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Revel
Apr 9th 2007, 05:14 PM
We just celebrated the Resurrection of our Lord…

How important are the words of Christ… spoken in his resurrected body… on the day of his ascension?

On the day our Lord ascended into Heaven, he said to his disciples: “[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues” (Mark 16:17).

What did our Lord reveal to us—by revelation—about his prophecy of “tongues”?

To us… the will of Heaven has been given. By revelation, the Son of God revealed it: “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:5).

If this is the will of Heaven:

“I would like every one of you to speak in tongues.”

Then what is the will of Satan?

“I would like every one of you not to speak in tongues.”

Why would Satan not want us to manifest this sign of “tongues”?

Why would our Lord want us to manifest this sign of “tongues”?

…What separates Jesus Christ from every other “prophet”?

He rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. Although some people render this divine revelation to be a “story,” those who embrace the Son of God know it to be true.

Heaven has given Earth a supernatural sign that Jesus is Earth’s Messiah. Through the indwelling Spirit of Christ, a son of God is empowered to bring forth this divine sign: speaking in tongues. Both angelic and human, the new languages are known by God but not by the one speaking. Therein, speaking in divinely inspired tongues is a supernatural manifestation. It is the “witness” of Christ’s Resurrection.

It all began almost 2000 years ago on Pentecost—and Christ’s prophecy continues to be fulfilled…

Yet, what have we been told to believe about Christ’s prophecy of “tongues”?

I would like to ask that we examine what some of our religious ancestors told us to believe about “tongues,” and contrast it with what the Scriptures have to say about this divine sign.

This is about what the Scriptures have to say regarding this subject of “tongues”—not the theatrics man’s imagination has added to the sign.

This thread will continue forward by focusing on the Book of Acts, 1 Corinthians, 2 Peter, Joel, Isaiah, and the Gospels.

Who among us would like to carry out the will of Heaven and witness Christ’s prophecy of “tongues” personally fulfilled?

This thread is written with you in mind.

What did our Lord reveal?

“[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues.”

Not one verse contradicts Christ’s prophecy…

How can Christ’s revelation to his apostles contradict Christ’s own prophecy on the day of his ascension?

It’s impossible…

God bless.

revel

Lighthope
Apr 9th 2007, 07:10 PM
Different gifts apply to different people. Not everyone will speak in tongues if I recall my scripture correctly. 1 Cor 12:10 says "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues". This is not to imply that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't for everyone. Certainly as we go through Acts we don't see any exception to this.

What concerns me more is what seems to be almost a complete lack of faith in the Christian body. Oh, we say we have faith in things that are not manifest. We believe in salvation, grace, all the cool and really important things of God. But when it comes to tangible things, like healing, moving of mountains, tongues, our faith falters.

Anyway, I won't hijack the thread. Let me go back to the original point of not being "stuck" on tongues. It doesn't appear to be a gift for everyone.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - "I've never heard the words 'only' and 'candy' in the same sentence before." - Eric Cartman (South Park: A Ladder to Heaven)

Souled Out
Apr 9th 2007, 07:32 PM
All the gifts of the Spirit are given by the Father, but why so much focus on the least of the gifts, when there is a more excellent way?

VerticalReality
Apr 9th 2007, 07:46 PM
but why so much focus on the least of the gifts, when there is a more excellent way?

I look at like this . . .

If you have a handful of pearls, are you going to throw them away and disregard them just because a diamond comes along? Sure, there is a more excellent way. However, that doesn't mean you disregard and throw away the others. We still need them and we still need to teach them.

Souled Out
Apr 9th 2007, 10:08 PM
I look at like this . . .

If you have a handful of pearls, are you going to throw them away and disregard them just because a diamond comes along? Sure, there is a more excellent way. However, that doesn't mean you disregard and throw away the others. We still need them and we still need to teach them.

Nah, I don't believe any should be discarded; the gifts are for a purpose and a time.

They are temporary and will cease, unlike the perfect, agape love, that abides forever.

It’s just backward that the least important gift is spoken about, argued over and is exalted above all others and the most important of all. I guess 2000 years later we can clearly see why Paul slapped the Corinthians upside their carnal...oops, spiritual heads over this same issue, over this same gift. :lol:

The more things change the more they stay the same.

God gives the gifts. Use the gifts He gives to you. Just don’t cause another brother or sister to stumble by trying to impose your gift on them if that is not the gift they were given.

Can we not lose sight of the purpose of all the gifts of the Spirit? They are to enable believers to do what God has called each to do. We all have a purpose and a call and each one is given the appropriate gift(s) to enable him/her to answer that call.

Maybe I should start eight similar threads, hyping each of the other gifts: wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, and interpretation of tongues.

Let’s give thanks for all the gifts, but let’s follow Paul’s admonition and only "covet earnestly the best gifts."

VR, this is not necessarily to you, but just in general. :)

Tru_Knyte
Apr 9th 2007, 10:35 PM
Nah, I don't believe any should be discarded; the gifts are for a purpose and a time.

They are temporary and will cease, unlike the perfect, agape love, that abides forever.

It’s just backward that the least important gift is spoken about, argued over and is exalted above all others and the most important of all. I guess 2000 years later we can clearly see why Paul slapped the Corinthians upside their carnal...oops, spiritual heads over this same issue, over this same gift. :lol:

The more things change the more they stay the same.

God gives the gifts. Use the gifts He gives to you. Just don’t cause another brother or sister to stumble by trying to impose your gift on them if that is not the gift they were given.

Can we not lose sight of the purpose of all the gifts of the Spirit? They are to enable believers to do what God has called each to do. We all have a purpose and a call and each one is given the appropriate gift(s) to enable him/her to answer that call.

Maybe I should start eight similar threads, hyping each of the other gifts: wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, and interpretation of tongues.

Let’s give thanks for all the gifts, but let’s follow Paul’s admonition and only "covet earnestly the best gifts."

VR, this is not necessarily to you, but just in general. :)


Wow that sucks. The only one there that I could say I have is faith. :(

Souled Out
Apr 9th 2007, 11:31 PM
Wow that sucks. The only one there that I could say I have is faith. :(

Tru Knyte God doesn't give things that suck! :lol:

With your faith, my widsom, the OP's tongues and another six folk with the other gifts, shoot, we'd be unstoppable. :lol: We all need each other.

With faith like yours, now I know who I can call when mine gets weak. :lol:

Tru_Knyte
Apr 9th 2007, 11:53 PM
Tru Knyte God doesn't give things that suck! :lol:

With your faith, my widsom, the OP's tongues and another six folk with the other gifts, shoot, we'd be unstoppable. :lol: We all need each other.

With faith like yours, now I know who I can call when mine gets weak. :lol:

lol, true. :)

Like the Fantastic Four or something. :P

Revel
Apr 14th 2007, 01:44 PM
Christ’s prophecy and his Revelation to Paul

God bless you all and many thanks for posting your feedback. Truly, I am thankful for every response because it allows us to see the diversity of thought on this subject within the body of Christ.

Let me begin by saying this: For those of you following this who already speak in tongues, you know the joy, peace, comfort, confidence, and strength within, that this sign brings.

This thread is focused on “tongues,” but it is also about joy, peace, comfort, confidence, and strength. This is what our Lord wants for us—and this is what “tongues” brings to those who manifest this sign. (This is not to say “tongues” is the only source of this blessing.)

Now, on to Christ’s revelation: What are the two things our Lord asks of us regarding “tongues” and the interpretation of tongues?

“[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues.” (Mark 16:17)

“Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.” (1 Cor. 14:13 kjv)

With regard to speaking in tongues and the interpretation of tongues, Heaven asks us to engage our hearts and minds: “believe” and “pray.”

Why else would our Lord ask us to “believe” and “pray,” unless he desires that we “believe” and “pray”?

In other words, if we in the body of Christ desire to participate in manifesting the gift of the Holy Spirit, then Heaven desires that we participate.

How many of us in the body of Christ would like to participate in the joy, peace, comfort, confidence, and strength within, that the sign of “tongues” brings? This is the central purpose for this thread.

Just as we as members of the body of Christ shower one another with blessings, or Lord desires to do likewise from Heaven—and the sign of “tongues” yields blessings… which includes this:

“He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.” (1 Cor. 14:5 kjv)

In essence, to “believe”—in this category of the Spirit—yields personal edification.

What else did Christ reveal to Paul?

We know from Christ’s revelation that the Spirit divides to “every man severally as he [the Spirit] wills” (1 Cor. 12:11 kjv).

Herein, a literal rendering… of what is literally stated… reveals this: The will of the Spirit… and our will (to “believe” and “pray”)… work together; the result is what Heaven seeks for us: blessings. Additionally, we know that the Spirit divides “severally,” meaning, it is possible for one member of the body of Christ to manifest the Holy Spirit in more than one way, like speaking in tongues along with the interpretation of tongues.

For almost 2000 years, Heaven has been asking the body of Christ to participate…

To be continued…

God bless.

revel

godsgirl
Apr 14th 2007, 04:21 PM
While all Christians who are baptised in the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues (Acts 2:4, Acts 19:6, Acts 10:46) these tongues are NOT "the gift of tongues" spoken of by the Apostle Paul-the gifts of the Spirit are for the church gathered-the speaking in tongues that we all can do is for speaking to God (prayer). So just because one speaks in tongues in their private prayer time-that does NOT mean that they will be used in the "gift of tongues" which is for the church -and must be accompianed by the "gift of interpretation" so that the church can be edified.

john914
Apr 14th 2007, 07:26 PM
Since I am old and heard all this before, I am just going to say that TONGUES WAS A GIFT, but its purpose was a sign. In Joel it was told that tongues will be a sign of the Christ, but WHO was Joel speaking too? THE JEWS. I cor. Paul writes that the Jews required a SIGN. So all this tongues stuff was aimed at the Jews to recieve savior, And God gave them 40 years to repent, but many refused to believe, so God had the temple destroyed in ad 70 (as another sign)and TONGUES WERE NOT NEEDED ANY MORE. The Jews got there sign and their promise from God and they had eyes that did not see and ears that would not hear.

John914

VerticalReality
Apr 14th 2007, 10:52 PM
Since I am old and heard all this before, I am just going to say that TONGUES WAS A GIFT, but its purpose was a sign. In Joel it was told that tongues will be a sign of the Christ, but WHO was Joel speaking too? THE JEWS. I cor. Paul writes that the Jews required a SIGN. So all this tongues stuff was aimed at the Jews to recieve savior, And God gave them 40 years to repent, but many refused to believe, so God had the temple destroyed in ad 70 (as another sign)and TONGUES WERE NOT NEEDED ANY MORE. The Jews got there sign and their promise from God and they had eyes that did not see and ears that would not hear.

John914

So, if it's a sign for the jews, why the need to give this gift at the house of Cornelius? There were no jews there that needed a sign.

godsgirl
Apr 15th 2007, 01:37 PM
Besides that-Peter told us who the baptism in the Spirit was for-"for you, your children and all who are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL." Acts 2:39-and that, thank you Lord, includes me.

Paul did not use it for a "sign" when he said that he did it quite often in his prayer life. Prayer is for God's ears-not humans.

cwb
Apr 15th 2007, 07:08 PM
All the gifts of the Spirit are given by the Father, but why so much focus on the least of the gifts, when there is a more excellent way?


Where do you get that tongues is the least of the gifts?

Bick
Apr 16th 2007, 12:07 AM
Hi Revel and others. When quoting Mark 16, lets quote vs. 17 and 18.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

NOW, as a sign to unbelievers, will you be willing to drink some poison to show it will not hurt you? And, wouldn't being bit by a poisonous snake and not be poisoned be a tremendous witness? Why just pick out "tongues"? Also, casting out devils and healing the sick was on the list.

Wouldn't any of these 'signs' give you joy, peace, confidence and strength?

When I read about the gifts of the Spirit in the Corinthian church, I have to remember that they didn't have a 'New Testament'. Until Paul's letters, the only 'scripture' they had was the Hebrew Scriptures quoted by Paul and others.

Therefore, they needed those who could 'prophecy' or 'forth tell" for edification, and exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3).

"He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church" 1 Cor. 14:4, KJV. So, what was best? To edify, build up, the church, or edify one's own self?

But, to me, the answer is 1 Cor. 14:21, "In the law it is written, 'WITH MEN OF OTHER TONGUES AND OTHER LIPS WILL I SPEAK UNTO THIS PEOPLE; AND YET FOR ALL THAT WILL THEY NOT HEAR ME', saith the Lord."

During the Acts period, the Kingdom was again being offered to Israel, as Peter testified. We know 'the Jews require a sign' and, IMO, the Spirit granted all the gifts as such signs primarily to Israel.

My understanding is that the Corinthian letters were some of the first written by Paul.

As to the gifts given by our Lord, in 1 Cor. 12:28 we read, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." KJV.

Sometime later Paul writes to the Romans in 12:6ff, "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; or ministry, let us wait on our ministering; or he that teacheth, on teaching; or he that exhorteth on exhortation: he that giveth let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

NOTICE: What gifts are listed--and which are missing from the earlier list?

In Ephesians, that marvelous revelation given to Paul, and written while in prison, is one of the last letters he wrote. And concerning gifts for the church/body of Christ, we read in 4:11-13:
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers."

This, to me, says that the earlier Corinthian sign-gifts have ended. By the time Paul wrote the 'prison epistles', many of his other letters were copied and circulated to the known Gentile churches.

Today, having the complete Word of God, we have His total written revelation.

And, for me, nothing lifts me up to the heavenlies like Ephesians. To read that we, the body of Christ are sons of God, and if sons, heirs and joint-heirs with Christ, to be realized in the heavenlies, blessings beyond any comprehension we might have. Read Ephesians ch. 1-3.

What more can be said?

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2007, 01:45 AM
Hi Revel and others. When quoting Mark 16, lets quote vs. 17 and 18.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

NOW, as a sign to unbelievers, will you be willing to drink some poison to show it will not hurt you? And, wouldn't being bit by a poisonous snake and not be poisoned be a tremendous witness? Why just pick out "tongues"? Also, casting out devils and healing the sick was on the list.

Wouldn't any of these 'signs' give you joy, peace, confidence and strength?

When I read about the gifts of the Spirit in the Corinthian church, I have to remember that they didn't have a 'New Testament'. Until Paul's letters, the only 'scripture' they had was the Hebrew Scriptures quoted by Paul and others.

Therefore, they needed those who could 'prophecy' or 'forth tell" for edification, and exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3).

