12:45 AM
Were there any believers in scripture who got sick?

A passage where a Christian gets sick. No mention of a lack of faith:

Acts 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.

38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.

39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.

40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

43 And it came to pass, that he tarried many days in Joppa with one Simon a tanner.

God Bless!

VerticalReality
Jan 10th 2007, 01:02 AM
I am wondering if you are just answering contrary as a conditioned response. :lol: Look at this:And you respond "I disagree. "?

So, you are saying that the gift of healing is only for instances of accidents? That there is no scripture to indicate that the gift of healing was used to cure sickness and diseases?

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

God Bless!

I already covered this sort of thing in my previous responses.

VerticalReality
Jan 10th 2007, 01:04 AM
Were there any believers in scripture who got sick?

A passage where a Christian gets sick. No mention of a lack of faith:

Acts 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.

38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.

39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.

40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

43 And it came to pass, that he tarried many days in Joppa with one Simon a tanner.

God Bless!

I don't think raising folks from the dead is what James was referring to in chapter 5 verses 14-16. If it's the Lord's will that someone be raised from the dead, He will let us know.

the J Man
Jan 10th 2007, 05:51 AM
Benny Hinn is actually coming to the Netherlands with his healing service...... Besides that I am not going to survive such a trip in one piece, I don't believe that God needs Benny Hinn to heal me..... if it is in His Will that I will be healed, He will do it without all the show and reach out to me in my Home..... :pray:

Love you,
Mieke :kiss:

You absoltely right! God doesn't need anyone to do anything for Him. He is God all by Himself. But it sure wouldn't hurt to go to a crusade. My wife and a friend went awhile back when he was in Detroit and they say it was awesome. The Spirit of the Lord really moved in that place. Many got saved, they gave their lives to the Lord. Many were healed incuding that friend. She wa shealed of nasal infection. Benny wasn't even around her. The Spirit of the Lord just healed her instantly.

the J Man
Jan 10th 2007, 06:07 AM
Were there any believers in scripture who got sick?

Luke13:11-13, you read about Jesus casting out a spirit of infirmity. and laying hands on her which healed her. In vs10, it mentions that Jesus was teaching in a synogogue. In vs16, it mentions that she was a daughter of Abraham whom Satan had bound. You can see that she was a believer in the Lord, but she neede deliverance from that demon spirit that caused her to be bent over during the last 18 years. The demon did that damage to her back that made her unable to stand up straight.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2007, 03:29 PM
Let me ask... what do you guys think it means that we have victory over death?

VerticalReality
Jan 10th 2007, 04:11 PM
Let me ask... what do you guys think it means that we have victory over death?

Paul sums it up quite nicely in Romans 5 and 6.

ProjectPeter
Jan 10th 2007, 04:17 PM
Okay... and you figure Paul is saying what... can you sum it up quite nicely what you think he is saying?

VerticalReality
Jan 10th 2007, 04:23 PM
Okay... and you figure Paul is saying what... can you sum it up quite nicely what you think he is saying?

Death in sin . . . life in Christ.

Hevinly1
Jan 10th 2007, 04:39 PM
Let me ask... what do you guys think it means that we have victory over death?

That death will not hold us that we will be with our Lord God after our mortal lives. Physical death comes to all but we can avoid and triumph over spiritual death. I know that God can do what ever He wills that we can be healed or transfigured or pretty much anything, but I believe His main concern is the state of our souls and our Spirit.

We have an eternity to be with God and to live in Him. This physical state will be like a blink of an eye.

HisGrace
Jan 10th 2007, 04:44 PM
Let me ask... what do you guys think it means that we have victory over death?

Simply, death/the grave = hell/sin. Through Jesus and the cross we have conquered the grave and death.

watchinginawe
Jan 11th 2007, 04:25 AM
Let me ask... what do you guys think it means that we have victory over death?The resurrection.

I Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
...
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

God Bless!

Solar Sailer
Jul 3rd 2007, 03:06 PM
What does the whole "name it, claim it" expression mean when we are talking about the bible and religion? Scripture would really help. Thanks.

Greetings JesusMan23,

By no means is it a new concept. It means you can buy Jesus any way you want Him. By the slice or by the pound. It is a most abhorrent concept that only benefits the bank accounts of those in the pulpit making promises and claims they can never come through with.

SS

HisGrace
Jul 4th 2007, 01:47 AM
Every time a phrase is coined by the WOF'ers, I have noticed that many immediately think that it is some voodoo incantation to get anything and everything one wishes, and the whole concept is blown away out of proportion. To me, to name and claim it would merely mean that we believe the promises in the Bible and claim them for ourselves.

I searched a couple of their sites and tried to find something spoken by such evangelists about naming and claiming, but all I could find was the definition of confession, which is another term they use to receive answer to prayers.

"Definition: To confess: (homologeo, Greek), "to speak the same thing; to assent, accord, agree with, declare and admit."

Additional comments: To confess something means to speak or admit the same things as God based on His written and spoken Word.

