PDA

View Full Version : National ID Card and NAIS a conspiracy for real!



possumliving
Jan 6th 2007, 01:01 PM
Well, is everybody ready to line up for the Natinal ID Card? It was on the news last night and it's slated for VA very soon.

I wonder if they can force you to get one? I don't travel outside the US. It's mandatory by 2008.

http://www.nonationalid.com/

Funny how this deadline coincides with NAIS's mandates that the premises of all animal owners be registered by 2008!

www.nonais.org (http://www.nonais.org)

Mark of the beasts and now they are working on the mark of the beast. Precusors, all precursors.

Steph

daughter
Jan 6th 2007, 01:06 PM
Hey, I am glad I'm not the only one thinking this. They are working on ID stuff in the UK too, and people keep laughing at me for saying that humans will be walking around with ID chips soon. Folks say, "if you've got nothing to hide, why not just go along with it?" Because I don't trust the folks in charge, that's why!

When my son is grown I imagine he'll be living in a world where some people will be "road testing" the mark. Ie, they'll have microchips under their skin, as tracking devices (stops you being kidnapped, safety precaution don't you know) and also to use as swipe cards "to buy and sell". Only last year there were parents in the UK who paid to have a chip implanted in their daughter so that they could track her via computer and know she was safe. I can imagine this becoming a big selling point for the Mark.

As you say, it's precursors.

jas
Jan 6th 2007, 01:22 PM
There was a family in south florida that let themselves be used as testers of some implantable chip. The reason they gave was for medical reasons the father had many medical issues and felt that having all the info implanted on the chip in case of an imergency it could all be right there with one swipe of the scanner.

It is true that we are all being conditioned to accept this when it happens. slowly it will take different forms and reasoning until it is madatory. Well we have front row seats watching as the technology develope and the march towards Christs return.

possumliving
Jan 6th 2007, 01:23 PM
Hey, I am glad I'm not the only one thinking this. They are working on ID stuff in the UK too, and people keep laughing at me for saying that humans will be walking around with ID chips soon. Folks say, "if you've got nothing to hide, why not just go along with it?" Because I don't trust the folks in charge, that's why!

When my son is grown I imagine he'll be living in a world where some people will be "road testing" the mark. Ie, they'll have microchips under their skin, as tracking devices (stops you being kidnapped, safety precaution don't you know) and also to use as swipe cards "to buy and sell". Only last year there were parents in the UK who paid to have a chip implanted in their daughter so that they could track her via computer and know she was safe. I can imagine this becoming a big selling point for the Mark.

As you say, it's precursors.
There are already people here in the US who have been implanted. They started out with pets and then they suggested it for Alzheimer patients, next for inmates/prisoners.

But several years ago there were people actually volunteering for it.

Steph

Duane Morse
Jan 6th 2007, 01:33 PM
And then I wonder how long it will be before it is considered child abuse not to have your children implanted at birth.

jas
Jan 6th 2007, 01:43 PM
not long probably, It is a crime to discipline your children these days with out the authorites knocking at your door wondering what right you have to teach and correct them . Then they wonder where you were when they end up in jail for all sorts of crimes.

So sad.

possumliving
Jan 6th 2007, 01:53 PM
Okay, did a little more research on this thing. Can't get a job, can't open a bank account without it. Between this and the NAIS thingy, you won't be able to buy food, sell food, get a job or spend money without the cards or without at least running into this ID mess.

There is also an agenda going on to require that all Feed Dealers keep track of who they sell feed to and what they buy.

And the UK has the same deadline, 2008.
Steph

moonglow
Jan 6th 2007, 03:20 PM
Sorry I just don't believe this is the mark of the beast...if it is, then only the rich will have the ablity to choose...the poor will be saved though because they have no need of a chip since they have no money.

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day. It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day.

Even if poverty may be lessening for the world as a whole, it continues to be an enormous problem:

One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes. That's 270 million people since 1990, the majority women and children, roughly equal to the population of the US.
Every year nearly 11 million children die before their fifth birthday.
800 million people go to bed hungry every day.
The three richest people in the world control more wealth than all 600 million people living in the world's poorest countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Do you have any idea of the huge amount of money it would take to tag everyone in this world with any kind of mark? And so many do live in isloated areas of the world...in jungles, on mountains...in deep valleys, on islands...by the time they got to everyone which would take a massive amount of manpower and money, so many new babies would be born and several years old they would have to start all over again.

There ARE alot of people that live on the land, that hunt their food, drink from rivers....they have no idea what money is, or credit cards, or anything of the sorts....why would they care about an ID card? If people would just use some common sense they would see this just is not fesable so we need to take a new look at those passages in the bible...
__________________
http://childrenofthedumps.com/

http://vitw.org/archives/756

Truly if our salvation comes down to taking the mark (getting a chip, or ID card) then the poor have a free ticket to Heaven ...and that isn't bibical. I would like to see a real news link that says this is all true, not a religious site saying this by the way.

God bless

Mograce2U
Jan 6th 2007, 03:45 PM
We can't even control illegal immigrants gettng into this country or suicide bombers getting on airplanes. Its a lot like gun control - what you will end up with is only the criminals with any freedom and anonymnity. Its like any theory, it only sounds like a good plan until you try to get it to work with human beings. We are not cattle. No we are far too inventive in our sin to not corrupt it into something else. And corrupt it we will. Only those who underestimate the sinfulness of the human heart could even entertain that such ideas would have any "good" purpose.

Quickened
Jan 6th 2007, 03:47 PM
Sorry I just don't believe this is the mark of the beast..

I will stand in agreement with you here

moonglow
Jan 6th 2007, 03:49 PM
This is the information I am finding in the news on the ID card so far:

http://www.cio.in/news/viewArticle/ARTICLEID=2602
UK Government Changes Plan on ID Card Database

The U.K. government has made a U-turn on controversial plans for a single ID Card database. Instead of one huge, new National Identity Register (NIR) database, it will now be spread across three existing systems. However, John Reid, the Home Secretary, said it was "a sensible decision" and denied it was a U-turn. The change is needed to make the plan -- now estimated at Rs 46,901 crore over 10 years -- more affordable.


Some of the cost is expected to be met by individuals paying for the card. Another cost-cutting change is the removal of iris scan data from the system. Fingerprints and facial scans are the two remaining biometric data types.

Those making two dollars or less a day sure won't beable to pay for a card...plus why would they need a card when they live in dumps? Or a mountain, in the jungles? They don't have grocery stores to go to or banks ...they barder or hunt or dig through the trash for what they need.

http://www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_4946341
Government finalizes rules for port ID card
Background checks to begin in March on 750,000; card to go into effect 18 months later.
By Kristopher Hanson, Staff writer

Federal authorities on Wednesday released final regulations for a national port worker identification card for hundreds of thousands of longshoremen, mariners and other port workers across the country.
The card, which requires an extensive federal background check, will not initially apply to most of the immigrant truckers who haul goods in and out of the port complex in Long Beach and Los Angeles.

Background checks begin in March on an estimated 750,000 port workers, with the program, known as the Transportation Worker Identification Card, or TWIC, going into effect about 18 months later, an official said Wednesday.

Although the card requires a review of an applicant's immigration status, it does not preclude noncitizens who are gainfully employed and have no criminal history.

In addition, the card will be issued only to port workers with "unescorted access" to terminals and ships.

"We shouldn't make the assumption that truck drivers have unrestricted access to terminals," said Nico Melendez, a Transportation Security Administration spokesman.

The card will contain the holder's photograph and name, an expiration date and a serial number. An integrated circuit chip will store the holder's fingerprint template, a four-digit PIN chosen by the individual and unique identifying information, Melendez said.
Those barred from obtaining a card include individuals with certain serious felony convictions, aliens eligible for deportation and those posing a "terrorism security risk to the United States," according to the regulation.

Union officials representing port workers have expressed reservations about the card's cost, which ranges from $139 to $159, and its potential effect on members.

"It makes no sense to impose onerous requirements on workers now and force them to pay almost $150 for a glorified flash pass that may never be used as intended," said Edward Wytkind, a spokesman for the AFL-CIO Transportation Trades Department. "Why should workers bear the brunt of our government's transportation security programs?"

So the bad guys don't get a card (yet the bible says its the nonbelievers that will take the mark)...this seems a little backwards then from what the bible says.

http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=conWebDoc.9308

Plans for iris scans in ID cards dropped
05/01/2007

The government has announced that plans for iris scans to be used as part of the national ID card scheme have been dropped.

It had originally been envisaged that the national biometric database would include iris scans, fingerprints and facial measurements in order to identify every adult in the UK.

However, the government has announced that due to cost and technical uncertainties iris scans will not be used.

That is going to be the biggest problem...the cost...there is no way everyone in the whole world can get an ID card or a chip...the 'beast' would have to solve the world's proverty problem first...the cost would be massive! Not too mention impossible when a new baby is born every half second in this world.

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop

Image how many would have to be sent out throughout the whole world to make sure every baby got a chip or an ID card...only in advanced nations are babies born in hospitals....they certainly aren't in third world counties, in jungles, etc...to even find them all would literally be impossible. Plus if a baby is given an ID card or a chip, that takes away their right to choose....and if this was the mark of the beast, the baby would be condemned according to the bible for taking the mark...I think the bible makes it clear this is a conscience choice made by people old enough to make that choice. So would the beast wait and let each child reach a certain age then have them make that choice....from the pre-trib point of view the beast only reigns three and a half years...at the most seven depending on your point of view on it.

Anyway I am not finding any news article that says people cannot buy or sell or drive their car, etc, without a national ID card. There are plenty of religious sites saying this but I am not finding this based on any facts though. Oh and if you do a search, those that have gotten the chip implants....they have mostly all gotten them in their upper arm...not in their right hand or in their forehead.

God bless

Sherrie
Jan 6th 2007, 03:55 PM
I will stand in agreement with you here

Agree as well!


I believe when I die of this body, I will be with Jesus in heaven living in His body. No need to worry of such things. Just a closer walk with Him!

Sherrie

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 04:06 PM
Sorry I just don't believe this is the mark of the beast...if it is, then only the rich will have the ablity to choose...the poor will be saved though because they have no need of a chip since they have no money.

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day. It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day.

Even if poverty may be lessening for the world as a whole, it continues to be an enormous problem:

One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes. That's 270 million people since 1990, the majority women and children, roughly equal to the population of the US.
Every year nearly 11 million children die before their fifth birthday.
800 million people go to bed hungry every day.
The three richest people in the world control more wealth than all 600 million people living in the world's poorest countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Do you have any idea of the huge amount of money it would take to tag everyone in this world with any kind of mark? And so many do live in isloated areas of the world...in jungles, on mountains...in deep valleys, on islands...by the time they got to everyone which would take a massive amount of manpower and money, so many new babies would be born and several years old they would have to start all over again.

There ARE alot of people that live on the land, that hunt their food, drink from rivers....they have no idea what money is, or credit cards, or anything of the sorts....why would they care about an ID card? If people would just use some common sense they would see this just is not fesable so we need to take a new look at those passages in the bible...
__________________
http://childrenofthedumps.com/

http://vitw.org/archives/756

Truly if our salvation comes down to taking the mark (getting a chip, or ID card) then the poor have a free ticket to Heaven ...and that isn't bibical. I would like to see a real news link that says this is all true, not a religious site saying this by the way.

God bless


But could you please tell me then what God meant when He said, with crystal clarity, that both the rich and the poor would be required to take the mark in order to buy and sell?

I understand you think this happened back in 70 AD, but for a moment pretend it did not and explain to me then the trends toward this and how in light of what God said, which I mentioned above, it will not be so?

Could it be that what you think is based not alone on what you believe and reason and know but also on what you do not know? Some piece of information you do not have that would change your thinking? That your opinion is not what guides either sat*n or those that would bring this about? Is there possibly more out there that you are not aware of and will not be prevented merely because you do not see how it could be?

As I've been saying for well over a year now, watch the trends.

And I'm not trying to argue this with you MG as we've been through this before, but I'd like you to think beyond what is in front of you and only what you see.

As for the right forearm, it qualifies as the right hand.

You have presented some points that would seem to say, such a thing cannot be because of this or that problem. And yet you are on the internet, risking everyday your computer from a virus and so on. Prolems with being on the interent? You bet and yet it cannot grow fast enough. To suggest that some problems might exist and that is proof it cannot ever be is ignoring historical fact of many things. Computers are tremendous security risks in business and government. The only safe solution is not to have them, and yet we do. The problems are quite simply not a problem, a deterrent nor something that will stop what is coming. Do you own a credit card or perhaps a debit card? Any problems with those? YOu bet and yet we have and use them. Problems with your SS#? Identity theft is rampant and growing and yet we have them. Suggested problems as ebing a deterrent are ignoring reality, history and the trend that cannot be stopped.

Just keep an eye open for the trends; it costs you nothing to be aware and look beyond the obvious and recognize what is coming.

Finally, the ID card is not the mark, but it is my belief that the RFID chip implant will be. Time will reveal if this is so or not. The process will be one that is initially voluntary I think, but soon enough it will become such that without it you cannot buy or sell. It might be interesting that the government won't have to push very hard at first for it since the businesses will require it as well. There are businesses out there that are looking for ways in which to sell to you without anything more than scanning you; not scanning your eye, a card, your fingerprint and so on but you - that little chip in you. Yes, I said there are in fact, even now, businesses that want to move you in this direction.

I see a lot of opinions on here, but how many I wonder actually have more than an opinion? What knowledge of RFID do you have? What knowledge of the businesses that are getting together over RFID do you have? Sometimes it takes more than mere opinion to make a matter true.

mudkoala
Jan 6th 2007, 04:27 PM
An early prototype of the Mark of the beast ID card has already been in use in my country (Malaysia) for a few years. It's a universal microchip that is designed to replace all money, bank cards, and all forms of ID probably even using genetic material in the future. And yes, there is 666 on both the front and the back of the card if you pay attention. We are not using it's full capability yet but when it's fully implemented we won't be able to buy or sell, use a bank, travel, see a doctor, or get a job without it so only Christians who can live by faith in God's miraculous provision and healing will be able survive. Basically, it is both a spiritual mark and physical mark because if you can't survive without the world, you're forced to take the physical mark. I have no doubt it will be replaced by an implant in a few years.

Anyway, here is most scriptural and researched article on the Mark I've read so far: http://www.americaslastdays.com/hm13.htm

jas
Jan 6th 2007, 04:43 PM
I don't believe that the national ID is the mark either, but it is the slow methodical indoctrination of the concept to people all over the world that the use of such technology will be for the good of the people. Identity theft, abductions, banking , medical records ect... people will buy into the thinking that these are good.

By the time whatever the method is, people will be glad to take it. Except those who know what it really is. Rich or poor if God says it will be that way it will for sure. Maybe by then the population will be smaller, desparate, who knows for sure. Things we could not see just 10yrs or so ago we see so much clearer now. So when it happens the rich the poor everyone will be required to have it.

Just a thought and not a good one at that. If ii is required , which it will be, the poor and old, and sick ect are not valued today as they should be. It is becoming acceptable in some circles that these should not be let to live anyway. It could come to survival of the fittest and best, richest,
It will be such a terrible time in the world that these may be thought of as expendable. Just a thought.

moonglow
Jan 6th 2007, 04:44 PM
But could you please tell me then what God meant when He said, with crystal clarity, that both the rich and the poor would be required to take the mark in order to buy and sell?

I understand you think this happened back in 70 AD, but for a moment pretend it did not and explain to me then the trends toward this and how in light of what God said, which I mentioned above, it will not be so?

I don't understand your question...sorry.

Could it be that what you think is based not alone on what you believe and reason and know but also on what you do not know?

uh?

Some piece of information you do not have that would change your thinking? That your opinion is not what guides either sat*n or those that would bring this about? Is there possibly more out there that you are not aware of and will not be prevented merely because you do not see how it could be?

Sure my opinion could be wrong...but going by what you said, then so could yours.

As I've been saying for well over a year now, watch the trends.

And I'm not trying to argue this with you MG as we've been through this before, but I'd like you to think beyond what is in front of you and only what you see.

But aren't you just going by what you see in front of you and then coming to the conclusion this is the mark of the beast? You aren't seeing beyond what you see with your own eyes.

As for the right forearm, it qualifies as the right hand.

I never said they had it done in their right arms though...some did, some had it done in their left arm. Seems like to me if you want to take that passage that literally on the mark you need to stick with what the bible says about in the right hand or forehead.

You have presented some points that would seem to say, such a thing cannot be because of this or that problem. And yet you are on the internet, risking everyday your computer from a virus and so on.

Uh? This makes totally no sense...how does proverty in the world connect with my being on a computer? Where did I say anything about sercruity risk in my posts? I didn't.

Prolems with being on the interent? You bet and yet it cannot grow fast enough.

What can't grow fast enough? You have really lost me...I truly do not understand half of what you are saying in your post.

To suggest that some problems might exist and that is proof it cannot ever be is ignoring historical fact of many things. Computers are tremendous security risks in business and government. The only safe solution is not to have them, and yet we do. The problems are quite simply not a problem, a deterrent nor something that will stop what is coming. Do you own a credit card or perhaps a debit card? Any problems with those? YOu bet and yet we have and use them. Problems with your SS#? Identity theft is rampant and growing and yet we have them. Suggested problems as ebing a deterrent are ignoring reality, history and the trend that cannot be stopped.

Ok...I didn't bring up anything about sercruity risk about credit cards or computers....so I really have no idea what you are talking about. What did I say in my post to cause this kind of thinking on your part?


Just keep an eye open for the trends; it costs you nothing to be aware and look beyond the obvious and recognize what is coming.

Of course I am aware ...its constantly posted on here...about the chip, the ID cards, etc...kind of hard to miss it.

