PDA

View Full Version : question about the end of the world...



deepjagga
Apr 9th 2007, 02:52 PM
Matthew 13:49 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/search/list/?search_book=Matthew&search_chapter_verse=13&varchapter_verse=13:49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Since the wicked will not be severed from among the just until the end of the world, how is it they will be severed during some sort of secret rapture as well, that many say takes place before the Great Tribulation which is before the end of the world?

shootingdead
Apr 9th 2007, 08:11 PM
that many say takes place before the Great Tribulationdo many (any?) people think there will be a pre-tribulation rapture now? i think the rapture may happen before/at the same time as the God's wrath (seven bowls in Revelation 16) like how Noah was in the ark when the flood came and took everyone else away.

Matthew 13:47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

this sounds like the same thing:

Revelation 14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." 19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

quiet dove
Apr 9th 2007, 09:26 PM
Since the wicked will not be severed from among the just until the end of the world, how is it they will be severed during some sort of secret rapture as well, that many say takes place before the Great Tribulation which is before the end of the world?



The rapture does not remove the wicked, the rapture removes all people who are saved, all believers. The wicked, or unsaved stay.

David Taylor
Apr 9th 2007, 09:59 PM
The rapture does not remove the wicked, the rapture removes all people who are saved, all believers. The wicked, or unsaved stay.

But Jesus told us something quite different.

Jesus told us that the believers remain with the unbelievers until the end of the world; and the unbelievers are gathered first, and cast into the fire.

(not the other way around, and not with a supposed 7-year gap)

This following teaching from Jesus helped me alot 10 years ago, to come out from under the Pretrib view I had been taught in my youth.



Jesus taught,
"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But HE SAID, NAY; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. THEN shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Matthew 13:24

quiet dove
Apr 9th 2007, 10:46 PM
David,


The verses you quoted describe what happens after the GT when I would agree, the wicked are taken and the righteous left. But then that leaves us with yet more disagreement

My understanding does not come from anything I was taught as a child and therefore, me, possibly having brain washed or something. I guess actually, the more I understand the labels of end time POVs I would have been amil or post trib as a young adult, then headed toward dominion theology at one time, then after being delivered from some major dangerous teachings I struck out again to a serious endevour to understand scripture in general and feel I was led along the way to what ended up me being labeled pre trib.:hug:

third hero
Apr 9th 2007, 11:05 PM
As much as I would like to rail on the pre-trib doctrine, I feel that this is not the place for me to interject, simply because I have had this conversation before, and had it done with no ill intent. So, for the sake of argument, I would like to say this:

QD, if you want to continue the discourse we were having about the differences between Pre-trib vs Post Trib, then I can restart that thread. However, I will not participate in disproving doctrines with others whose doctrines are just as faulty.

Just a thought.

quiet dove
Apr 10th 2007, 05:08 AM
third hero
I kept a check for a while when I was the last post and didnt see a response, in checking it just know it looks like you have had your hands full over there. I lost track I guess, wasnt intentional. I will check on it if you decide to post, it looks like it has moved on pretty well I wouldnt know where to start. I dont see us coming to any conclusions other than neither one of us is amil.:kiss:

RogerW
Apr 10th 2007, 03:29 PM
Quiet Dove,

I hope you won't mind my asking you about your view of the Kingdom. Do you believe the Kingdom of God/heaven came to earth, through the church when Christ went to the cross? Or, do you believe that the Kingdom of God/heaven eternally is in heaven only? In other words do you see the Kingdom symbolized through the universal church in time?

What is your understanding of the following passage?

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

RW

third hero
Apr 10th 2007, 10:32 PM
third hero
I kept a check for a while when I was the last post and didnt see a response, in checking it just know it looks like you have had your hands full over there. I lost track I guess, wasnt intentional. I will check on it if you decide to post, it looks like it has moved on pretty well I wouldnt know where to start. I dont see us coming to any conclusions other than neither one of us is amil.:kiss:

QD,
I understand, and I know that the topic was fully covered at that thread. What I am saying is that I believe that to take a stand against pre-trib doctrine with those whose doctrine I find is teetering on blasphemy is not something that I wish to do. You can thank cwb for that one, for he highlighted some things that caused me to do some research, and that research has brought me to this conclusion. Therefore, I am not going to atack your position, and because I find the opposing view represented here even worse than pre-trib doctrine, I may end up defending your cause. That's all I am saying. (For more info on this, check out the preterism thread, to see what I am talking about).

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 02:22 AM
The rapture does not remove the wicked, the rapture removes all people who are saved, all believers. The wicked, or unsaved stay.

Where in Scripture does it say that the rapture removes all saved people while the wicked people stay?

quiet dove
Apr 11th 2007, 04:07 AM
QD,
I understand, and I know that the topic was fully covered at that thread. What I am saying is that I believe that to take a stand against pre-trib doctrine with those whose doctrine I find is teetering on blasphemy is not something that I wish to do. You can thank cwb for that one, for he highlighted some things that caused me to do some research, and that research has brought me to this conclusion. Therefore, I am not going to atack your position, and because I find the opposing view represented here even worse than pre-trib doctrine, I may end up defending your cause. That's all I am saying. (For more info on this, check out the preterism thread, to see what I am talking about).

I'v read some in that thread but just havnt had the energy to jump in.

quiet dove
Apr 11th 2007, 04:40 AM
Where in Scripture does it say that the rapture removes all saved people while the wicked people stay?

That question takes us back to the Holy Spirit. I believe that the only one in Thess that can possibly be the restrainer is the indwelling Holy Spirit. For these reasons

1) With what Christ said about the Church, that the gates of Hell can not prevail against it. Satan can not take over the way the AC does with the presense of the Church on earth. Many sickos have tried and failed and they were evil enough to cause believers to wonder and even believe they had entered the GT.
2)When we believe, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and become a member of the Body of Christ, which means we are all joined together.
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
3) I disagree that Michael is the Restrainer, Daniel makes is clear that Michael is the angel who watches over Daniels people, Israel, and Christ is the Head of the Church.
4)It is the indwelling Spirit that is our strength, and through the Church the Gospel is spread by His strenght and authority. And again, we are bonded together as one by the Holy Spirit. For lack of a better way of putting it, the Church is a force to be reckoned with for Satan. Since he can not prevail against the Church, it must be removed in order for him to work his evil during the GT

Something happened at Pentecost that is beyond our ability to understand, or mine anyway. With the statement made by Jesus in the book of John

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I have tried to search the OT in response to the other views here and have found where people were filled with the Spirit in order to accomplish a particular task or service for God. But something different happened at Pentecost

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

It isnt a matter of being more or less loved or any of the petty arguments. I see it as having a responsibility that most of us fall very short of and the more I study the Holy Spirit the more I am convinced of that. We have had an exdrodinary Gift within us and He bonds us together. Not only us together but us in Christ. If there is to be an AC and if the whole world is to worship him, the Church must be removed in order for Hell to even make an attempt to prevail. Rev says that the AC will persecute the believers during that time and prevail against them. That cant happen if the Church with the indwelling Spirit is present. Not because evil person isnt capable of killing a bunch of Christians, even millions, but the GT will be more devestation that the earth has ever before experienced. It isnt just a matter of killing believers, it is a matter of great deception overtaking the hearts of men. God does not leave mankind without hope, there are the two witnesses with supernatural abilities, there are the 144, of the tribes of Israel, there is even an angel who proclaims Christ for all to hear. There will be those saved during the GT. The Holy Spirit wont disapear, the Church is not required for Him to be where ever He is to be. But the Church has been given a task or a responsibilitly that I think the majority do not comprehend beyond knowing we should be preaching the Gospel and striving to live according to Gods will. What I am trying to say is that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will not stop during that time it will just be different during that time. Just as His ministry was different during the time prior to Pentecost.