From listening to their messages, that all it really is folks. Claiming the scriptures through the will of God and with the proper motives. I think most of us would agree that everything in the Bible is a promise for our own personal growth.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep his promise.

Solar Sailer
Jul 4th 2007, 03:23 AM
Every time a phrase is coined by the WOF'ers, I have noticed that many immediately think that it is some voodoo incantation to get anything and everything one wishes,

Greetings HG,

Indeed, that has been the entire concept in a nutshell for the better part of the entire past century and, most definitely, for the past fifty years. And without doubt it has always made the poor people poorer and those in the pulpits ever filthy richer.

SS

minnesotaice
Jul 4th 2007, 11:53 AM
[quote=HisGrace;1310907]Every time a phrase is coined by the WOF'ers, I have noticed that many immediately think that it is some voodoo incantation to get anything and everything one wishes, and the whole concept is blown away out of proportion. To me, to name and claim it would merely mean that we believe the promises in the Bible and claim them for ourselves.

Their favorite verse is "Beloved I wish that you would prosper in all things" and they automatically think it is to make one rich, even though Jesus said the "Love of money is the root of all evil" and "It is impossible for a rich man to be saved". They claims the verses they want to fit their lifestyle and ignore others.

From listening to their messages, that all it really is folks. Claiming the scriptures through the will of God and with the proper motives. I think most of us would agree that everything in the Bible is a promise for our own personal growth.

When I read the Word, I see that God's greatest goal for us humans is to depend on him for everything and to walk in obedience to him. To have no other Gods before him.

I used to attend a WOF church before I knew it was that. So many people believed that if you gave to that church (in their words, gave to God), you would receive a huge blessing (possibly a check in the mail). Sounds funny until you hear story after story of how people gave so much to the church out of faith that they had to file bankruptcy. I am not blaming it entirely on the leadership of the church because it is the person's decision, but if you were vunerable and in debt, you might fall into it (especially if the Word appears to back this up).

I am actually surprised that there are so many people who still attend these churches because so many I know have caught on and have left. I think that they continue to draw in people who have gotten themselves into debt because of their spending and they want a quick solution.
I am NOT saying that everyone who attends a church like that is in debt but many I knew were.

HisGrace
Jul 4th 2007, 08:14 PM
Their favorite verse is "Beloved I wish that you would prosper in all things" and they automatically think it is to make one rich, even though Jesus said the "Love of money is the root of all evil" and "It is impossible for a rich man to be saved". They claims the verses they want to fit their lifestyle and ignore others.
Deuteronomy 28:8
The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.

Psalm 144:13 May our barns be filledwith crops of every kind. May the flocks in our fields multiply by the thousands,even tens of thousands,

Prov. 3:10 Then he will fill your barns with grain, and your vats will overflow with good wine.

Job 42: 10 When Job prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes. In fact, the Lord gave him twice as much as before! 11 Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the Lord had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money[a] and a gold ring.

12 So the Lord blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 teams of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. 15 In all the land no women were as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers.

16 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. 17 Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life.


Why on earth would God allow anyone to prosper with tens of thousands of flock? It shows the bounty that he wants to pour on his children. "pressed down and running over" Also, he knows that such gifts will be received with a purified heart and the proper motives. Job didn't double his blessings until he was totally purged. He had been sanctified from the 'love of money'

Notice that the scripture says the 'rich man' , not the 'prosperous man.' The rich man probably has earthly gain through selfishness and possessive of his bounty. God makes us prosperous. It is mentioned close to 100 times in the Bible.

We can't deny the definition of prosper - 1.to gain in wealth;2. succeed financially: to be successful, especially in financial or economic terms

minnesotaice
Jul 4th 2007, 09:35 PM
Deuteronomy 28:8
The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.

Psalm 144:13 May our barns be filledwith crops of every kind. May the flocks in our fields multiply by the thousands,even tens of thousands,

Prov. 3:10 Then he will fill your barns with grain, and your vats will overflow with good wine.

Job 42: 10 When Job prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes. In fact, the Lord gave him twice as much as before! 11 Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the Lord had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money[a] and a gold ring.

12 So the Lord blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 teams of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. 15 In all the land no women were as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers.

16 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. 17 Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life.


Why on earth would God allow anyone to prosper with tens of thousands of flock? It shows the bounty that he wants to pour on his children. "pressed down and running over" Also, he knows that such gifts will be received with a purified heart and the proper motives. Job didn't double his blessings until he was totally purged. He had been sanctified from the 'love of money'

Notice that the scripture says the 'rich man' , not the 'prosperous man.' The rich man probably has earthly gain through selfishness and possessive of his bounty. God makes us prosperous. It is mentioned close to 100 times in the Bible.

We can't deny the definition of prosper - 1.to gain in wealth;2. succeed financially: to be successful, especially in financial or economic terms


One last question. BTW, I have heard all of the verses before. These were specific situations and for whatever purpose, at the time, they were blessed with financial blessings. Paul said he learned to be content with little or plenty which means he had little at times. God promised to provide all of our NEEDS, not our wants. In America, most of our money is spent on wants.