Sorry I am having such a hard time understanding your questions or even the point you are trying to make.

God bless

moonglow
Jan 6th 2007, 04:46 PM
An early prototype of the Mark of the beast ID card has already been in use in my country (Malaysia) for a few years. It's a universal microchip that is designed to replace all money, bank cards, and all forms of ID probably even using genetic material in the future. And yes, there is 666 on both the front and the back of the card if you pay attention. We are not using it's full capability yet but when it's fully implemented we won't be able to buy or sell, use a bank, travel, see a doctor, or get a job without it so only Christians who can live by faith in God's miraculous provision and healing will be able survive. Basically, it is both a spiritual mark and physical mark because if you can't survive without the world, you're forced to take the physical mark. I have no doubt it will be replaced by an implant in a few years.

Anyway, here is most scriptural and researched article on the Mark I've read so far: http://www.americaslastdays.com/hm13.htm

can you post a news link about these ID cards in your country please that have 666 on them...otherwise we only have your word on it.
thanks

God bless

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 04:46 PM
An early prototype of the Mark of the beast ID card has already been in use in my country (Malaysia) for a few years. It's a universal microchip that is designed to replace all money, bank cards, and all forms of ID probably even using genetic material in the future. And yes, there is 666 on both the front and the back of the card if you pay attention. We are not using it's full capability yet but when it's fully implemented we won't be able to buy or sell, use a bank, travel, see a doctor, or get a job without it so only Christians who can live by faith in God's miraculous provision and healing will be able survive. Basically, it is both a spiritual mark and physical mark because if you can't survive without the world, you're forced to take the physical mark. I have no doubt it will be replaced by an implant in a few years.

Anyway, here is most scriptural and researched article on the Mark I've read so far: http://www.americaslastdays.com/hm13.htm


Indeed it will be replaced by the chip as the card is too easily lost. We think here in America that such a thing cannot be, but most countries in this world do not hold to the same values we do, and it will eventually come here as well.

As man becomes more depraved, as in the days of Noah, man will become more accepting of such things. Additionally, man has already become completely conditioned to technology, and things are moving in this world at a pace it has never seen before and this pace is exponential.

I've said this before on here, but will repeat it again. There was an article of a store chain in Florida that was setting up a sysytem in its stores whereby a person could scan their finger to pay for the goods they'd purchased. No card - just your finger. The article ended by saying that the store chain eventually wanted to go to cashierless stores.

Now how many I wonder, reading what I just said about the article are thinking: ok, so big deal, they scan your finger. That isn't the mark!

You'd be right it isn't the mark. You'd also have missed the most important part of the article: the part where they said they eventually wanted to go to cashierless stores.

Now how many I wonder are actually taking the time to think what this means?

Here is what this means: You will have an implanted chip.

Really! Some must be saying this about now. Yes - for a fact.

Ask yourself how they can go about having cashierless stores? Only one way. First, understand that they are using RFID chips for the goods they sell. Now if they had no cashier, you simply load up your cart and walk right out. Sure the scanners at the door scanned everything you left with, but they didn't scan you! You didn't put your ginger in the scanner, and so you just stole whatever you wanted. Let's say you have a card to make the pruchase. It is the same as your finger - leave the card in the car, go in and leave with whatever you want.

No. They will scan you.

If you took the article at face value and didn't bother to think it through, you'd have missed the most important part of it: that final sentence. And the store isn't interested in whether there are security problems because they will be worked out just as the security problems had to be worked out with scanning your finger (did you think there were none?). They aren't interested in whether people will like it or not - businesses are moving in this direction, and they are meeting together and collaborating and they are planning; you will not have a choice.

So looking at how it is at this very moment and claiming today is proof for tomorrow and that since it is not so today it will not be so tomorrow is a terrible mistake and not one businesses or government are making.

Marcat1702003
Jan 6th 2007, 04:59 PM
We can't even control illegal immigrants gettng into this country or suicide bombers getting on airplanes. Its a lot like gun control - what you will end up with is only the criminals with any freedom and anonymnity. Its like any theory, it only sounds like a good plan until you try to get it to work with human beings. We are not cattle. No we are far too inventive in our sin to not corrupt it into something else. And corrupt it we will. Only those who underestimate the sinfulness of the human heart could even entertain that such ideas would have any "good" purpose.


I don't think it is the mark either, but it sure goes a long way to further desensitize people to greater invasion. Remember not too many years ago when debit cards became "common"? Everyone adjusted and it really appears that they make life a bit simpler. Each simple adjustment makes is easier for the next one.

Marcat1702003
Jan 6th 2007, 05:02 PM
Sorry Mograce! I thought I had quoted moonglow :B. Maybe I need a nap!

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 05:04 PM
Of course I am aware ...its constantly posted on here...about the chip, the ID cards, etc...kind of hard to miss it.

Sorry I am having such a hard time understanding your questions or even the point you are trying to make.

God bless

Perhaps I am thinking of someone else, but I thought you had raised the issue of security concerns before in other threads on this matter, and I tend to head things off and make the argument before it is raised - sometimes, which is what I was doing in my prior post.

Yes, it is only my opinion, however, you have only your opinion and I have more! I have evidence out there that is continually mounting that points to the RFID chip implant becoming a reality. I've been watching this trend now for quite some time and I have some knowledge of this technology in the business world from personal experience. YOur opinion is based on the idea of the poor and the arguments concerning the poor. But is that enough in light of continually mounting evidence to the contrary?

I take God's word and then I watch for it to come about in the world. It will not be God implementing this mark but it will be man, so I am watching man.

And the people in this world that are in power and will bring it about do not ever base their decisions on the poor. They do not decide to do a thing or not do it because of or in regards to the poor. It is about power for them and about souls for sat*n and the poor, as they have always been throughout history, will be drug along liking it or not.

Again though, watch the trends. It will not happen overnight. It will be gradual as it must be. That will be a major part of the deception in it.

You are more than intelligent enough and wise enough in God.

Finally, yes it is only what I think. Time will tell. The important thing here is that we do not fail to see it when it gets here. We'll gradually be pressured into taking it, and that pressure will be tremendous and many claiming Christ, I believe, will take it to save their lives and they will lose their souls.

I am not an alarmist - anything but that. I do not prescribe to dem*ns behind every bush nor conspiracies in the minds of every politician the world over and in the boardrooms of every business, though such things exist, but I do believe this is it and it's coming. I suppose that is why I bother to discuss it.

God bless you too MG. :)

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 05:09 PM
We can't even control illegal immigrants gettng into this country or suicide bombers getting on airplanes. Its a lot like gun control - what you will end up with is only the criminals with any freedom and anonymnity. Its like any theory, it only sounds like a good plan until you try to get it to work with human beings. We are not cattle. No we are far too inventive in our sin to not corrupt it into something else. And corrupt it we will. Only those who underestimate the sinfulness of the human heart could even entertain that such ideas would have any "good" purpose.


Which is exactly why the chip implant will occur. First the cards and they will be given their chance to work and they will fail. This is precisely why the cards are being suggested and used to show that they cannot succeed. What you will not see is the idea being claimed a failure but rather the method - that cards themselves. The inability of the cards to solve the problems and their faults will be exactly what is needed to promote the chip.

The chip can solve more problems in this world than you can think of. People, once they know this and see it will embrace it and gladly.

Mograce2U
Jan 6th 2007, 05:21 PM
Earlycall, #13 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1105745&postcount=13)

But could you please tell me then what God meant when He said, with crystal clarity, that both the rich and the poor would be required to take the mark in order to buy and sell?I don't know how crystal clear I can make it for you, but perhaps there is some sense we need to have to understand what John is saying in this highly symbolic and spiritual revelation he received.

The player here is the false prophet - a religious figure; that sets the context for us since worship is what he directs to the beast. This buying and selling is therefore in a religious type setting - like the temple? The set up concerns idolatry. Remember Jesus' visit to the temple when He overturned the tables and chased out the money changers with a whip? (Mat 21:12; Mark 11:15)

(Rev 13:16-18 KJV) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: {17} And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. {18} Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Also, remember the 5 foolish virgins who were sent to buy their oil from those who sold it? (Mat 25) Olive oil was not the substance they lacked, and the sellers in view were not trading commodities either. So the concept of this passage being in a religious setting is not new to us. There is even a precedence already established in the OT for how one is supposed to be "marked".

(Exo 13:8-9 KJV) And thou shalt show thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. {9} And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

(Deu 6:6-9 KJV) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: {7} And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. {8} And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. {9} And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Now the Jews in their hyper-literal mindset made themselves little boxes and put scripture inside which they tied onto bands so they could wear them on their foreheads and their wrists. But was this what God intended to relate to them that they were to do? Hardly. Yet this is what many do with this passage from Revelation.

Israel turned to idolatry over and over in the OT and suffered judgment from God when they did. Cesar worship was also prevalent in the times John lived. Nero (noted for burning Christians for candles), whose name numerically equals "666", was in power in those days and certainly sets a type for who the beast was. Israel also had problems aligning themselves in the past with their heathen neighbors (Egypt, Assyria...), trusting in their strength instead of God. This was often what led them to join in their idolatrous practices as well. Covetousness, greed, selfish ambition - all mark the idolator who thinks he can manipulate the hand of God to bless him materially.

Christians tend to ignore the passages that speak about idolatry, but here in Rev 13 are plenty of references to describe what it is.

Saved7
Jan 6th 2007, 05:24 PM
Hey, I am glad I'm not the only one thinking this. They are working on ID stuff in the UK too, and people keep laughing at me for saying that humans will be walking around with ID chips soon. Folks say, "if you've got nothing to hide, why not just go along with it?" Because I don't trust the folks in charge, that's why!

When my son is grown I imagine he'll be living in a world where some people will be "road testing" the mark. Ie, they'll have microchips under their skin, as tracking devices (stops you being kidnapped, safety precaution don't you know) and also to use as swipe cards "to buy and sell". Only last year there were parents in the UK who paid to have a chip implanted in their daughter so that they could track her via computer and know she was safe. I can imagine this becoming a big selling point for the Mark.

As you say, it's precursors.

Even the creator of this implantable chip has said it's a really bad thing.

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 05:37 PM
Earlycall, #13 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1105745&postcount=13)
I don't know how crystal clear I can make it for you, but perhaps there is some sense we need to have to understand what John is saying in this highly symbolic and spiritual revelation he received.

The player here is the false prophet - a religious figure; that sets the context for us since worship is what he directs to the beast. This buying and selling is therefore in a religious type setting - like the temple? The set up concerns idolatry. Remember Jesus' visit to the temple when He overturned the tables and chased out the money changers with a whip? (Mat 21:12; Mark 11:15)

(Rev 13:16-18 KJV) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: {17} And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. {18} Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Also, remember the 5 foolish virgins who were sent to buy their oil from those who sold it? (Mat 25) Olive oil was not the substance they lacked, and the sellers in view were not trading commodities either. So the concept of this passage being in a religious setting is not new to us. There is even a precedence already established in the OT for how one is supposed to be "marked".

(Exo 13:8-9 KJV) And thou shalt show thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. {9} And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

(Deu 6:6-9 KJV) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: {7} And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. {8} And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. {9} And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Now the Jews in their hyper-literal mindset made themselves little boxes and put scripture inside which they tied onto bands so they could wear them on their foreheads and their wrists. But was this what God intended to relate to them that they were to do? Hardly. Yet this is what many do with this passage from Revelation.

Israel turned to idolatry over and over in the OT and suffered judgment from God when they did. Cesar worship was also prevalent in the times John lived. Nero (noted for burning Christians for candles), whose name numerically equals "666", was in power in those days and certainly sets a type for who the beast was. Israel also had problems aligning themselves in the past with their heathen neighbors (Egypt, Assyria...), trusting in their strength instead of God. This was often what led them to join in their idolatrous practices as well. Covetousness, greed, selfish ambition - all mark the idolator who thinks he can manipulate the hand of God to bless him materially.

Christians tend to ignore the passages that speak about idolatry, but here in Rev 13 are plenty of references to describe what it is.


I'm going to have to stick with a physical mark implmented by man. To date, I've not seen any explanation of this verse being allegorical that proved sufficient.

Mograce2U
Jan 6th 2007, 05:41 PM
I'm going to have to stick with a physical mark implmented by man. To date, I've not seen any explanation of this verse being allegorical that proved sufficient.Let me sell you a little box...

ShirleyFord
Jan 6th 2007, 06:43 PM
Yes, it is only my opinion, however, you have only your opinion and I have more! I have evidence out there that is continually mounting that points to the RFID chip implant becoming a reality. I've been watching this trend now for quite some time and I have some knowledge of this technology in the business world from personal experience. YOur opinion is based on the idea of the poor and the arguments concerning the poor. But is that enough in light of continually mounting evidence to the contrary?

I take God's word and then I watch for it to come about in the world. It will not be God implementing this mark but it will be man, so I am watching man.





I'm curious. Where is the verse in the Bible that literally says, "the mark of the beast is an RFID chip implant"?

Shirley

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 06:48 PM
Let me sell you a little box...

I'll trade you even up for some of the Brooklyn bridge.

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 07:07 PM
I'm curious. Where is the verse in the Bible that literally says, "the mark of the beast is an RFID chip implant"?

Shirley

Are you really curious Shirley? It sounds like you are actually saying that you don't beleive it is the RFID chip because no verse says that it is that. But then there is noverse that does say what it is or is not. I think trying to make the claim it is not the RFID chip carries about as much weight as does my saying it is. That would put us both in the same boat - that of opinion. I am very happy to admit I am only claiming my opinion and what I think here.

But I think I made it clear that I am watching the world to see what they are doing to fulfill God's word. Now if at some point the trend moves away from this technology to something else and it looks as though that it no longer merits me thinking it will be the mark of the beast, then I will set this opinion I have aside and move on.

moonglow
Jan 6th 2007, 07:11 PM
what I don't get is this...why take the mark of the beast literally, but not the seal of God on believers?

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”


Revelation 9:4
They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

I am sealed right now on my forehead but see nothing there...because the seal is IN the mind. The right hand stands for actions...what we do, our actions always show our true beliefs...as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them...the fruits being actions...the mark isn't just about buying and selling...it always, always, include worshipping the beast too. One cannot happen without the other. A person cannot be marked without agreeing to worship the beast also in other words. Its what we worship using our mind and through our actions (hand).

Its very important to never seperate the mark from the worship...otherwise you get a misunderstanding of the scriptures and the scriptures never ever list the mark as a single thing without including the worship of the beast too...they always go together.



Revelation 13:15-17
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:8-10
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 16:2
[ First Bowl: Loathsome Sores ] So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So the question would be, is getting a national ID card or a chip going to include worshipping the beast? If not, then its not the mark of the beast.

They have to go together.

God bless

EarlyCall
Jan 6th 2007, 07:21 PM
what I don't get is this...why take the mark of the beast literally, but not the seal of God on believers?


I am sealed right now on my forehead but see nothing there...because the seal is IN the mind. The right hand stands for actions...what we do, our actions always show our true beliefs...as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them...the fruits being actions...the mark isn't just about buying and selling...it always, always, include worshipping the beast too. One cannot happen without the other. A person cannot be marked without agreeing to worship the beast also in other words. Its what we worship using our mind and through our actions (hand).

Its very important to never seperate the mark from the worship...otherwise you get a misunderstanding of the scriptures and the scriptures never ever list the mark as a single thing without including the worship of the beast too...they always go together.


So the question would be, is getting a national ID card or a chip going to include worshipping the beast? If not, then its not the mark of the beast.

They have to go together.

God bless

Here is what I don't understand. Some claim that man will mark man spiritually because God marks His own spiritually. What dictates this must be so? Further, what ability does mere man have to mark another man spiritually?

As to the worshipping of the beast and the taking of the mark, it seems they do go together. Although I heard a minister online recently explain that sat*n is about and has always been about deceiving mankind and that the taking of the mark alone is accepting the beast's system. Well, I dunno, but it was worth thinking about and considering.

I'm ultimately less concerned about defending my opinion than I am in knowing the turth of a matter. So I have to give what this guy said some consideration.

Paul_born_again
Jan 6th 2007, 07:27 PM
This post is addressing people that don't believe that their country (or even the world in general) would accept something like this (I am speaking of an implant). I am writing my opinion based on scripture, as well as personal opinion based on what I believe this technology can accomplish (in addition to buying/selling).

If you read up on the RFID chip implant, you will see that it is basically nothing more than just a microchip with a coded number on it. The receivers can scan the chip, read the number, and therefore know who you are. Just as a bank debit card does not actually contain any money - it is just a number that corresponds to who you are and your bank account info. So it is easy to see that such a device can easily be used for many many reasons, and not just buying/selling and not just easier access to your medical records. With receivers that can pick up the signal from far away, they can easily track where anyone is at any moment. Even though they currently say that this will not be done (the current receivers have to be in close range to the chip), it is not impossible to engineer a long-range receiver.

With that being said, let's take a look at the
Benefits of having the mark from the viewpoint of the secular world, the non-Christian world (and maybe even some Christians) :

- It will save money for our goverments. If you consider the amount of money required for all the world's paper and metal currency, as well as the millions of debit cards, credit cards etc. It is much cheaper to give someone a $100 chip that will last their entire lives. "Don't you want to save your country money?"

- It will save money for business. No more cashiers, no more checkout lines. No more waiting in line to buy a movie ticket or leave your car to pay for gas....etc..

- It will stop most theft, both large and small. Commercial and personal. No more (or very little) muggings on the street because no one carries money anymore. "Don't you want to stop violent crime and make our streets safer?"

- It will be very easy to use. No hassle.

- It will make identity theft a thing of the past. With all central records being held by your government, it will be almost impossible for someone to steal your identity. "Don't you want to be more secure in your life?"

