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Debra R
Apr 5th 2007, 03:33 AM
I saw this quote by Naphal from the thread " Holy Spirit or Holy Person?" thread....
Christ didn't raise himself from the dead. This is best for another thread.


When I read that quote this scripture immediately came to mind........

(NKJ) John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”


Yes, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead.

What do you say?


Have a good evening. Blessings :hug:

Love, Deb

Scruffy Kid
Apr 5th 2007, 04:25 AM
Did Christ Raise Himself From the Dead?
... (NKJ) John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Yes, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead.Thanks for this excellent question and post, Deb. To your very apposite citation from John's gospel we may add that Acts 2:24b says "that it was not possible" for death "to hold" Christ Jesus.

Yet that verse (2:24a) also says that God raised him up, and the affirmation that God (by implication, God the Father) raised Christ from the dead is repeated throughout Acts (3:14, 4:10, 13:30, 13:34, 17:31), at Hebrews 11:19, I Peter 1:21, and throughout the letters of Paul (Rom 4:24, 10:9, I Cor 15:15-16, Eph 1:20, Col. 2:12, and Gal 1:1 which explicitly says that God the Father raised him from the dead as does I Thes. 1:10 which speaks of God raising His son from the dead.)

Romans 8:9-11 speaks of how being in the Spirit of God -- here, clearly, he means the Holy Spirit -- makes us alive in Christ; and 8:11 says "if the Spirit that raised (or roused) Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised Christ from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies by the selfsame (or, by His) Spirit that dwells in you." This verse seems to suggest that God the Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

The primary language in Scripture, then, speaks of God raising Christ from the dead, or secondarily of Christ "being raised", and many places that speak of God raising Christ strongly imply God the Father raised Him (by suggesting one who acted upon Christ, raising him), and several places are explicit that the Father raised Christ, or that God raised His Son, from the dead.

However, Romans 8 seems clearly to imply that the Holy Spirit raised Christ, and will raise others (where elsewhere Scripture often says God will raise them), and the verse Jesus speaks in John 10:17 clearly seems to say that Jesus raised himself from the dead; while Acts 2 suggests at least that death did not have power to hold him.

Thus, the emphasis on the act of God the Father in raising Christ from the dead is supplemented by specific references that the Spirit raised him and that Christ arose of Himself, or raised himself. The general idea that "God" raised Christ is also used in ways that leave open whether "God" refers to the Father, or to the entirety of the Godhead.

In theology it's generally maintained (rightly) that the acts of the Holy Trinity ad extra (i.e., to the created order, rather than simply within the Trinity) proceed from Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together (for, God is one!) Thus it seems fitting, and in accord with the unity of God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God -- in our salvation that Scripture speaks at various points in ways that speak simply of God raising Christ, in ways that speak of Christ arising by the power within Him, of the Spirit raising Him, and of the Father raising Him, although with emphasis on the latter. Since Christ -- though He is in His essential identity the eternal word and God the Son -- is here being spoken of in regard to his mortal and human nature, in regard to which (only) He said "my Father is greater than I", it seems natural that the accent should be on the Father raising Jesus from death.

But this does not in any way negate that the Spirit of God raised Him, nor that death had no power to hold Him, nor that He laid down His life and picked it up again as He would, having received that command from the Father.

All these things are true, gloriously true, together and at once, I believe.

Glory be to God for His love and unity, immortality and majesty, for His ineffable goodness and beauty and power, forever and forever. Amen!

Diggindeeper
Apr 5th 2007, 04:48 AM
Romans 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The same spirit that raised Christ from the dead...

Debra...I earnestly believe every Christian who has that same spirit...no grave will hold them! Our mortal bodies shall be quickened, and we shall be raised from the dead.

John 11: 23-26
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Naphal
Apr 5th 2007, 07:39 AM
I saw this quote by Naphal from the thread " Holy Spirit or Holy Person?" thread....


When I read that quote this scripture immediately came to mind........

(NKJ) John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”


Yes, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead.

What do you say?


Have a good evening. Blessings :hug:

Love, Deb

Except this only says he had the power to "take it again" not that he used this power when it came time. He didn't, God the Father, Christ's Father raised Jesus from the dead and the Father did this by sending his Spirit rather than doing it "in person".


Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

One way to identify who or what the Holy Spirit is is by studying who raised Jesus from the dead. Here we read that it was "the Spirit of him" as in the Spirit of God. But it is been disputed what this means. Does this mean a spirit that God sent as opposed to his own personal, unique spirit? Does it mean the Spirit is a person separate from the Father meaning not the Father but someone else?

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Duane Morse
Apr 5th 2007, 08:14 AM
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus did not say that His Father would raise Him, nor did He say He would be raised.
He quite plainly said that He would raise Himself.

There are only two ways at looking at this question.
One way assumes that Jesus did not lie.
The other way is that Jesus lied.

One way is to think that Jesus could have been mistaken.
The other is that the writers that said the Father raised Jesus from the dead could have been mistaken.


In answer to the OP's question:
I think Jesus raised Himself from death.

Naphal
Apr 5th 2007, 08:20 AM
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus did not say that His Father would raise Him, nor did He say He would be raised.
He quite plainly said that He would raise Himself.

There are only two ways at looking at this question.
One way assumes that Jesus did not lie.
The other way is that Jesus lied.

One way is to think that Jesus could have been mistaken.
The other is that the writers that said the Father raised Jesus from the dead could have been mistaken.


Or we could realize much of what Christ said was really what the Father was telling him to say and that it was the Father's words and statements:


John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Lisadawn
Apr 5th 2007, 10:53 AM
I think it was the Holy Spirit who raised Christ from the dead. Since he indwells each believer, he gives us the promise of resurrection when we die and also power to have an abundant life while we are still here.