Well anyway, got long, sorry about that.

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 04:14 PM
That question takes us back to the Holy Spirit. I believe that the only one in Thess that can possibly be the restrainer is the indwelling Holy Spirit. For these reasons

1) With what Christ said about the Church, that the gates of Hell can not prevail against it. Satan can not take over the way the AC does with the presense of the Church on earth. Many sickos have tried and failed and they were evil enough to cause believers to wonder and even believe they had entered the GT.

Seems to me that Jesus prayed that we would be protected from evil, not taken off the earth. In case you think that prayer (John 17:15) was only for the disciples, you have to continue reading up to John 17:20.



2)When we believe, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and become a member of the Body of Christ, which means we are all joined together.
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

True, but how then do you explain those who are Christians during the tribulation? Are they not part of the body of Christ? Why would they have to suffer while pretrib saints would not?



3) I disagree that Michael is the Restrainer, Daniel makes is clear that Michael is the angel who watches over Daniels people, Israel, and Christ is the Head of the Church.

Who are you disagreeing with? I never said that he was. I believe it is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that will be taken out of the way. There is no need for the Church to be taken out of the way. The Church must stay to witness to the world until the return of Christ. Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that He would be with us always, even unto the end of the world. We have His Spirit in us. He said nothing about only being with us until 7 years before the end of the world. He said He would be with us unto the end of the world.



4)It is the indwelling Spirit that is our strength, and through the Church the Gospel is spread by His strenght and authority. And again, we are bonded together as one by the Holy Spirit. For lack of a better way of putting it, the Church is a force to be reckoned with for Satan. Since he can not prevail against the Church, it must be removed in order for him to work his evil during the GT

Show me the Scripture supporting your claim. I read in Revelation 13:7 that the beast makes war with the saints (the Church) and overcomes them. He does not overcome them spiritually, but physically. Satan has been working his evil against Christians since the gospel first was preached. All but one of the apostles was martyred. Does that mean Satan prevailed against them? Absolutely not. He could destroy their bodies but not their souls. We are promised protection of our souls, but not our bodies. The gates of hell cannot prevail against our souls.



Something happened at Pentecost that is beyond our ability to understand, or mine anyway. With the statement made by Jesus in the book of John

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I have tried to search the OT in response to the other views here and have found where people were filled with the Spirit in order to accomplish a particular task or service for God. But something different happened at Pentecost

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

It isnt a matter of being more or less loved or any of the petty arguments. I see it as having a responsibility that most of us fall very short of and the more I study the Holy Spirit the more I am convinced of that. We have had an exdrodinary Gift within us and He bonds us together. Not only us together but us in Christ. If there is to be an AC and if the whole world is to worship him, the Church must be removed in order for Hell to even make an attempt to prevail. Rev says that the AC will persecute the believers during that time and prevail against them. That cant happen if the Church with the indwelling Spirit is present. Not because evil person isnt capable of killing a bunch of Christians, even millions, but the GT will be more devestation that the earth has ever before experienced. It isnt just a matter of killing believers, it is a matter of great deception overtaking the hearts of men. God does not leave mankind without hope, there are the two witnesses with supernatural abilities, there are the 144, of the tribes of Israel, there is even an angel who proclaims Christ for all to hear. There will be those saved during the GT. The Holy Spirit wont disapear, the Church is not required for Him to be where ever He is to be. But the Church has been given a task or a responsibilitly that I think the majority do not comprehend beyond knowing we should be preaching the Gospel and striving to live according to Gods will. What I am trying to say is that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will not stop during that time it will just be different during that time. Just as His ministry was different during the time prior to Pentecost.

Well anyway, got long, sorry about that.

What Scripture supports your claim that the Holy Spirit's ministry will be different during the last 7 years of this world as we know it? When Jesus said He would be with us even unto the end of the world, He was of course speaking of being with us through His Spirit. He said nothing about the ministry of His Spirit ever changing. His ministry is always to evangelize the world and He uses the Church to do so and will continue to do so even unto the end of the world.

RogerW
Apr 11th 2007, 06:15 PM
QD: “Satan can not take over the way the AC does with the presense of the Church on earth.”

You view Satan and antichrist as two separate beings? The definition of antichrist is an opponent of Christ. This definition is the very embodiment of Satan. John tells us that antichrists are many, not one, and that this spirit being has always existed in the world. (1Jo 2:18; 2:22; 1Jo 4:3; 2Jo 1:7)

QD: “I disagree that Michael is the Restrainer…”

Neither do I believe that Michael is the restrainer. You seem to imply that the Holy Spirit indwelling believers is what restrains the iniquity of Satan, and the time will come when the Holy Spirit is removed in order for Satan/antichrist to work his evil during the great tribulation? I’ve heard this view before, and though it appears reasonable I think it is only because we fail to understand exactly what is being restrained.

I don’t find confirmation in the Bible or in church history that the iniquity of Satan has been, or will be restrained. For instance look at the letters to the churches in Revelation. If the iniquity of Satan has been restrained, how could we find him ruling in the first century church, and how is he being restrained when history and the Bible tell us that the Kingdom through the church is built/being built on the blood of the martyrs? Granted there is a general restraining of evil in our world, out of necessity. Without some restraint, (e.g. a shortening of the days evil is allowed to fulfill God’s purpose) of evil and evil beings then as Christ has said there would be no flesh left to save, for mankind would soon destroy God’s creation. (Mt. 24:22; Mk 13:20)

In order to understand what is being restrained I believe it is necessary to define the words “withholdeth and letteth” in 2Th 2, and to see how these have been used throughout Scripture.

The words withholdeth and letteth have been translated from the Greek word: 2272 katecho; from 2596 and 2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively):--have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.

Consider how this Greek word has been translated elsewhere in Scripture. Ro 1:18 we find unrighteous men [who hold] the truth in unrighteousness. Very much like we find in 2Th.

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, [who hold 2272] the truth in unrighteousness;

Here in Ro 7:6 we find that believers are delivered from the law, who [were held] in death. Again, the same word we find in 2Th.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein [we were held 2272]; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here in Mt 21:38 we find that wicked men kill the Lord, and attempt to [seize] on his inheritance. Much like we find in 2Th exalting themselves above God.

Mt 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us [seize 2272] on his inheritance.