- It will save time for everyone, giving them more time to do what they want.

- It will almost completely end illegal drug trade. "Don't you want to end the war on drugs?"

- It will be a way to track known or suspected terrorists, criminals, child molesters, fugitives etc... "Don't you want to stop convicted child molesters from going near an elementary school and don't you want to know when a suspected terrorist is going near nuclear plant?"

- It will stop trespassing, break-and-entering, and many more crimes.

... the list goes on and on...


Reason for not taking the mark from a Christian perspective :
- God told us not to.



That is fine for us, but do you think our friends, family, co-workers are going to cheer us on for not taking the mark? Of course not. They will be appalled and even angry that we want the above things to continue.

I think I recall reading in the Bible that Christians will be persecuted? Well imagine the whole world embracing this, accept for the Christians. It will kind of mess everything up, won't it?

Still don't think it can happen?

God Bless :)

Paul_born_again
Jan 6th 2007, 07:48 PM
what I don't get is this...why take the mark of the beast literally, but not the seal of God on believers?


Hi moonglow, do you have access to a Bible that shows the original Hebrew and Greek? If not, Download e-Sword - it's a great program for looking up scripture and also shows you the meaning of the words as they were in their original form :)

The Seal of God that you mentioned, means (I'm paraphrasing) "...a stamp as a mark of genuineness, either literally or figuratively."

On the other hand, the mark of the beast is listed as "... a scratch or etching ... as a badge of servitude..."

Their appears to be a big difference.

Mograce2U
Jan 6th 2007, 10:25 PM
Hi moonglow, do you have access to a Bible that shows the original Hebrew and Greek? If not, Download e-Sword - it's a great program for looking up scripture and also shows you the meaning of the words as they were in their original form :)

The Seal of God that you mentioned, means (I'm paraphrasing) "...a stamp as a mark of genuineness, either literally or figuratively."

On the other hand, the mark of the beast is listed as "... a scratch or etching ... as a badge of servitude..."

Their appears to be a big difference.Charagma can also be a graven work as in an idolatrous image which could also lend a figurative use.

moonglow
Jan 7th 2007, 01:39 AM
Hi moonglow, do you have access to a Bible that shows the original Hebrew and Greek? If not, Download e-Sword - it's a great program for looking up scripture and also shows you the meaning of the words as they were in their original form :)

The Seal of God that you mentioned, means (I'm paraphrasing) "...a stamp as a mark of genuineness, either literally or figuratively."

On the other hand, the mark of the beast is listed as "... a scratch or etching ... as a badge of servitude..."

Their appears to be a big difference.

Yea I use http://www.studylight.org/lex/

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=re+13:16&translation=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1

The New American Standard Bible
Book of Revelation
Chapter

13:16

And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

kai poiei (5719) pantav, touv mikrouv kai touv megalouv, kai touv plousiouv kai touv ptwxouv, kai touv eleuqerouv kai touv doulouv, ina dwsin (5632) autoiv xaragma epi thv xeirov autwn thv deciav h epi to metwpon autwn,

Mark
Strong's Number: 5480 xa/ragma
Original Word Word Origin
xa/ragma from the same as (5482)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Charagma khar'-ag-mah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 9:416,1308
Definition


1. a stamp, an imprinted mark
1. of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
2. the mark branded upon horses
2. thing carved, sculpture, graven work
1. of idolatrous images

Translated Words
KJV (9) - graven, 1; mark, 8;

NAS (8) - image formed, 1; mark, 7;

I still think we need to see what the bible says about what a mark is taking the whole bible into account, and not just singling out one passage:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1jN4u7GzaqUJ:ecclesia.org/truth/beast.html+first+century+Christianity+mark+of+the+ beast&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8
A Mark (seal, sign, token, frontlet) is placed upon the forehead or hands, either as a sign of a curse or as a sign of redemption.


Genesis 4:15: God places a mark on the covenant breaking Cain, so nobody would kill him.

Exodus 28:36-38: Priests of God wore a gold plate upon their forehead, symbolizing the redeemed man.

Exodus 13:9,16, Deuteronomy 6:6,8; 11:18: A mark upon the forehead and hand was a symbol of total obedience to God’s Law.

Solomon 8:6: A seal upon the heart and arm is symbolic of a love for someone.

Isaiah 49:16: God has graven His people on the palms of His hands as a sign that he would not forget them.

Ezekiel 9:4: A mark upon the forehead was indicative of their allegiance to the Lord in the midst of abomination.

Revelation 13:16-17: The Beast places a mark on the hand or forehead of his followers also. This mark is his name (which represents ones character).

Revelation 14:9-11; 16:2; 19:20: Those who receive the mark of the Beast (worship something other than God) will be tormented. Which means...

Revelation 9:4: Those who do not have the seal of God in their forehead will be tormented. The Beast’s mark is contrasted to God’s mark!

Revelation 20:4: Those who do not receive the Beasts’ mark will be the keepers of God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 15:2: To keep the Word of God is to overcome and be victorious over the mark, or name, or character, of the Beast.

Revelation 3:12: The name of God will be written upon those who overcome.

Revelation 7:3; 14:1; 22:4: Where will the name of God be written? It will be sealed in their foreheads!

Revelation 19:13: What exactly is the name of God that’ll be written in their foreheads? It is The Word Of God! (See also John 1:1,14). In other words, Scripture, God's Word, will be in their hearts, minds, and souls!


A Name represents ones Character

Biblically, a name represents one’s character. This is why God changed the name of his servants (Genesis 17:5,15; 32:28; 35:10, 2 Samuel 12:25, Acts 13:9), and told parents what to name their unborn child (Genesis 16:11; 17:19, 1 Chronicles 22:9, Isaiah 7:14, Hosea 1:4,6,9, Matthew 1:21,24, Luke 1:13,31), and why men have chosen one name over another for their child (Judges 6:32, Genesis 35:18, Luke 1:59-60), and why name's of cities have been changed (Genesis 28:19): to reflect their character!

God wants to seal his name, his character, his Law in us (Isaiah 8:16). God’s character is God’s Law, and is described in the Word of God. God’s Law will be written in our hearts and minds (foreheads), Hebrews 10:16, Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26.

The Beast is Man's Government

The Beast wants to put his character in us as well. The Mark of The Beast, like all scripture, is given so that we may understand God and how to serve Him better. The Mark of The Beast teaches us that the Lord demands uncompromising obedience and unswerving dedication. The Beast represents the archetype of the tyrannical state, which is opposed to God’s Word and God’s Law.


In scripture, the Beast is defined as kings (Daniel 7:17, Revelation 17:10-12), and man-made kingdoms (Daniel 7:18,23, Revelation 16:10) that have power to make war and kill (Revelation 11:7; 17:14). The Beast is the government, with rulers and armies, that are against God and his servants (Revelation 19:19). Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23). So rulers that enforce laws contrary to God’s Law, are the Beast.


Followers of the Beast receive his mark of ownership; submission to ungodly, anti-Christian law. The mark in Revelation is not to be taken literally. It’s an allusion to the Old Testament symbol of man’s total obedience to God, and stands as a warning that a society’s God (whether the true God or the state) demands complete commitment in all areas of life. Christians cannot compromise (2 Cor.6:14-18). The state is not absolute, it’s under authority of Christ (Psalm 2, Matthew 28:18); it’s an instrument of God (Romans 13:1-7). It has no license to do whatever it likes. It's ordained purpose is for a rod of correction; to speak the Word of God, to punish evil, and to reward good (Romans 13:4, 1 Peter 2:14, Hebrews 13:7). That is its only authorized purpose.


Who gives power to the Beast? The dragon (Revelation 13:2,4). Who is the dragon? This dragon is the spirit of satan (Revelation 12:9). Those who have the spirit of satan make war with those who "...keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17). The Lord God has revealed Himself as God, but the spirit of satan is the god and prince of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4 John 12:31).


God bless

daughter
Jan 7th 2007, 01:54 AM
Sorry I just don't believe this is the mark of the beast...if it is, then only the rich will have the ablity to choose...the poor will be saved though because they have no need of a chip since they have no money.

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day. It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day.

Even if poverty may be lessening for the world as a whole, it continues to be an enormous problem:

One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes. That's 270 million people since 1990, the majority women and children, roughly equal to the population of the US.
Every year nearly 11 million children die before their fifth birthday.
800 million people go to bed hungry every day.
The three richest people in the world control more wealth than all 600 million people living in the world's poorest countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Do you have any idea of the huge amount of money it would take to tag everyone in this world with any kind of mark? And so many do live in isloated areas of the world...in jungles, on mountains...in deep valleys, on islands...by the time they got to everyone which would take a massive amount of manpower and money, so many new babies would be born and several years old they would have to start all over again.

There ARE alot of people that live on the land, that hunt their food, drink from rivers....they have no idea what money is, or credit cards, or anything of the sorts....why would they care about an ID card? If people would just use some common sense they would see this just is not fesable so we need to take a new look at those passages in the bible...
__________________
http://childrenofthedumps.com/

http://vitw.org/archives/756

Truly if our salvation comes down to taking the mark (getting a chip, or ID card) then the poor have a free ticket to Heaven ...and that isn't bibical. I would like to see a real news link that says this is all true, not a religious site saying this by the way.

God blessWell, we have to remember that when the Mark comes in a huge proportion of the world's population will have been decimated. At least two thirds of us will be gone, so that will reduce the costs. Also, remember that AntiChrist is slated to bring in a new era of prosperity and peace, etc etc. He's going to come in as a saviour - he might well present the mark as something that will help alleviate poverty. "If you take this mark you have a minimum standard of living, and you'll never starve." He'll know full well that some will never take the mark, and that they will be hounded or eliminated. I don't think cost will be a problem to him. This isn't in the context of today's politics, but tomorrows. If you had all the money in the world and you had a megalomaniac desire for everyone to worship you, would money really be an object?

daughter
Jan 7th 2007, 01:56 AM
Also, God would be deeply unfair if He damned somebody because they were a baby whose parent implanted the Mark on them before they knew what it was. The mark might be implanted on babies, but will they really worship the beast?

Mind you, they worship santa clause...:cry:

moonglow
Jan 7th 2007, 02:37 AM
Well, we have to remember that when the Mark comes in a huge proportion of the world's population will have been decimated. At least two thirds of us will be gone, so that will reduce the costs. Also, remember that AntiChrist is slated to bring in a new era of prosperity and peace, etc etc. He's going to come in as a saviour - he might well present the mark as something that will help alleviate poverty. "If you take this mark you have a minimum standard of living, and you'll never starve." He'll know full well that some will never take the mark, and that they will be hounded or eliminated. I don't think cost will be a problem to him. This isn't in the context of today's politics, but tomorrows. If you had all the money in the world and you had a megalomaniac desire for everyone to worship you, would money really be an object?

daughter, I respect you and am glad you are here with us...I truly am. But I don't know if you have been exposed to other views regarding the end times or not. Not everyone believes there will be a seven year tribulation...not everyone believes their will be a rapture....most that post about the mark of the beast actually believe they will be raptured before anything bad starts happening, so I honestly don't know why they worry about the mark so much. Some think the rapture happens half way through the tribulation...some at the end....but there are those of us that don't buy any seven year tribulation at all...and that most of Revelation is in the past...that it was meant for the First Century Christian who went through some truly horrible things...and were told to worship Nero who ruled Rome then or die...they had to go into hiding too...buying and selling openly was very difficult because they did not bow to his government.

Now this isn't to say that there still isn't alot left in Revelation to be fulfilled...Jesus has obviously not come back...satan has not been cast into the lake of fire and so on.

Personally I think that beast has always been with us...and the mark is not physical (though for some it could be) that the mark is actually the worship of anything but God. The mark can be loving money more then God, loving sin more then God...anything put above God 'marks' that person as an idol worshipper and is considered one of the worse (if not the worse) sin a person can commit against God. The whole OT is about God blasting the Hebrews for worshipping idols...He called them even adulteries and prostitutes His outrage was so great. It was just that the worshipped other things, other gods that upset Him so much...but that they killed their own children (threw them into fire and burned them to death) as a scarifce to their false gods. And killed each other and stole and lied and the list of immoral things they did was long...they didn't just turn their backs on God, they hurt each other terribly in the process.

Anyone not abiding by the Lord has the mark of the beast on them..even Jesus says before we are saved we belong to the devil. Satan runs not just the government though as that site says...he runs the media, the music with listen too, what we read, see...what is sold and what is bought...there isn't much if anything in this world that isn't touched by satan in some way. How many times have we heard the media refer to something as 'that's just the nature of the beast'...I think its pretty creepy when they do that actually.

Anyway...didn't mean to ramble sorry.


daughter Also, God would be deeply unfair if He damned somebody because they were a baby whose parent implanted the Mark on them before they knew what it was. The mark might be implanted on babies, but will they really worship the beast?

Mind you, they worship santa clause..

First a child doesn't know how to worship...second Jesus said the kingdom of God belongs to the children.

Matthew 19

The Little Children and Jesus

13 Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

14J esus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Not all children are taught to believe in santa claus either anyway...a child willingly believes what they are taught...you tell them Jesus is real, because of their innocents they believe it...no doubt at all. Jesus wants us to be that believing too! That is why He says anyone such at these...anyone that believes so easily as these children do. I don't think Jesus is going to condemn a child for also believing (for just a little while) in santa clause because the child didn't come up with this on their own...other told him or her...or they saw pictures in the media.

Since a child cannot possible know on their own what is good or evil, if their parents caused them to get a mark the child cannot be held accountable for it..they don't even know what it is...(though as I said I don't believe the mark is literal anyway)

God bless

Duane Morse
Jan 7th 2007, 03:01 AM
Since a child cannot possible know on their own what is good or evil, if their parents caused them to get a mark the child cannot be held accountable for it..they don't even know what it is...(though as I said I don't believe the mark is literal anyway)

God bless
Perhaps, but simply having the mark - for any reason whatsoever - is a bad thing.


Re 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This 'noisome and grievous sore' could be the result of a malfunction in the device (assuming that the mark is both physical and technological), which causes an adverse reaction.

If that is the case, it won't matter that a child does not know or understand. Ignorance won't cause immunity.

moonglow
Jan 7th 2007, 03:40 AM
Perhaps, but simply having the mark - for any reason whatsoever - is a bad thing.


Re 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This 'noisome and grievous sore' could be the result of a malfunction in the device (assuming that the mark is both physical and technological), which causes an adverse reaction.

If that is the case, it won't matter that a child does not know or understand. Ignorance won't cause immunity.

And for that reason, I won't get it nor let Nate get it...its not natural to have things just put in our bodies that aren't for medical reasons...I know pace makers save lives, and other things...they can also cause serious health problems too! I will never forget the horror stories on those silicone breast implants that leaked...there is no way the doctors can get all that googey stuff out of their bodies...:( I just don't see it as being a good thing at all.

God bless

possumliving
Jan 7th 2007, 08:38 PM
Sorry I just don't believe this is the mark of the beast...if it is, then only the rich will have the ablity to choose...the poor will be saved though because they have no need of a chip since they have no money.

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day. It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day.

Even if poverty may be lessening for the world as a whole, it continues to be an enormous problem:

One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes. That's 270 million people since 1990, the majority women and children, roughly equal to the population of the US.
Every year nearly 11 million children die before their fifth birthday.
800 million people go to bed hungry every day.
The three richest people in the world control more wealth than all 600 million people living in the world's poorest countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Do you have any idea of the huge amount of money it would take to tag everyone in this world with any kind of mark? And so many do live in isloated areas of the world...in jungles, on mountains...in deep valleys, on islands...by the time they got to everyone which would take a massive amount of manpower and money, so many new babies would be born and several years old they would have to start all over again.

There ARE alot of people that live on the land, that hunt their food, drink from rivers....they have no idea what money is, or credit cards, or anything of the sorts....why would they care about an ID card? If people would just use some common sense they would see this just is not fesable so we need to take a new look at those passages in the bible...
__________________
http://childrenofthedumps.com/

http://vitw.org/archives/756

Truly if our salvation comes down to taking the mark (getting a chip, or ID card) then the poor have a free ticket to Heaven ...and that isn't bibical. I would like to see a real news link that says this is all true, not a religious site saying this by the way.

God bless
Do you have any idea what the poverty level is in this country?

The Department of Health and Human Services states, "About 3.6 million elderly persons (10.2%) were below the poverty level in 2003. Another 2.3 million or 6.7% of the elderly were classified as "near-poor" (income between the poverty level and 125% of this level). ”
According to the above statistics, you have a better chance of living in poverty after the age of 65 than you do of winning the lottery; however, even with those statistics does it really hit home without seeing the dollar amount? What is the poverty level anyway?
The 2005 Poverty Guidelines for the 48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia state that the poverty threshholds are as follows:

Number of Persons in Household
Poverty Guidelines
1………………………………… $9,570.
2………………………………… 12,830.
3………………………………… 16,090.
4………………………………… 19,350.

And stating the World Bank poverty guidelines doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. All of those charities that feed the hungry in foriegn countries are actually going to become the bait for the mark.

If they want to continue to recieve aid, or AIDs meds, all they have to do is command them to line up to recieve it and there are a lot of ignorant people over there. They don't know what's up.

This is the precursor, not the actual mark and it won't be long before the real thing comes along.

And that doesn't include the number of people that use food pantries...I've got those statistics too, gotta dig them up. It used to be that the majority of people who used food pantries were minorities. That's not the case any longer. Now, it's non-hispanic whites!

possumliving
Jan 7th 2007, 08:42 PM
We can't even control illegal immigrants gettng into this country or suicide bombers getting on airplanes. Its a lot like gun control - what you will end up with is only the criminals with any freedom and anonymnity. Its like any theory, it only sounds like a good plan until you try to get it to work with human beings. We are not cattle. No we are far too inventive in our sin to not corrupt it into something else. And corrupt it we will. Only those who underestimate the sinfulness of the human heart could even entertain that such ideas would have any "good" purpose.
In case you haven't heard....