Ok, one question for HisGrace. So, all of the Christians in Sri Lanka, Sudan, India, China, Nigeria, Iraq, Iran, N. Korea etc..... they must not really be Christians or have much faith because when asked if they are believers in Jesus Christ, they say "Yes" and many are killed, their homes are taken, they are beaten, thrown in prison, and many are refugees. This is happening all over the world right now. With your arguement, either these people are not believers, they are holding sin in their lives or they don't have the right faith. These people are financially poor. If you ask me, they have more faith than myself and more than most in America. They believe that Jesus is enough. They are willing to lay everything down for him. Gee, who does that sound like,, hmmmm Jesus??? The disciples when going out in their ministries don't seem rich to me.

You have not answered my question earlier about the verses which speak against having much money in a previous post. Remember the ones who had much money such as David and Solomon used that money and power to sin greatly against God. Solomon said "It is Vanity and chasing after the Wind". After Job LOST everything, he said that he had finally seen God. God said "You must have no other Gods before me". You can't pick out some of the bible that you like--you have to consider the whole word.

I apologize that I sound so harsh about this topic, but I have witnessed many people's faith and spiritual lives get ruined by this teaching. I just wonder what American Christians would do if our country entered a financial collapse. Where would our faith be??

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 12:03 AM
God promised to provide all of our NEEDS, not our wants. In America, most of our money is spent on wants. Of course, we come back to the right heart and motives.


Ok, one question for HisGrace. So, all of the Christians in Sri Lanka, Sudan, India, China, Nigeria, Iraq, Iran, N. Korea etc..... they must not really be Christians or have much faith because when asked if they are believers in Jesus Christ, they say "Yes" and many are killed, their homes are taken, they are beaten, thrown in prison, and many are refugees. Sadly, since we live in a fallen world, we sometimes are placed in situations where we are not in a position to prosper, for example if the devil has taken over a country. We should be thankful in North America that the devil hasn't taken over completely - yet. We should be careful or it could happen..

The following is an example where a society banded together where no one was needy. If every Christian, was 100% in the centre of God's will, in receiving and giving, none should go needy,.

Acts 4:32 All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so they shared everything they had. 33 The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all.

34 There were no needy people among them, because those who owned land or houses would sell them 35 and bring the money to the apostles to give to those in need. 36 For instance, there was Joseph, the one the apostles nicknamed Barnabas (which means “Son of Encouragement”). He was from the tribe of Levi and came from the island of Cyprus. 37 He sold a field he owned and brought the money to the apostles.

BTW the disciples couldn't have been too poor if they had a treasurer by the name of Judas. Judas dipped into the funds, so there must have been money left over if he could take out a portion. Jesus had them get a coin from a fish to pay his taxes. He had money at his fingertips if he so desired.


You have not answered my question earlier about the verses which speak against having much money in a previous post. Remember the ones who had much money such as David and Solomon used that money and power to sin greatly against God. Solomon said "It is Vanity and chasing after the Wind". I don't think David and Solomon 'named it and claimed it.'.


After Job LOST everything, he said that he had finally seen God. God said "You must have no other Gods before me". You can't pick out some of the bible that you like--you have to consider the whole word. We have to use examples to clarify our position. Exactly my point about Job. He was totally purged of all pride, so he prospered twice as much as before.

Speaking personally, I am a generous giver to charities and my church, and I don't want for anything. I don't believe it is the Lods will for us to be in debt, unless it is for a roof over our head or a car or perhaps an applicance that is a necessity. Even then we shouldn't feel as if we are in over our heads. To me that is very wrong.

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2007, 12:11 AM
Deuteronomy 28:8
The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.

Psalm 144:13 May our barns be filledwith crops of every kind. May the flocks in our fields multiply by the thousands,even tens of thousands,

Prov. 3:10 Then he will fill your barns with grain, and your vats will overflow with good wine.

Job 42: 10 When Job prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes. In fact, the Lord gave him twice as much as before! 11 Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the Lord had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money[a] and a gold ring.

12 So the Lord blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 teams of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. 15 In all the land no women were as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers.

16 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. 17 Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life.


Why on earth would God allow anyone to prosper with tens of thousands of flock? It shows the bounty that he wants to pour on his children. "pressed down and running over" Also, he knows that such gifts will be received with a purified heart and the proper motives. Job didn't double his blessings until he was totally purged. He had been sanctified from the 'love of money'

Notice that the scripture says the 'rich man' , not the 'prosperous man.' The rich man probably has earthly gain through selfishness and possessive of his bounty. God makes us prosperous. It is mentioned close to 100 times in the Bible.

We can't deny the definition of prosper - 1.to gain in wealth;2. succeed financially: to be successful, especially in financial or economic terms
Actually the best way to define prosperity as used in Greek and in those days... I pray that in all things you fare well. While certainly that could apply to business transactions etc... that isn't at all the context of that passage.

