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Bionic Woman
Jan 12th 2007, 12:47 PM
I am with a church that gets into this tithing offering practice that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I feel that we cannot change what is written in The Bible as a matter of 'Principle' ...... that churches should be honest with their peoples be it paying their rent, pastor's salaries, deacon salaries, provision of needs for the 'Financially Poor' whereby telling them gospel truths and Jesus Christ and The Trinity is the best solution and only solution in resolving their 'Problems.'

That they be forthright and honest to their peoples if they need donations and not shoot the peoples back to the old covenant / offering of Tithing.

That only believing and having faith in Christ can bring about the Abrahamic Blessing unto everyone. ( Galatians Chapter 3 : 14 makes reference to Gentiles while Genesis, Exodus, Numbers & Deuteronomy describes 12 Tribes Of Israel).

What about The Samaritan Spirit Of A Cheerful Giver Rather Than Shooting Members Back To An Old Covenant That Is Imposing, Dictative By The Law & Offerings which is Tithing?

And that Tithing is an old covenant that is already abolished for Believers In Christ.

Upon reading the chapters in Hebrews Chapters 5, 6, 7, & 8....it is obvious that tithing is an old covenant as Jesus had taken over with the new covenant and we are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec made higher than the heavens.


Hebrews Chapter 5 :
6: As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
10: Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.



Hebrews Chapter 6 :
19: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20: Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews Chapter 7 :
21: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22: By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23: And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25: Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26: For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27: Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28: For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Hebrews Chapter 8 :
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


And Jesus seems to be unsupportive of The Scribes & Pharisees practising Tithing in many chapters of the bible :


Hebrews Chapter 10 : 8 -18

Acts 2 : 44 - 47

Romans 15 : 26 - 27

Mark 12 : 41-44

Mathew 23 : 23

Mathew 26 : 28

Mathew 10 : 9 - 10

Luke 11 : 42

Luke 21 : 1 - 6

Romans 15 - 26 - 27

Mathew 6 : 1 - 5

Luke 10 : 33 - 37

uric3
Jan 12th 2007, 03:09 PM
I agree it is from the OT and is no longer bound in the NT we are to be cheerful givers the passages that cover are giving now are 1st Cor 16:1-3 we can see we are to give upon the 1st day of the week. Then in 2nd Cor 9 and note verse 7. Also according to NT scriptures the only authority we have with that money is to Pay preachers and help needy Saints for the work of the church.

I have never known that we are to pay the elders and decons...

Frances
Jan 12th 2007, 06:43 PM
The hardest part of a person to convert is their cheque-book. Jesus didn't annul anything in the Old Testament - He came to give us His Life so that we would happily give God first call on everything He entrusts to us - including the money.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 12th 2007, 06:56 PM
Considering that everything in this world is God's, we have been loaned everything currently in our posession. Therefore i believe everything should be treated with respect, and great care.

Psa 50:10 For every wild animal of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the birds of the air, and all that moves in the field is mine.
Psa 50:12 "If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and all that is in it is mine.

Tithing is something we do out of seeing God's generousity, and giving back to Him, to distribute however He sees fit.

Afterall, He could take from us at anytime, what He has given to us - see the story of Job.

So essentially i feel that if we greedily hang on to everything we've got, we are in essence robbing God.


Now, Bionic Woman,
I do understand what you are talking about churchwise, and pastors speaking about tithing, as if it would condemn us if we didn't tithe. There was a church i used to go to, where the pastor blasted the congregation about tithing regularly, saying we would not receive any blessings til we blessed God.

That made me uncomfortable also, and i felt like i was being put on a guilt trip, i did wind up leaving that church for quite a few resons, including that one.

Offering of Praise
Jan 12th 2007, 07:40 PM
Interesting to note Melchizedek's name can be translated as "My king is righteous."

Melchizedek held two positions, He was King of Salem and Priest of God Most High (El Elyon). Salem was another name for Jerusalem.

Hebrews 7:11 and following says that Christ was a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

The tithe from Melchizedek to Abraham (Abram at that time) was a "type." It was an example. No where in the Bible are we commanded to give a tenth in our offering, but it is a good place to start.