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11, NKJV)


1. Resurrection life in the future
"We sorrow not as those who have no hope" (1 Thess. 4:13) by the promise of a bodily resurrection at Christ's return (Phil. 3:20,21). "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8)


Our eternal life and present spiritual life are based on the miraculous resurrection of Christ. He assured the disciples, "Because I live, you will live also" (John 14:19). His victory over death assures us of our victory over death. "Now Christ is risen from the dead and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (physically died - 1 Cor. 15:20). As the firstfruits were the promise of the remainder of the harvest, so Christ's resurrection is the guarantee of our resurrection.


2. Resurrection life in the present

Romans 8:11 seems to be focusing on this same biblical truth - the hope of bodily resurrection of the believer.

The context, however, seems to indicate that the "life" promised here is the present possession of the child of God. Verse two says that "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

The same God who raised Christ from the dead dwells in us who believe.
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what
are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places (Eph. 1:13,18-20).

What amazing promises he has given to us to not only live with Christ forever, but have an abundant life now!

Lisa

hillbilly dave
Apr 5th 2007, 12:14 PM
When Jesus arrived at Mary's to comfort what she thought was the loss of a brother. The man Jesus had a groan and his Spirit was troubled. Jesus said in Jn. 11:26 Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believeth thou this? In verse 40 stated that if they would believe they should see the Glory of God. The crucifiction of Christ was to take Gods wrath upon Himself and be the perfect unblemished sacrificed lamb for mans sin. The ressurection was show hope to all and the most important God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were glorified that as satan brought spiritual death to Gods children; God defeated satans destruction plan with a salvation plan. That destruction was replaced with resurrection. In shorter terms it took the entire Godhead.

Silent Wings
Apr 5th 2007, 03:01 PM
Yes, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead.

What do you say?



If He didn’t then He is unique in that He is the only human ever that will not have been raised by the One who made the astonishing claim, “I AM the resurrection.” And this is one claim our Lord made that I choose not to disregard.



John 5

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29And shall come forth;

blbcHelvsme
Apr 5th 2007, 04:53 PM
I saw this quote by Naphal from the thread " Holy Spirit or Holy Person?" thread....


When I read that quote this scripture immediately came to mind........

(NKJ) John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”


Yes, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead.

What do you say?


Have a good evening. Blessings :hug:

Love, Deb
Yes and no. Ok, guess I have some explaining :~) Jesus and the Father are 2 separate, but the same entity(ie Elohim). Thus Jesus raised himself on First Fruits(3rd day after being crucified on Passover) and at the same time the Father raised Him on First Fruits.

Debra R
Apr 6th 2007, 12:18 AM
Thanks for this excellent question and post, Deb. To your very apposite citation from John's gospel we may add that Acts 2:24b says "that it was not possible" for death "to hold" Christ Jesus.

Yet that verse (2:24a) also says that God raised him up, and the affirmation that God (by implication, God the Father) raised Christ from the dead is repeated throughout Acts (3:14, 4:10, 13:30, 13:34, 17:31), at Hebrews 11:19, I Peter 1:21, and throughout the letters of Paul (Rom 4:24, 10:9, I Cor 15:15-16, Eph 1:20, Col. 2:12, and Gal 1:1 which explicitly says that God the Father raised him from the dead as does I Thes. 1:10 which speaks of God raising His son from the dead.)

Romans 8:9-11 speaks of how being in the Spirit of God -- here, clearly, he means the Holy Spirit -- makes us alive in Christ; and 8:11 says "if the Spirit that raised (or roused) Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised Christ from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies by the selfsame (or, by His) Spirit that dwells in you." This verse seems to suggest that God the Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

The primary language in Scripture, then, speaks of God raising Christ from the dead, or secondarily of Christ "being raised", and many places that speak of God raising Christ strongly imply God the Father raised Him (by suggesting one who acted upon Christ, raising him), and several places are explicit that the Father raised Christ, or that God raised His Son, from the dead.

However, Romans 8 seems clearly to imply that the Holy Spirit raised Christ, and will raise others (where elsewhere Scripture often says God will raise them), and the verse Jesus speaks in John 10:17 clearly seems to say that Jesus raised himself from the dead; while Acts 2 suggests at least that death did not have power to hold him.

Thus, the emphasis on the act of God the Father in raising Christ from the dead is supplemented by specific references that the Spirit raised him and that Christ arose of Himself, or raised himself. The general idea that "God" raised Christ is also used in ways that leave open whether "God" refers to the Father, or to the entirety of the Godhead.

In theology it's generally maintained (rightly) that the acts of the Holy Trinity ad extra (i.e., to the created order, rather than simply within the Trinity) proceed from Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together (for, God is one!) Thus it seems fitting, and in accord with the unity of God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God -- in our salvation that Scripture speaks at various points in ways that speak simply of God raising Christ, in ways that speak of Christ arising by the power within Him, of the Spirit raising Him, and of the Father raising Him, although with emphasis on the latter. Since Christ -- though He is in His essential identity the eternal word and God the Son -- is here being spoken of in regard to his mortal and human nature, in regard to which (only) He said "my Father is greater than I", it seems natural that the accent should be on the Father raising Jesus from death.

But this does not in any way negate that the Spirit of God raised Him, nor that death had no power to hold Him, nor that He laid down His life and picked it up again as He would, having received that command from the Father.

All these things are true, gloriously true, together and at once, I believe.

Glory be to God for His love and unity, immortality and majesty, for His ineffable goodness and beauty and power, forever and forever. Amen!

Hey Scruffy :hug: , thank you so much. I appreciate your thoughts and the scripture you posted.

I also wanted to add this that BadDog posted from the other thread........