This letter was not written to a church but to one individual. We have John's letter to the church body as a whole and nothing such as that was mentioned. But in this case... Gaius was a man that took care of the preachers that traveled through the area he lived. The church, under direction of the pastor, wasn't doing this and if members in fact did give to those traveling preachers... they were put out of the fellowship. This one man that John wrote didn't do such as this. John praised him and encouraged him to continue doing so. He also told him that they would deal with the pastor of that church as well.

So context... that makes a big difference here.

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 12:33 AM
This letter was not written to a church but to one individual. We have John's letter to the church body as a whole and nothing such as that was mentioned. But in this case... Gaius was a man that took care of the preachers that traveled through the area he lived. The church, under direction of the pastor, wasn't doing this and if members in fact did give to those traveling preachers... they were put out of the fellowship. This one man that John wrote didn't do such as this. John praised him and encouraged him to continue doing so. He also told him that they would deal with the pastor of that church as well.
So context... that makes a big difference here.What scripture are you talking about?

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2007, 01:02 AM
3 John... what was originally being spoken of when the other passages were offered.

minnesotaice
Jul 5th 2007, 01:03 AM
Of course, we come back to the right heart and motives.

Sadly, since we live in a fallen world, we sometimes are placed in situations where we are not in a position to prosper, for example if the devil has taken over a country. We should be thankful in North America that the devil hasn't taken over completely - yet. We should be careful or it could happen..

The following is an example where a society banded together where no one was needy. If every Christian, was 100% in the centre of God's will, in receiving and giving, none should go needy,.

Acts 4:32 All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so they shared everything they had. 33 The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all.

34 There were no needy people among them, because those who owned land or houses would sell them 35 and bring the money to the apostles to give to those in need. 36 For instance, there was Joseph, the one the apostles nicknamed Barnabas (which means “Son of Encouragement”). He was from the tribe of Levi and came from the island of Cyprus. 37 He sold a field he owned and brought the money to the apostles.

BTW the disciples couldn't have been too poor if they had a treasurer by the name of Judas. Judas dipped into the funds, so there must have been money left over if he could take out a portion. Jesus had them get a coin from a fish to pay his taxes. He had money at his fingertips if he so desired.

I don't think David and Solomon 'named it and claimed it.'.

We have to use examples to clarify our position. Exactly my point about Job. He was totally purged of all pride, so he prospered twice as much as before.

Speaking personally, I am a generous giver to charities and my church, and I don't want for anything. I don't believe it is the Lods will for us to be in debt, unless it is for a roof over our head or a car or perhaps an applicance that is a necessity. Even then we shouldn't feel as if we are in over our heads. To me that is very wrong.

In your previous posts, you talk about God wanting us to be successful and rich. I have not ever said we should be in debt but some of that is from choices we make about how to spend money. People can give and give and then spend money like crazy and they will still be in debt. God gave us common sense.

You talk about neediness in the book of Acts. Yes, they all helped each other but in no verse does it say that any of them were rich. I am really sorry that you are not getting my point but oh well.

minnesotaice
Jul 5th 2007, 01:07 AM
[quote=HisGrace;1312030]Of course, we come back to the right heart and motives.

Sadly, since we live in a fallen world, we sometimes are placed in situations where we are not in a position to prosper, for example if the devil has taken over a country. We should be thankful in North America that the devil hasn't taken over completely - yet. We should be careful or it could happen..

BTW, I think those people are blessed because they are not so tied to money and materialism. Jesus is all they need. Even if going by your argument that "THE DEVIL HAS TAKEN OVER" Is God not sovereign enough that he could choose to bless them by your arguement. So God is not in complete control---it is the devil and us. Wow. Did you think that maybe just maybe God has a DIFFERENT plan for those countries and that maybe God (gasp) is choosing not to prosper them materially right now.

minnesotaice
Jul 5th 2007, 01:33 AM
Hisgrace:

That part about the devil not completely invading N. America. Are you kidding me??? So you think it is based on how much money a country has or doesn't have on whether or not the devil has taken over.

Have you looked around to see what is going on in this continent? You are kidding right?

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 02:11 AM
Hisgrace:That part about the devil not completely invading N. America. Are you kidding me??? So you think it is based on how much money a country has or doesn't have on whether or not the devil has taken over.
Have you looked around to see what is going on in this continent? You are kidding right?
The devil is doing his best to take over, but I think you are taking your great country too much for granted. I so often hear Americans say that they live in the best country in the world. Living in Canada, I of course believe I live in the best country in the world.;)

Would you like to live in Russia, Communist China, or Africa? When I go to the grocery store I don't see empty shelves; I see the store brimming with everything and anything I want. As nightime falls, I am confident whenever I turn on a lightswitch, there will be light filling the room. In the winter I am sure I will get adequate heat. Furthermore, I don't have to live in a mud hut with 12 other people, or walk 5 miles every day to fetch water.

When tourists go to Cuba, the hotel staff is grateful for a few pencils for cleaning up your room.

I certainly don't take my freedom for granted. I often thank the good Lord above that I live in this great bountiful country.