"He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church" 1 Cor. 14:4, KJV. So, what was best? To edify, build up, the church, or edify one's own self?

But, to me, the answer is 1 Cor. 14:21, "In the law it is written, 'WITH MEN OF OTHER TONGUES AND OTHER LIPS WILL I SPEAK UNTO THIS PEOPLE; AND YET FOR ALL THAT WILL THEY NOT HEAR ME', saith the Lord."

During the Acts period, the Kingdom was again being offered to Israel, as Peter testified. We know 'the Jews require a sign' and, IMO, the Spirit granted all the gifts as such signs primarily to Israel.

My understanding is that the Corinthian letters were some of the first written by Paul.

As to the gifts given by our Lord, in 1 Cor. 12:28 we read, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." KJV.

Sometime later Paul writes to the Romans in 12:6ff, "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; or ministry, let us wait on our ministering; or he that teacheth, on teaching; or he that exhorteth on exhortation: he that giveth let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

NOTICE: What gifts are listed--and which are missing from the earlier list?

In Ephesians, that marvelous revelation given to Paul, and written while in prison, is one of the last letters he wrote. And concerning gifts for the church/body of Christ, we read in 4:11-13:
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers."

This, to me, says that the earlier Corinthian sign-gifts have ended. By the time Paul wrote the 'prison epistles', many of his other letters were copied and circulated to the known Gentile churches.

Today, having the complete Word of God, we have His total written revelation.

And, for me, nothing lifts me up to the heavenlies like Ephesians. To read that we, the body of Christ are sons of God, and if sons, heirs and joint-heirs with Christ, to be realized in the heavenlies, blessings beyond any comprehension we might have. Read Ephesians ch. 1-3.

What more can be said?

So, basically what you just stated is that there is no longer a gift of exhortation. Thanks. I guess I can stop bothering to encourage others.

Why do cessationists always pick out the prophetic gifts to make their case for gifts being passed away? Why don't they ever pick out gifts like exhortation or giving? I guess we no longer need to worry about giving either.

It's unfortunate that about 1/3 of this perfect bible that cessationists talk about is no longer applicable. I wonder why some of this stuff was included to begin with.

And still, nobody has bothered to answer my initial question. If the gift of tongues was intended to be a "sign" gift for the jews, why was the gift given in Acts 10 at the house of Cornelius when not a single jew that needed a sign was present?

TEITZY
Apr 16th 2007, 02:41 AM
How many of us in the body of Christ would like to participate in the joy, peace, comfort, confidence, and strength within, that the sign of “tongues” brings?

I can think of many things that 'tongues' so called has brought to the church in the last 100 years or so but most are negative and few if any have been positive. People like to hold up the Corinthians as a model all Christians should aspire to and yet they were the most worldy and carnal (1 Cor 3:1-4) church in the NT despite the fact that they had ALL the spiritual/sign gifts (1 Cor 1:7). What is needed in the Church is a more earnest desire for the fruits of the Spirit rather than the self edification brought about through the desire for sign gifts like tongues.

In 1 Cor 12:28 Paul assigns to tongues the lowest priority amongst the gifts listed. So if people are so desirous of spiritual gifts why hasn't there been a massive "helps" movement or "administrations" movement which Paul says are more important and more edifying to the church than speaking in tongues? Why the infatuation with tongues and not helps? I'll let people make their own conclusions, but the reasons will be obvious to those with an ounce of spiritual discerment.

As for the importance of tongues being a sign for all those who believe, one wonders how the church ever survived from 100-1900 AD when 'tongues' were practically non-existent. Obviously the likes of Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Knox, Edwards, Muller, Spurgeon and many other spiritual giants of this period were seriously deficient in their spirituality because none spoke with tongues to my knowledge? If tongues is a supernatural gift imparted by the Holy Spirit upon the church and is so important for the spiritual well being of believers and the church as a whole then why has this gift not been abundantly present or manifested through all the church age and to every believer? Doesn't Christ know what His Church needs? Aren't gifts provided by the Spirit out of necessity for the building up of the body?

So what has the modern day tongues movement brought to the church that is so indespensible, that the church could not survive without it? I can't think of one thing!

Cheers
Leigh

TEITZY
Apr 16th 2007, 02:54 AM
And still, nobody has bothered to answer my initial question. If the gift of tongues was intended to be a "sign" gift for the jews, why was the gift given in Acts 10 at the house of Cornelius when not a single jew that needed a sign was present?

So your absolutely 100% sure that none of Cornelius' "relatives and close friends" (10:24) were unbelieving Jews? This would be despite the fact that Cornelius is described as "a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews". So you are assuming that none of his "close friends" were Jews or that he neglected to invite any of his Jewish friends despite the importance attached to Peter's visit?

Cheers
Leigh

SIG
Apr 16th 2007, 03:17 AM
Put me down with post #17...

And, as I continue to study Acts, I find I'm leaning toward cessationist...

As for the Church resisting God's will all these centuries...say what?

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2007, 03:38 AM
So your absolutely 100% sure that none of Cornelius' "relatives and close friends" (10:24) were unbelieving Jews? This would be despite the fact that Cornelius is described as "a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews". So you are assuming that none of his "close friends" were Jews or that he neglected to invite any of his Jewish friends despite the importance attached to Peter's visit?

Cheers
Leigh

Good reputation is one thing. Congregating in the home of the "unclean" is another. Why do you think Peter had such a difficult time accepting the fact that God was calling him to the home of a gentile?

VerticalReality
Apr 16th 2007, 03:45 AM
Another question is this . . . why is Paul instructing the church at Corinth to speak in tongues to themselves when no interpreter is present? Why would the Spirit of God be giving them a gift to operate in when nobody is present to benefit from it? I mean if the gift of tongues is only needed as a "sign gift" to the unbelieving jew, why the need to give the gift at all to a Christian when there is no way for the unbelieving jew to be present to hear it? Paul basically tells them to speak those tongues to themselves. Why would the Spirit be giving a gift when there is nobody there to receive anything from it?

cwb
Apr 16th 2007, 05:03 AM
Another question is this . . . why is Paul instructing the church at Corinth to speak in tongues to themselves when no interpreter is present? Why would the Spirit of God be giving them a gift to operate in when nobody is present to benefit from it? I mean if the gift of tongues is only needed as a "sign gift" to the unbelieving jew, why the need to give the gift at all to a Christian when there is no way for the unbelieving jew to be present to hear it? Paul basically tells them to speak those tongues to themselves. Why would the Spirit be giving a gift when there is nobody there to receive anything from it?

Excellent point. It is only a sign when it is done publicly in church. That is the context when we are told it is a sign to the jew. There are many benefits to speaking in tongue quietly to oneself in which case it would not be a sign to anybody - such as giving thanks well, perfect prayer in the spirit, speaking divine mysteries to God, and edification.

jiggyfly
Apr 16th 2007, 08:39 PM
Hi Revel and others. When quoting Mark 16, lets quote vs. 17 and 18.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

NOW, as a sign to unbelievers, will you be willing to drink some poison to show it will not hurt you? And, wouldn't being bit by a poisonous snake and not be poisoned be a tremendous witness? Why just pick out "tongues"? Also, casting out devils and healing the sick was on the list.

Wouldn't any of these 'signs' give you joy, peace, confidence and strength?

When I read about the gifts of the Spirit in the Corinthian church, I have to remember that they didn't have a 'New Testament'. Until Paul's letters, the only 'scripture' they had was the Hebrew Scriptures quoted by Paul and others.

Therefore, they needed those who could 'prophecy' or 'forth tell" for edification, and exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3).

"He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church" 1 Cor. 14:4, KJV. So, what was best? To edify, build up, the church, or edify one's own self?

But, to me, the answer is 1 Cor. 14:21, "In the law it is written, 'WITH MEN OF OTHER TONGUES AND OTHER LIPS WILL I SPEAK UNTO THIS PEOPLE; AND YET FOR ALL THAT WILL THEY NOT HEAR ME', saith the Lord."

During the Acts period, the Kingdom was again being offered to Israel, as Peter testified. We know 'the Jews require a sign' and, IMO, the Spirit granted all the gifts as such signs primarily to Israel.

My understanding is that the Corinthian letters were some of the first written by Paul.

As to the gifts given by our Lord, in 1 Cor. 12:28 we read, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." KJV.

Sometime later Paul writes to the Romans in 12:6ff, "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; or ministry, let us wait on our ministering; or he that teacheth, on teaching; or he that exhorteth on exhortation: he that giveth let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

NOTICE: What gifts are listed--and which are missing from the earlier list?

In Ephesians, that marvelous revelation given to Paul, and written while in prison, is one of the last letters he wrote. And concerning gifts for the church/body of Christ, we read in 4:11-13:
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers."

This, to me, says that the earlier Corinthian sign-gifts have ended. By the time Paul wrote the 'prison epistles', many of his other letters were copied and circulated to the known Gentile churches.

Today, having the complete Word of God, we have His total written revelation.

And, for me, nothing lifts me up to the heavenlies like Ephesians. To read that we, the body of Christ are sons of God, and if sons, heirs and joint-heirs with Christ, to be realized in the heavenlies, blessings beyond any comprehension we might have. Read Ephesians ch. 1-3.

What more can be said?
Seeing as you now have the complete word of God and His total written revelation why are you here and why go to "Church"?

jiggyfly
Apr 16th 2007, 08:47 PM
I can think of many things that 'tongues' so called has brought to the church in the last 100 years or so but most are negative and few if any have been positive. People like to hold up the Corinthians as a model all Christians should aspire to and yet they were the most worldy and carnal (1 Cor 3:1-4) church in the NT despite the fact that they had ALL the spiritual/sign gifts (1 Cor 1:7). What is needed in the Church is a more earnest desire for the fruits of the Spirit rather than the self edification brought about through the desire for sign gifts like tongues.

In 1 Cor 12:28 Paul assigns to tongues the lowest priority amongst the gifts listed. So if people are so desirous of spiritual gifts why hasn't there been a massive "helps" movement or "administrations" movement which Paul says are more important and more edifying to the church than speaking in tongues? Why the infatuation with tongues and not helps? I'll let people make their own conclusions, but the reasons will be obvious to those with an ounce of spiritual discerment.


As for the importance of tongues being a sign for all those who believe, one wonders how the church ever survived from 100-1900 AD when 'tongues' were practically non-existent. Obviously the likes of Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Knox, Edwards, Muller, Spurgeon and many other spiritual giants of this period were seriously deficient in their spirituality because none spoke with tongues to my knowledge? If tongues is a supernatural gift imparted by the Holy Spirit upon the church and is so important for the spiritual well being of believers and the church as a whole then why has this gift not been abundantly present or manifested through all the church age and to every believer? Doesn't Christ know what His Church needs? Aren't gifts provided by the Spirit out of necessity for the building up of the body?

So what has the modern day tongues movement brought to the church that is so indespensible, that the church could not survive without it? I can't think of one thing!

Cheers
Leigh

As far as you know, how many here at this board speak in tongues? As far as you know, do I speak in tongues? Why all the opposition to Speaking in tongues today???????

godsgirl
Apr 16th 2007, 10:44 PM
As far as you know, how many here at this board speak in tongues? As far as you know, do I speak in tongues? Why all the opposition to Speking in tongues today???????


The opposition comes from false pride-if they admit the Bible teaches that tongues are the initial physical evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (which it does) then they will have to admit that they do not have that-and for some, that is too hard to do.

godsgirl
Apr 16th 2007, 10:57 PM
Hi Revel and others. When quoting Mark 16, lets quote vs. 17 and 18.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

NOW, as a sign to unbelievers, will you be willing to drink some poison to show it will not hurt you? And, wouldn't being bit by a poisonous snake and not be poisoned be a tremendous witness? Why just pick out "tongues"? Also, casting out devils and healing the sick was on the list.


Tongues are the evidence that the Bible gives for the baptism in the Holy Spirit-we didn't "pick out tongues" God did.

Wouldn't any of these 'signs' give you joy, peace, confidence and strength?

When I read about the gifts of the Spirit in the Corinthian church, I have to remember that they didn't have a 'New Testament'. Until Paul's letters, the only 'scripture' they had was the Hebrew Scriptures quoted by Paul and others.

Therefore, they needed those who could 'prophecy' or 'forth tell" for edification, and exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3).

"He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church" 1 Cor. 14:4, KJV. So, what was best? To edify, build up, the church, or edify one's own self?


You took those verses out of context-in reading the "whole" thing we find Paul saying, "he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" and when the gift of tongues and interpretation are used together, they "edify the body"-Paul wasn't putting down one while building up the other-merely saying each had it's place. False humility tells you that you don't need to build up your faith. On the contrary Paul tells us to "build ourselves up in our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit".

But, to me, the answer is 1 Cor. 14:21, "In the law it is written, 'WITH MEN OF OTHER TONGUES AND OTHER LIPS WILL I SPEAK UNTO THIS PEOPLE; AND YET FOR ALL THAT WILL THEY NOT HEAR ME', saith the Lord."

During the Acts period, the Kingdom was again being offered to Israel, as Peter testified. We know 'the Jews require a sign' and, IMO, the Spirit granted all the gifts as such signs primarily to Israel.

Peter told us that "for this promise is to you, to your children and to ALL WHO ARE AFAR OFF, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL."--and guess what? He said that during "the Acts period"--Jesus is our baptiser in the Holy Spirit and He is the same FOREVER.

My understanding is that the Corinthian letters were some of the first written by Paul.

As to the gifts given by our Lord, in 1 Cor. 12:28 we read, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." KJV.

So what does that mean-are you saying that because tounges are listed last-they are somehow inferior? What about "faith, hope, and love" we find love listed last-but it is the greatest.

Sometime later Paul writes to the Romans in 12:6ff, "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; or ministry, let us wait on our ministering; or he that teacheth, on teaching; or he that exhorteth on exhortation: he that giveth let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

The above are not "spiritual gifts" the only gifts Paul lists as "spiritual gifts" are those listed in 1 Corinthians-and they are all supernatural-those above are not.

NOTICE: What gifts are listed--and which are missing from the earlier list?

In Ephesians, that marvelous revelation given to Paul, and written while in prison, is one of the last letters he wrote. And concerning gifts for the church/body of Christ, we read in 4:11-13:
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers."

Again, these are not "spiritual gifts" sorry.

This, to me, says that the earlier Corinthian sign-gifts have ended. By the time Paul wrote the 'prison epistles', many of his other letters were copied and circulated to the known Gentile churches.

