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ross3421
Apr 10th 2007, 06:04 AM
Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Answering this question may better help in understanding our future home.


Mark

John146
Apr 10th 2007, 06:32 AM
There will be no need for medicine. As it says in Revelation 21:4, "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." No more pain. No more death. And we can assume no more sickness. Afterall, we will have immortal, incorruptible bodies. So, this means the purpose of the tree of life is to provide continual health for eternity and not to provide healing for pain or sickness.

Eric

Romulus
Apr 10th 2007, 02:13 PM
Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Answering this question may better help in understanding our future home.


Mark

Revelation 22 is a great example of timing. When it speaks of the "healing of the nations" it cannot mean in eternity or after the "End" since nations still need healing. I believe that this is a present reality today after Christs atoning work through His shed blood on the cross. We have been restored to heaven itself into the presence of God. The nations will be healed as we have access now to the tree of life through Jesus.

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 04:05 PM
There will be no need for medicine. As it says in Revelation 21:4, "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." No more pain. No more death. And we can assume no more sickness. Afterall, we will have immortal, incorruptible bodies. So, this means the purpose of the tree of life is to provide continual health for eternity and not to provide healing for pain or sickness.

Eric

Why would an incorruptible body need perpetual healing?

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 04:12 PM
Revelation 22 is a great example of timing. When it speaks of the "healing of the nations" it cannot mean in eternity or after the "End" since nations still need healing. I believe that this is a present reality today after Christs atoning work through His shed blood on the cross. We have been restored to heaven itself into the presence of God. The nations will be healed as we have access now to the tree of life through Jesus.

Why would that be so? The word "were" in the passage is not found in the original text. 21:22-22:5 seems to be one continual passage speaking about the same time frame. There are no natural grammatical breaks that would lead us to believe that there are two time frames in view. Your sole justification to create a dual time frame within one passage of text is theological, not grammatical. Thus, to thrust verse 2 to our present context to the exclusion of all the other verses seems to be an eisegetical leap.

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2007, 04:43 PM
Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Mark

It would be no different that God drying the tears from the eyes in this verse.

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes"

God won't have a heavenly Kleenex.

John is describing something that is pretty much indescribable; how life will be when we are united with Jesus perfectly and gloriously without sin and without the pangs of the curse that is upon the current creation.

Wiping tears and fruit healing people are metaphors used to show the unimaginable perfection and resplendant glory of what things will be like when Christ redeems His creation fully, finally, and completely.

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 04:45 PM
It would be no different that God drying the tears from the eyes in this verse.

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes"

God won't have a heavenly Kleenex.

John is describing something that is pretty much indescribable; how life will be when we are united with Jesus perfectly and gloriously without sin and without the pangs of the curse that is upon the current creation.

Wiping tears and fruit healing people are metaphors used to show the unimaginable perfection and resplendant glory of what things will be like when Christ redeems His creation fully, finally, and completely.

What in the text led you to make that comparative leap with Rev. 21:4?

Romulus
Apr 10th 2007, 04:52 PM
Why would that be so? The word "were" in the passage is not found in the original text. 21:22-22:5 seems to be one continual passage speaking about the same time frame. There are no natural grammatical breaks that would lead us to believe that there are two time frames in view. Your sole justification to create a dual time frame within one passage of text is theological, not grammatical. Thus, to thrust verse 2 to our present context to the exclusion of all the other verses seems to be an eisegetical leap.

Hi Rookie,

You are correct. I don't wish to throw both Revelation 21 and 22 into two different time frames. I believe both are in the same time period. Just to be clear, this is a partial-preterist point of view(though I am sure not all hold to it). Days of Vengeance by David Chilton(when he was a partial-preterist) held to this view. Both the New Jerusalem and the Tree of Life were in the same time period.

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2007, 04:52 PM
What in the text led you to make that comparative leap with Rev. 21:4?


Wiping Tears (Kleenex, hankerchief, etc...whatever)
and
Healing Fruit (Tangerines, Seedless grapes, etc...whatever)

Are examples John is using to describe what otherwise is undescribable to us.

The entire idea that sin and death and pain and sorrow and the curse upon the creation are gone and removed....is so unimaginable and removed from our normal understanding and expectations, that John used this colorful language to come as close as he could to describe the indescribable.

You can also see the same application to the alternative abode; the Lake of Fire and all its unpleasantries. It's horrors can only barely be described in a way for us to understand.

John uses this verbose figures of speech in his attempt to describe the things that present mortal man cannot even begin to accurately fathom to their fullest extent.

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 04:59 PM
Wiping Tears (Kleenex, hankerchief, etc...whatever)
and
Healing Fruit (Tangerines, Seedless grapes, etc...whatever)

Are examples John is using to describe what otherwise is undescribable to us.

The entire idea that sin and death and pain and sorrow and the curse upon the creation are gone and removed....is so unimaginable and removed from our normal understanding and expectations, that John used this colorful language to come as close as he could to describe the indescribable.

You can also see the same application to the alternative abode; the Lake of Fire and all its unpleasantries. It's horrors can only barely be described in a way for us to understand.

John uses this verbose figures of speech in his attempt to describe the things that present mortal man cannot even begin to accurately fathom to their fullest extent.

I'm just wondering what the rules are to determine when John is using a colloquialism or being figurative and when John is telling us about actual trees. For instance, if John does not mean "tree" with fruit here in Rev. 22, does this now mean he was not talking about actual trees in Rev. 7 and 9? It would be good to help the student of Revelation understand when a tree is a tree and when it isn't. Otherwise one could make Revelation say whatever they wanted it to, explaining away the hard parts.

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 05:07 PM
Hi Rookie,

You are correct. I don't wish to throw both Revelation 21 and 22 into two different time frames. I believe both are in the same time period. Just to be clear, this is a partial-preterist point of view(though I am sure not all hold to it). Days of Vengeance by David Chilton(when he was a partial-preterist) held to this view. Both the New Jerusalem and the Tree of Life were in the same time period.

That's a helpful addendum in regards to your interpretation of that passage. How much of Revelation 21 and 22 are a present reality, then? And how would the leaves of the tree interact with the nations - in other words, what does that actually involve in this present time?

John146
Apr 10th 2007, 05:08 PM
Why would an incorruptible body need perpetual healing?

It doesn't. I didn't mean that. The point is that the tree of life represents Christ who is the one who gave us eternal life and sustains our eternal life. It can never be taken from us. We will not need physical food in eternity because He will be our food, so to speak. Revelation 22 represents that fact symbolically. There is no more death or pain in the new heavens and new earth so we can't possibly think that any healing would be necessary. Are you thinking that Revelation 22 does not refer to the new heavens and new earth? If so, please explain, because I see no cause for interpreting it as speaking of anything other than the new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (2 Peter 3:13) and where there is no more death or pain or sorrow. Look at the very next verse after the one we are discussing: it says there will be no more curse. That is clearly speaking of the new earth/new Jerusalem.

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2007, 05:11 PM
I'm just wondering what the rules are to determine when John is using a colloquialism or being figurative and when John is telling us about actual trees. For instance, if John does not mean "tree" with fruit here in Rev. 22, does this now mean he was not talking about actual trees in Rev. 7 and 9? It would be good to help the student of Revelation understand when a tree is a tree and when it isn't. Otherwise one could make Revelation say whatever they wanted it to, explaining away the hard parts.

You missed the point here.

He could have said the heavenly tonka trucks and golden treasure chests filled with riches of jewels, coins, and spices.

The point John was making wasn't to focus on the material thing he was using in his anlogy, (which anything could have been used); but to focus on the conditions of the environment that it will be like when Christ removes sin and death and the curse off of Creation.

We can speculate that there will be trees and flowers and horses and rivers and gates and walls and streets and all kinds of things mentioned and not mentioned....but that isn't really important.

That isn't the point John was wanting the reader to focus on at all. Those just happen to be the words he chose to describe the indescribable.

And the Indescribable itself, is the focus of what John is presenting.

Being in the direct presence with Jesus Christ when sin, death, and the curse upon Creation have been removed; and we are glorified and incoruptible.

That is the point the student of Revelation should see as what John is emphasizing.

John wasn't wanting the student to get bogged down in analyzing the brush-strokes that made the picture; but to see the glory of the picture itself. Us with Christ in a perfectly restored Creation for ever and ever amen.

ross3421
Apr 10th 2007, 05:36 PM
Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Is this not speaking of the same? It appears not only is there "the" tree (of life) but other trees which also draw thier water from the river of life.