Solar Sailer
Jul 5th 2007, 03:12 AM
Greetings Project Peter,


Let me ask... what do you guys think it means that we have victory over death?

Can't speak to others but, based upon your question proper, it is assumed this requests a personal opinion and not scripture passages or verses.

Victory over death in that one in Christ will live "for ever and ever" (not "for ever"). Since by the deeds of the flesh no man is justified and since the flesh is inherently sin ridden this body can in no way ever come into the presence of The Father then only the spirit that is ours and born within us upon accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour is all that can come into the presence olf and dwell in and with the Father. This spirit is not the same as the breath of life that gives all of the natural order of creation life while it exists on this earth nor is it the same as the Holy Spirit that lives within and dwells within those of us that are in Christ. These spirits, upon physical death, are referred to as "sleeping" (dead) and awake (resurrect) when their Master, the Lord Jesus Christ, calls and, upon hearing their Shepherd, come to Him when He calls at the end of days.

SS

Solar Sailer
Jul 5th 2007, 03:18 AM
Greetings HG,


The devil is doing his best to take over,

This entire planet lock, stock and barrel belongs to Satan. When he rebelled the entire physical creation was damaged and must, in the end, be destroyed to make way for the new. When Adam and Eve fell the entire natural order of creation was damaged and must, in the end, be destroyed to make way for the new.

SS

Whispering Grace
Jul 5th 2007, 03:38 AM
If you all have a minute, I would highly recommend watching this video. It isn't long.

http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2007/07/repost-americas-exported-gospel.html

disiple56
Jul 5th 2007, 03:45 AM
Some folk believe that God is rather like a Genie in a bottle - that whatever they choose to 'name and claim' God will ensure they get.

I, on the other hand, believe He is my Sovereign Lord, and though I may ask Him for something (eg a parking place on a busy street) my request is always 'providing it is His Will'.


I haven't read through the whole post yet, so forgive me if this has already been addressed. But one easy way to spot the "name it and claim it" televangelist; If they say that "planting a seed of faith" involves sending them money, in expectation that God will make you wealthy, they are teaching a false doctrine.

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 03:55 AM
If you all have a minute, I would highly recommend watching this video. It isn't long.If I 'named and claimed' a BMW, I would never get it because my motives would be all wrong, so I would never give anyone else that false hope. There's a right way and a wrong way to do everything.

Solar Sailer
Jul 5th 2007, 04:00 AM
Does God sit behind a cash register managing a 7-11 quick store?

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 04:10 AM
Some of you guys should be writing for The National Enquirer. Your whole concept is being exaggerated beyond all proportions.

If I want a favour from God I keep it strictly biblically focused. It has to be done with prayful common sense. I don't expect Him to operate a drive-thru.

Solar Sailer
Jul 5th 2007, 05:00 AM
Some of you guys should be writing for The National Enquirer. Your whole concept is being exaggerated beyond all proportions.

If I want a favour from God I keep it strictly biblically focused. It has to be done with prayful common sense. I don't expect Him to operate a drive-thru.

Greetings HG,

I'm sure most here agree with you; sadly, there are millions that have been fleeced by megachurch tv evangelists who see operating a church primarily as a business (with degreed business managers directing the business) and, secondarilly, as a ministry.

How many times, upon being notified that some little old lady gave all of her savings to cure a debilitating ailment that was not forthcoming, did which name it and claim it ministry immediately and without hassle returned all the money or did they just arrogantly laugh along with their business manager as they read the letter all the while pouring another drink on the pool-side view deck of their collection plate paid for high priced condo retreat?

And, no, these are NOT blown out of proportion examples! ALL IRS registered 501-C NP charters must make available immediately upon request all financial accountability to anyone that walks in and requests it. ALL good churches have these already printed up and up to date and if not already on the wall with all their tracts have them readily available generally in the secretary's office. Con's will blow you off everytime with any number of sucker come on get off it excuses.

SS

minnesotaice
Jul 5th 2007, 10:30 AM
Some of you guys should be writing for The National Enquirer. Your whole concept is being exaggerated beyond all proportions.

If I want a favour from God I keep it strictly biblically focused. It has to be done with prayful common sense. I don't expect Him to operate a drive-thru.


Ok but you should always pray according to his will. Remember we do not receive anything by our motives because our righteousness is as filthy rags. We don't even know how sinful our motives are. You can ask for something but God may have a different plan and we need to be accepting of it as he is sovereign.

In a nutshell, this is what the WOF movement misses. They think they can get God to do things by using verses to control him. They say "God you promised to bless me in your word and I want (fill in the blank)" What if this thing is not God's plan??? I know many Christian couples who are in love and have a stable life who have asked for children year after year with good motives (wanting to care for a child) and they have not been granted one. I have heard people in WOF movement say either they don't have enough faith, they are hiding sin in their life or they are not claiming the right verses. HOW DO THEY KNOW WHAT GOD IS DOING??