John 2:18-22 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?"

But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.



I was also thinking of.......... Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.


Jesus created all things. Jesus had the power (still does) to calm the winds, to walk on water, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, and raise the dead, and much much more. So of course He had the power to raise Himself.


The One God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- Raised Christ from the Dead!

I agree. :) :hug:

Debra R
Apr 6th 2007, 12:23 AM
Except this only says he had the power to "take it again" not that he used this power when it came time. He didn't, God the Father, Christ's Father raised Jesus from the dead and the Father did this by sending his Spirit rather than doing it "in person".


Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

One way to identify who or what the Holy Spirit is is by studying who raised Jesus from the dead. Here we read that it was "the Spirit of him" as in the Spirit of God. But it is been disputed what this means. Does this mean a spirit that God sent as opposed to his own personal, unique spirit? Does it mean the Spirit is a person separate from the Father meaning not the Father but someone else?

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

:hug: Thank you Naphal for your reply.

Debra R
Apr 6th 2007, 12:30 AM
If He didn’t then He is unique in that He is the only human ever that will not have been raised by the One who made the astonishing claim, “I AM the resurrection.” And this is one claim our Lord made that I choose not to disregard.



John 5

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29And shall come forth;

Thank you :)


“I AM the resurrection.”

Yes, Jesus is the resurrection! :pp

Debra R
Apr 6th 2007, 12:34 AM
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus did not say that His Father would raise Him, nor did He say He would be raised.
He quite plainly said that He would raise Himself.

There are only two ways at looking at this question.
One way assumes that Jesus did not lie.
The other way is that Jesus lied.

One way is to think that Jesus could have been mistaken.
The other is that the writers that said the Father raised Jesus from the dead could have been mistaken.


In answer to the OP's question:
I think Jesus raised Himself from death.

:) Hey Duane, I was just rereading your post and the first verse jumped out at me
...........Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Yes, Jesus has all power!

Thank you. :)

Naphal
Apr 6th 2007, 01:13 AM
Thank you Naphal for your reply.

You're very welcome!





Yes, Jesus is the resurrection! :pp

Yes he is but I think the assumption by the poster is that Christ was his own resurrection as in he raised himself rather than allowing His Father to raise him. I don't agree that the full Godhead raised Jesus from the dead even though it's a nice thought. I believe Jesus is our resurrection :)


I also want to add this:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
KJV

Here the words "I will" do not appear in the manuscripts so Christ never actually claimed he would raise the temple himself.


John 5:45
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
KJV


As opposed to this where the Greek word for I is used, ego.

NT:1473
ego (eg-o'); a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):

KJV - I, me. For the other cases and the plural see NT:1691, NT:1698, NT:1700, NT:2248, NT:2249, NT:2254, NT:2257, etc.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)




Mark 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.


Keep in mind those who claimed he would do it himself were false witnesses. He didn't say he would destroy it, he didn't say he would build it so the false witnesses are adding quite a bit to what he actually said.

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 6th 2007, 11:07 AM
You're very welcome!




Yes he is but I think the assumption by the poster is that Christ was his own resurrection as in he raised himself rather than allowing His Father to raise him. I don't agree that the full Godhead raised Jesus from the dead even though it's a nice thought. I believe Jesus is our resurrection :)


I also want to add this:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
KJV

Here the words "I will" do not appear in the manuscripts so Christ never actually claimed he would raise the temple himself.


John 5:45
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
KJV


As opposed to this where the Greek word for I is used, ego.

NT:1473
ego (eg-o'); a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):

KJV - I, me. For the other cases and the plural see NT:1691, NT:1698, NT:1700, NT:2248, NT:2249, NT:2254, NT:2257, etc.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)




Mark 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.


Keep in mind those who claimed he would do it himself were false witnesses. He didn't say he would destroy it, he didn't say he would build it so the false witnesses are adding quite a bit to what he actually said.

Hi Naphal.

After reading through this thread, and researching back through a few of your posts within your own thoughts on a similar subject, I'm compelled to ask you who else holds to the same doctrine on the Trinity as you, if you'd be so kind to answer?

Meaning, they way I read your comments, I am seeing that you believe that the Holy Spirit is not a Person within the triunity of God, - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit... [IE maybe as best and simply described within Matthew 28:19] that ---- at least as I am understanding your writings, that any reference to God's Spirit, deals with God the Father?

So is there some denomination or preacher, or some biblical scholar that you reference or refer to in capturing or supporting your doctrine of the Trinity?

Just curious as I read your works to any background to your doctrines...


Thanks for the consideration...

RbG

divaD
Apr 6th 2007, 01:38 PM
IMO, I believe the answer can be found in Jonah CH 2.

Jonah 2:1 *Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

10 *And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Naphal
Apr 6th 2007, 07:14 PM
Hi Naphal.

After reading through this thread, and researching back through a few of your posts within your own thoughts on a similar subject, I'm compelled to ask you who else holds to the same doctrine on the Trinity as you, if you'd be so kind to answer?

Outside of the writers of scripture, I do not know exactly.




Meaning, they way I read your comments, I am seeing that you believe that the Holy Spirit is not a Person within the triunity of God, - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit... [IE maybe as best and simply described within Matthew 28:19] that ---- at least as I am understanding your writings, that any reference to God's Spirit, deals with God the Father?

Yes, as well as there are some verses equating the Spirit with the Son as well. For simplicity I refer to the HS as the Father's Spirit as Christ did.




So is there some denomination or preacher, or some biblical scholar that you reference or refer to in capturing or supporting your doctrine of the Trinity?

Just curious as I read your works to any background to your doctrines...



My belief stems solely from the scriptures. If I listened to "some denomination or preacher, or some biblical scholar" I'd believe the Holy Spirit was a Holy Person like so many do.