They are going to require Visas/Passports to travel between Mexico, the US and Canada. That was on the news too.

possumliving
Jan 7th 2007, 08:54 PM
But could you please tell me then what God meant when He said, with crystal clarity, that both the rich and the poor would be required to take the mark in order to buy and sell?

I understand you think this happened back in 70 AD, but for a moment pretend it did not and explain to me then the trends toward this and how in light of what God said, which I mentioned above, it will not be so?

Could it be that what you think is based not alone on what you believe and reason and know but also on what you do not know? Some piece of information you do not have that would change your thinking? That your opinion is not what guides either sat*n or those that would bring this about? Is there possibly more out there that you are not aware of and will not be prevented merely because you do not see how it could be?

As I've been saying for well over a year now, watch the trends.

And I'm not trying to argue this with you MG as we've been through this before, but I'd like you to think beyond what is in front of you and only what you see.

As for the right forearm, it qualifies as the right hand.

You have presented some points that would seem to say, such a thing cannot be because of this or that problem. And yet you are on the internet, risking everyday your computer from a virus and so on. Prolems with being on the interent? You bet and yet it cannot grow fast enough. To suggest that some problems might exist and that is proof it cannot ever be is ignoring historical fact of many things. Computers are tremendous security risks in business and government. The only safe solution is not to have them, and yet we do. The problems are quite simply not a problem, a deterrent nor something that will stop what is coming. Do you own a credit card or perhaps a debit card? Any problems with those? YOu bet and yet we have and use them. Problems with your SS#? Identity theft is rampant and growing and yet we have them. Suggested problems as ebing a deterrent are ignoring reality, history and the trend that cannot be stopped.

Just keep an eye open for the trends; it costs you nothing to be aware and look beyond the obvious and recognize what is coming.

Finally, the ID card is not the mark, but it is my belief that the RFID chip implant will be. Time will reveal if this is so or not. The process will be one that is initially voluntary I think, but soon enough it will become such that without it you cannot buy or sell. It might be interesting that the government won't have to push very hard at first for it since the businesses will require it as well. There are businesses out there that are looking for ways in which to sell to you without anything more than scanning you; not scanning your eye, a card, your fingerprint and so on but you - that little chip in you. Yes, I said there are in fact, even now, businesses that want to move you in this direction.

I see a lot of opinions on here, but how many I wonder actually have more than an opinion? What knowledge of RFID do you have? What knowledge of the businesses that are getting together over RFID do you have? Sometimes it takes more than mere opinion to make a matter true.
I understand where you are coming from. And what happens when a government tries to implement a plan and gets resistance halfway through their objective? They come up with something that is cheaper, easier more secure.

Like I said in my original post, I believe this thing is a precursor.

Walmart is already touting a New Store where you don't have to go through the register to pay. Pick up your newspaper, your bagel and coffee and you are scanned through.

All this on the news within 2 days. And I don't believe in coincidence. Then VISA keeps showing that commercial where the guy pays with cash and everything comes to a screeching halt and makes him look bad because of it.

They are conditioning people to think that cash is bad.

possumliving
Jan 7th 2007, 09:01 PM
Indeed it will be replaced by the chip as the card is too easily lost. We think here in America that such a thing cannot be, but most countries in this world do not hold to the same values we do, and it will eventually come here as well.

As man becomes more depraved, as in the days of Noah, man will become more accepting of such things. Additionally, man has already become completely conditioned to technology, and things are moving in this world at a pace it has never seen before and this pace is exponential.

I've said this before on here, but will repeat it again. There was an article of a store chain in Florida that was setting up a sysytem in its stores whereby a person could scan their finger to pay for the goods they'd purchased. No card - just your finger. The article ended by saying that the store chain eventually wanted to go to cashierless stores.

Now how many I wonder, reading what I just said about the article are thinking: ok, so big deal, they scan your finger. That isn't the mark!

You'd be right it isn't the mark. You'd also have missed the most important part of the article: the part where they said they eventually wanted to go to cashierless stores.

Now how many I wonder are actually taking the time to think what this means?

Here is what this means: You will have an implanted chip.

Really! Some must be saying this about now. Yes - for a fact.

Ask yourself how they can go about having cashierless stores? Only one way. First, understand that they are using RFID chips for the goods they sell. Now if they had no cashier, you simply load up your cart and walk right out. Sure the scanners at the door scanned everything you left with, but they didn't scan you! You didn't put your ginger in the scanner, and so you just stole whatever you wanted. Let's say you have a card to make the pruchase. It is the same as your finger - leave the card in the car, go in and leave with whatever you want.

No. They will scan you.

If you took the article at face value and didn't bother to think it through, you'd have missed the most important part of it: that final sentence. And the store isn't interested in whether there are security problems because they will be worked out just as the security problems had to be worked out with scanning your finger (did you think there were none?). They aren't interested in whether people will like it or not - businesses are moving in this direction, and they are meeting together and collaborating and they are planning; you will not have a choice.

So looking at how it is at this very moment and claiming today is proof for tomorrow and that since it is not so today it will not be so tomorrow is a terrible mistake and not one businesses or government are making.
LOL, they already have cashierless checkout lines at Walmart. I was surprised because we went to another county. They'd had it there for several months. You scan your own stuff, stick in your debit card and out pops a reciept just like at the gas pumps.

Steph

possumliving
Jan 7th 2007, 09:13 PM
what I don't get is this...why take the mark of the beast literally, but not the seal of God on believers?

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”


Revelation 9:4
They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

I am sealed right now on my forehead but see nothing there...because the seal is IN the mind. The right hand stands for actions...what we do, our actions always show our true beliefs...as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them...the fruits being actions...the mark isn't just about buying and selling...it always, always, include worshipping the beast too. One cannot happen without the other. A person cannot be marked without agreeing to worship the beast also in other words. Its what we worship using our mind and through our actions (hand).

Its very important to never seperate the mark from the worship...otherwise you get a misunderstanding of the scriptures and the scriptures never ever list the mark as a single thing without including the worship of the beast too...they always go together.



Revelation 13:15-17
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:8-10
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 16:2
[ First Bowl: Loathsome Sores ] So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So the question would be, is getting a national ID card or a chip going to include worshipping the beast? If not, then its not the mark of the beast.

They have to go together.

God bless
I disagree with you there Moonglow. Where in the world does the Bible say that we are sealed in our minds?

His seal is in our hearts and upon us.

2 Cor 1:22 [He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by] putting His seal upon us and giving us His [Holy] Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit {and} guarantee [of the fulfillment of His promise].

Eph 1:13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in {and} adhered to {and} relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

It is a spiritual seal and the mind has nothing to do with it.

On the otherhand, Satan always tries to produce in the physical what God does in the spiritual. That is why the focus on manifestations in the apostasy.

Rev 13:17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, Whoever pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast's] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized {and} overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders {and} performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted {or} permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage {and} gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns {and} blazes with brimstone.

possumliving
Jan 7th 2007, 09:34 PM
What a nice post - full of inuendo, outright false accusations, belittling and other such unnecessary things. And with that, I will take my leave of this thread. Thank you.
Please don't! Just because someone else hasn't had their eyes opened and they think it is a bunch of balogney doesn't make it true.

I agree with you. It is going to be physical and we are told to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

And being innocent as doves doesn't mean false accusations from puffed up people either.

Duane Morse
Jan 7th 2007, 10:09 PM
"Rev 13:18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666."

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

That is the KJV version, without the politically correct use of 'human' in the place of the word 'man'.
I dunno, it just seems wrong to me and I don't like it. Changes the inflections and such.

Anyways, my point here is this:
Everyone is looking for a particular man from this phrase, whose letters in his name add up to 666, or who is closely associated with something to do with that particular number.

Have you ever noticed the wording in other parts of the Bible concerning the descendants of a person?
Here is one:

De 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.


Well, I have said it before, and I guess I will have to point it out again.
We all are descendants of Adam.

So in us Adam is multiplied.

Right now the number of Adam is approximately:

6,568,341,936

- according to the U.S. Census Bureau's world population clock (which calculates the figure based on estimated births and deaths and such).


Very soon now it will reach 6,660,000,000.
666, with seven zero's after it.

Duane Morse
Jan 7th 2007, 10:15 PM
U.S. 300,929,065
World 6,568,344,845
22:13 GMT (EST+5) Jan 07, 2007

See how much the number has increased, just since I last posted a few minutes ago?

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/world.html

possumliving
Jan 7th 2007, 10:34 PM
U.S. 300,929,065
World 6,568,344,845
22:13 GMT (EST+5) Jan 07, 2007

See how much the number has increased, just since I last posted a few minutes ago?

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/world.html
Now that is one I haven't heard. But it is calculated. Wonder if when he is born they'll do like they do for the New Years babies?

But seriously, at the speed of which things are going and the fact that this Baby Boomer Generation started seeing all of these things fulfilled, I doubt very much that whoever the antichrist is, is still to be born. I think he is already alive.

Now I remember some time back when benny hinn took a group to Israel and whether it is the truth or not, I couldn't say because I don't trust him, but he said he spoke to one of the Rabbis and they believe that Messiah is already come but he isn't ready to be revealed yet. Hence, all the interest in rebuilding the Temple.

Steph

Duane Morse
Jan 7th 2007, 10:42 PM
Now that is one I haven't heard. But it is calculated. Wonder if when he is born they'll do like they do for the New Years babies?

But seriously, at the speed of which things are going and the fact that this Baby Boomer Generation started seeing all of these things fulfilled, I doubt very much that whoever the antichrist is, is still to be born. I think he is already alive.

Now I remember some time back when benny hinn took a group to Israel and whether it is the truth or not, I couldn't say because I don't trust him, but he said he spoke to one of the Rabbis and they believe that Messiah is already come but he isn't ready to be revealed yet. Hence, all the interest in rebuilding the Temple.

Steph
Did you miss the point entirely?

Do you think that I was saying the 'anti-Christ' is the beast and will be the 6,660,000,000th person born?

That is not what the scripture says, nor is it what I was saying.

The number of the beast - the beast (well, the first anyway) is Adam, and he is the man referred to in Revelation 13:18. His number is the number of his living descendants - the world's population.

moonglow
Jan 8th 2007, 02:13 AM
Do you have any idea what the poverty level is in this country?

The Department of Health and Human Services states, "About 3.6 million elderly persons (10.2%) were below the poverty level in 2003. Another 2.3 million or 6.7% of the elderly were classified as "near-poor" (income between the poverty level and 125% of this level). ”
According to the above statistics, you have a better chance of living in poverty after the age of 65 than you do of winning the lottery; however, even with those statistics does it really hit home without seeing the dollar amount? What is the poverty level anyway?
The 2005 Poverty Guidelines for the 48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia state that the poverty threshholds are as follows:

Number of Persons in Household
Poverty Guidelines
1………………………………… $9,570.
2………………………………… 12,830.
3………………………………… 16,090.
4………………………………… 19,350.

And stating the World Bank poverty guidelines doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. All of those charities that feed the hungry in foriegn countries are actually going to become the bait for the mark.

If they want to continue to recieve aid, or AIDs meds, all they have to do is command them to line up to recieve it and there are a lot of ignorant people over there. They don't know what's up.

This is the precursor, not the actual mark and it won't be long before the real thing comes along.

And that doesn't include the number of people that use food pantries...I've got those statistics too, gotta dig them up. It used to be that the majority of people who used food pantries were minorities. That's not the case any longer. Now, it's non-hispanic whites!

So in being ingorant and taking the mark in not knowing any better, God will damn them to hell? Is that really the message of the gospel? That is all a roll of the dice and chance as to whether you get saved or not? That just isn't the message of the gospel at all.

That isn't what Jesus taught and saying Revelation teaches something completely different would be a major contradiction in the bible...leaving us unable to trust it because two different messages...

No one's salvation is by chance...the Lord isn't that indifferent or uncaring to let millions go to hell out of ingorant over a mark...chip, whatever. That is why the chip AND worship of the beast always go together in scriptures...it has to be a conscious, willful choice.

God bless

moonglow
Jan 8th 2007, 02:31 AM
I disagree with you there Moonglow. Where in the world does the Bible say that we are sealed in our minds?

His seal is in our hearts and upon us.

On our foreheads also...which means mind:

Exodus 28:36-38: Priests of God wore a gold plate upon their forehead, symbolizing the redeemed man.

Exodus 13:9,16, Deuteronomy 6:6,8; 11:18: A mark upon the forehead and hand was a symbol of total obedience to God’s Law.

Solomon 8:6: A seal upon the heart and arm is symbolic of a love for someone.

Isaiah 49:16: God has graven His people on the palms of His hands as a sign that he would not forget them.

Ezekiel 9:4: A mark upon the forehead was indicative of their allegiance to the Lord in the midst of abomination.

2 Cor 1:22 [He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by] putting His seal upon us and giving us His [Holy] Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit {and} guarantee [of the fulfillment of His promise].

Eph 1:13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in {and} adhered to {and} relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

It is a spiritual seal and the mind has nothing to do with it.

On the otherhand, Satan always tries to produce in the physical what God does in the spiritual. That is why the focus on manifestations in the apostasy.

Can you give some examples here of what you mean...what has satan done physically to imitate what God has done spiritually? outside of Revelation that is for some examples on this. thanks.

Rev 13:17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, Whoever pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast's] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized {and} overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders {and} performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted {or} permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage {and} gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns {and} blazes with brimstone.



What difference does it make to say mind or heart? :confused

Doesn't change what I said...beside 'heart' in the bible does mean mind. Can the heart and mind feel two seperate things?

At any rate the bible does say God seals us on our foreheads:

Revelation 7

God’s People Will Be Preserved

1 Then I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds so they did not blow on the earth or the sea, or even on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel coming up from the east, carrying the seal of the living God. And he shouted to those four angels, who had been given power to harm land and sea, 3 “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Revelation 14:1
Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 22:4
And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads

I don't think you were understanding what I was saying anyway...being sealed in the forehead would be our minds...what is he point is having a seal on our forehead? The bible clearly says God puts the knowledge of Him in all of us...where would He put it? In our minds, in our heart of course.

God bless

Mograce2U
Jan 8th 2007, 02:31 AM
Now that is one I haven't heard. But it is calculated. Wonder if when he is born they'll do like they do for the New Years babies?

But seriously, at the speed of which things are going and the fact that this Baby Boomer Generation started seeing all of these things fulfilled, I doubt very much that whoever the antichrist is, is still to be born. I think he is already alive.

Now I remember some time back when benny hinn took a group to Israel and whether it is the truth or not, I couldn't say because I don't trust him, but he said he spoke to one of the Rabbis and they believe that Messiah is already come but he isn't ready to be revealed yet. Hence, all the interest in rebuilding the Temple.I wonder if Benny Hinn bothered to tell that Rabbi that Messiah has already come...and that is why they do not have a temple today. :hmm:

moonglow
Jan 8th 2007, 02:46 AM
U.S. 300,929,065
World 6,568,344,845
22:13 GMT (EST+5) Jan 07, 2007

See how much the number has increased, just since I last posted a few minutes ago?

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/world.html

I think that number was passed already...I like this popluation website better...it shows the numbers changing:

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop


The number of the beast - the beast (well, the first anyway) is Adam, and he is the man referred to in Revelation 13:18. His number is the number of his living descendants - the world's population.

I think I have heard of this before...but I don't remember the details of it....care to explain?

God bless

Duane Morse
Jan 8th 2007, 03:24 AM
I think that number was passed already...I like this popluation website better...it shows the numbers changing:

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop



I think I have heard of this before...but I don't remember the details of it....care to explain?

God bless
The thing is, with the population counters we are seeing a best guestimate and not the actual real-world numbers.

There is no way to get exact figures.

The Bible indicates that the mark of the beast will be implimented by the beast of Revelation 13:11, then goes on to say:

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In some manuscripts the number is 616, by the way.
And the phrase 'for it is the number of a man' is better translated 'for it is the number of man', from some things I have read.

The 'number of man' would be the total population at any given time.


This is what I said earlier:
"Have you ever noticed the wording in other parts of the Bible concerning the descendants of a person?
Here is one:

De 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude."


The one equals many, in the multiplication thereof.

All of us come from Adam, so Adam's number is equal to the world's population at any given time.

We (the entire human race), in other words, are the multitude of Adam.

And when it says to 'count the number of the beast', it could be indicating how many will be alive at the time the mark is implimented. It seems so to me, considering the context in which it is said.

possumliving
Jan 8th 2007, 04:47 AM
So in being ingorant and taking the mark in not knowing any better, God will damn them to hell? Is that really the message of the gospel? That is all a roll of the dice and chance as to whether you get saved or not? That just isn't the message of the gospel at all.

That isn't what Jesus taught and saying Revelation teaches something completely different would be a major contradiction in the bible...leaving us unable to trust it because two different messages...

No one's salvation is by chance...the Lord isn't that indifferent or uncaring to let millions go to hell out of ingorant over a mark...chip, whatever. That is why the chip AND worship of the beast always go together in scriptures...it has to be a conscious, willful choice.

God bless
Ignorant as in because they refused to believe in the Creator, they were blinded.

Rom 1:17 For in the Gospel a righteousness which God ascribes is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed through the way of faith that arouses to more faith]. As it is written, The man who through faith is just {and} upright shall live {and} shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For God's [holy] wrath {and} indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress {and} hinder the truth {and} make it inoperative.
Rom 1:19 For that which is known about God is evident to them {and} made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature {and} attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible {and} clearly discernible in {and} through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
Rom 1:21 Because when they knew {and} recognized Him as God, they did not honor {and} glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile {and} godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
Rom 1:23 And by them the glory and majesty {and} excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for {and} represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.