Remember our Jesus dropped sweat of blood because he asked that this cup be removed from him. It was God's will that he go through it. Thank God he chose his father's will and not what he wanted.

justsurfing
Jul 5th 2007, 11:18 AM
We've been sleuthing about the sinful nature - the carnal man - the sin we battle in our bodies... and it's "personality" elsewhere.

We're honing in on "narcissistic self-love".

A narcissist would see the world, and God, as revolving around himself/herself.

A narcissist would believe that God had given him/her the right, the power, and the authority to "name and claim" all the narcissust desired.

The desires of a narcissist are the lusts of the flesh - the desires of self in self-love (which is so self-centered in nature - actually, it's hatred for God and others, in one way of looking at it.)

"Naming and claiming it", imo, "authorizes" the lusts of the flesh.. and names and claims God so willed in the Bible.

"Narcissistic self-love" exceeds the boundaries of God's Word in desires and lusts of the flesh and pride in life and is self-centered.

I find it dangerous to interpret the Bible to legitimate lusts and desires of "narcissistic self-love"... rather than using the Bible to keep us sober in crucifying lusts and desires contrary to the Spirit of God.

Now, if the Bible says something in God's Love - and it is evil we are fighting to bring God's perfect will to pass in subjection to the authority of God's Word by the power of His Spirit - those are the true blessings and promises of God.

If a desire resulting in "naming and claiming it" is self-serving rather than God-serving and other-serving - it's suspect.

We must beware the deceptions of "narcissistic self-love"... our own egos... our own selves... and not falsely believe that becoming saved means that all our desires are God's mandates that we can have whatever we want.

We must examine our desires, and our paradigms, in the light of scripture that calls us to love God and others as ourselves.

Love in Christ,

js

justsurfing
Jul 5th 2007, 11:31 AM
P.S.

One of the first true, imo, sound principles of acquiring, building, protecting and preserving wealth by biblical principles is:


self-discipline


And the Bible states that we are not to set our hearts on wealth once God has provided it - and consume it in self and self-indulgence or to allow wealth to cause us to be come self-centered.

Love in Christ,

js

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2007, 02:14 PM
Moved this thread into this forum... welcome to the Money forum guys. ;)

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 07:03 PM
This is from the words of a famous televangelist. I am not going to tell you the name, because I know it will only open up the floodgates of negative reaction -


I discovered that God's prosperity isn't just financial blessings. It also includes healing, protection, favor, wisdom, success, well-being and every good thing you could possibly need—all the good things Jesus paid for you to have.
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak" (2 Corinthians 4:13).

Faith must be in two places—in your heart and in your mouth. "The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach" (Romans 10:8). Believing in your heart and saying with your mouth produce the operation of faith.

"For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith" (Mark 11:23).

We realized all that stood between us and walking in the dream God had for us was knowing what is in the Book and doing it. "This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success" (Joshua 1:8).

That's why He inspired the Apostle John to write, "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth" (3 John 1:2).

Notice there, however, that John said "I want YOU TO PROSPER as your soul prospers." He tied financial prosperity to the prosperity of our mind, will and emotions.
We can't deny the definition of prosper - 1.to gain in wealth;2. succeed financially: to be successful, especially in financial or economic terms
Part of prosperity means to PROSPER materially, as we see from the many examples in the Bible.

Brother Mark
Jul 5th 2007, 07:27 PM
I don't typically enjoy these kinds of discussions. But I will but in for a moment.

There are two ditches. On one side, a group says all should be healthy and wealthy. On the other side, "healing and prosperity are not part of the gospel".

God does have verses that speak to prosperity both in finances and health. But he also allowed many in scripture to go through times of disease, famine and poverty. To deny one or the other, seems to me, is to hold to an unbalanced view.

Blessings,

Mark

Prezken
Jul 5th 2007, 08:01 PM
I don't typically enjoy these kinds of discussions. But I will but in for a moment.

There are two ditches. On one side, a group says all should be healthy and wealthy. On the other side, "healing and prosperity are not part of the gospel".

God does have verses that speak to prosperity both in finances and health. But he also allowed many in scripture to go through times of disease, famine and poverty. To deny one or the other, seems to me, is to hold to an unbalanced view.

Blessings,

Mark

I agree here Mark. I do believe that there is a place we can get to in Christ where we could have perfect health and have all of our needs met with an abundance, but no one has ever achieved that place outside of Christ himself. The reasoning is because to achieve that place required complete submission to God and only Christ has ever done that.

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 08:21 PM
God does have verses that speak to prosperity both in finances and health. But he also allowed many in scripture to go through times of disease, famine and poverty. To deny one or the other, seems to me, is to hold to an unbalanced view.

Blessings,

Mark Very wise words Brother Mark. I believe a lot of it has to do at what level of maturity we have developed. I am just speaking for myself personally, but I think I have mastered the financial part, however the sickness area of my spiritual walk is growing and developing.

minnesotaice
Jul 5th 2007, 08:56 PM
Very wise words Brother Mark. I believe a lot of it has to do at what level of maturity we have developed. I am just speaking for myself personally, but I think I have mastered the financial part, however the sickness area of my spiritual walk is growing and developing.