Thanks for the consideration...

RbG



We had a long thread on this that came to an end and is now closed. I think you should read through that thread (Holy Spirit or Holy Person?) and then privately send me questions and comments as I think the Mods tolerated that topic long enough. Thank you.

Naphal
Apr 6th 2007, 07:15 PM
IMO, I believe the answer can be found in Jonah CH 2.

Jonah 2:1 *Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

10 *And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Can you explain this?

divaD
Apr 6th 2007, 07:44 PM
Can you explain this?



Matthew 12:40 *For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


So if you take jonas to represent Christ, and the whale's belly to represent the heart of the earth, then it seems clear that Jesus prayed unto the Father from within the heart of the earth, and after 3 days and 3 nights, the Father spake unto the earth(fish) that held Jesus in it's heart(whale's belly), and ressurrected(vomited) Jesus back to the land of the living(dry land).

I'm using the same english words that were translated from the Hebrew into English, in the OT. So it's not my choice of words, such as 'vomited'.

Debra R
Apr 6th 2007, 09:42 PM
You're very welcome!




Yes he is but I think the assumption by the poster is that Christ was his own resurrection as in he raised himself rather than allowing His Father to raise him. I don't agree that the full Godhead raised Jesus from the dead even though it's a nice thought. I believe Jesus is our resurrection :)


I also want to add this:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
KJV

Here the words "I will" do not appear in the manuscripts so Christ never actually claimed he would raise the temple himself.


John 5:45
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
KJV


As opposed to this where the Greek word for I is used, ego.

NT:1473
ego (eg-o'); a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):

KJV - I, me. For the other cases and the plural see NT:1691, NT:1698, NT:1700, NT:2248, NT:2249, NT:2254, NT:2257, etc.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)




Mark 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.


Keep in mind those who claimed he would do it himself were false witnesses. He didn't say he would destroy it, he didn't say he would build it so the false witnesses are adding quite a bit to what he actually said.




Yes he is but I think the assumption by the poster is that Christ was his own resurrection as in he raised himself rather than allowing His Father to raise him. I don't agree that the full Godhead raised Jesus from the dead even though it's a nice thought.

:) Hello Naphal,
Let me ask you.....Do you think that Jesus didn't have the power to raise Himself?

I was thinking on this today.......God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three, yet One. So whatever the Father does is the same as if the Son or Holy Spirt did it and whatever the Son does is the same as if by the Father or Holy Spirit, and so with the Holy Spirit.




I believe Jesus is our resurrection :)

Yes, Jesus is our resurrection.
Blessings. :)

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 6th 2007, 10:17 PM
Outside of the writers of scripture, I do not know exactly.





Yes, as well as there are some verses equating the Spirit with the Son as well. For simplicity I refer to the HS as the Father's Spirit as Christ did.




My belief stems solely from the scriptures. If I listened to "some denomination or preacher, or some biblical scholar" I'd believe the Holy Spirit was a Holy Person like so many do.






We had a long thread on this that came to an end and is now closed. I think you should read through that thread (Holy Spirit or Holy Person?) and then privately send me questions and comments as I think the Mods tolerated that topic long enough. Thank you.


Thanks for the reply, it was as what I expected... So basically, your exegesis is self-directed, self-taught, meaning that you read and make your own interpretations, free from any outside influence like a teacher or preacher or any commentaries, or of the such? And because you hold a different view as to the Person or even role of the Holy Spirit, then I should assume that your position is that He does not live within the believer?

And the reason why I ask is because I saw your teaching within the other post that you referenced, but my delay is seeing it until today, and that it now being closed, I hope Debra doesn't mind my questioning here, only because she raised this issue for this thread and your reply continues the same position you hold from that thread...


So one last question, OK maybe two :saint: ...

To your understanding, does God leave His throne? And here is why I ask... Starting from Genesis 1

Genesis 1:1,2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

In verse one, we see God and in verse 2 we see Spirit of God. So by your comments, I'd take this that both verses refer to God the Father in your estimation...would I be correct to assume this?

And my second question in follow-up would be then who is "The Spirit of the Lord" that has so many references within the OT?

Thanks again Naphal for your gracious reply...


RbG

Naphal
Apr 6th 2007, 11:20 PM
Matthew 12:40 *For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


So if you take jonas to represent Christ, and the whale's belly to represent the heart of the earth, then it seems clear that Jesus prayed unto the Father from within the heart of the earth, and after 3 days and 3 nights, the Father spake unto the earth(fish) that held Jesus in it's heart(whale's belly), and ressurrected(vomited) Jesus back to the land of the living(dry land).

I'm using the same english words that were translated from the Hebrew into English, in the OT. So it's not my choice of words, such as 'vomited'.


Oh ok. I agree that since Jonah is the type and Jonah didn't save himself from the whale then Christ would not raise himself from the dead, though he was God and could if he wanted.

Naphal
Apr 6th 2007, 11:25 PM
:) Hello Naphal,
Let me ask you.....Do you think that Jesus didn't have the power to raise Himself?

I believe he had the power to do anything but that he did not raise himself from the death. His Father raised him.





I was thinking on this today.......God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three, yet One. So whatever the Father does is the same as if the Son or Holy Spirt did it and whatever the Son does is the same as if by the Father or Holy Spirit, and so with the Holy Spirit.



There is a difference between something the Father does for the Son and the son doing something for the Father. It's all for the greater good but it is important to know who did what. The Father raised Christ from the dead, Christ did not do it himself. This is just as important as knowing the Son died for our sins and not the Father. There are different "persons" in the Trinity for a reason and each has specific tasks and roles. Sometimes they all work together and do the same thing or things and at other times each does something unique.