That's the Gospel. Esau isn't the only one, by any means, that will sell his soul.

Gen 25:33 Jacob said, Swear to me today [that you are selling it to me]; and he swore to [Jacob] and sold him his birthright.

Heb 12:16 That no one may become guilty of sexual vice, or become a profane (godless and sacrilegious) person as Esau did, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

And throughout all of Revelation we are told:

Rev 9:20 And the rest of humanity who were not killed by these plagues even then did not repent of [the worship of] the works of their [own] hands, so as to cease paying homage to the demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor move.

Rev 9:21 And they did not repent of their murders or their practice of magic (sorceries) or their sexual vice or their thefts.

Rev 16:9 People were severely burned (scorched) by the fiery heat, and they reviled {and} blasphemed the name of God, Who has control of these plagues, and they did not repent of their sins [felt no regret, contrition, and compunction for their waywardness, refusing to amend their ways] to give Him glory.

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their anguish and their ulcers (sores), and they did not deplore their wicked deeds {or} repent [for what they had done].

Now, I guarantee you that the Gospel has been told and there are people over there that God will speak to, "Don't take that, rather to be hungry then to sell your soul".

possumliving
Jan 8th 2007, 04:51 AM
The thing is, with the population counters we are seeing a best guestimate and not the actual real-world numbers.

There is no way to get exact figures.

The Bible indicates that the mark of the beast will be implimented by the beast of Revelation 13:11, then goes on to say:

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In some manuscripts the number is 616, by the way.
And the phrase 'for it is the number of a man' is better translated 'for it is the number of man', from some things I have read.

The 'number of man' would be the total population at any given time.


This is what I said earlier:
"Have you ever noticed the wording in other parts of the Bible concerning the descendants of a person?
Here is one:

De 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude."


The one equals many, in the multiplication thereof.

All of us come from Adam, so Adam's number is equal to the world's population at any given time.

We (the entire human race), in other words, are the multitude of Adam.

And when it says to 'count the number of the beast', it could be indicating how many will be alive at the time the mark is implimented. It seems so to me, considering the context in which it is said.
I'm sorry but that rational doesn't make a bit of sense to me. I'll stick with the number of a specific man. Although you do have the right to your own opinion, I don't see any Scriptural backing for it.

possumliving
Jan 8th 2007, 04:59 AM
What difference does it make to say mind or heart? :confused

Doesn't change what I said...beside 'heart' in the bible does mean mind. Can the heart and mind feel two seperate things?

At any rate the bible does say God seals us on our foreheads:

Revelation 7

God’s People Will Be Preserved

1 Then I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds so they did not blow on the earth or the sea, or even on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel coming up from the east, carrying the seal of the living God. And he shouted to those four angels, who had been given power to harm land and sea, 3 “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Revelation 14:1
Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 22:4
And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads

I don't think you were understanding what I was saying anyway...being sealed in the forehead would be our minds...what is he point is having a seal on our forehead? The bible clearly says God puts the knowledge of Him in all of us...where would He put it? In our minds, in our heart of course.

God bless
The mind doesn't feel, the heart does.

Also, in the Romans passage I pasted earlier, God writes on our consciences but that doesn't mean we are His or believe, just as the above passage shows.

A lot of people have head knowledge but never believe in their hearts. In otherwords it never makes it to faith.

Salvation isn't about head knowledge but by experiental knowledge.

Luke 11:52 Woe to you, lawyers (experts in the Mosaic Law)! For you have taken away the key to knowledge; you did not go in yourselves, and you hindered {and} prevented those who were entering.

I did a study on the above passage once and was surprised. When I saw knowledge there I assumed at first it meant the head knowledge, but when I went to the Greek it was referring to knowledge based upon experience. So they were guilty of keeping them from taking that step in faith, not from taking away common knowledge.

Steph

quiet dove
Jan 8th 2007, 05:25 AM
All this on the news within 2 days. And I don't believe in coincidence. Then VISA keeps showing that commercial where the guy pays with cash and everything comes to a screeching halt and makes him look bad because of it.

They are conditioning people to think that cash is bad.

I thought the same thing when I saw this commercial.

Duane Morse
Jan 8th 2007, 05:27 AM
I'm sorry but that rational doesn't make a bit of sense to me. I'll stick with the number of a specific man. Although you do have the right to your own opinion, I don't see any Scriptural backing for it.
Well, since there is no scriptural backing for identifying the 'man' in that verse, and that verse is the only mention of it, I guess all of our opinions are but pure speculation.

But, I did show scripture that indicates that a man's number is reflected in the number of his descendants.
That, and the fact that Adam represents both a single individual and the race as a whole, lends more credence to my view (I think) than looking for an individual whose name, when converted to a numerical value, equals 666.

daughter
Jan 8th 2007, 08:44 AM
daughter, I respect you and am glad you are here with us...I truly am. But I don't know if you have been exposed to other views regarding the end times or not. Not everyone believes there will be a seven year tribulation...not everyone believes their will be a rapture....most that post about the mark of the beast actually believe they will be raptured before anything bad starts happening, so I honestly don't know why they worry about the mark so much. Some think the rapture happens half way through the tribulation...some at the end....but there are those of us that don't buy any seven year tribulation at all...and that most of Revelation is in the past...that it was meant for the First Century Christian who went through some truly horrible things...and were told to worship Nero who ruled Rome then or die...they had to go into hiding too...buying and selling openly was very difficult because they did not bow to his government.
Hiya. I understand that a lot of Revelations is past, and that to the first century Christian Nero fit the bill as Man of perdition etc. It's been some years since I studied classical history, but I do know what hard times they were for believers. And I know that when it comes to the physical mark on the hand/forehead it could be metaphorical - for example, the hand signifies action, what people do, and the forehead signifies what people think. So perhaps someone sealed with the mark of the beast is someone who thinks and does evil, and prospers as a result. I also know that Orthodox Jews wear the word of God wrapped onto their hands and foreheads as part of prayer, to signify righteousness in thought and deed - and John was a Jew, so he could have been speaking metaphorically.

But I do also wonder about a literal fulfillment of these prophecies, given that we now literally have the technology to have some kind of mark without which no-one can buy or sell. When John was writing it was not something that anyone could have imagined literally being true... Yet now here we are talking about it.

As for the time scale, yes - I understand that we might have misjudged prophecy. Maybe it won't be seven years. But I do think there is an end coming, a literal return of Jesus, and a literal kingdom of God, which will last an age before the elements of this world are burned up.

When I first read the Bible I was RC, and wasn't born again. At that point I didn't believe in a literal return of Jesus (though of course I recited it in the Creed) and when He said we did not know the hour of His coming, I simply thought it meant we didn't know the hours when we would die.

Since becoming Christian I do take the Bible literally in a way I used to laugh at others about. I believe in the creation account, the miracles (or signs as John calls them) the Resurrection, and am much more inclined to take Revelations literally than before.

I understand the churches John was writing to are literal churches, as well as possibly representing the ages of churches since then.

But if I am utterly wrong and we aren't raptured away before antichrist turns up, then I won't be upset - I'll just buckle myself in for a rough ride, and keep praying for the strength to witness.

And I agree, there is no point speculating about who AC is - Scripture says we won't know until we know... and that isn't yet!

But it would surely be helpful if we are "snatched away" to leave clues for those left when we are gone. If the Rapture does happen before the Tribulation, then what a big clue that will be to those remaining. I'd like to think that prophecy, as it is fulfilled, is very obvious, so that those truly seeking can see that God is in charge.

Anyway, my point is, I don't want to be dogmatic about what is coming up. I don't know! I can speculate, but it is in God's hands, and I am not a very "old" Christian, only about six months old, and I imagine over the rest of my life I will continue to find amazing insights in the scriptures. I might well laugh at my naivity later on. But I'll certainly take scripture seriously, keep reading and praying about it, and learn from any discussions with other Bible believing Christians.

Hope this helps.

moonglow
Jan 9th 2007, 09:07 PM
sorry its taken me so long to get back to respond...been very busy the last few days.


Ignorant as in because they refused to believe in the Creator, they were blinded.

Rom 1:17 For in the Gospel a righteousness which God ascribes is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed through the way of faith that arouses to more faith]. As it is written, The man who through faith is just {and} upright shall live {and} shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For God's [holy] wrath {and} indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress {and} hinder the truth {and} make it inoperative.
Rom 1:19 For that which is known about God is evident to them {and} made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature {and} attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible {and} clearly discernible in {and} through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
Rom 1:21 Because when they knew {and} recognized Him as God, they did not honor {and} glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile {and} godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
Rom 1:23 And by them the glory and majesty {and} excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for {and} represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.

That's the Gospel. Esau isn't the only one, by any means, that will sell his soul.

Gen 25:33 Jacob said, Swear to me today [that you are selling it to me]; and he swore to [Jacob] and sold him his birthright.

Heb 12:16 That no one may become guilty of sexual vice, or become a profane (godless and sacrilegious) person as Esau did, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

And throughout all of Revelation we are told:

Rev 9:20 And the rest of humanity who were not killed by these plagues even then did not repent of [the worship of] the works of their [own] hands, so as to cease paying homage to the demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor move.

Rev 9:21 And they did not repent of their murders or their practice of magic (sorceries) or their sexual vice or their thefts.

Rev 16:9 People were severely burned (scorched) by the fiery heat, and they reviled {and} blasphemed the name of God, Who has control of these plagues, and they did not repent of their sins [felt no regret, contrition, and compunction for their waywardness, refusing to amend their ways] to give Him glory.

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their anguish and their ulcers (sores), and they did not deplore their wicked deeds {or} repent [for what they had done].

Now, I guarantee you that the Gospel has been told and there are people over there that God will speak to, "Don't take that, rather to be hungry then to sell your soul".

The gospel doesn't say a thing about whether to take a chip implant let alone a mark though...Revelation is not part of the gospel message though. So while they may believe in Jesus...doesn't mean they would know a thing about the mark UNLESS they were told it included worshipping the beast...then I could see many refusing it. This is why the mark is never mentioned without including worship of the beast.

God bless

moonglow
Jan 9th 2007, 09:26 PM
The mind doesn't feel, the heart does.

The heart is just an organ...like the kidney or bladder. The heart pumps blood..it cannot think, nor feel though. When we use the word 'heart'...as in I 'feel it in my heart' we do not literally mean the heart beating in our chest. Only feelings, and thoughts come from the mind which is the brain.

Also, in the Romans passage I pasted earlier, God writes on our consciences but that doesn't mean we are His or believe, just as the above passage shows.

A lot of people have head knowledge but never believe in their hearts. In otherwords it never makes it to faith.

True....but still faith cannot literally be in the heart...as I pointed out. What they battle is between knowledge and their emotions...which goes with the expression...'my heart and mind are at odds with this'.

Salvation isn't about head knowledge but by experiental knowledge.

Luke 11:52 Woe to you, lawyers (experts in the Mosaic Law)! For you have taken away the key to knowledge; you did not go in yourselves, and you hindered {and} prevented those who were entering.

I did a study on the above passage once and was surprised. When I saw knowledge there I assumed at first it meant the head knowledge, but when I went to the Greek it was referring to knowledge based upon experience. So they were guilty of keeping them from taking that step in faith, not from taking away common knowledge.

Steph

I understand what you are saying...all I said was what the bible said in Revelation...God seals the foreheads of those believers in Revelation. You said no God seals the heart. But I posted scriptures plainly saying the forehead...then we got side tracked on what heart and mind meant.

All I wanted to know was about the comment you made saying satan has always imitated what God does spiritually with literal things...I wanted to know if you could post scriptures on that outside of Revelation. Thanks.

God bless

moonglow
Jan 9th 2007, 09:56 PM
The thing is, with the population counters we are seeing a best guestimate and not the actual real-world numbers.

There is no way to get exact figures.

The Bible indicates that the mark of the beast will be implimented by the beast of Revelation 13:11, then goes on to say:

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In some manuscripts the number is 616, by the way.
And the phrase 'for it is the number of a man' is better translated 'for it is the number of man', from some things I have read.

The 'number of man' would be the total population at any given time.


This is what I said earlier:
"Have you ever noticed the wording in other parts of the Bible concerning the descendants of a person?
Here is one:

De 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude."


The one equals many, in the multiplication thereof.

All of us come from Adam, so Adam's number is equal to the world's population at any given time.

We (the entire human race), in other words, are the multitude of Adam.

And when it says to 'count the number of the beast', it could be indicating how many will be alive at the time the mark is implimented. It seems so to me, considering the context in which it is said.

My understanding is 666 was written in greek and 616 was in Hebrew (or switch those around, I always get them mixed up...lol) Both lanuages number each of the letters in their alphabets....this is why John wrote the name in numbers, those the spoke Hebrew...anyone knowing their common lanuage would quickly figure out the name of the man. The Roman's though, who were hunting the Christians would not understand their numbering system at all...and John or anyone saying the beast was Nero would have been instantly killed...Nero was so parnoid of plots against him anyway he would have anyone killed that he thought was a threat. So John wrote Revelations in a way that only the Jews and Hebrews would understand it...but not their enemy, the Romans.

The numbers in the bible mean something yes: six alone, is the number of man. Man was created on the sixth day. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are the number seven...the number of perfection.

It seems to me if the number of descents had something to do with 666 would we have hit that in Genesis...nothing is said about alot of zero's after the 666...

Anyway for those interested in knowing how the name Nero adds up to 666, this is taken from the book, "The Last Disciple" which is fiction based on historical facts. In this part of the book a Roman slave hunter named Damian has gotten ahold part of the scroll of Revelation that John wrote, to see if there was any threats in it against Nero, who was ruling at the time. He first took it to a Jew named Darda who got scared once he figured out what the numbers meant..afraid of being killed so wouldn't give him the information...then Damian takes it to another man named Azariah to explain who the beast is.

Damian, "Tell me about a certain matter in the letter. In one way the author of the letter seems to identify him clearly. And in another, not clearly. Simply put, who is the Beast?"

Azariah's reaction was much different than Darda's had been a day earlier. "'Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the Beast,'" Azarah said, smiling as he quoted from the letter. He wiped a greasy finger against his leg. "That is what you want to know for the exorbitant price you offer?"

"Yes."

"Dardad didn't want to speak about it, did he?" Again, Azarah made it sound like a statement, not a question.

If Damian had needed a reminder about the cleverness of the man opposite him, here was a plain one.

Azariah continued. "Darda fears the authorites much more that I do. Of course, they don't owe him as much money as they owe me. Unlike him, I'm not afraid that discussing it will be seen as treason."

Again, another hint of the danger of the letter. Somehow Darda had decided that the letter spoke against the emperor, an offense punishable by immediate death. But Damian had given the number of the Beast much consideration and though otherwise. "How could it possibly be treason?" Damian asked. "The number of the Beast is not given by Nero's name."

"No?" Azariah smiled indulgently. "Pretend I know nothing about gematria. Pretend I am a little boy, just learning to read."

"Every letter in our alphabet corresponds to a number," Damian said with a touch of impatience, because the use of gematria to convert words and names into numbers was indeed something every literate person understood from the first days of formal education. "The first ten letters are the numbers 1 through 10, the eleventh letter represents 20, the twelfth letter 30, and so on until 100. The twentieth letter is 200, and each new letter represents an additional hundred."

Mock applause from Azariah. "Thus," Azariah said, "the famous verse of poetry that Nero hates: 'Count the numberical values of the letters in Nero's name, and in murder his own mother, and you will find their sum is the same.'"

Damian nodded. In Greek, the numbers of all the letters in Nero's name totaled 1,005. As did the numbers in the phrase murder his own mother. It was a clever verse and a clever piece of gematria, reflecting the widespread knowledge that indeed Nero had killed his mother, Agrippina. The fact that the verse appeared everywhere in public places and was widely understood for its slyness also relected the univeral use and acceptance of gematria.

"So you are puzzled about the reference to the number 666."

"Yes," Damian said. "Of course."

"To the Jewish people," Azariah said, "it is more than a number. It, like much of the rest of the letter, is also a symblol For the Hebrews, it is a fearful sign of a king and a kingdom in the image of the Dragon...the fallen angel who opposes God."

Azariah continued, obviously aware of Damian's lack of comprehension. "To the Hebrews, 6 is a number of incompleteness, one short of 7, which stands for completeness. The triple 6 that much more so. But it's fascinating number and mathematically almost a riddle in and of itself, a code of multiple variations. I could spend hours expounding on this and believe me, I have given the number much thought since studying the letter for you."

Azariah had an empty scroll beside him. He picked it up and made some quick marking. (I can't show you this but it looks like a triangle filled with stars).

"This, as you know, is a triangular, " Azariah said. "A simple example. It's the traingular 21, which fourms two triangles with an inner triangle of 6 and an outer of 15, in a total of 6 lines. As the triangular 21, the total number of 21 is the sum of all the numbers from 1 to 6. If you extend this pattern all the way out to 36 lines, adding up all the numbers from 1 to 36, you fourm the triangular 666. I won't bore you with the calculations, trust me when I say that the triangle 666 is the 'fulfillment' of 105, a 12 fold triangle with the periphery of 30 x 3 1/2, a reckoning that also adds up to the fatally limited reign of 1,260 days that the letter prophesies for the Beast. Incredible code. Astounding, actually."

Azariah shook his head in awe. "It's even errie, epseically when you understand the name of the Beast." Damian was impressed at the rabbi's reaction of wonder and admiration, yet was too impatient to want more discussion of the matter. "I have far less interest in your calculations than in the name of the Beast," Damina said.