Paul said that they would end when "that which is perfect is come, and we know as we are known."--even if you disagree-we do NOT know as we are known-we still "see through a glass darkly."

Today, having the complete Word of God, we have His total written revelation.

And, for me, nothing lifts me up to the heavenlies like Ephesians. To read that we, the body of Christ are sons of God, and if sons, heirs and joint-heirs with Christ, to be realized in the heavenlies, blessings beyond any comprehension we might have. Read Ephesians ch. 1-3.

What more can be said?


It's nice that you like the book of Ephesians-it is my favorite book also-but that doesn't mean that I cut out the rest of God's Word like so many ceasationists try to do. I think it's shameful how many holes you want to put in the Word because you must either ignore what it says or say that it doesn't apply to you. Remember, "ALL scripture is given by God and is profitable for doctrine".

jiggyfly
Apr 17th 2007, 11:06 AM
I can think of many things that 'tongues' so called has brought to the church in the last 100 years or so but most are negative and few if any have been positive. People like to hold up the Corinthians as a model all Christians should aspire to and yet they were the most worldy and carnal (1 Cor 3:1-4) church in the NT despite the fact that they had ALL the spiritual/sign gifts (1 Cor 1:7). What is needed in the Church is a more earnest desire for the fruits of the Spirit rather than the self edification brought about through the desire for sign gifts like tongues.

In 1 Cor 12:28 Paul assigns to tongues the lowest priority amongst the gifts listed. So if people are so desirous of spiritual gifts why hasn't there been a massive "helps" movement or "administrations" movement which Paul says are more important and more edifying to the church than speaking in tongues? Why the infatuation with tongues and not helps? I'll let people make their own conclusions, but the reasons will be obvious to those with an ounce of spiritual discerment.

As for the importance of tongues being a sign for all those who believe, one wonders how the church ever survived from 100-1900 AD when 'tongues' were practically non-existent. Obviously the likes of Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Knox, Edwards, Muller, Spurgeon and many other spiritual giants of this period were seriously deficient in their spirituality because none spoke with tongues to my knowledge? If tongues is a supernatural gift imparted by the Holy Spirit upon the church and is so important for the spiritual well being of believers and the church as a whole then why has this gift not been abundantly present or manifested through all the church age and to every believer? Doesn't Christ know what His Church needs? Aren't gifts provided by the Spirit out of necessity for the building up of the body?

So what has the modern day tongues movement brought to the church that is so indespensible, that the church could not survive without it? I can't think of one thing!

Cheers
Leigh

Do you or have you ever had the gift of speaking in tongues? For all those who haven't experienced this gift and yet have an opinion of it is kinda like hating broccoli without ever even tasting it.

To save me some time check out this post on why tongues is so important today. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1209491#post1209491

Flutecrafter
Apr 21st 2007, 04:44 AM
The opposition comes from false pride-if they admit the Bible teaches that tongues are the initial physical evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (which it does) then they will have to admit that they do not have that-and for some, that is too hard to do.
LOL

It may come from pride.. dunno, haven't read the rest of the thread yet,
but I will mention that no.. tongues is not the evidence of the Baptism. :)
the Power of God for service is. :)

mark

jiggyfly
Apr 21st 2007, 01:04 PM
LOL

It may come from pride.. dunno, haven't read the rest of the thread yet,
but I will mention that no.. tongues is not the evidence of the Baptism. :)
the Power of God for service is. :)

mark
Tongues may not be THE evidence but it is an evidence of HolySpirit baptism.

godsgirl
Apr 21st 2007, 02:09 PM
LOL

It may come from pride.. dunno, haven't read the rest of the thread yet,
but I will mention that no.. tongues is not the evidence of the Baptism. :)
the Power of God for service is. :)

mark


Actually, I should have made myself clearer. "Tongues are the INITIAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE" of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. They are not the ONLY evidence but yes, according to the examples we have in the Word of God-they are the initial evidence. Look at Acts 10

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 FOR they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. (NIV)


How did the Jewish believers know that the Gentile Christians were baptised in the Spirit and therefore Christians with the right to be baptised in water? The answer is plain here and in other scriptures-Acts 19:6-and Acts 2:4 that when evidence of the baptism in the Spirit is given-tongues are that evidence.

Walstib
Apr 21st 2007, 05:51 PM
Tongues may not be THE evidence but it is an evidence of HolySpirit baptism.

Want to start a new thread for baptism of the Holy Spirit?

I'll join in that one... I dissagree completly.

Peace,

Joe

jiggyfly
Apr 21st 2007, 07:09 PM
Want to start a new thread for baptism of the Holy Spirit?

I'll join in that one... I dissagree completly.

Peace,

Joe
For what purpose Joe??? You can voice your opinion in this thread just the same.

watchinginawe
Apr 21st 2007, 07:54 PM
In 1 Cor 12:28 Paul assigns to tongues the lowest priority amongst the gifts listed. So if people are so desirous of spiritual gifts why hasn't there been a massive "helps" movement or "administrations" movement which Paul says are more important and more edifying to the church than speaking in tongues? Why the infatuation with tongues and not helps? I'll let people make their own conclusions, but the reasons will be obvious to those with an ounce of spiritual discerment.TEITYZ, All of the gifts of the Spirit are important. The "movement" word you are looking for is the "Charismatic" movement, which doesn't disallow any of the Spiritual gifts.
As for the importance of tongues being a sign for all those who believe, one wonders how the church ever survived from 100-1900 AD when 'tongues' were practically non-existent. Obviously the likes of Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Knox, Edwards, Muller, Spurgeon and many other spiritual giants of this period were seriously deficient in their spirituality because none spoke with tongues to my knowledge? If tongues is a supernatural gift imparted by the Holy Spirit upon the church and is so important for the spiritual well being of believers and the church as a whole then why has this gift not been abundantly present or manifested through all the church age and to every believer? Doesn't Christ know what His Church needs? Aren't gifts provided by the Spirit out of necessity for the building up of the body?

So what has the modern day tongues movement brought to the church that is so indespensible, that the church could not survive without it? I can't think of one thing!It must have been logic like this which lead Paul to finally say: I Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order. That really addresses both ends of the matter, doesn't it?

As to how the Church and the believer made it without "tongues" so to speak, I could use the same logic about the believer as regards the Bible. Toss it aside since so many generations of believers were able to sustain faith without access to the word of God. Is that what you would say? Of course not. TEITZY, the logic is faulty. What good thing has come about with the mass publishing of the Bible? The Protestant reformation and the fragmentation of the "Church" you speak about that survived so many centuries? Again, I don't believe you would think it wise to withold the word of God from believers. Right? But how did the Church "make it" until the point where God could bless us with the publishing of the Holy Bible? One could ask, "Why the later need?". One could point to, "Look what it has caused". Nevertheless, these don't qualify whether the word of God should be published and common among believers in this later age.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Apr 21st 2007, 08:08 PM
So, if it's a sign for the jews, why the need to give this gift at the house of Cornelius? There were no jews there that needed a sign.I'll answer your question, but remember, I am on your side. :lol: Certainly tongues can function as a sign. Certainly that is not the only function of tongues. It certainly wouldn't work to say that the tongues at Cornelius' house were for the "unbelieving" Jew, but rather in this case, the "believing" Jew, but for a different purpose. I have bolded the parts which make the point:

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Notice where Peter makes his decision in the following passage:

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

God Bless!

Walstib
Apr 21st 2007, 08:10 PM
For what purpose Joe??? You can voice your opinion in this thread just the same.

Yah I know, but I see it as a separate topic than the specific one of the original post so I wanted to respect that. I thought if you outlined your position in full I would not be jumping to any more conclusions as it is easy to misunderstand people here. I will start it if I don’t see one from you.

Peace,

Joe

Flutecrafter
Apr 21st 2007, 08:16 PM
Actually, I should have made myself clearer. "Tongues are the INITIAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE" of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. They are not the ONLY evidence but yes, according to the examples we have in the Word of God-they are the initial evidence. Look at Acts 10

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 FOR they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. (NIV)


How did the Jewish believers know that the Gentile Christians were baptised in the Spirit and therefore Christians with the right to be baptised in water? The answer is plain here and in other scriptures-Acts 19:6-and Acts 2:4 that when evidence of the baptism in the Spirit is given-tongues are that evidence.Well now, that is one way to look at it I suppose.. and I'm too tired to be willing to argue about it right now.

I would ask you one question...
What about all those folks that have had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, as is evidenced by the working of God's power in their lives...
And yet have never spoken in tongues. :)

mark

godsgirl
Apr 21st 2007, 09:53 PM
Well now, that is one way to look at it I suppose.. and I'm too tired to be willing to argue about it right now.

I would ask you one question...
What about all those folks that have had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, as is evidenced by the working of God's power in their lives...
And yet have never spoken in tongues. :)

mark

Again, according to scripture tongues are the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit-this is NOT to say that ALL of us-who are believers do not have the Holy Spirit-not saying that at all, just that there is more-for those who are willing to accept. We are not told ANYWHERE that the way the disciples knew that the baptism in the Spirit had occured was Gods power evident in lives-the baptism in the Spirit happened at a SPECIFIC MOMENT in believers lives-and at that moment they spoke in tongues as the Spirit enabled them.


Acts 2:4-"and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them to speak"

Acts 19:6 "When Paul placed his hand on them the Holy Sprit came on them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied"

Acts 10:46 "For we heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God"


These are the last days, the increase in those who speak with other tongues is just another sign of the end....
BUT...there have been those who all through the ages have been baptised in the Holy Spirit and tongues are there.

Without question, some believers who do not speak in tongues have accomplished great things for God. However, every student of Scripture must determine whether to base doctrine on God’s Word or on experiences of even the most devout believers. Because the Bible indicates that all may speak with tongues in private prayer, if not in the congregation, every believer must determine whether to accept or reject this provision of God’s grace.

godsgirl
Apr 21st 2007, 10:03 PM
Yah I know, but I see it as a separate topic than the specific one of the original post so I wanted to respect that. I thought if you outlined your position in full I would not be jumping to any more conclusions as it is easy to misunderstand people here. I will start it if I don’t see one from you.

Peace,

Joe



Sure Joe-go ahead and start one if you'ld like-I'm more than willing to discuss this with you.

TEITZY
Apr 22nd 2007, 02:36 PM
TEITYZ, All of the gifts of the Spirit are important. The "movement" word you are looking for is the "Charismatic" movement, which doesn't disallow any of the Spiritual gifts.

I didn't say tongues were not important (they served their purpose) but Paul doesn't place a high priority on the gift because he knows its use is limited in terms of time and edifying the Church. No spiritual gift should be disallowed if it's Biblical and herein lies my problem with the modern day tongues movement.



It must have been logic like this which lead Paul to finally say: I Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order. That really addresses both ends of the matter, doesn't it?


So the genuine gift of tongues (speaking another known language) was still in operation and Paul says it should be used appropriately. Nonetheless Paul makes it pretty clear in this chapter that tongues is inferior to prophesy when it comes to edification of the church (14:3). And perhaps it should be noted here that the context is Sunday or corporate worship when the church comes together and not some private 'prayer language' spoken in the home or elsewhere supposedly for the purpose of self edification.

I will get back to the other bit of your post tomorrow if time permits.

Cheers
Leigh

godsgirl
Apr 22nd 2007, 08:26 PM
I didn't say tongues were not important (they served their purpose) but Paul doesn't place a high priority on the gift because he knows its use is limited in terms of time and edifying the Church. No spiritual gift should be disallowed if it's Biblical and herein lies my problem with the modern day tongues movement.



So the genuine gift of tongues (speaking another known language) was still in operation and Paul says it should be used appropriately. Nonetheless Paul makes it pretty clear in this chapter that tongues is inferior to prophesy when it comes to edification of the church (14:3). And perhaps it should be noted here that the context is Sunday or corporate worship when the church comes together and not some private 'prayer language' spoken in the home or elsewhere supposedly for the purpose of self edification.

I will get back to the other bit of your post tomorrow if time permits.

Cheers
Leigh

Leigh, please read through the passages again, because Paul DID say that tongues were important-in fact, he said, "I want you all to speak in tongues"--He never said it was somehow inferior, but was merely giving each type of tongue it's proper place. Tongues as prayer-have their place, and tongues as a Spiritual gift-also have a place.

Paul clearly said, that speaking in tongues was for Gods ears-he never said it was some language that others understood. "He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man, but to God, INDEED NO ONE UNDERSTANDS"--

When one speaks in tongues as a Spiritual gift-the gift of interpretation must follow-and that is how the church is edified. Tongues + Interpretation edify the church and are = to Prophesy. Tongues as prayer only edify the individual believer and, therefore are not meant to stand alone in a worship service.


1 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm#foot1) Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. 2 2 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm#foot2) For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. 3 On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, 3 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm#foot3) encouragement, and solace. 4 Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, UNLESS he interprets, so that the church may be built up.
Pauls problem wasn't tongue speaking in the church, it was tongue speaking without interpretation--"if anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be by two or at the most three, each in turn and let one interpret."

However, in his private prayer time, he prayed often in tongues, and he was proud of that fact.

cwb
Apr 23rd 2007, 01:54 AM
I didn't say tongues were not important (they served their purpose) but Paul doesn't place a high priority on the gift because he knows its use is limited in terms of time and edifying the Church. No spiritual gift should be disallowed if it's Biblical and herein lies my problem with the modern day tongues movement.



So the genuine gift of tongues (speaking another known language) was still in operation and Paul says it should be used appropriately. Nonetheless Paul makes it pretty clear in this chapter that tongues is inferior to prophesy when it comes to edification of the church (14:3). And perhaps it should be noted here that the context is Sunday or corporate worship when the church comes together and not some private 'prayer language' spoken in the home or elsewhere supposedly for the purpose of self edification.

I will get back to the other bit of your post tomorrow if time permits.

Cheers
Leigh

But the apostle Paul spoke in tongues alot in his personal life.

I cor. 14 :18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

godsgirl
Apr 23rd 2007, 10:17 PM
If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I WILL pray with my mind and I will ALSO pray with my spirit, I will sing with my mind and I will also sing with my spirit.

The Apostle Paul.

Flutecrafter
Apr 24th 2007, 03:35 PM
Again, according to scripture tongues are the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit-this is NOT to say that ALL of us-who are believers do not have the Holy Spirit-not saying that at all, just that there is more-for those who are willing to accept. We are not told ANYWHERE that the way the disciples knew that the baptism in the Spirit had occured was Gods power evident in lives-the baptism in the Spirit happened at a SPECIFIC MOMENT in believers lives-and at that moment they spoke in tongues as the Spirit enabled them.


Acts 2:4-"and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them to speak"

Acts 19:6 "When Paul placed his hand on them the Holy Sprit came on them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied"

Acts 10:46 "For we heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God"


These are the last days, the increase in those who speak with other tongues is just another sign of the end....
BUT...there have been those who all through the ages have been baptised in the Holy Spirit and tongues are there.

Without question, some believers who do not speak in tongues have accomplished great things for God. However, every student of Scripture must determine whether to base doctrine on God’s Word or on experiences of even the most devout believers. Because the Bible indicates that all may speak with tongues in private prayer, if not in the congregation, every believer must determine whether to accept or reject this provision of God’s grace.given your incomplete picture of the scriptures on this point, I understand where you come to that conclusion.
As for me, I choose to believe the testimony of the brethren that does NOT contradict scripture,
and they tell of a specific moment in time where they were baptised with the Holy ghost,
and yet did not speak in tongues.
As for my part, I choose also to accept whatever provisions of God's grace He wishes to grant me. :)


mark

TEITZY
Apr 24th 2007, 03:52 PM
As to how the Church and the believer made it without "tongues" so to speak, I could use the same logic about the believer as regards the Bible. Toss it aside since so many generations of believers were able to sustain faith without access to the word of God. Is that what you would say? Of course not. TEITZY, the logic is faulty. What good thing has come about with the mass publishing of the Bible? The Protestant reformation and the fragmentation of the "Church" you speak about that survived so many centuries? Again, I don't believe you would think it wise to withold the word of God from believers. Right? But how did the Church "make it" until the point where God could bless us with the publishing of the Holy Bible? One could ask, "Why the later need?". One could point to, "Look what it has caused". Nevertheless, these don't qualify whether the word of God should be published and common among believers in this later age.

God Bless!

A few points:

Firstly, are you implying that tongues is just as important as the Word of God? If you are then I have to strongly disagree with this assertion. Surely you know from the Scriptures & experience that the Word of God is paramount? What defines a church? Is it the fact that they preach and teach the Word of God or that they speak in tongues? Can a church still be called a church if they don't possess the gift of tongues? I believe so. What defines us as Christians or a church is what we believe (which has its basis in the Word of God) and not whether we can speak in tongues.

Secondly, how many generations have survived without any access to the Word of God? Sure access to ALL the Scriptures may have been limited at times during church history, but the Word of God can still be disseminated through preachers, hymns, creeds etc. In fact if whole generations had no access at all to the Word of God then there wouldn't be a Church since saving faith comes through hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17)! If generations had no knowledge of the Word of God how were they be saved in the first place?

Also with limited access to the Scriptures in a common language and high rates of illiteracy, surely the middle and dark ages would have been the most opportune time for a wide manifestation of the gift of tongues to aid Bible translation and the spread of the Gospel in languages that could be understood by all? So at a time in Church history when tongues could have had their greatest impact, they are essentially non-existent in the church.

Thirdly, I think it would be a bit unfair to blame the mass publishing of the Bible for denominationalism since it mentions no such thing. Even if you think denominations are bad and the Bible is to blame, surely the positives of increased access to the Word of God far outweigh any perceived negatives, however the opposite would be true for modern day tongues.

So why after 1800 years has Christ suddenly decided to impart the gift of tongues again on the Church? There must be a very specific purpose since it has been a non-essential for the large majority of believers through the ages. Has tongues made believers more joyous, more spiritual, more knowledgable or more powerful than those who don't speak in tongues?

Cheers
Leigh

VerticalReality
Apr 24th 2007, 03:56 PM
I think we both know that she was not insinuating that the gift of tongues is "paramount" to the Word of God. That is pretty obvious, IMO, so I don't see the need for such a comment.

Regardless, watchinginawe has a very good point in her post, and that point is not that the gift of tongues is more important than the Word of God.

watchinginawe
Apr 24th 2007, 06:00 PM
TEITZY,

From your reply, one might assume that tongues is something not found in the word of God. I'll let others decide if they think I believe tongues are the equivalent of the word of God or not.

The bottom line is that I'm OK if you don't believe in or seek the gifts of the Spirit. The problem is, you don't seem OK if I do believe in and seek the gifts of the Spirit.
So why after 1800 years has Christ suddenly decided to impart the gift of tongues again on the Church? There must be a very specific purpose since it has been a non-essential for the large majority of believers through the ages. Has tongues made believers more joyous, more spiritual, more knowledgable or more powerful than those who don't speak in tongues?It seems to me that your view point regarding gifts of the Spirit is based in some belief of a Spiritual "socialism" of sorts, and that those who are charismatic are somehow Spiritual "capitalists" (or Pharisees), with a sense of greed, self righteousness, or of a special deserving class as regards Spirituality.

The fact is, in my walk, which by far predominantly was without ever speaking in tongues, I am now more joyous, more Spiritual, and more knowledgable regarding the word of God then before speaking in tongues. Now I don't attribute this to tongues specifically, but rather a more open mind and heart to the things of the Spirit. I quit using the "it's not for me" mentality and sought after what God "had for me".

So I use myself as a measure and I can't speak for all of those down through the ages or for yourself. I am sure that there are some who have "come out of" tongues, etc. that can lend testimony to counter mine. However, I can check myself against scripture and I don't find myself or my experience contrary to it.

If our standard is what the Church has done for centuries, then wouldn't we all find ourselves basically to be Catholic? (NOTE: I am not slandering Catholics here, but rather only pointing out that Protestants have a history of departing from centuries of "tradition" when the change is based on scripture or when there is a lack of scriptural support for the tradition.)

God Bless!

godsgirl
Apr 25th 2007, 07:35 PM
given your incomplete picture of the scriptures on this point, I understand where you come to that conclusion.
As for me, I choose to believe the testimony of the brethren that does NOT contradict scripture,
and they tell of a specific moment in time where they were baptised with the Holy ghost,
and yet did not speak in tongues.
As for my part, I choose also to accept whatever provisions of God's grace He wishes to grant me. :)


mark

I'm sorry you feel that way Mark-but to come to the conclusion that I have "contradicted scripture" without proof is a little low.

To go by your "testimony of the bretheren" instead of the Word is doing exactly what your accusing me of.

Revel
Apr 26th 2007, 02:25 PM
God bless you all…

At this point, I am compelled to look at the first century through the eyes of Paul and John, and address the belief that “tongues” ended.

THE BODY OF CHRIST: THE FIRST CENTURY/THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY

Is “tongues” just as valid in the twenty-first century as it was in the first century?

How would Paul answer this question?

Did Heaven really remove this “sign” of “tongues” in the first century?

Or was it spiritual darkness that tried to cover up this “sign”?

What actually happened to the church late in the first century?

What did Paul say?

You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me. (2 Tim. 1:15)

Paul wrote this second letter to Timothy in about A.D. 67.

What did John say?

I [John] wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church. (3 John 9, 10)

John revealed the mind-set of a church leader so twisted that he rejected not only an apostle but also cast Christ’s followers out of the church.

Diotrephes rejected John. Asia rejected Paul.

Church leadership actually dismissed Paul and John!!

How pathetic!!

What was the true “agenda” of these church “leaders”?

How many doctrinal mutations could have come out of this corrupt environment?

How could removing spiritual gifts and signs—at a time like this—benefit the will of Heaven?

Are we as Christ's church supposed to believe that Heaven's grand plan was to pull the plug on spiritual gifts and signs… when authorities were rejecting Paul and John?

How would ending spiritual gifts and signs help the church to see that Paul was teaching the truth?

Why would God document this revolting picture from our spiritual past?

We within the church must be honest with ourselves and examine what some of religious ancestors told us to believe. This must include the belief that the “sign” of “tongues” ended in the first century.

We already know that the first century “authorities” were promoting unsound doctrine in the body of Christ. Paul specifically identified unsound doctrine being taught regarding Christ’s descent for the church. Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, wrote the following:

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:16–18)

Hymenaeus and Philetus “wandered away from the truth” and taught error about the “resurrection.” What resurrection? The same resurrection spoken of by Paul throughout the letters to the church: the resurrection of those who died in Christ.

Why did these “authorities” reject Paul anyway?

Is it possible that they didn’t care for the revelation Christ gave him?

If church “authorities” were promoting unsound doctrine about the resurrection, then is it possible that they were also promoting unsound doctrine about the “sign” of “tongues”?

Is it possible that “authorities” like Diotrephes, Hymenaeus, and Philetus took the church in a direction away from the revelation Christ gave to Paul and John?

Just what exactly did Paul say in Corinthians about spiritual gifts?

In Corinthians, Paul connected spiritual gifts (for us) with the descent of our Lord (for us)…

Why?

How did Paul add the element of time to spiritual gifts?

How did Paul reveal to us that it is impossible for spiritual gifts to have ended in the first century?

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PAUL: 1 CORINTHIANS

How are spiritual gifts and the descent of Christ in the clouds related?

What exactly did Paul reveal when he introduced us to the subject of spiritual gifts?

I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way—in all your speaking and in all your knowledge—because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. THEREFORE YOU DO NOT LACK ANY SPIRITUAL GIFT AS YOU EAGERLY WAIT FOR OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST TO BE REVEALED. (1 Cor. 1:4-7)

Aren’t we still waiting for our Lord to be “revealed” from Heaven?

What did our Lord reveal by revelation to Paul about waiting?

According to Paul, our Lord seeks that we “do not lack any spiritual gift” as we “eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.”

How can we—in clear conscience before Heaven—dismiss the first part of the sentence—spiritual gifts—and yet keep the second part: Christ being “revealed”?

In Corinthians, Chapters 12 and 14 expound upon the first part of Paul’s sentence (“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift”), and Chapter 15 expounds upon the second part of Paul’s sentence (“wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed”).

Doesn’t Chapter 15 still apply to us?

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51, 52)

If Chapter 15 still applies to us, then Chapters 12 and 14 must also apply to us: “Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift… as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.”

In other words, our Lord and Savior handed us the understanding of time: spiritual gifts shall remain in the body of Christ until our Lord is “revealed” in the clouds for us.

If Heaven joined together “spiritual gifts” and waiting “for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed,” then who are we to separate the two?

In essence, just as the descent of our Lord for us is still future tense, so the end of spiritual gifts for us is still future tense.

Herein, the belief that “tongues” “died” in the first century is product of man’s imagination—not divine revelation.

The belief that spiritual gifts don’t apply to us today has become an obsession that devours logic: if spiritual gifts no longer apply as they did in the first century, then we in the twenty-first century would have complete lack in this category, and could not fulfill the will of Heaven as given by Paul—which is ungodly and impossible.

How could we “not lack any spiritual gift” if there are no more spiritual gifts?

What did Paul say about this subject of spiritual gifts?

“Our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift.”

To “confirm” means, “to make firm, make steadfast, secure, make good, corroborate, i.e., make firm or establish by arguments or proofs,” (E. W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p. 180).

For those of us in the body of Christ who hold to the supreme authority of Scripture, we only need the testimony of our Lord and Savior and the revelation he gave to his apostles… which includes this:

“[F]orbid not to speak with tongues” (1 Cor. 14:39 KJV).

If this is the will of Heaven…

“[F]orbid not to speak with tongues.”

Then what is the will of Satan?

“[F]orbid to speak with tongues.”

How many of us were forbidden (directly or indirectly) to speak with tongues?

How many of our religious ancestors never “went there” and never discussed the subject of “tongues” from the pulpit?

Directly or indirectly, “tongues” was dismissed.

Dismissing Christ’s revelation to Paul is exactly what Hymenaeus and Philetus did.

Who gave Hymenaeus and Philetus the authority to dismiss Christ’s revelation and contradict Paul?

Hymenaeus and Philetus…

Hymenaeus and Philetus bestowed upon themselves this authority to dismiss Christ’s revelation to Paul… This is our example of what not to follow.

As Godsgirl said, “Remember, “All Scripture is given by God and is profitable for doctrine.”

Finally… How did Paul introduce his letter to the Corinthians?

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, TO THE CHURCH OF GOD IN CORINTH, TO THOSE SANCTIFIED IN CHRIST JESUS AND CALLED TO BE HOLY, TOGETHER WITH ALL THOSE EVERYWHERE WHO CALL ON THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST—their Lord and ours. (1 Cor. 1:1, 2)

This letter—the entire letter—is to us, the body of Christ—whether it is the first century or the twenty-first century... This letter builds upon the revelation our Lord gave on the day of his ascension:

“[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues.” (Mark 16:17)

Not one verse contradicts Christ’s prophecy.

Next: Christ’s Revelation: Sound Doctrine: The Will of Our Lord

God bless.

revel

Revel
Apr 26th 2007, 02:35 PM
CHRIST’S REVELATION: SOUND DOCTRINE: THE WILL OF OUR LORD

As many of us know, the benefit of tongues does not end with personal strength (“edification”), it continues with this:

“For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.” (1 Cor. 14:2)

Think about what Paul revealed… the Creator of the heavens and the Earth seeks for us, his creation, to speak to him perfectly… in the Spirit!!

Through the indwelling Holy Spirit, our Creator has enabled us to speak to him—directly and perfectly—speaking divine “mysteries.”

It is not a question of whether we speak to our God… when we speak in tongues… we do.

It is not a question of whether the will of Heaven applies to us… it does.

The will of Heaven is not a variable… nor is it a mystery…

This is the will of Heaven: “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:5).

What is the question we answer?

It is a question of the will of man. That is the variable…

“[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues.” (Mark 16:17)

Or…

[T]hese signs will not accompany those who don’t believe . . . they will not speak in new tongues.

What can we as Christ’s church hope to gain by trying to ignore Christ’s prophecy on the day of his ascension?

For those of you following this who have not spoken in tongues… I address this to you: There is no need to be in subjection to any “authority” that forbids you to speak in tongues…

Just say no… to unsound doctrine…


UNSOUND DOCTRINE: TWISTED SCRIPTURE

I would like every one of you to not speak in tongues.

[F]orbid to speak with tongues.

Tongues, then, are not a sign for unbelievers.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth not himself.

[T]hese signs will not accompany those who don’t believe . . . they will not speak in new tongues.

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to God. Indeed, he utters not mysteries with his spirit.

Follow not after charity [God’s love], and desire not spiritual gifts.

…It doesn’t matter how our religious ancestors tried to “explain away” “tongues”; the explanation will always be unsound because the doctrine they sought to promote was unsound.


For those of you who have not spoken with tongues, just say yes to…

SOUND DOCTRINE: THE TESTIMONY OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR

“[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues.” (Mark 16:17)

“I would like every one of you to speak in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:5).

“[F]orbid not to speak with tongues” (1 Cor. 14:39 KJV).

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. (1 Cor. 14:22)

“He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.” (1 Cor. 14:5 KJV)

“For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.” (1 Cor. 14:2)

“Follow after charity [God’s love], and desire spiritual gifts.” (1 Cor. 14:1 KJV).

“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.” (1 Cor. 1:7)

To be continued…

God bless.

revel

davidturtledove
Apr 26th 2007, 08:48 PM
The spiritual gift i pray for is prophecy.

godsgirl
Apr 26th 2007, 11:48 PM
That's a great gift to pray for david. In the Bible we are actually only told to
"covet" one time-and that is in reference to the Spiritual Gifts.

I just believe that the Bible teaches that the "doorway" to these gifts is the Baptism in the Spirit-and when one is baptised in the Spirit they receive a tongue to speak to God with. "He who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God, Indeed no one understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries:

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 27th 2007, 01:18 AM
There are some who would say that today’s practice is no different than the cults. I would agree in part. There are many liberal Episcopalians and RCC Priests who also participate in the present day movement.

So, if the true believer is participating in today’s version of tongues which is the same as the priests described above, without even looking at their doctrinal position, you would, based on your experience, have to say they are Spirit-Filled.

The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has fueled an ecumenical movement that was nearly dead just before Azusa Street.

As with any movement, the Word of God must be our standard. 1John 4:1-6 clearly tells us to test all things. And of course, that test is the proper use of scripture.

Before I continue, many say that those who are baptized in the Spirit (Spirit Filled) should speak in tongues. I would like to remind you that both Jesus and John the Baptist were filled with the Spirit. And, neither spoke in tongues.

Acts 2 is the key passage to how tongues should be exhibited.

Tongues was a method to share Christ in a language that was unknown to the speaker, but known to the hearers. Every NT mention of tongues is a known language to men. The NT gift is not an angelic language.

Acts 2 describes tongues as a human language.

See Acts 2:4, filled and spoke; Acts 2:8 “our own tongue”; Acts 2:9-11, a list of nations represented who heard the wonderful works of God in their own language.

The multitude not only heard in their own language, but their own dialect too (Acts 2:6)

Acts 10 and Acts 19 are the same.

Acts 10:45 The house of Cornelias; The Apostles heard God being magnified through tongues (their own dialect) which was the same as Acts 2. Acts 10:47 mentions that they received the Holy Spirit, and then were baptized. And Acts 10:47 say that they had the same experience just as the Apostles had experienced. What was that? Tongues in known earthly, human languages.

Acts 19:6 tells us that they spoke in tongues and prophesied. Joel is quoted regarding the prophecy. Again, this was known languages. BTW, prophesy is to tell forth the word of God.

Now, 1 Corinthians 14 is Paul trying to persuade them to not use the gift. Finally, he sets out some boundaries to curb the abuse.

This tongue is taught by some to be a different tongue than the others. This is a mistake. It is still an earthly, human language.

A point needs to be made, if Corinth’s experience with tongues was different than the others, why doesn’t it appear in Acts 18? The obvious answer is because they too had tongues of earthly human languages.

Tongues was present in all of the early churches. Corinth had a pride problem. People who got the gift were using it at inappropriate times.

Now if you compare Acts 2:4 with 1 Corinthians 14:21, you will see the same Greek words used. Some like to key in on unknown tongue as something not of this earth, a heavenly language. The “Unknown Language” is meant to describe that the language was unknown to the speaker from any time before. Another question arises, if these are heavenly languages, why, based on Paul’s comments, would they need to cease. They are heavenly, right? The reason Tongues will cease is because they are earthly languages.

1Corinthians 14:23 alludes to these tongues can be learned. The implication is confirmed in 1Corinthians 14:16.

1Corinthians 13:1 is used to prove the tongues can be of Angels. There is no Angel to Angel communication recorded. Every time the Angels speak, it is in a known language. Even when Isaiah got his view of heaven, the Angels were recorded in a human language.

Also, 1Corinthians 13:1 has Paul using the word “If”. “If I speak” is obviously Paul speaking hypothetically. 1Corinthians 13 is obviously about love.

I do disagree with those who hold that BIBLICAL TONGUES completely ceased. Many of us know people who actually spoke in a foreign tongue for telling about God to unbelieving Jews.

Tongues or the second blessing was a sign to unbelievers (Israel).

TEITZY
Apr 27th 2007, 11:08 AM
TEITZY,

From your reply, one might assume that tongues is something not found in the word of God. I'll let others decide if they think I believe tongues are the equivalent of the word of God or not.

The bottom line is that I'm OK if you don't believe in or seek the gifts of the Spirit. The problem is, you don't seem OK if I do believe in and seek the gifts of the Spirit.


I don't deny the gift of tongues as it is presented in the NT, I just believe that modern day tongues are not Biblical.

I believe in all the gifts, but the NT says we are given them by the Spirit at conversion, we don't have to "seek" them or 'learn' them as many insist today. As far as I'm concerned people can knock themselves out seeking gifts but I think there's greater benefit in developing the fruits of the Spirit instead.

Cheers
Leigh

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 27th 2007, 11:59 AM
TEITZY,

From your reply, one might assume that tongues is something not found in the word of God. I'll let others decide if they think I believe tongues are the equivalent of the word of God or not.

The bottom line is that I'm OK if you don't believe in or seek the gifts of the Spirit. The problem is, you don't seem OK if I do believe in and seek the gifts of the Spirit.It seems to me that your view point regarding gifts of the Spirit is based in some belief of a Spiritual "socialism" of sorts, and that those who are charismatic are somehow Spiritual "capitalists" (or Pharisees), with a sense of greed, self righteousness, or of a special deserving class as regards Spirituality.

The fact is, in my walk, which by far predominantly was without ever speaking in tongues, I am now more joyous, more Spiritual, and more knowledgable regarding the word of God then before speaking in tongues. Now I don't attribute this to tongues specifically, but rather a more open mind and heart to the things of the Spirit. I quit using the "it's not for me" mentality and sought after what God "had for me".

So I use myself as a measure and I can't speak for all of those down through the ages or for yourself. I am sure that there are some who have "come out of" tongues, etc. that can lend testimony to counter mine. However, I can check myself against scripture and I don't find myself or my experience contrary to it.

If our standard is what the Church has done for centuries, then wouldn't we all find ourselves basically to be Catholic? (NOTE: I am not slandering Catholics here, but rather only pointing out that Protestants have a history of departing from centuries of "tradition" when the change is based on scripture or when there is a lack of scriptural support for the tradition.)

God Bless!


Which is more accurate, a measuring stick that you purchase from a store, or one that you make on your own?

Both can be used to measure, yet how true would they be to each other?

My point is that the more I study the word of God, the more wretched I see myself and dependant upon Christ. As understanding comes in, I see the weakness in me proportionally to the wisdom of Salvation’s calling becoming obvious to me, from which it was once hidden…

So which is more accurate… a measuring stick that you purchase from a store, or one that you make on you own? Both measure, right? Both offer a good accurate reference to its past work, right? But are both interchangeably accurate to each other?

I side with TEITZY's understanding or yardstick if you will :) for the goal is submission to the evidence in holding on to the fruit of His Spirit, and not the submission to seek the gifts... This --- for me --- is a more desirable and humbling call...

For God's Glory...

jiggyfly
Apr 27th 2007, 12:00 PM
Very good job Revel, you made it very plain and easy to understand, here is an excerpt taken from "Handfuls On Purpose" by James Smith about the baptism of the HolySpirit.

"This annointing is not put upon man's flesh(the old self-seeking nature), for that would only minister to his pride, but upon the mitred head of the consecrated new creature in Christ Jesis, that no flesh should glory in His presence. The Spirit was not given until Christ was glorified, and until we are preparedto glorify Him atany cost we need not expect this baptism of the Spirit. And, doubtless, this is the chief reason why so many are without this great gift. Christ is not exalted to the throne of their heart."

watchinginawe
Apr 27th 2007, 12:49 PM
Which is more accurate, a measuring stick that you purchase from a store, or one that you make on your own?

Both can be used to measure, yet how true would they be to each other?

My point is that the more I study the word of God, the more wretched I see myself and dependant upon Christ. As understanding comes in, I see the weakness in me proportionally to the wisdom of Salvation’s calling becoming obvious to me, from which it was once hidden…

So which is more accurate… a measuring stick that you purchase from a store, or one that you make on you own? Both measure, right? Both offer a good accurate reference to its past work, right? But are both interchangeably accurate to each other?

I side with TEITZY's understanding or yardstick if you will :) for the goal is submission to the evidence in holding on to the fruit of His Spirit, and not the submission to seek the gifts... This --- for me --- is a more desirable and humbling call...

For God's Glory...I apologize RBG, but I have read that a few times and can't make a thing of it.

Since we're talking about grace here, (I think), it sure seems to me that you are offering some kind of personal testimony in the above to God's grace. Some kind of before, ... and after, and continuing, so, it seems that your post is completely contradictory to your point, or something. Like I said, I just can't seem to fathom your point. And to add, it doesn't seem like a real nice thought you are trying to offer here, so I suggest we just leave it where it is.

ps: In regards to the "measure" business, that was in reply to this:
Has tongues made believers more joyous, more spiritual, more knowledgable or more powerful than those who don't speak in tongues?I wouldn't presume to testify for others, only myself. I can only offer my experience as a measure and answer to that question. And as I already offered, it seems like you are doing the same thing in your post regarding yourself, but then fumble the point by saying that shouldn't be, or something like that. :dunno:

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 27th 2007, 01:17 PM
Hi WiA,

Wasn’t being negative at all towards you… netting it out, I was offering support to TEITZY’s comments and to your post and offering logic as to why for consideration.

Sorry it didn't come across in a more positive light... :blush:

godsgirl
Apr 28th 2007, 12:38 AM
:Yoda said........ "Tongues was a method to share Christ in a language that was unknown to the speaker, but known to the hearers. Every NT mention of tongues is a known language to men. The NT gift is not an angelic language."

The Bible says....

He who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God-indeed NO ONE understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.


There are many more points in your post-***edited by wia ***-but I gotta get ready to go on vacation tomorrow-so I'll discuss this when I get back, in the mean time-get into the Word.

spiritual jew
Apr 29th 2007, 02:08 AM
This subject brings a lot of thoughtful conversation amongst fellow Bible students.

I would offer this thought for now:

The New Testament teaches the validity of all the spiritual gifts including the gift of tongues. I think what has happened though, is that in our modern day and age it's possible that many of us may have different views about what the gift of tongues actually is-as well as the main reason this gift was given to the early Church.

I would suggest that in order to come to terms with what the gift of tongues actually is from a Biblical stance,one would also have to weigh the importance of why the gift of tongues was given. To understand one is to understand the other.

For example, the fact is often mentioned that the gift of tongues is for "signs" to the unbelieving multitudes.But even though such is true,this fact,I believe, should in no wise preclude or shroud over the initial purpose of the gift; that the gift of tongues (unknown languages) was also given to the early Church in order to enable it to witness the message of the Gospel to every place in the inhabitable world,most of which would be speaking a language that was foreign to the members of the Church.

The concept of the Gift of Tongues being given to communicate the Gospel in and unknown language as well as for a sign is what I understand where I see it for the first time in Acts 2.
And the people who received it and witnessed it seemed to me to be of the same impression:

"...a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language..."(vs 2)

To them, it was a sign, but more than that--it was for the purpose of communicating the gospel in an unknown language (literally the meaning of "tongue" or "tongues"in scripture).
But I think today a lot of the focus of that valid spiritual gift is put in the 'signs and wonders' catagory all too often to where an outer display of an unknown language, or babbling is supposed to convince people of the power of God.

I believe it's an often misunderstood, yet a very valid gift.Much like all the others though, this one seems to be the most counterfeited especially...Why? Because since it's seen as "normal" in many modern congregations for someone who "has the Holy Spirit" to be speaking in an unknown language (babbling in an unintelligable "language") in order to prove one has it, and this supposed form of an apparent sign goes many times without question in light of the Word of God,--and since no one can really tell if what the person supposedly displaying this gift is actually saying, it has unfortunately been able to masquerade as the Biblical gift without question.

jiggyfly
Apr 29th 2007, 11:57 AM
This subject brings a lot of thoughtful conversation amongst fellow Bible students.

I would offer this thought for now:

The New Testament teaches the validity of all the spiritual gifts including the gift of tongues. I think what has happened though, is that in our modern day and age it's possible that many of us may have different views about what the gift of tongues actually is-as well as the main reason this gift was given to the early Church.

I would suggest that in order to come to terms with what the gift of tongues actually is from a Biblical stance,one would also have to weigh the importance of why the gift of tongues was given. To understand one is to understand the other.

For example, the fact is often mentioned that the gift of tongues is for "signs" to the unbelieving multitudes.But even though such is true,this fact,I believe, should in no wise preclude or shroud over the initial purpose of the gift; that the gift of tongues (unknown languages) was also given to the early Church in order to enable it to witness the message of the Gospel to every place in the inhabitable world,most of which would be speaking a language that was foreign to the members of the Church.

The concept of the Gift of Tongues being given to communicate the Gospel in and unknown language as well as for a sign is what I understand where I see it for the first time in Acts 2.
And the people who received it and witnessed it seemed to me to be of the same impression:

"...a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language..."(vs 2)

To them, it was a sign, but more than that--it was for the purpose of communicating the gospel in an unknown language (literally the meaning of "tongue" or "tongues"in scripture).
But I think today a lot of the focus of that valid spiritual gift is put in the 'signs and wonders' catagory all too often to where an outer display of an unknown language, or babbling is supposed to convince people of the power of God.

I believe it's an often misunderstood, yet a very valid gift.Much like all the others though, this one seems to be the most counterfeited especially...Why? Because since it's seen as "normal" in many modern congregations for someone who "has the Holy Spirit" to be speaking in an unknown language (babbling in an unintelligable "language") in order to prove one has it, and this supposed form of an apparent sign goes many times without question in light of the Word of God,--and since no one can really tell if what the person supposedly displaying this gift is actually saying, it has unfortunately been able to masquerade as the Biblical gift without question.

Then can you explain this scripture in conjunction with your last statement?

1Corinthians 14:4
A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

Yodas_Prodigy
Apr 30th 2007, 05:23 PM
:Yoda said........ "Tongues was a method to share Christ in a language that was unknown to the speaker, but known to the hearers. Every NT mention of tongues is a known language to men. The NT gift is not an angelic language."

The Bible says....

He who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man, but to God-indeed NO ONE understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.


There are many more points in your post-***edited by wia ***-but I gotta get ready to go on vacation tomorrow-so I'll discuss this when I get back, in the mean time-get into the Word.

I hope that you are having a good vacation. I'll be glad to discuss this with you further when you get back. Feel free to PM me so that I know that you've returned.

Blessings

spiritual jew
Apr 30th 2007, 11:35 PM
Then can you explain this scripture in conjunction with your last statement?

1Corinthians 14:4
A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

Hi Jiggy; A few days ago I had written;
"and since no one can really tell if what the person supposedly displaying this gift is actually saying, it has unfortunately been able to masquerade as the Biblical gift without question." - meaning that since no one in that case would really know what the tongue speaker was saying,it wouldn't therefore be possible to distinguish whether or not the person is using the true gift of tongues or not. The point I was making was that if it becomes popular for such a thing to go unquestioned and untested so that it begins to appear normal for that to go on like it does in many congregations, this makes it the easiest gift to counterfeit in my opinion.

All the other spiritual gifts stand out:for example, someone claiming they have the gift of prophecy who's prophecy doesn't come true stands out like a soar thumb so to speak;whereas a gift like the gift of speaking in a foreign language if misunderstood to mean "unintelligable language"-can't really be tested by the Bible in order to see if it's the genuine gift or a fake.

jiggyfly
May 1st 2007, 02:00 AM
Hi Jiggy; A few days ago I had written;
"and since no one can really tell if what the person supposedly displaying this gift is actually saying, it has unfortunately been able to masquerade as the Biblical gift without question." - meaning that since no one in that case would really know what the tongue speaker was saying,it wouldn't therefore be possible to distinguish whether or not the person is using the true gift of tongues or not. The point I was making was that if it becomes popular for such a thing to go unquestioned and untested so that it begins to appear normal for that to go on like it does in many congregations, this makes it the easiest gift to counterfeit in my opinion.

All the other spiritual gifts stand out:for example, someone claiming they have the gift of prophecy who's prophecy doesn't come true stands out like a soar thumb so to speak;whereas a gift like the gift of speaking in a foreign language if misunderstood to mean "unintelligable language"-can't really be tested by the Bible in order to see if it's the genuine gift or a fake.

I think I understand what you are saying but that is a carnal way to judge things. For example concerning prophecy, consider all of the prophets in the old testament that gave prophecy about Christ. It did not come to pass in that generation so does that make it false? We probably do not share the same understanding of tongues or the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues. If tongues is just speaking in a human language how can it possible build or strengthen you in the Lord, like Paul states in the scripture I posted? Everything is discerned spiritually by the HolySpirit, He bears witness.

spiritual jew
May 1st 2007, 03:30 AM
I think I understand what you are saying but that is a carnal way to judge things. For example concerning prophecy, consider all of the prophets in the old testament that gave prophecy about Christ. It did not come to pass in that generation so does that make it false? We probably do not share the same understanding of tonguse or the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues. If tongues is just speaking in a human language how can it possible build or strengthen you in the Lord, like Paul states in the scripture I posted? Everything is discerned spiritually by the HolySpirit, He bears witness.

I think a carnal way to judge things would be to accept something at face value without bringing it to the test of the Scriptures, which I'm definately a proponent of,and that I'm also actually favoring in my reply.

When for example, one is assumed to be speaking in tongues without understanding that this spiritual gift is for the building of of the person speaking, as well as the preaching of the gospel in a foreign language and thus building up the church-and the same person is simply babbling, the test of the Bible is what actually exposes that as not being the true gift of tongues.

My faith teaches me to examine every doctrine,every practice,and to "test all things, holding fast to that which is good";and to "try the spirits whether they be of God"--and the very point I actually made was to do exactly that with the gift of tongues as with any other spiritual gift,or teaching about any spiritual gift.

If I'm understanding the other part of your statement about a prophecy that doesn't come to pass perhaps being experienced at a different time while using examples of old testament prophecies concerning Christ in order to apparently sustain a direct violation of the Biblical principle that a prophecy has to come to pass in order to be of God is actually a "carnal" way to judge something in my opinion..

To substantiate that opinion, when the Bible tells me "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him"- then according to my faith, I am to believe the Bible and that only and am to ignore the presumptuously spoken false prophecy and the prophet speaking it, because that person would not be speaking on behalf of God.

As far as prophecies concerning Christ are concerned, not one of them failed and all of them are affirmed in Jesus Christ--in His life, death, ministry and resurrection,so to use fulfilled prophecies in Christ in order to bypass or excuse a false prophecy coming from somebody else would be to me not a good example of maintaining the Bible and the Bible only as the standard of judgment according to my faith. That there are many congregations who are more attracted to an outward display of signs and wonders and what many understand to be "the gift of tongues",etc - rather than a "thus saith the Lord" from the Word of God, is exactly the very concern I intended to draw out in my former post. To do such is to "judge" in a "carnal" way,and it is that which my faith is diametrically opposed to as well as the Scriptures.

jiggyfly
May 1st 2007, 11:08 AM
I think a carnal way to judge things would be to accept something at face value without bringing it to the test of the Scriptures, which I'm definately a proponent of,and that I'm also actually favoring in my reply.

When for example, one is assumed to be speaking in tongues without understanding that this spiritual gift is for the building of of the person speaking, as well as the preaching of the gospel in a foreign language and thus building up the church-and the same person is simply babbling, the test of the Bible is what actually exposes that as not being the true gift of tongues.

My faith teaches me to examine every doctrine,every practice,and to "test all things, holding fast to that which is good";and to "try the spirits whether they be of God"--and the very point I actually made was to do exactly that with the gift of tongues as with any other spiritual gift,or teaching about any spiritual gift.

If I'm understanding the other part of your statement about a prophecy that doesn't come to pass perhaps being experienced at a different time while using examples of old testament prophecies concerning Christ in order to apparently sustain a direct violation of the Biblical principle that a prophecy has to come to pass in order to be of God is actually a "carnal" way to judge something in my opinion..

To substantiate that opinion, when the Bible tells me "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him"- then according to my faith, I am to believe the Bible and that only and am to ignore the presumptuously spoken false prophecy and the prophet speaking it, because that person would not be speaking on behalf of God.

As far as prophecies concerning Christ are concerned, not one of them failed and all of them are affirmed in Jesus Christ--in His life, death, ministry and resurrection,so to use fulfilled prophecies in Christ in order to bypass or excuse a false prophecy coming from somebody else would be to me not a good example of maintaining the Bible and the Bible only as the standard of judgment according to my faith. That there are many congregations who are more attracted to an outward display of signs and wonders and what many understand to be "the gift of tongues",etc - rather than a "thus saith the Lord" from the Word of God, is exactly the very concern I intended to draw out in my former post. To do such is to "judge" in a "carnal" way,and it is that which my faith is diametrically opposed to as well as the Scriptures.

I guess I'm having a hard time with understanding how you can use the scriptures to tell if a person who speaks in an unknown language to you is doing it falsely. Do you have some kinda spirtual tongues translator book???


Secondly concerning the prophecies of Christ in the old testament, how many people that lived in the time when the prophecy was uttered lived to see Christ born in the flesh. If this is your gage how much time after a prophecy is uttered does it have till it comes to pass before you judge it false?

Sorry but I will continue to use both Word and Spirit to discern and speaking in an unkown tongue helps me with this process.

godsgirl
May 3rd 2007, 09:29 PM
Just wanted to let you know, I'm back. Vacation was nice-but a little tiring-we have two mentally/physically handicapped adult foster "children" and we went on an airplane to Disney World.

Speaking in tongues-with interpretation is just like all the other Spiritual Gifts mentioned in the Word-they must be judged-and those around being in the Spirit will know. Praying in tongues cannot be faked-anymore than praying in your native language can. Since it is for God's ears-not mans, then why would you even want to? Anyway, it's just like anything else in our walk.

I just wanted to add this little article I found on the web-

The prayer language that comes to a Christian with the infilling of the Holy Spirit is not the gift of tongues that may operate when Christians assemble themselves together.

"Tongues" is a spiritual language that comes from our spirit man by way of the Holy Spirit. It bypasses the natural mind and provides an untainted "heavenly language" to our Father. It is meant for His ears only. It is a baby step in experiencing the supernatural resulting from an act of faith. Jude reveals one of its wonderful benefits when he says, "beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost" (Jude 20). Praise God!! It builds us up in faith!!

1 Corinthians 14:2 says, "he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." And in verse 4, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself."

Three witnesses:-

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and (all) began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4) - here we have the original pattern.

"on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues" (Acts 10:45-6) - there was no other way for them to know they had received.

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues" (Acts 19:6) - these Ephesian disciples received the identical Bible evidence as the apostles had at the beginning. In addition they also prophesied.

It is of no small matter that the first physical evidence of a believer's surrender to the Holy Spirit should come from the tongue. "Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell...the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:5-8).

In a sermon preached on May 27, 1922 Smith Wigglesworth, who had all nine gifts of the Spirit operating in his ministry, said, "For many years I have thrown out a challenge to any person who can prove to me that he has the baptism without speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance - to prove it by the Word that he has been baptized in the Holy Ghost without the Bible evidence, but so far no one has accepted the challenge. I only say this because so many were like I was, they have a rigid idea that they have received the baptism without the Bible evidence. The Lord Jesus wants those who preach the Word to have the Word in evidence. Don't be misled by anything else. Have a Bible proof for all you have, and then you will be in a place where no man can move you." (taken from THE EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT published by the Pentecostal Evangel)

Praying in the Holy Spirit, there is nothing like it!! Pure Holy Spirit utterances, secrets between me and my Father!!

Love in Jesus,

Possum
May 4th 2007, 03:39 AM
Hi, I'm new to this forum. This is my first time to post a message. I've been reading with interest this discussion about speaking in tongues. I have been very confused for many years about this subject. Please, anyone who can help me I would greatly appreciate it. I am going to ask a couple of questions but please understand I am not trying to insult anyone or offend anyone, I'm sincerely seeking an answer to this dilemma.

I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior over 25 years ago. I have never spoken in tongues, but I have had an open mind and have asked the Lord to baptise me in the Holy Spirit. Nothing happened. I laid on my bed with my mouth open, just waiting for the tongues to come, and nothing happened. I prayed sincerely to receive this, and I never have.

When I listen to people speaking in tongues today it reminds me of the "clanging symbols"....It is hard for me to understand how these repetitive syllables could be of God. Bucka Bucka Hambala Shambala Boshoto....it just doesn't sound "real" to me. It seems like God, in all His majesty, the Creator of the Universe, could have come up with something better than Bucka Bucka. I am not meaning that in a derogitory way. It is just a question I have.

I am really scared. Doesn't it say in the Bible that unless you are baptised by water and by the Holy Spirit that you can't enter Heaven? If I don't speak in tongues does that mean I don't have the Holy spirit and I can't go to Heaven? A friend of mine told me that even if I don't speak in tongues I am still saved but I just don't have all the tools God has for me in order to have a better prayer life and a closer relationship with Him. But why hasn't God given me this? I prayed sincerely and asked Him if this was His will for me to please give it to me, and He didn't. Or maybe I didn't receive it for some reason.

Please, can you tell me what I should do? Do I need to keep trying to speak in tongues, or is it okay not to do that? I want to be closer to God and have the best relationship with Him that I can have. Thanks to everyone who answers!

SIG
May 4th 2007, 05:31 AM
Mention of Smith Wigglesworth two posts above brought me, eventually, here:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/strange2.htm

cwb
May 4th 2007, 09:27 AM
I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior over 25 years ago. I have never spoken in tongues, but I have had an open mind and have asked the Lord to baptise me in the Holy Spirit. Nothing happened. I laid on my bed with my mouth open, just waiting for the tongues to come, and nothing happened. I prayed sincerely to receive this, and I never have.



When the apostles in Acts spoke in tongues, they spoke as the spirit gave the utterance.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

They did the speaking but as the Spirit of God inspired. The Spirit did not take possession of them. They moved their tongue and lips. God gave the words as they moved.


When I listen to people speaking in tongues today it reminds me of the "clanging symbols"....It is hard for me to understand how these repetitive syllables could be of God. Bucka Bucka Hambala Shambala Boshoto....it just doesn't sound "real" to me. It seems like God, in all His majesty, the Creator of the Universe, could have come up with something better than Bucka Bucka. I am not meaning that in a derogitory way. It is just a question I have.


I don't take that in a derogatory way. Speaking in tongues is speaking in another language mysteries to God. When speaking in English, we don't use the same syllables over and over again. Sounds to me that the people you heard speaking in tongues like this may have started out speaking in tongues but then guit believing to recieve the words from God and started merely repeating words they heard themselves say. I know when I speak in tongues, I am not merely repeating the same syllables over and over. Though I do not understand the language I am speaking, I can hear that it is a lnaguage and not the same syllable being repeated over and over.

By the way people are not suppose to be speaking in tongues in church if there is no interpretation. Was there an interpretation given from the people you heard speaking in tongues?


I am really scared. Doesn't it say in the Bible that unless you are baptised by water and by the Holy Spirit that you can't enter Heaven? If I don't speak in tongues does that mean I don't have the Holy spirit and I can't go to Heaven? A friend of mine told me that even if I don't speak in tongues I am still saved but I just don't have all the tools God has for me in order to have a better prayer life and a closer relationship with Him. But why hasn't God given me this? I prayed sincerely and asked Him if this was His will for me to please give it to me, and He didn't. Or maybe I didn't receive it for some reason.


Remember I Tim 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


If you have done Romans 10:9 you are saved:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Speaking in tongues is an evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If you do not speak on tongues, it does not mean you don't have the Spirit living inside you. It just means you have not manifested it yet (by way of speaking in tongues. You may have manifested it in other ways). There are many benefits to speaking in tongues though.

VerticalReality
May 4th 2007, 12:32 PM
Mention of Smith Wigglesworth two posts above brought me, eventually, here:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/strange2.htm

It's interesting how these sort of sites enjoy finding "deception" in the church, but yet I never see them at your local baptist church that is teaching that the gifts of the Spirit and the power of God is no longer available today and it was only available to those living during the apostolic age. That is just as much deception as any other, but you never really see that stuff on these sort of sites.

I also find it interesting that this site enjoyed pointing out alleged sin in the lives of some of those preachers yet I didn't see them volunteering any of their own. Pretty slanderous and hypocritical if you ask me. Maybe I should start my own website entitled "Deception from the folks claiming to find deception in the church".

Possum
May 4th 2007, 12:49 PM
Thank you to all who have answered my question. I have been so afraid that I might have committed the "unforgivable sin" by not speaking in tongues as maybe this meant I have refused to allow the Holy Spirit to work in my life. I did have an experience once where a girl spoke in tongues in front of me (we were alone in a room), and then she told me it was "my turn." I felt a sort of "urge" to speak, and something felt like it was coming up from inside me, but I was scared and wouldn't let it happen. I had heard other people saying speaking in tongues is of the devil and was not for today. So I was confused and very scared. Now for over 25 years I have been afraid that I really messed up back then and now maybe even my salvation is not certain.

Thank you to everyone!

godsgirl
May 4th 2007, 02:24 PM
I just wanted to give you a quick reply and let you know that speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit baptism-just like getting wet is evidence of water baptism. Not speaking in tongues, or not being baptised in water-does NOT mean that you are not saved-just that you have not yet taken this step. Do not believe those that tell you, "speaking in tongues is of the devil"-I served satan for 28 years and I never spoke in tongues even once. Jesus baptised me in the Holy Spirit after nearly a year of prayer-I don't know why it takes some of us so long-it is there for all who will accept it-just like salvation.
If you have given your life to Jesus Christ=you are saved, period.

Revel
May 9th 2007, 06:28 PM
God bless you all and many thanks to fellow posters who gave words of encouragement to Possum.

Possum, I invite you to write me directly at XXXXXXXXX

I would love to chat with you...


SPIRITUAL GIFTS: THE FIRST CENTURY/THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY

To those of you following this who have not spoken in tongues… and believe that spiritual gifts ended in the first century…

Perhaps we will never see eye-to-eye on the subject of the Holy Spirit, but allow me to begin where we agree:

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”(Rom. 1:17)

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Rom. 10:9, 10)

You and I are born-again—filled with the indwelling Holy Spirit—because… we believed literally what is literally stated.

This is where I am coming from: We as members of the body of Christ have the right to believe… what is literally stated. It is in this manner that we as faithful stewards of the Gospel can reap the greatest blessings in this life… and the next.

Without question, the Scriptures speak of the gift of the Holy Spirit and they speak of spiritual gifts.

As we know, the verses often quoted to prove spiritual gifts ended are found in Chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor. 13:8-12 KJV)

What is “perfect” that shall “come”?

Some who believe that tongues ended declare that “perfect” means the “Scriptures” that came into being in the first century—stating that once the Scriptures arrived, Heaven deliberately removed spiritual gifts.

Is this what divine revelation states?

BACKGROUND

“BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

This verse has been “interpreted” four different ways. Here is what the NIV scholars state in the NIV Study Bible:

“Some refer the verse to the return of Christ, others to the death of a Christian, others to the maturity (or establishment) of the church . . ., still others to the completion of the canon of the NT Scripture. Verse 12, however, seems to indicate that Paul is here speaking of Christ’s second coming.”

Verse 12:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then FACE TO FACE: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor. 13:12 KJV)

“Face to face”…

“Face” means, “the part towards, at or around the eye; hence, . . . the face, visage, countenance,” (E. W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p. 230).

In essence, “face” means a literal “face.”

The only way to render “face to face” is to have each “face” refer to a literal “face”: Paul is referring to the “face” of the church witnessing the face of our Lord Jesus Christ—when he comes for us in the clouds.

This is what the NIV scholars are referring to in their statement: “Verse 12, however, seems to indicate that Paul is here speaking of Christ’s second coming.”

What is “perfect” that shall “come”?

Paul answered that for us in the immediate context (verse 12), and in the greater context (Chapters 1 and 12-15): Christ is the one who is perfect and spiritual gifts and signs will end he comes for us.

Why?

Paul explained it.

Firstly, Christ is perfect:

AND BEING MADE PERFECT, HE [CHRIST] BECAME THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. (Heb. 5:9 KJV)

When that which is perfect, Christ, comes for us, then spiritual gifts will cease.

Why?

They will no longer be needed.

We shall be like Christ.

But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:2, 3)

[N]ow I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor. 13:12 KJV)

The NIV scholars state this about Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 13:12: “The Christian will know the Lord to the fullest extent possible for a finite being, similar to the way the Lord knows the Christian fully and infinitely. This will not be true until the Lord returns.”

In other words, the immediate context of Paul’s statement about what is “perfect” is the return of our Lord—not the completion of the Scriptures.

The foundation—and greater context—of Chapter 13 is Chapter 1. Chapter 1 also speaks of Christ coming for us—not the completion of the Scriptures.

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:7, 8)

We have the right to believe what is literally stated about spiritual gifts and Christ being revealed…

We as Christ’s church dare not ignore or dismiss… how Paul introduced us to spiritual gifts… and how they shall not end… until our Lord comes for us… and is revealed to us.

In essence, the immediate context and the greater context of Corinthians are in perfect harmony… and they answer the question of what is perfect: Christ.

Who in the body of Christ has the authority to dismiss the divine harmony of divine revelation?

How can Paul contradict himself in his own letter?

How can any verse in Bible contradict this revelation?

It’s impossible…

Any “interpretation” that contradicts Paul’s opening statement about “spiritual gifts” and “our Lord Jesus Christ” being “revealed” contradicts Scripture; this includes that belief that spiritual gifts ended when the Scriptures were completed in the first century.

Next:

THE GREATER CONTEXT OF 1 CORINTHIANS
PAUL’S LETTERS: THE REPEATING PATTERN

God bless,

revel

Revel
May 9th 2007, 06:38 PM
THE GREATER CONTEXT OF 1 CORINTHIANS

Heaven works with us, and asks us to “walk” in a spiritual manner, until we are gathered in the clouds. This is what Paul revealed to us.

CHAPTER 1

PAUL’S OPENING STATEMENT: SPIRITUAL GIFTS
“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift…”

CHAPTERS 12-14

PAUL EXPOUNDING UPON HIS OPENING STATEMENT: THE GREATER CONTEXT OF CORINTHIANS
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues. (1 Cor. 14:5)

[F]orbid not to speak with tongues. (1 Cor. 14:39 KJV)

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. (1 Cor. 14:22)

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself. (1 Cor. 14:5 KJV)

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. (1 Cor. 14:2)

Follow after charity [God’s love], and desire spiritual gifts. (1 Cor. 14:1 KJV)

[B]ut whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (1 Cor. 13:8, 9 KJV)

CHAPTER 1

PAUL’S OPENING STATEMENTS: OUR LORD REVEALED
“[A]s you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

CHAPTERS 13 AND 15

PAUL EXPOUNDING UPON HIS OPENING STATEMENTS: THE GREATER CONTEXT OF CORINTHIANS
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. (1 Cor. 15:22, 23 KJV)

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51, 52)

But when that which is perfect [Christ] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13:10 KJV)

[B]ut then face to face [with Christ]: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor. 13:12 KJV)

PAUL’S LETTERS: THE REPEATING PATTERN

Compare Philippians with 1 Corinthians.

Heaven works with us, and asks us to “walk” in a spiritual manner, until we are gathered in the clouds—just like Paul stated in Corinthians.

PHILIPPIANS

CHAPTER 1

PAUL’S OPENING STATEMENTS
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil. 1:6 KJV)

CHAPTER 3

PAUL EXPOUNDING UPON HIS OPENING STATEMENTS: THE GREATER CONTEXT OF PHILIPPIANS
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. . . . For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil. 3:17, 20, 21 KJV)

Here, Paul specifically states, “be followers together of me.”

What did Paul state in Corinthians?

“I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.”

“I would like every one of you to speak in tongues.”

Paul is our example.

Why would someone who contradicts Paul be our example?

Here is another letter.


1 THESSALONIANS

CHAPTER 1

PAUL’S OPENING STATEMENTS
And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. . . . And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thess. 1:6, 7, 10 KJV)

CHAPTER 4

PAUL EXPOUNDING UPON HIS OPENING STATEMENTS: THE GREATER CONTEXT OF THESSALONIANS
That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing. . . . For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:12, 15-17 KJV)

1 Corinthians, Philippians, and 1 Thessalonians speak to us in a parallel manner: We as the body of Christ are to soak up all of Christ’s revelation to Paul, and follow Paul as our example, and walk the talk—which includes, “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts”…until our perfect Lord comes for us and we see him face-to-face!!

If you currently do not speak in tongues, my prayer for you is that you will be set free from the belief that spiritual gifts ended in the first century, and that you too will speak forth this glorious sign that our Lord has given us: “tongues.”

[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues. (Mark 16:17)

There is no “first century” expiration date on Christ’s prophecy.

God bless.

revel

Revel
May 25th 2007, 02:09 PM
THE APOSTLE PETER: THE BOOK OF ACTS

For those of you who have not spoken in tongues, consider the experience of the apostle Peter—and let him be an inspiration to you.

Peter, who was once encased in fear, was delivered from fear.

That was Peter’s experience—and he set others free too. That’s the Book of Acts.

What was the experience of Peter in Acts?

Prior to delving into this, what was Peter’s state of mind before the day of Pentecost?

Fifty days prior to Pentecost, Peter had been hiding behind locked doors… full of fear…

“On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews. . . .” (John 20:19)

During this time in Peter’s life, he had even denied knowing the Lord; he had nothing to say publicly concerning him. With the Crucifixion of Jesus, Peter and the others had been overcome with grief and loss.

But our Lord appeared to Peter and the others, and on the day of the ascension, Christ gave them a promise:

[Y]ou will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you. (Acts 1:8)

On Pentecost, Christ infused Peter with spiritual power from on high, and Peter crossed a divine threshold: he completely changed from a man full of fear to a man of great confidence and faith. Only one thing could have changed him from within: “power.” Christ filled him with “power,” the Holy Spirit… and Peter manifested this “power” by speaking in tongues… and Peter began teaching boldly in the name of Christ.

On Pentecost, Peter had a new set of eyes with which to view life. The apostle looked quite differently on those whom he once feared when he gave the crowd prophetic knowledge:

“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. . . .
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:22, 37–39)

“Brothers, what shall we do?”

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

This question and Peter’s response are just as alive and real today as they were some two thousand years ago. The promises and prophecies of Heaven are unchanging.

Imagine what could have been going through the mind of Peter. Ten days earlier, he had watched Christ ascend off the planet. Now Jerusalem was filled with the presence of Heaven, and it would overflow into many bloodlines.

As documented in Acts 10, Peter took the gospel of immortality to the Romans. Upon his arrival at the home of a Roman soldier, Peter expounded upon the will of Heaven.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. (Acts 10:44–46)

After Peter taught the words of Christ, the Romans manifested the sign of “tongues.” Peter did not deny anyone entrance into the kingdom of God, nor did Peter forbid anyone to speak in tongues.

This is the New Covenant that Christ gave to every nation, to every bloodline. This is our precedent. This is our example.

This example in Acts is just as alive and real today as it was two thousand years ago. The promises and prophecies are unchanging for the church.

Didn’t we make Jesus our Lord too?

Didn’t we receive “power” too?

We in the body of the Christ have the God-given right to believe—and personally fulfill—Christ’s prophecy about “tongues” given on the day of the ascension.

Acts 10 speaks to us today just like Acts 2. Christ’s revelation to Paul reveals to us that the Book of Acts is not just a history book, but that it speaks to us today, and is to be carried forward until Christ returns: “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:5). “Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed” (1 Cor. 1:7).

Just as we as members of the body of Christ shower one another with blessings, or Lord desires to do likewise from Heaven—and the sign of “tongues” yields blessings.

How many of you following this… who have not spoken in tongues… would like to “speak forth” this divine sign and know what it means to be spiritually edified?

Christ’s revelation reveals that you can speak forth the same sign as spoken by Peter and by those at the house of Cornelius: the divine sign of Christ within, speaking with divinely inspired languages.

You have the gift of the Holy Spirit… and the blessings are intended to continue…

Why should we allow any religious ancestor or any modern-day “authority” to turn us against the example of an apostle?

God bless.

revel

Revel
May 25th 2007, 02:26 PM
CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PAUL: 1 CORINTHIANS

Christ will keep us “strong to the end.”

How?

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end [Greek: telos], so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:7, 8)

According to Paul’s letter, how does Christ keep us “strong to the end”?

What is the immediate context?

“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift.”

How will Christ keep us “strong to the end”?

Paul explained it—in the greater context of his letter.

CHAPTERS 12-14

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
(1 Cor. 12:7 KJV)

We as the body of Christ—during the age of grace—“profit” from the gifts of the Holy Spirit as stated by Paul (verses 8-11 in Chapter 12).

For example, now, during this present time, prophecy strengthens us in the following manner:

But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. (1 Cor. 14:3)

Now, during this present time, “tongues” strengthens us in the following manner:

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself. (1 Cor. 14:5 KJV)

Paul specifically identified the strength provided by “prophecy” and “tongues”—and he provided specific direction regarding each gift:

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (1 Cor. 14:39 KJV)

How else does our Lord keep us strong during the age of grace?

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (1 Cor. 12:28 KJV)

“Tongues” is included in what God “set” in the “church.”

What earthly “authority” has the right to “remove” what God set in the church?

For those of us in the body of Christ who hold to the supreme authority of Scripture, Paul’s foundation of truth—about gifts—stands as given:

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:7 KJV)

“So that ye come behind in no gift.”

“No” means “not one.”

In other words, not one gift (as spoken of in Chapters 12-14) shall we lack as we wait for the coming of Christ (not the coming of the Scriptures).

Any “interpretation” of Paul’s letter that eliminates even one gift from the church contradicts Paul.

If two gifts ended in the first century, then Paul contradicted himself, because then we would “come behind” in two of the gifts—while we wait for the coming of Christ.

What earthly “authority” has the right to “remove” “tongues”?

What earthly “authority” has the right forbid members of the church to speak to our God in the Spirit?

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. (1 Cor. 14:2)

Our God has given us the ability to speak directly to him—perfectly—in the Spirit.

Who would want to bring this to an end (during this present time)?

Heaven?

Or Satan?

Now, in this present time, we are strengthened and blessed by “tongues.” However, at “the end,” we will no longer need to speak in tongues because we will speak to our Lord face-to-face.

What exactly is “the end”?

It is the Greek word “telos.”

“Telos” means, “the fulfillment or completion of anything . . . . It denotes strickly, not the ending of a departed state, but, the arrival of a complete or perfect one,” (E. W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p. 248).

Christ is the one who keeps us strong to the “telos”… and he also is the one who brings in the “telos”—this perfect state—at his coming. This is precisely what Paul is saying later in his letter, when he contrasts “now” with “then”:

For NOW [during this present time] we see through a glass, darkly; but THEN [at the telos… at the arrival of the perfect state brought about by the coming of that which is perfect] face to face [with Christ, who is then revealed]: NOW I know in part; but THEN [at the telos] shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor. 13:12 KJV)

“Now,” our Lord intercedes and helps to keep us strong with spiritual gifts, but “then,” at the “telos,” we will no longer need the intercession and blessing of spiritual gifts and signs, for the Lord himself will be in our presence, face-to-face.

THEN
The foundation of Paul’s truth about “then” was first revealed to us in Chapter 1. “Then” refers back to the “telos.” “Then” is also associated with “face-to-face” (a literal face), and it is associated with fully knowing as we are fully known by God.

NOW
The foundation of Paul’s truth about “now” was first revealed to us in Chapter 1. “Now” refers to the time that Christ keeps us “strong”: this present time.

“NOW” AND “THEN”
Contrasting “now” (this present time) and “then” (the fulfillment of end-time prophecies) is found in another one of Paul’s letters: 2 Thessalonians.

2 THESSALONIANS: “NOW” AND “THEN”

Who [the Antichrist] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who NOW [during this present time] letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And THEN [in the future; at the end time] shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. (2 Thess. 2:4-8 KJV)

The Greek word for “now” in 1 Corinthians 13:12 is the same as found here in 2 Thessalonians 2:7. It is “arti” and means, “(this) present.” Paul is specifically addressing this present time—which precedes the end time.

The Greek word for ‘then” in 1 Corinthians 13:12 is the same as found here in 2 Thessalonians 2:8. It is “tote” and means, “at the time . . . (of the past or future).” In the context of Paul’s letters, “then” is contrasted with “now” and must refer to the future. What shall happen “then” is still future tense.

Now… back to the verse that has been the subject of much debate:

“But when that which is PERFECT [Greek: telios] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

The word “perfect” is in question. The Greek word is “telios.”

Here is the definition of “telios”:

“Complete, perfect, full, wanting nothing, with special reference to the end for which it was intended,” (E. W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p. 579).”

1 Corinthians 13:10 has been debated because of the multiple opinions about “telios.” In this one sentence, Paul doesn’t definitely state what is “perfect.”

So… to whom do we look to find the answer?

Paul.

What is “telios”?

The root word for “telios” is “telos”—and it is found in Paul’s opening statements about spiritual gifts.

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end [Greek: telos], so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:7, 8)

Christ will keep us strong to the “end”: “telos.”

Paul’s reference to “telios” (what is complete) expounds upon the “telos” (the arrival of a complete, spiritually perfect, state)—which is ushered in by he who is perfect, Christ, on the “day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

In essence, “telos” is associated with Christ—his personal presence—that we will see, face-to-face, and “telios” is associated with Christ—his personal presence—that we will see, face-to-face.

Paul is assuring the Corinthians (and us) that not one spiritual gift will end until Christ brings the perfect state at the “telos” when we see him face-to-face.

Tragically, Paul’s letter is used to teach the complete opposite regarding “tongues” and prophecy—believing they ended in the first century.

In 1 Corinthians, the “telos” and “telios” have no relevance to the first century or the Scriptures being completed, nor does “then” have any relevance to the first century. “Then” is not “now”—not yet.

OUR RELIGIOUS ANCESTORS: WHAT THEY TOLD US TO BELIEVE

There is a belief circulating in the body of Christ that “tongues” ended.

This belief relies upon an assumption that “perfect” means the “Scriptures” that came into being in the first century—stating that once the Scriptures arrived, Heaven deliberately removed spiritual gifts. To support this position, we are told we must look to James (1:25) to understand what Paul is saying about “perfect.”

Is that what Paul expected the Corinthians to do… look to James?

The key to understanding “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13 is found in the same letter, Corinthians, in the immediate and greater context—not James.

Look at what some of our religious ancestors expected us to believe:

1. To answer what is “perfect” in Paul’s letter to the church, we must look to a completely different writer—James—who wrote to a completely different audience, the twelve tribes… and come up with the conclusion that “perfect” means the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 13… even though in Corinthians, Paul never explicitly states this.

2. We are also expected to take the “word” of an “authority” who has never spoken in tongues, and we are expected to follow his or her example… and not the example of the apostles (in the Book of Acts).

3. In essence, we are expected to believe that sections of 1 Corinthians, Acts, and the prophecy given by our Lord on the day of his ascension are no longer valid in our walk with our Lord.

Where in the New Testament does it specifically state:

“When the Scriptures are come, then two spiritual gifts will end.”

Nowhere…

Yet, all throughout the New Testament, the apostles definitively state that Christ will come for us, and Paul definitively states, and desires, that we not lack any spiritual gift as we wait for our Lord to be revealed.

THE NEW TESTAMENT: PAUL, JAMES, AND JOHN

Christ, and the perfect state, shall arrive for us, “then,” not the Scriptures. It is Christ we will see face-to-face, “then,” not the Scriptures.

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our LORD JESUS CHRIST AT HIS COMING [Greek: parousia]? (1 Thess 2:19 KJV)

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST with all his saints. (1 Thess. 3:13 KJV)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15-17 KJV)

Now we beseech you, brethren, BY THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and by our gathering together unto him. (2 Thess 2:1 KJV)

Be patient therefore, brethren, UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (James 5:7, 8 KJV)

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and NOT BE ASHAMED BEFORE HIM AT HIS COMING. (1 John 2:28 KJV)

“Coming” is translated from the Greek word, “parousia,” which means “advent, return, coming, presence.” This is precisely what Paul referred to throughout his letters to the church—and 1 Corinthians 13 is not an exception.

…Back to this section of Scripture:

“Charity never faileth: BUT WHETHER THERE BE PROPHECIES, THEY SHALL FAIL; WHETHER THERE BE TONGUES, THEY SHALL CEASE; WHETHER THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.”

For those of you following this who believe two gifts ended in the first century, why not address the following?

TONGUES/PROPHECY/INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES

If only two gifts ended in the first century (“tongues” and “prophecy”), then this means that the other gifts are still valid in our day and time—which means the interpretation of tongues is still valid.

If “tongues” ended in the first century, then what would be the point of keeping the interpretation of tongues, if there are no “tongues” to interpret?

KNOWLEDGE/TONGUES/PROPHECY

For those of you who believe two gifts ended, you apparently separate “knowledge” from “prophecy” and “tongues.” Paul speaks of three subjects that shall end, not two.

“Charity never faileth: but whether there be PROPHECIES, they shall fail; whether there be TONGUES, they shall cease; whether there be KNOWLEDGE, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.”

How do you refer to “knowledge” in the context of Paul’s letter?

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, TO ANOTHER THE MESSAGE OF KNOWLEDGE BY MEANS OF THE SAME SPIRIT, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, TO ANOTHER PROPHECY, to another distinguishing between spirits, TO ANOTHER SPEAKING IN DIFFERENT KINDS OF TONGUES, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (1 Cor. 12:7-11)

SPIRITUAL GIFTS

What does Paul’s statement about spiritual gifts mean to you in your walk with God?

“Follow after charity [God’s love], and desire spiritual gifts.” (1 Cor. 14:1 KJV)

Truly, I am interested in your perspective.

God bless.

revel

Revel
May 31st 2007, 01:12 PM
For those of you following this who have never spoken in tongues, and would like to speak forth the glory of this sign, take heart, the preaching hasn’t stopped and the signs haven’t stopped…

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. WHOEVER BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. AND THESE SIGNS WILL ACCOMPANY THOSE WHO BELIEVE: In my name they will drive out demons; THEY WILL SPEAK IN NEW TONGUES; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, AND THE LORD WORKED WITH THEM AND CONFIRMED HIS WORD BY THE SIGNS THAT ACCOMPANIED IT. (Mark 16:15-20)

Our Lord still works with us and the signs still continue.

What is the central theme given to us by our Lord on the day of his ascension?

Believe…

To be continued…

God bless.

revel

Revel
Jun 6th 2007, 09:33 PM
GOD’S PEOPLE: HISTORY, PROPHECY, AND OUR REALITY

Exactly fifty days after God’s divine intervention at the Red Sea, God met with the Israelites at Mount Sinai. This event foreshadowed the birth of the church, the descent of the Holy Spirit, and tongues of fire.

[T]here was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. MOUNT SINAI WAS COVERED WITH SMOKE, BECAUSE THE LORD DESCENDED ON IT IN FIRE. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently, and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him. (Exod. 19:16–19)

As God communed with his people on Mount Sinai fifty days after the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, so God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within the disciples fifty days after the Resurrection of his Son. The holy day that marks God communing with his people is the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost).

As God demonstrated—and continues to demonstrate—his power via the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts, so God demonstrated his power to the Israelites during the Exodus.

This descent of God on Mount Sinai “in fire” foreshadowed the descent of the Holy Spirit—the sign of which was “tongues of fire” (Acts 2:3).

The significance of “tongues” cannot be underestimated. It is God’s power (via the Holy Spirit) personally manifested in our lives. It is no wonder that we are edified when we speak in tongues.

The Israelites could not speak in divinely inspired languages, but our God has granted us that ability by way of the Holy Spirit within. It all began on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost).

Pentecost represented the fulfillment of what God had prophesied via his prophets Isaiah and Joel. This is what God longed for: to dwell within us via the Holy Spirit, and to enable us to manifest his power, personally.

Hundreds of years before Christ, Joel foretold of the day God would pour out his Spirit upon flesh and blood. Joel recorded the very words spoken by the Almighty: “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. . . . Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days” (Joel 2:28, 29).

On Pentecost this prophecy came to pass; this is the prophecy that Peter referenced on that holy day (Acts 2:16-21).

This holy day of Pentecost represented the fulfillment of not only Joel’s prophecy but that of Isaiah as well: “With foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, ‘This is the resting place, let the weary rest’; and, ‘This is the place of repose’—but they would not listen” (Isa. 28:11, 12).

This is the prophecy that Paul referenced (1 Cor. 14:21).

God said that he would speak to his people with “foreign lips” and “strange tongues.” On Pentecost, this prophecy of new languages was fulfilled. Thereby, God brought souls into the kingdom of Christ, and within it, brought them to a place of confidence (“repose”).

Yet for all of this, Isaiah foretold that there would be followers of Moses who would not embrace even a supernatural sign from God. On Pentecost, some devout followers of the Old Covenant even accused Peter of being drunk when he spoke in tongues.

And to this day… the accusations just continue… Tragic.

On the holy day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowd that they had heard divine prophecy fulfilled in their ears.

Today, we can personally fulfill the prophecy of our Lord:

[T]hese signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will speak in new tongues. (Mark 16:17)

Why not manifest Heaven’s power on Earth?

All spiritual gifts are still in operation today—just as they were 20 centuries ago.

This is the will of Heaven:

So that ye come behind in no [not one] gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:7 KJV)

Today, we still wait for the coming of our Lord, and while we wait, we are not to lack even one gift…

“So that ye come behind in no gift.”

“No” means “not one.”

No exceptions.

Exceptions only exist in man’s imagination and in religious tradition—not in the Scriptures.

What does our Lord ask of us?

“Follow after charity [God’s love], and desire spiritual gifts.” (1 Cor. 14:1 KJV)

“Desire spiritual gifts.”

Did Paul say, desire “some” spiritual gifts?

No…

“Desire spiritual gifts” means “desire spiritual gifts.”

No exceptions.

The power of the Holy Spirit is ours to manifest…

Why should we allow any “authority” to set limits on our spiritual walk with God?

God bless.

revel

Revel
Jun 11th 2007, 04:26 PM
If you would like to personally fulfill the prophecy given to us by our Lord, and speak forth the sign of “tongues,” I invite you to visit my Web site:

www.thetimeline.org

This is about following the examples given to us in the Scriptures; there is no record of anyone hitting the ground after they spoke in tongues, nor is there any record of extreme physical theatrics after someone spoke in tongues.

This is about peace, joy, comfort, confidence, and strength within that spiritual edification brings to those who speak forth this sign.

God bless.

revel

Revel
Jun 29th 2007, 03:22 PM
OUR LORD’S COMMANDS

After Paul wrote of spiritual gifts and divine love, he revealed this to us:

[L]et him acknowledge that what I [Paul] am writing to you is the Lord’s command. (1 Cor. 14:37)

What exactly did Paul share with us?

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts. (1 Cor. 14:1)

In Corinthians, our Lord is imploring us—and commanding us—to apply what we have been given.

What is the impact of ignoring love and ignoring spiritual gifts?

What is the impact of living love and manifesting spiritual gifts?

That’s the difference we make as individuals in Christ’s kingdom.

Love and spiritual gifts are designed to be inseparable:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor. 13:1)

During his earthly ministry, Christ enabled us to fully understand this divine love when he gave us a new command:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. (John 13:34, 35)

Commands from Heaven… to the church… never go out of style.

We as Christ’s church can only benefit by following the commands of our Lord: We are commanded to love others as Christ loved, and we are commanded to desire spiritual gifts—and manifest spiritual gifts with that same love and passion.

Let us manifest the Holy Spirit with the love of Christ.

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed.” (1 Cor. 12:3)

We are not the ones cursing Heaven when we speak by the Spirit of God… nor did the Old Testament prophets curse Heaven when they spoke by the Spirit.

For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21)

The origin of the Old and New Testaments, and the origin of “tongues” is the same: God.

During Old Testament times, only a select few had the Holy Spirit to inspire them. However, the prophecy from Joel was that God would pour out his Spirit:

In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. (Acts 2:17)

As members of Christ’s church, each one of us has the indwelling Holy Spirit, and each one of us can manifest the Holy Spirit.

It is no wonder that Paul said, “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues” (1 Cor. 14:5).

And it is no wonder that Paul said, “Do not put out the Spirit’s fire” (1 Thes. 5:19).

I hope this blessed you as much as it did me.

Let the fire within burn brightly!!

God bless.

revel