Yes, Jesus is our resurrection.
Blessings. :)


Amen.

Naphal
Apr 6th 2007, 11:31 PM
This is too much off topic so I will answer this and refrain from any further.


Thanks for the reply, it was as what I expected... So basically, your exegesis is self-directed, self-taught, meaning that you read and make your own interpretations, free from any outside influence like a teacher or preacher or any commentaries, or of the such?

I have studied the various positions and then I studied the matter personally in the scriptures and formed my beliefs directly from what is written.



And because you hold a different view as to the Person or even role of the Holy Spirit, then I should assume that your position is that He does not live within the believer?

I find this insulting and won't answer it.





So one last question, OK maybe two :saint: ...

To your understanding, does God leave His throne? And here is why I ask... Starting from Genesis 1

Genesis 1:1,2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

In verse one, we see God and in verse 2 we see Spirit of God. So by your comments, I'd take this that both verses refer to God the Father in your estimation...would I be correct to assume this?



I believe so.



And my second question in follow-up would be then who is "The Spirit of the Lord" that has so many references within the OT?


That is the Holy Spirit.

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 6th 2007, 11:57 PM
This is too much off topic so I will answer this and refrain from any further.



I have studied the various positions and then I studied the matter personally in the scriptures and formed my beliefs directly from what is written.




I find this insulting and won't answer it.






I believe so.





That is the Holy Spirit.



Thanks Naphal... And I'm sorry you took my question as being insulting, for I was just asking how you view the Holy Spirit within your dogma... was never meant to insult, but inquire...

Debra R
Apr 7th 2007, 04:01 AM
This is from the "Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals"




Who Raised Jesus from the Dead?

"Who raised Jesus from the dead?" It is natural to inquire about the details of an event so important to us. But we should first remember that the Bible avoids providing us details about what happened within the tomb when Jesus arose in resurrection life. We know he was killed and buried, that the tomb was sealed and guarded by Roman soldiers. But the next thing we learn is that when the women arrive on the third day with anointing spices, the stone was rolled away and Jesus was gone.

The situation here is similar to that of the cross. God does not provide us intimate details of Jesus’ excruciating suffering. The Bible mainly tells us that he was crucified and died. Likewise, we are told that Jesus rose from the death. The Bible’s chief concern is with the bare facts, along with their saving significance for all who believe. This being the case, we should never try to reconstruct or dramatize those holy moments in Jesus’ experience about which the Bible is silent.

But one thing the Bible is not shy in speaking about is the answer to the question "Who raised Jesus from the dead?" Perhaps the most pointed answer was given by Peter in his Pentecost sermon, just weeks after the resurrection: "God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it" (Acts 2:24). The answer is that "God raised him up."

The obvious follow-up question is "Who, within the Trinity, raised Jesus from the grave?" Here, things become interesting, because the biblical answer is "Yes." That is, at different places, the Bible ascribes the raising of Jesus to each of the three members of the Trinity: God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

No doubt, the majority of references point to God the Father. Where we read, "God raised Jesus," we should certainly take this as a reference to God the Father. This emphasizes a number of things. First, it is the God to whom Jesus cried, and into whose hands Jesus committed his Spirit, who raised him from the dead. In Matthew 27:43, we read of the chief priests mocking Jesus: "He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.’" By the resurrection, Jesus’ claims regarding his relationship as Son to the Father were proved to be true, and God the Father was proved to be faithful to all who trust in him.
Moreover, Peter could say, "The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree" (Acts 5:30), so that the resurrection was a proof that the Old Testament is fulfilled by the risen Christ.

The Bible also ascribes Christ’s resurrection to Jesus’ own power as Second Person of the Godhead. This is in keeping with the power he claimed to Martha at the tomb of Lazarus: "I am the resurrection and the life" (Jn. 11:25). Jesus said in John 10:17-18, "I lay down my life that I may take it up again… I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." Hebrews 7:16 says that Jesus lives for ever because he possesses "the power of an indestructible life." The point is that being the ever-living divine Son, the Alpha and Omega, death could not hold Jesus, and therefore death cannot hold those who belong to Jesus in faith.

Lastly, there are references to the Holy Spirit raising Jesus from the dead. Romans 1:4 says that Jesus "was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead" (Rom. 1:4). More blatantly, Romans 8:11 says, "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." The point is made evident right there, that the Spirit’s work in our lives is analogous to his work in raising Jesus from the dead. To be born again by the Spirit, is to experience a spiritual resurrection.

This ends up providing a useful lesson in Trinitarian theology, namely, that in the work of any member of the Trinity, the other two members are always intimately involved. Everything the Trinity does is done by all of the Trinity. Surely, in the case of the resurrection of Christ, the great preponderance of references speaks of God the Father as the leading actor. But the Son and the Spirit were also responsible in the resurrection, just as all three divine Persons are actively involved in our spiritual rebirth and on-going sanctification, which is our first resurrection, just as they will together conspire to ensure our second and final resurrection on the great day to come. To all Three be glory.



And with this I agree. Blessings :hug:

Naphal
Apr 7th 2007, 05:58 AM
The obvious follow-up question is "Who, within the Trinity, raised Jesus from the grave?" Here, things become interesting, because the biblical answer is "Yes." That is, at different places, the Bible ascribes the raising of Jesus to each of the three members of the Trinity: God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Uh huh...lets see what evidence they list for Jesus raising himself from the dead:



The Bible also ascribes Christ’s resurrection to Jesus’ own power as Second Person of the Godhead. This is in keeping with the power he claimed to Martha at the tomb of Lazarus: "I am the resurrection and the life" (Jn. 11:25).

This is hardly evidence that Jesus raised himself up from the dead. Jesus became the resurrection and the life but this isn't evidence of him raising himself.