"But these numerical relationships are very significant," Azariah portested, "You came to me because..."

"The name of the Beast, " Damian interrupted. "That's what's imporant to me. It seems to me that John is plainly saying that I should be able to identify the Beast by its number. Except I can't."

"You are not Herbew." Azariah gave Damian a broad grin. "Which, if course, is why you came to me."

"You are saying you have the answer?"

"It is a plain to me as it would be to any other Jew reading it."

"Let me remind you I'm paying god money for that answer," Damian said, a trifle impatient. "Give me the name of the Beast."

"Not so fast. " Azariah was obviously enjoying this. "Let's talk more about the Beast. I must repeat how ingeniously the author accomplishes so much in so little writing. He says one thing and it can mean three things. The Beast, for example. To our people, in one sense the Beast refers to the Roman Empire, but in another sense, as given by the number 666, it is also about an individual emperor. Here...."

Azariah took the letter from Damian, unscrolled it, and scannned it. He paused, searched for a specific portion, found it and took a breath before reading it as if he were preaching in a synagogue. "'Now understand this: The seven heads of the east represent seven kings. Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief. The scarlet beast that was alive and then died is the eighth king. He is like the other seven, and he, too, will go to his doom.'"

Azariah looked up. "Tell me without giving it much thought. What numbers are significant and why?" Damian did as instructed, "'Seven hills,' Rome. That is very obvious. I understood it the frist time I read the letter, as would anybody in the world. "Five kings have already fallen; the sixth now reigns'? Any child who knows Roman history will answer that." He ticked off on his fingers as he named the emperors in succession. "Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and now Nero."

Azariah nodded. "Stictly speaking, Julis Caesar did not allow himself to be called emperor, but he was a de facto emperor and everyone since has referred to him as one. So, yes it is an obvious reference to the frist six emperors after the fall of the Republic."

"So..." Damian spoke more slowely as he tried to think it through. "'The seventh is yet to come'. The next emperor? Brief reign? Then the eighth who will go to his doom?"

"One could easily read into that prediction of a rapid succession of emperors. "Doom suggest unnatural deaths."
(skipping down)

"I would say that John is wrting this letter to give comfort to all the followers of Jesus during this time persecution and tribulation. He is saying it will not continue indefinitely, and he is promising great rewards to those who persevere."

"Tribulation?"

"The one that is very obvious to all Roman and Christians. It began shortly after the Great Fire, when Nero laid blame for it on the Christians, and continues with their horrible public executions."

"There is an ending to the Tribulation." Damian recalled what he'd read in the letter. "An ending that happens because the Beast dies. And then the unthinkable. Civil war." Except for one thing. The Beast in the letter could not be Nero. So Nero would have nothing in this letter to fear.

"I have tried gematria with all the names of rulers I know," Damian said. "The number 666 does not give me a beast I would recognize. And certainly not Nero."

"It doesn't?" Azariah smiled, than wrote a vertical column of letters on the scroll. "Look, here is the Herbrew alphabet. And here..." he stketched a second column besides the first..."the Greek alphabet. Simple, yes?"

"All right."

"The first ten letters of both alphabets correspond to the first ten numbers, 1 through 10. But the second ten correspond to the next ten tens."

"So iota, the tenth Greek letter, is 10, but the eleventh, kappa, is 10."

"Good. And the third ten letters..."

"Are hundreds, of course, Damain said, impatient. "I understand that Herbrew gematria uses the same principles as Greek. But John's letter was written in Greek so why discuss...?"

"Because the writer expects much of his audience to be Hebrew," Azriah said, obviously anticipating Damina's objections. "And he knows they will apply gematria accordingly."

Azariah took the scroll and etched out a few more letters. "As a Roman, you cannot be blamed for not knowing that Hebrew does not use vowels. This is how we spell Nero Caesar." Nr Csr.

"Six hundred and sixty-six," Damian said after a brief calculation. "Nero is the beast!"




God bless

Mograce2U
Jan 10th 2007, 01:33 AM
All I wanted to know was about the comment you made saying satan has always imitated what God does spiritually with literal things...I wanted to know if you could post scriptures on that outside of Revelation. Thanks. I think she may be thinking of this one:

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

moonglow
Jan 10th 2007, 03:33 AM
I think she may be thinking of this one:

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I don't think so...how is what Peter did satan imitating God in the literal sense?

God bless

possumliving
Jan 10th 2007, 12:51 PM
I thought the same thing when I saw this commercial.
I had a sister in Christ over the other night...actually til about 3 am. We were discussing this National ID thingy and some other end times stuff and she was the one that made mention of the commercial.

She said it made her angry that they were trying to brainwash people.

Personally, I think it would be a nice quiet protest for everyone here to start using either cash or check only. Pass that on! See what happens with it, LOL!

Steph

possumliving
Jan 10th 2007, 12:59 PM
I understand what you are saying...all I said was what the bible said in Revelation...God seals the foreheads of those believers in Revelation. You said no God seals the heart. But I posted scriptures plainly saying the forehead...then we got side tracked on what heart and mind meant.

All I wanted to know was about the comment you made saying satan has always imitated what God does spiritually with literal things...I wanted to know if you could post scriptures on that outside of Revelation. Thanks.

God bless
I believe was I was disagreeing with MG, was that God didn't put His seal on our minds.

Here ya go!

2 Thess 2:9 The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity {and} working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs {and} delusive marvels--[all of them] lying wonders--

Have you ever seen a majician? They are almost all slights of hand and mass hypnosis.

Mograce2U
Jan 10th 2007, 02:55 PM
I don't think so...how is what Peter did satan imitating God in the literal sense?What Peter said to Jesus sounds a lot like what the serpent said to Eve: "thou shalt not surely die". The devil appeals to our senses and through our fear of death. To our senses comes the things we know as literally real. And because fear affects our thoughts, our motivation is affected. And lest we forget sin, he is also able to stimulate our self-centered desires thru the same avenues. These are the carnal things about man that the devil concerns himself with.

So while an RFID chip may very well be in our future and a tool of the devil; I do not think that constitutes the mark that scripture is speaking about. Like you said, it is tied to worship of the beast. This makes it a spiritual matter of the heart. What is it that moves our heart away from trust in God? The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. The worldly things the devil focuses upon. (1 John 2:16)

moonglow
Jan 10th 2007, 03:39 PM
I had a sister in Christ over the other night...actually til about 3 am. We were discussing this National ID thingy and some other end times stuff and she was the one that made mention of the commercial.

She said it made her angry that they were trying to brainwash people.

Personally, I think it would be a nice quiet protest for everyone here to start using either cash or check only. Pass that on! See what happens with it, LOL!

Steph

I know the commerical you are talking about and I don't like it either...for one thing everytime you use a debit card you get charged a fee (at least on some of them)...and why would anyone want to use their credit card to get a fast food meal? It bothered me too, but the fact is the only ones being given this 'suggestion' (I wouldn't call it brain washing), is those that have money...the poor again are excluded...especially the thousands living in dumps. They don't have TV's to see this stuff, let alone money to buy any fast foods...plus no fast foods where they live either anyway...there 'fast food' is garbage in the dumps.

Every time I walk into one of our American grocery stores I can't help but think of those straving to death in other countries...if I could transport them to where I was...what would they think seeing a huge store filled with food? Something they cannot even image....I think they would see it and either faint, or think they died and went to Heaven! For real! To them it would be Heaven....

So many have watched their own children strave to death, while straving themselves...we get stuck on things like these commericals and the 'chip' because we don't see out of our own country. We assume everyone lives like we do...yet 80% of the world's population don't have beds to sleep on...they sleep on the floor, or on mats on the floor. They live with stravation and disease and lack of clean water...they live in fear of someone breaking into their huts, or tents or shacks and dragging them off to fight in some war, or making them slaves...or just beating, raping and killing them. For them everyday is just another day to survive. If they could see the things we discuss on here, on our TV's on our radio's they would probably think we were all nuts! If they could even understand these things...these TV's, radios and computers...And wonder why we thought such things were even important...they could not relate.

They don't have cars, they walk or ride on donkeys, camels, pulled carts...they could not even begin to understand our world at all. In that book White Man Walking..where a business man walks across part of Africa, there is a picture of a five year old girl carrying a strap of bamboo sticks. She already has callous' on her hands. She wouldn't know what a computer was, a TV, a car...she only knows work, and hunger and fear. What would a chip mean to her? What could she use it for? nothing. There are no stores, or banks...not even a school for her to go too. The chip only means something to those like us...for millions in the world it would be useless and mean nothing and not needed...they couldn't begin to understand it. There are no scanner in these places to scan their chip to buy anything, cause their is nothing to buy and no money to buy it with.

AID doesn't get into alot of these parts of the world because its too dangerous due to the fighting going on. They die by the thousands everyday...for many Africa Christians they are being slaughters by muslims groups and its been going on for years. For them the tribulation is here and been here...been going on for I think 20 years is the last I heard. Men are being nailed to crosses, women raped, children beated...they are forced to take muslims names and forced to worship Allah. For them, the last thing they are worried about is a 'chip'.

http://www.spcm.org/Journal/spip.php?article5325

At Least 55,000 Christians Are Killed for their Faith Every Year

http://allafrica.com/stories/200701070160.html
Uganda: Christianity Under Attack

Christians are arrested, tortured, thrown out of their homes or executed in countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Bhutan and Afghanistan.

In Indonesia, hundreds of Christians have been killed in the last five years. The Jammah Islamiah and Laskar Jihad groups of militant Muslims have publicly declared 'Fourth Generation Warfare" against the Indonesia Christians.

They daily recruit Muslims to eradicate the 'infidels' from their land. When the Indonesian government invaded East Timor in 1999, churches were targeted, many Christians tortured and others killed.

Christians in Vietnam are arrested and some are executed if they refuse to renounce their faith.

God bless

possumliving
Jan 13th 2007, 05:20 AM
Come on Moonglow, you can't tell me that you aren't aware of the fact that most of the debit cards are run as credit when at the checkout line are you?

We're poor but you almost have to have a checking account in order to cash a check or pay bills these days.

Our check card is actually run as credit and they don't charge us a fee to use it, unless we are at an atm machine of another bank.

possumliving
Jan 13th 2007, 05:21 AM
Okay, then if it is an invisible, spiritual mark please explain to me how that is going to stop anybody from buying or selling???? Satan is not omnipresent and the Antichrist isn't either. Since he can't be everywhere at once, the mark has to be physical and manmade.

Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast rising up out of the land [itself]; he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke (roared) like a dragon.
Rev 13:12 He exerts all the power {and} right of control of the former beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell upon it to exalt {and} deify the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, {and} to worship him.
Rev 13:13 He performs great signs (startling miracles), even making fire fall from the sky to the earth in men's sight.
Rev 13:14 And because of the signs (miracles) which he is allowed to perform in the presence of the [first] beast, he deceives those who inhabit the earth, commanding them to erect a statue (an image) in the likeness of the beast who was wounded by the [small] sword and still lived.
Rev 13:15 And he is permitted [also] to impart the breath of life into the beast's image, so that the statue of the beast could actually talk and cause to be put to death those who would not bow down {and} worship the image of the beast.
Rev 13:16 Also he compels all [alike], both small and great, both the rich and the poor, both free and slave, to be marked with an inscription [stamped] on their right hands or on their foreheads,
Rev 13:17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666.


Well there goes most of your arguments. Imagining away Scripture or trying to reword it won't work.

The image of the beast that can actually talk and can cause people to be put to death now I don't know of any image that can have life, has the ability to speak and has the ability to tell whether someone has an identifying mark except for artificial intelligence or some kind of computer.


Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a mighty voice, Whoever pays homage to the beast and his statue and permits the [beast's] stamp (mark, inscription) to be put on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God's indignation {and} wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 16:2 So the first [angel] went and emptied his bowl on the earth, and foul and painful ulcers (sores) came on the people who were marked with the stamp of the beast and who did homage to his image.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized {and} overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders {and} performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted {or} permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage {and} gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns {and} blazes with brimstone.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges {and} to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark {or} permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.


It says what it says. And whether or not anybody over in Africa, that happens to live on the floor of a hut needs a chip is a good question because if you have nothing, no money, no job and no grocery store, I doubt very much it would be required of you because you aren't going to be buying and selling.

But take all the industrialized nations and see what would happen if they were immediately cut off from their food supplies. Then you would see devastation.

And for so many of the Christians in this nation who stick their heads in the sand they haven't even seen the connection between the NAIS and the National ID.

Famine can be orchestrated here just like it was during Hitlers time and others.

?All food and livestock were expropriated from the rural population. [B]““Famine was quite deliberately employed as an instrument of national policy , as the last
means of breaking the resistance of the peasantry to the new system where they are divorced from personal ownership of the land and obligated to work
on the conditions which the state may demand from them...””——William H. Chamberlin, British correspondent.

"I saw ravages of the famine of 1932-1933," wrote Arthur Koestler. "Hordes of families in rags begging at the railway stations, the women lifting up to
the compartment windows their starving brats, which, with drumstick limbs, big cadaverous heads and puffed bellies, looked like embryos out of alcohol
bottles."
In the spring of 1933, at the height of the famine, 25,000 died each day. Gleaning the fields was a counterrevolutionary crime for which thousands
were sent to Siberia. Hunger led to suicide, and for some, driven insane by hunger, cannibalism - even incidents of parents eating their children. While
Ukraine starved to death, Stalin industrialized agriculture and exported its grain and butter.
As much as 50 percent of the rural population vanished, swept from the land into the gulag or the grave.

And that is what several of the governments are getting ready to do. What do you think all of this homegrown terrorist attacks on our food supply have been but an attempt to condition people to accept total control in exchange for security?

And if people don't wake up they aren't going to be able to stand.

If God won't keep the African Christians and the Christians of the 1st Century from being tortured for their faith, do you honestly think that we are more deserving than they? That we should exempted from being tried for our Faith in Jesus Christ?

I think not!

Matt 10:17 Be on guard against men [whose way or nature is to act in opposition to God]; for they will deliver you up to councils and flog you in their synagogues,
Matt 10:18 And you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a witness to bear testimony before them and to the Gentiles (the nations).
Matt 10:19 But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious about how {or} what you are to speak; for what you are to say will be given you in that very hour {and} moment,
Matt 10:20 For it is not you who are speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Matt 10:21 Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children will take a stand against their parents and will have them put to death.
Matt 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake, but he who perseveres {and} endures to the end will be saved [from spiritual disease and death in the world to come].
Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town [that is, pursue you in a manner that would injure you and cause you to suffer because of your belief], flee to another town; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matt 10:24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a servant {or} slave above his master.
Matt 10:25 It is sufficient for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant {or} slave like his master. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub [master of the dwelling], how much more will they speak evil of those of His household. [II Kings 1:2.]
Matt 10:26 So have no fear of them; for nothing is concealed that will not be revealed, or kept secret that will not become known.
Matt 10:27 What I say to you in the dark, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered in the ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
Matt 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).


Matt 10:36 And a man's foes will be they of his own household.

Matt 13:30 Let them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will say to the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind it in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my granary.

Matt 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one,
Matt 13:39 And the enemy who sowed it is the devil. The harvest is the close {and} consummation of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Matt 13:40 Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age.

1 Cor 4:5 So do not make any hasty {or} premature judgments before the time when the Lord comes [again], for He will both bring to light the secret things that are [now hidden] in darkness and disclose {and} expose the [secret] aims (motives and purposes) of hearts. Then every man will receive his [due] commendation from God.
1 Cor 4:6 Now I have applied all this [about parties and factions] to myself and Apollos for your sakes, brethren, so that from what I have said of us [as illustrations], you may learn [to think of men in accordance with Scripture and] not to go beyond that which is written, that none of you may be puffed up {and} inflated with pride {and} boast in favor of one [minister and teacher] against another.


2 Tim 3:1 BUT UNDERSTAND this, that in the last days will come (set in) perilous times of great stress {and} trouble [hard to deal with and hard to bear].
2 Tim 3:2 For people will be lovers of self {and} [utterly] self-centered, lovers of money {and} aroused by an inordinate [greedy] desire for wealth, proud {and} arrogant {and} contemptuous boasters. They will be abusive (blasphemous, scoffing), disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy {and} profane.
2 Tim 3:3 [They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate {and} loose in morals {and} conduct, uncontrolled {and} fierce, haters of good.
2 Tim 3:4 [They will be] treacherous [betrayers], rash, [and] inflated with self-conceit. [They will be] lovers of sensual pleasures {and} vain amusements more than {and} rather than lovers of God.
2 Tim 3:5 For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny {and} reject {and} are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].
2 Tim 3:6 For among them are those who worm their way into homes and captivate silly {and} weak-natured {and} spiritually dwarfed women, loaded down with [the burden of their] sins [and easily] swayed {and} led away by various evil desires {and} seductive impulses.
2 Tim 3:7 [These weak women will listen to anybody who will teach them]; they are forever inquiring {and} getting information, but are never able to arrive at a recognition {and} knowledge of the Truth.

John 16:2 They will put you out of (expel you from) the synagogues; but an hour is coming when whoever kills you will think {and} claim that he has offered service to God.

Jeanne D
Jan 14th 2007, 06:21 AM
I don't think it is the mark either, but it sure goes a long way to further desensitize people to greater invasion. Remember not too many years ago when debit cards became "common"? Everyone adjusted and it really appears that they make life a bit simpler. Each simple adjustment makes is easier for the next one.


My thoughts exactly.

Jeanne

brother coolbreeze
Jan 14th 2007, 04:12 PM
When muslim's bow towad Mecca with their forehead on the ground, it makes a mark on it over the years. Their hands are also flat on the ground. It could be that this is the mark.
I don't believe in a one world religion or one world government, so those people who live under the 10 nation Islamic empire of the antichrist will not be able to buy or sell unless they bow to him or mecca.