Hisgrace I am really concerned about you. The fact that you think you have mastered a part of your life. Well, I guess you don't need God anymore for the financial part. You are on some very dangerous ground here. I just wonder what you will do when and if a financial collapse happens in our countries. You should read the 10 commandments and the beautides as well as sermons Jesus preached while on earth. Stop reading the same verses over and over that those preachers tell you.

Brother Mark
Jul 5th 2007, 08:59 PM
When Elisha died, he went out in the same glory as Elijah did. But he died of an illness.

Yet, we see God heal many people in the scriptures.

If I die of a sickness, does that mean I have fallen short in an area? Perhaps. But it could also mean that my time was up and it was time for me to go home, just as it was for Elisha.

Blessings,

Mark

HisGrace
Jul 5th 2007, 09:42 PM
. Well, I guess you don't need God anymore for the financial part.
That's not it at all. I know the Lord will supply my every need. I have suffered some lean years, when husband and I were separated and I had two small children to take care, but never once worried about where my next dollar would come from to pay the bills, or to eat. My husband helped me somewhat, and I worked a few hours part-time, and I never borrowed money from my parents or anyone else.

When I think back, I often wonder how I managed without pinching my pennies. I didn't know anything about the prosperity gospel back then. Money is just something that has never concerned me.

HisGrace
Jul 10th 2007, 07:58 PM
Let's set aside all of the pre-conceived notions, right or wrong, that you have gathered from 'name and claim' televangelists.

For me, naming and claiming means that, after seeking the Lord's face through much prayer and supplication, He gives me a word from the Bible, which really speaks to my heart and I know that He has given me an answer. This could be regarding any need; health, job-related or some financial bind, etc. God has promised to provide for our every need.

Come on fellow believers, I 'm sure you have had God speak to you through the scriptures. That is how our faith is developed. The scriptures speak to us and we can cling to them, knowing that God has given us his covenant promise.

DavidCJ
Oct 22nd 2007, 09:42 PM
I, personally, believe it depends on what you're naming and claiming. If it's something that is provided under God's grace through Jesus Christ, you can name and claim it in faith and you'll have it. What Jesus Christ provided through the cross is all a part of God's grace. We don't earn it. We simply accept it by faith.

Yes, I agree...there are some things that can be named and claimed you can feel it in your heart...but there are some things that people claim that would destroy them...God wants what is best for us so if you are naming things that will bring glory to God and blessings to your life expect to receive them.

The bible does say there is life and death in the tongue. :P

amazzin
Oct 23rd 2007, 02:45 AM
Yes, I agree...there are some things that can be named and claimed you can feel it in your heart...but there are some things that people claim that would destroy them...God wants what is best for us so if you are naming things that will bring glory to God and blessings to your life expect to receive them.

The bible does say there is life and death in the tongue. :P

I always "claim" I am right even when I "named" my first son

:P

Sold Out
Oct 23rd 2007, 05:32 PM
Very wise words Brother Mark. I believe a lot of it has to do at what level of maturity we have developed. I am just speaking for myself personally, but I think I have mastered the financial part, however the sickness area of my spiritual walk is growing and developing.

It does not have anything to do with a 'level of maturity' whether or not we get or don't get financial blessings. It rains on the just and the unjust.

I would think that Peter was a mature Christian...and he was crucified upside down.

I would think that Paul was a mature Christian.....and he was beheaded.

Christian maturity (or level of 'faith') is not a determing factor in the level of blessings we receive or don't receive. The bible tells us we will share in Christ's sufferings. This concept that Christians are entitled to blessings just because they are Christians produces a lot of disillusioned folks.

"For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." I Peter 2:19-21

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:17

"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake" Luke 6:22

jeffreys
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:16 PM
My main contention with the "Health & Wealth, Name It & Claim It" TV preachers is that, without fail, part of the prosperity process always involves YOU sending money to THEM.

Beyond that, I know for a fact that God is far more concerned about my spiritual life than about my bank account. I should be too.

turtledove
Oct 24th 2007, 08:52 PM
My main contention with the "Health & Wealth, Name It & Claim It" TV preachers is that, without fail, part of the prosperity process always involves YOU sending money to THEM.

Beyond that, I know for a fact that God is far more concerned about my spiritual life than about my bank account. I should be too.

:agree: Me, too (about being concerned about my bank account especially.

HisGrace
Oct 26th 2007, 11:08 PM
It does not have anything to do with a 'level of maturity' whether or not we get or don't get financial blessings. It rains on the just and the unjust. I meant by maturity, our level of faith. My level of faith may be stronger in one area than someone elses. I am far from being perfect, so I am sure someone's level of faith would be a lot stronger in areas that mine isn't. Our lack of faith can sometimes block God's blessings from flowing because we don't trust him enough.

I don't see why Christians have to apologize for being happy. Jesus tickles my ears through many scriptures in the Bible, and the whole Bible isn't filled with gloom and doom as many people seem to believe.