Jesus said in John 10:17-18, "I lay down my life that I may take it up again… I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

And naturally this is not in the past tense as in "He laid down his life that he could take it up again… he had authority to lay it down, and he did take it up again."

All this says is he had the power to give up his life or take it back. His Father allowed him this but even this isn't the same as Jesus claiming that he would raise himself from the dead, only that he could if he wanted. All we have to do is read the accounts about who raised him to find out he did not raise himself. He could have, but he didn't have to and didn't need to.



Hebrews 7:16 says that Jesus lives for ever because he possesses "the power of an indestructible life." The point is that being the ever-living divine Son, the Alpha and Omega, death could not hold Jesus, and therefore death cannot hold those who belong to Jesus in faith.

This isn't really related enough. We all know that Jesus wasn't literally dead only his human body was and this is true of anyone when they die. Jesus did die the first death, death of the human body. Jesus' body remained dead for three days and then returned to that body and it was raised by his Father back to life In a transfigured state. Kind of a merger of the human body with the spiritual body. But who takes credit and who is given credit for this? The Father of Jesus.

Naphal
Apr 7th 2007, 06:01 AM
Thanks Naphal... And I'm sorry you took my question as being insulting, for I was just asking how you view the Holy Spirit within your dogma... was never meant to insult, but inquire...


I believe in everything the bible states about the spirit including dwelling in Christians. I saw no reason for you to make assumptions that I wouldn't believe in that. It looked like a "low blow" to me.

gertiegrl
Apr 8th 2007, 10:43 AM
Oh jeepers, this thread scares me, Im sorry - but why is it so important? This is obviously a thread that someone as new as I to the Christian faith shouldn't be posting in - but my limited understanding screams ... WHO CARES? The fact of the matter remains that our Lord Christ Jesus was ressurected. And seeing as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE why on earth does it matter who raised Jesus? If it was Jesus power, or God's power why does it matter when they are one and the same?

As I say, as a theologian I have no value, I can't offer scripture to support anything - I just ask...why is it important?

Duane Morse
Apr 8th 2007, 11:15 AM
Oh jeepers, this thread scares me, Im sorry - but why is it so important? This is obviously a thread that someone as new as I to the Christian faith shouldn't be posting in - but my limited understanding screams ... WHO CARES? The fact of the matter remains that our Lord Christ Jesus was ressurected. And seeing as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE why on earth does it matter who raised Jesus? If it was Jesus power, or God's power why does it matter when they are one and the same?

As I say, as a theologian I have no value, I can't offer scripture to support anything - I just ask...why is it important?
Because nit-picking keeps our minds occupied, I suppose.
Twisting scripture this way and that, using it to our own best advantage, that sort of thing.

There is no end to it, it seems.
When all else fails, pick something to argue about. It is human nature, after all.

And above all, stick to your guns. Never give in. Pick a point of view and carry it as if your very Life depended on it.

Did Jesus raise Himself, or did the Father, or did the Holy Spirit, or did a combination of any two or three of them do it?

Were the 'days' in Genesis 1 periods of 24 hours, or were they based upon some other consideration?

The list can go on for as long as eternity.

Was Satan cast out (along with 1/3 of the angels) between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, as so many suggest - even though that event is described in Revealtion chapter 12 - yet everything in Revelation is a description of things yet to come:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;


But, we will argue points non sequitur, all day and night long.

Naphal
Apr 10th 2007, 01:04 AM
Oh jeepers, this thread scares me, Im sorry - but why is it so important? This is obviously a thread that someone as new as I to the Christian faith shouldn't be posting in - but my limited understanding screams ... WHO CARES? The fact of the matter remains that our Lord Christ Jesus was ressurected. And seeing as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE why on earth does it matter who raised Jesus? If it was Jesus power, or God's power why does it matter when they are one and the same?

As I say, as a theologian I have no value, I can't offer scripture to support anything - I just ask...why is it important?

This is related to different views of the Godhead. Modalists will say Christ raised himself because they believe Christ and the Father are the same person. Trinitarians believe the Father and Son are two different but closely related "people".

Aside from that, everything has some importance and some of us just enjoy trying to figure things out and discuss them with others.

Debra R
Jun 9th 2007, 12:37 AM
Aside from that, everything has some importance and some of us just enjoy trying to figure things out and discuss them with others.


Nice answer. :)

Debra R
Jun 9th 2007, 12:51 AM
The other day I was talking with a loved one in my family of whom I have been concerned about their salvation. We had been talking of death and the hereafter, of who would go to heaven. I had told them the most important thing was their relationship with God. That they believed Jesus, that He died on the cross for their sin and rose from the grave. It was only after I got home that I thought of Romans 10:9. I was like, man, why didn't I remember that verse to tell them. I hate when I do that. Anyway it made me think of this thread :D.


Romans 10: 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


:)

calidog
Jun 9th 2007, 05:43 AM
(NKJ) John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”


Yes, Jesus did raise Himself from the dead.

What do you say?


Yes He did.

The bible also says God raised Him from the dead.

That would make Jesus God.

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 05:45 AM
Yes He did.

The bible also says God raised Him from the dead.

That would make Jesus God.

Jesus is God but that's not how we know. Please supply any verse that credits Christ in the past tense for having raised himself from the dead. Every scripture I know of says his Father did it not him.

calidog
Jun 9th 2007, 05:56 AM
Jesus is God but that's not how we know. Please supply any verse that credits Christ in the past tense for having raised himself from the dead. Every scripture I know of says his Father did it not him.You are correct that (as far as I know) there is no mention in past tense.

Where does it say the Father raised Him? I only know of where it says God raised Him.

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 06:03 AM
You are correct that (as far as I know) there is no mention in past tense.