Also consider this by Michael Fortner.

Some people insist that everyone on Earth will actually worship a global dictator, in spite of the verses in Revelation 13 that say that the beast will wage war against Christians. The Greek word for worship used in the book of Revelation is proskuneo (4352) which literally means to bow down before someone. The Complete Word Study Dictionary says,

In the NT, generally, to do reverence or homage to someone, usually by kneeling or prostrating oneself before him. (CWD)Every instance of the word "worship" in the book of Revelation is proskuneo. If John wanted to give a different meaning he could have used one of several different Greek words such as sebomai (4576) which means,

To revere, stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, to worship religiously. To stand in awe of someone, to reverence, venerate, worship.Bowing before someone was considered a form of worship and the Greek word proskuneo refers to this form of worship. What this points to in Revelation 13 is the bowing toward Mecca that Muslims do five times every day; the religion of the beast will be Islam and it is the majority religion in the Middle East and North Africa.

bc

EarlyCall
Jan 15th 2007, 12:37 PM
Here is yet another article today, well, one of two actually: http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jan2007/sb20070111_186325.htm?chan=smallbiz_smallbiz+index +page_today%27s+top+stories

:) I love facts and evidence over opinion.

possumliving
Jan 15th 2007, 03:05 PM
Here is yet another article today, well, one of two actually: http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jan2007/sb20070111_186325.htm?chan=smallbiz_smallbiz+index +page_today%27s+top+stories

:) I love facts and evidence over opinion.
thank you for posting that...

It's as I said at the beginning of this thread. This is a precusor to the mark.

And now, they're working on a bill that makes it illegal for anyone to be doing any lobbying or writing or petitioning on bills that they disagree with without a lot of reporting to the government. So now they are even wanting to track who is up on the government issues and speaks out about them.

Lobbying Bill Will Violate Free Speech and the Right to Freely Petition Government

www.traditionalvalues.org/modultes.php?sid=2983

possumliving
Jan 15th 2007, 03:08 PM
When muslim's bow towad Mecca with their forehead on the ground, it makes a mark on it over the years. Their hands are also flat on the ground. It could be that this is the mark.
I don't believe in a one world religion or one world government, so those people who live under the 10 nation Islamic empire of the antichrist will not be able to buy or sell unless they bow to him or mecca.

Also consider this by Michael Fortner.

Some people insist that everyone on Earth will actually worship a global dictator, in spite of the verses in Revelation 13 that say that the beast will wage war against Christians. The Greek word for worship used in the book of Revelation is proskuneo (4352) which literally means to bow down before someone. The Complete Word Study Dictionary says,

In the NT, generally, to do reverence or homage to someone, usually by kneeling or prostrating oneself before him. (CWD)Every instance of the word "worship" in the book of Revelation is proskuneo. If John wanted to give a different meaning he could have used one of several different Greek words such as sebomai (4576) which means,

To revere, stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, to worship religiously. To stand in awe of someone, to reverence, venerate, worship.Bowing before someone was considered a form of worship and the Greek word proskuneo refers to this form of worship. What this points to in Revelation 13 is the bowing toward Mecca that Muslims do five times every day; the religion of the beast will be Islam and it is the majority religion in the Middle East and North Africa.

bc
Well that's all nice and everything. But once again, it doesn't do away with what is written in the Bible.

This beast will not exclude all other faiths and focus on Islam.

The Ecumenical Movement is now focusing their efforts on bringing Islam in the fold and they very well could before this is over.

The Ecumenical Movement is the One World Religion.

EarlyCall
Jan 15th 2007, 04:25 PM
Here's yet another aticle from today.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17601

Paul_born_again
Jan 15th 2007, 04:59 PM
Here's yet another aticle from today.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17601

Here's an article linked from that one. http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18767

Very good reading.

bironfelix
Jan 15th 2007, 06:14 PM
Our concerns about the chip are valid! And we will endlessly fight with the pretribs about the time of the rapture . . . they will never be concerned sufficiently that we will face some of these things before the rapture . . . so how do we organize and come together to rationally and logically protect ourselves in democratic, peaceful, and Christian ways??

Mograce2U
Jan 15th 2007, 07:44 PM
Our concerns about the chip are valid! And we will endlessly fight with the pretribs about the time of the rapture . . . they will never be concerned sufficiently that we will face some of these things before the rapture . . . so how do we organize and come together to rationally and logically protect ourselves in democratic, peaceful, and Christian ways??I agree with you that the concerns regarding the chip are valid for a muriad of reasons - the least of which is any spiritual ramifications - for there are none.

moonglow
Jan 15th 2007, 08:14 PM
Our concerns about the chip are valid! And we will endlessly fight with the pretribs about the time of the rapture . . . they will never be concerned sufficiently that we will face some of these things before the rapture . . . so how do we organize and come together to rationally and logically protect ourselves in democratic, peaceful, and Christian ways??

Does the bible say we are to do anything like this? no, it does not. It clearly says those that don't take the mark AND worship the beast will be killed. Doesn't say to fight it, or run and hide or anything like that.

Revelation 13

14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

I also wouldn't assume those of us that don't believe the chip is the mark of the beast are rapture believers either. I believe neither is true.

God bless

moonglow
Jan 15th 2007, 08:20 PM
Here's yet another aticle from today.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17601

I already posted articles that showed that the 'bad guys' are not allowed to get the 'chip'...which seems to go against what the bible says actually...:hmm:

I still want to know how the antichrist is going to solve the world poverty problem so that all the poor have money to spend to even need a chip...it seems that isn't in the bible, him solving the world proverty problems...:hmm:

It still appears only the 'good' law abiding people that have money are the ones going to get chipped...excluding alot of people...billions in fact in this world.

moonglow
Jan 15th 2007, 08:39 PM
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/dec2006/sb20061219_549584.htm

Farmers Say No to Animal Tags
In its Michigan test, the National Animal Identification System gets a rude reception from small farmers who say it invades their privacy

EarlyCall
Jan 15th 2007, 10:02 PM
I already posted articles that showed that the 'bad guys' are not allowed to get the 'chip'...which seems to go against what the bible says actually...:hmm:

I still want to know how the antichrist is going to solve the world poverty problem so that all the poor have money to spend to even need a chip...it seems that isn't in the bible, him solving the world proverty problems...:hmm:

It still appears only the 'good' law abiding people that have money are the ones going to get chipped...excluding alot of people...billions in fact in this world.


However if the chip is the mark, they will get it. I do get your point, and so if it isn't the chip...

From the beginning you claim they will not chip the poor people in the world nor would they spend the money to do it. That is a very interesting theory based on hard evidence to the contrary - their willingness to chip millions of poor animals that can even make a purchase of any kind!

If you understand that the mark will mean a soul sealed to hell, you would understand that the dev*l is more than willing to spend whatever money it takes to get the poor souls same as the rich ones. And I'm certain you do understand what it means to take the mark whatever it may be. That being the case, can you tell me why the dev*l won't spend the money to go after the poor souls? You keep looking at this in one aspect only when there are two at work here.

EarlyCall
Jan 15th 2007, 10:37 PM
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/dec2006/sb20061219_549584.htm

Farmers Say No to Animal Tags
In its Michigan test, the National Animal Identification System gets a rude reception from small farmers who say it invades their privacy
And so? Whatever point you are trying to make here is moot. Small farmers? Who cares honestly what they think about this issue as they will do it or they will not sell meat - only a matter of time. Economic pressures put on them by the government will make the "voluntary" compliance work very well indeed.

I suppose some are claimng security problems, privacy issues and a number of other possible issues will prevent the chip, but then those same people were saying the same thing about the national id card.

And I know MG that you like to continually argue in every one of these threads that the poor will not be chipped because of a couple seemingly good reasons (and they do make sense, but making sense doesn't make it necessarily so).

You might at least stop to consider that the mark means you go to hell, and since sat*n would like to see the poor in hell just as much as he would the rich, well, umm, don't you think sat*n is willing to spend the money? The answer is of course yes.

Further, if your argument is right concerning the poor, can you help me understand why we are going to chip millions of animals? They seem to be not only poor but they can't even buy and sell and yet we are going to where they are and we are chipping them just the same! Such a thing would never be done you claim with the poor of the world, and yet we will do it with animals. I'm sure you get the point.

That's ok. Wasn't it this thread where one person had a hissy fit because I wouldn't agree with them (as if I'm somehow obligated to agree with them on anything - that's just funny). We don't need to agree because time is going to shake this thing out and make it very plain, except to those that will be deceived. Now the point here is that I have to allow that I might be completely wrong and way off track because I think I am right but I absolutely do not know. That would be true of the person that had the hissy and for every last one of us. It doesn't hurt to keep that in mind on this board sometimes.

Mograce2U
Jan 16th 2007, 02:02 AM
However if the chip is the mark, they will get it. I do get your point, and so if it isn't the chip...

From the beginning you claim they will not chip the poor people in the world nor would they spend the money to do it. That is a very interesting theory based on hard evidence to the contrary - their willingness to chip millions of poor animals that can even make a purchase of any kind!

If you understand that the mark will mean a soul sealed to hell, you would understand that the dev*l is more than willing to spend whatever money it takes to get the poor souls same as the rich ones. And I'm certain you do understand what it means to take the mark whatever it may be. That being the case, can you tell me why the dev*l won't spend the money to go after the poor souls? You keep looking at this in one aspect only when there are two at work here.You still fail to address the worship of the beast aspect that Moonglow pointed out. It is not the chip per se that damns one, it is the worship of the beast. Idolatry is what sends one to hell. And what is the mark of the idolator? It is covetousness. The taking of a physical emblem has little to do with this issue of the heart.

EarlyCall
Jan 16th 2007, 04:14 AM
You still fail to address the worship of the beast aspect that Moonglow pointed out. It is not the chip per se that damns one, it is the worship of the beast. Idolatry is what sends one to hell. And what is the mark of the idolator? It is covetousness. The taking of a physical emblem has little to do with this issue of the heart.


I thought I did mention in a post that I agreed that worship of the beast is part of the issue. I think they will go hand-in-hand. I think the mentality of someone taking the mark is the same that will worship the beast.

Covetousness? I don't know about that, but I believe it will be a physical mark because as I've said before, it has to do with buying and selling and man implements such things in the physical and not the spiritual. But if you can offer a reason why it would not be physical in the realm of man and how it is connected to the material of buying and selling, which is man and physical, then I will concede it can in no way be the chip. Until then, I believe mankind is pointing to the chip and it will be man that implements the mark of the beast - not God.

possumliving
Jan 16th 2007, 09:16 PM
Our concerns about the chip are valid! And we will endlessly fight with the pretribs about the time of the rapture . . . they will never be concerned sufficiently that we will face some of these things before the rapture . . . so how do we organize and come together to rationally and logically protect ourselves in democratic, peaceful, and Christian ways??
Matt 24:45 Who then is the faithful, thoughtful, {and} wise servant, whom his master has put in charge of his household to give to the others the food {and} supplies at the proper time?
Matt 24:46 Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) is that servant whom, when his master comes, he will find so doing.
Matt 24:47 I solemnly declare to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Matt 24:48 But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, My master is delayed {and} is going to be gone a long time,
Matt 24:49 And begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken,
Matt 24:50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware,
Matt 24:51 And will punish him [cut him up by scourging] and put him with the pretenders (hypocrites); there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

God has already been organizing and getting people ready. Seek Him first and He will lead, guide and direct you. God has been preparing people for this time since, well for a very long time. Some, He has spoken too since they were children.

Seek the Lord and wait on His perfect timing.

possumliving
Jan 16th 2007, 09:23 PM
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/dec2006/sb20061219_549584.htm

Farmers Say No to Animal Tags
In its Michigan test, the National Animal Identification System gets a rude reception from small farmers who say it invades their privacy
Moonglow, did you notice the numbers in that article that had already agreed to register their premises?

Are you also aware that the government is already terrorizing local growers, small farmers? That they are going in and holding them at gunpoint and destroying their animals without any proof of disease or breaking the law?

Its already happened several times right here in VA. And its terrorism of the worst sort, its terrorizing our own citizens.

People's property is also being confiscated.

What are you afraid of that you refuse to see the writing on the wall?

Denial means to refuse to take responsibility for...fill in the blank.

Responsible means the ability to respond to a given situation. Now we've all been given the ability to respond, instead of react but what I see from most people on these issues is they get to a certain point and they are unwilling to except reality for what it is and back themselves into a corner of denial.

As if to say, 'if I deny that it is real, it won't happen'.

possumliving
Jan 16th 2007, 09:28 PM
You still fail to address the worship of the beast aspect that Moonglow pointed out. It is not the chip per se that damns one, it is the worship of the beast. Idolatry is what sends one to hell. And what is the mark of the idolator? It is covetousness. The taking of a physical emblem has little to do with this issue of the heart.
And perhaps you forget that the promise that the false messiah offers, that propels their worship is a false peace.

Mograce2U
Jan 17th 2007, 04:05 AM
And perhaps you forget that the promise that the false messiah offers, that propels their worship is a false peace.Where is that verse?

Cool Breeze
Jan 17th 2007, 06:33 AM
It's worth noting that Congress passed the REAL ID Act 2005 without a hearing even though legislators in both parties urged debate.

Reminds me of the Patriot Act; it got passed without anybody actually reading it.

From what I bhave read the ID will not be mandatory. But then again eating is not mandatory unless you want to die.

You will not be able to use air travel, or trains.

You will not be able to enter a Federal building.

You will not be able to open a bank account. (I have heard some say that this only applies to certain banks and a person can still refuse the ID and open a bank account.)

It goes into effect in May of 2008 if my memory serves me correctly and I for one will not be getting any National ID card.

EarlyCall
Jan 17th 2007, 01:47 PM
It's worth noting that Congress passed the REAL ID Act 2005 without a hearing even though legislators in both parties urged debate.

Reminds me of the Patriot Act; it got passed without anybody actually reading it.

From what I bhave read the ID will not be mandatory. But then again eating is not mandatory unless you want to die.

You will not be able to use air travel, or trains.

You will not be able to enter a Federal building.

You will not be able to open a bank account. (I have heard some say that this only applies to certain banks and a person can still refuse the ID and open a bank account.)

It goes into effect in May of 2008 if my memory serves me correctly and I for one will not be getting any National ID card.

I agree that is very much worth noting.

And it is my belief, and I believe I mentioned this already, but its worth repeating here that the national id card is not going to be a success. It will be a success enough that the idea will be proven to be sound and worthy but the implementing of it, as in the card form, will prove to be insufficient. That will mean then that a better way must be found, and it will then move into the phase of chipping people, or as someone in another thread has mentioned there is talk of inking animals. Both the chip and the ink are using RFID technology.

The point here is that this is the physical marking of people that is coming and it is I believe not long off. The delay has been cost to businesses. It is a mistake to think that only the government will drive this as businesses will be a major driving force in all of this.

At this point in my thinking, I don't have a problem with a card, but I will never by the grace of God alone allow myself to be physically marked.

It is interesting to note that the Bible says that the beast will cause... It seems to me then that the beast must be in power at the time when the physical mark is implemented in order to buy and sell, otherwise he could not cause. And if he is causing all people to take the mark in order to buy and sell, and if we are forewarned about this in the Bible, then wouldn't taking the mark be an act of worship to the beast? Doesn't being forewarned about this mean we are to know, ought to know and should have known that taking the mark (whatever it is) in order to buy and sell is worshiping the beast? We are also told that taking the mark seals our fate to hell. I'm trying to say here that taking the mark may be sufficient to constitute an act of worship to the beast.

Businesses are collaborating even now concerning people being chipped in order to buy from their stores. Well, if that doesn't sound like what the Bible says, then I don't know what does. It does sound like it to me.

Cool Breeze
Jan 18th 2007, 07:21 AM
And it is my belief, and I believe I mentioned this already, but its worth repeating here that the national id card is not going to be a success. It will be a success enough that the idea will be proven to be sound and worthy but the implementing of it, as in the card form, will prove to be insufficient.

Do you think that the National ID card is being deliberatly set up to be a failure?

possumliving
Jan 18th 2007, 08:12 AM
Where is that verse?
It's not a verse but a prophecy...