Matthew 7:7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 8:17 This fulfilled the word of the Lord through the prophet Isaiah, who said, “He took our sicknesses and removed our diseases.”

Matthew 10:30 And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock

Matthew 19: 26 Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.”

Matthew 21:21 Then Jesus told them, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and don’t doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, ‘May you be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and it will happen. 22 You can pray for anything, and if you have faith, you will receive it.

Matthew 26:52 “Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword. 53 Don’t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly?

Luke 17:6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.



My main contention with the "Health & Wealth, Name It & Claim It" TV preachers is that, without fail, part of the prosperity process always involves YOU sending money to THEM. This sounds like a rubber stamp of something you heard sometime-somewhere.:rolleyes:

jeffreys
Oct 28th 2007, 01:36 PM
This sounds like a rubber stamp of something you heard sometime-somewhere.:rolleyes:

Would you explain this, please? Thanks!

HisGrace
Oct 28th 2007, 03:09 PM
This sounds like a rubber stamp of something you heard sometime-somewhere.:rolleyes:


Would you explain this, please? Thanks!I find that people often repeat what they have heard from somewhere else, without using their own proper discernment.

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 03:17 PM
I find that people often repeat what they have heard from somewhere else, without using their own proper discernment.
It doesn't take discernment truth be told. One need simply listen to their message. ;)

HisGrace
Oct 28th 2007, 04:18 PM
The issue here is money. I have never heard of them asking for money to listen to their name and claim message. That's ridiculous.

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 04:30 PM
The issue here is money. I have never heard of them asking for money to listen to their name and claim message. That's ridiculous.
Um... that isn't even close to what he said. What he said was that the process of getting the prosperity is giving to them. So no clue how you read the thing to come up with what you think ridiculous. But what he said wasn't ridiculous at all nor does it take discernment to see. As I said... one simply need listen to them or watch them on television. It's slap out in the open. Sow your seed here and God will bless you however many fold they are preaching on at the time. Or whatever creative tactic they are using to rile folks up to send them money... such as the Psalms 58: blessing. Send 58 dollars a month for 12 months and God will give you this blessing. Some such nonsense and yes... the idea is clear. If you give this amount of money then you will be prospered with this blessing. It is a gimmick. Pure and simple and folks buy into all of the time.

There is biblical prosperity. It ain't that sort of nonsense. ;)

HisGrace
Oct 29th 2007, 01:21 AM
I'm not changing my position. Many love to follow the hype that is created because of their views, which is grossly exaggerated through the media. People thrive on sensationalism

ProjectPeter
Oct 29th 2007, 02:15 PM
It isn't the media HisGrace. I've studied the Prosperity movement for many years and still do a couple of times a year. Their doctrine is full of flaws. Matter of fact... let me get some errands done today and then I'll start working on that. Folks can do with it what they will.

Diggindeeper
Oct 29th 2007, 03:55 PM
I agree. This teaching is definitely filled with flaws and sometimes, a danger to whomever is being taught this. Until Project Peter gets back later, why not take a look at some Apologetic Research sites that do research on various teachings, cults, heresies, etc.? Here is just one site that includes a short video. Apologetics Index is very reputable and dependable.

ApologeticsIndex (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/)
Apologetics Research Resources on religious movements, cults, sects, world religions and related issues


Just click here to go to the site: (Be sure to go on to page 2 also.)
Prosperity Teaching
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/139-prosperity-teaching (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/139-prosperity-teaching)

Diggindeeper
Oct 29th 2007, 04:09 PM
Here is just one more site that can be trusted. They also research and report about flawed teachings. It is the Biblical Discernment Ministries. This gives actual quotes from various well known ministers and ministries. This is important, because unless we listen to all that is being taught, we could only pick up on what seems so nice.


Positive Confession/PMA-Prosperity Gospel and the New Age
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/posit.htm (mhtml:{0C048784-E3B5-414F-A0D2-C6AA51A5DADE}mid://00000000/!x-usc:http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/posit.htm)

ProjectPeter
Oct 29th 2007, 04:12 PM
The problem with sites like apologeticsindex is that they teach against it according to their "doctrine" as well as they don't always take stuff said in context... actually they often take things out of context to make it seem the speaker saying something they don't say. Best way to make a biblical case is to just that. Forget these sites and get into the Scripture and see what holds up. ;)

Diggindeeper
Oct 29th 2007, 04:43 PM
Yes! The total sum of scriptures certainly show the true balance in scriptures.

Hebrews 11 is such an example. The entire chapter goes through telling of the great faith of many, and how by their faith, they did great things! But then it ends with"

Hebrews 11:33-40
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Yes, we must have faith, and I have personally seen unexplainable miracles and healings, etc. But when that does not happen, the BALANCE of scripture shows me that it is not due to any lack of faith or of speaking "wrong words" or negative words. Reality is, we don't know what we may have to endure. But even if we should ever have to wander about in sheep skins and goat skins or be destitute, afflicted, tormented, living in caves, or any such thing...it does not mean we did not have mature faith. Balance means that such things would not, could not, altar my faith in God at all.