Another questioned asked would be why the need of a river of life and a tree of life? Not to metion the need for "salt" for the unhealed waters.....

Eze 47:11But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.



I think to answer our questions we need to ask... Who is living outside of the city walls whereby they need to come through the gates? Why is there a need for some still to do commandments?

Re 22:14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Mark

fellowservant
Apr 10th 2007, 05:54 PM
Healing in the word is sometimes not refered to as a human condition or physical illness, it can be a healing of the soul heart or mind, a spiritual healing or awakening.

God bless

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2007, 06:05 PM
Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Mark


While John may have had the Ezekiel 47 language in mind when penning the Revelation 22 passage, it is clear from the context of the two passages; that they cannot be referring to the same thing.

Revelation 21-22's environment is sinless, without death and pain and where the curse upon Creation is removed.

Ezekiel 46-48 speaks of an environment where sin continues, goats are slain for sin and tresspass offerings to sanctify the people, people go astray, sacrifices are offered for.

quiet dove
Apr 10th 2007, 07:24 PM
I am curious, what about the tree of life withing the Garden of Eden and that Adam and Eve were not to eat of it?

And with the trees in Ezekiel in mind, could they be like the rest of the trees in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned they didnt eat meat, is that right? They were physicaly sustained by the fruit growing in the garden, could the trees of Ezekiel be like that? Which wouldnt make sense in eternity since we dont need food then or at least it was my understanding that we wont need food then, but during a millenial reign, if there are physical people, they would need food?

I am really just asking this is not something I have done any diving into.

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2007, 07:32 PM
I am curious, what about the tree of life withing the Garden of Eden and that Adam and Eve were not to eat of it?


Adam and Eve weren't forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life in the Garden.

They ate from it, until they sinned.

They were only forbidden to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil.

Genesis 2:9,16 "2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat"

quiet dove
Apr 10th 2007, 08:16 PM
Ok,brain not working,

I guess if there is a millenial kingdom physical people still couldnt from the tree of life.

But what about the other trees that were sustaining them that they didnt eat meat, because isnt there vitamins and supplements that vegetarians sometimes need to take?

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 08:30 PM
You missed the point here.

He could have said the heavenly tonka trucks and golden treasure chests filled with riches of jewels, coins, and spices.

The point John was making wasn't to focus on the material thing he was using in his anlogy, (which anything could have been used); but to focus on the conditions of the environment that it will be like when Christ removes sin and death and the curse off of Creation.

We can speculate that there will be trees and flowers and horses and rivers and gates and walls and streets and all kinds of things mentioned and not mentioned....but that isn't really important.

That isn't the point John was wanting the reader to focus on at all. Those just happen to be the words he chose to describe the indescribable.

And the Indescribable itself, is the focus of what John is presenting.

Being in the direct presence with Jesus Christ when sin, death, and the curse upon Creation have been removed; and we are glorified and incoruptible.

That is the point the student of Revelation should see as what John is emphasizing.

John wasn't wanting the student to get bogged down in analyzing the brush-strokes that made the picture; but to see the glory of the picture itself. Us with Christ in a perfectly restored Creation for ever and ever amen.

I didn't miss the point, I was simply asking what the rules were that caused you to draw that conclusion; these rules would then help us discern "tree" or "no tree" throughout the book. Or whatever physical, material, object you would like to substitute metaphorically. :D

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 08:31 PM
Adam and Eve weren't forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life in the Garden.

They ate from it, until they sinned.

They were only forbidden to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil.

Genesis 2:9,16 "2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat"

Was it a real tree or a metaphorical tree? :lol:

the rookie
Apr 10th 2007, 08:32 PM
It doesn't. I didn't mean that. The point is that the tree of life represents Christ who is the one who gave us eternal life and sustains our eternal life. It can never be taken from us. We will not need physical food in eternity because He will be our food, so to speak. Revelation 22 represents that fact symbolically. There is no more death or pain in the new heavens and new earth so we can't possibly think that any healing would be necessary. Are you thinking that Revelation 22 does not refer to the new heavens and new earth? If so, please explain, because I see no cause for interpreting it as speaking of anything other than the new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (2 Peter 3:13) and where there is no more death or pain or sorrow. Look at the very next verse after the one we are discussing: it says there will be no more curse. That is clearly speaking of the new earth/new Jerusalem.

I am thinking that I want to know how you discerned what you were thinking when you made a tree that brings healing not mean healing. :D

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2007, 08:59 PM
Was it a real tree or a metaphorical tree? :lol:


It was a raspberry-tree. :P

third hero
Apr 10th 2007, 09:58 PM
Revelation 22 is a great example of timing. When it speaks of the "healing of the nations" it cannot mean in eternity or after the "End" since nations still need healing. I believe that this is a present reality today after Christs atoning work through His shed blood on the cross. We have been restored to heaven itself into the presence of God. The nations will be healed as we have access now to the tree of life through Jesus.

Wrong, again!.

The nations will definitely be in need of healing. Understand this, the nations that will be under the rule of Christ after He returns will be in turmoil when Satan is released. Satan will cause strife in the scale almost similar to the what we will end up enduring through the Great Tribulation. Satan's goal will be to regain the earth, and many nations will be split, and civbil wars may end up being common, all the while, the enemy will be garnering support for his trip to Jerusalem, where he, along with the wicked at that time, will attempt to retake over the world. The amount of damage that will cause the nations will be tremendous, all the while, when the earth is destroyed, then all of God's Kingdom will be transported to the new earth and heaven. There will be people from all nations who will be there, and the strifes that they will have carried with them into New Jerusalem has to be dealt with.

Take America for example. There are Christians that are black, and there are Christians who are white, and there will no doubtly be some animosity towards those races, even in this country. Whne we meet in New Jerusalem, the Lord will finally put an end to all of the animosity, and the Tree of life is going to heal even those who lived in this nation on this earth. The tree of life will bring healing to all believers everywhere, where there will be no more death, no more suffering, and the tree of life will heal the minds, hearts, and spirits of us who have animosities towrds each other.

Now there will be Jews and Arabs, Indians and Europeans, Blacks and whites, brothers, sisters, fathers, sons, daughters, and others who will be there in heaven who will have animosity towards each other, because of the dirt that each race has done to each other. How else will God deal with this? Hence, the tree of life, to bring healing to other nations.

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 03:57 AM
I am thinking that I want to know how you discerned what you were thinking when you made a tree that brings healing not mean healing. :D

As I already said, a place where there is no more death or pain that is populated by people with immortal, incorruptible bodies has no need for healing if the healing was speaking of healing pain or sickness. I am completely convinced that Revelation 22:1-5 is still speaking of the new heavens, new earth and new Jerusalem and is a continuation of the subject from Revelation 21. Here is why I believe this. I'll quote the verse from Revelation 22 and show how it relates to the new earth and new Jerusalem:

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. - Revelation 22:1

This looks quite similar to this:

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. - Revelation 21:6

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: - Revelation 22:3

That verse reminds me of this:

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. - Revelation 21:22

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. - Revelation 22:4

That verse ties together with this:

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. - Revelation 3:12

5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. - Revelation 22:5

Very similar to:

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. - Revelation 21:23-27

So, if you think Revelation 22:1-5 is not speaking of the new heavens, new earth and new Jerusalem, then perhaps you'd like to share what you think it is speaking about?

Eric

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 04:12 AM
Wrong, again!.

Such a nice way of putting it. :rolleyes:



The nations will definitely be in need of healing. Understand this, the nations that will be under the rule of Christ after He returns will be in turmoil when Satan is released. Satan will cause strife in the scale almost similar to the what we will end up enduring through the Great Tribulation.

Almost similar? What difference do you see between what you call the GT and Satan's little season?



Satan's goal will be to regain the earth, and many nations will be split, and civbil wars may end up being common, all the while, the enemy will be garnering support for his trip to Jerusalem, where he, along with the wicked at that time, will attempt to retake over the world. The amount of damage that will cause the nations will be tremendous, all the while, when the earth is destroyed, then all of God's Kingdom will be transported to the new earth and heaven. There will be people from all nations who will be there, and the strifes that they will have carried with them into New Jerusalem has to be dealt with.

What? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I guess you have forgotten that.



Take America for example. There are Christians that are black, and there are Christians who are white, and there will no doubtly be some animosity towards those races, even in this country. Whne we meet in New Jerusalem, the Lord will finally put an end to all of the animosity, and the Tree of life is going to heal even those who lived in this nation on this earth. The tree of life will bring healing to all believers everywhere, where there will be no more death, no more suffering, and the tree of life will heal the minds, hearts, and spirits of us who have animosities towrds each other.