Paul told the Thessalonians not to let anyone deceive them. He says there will come a falling away, and the man of sin will exalt himself above God. Then Paul says don’t you remember, I have already told you these things. I believe what is being withheld is the mystery of iniquity, or the knowledge that some are serving Satan, and it is being withheld by the man of sin, the son of perdition. The covenant body is being greatly deceived, and don’t realize it. Many believe the lie and are worshipping and serving the man of sin, thinking they are worshipping the Lord. This mystery of iniquity will abound as long as Satan letteth [2272]. Satan (man of sin, son of perdition) will be permitted to hide the iniquity working in the covenant body until he (man of sin, son of perdition) is taken out of the way. Satan will be given all power and signs and lying wonders, he will continue to deceive all who perish; because they would not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. The Lord will reveal the wickedness, and destroy the man of sin and the works of iniquity with the brightness of his Second Coming.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because of this iniquity which abounds through the man of sin, Paul warns us to keep that which was preached unless we believe in vain.

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if [ye keep 2272] in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are warned to hold fast that which is good, and to hold fast the confidence of hope firm to the end.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; [hold fast 2272] that which is good.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if [we hold fast 2272] the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

When we understand what is restrained, we also realize that iniquity is not restrained until a period of time called “the” great tribulation. Truth is great tribulation, through Satan/antichrist, the world, and our flesh was unleashed upon the church from the beginning. Though Satan is bound that he cannot prevent Christ from building His Kingdom through the church, he has never been bound that he cannot persecute, and bring great tribulation/affliction upon the body of Christ. Scripture shows us that Satan has been persecuting the church since she came into the world. (Rev 12)

It is wishful thinking to imagine the church is taken out of this world before the Kingdom of God is complete. The Gospel of salvation, given the church, through the power of the Holy Spirit will be bringing the elect into the Kingdom until the fullness of time. As John, David, and others have already said believers and unbelievers will continue to grow together in this world until Christ separates them at the end of time.

RW

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2007, 04:48 PM
RW
Satan (man of sin, son of perdition) will be permitted to hide the iniquity working in the covenant body until he (man of sin, son of perdition) is taken out of the way


I'm confused here, if I am understanding what you are saying correctly, this is my question: How does removing the one causeing the deception enable the deception to spread? How does no longer hiding the iniquity better spread the iniquity, if the hiding is preventing those who are deceived from seeing the truth, that they are deceieved? These verses say nothing about the deception being lifted and then people understanding they were deceived, they say the opposite, the deception gets stronger with the removing of the restrainer.

Your comments bring to mind the verses where Christ says " a house divided against itself will fall" it seems Satan is working against himself.



Truth is great tribulation, through Satan/antichrist, the world, and our flesh was unleashed upon the church from the beginning


I am sorry, but I dont understand your point here. Are you saying Truth is tribulation?

RogerW
Apr 12th 2007, 06:39 PM
I'm confused here, if I am understanding what you are saying correctly, this is my question: How does removing the one causeing the deception enable the deception to spread? How does no longer hiding the iniquity better spread the iniquity, if the hiding is preventing those who are deceived from seeing the truth, that they are deceieved? These verses say nothing about the deception being lifted and then people understanding they were deceived, they say the opposite, the deception gets stronger with the removing of the restrainer.

Your comments bring to mind the verses where Christ says " a house divided against itself will fall" it seems Satan is working against himself.

I am sorry, but I dont understand your point here. Are you saying Truth is tribulation?

The church in Thessalonica is troubled because apparently rumor is circulating that the day of Christ is at hand. That is the Second Coming is imminent (will happen without delay). So Paul tells them they should not be troubled because that day will not come until (1) there is a falling away, (2) the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition.

Paul tells them what the man of sin looks like, how he operates, and how he is actively operating in the church now, exalting himself, and showing himself as God. Paul is warning them because the man of sin is deceiving many through his subtle deceptions. This man of sin (Satan) is presenting himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2Co 11:14,15). All of this is happening in this first century church in Thessalonica. It is NOT something that happens only at or near the end of time. That is why Paul tells them “the mystery of iniquity doth already work.”

There are those in the church who follow after wickedness through the power of Satan. They are deceived and believe the lie because they have no love for the truth that they might be saved. Therefore God sends them strong delusion that they believe a lie because they have pleasure in unrighteousness. This deception and strong delusion grows greater and greater as the time for Christ to return grows closer, but the man of sin is not revealed until the end of time, and the Lord will consume him by the brightness of His coming. This happens at the last day.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Satan is doing everything in his power to keep the Kingdom of God from being built through the universal church. He has been, and continues to persecute the church, knowing he has only a short time. But Satan is a defeated foe, and when Christ returns He will reveal him, and all his wicked followers and cast them in the Lake of Fire.

No, I am not saying truth is tribulation! Sorry, I think it’s my poor punctuation. I should have said, “Truth is, great tribulation, through Satan/antichrist, the world, and our flesh was unleashed upon the church from the beginning.” There has never been a time in church history where she (the universal church in time) has been without great tribulation that comes from Satan, the world, and our own lusts of the flesh.

RW

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2007, 06:50 PM
john146
Seems to me that Jesus prayed that we would be protected from evil, not taken off the earth. In case you think that prayer (John 17:15) was only for the disciples, you have to continue reading up to John 17:20.



No I don’t see that prayer as only for the dicsipls v 20 makes it clear it is for all who in the future follow Christ. As the prayer continues it is clear, Christ is praying for the spread of the Gospel, those who will be preaching it, and those who will hear and except it. That the believer will stand secure in the truth and safe from the deception evil “one” and preach the truth .

… but how then do you explain those who are Christians during the tribulation? Are they not part of the body of Christ? Why would they have to suffer while pretrib saints would not?


You guys keep asking me that same question. And I keep asking - why are some today persecuted and others are not? Again, you ask me why as if to say if I don’t know “why” it somehow negates what the Bible is saying. I believe I have answered the “why” but the answer it is not something you accept as an answer.

In the letters to the churches, or to the believers, it says “let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches” basically to the believers, then in Rev 3:10 “because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the “world” to try them that dwell upon the earth. We might be dwelling on the earth, but in the context of this verse, it is clear that it refers to the worldly, not the Godly living on the earth, the worldly of the world. Those who chose darkness over Light. It is clear that some who previously chose darkness will change their mind and chose the Light



Who are you disagreeing with? I never said that he was.

Nothing personal, sorry. I was just trying to go ahead and cover that one, force of habit

I believe it is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that will be taken out of the way. There is no need for the Church to be taken out of the way. The Church must stay to witness to the world until the return of Christ. Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that He would be with us always, even unto the end of the world. We have His Spirit in us. He said nothing about only being with us until 7 years before the end of the world. He said He would be with us unto the end of the world.


And as believers, we are the ones entrusted to spread the Gospel and if we are on the earth, since you are correct that is says the Holy Spirit will be with us, the believers with the Holy Spirit in them must then be gone for the restrainer to be gone. If we are here, He is here. There is no way around that. In Revelation the ministry of the Holy Spirit will be more like His ministry in the OT where it is shown that it was possible for the Holy Spirit to leave a person, something that Christ told us would not happen to us, like you said, we are promised the Holy Spirit is to be with us. And there is no way around the fact that something changed at Penetecost. Something happened that could not happen prior to Christ resurrection and ascension.