Jer 6:14 They have healed also the wound of the daughter of My people lightly {and} neglectfully, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.
Jer 6:15 Were they brought to shame because they had committed abominations (extremely disgusting and vile things)? No, they were not at all ashamed, nor could they blush [at their idolatry]. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; at the time that I punish them they shall be overthrown, says the Lord.
Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand by the roads and look; and ask for the eternal paths, where the good, old way is; then walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk in it!
Jer 6:17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hear {and} obey the sound of the trumpet! But they said, We will not listen {or} obey.
Jer 6:18 Therefore hear, O [Gentile] nations, and know, O congregation [of believing ones], what [great things I will do] to them.
Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I am bringing evil upon this people, the fruit of their thoughts (their schemes and devices) because they have not listened {and} obeyed My words, and as for My law, they have rejected it.
Jer 6:20 To what purpose does frankincense come to Me from Sheba [in southwestern Arabia] and the sweet cane from a far country? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor are your sacrifices sweet {or} pleasing to Me.
Jer 6:21 Therefore thus says the Lord: Behold, I will lay stumbling blocks before this people. And the fathers and the sons together will stumble against them; the neighbor and his friend will perish.
Jer 6:22 Thus says the Lord: Behold, a people is coming from the north country, and a great nation is arousing itself from the ends of the earth.
Jer 6:23 They lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel (ruthless and inhuman) and have no mercy. Their voice sounds like the roaring sea; they ride on horses, every one set in array as a man for battle against you, O Daughter of Zion!
Jer 6:24 We have heard the report of it; our hands become feeble {and} helpless. Anguish has taken hold of us, pangs like that of a woman in childbirth.
Jer 6:25 Go not out into the field nor walk on the road, for the enemy is armed with the sword; terror is on every side.
Jer 6:26 O daughter of my people [says Jeremiah], gird yourself with sackcloth and wallow in ashes; make mourning as for an only son, a most bitter lamentation, for the destroyer will suddenly come upon us [on prophet and people].
Jer 6:27 I [says the Lord] have set you [Jeremiah] as an assayer {and} a prover of ore among My people, that you may know and try their doings and be like a watchtower.
Jer 6:28 They are all the worst [kind] of rebels {and} utter and total revolters against God, going about publishing slander. They are [not gold and silver ore, but] bronze and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jer 6:29 The bellows blow fiercely, the lead is consumed by the fire; in vain do they continue refining, for the wicked [the dross] are not removed.
Jer 6:30 Men will call them reprobate {and} rejected silver [only dross, without good metal], because the Lord has rejected them.
Jer 7:1 THE WORD that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
Jer 7:2 Stand in the gate of the Lord's house and proclaim there this word and say, Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord.
Jer 7:3 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
Jer 7:4 Trust not in the lying words [of the false prophets who maintain that God will protect Jerusalem because His temple is there], saying, This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.
Jer 7:5 For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly {and} truly execute justice between every man and his neighbor,
Jer 7:6 If you do not oppress the transient {and} the alien, the fatherless, and the widow or shed innocent blood [by oppression and by judicial murders] in [Jerusalem] or go after other gods to your own hurt,
Jer 7:7 Then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers to dwell in forever.

Joel 2:1 BLOW THE trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on My holy Mount [Zion]. Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of [the judgment of] the Lord is coming; it is close at hand--
Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and of thick mists {and} darkness, like the morning dawn spread upon the mountains; so there comes a [heathen, hostile] people numerous and mighty, the like of which has never been before and shall not be again even to the years of many generations.
Joel 2:3 A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yes, and none has escaped [the ravages of the devouring hordes].
Joel 2:4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like war horses {and} horsemen, so do they run.
Joel 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of the mountains they leap--like the noise of a flame of fire devouring the stubble, like a mighty people set in battle array.
Joel 2:6 Before them the peoples are in anguish; all faces become pale.
Joel 2:7 They run like mighty men; they climb the wall like men of war. They march each one [straight ahead] on his ways, and they do not break their ranks.
Joel 2:8 Neither does one thrust upon another; they walk every one in his path. And they burst through {and} upon the weapons, yet they are not wounded {and} do not change their course.
Joel 2:9 They leap upon the city; they run upon the wall; they climb up on {and} into the houses; they enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them; the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened and the stars withdraw their shining.
Joel 2:11 And the Lord utters His voice before His army, for His host is very great, and [they are] strong {and} powerful who execute [God's] word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible, and who can endure it?
Joel 2:12 Therefore also now, says the Lord, turn {and} keep on coming to Me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning [until every hindrance is removed and the broken fellowship is restored].
Joel 2:13 Rend your hearts and not your garments and return to the Lord, your God, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in loving-kindness; and He revokes His sentence of evil [when His conditions are met].
Joel 2:14 Who knows but what He will turn, revoke your sentence [of evil], and leave a blessing behind Him [giving you the means with which to serve Him], even a cereal {or} meal offering and a drink offering for the Lord, your God?
Joel 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion; set apart a fast [a day of restraint and humility]; call a solemn assembly.
Joel 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation; assemble the elderly people, gather the children and the nursing infants; let the bridegroom [who is legally exempt from attending] go forth from his chamber and the bride out of her closet. [None is exempt from the humiliation.]
Joel 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar; and let them say, Have pity {and} spare Your people, O Lord, and give not Your heritage to reproach, that the [heathen] nations should rule over them {or} use a byword against them. Why should they say among the peoples, Where is their God?
Joel 2:18 Then was the Lord jealous for His land and had pity on His people.
Joel 2:19 Yes, the Lord answered and said to His people, Behold, I am sending you grain and juice [of the grape] and oil, and you shall be satisfied with them; and I will no more make you a reproach among the [heathen] nations.
Joel 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern [destroyer's] army and will drive it into a land barren and desolate, with its front toward the eastern [Dead] Sea and with its rear toward the western [Mediterranean] Sea. And its stench shall come up [like that of a decaying mass of locusts, a symbol and forecast of the fate of the northern army in the final day of the Lord], and its foul odor shall come up, because He has done great things [the Lord will have destroyed the invaders]!


Jer 8:11 For they have healed the wound of the daughter of My people only lightly {and} slightingly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.
Jer 8:12 They are brought to shame because they have committed abominations (extremely disgusting and shamefully vile things). And yet they were not at all ashamed, nor could they blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; at the time of their punishment they shall be overthrown, says the Lord.
Jer 8:13 I will gather {and} sweep them away, utterly consuming them, says the Lord. [I will find] no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and even the leaf is withered; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them [for I have appointed to them those who shall pass over them].
Jer 8:14 [Then say the people to each other] Why do we sit still? Assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the fortified cities and be silent {or} perish there! For the Lord our God has decreed our ruin and given us bitter {and} poisonous water to drink, because we have sinned against the Lord.
Jer 8:15 We looked for peace {and} completeness, but no good came, and for a time of healing, but behold, dismay, trouble, {and} terror!
Jer 8:16 The snorting of [Nebuchadnezzar's] horses is heard from Dan [on the northern border of Palestine]. At the sound of the neighing of his strong war-horses the whole land quakes; for they come and devour the land and all that is in it, the city and those who dwell in it.
Jer 8:17 For behold, I am sending among you serpents, adders which cannot be charmed, and they shall bite you, says the Lord.
Jer 8:18 Oh, that I [Jeremiah] could comfort myself against sorrow, [for my grief is beyond healing], my heart is sick {and} faint within me!

Rev 8:10 The third angel blew [his] trumpet, and a huge star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it dropped on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is Wormwood. A third part of the waters was changed into wormwood, and many people died from using the water, because it had become bitter.
Rev 8:12 Then the fourth angel blew [his] trumpet, and a third of the sun was smitten, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that [the light of] a third of them was darkened, and a third of the daylight [itself] was withdrawn, and likewise a third [of the light] of the night was kept from shining.
Rev 8:13 Then I [looked and I] saw a solitary eagle flying in midheaven, and as it flew I heard it crying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the rest of the trumpet blasts which the three angels are about to sound!
Rev 9:1 THEN THE fifth angel blew [his] trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth; and to the angel was given the key of the shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit).
Rev 9:2 He opened the long shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit), and smoke like the smoke of a huge furnace puffed out of the long shaft, so that the sun and the atmosphere were darkened by the smoke from the long shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke locusts came forth on the earth, and such power was granted them as the power the earth's scorpions have.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to injure the herbage of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only [to attack] such human beings as do not have the seal (mark) of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 They were not permitted to kill them, but to torment (distress, vex) them for five months; and the pain caused them was like the torture of a scorpion when it stings a person.

EarlyCall
Jan 18th 2007, 12:47 PM
Do you think that the National ID card is being deliberatly set up to be a failure?

I don't know if deliberately, but I believe it will. Businesses want people chipped personally as it will make them money and save them money. Government is beginning, I think to think on such things and they are into control. But I honestly think both are being absolutely pragmatic about all of this and not thinking about making us ready for the beast and his forcing people to take the mark. Perhaps some in some deep, dark inner circles think such things, but I don't think otherwise.

But can you think of weaknesses with the card that could be solved with the chip? I can. I'm sure you can easily as well. Can't the government aslo then see such things? Without a doubt. So if you wanted to accomplish the chip but couldn't go to it directly, how would you go about it?

Mograce2U
Jan 18th 2007, 05:13 PM
possumliving,
I don't see anything in those passages that implies the antichrist brings a false peace. Where exactly do you see this?

possumliving
Jan 20th 2007, 09:36 AM
possumliving,
I don't see anything in those passages that implies the antichrist brings a false peace. Where exactly do you see this?
Reread it.

Can you see that it is concerning the End Times? If you can't see that you won't see the false peace mentioned.

Peace, peace, when there is no peace means that the world in general believes there is peace but in reality it is not peace.

In otherwords, when Israel and the Church is under seige, the world will believe that there is peace.

possumliving
Jan 20th 2007, 10:01 AM
possumliving,
I don't see anything in those passages that implies the antichrist brings a false peace. Where exactly do you see this?
Here's some more...

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall corrupt {and} destroy astonishingly and shall prosper and do his own pleasure, and he shall corrupt {and} destroy the mighty men and the holy people (the people of the saints).
Dan 8:25 And through his policy he shall cause trickery to prosper in his hand; he shall magnify himself in his heart {and} mind, and in their security he will corrupt {and} destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be broken and that by no [human] hand.


25 And by peace shall (Antichrist) destroy many: he (Antichrist)
shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Jesus Christ);
but he shall be broken without hand;


Dan 9:27 And he shall enter into a strong {and} firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing {or} pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.


27 And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the (false peace) covenant
with many (Israel and other nations) for one week (7 years):

http://www.benisrael.org/articles/false_alarms.htm
"According to Dan. 11:23-30, there is a whole detailed sequence of regional conflicts, stratagems, and events that occur after the “league” (false peace), but before the desecrating sacrilege that initiates the period of Israel’s final desolations (the so-called “footsteps of Messiah” of rabbinic eschatology). This foregoing sequence of events is, regrettably, by an impossible exegesis, attributed to the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes in the 2nd century B.C. He was indeed a type that remarkably followed the pattern of the final oppressor, but as Keil and a host of other of the best exegetes will point out, there is a great deal of unaccounted non-fulfillment that fails to match in adequate detail the actions of the Syrian tyrant, pointing to a greater and more precise fulfillment in the future. After all, Antiochus was not destroyed by the Son of Man as will be true of the “little horn” of Daniel’s prophecy (Dan. 7:11-27; 8:9-14, 23-25; 11:21-45), and of “the man of sin” of Paul’s epistolary warning (compare esp. 2 Thess. 2:3-8 with Dan. 11:35-37). Neither did the persecuting career of Antiochus IV end in Israel’s final deliverance and the resurrection of the righteous (Dan. 11:45 - 12:1-2)."


Now I distinctly remember on one of Jack Van Impe's shows, although I don't watch him much anymore...he was showing newsclips. The topic of that day was the EU and the World Bank. He showed a film clip of one of the leaders who stated, "We are looking for someone, be it a man or a devil, that will solve all of our problems."

And I believe that if they want peace outside of Jesus Christ, they'll have to settle for the devil.

Cool Breeze
Jan 20th 2007, 11:14 AM
But can you think of weaknesses with the card that could be solved with the chip? I can. I'm sure you can easily as well. Can't the government aslo then see such things?

Absolutely!

The chip---you will never leave home without it.

Mograce2U
Jan 20th 2007, 04:53 PM
Possumliving,
Thanks Dan 8:25 was the passage I was looking for.

Have you considered the chronological order of the book of Daniel? Here is my mapping:

Dan 1-4: Nebuchadnezzar is king

Dan 7: the 1st year of Belshazzar, Neb's son
Dan 8: The 3rd year of Belshazzar
Dan 5: The last year of Belshazzar, when the hand writes on the wall.

Dan 10: The 3rd year of Cyrus, king of Persia. (In his first year he made the decree to rebuild the temple - see Ezra)

Dan 6: Darius who follows Cyrus, sets up his rulership of the kingdom
Dan 9: The 1st year of Darius, Daniel realizes the 70 yrs is fulfilled. It is during his reign that the building of the temple is restarted. It is in this chapter that we see Messiah will come to this temple.
Dan 11: The 1st year of Darius
Dan 12: continues ch 11 in the same time frame

It seems to me that we ought to consider the visions Daniel is given in light of the historical climate at the time he received them - before we jump ahead into a far future context.

jesuslover1968
Jan 20th 2007, 05:02 PM
Possumliving,
Thanks Dan 8:25 was the passage I was looking for.

Have you considered the chronological order of the book of Daniel? Here is my mapping:

Dan 1-4: Nebuchadnezzar is king

Dan 7: the 1st year of Belshazzar, Neb's son
Dan 8: The 3rd year of Belshazzar
Dan 5: The last year of Belshazzar, when the hand writes on the wall.

Dan 10: The 3rd year of Cyrus, king of Persia. (In his first year he made the decree to rebuild the temple - see Ezra)

Dan 6: Darius who follows Cyrus, sets up his rulership of the kingdom
Dan 9: The 1st year of Darius, Daniel realizes the 70 yrs is fulfilled. It is during his reign that the building of the temple is restarted. It is in this chapter that we see Messiah will come to this temple.
Dan 11: The 1st year of Darius
Dan 12: continues ch 11 in the same time frame

It seems to me that we ought to consider the visions Daniel is given in light of the historical climate at the time he received them - before we jump ahead into a far future context.

Daniel 12:4


4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


If we did that, we would be disregarding scripture that tells us specifically that the words and the book of this prophecy are shut up until the time of the end.
I have read many pages of supposed proof that the prophecies were all fulfilled by A.D. 70. In order to make them fit, things had to be changed, disregarded and spirtualized to do so. I think it important we take the Word of God more seriously than books written that do this. God Bless.

Mograce2U
Jan 20th 2007, 08:18 PM
Daniel 12:4

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

If we did that, we would be disregarding scripture that tells us specifically that the words and the book of this prophecy are shut up until the time of the end.
I have read many pages of supposed proof that the prophecies were all fulfilled by A.D. 70. In order to make them fit, things had to be changed, disregarded and spirtualized to do so. I think it important we take the Word of God more seriously than books written that do this. God Bless.But what end is that? When Jesus refers to Daniel it would seem to be what opens the book for us to understand.

possumliving
Jan 22nd 2007, 08:53 AM
Possumliving,
Thanks Dan 8:25 was the passage I was looking for.

Have you considered the chronological order of the book of Daniel? Here is my mapping:

Dan 1-4: Nebuchadnezzar is king

Dan 7: the 1st year of Belshazzar, Neb's son
Dan 8: The 3rd year of Belshazzar
Dan 5: The last year of Belshazzar, when the hand writes on the wall.

Dan 10: The 3rd year of Cyrus, king of Persia. (In his first year he made the decree to rebuild the temple - see Ezra)

Dan 6: Darius who follows Cyrus, sets up his rulership of the kingdom
Dan 9: The 1st year of Darius, Daniel realizes the 70 yrs is fulfilled. It is during his reign that the building of the temple is restarted. It is in this chapter that we see Messiah will come to this temple.
Dan 11: The 1st year of Darius
Dan 12: continues ch 11 in the same time frame

It seems to me that we ought to consider the visions Daniel is given in light of the historical climate at the time he received them - before we jump ahead into a far future context.
Ah, but you have to take a good look at Daniel and see the things that weren't completely fulfilled back then. They have to be completely fulfilled.

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, Understand, O son of man, for the [fulfillment of the] vision belongs to [events that shall occur in] the time of the end.

Dan 12:9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be tried, smelted, {and} refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the teachers {and} those who are wise shall understand.


Dan 12:4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro {and} search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God's purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased {and} become great.

possumliving
Jan 22nd 2007, 08:56 AM
Ah, but you have to take a good look at Daniel and see the things that weren't completely fulfilled back then. They have to be completely fulfilled.

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, Understand, O son of man, for the [fulfillment of the] vision belongs to [events that shall occur in] the time of the end.

Dan 12:9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be tried, smelted, {and} refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the teachers {and} those who are wise shall understand.


Dan 12:4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro {and} search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God's purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased {and} become great.
Also, in a footnote in the Amplified:

where it says king in 11:36,

The antichrist is in view from this point in the prophecy to the end of the chapter. The details listed here do not fit what is known of Antiochus Epiphanes. See II Thess. 2:4; Rev. 13:5-8

And there are all sorts of footnotes like that concerning end times prophecy throughout the OT.

possumliving
Dec 24th 2008, 06:15 AM
Because of some discussions in other threads....

And because of the things I see in the news and in political arena...

I thought perhaps this discussion should be bumped up again so that we might add further to it.

My opinion about the laws that were passed and made mandatory, was so that when they were needed, they would have been pretty much forgotten about. But, those things are already written into law so all they have to do is be enforced when the time comes....AND it will come soon! I'd say by at least 2011.

Steph

Veretax
Dec 24th 2008, 03:37 PM
I'm not going to say this is or is not the Sign of the Beast, but I believe that if we do see such happen in our life time that the elect will know without a doubt what it is so that they can avoid it.

possumliving
Dec 26th 2008, 11:07 PM
I'm not going to say this is or is not the Sign of the Beast, but I believe that if we do see such happen in our life time that the elect will know without a doubt what it is so that they can avoid it.

Yes, I sure believe that! But be aware that not everybody that calls themselves Christians are the 'elect'. Only those that love the Truth, that they might be saved. The others, are going to be given a spirit of delusion.

Steph

Jude
Dec 29th 2008, 04:12 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/pray_persecuted_church.jpg


Look through this you may find something.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Jude

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/globe8.gif

possumliving
Dec 29th 2008, 04:37 AM
Sorry Jude,

I have a difficult time looking at anything from Hitler or the Nazi party. My stepfather was a Nazi and he tortured me.

One thing that I became aware of though was this. I didn't understand why I detested New Age doctrines so vehemently, until I found a web site years ago that compared Nazism with New Age Doctrines. Laid out side by side they are the same.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1185.cfm

www.lermanet.com/rainbow-swaztika/naF.htm

I grew up with them. Was ritually abused and tortured because of these beliefs.

There is also the belief that the weak should not live. I was at a disadvantage there because I was a sick child.

Steph