I think a lot of people who advocate against the tithe are seeking to justify giving God less. If you are going to tithe is has to be one tenth because that is what the word tithe means. Offerings are what we give in addition to our tithe. Anything less is just giving money.

It all belongs to God to begin with. None of it really belongs to us. God gave us the means to be able to tithe and He could certainly take it away for our lack thereof.

jiggyfly
Jan 12th 2007, 10:41 PM
Tithing is an old covenant practice and so misrepresented today. The christian religious institution does not even teach tithing scripturally correct. They twist it and lie about it so they can get your money. I have found that most people who support tithing have very little knowledge of the scripturally correct practice of the tithe and the old law concerning the tithe. No one ever tithed on their paychecks or income. Only on increase. The priest was only given a piece of the tithe once every three years. The rest of the portion of the third year tithe was for widows, orphans and foriegners. The first and second year tithe was to be eaten by you and your household in the presence of God. There is so much deception and manipulation concerning tithing today that you could fill a library with all the mess.

Paul summed up new covenant giving like this; let everyone give as they choose in their own heart because God loves it when we give freely and with the right motive. Paul also said that if you give a little you will recieve little and if you give alot you recieve alot.

Vickilynn
Jan 12th 2007, 11:29 PM
Shalom,

2 Chronicles 31

Contributions for Worship

2 Hezekiah assigned the priests and Levites to divisions—each of them according to their duties as priests or Levites—to offer burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%2031;&version=31;#fen-NIV-11857a)] to minister, to give thanks and to sing praises at the gates of the LORD's dwelling.

3 The king contributed from his own possessions for the morning and evening burnt offerings and for the burnt offerings on the Sabbaths, New Moons and appointed feasts as written in the Law of the LORD.

4 He ordered the people living in Jerusalem to give the portion due the priests and Levites so they could devote themselves to the Law of the LORD.

5 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything.

6 The men of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the LORD their God, and they piled them in heaps. 7 They began doing this in the third month and finished in the seventh month. 8 When Hezekiah and his officials came and saw the heaps, they praised the LORD and blessed his people Israel.

9 Hezekiah asked the priests and Levites about the heaps; 10 and Azariah the chief priest, from the family of Zadok, answered, "Since the people began to bring their contributions to the temple of the LORD, we have had enough to eat and plenty to spare, because the LORD has blessed his people, and this great amount is left over."

Bionic Woman
Jan 16th 2007, 11:31 AM
Thank You All For Sharing.....

I am pretty sure All Believers are Cheerful Givers .....and do have the Samaritan Spirit....But we have to honour the reason why God by His Mercy had sent His Son Jesus / Yeshua to redeem us from our Sins By The Grace Of Jesus Through Our Faith in Him.

Non Believers Of Today Are Still Under Condemnation Of Sin/Law/Death/Bondage Of The Old Covenant Law Of Moses.

And Before Jesus Christ Came 2000 years ago...The People Were Still Under The Law Of Moses / Works.....We Are Super Privileged People Of Today....And The Peoples Are a Super Privileged Lot Who Had Existed After The Ressurection Of Jesus Christ. The Peoples Of Moses Days Were Stubborn And Aaron And A Number Of The Peoples had Built A Golden Calf For Worshipping Other Than The Murmurings And Wailings/ Discontentments Upon What God Had Already Given Them Be It Manna Sent Down From Heaven........And God Had To Give / Show The Peoples Of Israel The 10 Perfect Commandments To Point Out To Them That All Of Them Cannot Fullfill Even One Of The Commandments. As If You Fail One Commandment...You Will Fail All......

Only Jesus Being Perfect Can Help Redeem Us From The Perfect Law Of Moses By The Forgiveness Of Our Sins.

Certain Pastors/Preachers Or Deacons perhaps do not realize that they should not be shooting us back to an old covenant of works / law/ tradition/offering by either encouraging or imposing Tithing to the peoples.

Perhaps they ought to encourage and nourish us with the Samaritan Spirit of Giving without imposing upon us.....that we should not be harbouring carnal things of The Flesh / Temporal Things by giving them away to The Needy.


1 Corinthians Chapter 3 :

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=Kjv1Cor.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=3&division=div1

1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3: For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4: For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5: Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6: I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7: So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20: And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21: Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22: Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23: And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


Romans Chapter 8 :

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvRoma.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=8&division=div1


1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Hebrew Chapter 6 :

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvHebr.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=6&division=div1


4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Servant89
Mar 29th 2008, 11:11 PM
The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)



1. Only land owners that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock (lambs, sheep, goats, etc..). (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12)

2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. Money was not accepted as a tithing offering.

3. The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe.

4. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance and the poor and needy (widows, fatherless, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of God’s welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).

5. The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).

6. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29).

7. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).

8. If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their tithe into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals). But they had to turn the money into agricultural products so that they could be given to the Levites and eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26)

9. Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe. Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).

10. If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest. To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week.

11. The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord. The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10)

12. The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th ). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4.

13. The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26). This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).



Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect. Those laws are gone with the temple and the priesthood. The law of tithing is part of that group. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law there is no transgression and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law. Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.



Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;



Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

Servant89
Mar 29th 2008, 11:14 PM
We should not be telling Christians that they are robbing God when they fail to bring the 10% of their salary for the following reasons:




Reason # 1. The law of tithing (just as the law of sin offering) was connected with the Levitical priesthood and the temple ordinances. There are no more levites and the Temple disappeared. Therefore the law of tithing (as the law of sin offering) disappeared and is no longer in effect. Nowhere in the Bible does God command the Christians to give 10 % of our income to the church. And since that law does not exist, no one is robbing God when they fail to bring in their 10%.



It is written:


ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.




Reason # 2. The law of tithing states in Lev 27:30 that the tithe belongs to God. Yes, that is true. But God was referring to agricultural products. He was not referring to worker’s wages. There is a big difference between the two. According to the Rom 4:4, 100% of the wages belong to the workers (they have earned it, therefore their employer owes it to them).



Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned as grace, but of debt.



The 10 % that God was talking about had nothing to do with wages. It deals with the increase in agricultural products from the land, like corn, wheat, fruits, cattle, etc. (see Deu 14:22,28 & Deu 26:12). God claimed to own 10% of the increase in corn because God is actually doing most of the work (ask any farmer). Man works putting the seed in the ground but God sends the rain and the sun from heaven and he is the one that created life (and the DNA) to make the corn grow. God is the one that gives the increase of the agricultural products. So, truly, man can not claim that the increase of the land belongs to man 100% because the increase (the growth of a plant) is the Lord’s business. God is right in demanding part of the profit from the agricultural products (for the increase is of the Lord). It is written:



1Cor 3:6 I have planted, Apollo watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.



The law says in Deu 14:22,28 & Deu 26:12 that the tithing refers to 10% of the increase of the land and that is the work of the Lord. He truly has a claim on that, but He will not claim to own the wages of workers.



Reason # 3. It is a sin to try to earn God’s favor by keeping Old Testament laws (Gal 5:4; Gal 2:21; Rom 3:20). It is a gross error to say, he is worthy of becoming a deacon or an elder because he tithes. It is a gross error to say, he can not be an elder because he does not tithe. It is also a gross error to claim we are righteous because we tithe. Because if righteousness is based on the law, if we can earn it … why did he die?



Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes by the law, Christ died in vain.



Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.


LUK 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.




Reason # 4. God is not after our wallet, he is after our heart. In the New Testament, God is not impressed with how much we give. The next two verses occurred before Jesus nailed the law to the cross. As such, the law of tithing agricultural products was still in effect when Jesus said this (it had to be done). Again, God is not impressed with our giving of material things.

MAT 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

LUK 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 22:19 Show me the tribute money, and they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he said unto them, “Whose is this image and superinscription?”
21 They said to him, Caesar’s. Then he said unto them, “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

ACT 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.




Notice in the last passage, that Ananias had sold his property (out of peer pressure) and had given probably greater than 80% of his sale-profit to the church (which is far more than what elders and deacons give today). But God was not impressed with his large contribution. This clearly shows that God is not after our wallet, he is after our heart. To measure people’s righteousness based on their material giving is wrong. Notice also in Acts 5:4 that the Scripture clearly declared Ananias’ income as completely belonging to Ananias (not 10% belonging to God) and that he was at liberty to do with it (with all of it) whatever he pleased.



Reason # 5. We were told in the New Testament that when it comes to giving it should be like this:



2Cor 9:7 So let everyone give as he purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or out of necessity for the Lord loves the cheerful giver.



That means we are not supposed to give as the Pastor purposed in his heart, nor as the elders purposed in their hearts. This is an individual thing and it shows the freedom that God intended for the church to live in. The Bible says in 2Cor 11:19-20 and Gal 5:1 that we should fight for our liberty in Christ. To suggest that Christian has to give 10% of our income (in dollars) as a required amount, ruins the freedom of the believer and makes those that give less, feel second class and will ruin their joy in giving.



Shalom

tgallison
Mar 30th 2008, 12:16 AM
I agree it is from the OT and is no longer bound in the NT we are to be cheerful givers the passages that cover are giving now are 1st Cor 16:1-3 we can see we are to give upon the 1st day of the week. Then in 2nd Cor 9 and note verse 7. Also according to NT scriptures the only authority we have with that money is to Pay preachers and help needy Saints for the work of the church.

I have never known that we are to pay the elders and decons...

uric3 greetings

The best scripture on tithing IMO is Matthew 17:24-26.

Matthew 17:24-26 "And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free."

Jesus said to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and all thy mind, and all thy soul; and thy neighbor as thyself.

Where we put our money is the best expression of how much we love God.

Men have no shame though, they make God a beggar, telling you they are speaking for God.

We have a responsibility to make sure that the money we give in God's name goes to help widows and the poor and not to build temples. The money should bear fruit in souls saved, and sometimes there is a fine line in determinating what is most productive.

As good stewards we are responsible in how our money is used.

terrell

mikebr
Mar 30th 2008, 09:44 PM
The hardest part of a person to convert is their cheque-book. Jesus didn't annul anything in the Old Testament - He came to give us His Life so that we would happily give God first call on everything He entrusts to us - including the money.

This is the type of manipulation that we see way too much. " you must not be fully converted if you question tithes" The emperor is naked and we are made to feel "less than" if we say so. It no longer works on me.

mikebr
Mar 30th 2008, 09:52 PM
My biggest problem, and I realize that its my problem, is that I feel like I am giving to make myself comfortable. If I give so that we can have climate control, great sound, comfortable pews, cool lighting, multimedia tools, coffee, day care, then am I giving for the right reasons? If our churches would spend as much money on widows, orphans, single mothers/fathers, as we did on all this other stuff I wouldn't have my problem. I was thinking today that we are no different than a company who gives part of their profits back to the community.

Servant89
Mar 30th 2008, 11:57 PM
Under New Testament rules, we are called to give as follows:

Let everyone give as they purposed in their hearts, not grudgingly nor out of necessity for the Lord loves the cheerful giver.

God is not interested in our wallet, he is interested in our hearts.

If we decide to give to God, let it be done as Abraham did it (out of his own free will, when there was no law of tithing in effect).

It ruins God offering when people are forced to give, or are pressured to give, making them feel they are robbing God if they do not do it. That ruins the offering and the leaders are guilty big time for it.

Nowhere in the New Testament do we continue to do the laws that are connected to the temple (like tithing). Those laws are over. Even Jews do not tithe today because they do not have a temple or a levitical priesthood to receive it.

To tell the poor that they have to tithe is grossly sinful. Two more reasons for not teaching tithing in New Testament church.

Reason # 7. The teachings that tithing is a law that still exists today for the Christian church, and that Christians are robbing God when they fail to give 10% of their income to the church, are [B]commandments of men. They are nowhere to be found in the Bible. That did not come from God. God said the following regarding religious leaders that teach commandments of men:

MAT 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It is a fearful thing to have our hearts far from God or to find out that our worship to God was in vain as a result of teaching commandments of men.