Show me the Scripture supporting your claim. I read in Revelation 13:7 that the beast makes war with the saints (the Church) and overcomes them. He does not overcome them spiritually, but physically. Satan has been working his evil against Christians since the gospel first was preached. All but one of the apostles was martyred. Does that mean Satan prevailed against them? Absolutely not. He could destroy their bodies but not their souls. We are promised protection of our souls, but not our bodies. The gates of hell cannot prevail against our souls.


It says, that the “whole world” will worship the Beast, so in a way, yes, the AC prevails against the preaching of the Gospel by the saints, spritually. It does not necessarily mean they are killed for preaching, they are killed for “as many as would not worship the image of the Beast to be killed”. Christ says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church, but then in Rev it says, the saints, will be overcome by the AC, if both are taken in the physical or both or taken spiritually, they contradict, so in order for this “overcome” to not apply to the Church, the Church must be gone, along with the indwelling Spirit who is the strength and power of Christ with in us.


What Scripture supports your claim that the Holy Spirit's ministry will be different during the last 7 years of this world as we know it? When Jesus said He would be with us even unto the end of the world, He was of course speaking of being with us through His Spirit. He said nothing about the ministry of His Spirit ever changing. His ministry is always to evangelize the world and He uses the Church to do so and will continue to do so even unto the end of the world.

We are told in Rev 7 that angels do the sealing of the tribes of Israel “on the foreheads” with the seal of God. We are told that God sends the Holy Sprit to us. There is no mention of an angel UPS for bringing the Holy Spirit to us and the Holy Spirit is within us, not on our forehead. Then in Rev 9 it says “but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their forheads” are to be harmed. Rev 9 does not specify that this only includes those of the tribes of Israel, it says those without Gods seal, so one would think all those sealed with Gods seal, got that seal the same as described for the 144, of Israel, which means, something different is going on from what we know in this age, as believers, and God sending us the indwelling Spirit. Like I said, something different began at Pentecost with the ministry of the Holy Spirit and it will apparently end with the taking of the Bride to her Groom.
It does not mean, as I said, that one is more or less special, loved or anything like that. It means we have a Gift and a responsibiliyt that we don’t really fully understand or grasp. And someday, each and every one of us will be held accountable. It is a sobbering thought for me, very sobbering when I consider how miserably I fail.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His morvelous light. 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Ya cant get any more sobbering than that my brother!!

John146
Apr 13th 2007, 05:08 PM
No I don’t see that prayer as only for the dicsipls v 20 makes it clear it is for all who in the future follow Christ. As the prayer continues it is clear, Christ is praying for the spread of the Gospel, those who will be preaching it, and those who will hear and except it. That the believer will stand secure in the truth and safe from the deception evil “one” and preach the truth .

Okay, you're acknowledging that the prayer was for all who would hear the Gospel and accept it. That would include you and me. Jesus prayed that God would not take us out of the world, but protect us from evil in the world. A pre-trib Rapture would mean that God did not answer that prayer or that He for no real reason only answers that prayer up to the point where 7 years are left, which makes no sense to me.



You guys keep asking me that same question. And I keep asking - why are some today persecuted and others are not?

ALL who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). I'm certain that you have suffered persecution and so have I. So, what is persecution? Does it only refer to physical suffering? I don't believe it does. It can refer to spiritual persecution as well. Have you ever been made fun of for standing up for what you know is right? That is persecution. Have you ever been treated unfairly just because you are a Christian? That is persecution. Jesus said they will hate us because they hated Him first. If no one is hating you or ever harrassing you then there is a problem. That means no one knows you are a Christian.



Again, you ask me why as if to say if I don’t know “why” it somehow negates what the Bible is saying. I believe I have answered the “why” but the answer it is not something you accept as an answer.


No, I don't feel that the truth of the Bible depends on your understanding of it. :) I do feel that we should be able to defend our beliefs when challenged, though. The fact that you can't on a certain issue doesn't mean it's not true. If you don't know, you don't know. Nothing wrong with that. But I'd say it does mean you shouldn't try convincing anyone of your belief when you can't clearly back it up with Scripture. Not that you are trying to convince anyone. You're just sharing your opinions and I respect that. What I find is that no pretrib adherent has a good answer for that question and I believe that weakens the pretrib view. Pretrib has the wrath of God coming down on those who believe after the trib starts and that cannot possibly be true because believers never suffer the wrath of God. Those believers wouldn't deserve to experience the wrath of God any more than any other believers from throughout history.



In the letters to the churches, or to the believers, it says “let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches” basically to the believers, then in Rev 3:10 “because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the “world” to try them that dwell upon the earth. We might be dwelling on the earth, but in the context of this verse, it is clear that it refers to the worldly, not the Godly living on the earth, the worldly of the world. Those who chose darkness over Light. It is clear that some who previously chose darkness will change their mind and chose the Light

Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with a pre-trib Rapture. The same Greek phrase "tereo ek" meaning "to keep from" is only used in one other verse, John 17:15, and it has to do with protection from evil and not being taken out of the world.



And as believers, we are the ones entrusted to spread the Gospel and if we are on the earth, since you are correct that is says the Holy Spirit will be with us, the believers with the Holy Spirit in them must then be gone for the restrainer to be gone. If we are here, He is here. There is no way around that.

No one can be saved unless they are born again of the Spirit. How can you say that the Spirit wouldn't be here?



In Revelation the ministry of the Holy Spirit will be more like His ministry in the OT where it is shown that it was possible for the Holy Spirit to leave a person, something that Christ told us would not happen to us, like you said, we are promised the Holy Spirit is to be with us. And there is no way around the fact that something changed at Penetecost. Something happened that could not happen prior to Christ resurrection and ascension.

I'm sorry, but you won't find any Scripture anywhere to support what you're saying. There is no Scripture that suggests we are going to return to the inferior OT way of things at any time in the future. The OT way (Old Covenant) has vanished away (Hebrews 8:13). Forever.



It says, that the “whole world” will worship the Beast, so in a way, yes, the AC prevails against the preaching of the Gospel by the saints, spritually. It does not necessarily mean they are killed for preaching, they are killed for “as many as would not worship the image of the Beast to be killed”. Christ says that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church, but then in Rev it says, the saints, will be overcome by the AC, if both are taken in the physical or both or taken spiritually, they contradict, so in order for this “overcome” to not apply to the Church, the Church must be gone, along with the indwelling Spirit who is the strength and power of Christ with in us.

Look up all the Scriptures in the Word that speak about the Church. What you are saying is that none of those passages apply to the so-called trib saints. I find that to be unbelievable and completely unbiblical.



We are told in Rev 7 that angels do the sealing of the tribes of Israel “on the foreheads” with the seal of God. We are told that God sends the Holy Sprit to us. There is no mention of an angel UPS for bringing the Holy Spirit to us and the Holy Spirit is within us, not on our forehead. Then in Rev 9 it says “but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their forheads” are to be harmed. Rev 9 does not specify that this only includes those of the tribes of Israel, it says those without Gods seal, so one would think all those sealed with Gods seal, got that seal the same as described for the 144, of Israel, which means, something different is going on from what we know in this age, as believers, and God sending us the indwelling Spirit. Like I said, something different began at Pentecost with the ministry of the Holy Spirit and it will apparently end with the taking of the Bride to her Groom.