Where does it say the Father raised Him? I only know of where it says God raised Him.


Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.


Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

calidog
Jun 9th 2007, 06:07 AM
Very good.

I believe the Father, the Spirit, and the Son raised the Son from the dead.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 06:09 AM
Very good.

I believe the Father, the Spirit, and the Son raised the Son from the dead.

I understand but I would want proof that Christ actually raised himself or helped. I know he could have, and had the power to but that's not the same as doing it.

calidog
Jun 9th 2007, 06:18 AM
I understand but I would want proof that Christ actually raised himself or helped. I know he could have, and had the power to but that's not the same as doing it.

Joh 10:17 For this [reason] the Father loves Me, because I lay down My [own] life--to take it back again.



Joh 10:18 No one takes it away from Me. On the contrary, I lay it down voluntarily. [I put it from Myself.] I am authorized and have power to lay it down (to resign it) and I am authorized and have power to take it back again. These are the instructions (orders) which I have received [as My charge] from My Father.


This indicates He was directly involved with the resurrection, not simply the object (or should I say subject) of the resurrection.

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 06:22 AM
Joh 10:17 For this [reason] the Father loves Me, because I lay down My [own] life--to take it back again.



Joh 10:18 No one takes it away from Me. On the contrary, I lay it down voluntarily. [I put it from Myself.] I am authorized and have power to lay it down (to resign it) and I am authorized and have power to take it back again. These are the instructions (orders) which I have received [as My charge] from My Father.


This indicates He was directly involved with the resurrection, not simply the object of the resurrection.


Yet nothing credits him with anything of this nature after the resurrection occurred. All I see in the above is Christ having the power and authority to lay his life down and "take it back" which isn't resurrection but the choice to not lay his life down.

calidog
Jun 9th 2007, 06:33 AM
Yet nothing credits him with anything of this nature after the resurrection occurred. All I see in the above is Christ having the power and authority to lay his life down and "take it back" which isn't resurrection but the choice to not lay his life down.I agree with you on the above bolded part.

He indeed chose to lay down His life. Did He choose to take it back again? I say yes. Did He lay down His life? Yes. Did He take it back again? Yes. He chose to, and He did (both lay it down and take it back again.

Joh 10:17 For this [reason] the Father loves Me, because I lay down My [own] life--to take it back again.

Joh 10:18 No one takes it away from Me. On the contrary, I lay it down voluntarily. [I put it from Myself.] I am authorized and have power to lay it down (to resign it) and I am authorized and have power to take it back again. These are the instructions (orders) which I have received [as My charge] from My Father.

Did He do it alone?
No, the Father sent Him for this purpose. The Father, the Glory of the Father, and the Spirit of the Father raised Him from the dead (past tense) .

Jesus Himself said He (Jesus) will "take it back again."

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 06:41 AM
I agree with you on the above bolded part.

He indeed chose to lay down His life. Did He choose to take it back again? I say yes. Did He lay down His life? Yes. Did He take it back again? Yes. He chose to, and He did (both lay it down and take it back again.

Joh 10:17 For this [reason] the Father loves Me, because I lay down My [own] life--to take it back again.

Joh 10:18 No one takes it away from Me. On the contrary, I lay it down voluntarily. [I put it from Myself.] I am authorized and have power to lay it down (to resign it) and I am authorized and have power to take it back again. These are the instructions (orders) which I have received [as My charge] from My Father.

Did He do it alone?
No, the Father sent Him for this purpose. The father, the glory of the father, the Spirit of the Father raised Him from the dead(past tense)

Jesus Himself said He (Jesus) will "take it back again."

Too much speculation for me. If Jesus actually had raised himself I am certain it would be written at least one time but every time it's written about we have someone else raising him.

SIG
Jun 9th 2007, 06:45 AM
Perhaps we are wrestling with the concept of God (the Son) being dead. But He WAS dead, which was required for the atonement--and to pay the full price for our sins.

Being dead, He left the power to raise Himself up in the Father's hands. He had the same faith that Abraham did when asked to sacrifice Isaac.

He is of course fully God. But being also fully man, He trusted the Father to resurrect Him.

I have given no Scripture to support this. I am speculating.

calidog
Jun 9th 2007, 06:48 AM
I don't see the speculation, just going with scripture.
My personal conclusion at this time God (trinity) raised Him and that Jesus was more than just the subject or vessel of the ressurection, though He was indeed the subject or vessel.

Duane Morse
Jun 9th 2007, 09:21 AM
I don't see the speculation, just going with scripture.
My personal conclusion at this time God (trinity) raised Him and that Jesus was more than just the subject or vessel of the ressurection, though He was indeed the subject or vessel.
I tend to agree.

Jesus as a man could not have done it by himself.

But, Jesus as the Almighty God...

That is another thing.

Throughout the Bible the Almighty is mentioned.
Genesis, Numbers, Ruth, Job, Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekial, Joel.

Only once in the NT, however:
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus is more than Man.
He is more than Spirit.
He is even more than...

He is God Almighty.
The Father...
The Spirit...
The Son...
Man...

All wrapped up into a single package.


He raised Himself from death, as He said He would... and He raised Himself both as, and by, God.

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 02:23 PM
He is God Almighty.
The Father...
The Spirit...
The Son...
Man...

All wrapped up into a single package.


He raised Himself from death, as He said He would... and He raised Himself both as, and by, God.



This sounds like modalism which teaches Jesus is the Father and the Son and that God is only one person acting in different modes or roles or offices.

Jesus is not "The Father...The Spirit...The Son...Man...
All wrapped up into a single package."

Jesus is God the Son who is a different "package" than His Father.