Can you explain why people with immortal, incorruptible bodies will need healing?




Now there will be Jews and Arabs, Indians and Europeans, Blacks and whites, brothers, sisters, fathers, sons, daughters, and others who will be there in heaven who will have animosity towards each other, because of the dirt that each race has done to each other. How else will God deal with this? Hence, the tree of life, to bring healing to other nations.

That is completely unbiblical speculation. Believers will not have animosity towards each other on the new earth. We will be like Christ. Our sinful fleshly natures will be gone forever. We will be glorified and perfected with immortal and incorruptible bodies. There is no Scripture that would support your outrageous claim.

chal
Apr 11th 2007, 08:47 AM
John wasn't wanting the student to get bogged down in analyzing the brush-strokes that made the picture; but to see the glory of the picture itself. Us with Christ in a perfectly restored Creation for ever and ever amen.

chal > Nicely put.

ross3421
Apr 11th 2007, 03:30 PM
Which wouldnt make sense in eternity since we dont need food



Why would thier be fisherman spreading thier nets to catch fish? Hobby?

Eze 47:9And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.Eze 47:10And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

Mark

David Taylor
Apr 11th 2007, 07:54 PM
Why would thier be fisherman spreading thier nets to catch fish? Hobby?

Eze 47:9And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.Eze 47:10And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

Mark

That's what fisherman did in the 500 B.C. era when Ezekiel wrote down the vision of the soon-to-begin rebuilding Temple project.

Evidently the same unfaithfulness that caused the temple not to be rebuilt in the exact grandness as it was blueprinted also hurt the fishing harvest.

Luckily for the avid fishermen though, there were great fishing times coming down the pike very soon none-the-less....

"Now when Jesus had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net. And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake." Luke 5:4

Saved7
Apr 11th 2007, 09:34 PM
Revelation 22 is a great example of timing. When it speaks of the "healing of the nations" it cannot mean in eternity or after the "End" since nations still need healing. I believe that this is a present reality today after Christs atoning work through His shed blood on the cross. We have been restored to heaven itself into the presence of God. The nations will be healed as we have access now to the tree of life through Jesus.


Yah, only too bad that a nation can't be healed unless all of it receives Christ. And that is not going to happen until we ALL see His face return and EVERYONE who survives repents.

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2007, 02:39 AM
Why would thier be fisherman spreading thier nets to catch fish? Hobby?

Eze 47:9And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.Eze 47:10And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.



I wasnt saying that we couldnt eat, I was just saying eating wouldnt be required to sustain our glorified bodies. Jesus was capable of eating, like in John 21:15 but that doesnt mean eating is required to survive

TEITZY
Apr 12th 2007, 10:27 AM
Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Answering this question may better help in understanding our future home.


Mark

I think a better translation of medicine or healing in this context would be 'health'. The thought being that these leaves somehow enhance our experience of eternity. As has been already pointed out, there will be no sin and therefore no pain, suffering, disease etc. in the new heavens and earth, so we can reasonably conclude that the meaning of healing here is something other than its most common usage. Interestingly, the Greek word therapeia is also translated as "servants" in Lk 12:42. So this thought of service would fit with my original suggestion that these leaves are used by the saints to aid or enhance their worship & experience of heaven.

Cheers
Leigh

Romulus
Apr 12th 2007, 04:16 PM
Yah, only too bad that a nation can't be healed unless all of it receives Christ. And that is not going to happen until we ALL see His face return and EVERYONE who survives repents.

Well I must disagree. We are all believers and healed through the blood of Christ....the living water. A nation is not healed by utter destruction and then the survivors repent and turn to Him. I believe the nations will be healed by the spreading of the Gospel....just as we were. The healing occurs as the unstoppable message of our Lord is spread throughout the entire world and lived out by His children, us. The love we share and give to the world by the love shown us will change the world. We are still in the beginning of Christianity.

John146
Apr 12th 2007, 05:00 PM
Well I must disagree. We are all believers and healed through the blood of Christ....the living water. A nation is not healed by utter destruction and then the survivors repent and turn to Him. I believe the nations will be healed by the spreading of the Gospel....just as we were. The healing occurs as the unstoppable message of our Lord is spread throughout the entire world and lived out by His children, us. The love we share and give to the world by the love shown us will change the world. We are still in the beginning of Christianity.

Your view contradicts this:

23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. - Matthew 13:23-24

And this:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Matthew 7:13-14

You think eventually the gate will be broad as Christianity continues to be preached. Jesus said the gate is narrow. He didn't indicate it would ever be anything but narrow. You have to face the facts as sad as they might be. But we need to strive to help save as many as we can before it's too late when Christ returns to take vengeance on the wicked.

Romulus
Apr 12th 2007, 05:33 PM
Your view contradicts this:

23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. - Matthew 13:23-24

And this:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Matthew 7:13-14

You think eventually the gate will be broad as Christianity continues to be preached. Jesus said the gate is narrow. He didn't indicate it would ever be anything but narrow. You have to face the facts as sad as they might be. But we need to strive to help save as many as we can before it's too late when Christ returns to take vengeance on the wicked.

I am in the minority but I believe that the Gospel will convert the world. Look at history, back centuries ago Christianity was the dominant force in most of the world. Jesus is reigning now and has there been evidence that any kingdom against Him will fall? I believe there is......Nazi Germany, Facist Italy, Communist Russia,....and these are not the last. Any nation against the Lord will fall. The great commission will succeed.

David Taylor
Apr 12th 2007, 05:55 PM
I am in the minority but I believe that the Gospel will convert the world. Look at history, back centuries ago Christianity was the dominant force in most of the world. Jesus is reigning now and has there been evidence that any kingdom against Him will fall? I believe there is......Nazi Germany, Facist Italy, Communist Russia,....and these are not the last. Any nation against the Lord will fall. The great commission will succeed.

Yes it will succeed. In each successive generation until He returns, it will continue to draw to the Lord, new believing converts.

However, overall, as Eric stated from the scriptures from both Mark and Matthew, the overall-populace will not turn to Christ en-masse.

Many more individuals will continue to come to Christ; as Christ continues to defeat His enemies, but this will never create an environment of Universalism.

The true faithful believers, will always be in the minorty of the populace according to the scriptures; until Christ returns to sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the fiery furnace.

Romulus
Apr 12th 2007, 06:33 PM
Yes it will succeed. In each successive generation until He returns, it will continue to draw to the Lord, new believing converts.

However, overall, as Eric stated from the scriptures from both Mark and Matthew, the overall-populace will not turn to Christ en-masse.

Many more individuals will continue to come to Christ; as Christ continues to defeat His enemies, but this will never create an environment of Universalism.

The true faithful believers, will always be in the minorty of the populace according to the scriptures; until Christ returns to sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the fiery furnace.

Well how would you interpret the following then?

Daniel 2:31-35

:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold an image: that image was great, and the appearance of it excellent, standing before thy face; and the form of it was terrible.
2:32 [It was] an image, the head of which was of fine gold, its hands and breast and arms of silver, [its] belly and thighs of brass,
2:33 its legs of iron, its feet, part of iron and part of earthenware.
2:34 Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder.
2:35 Then once for all the earthenware, the iron, the brass, the silver, the gold, were ground to powder, and became as chaff from the summer threshingfloor; and the violence of the wind carried them away, and no place was found for them: and the stone which had smitten the image became a great mountain, and filled all the earth.

This is the result of the enthronement of Christ. It states an advancing kingdom which is where we get the term. Also our mission is stated in the following.....

Matthew 28

The Great Commission

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-24212a)] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

This is our task. From the scripture God expects the nations to follow and obey Him. This is done by the power of the Gospel. Imagine if every believer lived as Christ wanted us to. Loving our neighbor as ourselves, following his Word. The world would indeed change. We must not fight amongst ourselves, but work together to spread the Gospel through the testimony that is our life.

David Taylor
Apr 12th 2007, 07:13 PM
Well how would you interpret the following then?

Daniel 2:31-35

:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold an image: that image was great, and the appearance of it excellent, standing before thy face; and the form of it was terrible.
2:32 an image, the head of which was of fine gold, its hands and breast and arms of silver, [its] belly and thighs of brass,
2:33 its legs of iron, its feet, part of iron and part of earthenware.
2:34 Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder.
2:35 Then once for all the earthenware, the iron, the brass, the silver, the gold, were ground to powder, and became as chaff from the summer threshingfloor; and the violence of the wind carried them away, and no place was found for them: and the stone which had smitten the image became a great mountain, and filled all the earth.

This is the result of the enthronement of Christ. It states an advancing kingdom which is where we get the term. Also our mission is stated in the following.....


And if you read Revelation 7:9 you will see an uncountable multitude of believers from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Uncountable would at least neighbor somewhere in the billions.....yet, just like your filling of the earth example from Daniel above, that does not mean all humans will repent. Just that all the earth will be filled with Christians. That is true today. (while still in the vast minority of the total living people).






Matthew 28

The Great Commission

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-24212a)] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

This is our task. From the scripture God expects the nations to follow and obey Him. This is done by the power of the Gospel. Imagine if every believer lived as Christ wanted us to. Loving our neighbor as ourselves, following his Word. The world would indeed change. We must not fight amongst ourselves, but work together to spread the Gospel through the testimony that is our life.

But nothing of the two passages, or what you say, provide evidence that Christianity will ever be in the majority of the total population of the Earth.

That is the primary difference between Postmillennialism and Pre/A-Millennialism. Postmillennialism sees an eventual utopian Earth that Scripture never describes and bestows upon sinful mortal humankind in our present condition.

If you sample all humanity from all time, you may very well find several billion Christians.

But in that same total sampling, you will also unfortunately, find dozens of billions if not trillions of rejectant unbelievers.

The gospel message going out has been wonderful.

The church grew from thousands and thousands to millions and then billions.....but it still remains in the minority of all humankind.

It doesn't diminish the task of us to continue taking the gospel out; why?

Not because we are expecting to turn a majority, but because we are expecting that maybe 1 or 2 will repent, and turn to believe. We snatch those who will out of the fire; and count it for the victory.

If a majority were possible, then it would have happened in Israel circa 33 A.D.

The most Spirit filled, God-powered, Wise, Intelligent, and Charasmatic Teacher that has ever existed walked those lowly Judean hills.

And even with His messages and teachings....the majority rejected, and only a few believed.

We take the great commission out into the nations, for the few that will believe. Just like Jesus did.

[I]John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

John 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee

I Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?

I Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

I John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away

I John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen. "

John146
Apr 13th 2007, 03:03 AM
I think a better translation of medicine or healing in this context would be 'health'. The thought being that these leaves somehow enhance our experience of eternity. As has been already pointed out, there will be no sin and therefore no pain, suffering, disease etc. in the new heavens and earth, so we can reasonably conclude that the meaning of healing here is something other than its most common usage. Interestingly, the Greek word therapeia is also translated as "servants" in Lk 12:42. So this thought of service would fit with my original suggestion that these leaves are used by the saints to aid or enhance their worship & experience of heaven.

Cheers
Leigh

Interesting post. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing.

Eric

John146
Apr 13th 2007, 03:12 AM
I am in the minority but I believe that the Gospel will convert the world. Look at history, back centuries ago Christianity was the dominant force in most of the world. Jesus is reigning now and has there been evidence that any kingdom against Him will fall? I believe there is......Nazi Germany, Facist Italy, Communist Russia,....and these are not the last. Any nation against the Lord will fall. The great commission will succeed.

No comments on the passages I pointed out? Jesus was asked if few would be saved. The way I read it, He basically said, "Yes, few will be saved" because He pointed out that many would go down the broad way of destruction and that few would find the narrow way of life. That's relatively speaking of course. Millions are saved today. The gospel has made a big impact. When you look at how things were before Christ came, we know that His death spoiled much of Satan's goods and his house. But compared to 6 billion...seeing millions saved is disappointing. Ideally, it would be a majority saved, at least, but Christ did not say it would be that way. And what about Satan's little season when he again is able to deceive the nations as He did before Christ came. Where does that fit in your view?

Also, how does what is described in Revelation 21:4 ever come about in your view? Do you believe that eventually the preaching of the gospel would bring about a state of no more death, crying, sorrow or pain? Do you think there will always be unbelievers on the new earth for eternity? If so, what about the unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire on the day of Judgment? Also, how does 2 Peter 3:10-13 fit with your view?

Eric

John146
Apr 13th 2007, 03:23 AM
Matthew 28

The Great Commission

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-24212a)] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

This is our task. From the scripture God expects the nations to follow and obey Him. This is done by the power of the Gospel. Imagine if every believer lived as Christ wanted us to. Loving our neighbor as ourselves, following his Word. The world would indeed change. We must not fight amongst ourselves, but work together to spread the Gospel through the testimony that is our life.

Do we make disciples of nations or individuals? I think you are taking this out of context. We make disciples in all nations but it is not reasonable to think that we would make everyone in all nations disciples. That is not what Jesus expected us to do. He expects us to preach the gospel to everyone in all nations, but it's clear from other Scripture that not everyone, or even close to everyone will be saved. Just as Paul hoped to help save some (not all) of his fellow Israelites, we hope to help save as many as possible before Christ returns to take vengeance on the wicked, as I said before. But, of course, you are not looking forward to the blessed hope of the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, which is a serious error.

Eric

Diolectic
Apr 13th 2007, 10:46 PM
Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Answering this question may better help in understanding our future home.Revelation 22:2 is eternaty and notice the word "were" for the healing of the nations.
That means it's original purpose was for that but not in eternaty.

Eze 47:12 is during the Milinial reign.

the rookie
Apr 14th 2007, 12:08 AM
Revelation 22:2 is eternaty and notice the word "were" for the healing of the nations.
That means it's original purpose was for that but not in eternaty.

Eze 47:12 is during the Milinial reign.

Except that "were" is not a part of the original text. That's why it's in italics in the NKJV.

Teke
Apr 14th 2007, 12:35 AM
Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Answering this question may better help in understanding our future home.


Mark

I don't think the answer is going to help better understand our future home. Unless we understand communion with God in a liturgical sense. Meaning in the context of worship. :)

seeker_truth
Apr 14th 2007, 07:02 AM
The future New Jerusalem, which comes after the mill. kingdom is called "a new thing." Rev.21:5

This "new thing" could be sister to the Garden of Eden. However, instead of a garden we have a city.

The people of this city will be much like Adam and Eve. They will eat the fruit of the tree of life, and use it's leaf for healing.

Do you recall the verse, "in my Father's house are many mansions"? Well, this new city is one of those mansions.

Heaven is the House of our Heavenly Father and the New Jerusalem is a mansion within His House.

The mansion, the holy city, the new Jerusalem, the tabernacle of God (dwelling place), are all names of the same city, the Bride, the Lamb's wife. Rev.21:9-10

The Lord God Almight and the Lamb are the Temple of the new city. There is no actual building called the Temple. Rev.22:21
However, the Throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it. Rev.22:3

At that time, will our Heavenly Father have His Throne in Heaven, a placed referred to as His House where "there are many mansions"?

I believe so.

seeker_truth

excubitor
Apr 14th 2007, 09:17 AM
The passage in Revelation DOES NOT mention medicine. Medicine is used for the healing of physical disease. However I do not believe that this is what is being healed in the passage in Revelation 22. It talks about the healing of the nations. To me if it was talking about healing of physical disease it would have said "the healing of men". The fact that it is talking about the healing of nations indicates to me that it is the long entrenched animosities between nations which is being repaired.

When it says that ever tear will be dried it tells me that there are still sore memories of this life which we take into eternity. The fact that our tears must be dried proves that we do still cry initially until God soothes us and then we will no longer cry. It will take some time for the horrors of this life to be entirely forgotten. I don't think that God will just wave a magic wand like in Men in Black MIB and all is forgotten. The memories of animosities between nations will still linger. My reading of this is that it is the tree of life which gradually heals the relationships and hurts between the nations. Who knows how many decades it will take before complete and unreserved fellowship will occur between the nations and all the hurts of the past are dealt with and forgotten into distant memory.

One thing that people seem to forget is that in the New Heavens and the New Earth we will still be men. We will have bodies and emotions just like Jesus had after he was resurrected. Glorified and eternal bodies of course but human nonetheless.

The joyous point though is that it we have the promise of these passages to show that there will be complete reconciliation between the nations and the complete healing of all sorrow, however I do not believe it will happen overnight like a magic wand but will take some time.

The passage in Ezek 47 is NOT set in the New Heavens and the New Earth. This is obvious because there is a temple described in Ezek 47 whereas in Rev 21 we learn that there IS NO temple in the New Heavens and the New Earth. The Ezek 47 passage is about the millenium where Jesus will rule over the nations. During the millenium the people will be normal physical human beings who will benefit from medicine. We know that they are physical human beings because at the end of the millenium when Satan is released there is a big battle where the huge army of men numbering as the sands of the sea are destroyed because of their rebellion.

The Ezek 47 passage shows that there will be an inexhaustible supply of food and medicine for the use of humans who live by the healing waters which come from the temple.

David Taylor
Apr 14th 2007, 04:17 PM
The Ezek 47 passage shows that there will be an inexhaustible supply of food and medicine for the use of humans who live by the healing waters which come from the temple.


The New Testament tell us the temple is Jesus, and the healing waters that flow out of the temple is the everlasting life that the Holy Spirit brings.

When Jesus was teaching this to the crowds, it seems that back then, most of the Scribes, Rulers, Priests, and Pharisees didn't understand His explanation.

John chapter 4 and John chapter 7 and 8 are great chapters!

Romulus
Apr 16th 2007, 08:40 PM
And if you read Revelation 7:9 you will see an uncountable multitude of believers from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Uncountable would at least neighbor somewhere in the billions.....yet, just like your filling of the earth example from Daniel above, that does not mean all humans will repent. Just that all the earth will be filled with Christians. That is true today. (while still in the vast minority of the total living people).




You are correct. But if this is the Millenium or the reign of Christ. Is it hard to believe that eventually the earth will be filled with Christians? I know that looking at what is happening around us or in the news that the world could not be majority Christian but isn't the Church called to bring the Gospel to the nations and is it hard to believe that in faith, most in this world will accept God's Word in time just as the mountain covers the earth since no kingdom against our Lord will stand? What if the Church united (all who know Jesus as Lord) and not arguing with each other on issues such as baptism, or collars or.......When Jesus may come back :D
but standing together proclaiming the Gospel and showing people the Love of God through the Love we show. Is it hard to believe that nations will see Jesus through our eyes and know who we are?

Just a thought.




But nothing of the two passages, or what you say, provide evidence that Christianity will ever be in the majority of the total population of the Earth.


Why wouldn't it be? We might be in the beginning of Christianity, not the end. What if the Church did exactly as we are called to do? Each person. Wouldn't we be a group to content with? Wouldn't the world have to take notice. Wouldn't God's blessing be upon us?



That is the primary difference between Postmillennialism and Pre/A-Millennialism. Postmillennialism sees an eventual utopian Earth that Scripture never describes and bestows upon sinful mortal humankind in our present condition.


No argument. I agree.



If you sample all humanity from all time, you may very well find several billion Christians.

But in that same total sampling, you will also unfortunately, find dozens of billions if not trillions of rejectant unbelievers.

The gospel message going out has been wonderful.

The church grew from thousands and thousands to millions and then billions.....but it still remains in the minority of all humankind.



Is it hard to believe that one day, since Jesus is reigning now and we are called to reign with Him that the Church will storm the gates of hell through the living out of the Gospel? That every stronghold will fall before our Lord? Again, if we believe that we are in the Millenium.



It doesn't diminish the task of us to continue taking the gospel out; why?

Not because we are expecting to turn a majority, but because we are expecting that maybe 1 or 2 will repent, and turn to believe. We snatch those who will out of the fire; and count it for the victory.


Maybe we should aim higher........as one body.



If a majority were possible, then it would have happened in Israel circa 33 A.D.

The most Spirit filled, God-powered, Wise, Intelligent, and Charasmatic Teacher that has ever existed walked those lowly Judean hills.

And even with His messages and teachings....the majority rejected, and only a few believed.


Well after the resurrection, the disciples did bring the Gospel to "all the world" and many did believe.




We take the great commission out into the nations, for the few that will believe. Just like Jesus did.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

John 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee

I Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?

I Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

I John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away

I John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen. "




Of course true, but aren't we fighting FROM victory, not for victory. All dominion was given to Jesus? Is it that hard to believe that the power of the Gospel will convert the World just as Daniel saw in the mountain covering the world?

Bing
Apr 16th 2007, 10:42 PM
The passage in Revelation DOES NOT mention medicine. Medicine is used for the healing of physical disease. However I do not believe that this is what is being healed in the passage in Revelation 22. It talks about the healing of the nations. To me if it was talking about healing of physical disease it would have said "the healing of men". The fact that it is talking about the healing of nations indicates to me that it is the long entrenched animosities between nations which is being repaired.

When it says that ever tear will be dried it tells me that there are still sore memories of this life which we take into eternity. The fact that our tears must be dried proves that we do still cry initially until God soothes us and then we will no longer cry. It will take some time for the horrors of this life to be entirely forgotten. I don't think that God will just wave a magic wand like in Men in Black MIB and all is forgotten. The memories of animosities between nations will still linger. My reading of this is that it is the tree of life which gradually heals the relationships and hurts between the nations. Who knows how many decades it will take before complete and unreserved fellowship will occur between the nations and all the hurts of the past are dealt with and forgotten into distant memory.

One thing that people seem to forget is that in the New Heavens and the New Earth we will still be men. We will have bodies and emotions just like Jesus had after he was resurrected. Glorified and eternal bodies of course but human nonetheless.

The joyous point though is that it we have the promise of these passages to show that there will be complete reconciliation between the nations and the complete healing of all sorrow, however I do not believe it will happen overnight like a magic wand but will take some time.

The passage in Ezek 47 is NOT set in the New Heavens and the New Earth. This is obvious because there is a temple described in Ezek 47 whereas in Rev 21 we learn that there IS NO temple in the New Heavens and the New Earth. The Ezek 47 passage is about the millenium where Jesus will rule over the nations. During the millenium the people will be normal physical human beings who will benefit from medicine. We know that they are physical human beings because at the end of the millenium when Satan is released there is a big battle where the huge army of men numbering as the sands of the sea are destroyed because of their rebellion.

The Ezek 47 passage shows that there will be an inexhaustible supply of food and medicine for the use of humans who live by the healing waters which come from the temple.

A very insightful and interesting post, sir!

I'm not a scholar of Greek (I'm guessing nobody here really is) but I'm wondering at how tightly we can translate that word "therapeia". It seems to me that (especially contextually) the word could be loosened up a little.

Strongs tells me this much:

From G2323; attendance (specifically medical, that is, cure); figuratively and collectively domestics: - healing, household.

It's the "attendance" part that sets the synonym wheel spinning in my brain. Nurses attend patients for the purpose of healing them. They minister to their patients and make sick and broken bodies whole.

Well, could we reasonably take the same principle and say that these trees are for the purpose of ministry and attendance to the nations in eternity? Revelation 22 seems to me to be talking about an eternal state, after the end of the Millennium (just a hunch - I could be wrong), and it would seem reasonable in an eternity characterised by Isaiah 9:7 reality for constant ministry and attendance to be featured, if not actual healing.

The point is aptly made that the word translates as 'household' two out of three times it appears outside of Revelation 22, and 'healing' once.

In fact, the word's root (therapōn) suggests even stronger a type of ministry or attendance not necessarily or specifically related to healing.

If any of you bods have greater insight into the classic languages, perhaps you could help a Bing out, and tell him whether or not his suppositions bear merit.

Basically, Bing thinks that the text could justifiably be translated, "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for ministering to the nations."

Oh yes, and Bing should also explain that the opening to 22:3 especially makes him think that this is an eternal reality, not a Millennial one. That's what he meant earlier by "especially contextually". Bing doesn't think that the curse is completely lifted in its entirety during the Millennium. So Bing does have an ulterior motive here.

Teke
Apr 17th 2007, 12:28 AM
A very insightful and interesting post, sir!

I'm not a scholar of Greek (I'm guessing nobody here really is) but I'm wondering at how tightly we can translate that word "therapeia". It seems to me that (especially contextually) the word could be loosened up a little.

Strongs tells me this much:

From G2323; attendance (specifically medical, that is, cure); figuratively and collectively domestics: - healing, household.

It's the "attendance" part that sets the synonym wheel spinning in my brain. Nurses attend patients for the purpose of healing them. They minister to their patients and make sick and broken bodies whole.

Well, could we reasonably take the same principle and say that these trees are for the purpose of ministry and attendance to the nations in eternity? Revelation 22 seems to me to be talking about an eternal state, after the end of the Millennium (just a hunch - I could be wrong), and it would seem reasonable in an eternity characterised by Isaiah 9:7 reality for constant ministry and attendance to be featured, if not actual healing.

The point is aptly made that the word translates as 'household' two out of three times it appears outside of Revelation 22, and 'healing' once.

In fact, the word's root (therapōn) suggests even stronger a type of ministry or attendance not necessarily or specifically related to healing.

If any of you bods have greater insight into the classic languages, perhaps you could help a Bing out, and tell him whether or not his suppositions bear merit.

Basically, Bing thinks that the text could justifiably be translated, "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for ministering to the nations."

Oh yes, and Bing should also explain that the opening to 22:3 especially makes him think that this is an eternal reality, not a Millennial one. That's what he meant earlier by "especially contextually". Bing doesn't think that the curse is completely lifted in its entirety during the Millennium. So Bing does have an ulterior motive here.

I believe myself and David Taylor (post 47) would agree with you, in that it is relating the liturgical church, which does and will exist forever eternal. Bear in mind the poetic style of scripture (simile's, metaphor's, and oxymorons):)

I don't believe there is any curse on the Church.

Bing
Apr 17th 2007, 09:46 AM
Now, I've looked and I've looked, but I don't believe I used the phrase "the nations means the liturgical church" or "the fruits of the trees mean the liturgical church" anywhere in my post. While I hate to disagree with somebody who has just tried very fervently and goodnaturedly to agree with me, I have to say: I disagree.

Revelation is an absolutely literal book, and I see no reason other than to assume that "nations" literally means commonwealths peopled and ruled by resurrected believers, any more than I would retreat from defining trees as trees or fruits as fruits. My question is one of translation, and whether 'ministering' is a suitable alternative translation for 'healing'.

But thanks :D

Teke
Apr 17th 2007, 02:07 PM
Now, I've looked and I've looked, but I don't believe I used the phrase "the nations means the liturgical church" or "the fruits of the trees mean the liturgical church" anywhere in my post. While I hate to disagree with somebody who has just tried very fervently and goodnaturedly to agree with me, I have to say: I disagree.

Revelation is an absolutely literal book, and I see no reason other than to assume that "nations" literally means commonwealths peopled and ruled by resurrected believers, any more than I would retreat from defining trees as trees or fruits as fruits. My question is one of translation, and whether 'ministering' is a suitable alternative translation for 'healing'.

But thanks :D

Revelation is a literal "book" alright. It along with Hebrews is the two liturgical books of the NT.
I believe you've missed my point. The Church ministers to the nations in the world. Christ is the tree of Life which brings healing. His Body (the Church) heals us (salve for the soul) in "ministering" to us. Recall the parable of the Samaritan.
It is more easily seen when relating the temple.

But for sure there is no other ministering in this world except by Christ and His Church Body.

There once was an ancient church, which in the center had a garden with a tree to depict this very idea.
Essentially this is the "recapitulation" taught by St Irenaeus. The return to the garden, or the restoration of humanity to it's original state. IOW the work of the Incarnation and Resurrection, Christ. Practically speaking that is.
That is fine if you disagree.:saint:

"...'ministering' is a suitable alternative translation for 'healing'." I'd agree it is.

ross3421
Apr 17th 2007, 04:29 PM
I think a better translation of medicine or healing in this context would be 'health'. The thought being that these leaves somehow enhance our experience of eternity.

The Greek in Rev. gives indication of a medical sort, and when we parrallel the verse to EZ the translation is "medicine" with the Hebrew indicating healing.

Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Again, we have been programmed that "eternity" is a certain way. However there will be a need for medicine which does stem out from the living waters for those "famlies" yes "families" which come forth from the original seed of the 144,000.



As has been already pointed out, there will be no sin and therefore no pain, suffering, disease etc. in the new heavens and earth,

Let's have a closer look.......Read the context of the following verse of those who are INSIDE New Jerusalem and thier reward. These verses speak to those of the Church not to those which live OUTSIDE this city. Who is prepared as a Bride? The Church.

Understanding who lives where is the key to understanding the need for medicine.

Re 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.Re 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.Re 21:3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.Re 21:4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Re 21:9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.Re 21:10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Who has been told to "overcome"? The Church.

Re 21:7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The church will inheirt all things, Israel the remnant was only promised the earth however can come into the city through thier gate if they keep the commandments.

Re 22:14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Mark

ross3421
Apr 17th 2007, 05:32 PM
The passage in Ezek 47 is NOT set in the New Heavens and the New Earth. This is obvious because there is a temple described in Ezek 47 whereas in Rev 21 we learn that there IS NO temple in the New Heavens and the New Earth.


Ez 43 speaks of a time which is for ever......... does then chapter 47 revert back to a supposed millenium.?

Eze 43:7And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Eze 43:9Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.


The Ezek 47 passage is about the millenium where Jesus will rule over the nations.

Will he not rule over nations in eternity?



During the millenium the people will be normal physical human beings who will benefit from medicine. We know that they are physical human beings because at the end of the millenium when Satan is released there is a big battle where the huge army of men numbering as the sands of the sea are destroyed because of their rebellion.


New heaven and new earth occur at the return of Christ, no millenium. Another BIG battle? Satan released again?



The Ezek 47 passage shows that there will be an inexhaustible supply of food and medicine for the use of humans who live by the healing waters which come from the temple.


Um....so does Rev.

Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I would not call either "humans" but rather humans in new bodies.


Mark

excubitor
Apr 18th 2007, 01:17 PM
A very insightful and interesting post, sir!

I'm not a scholar of Greek (I'm guessing nobody here really is) but I'm wondering at how tightly we can translate that word "therapeia". It seems to me that (especially contextually) the word could be loosened up a little.

Strongs tells me this much:

From G2323; attendance (specifically medical, that is, cure); figuratively and collectively domestics: - healing, household.

It's the "attendance" part that sets the synonym wheel spinning in my brain. Nurses attend patients for the purpose of healing them. They minister to their patients and make sick and broken bodies whole.

Well, could we reasonably take the same principle and say that these trees are for the purpose of ministry and attendance to the nations in eternity? Revelation 22 seems to me to be talking about an eternal state, after the end of the Millennium (just a hunch - I could be wrong), and it would seem reasonable in an eternity characterised by Isaiah 9:7 reality for constant ministry and attendance to be featured, if not actual healing.

The point is aptly made that the word translates as 'household' two out of three times it appears outside of Revelation 22, and 'healing' once.

In fact, the word's root (therapōn) suggests even stronger a type of ministry or attendance not necessarily or specifically related to healing.

If any of you bods have greater insight into the classic languages, perhaps you could help a Bing out, and tell him whether or not his suppositions bear merit.

Basically, Bing thinks that the text could justifiably be translated, "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for ministering to the nations."

Oh yes, and Bing should also explain that the opening to 22:3 especially makes him think that this is an eternal reality, not a Millennial one. That's what he meant earlier by "especially contextually". Bing doesn't think that the curse is completely lifted in its entirety during the Millennium. So Bing does have an ulterior motive here.

I'm glad you found my post insightful. Bing your post confused me. Why are you describing yourself in the third person? Very odd and unsettling way of writing.

In response to your post, may I ask. What is wrong with simply accepting the translation of medicine? I can understand how leaves can be used for medicine but I cannot understand how leaves can be used to minister to the nations or to people. If we want to broaden the word medicine to mean general ministering of the nations then we have to work out a way of making leaves the general agent for ministering to the nations. What do leaves represent in this model therefore. Are leaves typographical of priests or kings? And if the leaves are priests or kings then what is the fruit? And what is the broader typographical meaning of the trees and the river? It all starts to become absurd.

If we just take it literally it all makes sense. If we try to make it all imagery and symbolism it all becomes utterly meaningless.

excubitor
Apr 18th 2007, 01:47 PM
Ez 43 speaks of a time which is for ever......... does then chapter 47 revert back to a supposed millenium.?

Eze 43:7And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Eze 43:9Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.


What a strange brainwave you've generated here. We are all part of eternity right now aren't we? What are you talking about? Today marks the day which begins the rest of eternity. Ezek 43 is every bit a part of eternity as today is. I think what you mean is the Eternal kingdom of the New Heavens and New Earth which I have already shown DOES NOT contain a temple. How then can you say that Ezek 43 is part of the Eternal kingdom of the New Heavens and the New Earth when the ENTIRE CHAPTER is about the temple. Clearly this temple is a part of the millenial kingdom as I took the trouble to prove in my previous post. It amazes me how people will counter an argument without even attempting to explain or refute the original argument or provide an alternative explanation.

So come on then please explain how there happens to be a temple in Ezek 43 when there is no temple in the New Heavens and the New Earth IF as you say Ezek 43 is set in that everlasting kingdom.

If Jesus dwells in the midst of Israel during the millenium and promises to do so forever. Please explain how the arrival of the New Heavens and the New Earth prevents that. Of course it doesn't because it says that Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.



Will he not rule over nations in eternity?

Jesus rules over the nations during the millenium. How does this preclude him from also ruling over the nations for all eternity in the New Heavens and the New Earth?




New heaven and new earth occur at the return of Christ, no millenium. Another BIG battle? Satan released again?

How can you say there is no millenium when the book of Revelation clearly describes a 1000 year period of Christ rulling on the earth? Postmillenialism and Amillenialism utterly deny the scripture by denying that there will be a 1000 year period of Christ's reign on earth. Therefore I deny Postmillenialism and Amillenialism.

How does premillenialism require Satan to be bound twice? I admit that there are 2 big battles but they are also described unmistakeably in Rev 19-21. Armageddon is described clearly in Rev 19 with the newly arrived Christ on a white horse defeating the nations. Rev 20 describes the binding of Satan for 1000 years and AT THE END OF the 1000 years the releasing of Satan to deceive the nations of Gog and Magog which number as the sands of the sea which then fight against the Lord in a SECOND great battle. AFTER that is the great judgement day and AFTER that is the New Heavens and New Earth in Rev 21. It is really incredibly simple and straightforward. Just sit down and read Rev 19 straight through to Rev 21 and then get back to me and describe to me what it says. Don't give me the hashed version from a hundred mens ramblings of what they think it says in the context of the greater eschatological rhubarb rhubarb .......

Just tell me what it says in plain English. So plain in fact that I reckon my 8 year old could figure it out if I gave him an icecream for inducement.




Um....so does Rev.

Re 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I would not call either "humans" but rather humans in new bodies.


Mark

Again, just because mortal humans eat from trees to receive medicine for ailments during the millenium does not in any way preclude immortal humans from all nations assembling together to eat from eternal trees during the New Heavens and New Earth. In so doing they will heal age old animosities in the manner I described in the previous post.

In fact it is very likely that the millenial eating of medicine from the trees will be a forerunner and symbolic looking forward to the ultimate reconciliation of the nations in the eternal kingdom.

If they are the same trees and the same medicines of healing in Ezek 47 and Rev 22 then you still have not explained why the river which feeds the trees which grow the leaves which are the medicine which heal the people emanates from a temple in Ezek 47 and yet THERE IS NO temple in Rev 22.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Clearly therefore they must be completely different situations. Its simple and straightforward.

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2007, 02:04 PM
there is no temple in the New Heavens and the New Earth


Actually, there is a temple in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Revelation 21:22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

What this is saying, is

"I saw no temple [building made with hands] therein:"

The Lord and the Lamb are the temple made without hands, which are the temple of the New Heavens and the New Earth.







Postmillenialism and Amillenialism utterly deny the scripture by denying that there will be a 1000 year period of Christ's reign on earth. Therefore I deny Postmillenialism and Amillenialism.


You have the prerogative to deny anything you want excubitor.

However, saying that Post and Amill 'utterly deny the scripture' is going too far with it.

Post and Amill interpret the meaning of 'a thousand years' differently....they do not deny the scriptures referring to it.

In the same manner that the term 'thousand' is used symbolically dozens of times through the Bible to denote 'a long, undefined period of time'; likewise, Post and Amill make this same application of 'a thousand years' mentioned in Revelation 20.

Neither Post nor Amill are utterly denying the scriptures.

You could say those views are utterly denying the Premill interpretation of those scriptures; but not of the scriptures themselves.

That would be no different than Premill saying that it utterly denys the Post/Amill interpretation of those scriptures; but not of the scriptures themselves.

Neither of the three Mill-Views 'utterly deny' those scriptures....they just understand and interpret them differently than one-another.

Phrases like 'utterly deny scriptures' is devisive and antagonistic to others, and should be avoided by all viewpoints.

Bing
Apr 18th 2007, 10:56 PM
I'm glad you found my post insightful. Bing your post confused me. Why are you describing yourself in the third person? Very odd and unsettling way of writing.

In response to your post, may I ask. What is wrong with simply accepting the translation of medicine? I can understand how leaves can be used for medicine but I cannot understand how leaves can be used to minister to the nations or to people. If we want to broaden the word medicine to mean general ministering of the nations then we have to work out a way of making leaves the general agent for ministering to the nations. What do leaves represent in this model therefore. Are leaves typographical of priests or kings? And if the leaves are priests or kings then what is the fruit? And what is the broader typographical meaning of the trees and the river? It all starts to become absurd.

If we just take it literally it all makes sense. If we try to make it all imagery and symbolism it all becomes utterly meaningless.

My dear fellow, if Bing wrote in the second person, it would be even more unsettling, I assure you :lol:

Let's just pass it off as one of his idiosyncracies.

My ulterior motive for quibbling with the word "healing" is the implicit assumption that the nations at this stage require healing. I am toying with the idea that this passage is describing an eternal reality rather than a Millennial or pre-Millennial reality. If I am wrong, I am wrong.

I am also very intent at taking the passage literally. The leaves are leaves. They have veins and stalks and are probably chock full of chlorophyl. They are leaves. Obviously whatever translation we accept for therapeia, these literal leafy leaves have some sort of properties that marks them above the common-or-garden leaf.

Whether these leaves are literally used medicinally (ie: healing of the nations) or in some other service (ie: ministering to the nations), why, that is my purpose and intent to determine.

By the way, I heartily agree with your last sentence:
"If we just take it literally it all makes sense. If we try to make it all imagery and symbolism it all becomes utterly meaningless."

If I could, I would have it engraved on a copper plaque and placed somewhere.

Bing
Apr 18th 2007, 10:57 PM
You have the prerogative to deny anything you want excubitor.

David, I know you're one of the bad guys and I should be siding with my fellow Premillennialist here, but this has to be your driest, most amusing comment ever :lol:

Teke
Apr 18th 2007, 11:44 PM
My ulterior motive for quibbling with the word "healing" is the implicit assumption that the nations at this stage require healing. I am toying with the idea that this passage is describing an eternal reality rather than a Millennial or pre-Millennial reality. If I am wrong, I am wrong.



It should be clear, if taken literally, that it is describing an eternal reality within our present reality (time). The words " every month" should put it in the correct perspective.:)

Bing
Apr 19th 2007, 08:10 AM
It should be clear, if taken literally, that it is describing an eternal reality within our present reality (time). The words " every month" should put it in the correct perspective.:)
Bing disagrees. But that is Bing's prerogative. :)

David Taylor
Apr 19th 2007, 12:34 PM
David, I know you're one of the bad guys and I should be siding with my fellow Premillennialist here, but this has to be your driest, most amusing comment ever :lol:


I was reflecting on early 80s retro Devo at the time....

It was a 'saftey dance' moment...'you can dance if you want to....' thingy.

TEITZY
Apr 20th 2007, 05:09 AM
The Greek in Rev. gives indication of a medical sort, and when we parrallel the verse to EZ the translation is "medicine" with the Hebrew indicating healing.

Eze 47:12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Again, we have been programmed that "eternity" is a certain way. However there will be a need for medicine which does stem out from the living waters for those "famlies" yes "families" which come forth from the original seed of the 144,000.

Well the Ezekiel passage is talking about the earthly millennial kingdom and not the new heavens and earth. For example, Revelation 21:1 clearly says there will be "no more sea" in the new earth and yet Ezek 47:7-10 refers to a sea and fisherman. So in context, "medicine" or "healing" in the Ezekiel passage would involve physical healing since sin is still present and active in the millennial kingdom and there will still be people with physical non-glorified bodies.

Not sure where you get this idea about the families from the 144,000, in fact some might argue that since they are referred to as "virgins" who were "not defiled with women" that they would have no offspring at all! If you want to perpetuate sin and the curse for all eternity then that's your prerogative, but I think the scriptures clearly describe eternity as a sinless state free from pain, suffering, disease and death.


Let's have a closer look.......Read the context of the following verse of those who are INSIDE New Jerusalem and thier reward. These verses speak to those of the Church not to those which live OUTSIDE this city. Who is prepared as a Bride? The Church.

Understanding who lives where is the key to understanding the need for medicine.

Re 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.Re 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.Re 21:3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.Re 21:4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Re 21:9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.Re 21:10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Who has been told to "overcome"? The Church.

Re 21:7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The church will inheirt all things, Israel the remnant was only promised the earth however can come into the city through thier gate if they keep the commandments.

Re 22:14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Mark

Yes the new Jerusalem is described as the "bride" but I don't see any restrictions (Jew, Gentile or Church) regarding those who can enter or live there. I think all who are written in the "Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev 21:27) would qualify as the "Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9). As for those who overcome, John defines all such people as those who exercise saving faith (1 John 5:4) and certainly if we read Hebrews 11 we find plenty of OT saints who overcame the world by faith. In fact Heb 11:10 says that Abraham looked forward to "the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God." Of other OT saints who died in faith it is said that "they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. (Heb 11:16). Also in Rev 21:12 it says that the names of the 12 tribes of Israel were written on each gate.

So to limit the new Jerusalem as the sole abode of the Church is unwarranted and not supported by Scripture.

Cheers
Leigh

ross3421
Apr 20th 2007, 10:29 AM
For example, Revelation 21:1 clearly says there will be "no more sea" in the new earth and yet Ezek 47:7-10 refers to a sea and fisherman.


Re 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

OK, does "sea" represent a body of water above? One as yourself may think so but a closer look would prove that the term "sea" above is a reference to HELL and that in the previous chapter Hell was cast into the lake of fire.

Does the beast rise up from the sea or the abyss? I do not think that the beast rises up from a body of water do you? No, he rises up from Hell.

Re 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Also we see that there are inhabitors of the sea? Are they some civilization in the future which will live "under the sea...". No the devil come does into the abyss to gather his army (demonic spirits) which shall go forth upon the earth.

Re 12:12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So there will be a body of water "sea" in eternity. A river needs a sea...

Re 22:1And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.



Not sure where you get this idea about the families from the 144,000, in fact some might argue that since they are referred to as "virgins" who were "not defiled with women" that they would have no offspring at all!

Some may since they do not understand that the term "virgin" has nothing to do with sexual purity rather than not commiting fornication with the Whore. The 144,000 consists of males which we the only counted of Israel. This number precludes women and children.




If you want to perpetuate sin and the curse for all eternity then that's your prerogative, but I think the scriptures clearly describe eternity as a sinless state free from pain, suffering, disease and death.



Those who live in the land will choose to be obidiant. There will be no curse of sin but those still will have a choice to serve. You need to ask yourself if the following verse is in the millinium why is there even a plaque issues thought the period? I only thought the supposed rebellion happens at the end.?????? In addition, it states that there will be no more utter destruction however in your case there is?????

Zec 14:11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zec 14:18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague,


Again, life outside the city will be much different there will be buying and selling, pain, suffering, and possibly death. The difference is that God is directly reigning and in charge of life and death no mistakes of court sentences. Inside is much different where there will be no pain suffering death ect....as Rev 21:1 I believe is a direct reference to the city not those in the land and as they have a greater reward and have the keys to the kingdom and total inheridence this is where the church will reside. I believe we will be able to go in and out freely and have a free pass of all goods which are outside.

What we have in a new heaven and a new earth is a restart whereby God not Satan will be God of that world. Those which were faithful (born again) will pass on into the next life will sinless bodies living in the mansions which Christ is building today. The remnant of Israel will live outside per the promise and inherit the land upon generation. These generations will choose obidienence.

Scripture supports it, you just have to look a little deeper.

Mark

TEITZY
Apr 21st 2007, 02:49 AM
Re 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

OK, does "sea" represent a body of water above? One as yourself may think so but a closer look would prove that the term "sea" above is a reference to HELL and that in the previous chapter Hell was cast into the lake of fire.

Does the beast rise up from the sea or the abyss? I do not think that the beast rises up from a body of water do you? No, he rises up from Hell.

Re 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Also we see that there are inhabitors of the sea? Are they some civilization in the future which will live "under the sea...". No the devil come does into the abyss to gather his army (demonic spirits) which shall go forth upon the earth.

Re 12:12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So there will be a body of water "sea" in eternity. A river needs a sea...

Re 22:1And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Well most of the references to "sea" in Revelation (the word is used 22 times) actually refer to a literal sea and the context of 21:1 would strongly suggest a literal interpretation especially when it occurs in conjunction with "earth" (5:13, 7:1-3, 10:6, 8, 12:12, 14:7).

In the new earth it is clear that a river does not need a sea and the hydrological cycle used on this cursed earth is no longer in operation:

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

So the source of this river is not a sea but rather it comes directly from the throne of God.




Those who live in the land will choose to be obidiant. There will be no curse of sin but those still will have a choice to serve. You need to ask yourself if the following verse is in the millinium why is there even a plaque issues thought the period? I only thought the supposed rebellion happens at the end.?????? In addition, it states that there will be no more utter destruction however in your case there is?????

Zec 14:11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zec 14:18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague,


While all those who enter into the Millennium will be saved, they will still be sinners as will their offspring. If any nation or individual fails to worship Christ at Jerusalem they will be punished. So right through the Millennium there will be those who don't worship Christ and this will climax in one final rebellion at the end led by satan. As far as Jerusalem is concerned it will not be destroyed during the earthly reign of Christ, simple as that.



Again, life outside the city will be much different there will be buying and selling, pain, suffering, and possibly death. The difference is that God is directly reigning and in charge of life and death no mistakes of court sentences. Inside is much different where there will be no pain suffering death ect....as Rev 21:1 I believe is a direct reference to the city not those in the land and as they have a greater reward and have the keys to the kingdom and total inheridence this is where the church will reside. I believe we will be able to go in and out freely and have a free pass of all goods which are outside.

What we have in a new heaven and a new earth is a restart whereby God not Satan will be God of that world. Those which were faithful (born again) will pass on into the next life will sinless bodies living in the mansions which Christ is building today. The remnant of Israel will live outside per the promise and inherit the land upon generation. These generations will choose obidienence.

Scripture supports it, you just have to look a little deeper.


So what's it to be? Curse or no curse? You don't seem terribly sure of yourself. I think you're looking a little too "deep" and missing the obvious meaning of the text. By combining the Millennial kingdom with the new heavens and earth you are only creating greater confusion.


Just getting back to Rev 22:2 and the meaning of "healing", I just had another thought as I was responding to another thread. What was the purpose of the original "tree of life" in Eden? Was it for physical healing? Obviously not since both Adam and Eve were physically perfect and without sin and were therefore not subject to disease or death. It would seem best to suggest that the tree of life was for their enjoyment and general 'health' and that in some way this tree enhanced their experience of what was already a perfect habitation.

Cheers
Leigh

ross3421
Apr 21st 2007, 10:20 AM
Well most of the references to "sea" in Revelation (the word is used 22 times) actually refer to a literal sea and the context of 21:1 would strongly suggest a literal interpretation especially when it occurs in conjunction with "earth" (5:13, 7:1-3, 10:6, 8, 12:12, 14:7).


Rev. 5:13 should not be interpeted as a literal sea. These "creatures" are not singing fish ect...nor are they those which died in a literal sea but they are created beings. One day all created being which speak including those which reside in the abyss (sea) will give glory.

Re 5:13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Anyway most is not all, around 15 of the 22 or so do relate to a literal sea. And it is wrong to assume that in conjunction with earth that sea is literal as shown above.



the hydrological cycle used on this cursed earth is no longer in operation:


Where do you establish this?




Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

So the source of this river is not a sea but rather it comes directly from the throne of God.



The river starts from the throne but goes into a sea. Just as the example in EZ.

Eze 47:1Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

Eze 47:8Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.



While all those who enter into the Millennium will be saved, they will still be sinners as will their offspring. If any nation or individual fails to worship Christ at Jerusalem they will be punished. So right through the Millennium there will be those who don't worship Christ and this will climax in one final rebellion at the end led by satan. As far as Jerusalem is concerned it will not be destroyed during the earthly reign of Christ, simple as that.


No milleniium, now what?. These things you stated must occur in the new heaven and earth.




So what's it to be? Curse or no curse? You don't seem terribly sure of yourself. I think you're looking a little too "deep" and missing the obvious meaning of the text. By combining the Millennial kingdom with the new heavens and earth you are only creating greater confusion.


No, by seperating the supposed millinial kingdom fom the new heavens and earth most error. They are one in the same, those who see a millinial kingdom are actually seeing the things to occur in eternity.

No "curse" as God will rule supreme with no interference.



What was the purpose of the original "tree of life" in Eden? Was it for physical healing? Obviously not since both Adam and Eve were physically perfect and without sin and were therefore not subject to disease or death. It would seem best to suggest that the tree of life was for their enjoyment and general 'health' and that in some way this tree enhanced their experience of what was already a perfect habitation.


Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of life. The tree of life provides physical everlasting life.

Ge 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:



Mark

ross3421
Jul 20th 2009, 09:12 PM
Bumped up for the EZ 40-48 thread which is ongoing.