The seal of God is in the forehead, not on it.

quiet dove
Apr 13th 2007, 09:19 PM
Okay, you're acknowledging that the prayer was for all who would hear the Gospel and accept it. That would include you and me. Jesus prayed that God would not take us out of the world, but protect us from evil in the world. A pre-trib Rapture would mean that God did not answer that prayer or that He for no real reason only answers that prayer up to the point where 7 years are left, which makes no sense to me


How can it mean God didnt answer the prayer when you and I are both still stuck here in the world talking about it:D ?



ALL who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). I'm certain that you have suffered persecution and so have I. So, what is persecution? Does it only refer to physical suffering? I don't believe it does. It can refer to spiritual persecution as well. Have you ever been made fun of for standing up for what you know is right? That is persecution. Have you ever been treated unfairly just because you are a Christian? That is persecution. Jesus said they will hate us because they hated Him first. If no one is hating you or ever harrassing you then there is a problem. That means no one knows you are a Christian.



I would agree that there is also spiritual aspect of persecution not just physical. I agree with you here. I also agree that this is one of the reasons, (and not saying you think this or dont because I dont know) but that for the christian to be refined requires the GT, one reason, is a bunch of good christians have died long before and GT has started, plus, as you say, if you are living and trying to represent Christ and preach Christ, or gonna get some type of persecution. Might not mean your head gets chopped off, but it can still hurt. Someone loosing their job because they are a christian hurts because they are tyring to feed their family. So I agree with you here.



No, I don't feel that the truth of the Bible depends on your understanding of it. :) I do feel that we should be able to defend our beliefs when challenged, though. The fact that you can't on a certain issue doesn't mean it's not true. If you don't know, you don't know. Nothing wrong with that. But I'd say it does mean you shouldn't try convincing anyone of your belief when you can't clearly back it up with Scripture. Not that you are trying to convince anyone. You're just sharing your opinions and I respect that. What I find is that no pretrib adherent has a good answer for that question and I believe that weakens the pretrib view. Pretrib has the wrath of God coming down on those who believe after the trib starts and that cannot possibly be true because believers never suffer the wrath of God. Those believers wouldn't deserve to experience the wrath of God any more than any other believers from throughout history.


My point is, that, when I quote scripture that says something is or isnt going to happen, my understanding of "how" it is or isnt going to happen isnt required for me to back up myself with the scripture that says it is going to or not going to happen.

And your right, the Bible has believers not suffering the wrath of God but Revelations clearly says
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So there is the wrath of the Lamb, is the Church here or not while this wrath is coming on those who have rejected Christ? If the Church is here that means Christ is sending down wrath to those He died for in order that through Him they wouldnt suffer wrath.



Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with a pre-trib Rapture. The same Greek phrase "tereo ek" meaning "to keep from" is only used in one other verse, John 17:15, and it has to do with protection from evil and not being taken out of the world


Just because Jesus prayed what He did in John doesnt define the meaning of "keep from", and Rev 3:10 doesnt say keep from the evil one it says keep from the hour of trial. Now we know that life is full of trials that we are not kept from, but this particular hour of trial will involve the whole earth and we are promised that we will be kept from it.

It is two different context
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This is such a glorious promise of mercy upon His followers.

I dont find the comparison of "keep from" in John a strong arguement. It is two entirely different context, situations, and reasons for the kept from. Kept from what, John is from the evil one who is lurking about in the world, and Revelation is the hour of trial that God will be putting on the earth.
It comes from insisting that scripture must interpret scripture instead of relying on and depending on the Holy Spirit to guide and teach. The same Spirit that inspired the writers of scripture. That was my point in the other thread. What keep from in the Bible interprets the keep from in John? And so on back to the first keep from in scripture?

5083 - tereo tay-reh'-o from teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from
1537. ek ek or ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote

I am sorry, but I disagree that your reason is valid to reject Rev 3:10 as the possiblitly of the Church being kept from the hour of trial.


I'm sorry, but you won't find any Scripture anywhere to support what you're saying. There is no Scripture that suggests we are going to return to the inferior OT way of things at any time in the future. The OT way (Old Covenant) has vanished away (Hebrews 8:13). Forever.

I didnt say there was a return to the old covenant, said nothing about anything like that. Your not hearing me. All are saved through Christ, the New Covenant. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is not the covenant. He is a gift to the believers in the New Covenant. People in the OT are saved through Christ by their faith, believeing God's promise. Apparently the difference in the workings of the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost didnt prevent them from being just as saved through Christ as we are. Neither will any change in the workings of His ministry in the GT take salvation back to the old covenant. For one thing the old coveanant didnt save.


Look up all the Scriptures in the Word that speak about the Church. What you are saying is that none of those passages apply to the so-called trib saints. I find that to be unbelievable and completely unbiblical.

I quoted Peter to you. You look up Holy Spirit or Sprit see what you find. Has nothing to do with securing salvation. (Well thats not entirely true, scripture says He will convict the world of sin) Has to do with the incredibleness, beyond comprehsion of the gift of the indwelling Spirit. If you dont have time to look them all up I will email them to you PM me.



The seal of God is in the forehead, not on it.


In it on it, Still isnt the same as described about the indwelling of the Spirit within the every believer and member of the Church. And know where is the Holy Spirit said to be delivered by angels, He is sent from God.

Love ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! john
QD, but you got me worked up:) :) :) :)

quiet dove
Apr 13th 2007, 09:42 PM
There are those in the church who follow after wickedness through the power of Satan. They are deceived and believe the lie because they have no love for the truth that they might be saved. Therefore God sends them strong delusion that they believe a lie because they have pleasure in unrighteousness. This deception and strong delusion grows greater and greater as the time for Christ to return grows closer, but the man of sin is not revealed until the end of time, and the Lord will consume him by the brightness of His coming. This happens at the last day


Members of the Church are not following after wickedness or they would not be members of the Church, the Body of Christ. Now buildings full of people and that building being called a church, there is plenty of deception. But the church bulding is not the Church-Body of Christ.


Satan is doing everything in his power to keep the Kingdom of God from being built through the universal church. He has been, and continues to persecute the church, knowing he has only a short time. But Satan is a defeated foe, and when Christ returns He will reveal him, and all his wicked followers and cast them in the Lake of Fire.


This statement is very true, but I dont understand how you apply it to the restrainer being Satan. The veil of deception is removed from the true Believer, so therefore, (if I am understanding your logic) the restrainment of deception over the believer has already been removed, they are no longer deceieved by the lie of Satan. A person believes, the deception of Satan is revealed and they are free from Satans bondage.

Teke
Apr 14th 2007, 02:03 PM
Matthew 13:49 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/search/list/?search_book=Matthew&search_chapter_verse=13&varchapter_verse=13:49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Since the wicked will not be severed from among the just until the end of the world, how is it they will be severed during some sort of secret rapture as well, that many say takes place before the Great Tribulation which is before the end of the world?