SeekerSA
Jun 9th 2007, 02:26 PM
Greetings in Christ

I liked the newbies response, "What difference does it make"

To my knowledge these is only one scripture where a three manifestations of God are present in one place at the same time.

It was at the baptism of Jesus by John

Jesus was in the water (God incarnate)
The Spirit descended on Him like a dove (God's Holy Spirit)
And a Voice came from heaven saying, "This is my Son..." (God the Father unseen)

This proves not or proves a Trinity. Simply a triple manifestation of God.

God is Omniscient so we need not boggle our brains how God gets this right.

So who raised Jesus, stick with God so whether you believe 3-in-1 or 3-of 3 you're safe.

Blessings

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 02:29 PM
So who raised Jesus, stick with God so whether you believe 3-in-1 or 3-of 3 you're safe.

Blessings

Except the "3-in-1" belief is not allowed in this forum. It belongs in the world religions forum. So, it matters who raised Jesus from the dead because it has effects to the core of Christianity.

SeekerSA
Jun 9th 2007, 04:25 PM
Except the "3-in-1" belief is not allowed in this forum. It belongs in the world religions forum. So, it matters who raised Jesus from the dead because it has effects to the core of Christianity.

When I hit 50 posts and have access I will be happy to debate this with you.

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 05:39 PM
ok, keep posting then lol

Teke
Jun 9th 2007, 11:34 PM
Since we are speaking of Jesus, the God/man. Scripture makes a distinction for us, in that it was not of his mortal human body that He was raised, but by the power of God. Jesus has this power, but mortal man does not.

When explaining Jesus to another, we should not forget that He was both, fully human and fully God. Thus He was able to lay down His life, in the fullness of humanity being mortal, and He was able to pick it up again, by the power of God within Him.

There were two wills at work in Jesus. His human will and the Divine will of God. IOW two wills in One Person. The Person of Christ, being consubstantial with the Godhead.

Naphal
Jun 9th 2007, 11:53 PM
Since we are speaking of Jesus, the God/man. Scripture makes a distinction for us, in that it was not of his mortal human body that He was raised, but by the power of God. Jesus has this power, but mortal man does not.

When explaining Jesus to another, we should not forget that He was both, fully human and fully God. Thus He was able to lay down His life, in the fullness of humanity being mortal, and He was able to pick it up again, by the power of God within Him.

There were two wills at work in Jesus. His human will and the Divine will of God. IOW two wills in One Person. The Person of Christ, being consubstantial with the Godhead.

That's all abit pithy. Lets simply accept what scripture says on the issue; that Christ did not raise himself from the dead but was raised by his God and his Father.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Who raised Christ? The answer is "God the Father, who raised him from the dead."

Debra R
Jun 10th 2007, 03:37 AM
Very good.

I believe the Father, the Spirit, and the Son raised the Son from the dead.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Great scripture. Thank you. :)

Debra R
Jun 10th 2007, 03:46 AM
Perhaps we are wrestling with the concept of God (the Son) being dead. But He WAS dead, which was required for the atonement--and to pay the full price for our sins.

Being dead, He left the power to raise Himself up in the Father's hands. He had the same faith that Abraham did when asked to sacrifice Isaac.

He is of course fully God. But being also fully man, He trusted the Father to resurrect Him.

I have given no Scripture to support this. I am speculating.

That is interesting and maybe true. For we are trying to understand the concept of God with our little human brain and it is not fully possible for us to completely understand God. I am reminded of Isaiah 55:8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. 9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Thank you SIG :)

Debra R
Jun 10th 2007, 03:48 AM
I tend to agree.

Jesus as a man could not have done it by himself.

But, Jesus as the Almighty God...

That is another thing.

Throughout the Bible the Almighty is mentioned.
Genesis, Numbers, Ruth, Job, Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekial, Joel.

Only once in the NT, however:
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus is more than Man.
He is more than Spirit.
He is even more than...

He is God Almighty.
The Father...
The Spirit...
The Son...
Man...

All wrapped up into a single package.


He raised Himself from death, as He said He would... and He raised Himself both as, and by, God.

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen

More great scripture. Thank you Duane. :)


Which this also made me think of Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Debra R
Jun 10th 2007, 03:54 AM
Greetings in Christ

I liked the newbies response, "What difference does it make"

To my knowledge these is only one scripture where a three manifestations of God are present in one place at the same time.

It was at the baptism of Jesus by John

Jesus was in the water (God incarnate)
The Spirit descended on Him like a dove (God's Holy Spirit)
And a Voice came from heaven saying, "This is my Son..." (God the Father unseen)

This proves not or proves a Trinity. Simply a triple manifestation of God.

God is Omniscient so we need not boggle our brains how God gets this right.

So who raised Jesus, stick with God so whether you believe 3-in-1 or 3-of 3 you're safe.

Blessings

If that is how you feel that's fine. :)

Debra R
Jun 10th 2007, 04:00 AM
Since we are speaking of Jesus, the God/man. Scripture makes a distinction for us, in that it was not of his mortal human body that He was raised, but by the power of God. Jesus has this power, but mortal man does not.

When explaining Jesus to another, we should not forget that He was both, fully human and fully God. Thus He was able to lay down His life, in the fullness of humanity being mortal, and He was able to pick it up again, by the power of God within Him.

There were two wills at work in Jesus. His human will and the Divine will of God. IOW two wills in One Person. The Person of Christ, being consubstantial with the Godhead.

Thank you Teke.:)

This comes to mind.........John 10:38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

ravi4u2
Jun 10th 2007, 05:43 AM
It is very difficult to separate the Person of the Spirit from the Person of the Son.

calidog
Jun 10th 2007, 05:53 AM
It is very difficult to separate the Person of the Spirit from the Person of the Son.
Amen to that.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: