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KnightwithDignity
Apr 2nd 2007, 12:55 AM
Rev 14

3...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Rev 7
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

144000
They are the servants of God
They go through the great tribulation.
They are from all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Question.
Who are they.

As Christians, we are included as the children of Israel by faith. We have been grafted in the true vine. We are heirs to the promises of Abraham. We are also considered a holy people, a nation dedicated to God.

Remembering also that there is now no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. We are as one.

Here is another question.
The writer of the book of James. Who was he writing to. As far as I have ever heard, he was writing to the Church.

James 1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

If he was writing to the Church, then here is further evidence that the 144 000 are Christian, for James was writing to the scattered bretheren.

This happened after the stoning of Stephen, when the church fled Jerusalem and scattered abroad. These are the ones to whom James was writing.

It must be taken into consideration, of course, that at this time, the Church only included born again Jews. No Gentiles had yet been converted.

Acts 8
1And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles

Acts 11
19Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

So just who are the 144 000

Ramon
Apr 2nd 2007, 01:02 AM
well it clearly states what tribes they are from so most people will say they are Jewish, HOWEVER, there are 10 lost tribes out there and many people have Jewish blood in them and do not even know it

seeker_truth
Apr 2nd 2007, 07:50 AM
well it clearly states what tribes they are from so most people will say they are Jewish, HOWEVER, there are 10 lost tribes out there and many people have Jewish blood in them and do not even know it
Ramon, The ten lost tribes are drawn out of the waters of Judah. Off hand, I can't remember the OT ch.& verse but will be glad to look it up for you.

Knight, The 144,000 are young Jewish virgin men from the tribes of Israel, who are followers of Christ. They are clearly listed in Rev.7.

seeker_truth

Ramon
Apr 2nd 2007, 12:58 PM
yes, the messianic Jewish movement is picking up, there are more people with Jewish ancestry and still keep the customs/traditions that believe than ever before ill say, or the 144, 000 could be specifically chosen by God, maybe through an angel like the prophets were.....

BeOfGoodCourage
Apr 2nd 2007, 01:28 PM
yes, the messianic Jewish movement is picking up, there are more people with Jewish ancestry and still keep the customs/traditions that believe than ever before ill say, or the 144, 000 could be specifically chosen by God, maybe through an angel like the prophets were.....

The other day I did some research on Jewish ancestry and the genetics involved. I was not surprised to find that the Jewish strain is found in almost every person on earth. Now this may seem like a revelation to some here but to me it only reinforced the Bible and the Gospel that tells us that salvation is for all people. It requires not one drip of blood to be related to Abraham because it is by faith that we are related, yet if we do have a genetic connection then it is also true in that way.

Dispensationalist desire to the depths within themselves to see the Jew come back to their homeland but with the genetic evidence available it is clear that we all can claim that option. However, we as believers are looking forward to a better home of heavenly propotions and this is the true promise to the descendents of Abraham who have a connection to him through the only one, the true Seed, Jesus Christ.

Jews who believe themselves to be the only descendents of Abraham can go to Israel if they want, but I plan on waiting and watching for the true Jerusalem - the Zion God prepared for all who believe on His Son.

th1bill
Apr 2nd 2007, 02:31 PM
Rev 14

3...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Rev 7
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

144000
They are the servants of God
They go through the great tribulation.
They are from all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Question.
Who are they.

As Christians, we are included as the children of Israel by faith. We have been grafted in the true vine. We are heirs to the promises of Abraham. We are also considered a holy people, a nation dedicated to God.

Remembering also that there is now no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. We are as one.

Here is another question.
The writer of the book of James. Who was he writing to. As far as I have ever heard, he was writing to the Church.

James 1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

If he was writing to the Church, then here is further evidence that the 144 000 are Christian, for James was writing to the scattered bretheren.

This happened after the stoning of Stephen, when the church fled Jerusalem and scattered abroad. These are the ones to whom James was writing.

It must be taken into consideration, of course, that at this time, the Church only included born again Jews. No Gentiles had yet been converted.

Acts 8
1And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles

Acts 11
19Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

So just who are the 144 000
I can't even believe you asked that question. While you will deny that your teaching anything, isn't there enough hate out there for God's chosen without stirring that pot?

Every non- jew that is seeking after the heart of God will go to Heaven and if it were just one hundred pagans a year that would make the total far in excess of 144,000. Study the size of Heaven, one corner sitting in Houston, Texas and the next corner to the west would sit in LA, Calif. Heaven is to stretch that far north and south and is to be that tall.

A 144,000 would jingle around in there like a BB in a box car. There will be so many Christians that the poor Jews that make it will feel lonely if left alone. Teach love, not yhate for God's chosen, they have a rough row to hoe.

third hero
Apr 2nd 2007, 04:13 PM
The 144,000 are Jewish Christians. They receive the seal of God on their foreheads, and they follow after Christ.

BeOfGoodCourage
Apr 2nd 2007, 04:55 PM
The 144,000 are Jewish Christians. They receive the seal of God on their foreheads, and they follow after Christ.

And since they were the first fruits of Christ's labor at the cross they are now standing before Him just as every other saint has since their physical death. This testimony is throughout the Bible and is the substance of the foreshadowing the feast of First Fruit represented. Christ - the First born and His people whom He took with Him on the train of His robe. They follow Him where ever He goes.

RogerW
Apr 2nd 2007, 08:51 PM
Has anyone ever considered that the 144,000 symbolize the elect pre-cross, or pre-Christ, who had died in faith looking for the promise of inheritance (Heb 11:13-16,19,39,40), but had not been sealed because Christ had not yet gone to the cross, and resurrected from the grave, proving to have defeated Satan and death?

RW

David Taylor
Apr 2nd 2007, 08:55 PM
Yep.....

And since the next verses go on to say describe the uncountable throng from every tribe and tongue, I think that is the most natural understanding of the 144K.

Chapter 14 even goes as far to tell us they are the firstfruits unto God.

If the 144K from Israel are described as the firstfruits of the harvest, and then right after that you have a description of the harvest from all tribes and nations....you have a snapshot of human history as it did unfold.

That is a much more natural and literal understanding, than ripping the 144K out of their venue, and moving them forward 2000+ years to the end of time, and making them the 'lastfruits' of the NT Harvest era.

BeOfGoodCourage
Apr 2nd 2007, 09:14 PM
Has anyone ever considered that the 144,000 symbolize the elect pre-cross, or pre-Christ, who had died in faith looking for the promise of inheritance (Heb 11:13-16,19,39,40), but had not been sealed because Christ had not yet gone to the cross, and resurrected from the grave, proving to have defeated Satan and death?

RW

That's what I was saying in my post #8 to TH

RogerW
Apr 2nd 2007, 09:36 PM
That's what I was saying in my post #8 to TH

I had picked up on that. Which is one of the reasons I came behind you to support that opinion.

RW

BeOfGoodCourage
Apr 2nd 2007, 10:29 PM
I had picked up on that. Which is one of the reasons I came behind you to support that opinion.

RW

oh the ambiguity of discussion boards, sigh. :spin:

IamRyan
Apr 2nd 2007, 11:33 PM
I can't even believe you asked that question. While you will deny that your teaching anything, isn't there enough hate out there for God's chosen without stirring that pot?

Every non- jew that is seeking after the heart of God will go to Heaven and if it were just one hundred pagans a year that would make the total far in excess of 144,000. Study the size of Heaven, one corner sitting in Houston, Texas and the next corner to the west would sit in LA, Calif. Heaven is to stretch that far north and south and is to be that tall.

A 144,000 would jingle around in there like a BB in a box car. There will be so many Christians that the poor Jews that make it will feel lonely if left alone. Teach love, not yhate for God's chosen, they have a rough row to hoe.

i really don't think that he was trying to be hateful or stir up evil. he was just asking a question, which to some who have vast experience in the Bible would know right away. Also, I think that Heaven is much more bigger than that, because there should be no limit to God's glory and also there are so many people that have died and gone to heaven.

KnightwithDignity
Apr 3rd 2007, 12:56 AM
To whom then was James writing his letter.

To Jews... Or Christians...

If James was writing to the Jews, then these are obviously born again christian Jews.

If he is writing to Christians in general, then to which tribe do we as gentiles come into.

Because his letter is addressed to

James 1
1 to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,


When reading the book of Acts, I note that the gentiles were already in the church before the church was being called christian.

The book of James was written before there were any gentiles in the church, or before the church was being called christian.

Yet I have always been taught that James was writing to the Christians.

What are your thoughts...

th1bill
Apr 3rd 2007, 03:15 AM
My post has very likely been misunderstood and that is my fault. I meant to answer the original post and in doing so was pointing out a matter of stewardship that is largely abandoned today.

To answer the immediate question, the twelve tribes are just that and a pagan gentile like myself are no part of them. We, by our repentance and belief are adopted or grafted in.

But to the important point. We are stewards, appointed by God, Himself. Therefore every word we publish, no matter the method, is a matter for serious consideration. To lightly banter is to allow ourselves to be misconstrued and this issue of the 144,000 is so loved by the differing elements of anti-sematics that it is dangerous to feed that snake. And anyone that has just lightly browsed the Bible knows that the Christian is to flee evil, not to wallow in it.

KnightwithDignity
Apr 3rd 2007, 09:00 AM
When talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, we are often told that there are 10 lost tribes.

So again, to whom then was James writing to...

According to my understanding of the scriptures, it is only ever the faithful remnant that God considered as His. And from reading the new testament, this would appear to be the understanding of Paul. In his letters, when He talks about the remnant, it is the Jews who have converted to Christianity.

The twelve tribes that James is writing to would therefore be the jewish christians who were scattered from Jerusalem after the start of the persecution of the church by Paul. It is estimated that there was between 7 and 10 years after the resurrection, before any Gentiles came into the Church.

If James is to be considered to writing to Christians, who at the time were only jewish, because no gentiles had yet come into the church, then that would make even the jewish believers, spiritual jews, because the qualification was, that they had to be born again.

Rom 2
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul wrote this about 15 years after the gentiles were in the church.

David Taylor
Apr 3rd 2007, 10:52 AM
James was writing to "****human beings****" in the hopes they would repent and turn to Jesus; whether his fellow countrymen, or his neighbors from afar.

Naphal
Apr 5th 2007, 07:21 AM
I definitely do not accept the Preterist posts and views of the 144,000 being a past group of people now dead.

The 144,000 are a group living now or in the near future. They are Christians because it says they follow the Lamb.

David Taylor
Apr 5th 2007, 12:27 PM
I definitely do not accept the Preterist posts and views of the 144,000 being a past group of people now dead.

The 144,000 are a group living now or in the near future. They are Christians because it says they follow the Lamb.


They were most definenately Christians.

They were the first Christians.

That is why in the verse that you reference, about them following the Lamb, John told us they were "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."


They can only be historical early Christians.

Your view would change the verse to read:

"These will be they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These will be redeemed from among men, eventually being the LASTfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Why not consider changing your viewpoint to harmonize with the text, that states the 144K were the firstfruits of the redeemed unto Christ? There are dozens of passages throughout the Gospels and Acts that show multitudes and great multitudes coming to Christ by the thousands upon thousands and thousands. That is the group John was describing.

Not some lastfruits group; after the NT harvest is completed.

Naphal
Apr 5th 2007, 10:10 PM
They were most definenately Christians.

They were the first Christians.


No, they are not the first Christians. They are the tribulation saints that withstand the Antichrist and live to be raptured.




That is why in the verse that you reference, about them following the Lamb, John told us they were "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."


They can only be historical early Christians.



Firstfruits means the best fruits of the harvest, the ones picked first. This related to the rapture when Christ takes these "fruits" out of the world to meet him when He returns. This is also found in Rev 14 the second half.

Litebeam
Apr 6th 2007, 03:31 PM
Here is how I am beginning to see things....

This life, all of human history, IS tribulation....GREAT tribulation for many....

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We battle against Satan, the fallen angels and the demonic, spiritual forces that "roam and rule" this world....

Satan's spirit IS in the world....

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Fortunately, GOD IS IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS....Satan can only test us as God allows....we are ALL being tested, as Job was tested. For some the testing is more intense, or severe, than it is for others.....nevertheless....OUR HEARTS ARE BEING TESTED.



( Those who have been "beheaded" for Christ.... )

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

THEY HAVE DIED TO THIS WORLD and the WAYS of THE WORLD ( beheaded ) AND HAVE TRULY MADE YAHU'SHUA THE LORD ( head ) OF THEIR LIFE....IN ALL WAYS.

As Our Heavenly Father has "enabled them" to do.

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( Over the centuries.... have become.... )

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

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( A mutitude.... )

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

( "some say" this "multitude" is actually a SECOND GROUP of 144,00 )....( it's a good theory....but the scripture says "a great multitude that NO MAN could number )

Nevertheless...."they" are "the few " who have been "enabled" by God ( all through human history ) to "OVERCOME"....SIN....SATAN.....and THE WORLD.

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( Next....we notice.... )

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

The 6th seal....Satan is cast to Earth...the Final End Times Delusion....SATAN and the fallen angels will IMPERSONATE....CHRIST and HIS Angels.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

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( Then we see....the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb....)

Their "fellow servants"....the "redeemed" from the Earth...."killed" as they were...."first fruits" unto the Lord....are those who will "Overcome" and Stand Against ( refuse to worship ) Satan....in these Last Days. ( 144,000 firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb )

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

YAHU'SHUA ( Jesus proper name ) IS....YHVH ( God's proper name )

Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They ( the 144,000 ) do not fall for the "false doctrine" perpetrated by the "women" or "church".

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

THESE....The Multitude ( the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, from under the alter ) and The First Fruits unto the Lord ( 144,000 firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb ) DO NOT WORSHIP THE BEAST....AND....

THEY SHALL "REIGN" WITH CHRIST!!! They are THE BRIDE OF CHRIST!!!

THIS....IS the First Resurrection....


Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They, 'The Overcomers" are TRULY IN CHRIST are REBORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT....THEY HAVE SPIRITUAL LIFE.

They have heeded the CALL TO BE HOLY given in GOD'S WORD and by the 7000 elect and have OVERCOME....SIN and SATAN. They have not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark ( they have not succumed to Satan's lies ) upon their foreheads, or in their hands ( they do not serve Satan ).....

The Overcomers KNOW that Satan is cast to earth before Christ returns and that Satan will CLAIM TO BE CHRIST.

The Overcomers will stand against Satan and the false angels in the last days.

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Some studies suggest that only the 7000 Elect who refused to bow the knee to Baal in the “First Earth Age” will be able to resist Satan in these end times. Satan will come first impersonating Christ and the whole world will fall for it.

--------

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

--------------------------------



2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP....SATAN!!!

Except for the 7000 elect who will sound the alarm and....


The 7000 Elect, or some of them at least will be delivered up…..


Luke 21:12
"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.


On account of…….MY NAME…….YAHU'SHUA ( Jesus proper name )....IS....YHVH ( God )



Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.


The Elect will speak in the Cloven Tongue that all men will hear in their own language as on the day of Pentecost.


The 144,000 will then hear what the Elect are saying and COME TO THEIR SENSES.

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As for "The Rest" who are DEAD IN THEIR SINS....


There is much confusion over Rev 20:5....the "first resurrection" part, is refering to the above mentioned, Over Comers....the Redeemed....the Bride of Christ....it applies to them....



Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The "rest of the dead" are the Vast Majority who have "not yet" been REBORN of GOD'S SPIRIT....the teeming masses of humanity.....they remain "spiritually dead" until the thousand years have transpired....until the White Throne Judgement.

They are "still subject" to the Second Death....in the Lake of Fire, which IS in fact....A FURTHER REFINEMENT IN THE FIRE OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT!

THEY will be judged according to their "works"....

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

-for our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29)


Guess what? That is where we all are right now! Wow!!! We ARE in the Fire of YHVH's HOLY SPIRIT....ALL OF US!!! There are "some" who have been "refined enough" to embrace the God and Father of all Creation through the circumstances of their 'Creator designed' lives. Many are not yet ready and....

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As for those who are redeemed....those who TRULY "are" REBORN of GOD'S SPIRIT....THE BRIDE OF CHRIST....

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The LORD IS THEIR INHERITENCE as it was for the LEVITICAL PRIESTS.....so it is for THEM.


Joshua 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance:

Eze 44:28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.

Psa 16:5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.


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Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

A NEW COVENANT!!!!!!!

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

MY LAW...IN....THEIR....HEARTS!!!!!!!

Pro 7:1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.

Pro 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Pro 7:3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.


KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!


Ezekiel 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


MY LAWS....IN....THEIR....HEARTS AND MINDS.


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Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS!!!!!


Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


A NEW CREATURE...ONE THAT....KEEPS GOD'S COMMANDMENTS


Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

DiscipleDave
Apr 8th 2007, 04:27 PM
There is not a single one of us, that is not related to someone of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

In everyone of our Family Tree, there is a person who belonged to one of the twelve tribes of Israel. We then are all decendants of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. You may not know which, but Christ does. Abraham seed is like unto the number of stars ( Billions and Billions ). Take back our Family Tree far enough, it would even go back to Adam and Eve. So it is not likely that any of us, do not have in our Family Tree, at least one person who was related to the Billions and Billions of the seed of Abraham.

My point is this, if there is one person in our Family Tree, within the last 4,000 years, that belonged to one of the twelve tribes of Israel, then we also are decendants of that tribe, therefore belonging to one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Litebeam
Apr 8th 2007, 05:05 PM
Here's a little more info I found on that subject DiscipleDave


Israel’s Migrations....

What happened to the Israelites who were taken captive by the Assyrians? The Bible tells us that they were settled near the River Gozan and in the cities of the Medes. Gozan was a tributary of the northern Euphrates River. The cities of the Medes were in the area just south of Armenia, between the Black and Caspian Seas.

The apocryphal book of 2 Esdras, written a century or so prior to the time of Christ, records the tradition that had been preserved among the Jews. "Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land… and he [Shalmaneser] carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land. But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt… And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow passages of the river" (13:40–43).

To say that the migrating Israelites followed the "narrow passages of the river" simply means that they went northward through the narrow mountain passes of the headwaters of the Euphrates. This took them north of the Caucasus Mountains and on to the northern shore of the Black Sea. This is exactly where history places the Cimmerians, who later traveled up the Danube and Rhine River basins into northwestern Europe.

The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel ARE the Caucasian People.

shootingdead
Apr 8th 2007, 07:27 PM
Here is how I am beginning to see things....hi Litebeam sorry i found that quite hard to follow, is there any chance you could summarise it to make is simple for me to understand?

Litebeam
Apr 10th 2007, 05:17 AM
shootingdead

My apologies...it is actually a condensed version of many of the complex matters I've written about in recent years. I am sorry it is hard to follow. Rather than summarizing further, I can only suggest reading the full versions of these writings on my website. The link is given in the post. It is only with indepth study ( especially of God's Word ) of these many and complex matters that increased understanding is likely to occur.

seeker_truth
Apr 11th 2007, 08:10 AM
Ramon, The ten lost tribes are drawn out of the waters of Judah. Off hand, I can't remember the OT ch.& verse but will be glad to look it up for you.

Knight, The 144,000 are young Jewish virgin men from the tribes of Israel, who are followers of Christ. They are clearly listed in Rev.7.

seeker_truth

Just wanted to add that these 144K prophets will walk the land of Israel and not the world.

seeker_truth

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 04:49 PM
No, they are not the first Christians. They are the tribulation saints that withstand the Antichrist and live to be raptured.

They are the firstfruits, not the lastfruits.



Firstfruits means the best fruits of the harvest, the ones picked first. This related to the rapture when Christ takes these "fruits" out of the world to meet him when He returns. This is also found in Rev 14 the second half.

So, you're saying God is a respecter of persons? God makes no distinction among believers. He loves us all the same. We are all one in Christ Jesus with each member being a vital part of the body of Christ.

In James 1:18 we can see that James uses the word firstfruits as pertaining to those who first believed in the gospel of Christ. When Christ is described as the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead, what does that mean? It means that He was the first to be resurrected from the dead and given a new glorified resurrected body. As it says in 1 Corinthians 15:23, "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at His coming". Christ was resurrected first. At His coming, we will be resurrected as well and have an immortal, incorruptible body like He has. You need to interpret the term firstfruits the way it is used in other Scripture. It does not mean selective fruits, it means the firstfruits which come before the lastfruits.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1219248#post1219248)
No, they are not the first Christians. They are the tribulation saints that withstand the Antichrist and live to be raptured.

They are the firstfruits, not the lastfruits.

Firstfruits has nothing to do with those who were first Christians.




Quote:
Firstfruits means the best fruits of the harvest, the ones picked first. This related to the rapture when Christ takes these "fruits" out of the world to meet him when He returns. This is also found in Rev 14 the second half.
So, you're saying God is a respecter of persons? God makes no distinction among believers. He loves us all the same. We are all one in Christ Jesus with each member being a vital part of the body of Christ.


God is a respecter of persons when some Christians fall away in Apostasy and others remain faithful. The 144,000 stay faithful in the trib and do not bow to the Antichrist or take the mark.




As it says in 1 Corinthians 15:23, "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at His coming".

That alone should correct any mistakes. The firstfruits are certain people that belong to Christ AT HIS COMING, not at his leaving.



It does not mean selective fruits, it means the firstfruits which come before the lastfruits.


It means selective fruits. Ask any farmer.


Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 05:20 PM
Firstfruits has nothing to do with those who were first Christians.

And your evidence for this is...?



God is a respecter of persons when some Christians fall away in Apostasy and others remain faithful. The 144,000 stay faithful in the trib and do not bow to the Antichrist or take the mark.

Sorry, that makes no sense. How is it God's fault that some people fall away in apostasy?



That alone should correct any mistakes. The firstfruits are certain people that belong to Christ AT HIS COMING, not at his leaving.

No, it says Christ is the firstfruits. Read it again. And I'm not saying that Christ being the firstfruits is the same as the 144,000 firstfruits. I'm just illustrating what the term firstfruits means.



It means selective fruits. Ask any farmer.

Good grief, you're relying on farmers for understanding of the Bible? Come on. :rolleyes:



Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.

The best of the world in God's eyes are those who have the righteous of Christ, which includes everyone who is saved. Scripture repeatedly reminds us that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, Col 3:25, James 2:9, 1 Peter 1:17).

RogerW
Apr 11th 2007, 06:36 PM
Sorry about the length of the following study of firstfruits, I tried to be thorough. I thought it important to show the difference between firstfruits in the Old and New. I hope it proves to be beneficial.

The OT word ‘firstfruits’ is defined in the Hebrew:
1061 bikkuwr bik-koor' from 1069 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=1069); the first-fruits of the crop:--first fruit (-ripe (figuratively)), hasty fruit.

1069 bakar baw-kar' a primitive root; properly, to burst the womb, i.e. (causatively) bear or make early fruit (of woman or tree); also (as denominative from 1061 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=1061)) to give the birthright:--make firstborn, be firstling, bring forth first child (new fruit).

7225 re'shiyth ray-sheeth' from the same as 7218 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=7218); the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

7218 ro'sh roshe from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.):--band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

In 14 verses in the OT firstfruits is defined from 1061 meaning the first ripened crop to be harvested.

In the remaining 12 verses it is defined from 7225 which is more specific in that it is not only the first crop, but the very best of the first ripened crop.

In the majority of the OT passages firstfruits speak of the literal harvest from the fruit of the land. God specifies not only that the oblation should be from the first ripened crop, but also that it should be made with the very best of this first ripe crop, whether it be beast or produce.

There are two passages in the OT where God calls Israel the first fruits (7225 the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing). And Samaria is called chief of the nations, (7225) to whom the house of Israel came!

Jer. 2:3 Israel [was] holiness unto the LORD, [and] the first fruits [7225] of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.

Amos 6:1 ¶ Woe to them [that are] at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, [which are] named chief of the nations [7225], to whom the house of Israel came!

Chief: 7225 re'shiyth ray-sheeth' from the same as 7218 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=7218); the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

7218 ro'sh roshe from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.):--band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top

In Jeremiah 31 we find similar language calling Jacob the chief of the nations and Ephraim the Lords first born (1060 bkowr bek-ore' from 1069 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=1069); firstborn; hence, chief:--eldest (son), firstborn(-ling).) 1069 bakar baw-kar' a primitive root; properly, to burst the womb, i.e. (causatively) bear or make early fruit (of woman or tree); also (as denominative from 1061 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=1061)) to give the birthright:--make firstborn, be firstling, bring forth first child (new fruit).

Jer. 31:7 ¶ For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the (((remnant of Israel)))

Jer. 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, [and] with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither

Jer. 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and (((Ephraim my firstborn.)))

Chief: 7218 ro'sh roshe from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.):--band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

Looking at these OT passages is there any question that Old Testament believers from Israel are called the firstfruits, chief, and firstborn unto God? What about New Testament believers? Are they also called the firstfruits, chief, or firstborn unto God?

Firstfruits: 536. aparche [I]ap-ar-khay' from a compound of 575 and 756; a beginning of sacrifice, i.e. the (Jewish) first-fruit (figuratively):--first-fruits.

575. apo apo' a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

756. archomai ar'-khom-ahee middle voice of 757 (through the implication, of precedence); to commence (in order of time):--(rehearse from the) begin(-ning).

Ro. 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

This verse doesn’t say New Testament Christians are first fruits, it says we have the first fruits of the Spirit. The firstfruits of the Spirit in the New Testament is not like the Spirit we read of in the Old Testament. He abides "in" the NT believer forever, where He abided "with" believers from the OT. New Testament Christians have the firstfruits of the Spirit abiding in them, but I don’t think this verse can be used to prove we are called the first fruits unto the Lord.

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Ac 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Ro. 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

This is the only reference to firstfruit in the Bible (with the exception of De. 18:4 where it is defined 7225 and speaks literally of corn, wine, oil, and first of the fleece of the sheep) which is used in the singular. I believe it refers to Christ who is the Holy One and the Root. It is only because He is holy that the lump and branches are also called holy.

Ro. 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

This verse is not calling this convert to Christianity the firstfruits,it is simply saying that Epaenetus (meaning praiseworthy) is among the first in Achaia (a Roman province) to be converted through the gospel of peace.

1 Co. 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ became the firstfruits by defeating death on behalf of all His people who had slept (been spiritually dead).

1 Co. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

In context this is speaking of being raised from the dead. This is saying that Christ the firstfruits was first to be resurrected to life, and when He comes again all who have died in Him will also be resurrected to life.

1 Co. 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

This verse like Ro. 16:5 is not calling Stephanas the firstfruits, it is simply saying that he and his house are among the first converts to Christianity in Corinth.

Jam. 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

This verse does not say New Testament Christians are firstfruits of the Lord. It says we are a “kind” of firstfruits of his creatures. God has made a certain kind, or specific being i.e. human beings to be the firstfruits of all things (creatures) created. It is only humans who are the begotten with the word of truth.

Rev. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This verse in context is speaking of 144,000 who have their Fathers name written on their foreheads. Verse 5 says they are without fault before the Lamb of God. They are in heaven. Then in verse 6 we read: “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,”. Every nation, kindred, and tongue, and people can only be referring to the New Testament era. Can you see how this verse is speaking about the OT Jewish believer? These 144,000 who are called first fruits unto God are Old Testament saints who have lived and died, and now John is seeing them reigning in heaven before the gospel of salvation has been sent unto the whole world.

Christ is the firstfruit and then the Old Testament saints are called the firstfruits, meaning they are the first to be resurrected to life after Christ.

RW

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1223971#post1223971)
Firstfruits has nothing to do with those who were first Christians.

And your evidence for this is...?

Scriptural context about who those 144k are and what time frame it is concerning plus other scriptures such as the one I posted in the end of my post.




Quote:
God is a respecter of persons when some Christians fall away in Apostasy and others remain faithful. The 144,000 stay faithful in the trib and do not bow to the Antichrist or take the mark.
Sorry, that makes no sense. How is it God's fault that some people fall away in apostasy?


I didnt say it's God's fault. I said God treats people differently. God is only not a respecter of persons in some ways, in other ways he very much is.






Quote:
That alone should correct any mistakes. The firstfruits are certain people that belong to Christ AT HIS COMING, not at his leaving.
No, it says Christ is the firstfruits. Read it again.

It also is speaking of those who shall be firstfruits after him, read it again.






Quote:
It means selective fruits. Ask any farmer.
Good grief, you're relying on farmers for understanding of the Bible? Come on. :rolleyes:


Uh, yeah I am and if you knew scripture better you'd understand why they would be able to understand huge portions of scripture better than people who were not accustomed to farming life. It speaks volumes to me that you reacted in this manner as if farmers are not intelligent enough to understand this.




Quote:
Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
The best of the world in God's eyes are those who have the righteous of Christ, which includes everyone who is saved.


The firstfruits are the best of the harvest or the best of any category as seen in that verse. The Christians that remain faithful are respected more by God than the Christians that fell away in Apostasy.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 07:23 PM
Rev. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This verse in context is speaking of 144,000 who have their Fathers name written on their foreheads. Verse 5 says they are without fault before the Lamb of God. They are in heaven. Then in verse 6 we read: “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,”. Every nation, kindred, and tongue, and people can only be referring to the New Testament era. Can you see how this verse is speaking about the OT Jewish believer? These 144,000 who are called first fruits unto God are Old Testament saints who have lived and died, and now John is seeing them reigning in heaven before the gospel of salvation has been sent unto the whole world.

Christ is the firstfruit and then the Old Testament saints are called the firstfruits, meaning they are the first to be resurrected to life after Christ.

RW

The 144k are not OT saints but are those sealed with God's seal just prior to the start of the tribulation. That seal helps them stay faithful to God and not take the mark of the beast. It is they that are the raptured ones when Christ returns, a literal "plucking" of these human "fruits" known as the firstfruits of the rapture harvest. This is also details in Rev 14 the last half where Christ gathers up those he wants from the field. The first ones reaped at the second coming are the firstfruits, the 144k

RogerW
Apr 11th 2007, 07:47 PM
The 144k are not OT saints but are those sealed with God's seal just prior to the start of the tribulation. That seal helps them stay faithful to God and not take the mark of the beast. It is they that are the raptured ones when Christ returns, a literal "plucking" of these human "fruits" known as the firstfruits of the rapture harvest. This is also details in Rev 14 the last half where Christ gathers up those he wants from the field. The first ones reaped at the second coming are the firstfruits, the 144k

Interesting, could you offer proof from Scripture? The 144 thousand are the same we read of in Rev 7, and there they are called all the tribes of the children of Israel.

RW

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 08:07 PM
Interesting, could you offer proof from Scripture? The 144 thousand are the same we read of in Rev 7, and there they are called all the tribes of the children of Israel.

RW

You make it sound like Israel only existed in the OT.


Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 144k have to be sealed before the four winds can be released. This is symbolic of the end time events being held back until this is accomplished. The seal is specifically designed to thwart the mark of the beast from being put upon them. This seal identifies them spiritually as belonging to God and protects them as a seal protects the contents of a scroll from the wrong persons opening it.

RogerW
Apr 11th 2007, 09:23 PM
You make it sound like Israel only existed in the OT.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 144k have to be sealed before the four winds can be released. This is symbolic of the end time events being held back until this is accomplished. The seal is specifically designed to thwart the mark of the beast from being put upon them. This seal identifies them spiritually as belonging to God and protects them as a seal protects the contents of a scroll from the wrong persons opening it.

I don't call them all the tribes of the children of Israel, the Bible does. I do not agree that this sealing is coming near the end of time. I believe Rev 7 shows us the end of the OT era, and the beginning of the Kingdom era through the establishment of the universal church in time. Look closely at Rev 7 the wind is not what is given to hurt, it is the angels (messengers of the gospel) who are told, "and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." Notice also it says it is four winds holding back "the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree." I believe the four winds symbolize the universal nature of the Holy Spirit being held back until a specific time in redemptive history, e.g. Pentecost. When the "wind" (singular) is released, then the messengers of the gospel (angels) come with the Word of God which is SWORD, and unto some it is the Word of life through the wind (Holy Spirit), and to others death.

RW

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 09:50 PM
It also is speaking of those who shall be firstfruits after him, read it again.

Where does it say that? As a reminder, we were talking about 1 Corinthians 15:23.



Uh, yeah I am and if you knew scripture better you'd understand why they would be able to understand huge portions of scripture better than people who were not accustomed to farming life. It speaks volumes to me that you reacted in this manner as if farmers are not intelligent enough to understand this.

If I knew Scripture better? Nice subtle insult there. You missed what I meant. A Christian farmer has understanding, sure. You are completely off base if you took that as me saying that farmers aren't intelligent. Of course they are! But a non-Christian farmer does not have understanding of God's Word. We need to see how the Bible itself defines the term firstfruits and not anyone else. That is my point. And I see that RogerW has done an exhaustive study of the term as used in the Bible and I'd prefer to read that than let a farmer tell me what firstfruits means to a farmer, as if that automatically applies to the 144,000 as well.



The firstfruits are the best of the harvest or the best of any category as seen in that verse. The Christians that remain faithful are respected more by God than the Christians that fell away in Apostasy.

"Christians" that fall away are not Christians at all. That is where you are mistaken. Those who fall away have head knowledge and go to church and supposedly do all the right things. They will say to Jesus on Judgment day things like, "But Lord, Lord, we did all these amazing things. Why aren't you letting us into your kingdom"? But they don't know Christ on a personal level. Those are the ones who will fall away. They are not actually Christians at all, but are proven to be pretenders and are easily seduced away from the faith because their houses are not built upon the Rock.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 10:14 PM
I don't call them all the tribes of the children of Israel, the Bible does. I do not agree that this sealing is coming near the end of time. I believe Rev 7 shows us the end of the OT era, and the beginning of the Kingdom era through the establishment of the universal church in time.

That's because you are most likely a Preterist and would see things like this in the past tense while I see most of Revelation in a future context which was it's intent.



Look closely at Rev 7 the wind is not what is given to hurt, it is the angels Word of life through the wind (Holy Spirit), and to others death.

And if you look even more closely you will read


Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The angels hold the winds that will be released to start doing this end times harm. It is the winds that do hurt not the angels. The angels restrain the wind and when they release the winds, the winds shall do their damage.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1224216#post1224216)
It also is speaking of those who shall be firstfruits after him, read it again.

Where does it say that? As a reminder, we were talking about 1 Corinthians 15:23.

Yes I know. It says it in the verse:


1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.





Quote:
Uh, yeah I am and if you knew scripture better you'd understand why they would be able to understand huge portions of scripture better than people who were not accustomed to farming life. It speaks volumes to me that you reacted in this manner as if farmers are not intelligent enough to understand this.
If I knew Scripture better? Nice subtle insult there.


Not meant as an insult, just a statement of fact from what you said. Much of scripture is written in the symbology of farming so your statement revealed that you were not aware of this. As I said, any farmer would know what the firstfruits of his harvest would be. He certainly wouldn't think it's the first fruits he ever grew as you are saying.





You missed what I meant. A Christian farmer has understanding, sure. You are completely off base if you took that as me saying that farmers aren't intelligent. Of course they are! But a non-Christian farmer does not have understanding of God's Word.

Naturally but they do have understanding of farming analogies, hence my statement to ask any farmer what first fruits of a harvest are.




We need to see how the Bible itself defines the term firstfruits and not anyone else. That is my point.

And I have done that:

Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.


HHereteh best of each thing is called the first fruits.




Quote:
The firstfruits are the best of the harvest or the best of any category as seen in that verse. The Christians that remain faithful are respected more by God than the Christians that fell away in Apostasy.
"Christians" that fall away are not Christians at all.


They were which is why the term Apostasy can apply to them. One cannot fall away from God if one was never with God.

RogerW
Apr 12th 2007, 02:35 AM
That's because you are most likely a Preterist and would see things like this in the past tense while I see most of Revelation in a future context which was it's intent.

And if you look even more closely you will read

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The angels hold the winds that will be released to start doing this end times harm. It is the winds that do hurt not the angels. The angels restrain the wind and when they release the winds, the winds shall do their damage.

If I were Preterist I would be arguing for AD 70, not the beginning of the church which began with Christ establishing the church, and to
finish building of the Kingdom after His cross and resurrection. This is not past tense, this is during the life time of John. John was one of the original twelve, chosen by Christ to build His Church.

Re 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Re 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and HE CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE TO THE FOUR ANGELS,TO WHOM IT WAS GIVEN TO HURT THE EARTH AND THE SEA, he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Re 7:3 SAYING, HURT NOT THE EARTH, NEITHER THE SEA, NOR THE TREES, TILL WE HAVE SEALED THE SERVANTS OF OUR GOD IN THEIR FORHEADS.


Look at the verses in bold and captilized, they tell us the angel ascending from the east SPOKE to the four angels (messengers of the gospel), telling THEM not to hurt the earth and sea. All that this says of the four winds is that they held back the WIND so that it would not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. There is nothing in this passage to suggest that the wind brings hurt near the end of time. This is reading into Scripture what is not there. Why would you assume from this passage that wind blowing on the earth and sea is bringing end time harm?

RW

Naphal
Apr 12th 2007, 02:54 AM
If I were Preterist I would be arguing for AD 70, not the beginning of the church which began with Christ establishing the church, and to
finish building of the Kingdom after His cross and resurrection. This is not past tense, this is during the life time of John. John was one of the original twelve, chosen by Christ to build His Church.

Re 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Re 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and HE CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE TO THE FOUR ANGELS,TO WHOM IT WAS GIVEN TO HURT THE EARTH AND THE SEA, he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Re 7:3 SAYING, HURT NOT THE EARTH, NEITHER THE SEA, NOR THE TREES, TILL WE HAVE SEALED THE SERVANTS OF OUR GOD IN THEIR FORHEADS.


Look at the verses in bold and captilized, they tell us the angel ascending from the east SPOKE to the four angels (messengers of the gospel), telling THEM not to hurt the earth and sea. All that this says of the four winds is that they held back the WIND so that it would not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. There is nothing in this passage to suggest that the wind brings hurt near the end of time. This is reading into Scripture what is not there. Why would you assume from this passage that wind blowing on the earth and sea is bringing end time harm?

RW

If you're not Preterist then please share what you are, thank you.

I believe the context is clear that the angels only hold back the winds and that the winds are what shall do any harm to the things of the earth.


"to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea" via the winds they are holding.

Anyways, back to the 144k and first fruits. I believe the 144k are future, sealed before the tribulation and meet Christ after the tribulation.

You have a Preterist view that first fruits are the first Christians and that all the sealing and winds etc are long past events etc etc.

I'm not sure what more can be said or offered in support of each others views. I think the view points of Futurists and Preterists will always be somewhat opposites in cases such as this.

Ezekiel_37
Apr 12th 2007, 07:04 AM
144,000 Jews or Christians


well,

12,000 from each tribe. Jews are only 1-12 of the tribes of Israel/Jacob, and not as many teach the whole Israel. The prophetic pattern suggests two separate prophecies for these groups in the End Days. If Israel is indeed comprised of Christians, that may change the way many see the Prophecies in the Bible. After all, if it is written to us, and not just the Jew, that changes everything....doesn't it?


only one tribe is Judah (Jews)

so, the remainder are of the scattered tribes.

If you believe (as I do) that the scattered tribes have become other peoples, and if you see the prophecies of God concerning the descendants of Joseph's children, you may believe (as I do) that the 144,000 are indeed Christians...or mostly anyway.

It is my understanding that there is another group called elect (separate from the 144,000) that God also points us to. 7,000 that won't bow to Satan(or as the 'type' alludes-Baal). These 7,000 are sealed before the Tribulation. The 144,000 are not sealed before but during the Tribulation. That is why I feel that they are 2 separate #ed groups.

But Christian, with possibly 12, 000 Jews.(I mistakenly said 7,000 Jews, and have edited it to read 12,000)


so, by my recollection,

144,000-12,000=132,000....+ 7,000=139,000.


And that is only if the #'s are literal, which I do not think that they are. I think we are given the #ed values to point us to the biblical numeric and to what those #'s stand for.

Naphal
Apr 12th 2007, 07:25 AM
It is my understanding that there is another group called elect (separate from the 144,000) that God also points us to. 7,000 that won't bow to Satan(or as the 'type' alludes-Baal). These 7,000 are sealed before the Tribulation.




These 7000 you speak of. Can you document that these are sealed before the triobulation and that they have an active role during the tribulation? Please quote relevant scriptures.



The 144,000 are not sealed before but during the Tribulation.




Please provide documentation for this also, thank you.

RogerW
Apr 12th 2007, 03:32 PM
If you're not Preterist then please share what you are, thank you.
I believe the context is clear that the angels only hold back the winds and that the winds are what shall do any harm to the things of the earth.
"to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea" via the winds they are holding.
Anyways, back to the 144k and first fruits. I believe the 144k are future, sealed before the tribulation and meet Christ after the tribulation.
You have a Preterist view that first fruits are the first Christians and that all the sealing and winds etc are long past events etc etc.
I'm not sure what more can be said or offered in support of each others views. I think the view points of Futurists and Preterists will always be somewhat opposites in cases such as this.

My view of eschatology is from an amil perspective. The context does NOT show the winds will do harm to the earth. The messenger (angel) ascending from the east (which I believe is Christ) tells the four (which again and again in Scripture symbolizes universality) messengers of the gospel (angels) that they may not hurt the earth and sea (they cannot bring the message of the cross yet, because up to this point the crucifixion has not happened) until Christ's servants have been sealed. The passage in NO way says the winds are bringing this hurt.

What happens after the 144,000 servants are sealed? John hears the number that are sealed from all the tribes of the children of Israel. After this John sees a great multitude which no man can number from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. Very obviously Christ is making a distinction between the elect saints redeemed prior to the cross, and the elect saints redeemed after the cross.

The passage tells us that it is the great multitude that comes out of great tribulation, but this is not said of the 144,000 before the cross. Why? I believe it is because these lived and died in faith prior to the cross looking forward to the promise of the cross that had not yet been realized. These 144,000 had not yet received the promise (see Hebrews), but they died in faith, knowing that God would keep His promise to give them a city in heaven whose builder and maker is God.

This is the reason these OT saints had to be sealed, to show they are the redeemed who died in faith, and went to the grave to await fulfillment through the promised Messiah. Once Christ literally went to the cross in time, and was resurrected from the grave then these OT siants received the promised inheritance. Christ the firstfruit, then these OT firstfruits, and finally the great multitude that no man can number who come out of great tribulation. In other words the great multitude are all those redeemed after the cross or during the Kingdom era.

This is what Rev 7 shows us. The 144,000 saints redeemed from the OT era, then we see a picture of Pentecost where the Holy Spirit is sent to indwell all who will beleive, and the universal gospel message through the messengers (angels) going into all the world, and this is how the great multitude which no man can number come into the Kingdom of God through the Word of Truth, which is likened to a SWORD that brings life to the elect of God through the Holy Spirit, and it brings hurt or death to those who have not been chosen from the foundation of the world to receive eternal life.

RW

Ezekiel_37
Apr 12th 2007, 05:55 PM
Hello Naphal, is your handle a Hebrew word...seems close to "Fallen".


These 7000 you speak of. Can you document that these are sealed before the triobulation and that they have an active role during the tribulation? Please quote relevant scriptures.

The site will not allow me to paste scripture at the moment, so I will give you the verses.

The 7,000 are #ed in Rom11:2-8 (verse 3 leads us to the historical "type" in 1Kings19:18)

Gospel account of the elect in the end days

Mat10:16-22
Mat24:9-13
Mar13:9-13
Luke21:12-19

The 7,000 have a job to do, to witness to the entire world (via tv?) right in front of the Antichrist, who is also called Death, for a final witness to mankind before Our Lord returns. They tell who is really who, But God's Holy Spirit does the speaking through them.



Please provide documentation for this also, thank you.

You said this in reference to my comment about the 144,000 being sealed in the Tribulation, as opposed to before it.

Documentation:

Rev 7 is during the Tribulation. The sealed are sealed during that time.
Rev 14 details this, as they became virgins, standing as chased virgins with Christ. These come to understanding during the witness of the 7,000, at the end of the Tribulation.


maybe the computer or site will allow me to post scripture (copy/paste) later.

I hope that helps explain my understanding.

Naphal
Apr 12th 2007, 10:34 PM
Hello Naphal, is your handle a Hebrew word...seems close to "Fallen".

Yes it's taken from the word that means to fall.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1224870#post1224870)
These 7000 you speak of. Can you document that these are sealed before the triobulation and that they have an active role during the tribulation? Please quote relevant scriptures.

The site will not allow me to paste scripture at the moment, so I will give you the verses.

The 7,000 are #ed in Rom11:2-8 (verse 3 leads us to the historical "type" in 1Kings19:18)






Romans 11:
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ok but how do you go from the historical reference to the OT that Paul makes and there being a group of 7000 special people in the end times? I'll look up the verses you quote and we'll see if any mention 7000.




Gospel account of the elect in the end days

Mat10:16-22


Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matthew 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

But nothing here specifies this supposed end times group of 7000. Why do you believe this is done by this 7000 and not the 144k?




Mat24:9-13


Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Same comments as above.


Mar13:9-13


Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Same comments as above.




Luke21:12-19


Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luke 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luke 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

And same comments here also. Nothing in these say anything about this group of 7000.

Now, the only group of 7000 mentioned in the endtimes specifically by number is here:


Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

But I already know you think these 7000 men are actually 7000 fallen angels killed by God but there really is no scriptural backing for that is there? It's a belief. I submit these men are actual human men. What they are doing there is debateable. I believe it is possible they could have been there testifying before the Antichrist as they had been brought up before him.




You said this in reference to my comment about the 144,000 being sealed in the Tribulation, as opposed to before it.

Documentation:

Rev 7 is during the Tribulation. The sealed are sealed during that time.


Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7 is not the tribulation. It clearly shows the sealing before the winds being let loose which I believe would be the beginning of the trib so this actually shows them sealed before the tribulation and that makes sense as God wants to prepare them before the trib begins.

Naphal
Apr 13th 2007, 01:21 AM
My view of eschatology is from an amil perspective. The context does NOT show the winds will do harm to the earth.

Then we'll have to disagree because that's exactly what is going to do harm to the trees and so forth.


The messenger (angel) ascending from the east (which I believe is Christ) tells the four (which again and again in Scripture symbolizes universality) messengers of the gospel (angels) that they may not hurt the earth and sea (they cannot bring the message of the cross yet, because up to this point the crucifixion has not happened) until Christ's servants have been sealed. The passage in NO way says the winds are bringing this hurt.

The message of the cross doesn't cause hurt to us so I reject that interpretation wholly. It is the winds held back by the angels that will do this damage and it has nothing to do with the cross.


Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

"wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree"

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees"


"wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree"
"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, til..."

Angels will not directly harm anything. It's the wind that shall.


What happens after the 144,000 servants are sealed? John hears the number that are sealed from all the tribes of the children of Israel. After this John sees a great multitude which no man can number from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. Very obviously Christ is making a distinction between the elect saints redeemed prior to the cross, and the elect saints redeemed after the cross.

Actually it's the distinction between those saved after the tribulation and the total saved of all history. There is no reason to think only 144k of Israel only were saved before the cross. The idea is not even considerable IMO.

Ezekiel_37
Apr 13th 2007, 04:27 AM
Ok but how do you go from the historical reference to the OT that Paul makes and there being a group of 7000 special people in the end times? I'll look up the verses you quote and we'll see if any mention 7000.

.....

But nothing here specifies this supposed end times group of 7000. Why do you believe this is done by this 7000 and not the 144k?
There are many reasons why. Paul is teaching that; even though you think that you are alone, God has others ready to Work for Him. Paul teaches about a story of Elijah, and similar circumstances. Those delivered to the Antichrist are obviously elect. You did not dispute that. The time frame suggests to me that there has always been a reminent, hence always will be election. There is not going to be any time when there is not those "chosen", hence there must be some "chosen" before the Trib.

There are the sealed (at this point)before the Trib, before Rev7, before the trumps. The point that I am making is that the 7000 witness to the 144k, and the rest of the populous. The 144k are placed with Christ after these events, and are declaired virgins , at the 7th trump, detailed in Rev14.

Christ teaches in the Gospel accounts of the end days, that 5 of 10 aren't going to be virgins, and wait for His return. Instead they will be with child (spiritually), therefore not staying faithful to the true Messiah.

The words "very elect" are used in Mat24:24.

The winds of Rev7 are sent, but don't go to work yet until the sealing is complete. Since the sealing isn't complete yet, and we already know that there is a reminent (always-)so there must be an "election" before, and a completion of that election after. So, we have the order to seal, and the winds wait, and the Trib. happens, and the elect who have become sealed are spoken of in Rev14. The winds are released as God's wrath after the 7th trump, in chapter15.



Now, the only group of 7000 mentioned in the endtimes specifically by number is here:
Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

But I already know you think these 7000 men are actually 7000 fallen angels killed by God but there really is no scriptural backing for that is there? It's a belief. I submit these men are actual human men. What they are doing there is debateable. I believe it is possible they could have been there testifying before the Antichrist as they had been brought up before him.
Well, we differ on who the 7000 of Rev11 are. Yes I believe them to be the Nephilium. Have you noticed that Satan tries to emulate God? Satan has 7000, and God also has 7000. And these Chapter 11 men(geber) are killed, in the city to which we are told to flee from. It seems logical to me that since they are refered to as Mighty men(might in evil), they are indeed the Nephilium.

After the final witness, God will have 144k, being 12k from each tribe. These #'s are significant, and (IMO) are not literal, but spiritual...and 7 is spiritual perfection...on the good side, a perfect (good) spiritual amount...on the bad side, also the perfect amount(but opposite in spirit).
12 denotes governmental perfection, as with the tribes.

The 12 tribes do not get joined together...Judah and the scattered... until Christ's return. The sealing of the 7000 has to be before these144k, as they are only united upon Christ's return. We are told that the (IMO)7000 are indeed virgins...Mat25, properly awaiting His return before the fact.


Rev 7 is not the tribulation. It clearly shows the sealing before the winds being let loose which I believe would be the beginning of the trib so this actually shows them sealed before the tribulation and that makes sense as God wants to prepare them before the trib begins.

Actually, The winds are the wrath of God. And I agree that they are let loose at the beginning, but they are told to WAIT. The next time the winds are in play is after the 7th trump. This time the symbolism is the angels. God's wrath begins right after Rev14, when the elect are said to be spiritual virgins, and since God's wrath is at the very end of the Trib/cusp of Millennium, we know that these 144k were sealed during the Tribulation.

I hope that wasn't confusing. That is the way I see it.

Naphal
Apr 13th 2007, 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1225726#post1225726)
Ok but how do you go from the historical reference to the OT that Paul makes and there being a group of 7000 special people in the end times? I'll look up the verses you quote and we'll see if any mention 7000.

.....

But nothing here specifies this supposed end times group of 7000. Why do you believe this is done by this 7000 and not the 144k?

There are many reasons why. Paul is teaching that; even though you think that you are alone, God has others ready to Work for Him. Paul teaches about a story of Elijah, and similar circumstances. Those delivered to the Antichrist are obviously elect. You did not dispute that.


Yes sure but why would you think the OT example used by Paul of 7000 would mean another group of 7000 would be used? We are told about a group of 144k that are sealed by God, assumeably to protect them from the mark of the beast and deception, that endure the trib....why isn't Paul speaking about them?




The time frame suggests to me that there has always been a reminent, hence always will be election. There is not going to be any time when there is not those "chosen", hence there must be some "chosen" before the Trib.

God chooses all his elect, does he not? Are you saying this supposed group of 7,000 are "chosen" and are different or better than others of the elect?



There are the sealed (at this point)before the Trib, before Rev7, before the trumps. The point that I am making is that the 7000 witness to the 144k, and the rest of the populous.

I understand but I don't see in scripture yet why you think such a thing. Why isn't it that the 144k witness to the 7000 for example? I don't see any certain number of people mentioned for who is delivered up and witnesses.




The 144k are placed with Christ after these events, and are declaired virgins , at the 7th trump, detailed in Rev14.

Yes that's true, but no group of elect 7000 are mentioned.



Christ teaches in the Gospel accounts of the end days, that 5 of 10 aren't going to be virgins, and wait for His return. Instead they will be with child (spiritually), therefore not staying faithful to the true Messiah.

The words "very elect" are used in Mat24:24.

Not in the way you think they are. That doesn't mean one group more elect than the other. In the Greek the wording for "very elect" means something like "the actual elect". There is no "more elect" group. I know you believe this 7000 to be more elect than the 144k and I know where the teaching came from but my challenge is to prove it with actual scripture. Matt 24:24 does not support that if you check into the greek.




The winds of Rev7 are sent, but don't go to work yet until the sealing is complete.

Almost. They are not sent until after the sealing is complete.




The winds are released as God's wrath after the 7th trump, in chapter15.



Can you document that the winds are God's wrath after the 7th and not something that happens during the tribulation?





Well, we differ on who the 7000 of Rev11 are. Yes I believe them to be the Nephilium. Have you noticed that Satan tries to emulate God? Satan has 7000, and God also has 7000.

7000 what though? If the 700 that die are supposedly bad angels then doesn't that mean the good 7000 has to be angels?

You have been trying to say the good 7000 are human men, elect so why wouldn't Satan's copy of them be 7000 evil humans?

I simply accept what is written. While angels sometimes are called men, usually men are humans and this group of 7000 men die in an earthquake and angels cannot die in this manner so they have to be human.






And these Chapter 11 men(geber) are killed, in the city to which we are told to flee from. It seems logical to me that since they are refered to as Mighty men(might in evil), they are indeed the Nephilium.

You are confusing Nephilim with their children which were called "gibbor" or some spell it "geber". The two are not the same is the point.




The 12 tribes do not get joined together...Judah and the scattered... until Christ's return. The sealing of the 7000 has to be before these144k, as they are only united upon Christ's return. We are told that the (IMO)7000 are indeed virgins...Mat25, properly awaiting His return before the fact.

Pardon? I have not read anything saying any group of 7000 are virgins or that they were also sealed. Please quote verses that say such a thing.

RogerW
Apr 13th 2007, 02:55 PM
Then we'll have to disagree because that's exactly what is going to do harm to the trees and so forth.

The message of the cross doesn't cause hurt to us so I reject that interpretation wholly. It is the winds held back by the angels that will do this damage and it has nothing to do with the cross.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

"wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree"

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees"

"wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree"
"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, til..."

Angels will not directly harm anything. It's the wind that shall.

Actually it's the distinction between those saved after the tribulation and the total saved of all history. There is no reason to think only 144k of Israel only were saved before the cross. The idea is not even considerable IMO.

Naphal,

It appears you are completely convinced that demonic winds are unleashed upon the earth to bring harm. It also appears I cannot convince you otherwise. Surely, since you are completely convinced, you have more then simply your opinion to prove this? Could you please provide Scripture references to prove your opinion? Can you show other passages of Scripture that prove evil winds usher in a period of time known as "the" great tribulation?

RW

Naphal
Apr 13th 2007, 09:46 PM
Naphal,

It appears you are completely convinced that demonic winds are unleashed upon the earth to bring harm. It also appears I cannot convince you otherwise. Surely, since you are completely convinced, you have more then simply your opinion to prove this? Could you please provide Scripture references to prove your opinion? Can you show other passages of Scripture that prove evil winds usher in a period of time known as "the" great tribulation?

RW

Please do the same concerning this being good angels that God sends to harm the seas and trees and earth.

I believe these four angels that hold back this destructive wind to be bad angels. I believe these are the same four:


Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Here instead of using wind to harm the world, the angels go forth to slay men directly.

Ezekiel_37
Apr 14th 2007, 05:01 AM
Naphal

About the "very" elect,

It seems that you have a point. I really never looked up the Greek for "very" (a mistake of mine) and we should all reproof everything.


In truth, I don't use that "very elect" as the basis for my understanding.


What I understand is that there is to be a group of witnesses (elect) who have their moment at the end of the flesh age, right before Christ returns.

The final witness to the world. I have provided the scriptures last post.

(IMO)The 144k go through the trib, and become spiritual virgins at the end, when Christ arrives.

It seems to me that the 144,000 are not fully prepared yet, as we learn in Chapter6-the 5th seal. We see that those wanting to be avenged (the dead in Christ) are told to wait until the rest of their number is complete. The rest of the sealed. This is after the first 4 seals, again (IMO) teaching that the Trib is already upon us at that time.

When the order is given to John not to reveal what the 7 Thunders say, I have an opinion that this is the Gift Of Cloven Tongue of Fire from God (the Holy Spirit speaking through them) given to the elect, for that final witness. Following that thought, the order of events seems to suggest (to me) that the witnesses do their job before the proclamation of the 144k as virgins.

The 7000 men that die in Chapter 11 is another qualifier for the 7000 elect. yin - yang. Both Good and Bad. Yes I did get the words mixed up (I do most of this by memory, and I am human. I erred.) The Strong's suggest that it is "manfaced"-anthropos. Not the normal name for man, men, human.

I contend that they are not flesh men, but the fallen angels (you know my opinion-I am not ashamed of where I get that opinion). The # may not be 7000, but this 7000 in Chapter 11 does draw my attention to Paul's likening in Rom 11.


I am fully able to understand that there may be only 144k.
I can see what you (and the Strong's) are saying about the "very" elect.

I still see a time division. The final witness has to serve a purpose, and my understanding is that the rest of the elect are sealed at that time, by accepting that witness as truth.

Paul definitely tells us that God has reserved for Him election throughout time, right up to the end.(Rom11:4-7) He likens it to the 7000 of 1Kings. He actually says even so at this time (and till the end) there will always be such an election.


Now, I am not stuck on the number 7000 for the election, but it does follow the pattern.

I have to go to bed, but I will say,

There could be only 7000 (literal or symbolic) elect at the time of the final witness. Upon hearing the Truth from them, the rest come out of Babylon, and receive their seal bringing the total # 'up' to 144k.

That is a possibility
Or not!


ps. I do not agree with absolutely everything my Pastor says.

Naphal
Apr 14th 2007, 07:24 AM
Naphal

About the "very" elect,

It seems that you have a point. I really never looked up the Greek for "very" (a mistake of mine) and we should all reproof everything.

It's a common mistake.



It seems to me that the 144,000 are not fully prepared yet, as we learn in Chapter6-the 5th seal. We see that those wanting to be avenged (the dead in Christ) are told to wait until the rest of their number is complete.

Actually they are told to wait until more of the elect are killed like they were, which is to be martyred.


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.




The 7000 men that die in Chapter 11 is another qualifier for the 7000 elect. yin - yang. Both Good and Bad. Yes I did get the words mixed up (I do most of this by memory, and I am human. I erred.) The Strong's suggest that it is "manfaced"-anthropos. Not the normal name for man, men, human.

Lets see:

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

444
444 anthropos {anth'-ro-pos}
from 435 and ops (the countenance, from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a
human being; TDNT - 1:364,59; n m
AV - man 552, not tr 4, misc 3; 559
1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different race or order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led
into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt
and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman



"man-faced, i.e. a human being" sure sounds like humans to me.




I contend that they are not flesh men, but the fallen angels (you know my opinion-I am not ashamed of where I get that opinion).

Ok, but are angelic beings able to be hurt let alone killed by falling rubble? That's generally how people die in earthquakes. I say angels are immune to this being that their bodies are not as fragile as human bodies.





I am fully able to understand that there may be only 144k.
I can see what you (and the Strong's) are saying about the "very" elect.



Fair enough. I am only challenging your beliefs because sometimes it's hard to challenge yourself.




I still see a time division. The final witness has to serve a purpose, and my understanding is that the rest of the elect are sealed at that time, by accepting that witness as truth.

I believe the 144k are sealed prior to the trib and prior to any witnessing.



ps. I do not agree with absolutely everything my Pastor says.

Good. We should always double check what someone teaches and make sure it aligns with scripture.

RogerW
Apr 14th 2007, 10:21 AM
Please do the same concerning this being good angels that God sends to harm the seas and trees and earth.

I believe these four angels that hold back this destructive wind to be bad angels. I believe these are the same four:

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Here instead of using wind to harm the world, the angels go forth to slay men directly.

It is not spirit beings (angels) who bring harm. It is human beings (messengers of the gospel of salvation). The way they bring harm is through the proclamation of the Word of Truth. When we proclaim the Word it is the discerner of the heart. It is as though we have come with a sword, and to some the sword brings life, but to many it brings death.

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Lu 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When we see the word angel in Scripture it can mean either a spirit being, or a human being sent to bring the Word of God. The Greek word translated angel is aggelos and simply means: a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel, messenger. John is instructed to send letters to the angels (messengers) of the seven churches. It would make no sense to think John is writing to angels or spirit beings. It is through human beings, human messengers God has given to bring the message of the cross through the churches, not spirit beings.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The WIND that has been held back is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had not fully come until Pentecost. Prior to Pentecost we see the Holy Spirit abiding "with" the OT elect, but after Pentecost He dwells "within" the elect of God.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ac 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty WIND, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

It is not uncommon that wind symbolizes the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listest, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

RW

Naphal
Apr 14th 2007, 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1227245#post1227245)
Please do the same concerning this being good angels that God sends to harm the seas and trees and earth.

I believe these four angels that hold back this destructive wind to be bad angels. I believe these are the same four:

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Here instead of using wind to harm the world, the angels go forth to slay men directly.

It is not spirit beings (angels) who bring harm. It is human beings (messengers of the gospel of salvation).

While sometimes the word angel refers to a human messenger it is almost always an actual heavenly being and I believe it is in this case.




The way they bring harm is through the proclamation of the Word of Truth.

That may harm the devil but that doesn't harm the seas or trees.



Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

In context this looks to be literal angels performing tasks no human could and there is no hint of any of this being the "Truth".





When we proclaim the Word it is the discerner of the heart. It is as though we have come with a sword, and to some the sword brings life, but to many it brings death.


They were already dead. The Truth brings life.




When we see the word angel in Scripture it can mean either a spirit being, or a human being sent to bring the Word of God.

But in Revelation I think every use of angel is a heavenly being.




John is instructed to send letters to the angels (messengers) of the seven churches. It would make no sense to think John is writing to angels or spirit beings. It is through human beings, human messengers God has given to bring the message of the cross through the churches, not spirit beings.

God uses both and I see no reason why God can't use John as a human messenger to literal angels he had sent forth already.




Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


The use of Stars is used to denote heavenly beings and thus this term is always concerning literal angels not humans.



The WIND that has been held back is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had not fully come until Pentecost. Prior to Pentecost we see the Holy Spirit abiding "with" the OT elect, but after Pentecost He dwells "within" the elect of God.



Doesn't match the description in Rev. It cannot be the "Holy Wind" because the Holy Spirit does not do harm in this manner. The HS is a comforter.


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Ac 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty WIND, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

It is not uncommon that wind symbolizes the Holy Spirit.


No, but not all winds are the Holy Spirit. Satan used wind to kill Jobs family and I will not accept that God permitted Satan to use the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel_37
Apr 15th 2007, 02:40 AM
I said :
It seems to me that the 144,000 are not fully prepared yet, as we learn in Chapter6-the 5th seal. We see that those wanting to be avenged (the dead in Christ) are told to wait until the rest of their number is complete.
You replied-

Actually they are told to wait until more of the elect are killed like they were, which is to be martyred.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The martyred are elect. The dead in Christ, the Saints that return with Him at the 7th trump. Agreed.

6th seal is the 7th trump. Election not complete until then.





Quote:
The 7000 men that die in Chapter 11 is another qualifier for the 7000 elect. yin - yang. Both Good and Bad. Yes I did get the words mixed up (I do most of this by memory, and I am human. I erred.) The Strong's suggest that it is "manfaced"-anthropos. Not the normal name for man, men, human.

Lets see:

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

444
444 anthropos {anth'-ro-pos}
from 435 and ops (the countenance, from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a
human being; TDNT - 1:364,59; n m
AV - man 552, not tr 4, misc 3; 559
1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different race or order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led
into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt
and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman

"man-faced, i.e. a human being" sure sounds like humans to me.

Look like humans, as all angels do. Still, the word is not the norm for man.
What happens (IMO) is the 7th trump....earthquake.....destruction of the fallen angels power and the religious beasts power. Rev11:12, the Two Witnesses ascend, the same hour, the earthquake....THE earthquake.

If it were men, there would be an explanation of who and why(IMO). Angels eat food, walk and talk and are sexually accosted. They look like men, and even Satan is called a man from time to time. The only reference that we have to 7000 is the example I gave earlier of the elect and this one. Since the election are not going to be destroyed, and the fallen angels are, I assume that this is who is being referenced. See Rev19:18-21. The counterfeit to God's election.





Quote:
I contend that they are not flesh men, but the fallen angels (you know my opinion-I am not ashamed of where I get that opinion).


Ok, but are angelic beings able to be hurt let alone killed by falling rubble? That's generally how people die in earthquakes. I say angels are immune to this being that their bodies are not as fragile as human bodies.

At the end of the age, when Christ returns at the 7th trump, all flesh is destroyed, by hail and brimstone....and the fallen angels who are with Satan, get put in the pit, awaiting the Judgement....along with Satan and his system. Satan will be released, as you know, but his system and angels will not be. They are not to have any say in the matter.

All men will be able to look upon Satan and say.....is this the one? Satan is called a man many times in Prophecy.




Quote:
I am fully able to understand that there may be only 144k.
I can see what you (and the Strong's) are saying about the "very" elect.


Fair enough. I am only challenging your beliefs because sometimes it's hard to challenge yourself.

And I truly appreciate it, honestly. Thank-you. As long as we are cordial, there is no problem debating doctrine. Healthy debate.





Quote:
I still see a time division. The final witness has to serve a purpose, and my understanding is that the rest of the elect are sealed at that time, by accepting that witness as truth.


I believe the 144k are sealed prior to the trib and prior to any witnessing.

OK




Quote:
ps. I do not agree with absolutely everything my Pastor says.


Good. We should always double check what someone teaches and make sure it aligns with scripture.

Agreed


Peace in Christ to You

Naphal
Apr 15th 2007, 02:53 AM
I said (in the blue box's)
It seems to me that the 144,000 are not fully prepared yet, as we learn in Chapter6-the 5th seal. We see that those wanting to be avenged (the dead in Christ) are told to wait until the rest of their number is complete.

You replied-

Actually they are told to wait until more of the elect are killed like they were, which is to be martyred.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The martyred are elect. The dead in Christ, the Saints that return with Him at the 7th trump. Agreed.


My point is that the verse is speaking about some of the elect that shall be killed during the tribulation. Your Pastor teaches that none of the elect will die ion the tribulation so I wanted to know where you stand on that.






6th seal is the 7th trump. Election not complete until then.

Why would election (choosing certain people for certain tasks) not be completed until the end? Are you sure that the election haven't been already chosen?





Quote:
The 7000 men that die in Chapter 11 is another qualifier for the 7000 elect. yin - yang. Both Good and Bad. Yes I did get the words mixed up (I do most of this by memory, and I am human. I erred.) The Strong's suggest that it is "manfaced"-anthropos. Not the normal name for man, men, human.
Lets see:

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

444
444 anthropos {anth'-ro-pos}
from 435 and ops (the countenance, from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a
human being; TDNT - 1:364,59; n m
AV - man 552, not tr 4, misc 3; 559
1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different race or order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led
into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt
and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman

"man-faced, i.e. a human being" sure sounds like humans to me.


Look like humans, as all angels do. Still, the word is not the norm for man.



I already said that angels are called men but that most of the time "man" or "men" means human.




What happens (IMO) is the 7th trump....earthquake.....destruction of the fallen angels power and the religious beasts power. Rev11:12, the Two Witnesses ascend, the same hour, the earthquake....THE earthquake.

Are you aware that there are two earthquakes? One is in the 6th trump and is a relatively small one that kills 7000 men and then after the 7th sounds there is an earthquake so massive that it's greater than any other earthquake in the history of mankind.






Quote:
I contend that they are not flesh men, but the fallen angels (you know my opinion-I am not ashamed of where I get that opinion).
Ok, but are angelic beings able to be hurt let alone killed by falling rubble? That's generally how people die in earthquakes. I say angels are immune to this being that their bodies are not as fragile as human bodies.


At the end of the age, when Christ returns at the 7th trump, all flesh is destroyed, by hail and brimstone....and the fallen angels who are with Satan, get put in the pit, awaiting the Judgement....along with Satan and his system.


Yeah but you are teaching that 7000 evil angels are killed in an earthquake. You didn't answer whether angels actually can be killed in that way nor have you addressed the contradiction of angels dying in an earthquake but also being alive and put in the pit with Satan. Many things are not adding up with this belief which is why I am trying to get you to take a second look at whether the teaching of this Pastor about the 7000 men dying in an earthquake are angels or not.




Fair enough. I am only challenging your beliefs because sometimes it's hard to challenge yourself.


And I truly appreciate it, honestly. Thank-you. As long as we are cordial, there is no problem debating doctrine. Healthy debate.


I always treat someone in the way they treat me :)

Ezekiel_37
Apr 15th 2007, 03:46 AM
My point is that the verse is speaking about some of the elect that shall be killed during the tribulation. Your Pastor teaches that none of the elect will die ion the tribulation so I wanted to know where you stand on that.

I believe that those who will witness this final truth in front of Satan, will be protected 100% and not die in the flesh. Protection is promised. Those martyred and to be martyred have been since Christ's crucifixion...up until the Trib. During the Trib., my opinion is that they will be safe and sound, alive to do that final witness.



Why would election (choosing certain people for certain tasks) not be completed until the end? Are you sure that the election haven't been already chosen?


Actually, the election were chosen before they were ever flesh. Jerimiah, Jacob and Esau....God knew them all before they were even born. Bad or Good. They have already been accepted by God, and will not share in the second death, but I still believe that many of them will realize this at the witness, and come out of Babylon.




I already said that angels are called men but that most of the time "man" or "men" means human.

Agreed, but not always. man of Lawlessness. son of Perdition, and all angels that walked the earth were perceived by MOST as being men.



Are you aware that there are two earthquakes? One is in the 6th trump and is a relatively small one that kills 7000 men and then after the 7th sounds there is an earthquake so massive that it's greater than any other earthquake in the history of mankind.

No, I am not aware that there are two earthquakes. I believe them to be the same earthquake. THE earthquake.





Yeah but you are teaching that 7000 evil angels are killed in an earthquake. You didn't answer whether angels actually can be killed in that way nor have you addressed the contradiction of angels dying in an earthquake but also being alive and put in the pit with Satan. Many things are not adding up with this belief which is why I am trying to get you to take a second look at whether the teaching of this Pastor about the 7000 men dying in an earthquake are angels or not.

Angels cannot be killed in the flesh, as you and I can be today. But, as all flesh is destroyed at the 7th trump, the Millennium starts, and those evil angels are cast aside. They are reserved for soul death. They will be as good as dead and have NO influence on the events at the end of the Millennium.


I always treat someone in the way they treat me :)

As do I.;)

Naphal
Apr 15th 2007, 04:06 AM
I believe that those who will witness this final truth in front of Satan, will be protected 100% and not die in the flesh. Protection is promised. Those martyred and to be martyred have been since Christ's crucifixion...up until the Trib. During the Trib., my opinion is that they will be safe and sound, alive to do that final witness.[/COLOR]

Naturally God will protect those that he has decided shall complete a certain task but after such a task is completed the persons can be killed.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1228688#post1228688)
Why would election (choosing certain people for certain tasks) not be completed until the end? Are you sure that the election haven't been already chosen?




Actually, the election were chosen before they were ever flesh. Jerimiah, Jacob and Esau....God knew them all before they were even born. Bad or Good. They have already been accepted by God, and will not share in the second death, but I still believe that many of them will realize this at the witness, and come out of Babylon.

And that was my point. Why did you say the election is not finished until the 7th trump?








No, I am not aware that there are two earthquakes. I believe them to be the same earthquake. THE earthquake.


Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

One is in the 6th trump and a 10th of the city falls and 7000 men die.


Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

And another is in the 7th trump and is the greatest earthquake in all of human history. How is it you believe these two to be the same?








Angels cannot be killed in the flesh, as you and I can be today. But, as all flesh is destroyed at the 7th trump, the Millennium starts, and those evil angels are cast aside.

Ok, but angels are not flesh as we are flesh. The 7000 men die in an earthquake in the 6th trump so this means that it's not God's wrath which occurs in the 7th trump and it also means these men aren't angels. So, since you believe a group of 7000 human election men will be testifying before Satan and before the world doesn't it make sense that these 7000 men are the elect that have testified and then are killed by Satan because of what they said?

Ezekiel_37
Apr 15th 2007, 08:41 AM
Naturally God will protect those that he has decided shall complete a certain task but after such a task is completed the persons can be killed.

The protection of the elect that will witness is 100% guaranteed in the Gospels. There are multiple scriptures. Paul teaches also that "We shall not all die" and I assume that he is referring to the faithful.



Why did you say the election is not finished until the 7th trump?

I probably worded that statement wrong. I meant to convey that the "other" election shall come out of their deception at the 7000's witness. Then they too will realize that they are election.




Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

One is in the 6th trump and a 10th of the city falls and 7000 men die.


Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

And another is in the 7th trump and is the greatest earthquake in all of human history. How is it you believe these two to be the same?


I believe them to be the same. I do not think that there is any time between the 6th and 7th trump. Woe 1-5th trump-Satan cast to earth.(5 months-total time until Christ's return) Woe 2-6th trump-Satan's army gone wild and Armageddon. At the end of the 6th trump, the great earthquake, marking the 7th trump which is God's wrath. Woe 3-the wrath of God described in His Vials as Christ hits the earth. Maybe 5 minute wrath. Maybe less. Maybe 1 second.(a short time IMO).

When the 6th trump ends and the 7th trump begins (IMO) are to be the heavenly signs that usher in the Millennium(6th seal). This includes the Great earthquake. Rev 10-the witness, Rev 11, 12 and 13 are parenthetical chapters. I do not see three earthquakes. I think that God is teaching the same one. The only one that He has to teach. It is the one that matters. In Rev14, He is here.

I think that the Two witnesses rise to meet the multitude and Christ, and then the earthquake. Rev11:12, and the earthquake in the next verse.

The other mentions of earthquake are the same. There is no need for an earthquake after Christ is here. There is no flesh. Blood flowing up to a horses bridal(the height of a man).

(7000 that die in Rev11, I contend are angels.)



Ok, but angels are not flesh as we are flesh. The 7000 men die in an earthquake in the 6th trump so this means that it's not God's wrath which occurs in the 7th trump and it also means these men aren't angels. So, since you believe a group of 7000 human election men will be testifying before Satan and before the world doesn't it make sense that these 7000 men are the elect that have testified and then are killed by Satan because of what they said?



I contend that the 7000 are figuratively dead at the 7th trump, which is when Christ's feet touch the ground. You contend that it is during the 6th trump, but I say it's right at the moment that His feet hit earth. They are Dead spiritually. They will not have a chance at salvation. They lost, along with Satan. They are not released at the end of the Millennium. They are done. As above, Rev 11:12 happens first, and then Rev11:13. The two witnesses rise to meet Christ, and then the earthquake. Do you agree?

If it truly is the end of the flesh (as I see it) and the 'witness' (the great commission) is at the end of this time, after the 2 witnesses are killed, then those witnessing election wouldn't need to be killed. God promises protection and Paul teaches that we shall not all die. Rev2 and 3 involve all of time since Christ's Crucifixion. Those who were martyred are mentioned in the 5th seal, but IMO there are no martyred (save the 2 witnesses) during the Trib.

God needs these people to witness. They need to be completely safe for this, and completely trust God. I believe that Elijah and Enoch are examples of this protection....God taking them physically without death

Peace in Christ

Naphal
Apr 15th 2007, 08:57 AM
Naturally God will protect those that he has decided shall complete a certain task but after such a task is completed the persons can be killed.

The protection of the elect that will witness is 100% guaranteed in the Gospels. There are multiple scriptures. Paul teaches also that "We shall not all die" and I assume that he is referring to the faithful.

All but those God states shall die:


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are also the faithful but they have to die before God's wrath comes. Some say it's only the two prophets but I don't believe the language used supports the idea of only two people dying in the tribulation.



[quote=Naphal;1228776]Why did you say the election is not finished until the 7th trump?

I probably worded that statement wrong. I meant to convey that the "other" election shall come out of their deception at the 7000's witness. Then they too will realize that they are election.

Perhaps.






I believe them to be the same. I do not think that there is any time between the 6th and 7th trump.

Doesn't have to be. One quake starts and finishes before the 6th ends and the other doesn't begin until sometime within the 7th trump so how long of time there is between the 6th and 7th is really not relevant. You have to admit that the two sound nothing alike...right?




Woe 1-5th trump-Satan cast to earth.(5 months-total time until Christ's return) Woe 2-6th trump-Armageddon.

Satan is cast to earth in the 3rd trump, not the 5th.


Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.


Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.






At the end of the 6th trump, the great earthquake, marking the 7th trump which is God's wrath.

Yet the "great" earthquake does not take place at the end of the 6th. We have to rightly divide events and times or things will get confused together.




(7000 that die in Rev11, I contend are angels.)

You still haven't explained how it is possible for angelic beings to be hurt let alone die in an earthquake. Angels are in spiritual bodies and physical things such as earthquakes cannot affect them. So, do you base your belief on scripture or on what you have been taught? I mean that in a friendly way as I just want you to look at it from a different viewpoint. Pretend you are soemone else and try to prove scripturally that these men are angels and that they can die ion an earthquake.







I contend that the 7000 are figuratively dead at the 7th trump, which is when Christ's feet touch the ground. You contend that it is during the 6th trump, but I say it's right at the moment that His feet hit earth.

It's definitely before he returns because he doesn't take a step upon the earth or even lave heaven until the 7th sounds and the quake is over before the 7th sounds.




They are Dead spiritually. They will not have a chance at salvation.

Any fallen angels are already figuratively dead and certainly an earthquake doesn't make them figuratively dead or more figuratively dead than they were.



I believe that Elijah and Enoch are examples of this protection....God taking them physically without death

And yet don't you believe that they return as the two prophets and are killed?

RogerW
Apr 16th 2007, 06:14 PM
Naphal,

<<<“While sometimes the word angel refers to a human messenger it is almost always an actual heavenly being and I believe it is in this case.”>>>

Where do you find this truth in Scripture?

<<<“But in Revelation I think every use of angel is a heavenly being.”>>>

<<<“God uses both and I see no reason why God can't use John as a human messenger to literal angels he had sent forth already.”>>>

<<<“The use of Stars is used to denote heavenly beings and thus this term is always concerning literal angels not humans.”>>>

Not always. Consider Jude, speaking of reprobate among the elect body of Christ. These referred to as wandering stars are certainly not spirit beings, they are human beings.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Christ cannot be any more clear here in Rev where He tells John to send letters to the seven churches, and then Christ tells us the seven churches are symbolized as seven stars. John is being instructed to write to human beings, or human messengers because it is human messengers who are given the commission to go unto all the world and proclaim the gospel, it is therefore human messengers that Christ is writing to.

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

<<<“Doesn't match the description in Rev. It cannot be the "Holy Wind" because the Holy Spirit does not do harm in this manner. The HS is a comforter.”>>>

You’re making my point for me. It is not the Holy Spirit or demonic spirit beings who are permitted to bring harm, it is the angels (the four messengers). The outpouring universally of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost coincides with the messengers bringing harm through the SWORD of truth, or the Word of God. I’ve already shown how it cuts asunder, and Christ Himself says He came not to bring peace but a Sword.


<<<“No, but not all winds are the Holy Spirit. Satan used wind to kill Jobs family and I will not accept that God permitted Satan to use the Holy Spirit.”>>>
<<<“I believe these four angels that hold back this destructive wind to be bad angels. I believe these are the same four:”>>>

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

<<<“Here instead of using wind to harm the world, the angels go forth to slay men directly.”>>>

It is true not all wind(s) are the Holy Spirit. This passage does not say winds it says wind. "That the WIND not blow." Again you are making my point for me. It is NOT destructive spirit winds, nor is it the Holy Spirit permitted to hurt, it is the messengers, just like you understand from Rev 9. Have you ever compared these four angels of Rev 9 to the two witnesses of Rev 11?

RW

Naphal
Apr 16th 2007, 09:02 PM
Naphal,

<<<“While sometimes the word angel refers to a human messenger it is almost always an actual heavenly being and I believe it is in this case.”>>>

Where do you find this truth in Scripture?

In scripture. I take it you have never done an exhaustive study on angels in scripture.





<<<“But in Revelation I think every use of angel is a heavenly being.”>>>

<<<“God uses both and I see no reason why God can't use John as a human messenger to literal angels he had sent forth already.”>>>

<<<“The use of Stars is used to denote heavenly beings and thus this term is always concerning literal angels not humans.”>>>

Not always. Consider Jude, speaking of reprobate among the elect body of Christ. These referred to as wandering stars are certainly not spirit beings, they are human beings.


They are being compared to others that have been very sinful including "the angels that sinned" that are "wandering stars". I don't believe the reference to stars are human being in this case.



Christ cannot be any more clear here in Rev where He tells John to send letters to the seven churches, and then Christ tells us the seven churches are symbolized as seven stars.

The seven churches are not 7 stars but seven candlesticks. I think the clarity of John you mention is that.


Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

You: seven churches = seven stars
John: seven churches = seven candlesticks




John is being instructed to write to human beings, or human messengers because it is human messengers who are given the commission to go unto all the world and proclaim the gospel, it is therefore human messengers that Christ is writing to.



Since heavenly beings are called angels and angels are messengers then anyone can be written to and be messengers of the gospel.




You’re making my point for me. It is not the Holy Spirit or demonic spirit beings who are permitted to bring harm, it is the angels (the four messengers).

But they do not do it directly. The hold back this "wind" that is what shall do all the damage.





The outpouring universally of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost coincides with the messengers bringing harm through the SWORD of truth, or the Word of God.

The trees and such weren't harmed at all.



<<<“Here instead of using wind to harm the world, the angels go forth to slay men directly.”>>>

It is true not all wind(s) are the Holy Spirit. This passage does not say winds it says wind.


No need to nitpick. It's the same difference. "The winds blew" and "the wind blew" is the same.


Have you ever compared these four angels of Rev 9 to the two witnesses of Rev 11?

I just did! One is four and one is two. :)

RogerW
Apr 17th 2007, 12:58 AM
In scripture. I take it you have never done an exhaustive study on angels in scripture.

They are being compared to others that have been very sinful including "the angels that sinned" that are "wandering stars". I don't believe the reference to stars are human being in this case.

The seven churches are not 7 stars but seven candlesticks. I think the clarity of John you mention is that.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

You: seven churches = seven stars
John: seven churches = seven candlesticks

Since heavenly beings are called angels and angels are messengers then anyone can be written to and be messengers of the gospel.

But they do not do it directly. The hold back this "wind" that is what shall do all the damage.

The trees and such weren't harmed at all.

No need to nitpick. It's the same difference. "The winds blew" and "the wind blew" is the same.

I just did! One is four and one is two. :)

I don't mean to be overly critical, but the way you understand "stars" is NOT biblical. You offer opinions, but little Scripture to prove your opinions. And the verses you do offer prove something quite different then your opinions. It is because I have studied angels in Scipture that I know that most of the time when this word is used in the NT it refers not to angelic, or spirit messengers, but human messengers. This includes the usage in Jude 1:13. Where do you find angels as spirit beings called:

Jude 1:16 These are murmurmers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Yes the churches are symbolized as seven candlesticks, now please tell me who makes up the church? Is it spirit beings, or human beings? It is NOT angels i.e. spirit beings! Where in Scripture can you show that angels (spirit beings) are commissioned to bring the gospel? Do you view the trees as literal?

You better look a little more closely at Rev 11. Are you sure the two witnesses do not consist of four? Christ tells us His two witnesses are made up of two olive trees, and two candlesticks. (2+2=4)

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

And what are these witnesses doing?

Re 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Compare the work of the witnesses to that of the four angels loosed from the Euphrates.

Re 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Re 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Re 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Re 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Please prove your opinions with supporting Scripture. Otherwise it is simply your opinion.

RW

Ezekiel_37
Apr 17th 2007, 02:31 AM
Quote:
Naphal said-
Naturally God will protect those that he has decided shall complete a certain task but after such a task is completed the persons can be killed.


Ezekiel_37-The protection of the elect that will witness is 100% guaranteed in the Gospels. There are multiple scriptures. Paul teaches also that "We shall not all die" and I assume that he is referring to the faithful.



Naphal-
All but those God states shall die:

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are also the faithful but they have to die before God's wrath comes. Some say it's only the two prophets but I don't believe the language used supports the idea of only two people dying in the tribulation.

*Agreed. I am saying that God states that those who will witness will be protected through that Tribulation time. At the end of the age, they shall be changed into spiritual beings, with Immortality, while the rest of humanity (save the 144k) will also be transformed, but will still be liable to die the second death, the death of the soul at Judgement.


Quote: Ezekiel_37....on the Great earthquake, or multiple earthquakes

I believe them to be the same. I do not think that there is any time between the 6th and 7th trump.


Naphal-Doesn't have to be. One quake starts and finishes before the 6th ends and the other doesn't begin until sometime within the 7th trump so how long of time there is between the 6th and 7th is really not relevant. You have to admit that the two sound nothing alike...right?


*No, I do not admit that. The 6th seal states the heavenly signs, representing Christ's return. There is an earthquake.
The 6th trump ends, the Two witnesses are spoken of, the hidden Word spoken by God's thrown to John, and then ... the Great earthquake, the same as that which happens when Christ's feet touch the ground. This is that earthquake.

Quote:ezekiel_37

Woe 1-5th trump-Satan cast to earth.(5 months-total time until Christ's return) Woe 2-6th trump-Armageddon.


Naphal-Satan is cast to earth in the 3rd trump, not the 5th.


Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.


Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

*Yes, I have studied wormwood, and if we read the 5th trump, we see who is cast from heaven and where he is going. He has the keys to the abyss, the pit where the beast is. 1/3 marks this as the same time as the parenthetical chapter-Rev 12's 1/3 of the stars, which he caused to be cast to earth. This is the reason for this flesh age. We are in the 5th trump now, awaiting the casting out of heaven of Satan. Sometime within this trump, Satan shall be on earth.

Quote:Ezekiel_37
At the end of the 6th trump, the great earthquake, marking the 7th trump which is God's wrath.

Naphal-Yet the "great" earthquake does not take place at the end of the 6th. We have to rightly divide events and times or things will get confused together.


*I think that I explained how I see this above. The earthquake is the Mark of Christ's return. It is after the 6th trump, after the Two witnesses and after the secret message given to John. There is no basis for more than one earthquake. The only earthquake we are told to watch for is this one, Christ's return. It is the same earthquake.

Quote: Ezekiel_37

(7000 that die in Rev11, I contend are angels.)


Naphal-You still haven't explained how it is possible for angelic beings to be hurt let alone die in an earthquake. Angels are in spiritual bodies and physical things such as earthquakes cannot affect them. So, do you base your belief on scripture or on what you have been taught? I mean that in a friendly way as I just want you to look at it from a different viewpoint. Pretend you are soemone else and try to prove scripturally that these men are angels and that they can die ion an earthquake.

*OK, This death of the 7000 is figurative. The fallen angels are to be taken out at the 7th trump, and put away until judgement. It is figurative. They have the same fate as men. There is no flesh death at that 7th trump time anyway. All are changed to spirit, and we shall all be like those angels. That is why they are likened to men. They will be as good as dead, because they have no further role in the affairs of the world. When Satan is released after the Millennium, they are not with him. They are gonners.

Quote:Ezekiel_37


I contend that the 7000 are figuratively dead at the 7th trump, which is when Christ's feet touch the ground. You contend that it is during the 6th trump, but I say it's right at the moment that His feet hit earth.

Naphal-It's definitely before he returns because he doesn't take a step upon the earth or even lave heaven until the 7th sounds and the quake is over before the 7th sounds.


*Same earthquake. I have explained above.


Quote: Ezekiel_37

They are Dead spiritually. They will not have a chance at salvation.


Naphal-Any fallen angels are already figuratively dead and certainly an earthquake doesn't make them figuratively dead or more figuratively dead than they were.


*Now all mankind will see them and regard them in the pit. They shall be like the rest of us, and will be not allowed any life here on earth. They are indeed figuratively dead. The death is to show humanity that they are not of God, but of Satan.

Quote: Ezekiel_37

I believe that Elijah and Enoch are examples of this protection....God taking them physically without death


Naphal-And yet don't you believe that they return as the two prophets and are killed?


*I never said that. I didn't imply it either. I do believe that the two witnesses are killed. I see them dying 3 days before the 7th trump, and rising to meet the Saints and Christ, as that earthquake hits.

They shall indeed die.


ps. I am not convinced that it is to be them, as Moses is also a consideration, as is the 2 favorable church systems that Christ speaks of in His letter's to the churches in Rev2 and 3. Philadelphia and Smyrna.

I wish you well.
Peace in Christ

Naphal
Apr 18th 2007, 01:05 AM
I don't mean to be overly critical, but the way you understand "stars" is NOT biblical.

That is your opinion but I disagree with you.


It is because I have studied angels in Scipture that I know that most of the time when this word is used in the NT it refers not to angelic, or spirit messengers, but human messengers.

I have also studied this topic and most of the time when an angel is mentioned it is a heavenly being not a human messenger.




This includes the usage in Jude 1:13. Where do you find angels as spirit beings called:

Jude 1:16 These are murmurmers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.



This can apply to angels as well as humans. Angels have sinned and have gone after their own lusts.



Where in Scripture can you show that angels (spirit beings) are commissioned to bring the gospel?


Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If a false gospel can be preached by an angel then surely true gospel can be.


Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,


I suppose you forgot about this verse as well. There are more examples but this is enough to prove the fact.




You better look a little more closely at Rev 11. Are you sure the two witnesses do not consist of four? Christ tells us His two witnesses are made up of two olive trees, and two candlesticks. (2+2=4)

Two candlesticks are one witness and two prophets are the other witness. That's two witnesses. Those two witnesses are composed of a large number of individuals.




And what are these witnesses doing?

Re 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Compare the work of the witnesses to that of the four angels loosed from the Euphrates.

Re 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Re 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Re 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Re 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Please prove your opinions with supporting Scripture. Otherwise it is simply your opinion.



All well and good when the scriptures are properly understood. You are incorrect to say the two witnesses which you believe adds to four are the four angels that hold back the winds. What and who the two witnesses are is clearly explained in scripture as two male prophets and two churches so that means that the four angels mentioned elsewhere are not the two witnesses (or four witnesses).

Naphal
Apr 18th 2007, 01:17 AM
*No, I do not admit that. The 6th seal states the heavenly signs, representing Christ's return. There is an earthquake.
The 6th trump ends, the Two witnesses are spoken of, the hidden Word spoken by God's thrown to John, and then ... the Great earthquake, the same as that which happens when Christ's feet touch the ground. This is that earthquake.

I'm afraid not. The earthquake at the 7th trump happens after the 7th trump has sounded but the quake that kills the 7000 men starts and finishes in the 6th trump before the 7th sounds. You are taking two different quakes and trying to make them the same one at the same time but they happen at two different times. One is smaller and local and kills 7000 while the other is more global and affects so much more.




*Yes, I have studied wormwood, and if we read the 5th trump, we see who is cast from heaven and where he is going. He has the keys to the abyss, the pit where the beast is.


The angel with the keys is not Satan. Satan never has the keys to his own prison. The angel that has the keys in the 5th trump is the same angel that has the keys in Rev 20 when he locks satan in that pit. At no time does Satan have those keys.


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,




1/3 marks this as the same time as the parenthetical chapter-Rev 12's 1/3 of the stars, which he caused to be cast to earth. This is the reason for this flesh age. We are in the 5th trump now, awaiting the casting out of heaven of Satan.

If we are in the 5th trump then Satan was cast out of heaven two trumps ago. And, I believe that is the case. Rev 12 shows that Satan is cast out of heaven long before the tribulation begins.




*OK, This death of the 7000 is figurative. The fallen angels are to be taken out at the 7th trump, and put away until judgement. It is figurative.

That doesn't sound like a figurative death. That's imprisonment of the living. How exactly do they "die" figuratively in an earthquake?




They have the same fate as men. There is no flesh death at that 7th trump time anyway. All are changed to spirit, and we shall all be like those angels.

Pardon? No flesh death? Not for the elect but for the wicked there is a literal bloodbath of death:


Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

When Paul speaks of the change of bodies without death he is only speaking of those who are "gathered together" at the 7th trump, not the rest of the world. If you study the subject and object of the verses you will find that Paul addresses the elect only, not everyone.








Naphal-And yet don't you believe that they return as the two prophets and are killed?


*I never said that. I didn't imply it either. I do believe that the two witnesses are killed. I see them dying 3 days before the 7th trump, and rising to meet the Saints and Christ, as that earthquake hits.


They rise up to heaven before the 6th trump quake not as it occurs.


Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.





ps. I am not convinced that it is to be them, as Moses is also a consideration, as is the 2 favorable church systems that Christ speaks of in His letter's to the churches in Rev2 and 3. Philadelphia and Smyrna.



So you think God will make Moses die twice?

possumliving
Apr 18th 2007, 05:19 AM
The 144,000 are just as the book of Revelation states...they are Jews.

The reason Christians aren't mentioned having to be sealed is because we are sealed already.

2 Cor 1:22 [He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by] putting His seal upon us and giving us His [Holy] Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit {and} guarantee [of the fulfillment of His promise].


Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).

Naphal
Apr 18th 2007, 05:22 AM
The 144,000 are just as the book of Revelation states...they are Jews.

Yes they are Jews but their religion is Christianity because it states they follow the Lamb. Religious Jews do not follow the lamb.



The reason Christians aren't mentioned having to be sealed is because we are sealed already.

2 Cor 1:22 [He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by] putting His seal upon us and giving us His [Holy] Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit {and} guarantee [of the fulfillment of His promise].

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).


This is a different seal. Only the 144k will be sealed with that certain seal.

Ezekiel_37
Apr 18th 2007, 06:19 AM
The earthquake happens AS the 7th trump sounds, just AS the 6th trump ends. No time in between. The 11 chapter of Revelation deals with the entire Tribulation. From beginning to end.

The 6 seals are given, (info) and the Devil is cast.

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.




This silence is when Satan is cast out from heaven. The Accuser is then, not going to be making trouble there(heaven). He will be making his appearance as AntiChrist here.

He has never been silent, and during the 1st half of the trib, he Accuses the election before the thrown of God. This silence means that he is no longer in front of God's thrown accusing the election. This marks the 1/2 way point of the Trib (middle of the week). Revelation doesn't always go in direct order. We are given introversion, we are given the events in different ways, not all linear from Chapter 1 to 22. That is what a parenthetical chapter is.


The angel with the keys is not Satan. Satan never has the keys to his own prison. The angel that has the keys in the 5th trump is the same angel that has the keys in Rev 20 when he locks satan in that pit. At no time does Satan have those keys.

The same angel that holds him, will release him. This MUST be Michael. (Rev9, Rev12, Rev20) Satan is released to the earth sometime in this 5th trump.

If we are in the 5th trump then Satan was cast out of heaven two trumps ago. And, I believe that is the case. Rev 12 shows that Satan is cast out of heaven long before the tribulation begins.

Not quite. We are awaiting his arrival, and we (the world) shall all know it, because they (the world) think that it is Christ coming on His White Horse, but as the 1st seal states, he is the fake.-Toxon-a cheap imitation. But he comes in looking like Christ, on the wings of peace, riding a white horse. Wormwood is a different age. 1/3 is your reference. Compare with Rev12, another parenthetical chapter covering the age before the flesh and this age. We are still awaiting Satan's casting out in this age. Satan comes here in the midst of the week, hence the middle of the tribulation.

I would ask you where Satan is now if you believe him to be cast out in the 3rd trump? Did the world see it? Satan is only on earth for the last 1/2 of the Tribulation. His angels are cast before him, marking the Trib.


7000 men(angels) who die in the quake Rev11;

That doesn't sound like a figurative death. That's imprisonment of the living. How exactly do they "die" figuratively in an earthquake?

They are likened to men, but are not men. It is figurative. Satan himself is called a man many times, but we know he is not a man but a fallen angel. They are not to have any interaction with mankind or heaven anymore. They are figuratively dead at this point. They look like men, as all angels do, and during the tribulation sit as kings of the NWO-political Babylon. The world surely believes them to be men. The world doesn't see IT coming at all...save the elect. All men will be able to see them held until judgement, and look apon them. Their pit is a place from which their is no escape. From the pit, they get destroyed at Judgement.

About -we shall not all die! Those of us alive upon His return shall be changed.

Pardon? No flesh death? Not for the elect but for the wicked there is a literal bloodbath of death:

At the 7th trump, the flesh ceases to exist, and those on earth at that time will not go to heaven, but rather will be here for the Tribulation. At that time, death is defeated. All flesh men will loose their flesh bodies, and get turned to spirit. If you be one of God's election this transformation won't hurt a bit, but....who's to say about those who are not the election. The height of a horse's bridal is about man hight. Imagine a world of non functioning flesh bodies lying around the planet, but all of the souls are transformed to spirit. Good, bad, and indifferent. That is what the Millennium is for...to save as many of them as possible.



When Paul speaks of the change of bodies without death he is only speaking of those who are "gathered together" at the 7th trump, not the rest of the world. If you study the subject and object of the verses you will find that Paul addresses the elect only, not everyone.

That is impossible, for as 1Cor15 teaches, we must be like Him. He is changing everything, so He can dwell here. He is coming here, so, all must be changed.

So, are you saying that these others, besides the elect are still in physical flesh bodies for the 1000 years? I do not agree if that is what you are saying.


2 witnesses-

They rise up to heaven before the 6th trump quake not as it occurs.


Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The same hour means the same time. Just moments. Long enough for the worls to see them as Christ decends to touch the ground, and all are changed to spirit, including the 2 witnesses. That's why they rise. All the World will witness this as we are told that all will see Christ arrive.

About the possible two witnesses identity.
So you think God will make Moses die twice?

I realize that the scriptures say Moses died. It also says that NO MAN knows where he is buried. I find it fascinating that our Father would have Elijah and MOSES (not Enoch) transfigured on the mount of Transfiguration to minister to Christ before His crucifiction. This is where the possibility of Moses being one of the 2 witnesses plays in. Maybe he didn't actually die in the flesh but was taken by God. (figures of speech-dead to the world). Maybe he did die. Either way, God could have resurrected him as he did with Lazarus. There were a few people that must have died twice, right?


Order of events, as I understand them. Total time...5 months.
5th-6th-7th trumps.

5th...
-Satan and his angels are released from prison.
-Two Witnesses arrive.
-Satan stays in heaven and accuses the election, night and day until the 1/2 way point.
-The Fallen angels leave heaven right away and set up political Babylon-the first beast.
-That first beast almost takes over the world, but receives a deadly wound. Probably by the allies! Maybe by the witnesses.
-Satan leaves heaven in the middle of the week (trib) and comes to earth.
-Satan play acts Christ, comes in on a white horse, fools the world by bringing peace as the fighting nations of the world believe him to be Messiah come to save them/rapture them/lead them.
-Satan fools the Christians and others. Peace, peace, peace.
-Satan saves the nearly fallen NWO and turns it from political Babylon to religious Babylon, all worshiping him as God.
-One world currency, one world religion-mark of the beast.


6th...
-Satan himself is the Abomination of Desolation.
-Satan gathers the armies of the world at Armageddon.
-The two Witnesses are eventually killed.
-The election give their testimony, the final portion of the Great Commission (while we are in the flesh). At the most 10 days before the 7th trump.



7th...Millennium begins-The 7th trump sounds, the two witnesses meet Christ in His multitude (cloud) of returning Saints upon His touchdown...(first fruits) as all souls including the faithful election, leave their flesh bodies permanently and become spirit (air).
Christ's feet touch the earth, causing the Great earthquake which destroys a 10th part of the city.
-The fallen angels who did rule the earth under Satan, are now figuratively killed, (as all men will be) and put in the pit. It is not the earthquake parsay that kills them, but Christ's arrival. The earthquake is a happenstance.
-A path is made to the city (by said earthquake), hence that part of the city is destroyed.


I would think that God's wrath won't last but a few seconds ...minutes.
Short period of time.

1000 years to teach / judge those who did not overcome.

I was going to get into further detail, but it is 2:20am here, and I gotta sleep.

Hey, I hope we are going to continue these chats.
I would like to hear the order of events as you understand them, including the 3rd trump and where Satan is now!

Peace in Christ

Naphal
Apr 18th 2007, 06:59 AM
The earthquake happens AS the 7th trump sounds, just AS the 6th trump ends. No time in between.


I understand that but the verses do not reflect this. The 6th trump quake happens entirely within the 6th trump before the 7th ever sounds.




The 11 chapter of Revelation deals with the entire Tribulation. From beginning to end.

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The 6 seals are given, (info) and the Devil is cast.


I know you believe the half an hour silence is when Satan is cast out but that really isn't anything more than opinion since the verses do not mention anything of that nature at all.





This silence is when Satan is cast from heaven. The accuser is then not going to be making trouble there(heaven). He is making his appearance as AntiChrist here.

He has never been silent, but now he is not in front of God's thrown accusing the election.


It's speculation. Heaven is silent for half an hour but Satan will be out of heaven longer than that so it just doesn't add up.



The same angel that holds him, will release him. This MUST be Michael. (Rev9, Rev12, Rev20) Satan is released to the earth sometime in this 5th trump.

But there is no evidence of this. He is clearly cast from heaven in the 3rd trump. The angel in the 5th trump is clearly not Satan since Satan can only be kicked out of heaven one time since it says he cannot return.

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great
star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the
third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the
third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the
waters, because they were made bitter.

satan spirit has always been here, so this "star" isnt just that. a star is an angel, and this great star was spoken of by Christ.

this is satan. he is that great star which burned like a
lamp...brightness...thats what his name also means
lucifer
1966
01966 heylel {hay-lale'}
from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
AV - Lucifer 1; 1
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

he was the shining morning star...so when he is cast out he is
described as a great star that was shining brightly like a lamp when
he fell.
Wormwood is also a reference to satan because he is bitterness and is
poison to gods children. there is no other that the third trump can
be speaking of.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall
from heaven.
this isnt literal lightning but a falling or shooting star. One that
has that long tail of light that appears like a bolt of lightning,
which also denotes how bright he is, or at least likes to think he is.

lightning
796
796 astrape {as-trap-ay'}
from 797; TDNT - 1:505,86; n f
AV - lightning 8, light shining 1; 9
1) lightning
1a) of the gleam of a lamp

"the gleam of a lamp"

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great
star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the
third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the
third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the
waters, because they were made bitter.

"burning as it were a lamp"

Christ himself documenting satans fall in the 3rd trump.

Rev 12 also clearly documents satan being cast out BEFORE the first
beast NWO system rises, and before satan takes control of that world
system as the Ac in Rev 13.

So what could satan be doing before the 6th trump? he is setting up
his organization behind the scenes, waiting for when the world is
perfectly ripe to receive him. He casts out a flood of lies to ready
the world to accept his deception. this all takes planning and satan
is very cunning and will have everything ready by the time the 6th
trump sounds.




Not quite. We are awaiting his arrival, and we (the world) shall all know it, because they (the world) think that it is Christ coming on His White Horse, but as the 1st seal states, he is the fake.-Toxon-a cheap imitation. But he comes in looking like Christ, on the wings of peace, riding a white horse.

It is a misunderstanding that Satan is immediately the AC when he is cast out of heaven. Nothing in the texts suggests any such thing. He is clearly active in a non public way long before he makes his world stage appearance as the false Christ.


Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
His persecution didn't succeed so he goes off to make war with the remnant of the womans seed, which begins the 42 month tribulation rev 13

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Here we see Satan called the dragon helping the NWO, and we see a 42 month figure. All this before the 5 months when he plays the false Christ which starts in the middle of this chapter Rev 13:11

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

So, as you can see...satan was cast out of heaven and was upon the earth long before he is the Antichrist for 5 months.

Revelation 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Revelation 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Revelation 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Revelation 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Revelation 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

This also proves Satan is active and controlling this locust army before the 6th trump sounds.
Note that verse 7 says they are "prepared" for battle...but nowhere in these verses are they actually engaging in the action of battle. It is the 6th trump that we see this army engaging in war but here we only see them getting ready!

The 5th trump is about the preparation of the battle/5 month tribulation. Satan is their king during this preparation and will lead them into battle in the 6th trump but he will put on a "mask" and a disguise, and so will his angels, and he will be pretending to be Jesus and they his disciples and apostles and ministers of righteousness.





Wormwood is a different age. 1/3 is your reference.

Pardon? Satan is cast in this age and is called wormwood in this age.





Compare with Rev12, another parenthetical chapter covering the age before the flesh and this age.

Oh? I see mother Israel and the birth of Christ in Rev 12 and that means it is this age, not any previous age. Didn't you know that Israel and Christ's birth are events of this current age?




We are still awaiting Satan's casting out in this age. Satan comes here in the midst of the week, hence the middle of the tribulation.

No, he is here before the tribulation even begins according to Rev 12. He simply isn't the AC until after the tribulation begins.





I would ask you where Satan is now if you believe him to be cast out in the 3rd trump? Did the world see it?

He is here but that doesn't mean he has to prance around. The whole world didn't know he was here when he was persecution Job either. Satan is the serpent and do you know much about snakes? They hide and are experts at camouflage. Satan is in this mode now.




Satan is only on earth for the last 1/2 of the Tribulation. His angels are cast before him, marking the Trib.

According to scripture they are cast out together:


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Most of this you are getting from your Pastor's teachings I think but we always have to check what is taught against scripture because we are to be Bereans.







When Paul speaks of the change of bodies without death he is only speaking of those who are "gathered together" at the 7th trump, not the rest of the world. If you study the subject and object of the verses you will find that Paul addresses the elect only, not everyone.

That is impossible, for as 1Cor15 teaches, we must be like Him. He is changing everything, so He can dwell here. He is coming here, so, all must be changed.

So, are you saying that these others, besides the elect are still in physical flesh bodies for the 1000 years? I do not agree if that is what you are saying.


No, I was disagreeing with your original statements about all being changed without death. I believe only the 144k elect are changed in a twinkling of an eye without death and the rest of humanity will be slaughtered and change bodies in the old fashioned way. No human bodies will exist in the Millennium.







The same hour means the same time. Just moments.

I think it means within an hour as translated.




Long enough for the worls to see them as Christ decends to touche the ground, and all are changed to spirit, including the 2 witnesses. That's why they rise. All the World will witness this as we are told that all will see Christ arrive.

Ok, well I think you have the order of events wrong.








So you think God will make Moses die twice?

I realize that the scriptures say Moses died. It also says that NO MAN knows where he is buried. I find it fascinating that our Father would have Elijah and MOSES (not Enoch) transfigured to minister to Christ. This is where the possibility of Moses being one of the 2 witnesses plays in. Maybe he didn't actually die in the flesh but was taken by God. (figures of speech-dead to the world). Maybe he did die. Either way, God could have resurrected him as he did with Lazarus. There were a few people that must have died twice, right?


Only those who were ressurected died a second time. It's pushing it for me to have a span of thousands of years between a death and then a resurrection and a death again. It's possible but very unlikely to me. BTW, Moses did die. I don't think any argument against that is logical.






Order of events, as I understand them. Total time...5 months.
5th-6th-7th trumps.

5th...
-Satan and his angels are released from prison.



Only some of his angels are in prison and the text says they won't be released until judgement day. Otherwise Satan and his other angels are not imprisoned yet. They were in heaven and were free to even fight a war.





-Two Witnesses arrive.
-Satan stays in heaven and accuses the election, night and day until the 1/2 way point.


I believe Rev 12 speaks against this as Satan is cast out before the tribulation begins.




-The Fallen angels leave heaven right away and set up political Babylon-the first beast.

Satan and his angels are cast out at the same time according to Rev 12.





7th...Millennium begins-The 7th trump sounds, Christ's feet touch the earth, causing the earthquake which destroys a 10th part of the city.

The millennium only begins after the 7th trump is complete.






-The fallen angels who did rule the earth under Satan, are now figuratively killed, (as all me will be) and put in the pit. It is not the earthquake parsay that kills them, but Christ's arrival.

:) The 7000 men die in an earthquake and this is before Christ returns so I have to disagree with everything you've said.

RogerW
Apr 18th 2007, 03:52 PM
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

<<<“I suppose you forgot about this verse as well. There are more examples but this is enough to prove the fact.”>>>

Naphal, our sidebar discussion of angels has taken us away from the op. I’m glad you bring this passage of Scripture. Rev 14 is speaking of the same historical event we find in Rev 7. I hope you are not saying you believe vs. 6 proves that angels, e.g. spirit beings preach the everlasting gospel to them that dwell on earth? This is not proof for spirit messengers bringing the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, it is an announcement from heaven that the everlasting gospel will be preached unto them that dwell on the earth. That salvation is no longer limited to a single nation, but is now going unto every nation of the world.

Like Rev 7, Rev 14 begins with John seeing 144,000 standing on Mt Zion with the Lord. Vs 4 tells us “These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Then vs. 5 “And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”
You need to address what Scripture means when referring to firstfruits.

New Testament elect are said to be a “kind” of firstfruits, which signifies humans, and no other created being. We also find New Testament reference to NT elect being “firstfruits of the Spirit”, which refers to the HS permanently indwelling the elect from Pentecost forward. But the NT elect are NOT referred to as firstfruits in the same way the OT elect of God are. This is confirmed by verses that speak of the Jew first (Ro 1:16; 2:9,10), then the Greek, or Gentiles.

These 144,000 in Rev 14 are the OT elect of God pre-cross/Christ. The same as the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev 7. After John sees these OT era saints before the throne of God, then John sees the messenger flying in the midst of heaven announcing that the time has come that the gospel of salvation is to be preached unto all the earth. The same as we find in Rev 7, after John hearing the number sealed, then we read of Pentecost, then John sees a great multitude who stand before the throne having become saved during the New Covenant era in Christ’s blood.

We find similar language in Rev 12 which speaks of the church (woman) being given wings of a great eagle so that she might fly into the wilderness where she is nourished for a time from the serpent.

Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 7, 12, and 14 are all speaking of the same historical event. Which is the beginning of the universal church in time, or the New Covenant era in Christ. The sealing of the 144,000 signifies the completion or finish of the Old Testament era, and the beginning of the New Covenant era in Christ. The 144,000 firstfruits signifies the elect coming out of the Old Testament era, and the beginning of the New Covenant era in Christ with the everlasting gospel being sent unto all the world. And Rev 12 shows us the birth of Christ through the Jewish Nation, and the beginning of the New Covenant era in the establishment of the universal church in time.

Again, please support your opinions with Scripture.

RW

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2007, 06:36 PM
Great explanation Roger!

Ezekiel_37
Apr 19th 2007, 06:24 AM
Naphal, it seems that we are in a circular debate. Your understanding refutes what I understand, and my understanding refutes what you understand.



Rev12-covers the age that was and this age. Of course I understand Israel, and the child, but Israel is also Israel in the past age. Rev 12 covers a vast amount of time.

I stand firm on the Earthquake being The Great earthquake.

The Hour of Temptation. This explains the hour long time frame of the Trib. and my stance on the 1/2 hour of silence.
The Trib is also spoken of as 7 years, 2 - 3 1/2 year periods, 1 Week....and 1 Hour. Daniel teaches of the division into 2 parts.

At the 7th trump, it is done.

The events in the 7th trump...the vials of wrath are in the Millennium.

The 7th trump is the Messiah and His saints returning to Terra fir ma....which causes the earthquake.

You said that the earthquake in Rev11 kills off the witnessing elect. But then you say that those elect shall not die in the flesh??? We know that they are transformed at the 7th trump, not before so your theory has to be incorrect. They cannot be killed off before the 7th trump and avoid death at the 7th trump. This is an oxymoron.


(IMO)The 7th trump won't take but a second to be complete.

You say Satan is cast in the 3rd trump, and I say that the 3rd trump is the past age. This is the original fall of Satan, and my Pastor didn't teach me this, just so you know.

I say that there are 3 woe trumps. 5-6-7 trumps.

5- Satan cast - 6 - Armageddon -7 - Vials of wrath.

Satan is cast to earth in this age during the 5th trump.


Satan has not always been here, as when the Vail was rent, Satan was bound in heaven (almost 2000 years ago). His spirit is here, but not his body. It and his angels are locked up at this time (now). Released in the 5th trump. You will see him fall from heaven in this age, as all men will. An entrance like no other, but still a pale comparison to Christ's return.


Rev 13's 2 beasts. The first political, the 2nd religious.
The first is the fallen angels Babylon, the second is Satan.

Rev 12 is (as I have said before) parenthetical. This in no way implies that ALL the events of Rev12 happens before the events of Rev13. Rev13 spans the whole Trib, fallen angels control first, then Satan's.

Satan's Lie of flood proportions is him playing Christ. This IS the 2nd 1/2 of the Trib

So, you think Satan is here now behind the scenes?

I think that Satan gets kicked out of heaven and makes a grand entrance to fool the world. We have to see him fall from heaven, not stay hidden behind the scenes.

I think I shall leave it at that for now. It seems that you have made up your mind, so happy studying. We are going in circles.

There is much in your posts that I disagree with, as you do with mine.

but I wish you peace in Christ

Ezekiel_37
Apr 19th 2007, 06:26 AM
Roger,

144k are pre-Christ overcommers.

I had never considered that theory before. Very interesting. I shall have to give it more thought.

thanks.

DreamWeaver
Apr 19th 2007, 06:44 AM
Revelation 7:4-9 And [then] I heard how many were sealed (marked) out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: there were 144,000. 5 Twelve thousand were sealed (marked) out of the tribe of Judah, 12,000 of the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 of the tribe of Gad, 6 Twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, 12,000 of the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 of the tribe of Manasseh, 7 Twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 of the tribe of Levi, 12,000 of the tribe of Issachar, 8 Twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 of the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 of the tribe of Benjamin. 9 After this I looked and a vast host appeared which no one could count, [gathered out] of every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. These stood before the throne and before the Lamb; they were attired in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

Clearly the 144,000 are of Israel.

Ezekiel_37
Apr 19th 2007, 07:11 AM
Israel yes, but is it scattered Israel of today(many nations and tongues), or pre-Christ Israel.

The only issue I have with this speaking of the pre-Christ over comers is that for app 700 years, there was no Israel, only Judah/Ben. And then they were taken captive too. When returned, their was no peoples of the Northern tribes. just my thoughts, as I haven't considered this before.

Naphal
Apr 19th 2007, 08:24 AM
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

<<<“I suppose you forgot about this verse as well. There are more examples but this is enough to prove the fact.”>>>

Naphal, our sidebar discussion of angels has taken us away from the op. I’m glad you bring this passage of Scripture. Rev 14 is speaking of the same historical event we find in Rev 7. I hope you are not saying you believe vs. 6 proves that angels, e.g. spirit beings preach the everlasting gospel to them that dwell on earth?

That's what it says.



This is not proof for spirit messengers bringing the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, it is an announcement from heaven that the everlasting gospel will be preached unto them that dwell on the earth.

That thought counters what is actually said. The angel has the everlasting gospel to preach to the world. This is naturally a future event as it has not yet happened.




That salvation is no longer limited to a single nation, but is now going unto every nation of the world.

That concept actually started with Christ long before Rev 14 shall come to pass.




Like Rev 7, Rev 14 begins with John seeing 144,000 standing on Mt Zion with the Lord. Vs 4 tells us “These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Then vs. 5 “And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”
You need to address what Scripture means when referring to firstfruits.



I've already addressed this many times.



These 144,000 in Rev 14 are the OT elect of God pre-cross/Christ.

These 144,000 in Rev 14 are NT Christians of Israelite ethnicity.

Naphal
Apr 19th 2007, 08:34 AM
Rev12-covers the age that was and this age. Of course I understand Israel, and the child, but Israel is also Israel in the past age. Rev 12 covers a vast amount of time.

Israel did not exist in any other age but this current one. Israel stems from the sons of Jacob thus there was no Israel before Jacob. Rev 12 covers events of this age only.





The events in the 7th trump...the vials of wrath are in the Millennium.

I'll have to disagree with that. The 7th trump ends with the completion of the vials and then the Millennium begins.



You said that the earthquake in Rev11 kills off the witnessing elect. But then you say that those elect shall not die in the flesh???

I believe it is more logical to believe the 7000 killed are human men that may have been testifying. The two prophets testify and then are slain so that sets a pattern for the rest that testify. That would make the 7000 dead while the 144k survive.




We know that they are transformed at the 7th trump, not before so your theory has to be incorrect. They cannot be killed off before the 7th trump and avoid death at the 7th trump. This is an oxymoron.

One group is slain, another survives.



You say Satan is cast in the 3rd trump, and I say that the 3rd trump is the past age. This is the original fall of Satan, and my Pastor didn't teach me this, just so you know.

I am aware of that. I do not agree the 3rd trump is a different age.




Satan has not always been here, as when the Vail was rent, Satan was bound in heaven (almost 2000 years ago).

Documentation for that please.



So, you think Satan is here now behind the scenes?

Yes, as long as we are past the 3rd trump then Satan is somewhere upon the earth.



I think that Satan gets kicked out of heaven and makes a grand entrance to fool the world. We have to see him fall from heaven, not stay hidden behind the scenes.

Documentation please.




I think I shall leave it at that for now. It seems that you have made up your mind, so happy studying. We are going in circles.

There is much in your posts that I disagree with, as you do with mine.

but I wish you peace in Christ



This is part of the process of discussion. We have to find out what we believe in and challenge those things we disagree with and see if a position can be documented or not.

David Taylor
Apr 19th 2007, 04:12 PM
Israel yes, but is it scattered Israel of today(many nations and tongues), or pre-Christ Israel.

The only issue I have with this speaking of the pre-Christ over comers is that for app 700 years, there was no Israel, only Judah/Ben. And then they were taken captive too. When returned, their was no peoples of the Northern tribes. just my thoughts, as I haven't considered this before.


The Northern tribes weren't all lost as is popularly claimed today.

After the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity returned, Ezra and Nehemiah both mention peoples representative from the northern tribes as well as Judah.

After Assyria conquered the Northern Kingdom, after the reign of King Hezekiah of Judah, and even later, 100 years after Hezekiah began his reign, during the reign of Josiah, we again find the northern tribes not lost in the least.

2 Chronicles 34:1 "Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem one and thirty years. And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in the ways of David his father, and declined neither to the right hand, nor to the left. For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images. And they brake down the altars of Baalim in his presence; and the images, that were on high above them, he cut down; and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images, he brake in pieces, and made dust of them, and strowed it upon the graves of them that had sacrificed unto them. And he burnt the bones of the priests upon their altars, and cleansed Judah and Jerusalem. And so did he in the cities of Manasseh, and Ephraim, and Simeon, even unto Naphtali, with their mattocks round about. And when he had broken down the altars and the groves, and had beaten the graven images into powder, and cut down all the idols throughout all the land of Israel, he returned to Jerusalem."

Here we find two more northern tribes 'found' living in Israel after the Assyrian captivity, with Simeon and Naphtali. (Bringing the total of found 'lost tribes' up to 8.)

Again, if the 10 tribes are missing and lost somewhere in Assyria, why do we find people living in Israel over a century after the Assyrian conquest, from those 8 of the northern tribes?



During the Babylonian captivity, under the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar, we find the northern tribe of Gad...and even a rhetorical question about the 'missing tribes of Israel'....and later mention of the Gaderenes in the NT time of Christ.

Jeremiah 49:1 "Concerning the Ammonites, thus saith the LORD; Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? why then doth their king inherit Gad, and his people dwell in his cities?"

Mark 5:1 "And they came over unto the other side of the sea (of Galilee), into the country of the Gadarenes. "



If the 10 tribes are missing and lost somewhere in Assyria, why do we find people living in Israel over a century after the Assyrian conquest, from now 9 of the northern tribes....even up to the time of Jesus and the NT (counting Gad, Asher, and Levi)?

Dan,

Asher,

Zebulon,
Issachar,

Levi,

Simeon,
Naphtali,
Gad,

(Joseph)Ephraim/ManassehThat's 9 of the 10 'lost tribes' found living in Israel after Assyria conquered the Northern Kingdom in 722 BC, and several of which are specifically mentioned in the N.T.

Luke 2 specifically spoke of Anna, of the tribe of Asher.
Mark 5 specifically spoke of the Gaderenes.




Notice carefully, all of these other references written AFTER the Babylonian captivity....to the remnant and returnees of the 10 northern tribes....

After-Babylonian captivity return passages of Israel in 516 BC

Ezra 2:2 "Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mizpar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel"

Ezra 2:59 "And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel"

Ezra 2:68 "And some of the chief of the fathers, when they came to the house of the LORD which is at Jerusalem, offered freely for the house of God to set it up in his place: They gave after their ability unto the treasure of the work threescore and one thousand drams of gold, and five thousand pound of silver, and one hundred priests' garments. So the priests, and the Levites, and some of the people, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all Israel in their cities. "

Ezra 3:1 "And when the seventh month was come, and the children of Israel were in the cities, the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem."

Ezra 3:11 "And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD"

Ezra 4:3 "But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them"

Ezra 6:15 "And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king. And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy. And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel. "

Ezra 6:21 "And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat"

Ezra 7:13 "(Artaxerxes, king) I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."

Ezra 8:25 "And weighed unto them the silver, and the gold, and the vessels, even the offering of the house of our God, which the king, and his counsellors, and his lords, and all Israel there present, had offered"

Ezra 8:35 "Also the children of those that had been carried away, which were come out of the captivity, offered burnt offerings unto the God of Israel, twelve bullocks for all Israel, ninety and six rams, seventy and seven lambs, twelve he goats for a sin offering: all this was a burnt offering unto the LORD. And they delivered the king's commissions unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors on this side the river: and they furthered the people, and the house of God. Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites."

Ezra 10:5 "Then arose Ezra, and made the chief priests, the Levites, and all Israel"




Nehemiah 7:73 "So the priests, and the Levites, and the porters, and the singers, and some of the people, and the Nethinims, and all Israel, dwelt in their cities; and when the seventh month came, the children of Israel were in their cities. "

Nehemiah 12:47 "And all Israel in the days of Zerubbabel, and in the days of Nehemiah, gave the portions of the singers and the porters, every day his portion: and they sanctified holy things unto the Levites; and the Levites sanctified them unto the children of Aaron."

Malachi 1:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. "

Luke 2:36 "And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser"

Acts 4:36 "And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite"

Jeremiah 49:1 "Concerning the Ammonites, thus saith the LORD; Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? why then doth their king inherit Gad, and his people dwell in his cities?"

Mark 5:1 "And they came over unto the other side of the sea (of Galilee), into the country of the Gadarenes. "

James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience."

Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. "

Revelation 14:4 "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."










The 12 tribes were present in Jesus day, not lost. They were the firstfruits unto God, redeemed among men.

Then....the subsequent uncountable multitude from every gentile tongue and nation that would follow them during the New Testament Harvest.

No futuristic postponement whatsoever.







Or to quote Luke....whom I hold in high credibility....

Luke
1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us


1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel

2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Luke didn't expect to wait 2000+ years into the future for the salvation of the people of Israel. He heralded its arrive during His day.

RogerW
Apr 19th 2007, 04:19 PM
That's what it says.

That thought counters what is actually said. The angel has the everlasting gospel to preach to the world. This is naturally a future event as it has not yet happened.

That concept actually started with Christ long before Rev 14 shall come to pass.

I've already addressed this many times.

These 144,000 in Rev 14 are NT Christians of Israelite ethnicity.

When you post with NO Scripture to substansiate your opinions it proves only that you have opinions which may or may not be Biblical. It is only through trying our opinions by "what sayeth the Scripture" that we hopefully come to absolute truth. If you can validate some of your reasoning through the Word then perhaps we will have something further to discuss.

RW

David Taylor
Apr 19th 2007, 04:31 PM
After Assyria conquered the Northern Kingdom, during the reign of King Hezekiah of Judah, we find several of the northern tribes not being lost in the least.


2 Chronicles 30:1 "And Hezekiah (715-687 BC) sent to all Israeland Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraimand Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel. For the king had taken counsel, and his princes, and all the congregation in Jerusalem, to keep the passover in the second month. For they could not keep it at that time, because the priests had not sanctified themselves sufficiently, neither had the people gathered themselves together to Jerusalem. And the thing pleased the king and all the congregation. So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written. So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see. Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you. For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him. So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them. Nevertheless divers of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem. 18 For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one 25 And all the congregation of Judah, with the priests and the Levites, and all the congregation that came out of Israel, and the strangers that came out of the land of Israel, and that dwelt in Judah, rejoiced. "


2 Chronicles 30:25 "And all the congregation of Judah, with the priests and the Levites, and all the congregation that came out of Israel, and the strangers that came out of the land of Israel, and that dwelt in Judah, rejoiced."

2 Chronicles 31:1 "Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities."

Hezekiah dies, and Manasseh begins his reign.

2 Chronicles 33:7 "And Manasseh set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever"



Comments: If All the northern tribes were exiled to Assyria, and the 10 northern tribes thereby were 'lost', when the Assyrian captivity occurred in 722 BC, why do we find, decades afterwards, during the reigns of Hezekiah and Manasseh, people living in Israel from the northern tribes of Ephraim/Manasseh, Dan, Asher, Zebulon,Issachar, Levi(which didn't have land, and was found in both kingdoms)? (that's 6 of 10 of the missing tribes found resident in Israel, and not in exile)

Why do we find distinctions given between Judah and Israel in the same sentences? (if the 10 northern tribes were lost in the previous Assyrian Captivity?)

Why is Israel and Judah and their children both mentioned together and referred to several times if all the northern tribes were lost?

If the 10 tribes are missing and lost somewhere in Assyria, why do we find people living in Israel decades after the Assyrian conquest, from those 6 northern tribes from that one passage alone?

Naphal
Apr 19th 2007, 05:05 PM
When you post with NO Scripture to substansiate your opinions it proves only that you have opinions which may or may not be Biblical. It is only through trying our opinions by "what sayeth the Scripture" that we hopefully come to absolute truth. If you can validate some of your reasoning through the Word then perhaps we will have something further to discuss.

RW

I have posted scripture. I quoted many things from Rev which you have been questioning me about so your accusation is baseless.

David Taylor
Apr 19th 2007, 06:15 PM
Roger and Naphal.....hug :hug:, make-friends:wave:, and do the 'brothers-in-Christ boogie':monkeyd:.

Don't let your discussion with each other go in the wrong :mad: direction.

RogerW
Apr 20th 2007, 12:19 AM
Roger and Naphal.....hug :hug:, make-friends:wave:, and do the 'brothers-in-Christ boogie':monkeyd:.

Don't let your discussion with each other go in the wrong :mad: direction.

Thanks for the reminder Dave. Not to worry, one thing I've learned from posting in these forums is rude, disrespectful attitudes serve the flesh, and bring no glory and honor to the Lord. I view Naphal as a brother in Christ, and would hope he views me in the same way, and I am in fact enjoying our discussions. Which is why I have repeatedly ask Naphal to please use supporting Scripture to prove his opinions. It's easier to dispute certain opinions when you know how/why certain opinions are held.

RW

Naphal
Apr 20th 2007, 06:39 AM
Which is why I have repeatedly ask Naphal to please use supporting Scripture to prove his opinions. It's easier to dispute certain opinions when you know how/why certain opinions are held.

RW

There are six pages in this thread and I counted the times I referred to scripture or quoted scripture and only in the last two pages I did so over 20 times.



Quote:
Like Rev 7, Rev 14 begins with John seeing 144,000 standing on Mt Zion with the Lord. Vs 4 tells us “These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Then vs. 5 “And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”
You need to address what Scripture means when referring to firstfruits.


Roger claimed I have not explained how I view the firstfruits differently using scripture and I said I had. Here is a quote of my doing so:






Quote:
Quote:
Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
The best of the world in God's eyes are those who have the righteous of Christ, which includes everyone who is saved.
The firstfruits are the best of the harvest or the best of any category as seen in that verse. The Christians that remain faithful are respected more by God than the Christians that fell away in Apostasy.



So, lets stop with the claims that I am not using scripture and move on in a more friendly manner?



Not to worry, one thing I've learned from posting in these forums is rude, disrespectful attitudes serve the flesh, and bring no glory and honor to the Lord.


That way statements like the above will sound more genuine and I won't be put into a defensive mode.


Back to firstfruits and what they are. They are anything, not only fruits literally, that are the best of their category as the verse I quoted shows. The firstfruits of the oil is the best oil. The firstfruits of the wine is the best wine and so on. The same applies for the 144k first fruits. They are not the first 144k Christians but a special group of 144k Christians. They stand out and are special. I would state they are the last loyal living Christians in this flesh age as opposed to being the first ones.

RogerW
Apr 20th 2007, 03:51 PM
Naphal,

Firstfruits in Num 18:12 defined from 7225 which is more specific in that it is not only the first crop, but the very best of the first ripened crop.

In the majority of the OT passages firstfruits speak of the literal harvest from the fruit of the land. God specifies not only that the oblation should be from the first ripened crop, but also that it should be made with the very best of this first ripe crop, whether it be beast or produce.

<<<“Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
The best of the world in God's eyes are those who have the righteous of Christ, which includes everyone who is saved.
The firstfruits are the best of the harvest or the best of any category as seen in that verse. The Christians that remain faithful are respected more by God than the Christians that fell away in Apostasy.”>>>

<<<“Back to firstfruits and what they are. They are anything, not only fruits literally, that are the best of their category as the verse I quoted shows. The firstfruits of the oil is the best oil. The firstfruits of the wine is the best wine and so on. The same applies for the 144k first fruits. They are not the first 144k Christians but a special group of 144k Christians. They stand out and are special. I would state they are the last loyal living Christians in this flesh age as opposed to being the first ones.”>>>

Fristfruits in the Old Testament can be defined as either the first ripened of any crop, or it can be defined more specifically as not only the first ripened, but the very best of the first ripened produce of the crop. When the Israelites brought their oblations unto God they were to be not only the first of the ripened crop, but the very best of them. We do find verses in the OT that specifically call Israel firstfruits or the best unto God, but we don’t find NT Christians called firstfruits in this same way.

In the New Testament the word firstfruits is defined as the beginning of sacrifice, or to commence in order of time, from the beginning (See reply #31). That is what we find with the 144,000. They are the first, or from the beginning. To say they are the “best of their category” does not keep to the definition as it applies in the NT usage. You are trying to force the OT requirements of the very best of “produce” commanded for oblations unto the Lord onto the 144,000. These are NOT called the very best of the crop as we find under the OT law, but the “beginning in order of time.” Where do you find the 144,000 as being a special group of Christians? Scripture simply says they are first, or the beginning, not that they are some how better. You say they represent “the last loyal living Christians in the flesh age as opposed to being the first ones”, but where is your biblical proof?

You also say, “The Christians that remain faithful are respected more by God than the Christians that fell away in Apostasy.” There is no such thing as a Christian who falls away! If one falls away, it is proof they were never Christian.

RW

Naphal
Apr 20th 2007, 06:42 PM
Naphal,

Firstfruits in Num 18:12 defined from 7225 which is more specific in that it is not only the first crop, but the very best of the first ripened crop.

In the majority of the OT passages firstfruits speak of the literal harvest from the fruit of the land. God specifies not only that the oblation should be from the first ripened crop, but also that it should be made with the very best of this first ripe crop, whether it be beast or produce.

When Christ returns there will be a harvest and a ripe crop. These are the firstfruits and they shall be raptured out of the field first. They are the best examples of Christians at that time. This is also the difference between the one taken and the one left behind.



We do find verses in the OT that specifically call Israel firstfruits or the best unto God, but we don’t find NT Christians called firstfruits in this same way.

We do in Revelation 14.




In the New Testament the word firstfruits is defined as the beginning of sacrifice, or to commence in order of time, from the beginning (See reply #31). That is what we find with the 144,000. They are the first, or from the beginning. To say they are the “best of their category” does not keep to the definition as it applies in the NT usage. You are trying to force the OT requirements of the very best of “produce” commanded for oblations unto the Lord onto the 144,000.

What a firstfruit is hasn't changed so I have changed nothing. The 144k are a future harvest of firstfruits when Christ returns. This is seen in the second part of Rev 14 which explains why and how the 144k come to be with Christ on Zion in the first half. They were the first gathered together by Christ while all the rest go to the winepress of wrath. This is similar to how apples are picked. The best and choicest apples are picked and gathered in baskets while the rest and tossed to the ground. A second harvest happened for the misshapen or damaged apples. These go to the cider press since any flaws do not affect how apple cider is made. The physically better apples are known as the firstfruits and are suitable for sale as whole apples. The rest become cider or sauce or any number of other products. A firstfruit would never be used for the very first harvest a farmer ever had so you are misusing the term to backwards apply it to the first Christians. The term cannot mean this.




These are NOT called the very best of the crop as we find under the OT law, but the “beginning in order of time.”

Only because they are picked first when Christ returns.




Where do you find the 144,000 as being a special group of Christians?

Besides what is said about them in Rev 14 they are also the only end times Christians that receive a special seal of God prior to the tribulation.




Scripture simply says they are first, or the beginning, not that they are some how better.

All firstfruits are better than the rest of the harvest. God explains this in the scripture I posted earlier.



You say they represent “the last loyal living Christians in the flesh age as opposed to being the first ones”, but where is your biblical proof?

Revelation. All but those sealed will take the mark of the beast and therefore commit Apostasy. Only the 144k are raptured because they are the only faithful Christians in the world at that time. All the rest had been killed in the tribulation or had Apostasized themselves.


You also say, “The Christians that remain faithful are respected more by God than the Christians that fell away in Apostasy.” There is no such thing as a Christian who falls away! If one falls away, it is proof they were never Christian.

I don't agree. If a Christian falls away this means they have ceased being a Christian or they couldn't have fallen away in the first place.

napsnsnacks
Apr 21st 2007, 08:23 AM
What I find curious is that they are all males and out of all the millions and millions people that could possibly comprise the 12 tribes and out of those 12 tribes only 144,000 will become Christians, it seems that no females from any of these tribes will achieve salvation during the tribulation.

That set me to looking for any references to the females of the 12 tribes of Israel being cursed and incapable of repenting.

quiet dove
Apr 21st 2007, 05:04 PM
What I find curious is that they are all males and out of all the millions and millions people that could possibly comprise the 12 tribes and out of those 12 tribes only 144,000 will become Christians, it seems that no females from any of these tribes will achieve salvation during the tribulation.

That set me to looking for any references to the females of the 12 tribes of Israel being cursed and incapable of repenting.

That would certainly change things and is a good point napsacks, but what if the 144, of chapter 14 are not the same as the 144 of chapter 7. The only reason they tend to be seen as the same group is because of the number of them. What if they are two different groups?

seeker_truth
Apr 21st 2007, 08:42 PM
Israel yes, but is it scattered Israel of today(many nations and tongues), or pre-Christ Israel.

The only issue I have with this speaking of the pre-Christ over comers is that for app 700 years, there was no Israel, only Judah/Ben. And then they were taken captive too. When returned, their was no peoples of the Northern tribes. just my thoughts, as I haven't considered this before.

The ten northern tribes are alive and healthy in Israel, and have been that way since the return of Judah from Babylonian captivity.
They were drawn out of the waters of Judah.

seeker_truth

Naphal
Apr 22nd 2007, 03:28 AM
What I find curious is that they are all males and out of all the millions and millions people that could possibly comprise the 12 tribes and out of those 12 tribes only 144,000 will become Christians, it seems that no females from any of these tribes will achieve salvation during the tribulation.


Women could have been martyred during the tribulation as faithful Christians.

napsnsnacks
Apr 22nd 2007, 08:59 PM
Women could have been martyred during the tribulation as faithful Christians.

Yes, could be, just like there are Jewish Christians now who aren't part of the 144,000.

That river of blood deep as horses bridle belongs to someone. Christians.

napsnsnacks
Apr 22nd 2007, 09:02 PM
That would certainly change things and is a good point napsacks, but what if the 144, of chapter 14 are not the same as the 144 of chapter 7. The only reason they tend to be seen as the same group is because of the number of them. What if they are two different groups?

Interesting. I'll take a look at that.

Ezekiel_37
Apr 23rd 2007, 06:11 AM
What I find curious is that they are all males and out of all the millions and millions people that could possibly comprise the 12 tribes and out of those 12 tribes only 144,000 will become Christians, it seems that no females from any of these tribes will achieve salvation during the tribulation.

That set me to looking for any references to the females of the 12 tribes of Israel being cursed and incapable of repenting.
As well as your observation, the elect are referred to as virgin brides in waiting, a feminine quality. The election are represented as 12x12,000. I believe that biblical numeric deems this to mean 'the perfect number' of souls, not a specific counting, but a spiritual counting. Thousands meaning many, and 12 being governmental perfection. The actual number may not be 144,000 per say... what ever the number is fine with me...and I think that both male and female will be election.

Seeker of truth wrote:

The ten northern tribes are alive and healthy in Israel, and have been that way since the return of Judah from Babylonian captivity.
They were drawn out of the waters of Judah.



The ten northern tribes are also scattered abroad to the 4 corners of the world.

Only a sparse few returned from exile, as the majority did not and migrated elsewhere. They have become peoples and nations, and these are to whom Israel is in prophecy, separated from Judah prophecy's.

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2007, 06:39 AM
As well as your observation, the elect are referred to as virgin brides in waiting, a feminine quality. The election are represented as 12x12,000. I believe that biblical numeric deems this to mean 'the perfect number' of souls, not a specific counting, but a spiritual counting.


No, it has no such meaning. When God gives a specific number that number is always exact.


Thousands meaning many, and 12 being governmental perfection. The actual number may not be 144,000 per say... what ever the number is fine with me...and I think that both male and female will be election.

But the 144k can only be men or else God would have said 144k of men and women.

seeker_truth
Apr 23rd 2007, 07:09 AM
As well as your observation, the elect are referred to as virgin brides in waiting, a feminine quality. The election are represented as 12x12,000. I believe that biblical numeric deems this to mean 'the perfect number' of souls, not a specific counting, but a spiritual counting. Thousands meaning many, and 12 being governmental perfection. The actual number may not be 144,000 per say... what ever the number is fine with me...and I think that both male and female will be election.

Seeker of truth wrote:

The ten northern tribes are alive and healthy in Israel, and have been that way since the return of Judah from Babylonian captivity.
They were drawn out of the waters of Judah.



The ten northern tribes are also scattered abroad to the 4 corners of the world.

Only a sparse few returned from exile, as the majority did not and migrated elsewhere. They have become peoples and nations, and these are to whom Israel is in prophecy, separated from Judah prophecy's.

I don't understand what you are saying, 'separated from Judah prophecy's'.

seeker_truth

David Taylor
Apr 23rd 2007, 03:06 PM
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But the 144k can only be men or else God would have said 144k of men and women.



That's not a consistent rule.

If you applied that as a consistent rule throughout the Bible, women would be exclude from most everything; because in most cases the term 'men' is used groupingly and non-specific to gender....but as a reference to mankind which also includes women.

Some other plentiful examples where men is used to denote mankind, (and not to exclusion of women):
I Peter 2:17 "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood."
James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally"
Hebrews 12:23 "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men "
I Timothy 4:10 "we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men "
I Thess "3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men "
Ephesians 4:8 "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. "
Acts 17:31 "he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. "
Luke 9:56 "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
Mark 6:12 "And they went out, and preached that men should repent."
Matthew 4:19 "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men ."None of these examples, specify "men and women"....yet the intent of all of their useage of the term 'Men" meant "mankind" and were not intended to be gender specific.

Women aren't left out, just because the clause "and women" isn't appended to the word men.


The 144K holds within it many faithful women of Israel.

DurbanDude
Apr 23rd 2007, 04:24 PM
True but 'they did not defile themselves with women' seems also to indicate they are men.

If you read Joel , esp Joel 2 , it will give an OT perspective of that moment the 144 000 are sealed. I believe the seal of God is just another phrase for receiving the holy spirit , and Joel confirms there will be an outpouring of the holy spirit on the Jews at that moment. The NT has a consistent thread of referring to us being sealed with the holy spirit.

Other verses refer to that period of Israel as a time of safety until the northern army arrives , I think that even though the antichrist himself comes to power in Israel , for some reason that we will only understand in the future Jews will be given more time and less pressure to receive the mark of the beast , and when all of earth has made their choice these last 144 000 Jews will only recognise Jesus as the true Messiah when their country is being invaded by armies and then they will cry out to Jesus who will seal them with his spirit and rescue them and earth.

napsnsnacks
Apr 23rd 2007, 05:45 PM
That's not a consistent rule.

If you applied that as a consistent rule throughout the Bible, women would be exclude from most everything; because in most cases the term 'men' is used groupingly and non-specific to gender....but as a reference to mankind which also includes women.

Some other plentiful examples where men is used to denote mankind, (and not to exclusion of women):
I Peter 2:17 "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood."
James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally"
Hebrews 12:23 "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men "
I Timothy 4:10 "we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men "
I Thess "3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men "
Ephesians 4:8 "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. "
Acts 17:31 "he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. "
Luke 9:56 "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
Mark 6:12 "And they went out, and preached that men should repent."
Matthew 4:19 "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men ."None of these examples, specify "men and women"....yet the intent of all of their useage of the term 'Men" meant "mankind" and were not intended to be gender specific.

Women aren't left out, just because the clause "and women" isn't appended to the word men.


The 144K holds within it many faithful women of Israel.

We can't dismiss Genesis either where it says that "man" was made in Gods image an then the female was made from part of Adam.

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2007, 07:06 PM
That's not a consistent rule.

If you applied that as a consistent rule throughout the Bible, women would be exclude from most everything; because in most cases the term 'men' is used groupingly and non-specific to gender....but as a reference to mankind which also includes women.


The 144k are not called "men" but they are said to not be defiled by women making them virgins.


Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This would not be a reference to Lesbianism but to Heterosexual men that were virgins.



The 144K holds within it many faithful women of Israel.

Just like the 12 disciples did? Like the Priesthood? No, women have important places but there are some places God reserves only for men. The 144k are men.

David Taylor
Apr 23rd 2007, 07:24 PM
Spiritual chastity has nothing to do with gender.

2 Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

David Taylor
Apr 23rd 2007, 07:31 PM
women have important places but there are some places God reserves only for men. The 144k are men.


Not anymore. Women are priests through Christ now, and forevermore.

I'm sure the orthodox Jews who call Jesus and Paul blasphemers are planning to rebuild a stone temple made with hands and lining up males only to be their priests for their planned red-heifer animal sacrifices...


Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Any sisters out there with an Amen??

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2007, 09:07 PM
Spiritual chastity has nothing to do with gender.

2 Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

Sure it does. We are not spiritually male. We are all female in that sense and are espoused to a male.

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2007, 09:09 PM
Not anymore. Women are priests through Christ now, and forevermore.

I'm sure the orthodox Jews who call Jesus and Paul blasphemers are planning to rebuild a stone temple made with hands and lining up males only to be their priests for their planned red-heifer animal sacrifices...


Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Any sisters out there with an Amen??

That speaks of Christians, not priests of Christianity.

David Taylor
Apr 23rd 2007, 09:53 PM
That speaks of Christians, not priests of Christianity.


There is no difference.

A priest of Christianity, is nothing more than a messenger to the lost of the Good News Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Women are just as effective as men are as being "priests of Christianity" as you call it.

That approach to the word 'priests' would exclude females from the passages below, solely because they are referring to us being priests.


I Peter 2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. "
I Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"
Rev 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."


Rev 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ"

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2007, 10:00 PM
There is no difference.

Yes there is. Women are not allowed to be priests. In the ressurection there will be no literal male or females and then all are the same but the need for priests is not the same then as is now.



A priest of Christianity, is nothing more than a messenger to the lost of the Good News Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"nothing more" he? I think a little more highly of the office of Priest.




Women are just as effective as men are as being "priests of Christianity" as you call it.

That approach to the word 'priests' would exclude females from the passages below, solely because they are referring to us being priests.


Rev 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Rev 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

So you think women are also Kings?

David Taylor
Apr 23rd 2007, 10:07 PM
Yep....

You must be a bachelor.

You say in the resurrection there will be males and females....but don't you also venue Ezekiel 40-48 as occurring after the 2nd Coming and after the resurrection of the just?

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2007, 10:15 PM
Yep....

You must be a bachelor.

Stay on topic David.


You say in the resurrection there will be males and females

No I did not.



....but don't you also venue Ezekiel 40-48 as occurring after the 2nd Coming and after the resurrection of the just?

Those chapters are not prophecy and have nothing to do with this topic.

napsnsnacks
Apr 24th 2007, 04:26 AM
The 144k are not called "men" but they are said to not be defiled by women making them virgins.


Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This would not be a reference to Lesbianism but to Heterosexual men that were virgins.

Yes I was going to mention that after reading all this and if one takes it any further than virgin males and tosses females into the 144,000 they would have to be lesbians and that doesn't go down well with the scriptures.

John146
Apr 24th 2007, 06:41 PM
The 144,000 are firstfruits and from the twelve tribes of Israel. I believe their identity is found in the book of James. Let's see a comparison:

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. - Revelation 7:4

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. - Revelation 14:4

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. - James 1:18

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. - James 1:27

So, we see here that James was speaking to the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered abroad. The 144,000 are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Then James says that the believers from the twelves tribes of Israel that he was writing to were a kind of firstfruits of God's creatures. I believe he was referring to the fact that they were the first Christians. They weren't the first believers ever, but they were the first believers under the new covenant. Remember, as we read in the book of Acts, the gospel was preached to the Jews and in Israel first before going to the Gentiles. I believe it is speaking of spiritual virgins: those who were "undefiled before God" and were spiritually pure by keeping themelves "unspotted from the world".

BeOfGoodCourage
Apr 24th 2007, 07:05 PM
The 144,000 are firstfruits and from the twelve tribes of Israel. I believe their identity is found in the book of James. Let's see a comparison:

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. - Revelation 7:4

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. - Revelation 14:4

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. - James 1:18

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. - James 1:27

So, we see here that James was speaking to the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered abroad. The 144,000 are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Then James says that the believers from the twelves tribes of Israel that he was writing to were a kind of firstfruits of God's creatures. I believe he was referring to the fact that they were the first Christians. They weren't the first believers ever, but they were the first believers under the new covenant. Remember, as we read in the book of Acts, the gospel was preached to the Jews and in Israel first before going to the Gentiles. I believe it is speaking of spiritual virgins: those who were "undefiled before God" and were spiritually pure by keeping themelves "unspotted from the world".


Exactly! Classic illustration of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Well done.

Naphal
Apr 24th 2007, 08:24 PM
They weren't the first believers ever, but they were the first believers under the new covenant.

They are neither. They are saints which remained loyal to Christ and preserved their virginity throughout the tribulation. The harvest is after the tribulation and the firstfruits of that harvest are then the ones gathered at that time. John was taken to the future to witness future events. Some of what he saw had been past for him but most was future and most very distant future. Most of Rev is still future for us today. Preterists and Amils and various other groups will see most or all of Rev as the past which naturally will affect how they interpret it and scripture as a whole.

John146
Apr 25th 2007, 02:10 AM
They are neither. They are saints which remained loyal to Christ and preserved their virginity throughout the tribulation. The harvest is after the tribulation and the firstfruits of that harvest are then the ones gathered at that time. John was taken to the future to witness future events. Some of what he saw had been past for him but most was future and most very distant future. Most of Rev is still future for us today. Preterists and Amils and various other groups will see most or all of Rev as the past which naturally will affect how they interpret it and scripture as a whole.

At least I provided Scripture to back up my opinion. Where is your Scriptural support? Your opinions are completely unconvincing. By the way, I don't see most of Revelation as occurring in the past nor most of it occurring in the future. Some occurred in the past, some is ongoing and some is fulfilled in the future. The preaching of the Israelite firstfruits led to multitudes of believers from all nations and continues on today. That multitude is depicted in Revelation 7:9. The great tribulation is not just a period of 7 years at the end of time as people would like you to believe. The great tribulation spoken of in Rev 7:9 is the entire New Testament period. Believers have been persecuted from the beginning. All who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution(2 Timothy 3:12). I don't see why believing the 144,000 were the first converts from Israel after the first coming of Christ means that I think most of Revelation is already fulfilled. What I see in Revelation are several parallels that cover the time between the first coming of Christ and the second coming of Christ. Not all amils are preterists.

Naphal
Apr 25th 2007, 02:26 AM
At least I provided Scripture to back up my opinion. Where is your Scriptural support?

You used scripture that didn't prove what you were claiming so what good is that? My scripture is all of Rev.


The preaching of the Israelite firstfruits led to multitudes of believers from all nations and continues on today. That multitude is depicted in Revelation 7:9.

Rev 7:9 shows the overcomers of all time after the final judgement not believers preached to by the first Christians. A careful study of that part of scripture will show that it is the eternity being depicted.



The great tribulation is not just a period of 7 years at the end of time as people would like you to believe.

The great tribulation is 42 months.



The great tribulation spoken of in Rev 7:9 is the entire New Testament period.

Actually it is not limited to just that.

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 25th 2007, 02:33 AM
The 144,000 are the First Fruits of Christianity. These are the Jewish believers in Christ who fled Jerusalem just before it was fully surrounded in 70a.d.

Again, key words: FIRST FRUITS

Thanks for the thread

Naphal
Apr 25th 2007, 02:57 AM
The 144,000 are the First Fruits of Christianity. These are the Jewish believers in Christ who fled Jerusalem just before it was fully surrounded in 70a.d.

Again, key words: FIRST FRUITS

Thanks for the thread

The first Christians weren't all Israelites so it makes the theory impossible. The idea is disharmonious to the flow of Revelation anyways. It's just the Preterist attempt to alter prophecy into history.

BeOfGoodCourage
Apr 25th 2007, 02:59 AM
The first Christians weren't all Israelites so it makes the theory impossible. The idea is disharmonious to the flow of Revelation anyways. It's just the Preterist attempt to alter prophecy into history.
No, but I'll bet 144 thousand of them might have been.

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 25th 2007, 03:02 AM
The first Christians weren't all Israelites so it makes the theory impossible. The idea is disharmonious to the flow of Revelation anyways. It's just the Preterist attempt to alter prophecy into history.

You are reading your presupposition into the text. First, the 144,000 are the first fruits. The text says so. They are Jewish Christians no matter how many other non-Jews were believers at the time.

As far as harmony of Revelation, that is a Red Herring. Revelation goes forwards and backwards in time and looks at the same event from different perspectives. To write my comments off as Preterist as if it is a cuss word is quite revealing.

BTW, that's Partial Preterist to you.

Benaiah
Apr 25th 2007, 03:58 AM
Yes there is. Women are not allowed to be priests. In the ressurection there will be no literal male or females and then all are the same but the need for priests is not the same then as is now.

So we are going to be resurrected minus some body parts? we are to endure hardship, suffering, and tribulation only in the end to be treated like stray alley cats and be neutered? :eek:

Naphal
Apr 25th 2007, 04:47 AM
You are reading your presupposition into the text. First, the 144,000 are the first fruits. The text says so. They are Jewish Christians no matter how many other non-Jews were believers at the time.

But they aren't the first 144k Christians. That's where you are adding and altering the text to fit into your theology.


As far as harmony of Revelation, that is a Red Herring. Revelation goes forwards and backwards in time and looks at the same event from different perspectives.

It does do that but the context of the 144k standing with Christ puts that at His return not back just after his death, or before his death depending on whether 144k were Christians at that time.





To write my comments off as Preterist as if it is a cuss word is quite revealing.

BTW, that's Partial Preterist to you.



Doesn't matter what you put before Preterist, it's still Preterism.

John146
Apr 25th 2007, 05:16 AM
You used scripture that didn't prove what you were claiming so what good is that? My scripture is all of Rev.

You're not taking the Scripture and clearly pointing out why you believe what you do. You're just giving your opinions. If my interpretation of the verses from James is wrong, then show me why. Otherwise, I have no reason to take you seriously.



Rev 7:9 shows the overcomers of all time after the final judgement not believers preached to by the first Christians. A careful study of that part of scripture will show that it is the eternity being depicted.

I would allow for that possibility since Revelation 7 is a parenthetical chapter. The point is that the multitude resulted from the faithful preaching of the early Israelite firstfruits.

Naphal
Apr 25th 2007, 05:57 AM
You're not taking the Scripture and clearly pointing out why you believe what you do. You're just giving your opinions. If my interpretation of the verses from James is wrong, then show me why. Otherwise, I have no reason to take you seriously.

I already did: "It does do that but the context of the 144k standing with Christ puts that at His return not back just after his death, or before his death depending on whether 144k were Christians at that time."

You have to address the context of the scriptures of your theory won't stand. The verses in James use *some* similar language but to use that to say the 144k are the first Christians is poor scholarship. It may look good to a novice but not to anyone else.




I would allow for that possibility since Revelation 7 is a parenthetical chapter. The point is that the multitude resulted from the faithful preaching of the early Israelite firstfruits.

Why stop at Israelites? Christianity has grown because of all Christians that spread the gospel.

John146
Apr 25th 2007, 04:26 PM
I already did: "It does do that but the context of the 144k standing with Christ puts that at His return not back just after his death, or before his death depending on whether 144k were Christians at that time."

You have to address the context of the scriptures of your theory won't stand. The verses in James use *some* similar language but to use that to say the 144k are the first Christians is poor scholarship. It may look good to a novice but not to anyone else.

You say that the context is of the 144,000 standing with Christ at His return, but that is baseless. Where is your support for that idea? Because it mentions Mount Zion? As we've discussed (and disagreed) before, Mount Zion is in heaven and refers to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22). The location of what is spoken about in Revelation 14:1-5 is clearly depicted as being heaven. You have the voice from heaven in verse 2 and the fact that the 144,000 are redeemed FROM the earth in verse 3. How can you be redeemed FROM the earth and still be on the earth? And then in verse 5 it says they are without fault before the throne of God. Where is the throne of God? In heaven.



Why stop at Israelites? Christianity has grown because of all Christians that spread the gospel.

Yes, I know that, but it says the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. The multitudes are from all nations.

Naphal
Apr 25th 2007, 09:10 PM
You say that the context is of the 144,000 standing with Christ at His return, but that is baseless. Where is your support for that idea? Because it mentions Mount Zion? As we've discussed (and disagreed) before, Mount Zion is in heaven and refers to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22). The location of what is spoken about in Revelation 14:1-5 is clearly depicted as being heaven. You have the voice from heaven in verse 2 and the fact that the 144,000 are redeemed FROM the earth in verse 3. How can you be redeemed FROM the earth and still be on the earth? And then in verse 5 it says they are without fault before the throne of God. Where is the throne of God? In heaven.

As you said we have already discussed this. Christ and the 144k are on the earth while voices are heard from heaven etc. The second half of the chapter shows how the 144 came to be gathered together with Christ.




Yes, I know that, but it says the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. The multitudes are from all nations.

The multitudes are clearly all then but the 144k of the tribes of Israel are simply not the first Christians converted from Judaism.

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 25th 2007, 10:05 PM
But they aren't the first 144k Christians. That's where you are adding and altering the text to fit into your theology.

I never said the first 144,000 people to become Christians. So, I never read anything into the Text. The context is discussing Jews who are believers. And they are referred to as FIRST FRUITS. AND the are described as the 144,000. No gentile believers are mentioned.

It does do that but the context of the 144k standing with Christ puts that at His return not back just after his death, or before his death depending on whether 144k were Christians at that time.

Now you are again reading your presupposition in to the text. Scripture clearly describes Christ coming in judgment. Christ mentions his potential coming numerous times to the Churches of Revelation. But he did not have to come bodily to do that. The same goes for 70 a.d.


Doesn't matter what you put before Preterist, it's still Preterism.

Partial Preterism is not heretical. Full Preterism, IMO is. So, to throw around tags in this case is wrong.



Have a nice day.

davidturtledove
Apr 25th 2007, 10:26 PM
It is impossible for any non-christian to be of the elect(144,000) as those who do not acknowledge Jesus as Lord have the spirit of the anti-christ. Therefore any jew confessing His name becomes a Christian upon doing so. So the elect is reserved for Christians alone! Obviously to truly be a jew you must believe in Christ so you really can't have one without the other as unbelieving jews are not really jews at all but a syngogue of satan.

These whom the Lord has chosen will not be able to make any earthly claim to their entitlement, just as God is able to raise up children to abraham from the stones of the earth so He will raise up the true descendants of Israel from His blood!

Naphal
Apr 26th 2007, 04:05 AM
I never said the first 144,000 people to become Christians. So, I never read anything into the Text. The context is discussing Jews who are believers. And they are referred to as FIRST FRUITS. AND the are described as the 144,000. No gentile believers are mentioned.

Ok, then we agree there.



Now you are again reading your presupposition in to the text. Scripture clearly describes Christ coming in judgment. Christ mentions his potential coming numerous times to the Churches of Revelation. But he did not have to come bodily to do that.

You deny the bodily return??


Partial Preterism is not heretical. Full Preterism, IMO is. So, to throw around tags in this case is wrong.


You consider full Preterism a heresy and I agree.

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 26th 2007, 04:19 AM
[/size]


You deny the bodily return??

No. Partial Preterism believes in a bodily return. And, I'm not rat-holing myself into a Corner with Partial Preterism. I have Amil leanings too. I just continue to sort out the hermaneutic.


I base my point on what true heresy is. If a doctrine attacks the Trinity, the Person and Work of Christ or Justification by faith alone, then it is heresy. Full Pretrism denies a return of Christ (His work). And from what I understand, they don't believe in a final consummation of history. You have not yet defined how you determine Heresy.




You consider full Preterism a heresy and I agree

Define heresy




BTW, you will then be calling R.C. Sproul, John Calvin, John Knox, and the Hodges (A.A. and Charles) all heretics based on what you have mentioned thus far.

You should re-think your position.

David Taylor
Apr 26th 2007, 02:31 PM
Partial-Preterism is not considered heretical by this forum and is within the pale of orthodoxy.

Full-Preterism is considered heretical by this forum, and is not allowed to be advanced.

Do not badger or antagonism Partial-Preterism or its adherents.

Do not bear false witness against Partial-Preterists by lumping them in will Full-Preterism.

Partial-Preterism, Dispensationalism, Pre, Mid, and Post-Tribulationalism, Pre, A, and Postmillennialism, are all within the orthodox umbrella of Protestantism.

None should be unduly antagonized, malaligned, or insulted as heretical. Believe what you want, but keep the antagonistic comments to yourself, because nothing edifying or fruitful comes from placing the 'heretical' label on others that fall within the pale of Protestant Orthodoxy.

This is a overall warning.....Partial-Preterist bashing (or lumping with Full-Preterism) has been steadily growing as of late, and should stop immediately. If antagonistic jabs continue, the infraction system will flow freely to those who disregard this request against being antagonistic.

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 26th 2007, 08:15 PM
Partial-Preterism is not considered heretical by this forum and is within the pale of orthodoxy.

Full-Preterism is considered heretical by this forum, and is not allowed to be advanced.

Do not badger or antagonism Partial-Preterism or its adherents.

Do not bear false witness against Partial-Preterists by lumping them in will Full-Preterism.

Partial-Preterism, Dispensationalism, Pre, Mid, and Post-Tribulationalism, Pre, A, and Postmillennialism, are all within the orthodox umbrella of Protestantism.

None should be unduly antagonized, malaligned, or insulted as heretical. Believe what you want, but keep the antagonistic comments to yourself, because nothing edifying or fruitful comes from placing the 'heretical' label on others that fall within the pale of Protestant Orthodoxy.

This is a overall warning.....Partial-Preterist bashing (or lumping with Full-Preterism) has been steadily growing as of late, and should stop immediately. If antagonistic jabs continue, the infraction system will flow freely to those who disregard this request against being antagonistic.

Thank You ... and Have a nice weekend too!!

John146
Apr 26th 2007, 11:04 PM
I have a solution. Just start calling yourselves partial-futurists. :D

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 27th 2007, 01:03 AM
Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

napsnsnacks
Apr 27th 2007, 02:21 AM
I have a solution. Just start calling yourselves partial-futurists. :D

Actually it would be Future Partialists.

David Taylor
Apr 27th 2007, 01:00 PM
**Moderator Note**

This thread is about the 144,000....let's get it back on topic.

All of this wild speculation about angels and their sexual activities, etc....doesn't belong in this thread about the 144K, and frankly, the last couple of posts board on being just plain sick.

If you want to continue that discussion, instead of this current one on the 144,000, then go visit those angel-sex posts in their own thread here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=85898). I have moved them all out of this thread, and started their own thread in the Controversial Issues Section.

Move it over there, if you feel the need to continue that discussion.

**

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 27th 2007, 06:57 PM
**Moderator Note**

This thread is about the 144,000....let's get it back on topic.

All of this wild speculation about angels and their sexual activities, etc....doesn't belong in this thread about the 144K, and frankly, the last couple of posts board on being just plain sick.

If you want to continue that discussion, instead of this current one on the 144,000, then go visit those angel-sex posts in their own thread here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=85898). I have moved them all out of this thread, and started their own thread in the Controversial Issues Section.

Move it over there, if you feel the need to continue that discussion.

**

Can we get people to use the quote function to identify who they are responding to. I use the Threaded Mode and when I look at posts, I can see who each post is supposed to connect to.

But reading the context, I can see that the messages just don't line up with each other. An example would be your moderator post. You are rightfully chastizing people for getting off topic in the discussion of sexual things. Yet, in the mode that I use, it appears as if you are speaking to me.

I have noted this at least a dozen times this week.

Thanks,

YP

Ezekiel_37
Apr 28th 2007, 06:13 AM
The ten northern tribes are also scattered abroad to the 4 corners of the world.

Only a sparse few returned from exile, as the majority did not and migrated elsewhere. They have become peoples and nations, and these are to whom Israel is in prophecy, separated from Judah prophecy's.


I don't understand what you are saying, 'separated from Judah prophecy's'.

seeker_truth

I meant to imply that Israel has end time prophecy and so does Judah, independant of each other.

In otherwords, it is my opinion that Israel's prophecies are for the scattered abroad, and Judah's is for the current nation of Israel. Jerusalem's prophecies are for the city of Jerusalem.

Not all are meant for the current nation of Israel.

napsnsnacks
Apr 28th 2007, 02:28 PM
The ten northern tribes are also scattered abroad to the 4 corners of the world.

Only a sparse few returned from exile, as the majority did not and migrated elsewhere. They have become peoples and nations, and these are to whom Israel is in prophecy, separated from Judah prophecy's.



I meant to imply that Israel has end time prophecy and so does Judah, independant of each other.

In otherwords, it is my opinion that Israel's prophecies are for the scattered abroad, and Judah's is for the current nation of Israel. Jerusalem's prophecies are for the city of Jerusalem.

Not all are meant for the current nation of Israel.


The problem that arises with that in some circles and is now arising in the church is the question of exactly who are these people now who say they are Jews when they can't demonstrate this heritage from the tribe of Judah as others can demonstrate their races and nationalities and proposals from some who have claimed to have traced the origins of modern day "Jews" back to a people known as Khazars, Turkish people who adopted Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

"Jews" is a catch all phase in or day (coined in the 1800's) for "Israelites" "Hebrews" members of the tribe of "Judah."

Also in the end times there will be this big issue with: "which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;"

So all this is yet to unfold as to exactly who are the Jews as we understand them today.