The "end of the world" there means an age. It is when man's rule ends and Christ's begins.

Mat 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

John146
Apr 14th 2007, 05:23 PM
How can it mean God didnt answer the prayer when you and I are both still stuck here in the world talking about it:D ?

If anyone was raptured before a 7-year tribulation period then apparently the prayer would not apply to those who were raptured. That is my point.



My point is, that, when I quote scripture that says something is or isnt going to happen, my understanding of "how" it is or isnt going to happen isnt required for me to back up myself with the scripture that says it is going to or not going to happen.

And your right, the Bible has believers not suffering the wrath of God but Revelations clearly says
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So there is the wrath of the Lamb, is the Church here or not while this wrath is coming on those who have rejected Christ? If the Church is here that means Christ is sending down wrath to those He died for in order that through Him they wouldnt suffer wrath.

Huh? You lost me. The wrath of God comes down on unbelievers and not believers. I think that's pretty simple to understand. How do you figure that verse is saying that wrath is coming down on believers?



Just because Jesus prayed what He did in John doesnt define the meaning of "keep from", and Rev 3:10 doesnt say keep from the evil one it says keep from the hour of trial.

Yes, so when we look at how it is used in the other verse where that same Greek phrase is used, then we see it has to do with being protected from evil and not being taken out of the world. So, in Revelation 3:10 it has to do being protected from the hour of trial and has nothing to do with being taken out of the world. Also, you might notice that Revelation 3:10 was for the church of Philadelphia. So, if it actually applied to a pretrib Rapture then I guess only those in the church of Philadelphia would be raptured. The problem is, there is no church of Philadelphia anymore.




Now we know that life is full of trials that we are not kept from, but this particular hour of trial will involve the whole earth and we are promised that we will be kept from it.

We are promised protection from being deceived, but not protection from being persecuted. The beast makes war with the saints and overcomes them (kills them), but he cannot kill our souls.



I dont find the comparison of "keep from" in John a strong arguement.

Why not? That verse is the only other one that uses that Greek phrase (tereo ek) and it clearly uses it in the context of protection from evil while still in the world. And Christians are always protected. Some are killed, but it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the protection of our souls.



It is two entirely different context, situations, and reasons for the kept from. Kept from what, John is from the evil one who is lurking about in the world, and Revelation is the hour of trial that God will be putting on the earth.

I know that, but neither one speaks of being taken out of the world. The phrase used in each verse has nothing to do with being taken out of the world, but being protected while in the world.




I didnt say there was a return to the old covenant, said nothing about anything like that. Your not hearing me. All are saved through Christ, the New Covenant. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is not the covenant. He is a gift to the believers in the New Covenant. People in the OT are saved through Christ by their faith, believeing God's promise. Apparently the difference in the workings of the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost didnt prevent them from being just as saved through Christ as we are. Neither will any change in the workings of His ministry in the GT take salvation back to the old covenant. For one thing the old coveanant didnt save.

You did say that things will return to the way they were in Old Testament times. And you're not giving any good reason for that from Scripture.



I quoted Peter to you. You look up Holy Spirit or Sprit see what you find. Has nothing to do with securing salvation. (Well thats not entirely true, scripture says He will convict the world of sin) Has to do with the incredibleness, beyond comprehsion of the gift of the indwelling Spirit. If you dont have time to look them all up I will email them to you PM me.

You're steering things away from the points that I was making. Why? Tell me, do you believe the Scriptures that speak of the Church apply to "trib saints" or not? That's a straightforward question so please give a straightforward answer. Thanks.

Eric

Toolapc
Apr 14th 2007, 05:39 PM
Matthew 13:49 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/search/list/?search_book=Matthew&search_chapter_verse=13&varchapter_verse=13:49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Since the wicked will not be severed from among the just until the end of the world, how is it they will be severed during some sort of secret rapture as well, that many say takes place before the Great Tribulation which is before the end of the world?



This just means that who ever is mark with 666 aka the wicked Gods wrath is coming and the died rise first. so the wicked people will be harmed by the angels and there plagues and the died rise first so the wicked or who ever is mark with 666 these people die during tribulation.

The faithful saints will receive the seal of God witch pertects the saints from these plagues.

The rapture happens at the end of tribulation or during the last trumpet or 7th angel blowing his trump.

reread the pre rapture scriptures. you will see that who ever started this pre rapture has munpulated the scripture to pass on there false view that has no truth. because of this false view alot of people might fall awayfrom the Lord when tribulation comes.

Reread the pre rapture scriptures these parts in the bible clearly tell us that the rapture does not happen untill tribulation is over or when the last trumpet sounds so please reread the pre rapture scipture there is no pre rapture if there is please show me using the bible and please please do not munpulate the scripture to pass on a false view that has no truth.:ppoh ya quiet dove and john please get your own room jk jk its funny how you to go at it back and forth and wow your posts are just so long not even gonna attemp to read it so please make them shorter i just can focus on poast that are so long aaaahhhhhhh

quiet dove
Apr 14th 2007, 07:02 PM
Huh? You lost me.
I knew I had a gift and now I know what it is :D


You're steering things away from the points that I was making. Why? Tell me, do you believe the Scriptures that speak of the Church apply to "trib saints" or not? That's a straightforward question so please give a straightforward answer. Thanks.


I wasn’t trying to steer away, not intentionally anyway. I don’t think there is another way of salvation at any time during the history of mankind OT, NT or GT, salvation is through Christ. That is a different matter than what happens after salvation, just like all the members of the Body can have different callings or “jobs” for lack of knowing how to put it. We are not all exactly used in the same way, but all are used to the glory of Christ. GT saints will be saved based on their faith in Christ, but God may, during that time be dealing with them differently than He has delt with others. That doesn’t mean more or less, better or worse, it just means different. Kinda like, if I have 8 kids, they are all my children and I love them all equally, but I still may deal with them differently. (I don’t have 8 kids by the way)



The wrath of God comes down on unbelievers and not believers. I think that's pretty simple to understand. How do you figure that verse is saying that wrath is coming down on believers?

That is just the point, if the Church is here then they would suffer God’s wrath or the reprocussions of that wrath upon the world. So the Church must be gone. The passages from Rev are written to the Church, the faithful. Those who except the Gospel prior to this hour of trial begining.


If anyone was raptured before a 7-year tribulation period then apparently the prayer would not apply to those who were raptured. That is my point.

John is a prayer of protection from the kingdom of darkness that is upon the earth which we dwell upon surrounded by evil. Revelation is a promise to keep us from the time God deals with the Christ rejecting world. The keep from is a keeping from two different things. The prayer in John would still apply to all who believe during the GT, has Christ would want them to be spirtually protected from the evil one also.


You did say that things will return to the way they were in Old Testament times. And you're not giving any good reason for that from Scripture.


It was an attempt to explain my meaning and that the ministry of the Holy Sprit is working in one way with the Church and will possibly work in other ways after the Rapture, but not that He will be gone. And not that there is another way of salvation during the OT or the GT. I am just having trouble knowing how to word myself. My trying is based on Thess and the Restrainer, which is how I got myself into this in the first place.:spin:

John146
Apr 14th 2007, 07:41 PM
I wasn’t trying to steer away, not intentionally anyway. I don’t think there is another way of salvation at any time during the history of mankind OT, NT or GT, salvation is through Christ. That is a different matter than what happens after salvation, just like all the members of the Body can have different callings or “jobs” for lack of knowing how to put it. We are not all exactly used in the same way, but all are used to the glory of Christ. GT saints will be saved based on their faith in Christ, but God may, during that time be dealing with them differently than He has delt with others. That doesn’t mean more or less, better or worse, it just means different. Kinda like, if I have 8 kids, they are all my children and I love them all equally, but I still may deal with them differently. (I don’t have 8 kids by the way)

Can you show me any Scriptures that says that at any time in the future as of the first coming of Christ, God would deal with anyone differently than He has since then?





That is just the point, if the Church is here then they would suffer God’s wrath or the reprocussions of that wrath upon the world. So the Church must be gone. The passages from Rev are written to the Church, the faithful. Those who except the Gospel prior to this hour of trial begining.

How do you figure that the Church would suffer the wrath of God? And why would "trib saints" not be considered the Church?



John is a prayer of protection from the kingdom of darkness that is upon the earth which we dwell upon surrounded by evil. Revelation is a promise to keep us from the time God deals with the Christ rejecting world. The keep from is a keeping from two different things. The prayer in John would still apply to all who believe during the GT, has Christ would want them to be spirtually protected from the evil one also.

So, you believe "trib saints" would not be protected from the wrath of God? Why not? Believers will have been protected by God's wrath for thousands of years but then not during the final 7 years? That makes no sense.



It was an attempt to explain my meaning and that the ministry of the Holy Sprit is working in one way with the Church and will possibly work in other ways after the Rapture, but not that He will be gone. And not that there is another way of salvation during the OT or the GT. I am just having trouble knowing how to word myself. My trying is based on Thess and the Restrainer, which is how I got myself into this in the first place.:spin:



Your interpretation of 2 Thess 2 is the only Scriptural support that you point to for your idea that the Holy Sprit will deal with people differently after the supposed pretrib Rapture? A passage that Christians cannot seem to agree on and that has many different interpretations is all you have on which to base your belief that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will work a different way in the future? Surely, there must be at least one other verse that is a bit more clear that you can point to that can support your view that the way the Holy Spirit works will change at some point in the future, right? Do you know of any?

quiet dove
Apr 14th 2007, 10:12 PM
john146
So, you believe "trib saints" would not be protected from the wrath of God? Why not? Believers will have been protected by God's wrath for thousands of years but then not during the final 7 years? That makes no sense.

How do you figure that the Church would suffer the wrath of God? And why would "trib saints" not be considered the Church?


Not suffer the wrath, for example, when God send the sores, like in Rev 16, it says they repented not, that would be those who are rejecting Christ, but I dont know that the ones who accept Christ will have stuff like that, but on the other hand,, famine would be spread over the earth, of course that doesnt mean God wont feed His own.



Can you show me any Scriptures that says that at any time in the future as of the first coming of Christ, God would deal with anyone differently than He has since then?



What about the sealing by the angels? That is just one but it is a significant difference than believers now currently have the Spirit sent directly from God. If the angels were not mentioned it wouldnt be clearly different.



Your interpretation of 2 Thess 2 is the only Scriptural support that you point to for your idea that the Holy Sprit will deal with people differently after the supposed pretrib Rapture? A passage that Christians cannot seem to agree on and that has many different interpretations is all you have on which to base your belief that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will work a different way in the future? Surely, there must be at least one other verse that is a bit more clear that you can point to that can support your view that the way the Holy Spirit works will change at some point in the future, right? Do you know of any?


I was trying to show why I believe the Restrainer to be the Holy Spirit within the Church. And even if there are any differences, that doesnt mean there is less for anyone. Rev 20 says "they reigned with Christ" so in the end all will be together and with God through out eternity.
Christ said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church (Matt 16:18). Then Rev says "and he prevailed against them" (Rev 13:7; Dan 7:21). How do you recocile those things? Both groups are saved through Christ, both groups end up in heaven with glorified bodies, what does it mean in Rev 13:7,and that the whole world worships the Beast, except the believers. Is this the world led by Satan prevailing agianst the Gospel? And even with all the evil in the world today, Satan is not prevailing against the Gospel, not by a long shot.

I know that isnt the whole answer you are wanting but I will just have to read and see where that takes me. I am not trying to put you off or anything.

RogerW
Apr 14th 2007, 10:14 PM
QD

Members of the Church are not following after wickedness or they would not be members of the Church, the Body of Christ. Now buildings full of people and that building being called a church, there is plenty of deception. But the church bulding is not the Church-Body of Christ.


Quote:
Satan is doing everything in his power to keep the Kingdom of God from being built through the universal church. He has been, and continues to persecute the church, knowing he has only a short time. But Satan is a defeated foe, and when Christ returns He will reveal him, and all his wicked followers and cast them in the Lake of Fire.

This statement is very true, but I dont understand how you apply it to the restrainer being Satan. The veil of deception is removed from the true Believer, so therefore, (if I am understanding your logic) the restrainment of deception over the believer has already been removed, they are no longer deceieved by the lie of Satan. A person believes, the deception of Satan is revealed and they are free from Satans bondage.

If my statement is true why would you say that members of the church are not following after wickedness or they would not be members of the church, the body of Christ?

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that not every member in the church, professing to be in Christ, are indeed in Christ. The corporate, or universal church in time is made up of people professing faith, and salvation. Within this body of professing believers we find “The Church” or the eternal Kingdom of God which no unbeliever, false professor can enter into. But, while these two exist together in this world, in time, they both grow together, and we have no way of knowing who within the corporate, universal church in time is among the elect of God, and who is there pretending, or even believing they belong there, but in fact do not.

This is what Paul is warning us of. Scripture tells us that Satan and his antichrists are among the people of God, pretending to have true, saving faith. It is not the elect who are deceived by Satan. It is all those who are in the church, among believers, who think they are following Christ, but don’t realize they are in fact following the master deceiver. Satan may be able to deceive the elect of God for a time, but Christ promises us that he will not be able to keep the elect from coming into the Kingdom. Just because the elect cannot ultimately be kept from the Kingdom through Satan’s deception, they can still be troubled greatly by his cunning and crafty deception. This is what Paul is addressing in the letter to the Thessalonians.

RW

John146
Apr 15th 2007, 12:46 PM
I was trying to show why I believe the Restrainer to be the Holy Spirit within the Church. And even if there are any differences, that doesnt mean there is less for anyone. Rev 20 says "they reigned with Christ" so in the end all will be together and with God through out eternity.

We reign with Christ now along with the dead in Christ in heaven. Read Ephesians 2:1-6 and Revelation 1:5-6.



Christ said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church (Matt 16:18). Then Rev says "and he prevailed against them" (Rev 13:7; Dan 7:21). How do you recocile those things?

Very easily. History shows all but one of the original apostles were martyred. Did the gates of hell prevail against them? Absolutely not. The gates of hell not prevailing against the Church has to do with the gates of hell not prevailing against our souls.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Matthew 10:28

quiet dove
Apr 15th 2007, 06:30 PM
RogerW
If my statement is true why would you say that members of the church are not following after wickedness or they would not be members of the church, the body of Christ?



You dont seem to be distinguishing between the church building and the groups that meet in them from the Body of Christ also called the Church. Or maybe not realizing that I am distinguishing between the two uses of the word "church". I am talking about two different things. One describes a group of which the individuals of the group can claim whatever they want. But those who truly are saved and a member of the Body of Christ - the Church are no longer in the bondage of darkness ruled by Satan.

The rest that are not truly saved are just wolves in sheeps clothing, claiming to be what they are not. You are not separating the difference between the building and group known as a church group from the use of my word Church as a proper name also meaning the Body of Christ.

Saved7
Apr 15th 2007, 06:34 PM
do many (any?) people think there will be a pre-tribulation rapture now? i think the rapture may happen before/at the same time as the God's wrath (seven bowls in Revelation 16) like how Noah was in the ark when the flood came and took everyone else away.

.


Yes, sad to say, that many DO still beleive pre-trib, and refuse to even look into the other side of things.

quiet dove
Apr 15th 2007, 07:04 PM
Yes, sad to say, that many DO still beleive pre-trib, and refuse to even look into the other side of things.

Ok Saved7, I am now officially chasing you around the board:bounce: just kidding. But at least you know there is one pre tribber who has been willing to look at the other side of things:hug:

quiet dove
Apr 15th 2007, 07:20 PM
john146
We reign with Christ now along with the dead in Christ in heaven. Read Ephesians 2:1-6 and Revelation 1:5-6.




I understand Ephesians to be saying we are dead to sin and alive in Christ, not that we are ruling anything or anyone. Personally I cant even rule over my own selfish flesh much less anyone else.

Ephesians3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power.
Are we not supposed to follow Christ example in this life?
Philippians 2
7 but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant…and became obedient to death.

1 Peter 2:16..live as servants of God.

1 Corinthians 3:5
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

Rev says we are kings and priest to His father, we are servants in this life, not rulers. We are to pray and interceed for our fellow believers and for those in the world. If we are to love our enemies, would not that include praying for their deliverance to salvation? I knwo that is easier said than doen.

Christ came a lowly servant with His first advent, and are we not also told to follow His example while in this life.?

John146
Apr 16th 2007, 06:11 AM
I understand Ephesians to be saying we are dead to sin and alive in Christ, not that we are ruling anything or anyone. Personally I cant even rule over my own selfish flesh much less anyone else.

Ephesians3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power.
Are we not supposed to follow Christ example in this life?
Philippians 2
7 but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant…and became obedient to death.

1 Peter 2:16..live as servants of God.

1 Corinthians 3:5
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

Rev says we are kings and priest to His father, we are servants in this life, not rulers.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reigning with Christ has to do with us serving Him? Why does it have to mean that we rule something? It says we are kings and priests. It clearly says we are kings now. So, we are reigning with Christ. I don't see why that has to mean that we have to rule something. We are each members of the body with different gifts and roles to play within the body. That is how we reign with Him.



We are to pray and interceed for our fellow believers and for those in the world. If we are to love our enemies, would not that include praying for their deliverance to salvation? I knwo that is easier said than doen.

Christ came a lowly servant with His first advent, and are we not also told to follow His example while in this life.?

Yes, exactly. It can't be denied that He is spiritually reigning now from His throne in heaven as well as in the hearts of believers. He reigns as a servant. We reign with Him as servants. He reigns with love and compassion. The enemy cannot oppose love and compassion. We shouldn't think of Jesus reigning as an earthly king reigns because that isn't how our God and Savior operates.

RogerW
Apr 16th 2007, 05:25 PM
You dont seem to be distinguishing between the church building and the groups that meet in them from the Body of Christ also called the Church. Or maybe not realizing that I am distinguishing between the two uses of the word "church". I am talking about two different things. One describes a group of which the individuals of the group can claim whatever they want. But those who truly are saved and a member of the Body of Christ - the Church are no longer in the bondage of darkness ruled by Satan.

The rest that are not truly saved are just wolves in sheeps clothing, claiming to be what they are not. You are not separating the difference between the building and group known as a church group from the use of my word Church as a proper name also meaning the Body of Christ.

Can you show me where Christ makes this distinction that you are making in Scripture?

It is true that there will be a separation from the "true" body of Christ from those who do not belong in the heavenly kingdom. It is equally true that Christ is the One who makes this distinction, and even He makes it only at the end of time. How could you or I possibly separate outward professors who are in truth wolves in sheeps clothing, from the elect of God? Christ does not make this distinction within the universal church in time, and so He warns us that there are among the elect those who are eternally damned. We are warned to be on guard from them. The elect within the universal church in time are attacked from without, but attacked even greater from within.

While I understand well, and accept the fact that many who worship alongside me within the external corporate church in time, still I am called, no commanded to keep myself pure, and undefiled by them. How could I do this if I separate myself from them? How can I know certainly that when attempting to make this separation, you say I should be making, that I am not uprooting the wheat while trying to get rid of the tares? Mt. 13:29,30

No, it's better to leave the separating to the Lord, Who is the only one to discern the heart. I will be content to know there are false professors among the body of Christ externally, and in knowing I will work to keep myself from being deceived by the cunning and crafty deception they come with through the power of Satan.

RW

quiet dove
Apr 19th 2007, 05:42 PM
I am not doing any separating in a pretense to know what is in every mans heart. I am saying that those that are the true believers, sheeps in sheeps clothing, they are the ones not following after wickedness in their hearts. The wolves in sheeps clothing are the ones following the wickedness and not really saved so not really in the true Body of Christ. I am not separating anyone. There are true believers in the church buildings and false believers in the church building. I am not saying who is who just that they both exsist. Those who are the false believers will follow the lies, those who are true believers will follow Jesus. True believers, those truly belonging to Christ, those indwelt with the Holy Spirit, those true believers make up the Body of Christ, the entity of the living Church. Those truly in Christ have the veil of bondag and deception lifted from their hearts by Christ. I am not judging anyone individually as I dont even personally know them in order to even attempt at separating the two groups.

deepjagga
Apr 20th 2007, 04:39 PM
I have received some very interesting information that points directly to the fact that there is a rapture of the church. Not only that, but it is a secret rapture of the church. This secret rapture of the church is explained throughout the scriptures in the Bible.

I don't have time right now to share it. For one, I"m still going over it and analyzing all of it. It is amazing how this takes place. Hopefully I will have time to post it next week.

deepjagga
Apr 24th 2007, 04:57 PM
I have received some very interesting information that points directly to the fact that there is a rapture of the church. Not only that, but it is a secret rapture of the church. This secret rapture of the church is explained throughout the scriptures in the Bible.

I don't have time right now to share it. For one, I"m still going over it and analyzing all of it. It is amazing how this takes place. Hopefully I will have time to post it next week.
I will create another thread for this information.