Reason # 8. God warned the church about church leaders that will change the doctrine of God in order to extract money from the church members. Money was never accepted by God as a tithing offering. To teach that he demands 10% of our money is not biblical (it is a commandment of man.

2PE 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

JER 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land.
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means (see 1 Sam 2:12-17); and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

menJesus
Mar 31st 2008, 09:53 AM
My biggest problem, and I realize that its my problem, is that I feel like I am giving to make myself comfortable. If I give so that we can have climate control, great sound, comfortable pews, cool lighting, multimedia tools, coffee, day care, then am I giving for the right reasons? If our churches would spend as much money on widows, orphans, single mothers/fathers, as we did on all this other stuff I wouldn't have my problem. I was thinking today that we are no different than a company who gives part of their profits back to the community.

Well, as you were probably not the person who incorporated all that comfort into the building, I wouldn`t worry a lot about it... ;)

The important thing is: do the doors stay open? Can people come in and hear the Word of the Lord? Can they stay there and learn? Is the pastor available to the people?

People need to take another look at all this. Smaller churches are closing down DAILY for lack of funding, no way to pay the rent and utilities, or the pastor`s salary... people are lost because they have nowhere to go to hear the Word... no close church is open...

God said what He meant, and He meant what He said. We support our local grocery and Wal-Mart and McDonald`s by giving them our money for the goods and services we get - why not support the church?

If God provides the resources supernaturally, fine... otherwise we need to support our churches - more importantly, we need to pay our tithes and offerings, as God said...

If tithes and offerings supported the church and the "pastors" back in Jesus` day, whats the difference now?

God expects us to use wisdom, but He also expects us to use plain old common sense sometimes... forget Wal-Mart and McDonalds - what on earth could be more important than doing your part to keep the local churches open? and doing it cheerfully?

The church building is vital for the lost, as well as for the saved...

Ta-An
Mar 31st 2008, 10:20 AM
Freely you have received... so freely give.... and that is more than 10 % :D

groovemongrel
Apr 1st 2008, 02:46 PM
If somebody is going to formulate this extensive argument against tithing, he/she should just not do it at all. Like it was mentioned above, God wants a cheerful giver. If deep in his/her conscience they don't feel obligated, then just don't do it. Prayer will answer.

mikebr
Apr 1st 2008, 06:53 PM
Well, as you were probably not the person who incorporated all that comfort into the building, I wouldn`t worry a lot about it... ;)

The important thing is: do the doors stay open? Can people come in and hear the Word of the Lord? Can they stay there and learn? Is the pastor available to the people?

People need to take another look at all this. Smaller churches are closing down DAILY for lack of funding, no way to pay the rent and utilities, or the pastor`s salary... people are lost because they have nowhere to go to hear the Word... no close church is open...

God said what He meant, and He meant what He said. We support our local grocery and Wal-Mart and McDonald`s by giving them our money for the goods and services we get - why not support the church?

If God provides the resources supernaturally, fine... otherwise we need to support our churches - more importantly, we need to pay our tithes and offerings, as God said...

If tithes and offerings supported the church and the "pastors" back in Jesus` day, whats the difference now?

God expects us to use wisdom, but He also expects us to use plain old common sense sometimes... forget Wal-Mart and McDonalds - what on earth could be more important than doing your part to keep the local churches open? and doing it cheerfully?

The church building is vital for the lost, as well as for the saved...

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and He will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at His right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40 And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.”’ 41 ‘Then He will say to those at His left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45 Then He will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_life).’

Read this carefully. Is this what the church is doing?

menJesus
Apr 1st 2008, 10:30 PM
I read it, twice. But I don`t understand what it has to do with my post... :(

zarazara
Apr 1st 2008, 11:09 PM
I understand what you mean by starting this post and I have struggled with tithing many times myself. But the way I see it is that it is a commandment from the old testament but still a commandment anyway. And it is one that comes with a blessing. In Malachi 3:10, it says that if you bring your tithes:

"See if I won't open the windows of heaven for you and flood you with blessings that you will not have room enough for it."

Tithing is a way of sowing back to God's kingdom but one that comes with blessings too. Yes God loves a cheerful giver so we should all give willingly. But God also wants us to expand his kingdom and he commands obedience too and that may mean doing something just because He said it and because He's our father and older and wiser, we believe.

And I don't think tithing should be restricted to just the old testament...the old Testament tells us to respect our parents, don't steal, don't kill - does this mean that people should go out doing this because the old testament is no longer relevant?

Athanasius
Apr 1st 2008, 11:12 PM
And Abraham tithed. . . . Before the Old Covenant. . .

tgallison
Apr 3rd 2008, 12:45 PM
And Abraham tithed. . . . Before the Old Covenant. . .

Xel'Naga greetings

And who did Abraham tithe to? The King of Salem.

But what did Jesus say?

Matthew 17:25-26 "---. Jesus prevented him saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free."

terrell

menJesus
Apr 5th 2008, 09:53 PM
1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

mikebr
Apr 6th 2008, 12:17 AM
And Abraham tithed. . . . Before the Old Covenant. . .

Circumcision was before the Old Covenant too!;)

mikebr
Apr 6th 2008, 12:20 AM
I read it, twice. But I don`t understand what it has to do with my post... :(


Jesus seems to be telling us to spend our time and money feeding the poor, visiting those in prison, taking care of widows etc. Again what percentage of the money that is being given on Sunday mornings is going toward doing what Jesus said?

It seems to me that we will be goats or sheep according to what we do with the poor not what we give to keep the church building in operation.

Buck shot
Apr 6th 2008, 02:29 AM
1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

I think this says it all.

TheDayIsComing
Apr 6th 2008, 02:40 AM
I am with a church that gets into this tithing offering practice that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I feel that we cannot change what is written in The Bible as a matter of 'Principle' ...... that churches should be honest with their peoples be it paying their rent, pastor's salaries, deacon salaries, provision of needs for the 'Financially Poor' whereby telling them gospel truths and Jesus Christ and The Trinity is the best solution and only solution in resolving their 'Problems.'

That they be forthright and honest to their peoples if they need donations and not shoot the peoples back to the old covenant / offering of Tithing.

That only believing and having faith in Christ can bring about the Abrahamic Blessing unto everyone. ( Galatians Chapter 3 : 14 makes reference to Gentiles while Genesis, Exodus, Numbers & Deuteronomy describes 12 Tribes Of Israel).

What about The Samaritan Spirit Of A Cheerful Giver Rather Than Shooting Members Back To An Old Covenant That Is Imposing, Dictative By The Law & Offerings which is Tithing?

And that Tithing is an old covenant that is already abolished for Believers In Christ.

Upon reading the chapters in Hebrews Chapters 5, 6, 7, & 8....it is obvious that tithing is an old covenant as Jesus had taken over with the new covenant and we are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec made higher than the heavens.


Hebrews Chapter 5 :
6: As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
10: Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.



Hebrews Chapter 6 :
19: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20: Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews Chapter 7 :
21: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22: By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23: And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25: Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26: For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27: Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28: For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Hebrews Chapter 8 :
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


And Jesus seems to be unsupportive of The Scribes & Pharisees practising Tithing in many chapters of the bible :


Hebrews Chapter 10 : 8 -18

Acts 2 : 44 - 47

Romans 15 : 26 - 27

Mark 12 : 41-44

Mathew 23 : 23

Mathew 26 : 28

Mathew 10 : 9 - 10

Luke 11 : 42

Luke 21 : 1 - 6

Romans 15 - 26 - 27

Mathew 6 : 1 - 5

Luke 10 : 33 - 37

I agree, the old covenant held to the tithe. The covenant of grace is about being a cheerful giver. We should give where the Holy Spirit leads us to give whether that be 0%-100% whatever God would have us do. The old covenant was for those who did not have the Holy Spirit to lead and the way they twisted tithes to mean in todays churches is totally different from what the Bible says even in the old covenant.